Weekend Open Thread
[guest post by Dana]
Well, it’s happened. I have totally lost track of what day of the week it is, as evidenced by the fact that I thought it was Thursday, and as such, just sat down to figure out the weekend open thread a few days ahead of time. Heh. I also can’t keep track of the time now, given that it remains light outside til all hours. So, like my baggy, ubiquitous sweat pants, I’ve lost any semblance of structure in my life. Anyway, feel free to share any news items you think might interest readers.
First news item
Paging Johnny Appleseed! Ten new varieties of apples rediscovered:
A dizzying 17,000 named apple varieties once decorated orchards in North America. Most of those strains are now extinct, and today, just 15 varieties account for 90 percent of the United States’ apple production. In the Pacific Northwest, however, a team of retirees has rediscovered ten apple varieties once thought to be lost forever.
The ten types of apples represent the most Washington state nonprofit the Lost Apple Project has ever found in a single season, reports Gillian Flaccus for the Associated Press. The newly revived varieties were collected last fall and identified by botanists at Oregon-based nonprofit the Temperate Orchard Conservancy (TOC).
Second news item
Horrible news from the Navajo Nation:
The Navajo Department of Health and Navajo Area Indian Health Service have announced 85 new cases of COVID-19 and three additional deaths Friday, April 17. The Navajo Nation is now at a total of 1,127 cases of COVID-19, with 426 confirmed cases in New Mexico, and 44 confirmed deaths.
The confirmed positive cases include the following counties:
Navajo County, AZ: 316
Apache County, AZ: 168
Coconino County, AZ: 203
McKinley County, NM: 235
San Juan County, NM: 153
Cibola County, NM: 13
San Juan County, UT: 14
Socorro County, NM: 13
Sandoval County, NM: 12
Further, Navajo Nation President Jonathan Nez said that in spite the there being three legislations that have been passed by Congress and signed into law by Trump, Indian country has yet to see any of the promised dollars.
“Money that was intended for U.S. citizens throughout the country, they’re getting it, the states are getting it, the counties are getting it … but the first citizens of this country are still at the bottom of the list,” he added.
Third news item
SMDH:
U.S. manufacturers shipped millions of dollars of face masks and other protective medical equipment to China in January and February with encouragement from the federal government, a Washington Post review of economic data and internal government documents has found. The move underscores the Trump administration’s failure to recognize and prepare for the growing pandemic threat.
In those two months, the value of protective masks and related items exported from the United States to China grew more than 1,000 percent compared with the same time last year — from $1.4 million to about $17.6 million, according to a Post analysis of customs categories which, according to research by Public Citizen, contain key PPE. Similarly, shipments of ventilators and protective garments jumped by triple digits.
Fourth news item
There’s got to be a way to fix this:
As unemployment numbers continue to soar and economic uncertainty looms due to the ongoing coronavirus pandemic, food banks across the United States are experiencing a surge in demand.
At the same time, however, a parallel narrative has emerged as new reports and social media posts detail farmers dumping or throwing out produce, dairy and even animals destined for slaughter. With restaurants and other big venues closed, many farmers and food processors have lost their largest buyers.
Now, many are questioning why these surpluses can’t be redirected to those in need. According to food industry experts, solving this problem isn’t impossible, but it will require an efficient plan and help from the government.
Fifth news item
Sen. Tom Cotton and Rep. Dan Crenshaw have introduced legislation that would allow Americans to sue China in federal court over the death and economic damage wrought by the “Wuhan Virus.”
“By silencing doctors and journalists who tried to warn the world about the coronavirus, the Chinese Communist Party allowed the virus to spread quickly around the globe,” Cotton (R-Ark.) said in a statement.
“Their decision to cover up the virus led to thousands of needless deaths and untold economic harm. It’s only appropriate that we hold the Chinese government accountable for the damage it has caused,” he added.
Crenshaw (R-Texas) said Americans “need to hold the Chinese government accountable for their malicious lies and coverup that allowed the coronavirus to spread across the world.”
“The communist regime expelled journalists, silenced whistleblowers, and withheld vital information that delayed the global response to the pandemic,” he added.
I’m continually listening to Chopin’s Prelude No 4 in E minor, Op 28 and Debussy’s Clair de lune, which are perennial favorites to so many, and I get that because they never grow old and their exquisite beauty is always fresh and new. For some new music, head over to NPR’s The Best 2020 Tiny Desk Contest Entries and give a listen.
Well, it’s Saturday night, so I better go get my good Sunday best (sweats) ready for tomorrow…
Have a good weekend, and stay healthy.
–Dana
Hello.
Dana (0feb77) — 4/18/2020 @ 6:10 pmI’ve been waiting for an open thread!
Earlier this week, my former colleagues on the T2K and Super-Kamiokande experiments announced a new and difficult measurement of the properties of neutrinos, that bears on fundamental questions in physics and cosmology.
This NYT article is long and well-written, but unfortunately is probably pay-walled:
Why the Big Bang Produced Something Instead of Nothing
Nature, where the scientific article appeared, has a nice (free) editorial about it.
The collaboration’s website also has a good explanation.
Somewhere, Andrei Sakharov is smiling.
Dave (1bb933) — 4/18/2020 @ 6:28 pmThe way the supply chain works for much of the food banks is that the product needs to actually reach the end retailer before it then gets transferred to the food bank, either from warehousing stocks, grocery stocks, restaurant stocks, or consumers. Since, a huge proportion of food is retailed through restaurants, that slack in demand feeds all the way back to the farmer. Most folks are not local to the farms, and also most wouldn’t know what to do with a whole chicken, whole cow, or what to do with a field full of beans. So, it’s not processed, and not shipped, etc, etc. We have such a complex and deep supply chain for any finished good, one small short circuit can have drastic impact, this is not a small one.
Heck, there are people that don’t know that bacon comes from cute piggies.
Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827) — 4/18/2020 @ 6:34 pmThe lost apples reminded me of a Texas thang…
People comb Texas for old farmsteads. Why? Rediscovering antique lost roses. There’s a cool place in Brenham, Texas where you can see them and buy some.
Ragspierre (d9bec9) — 4/18/2020 @ 6:35 pmSorry, Dave, I am discombobulated.
Also, I wanted to mention to readers about the paywall at The Washington Post: I have found that if you go to MSN’s portal, type in the title of the article from the Wapo that you want to read, more times than not, MSN will have it, and you can read it for free.
Dana (0feb77) — 4/18/2020 @ 6:40 pmKroger is making a point of sourcing some food from restaurant suppliers, given that those concerns are screwed in the face of their normal customers being closed or choked because of CV19.
The amount of food we waste is absolutely amazing. I understand why it happens, but it is a shame.
Ragspierre (d9bec9) — 4/18/2020 @ 6:41 pmWhere I live, there is a business that has a deli serving sandwiches and salads. They also sell local homemade food items (jams, jellies, salsas, pastas, candles, pastries, etc.) Finally, they work with our local farms and are the main provider to all of our local eateries, and a few outside of the city. Unfortunately, because of the incredible lack of demand by eateris, they are in danger of shutting down for good. I hate to see that happen because they are a successful family-owned business that has found a unique niche and have worked hard to establish themselves as reliable suppliers of food items in bulk amounts. Oh, you can also go online and put in an orders of produce, and fully prepared meals to heat up during the week.
Dana (0feb77) — 4/18/2020 @ 6:44 pmIf you know someone who owes you money, go to their house now. They should be home.
Colonel Haiku (2601c0) — 4/18/2020 @ 6:46 pm7… that’s the sort of bad outcome that will be all too frequent, unfortunately.
Colonel Haiku (2601c0) — 4/18/2020 @ 6:51 pmDave @ 2,
Is that the correct link? I can get in and see two paragraphs, and then the author’s bio is there, followed by comments link. I have articles left, so it’s not behind the paywall…
Dana (0feb77) — 4/18/2020 @ 6:56 pmDave, thank you, and congratulations to them. I think I understood what they were saying.😁
Kishnevi (4777d8) — 4/18/2020 @ 6:58 pmTwo things. One, I’m getting impatient about reopening things, but it looks like it’ll be another month. According to the lastest UW modeling, May 18th could be Reopening Day.
Paul Montagu (0073cc) — 4/18/2020 @ 7:24 pmTwo, I don’t pay a lot of attention to polls, but the ones I’ ve been watching are the head-to-head matchups between Trump and Biden. On a national level, Biden is up by 5.5% on average, but I’m more interested in the head-to-head matchups in battleground states, especially in the polling after March 30th. Why that date? Because that’s the day when more Americans were killed by this virus than in the 9/11 terrorist attacks. The problem is that there isn’t much data yet, but the data that exists is interesting.
In Florida, Biden jumped to plus 6% after March 30th, while Trump was up by 3% and 2% in two earlier March polls. A Biden win in Florida should seal the deal for him. I can’t glean anything from the North Carolina polls. A Republican-leaning survey had Trump up 7% and a Democrat-leaning survey had Biden up 1%. In Arizona, Biden jumped to a 9-point lead. But it’s early and polls can change on a dime.
The link to the NYT article brings up the full article for me. I have an electronic sub, but the URL looks like the correct one for the article.
Dave (1bb933) — 4/18/2020 @ 7:38 pmIn Florida, Biden jumped to plus 6% after March 30th
Some polls were giving that much of a lead for Nelson over Scott in October 2018. So, it mrans even less than you think. In 2018 the Florida GOP showed its GOTV effort could outdo the best efforts of the Democrats. Trump will win Florida, possibly a nail biter. (And there won’t be any statewide contest this year, so no chance of a black candidate motivating the black vote like Gillum did.)
Kishnevi (4777d8) — 4/18/2020 @ 7:45 pmCan’t argue, Kish, but that jump after April 1st was…something. Same with Arizona. If there’s that much of a change in a border state like AZ, it makes me wonder how much TX is in play. Cruz didn’t beat Beto by much.
Paul Montagu (0073cc) — 4/18/2020 @ 8:22 pmCruz was beating Beto handily until Trump campaigned for Cruz:
Plus turnout was big, far more than either side expected.
DRJ (15874d) — 4/18/2020 @ 9:24 pmTrump has no coat-tails. Even if he
nk (1d9030) — 4/18/2020 @ 10:04 pmwinsbeats Biden in November, there will be a Democrat House and Senate. Then watch him tweet frenziedly about Nasty this and Crazy that and Do-nothing whoever, while signing everything they send to him.https://www.foxnews.com/us/organizer-of-nj-coronavirus-stay-at-home-protest-hit-with-criminal-violation
Exercising your constitutional rights is a jailable offense in the communist state of NJ.
NJRob (4d595c) — 4/18/2020 @ 10:48 pmThe Navajo nation has not followed the same protocols ordered within the rest of the three states that contain it. They do not feel those state orders apply to them. They are now ordering a curfew and considering a lockdown,
Kevin M (ab1c11) — 4/18/2020 @ 11:15 pmThis NYT article is long and well-written, but unfortunately is probably pay-walled
Luckily I subscribe. Interesting experiment, and I’d love to hear the theories about WHY there is a difference in the neutrino oscillations. But how do we know it isn’t anti-matter that prevailed?
Kevin M (ab1c11) — 4/18/2020 @ 11:29 pmWith restaurants and other big venues closed, many farmers and food processors have lost their largest buyers. Some of this has been redirected to grocers, who are experiencing unprecedented demand. Restaurants may not be serving much, but the overall rate of eating is pretty constant.
Kevin M (ab1c11) — 4/18/2020 @ 11:31 pmTrump advise stephen moore says anti-government demonstrators in michigan are like rosa parks! Really? I didn’t see gov. whitmere turn water hoses on the neo-nazis or attack the confederate flag wavers with attack dogs. Neither did I see their churches burned with the pastors brand new mercedes benz in front or one of their churches blown up with four little girls inside.
asset (774dd4) — 4/19/2020 @ 12:06 amNo rights are absolute.
You will be jailed for yelling fire in a crowded theater, standing up and delivering a political speech in a courtroom during a trial, holding a protest march on the tarmac of Newark airport, sacrificing virgins to your god(s), or bringing a firearm into a Trump cult rally.
Most grown-ups understand this.
Dave (1bb933) — 4/19/2020 @ 12:21 amThat is an excellent question.
There is an easy, but unilluminating answer. In the (extended) Standard Model, the mixing between neutrinos can be described by a 3×3 complex (unitary) matrix called the Pontecorvo–Maki–Nakagawa–Sakata matrix. This matrix can be parameterized in terms of four angles. One of the four (the one that the experiment just measured for the first time) determines whether there is a difference between neutrinos and anti-neutrinos (the other three angles have to all be non-zero too, but that has already been verified).
As I said, not very illuminating. That is more like “how” than “why”.
In the Standard Model, those four angles are just fundamental parameters of nature. There are a total of about 20 such parameters that together allow the Standard Model to describe everything that happens in elementary particle interactions.
But a more complete theory (in principle) should be able to predict the values in that matrix based on some symmetry principle and/or the dynamics (interactions) of the theory at energies too high for us to study today (i.e. the energies typical of the very early universe when matter was winning the battle against anti-matter).
Although I don’t think the NYT article mentions it, there were three conditions necessary for Sakharov’s idea to work: 1) CP violation, 2) proton decay, and 3) departure from thermal equilibrium in the early universe.
#1 is what the neutrino experiment in Japan just measured for the first time. #3 is easy. But #2 is actually the reason these large underground water detectors were built in the first place, and it still hasn’t been observed. The experiment I did my PhD on was the first such experiment, and based on the most favored (because it was the simplest possible) Grand Unified Theory at the time, we should have seen dozens of proton decays in the first few months. But now, almost 40 years later, even the much larger experiment in Japan (which has been running since 1997) has still found no evidence for proton decay. The current limits on the lifetime of the proton are larger than 10^33 or 10^34 years, which is very difficult for the theorists to explain.
The discovery of neutrino oscillations happened because neutrino interactions are a BACKGROUND for proton decay. But then we noticed that some of the background wasn’t occurring at the expected rate. And ultimately the “noise” turned out (so far) to be much more interesting than the (still missing) signal…
“Matter” is the stuff that prevailed, just by definition.
Dave (1bb933) — 4/19/2020 @ 12:51 amYou Can’t Always Get What You Want
Dave (1bb933) — 4/19/2020 @ 2:09 amAmericans need to get back to work to save ourselves from Pelosi and the never trump circus.
mg (8cbc69) — 4/19/2020 @ 3:09 amExercising your constitutional rights is a jailable offense in the communist state of NJ.
No, violating a lawful order by civil authorities is an offense. There’s no penalty until AFTER a trial, and several steps in which the matter may be resolved without penalty.
But you’ve been told all that to the point where there’s no doubt you know it. Therefore, we can surmise that you’re just waving your bloody shirt for attention.
It’s pitiful and actually UN-patriotic.
Ragspierre (d9bec9) — 4/19/2020 @ 3:11 amI love a circus…!!!
Ragspierre (d9bec9) — 4/19/2020 @ 3:18 amhttps://www.nationalreview.com/2020/04/recess-appointments-president-trump-empty-threat-congressional-adjournment/
Poor Thug in the Oval Office. He can’t seem to control his need to show his azz in the most public ways.
Ragspierre (d9bec9) — 4/19/2020 @ 3:50 amThose malaria drugs seem to work suspiciously well in unscientific studies, like if a doctor gives a couple dozen people the drug and decides it’s a miracle cure that worked 100% of the time. So far, scientific studies are showing it has an underwhelming effect. In my opinion, this makes those promoting the drugs come across as suckers or crooks.
Protests all over the country (aka Liberate Michigan, etc) seem to be motivated by a series of suspicious astroturf websites and a few of the same agitators who were involved with that sort of thing in 2016 (like Alex Jones). They had some here in Austin that Alex Jones was all over, which is obviously irrational as Texas is saying it’s going to reopen in a few weeks. So what are the protestors running around with rifles for? They don’t even know what they want, but they sure are mad about it.
Domestic violence is a really big problem these days, as some people cooped up at home are taking their stress out in the wrong way. A few hours ago we had a police officer killed and two more shot on a domestic violence and possible ambush call south of Austin.
We need leadership, not stunts. That crap with the ‘big fat checks with my name on it’ was a stunt. Bashing Drudge for posting wrong-think, smearing that Captain, tweeting call caps calls to liberate states with democrat governments, picking fights with ventilator makers, saying we’d have 15 cases then none, bragging if only 100k are killed, those are stunts.
Dustin (c56600) — 4/19/2020 @ 4:57 amNumbers are all over the place, and they still don;t have any good estimates, but this must be worse than the flu. It’s devastating nursing homes.
Here is a very good article, that gets just about every point you’d expect: (every point you’d expect, not necessarily every point that could be made.
I don’t think it has the three different worldwide death totals! I’ll find that again.)
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/17/us/coronavirus-death-rate.html
By the way there are 3 different death tolls – that’s the numerator – that are given, that of the world Health Organization being the lowest (The WHO says it only uses verified cases and doesn’t edit numbers submitted by governts)
Sammy Finkelman (3bf6ea) — 4/19/2020 @ 5:12 am17. nk (1d9030) — 4/18/2020 @ 10:04 pm
He has negative coattails, except when his endorsement is directed almost exclusively to his supporters.
(It may work in a Republican primary, especially where his message gets out more to known supporters. Not in a general election.)
Bill Clinton also has/had negative coattails, but he was very strategic about trying to prevent people from realizing that. Bill Clinton knew he was trying to fool people.
Sammy Finkelman (3bf6ea) — 4/19/2020 @ 5:28 amTrump is going pretty far in trying to appease
the TalibanPakistan’s rogue military intelligence agency in Afghanistan.https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/17/world/asia/afghanistan-cia-peace-treaty.html
Sammy Finkelman (3bf6ea) — 4/19/2020 @ 5:38 amhttps://www.foxnews.com/entertainment/broadway-star-nick-cordero-faces-leg-amputation-due-to-coronavirus-wife-says
That’s a shame…and strange. I hope he makes it.
Ragspierre (d9bec9) — 4/19/2020 @ 6:06 amThose are all strawmen that have nothing to do with the case at hand. Jailing a political protester is something my leftist governor has in common with his fellow socialist thugs from Cuba and Venezuela.
NJRob (4d595c) — 4/19/2020 @ 6:13 amThose are all strawmen that have nothing to do with the case at hand. Jailing a political protester is something my leftist governor has in common with his fellow socialist thugs from Cuba and Venezuela.
You don’t even know what a straw man fallacy is. Learn to apply it properly before show your ignorance further.
The examples given were directly on point. You are reverting to lying again.
Nobody has been “jailed”. New Jersey is nothing remotely like Cuba or Venezuela, and you are a pathetic, lying attention seeker.
Ragspierre (d9bec9) — 4/19/2020 @ 6:21 amYes comrade. We know the government was justified is arresting Rosa Parks and MLK. But they get a trial you say. That makes it right.
NJRob (4d595c) — 4/19/2020 @ 6:28 amYes comrade. We know the government was justified is arresting Rosa Parks and MLK. But they get a trial you say. That makes it right.
No, liar. BOTH Parks and King were practicing real civil disobedience. This INSISTS the law be applied to the person practicing it in order to openly test the law. To practice authentic civil disobedience is to subject yourself to the law.
Maybe Pagan was, too. Super. He’ll get his chance to protest that the law is wrong, and we’ll see how that goes. In the case of Parks and King, they eventually had enough public support that the laws were changed.
IF you had the convictions you PRETEND, you’d get out and openly defy the law. But you prefer to lie about all this on a blog thread.
Ragspierre (d9bec9) — 4/19/2020 @ 6:48 amNo, them getting a fair trial and being released makes the premise of your argument false. Or maybe you don’t know what Cuba and Venezuela are like, so you are just making the argument in ignorance. Either willful, or benign, doesn’t matter, wrong is what you are.
Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827) — 4/19/2020 @ 6:52 amWe know the government was justified is arresting Rosa Parks and MLK. But they get a trial you say. That makes it right.
THAT, btw, is a classic straw man fallacy. There’s a formula you should learn.
Ragspierre (d9bec9) — 4/19/2020 @ 6:54 amHydroxychloroquine most likely acts as something that can stop virus particles from infecting cells. It was first notes because doctors in China, in Wuhan, I think, noticed that patients who had lupus or something they were taking (was it chloroquine?) didn’t come down with this, or came down much less.
All somebody has to do to see if this does something significant is get medical records from one of those nursing homes where half the population seems to have been infected, and see if there is a lot less death or severe cases in people taking hydroxychloroquine and/or chloroquine. There ought ti eb anough to tell, if not to a 95% probability, tn to a 65% probability.
Sammy Finkelman (3bf6ea) — 4/19/2020 @ 7:00 amHydroxychloroquine has shown zero benefits in humans against CV-19. None, nada, zilch, period.
A single invivo test with Green Monkey liver cells is nice, but invivo is not invitro, green monkey’s are not humans, liver is not lung. So not human, not in the host, and not in the target organ…
…shown zero effectiveness in humans, none, nada, zilch.
Also, zero effective conferred treatment for lupus patients. Zero documented instances, none, nada, zilch.
Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827) — 4/19/2020 @ 7:08 amRags, you’re nothing if not predictable. Keep licking those boots comrade.
NJRob (4d595c) — 4/19/2020 @ 7:32 amJames Earl Ray was an avid reader of the news, a politics junkie, and he hinted at stupid conspiracy theories based on basically nothing, hoping to muddy waters instead of owning up to what he did. He and many like him opposed MLK and the civil rights movement because they saw it as an intrusion in their absolute freedom to discriminate and control people on the basis of their race.
There’s a legitimate argument to be made about whether the quarantine justifies the costs, but the idiots marching in capitols with rifles to LIBERATE MICHIGAN while cheering David Duke and Alex Jones should not compare themselves to people who risked or even gave their lives opposing something that was rooted in hatred. The quarantine isn’t rooted in something like that at all.
Sammy, if it did, we would know it by now. Too many people are desperate to find a cure.
You have to add in that these doctors live in a repressive regime where they don’t know what’s going on. Unless you need 100 urns per death in China, some horrible lying is going on over there. The one common factor with chloroquine is everyone promoting its amazing power are coming from a position of low information or a charlatan of some kind.
Dustin (c56600) — 4/19/2020 @ 7:32 amhttps://hotair.com/archives/jazz-shaw/2020/04/19/hong-kong-say-great-time-arrest-democracy-advocates/
Oh look. More unlawful protesters. But they were only arrested so it’s all good. They’ll have a trial and everything.
P.S. Another group with no constitutional rights apparently.
NJRob (4d595c) — 4/19/2020 @ 7:35 amAnd obviously people from Hong Kong aren’t Americans and don’t have our constitutional rights. The comparison is that NJ residents don’t either apparently. I bet you missed that.
NJRob (4d595c) — 4/19/2020 @ 7:37 amYou are just reduced to a troll.
Ragspierre (d9bec9) — 4/19/2020 @ 7:40 amI saw that story yesterday on a different website. China’s handling of this matter has been utterly cynical and evil. They definitely aren’t letting the crisis go to waste.
A brutal Chinese one-party government with torture, concentration camps, that murders its people, arrested a ton of lawmakers and activists in order to shut down a major effort. Is that what happened in New Jersey?
We can find similarities, sure. Any arrest of someone presumed innocent (meaning basically all arrestees) implicates freedom and civil rights. But the quarantine is not rooted in ‘trial run socialism’ or whatever those astroturf websites and russian facebook bots are telling us. Until that analysis is fair it’s not possible to distinguish good from evil. You wind up seeing the ideology of MLK as the same as the man who murdered him. It’s irrational and frankly serves only to harm our society.
Dustin (c56600) — 4/19/2020 @ 7:43 amI don’t think he’s a troll so much as I think he genuinely has bought into the idea that civil rights are being destroyed, and therefore those who are cool with it are not worth a lot of respect. The problem is that civil rights aren’t being destroyed and there’s no way to overcome the flood of BS convincing people otherwise. We’re witnessing the next iteration of the campaign that got Trump elected in the first place. There are some very smart, very sick people planning this thing out.
Dustin (c56600) — 4/19/2020 @ 7:48 amMilton Friedman observed that there is no virtue more overrated than sincerity.
Rob has been schooled on this stuff, and not just by me. I don’t believe he’s sincere or ignorant now. One can be willfully stupid.
Ragspierre (d9bec9) — 4/19/2020 @ 7:56 amThe government is asserting that your right to free assembly is reasonably limited by the need to stop the spread of CV-19. The need is debatable, and the implementation is debatable but what’s not debatable is that stopping the spread of disease is an area where US governments have taken similar steps in the past and that we have processes in place to resolve the dispute about what is and is not reasonable. Your assertion that this is similar to the totalitarian regimes of Cuba and Venezuela is silly.
Time123 (7cca75) — 4/19/2020 @ 8:19 amSay rather they don’t have a legal mechanism to protect the rights that were endowed to them by their creator.
Time123 (7cca75) — 4/19/2020 @ 8:21 amBiting my tongue about pots and kettles. There is an argument that several governors have overreached (and there’s a real concern that governmental overreach a quarantine will likely end before restrictions can be tested in court), but they have the authority under Supreme Court case law and federal and state statute to quarantine and isolate, and that includes banning public gatherings.
New Jersey is #2 in cases per million and deaths per million.
Paul Montagu (0073cc) — 4/19/2020 @ 8:47 amAnd I call bullspit on it. They allow you to stand outside of a Costco for an hour, but not go to a park or protest their unconstitutional actions. They allow you to sit outside a fast food place in your car, but not in a church parking lot. It’s arbitrary and capricious as well as downright insulting. But we allow it in the name of “saving lives.”
Giving up your rights and freedoms to socialists for limited utility. See how long that keeps you alive without your freedoms or your job.
NJRob (4d595c) — 4/19/2020 @ 9:00 amNew Jersey is nothing remotely like Cuba or Venezuela, and you are a pathetic, lying attention seeker.
You forget teh desaparecidos out in teh Pine Barrens…
Colonel Haiku (2601c0) — 4/19/2020 @ 9:03 amNo rights are absolute.
No, but the right to peaceably assemble and petition the government for a redress of grievances is pretty fundamental. They are not IN a theater, or a courtroom, or on a tarmac, or carrying guns. They are exercising a basic constitutional right in a peaceable manner, interfering with nothing except the order they are protesting, and that only by civil disobedience.
They have, near as I can tell, not even been ordered to disburse.
The states have exercised more civil authority in this matter than has been used in living memory. I think you’d have to go back to Reconstruction to find a more extreme use. That it has been tolerated up to now is indicative of the the people’s understanding of the crisis, but people are now being squeezed out of things they have built up over a lifetime and they are NOT going to go down without a fight. The worse the economic pressure gets, the more the protests will grow.
While it may be difficult to look at this outside of the Trumpian dynamic, I think one should. The states have at most a month to open up, or they may lose control.
As I said the other day, if this escalates I see states using tear gas on otherwise peaceful protestors. At which point the protests grow exponentially.
Kevin M (ab1c11) — 4/19/2020 @ 9:04 am“A strict observance of the written law is doubtless one of the high duties of a good citizen, but it is not the highest. The laws of necessity, of self-preservation, of saving our country when in danger, are of higher obligation. To lose our country by a scrupulous adherence to the written law, would be to lose the law itself, with life, liberty, property and all those who are enjoying them with us; thus absurdly sacrificing the ends to the means.”
Dave (1bb933) — 4/19/2020 @ 9:04 am– Thomas Jefferson, noted socialist thug
Oh, and the abortion right DOES seem to be absolute. It says so RIGHT THERE in the Constitution. Someplace.
Kevin M (ab1c11) — 4/19/2020 @ 9:05 am“Freedom is never more than one generation away from extinction. We didn’t pass it to our children in the bloodstream. It must be fought for, protected, and handed on for them to do the same, or one day we will spend our sunset years telling our children and our children’s children what it was once like in the United States where men were free.”
Ronald Reagan
NJRob (4d595c) — 4/19/2020 @ 9:05 amI love a circus…!!!
Said every clown ever…
Colonel Haiku (2601c0) — 4/19/2020 @ 9:05 amPlease specify the action that was unconstitutional, and specify how.
Specify where you can’t sit outside a church in your car, the location where this was banned.
Actually, since every single thing you sight is either not happening, or you don’t understand, it’s not really arbitrary or capricious.
Who are the socialists, be specific. Who in position of authority is not being a socialist. BE SPECIFIC.
Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827) — 4/19/2020 @ 9:07 amcite
Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827) — 4/19/2020 @ 9:08 am“The Constitution is not a suicide pact.”
A. Lincoln, noted taker of property
Kevin M (ab1c11) — 4/19/2020 @ 9:08 amSpecify where you can’t sit outside a church in your car, the location where this was banned.
This has been repeatedly cited here. Sorry if you missed it all.
Kevin M (ab1c11) — 4/19/2020 @ 9:09 amI think you’d have to go back to Reconstruction to find a more extreme use.
Um, ok, maybe the Japanese relocation.
Kevin M (ab1c11) — 4/19/2020 @ 9:11 amPeople will be able to argue that, but I expect the decision on if your assertion is right or not will depend on the specifics. I expect governments that were arbitrary and capricious to lose their cases.
Time123 (7cca75) — 4/19/2020 @ 9:11 am“Matter” is the stuff that prevailed, just by definition.
Of course. I was just pulling your leg. You probably knew that.
Kevin M (ab1c11) — 4/19/2020 @ 9:12 amI think this is (currently) less extreme than cordoning protesters away from the president / other public speakers. In this case there’s at least a reason.
Time123 (7cca75) — 4/19/2020 @ 9:15 amThey are placing themselves and others (for instance the doctors and nurses that will have to treat them, and anyone they infect) at risk of mortal harm.
Dave (1bb933) — 4/19/2020 @ 9:17 amI’ve noticed a pretty large number of folks strapped with their AR or AK, for some reason. I don’t think it’s a helpful look, regardless of the point they’re making. But I’m a CCDW advocate, at this moment a Sig P365XL, the rifle is to make them feel kewl.
No, You could go back to the LA Riots, Vietnam era (both specifically for the war or civil rights), or WWII, or the Great Depression, or the Spanish Flu… There are still people living from all of those, some of us were quite young in 67 or 68 civil rights and vietnam protests, but the 92 LA riots are pretty modern.
Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827) — 4/19/2020 @ 9:18 amI’ve seen the claim, over and over, I’ve not seen the citation of people being banned from sitting in their cars. This was another opportunity for someone to specifically cite the instance, the lack of it is noted.
Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827) — 4/19/2020 @ 9:21 amI clicked NJRob’s link at 18. Those skinhead scumbags are not defending anybody’s rights. They’re agitating for their Fuhrer. Disorderly conduct? They should be charged with conspiracy to commit murder.
nk (9651fb) — 4/19/2020 @ 9:24 amCol Klink, here you go. It’s a legitimate question if this ban is being implemented in the least restrictive way possible wrt to religious observance. I’m not sure who is right at this point. As I said up thread it will depend on the specifics of the case.
https://www.whas11.com/article/news/health/coronavirus/kentucky-state-police-take-down-license-plates-of-people-who-attended-in-person-church-services/417-45f001ac-aebe-441a-a759-5b66b430c0ab
https://wreg.com/news/coronavirus/mississippi-churchgoers-fined-500-while-attending-drive-in-service/
Time123 (53ef45) — 4/19/2020 @ 9:27 amDave,
My 66yo mind is not nearly as agile as my 20yo mind was, but the PMNS matrix as described by Wikipedia suggests that your “4th” angle is trivial. Are you saying that we know believe it is not, as the result of this experiment?
Kevin M (ab1c11) — 4/19/2020 @ 9:31 amOne possibility might be to waive the social distancing orders for anyone who agrees that they, and any immediate relatives (say, two generations junior or senior), will be denied medical care of any kind (for virus itself, and any other condition) until the orders are completely lifted.
But it would be inhumane to deny medical care to the mentally deficient.
Dave (1bb933) — 4/19/2020 @ 9:31 amIf there is just one reason that conservatives who don’t like President Trump should vote for him anyway, this is it:
District Court Judge John Broomes was appointed on September 7, 2017, and confirmed by the Senate on April 12, 2018. Many of the Usual Suspects voted against cloture on Mr Broomes nomination, but cloture was invoked 74-24, and the nomination then approved on a voice vote.
The Dana in Kentucky (a2adc1) — 4/19/2020 @ 9:33 amThey are placing themselves and others (for instance the doctors and nurses that will have to treat them, and anyone they infect) at risk of mortal harm.
That harm is merely notional, and at least twice attenuated. It is so notional that no one would have standing to sue the protesters to stop it.
Kevin M (ab1c11) — 4/19/2020 @ 9:36 amThe fourth angle is delta_CP. Where does the article say it’s trivial?
Dave (1bb933) — 4/19/2020 @ 9:36 amMr 123 wrote:
The Supreme Court ruled, in ex parte Endo, that the government could not just lock up loyal Americans simply because they were of Japanese descent, even though we were at war with Japan, and that the Nisei who we had thrown into concentration camps had to be freed.
Of course, the ruling was handed down on December 18, 1944, after 120,000 of them had been imprisoned for almost three years.
Their constitutional rights had been vindicated, but they had lost nearly three years of their lives, much of their property, their friends, and in some cases their families. Many didn’t leave the camps for several months because, by then, they had nowhere else to go. But, hey, I’m sure many Americans thought that a ‘reasonable limitation,’ right?
The Dana in Kentucky (a2adc1) — 4/19/2020 @ 9:42 amOne possibility might be to waive the social distancing orders for anyone…
The helmet law argument. But riding without a helmet presents a clear and immediate danger. Protesting an order to stay in your house does not — any danger of venturing out is based upon a series of largely unproveable assumptions, and the danger that are assumed to produce a threat of harm to others are not certain consequences even of those assumptions.
You could probably find a way to ban a protest of library fines, if you tried hard enough.
Kevin M (ab1c11) — 4/19/2020 @ 9:42 amStanding for a lawsuit requires (as I understand it) showing individualized harm. That’s not what we’re talking about here.
We’re talking about a compelling interest of the government limiting the spread of a deadly and highly contagious disease, and in keeping the health care system functional so it can provide care to those who need it.
Dave (1bb933) — 4/19/2020 @ 9:44 amThank you, not they are NOT banning folks from sitting in their car to attend services. Since I assumed this was the one being cited. All over Kentucky, pastor’s are doing drive-in services, in fact that is exactly what the Governor has asked for. Packing the church, as happened in your citation, even having people coming from other states to pack the church, pretty much defines not social distancing. What actually happened, as I’ve posted at least 10 times, they got a letter from the health department that said they’re not practicing social distancing and should quarantine. Not must, not jailed, not held at gunpoint…
So, the example NJRob used, was invalid on its face, as there is no place where that has been shown for this to have actually happened. It’s barely even thought through enough to be a straw man or even gaslighting.
Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827) — 4/19/2020 @ 9:47 amI was in a grocery recently. While the store employees were wearing (non-M95) masks and gloves, and made some effort to limit occupancy, many (most) of the shoppers wore no protective items, and did not always observe any distancing rule. The aisles of the store had not been widened to allow that.
So, at least in a grocery, the distancing and protective orders have not been enforced to the letter.
Why is a first amendment right less important that shopping in a grocery store?
Kevin M (ab1c11) — 4/19/2020 @ 9:48 amMr M wrote:
The
house arrestself-quarantine orders issued by several governors — Reichsstatthalter Andy Beshear (NSDAP-KY) for one — presume infection, presume guilt, without any testing or investigation.We have so many attorneys here, and they would all balk at the notion of ending the presumption of innocence, but many here seem to support the presumption of infection. We have many readers here who would never accept the notion that owning a firearm is somehow a presumption that it will be used to murder someone else, yet so many here are presuming that being out in public constitutes an active danger to others.
The Dana in Kentucky (a2adc1) — 4/19/2020 @ 9:48 am*N-95
Kevin M (ab1c11) — 4/19/2020 @ 9:49 amYes, but they were wrong because there was no evidence to indicate that Japanese-Americans were disloyal. It was based solely on racial prejudice.
There is ample evidence that groups of people result in large numbers of avoidable infections, however, so your comparison is pretty dumb.
Dave (1bb933) — 4/19/2020 @ 9:51 amHow in the blue-eyed blazes an order by A federal court equates to a reason to support your cult hero will always remain a deep mystery.
Are there cases where authorities have overreached? Who has made the case their are not such cases?
I have expressly stated that I would be among the lawyers who would fight any such case. But we have waltzed around this question enough times so that it is apparent that ANY restriction is opposed…and lied about…by various people here.
Ragspierre (d9bec9) — 4/19/2020 @ 9:51 amhttps://newschannel9.com/news/local/chattanooga-church-sues-city-for-banning-drive-in-services
NJRob (4d595c) — 4/19/2020 @ 9:54 amWe’re talking about a compelling interest of the government limiting the spread of a deadly and highly contagious disease, and in keeping the health care system functional so it can provide care to those who need it.
No, we are talking about an order the state ASSERTS is necessary to that end, but waives in some circumstances, and will NOT waive when it comes to a first amendment right.
Kevin M (ab1c11) — 4/19/2020 @ 9:54 amWhy is a first amendment right less important that shopping in a grocery store?
Now THERE is a straw man fallacy.
NOOOOOOOOOOooooobody has made any such assertion, or even hinted at it. But first among our natural rights is the right to LIFE.
Food is pretty essential to maintaining that right. What an amazingly stupid question!
Ragspierre (d9bec9) — 4/19/2020 @ 9:55 amThis is completely different than the helmet law argument. If you don’t wear a brain bucket, it puts your life at risk, not others. CV-19 exists, it’s imminently provable, people get it, people get it and are asymptomatic, people who get it from the asymptomatic die, that’s not supposition, that is how epidemic vectors work.
If you go out after being tested positive, you have a very high likelihood of infecting others, heck people have been prosecuted for knowingly passing on STD’s. Going out in a pandemic is reckless if you have no proven immunity, no fact pattern exists for it to not be.
Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827) — 4/19/2020 @ 9:55 amKlink is gaslighting again and again. Constant bad faith arguments. You and a couple of others do this all the time and with the same methods. Very similar responses.
NJRob (4d595c) — 4/19/2020 @ 9:56 amNo, we are talking about an order the state ASSERTS is necessary to that end, but waives in some circumstances, and will NOT waive when it comes to a first amendment right.
BS. You are engaged in an exercise of your 1st Amendment rights. NOOOOOoooooobody has said you cannot very vigorously oppose the orders. ONLY that you cannot ACT in violation of them with impunity.
Ragspierre (d9bec9) — 4/19/2020 @ 9:58 amKlink is gaslighting again and again. Constant bad faith arguments.
You are a demonstrated liar and gaslighter.
Ragspierre (d9bec9) — 4/19/2020 @ 9:59 amYou should have stayed here in California, Kevin… 😀
A week ago, just after the government started encouraging people to wear masks, I was pleasantly surprised to see that well over half the people at my local Ralph’s (customers and employees) were doing so.
Yesterday, I went back for the first time in a week. They now have regular announcements on the PA system that masks are REQUIRED for all customers and employees. And I saw nobody in the entire store without a mask.
They also have someone outside the door cleaning shopping carts with disinfecting wipes after each usage, from open to close.
Dave (1bb933) — 4/19/2020 @ 9:59 amNow THERE is a straw man fallacy.
To be a strawman, it has to be an irrelevant distraction. What it is, is an argument that pointss out the arbitrary and capricious nature of the enforcement of the state’s order. If they cited every person outside without an N95 mask and gloves, and closed any store that allowed such persons to enter, THEN maybe you’d have a point.
We are talking about a state finding that the exercise of an enumerated first amendment right violates an order that they allow to be violated for other reasons. People do not have to go to the store to get food. They can order it from Amazon.
Kevin M (ab1c11) — 4/19/2020 @ 10:02 amDave wrote:
Many on the left have argued — though couched in wishy-washy words — that the government has a compelling interest in preventing murder, and therefore our rights under the Second Amendment should be extremely curtailed, if not wholly ended. We’ve had a few unfortunate instances of men shooting up schools with AR-15s, so the left have argued that AR-15s and other semi-automatic weapons should be banned completely — and Beta O’Rourke said he’d go door-to-door to confiscate them — assuming that anyone who owned them was a danger to public safety.
I could argue that the primary risk of murder is by inner-city black males, and therefore we should go door-to-door in Chicago and Philadelphia, confiscating any firearms in any households in which a black male lived, and such would be perfectly reasonable under current evidence.
When you accept the notion that there is such a “compelling interest of the government” to do this, that or the other, because safety!, to override our Constitutional rights, it doesn’t take much imagination to start adding other compelling government interests to the list.
The Dana in Kentucky (a2adc1) — 4/19/2020 @ 10:03 amYesterday, I went back for the first time in a week. They now have regular announcements on the PA system that masks are REQUIRED for all customers and employees. And I saw nobody in the entire store without a mask.
The protests were not in California. Now, those masks are mostly not useful, being mere strips of cloth, but yes, this would make a ban on peaceful assembly less of a problem. Of course, a protest with people wearing masks and ATTEMPTING to stand 6 feet apart would be hard to oppose (the grocery cannot enforce that without taking out every other aisle).
Kevin M (ab1c11) — 4/19/2020 @ 10:05 amONLY that you cannot ACT in violation of them with impunity.
So, civil disobedience is a bad thing now?
Kevin M (ab1c11) — 4/19/2020 @ 10:06 amI stand kind of corrected, as the church referenced didn’t actually have service that day, and the mayor officially didn’t restrict services via drive-in. But he did tweet a thing that could have potentially happened, but didn’t. I’m still pretty comfortable.
Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827) — 4/19/2020 @ 10:07 amTo be a strawman, it has to be an irrelevant distraction.
Nope. Look it up. And until you DO, don’t just lie about the definition.
And Amazon is not a panacea. Again, how stupid and insulting to everyone’s intelligence!
Ragspierre (d9bec9) — 4/19/2020 @ 10:07 amThe retired Commandant of Stalag 13 wrote:
LOL! It seems that the Pyrite State recently repealed its law requiring those who knew they were HIV+ to inform sex partners that they were so, even though HIV, while now survivable, requires a lifelong regimen of very expensive medications to do so.
The Dana in Kentucky (a2adc1) — 4/19/2020 @ 10:08 amSo, civil disobedience is a bad thing now?
Again, NO! And nobody said anything of the kind. Does “you cannot violate an order with impunity” just exceed your reading comprehension?
A civil disobedient DEMANDS that they be exposed to the full brunt of the law. NOT that they escape it because…something. Those would be scofflaws.
Ragspierre (d9bec9) — 4/19/2020 @ 10:12 amContext exists, civil disobedience in a pandemic is a bit different.
Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827) — 4/19/2020 @ 10:12 amIt seems that the Pyrite State recently repealed its law requiring those who knew they were HIV+ to inform sex partners that they were so, even though HIV, while now survivable, requires a lifelong regimen of very expensive medications to do so.
So we should all act like Kuhlifornia…!?!?!
Ragspierre (d9bec9) — 4/19/2020 @ 10:13 amWhether an activity is necessary for the health and safety of the community has nothing, a priori to do with its status as a protected right.
Artistic expression is a protected first amendment right (at least according to homophobic cake bakers…) but (like churches) movie theaters, playhouses, art museums and concert halls are demonstrably high-risk venues, and have rightly been closed.
Dave (1bb933) — 4/19/2020 @ 10:13 amMr M wrote:
Governess Gretchen Whitless (D-MI) ordered the sale of certain products, even in stores which were open, was prohibited. It was garden seeds and supplies which got the most attention, but clothing and child car seats were included in that order as well. Of course, Michiganders could still get those things through Amazon, but what the Governess did was to make sure that the profits went to Jeff Bezos, and not the retailers in her own state.
The Dana in Kentucky (a2adc1) — 4/19/2020 @ 10:13 amIn what way have I misrepresented a situation in order to make it easier to attack?
1. The 1st Amendment says that NO LAW may prevent the peaceful assembly to petition for redress. I believe that includes state laws now. The state would have to show that the law was the least intrusive method for accomplishing an imperative goal.
2. Shopping at a grocery is not necessary at all. It is merely convenient and provides a wider selection of food. It does not rise to an equivalent status as the 1st Amendment.
Therefore attacking the state’s order for being waived for a lesser thing is hardly a “strawman” but an effective demonstration of the state’s arbitrary enforcement. Which you don’t like.
Kevin M (ab1c11) — 4/19/2020 @ 10:15 am…what the Governess did was to make sure that the profits went to Jeff Bezos, and not the retailers in her own state.
Nutter conspiracy theory. Great.
Ragspierre (d9bec9) — 4/19/2020 @ 10:16 amA comment for Simon Jester, if he reads it. I am very happy to learn about Microbe.TV. The last episode (603 at 55 min) included discussions where some participants seemed very stressed and irritable about how laymen have responded to virus news. This is understandable because these are stressful times, but not everyone understands or agrees with scientists’ views. The podcasts are their chance to share their opinions and try to convince people, not be irritable or mean.
It is similar to here where people can get irritated and mean. Maybe, Simon, we aren’t that different after all.
DRJ (15874d) — 4/19/2020 @ 10:20 amNo, Kevin. Your “argument” WAS a straw man fallacy.
You can make your contention in 1. and 2. in a court of law. Good luck.
You can make both arguments in the court of public opinion. Good luck.
Ragspierre (d9bec9) — 4/19/2020 @ 10:20 amKevin, do you feel fire safety laws that limit how many ppl can worship in a room violates the first amendment? If not how are these different?
Time123 (d54166) — 4/19/2020 @ 10:20 amThe retired Commandant of Stalag 13 wrote:
Alas! You seem to have missed the story that Reichsstatthalter Andy Beshear (NSDAP-KY) did order the effective house arrest of a Nelson County man who had tested positive for COVID-19, placing an armed deputy outside the man’s home.
The Dana in Kentucky (a2adc1) — 4/19/2020 @ 10:23 amwhat the Governess did was to make sure that the profits went to Jeff Bezos, and not the retailers in her own state.
Amazon stock is 20% above its previous nosebleed high, and the company is now worth $1.2 trillion.
This crisis will prove to be the final nail in the coffin for mom & pop brick-and-mortar operations. Some undercapitalized corporations will fail. The Russell 2000 small-cap index remains 30% under its January high, while the big guys have come back rather more (and internet stocks are through the roof).
Kevin M (ab1c11) — 4/19/2020 @ 10:23 amOf course, Michiganders could still get those things through Amazon, but what the Governess did was to make sure that the profits went to Jeff Bezos, and not the retailers in her own state.
The actual ban applies only to stores with more than 50,000 square feet. So what Madame Governor did is shift customers from Home Depot and Loews to smaller businesses. Which in current circumstances is probably a good move.
Kishnevi (4a5f25) — 4/19/2020 @ 10:23 amThe greatly esteemed Ragspierre wrote:
And where did I state that such was a conspiracy? I simply pointed out the effect; you took it to be a conspiracy allegation because you don’t like my points.
The Dana in Kentucky (a2adc1) — 4/19/2020 @ 10:27 amYou seem to have missed the story that Reichsstatthalter Andy Beshear (NSDAP-KY) did order the effective house arrest of a Nelson County man who had tested positive for COVID-19, placing an armed deputy outside the man’s home.
Just as has been done since BEFORE the Constitution. YOU missed the history of the 1793 epidemic in our nation’s capital, and the quarantine of all STUFF coming from that city by several states.
Ships violating a quarantine were common sunk throughout history.
Ragspierre (d9bec9) — 4/19/2020 @ 10:27 amKevin, do you feel fire safety laws that limit how many ppl can worship in a room violates the first amendment? If not how are these different?
Those do not violate any part of the first amendment unless they are unreasonably set to levels that impede such, or require people to remain in said room.
As long as you can still speak or petition, and you can pick a bigger room and have more people, or go outside and have as many people as you want, there is no problem at all.
I think this is what Rags calls a “strawman”
Kevin M (ab1c11) — 4/19/2020 @ 10:28 amYour “argument” WAS a straw man fallacy.
Assertions are cheap. Backing up your arguments is hard. I can see why you go for the former.
Kevin M (ab1c11) — 4/19/2020 @ 10:30 amI simply pointed out the effect; you took it to be a conspiracy allegation because you don’t like my points.
Nope. It’s a nutter allegation of a conspiracy to benefit Bezos at the cost of local business by a state governor.
Ragspierre (d9bec9) — 4/19/2020 @ 10:30 amThe Dana in Kentucky (a2adc1) — 4/19/2020 @ 10:23 am
And exercising the quarantine powers of the state givernment which they have held since they were the 13 colonies, and Kentucky was the wilderness west of Virginia.
Rob at least was complaining about actions taken against people not known to be infected. I think he is wrong, but at least there he has uninfected people to complain for.
If you want to defend your right to become infected and to pass that infection on to other people as being absolute against government interference , you need to do better.
Kishnevi (4a5f25) — 4/19/2020 @ 10:32 amAssertions are cheap.
And nobody here relies on that more than you.
I invited you to test your loopy claims in court and/or public opinion.
Do it!
Ragspierre (d9bec9) — 4/19/2020 @ 10:33 amThe current public health measures are not imposed on the basis of their degree of constitutional favor.
They made based on a comparison of the risks and benefits. Without restaurants, grocery stores and their established high-volume supply chains, it would be impossible to feed everyone. This is why the considerable additional risk is tolerated, in this case – because the alternative is more dangerous to our health.
It is really out of character for you to argue something so silly.
Dave (1bb933) — 4/19/2020 @ 10:34 amRagspierre wrote:
Of course, the Bill of Rights was not binding on the states until after the Supreme Court started ‘incorporating’ it through the mechanism of the Fourteenth Amendment. But the fact that previous unconstitutional actions — the District of Columbia was under federal law — occurred does not somehow constitute evidence that the Constitution can be ignored now.
The Dana in Kentucky (a2adc1) — 4/19/2020 @ 10:39 amThe order in no way “bans” even the larger stores from selling such goods. They just have to do it in a way that doesn’t involve customers browsing the aisles in question themselves.
Dave (1bb933) — 4/19/2020 @ 10:40 amLet me be clear. I do not myself believe that these orders should be violated, and indeed I have REAL N95 masks and a box of nitrile gloves and on the few times I venture forth (the the grocery or the pharmacy for things that Amazon cannot deliver (meat, produce, prescription drugs and items that are out of stock (e.g. paper goods)) I wear them religiously. I discard the gloves before getting back in my car and I reuse the masks some by necessity.
Yet I feel that I have to defend the rights of those I do not necessarily agree with. They have the right to protest and demand that government change its ways. To say that this might impose some additional risk on them, or those that might come into contact with them is both true and irrelevant. Such an argument, if allowed, would make nearly all first amendment rights meaningless.
Examples: pornography arguably leads to an increase in sexual violence, or a corruption of the young, or an increasing coursness to society and interpersonal relations. Yet we allow it. Protesting a war may lead to decreased morale among the troops, give aid and comfort to our foes, and lead to manpower shortages in the armed forces. Yet we allow it. Newspapers constant print scurrilous articles about revered politicians, interfere with ongoing trials and make jury selection harder, and say things about other public figures that are untrue and cause anguish. Yet we allow it.
So I must defend these folks, who may even be right, even though I disagree with them. At least today, but heck, if allowed to speak they may change my mind. Or yours.
Kevin M (ab1c11) — 4/19/2020 @ 10:41 am“ The actual ban applies only to stores with more than 50,000 square feet. So what Madame Governor did is shift customers from Home Depot and Loews to smaller businesses. Which in current circumstances is probably a good move.”
Denying people the right to access an aisle in a store they may have been in already for other needs, necessitating an additional trip and forcing them to mix with even more people is ludicrous. The size of the store should not be a factor in what you are allowed to purchase.
And oh yeah deeming lottery tickets essential to boot.
Why do people keep making excuses for this nuttery?
harkin (358ef6) — 4/19/2020 @ 10:41 am_
Public health powers and quarantining are among the traditional powers reserved to the states and to which the 10th Amendment applies.
The mere fact that you don’t like the use of that power does not make it unconstitutional.
Kishnevi (4a5f25) — 4/19/2020 @ 10:43 amOf course, the Bill of Rights was not binding on the states until after the Supreme Court started ‘incorporating’ it through the mechanism of the Fourteenth Amendment. But the fact that previous unconstitutional actions — the District of Columbia was under federal law — occurred does not somehow constitute evidence that the Constitution can be ignored now.
And, naturally, nobody is suggesting that the Constitution IS or SHOULD be “ignored”.
The point from which you deflect is that the power of the states to make and enforce orders to protect their people from deadly peril PRE-DATES the Constitution AND has been the norm SINCE.
Ragspierre (d9bec9) — 4/19/2020 @ 10:44 amThey just have to do it in a way that doesn’t involve customers browsing the aisles in question themselves.
What on earth is the rationale? It’s not FAIR? I may actually NEED shoes, and going without shoes is unhealthy. Or my remote control isn’t working and so I am less willing to watch TV, leading me to go outside more. That a store is still open, and the employees are still observing strict protocols, what does it matter if they are selling blankets as well as pickles. And who really needs pickles?
Kevin M (ab1c11) — 4/19/2020 @ 10:44 amSeizing someone who has tested positive for a novel infectious agent for which there is no current herd immunity and confining them to their home until such time as they no longer pose a threat to public healrh isa reasonable seizure under the fourth amendment. It is in no way unconstitutional.
aphrael (7962af) — 4/19/2020 @ 10:44 am@127, the problem was ppl using HD as a place to wander around.
Lottery tickets are sold at the checkout counter.
This stuff has a rationale if you bother to look.
Time123 (d54166) — 4/19/2020 @ 10:45 amNot to say it’s 100% correct. But its not pointless or arbitrary.
At least 4 Kentucky residents have been monitored for violating signed quarantine agreements:
That seems fair.
DRJ (15874d) — 4/19/2020 @ 10:45 amAh, this old one. The order limited to stores above 50k square feet, also didn’t ban the sale of seeds, etc, only said close the aisle. Here’s an explainer for the simples. Home Depot, Menards, and Lowes all said that all you needed to do was ask and they’d get it for you, in fact at Home Depot, they have a nice service where they’ll pull your order if you using the app, and have it ready. Of course, under 50k sq/ft, were NOT ordered to close down aisle and limit how many people can be in the store at once
also the small thing where he refused to quarantine, and had an ankle monitor put on. Details, I know, it makes your argument less valid, but like Paul Harvey said…
Kentucky judges order COVID-19 patients to wear ankle monitors for refusing to quarantine
Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827) — 4/19/2020 @ 10:46 amWhile I agree that states have the quarantine power, I don’t think that it can ride roughshod over the Bill of Rights. Its exercise must be the least intrusive on those rights possible to accomplish its needed goals. Further, it must not be MORE intrusive on those rights than on other activities with less protection.
Kevin M (ab1c11) — 4/19/2020 @ 10:47 amThey are fortunate to be able to stay home. They could be put in an isolation facility.
DRJ (15874d) — 4/19/2020 @ 10:50 amTo say that this might impose some additional risk on them, or those that might come into contact with them is both true and irrelevant. Such an argument, if allowed, would make nearly all first amendment rights meaningless.
MORE of your naked assertions!
It’s irrelevant that my conduct might kill or debilitate you?
As noted…and ignored…you are actively using your 1st Amendment rights at this moment, and you have ample access to others all you want.
C’mon! Use them! Tell the courts and your fellows what is “irrelevant” and they don’t need a grocery store. Please! Make sure to video the process!
Ragspierre (d9bec9) — 4/19/2020 @ 10:50 amThe actual ban applies only to stores with more than 50,000 square feet.
Any bets on whether unions had an input on this? They’ve banned Walmart from Los Angeles on this basis.
Kevin M (ab1c11) — 4/19/2020 @ 10:50 amAs noted…and ignored…you are actively using your 1st Amendment rights at this moment, and you have ample access to others all you want.
Just so long as I keep them within the bounds the state orders? How do you feel about “hate speech”?
Kevin M (ab1c11) — 4/19/2020 @ 10:53 am@138 Unfounded conspiracy theories are unusual for you.
Time123 (d54166) — 4/19/2020 @ 10:55 amJust so long as I keep them within the bounds the state orders? How do you feel about “hate speech”?
You are reduced to silliness and deflection.
Ragspierre (d9bec9) — 4/19/2020 @ 10:55 am@130
Again, they had ppl slowly browsing and congratating in those parts of the store.
As has been explained several times.
Time123 (d54166) — 4/19/2020 @ 10:59 amFor apples give me New Zealand Braeburn or Honeycrisp.
_
Some of my favorites for Debussy piano
Suite bergamasque (contains Clair De Lune)
La plus que lente
L’isle joyeuse
Des pas sur la neig
La fille aux cheveux de lin
Masques
Debussy pianists;
Marcelle Meyer
harkin (358ef6) — 4/19/2020 @ 10:59 amNatalia Trull
Thierry de Brunhoff
Samson Francois
Phillipe Entremont
Marc-André Hamelin
__ _
These matters are inevitably judgment calls. Somebody has to make them, based on incomplete and uncertain information, and with urgency. To paraphrase Patton, a good plan executed now is better than a perfect plan executed next week (because delay has costs).
This need to react intelligently and decisively to rapidly developing events is why the character, judgment and experience of elected officials matter, and why the federal government’s response in this case has been an utter embarrassment.
Dave (1bb933) — 4/19/2020 @ 11:02 amI agree…in theory. In practice have you seen these protesters? Some of them, way less than a majority, seem to genuinely feel the pain of the issue, but are still maintaining social distance and wearing gloves/masks. Most are carrying upside down American flags, no PPE’s, screaming at the top of their lungs, might as well be coughing, and holding signs that say things like…
5G, The Real Killer
Texas will not take the mark of the beast
Covid-19 is a lie
Fake Virus Open Ohio
Even Pharaohs Freed Slaves During an Epidemic
This is tyrrany (yes, that’s the spelling)
Sick=stay home Healthy=go to work (Lady with this sign had to go to the hospital because…guess)
Stop the Madness, It’s just a cold virus
Stop abortion now
Again, standing on top of each other, shouting like children, not taking any safety precautions. These are definitely the responsible people you should be having a conversation with.
Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827) — 4/19/2020 @ 11:04 am“ The actual ban applies only to stores with more than 50,000 square feet. So what Madame Governor did is shift customers from Home Depot and Loews to smaller businesses.
No it didn’t. The items she said they couldn’t buy in a big store, open for other reasons, were on a list of banned, or non-essential, goods. I thought the reason was she didn’t want the big stores to have an advantage (which ignores the factor of inconvenience to average customers) over the small stores, and she wanted people to wait until there was fair competition, but Peggy Noonan wrote in her column that the aim was to reduce the amount of traffic in the big store.
Even though this protest was politically organized, with some ties to the Republican Party of Michigan and then endorsed by Trump, (I don;t think Trump dreamed this up – people politically connected to him did) there were legitimate grounds for complaint.
The governor of Michigan, for instance, had ordered all car washes closed, even fully automated ones. I mean, you have one person making all these decrees.
One of the protesters said she was making rules for the entire state based on Detroit. (does the percentage of people infected make a difference?)
Sammy Finkelman (3bf6ea) — 4/19/2020 @ 11:07 amOnce again, NO.
The criterion is not “how protected is X?” but “what is the balance between the benefits and risks of X?” The goal of all of this is to protect public health, and that is the basis on which restrictions should be justified.
By your criterion, movie theaters, concert halls, etc, should be reopened, because they are just as protected. And that’s silly.
Dave (1bb933) — 4/19/2020 @ 11:11 amThe governor of Michigan, for instance, had ordered all car washes closed, even fully automated ones.
Does someone have to service a robo-wash? Does someone have to collect the money?
It may not have been what I would order, but I don’t assume there is no rationale behind it.
Ragspierre (d9bec9) — 4/19/2020 @ 11:12 amLIBERATE THE WHITE HOUSE
Dave (1bb933) — 4/19/2020 @ 11:13 amAmain and amain.
Ragspierre (d9bec9) — 4/19/2020 @ 11:13 amWhy do people keep making excuses for this nuttery?
I think you know the answer to that question… the easiest explanation.
Colonel Haiku (2601c0) — 4/19/2020 @ 11:16 amAnd?…
Is that a good thing or a bad thing to you? The question was is knowingly infected people not following even plain common sense, much less lawful orders. The example was people have went to prison for knowingly having sex with someone when they know they have an STD.
You had your cute response, care to actually address the question? I’m going to go ahead and say you’ll ignore the point, through something that is barely tangentially linked instead. Like turkey bacon is not as good as piggie bacon.
Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827) — 4/19/2020 @ 11:19 amthrow, or through, I’ve heard it both ways (Psyche, I can’t wait for Lassie Come Home)
Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827) — 4/19/2020 @ 11:20 amLIBERATE MELANIA
Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827) — 4/19/2020 @ 11:21 amLIBERATE BARRON!
poor kid…
Ragspierre (d9bec9) — 4/19/2020 @ 11:23 amMore of the same. Over and over again.
NJRob (4d595c) — 4/19/2020 @ 11:24 amI think you know the answer to that question… the easiest explanation.
Some people are nuts.
Ragspierre (d9bec9) — 4/19/2020 @ 11:26 amSorry to hear about the deaths on the Navajo reservations. But I sincerely doubt its because “Not enough money” has been provided by the Federal Government. The easy way out for every minority leader when things go wrong is to blame Republicans or the Federal Government for not helping enough.
rcocean (1a839e) — 4/19/2020 @ 11:38 amChopin piano favorites:
Ballade No. 3
Scherzo No. 2
Berceuse
Nocturne Op 9 no. 2
Nocturne Op 15, no. 3
Nocturne Op 55 no. 1
Nocturne Op 72 no. 1
Études op. 10 no. 1, no. 3, no. 8, no. 12,
Études op. 25 no. 1, no.11, no
Waltz op. 18 no. 1
Preludes op. 28 no. 6, no. 7 (the one prelude anyone can play, brief and simple yet brilliant), no. 15, no. 17, no. 20, no. 28
_
Chopin Pianists
Vlado Perlemuter
harkin (358ef6) — 4/19/2020 @ 11:38 amGuiomar Novaes
Alexei Sultanov
Frederich Gulda
Eileen Joyce
Witold Malcuzynski
Regina Smendzianka
Vladimir Horowitz
Sviatoslav Richter
_
There’s good news that a Federal Judge has stood up for the 1st Amendment, and blocked super-nanny Kansas Governor order to limit all church services to 10 people. If Grocery and liquor stores can remain open – if maintianing social distancing – there’s no reason churches can’t.
rcocean (1a839e) — 4/19/2020 @ 11:40 amFor the Coronavirus response, Native American reservations have received, to date, none trillion, none billion, none million. They’re earmarked $10B, but none has been disbursed yet. They’ll eventually get it, but since Native American reservations are the poorest places, with the worst healthcare, in all of these United States, it’s a glaring problem.
Maybe they should find a billionaire sponsor, there are quite a few of them, there were those two guys running for the democratic ticket.
Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827) — 4/19/2020 @ 11:45 amRagspierre wrote:
Really? You, among others, have been arguing that our constitutional rights can be subjugated to state power if it’s really, really necessary.
There are many things which pre-date the Constitution: being hanged, drawn and quartered, capturing native Africans and importing them for slavery being examples. But the Constitution explicitly limits federal and now state power, regardless of whether it had been exercised otherwise previously. That’s why we have it!
The Dana in Kentucky (a2adc1) — 4/19/2020 @ 11:46 amNew York Governor Cuomo’s Sunday April 19, 2020 coronavirus press briefing, which started about 12 pm and lasted about an hour. Transcript here is all in capital letters because it was taken directly from the closed captioning..
https://www.c-span.org/video/?471344-1/york-gov-cuomo-holds-coronavirus-briefing
New York State is about to begin massive random sample antibody testing over the next week – the most aggressive in the nation. They are going to find out what percentage of the population (of New York) has actually had the virus. Thousands of tests. They got test approved by the FDA. It ill be the first real true snapshot of what we are dealing with.
He said the reason the predictions didn’t come true – he said what we had a great success – was because of all the social distancing and in the beginning they didn’t know whether that would work.
He’s glad to have all 3 of is daughters with him now.
It’s going to be possible for people to get married online, and he’ll make it even easier.
He didn’t quite remember the quote from former Senator Daniel Patrick Moynihan. It’s “Everyone is entitled to his own opinion but no one is entitled to his own facts.”
He gave only mild criticism of the president, and was OK with a tweet.
He said it’s OK to help small business or the airlines but the state needs money (Democrats want to include that in the bill up for discussion now) They need that to re-open.
Sammy Finkelman (3bf6ea) — 4/19/2020 @ 11:49 amAs I’ve stated before my sis is an ICU RN in AZ.
She told me a few weeks ago that many virus patients were Native American. When I asked if she knew why they were getting hit so hard she said: “sure, comorbidity, pre-existing conditions, poverty and an unwillingness to seek help till its advanced”, the same thing that hit them with H1N1”.
harkin (358ef6) — 4/19/2020 @ 11:53 amWell, yes… https://twitter.com/wretchardthecat/status/1251726231864635393
Colonel Haiku (2601c0) — 4/19/2020 @ 11:53 amThe retired Commandant of Stalag 13 wrote:
You really shouldn’t challenge me on what happens in the Bluegrass State, because you wind up getting it wrong. No, the Nelson County man did not have an ankle monitoring order; that was a story from Louisville. Yes, he refused to quarantine, so Reichsstatthalter Beshear orchestrated a house arrest — let’s call it what it is — for him, and had armed sheriff’s deputies placed outside his home to enforce it, all without due process of law or a day in court for the man.
If he had left his home, would the deputies have shot him?
Yes, that happened, and should never have been allowed. They were not convicted of any crime, yet were treated as criminals.
The Dana in Kentucky (a2adc1) — 4/19/2020 @ 11:55 amReally? You, among others, have been arguing that our constitutional rights can be subjugated to state power if it’s really, really necessary.
Now you’re doing the ol’ crawdad! YOU said “ignore”. Now you’re dancing the sideways dance!
But the Constitution explicitly limits federal and now state power, regardless of whether it had been exercised otherwise previously. That’s why we have it!
Well, no. We have it because the sovereign states saw the terrible necessity of forming a new experiment (as the Art. Of Consideration were a bust). The preamble says so. So they very clearly limited the power of the new central government, and THAT’s why we have it. NO state would have ratified the Constitution if it meant they would be powerless to issue orders for their citizens’ protection. The very idea is cray-cray.
The Tenth is clear. And this kind of protection has been SEEN SINCE the Constitution, as you strangely refuse to recognize.
Wonder why?
Ragspierre (d9bec9) — 4/19/2020 @ 11:58 am…and had armed sheriff’s deputies placed outside his home to enforce it, all without due process of law or a day in court for the man.
And ships and their crews would be turned away from American ports for quarantine with no due process.
They’d also be blown out of the water if they violated the quarantine with exactly that measure of due process.
We were never a stupid people. At least in the main.
Ragspierre (d9bec9) — 4/19/2020 @ 12:05 pmhttps://www.c-span.org/video/president-george-w-bush-addresses-house-endorses-joe-biden
Dustin (c56600) — 4/19/2020 @ 12:06 pm161. Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827) — 4/19/2020 @ 11:45 am
Maybe Bill Gates.
The New York Times reports that the most widely circulated false conspiracy theory about the virus is that Bill Gates inventd it, to make a prediction he made in 2-15 come true, or for some other reason. And Inforwars soon had a false claim that he had sponsored the patenting of a vaccine – but it’s against the chicken coronavirus.
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/17/technology/bill-gates-virus-conspiracy-theories.html
This lie is even bigger than the one blaming 5G cellular towers either for damaging people’s immune system, or, for the more gullible, directly helping the infection. That one is circulating in the United Kingdom and in Europe.
https://www.foxnews.com/tech/the-great-5g-coronavirus-conspiracy
These are both apparently bigger than the coronavirus lies circulated by Vladimir Putin, through openly Russian sources, which are that it was invented in a lab. All diseases are invented in a lab (according to propaganda revived from Soviet times – a U.S. lab naturally – and sometimes that they are designed to hurt a particular class of people.
Russia also campaigns against vaccines – except within Russia.
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/13/science/putin-russia-disinformation-health-coronavirus.html
Sammy Finkelman (3bf6ea) — 4/19/2020 @ 12:09 pmA short but very good listen:
Julian Reichelt
@jreichelt
China‘s embassy in Berlin wrote me an open letter because they weren‘t too happy with our Corona coverage. I responded.
https://twitter.com/jreichelt/status/1251431001999527936?s=20
harkin (358ef6) — 4/19/2020 @ 12:10 pm_
Finally, someone (Dana From Kentucky @84) has invoked Godwin’s Law.
RipMurdock (e81e20) — 4/19/2020 @ 12:11 pmThey were not convicted of any crime, yet were treated as criminals.
No, that’s a damned lie. We’ve been over this time and again, and there’s just no excuse for it.
This practice goes back to the first time mankind tried to fight mass contagion. A quarantine or isolation order is NOT a criminal matter. There’s no implication of wrongdoing. No due process is entrained because all due process already occurred when the laws were written and adjudicated.
Ragspierre (d9bec9) — 4/19/2020 @ 12:12 pmMike Pence said today, or seemed to say, that they wanted to put coronavirus in the past and then open America back to work.
Everyone says there will be at least a little uptick when they do.
If they want to wait until this is all over, they will probably have to ait three or four years.
Sammy Finkelman (3bf6ea) — 4/19/2020 @ 12:22 pm> It seems that the Pyrite State recently repealed its law requiring those who knew they were HIV+ to inform sex partners that they were so, even though HIV, while now survivable, requires a lifelong regimen of very expensive medications to do so.
I opposed that change in the law, but it’s more complicated than that.
Someone who is taking the prescribed amount of PREP on the prescribed schedule has a low enough viral load that, as long as they continue with the program, they are not infectious.
Meanwhile, a lot of people simply won’t get involved with someone they know to be HIV+.
So the argument from the people who pushed for this change in the law was: these people pose no risk to public health, so why should they be forced by law to subject themselves to this rejection?
For me, I think there’s an ethical obligation to disclose because there is always some risk, and because of the nature of the risk I don’t have a problem with it being enforced by law. But I think it’s important to be aware that an underpinning of the argument is that properly medicated people are not infectious.
aphrael (7962af) — 4/19/2020 @ 12:42 pmIf they want to wait until this is all over, they will probably have to ait three or four years.
Is that a problem, Sammy?
Colonel Haiku (2601c0) — 4/19/2020 @ 12:45 pm106. Dave (1bb933) — 4/19/2020 @ 10:13 am
And actually, someone writes in a Op-ed in the New York Daily News today, so
was the New York City subway system.
Kevin M was right. It was like everyone who used it was attending a parade, sports events, weddings funerals,r or big religious services twice a day. It probably never got put on a list of things to ban both because the lists were developed outside New York City, and because of necessity – nurses and even doctors and other people considered essential wouldn’t be able to get to work.
https://www.nydailynews.com/opinion/ny-oped-why-the-subways-are-a-prime-culprit-20200419-kkqwbd5yx5gk7awngy4d7j4zfa-story.html
Counterargument: https://nyc.streetsblog.org/2020/04/17/that-mit-study-about-the-subway-causing-covid-spread-is-crap
It doesn’t really match ay subway line. It more matches the population. There are lot odf people from China in these zip codes, and he was talking about when the rate stated to go up.
This could also mean that crowds, per se, aren’t so dangerous or, once somebody is near 20 people, the risk doesn’t go up much , if at all, with any more. Interaction is short lived in these kinds of crowds.
Sammy Finkelman (3bf6ea) — 4/19/2020 @ 12:48 pmTrump tells a damnable and murderous lie
“It would have been so easy to be truthful.”
Thus spake President Trump this week on the very day he surpassed the milestone of uttering 18,000 falsehoods during his presidency, as tallied by the Post’s Fact Checker.
But on this day, Trump was not admitting to losing his own struggle with the truth. He was accusing the World Health Organization of “covering up the spread of the coronavirus” and failing to “share information in a timely and transparent fashion.” He declared he was cutting off funding for the world’s public health body in the middle of a pandemic.
The next day he called the WHO a “tool of China” and floated the vile conspiracy theory that the WHO deliberately concealed the danger of the virus: “There’s something going on” at the WHO “that’s very bad,” and “I have a feeling they knew exactly what was going on.”
This is not merely a falsehood. This is a damnable and murderous lie.
As Trump surely knows, and as I have learned from people with knowledge of the situation who spoke to me on the condition of confidentiality, 15 officials from his administration were embedded with the WHO in Geneva, working full time, hand-in-glove with the organization on the virus from the very first day China disclosed the outbreak to the world, Dec. 31. At least six other U.S. officials at WHO headquarters dedicated most of their time to the virus, and two others worked remotely with the WHO on covid-19 full time. In the weeks that followed, they and other U.S. government scientists engaged in all major deliberations and decisions at the WHO on the novel coronavirus, had access to all information, and contributed significantly to the world body’s conclusions and recommendations.
Everything that the WHO knew, the Trump administration knew — in real time. As congressional investigators who requested WHO documents and communications are now learning, senior Trump administration officials — Health and Human Services Secretary Alex Azar; the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention’s Robert R. Redfield Jr., Anne Schuchat, Ray R. Arthur and Jeffrey McFarland; the National Institutes of Health’s Anthony S. Fauci and H. Clifford Lane, and many others — consulted with the WHO throughout the crisis.
RipMurdock (e81e20) — 4/19/2020 @ 12:51 pm…..
Almost immediately after China disclosed the outbreak, I’m told, 15 CDC officials at the WHO headquarters began working on covid-19 and other U.S. officials there were reassigned to the outbreak from their work on Ebola. U.S. officials participated in person in the twice-daily meetings of the WHO’s emergencies division. In addition to top-level conversations involving Redfield and Fauci, which would be expected, other Trump administration scientists were in all “incident-management” meetings and participated in the WHO’s pandemic “expert network.” They participated in a teleconference between top WHO officials in Geneva and the WHO’s regional and national offices. When the WHO formed its “emergency committee” in January to fight the virus, Martin Cetron, the CDC’s head of quarantine and global migration, was on it. Schuchat, the CDC’s No. 2 official, and Lane, a Fauci deputy, were on the WHO’s “Strategic and Technical Advisory Group for Infectious Hazards.” Others worked with the WHO group coordinating research on therapeutics, diagnostics and vaccines. This is as it should be: The CDC and NIH experts did their job. It’s Trump who didn’t.
……..
If they want to wait until this is all over, they will probably have to wait three or four years.
176. Colonel Haiku (2601c0) — 4/19/2020 @ 12:45 pm
It depends.
They need a new treatment, like giving everybody, or everybody who notices any signs of sickness, that skin patch developed in Pittsburgh, impregnating it with synthetic anti-coronavirus antibodoes.
And a saliva test for infection. I think it’s clear that virus infects other parts of the body besides the nose, where they put swabs.
Or else wait three or four years.
176.
Sammy Finkelman (3bf6ea) — 4/19/2020 @ 12:53 pmBut none of these people were the bosses of the WHO.
The WHO said, like China, that it was not transmitted person to person.
There were probably high level contacts. Nt that hina would have said: We want you to lie. There;s futility in that.
Sammy Finkelman (3bf6ea) — 4/19/2020 @ 12:56 pmDozens of coronavirus antibody tests on the market were never vetted by the FDA, leading to accuracy concerns
Like the HCQ treatment, let the market decide.
RipMurdock (e81e20) — 4/19/2020 @ 1:06 pm/sarc
I’ll assert this. None of the right specified in the bill of rights is absolute. I have a right to own property but there’s eminent domain. I have the right to worship as i see fit. but that right is limited by other laws. I have the right to assemble but I can’t blockade roads. I have the right bare arms, but I can’t own destructive devices. I have the right to travel, but if I come back from a country with an Ebola outbreak I will be forced to quarantine.
Time123 (b0628d) — 4/19/2020 @ 1:10 pmhttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East_Elmhurst,_Queens
Crona Zip code: 11368. There;s apparently a Post Office – 11368 called East Elmhurst, which does not even border Elmhurst, but is to the north of it, separated by Jackson Heights and you could ssay Corona. All are in 113 – Flushing. Queens has at least three 3 letter zip codes.
Corona is to the west and north of Flushing Meadows Park, where the 1964-5 (and 1939) World’s Fair was, near the U.S. tennis championship and the baseball field where the Mets play.
And yes, the number 7 train runs through it over Roosevelt Avenue.
Sammy Finkelman (3bf6ea) — 4/19/2020 @ 1:11 pmKevin M and other seem to be saying “We think certain steps in some circumstances but not these steps in these circumstances.” Which is very understandable. Where it becomes overwrought is the move from that position to “These steps a totalitarian violation of our rights.”
Time123 (b0628d) — 4/19/2020 @ 1:12 pm181. let the market decide.
It won’t take long to sort things out.
Q. What is each test testing?
Sammy Finkelman (3bf6ea) — 4/19/2020 @ 1:13 pmNorth Korea Denies Sending a ‘Nice Note’ to Trump
North Korea on Sunday denied President Trump’s assertion that its leader, Kim Jong-un, had sent a letter to him, and suggested that Mr. Trump was using his vaunted relationship with Mr. Kim for “selfish purposes.”
Mr. Trump said the day before during his daily press briefing on the coronavirus that he had received a “nice note” from Mr. Kim.
“I received a nice note from him recently. It was a nice note. I think we’re doing fine,” Mr. Trump told reporters on Saturday at the White House. He also claimed that the United States would have been at war with North Korea had he not been elected and played down the threat of short-range missile tests that North Korea has been conducting since March.
During a phone conversation with President Moon Jae-in of South Korea, Mr. Trump also said he had received a “warm letter” from the North Korean leader, Mr. Moon’s aides told reporters on Sunday. But later Sunday, the North’s Foreign Ministry said, “There was no letter addressed recently to the U.S. president by the supreme leadership” of the North.
RipMurdock (e81e20) — 4/19/2020 @ 1:17 pm…..
Kevin M and other seem to be saying “We think certain steps in some circumstances but not these steps in these circumstances.” Which is very understandable. Where it becomes overwrought is the move from that position to “These steps a totalitarian violation of our rights.”
One of the foundations of American government is we do not trust any one body to make all the decisions. Power is divided — horizontally at the federal level, and vertically between the federal government and the states. And on top of that, the Bill of Rights is enforceable by the courts against other branches of government. (After the 14th Amendment, they are also enforceable against the states.)
The problem here, however, is that we are allowing state governors to make all the decisions, including what is “essential” and what is not.
And most disturbing is that protesting against what you believe are bone-headed, harmful decisions by that very power is considered “non-essential” and hence can be controlled maximally, even banned outright.
A public protest is more effective than writing a blog or a letter to the newspaper. That is why it is strongly protected by the First Amendment. The notion that we trust the citizens less to hold a safe public protest at the state capital than we do to buy groceries at the supermarket is the stuff that totalitarianism springs from. All totalitarian governments allow their citizens to buy groceries, but they do not allow public protests, certainly not those critical of their governments.
One could certainly have a safe public protest — require everyone to wear masks, and keep a distance of at least 10 feet. (Or drive in their cars past the capital building, if that is what they prefer.) The governor finds that inconvenient? Tough, the First Amendment is more important.
Bored Lawyer (56c962) — 4/19/2020 @ 1:28 pmTrump team’s use of big insurer to dispense recovery funds comes under scrutiny
A senior economist for the White House Council of Economic Advisers, whose nomination to a post overseeing health insurance floundered in the wake of revelations of his financial ties to UnitedHealth Group, is now playing a key role overseeing a $30 billion recovery program being administered by UnitedHealth.
The choice of UnitedHealth, a leading health insurer, to serve as a conduit in funneling billions of dollars to hospitals and other providers, surprised many in health care, including employees at the Department of Health and Human Services who had assumed that HHS would administer the program itself. Though UnitedHealth says it will make no profit off of the deal, its role in handing out billions of federal dollars to hospitals could boost its relationships with the White House and the public during a tumultuous year and possibly provide it with valuable health care data, experts say.
“I’ve never heard of anything like this. The U.S. government pays hospitals all the time. Why would they need to pay a third party — a for-profit insurer?” said Wendell Potter, a former insurance company employee turned industry critic.
Stephen Parente, an economist at the Council of Economic Advisers, is one of the Trump administration officials advising the program, according to three people familiar with his work. One HHS official described Parente as one of three key decision-makers in determining how the CARES Act recovery money is allocated to health care providers across the country.
As a Minnesota-based health economist before joining the Trump administration, Parente served as a consultant to companies including UnitedHealth, which has also backed some of his non-profit activities. Five months after President Donald Trump nominated Parente to an HHS post overseeing health insurers in 2017, UnitedHealth donated a $1.2 million multi-year grant to a small research center that Parente directed and helped found at the University of Minnesota.
RipMurdock (e81e20) — 4/19/2020 @ 1:29 pm……..
WaPo and NYTimes pulling out all stops to blame Trump and FOX News while ignoring facts and their own behavior.
Comfortably Smug
@ComfortablySmug
In this garbage article, @GiniaNYT and the New York Times are blaming Hannity for a man’s death because of a quote he made OVER A WEEK AFTER the man left on a cruise to Spain where he contracted the virus.
__ _
Comfortably Smug
@ComfortablySmug
The journos are using Fox News and conservatives as a scapegoat because they dont want to admit this was what THEY were telling people before this poor guy left for his cruise
https://twitter.com/ComfortablySmug/status/1251909866983219201?s=20
harkin (358ef6) — 4/19/2020 @ 1:33 pm_
Dana @166
The states are currently exercising a power they had in 1776, and probably every Founder would think you are insane for thinking this is a violation of any of your rights.
It’s mark of the barreness of the modern Right that, having spent decades objecting to government exercising powers not sanctioned by the Constitution, they now object to government exercising powers that are sanctioned by the Constitution. And having spent decades objecting to invented rights not found in the Constitution, they now demand rights not found in the Constitution, such as that of ignoring public health orders, and picking and choosing what laws to obey under the claim of freedom of worship.
I will assume that their principles will motivate them to protest when, once normalcy of some sort returns, public health officials shut down restaurants for reasons of health and safety, because the same logic that says orders like those in Kentucky and Michigan are unconstitutional and abridgements of fundamental rights also leads to the conclusion that inspecting restaurants for health and sanitation are unconstitutional and abridge fundamental rights.
Kishnevi (1fe800) — 4/19/2020 @ 1:38 pmWhen I see commenters linking to the NYT, WaPo, CNN and a few others, it helps identify the ideological perspective they employ.
Colonel Haiku (2601c0) — 4/19/2020 @ 1:40 pmBL your comment is a good one….
Time123 (d54166) — 4/19/2020 @ 1:41 pmBTW Harkin, you forgot Ciccolini and Rubinstein.
Kishnevi (1fe800) — 4/19/2020 @ 1:41 pmRagspierre wrote:
“No due process is entrained because all due process already occurred when the laws were written and adjudicated”? Really? Then, by your own argument, we needn’t try someone for murder, given that “due process already occurred when the laws were written and adjudicated”. Just lock him up and throw away the key!
So, forcibly isolating people, putting them under house arrest, isn’t a punishment? We treat convicted criminals out on probation better than that! I can’t see much difference between a quarantine order and imprisonment.
The Dana in Kentucky (a2adc1) — 4/19/2020 @ 1:49 pm194. If quarantine or isolation is not a criminal matter, it sure as s**t becomes a criminal matter when someone stands accused of a misdemeanor for failure to stay at home like good little sheeple. Don’t p**s on my leg and tell me it’s raining, sheeple.
Gryph (08c844) — 4/19/2020 @ 1:58 pmaphrael wrote:
But, of course, you have no way of knowing whether a particular patient is taking his medication correctly.
Doesn’t that make sense? And why should we think that it is wiser to conceal from people who wouldn’t normally get involved with someone who is HIV+ that status, so that they might so get involved?
Isn’t that argument similar to those some have made that people we do not know to be infected with COVID-19 should not be forcibly quarantined?
I have no problem with the state asking people to self-isolate or quarantine; I very much have a problem with the notion that the government can force people intro quarantine.
The Dana in Kentucky (a2adc1) — 4/19/2020 @ 1:58 pmColonel Haiku wrote:
I don’t see that as a valid argument. On my own site, I choose to use those sources, because doing so eliminates the argument, “Oh, you just linked Fox, and everyone knows that’s evil reich-wing propaganda.”
The Dana in Kentucky (a2adc1) — 4/19/2020 @ 2:01 pmRagspierre wrote:
So, you don’t think that the government requiring certain people to wear an ankle monitor, like we sometimes do with those on bail or probation, is treating them like criminals?
Prior to this, who else other than criminals did we require to wear ankle monitors?
The Dana in Kentucky (a2adc1) — 4/19/2020 @ 2:03 pmDana, at 196:
i’ll repeat that i *opposed* the law in question and think it should still be required to be disclosed to partners. i just want the position of the people who are in favor of it described and understood accurately.
i’m being consistent here, i think. there’s a legitimate state interest in requiring people to disclose that they have a fatal sexually communicable disease to their potential sexual partners, and it’s ok for the state to enforce that rule. there’s a legitimate state interest in requiring people who are infected with a novel virus, communicable via aerosolized droplets, to be quarantined until they are no longer infectious, and it’s ok for the state to enforce those quarantine rules.
protecting the public from infectious diseases is one of the most important responsibilities of a state, particularly in an urban setting.
aphrael (7962af) — 4/19/2020 @ 2:07 pmMr nevi wrote:
There are many powers that the states exercised in 1776 that would today be considered an unconstitutional violation of our rights. In 1776, seven of the states imposed direct taxes on people to support churches.
The Dana in Kentucky (a2adc1) — 4/19/2020 @ 2:07 pmMy reading of the story of Typhoid Mary is instructive.
Mary was tracked down through the rather brilliant detective work of a civilian doctor.
She was placed under quarantine on the authority of a Health Commissioner acting under The Greater New York Charter. That lasted three years, during which she was compelled to submit stool and urine samples.
She was released on the stern condition that she would not work as a cook and would practice good sanitation.
Not too long thereafter, she decided she was not making enough as a laundress, changed her name (strongly demonstrating mens rea) and resumed working as a cook. Predictably, she managed to sicken many more people, two dying in an outbreak of typhus at a woman’s hospital.
She was again taken into custody and placed under quarantine on the same authority and with the same procedure as before (I found nothing suggesting otherwise). She spent the rest of her life in quarantine.
I found nothing to indicate the legality of any action by the health authorities was ever challenged.
Now it may be asserted that the legal climate has radically changed since. But that would be clearly beside the point AND a bald assertion without support. The point being that Mary was never charged with a crime, BUT was put away for years because of the threat she posed to public health.
In relating these facts, I make no claim to being an authority on the story. I just read and reason.
Ragspierre (d9bec9) — 4/19/2020 @ 2:13 pmThere are many powers that the states exercised in 1776 that would today be considered an unconstitutional violation of our rights. In 1776, seven of the states imposed direct taxes on people to support churches.
You left out the part about those states continuing the practice after the Constitution was ratified.
You ALSO continue to ignore the FACT that AFTER the ratification, states continued to exercise their rightssssssss to protect public health during an emergency, AND there is NO record of any Federal interference at any point thereafter. Certainly none in 1793 under Pres. Washington AND the men closest to the drafting of our national charter.
Why is obvious.
Ragspierre (d9bec9) — 4/19/2020 @ 2:20 pmThere are many powers that the states exercised in 1776 that would today be considered an unconstitutional violation of our rights. In 1776, seven of the states imposed direct taxes on people to support churches.
Several of the Founders objected to that power, as I recall. I know of none who objected to the practice of quarantining and intervening for the sake of public health.
Your zeal has led you to mistake a ledge for a street, and you’re starting to fall off the ledge.
Kishnevi (1fe800) — 4/19/2020 @ 2:25 pmhttps://issuesinsights.com/2020/04/18/after-repeated-failures-its-time-to-permanently-dump-epidemic-models/
Modeling.
NJRob (e18119) — 4/19/2020 @ 2:26 pmPrior to this, who else other than criminals did we require to wear ankle monitors?
When was the last pandemic when ankle monitors were available commonly?
Again, you simply persist in a broke-ass argument that only demonstrates how stubbornly ignorant you are, all evidence and good sense to the contrary.
Ragspierre (d9bec9) — 4/19/2020 @ 2:28 pmRob, the article seems to be wrong about the situation in Sweden
Kishnevi (1fe800) — 4/19/2020 @ 2:35 pmhttps://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/sweden/
Michael Fumento is a former Investor’s Business Daily National Issues reporter and is also an attorney, author, and freelance journalist who has been writing about epidemic hysterias for 35 years.
Yeah, no ax to grind by that cat… Totally objective and unbiased.
Ragspierre (d9bec9) — 4/19/2020 @ 2:39 pmTrump slams Fox News for interviewing Pelosi
Keeping it classy, as always.
Dave (1bb933) — 4/19/2020 @ 2:39 pm204… I posted this yesterday, Rob, it’s good info.
Colonel Haiku (2601c0) — 4/19/2020 @ 2:43 pmI don’t see that as a valid argument. On my own site, I choose to use those sources, because doing so eliminates the argument, “Oh, you just linked Fox, and everyone knows that’s evil reich-wing propaganda.”
Also has a tendency to eliminate the truth, unless you spend time to tear it down, lie by half- truth.
Colonel Haiku (2601c0) — 4/19/2020 @ 2:46 pmAn example: https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/asia_pacific/chinas-bid-to-repair-its-coronavirus-hit-image-is-backfiring-in-the-west/2020/04/14/8611bbba-7978-11ea-a311-adb1344719a9_story.html
Even as they start to get a clue, they can’t help but kiss China’s backside…
Colonel Haiku (2601c0) — 4/19/2020 @ 3:01 pmHow Trump let the U.S. fall behind the curve on coronavirus threat
Dave (1bb933) — 4/19/2020 @ 3:02 pmTrip Gabriel
@tripgabriel
Rise in coronavirus cases in states without stay-home orders, in the past week:
OK +53%
AR +60%
NB. +74%
IA. +82%
SD. +205%
__ _
David Roberts
@drvox
Conservative ignorance & mismanagement are getting people killed.
__ _
Matt Hellyar
@mehellyar
·
A lot of these states just got their testing ramped up as higher population states were given higher priority for test kits.
__ _
Lloyd Nickel
@lloydnickel
·
Hack Jornalism. The majority of cases in South Dakota are due the outbreak in Smithfield plant. Shelter in place would not impact the cases. Take Smithfield out and South Dakota has less than 600 cases,which is .0006 of the population.
__ _
A Marie D
@angdesp
·
AR had 42 new cases today. FORTY TWO. We are far from the problem. AR has the lowest infection rate in the SEC. The spike was related to an outbreak at the Cummings jail. Try again.
__ _
PoliMath
@politicalmath
I’m out of patience with this.
Roberts is smart enough and good enough with data that he KNOWS this is a cherry picked lie
Put him on the list of people who, when we needed honestly and truth, choose lies, hatred, and villianizing his political opponents
__ _
BS detector
@beernutzbob
·
42% of all US deaths are in NY and NJ, those bastions of conservatism.
__ _
Samy Bensmida
@SamyBensmida
·
Political polarization is the biggest virus out there
__ _
J-Rod
harkin (358ef6) — 4/19/2020 @ 3:09 pm@JaredCarlberg
·
There’s an “NB” in the US now? Did y’all take New Brunswick from the Canadians?
__ _
As late as Jan. 14, the WHO said “there was no evidence of human-to-human transmission” of the virus.
It didn’t declare the coronavirus as a pandemic until March 11.
https://nypost.com/2020/04/14/taiwan-accuses-who-of-downplaying-china-coronavirus-spread-reports/amp/
Colonel Haiku (2601c0) — 4/19/2020 @ 3:14 pmThis is a dishonest and/or ignorant claim.
The first employee of the plant to be infected did not catch it from another employee. It’s likely that preventing a much smaller number of cases outside the plant could have prevented the larger outbreak inside.
Dave (1bb933) — 4/19/2020 @ 3:18 pm–There’s an “NB” in the US now? Did y’all take New Brunswick from the Canadians?–
Maybe this guy had something to say about it: http://nypost.com/2020/04/19/police-officer-dead-another-injured-in-canada-shooting/
urbanleftbehind (403f00) — 4/19/2020 @ 3:21 pm* On January 14, the World Health Organization (WHO) tweeted that there was “no clear evidence” that the coronavirus could spread between people.
* The tweet — soon proved wrong — is a symbol for WHO critics of how it mishandled and downplayed the pandemic
* A new report by the Guardian says that the tweet was posted because an official worried that a WHO expert was issuing strong warnings that deviated from China’s messaging.
* A WHO source told Business Insider the message was posted to “balance the science out,” rather than for political reasons.
https://www.businessinsider.com/who-no-transmission-coronavirus-tweet-was-to-appease-china-guardian-2020-4?amp
Colonel Haiku (2601c0) — 4/19/2020 @ 3:22 pmDave, those are facts not remotely in evidence and it is an indisputable fact that the majority of cases in South Dakota are due to the Smithfield processing plant that would be open in any state.
It’s horrific that you would try and muddy the waters to put your agenda forward.
NJRob (e18119) — 4/19/2020 @ 3:22 pmThis is a dishonest and/or ignorant claim.
LMAO
Colonel Haiku (2601c0) — 4/19/2020 @ 3:23 pmFumento is being a COVID truther. He doesn’t mention that the initial high estimates were based on no mitigation steps taken.
Paul Montagu (0073cc) — 4/19/2020 @ 3:30 pmThe number of deaths in Sweden increased 64% in the last six days, and the Swedes suck in comparison to their Scandinavian neighbors. Their death rates are even worse.
Get real, eh? If the government can order you to go to Vietnam for a year (13 months for Marines) and kill little yellow people, it can for sure order you to go sit on your couch for a month (maybe six weeks) so little yellow people germs won’t kill you and all the people you meet. O-kay?
nk (1d9030) — 4/19/2020 @ 3:56 pmYou forgot the CCR, nk.
urbanleftbehind (403f00) — 4/19/2020 @ 3:58 pmContrary to claims made by Trump and his media mouthpieces, in a January 14 press conference, the WHO warned that the coronavirus could spread between people:
WHO says new China coronavirus could spread, warns hospitals worldwide
(emphasis added)
On January 19, it was known (based on a conclusive paper published by Chinese doctors) that the virus was communicable.
On January 28, two public health experts wrote a dire editorial in the Wall Street Journal:
Act Now to Prevent an American Epidemic
Trump was warned, in a memo from one of his closest advisors, on January 29, quote:
And yet, a whole month later, Trump was still telling the country:
Dave (1bb933) — 4/19/2020 @ 3:58 pmReally, we should. Other than Ontario and Quebec, the Canadian provinces would make great additions to the United States.
Actually, we should annex Mexico as well, but keep it as an administered territory, not allowing it to become a state, and certainly not allowing them to vote.
The Dana in Kentucky (a2adc1) — 4/19/2020 @ 4:02 pmAt one time, it was an indisputable fact that the majority of cases in Washington State were due to a nursing home that would be open in any state.
Paul Montagu (0073cc) — 4/19/2020 @ 4:04 pmGermany sends China £130billion bill for ‘coronavirus damages’ – sparks fury in Beijing
GERMANY has rattled China after joining the UK, France and the US in a rare attack, after Berlin called out Beijing’s responsibility for the global pandemic and even issued a £130bn invoice.
https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/1271028/Angela-Merkel-Germany-China-coronavirus-blame-Wuhan-Xi-Jinping-Trump-latest
Colonel Haiku (2601c0) — 4/19/2020 @ 4:07 pmYes, the plant would be open. But how did the first person working at the plant get infected?
Prevent that person from being infected (by preventative measures outside the plant), and hundreds of others would not have been infected either.
You have not refuted my argument in any way. It is tautological that the first employee of the plant to be infected was infected by a non-employee. And it’s indisputable that isolation measures might have prevented that first infection.
Since we don’t have contact tracing like better-led countries where the death rate per inhabitant is a fraction of ours, we’ll never know.
Dave (1bb933) — 4/19/2020 @ 4:17 pmFebruary 3, 2020…
GENEVA (Reuters) – World Health Organization chief Tedros Adhanom Ghebreyesus said on Monday there was no need for measures that “unnecessarily interfere with international travel and trade” in trying to halt the spread of a coronavirus that has killed 361 people in China.
“We call on all countries to implement decisions that are evidence-based and consistent,” Tedros told the WHO executive board, reiterating his message from last week when he declared an international emergency.
China is facing increasing international isolation due to restrictions on flights to and from the country, and bans on travellers from China.
There have been 17,238 confirmed infections in China including 361 deaths, as well as 151 confirmed cases in 23 countries and 1 death which was reported from the Philippines on Sunday, Tendros added.
“Because of this strategy and it weren’t for China, the number of cases outside China would have been very much higher,” he said.
Referring to the virus’ spread abroad, he said it was “minimal and slow”, while warning that it could worsen.
Tedros, who held talks in Beijing a week ago with Chinese President Xi Jinping and other leaders, coughed and interrupted his speech to take a drink of water, quipping: “Don’t worry, it’s not corona”.
China’s delegate took the floor at the WHO Executive Board and denounced measures by “some countries” that have denied entry to people holding passports issued in Hubei province – at the center of the outbreak – and to deny visas and cancel flights.
“All these measures are seriously against recommendation by the WHO,” said Li Song, who is China’s ambassador for disarmament at the United Nations in Geneva.
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-china-health-who/who-chief-says-widespread-travel-bans-not-needed-to-beat-china-virus-idUSKBN1ZX1H3
Colonel Haiku (2601c0) — 4/19/2020 @ 4:19 pmLOL. “Germany”. It’s the German equivalent of the National Enquirer…
Dave (1bb933) — 4/19/2020 @ 4:20 pmNot your best effort Dave. I give it a D-.
NJRob (e18119) — 4/19/2020 @ 4:24 pmNot your best effort Dave. I give it a D-.
Now, that’s a damn shame, coming from ol’ Gaslights Rob, who has been busted for lying about reading his own state’s law, AND then lied about what the law said.
Ragspierre (d9bec9) — 4/19/2020 @ 4:28 pm‘How do we overcome fear?’ Americans need confidence before life can return to normal.
Danny Meyer — restaurateur and founder of Shake Shack — said he is already envisioning the changes he will make when he finally gets the green light to reopen his restaurant empire. Kitchen employees will have to wear masks and not only have their temperature taken, but also look their manager in the eye and verbally confirm they are feeling healthy.
He is imagining other tweaks, too, to help reassure guests — from maitre d’s with laser thermometers to a coat check overhaul to a more European-style payment system that doesn’t require handing a credit card to the server. ……
In a poll released Thursday by the Pew Research Center, three-quarters of U.S. adults said the worst is yet to come with the novel coronavirus, and two-thirds were worried that restrictions would be lifted too soon. Findings released Friday by the University of Michigan’s influential monthly consumer survey found that 61 percent were most concerned by the threat to their health from the virus, over isolation and financial impact.
The dilemma is exacerbated by a president with credibility problems, as well as a nationwide testing shortage and the improbability of a vaccine anytime soon.
…..
“I’ve been saying over and over to businesses: ‘What are you doing to make people comfortable to show up?’ Because ultimately all the governors and Trump can say, ‘Yeah, you can go,’ but I think people will still be very cautious,” said Sen. Rick Scott (R-Fla.).
Referring to the more than 1 million jobs in his state tied to tourism, Scott added: “How are we going to make all these people feel comfortable coming back?”
Indeed, more than any edict from a leader — from the president to the nation’s governors to local mayors — people must feel confident returning to their pre-coronavirus existence before the economy can truly recover, according to many politicians, business leaders and consumer experts.
“The full restoration of consumer confidence will be more difficult and will take longer to complete than following any other recession since the Great Depression,” Richard Curtin, director of Michigan’s Institute for Social Research, wrote in Friday’s report on the hurdles to economic recovery. “Residual fears of exposure to some virus may still limit people’s willingness to be in crowds at sport stadiums, theaters, airplanes, cruises, large shopping malls, or even shake hands at the workplace or social events.”
……
During a conference call with Trump on Wednesday, business executives stressed the need for widespread testing, saying it would help reassure people they were safe to return to work. The administration has repeatedly fumbled in its attempts to make testing more available — with just 1 percent of Americans monitored so far — and Trump last week said the task was now up to the states.
On an earnings call the same day as Trump’s call, Goldman Sachs chief executive David Solomon said, “Unless people feel safe and secure and confident around the virus, the economic impact will continue in some way, shape or form.” And Business Roundtable President Joshua Bolten told CNBC on Thursday that safety measures and consumer trust are inextricably bound.
“Because if people don’t have confidence that it’s safe to go out and go to your job or go to a store, they’re just not going to go regardless of what the government says,” Bolten said.
…..
Trump, who for weeks played down the threat of the coronavirus, has repeatedly cast himself as a “cheerleader” for the country.“Well, this is really easy to be negative about,” he said during a news conference at the end of March. “But I want to give people hope, too.”
On Thursday, he seemed reluctant to the accept the shifting reality of the pandemic. He rejected the notion that the “new normal” now may include, for instance, restaurants or sporting arenas deliberately kept to limited capacity.
“That’s not going to be normal,” Trump said. “Our normal is if you have 100,000 people in an Alabama football game — or 110,000, to be exact — we want 110,000 people there. We want every seat occupied. Normal is not going to be where you have a game with 50,000 people.”
RipMurdock (e81e20) — 4/19/2020 @ 4:28 pm………..
Mister, we could use a man
Like Angela Merkel
Instead of the orange(ou)tan
Read the news today, oh boy? Merkel is reopening Germany. Greece has had only 113 deaths as of yesterday. South Korea, my fat aunt Fanny.
nk (1d9030) — 4/19/2020 @ 4:31 pmThere is zero recognition by these folks that there are secondary infections. So where did the Smithfield patient zero get it? Who did Smithfield patient zero through 800 give it to? Some of those people have spouses, some of them have kids, etc, etc. In Minnehaha and Lincoln county (where Sioux Falls is) they’ve tested a grand total of 6500 people, of which over 1500 as of today, were confirmed cases, 23%. There are 215k people that live in just Minnehaha and Lincoln counties, .7% are confirmed infected.
These people think that is all, you are either tested and confirmed, or it doesn’t exist. There’s no recognition that the real number is probably north of 10k, as of now, they’ll not have a peak for weeks from. In fact, the Mayor can’t even get the council to approve a stay at home NOW. Sioux Falls metro is going to end up with a worse mortality rate than NYC metro, approaching Italy, just without the steps to contain it. It could easily top 1k people, maybe more, as there are only 74 ICU beds with in the entire state. I hope Gilead can get them a serious amount of Remdesivir.
Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827) — 4/19/2020 @ 4:32 pmSome will continue to assist China as much as they can, others know the score:
https://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2020/04/16/condoleezza_rice_china_wants_to_shift_the_narrative_on_covid-19_dont_let_them.html
Colonel Haiku (2601c0) — 4/19/2020 @ 4:34 pmRags,
You’re still lying and gaslighting the crowd. Go switch names and do it again with one you haven’t ruined the reputation of.
NJRob (e18119) — 4/19/2020 @ 4:35 pmGaslights Rob, you are just lying again. I have your posts. People can read, and I’d be delighted to put them here.
Ragspierre (d9bec9) — 4/19/2020 @ 4:37 pmThey can read. Unlike you.
NJRob (e18119) — 4/19/2020 @ 4:40 pmRob, honey, remember two things…
1. when your argument is strong, you don’t have to lie. You lie as a default position.
2. I chop liars up in court for a living. I really enjoy it!
Ragspierre (d9bec9) — 4/19/2020 @ 4:43 pmMost Americans Say Trump Was Too Slow in Initial Response to Coronavirus Threat
As the death toll from the novel coronavirus pandemic continues to spiral, most Americans do not foresee a quick end to the crisis. In fact, 73% of U.S. adults say that in thinking about the problems the country is facing from the coronavirus outbreak, the worst is still to come.
With the Trump administration and many state governors actively considering ways to revive the stalled U.S. economy, the public strikes a decidedly cautious note on easing strict limits on public activity. About twice as many Americans say their greater concern is that state governments will lift restrictions on public activity too quickly (66%) as say it will not happen quickly enough (32%).
President Donald Trump’s handling of the coronavirus outbreak – especially his response to initial reports of coronavirus cases overseas – is widely criticized. Nearly two-thirds of Americans (65%) say Trump was too slow to take major steps to address the threat to the United States when cases of the disease were first reported in other countries.
Opinions about Trump’s initial response to the coronavirus – as well as concerns about whether state governments will act too quickly or slowly in easing restrictions – are deeply divided along partisan lines. These attitudes stand in stark contrast to the assessments of how officials at the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention and at the state and local level are addressing the outbreak, which are largely positive among members of both parties.
…….
Nearly half of Republicans (47%) say it is acceptable for officials to fault the administration’s response, while slightly more (52%) find this unacceptable. Democrats overwhelmingly think it is acceptable for elected officials to criticize how the administration has addressed the outbreak (85% say this).
…..
……. About half (51%) say he is doing an excellent or good job in addressing the economic needs of businesses facing financial difficulties.
However, fewer Americans say Trump has done well in addressing the financial needs of ordinary people who have lost jobs or income (46%), working with governors and meeting the needs of hospitals, doctors and nurses (45%). And 42% say Trump has done well providing the public with accurate information about the coronavirus.
RipMurdock (e81e20) — 4/19/2020 @ 4:43 pm………
Yeah, sweet talking me isn’t going to get you anywhere. Losers like you that focus on being keyboard warriors don’t impress me. Keep pretending you know what you’re talking about. You’ve already been exposed and found wanting.
NJRob (e18119) — 4/19/2020 @ 4:49 pmAs newsrooms face coronavirus-related cuts, 54% of Americans rate media’s response to the outbreak positively
Many U.S. news organizations are covering the coronavirus pandemic while themselves facing financial pressure from it. A growing number have announced layoffs, furloughs and other cost-cutting measures as the virus inflicts widespread pain on the economy, and these cuts come on top of years of earlier reductions in newsroom staffing, especially at newspapers.
Amid the financial challenges facing newsrooms, 54% of U.S. adults say the news media have done an excellent or good job responding to the coronavirus outbreak, according to a survey conducted March 19-24 as part of Pew Research Center’s Election News Pathways project. A slightly smaller share (46%) says the media’s response has been only fair or poor.
Americans rate the news media’s response to the virus more positively than that of President Donald Trump, but more negatively than the responses of other key actors, including public health officials, state and local elected officials and ordinary people in their communities.
The public’s assessment of this media response comes at a time when most Americans are paying close attention to coronavirus news. Around six-in-ten U.S. adults (57%) say they are following the news about the virus very closely, and an additional 35% are following it fairly closely, according to the survey of 11,537 adults who are members of the Center’s American Trends Panel.
RipMurdock (e81e20) — 4/19/2020 @ 4:50 pm………
One thing that happened. More people are answering surveys on the phone (particularly about coronovirrus?)
The response rate had gotten down to 5% and even less for cellphones.
It’s now a bit higher.
Sammy Finkelman (3bf6ea) — 4/19/2020 @ 4:53 pmYou’ve already been exposed and found wanting.
Put up a link, Gaslights. Do it right now. Please, please, please…
Ragspierre (d9bec9) — 4/19/2020 @ 4:56 pmMy words were chosen carefully and you have done nothing to refute them other than try to insult me.
Isolation measures prevent some transmission of the virus that would otherwise occur. That’s why the rate of new cases has gone from doubling every 2-3 days to remaining essentially flat.
Isolation measures could therefore have prevented the outbreak at the meat processing plant.
I explicitly acknowledged that we don’t know for sure. That’s being honest.
Claiming that stay-at-home orders definitely would not have prevented that outbreak is being dishonest.
The more close contact there is between individuals – anywhere – the more opportunities for virus to find additional victims. The more victims there are, the more additional victims they will infect, in turn.
Dave (1bb933) — 4/19/2020 @ 5:03 pmIt’s been shown on this board several times over buttercup. People have read it for themselves. You love to pick fights and troll. It’s seen in how you came here and started attacking long time members of this community. You think it impresses people like you pretending to be a lawyer and repeating it over and over again means something.
The expertise of those that have been here for years means something. They dont need to prove themselves. You, you’re just a wannabe Avenatti.
NJRob (e18119) — 4/19/2020 @ 5:06 pmShow.Your.Work.
Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827) — 4/19/2020 @ 5:10 pmIt’s been shown on this board several times
OK, than. Humble me with an example. Tick-tock…
Ragspierre (d9bec9) — 4/19/2020 @ 5:15 pmAsk others. Ask Haiku. Ask Kevin M. Ask Gryph. Over and over again.
Mr. Avenatti.
NJRob (e18119) — 4/19/2020 @ 5:26 pmKevin quite often provides details, I even agree with him sometimes, so I’d bet he doesn’t want to be pulled in.
Please, be specific, provide the comment number where you provided the detail, It’s at most 3 digits.
Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827) — 4/19/2020 @ 5:32 pm“ 2. I chop liars up in court for a living. I really enjoy it!”
– Ragspierre
Are you a prosecutor? A public defender? Private criminal defense? Most civil lawyers don’t chop up many liars “in court” on a regular basis.
Leviticus (cdf0fe) — 4/19/2020 @ 5:34 pmR.I.P. Tex Earnhardt
(Look him up!)
Icy (6abb50) — 4/19/2020 @ 5:38 pmI’m a civil litigator. I’ve handled many cases of fraud, and many others involving contract disputes that never would have seen court but for the lies that were told and stuck to. Too many family law matters that involved lies.
So, respectfully, you’re mistaken.
Ragspierre (d9bec9) — 4/19/2020 @ 5:44 pmAsk others. Ask Haiku. Ask Kevin M. Ask Gryph. Over and over again.
Well, no, Gaslights. I’m asking you, since you made the claim.
BTW, all that other “you attack bozo” extraneous BS won’t help. That’s just you tap-dancing.
Ragspierre (d9bec9) — 4/19/2020 @ 5:48 pmAh, family law – got it. That explains the contentiousness.
Leviticus (cdf0fe) — 4/19/2020 @ 5:58 pmMy words were chosen carefully
LOL… a first!
Colonel Haiku (2601c0) — 4/19/2020 @ 5:59 pmThat explains the contentiousness.
Not really. I’m Scots-Irish. We fight ourselves when there’s nobody else.
Plus, I enjoy a good argument. I may have learned it from the Jewish kids in west LA.
Ragspierre (d9bec9) — 4/19/2020 @ 6:13 pmMistaAvenatti
Mista Avenatti, Mr. Mike Avenatti
Colonel Haiku (2601c0) — 4/19/2020 @ 6:15 pmMista Avenatti, Mr. Mike Avenatti
Mista Mike Avenatti, won’t you quit?
You really make me laugh with ya gaslighting behavior
You’re gonna slip up big and then an army couldn’t save ya
Why don’t you behave ya little ragrat?
Take a little tip from the tabloid, because I know I’m not paranoid
When I say I saw ya tryin’ to mock him
Now you gonna collapse ya quivering quim
Cuz you ain’t happenin’ ya fraudulent foe
Across the pond, there’s going to be a reckoning for BoJo’s lassez faire approach to the WuFlu. Axios:
There are 16,060 dead Brits from the virus and, not counting tiny San Marino and Andorra, they have the 5th highest death rate. Although their confirmed cases is 24th (1,769 cases per million), their testing ranks even lower (7,101 per million), which means it’s likely that there a lot of unreported cases.
Paul Montagu (0073cc) — 4/19/2020 @ 6:15 pmTo be fair, Paul, Boris actually paid a price for his mistakes.
Appalled (1a17de) — 4/19/2020 @ 6:35 pmBoris did pay when he joined 120,000 of his countrymen, and I’d call it karma for his carelessness, but 16,000 had a stickier end.
Paul Montagu (0073cc) — 4/19/2020 @ 6:41 pm@259
tla (7ab14a) — 4/19/2020 @ 7:02 pmI’m also surprised that more people aren’t talking about Brazil. While the numbers so far haven’t been significant given the lack of testing (over 60% have tested positive), and Bolsonro’s Trump like inaction, given their density they are headed to major disaster of epic proportions.
Nicely done Haiku.
NJRob (e18119) — 4/19/2020 @ 7:03 pmIn new poll, 60 percent support keeping stay-at-home restrictions to fight coronavirus
Nearly 60 percent of American voters say they are more concerned that relaxing stay-at-home restrictions would lead to more COVID-19 deaths than they are that the restrictions will hurt the U.S. economy, according to a new national NBC News/Wall Street Journal poll.
But while strong majorities of Democrats and independents are more worried about the coronavirus than the economy, Republicans are divided on the question, with almost half of them more concerned about how the restrictions could affect the economy.
The poll also finds a significant change in attitudes about the coronavirus. The percentage of voters saying they’re worried that a family member might catch it has increased by 20 points since last month’s survey.
And those saying the coronavirus has changed their families’ day-to-day lives in a major way has jumped by more than 50 points from the March NBC News/WSJ poll.
……
“We have not seen a change at all” for Trump, said Republican pollster Bill McInturff, who conducted the survey with Democratic pollster Peter Hart and his colleagues at Hart Research Associates.
But Hart cautions that a long-lasting crisis could change things for the president.
“In every crisis, we go through this coming-together phase. And then we come to the recrimination phase,” he said.
“President Trump faces some tough sledding ahead in the recrimination phase.”
……..
In the poll, 58 percent of registered voters say that what worries them more is that the U.S. will move too quickly to loosen stay-at-home restrictions, resulting in the coronavirus’ spreading and more lives’ being lost.
That’s compared with 32 percent who are more concerned that the U.S. will take too long to loosen restrictions, which will harm the economy.
……..
Also in the poll, 44 percent of voters say they approve of Trump’s handling of the coronavirus, while 52 percent disapprove.
That’s essentially unchanged from March, when 45 percent gave the president a thumbs-up and 51 percent gave him a thumbs-down.
Trump’s overall job rating stands at 46 percent who approve and 51 percent who disapprove, which is identical to his score in March and consistent with his numbers over the past two years.
Only 36 percent of respondents in the poll say they generally trust what Trump has said when it comes to the coronavirus, while 52 percent say they don’t trust him.
By comparison, 69 percent say they trust the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention; 66 percent trust their own governors; 60 percent trust Dr. Anthony Fauci, the nation’s top infectious disease expert; 46 percent trust New York Gov. Andrew Cuomo; and 35 percent trust Vice President Mike Pence.
……..
As for the federal government’s response to the coronavirus, 50 percent of voters say they’re satisfied with the measures intended to limit the disease’s spread, versus 48 percent who are dissatisfied.
But just 34 percent are satisfied with the federal government’s ensuring that there are enough tests to limit its spread, and only 34 percent are satisfied with the amount of medical supplies.
…….
In March, 53 percent of voters said they were worried that someone in their immediate family would catch the disease. Now it’s 73 percent.
Also in March, a combined 26 percent said the coronavirus has changed their day-to-day lives in a “very” or “fairly” major way. Now it’s 77 percent.
And in a CNBC poll conducted in early April by the same polling firms, 27 percent said they personally know someone infected by the coronavirus. Now, just more than a week later, it’s 40 percent.
…..
In the new poll, a plurality of 45 percent describe the economy as being poor, which is up more than 20 points since March.
That’s the highest percentage of respondents calling the economy poor in the NBC News/WSJ poll since 2012.
Thirty-one percent rate the economy as being “only fair,” and a combined 22 percent say it’s either “excellent” or “good” — down 25 points from last month.
RipMurdock (e81e20) — 4/19/2020 @ 7:04 pmRob! You old gaslighting so-and-so…!!! I thought you’d fallen asleep in your beer.
STILL waiting for that example. I can’t be up all night!
Ragspierre (d9bec9) — 4/19/2020 @ 7:07 pmYou’re right, tla. The number of known cases grew 74% in a week, and deaths doubled.
Paul Montagu (0073cc) — 4/19/2020 @ 7:11 pmIt’s hard to know where they’re really at. They’ve only tested 63,000, but their death rate is low. They’re worth watching. I wouldn’t be surprised if cases and deaths jumped by that much by next week.
Facing criticism, President Trump both defended current testing capacity and promised to facilitate more.
RipMurdock (e81e20) — 4/19/2020 @ 7:17 pmWhite House and Democrats Near Deal on Aid for Small Businesses
Trump folds like a cheap suit again.
RipMurdock (e81e20) — 4/19/2020 @ 7:22 pm@268. Three decades of getting trickled on enuf?
Deregulate then; bailouts now: the Reaganoptics of Reaganomics.
Suckers.
DCSCA (797bc0) — 4/19/2020 @ 7:27 pmThis used to be an excellent blog commentary. Now it has degenerated into name calling, false accusations, and general all round contentiousness. Congratulations, the trolls have won.
Colliente (05736f) — 4/19/2020 @ 7:53 pmColliente, you don’t mean to contend that you read this entire thread and learned nothing do you?
Ragspierre (d9bec9) — 4/19/2020 @ 8:00 pmMr Avenatti I’ve already proven my point. Thank you .
NJRob (e18119) — 4/19/2020 @ 8:01 pmNo, liar. You’ve shown nothing. You can’t prove anything but that you are fundamentally dishonest and devoid of scruple. You demonstrate that excellently.
Ragspierre (d9bec9) — 4/19/2020 @ 8:08 pmMr Avenatti, you’re like wrestling with a pig.
NJRob (e18119) — 4/19/2020 @ 8:12 pmFor the benefit of clarity, what was the number of the post where you cited your example?
Because I think you failed. Yep. Nothing up there. Not one damn thing.
So, again, how’d you prove anything except what a lack of integrity you embody?
Ragspierre (d9bec9) — 4/19/2020 @ 8:21 pm@270…”General Allround Contentiousness.”
Didn’t he run with Goldwater– or was it Wallace? 😉
What goes around comes around: welcome to 1964.
DCSCA (797bc0) — 4/19/2020 @ 8:35 pmI’ve proven myself just fine. You’ve done the same. The public will decide. Hope you find a way to live with that.
NJRob (e18119) — 4/19/2020 @ 8:57 pmWho do you consider the trolls?
Paul Montagu (0073cc) — 4/19/2020 @ 9:04 pmC.c.c.c.c.can’t we all just get along?
norcal (a5428a) — 4/19/2020 @ 11:02 pmA long what?
nk (1d9030) — 4/19/2020 @ 11:07 pmHere’s a frightening article in Science enumerating all the different ways the virus kills people:
Dave (1bb933) — 4/20/2020 @ 12:11 amMore on the unfolding antibody-testing fiasco:
Antibody Test, Seen as Key to Reopening Country, Does Not Yet Deliver
It gets
betterworse:“Validate their results on their own and notify the agency that they had done so”…really?
Dave (1bb933) — 4/20/2020 @ 4:04 amIf anybody at all buying and using these tests is competent, competition will find and improve the best tests, and it won’t take very long – certainly faster than waiting for the FDA’s pre-approval. he o;y thing is not to start off with too much confidence in them. It’s not an established product. For now, it’s oomewhat like buying a house, and not something in a grocery store. If you know that, it’s OK. (the tests, though, should give consistent results, so at least you know what each test detects.)
New York’s Governor Andrew Cuomo seems to think the tests New York State is going to use this week on a random sample of New Yorkers (about 3,000 of them) are good. And he, or the state’s medical people in charge of that, may have a basis for thinking they are better than some of the bad tests.
Or is everybody except the Food and Drug Administration, stupid??
Sammy Finkelman (3bf6ea) — 4/20/2020 @ 5:01 amErrata corrected:
* The only thing is not to start off with too much confidence in them. It’s not an established product. For now, it’s somewhat like buying a house, and not something in a grocery store. (that doesn’t mean never do it)
Cuomo also apparently waited for the FDA to approve this test.
Now I suppose this could be a fiasco.
Sammy Finkelman (3bf6ea) — 4/20/2020 @ 5:07 amMore on the administration’s latest testing misadventure from the lead
Dave (1bb933) — 4/20/2020 @ 5:31 aminfectious disease expertjack-booted fascist:Unfortunately, these are problems our government cannot solve. If the testing doesn’t tell us someone is immune, if it doesn’t even tell us who is infected, if vaccines don’t work well, that’s all kinda tough luck.
Trump’s response these days is to pick fights to prove the economic problems are the democrat’s fault, and the virus is some kind of cold war with China, they are probably smart political moves, but they also do not actually solve anything. It’s like defunding the WHO in the middle of this crisis instead of in some kind of sober after action review that wouldn’t do harm, but also wouldn’t get headlines.
We all know that in a week or two there will be another stupid fight, another stupid scandal, and no enhancement to our confidence.
Dustin (c56600) — 4/20/2020 @ 5:53 amWow.
I wake up to an expanse of bad news on the virus front. Sadly, I expect nothing better on the political leadership front. What an interesting time we live in…in the old Irish curse sense of “interesting”.
Ragspierre (d9bec9) — 4/20/2020 @ 7:08 amhttps://hotair.com/headlines/archives/2020/04/study-testicles-may-make-men-vulnerable-coronavirus/
OK, no! Don’t even…
Ragspierre (d9bec9) — 4/20/2020 @ 8:39 amhttps://www.foxbusiness.com/markets/us-stocks-april-20-2020
Stock and futures around the world continue sliding down hill.
Ragspierre (d9bec9) — 4/20/2020 @ 8:48 amI’m a little late to the party, but there’s this.
Gryph (08c844) — 4/20/2020 @ 10:19 amMore unusual ways this virus can affect people – it can create what looks like frostbite in toes, and occasionally even fingers/ And that is sometimes the only symptom. Particularly in children.
https://www.nydailynews.com/coronavirus/ny-coronavirus-covid-toes-symptom-kids-youth-mysterious-20200421-iunphhl2bndvren3uqrycmdnia-story.html
Sammy Finkelman (83cfe1) — 4/21/2020 @ 5:55 pmEvery thing is a clue and can, or should, tell experts (and even non experts somewhat) how the virus works.
Frostbite is a sign of poor circulation. Now what would cause it to be the on;y significant system?
Here is another symptom.
The virus can be found in tears – opticians mayybe should be wary. It can celear up, but start again.
This was maybe the first, or one of the first, people who brought the virus from Wuhan, China to Milan, Italy. That’s maybe why we got so much detail, and t got published.
https://www.newsweek.com/coronavirus-woman-eyes-1499368
It seems to me that the virus has a tendency to remain dormant. During which the immune system ignores it.
Sammy Finkelman (83cfe1) — 4/22/2020 @ 4:15 am