Patterico's Pontifications

4/14/2020

California Governor Sued By Pastors For Coronavirus Restrictions On Churches

Filed under: General — Dana @ 5:52 pm



[guest post by Dana]

Unsurprising:

Three pastors from two different counties in California and a church congregant are suing Gov. Gavin Newsom, State Attorney General Xavier Becerra, and other public officials in federal court claiming Newsom and officials unfairly prevented people from attending church services and criminalized “the free exercise of religion,” The Sacramento Bee reports.

In order to slow the spread of the coronavirus, states have implemented stay-at-home orders and limited public gatherings. California began stay-at-home orders March 19 along with a mandate to close non-essential businesses.

But some faith-based communities have insisted on gathering despite health recommendations. Dean Moffatt, a pastor in Riverside County, was fined $1,000 after holding Palm Sunday services, The Sacramento Bee reports.

Dhillon Law Group filed a suit Monday in the US District Court Central in the District of California on behalf of Moffatt and the other pastors and congregant arguing that state officials deprived, “plaintiffs and all other residents of California of fundamental rights protected by the U.S. and California Constitutions, including freedom of religion, speech, and assembly, and due process and equal protection under the law,” according to a report by CNN.

The law firm argued in a written statement that the same social-distancing guidelines allowing people to go grocery shopping or buy alcohol should extend to attending church services, The Sacramento Bee reports.

Addressing Californians ahead of Easter Sunday, Gov. Newsom advised: “As you pray, move your feet at least six feet apart from someone else,” he said. “Practice your faith, but do so in a way that allows you to keep yourself healthy, keep others healthy.”

The churches argue that they should be allowed to meet and observe social distancing orders in the same way as essential businesses that have been allowed to remain open:

“The state does not get to dictate the method of worship to the faithful,” said Harmeet K. Dhillon, chief executive of the Center for American Liberty, a California nonprofit organization that filed the suit. The lawsuit argues that the orders are unconstitutionally broad.

“If a Californian is able to go to Costco or the local marijuana shop or liquor store and buy goods in a responsible, socially distanced manner, then he or she must be allowed to practice their faith using the same precautions,” she said in a statement.

Chapman University law professor, John C. Eastman, believes the suit has merit:

“Obviously, stopping a pandemic is a compelling government interest” but the issue is whether the orders are narrowly tailored enough to meet the strict scrutiny required of laws dealing with religion, Eastman said in an email.

“Services with only a single family in a pew, and spaced three pews apart, with everyone wearing masks and gloves, would accomplish the government’s purpose in a much less draconian way,” he said.

Meanwhile, a Virginia pastor who said God was “larger than the virus,” has died from coronavirus:

An evangelical pastor died of COVID-19 just weeks after proudly showing off how packed his Virginia church was — and vowing to keep preaching “unless I’m in jail or the hospital.”

In his last known in-person service on March 22, Bishop Gerald O. Glenn got his congregation at Richmond’s New Deliverance Evangelistic Church to stand to prove how many were there despite warnings against gatherings of more than 10 people.

“I firmly believe that God is larger than this dreaded virus. You can quote me on that,” he said, repeating it a second time to claps, saying that “people are healed” in his church.

Bishop Glenn also believed that he was essential:

Happily announcing he was being “controversial” by being “in violation” of safety protocols — with “way more than 10 people” at the church — he vowed to keep his church open “unless I’m in jail or the hospital.”

“I am essential,” he said of remaining open, adding, “I’m a preacher — I talk to God!”

Sadly, his wife now has coronavirus.

–Dana

60 Responses to “California Governor Sued By Pastors For Coronavirus Restrictions On Churches”

  1. Hello.

    Dana (0feb77)

  2. “I’m a preacher — I talk to God!”

    He doesn’t have to shout now.

    Too soon?

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827)

  3. Pride goeth before destruction and an haughty spirit before a fall.

    Dave (1bb933)

  4. It’s funny, I had included a comment at the end of the post, which I deleted becasue no matter how I worded it, it just sounded snarky, but I believe it with all my heart: No one, not one, no matter who he is, or who he believes himself to be, is essential to God. Ever. And if believers want to to talk to God, His line is always open and He stands at the ready to listen, 24/7.

    Dana (0feb77)

  5. The defendant moves to dismiss the Complaint and in support of his motion states:

    1. Jonestown.

    In further supports of his motion he attaches the certified death certificate of the late Bishop Gerald O. Glenn.

    Wherefore, the defendant prays that the Complaint be dismissed with prejudice and for such other relief as the Court deems just.

    Respectfully submitted,

    nk
    Attorney for Defendant

    nk (1d9030)

  6. Something that’s been bugging me:

    As far as I can tell, the New Deliverance Evangelistic Church is a single church in Richmond, not affiliated with any other.

    So who appointed “Bishop” Glenn as Bishop?

    In the evangelical circles my mom associated with, there was no hierarchy and there were no bishops, just pastors.

    Dave (1bb933)

  7. Pride goeth before destruction and an haughty spirit before a fall.
    Dave (1bb933) — 4/14/2020 @ 6:11 pm

    He said without any self awareness.

    Be careful that you do not stand about the Cross, in company with those who mock the Lord. Each fallen being, whether with faith in the Lord, or one with faith in medicine, will always draw out those who demonstrate their own pride, their own haughty spirit.

    Just as there were those who said “let us see if the Lord will save him,” there will also be those on whom the point of love and suffering is lost.

    felipe (023cc9)

  8. How about “Do not be deceived. God is not mocked.” The church would be far better off if more pastors and self-anointed “bishops” paid heed to this.

    Dana (0feb77)

  9. Dave:

    Some Baptists also have begun taking on the title of bishop.[37] In some smaller Protestant denominations and independent churches, the term bishop is used in the same way as pastor, to refer to the leader of the local congregation, and may be male or female. This usage is especially common in African-American churches in the US.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bishop#Church_of_God_in_Christ

    Kishnevi (779a41)

  10. Nobody’s mocking them, but I do marvel at the disingenuousness of lawyers who purport to represent churches. Church would be like the grocery store, the liquor store, or the head shop, if the parishioners went in individually, said a prayer, and walked out, maintaining a safe distance from each other the whole time.

    A full church service is comparable to a full formal banquet and I doubt those are allowed under Newsom’s order. Judges are (mostly) not stupid and they don’t like lawyers pissing on their leg and telling them it’s raining.

    nk (1d9030)

  11. No one, not one, no matter who he is, or who he believes himself to be, is essential to God. Ever. And if believers want to to talk to God, His line is always open and He stands at the ready to listen, 24/7.
    Dana (0feb77) — 4/14/2020 @ 6:17 pm

    The first sentence has the unhappy capacity to confuse many souls. The weak of faith may be tempted to think:

    “Then I am unessential, and being unessential, perhaps unloved, and if unloved, then unwanted.”

    This way lies despair. Why would the Lord create me at all, if not out of love? G*D is Love. If my existence were not essential to He who said “I AM,” then Love has no purpose, God had no purpose. Why then, make any effort to save Man who is unessential to G*D?

    The second sentence is absolutely correct and betrays the first sentence.

    felipe (023cc9)

  12. Judges are (mostly) not stupid and they don’t like lawyers pissing on their leg and telling them it’s raining.

    Assumes that which is not provable. Strike that, your honor… poorly phrased…

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  13. God gave us the most advanced brains of any land-going species. One might be tempted to think he expected us to use them.

    Nic (896fdf)

  14. Dana (0feb77) — 4/14/2020 @ 6:44 pm

    You are correct, Dana. It is my opinion that the Pastor in question, since he had faith, put the Lord, our G*D, to the test. He did not mock the Lord. But yes, the Pastor deceived himself.

    History and tradition have a way of providing an inoculation against such foolishness. Since I am Catholic, let me point out that the Catholic Church, having gone through numerous pandemics, knows well enough to respect the Lord’s creation to “come in out of the rain.” But even respect for creation does not exempt one from suffering.

    felipe (023cc9)

  15. Nic (896fdf) — 4/14/2020 @ 7:04 pm

    I wholeheartedly agree with you!

    felipe (023cc9)

  16. nk (1d9030) — 4/14/2020 @ 6:49 pm

    Heh. Very good point.

    felipe (023cc9)

  17. If I were representing the churches, I would bring in a psychiatrist/psychologist to testify how ritual prayer in a full church service produces an altered state of consciousness that cannot be duplicated by any other means (and that’s a fact), and ask the court to consider it as a mental health issue as well as a freedom of religion issue. This being California, it might be the argument with more traction.

    nk (1d9030)

  18. Hopefully the churches will win the lawsuit. As long as social distancing is observed. As stated. Pot and liquor stores are open, but churches are closed. And that makes sense because, why?

    rcocean (1a839e)

  19. Your life on earth is only temporary and meant to prepare us for life with Him. God bless those willing to fight to protect our rights to honor our Lord.

    NJRob (49d5fe)

  20. Ecclesiastes 10:1-3 (MSG):

    “Dead flies in perfume make it stink,
    And a little foolishness decomposes much wisdom.
    Wise thinking leads to right living;
    Stupid thinking leads to wrong living.
    Fools on the road have no sense of direction.
    The way they walk tells the story: ‘There goes the fool again!'”

    Paul Montagu (0073cc)

  21. ‘Meanwhile, a Virginia pastor who said God was “larger than the virus,” has died from coronavirus: An evangelical pastor died of COVID-19 just weeks after proudly showing off how packed his Virginia church was — and vowing to keep preaching “unless I’m in jail or the hospital.’”

    Howzabout from your grave – or maybe it’s just God’s way of putting these evagelical quacks out of a job:

    “A fellow was stuck on his rooftop in a flood. He was praying to God for help. Soon a man in a rowboat came by and the fellow shouted to the man on the roof, “Jump in, I can save you.” The stranded fellow shouted back, “No, it’s OK, I’m praying to God and he is going to save me.”

    So the rowboat went on.

    Then a motorboat came by. “The fellow in the motorboat shouted, “Jump in, I can save you.” To this the stranded man said, “No thanks, I’m praying to God and he is going to save me. I have faith.”

    So the motorboat went on.

    Then a helicopter came by and the pilot shouted down, “Grab this rope and I will lift you to safety.” To this the stranded man again replied, “No thanks, I’m praying to God and he is going to save me. I have faith.”

    So the helicopter reluctantly flew away.

    Soon the water rose above the rooftop and the man drowned. He went to Heaven. He finally got his chance to discuss this whole situation with God, at which point he exclaimed, “I had faith in you but you didn’t save me, you let me drown. I don’t understand why!”

    To this God replied, “I sent you a rowboat and a motorboat and a helicopter, what [the hell] more did you expect?”

    Arrest and throw the ‘good book’ hard and fast at these imbecile purveyors of self-righteous stupidity who thumb their noses at common sense and endanger themselves and others with attention-grabbing ignorance.

    Idiots.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  22. No one, not one, no matter who he is, or who he believes himself to be, is essential to God. Ever. And if believers want to to talk to God, His line is always open and He stands at the ready to listen, 24/7.
    Dana (0feb77) — 4/14/2020 @ 6:17 pm

    The first sentence has the unhappy capacity to confuse many souls. The weak of faith may be tempted to think:
    “Then I am unessential, and being unessential, perhaps unloved, and if unloved, then unwanted.”
    This way lies despair. Why would the Lord create me at all, if not out of love? G*D is Love. If my existence were not essential to He who said “I AM,” then Love has no purpose, God had no purpose. Why then, make any effort to save Man who is unessential to G*D?

    The second sentence is absolutely correct and betrays the first sentence.

    felipe (023cc9) — 4/14/2020 @ 6:53 pm

    Essential is defined as “absolutely necessary”. If Bishop Glen believed that he was absolutely necessary to God and His existence, then he is indeed mocking God – who is complete in Himself. If the bishop had said, “God is essential to me,” then he would have had it right. God is wholly sovereign and divine, and does not *need* man as we need Him. He is fully functional apart from us in every way. We are the living expression of His love. We are the gift He fashioned with His hands. We are the privileged receptacles of His love. No, we are not essential to God’s existence. He is absolutely essential to ours.

    Dana (0feb77)

  23. https://amgreatness.com/2020/04/14/masterpiece-cakeshop-sued-again-over-transgender-cake/

    And to show the left will never stop keeping their boot on your face…

    But keep supporting the left and thinking those thoughts that it won’t happen to you and your loved ones.

    NJRob (4d595c)

  24. If Bishop Glen believed that he was absolutely necessary to God and His existence, then he is indeed mocking God – who is complete in Himself.

    I interpreted it as his saying his church is essential to its members, like the grocery store is essential to its customers.

    Dave (1bb933)

  25. https://amgreatness.com/2020/04/14/masterpiece-cakeshop-sued-again-over-transgender-cake/

    And to show the left will never stop keeping their boot on your face…

    But keep supporting the left and thinking those thoughts that it won’t happen to you and your loved ones.

    NJRob (4d595c) — 4/14/2020 @ 10:33 pm

    I know you aren’t listening, but please listen:

    One bad thing from the left doesn’t mean it’s “supporting the left” to criticize a republican. One bad thing from the left doesn’t mean it’s OK to march in lockstep. These bad things generally come from devoted partisans.

    Democrat governors are quoting the federalist papers right now. It’s amazing where the GOP is at this time.

    It is very easy to pick a few weird examples of bad stuff from the other side, from Fox or PJMedia or Gatewaypundit, breathlessly presented, and insist this all that matters. Both sides do this and both sides get dumber for it.

    Dustin (c56600)

  26. The leader of your local Mormon congregation also carries the title “Bishop”, unless you happen to be in an unusually small congregation. In that case, the title would be “Branch President”.

    I once knew a bishop in Reno who was previously in the Secret Service, and then became an ICE officer to avoid a mandatory transfer. He had a photo of himself with Sarah Palin. Anyway, he would pack a handgun in the small of his back while on the job, and he did the same as he was presiding over church services on Sunday. He told a fellow law enforcement officer (who was also carrying) in the congregation that if anything went down, the onus would be on the two of them. Needless to say, nothing went down. In fact, I’ve never heard of any shooting in any Mormon Sunday worship service anywhere.

    Mormons take science seriously, so they would not risk exposure to the virus in the name of God. Thy cancelled meetings and brought home all their missionaries worldwide. Even their temples are closed. My nephew was hoping for a temple wedding on May 2nd, but now he’s going to have to settle for a civil marriage. He plans to go to the temple when things re-open so that he can make the marriage “for eternity”. Me? I’d wait until my golden years to see how the marriage was going before I took on the afterlife contract, but hey, I’m just a cynical inactive Mormon. :)

    norcal (a5428a)

  27. In fact, I’ve never heard of any shooting in any Mormon Sunday worship service anywhere.

    1 dead, 1 wounded in shooting at Nevada Mormon church; suspect in custody

    :-(

    Dave (1bb933)

  28. No, we are not essential to God’s existence. He is absolutely essential to ours.
    Dana (0feb77) — 4/14/2020 @ 10:16 pm

    I agree with this. It is unambiguous, unlike your earlier statement.

    felipe (023cc9)

  29. I interpreted it as his saying his church is essential to its members, like the grocery store is essential to its customers.
    Dave (1bb933) — 4/14/2020 @ 11:13 pm

    That is quite reasonable, and likely.

    felipe (023cc9)

  30. I find it curious that the suit is filed in Federal court. Maybe the reasoning is that it deals with a uniquely federal matter, but I think that’s wrong.

    Anyhow, if there is a difference between commercial establishments and churches wrt social distancing, the suit has merit (in some court).

    Ragspierre (d9bec9)

  31. I think reasonable accommodations for religious observance should be made.
    I’ve made the analogy to fire codes in other threads and so far no one has presented why that logic doesn’t apply.

    Putting too many people in a room is a fire hazard.
    Putting too many people in a room today is a health hazard.

    The definition of too many is a fact based exercise that might depend on size of room and how long people will be in one spot.

    Time123 (d1bf33)

  32. Emanuel: Yes, restarting the economy has to be done in stages, and it does have to start with more physical distancing at a work site that allows people who are at lower risk to come back. Certain kinds of construction, or manufacturing or offices, in which you can maintain six-foot distances are more reasonable to start sooner. Larger gatherings — conferences, concerts, sporting events — when people say they’re going to reschedule this conference or graduation event for October 2020, I have no idea how they think that’s a plausible possibility. I think those things will be the last to return. Realistically we’re talking fall 2021 at the earliest.

    Restaurants where you can space tables out, maybe sooner. In Hong Kong, Singapore and other places, we’re seeing resurgences when they open up and allow more activity. It’s going to be this roller coaster, up and down.

    Pretty on-topic. It will be awhile before we return to anything approaching “normal”. Churches may be some of the last places to open up, and that will require some very good legal drafting.

    Ragspierre (d9bec9)

  33. I agreed with the Reverend when he said that God was “larger than the virus”. He sure is. Larger than the Earth, the Milky Way and the billion other galaxies that he brought into existence. Unfortunately, some folks find it more important to display their righteousness and show off their religiosity than to be concerned about God’s other children.

    God is larger than any building but some act like they are doing His work by packing into one of them… during a pandemic.

    noel (4d3313)

  34. The document says reopening communities in this phased approach “will entail a significant risk of resurgence of the virus.” Any reopening must meet four conditions:

    Incidence of infection is “genuinely low.”
    A “well functioning” monitoring system capable of “promptly detecting any increase in incidence” of infection.
    A public health system that is “reacting robustly” to all cases of covid-19 and has surge capacity to react to an increase in cases.
    A health system that has enough inpatient beds and staffing to rapidly scale up and deal with a surge in cases.

    The plan describes the conditions under which it is reasonable to lift some community mitigation measures, the phased steps to reduce those measures and indicators to monitor the impact of transmission on public health and health system capacities.

    Read the whole thing…https://www.washingtonpost.com/health/2020/04/14/cdc-fema-have-created-plan-reopen-america-heres-what-it-says/

    Ragspierre (d9bec9)

  35. https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2020/04/10/virginia-governor-northam-signs-gun-control-measures-law/5129936002/

    Yeah Dustin,

    So much respect for our rights that they take them away while declaring the right to assemble to protest these actions illegal.

    NJRob (4d595c)

  36. NJRob, is this news to you?

    I’ve been fighting gun control laws for 50 years.

    Ragspierre (d9bec9)

  37. OT I guess, but still. Because Trump insisted on having his signature put on the stimulus check, something never done before by a president, the checks were delayed a few days in getting sent out. Because he doesn’t have actual power to sign the checks, they put his signature in the memo line.

    Narcissus himself would probably find this embarrassing. But I’m sure there’ll be a Trump supporter somewhere to tell me this is perfectly normal, and really sticking it to the libs, and something Obama did sometime was way more egotistical.

    Victor (4355e3)

  38. Well, way down here in the Rio Grande Valley, the county commissioners imposed strict stay-at-home or secure-in-place ordinances, closed all non-essential businesses, and basically shut down the economy.

    Now, the thing is that the state of Texas is not, as far as I know, under similar restrictions. Different counties have different restrictions. Gov. Abbott did declare churches essential businesses, however the county commissioner closed the Basilica of the Virgen of San Juan, which is the most visited National Shrine in North America.

    It has the most beautiful pathway, with magnificent bronzes marking each Station of the Cross. I had intended to make my annual pilgrimage there to contemplate, meditate and pray, maybe take some pictures.

    Ordinarily, on Easter weekend, there would be well over 10,000 flocking to the Shrine, walking the pathway, attending mass, giving confession, taking communion, but not this year. It was closed.

    So I did what I do every Easter Sunday, since 1970, listened to Jesus Christ Superstar.

    I truly believe it is among, if not the greatest, rock operas ever recorded. Hey, Tim Rice (lyrics) and Andrew Lloyd Webber (music) really accomplished something on the original album. They took their inspiration from a Bob Dylan song, “With God on Our Side,” and based their opera on the Synoptic Gospels and Fulton J. Sheen’s book, Life of Christ, which compares and coordinates the Four Gospels. Rice and Webber stayed true to Scripture, but they did add a Humanist approach and made Judas more sympathetic. That outraged Jewish, Catholic and Protestant groups, who called the album blasphemous. I think it’s just good music.

    The album focusses on the relationship between Jesus (Ian Gillan), Judas (Murray Head), and Mary Magdalene (Yvonne Elliman), which is not covered in the Gospels, but I think is a brilliant approach. Most of the instrumentalists came from Joe Crocker’s backup band, interestingly enough.

    I’ve never seen the Broadway play, even though it came down here on a national tour about ten years ago. I just didn’t want to go; I’m all about the original album. I didn’t care much for the movie either, because it changed some of the lyrics, deleted and added some songs, and had to include scenes to tanks rolling across the desert, as if the Christ story was an anti-Viet Nam War anthem. Which is not what Rice and Webber intended the album to be.

    So, Easter Sunday, I couldn’t make my pilgrimage to the Shrine, walk the Stations of the Cross, give confession, take communion, attend mass, and all that. I listened to Jesus Christ Superstar instead, which I would have done anyway before I made my pilgrimage.

    That evening there was a network production of the play. I turned it on, just to check it out. It was unwatchable. Of course, they had to have a black Jesus, if only to create more controversy.

    The cast, the set design, the costumes, the choreography, even the musicians were all terrible. It was like some horrid hip hop version of a great rock opera.

    Rice and Webber were at least honest in their interpretation. They didn’t blaspheme the Gospel or s or denigrate any faith. They didn’t delve into politics. They simply retold the Crist story in the modern vernacular and gave it a beat. That’s a Western tradition going all the way back to Beowulf.

    In the end, they left matters of faith up to the listening audience. Which is as it should be in any retelling of the Christ story. I never saw the play, didn’t like the movie, but this television production sucked. Give me the original album every day, and twice on Easter Sunday.

    Gawain's Ghost (b25cd1)

  39. So much respect for our rights that they take them away while declaring the right to assemble to protest these actions illegal.

    NJRob (4d595c) — 4/15/2020 @ 7:16 am

    Sir,

    Read my comment again. Try to understand my point. The democrats doing something you disagree with,does not mean that everyone who criticizes republicans is supporting this thing you disagree with. Finding every outrage from the other side is a tedious justification for supporting your side, and both sides doing this has led to a hopelessly broken political climate.

    I would rather work with people who support rights to speech or self defense because of their principles or love for our constitution than those who support a political party, wherever that leads you, such as today’s absurd GOP.

    Dustin (c56600)

  40. Dustin,

    my point is working with those on the left that put Northam into office, put Biden into office, put any leftist that votes in lockstep with Schumer, Pelosi, etc will take away your rights no matter how fare and reasonable they seem.

    That’s reality.

    NJRob (4d595c)

  41. But that’s not reality at all. Trump spent more money and effort helping Schumer and Pelosi than everyone commenting at this blog combined.

    Condemning misconduct in one party is not ‘working with those on the left’ or helping the left ‘keep its boot on your face’ just because that’s the other party.

    In fact, seeing things that way is the only reason either ‘side’ gets to abuse our rights. It’s how they manipulate continued power.

    It’s better to think of Trump and Schumer as belonging to the same political party that happens to have two names.

    Dustin (c56600)

  42. Dustin,

    it is when all you do is condemn Trump and say he must be defeated at any cost. We are seeing the cost firsthand and it is ugly.

    NJRob (4d595c)

  43. But we are just going to go in circles on this because we both feel our ends are justified. It probably matters that I’m in a leftist enclave and see its effects more than you do.

    NJRob (4d595c)

  44. Did Gryph say he’s from South Dakota? Apparently, he has the ear of the governor. https://nypost.com/2020/04/14/coronavirus-cases-skyrocket-in-south-dakota/ But I guess not the ears of his customers if they’re staying away even though there is not, and has not been, a lockdown order.

    nk (1d9030)

  45. Nk,

    that’s a bogus statistic and you know it. 300 positives from the Smithfield plant which is a necessary business and would be open anywhere.

    Meanwhile, 934 of the state’s total 1168 cases have been reported in Minnehaha County, where Sioux Falls and the plant are located. There are 8691 negative tests.

    There are also higher testing rates in South Dakota than elsewhere.

    A population of 884,659 for the state and a total of 6 deaths attributed to this virus. But you want to shut down the entire state.

    https://doh.sd.gov/news/coronavirus.aspx

    NJRob (4d595c)

  46. I was only pointing out that there is no lockdown order in South Dakota and if Gryph lost his job it was because his customers are self-isolating without government coercion. But I can see how it can seem that I was focused on the clickbait headline. I was not.

    nk (1d9030)

  47. Fair enough. My apologies.

    I was just about to link all the stats from NJ to show our lockdown is less effective and our rights are still being trampled.

    Thank you for saving me the time. Our governor is sure enjoying this newfound power at our expense.

    NJRob (4d595c)

  48. Our governor is sure enjoying this newfound power at our expense.

    And you know this, how?

    Dave (1bb933)

  49. Rcocean, at 18: liquor stores have to remain open because otherwise alcoholics will go into withdrawal and flood the hospitals. since hospital flooding is what we’re trying to avoid, that would be a really bad outcome.

    But in a store you’re going in, getting what you need, and going out. For a church service, you’re staying in a confined physical space with other people that aren’t part of your household, for up to an hour. Stores aren’t the right comparison, *restaurants* are. And restaurants are closed.

    I think parking lot services run like old drive-in movie theatres are fine. But in a world where it’s illegal to gather in a park with your friends, and illegal to be in confined spaces with strangers in general, churches aren’t being singled out or discriminated against. And the fact that it’s a religious service doesn’t make the flock immune to transmission of the virus.

    ———

    nk, at 17: you could make the same argument that attendance at a music festival produces an altered state of consciousness that cannot be duplicated by other means, and ask a court to consider it a mental health issue.

    you’d be right that it produces the altered state of consciousness, and you’d be wrong that doing so means the events should be exempt from the shutdown order.

    ——

    Time123, at 32: i think that’s a good explanation and analogy. the problem with indoor church services is that they have too many people in a confined space for too long a period of time. this is why the drive-in church services are fine.

    ——-

    Gawain’s Ghost, at 39: that’s Andrew Lloyd Webber’s best work, IMO.

    aphrael (7962af)

  50. But in a store you’re going in, getting what you need, and going out. For a church service, you’re staying in a confined physical space with other people that aren’t part of your household, for up to an hour. Stores aren’t the right comparison, *restaurants* are.

    Which is why restrictions are going to require careful legal drafting to survive scrutiny. Some “time and space” formula seems to recommend itself.

    Ragspierre (d9bec9)

  51. 43… NJ Rob is right, of course…

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  52. it is when all you do is condemn Trump and say he must be defeated at any cost. We are seeing the cost firsthand and it is ugly.

    NJRob (4d595c) — 4/15/2020 @ 8:48 am

    well Haiku says you’re right so, ya know, nobody talk mean about Trump no more cause of gun control and them transgender cakes.

    I just got HANNITIZED!

    Dustin (c56600)

  53. Rob has your number.

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  54. well Haiku says you’re right so, ya know, nobody talk mean about Trump no more cause of gun control and them transgender cakes.

    I just got HANNITIZED!

    Dustin (c56600) — 4/15/2020 @ 10:45 am

    Lots of snark. Not much respect. Whatever works for you.

    NJRob (4d595c)

  55. Your logic is incredible so maybe you can help me understand one thing: I criticize democrats all the time. I bash Biden as a creeper all the time. So does that mean I’m a loyal Trump supporter?

    Binary choice doesn’t work if you just call ’em like you see them and don’t give a crap about some political party that doesn’t give a crap about you right back.

    Dustin (c56600)

  56. Respect is earned. Deficits are a b!tch!

    Ragspierre (d9bec9)

  57. 56… good news!

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  58. Dave @28,

    Mea culpa. I should have considered how long it’s been since I attended church. Or done an internet search.

    norcal (a5428a)


Powered by WordPress.

Page loaded in: 0.3541 secs.