Patterico's Pontifications

4/7/2020

Memo Warned White House Of Possible ‘Full Blown Pandemic’ Back in January

Filed under: General — Dana @ 9:17 am



[guest post by Dana]

The New York Times reports that White House trade adviser Peter Navarro sent a memo to the National Security Council and other administration officials, including then acting chief of staff, Mick Mulvaney, warning about a possible pandemic. The report notes that it is not known whether President Trump saw the memo:

A top White House adviser starkly warned Trump administration officials in late January that the coronavirus crisis could cost the United States trillions of dollars and put millions of Americans at risk of illness or death.

The warning, written in a memo by Peter Navarro, President Trump’s trade adviser, is the highest-level alert known to have circulated inside the West Wing as the administration was taking its first substantive steps to confront a crisis that had already consumed China’s leaders and would go on to upend life in Europe and the United States.

“The lack of immune protection or an existing cure or vaccine would leave Americans defenseless in the case of a full-blown coronavirus outbreak on U.S. soil,” Mr. Navarro’s memo said. “This lack of protection elevates the risk of the coronavirus evolving into a full-blown pandemic, imperiling the lives of millions of Americans.”

Mr. Navarro said in the memo that the administration faced a choice about how aggressive to be in containing an outbreak, saying the human and economic costs would be relatively low if it turned out to be a problem along the lines of a seasonal flu.

But he went on to emphasize that the “risk of a worst-case pandemic scenario should not be overlooked” given the information coming from China.

The memo was dated January 29. This was the same day that the White House announced the formation of the Coronavirus Task Force. One day later, WHO declared a global health emergency and President Trump said during a speech in Michigan, that there was nothing to worry about:

“We think we have it very well under control. We have very little problem in this country at this moment — five — and those people are all recuperating successfully. But we’re working very closely with China and other countries, and we think it’s going to have a very good ending for us … that I can assure you.”

On January 31, the United States enacted travel restrictions on China.

A partial breakdown of the memo:

The Jan. 29 memo set out two stark choices: “Aggressive Containment versus No Containment.”

Navarro compared cost estimates for the choices and wrote that the Council of Economic Advisers’ estimates for stopping travel from China to the U.S. would be $2.9 billion per month. If the virus turned out to be a pandemic, that travel ban could extend 12 months and cost the U.S. $34.6 billion.
Doing nothing (the “No Containment” option) could range from “zero economic costs” to $5.7 trillion depending on the lethality of the virus.

On February 23, Navarro sent another memo. This came three days after the WHO reported that there were nearly 77,000 cases worldwide in 27 countries. In the memo, he warned of an “increasing probability of a full-blown COVID-19 pandemic that could infect as many as 100 million Americans, with a loss of life of as many as 1.2 million souls.”

One day after the second memo was sent, President Trump told Americans that the situation was “very much under control”:

Especially significant:

…the memo called for an increase funding for the government to purchase personal protective equipment for health care workers, estimating they would need “at least a billion face masks” over a four-to-six-month period.

Ultimately:

Mr. Navarro’s memo is evidence that some in the upper ranks of the administration had at least considered the possibility of the outbreak turning into something far more serious than Mr. Trump was acknowledging publicly at the time.

The memos appear to undercut President Trump’s continued claims that everything was under control, when in fact, it wasn’t. On March 17, the President admitted that it was a pandemic, while giving himself a pat on the back:

“This is a pandemic. I felt it was a pandemic long before it was called a pandemic.”

–Dana

218 Responses to “Memo Warned White House Of Possible ‘Full Blown Pandemic’ Back in January”

  1. Good morning.

    Dana (4fb37f)

  2. And I warned about the possibility of a police state back in mid-March, but here we are. SMDH

    Gryph (08c844)

  3. And I warned about the possibility of a police state back in mid-March, but here we are.

    Kewl, one warning was accurate, one was not. Would you care to guess which is which?

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827)

  4. 3. Well, your definition of a “police state” differs from mine, I guess. Jack Dunphy would love to have a word with you.

    Gryph (08c844)

  5. We got Trump now! The walls are closing in. He KNEW about the pandemic because the CDC, no that’s not right. The doctors, no that’s not right either. Oh, now I remember. His trade Rep warned him. Of course. Who knows more about pandemics then a Trade Rep, who didn’t write a memo to Trump but to someone else?

    Anyway, are facts really necessary? Like Trump-Russia, this is the new MSM party-line attack on Trump. HE KNEW ABOUT THE VIRUS AND DID NOT ACT IN TIME. Yeah, Trump lied and people died. Too bad he didn’t listen to Chinatown Pelosi. Or Joe “don’t shut down travel from China” Biden.

    rcocean (1a839e)

  6. Trump has acted brilliantly in this crisis. He didn’t shut down the country but waited for all the facts. He stopped travel from China and the EU, when all the liberals/Never Trumpers were screeching “Xenophobe!” “Racist!”. He’s gone along with the experts and advised states to shut down and flatten the curve. He’s worked like the devil to get the states the right medical equipment. He’s at the briefings almost every day trying to reassure the country and answer people’s questions.

    The results so far are spectacular. We’re not even close to “Millions dead”. We’re not even close to “100,000 dead”.

    rcocean (1a839e)

  7. Yeah, Trump lied and people died.

    True.

    Paul Montagu (f57f23)

  8. “He stopped travel from China and the EU”

    No he didn’t.

    Davethulhu (3857ea)

  9. According to the numbers, we have 12,000 dead with 350,000 active cases. If you assume a 10% death rate, that still only 47,000 dead. New cases since yesterday? Only 13,000.

    rcocean (1a839e)

  10. No he didn’t.

    Yeah, because if you interpret the sentence in the dumbest way possible, you’re absolutely correct.

    rcocean (1a839e)

  11. “Yeah, because if you interpret the sentence in the dumbest way possible, you’re absolutely correct.”

    I consider the source.

    Davethulhu (3857ea)

  12. Trump has acted brilliantly in this crisis.

    You are hilarious. Perfection, 10 out of 10.

    That is some serious satire.

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827)

  13. . Well, your definition of a “police state” differs from mine, I guess. Jack Dunphy would love to have a word with you.

    So your example of a police state is a man breaking a public ordinance getting a ticket?

    My definition of a police state is the definition of a police state: a political unit characterized by repressive governmental control of political, economic, and social life usually by an arbitrary exercise of power by police and especially secret police in place of regular operation of administrative and judicial organs of the government according to publicly known legal procedures.

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827)

  14. rcocean,

    If you go to the link at Axios, you can view the memo.

    Unfortunately, according to the NYT report, the very people who should have been concerned (White House officials) and moved on the information, dismissed Navarro as an “alarmist” and considered his policies “unsustainable”.

    Dana (4fb37f)

  15. Yeah, because if you interpret the sentence in the dumbest way possible, you’re absolutely correct.

    Or, maybe, the words are taken as they are given. The tens of thousands of people who traveled back and forth from China after the “ban” make your sentence a flat lie. So 100% consistent with past statements.

    The Trump administration did impose travel restrictions between China and the U.S., and later Europe and the U.S., but both actions have loopholes large enough to fly a 777 through. In the case of China, on Jan. 31 — weeks after it was known that the coronavirus was a serious problem — the administration restricted travel for “foreign nationals who had been in China in the last 14 days.”

    That means that Americans — just as capable as carrying and transmitting a contagious viral infection as foreigners — had free passage between China and the U.S. And so daily flights between China and the U.S. continued. (And yes, even these limited restrictions were slammed as being too punitive at the time.)

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827)

  16. @9-
    The “official” numbers assume that states are, and have in the past, fully reported their caseloads and deaths with 100% accuracy.

    Coronavirus death toll: Americans are almost certainly dying of covid-19 but being left out of the official count
    The fast-spreading novel coronavirus is almost certainly killing Americans who are not included in the nation’s growing death toll, according to public health experts and government officials involved in the tally.

    The U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention counts only deaths in which the presence of the coronavirus is confirmed in a laboratory test. “We know that it is an underestimation,” agency spokeswoman Kristen Nordlund said.

    A widespread lack of access to testing in the early weeks of the U.S. outbreak means people with respiratory illnesses died without being counted, epidemiologists say. Even now, some people who die at home or in overburdened nursing homes are not being tested, according to funeral directors, medical examiners and nursing home representatives. …….

    As a result, public health officials and government leaders lack a complete view of the pandemic’s death toll as they assess its course and scramble to respond.

    Scientists who analyze mortality statistics from influenza and other respiratory illnesses say it is too early to estimate how many fatalities have gone unrecorded. For a disease with common symptoms such as covid-19, they said, deaths with positive results almost certainly represent only a fraction of the total caused by the disease.

    “You can’t rely on just the laboratory-confirmed cases,” said Marc-Alain Widdowson, an epidemiologist who left the CDC last year and now serves as director of the Institute of Tropical Medicine Antwerp in Belgium. “You’re never going to apply the test on everybody who is ill and everybody who dies. So without doubt — it’s a truism — the number of deaths are underestimated globally because you don’t apply the test.”
    …..
    The federal government’s death count is broadcast around the world daily as an indicator of how quickly the virus is spreading and how profoundly the nation is struggling. It has clear political implications for President Trump, whose approval ratings rose in late March despite his having downplayed the virus’s dangers for weeks.
    …..
    The death toll has become a heavily politicized benchmark. Trump’s defenders say the official number is inflated because it includes all deceased people who tested positive for covid-19, even if there was another cause of death, such as a heart attack or an accident.

    Marc Lipsitch, a professor of epidemiology at Harvard, said there are probably some people dying with covid-19 who are not dying of covid-19. Such misattribution is a problem for any cause of death, he said, but it is a minor issue that is “swamped by the opposite problem: deaths that are caused by covid but never attributed, so the death count is underestimated.” …..

    RipMurdock (d2a2a8)

  17. He stopped travel from China

    rcocean,

    I was very clear and specific in the post, saying that “The U.S. enacted travel restrictions on China”. That statement linked directly to the White House’s “Proclamation on Suspension of Entry as Immigrants and Nonimmigrants of Persons who Pose a Risk of Transmitting 2019 Novel Coronavirus”:

    NOW, THEREFORE, I, DONALD J. TRUMP, President of the United States, by the authority vested in me by the Constitution and the laws of the United States of America, including sections 212(f) and 215(a) of the Immigration and Nationality Act (INA), 8 U.S.C. 1182(f) and 1185(a), and section 301 of title 3, United States Code, hereby find that the unrestricted entry into the United States of persons described in section 1 of this proclamation would, except as provided for in section 2 of this proclamation, be detrimental to the interests of the United States, and that their entry should be subject to certain restrictions, limitations, and exceptions.

    Dana (4fb37f)

  18. Yeah, the Drumpfelchnitzel is such a great leader, we no longer have a Navy.

    It was the mayors and governors who led. Trump followed. It was not Trump who closed down O’Hare to international flights. It was Governor Pritzker. You see, J. B. Pritker’s daughter and in-laws do not have business partnerships with the Chinese.

    nk (1d9030)

  19. 569 millikohns and trending…

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  20. He stopped travel from China and the EU, when all the liberals/Never Trumpers were screeching “Xenophobe!” “Racist!”.

    Well, the first statement has been identified as a lie.

    Put up SEVERAL links supporting the second statement. Because “all” means allllll.

    Ragspierre (d9bec9)

  21. @14 Dana
    RCocean doesn’t care about facts nearly as much as he cares about public displays of respect for his tribe’s mascot. He justifies this by complaining that other people are also inaccurate. The more critical the post/comment or the more egregious the screw up by Trump the less focused his response.

    @RCocean, Trump denied there was a serious problem for far too long and wasted time that could have been spent preparing. This is yet another example of people in positions of power within his administration correctly identifying that this problem was likely. I know that the only thing you care about is that he’s disliked by people you dislike but that’s not the only metric by which to judge him.

    Time123 (b87ded)

  22. The best estimate isn’t 47,000 dead Americans, rc. The latest UW modeling has 82,000 Americans no longer breathing because of this virus, which is nothing to spike a football over.
    The greatest nation in the history of mankind should’ve done a LOT better, and that’s on Trump for not taking the virus seriously until they canceled March Madness. “Seriously” can be easily defined as doing it like South Korea, creating thousands of tests only two weeks after first detection. Doing so would’ve meant NOT shutting down an economy because, with testing, a trace-trace-test methodology could’ve been used.
    And before other Trump sycophants start downtalking the virus, H1N1 only killed 138 in the first 81 days since first detection, while this virus has killed 12,230 in the first 77 days since first detection.

    Paul Montagu (f57f23)

  23. Again, the mind-reading and false bravado comes into play.

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  24. The best estimate isn’t 47,000 dead Americans, rc. The latest UW modeling has 82,000 Americans no longer breathing because of this virus, which is nothing to spike a football over.

    Yes, nothing to spike a football over. It’s also nothing to destroy the economy and ruin the future of our young people over.

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  25. No “mind-reading” required to know that ANY reading by your Great Goad Cheeto would have been a probable game-changer.

    But he’s carefully built an administration of dunces who seek to kiss his ample, corrupt rump. That makes reading for them difficult, too.

    Ragspierre (d9bec9)

  26. It’s also nothing to destroy the economy and ruin the future of our young people over.

    You need to get on the horn to the WH, if your man-crush isn’t out playing golf. Again.

    Ragspierre (d9bec9)

  27. New York City – the nation’s financial and media HQ – is projecting its fears and trepidation across America and promoting panic over reason.

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  28. I was very clear and specific in the post, saying that “The U.S. enacted travel restrictions on China”. That statement linked directly to the White House’s “Proclamation on Suspension of Entry as Immigrants and Nonimmigrants of Persons who Pose a Risk of Transmitting 2019 Novel Coronavirus”:

    That’s nice. Thanks for being specific.

    rcocean (1a839e)

  29. 27. That’s at least a new talking point, up slightly from the boob who was predicting that the whole deal would be revealed a hoax by the media.

    Ragspierre (d9bec9)

  30. It’s also nothing to destroy the economy and ruin the future of our young people over.

    And that’s Mr. I-Don’t-Take-Responsibility’s fault.

    That the pandemic occurred is not Trump’s fault. The utter unpreparedness of the United States for a pandemic is Trump’s fault. The loss of stockpiled respirators to breakage because the federal government let maintenance contracts lapse in 2018 is Trump’s fault. The failure to store sufficient protective medical gear in the national arsenal is Trump’s fault. That states are bidding against other states for equipment, paying many multiples of the precrisis price for ventilators, is Trump’s fault. Air travelers summoned home and forced to stand for hours in dense airport crowds alongside infected people? That was Trump’s fault too. Ten weeks of insisting that the coronavirus is a harmless flu that would miraculously go away on its own? Trump’s fault again. The refusal of red-state governors to act promptly, the failure to close Florida and Gulf Coast beaches until late March? That fault is more widely shared, but again, responsibility rests with Trump: He could have stopped it, and he did not.
    The lying about the coronavirus by hosts on Fox News and conservative talk radio is Trump’s fault: They did it to protect him. The false hope of instant cures and nonexistent vaccines is Trump’s fault, because he told those lies to cover up his failure to act in time. The severity of the economic crisis is Trump’s fault; things would have been less bad if he had acted faster instead of sending out his chief economic adviser and his son Eric to assure Americans that the first stock-market dips were buying opportunities. The firing of a Navy captain for speaking truthfully about the virus’s threat to his crew? Trump’s fault. The fact that so many key government jobs were either empty or filled by mediocrities? Trump’s fault. The insertion of Trump’s arrogant and incompetent son-in-law as commander in chief of the national medical supply chain? Trump’s fault.
    For three years, Trump has blathered and bluffed and bullied his way through an office for which he is utterly inadequate. But sooner or later, every president must face a supreme test, a test that cannot be evaded by blather and bluff and bullying. That test has overwhelmed Trump.
    Trump failed. He is failing. He will continue to fail. And Americans are paying for his failures.

    Trump lied, Americans died. It wasn’t just a supreme hyperpartisan like Navarro who saw it coming, the Americans in our intelligence community saw it, too. Maybe if Putin gave him a heads up, Trump might’ve listened.

    Paul Montagu (f57f23)

  31. Yes, nothing to spike a football over. It’s also nothing to destroy the economy and ruin the future of our young people over.

    That’s 82,000 people dead through June. We know that additional deaths will be over the summer, and most likely return in the fall/winter. So saying 81k is misleadingly low, it will be lucky if the rest of the year doesn’t double the total. Feb-Feb could easily end up 150k-250k, or significantly more if people don’t take it seriously.

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827)

  32. On Jan 29th Trump said we only had five deaths and he was “working with other countries” – sounds pretty reasonable to me.

    rcocean (1a839e)

  33. The Democrats and NEver Trumpers have been hating and attacking Trump over EVERYTHING for almost 4 years. They’ve cried wolf so many times, no one is listening. Of course, they will never stop attacking till Trump is out of office. Then they will go back to defending the President and falling in line and supporting the “Commander in Chief” because he’s Joe Biden. So, its hard to take any of these attacks seriously.

    The truth is, we’ll never understand whether Trump was too slow, or too fast on the trigger, on this Chinese virus pandemic, until the thing is over and experts – who are objective – go back and study it.

    As Trump said, we’re in a war against an invisible enemy. And like any war, mistakes are made, and decisions have to be made real-time using incomplete or even inaccurate information. Personally, I think Trump will be shown to have done a marvelous job.

    rcocean (1a839e)

  34. On Jan 29th Trump said we only had five deaths and he was “working with other countries” – sounds pretty reasonable to me.

    Naturally. Whatever Duh Donald says is like heavenly music to you.

    But, as has been noted above, it was NOT “reasonable” in light of information available to him and his hand picked toadies.

    Where are those links BTW?

    Ragspierre (d9bec9)

  35. The Democrats and NEver Trumpers have been hating and attacking Trump over EVERYTHING for almost 4 years.

    Serious question: can you NOT lie? Is this a condition?

    Ragspierre (d9bec9)

  36. On Jan 29th Trump said we only had five deaths and he was “working with other countries” – sounds pretty reasonable to me.

    And that was the only thing he’s said, right? And we can’t possibly know what else he said, and what has happened since.

    These predate your quotation.

    Jan 21–We do have a plan and we think it’s gonna be handled very well, we’ve already handled it very well. — President Trump to CBS News White House correspondent Paula Reid in Davos, Switzerland.

    Jan 22–“We have it totally under control. It’s one person coming in from China. We have it under control. It’s going to be just fine.” CNBC interview in Davos, Switzerland

    Jan 24–Tweeting…”China has been working very hard to contain the Coronavirus. The United States greatly appreciates their efforts and transparency. It will all work out well. In particular, on behalf of the American People, I want to thank President Xi!”

    Jan 29*–Your date–“Just received a briefing on the Coronavirus in China from all of our GREAT agencies, who are also working closely with China. We will continue to monitor the ongoing developments. We have the best experts anywhere in the world, and they are on top of it 24/7!” the president tweeted.

    After your selection

    Jan 30–We think we have it very well under control. We have very little problem in this country at this moment — five — and those people are all recuperating successfully. But we’re working very closely with China and other countries, and we think it’s going to have a very good ending for us … that I can assure you

    Feb 7–“Just had a long and very good conversation by phone with President Xi of China. He is strong, sharp and powerfully focused on leading the counterattack on the Coronavirus. He feels they are doing very well, even building hospitals in a matter of only days. Nothing is easy, but……he will be successful, especially as the weather starts to warm & the virus hopefully becomes weaker, and then gone. Great discipline is taking place in China, as President Xi strongly leads what will be a very successful operation. We are working closely with China to help!” the president tweeted.

    Feb 23–“We’re very much involved. We’re very — very cognizant of everything going on. We have it very much under control in this country

    Feb 24–“The Coronavirus is very much under control in the USA. We are in contact with everyone and all relevant countries. CDC & World Health have been working hard and very smart. Stock Market starting to look very good to me!” the president tweeted.

    Feb 25–You may ask about the coronavirus, which is very well under control in our country. We have very few people with it, and the people that have it are – in all cases, I have not heard anything other

    Feb 26–I want you to understand something that shocked me when I saw it that — and I spoke with Dr. Fauci on this, and I was really amazed, and I think most people are amazed to hear it: The flu, in our country, kills from 25,000 people to 69,000 people a year. That was shocking to me. And, so far, if you look at what we have with the 15 people and their recovery, one is — one is pretty sick but hopefully will recover, but the others are in great shape. But think of that: 25,000 to 69,000. And again, when you have 15 people, and the 15 within a couple of days is going to be down to close to zero, that’s a pretty good job we’ve done

    Feb 27–It’s going to disappear. One day it’s like a miracle, it will disappear

    Feb 29–we’ve done a great job. And I’ve gotten to know these professionals. They’re incredible. And everything is under control. I mean, they’re very, very cool. They’ve done it, and they’ve done it well. Everything is really under control.

    Feb 29–We’ve taken the most aggressive actions to confront the coronavirus. They are the most aggressive taken by any country and we’re the number one travel destination anywhere in the world, yet we have far fewer cases of the disease then even countries with much less travel or a much smaller population.

    March 4–Yeah, I think where these people are flying, it’s safe to fly. And large portions of the world are very safe to fly. So we don’t want to say anything other than that. And we have closed down certain sections of the world, frankly, and they’ve sort of automatically closed them also. They’ll understand that and they understand it better, perhaps, than anybody. Yes, it’s safe.

    March 6–Anybody that needs a test can get a test. The tests are all perfect, like the letter was perfect, the transcription was perfect, right?

    March 9–So last year 37,000 Americans died from the common flu. It averages between 27,000 and 70,000 per year. Nothing is shut down, life & the economy go on. At this moment there are 546 confirmed cases of CoronaVirus, with 22 deaths. Think about that!

    March 10–Well, this was unexpected. This was something that came out of China, and it hit us and many other countries. You look at the numbers; I see the numbers with just by watching you folks. I see it — it’s over 100 different countries. And it hit the world. And we’re prepared, and we’re doing a great job with it. And it will go away. Just stay calm. It will go away.

    March 12–I mean, think of it: The United States, because of what I did and what the administration did with China, we have 32 deaths at this point. Other countries that are smaller countries have many, many deaths. Thirty-two is a lot. Thirty-two is too many. But when you look at the kind of numbers that you’re seeing coming out of other countries, it’s pretty amazing when you think of it. So, that’s it.

    March 13–We have 40 people right now. Forty. Compare that with other countries that have many, many times that amount. And one of the reasons we have 40 and others have — and, again, that number is going up, just so you understand. And a number of cases, which are very small, relatively speaking — it’s going up. But we’ve done a great job because we acted quickly. We acted early. And there’s nothing we could have done that was better than closing our borders to highly infected areas.

    It’s almost like there are records that we can compare what he actually said and when he said it. History exists.

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827)

  37. The truth is, we’ll never understand whether Trump was too slow, or too fast on the trigger, on this Chinese virus pandemic, until the thing is over and experts – who are objective – go back and study it.

    As Trump said, we’re in a war against an invisible enemy. And like any war, mistakes are made, and decisions have to be made real-time using incomplete or even inaccurate information. Personally, I think Trump will be shown to have done a marvelous job.

    It’s not effing invisible, just because Trump is an idiot, doesn’t mean he wasn’t warned. It was effing visiable to others, hence the entire post was about the warning.

    The amount of twisting of reality to make him not idiotically late is astounding.

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827)

  38. New York City – the nation’s financial and media HQ – is projecting its fears and trepidation across America and promoting panic over reason.

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0) — 4/7/2020 @ 10:49 am

    Maybe they get excited when they have to develop a contingency plan that involves turning a park into a mass grave?

    Time123 (d1bf33)

  39. @36, CK, Trump says many things that are self contradictory. His sycophants pick the ones that are least wrong and point to those as a sign of his greatness. They’ll either ignore your examples or find someone else that was also wrong to justify it.

    Time123 (d1bf33)

  40. They’ve cried wolf so many times, no one is listening.

    It wasn’t “Democrats and NEver Trumpers” who “cried wolf”, it was his own economic adviser and it was American intelligence professionals.

    Paul Montagu (f57f23)

  41. By crying wolf, he means point at the wolf and yelling…uh,wolf, dude, that’s a wolf. Trumpsters respond, Who’s going to pay for that wall, Mexico.

    No, the wolf, over there. Trumpsters…Gina trade deficit, deals, NATO.

    No, that doglike thing chewing on your leg. Trumpster, Mexico gonna pay for that wall.

    Dude, your leg is a bloody stump, seriously, you need to do something about that. Trumpster, democrat hoax, fake news.

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827)

  42. It had to be Navarro. He’s the China hawk who, along with Miller, pushed for trade wars and tariffs, which disrupted supply chains to begin with, especially on medical supplies and equipment, forcing American hospitals and consumers to pay exorbitant amounts for necessary supplies.

    And now he comes out looking like the hero who warned the administration of an impending pandemic? Which the country was ill-prepared to deal with because of the policies he advocated. And Trump ignored his advice? Small wonder that.

    This entire administration is a clusterf#ck. And people are dying. The economy is in a tailspin. Millions are losing their jobs. We’re heading into a deep recession, if not a global depressions, that will make the 2008 financial crisis seem like the common cold.

    And it’s all on Trump. That’s why he’s lashing out in his daily press briefings. He’s to one who gutted the executive branch, stocked it with a rotating ‘active’ staff of sycophants, and even when they do give him good advice, he ignores and excoriates them.

    This is going to get a lot worse before it gets any better.

    Gawain's Ghost (b25cd1)

  43. SO, let me get this straight. On January 29th, Navarro sent a memo warning of a pandemic and advised that a travel ban from China should be enacted. On January 31st it was. The bastard!

    Now, Trump made significant mistakes in February that cannot be blamed on China or WHO, but the thrust of your headline is that Trump ignored Navarro’s memo in January, and the fact is that HE DID NOT.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  44. Acting Navy chief fired Crozier for ‘panicking’ — and before Trump could intervene

    Acting Navy secretary Thomas Modly, in an extensive interview about the firing of the commander of a disease-threatened aircraft carrier, said he acted because he believed the captain was “panicking” under pressure — and wanted to make the move himself, before President Trump ordered the captain’s dismissal.

    “I didn’t want to get into a decision where the president would feel that he had to intervene because the Navy couldn’t be decisive,” Modly told me (David Ignatius) in a telephone call from Hawaii at about 1 a.m. Sunday, Washington time. He continued: “If I were president, and I saw a commanding officer of a ship exercising such poor judgment, I would be asking why the leadership of the Navy wasn’t taking action itself.”

    Modly offered a lengthy account of his actions in the dismissal Thursday of Capt. Brett Crozier, the commanding officer of the USS Theodore Roosevelt. ….

    Modly explained that his predecessor, Navy Secretary Richard Spencer, “lost his job because the Navy Department got crossways with the president” in the Gallagher case. “I didn’t want that to happen again.” The acting secretary reiterated the point later in the conversation: “I put myself in the president’s shoes. I considered how the president felt like he needed to get involved in Navy decisions [in the Gallagher case and the Spencer firing]. I didn’t want that to happen again.”….

    …Navy sources had said Modly told a colleague that Trump “wants him [Crozier] fired,” and though Modly denied getting any direct message to that effect, he clearly understood that Trump was unhappy with the uproar surrounding the Roosevelt. …..

    More CYA from Modly. Apparently Esper ordered him to apologize for his remarks. So heartfelt.

    RipMurdock (d2a2a8)

  45. Mexico gonna pay for that wall.

    This is the tell of a Trump hater. Three years later and you can’t get past it. It’s as obvious as the Trumpist who says that Trump is a stable genius.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  46. Navarro sent a memo warning of a pandemic and advised that a travel ban from China should be enacted. On January 31st it was.

    What “ban”? It’s as if the only available prescription was to restrict travel, and that a playbook never existed.

    Paul Montagu (f57f23)

  47. SO, let me get this straight. On January 29th, Navarro sent a memo warning of a pandemic and advised that a travel ban from China should be enacted. On January 31st it was. The bastard!

    Now, Trump made significant mistakes in February that cannot be blamed on China or WHO, but the thrust of your headline is that Trump ignored Navarro’s memo in January, and the fact is that HE DID NOT.

    Kevin M (ab1c11) — 4/7/2020 @ 11:56 am

    Yeah, how dare people expect the president to do more than 1 thing. What deranged loons who are actually focusing on results compared to other countries (SK & Germany for instance)

    Time123 (d1bf33)

  48. Mexico gonna pay for that wall.

    This is the tell of a Trump hater. Three years later and you can’t get past it. It’s as obvious as the Trumpist who says that Trump is a stable genius.

    Kevin M (ab1c11) — 4/7/2020 @ 12:01 pm

    I think it’s less of a complain that Trump said it, and more of an insult at those who believed it.

    Time123 (d1bf33)

  49. And, without naming names, the semantics-trolls here, who intentionally misinterpret or find some inaccurate word in a post and then attack on that basis for a half-dozen posts are, at best, tiring.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  50. I think it’s less of a complain that Trump said it, and more of an insult at those who believed it.

    As if anyone believed it. I suggest that you could support Trump while not believing that. How many times in the last 2 years have you seen a post by someone who claimed this was going to really happen?

    Other than that, you are right. It is intended as an insult and pejorative argument to use when logic isn’t working.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  51. That’s 82,000 people dead through June. We know that additional deaths will be over the summer, and most likely return in the fall/winter.

    You’d better keep your powder dry and your moonshine flowing…

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  52. @33 If Trump would stop being incompetent people would stop saying he’s incompetent. It isn’t the rest of our faults that he doesn’t know what he’s doing, we are just reluctant to turn a blind eye to his running the country into the ground. The Emperor, he has NO CLOTHES. HE’S NUDE, NAKED, COMPLETELY BARE, PRANCING AROUND IN HIS BIRTHDAY SUIT. If he put some clothes on, he wouldn’t be naked any more and people would stop saying he was. Maybe you should stop telling the rest of us to become more ignorant and tell Trump to get a clue.

    @22 Also, there are fewer deaths (and projected deaths) because of the precautions that have been taken. If we were just wandering around spreading disease, the numbers would be higher.

    Nic (896fdf)

  53. You’d better keep your powder dry and your moonshine flowing…

    So, you think no one is going to die over the summer. Care to actually explain how that happens?

    Colonel Klink (Red) (9878f6)

  54. Colonel Haiku, at 27:

    are you aware that New Orleans has a higher percentage of the population confirmed infected than NYC did?

    the media is focusing on NYC but the crisis is spread throughout the country.

    aphrael (7962af)

  55. People will be dying, as they have a tendency to do that. Have for years…

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  56. Kevin M,

    > …the memo called for an increase funding for the government to purchase personal protective equipment for health care workers, estimating they would need “at least a billion face masks” over a four-to-six-month period.

    Trump appears to have ignored that part of the memo.

    He selectively listened to part of it and ignored part of it, probably based on his preconceived preferences.

    aphrael (7962af)

  57. 54… yes, I’m aware of that. Has no impact on my point.

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  58. People will be dying, as they have a tendency to do that. Have for years…

    Virus, what virus, it’s fine. The projections stop at June 30th, that means that there will be none more, it’s fine. People die, so the reason is unimportant. Good to know.

    Colonel Klink (Red) (9878f6)

  59. People will be dying, as they have a tendency to do that. Have for years…

    True. Why even try to fix people with heart disease or develop cures for cancer, our #1 and #2 killers. Why even take extensive mitigation steps for this virus. Not employing them would only kill more than those who die by heart disease and cancer combined. Folks are going to die anyway. Have for years…

    Paul Montagu (f57f23)

  60. @50, I can’t prove who believed what or when. I can say that a whole lot of people at the time acted like they believed it. I also recall Trump trying to get the President of Mexico to publicly agree to some kind of payment that would be part of a bigger deal. While it is an insult, it’s not entirely unfair.

    Time123 (b87ded)

  61. People will be dying, as they have a tendency to do that. Have for years…

    Hick-ew snaps his fingers. “No biggie”.

    Charles Dickens would LOVE this! Lots of dialog for his villians!

    Ragspierre (d9bec9)

  62. I can say that a whole lot of people at the time acted like they believed it. I also recall Trump trying to get the President of Mexico to publicly agree to some kind of payment

    It was in a T-rump position paper, for cricky sakes!!! He had people chanting about it at his mass indoctrination meetings…er…rallies.

    He was going to embargo monies flowing into Mexico!

    Ragspierre (d9bec9)

  63. @3. Some old cops lack common sense; there’s no fool like an old fool. Ticketing these nose-thumbing idiots can save lives.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  64. 63. Nose thumbing idiots? The people out by themselves not within 100 feet of another human being (outside of perhaps family, who they live with anyway)? What you have right there is the living definition of BUREAUCRAT.

    Gryph (08c844)

  65. People will be dying, as they have a tendency to do that. Have for years…

    Decrease the surplus population….

    Kishnevi (6a5d3c)

  66. Trump was trying to calm the country. In retrospect, his comment was dead wrong. Trump also did a lot of right things. That’s why the US deaths/population is so much lower than most European countries. With the benefit of hindsight, it’s easy to see which of Trump’s actions were good and which were mistakes. Focusing only the mistakes is a cheap shot.

    David in Cal (f8ea8c)

  67. @65. A chain is only as strong as the weakest link; ticketing weak links is by far the softest method to keep them and other living by enforcing COMMON SENSE.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  68. 68. That’s funny. I thought “enforcing common sense” is antithetical to the idea of liberty. Since when was that ever supposed to be the government’s job?

    And not only that, but I was assured by Patterico himself that people doing such things were following the letter and the spirit of the law. In California, even. Is that no longer true? Was he wrong to begin with?

    Gryph (08c844)

  69. @67. This is how a leader calms a country:

    https://www.itv.com/news/2020-04-05/queen-speech-in-full-coronavirus-outbreak-thanks-nhs-frontline-staff/

    Stay calm. Carry on.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  70. @69. =yawn= Golly. If only the citizens of Pompeii had the Constitution to wave at an erupting Vesuvius to stop that pyroclastic flow cold.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  71. Trump was trying to calm the country.

    Why couldn’t Trump “calm and country” and tell the truth? Why resort to lying multiple times on a daily basis?
    It’s a personnel sh*tshow today.
    First, Trump removed the watchdog who was leading lead the group charged with monitoring the coronavirus relief effort.
    Second, he replaced Press Secretary FoxNews Liaision Grisham with an even hackier hack, a gal so hackey that she said, "Trump has never lied."
    Third, Acting Navy Secretary Modly resigned, because the only person who can get away with Trump's management style is Trump and no one else.

    Paul Montagu (f57f23)

  72. #70 Yes, the Queen’s speech was terrific. Trump is a mediocre orator. Still, responding to the crisis based on what we know today is a lot different from early doing so in February, when the threat was not so clear.

    David in Cal (f8ea8c)

  73. Testing. I think my comment got moderated for “s–tshow”. Apparently, one well placed asterick wasn’t enough?

    Paul Montagu (f57f23)

  74. 71. You are really a douchebag, you know that? Shutting down our economy and committing a slow national suicide won’t stop the virus any more than trust in the constitution will.

    And no one seems really eager to address Patterico’s assurances that what was going on in California was not and would not be a police state action, even though it sure looks that way now.

    Gryph (08c844)

  75. @72-
    When Trump reads a teleprompter he sounds like he has been kidnapped and is reading a ransom note.

    RipMurdock (d2a2a8)

  76. You are really a douchebag, you know that?

    You seem unable to moderate yourself.

    Put up the link to where Patterico says what you claim.

    Ragspierre (d9bec9)

  77. Babylon Bee: “Liberal Treated With Hydroxychloroquine Hopes He Still Dies Of COVID-19 To Prove Trump Is Stupid”

    https://babylonbee.com/news/liberal-treated-with-hydroxychloroquine-hopes-he-still-dies-of-covid-19-to-prove-trump-is-stupid/

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  78. Decrease the surplus population….

    “A time to be born, and a time to die; a time to plant, and a time to pluck up that which is planted”

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  79. We know that additional deaths will be over the summer, and most likely return in the fall/winter.

    Perhaps. Or maybe there will be a vaccine or effective anti-viral. But more likely it will be the existence of quick, cheap and accurate tests that will allow the kind of containment that we might have hoped for at the beginning had such things existed (initial tests were neither quick, cheap not accurate; most still aren’t).

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  80. @74. =yawn= Golly. If only the citizens of Ol’Frisco in ’06 had shaked the Constitution in Mother Earth’s face they coulda ‘stopped the ground from turning their economy and lives into rubble.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  81. He selectively listened to part of it and ignored part of it, probably based on his preconceived preferences.

    This is so unusual in a politician. Teh horror.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  82. DCSCA-types we will always have with us…

    https://www.nbc.com/saturday-night-live/video/you-mock-me/n9742

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  83. Decrease the surplus population….

    “A time to be born, and a time to die; a time to plant, and a time to pluck up that which is planted”

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0) — 4/7/2020 @ 1:44 pm

    A time to figure out where to put the mass graves.

    Time123 (b87ded)

  84. Acting Navy secretary resigns after insulting aircraft carrier’s ousted captain

    How many times does this have to happen before they stop misusing their food holes?

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  85. Still, responding to the crisis based on what we know today is a lot different from early doing so in February, when the threat was not so clear.

    Trump would be well advised to stop talking after 4 minutes.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  86. A time to figure out where to put the mass graves.

    Yucca Mountain is available.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  87. Leaning Carvey…

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  88. He’d be well-advised to make a cameo appearance and leave it to his experts.

    However, when one watches him smoke-out a Chinese propagandist (courtesy of ABC’s Jon Karl) amongst seated media, one sees he can’t resist temptation.

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  89. https://villains.fandom.com/wiki/Ralph_Nickleby?file=Nicholasnickleby-uncle.jpg

    “Mine was no common loss.”

    “It was no uncommon loss. Husbands die every day.”

    Ragspierre (d9bec9)

  90. A time to figure out where to put the mass graves

    Bury them in the Blue city of residence.

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  91. @27. CNN HQ is based in Atlanta, GA.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  92. A time to refrain from embracing?

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  93. Who watches CNN?

    LOL 😂

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  94. Bury them in the Blue city of residence.

    These are Americans you’re talking about.

    Let’s tear down the teaching hospitals!

    Ragspierre (d9bec9)

  95. Funniest TV screen bug 2day- CNN has one up captioned ‘Joe Biden Live’ tonight at 9 PM. Obviously counterprograming to AMC’s ‘The Walking Dead’

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  96. Yes, they are Americans. Were you confused?

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  97. @92. You could hug a tree but they often bark back.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  98. Were you confused?

    Not for a moment. I do care about my countrymen, contra you.

    Ragspierre (d9bec9)

  99. I’m fairly certain I do more for my less fortunate countrymen in a month than you’ve done over your lifetime, pierre.

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  100. So Peter Navarro not only knows the cure (hydroxchloroquine) he even predicted the disease for which it was the “cure”

    But somehow I don’t think that was the point of the article.

    Sammy Finkelman (ea6ca0)

  101. @86 Having read something about the US funeral industry, I’m not sure that we wouldn’t all be better off when we died if we were wrapped in a cotton sheet and buried in a plain pine box (or no box at all) for our bodies to return to the soil. I certainly don’t want my body preserved for all time in the cool, dry air of endlessly geologically stable Yucca mountain.

    Nic (896fdf)

  102. The complaint is that the Trump administration didn’t listen to advice – which I guess time proved right. They are also complaining that he is now listening to Peter Navarro.

    Sammy Finkelman (ea6ca0)

  103. 101. Nic (896fdf) — 4/7/2020 @ 2:35 pm

    @86 Having read something about the US funeral industry, I’m not sure that we wouldn’t all be better off when we died if we were wrapped in a cotton sheet and buried in a plain pine box (or no box at all

    That’s more or less what they do in Israel, (for Jews) except they don;t use the pine box.

    But they need the space for a grave.

    Sammy Finkelman (ea6ca0)

  104. I’m fairly certain I do more for my less fortunate countrymen in a month than you’ve done over your lifetime, pierre.

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0) — 4/7/2020 @ 2:28 pm

    I recall comments you’ve made at other times that indicate you care about those around you. But you seem callous about the fatalities in this instance.

    Time123 (d1bf33)

  105. I’m fairly certain I do more for my less fortunate countrymen in a month than you’ve done over your lifetime, pierre.

    I’m fairly sure you’re full of yourself to the point of bursting, hack-ew. (Start showing me respect, and I’ll reciprocate. You know what that means, oh beneficent one?)

    Ragspierre (d9bec9)

  106. 76. I razzed Patterico weeks ago for going out for a walk when he was a proponent of “social distancing.” He assured us that his walks adhered to the letter and the spirit of the recommendations/laws/common sense that he was exercising.

    I said at the time that as long as those recommendations were just that, I could (reluctantly) stomach them, but that I didn’t trust our government to leave them in place as such. And they haven’t. People are getting arrested and fined in California and elsewhere, and no, it’s not just people testing positive. It’s people doing stuff like going out for walks alone.

    If I can dig up that particular thread, I will. But I’d have to look for it.

    Gryph (08c844)

  107. Time is linear. What was true is not now.

    Ragspierre (d9bec9)

  108. 107. Indeed. Three weeks ago I was worried about this “disaster” devolving into a police state. Now it has. And I see exceedingly few people admitting that we gave the government way too much power with way too little knowledge to handle this thing.

    Gryph (08c844)

  109. The bottom line is this: when faced with a society-threatening epidemic, a state may implement emergency measures that curtail constitutional rights so long as the measures have at least some “real or substantial relation” to the public health crisis

    Those darn liberals, doing all of this.

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827)

  110. 109. Hmm…I thought “Congress shall make no law…” is pretty plainly worded. I have to believe that “Congress shall make no law…except in a declared emergency…” would have been what the framers wrote if that’s what they had intended.

    Gryph (08c844)

  111. Congress has made no law.

    nk (1d9030)

  112. 111. …yet. But state legislatures, county sheriffs, and municipal police officers haven’t been clothing themselves in glory with their locally based infringements of freedom. There are state constitutions to think about as well, most of which expressly forbid the kind of infringement on religious liberties we’re seeing in quite a few places.

    Gryph (08c844)

  113. expressly forbid the kind of infringement on religious liberties we’re seeing in quite a few places.

    Which places are these? You can’t be a Christian in what place?

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827)

  114. Wherever they are arresting clergy for holding church services, genius.

    Ahh, they arrested him for being a christian, I didn’t see that. I did see that he was arrested for breaking a local ordinance, like burning leaves during a burn ban.

    I’m glad that you could correct the record and show that he was arrested for being a clergyman.

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827)

  115. 115. I’d say that constitutes infringing one’s freedom of worship, since attending church services of one’s choice is a manner of worship. But then again, I should know better than to expect you of all people to not split hairs, right?

    Gryph (08c844)

  116. attending church services of one’s choice is a manner of worship

    So is taking peyote or smoking ganga…or sacrificing animals or virgins.

    Still, we have and always will have ordinances that preclude some activities. To ridiculous absolutists, these comprise a “police state”.

    SMDH

    Ragspierre (d9bec9)

  117. To ridiculous absolutists, these comprise a “police state”.

    This is all being done for the sake of virtue-signalling and nurturing a sense of persecution.

    These churches are all hard-line evangelicals, who believe as my mother did.

    Unlike, some others, nothing in their faith requires presence of clergy or other intermediaries to render unto God that which is God’s.

    Dave (1bb933)

  118. most of which expressly forbid the kind of infringement on religious liberties we’re seeing in quite a few places.

    Gryph (08c844) — 4/7/2020 @ 3:56 pm

    They had an argument about that many years ago and decided that if we have a good enough reason, as a society, infringement is permitted unless it is religiously discriminatory, or the line is not content neutral.

    Gatherings of ten or more are forbidden now in many places, whether you are talking about the flying spaghetti monster or Allah. That is not religious persecution. Maybe it’s a policy you do not like, but it is completely lawful because of how it is not conditioned on what people are saying in the church.

    Yes, this is a tremendous power anyway. It has turned my life upside down, and the lives of hundreds of millions of Americans. That’s a lot of power. Too much for government to have. And it’s also too much to tolerate millions of Americans dying, which I believe was the alternative. A tough call was made, and we can vote accordingly.

    Dustin (fa728c)

  119. Then the devil taketh him up into the holy city, and setteth him on a pinnacle of the temple,

    6And saith unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down: for it is written, He shall give his angels charge concerning thee: and in their hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone.

    7Jesus said unto him, It is written again, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.
    https://biblehub.com/kjv/matthew/4.htm

    nk (1d9030)

  120. @108. Police state?

    Golly. If only the dinosaurs had those DoI, Constitution and BoR thingies to wave at that killer asteroid to stop it from slamming into Earth.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  121. Ain’t nothing wrong with ticketing, fining or arresting defiant bible-thumping imbeciles placing their own self-righteous sense of self-importance over the health and general welfare of the rest of us. Or nutbags gathering on beaches to party or pray; or unmasked twits coughing on public transportation or in grocery stores or pharmacies.

    Amidst a global crisis, like a viral pandemic, common sense rules.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  122. @120. God said ‘let there be blight’ — the text was a typo. 😉

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w556vrpsy4w

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  123. 122. Uh, yeah there is. It’s called the “free exercise” clause, D. Common sense is a piss-poor reason to suspend the constitution. But if you’re okay with that, it’s not like there’s much I can say to change your mind.

    Gryph (08c844)

  124. Gryph, it’s content neutral. Congress is not establishing or preferring any religion. I’ve never been legally allowed to drive to church drunk. Reality changed on what’s safe. For the economic devastation we brought on ourselves to be worth it, we need to keep it going.

    Maybe we can go back and talk about whether it was worth it, but we paid the price and might as well go through with the plan.

    Dustin (fa728c)

  125. @124. Common sense is a piss-poor reason to suspend the constitution.

    …said the brontosaurus bones from the quarries of the Dakota Black Hills.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  126. Uh, yeah there is. It’s called the “free exercise” clause, D. Common sense is a piss-poor reason to suspend the constitution. But if you’re okay with that, it’s not like there’s much I can say to change your mind.

    There are many limitations on “free exercise”. Polygamy and human sacrifice to name two that spring to mind.

    This isn’t new of course.

    The Court in Reynolds distinguished between religious belief and religious conduct or action, stating that Congress was “deprived of all legislative power over mere opinion, but was left free to reach actions which were in violation of social duties or subversive to good order.” The Court said this view would “permit every citizen to become a law unto himself.” While the government could not punish citizens because of their religious beliefs, it could regulate religiously motivated conduct, provided that it had a rational basis for doing so. This “rational basis test” became the standard for determining whether a law that impinged on a religious practice violated the free-exercise clause.

    So yeah, common sense, but you should hold out for your flavor of freedumb.

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827)

  127. 127. I find it really hard to believe that you were retired millitary, considering your rather jaundiced view of “freedumb”

    Gryph (08c844)

  128. @128 People in the military (and their families) acquiesce to a rather large number of restrictions on their freedom in order to protect their fellow citizens.

    Nic (896fdf)

  129. I find it really hard to believe that you were retired millitary, considering your rather jaundiced view of “freedumb”

    No, you have a very immature view, uncolored with life and experience.

    Those of us who’ve been there and done that are quite a bit more realistic. The views that children have should always be corrected. Hence “freedumb” your view vs. freedom, the values of the United States.

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827)

  130. Everybody’s nerves are on edge. The Good, The Bad, and The Ugly is on Netflix, and so is Once Upon A Time In West if you need it to transition from Tiger King.

    nk (1d9030)

  131. John Prine, Who Chronicled the Human Condition in Song, Dies at 73
    John Prine, the raspy-voiced country-folk singer whose ingenious lyrics to songs by turns poignant, angry and comic made him a favorite of Bob Dylan, Kris Kristofferson and others, died Tuesday at Vanderbilt University Medical Center in Nashville, Tenn. He was 73.

    The cause was complications from Covid-19, his family said.
    …..

    Allen Garfield, ‘Nashville’ and ‘The Conversation’ Star Dies of Coronavirus at 80

    RipMurdock (1d97e4)

  132. Oh yeah. This s**t isn’t police-state thug tactics at all. It’s just common sense to be handcuffing a man in front of his six-year-old daughter because police officers don’t know the law. That’s your common sense for you.

    Gryph (08c844)

  133. John Prine. Now there was a songwriter! RIP.

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  134. 130. You wouldn’t know freedom if it bit you in the ass, Klink. You’re an apologist for tyrants. But you keep telling yourself whatever helps you sleep at night.

    Gryph (08c844)

  135. You wouldn’t know freedom if it bit you in the ass, Klink. You’re an apologist for tyrants. But you keep telling yourself whatever helps you sleep at night.

    Who are the tyrants, be specific, use your words.

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827)

  136. When officers arrived, there was a group of about 12-15 people who appeared to be playing softball at the park, according to police.

    “Although the officers asked them to disperse due to the park being closed, which was incorrect, disbursement was needed due to the state’s public health order regarding group gathering. The Brighton Police Department is currently conducting an internal investigation into what led to officers detaining Mr. Mooney while responding to the complaint. While the investigation sorts through the different versions of what took place by witnesses who were at the park, it is evident there was an overreach by our police officers,” the police department said.

    The police were in the wrong, they let him go within 10 minutes, and apologized. Sometimes there are bad individuals, some can be police.

    You may have seen similar things happen before there was a virus. But maybe your head was buried…in books.

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827)

  137. GFY Klink.

    So you have no actual idea, just pure youthful foolishness.

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827)

  138. You can see who truly desires to be ruled by a totalitarian regime and who believes in our founding documents.

    NJRob (3c1da3)

  139. Believing that he wasn’t doing anything wrong, he refused to provide identification to the three police officers questioning him. Mooney was handcuffed in front of his family.

    Damn straight!

    Here’s the thing…there is no “police state”. There is due process of law, and the guys who were ticketed will have a hearing…or more…that may see them told to go and be happy.

    But you do NOT flucking argue with LEOs, and ESPECIALLY with your little girl watching you for her example.

    I personally am getting sick of your moaning and b!tching with ZERO comprehension of how the laws you PRETEND to honor operate.

    Ragspierre (d9bec9)

  140. You can see who truly desires to be ruled by a totalitarian regime and who believes in our founding documents.

    NJRob (3c1da3) — 4/7/2020 @ 7:39 pm

    Indeed, he absolutists are making themselves known. The patriots who love their neighbor and common sense more than their vanity are also making themselves known. There’s zero doubt where our founders would fall on this issue. Community caretaking has been a legitimate function of government for thousands of years. What matters is accountability to the people for those decisions… not an abolition of anything that makes a philosophy major say ACHTUALLLYYY

    Dustin (fa728c)

  141. Community is one thing Dustin. Cheering the government taking away our freedoms because of a panic is quite another.

    NJRob (e3ee15)

  142. How many constitutional rights are being ignored due to this panic?

    NJRob (e3ee15)

  143. How many constitutional rights are being ignored due to this panic?

    NJRob (e3ee15) — 4/7/2020 @ 7:50 pm

    None. Read the comments. The police accepted the complaint and are being accountable for their decision. You have your first amendment right to worship whatever god you want, say whatever you want, etc. Anything interfering with that right must be neutral and based on a legitimate need, tested in court. Nothing’s absolute and nothing ever was.

    If we just let millions die and society collapse that is not supporting civil rights at all. This is because government and police happen to be a necessary feature to civil rights. In their absence you aren’t more free… except maybe in a video game or a zombie movie. You do not really want what you think you want.

    Community is one thing Dustin. Cheering the government taking away our freedoms because of a panic is quite another.

    NJRob (e3ee15) — 4/7/2020 @ 7:50 pm

    It’s more than a bumper sticker. Many people who actually support Donald Trump, who has stolen the homes of citizens for parking lots, using government power, or cheered roughing up protestors on multiple occasions, like to weigh in on ‘panic’ and ‘freedom’ like they actually care about these concepts.

    If your freedoms are being taken away why are you at home whining about it? Go do something about it. Truth is there’s nothing happening that would justify taking action. We just live in a world where politics = starting fights we aren’t that sincere about, over and over and over.

    It is a shame we lack a leader who can explain things on the basis of our common interest and goals though.

    Dustin (fa728c)

  144. How many constitutional rights are being ignored due to this panic?

    According to the actual words of the Constitution and all rulings of the SCOTUS for 150 years, specifically in Reynolds. Plus an additional 800 years dating back to English common law and the Magna Carta.

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827)

  145. Just remember these powers you so willingly deem just will be used by the government over and over again. I hope you get what you want over and over again.

    NJRob (e3ee15)

  146. I want all human rights, and I want the government to be accountable any time they use the authority I and the rest of society give them, to show why what they did was fair, neutral, and justified by some important purpose.

    Trump wants your home for his parking lot and thinks the Tienanmen Square massacre was good. But I didn’t vote for Trump and never would vote my rights away like a Trump voter.

    Dustin (fa728c)

  147. Just remember these powers you so willingly deem just will be used by the government over and over again.

    In the sense they HAVE been used over and over. Then things got back to normal. Learn some history, dammit!!!

    Ragspierre (d9bec9)

  148. Ragspierre,

    Your constant rudeness and use of derogatory language has been noted over and over again. Why it is ignored is beyond me.

    NJRob (e3ee15)

  149. NJRob, “I hope you get what you want over and over again” wasn’t rude?

    If “dammit!” offends your doily-clutching self, HOW the hell have you survived?

    Oh, and learn some history, ya filthy animal. (Classic reference contained therein!)

    Ragspierre (d9bec9)

  150. Dustin if you believe Trump wants to bring out his inner dictator, why are you so willing to give him and others these powers?

    NJRob (e3ee15)

  151. Your constant rudeness and use of derogatory language has been noted over and over again. Why it is ignored is beyond me.

    NJRob (e3ee15) — 4/7/2020 @ 8:22 pm

    I think the problem is a mutual concern. You see us as the reason your civil rights are in jeopardy. Trump critics often see defense of Trump as a threat to our way of life. We all want what’s best for our country, but this is somewhat compromised on the individual level.

    Why are people who all agree that freedom of association and public welfare are important fighting? Why is our political system all about stupid little fights all the time?

    I think there’s a lot to this specific problem. But I agree it’s important we all work harder to give eachother respect. I don’t mean ‘please’ and ‘thank you’ so much as actually trying to respect the concepts in the other point of view.

    Do you feel you understand the opposing point of view on civil rights and community caretaking? Maybe if we can say eachother’s point of view in a good faith way, that helps us see a little common ground.

    Dustin (fa728c)

  152. Ragspierre,

    saying in my own way to be careful what you wish for is as polite as possible. I could say that you are cheering on a fascist takeover of society, but you’ll claim it isn’t the same though I’d ask how is it any different?

    And Dustin, shutting down churches and jailing pastors is in violation of the 1st Amendment no matter how you hide behind claiming an ordinance allowing less than 10 people to congregate is permissible (it isn’t) as that violates our right to peaceably assemble.

    NJRob (e3ee15)

  153. Dustin I live in a state that just banned going to state and local parks and the masses cheer it on.

    NJRob (e3ee15)

  154. Dustin if you believe Trump wants to bring out his inner dictator, why are you so willing to give him and others these powers?

    NJRob (e3ee15) — 4/7/2020 @ 8:43 pm

    Excellent question.

    One is practical. I didn’t have a real choice.

    But beyond that, I think if we are going to trust our government with the power to shut down our economy and way of life, devastating so many families, we better also keep them extremely accountable. Constant criticism of missteps and scrutiny. In short, I treat Trump the way I treated Obama and candidates Romney and Mccain.

    I believe in our freedoms, but I recognize that with all this power (and money) people will exploit it. Government agents will abuse power. Both parties will stoke fights to deflect attention from poor performance.

    I know government is not efficient and I know these powers could be abused. Say the virus is cured tomorrow. Bernie Sanders would love the shutdown to keep going with universal income, in the name of the environment.

    To you, perhaps this is pandora’s box, but I think with effective scrutiny we can perform this quarantine and return to normalcy because we have seen that happen in the past.

    It would be a lot better if there was a national level political movement that wasn’t terrible. It’s not like Joe Biden is promising.

    Dustin (fa728c)

  155. Dustin I live in a state that just banned going to state and local parks and the masses cheer it on.

    NJRob (e3ee15) — 4/7/2020 @ 8:48 pm

    NJ is having a really hard time and is the most densely packed part of the country (not that you need me to tell you either of these things). To the people at home, seeing their accounts run dry, they resent the people who are wasting that sacrifice. It becomes emotional.

    Dustin (fa728c)

  156. And Dustin, shutting down churches and jailing pastors is in violation of the 1st Amendment no matter how you hide behind claiming an ordinance allowing less than 10 people to congregate is permissible (it isn’t) as that violates our right to peaceably assemble.

    I disagree. I don’t even think this is a first amendment issue unless there’s a claim a different church would have been permitted to conduct mass gatherings, which we all know is not true.

    This is a fourth/14th amendment issue. Did the government have a legitimate and legal basis to control crowds? Did it have PC that a threat to others was going to happen without the arrest (community caretaking doctrine, however it’s phrased where you are). These are tested concepts by now.

    From my perspective, it’s a lot like arresting a preacher on the way to church while he’s driving drunk. It has nothing to do with what religion he was preaching.

    Dustin (fa728c)

  157. NJRob

    Do you think government has no right, and should have no power, to protect public health and safety?

    If the answer is yes, then realize you are taking an extreme position and don’t fuss at people who disagree with you.

    If the answer is no, then you are simply whining.

    Kishnevi (715d6a)

  158. I could say that you are cheering on a fascist takeover of society, but you’ll claim it isn’t the same though I’d ask how is it any different?

    If you said anything of the kind, I’d point out you have no comprehension of what “fascist” means.

    People who understand the law AND history have tried to inform you you’re full of gas.

    READ some history. You’ve made it clear nobody here can teach you anything.

    Ragspierre (d9bec9)

  159. I think I define health and safety different than you do and this is the same argument gun grabbers use to negate constitutional rights.

    NJRob (e3ee15)

  160. Ragspierre, how you are still permitted to post here amazes me as you are obviously out to just insult and berate people.

    NJRob (e3ee15)

  161. Hang in there, Rob. You are winning the discussion.

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  162. Recommended viewing: ‘Panic In The Streets’ 1950.

    ‘The film tells the story of Lieutenant Commander Clinton Reed, an officer of the U.S. Public Health Service (played by Richard Widmark) and a New Orleans police captain (Paul Douglas) who have only a day or two in which to prevent an epidemic of pneumonic plague.’ – source, wikifivedollarpopcorn

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  163. It’s not a win/loss situation Haiku. There are no winners when we willingly give up our personal and financial freedoms to depend on daddy government to save us. That’s the road to a socialist state and fulfills Hillary’s “it takes a village” commandment.

    But what makes me chuckle is all those demanding Trump do more yet fearing him having more power. I cannot comprehend the cognitive dissonance.

    NJRob (e3ee15)

  164. NJ is having a really hard time and is the most densely packed part of the country (not that you need me to tell you either of these things). To the people at home, seeing their accounts run dry, they resent the people who are wasting that sacrifice. It becomes emotional.

    Dustin (fa728c) — 4/7/2020 @ 8:51 pm

    Being an adult citizen means we each have the responsibility to behave properly. But I will not submit to the government forcing me to behave as they deem appropriate.

    That is no different than wishing the chains fall lightly on your shoulders.

    NJRob (e3ee15)

  165. And now that we are all utterly miserable, albeit some more than others, who is up for revisiting our “free trade” and “movement of peoples ” that has caused all this hardship and misery?

    NJRob (e3ee15)

  166. 144.How many constitutional rights are being ignored due to this panic?

    Panic?

    Golly. If only the dinosaurs had those DoI, Constitution and BoR thingies to wave at that killer asteroid to stop it from slamming into Earth.

    Golly. If only the citizens of Pompeii had the Constitution to wave at an erupting Vesuvius to stop that pyroclastic flow cold.

    Golly. If only the citizens of Ol’Frisco in ’06 had shaked the Constitution in Mother Earth’s face they coulda ‘stopped the ground from turning their economy and lives into rubble.

    The poor and the ignorant will always be with us. Remain blissful; stay happy.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  167. There are no winners when we willingly give up our personal and financial freedoms to depend on daddy government to save us.

    They don’t mean sh!t if you’ve ignored common sense AND coughed yourself into your grave waving the American flag.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  168. And now that we are all utterly miserable, albeit some more than others, who is up for revisiting our “free trade” and “movement of peoples ” that has caused all this hardship and misery?

    Now THERE is some heavy-duty irony.

    I’ll be happy to help you understand free trade and the movement that markets allow us now.

    But first let me slay the straw MEN you erected in your several posts above.

    First, NOOOOOOOOOObody is eager to give Duh Donald more power. People here have tried…as patiently as is possible…to teach you that most of what you are flapping around about is the common police power in the states and localities. Over and over, you’ve heard that these are NOT, in fact, new and dangerous affronts to our freedoms, but ARE temporary measures that have ample precedent in the law and history dating to BEFORE the Constitution.

    Second, you damn sure will submit to law and order, as do we all unless we want to spend time in prison. And “submission” may be too charged a term. We all form a compact with various institutions in life, including our church, family, college and governments. If you find that…or those…compacts onerous, you can leave. So you have choices. But while you live in your town, state, or the U.S., your will comport yourself within the law. Same with your church, etc.

    Ragspierre (d9bec9)

  169. Being an adult citizen means we each have the responsibility to behave properly. But I will not submit to the government forcing me to behave as they deem appropriate.

    That is no different than wishing the chains fall lightly on your shoulders.

    NJRob (e3ee15) — 4/7/2020 @ 9:16 pm

    Following criminal law is no different from being a slave? I don’t think that’s a very serious argument.

    And it’s not ‘the government’ forcing you. It’s society. There’s a reason these measures to shut down mass gatherings are happening. The cops don’t even want to talk to people and increase their chances of getting sick. The community is outraged and demands these actions for their safety, because they have sense.

    And if you’re really not going to submit, if this really is your enslavement, you shouldn’t be talking to me on the internet. Why is Trump letting us be enslaved, rob? Why isn’t he making America great again?

    Perhaps the reason is… we always have had laws that impacted our civil rights. Free speech isn’t a right to be a con artist, that’s why Trump lost all those lawsuits. Right to bear arms isn’t a right to carry them into the white house, on a plane, etc. The fourth amendment isn’t your right to not be arrested. It’s the burden of proof before the government can take your freedom.

    We all have competing interests and our society has legitimate interests, and we’ve worked out when it is appropriate for one to command the other. This pandemic changed the equation, but not the rights.

    I notice you haven’t responded at all to my most basic point: the government did not discriminate against or for any particular religion. My example of the pastor driving drunk seems appropriate. Does your preacher have a first amendment right to drive drunk to church? If he does not, how is that not a violation of the 1st amendment? I’ve answered your questions and have only asked that you try to understand and talk about my point of view the same way.

    Dustin (fa728c)

  170. It’s already in the law and has been for decades. US code Title 42, health and welfare says that the government may “substantially burden” a person’s practice of religion if there is a compelling reason and if it is the least restrictive way to further that endevour.

    https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/42/2000bb-1

    Nic (896fdf)

  171. Thank you for the eloquent posts, Dustin and Klink.

    Dave (1bb933)

  172. @166. Being an adult citizen means we each have the responsibility to behave properly. But I will not submit to the government forcing me to behave as they deem appropriate. That is no different than wishing the chains fall lightly on your shoulders.

    “Deemed appropriate?” How about your arm instead of your shoulder: authorities risk their lives in storms just to tell the ignorant, the stubborn, and those without an ounce of common sense to write their names and SS number in indelible marker on their forearms so the body can be proper identified.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  173. R.I.P. HAL WILLNER – a record producer for MARIANNE FAITHFULL and LOU REED, and longtime musical supervisor for the sketches on “SATURDAY NIGHT LIVE,” has died of complications related to the coronavirus, WILLNER had tweeted late last month that he had been diagnosed positive for COVID-19.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  174. There is little to add to the excellent arguments of Klink and Dustin, but I’d just like to note that the founders saw a proper role for the national government in protecting its citizens, and that’s why they replaced the impotent Articles of Confederation with a blueprint for a more dynamic government that could deal with problems of national scope effectively.

    Also, the religious freedom that they enshrined in the First Amendment was the freedom from the government choosing sides among religions. That includes discriminating against OR favoring religious belief as a whole.

    The idea that clergy, and religious establishments in general, enjoy some immunity to public health measures generally enforced on everyone else in society is in fact a violation of the establishment clause, as it would confer extra-legal privileges on a favored subset of individuals solely on the basis of their religious activity and beliefs.

    Dave (1bb933)

  175. That’s a good point, Dave. If this one religion gets to skirt the laws the rest of us follow, because of its popularity and political pressure, that’s not freedom.

    Dustin (fa728c)

  176. Re: the original post

    I am experiencing considerable cognitive dissonance in confronting the fact that Peter-freaking-Navarro – whose past record is one of unmitigated idiocy – was actually advocating sensible action.

    But I think I may understand. Navarro has made a career of crying “wolf” about China, writing multiple books with fictitious sources and specious logic warning of the supposedly baleful effects of trade with them.

    So given that China is his personal bogey-man, it does sort of make sense that he would be uniquely prepared to sound the alarm when an actual threat originating in China appeared. Confirmation bias led him to draw the correct conclusions, in this case.

    Unfortunately, his lack of credibility (from crying “wolf!” too many times in the past, and from being an idiot generally) probably made his dire warnings less effective this time, when they were actually justified.

    Dave (1bb933)

  177. Trump should fire as many IG’s as possible. These dick swingers need to be jailed.

    mg (8cbc69)

  178. These dick swingers need to be jailed.

    What law have they violated? Please cite specific evidence.

    Dave (1bb933)

  179. Dustin,

    Your drunk driving claim is a false equivalency. An accurate claim would be someone might drive drunk to church so let’s arrest everyone for drunk driving to be “safe.”

    NJRob (4d595c)

  180. An unconstitutional law is still unconstitutional.

    NJRob (4d595c)

  181. Ragspierre,

    You’ve spoken as a Jack booted thug who thinks you’ll be in charge while the boot will instead be stomping on your face, forever.

    You would’ve told Rosa Parks to shut up and sit in the back and that Martin Luther King Jr was just a troublemaker who didn’t know his place.

    Just pay the stamp tax to the crown. It’s the law. Be meek no matter how unreasonable or absurd the law is that’s passed. Your betters have spoken.

    NJRob (4d595c)

  182. Go read how the fascists on the left are trying to shape society with the power you’ve willingly granted them. Read Zeke Emmanuel’s recent remarks. Watch how our “leaders” behave instead of following the laws the rest of us are subject to.

    NJRob (4d595c)

  183. Your drunk driving claim is a false equivalency. An accurate claim would be someone might drive drunk to church so let’s arrest everyone for drunk driving to be “safe.”

    NJRob (4d595c) — 4/8/2020 @ 4:45 am

    I appreciate your response, but I disagree.

    The risk from a drunk driver is that they might kill someone. They usually do not. The risk from a person spreading COVID 19 is similar (in type, not degree). In neither case do the drunk driver or COVID spreader intend to hurt others.

    I limited my comparison to the preacher I think because you cited the preacher’s arrest. But if you wanted to, you could compare to a whole horde of drunk drivers on their way to church. I suppose not Mormon church though.

    Regardless, the real difference in our views is that you do not agree that it is dangerous to join a large group of people in a closed area. This is very different from what you seemed to think was our difference in views, which was that the government cannot arrest people for dangerous behavior, on their way to a religious event.

    An unconstitutional law is still unconstitutional.

    NJRob (4d595c) — 4/8/2020 @ 4:45 am

    I don’t follow. There’s too much open potential for misuse for me to flatly state all social distancing laws are constitutional. I’m just saying that in the case of arresting the preacher for organizing and attending his service, apparently after warning that this was against an ordinance and wasn’t safe, that appears to be constitutional.

    Go read how the fascists on the left are trying to shape society with the power you’ve willingly granted them.

    I acknowledged this honestly in this thread, regarding environmentalism. The potential for abusing power is there. It’s always been there. We do have to hold the government accountable, but we also need government to do its job when the community has an interest in safety and a law is enacted on our behalf to protect us.

    Dustin (fa728c)

  184. I actually do go to church most Sundays. You guys, on both sides, overstate your case. Nic is the only one who got it right in his comment 172. The government can prevent me from going only if it has a compelling governmental interest and it is the least restrictive means. The statute he cites is a codification of Supreme Court decisions.

    nk (1d9030)

  185. Regardless, the real difference in our views is that you do not agree that it is dangerous to join a large group of people in a closed area. This is very different from what you seemed to think was our difference in views, which was that the government cannot arrest people for dangerous behavior, on their way to a religious event.

    Except that I work in a deemed necessary field where people congregate every single day. And parks aren’t closed environments which is what started my remarks. They are open space.

    Where I differ is that I think people have the right to make adult decisions based on risk for themselves. We dont need daddy government deciding one size fits all.

    NJRob (4d595c)

  186. The government can prevent me from going only if it has a compelling governmental interest and it is the least restrictive means. The statute he cites is a codification of Supreme Court decisions.

    nk (1d9030) — 4/8/2020 @ 5:18 am

    That sounds smart and all but that’s like your opinion man.

    Except that I work in a deemed necessary field where people congregate every single day.

    I think the idea is that we’re shutting down everything that isn’t necessary, because that’s the least bad we can do to save lives. I have no idea how many. Some say millions but I realize you will reject that claim.

    Where I differ is that I think people have the right to make adult decisions based on risk for themselves.

    I agree. It’s the risk to others that’s the problem.

    We dont need daddy government deciding one size fits all.

    We need some of it. We need someone to say no to the drunk drivers and to decide where the line is between drunk driver and not. Maybe government (and society, and I) are all wrong about the risk of spreading COVID-19 and due to that mistake we’re advocating for an extreme destruction that is not justified by the danger of the disease.

    But we’re talking about the right someone has to defy a quarantine on absolute human rights grounds. I think these are different issues, even though nk’s definition has that word ‘compelling’ in there.

    Dustin (fa728c)

  187. Meanwhile the Wisconsin primary went on on Tuesday.

    The persons who tried didn’t have the legal power to postpone it or change the rules. So said the United States Supreme Court.

    Changing the date would have affected when terms of some judges expired or something. The Republicans don;t lke absentee balloting

    https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/07/us/politics/wisconsin-pandemic-primary-republicans.html

    Mask-wearing voters in endless lines. Five polling places instead of 180….

    …Former Vice President Joseph R. Biden Jr. and Senator Bernie Sanders are on the ballot in Wisconsin, but the main event is the State Supreme Court race between the conservative incumbent justice, Daniel Kelly, and a liberal challenger, Jill Karofsky.

    The winner will be in position to cast a deciding vote on a case before the court that seeks to purge more than 200,000 people from Wisconsin’s voter rolls — in a state where 2.6 million people voted in the last governor’s race. When the matter was first before the court in January, Mr. Kelly recused himself, citing his upcoming election. He indicated he would “rethink” his position following the April election, which comes with a 10-year term…

    …For weeks Mr. Evers insisted he didn’t have the power to change the election date without consent of the state legislature, which consistently refused to entertain the idea.

    Instead he sought other remedies, such as sending absentee ballots to all voters and extending the time for voters to return ballots by mail — ideas that Republicans resisted and that were eventually struck down in courts dominated by Republican appointees..

    …But Mr. Evers wasn’t helped by disunity among leaders and national figures in his own party. While Mr. Sanders last week called for postponing the state’s election, Mr. Biden predicted the contest could be held safely…

    …Democrats had hoped postponing the contest to June and changing it to an all-mail election would alleviate fears of the pandemic and allow people to vote safely. With the state so divided, any tangible drop-off in urban turnout is likely to tip the State Supreme Court race to Mr. Kelly…

    ..Public health officials across the state have closed hundreds of precincts because of the coronavirus pandemic. In Milwaukee, just five of 180 planned polling places are open, leading to hourslong lines of masked and socially distanced voters.

    This comes as Milwaukee voters — an electorate that includes nearly all of the state’s black population — have lagged well behind suburban counterparts in returning absentee ballots…

    Sammy Finkelman (4eddd7)

  188. But we’re talking about the right someone has to defy a quarantine on absolute human rights grounds. I think these are different issues, even though nk’s definition has that word ‘compelling’ in there.

    Dustin (fa728c) — 4/8/2020 @ 5:32 am

    Your compelling interest doesn’t have an end date. An uninfected person has no need to be quarantined. Destroying the economy has far more permanent results.

    NJRob (4d595c)

  189. They are continuing to lie in hina. Lead WSJ story. laim the epidemic is just about over, but it isn’t.

    https://www.wsj.com/articles/china-eases-wuhan-lockdown-but-coronavirus-fight-remains-incomplete-11586293305

    WUHAN—Chinese leaders and many medical experts have held up this city as an example of what can be achieved through extreme efforts to contain the coronavirus.

    It’s now becoming clear the battle in Wuhan is far from over—and the human cost much higher than officially acknowledged.

    The city has announced only three new confirmed cases with symptoms since March 18. Authorities have just formally ended the 77-day lockdown on the city, allowing inbound and outbound travel for healthy people, after easing some residential restrictions to revive a crippled local economy.

    In the past few days, however, it has tightened restrictions on some housing complexes, and said others will remain in place, after confirming dozens of new asymptomatic cases. An official newspaper said Monday there could be 10,000 to 20,000 such cases in Wuhan. The report was swiftly deleted online….

    Sammy Finkelman (4eddd7)

  190. You would’ve told Rosa Parks to shut up and sit in the back and that Martin Luther King Jr was just a troublemaker who didn’t know his place.

    No, you are as completely wrong here as you’ve consistently been up, down, and sideways.

    I’m an advocate of TRUE civil disobedience, which to practice one MUST insist that the law be enforced and applied to them. There’s also the less formal civil disobedience you see when masses of people will simply not support a law, such as during Prohibition.

    There is a good lesson from Prohibition regarding your hysteria over “fascists” taking over. People simply wouldn’t stand for it. This crisis will pass, and so will the need…and support for…extraordinary action for the necessity of fighting this disease.

    Ragspierre (d9bec9)

  191. If you don’t say you don;t believe them, you’ll never get them to tell the truth.

    And in the meantime, authorities elsewhere should do the best they can without the co-operation of China. They got to acknoedge they don;t have it.

    And the US should involve the inteklligence agencies in trying to get to the bottom of this, maybe allowing some officials to ask questions and pretend to believe them,

    This is a matter for the EIA. Exceot that the EIA has to work independently of the Xhinese government.

    And not trust the World Health Organization.

    Sammy Finkelman (4eddd7)

  192. For those who think that restricting the freedom of movement of the general population is not strictly necessary: A parachute is not strictly necessary to go skydiving either. Only if you want to go skydiving again.

    nk (1d9030)

  193. I’d say that constitutes infringing one’s freedom of worship…

    You’re still free to worship, just not in a room with more than ten people. The First Amendment states that “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof…”
    Congress has done nothing to prohibit such free exercise, and Supreme Court case law has made clear that the states–not the federal government–have the authority to quarantine and isolate. Since the laws are applied uniformly and broadly wrt the “right of the people peaceably to assemble”, there’s no conflict. David French has to more (ad hominem replies not accepted, he’s literally won religious freedom lawsuits):

    Think of it like this: Just as the president and the federal government act at the peak of their powers when national security is threatened, America’s governors are often at the peak of their power when public health is at stake.
    Thus, as AEI’s Jay Cost noted in an excellent Twitter thread on police power vs. enumerated power, a governor backed by a state legislature has “the sovereign power to make you go home if you are a menace to ‘public health.’” President Trump, he notes, does not have that power. Thus, governors have broad latitude to order curfews, close businesses, and limit public gatherings.
    But what about the First Amendment? Can the government really order churches to close? Doesn’t the First Amendment guarantee free exercise of religion? What about a citizen’s rights of freedom of assembly and freedom of association?
    If a state closure order targeted churches—and churches only—the order would almost certainly be unconstitutional. But the state closures orders in response to COVID-19 represent classic examples of a “neutral law of general applicability” that are presumptively lawful under Employment Division v. Smith. If restaurants and bars and movie theaters are closed at the same time, churches won’t enjoy any special protection under the Free Exercise Clause.

    Link.

    Paul Montagu (f57f23)

  194. I’m still waiting for someone to explain how prohibiting x number of worshipers to congregate in defined space due to Covid-19 is morally different to prohibiting y
    number of worshipers to congregate in a defined space due to fire codes.

    is it because fire codes are steady state and this is transient?
    is it because we’re used to fire codes and this is new?
    is it because y > x
    is it because covid-19 is politicized?

    Time123 (6e0727)

  195. Time123,

    it’s because the amount is so small that it actually prevents a congregation from meeting and sharing the Word with each other. It also saddens me that the same arguments people are using here are the same ones the Soviets used to ban the public practice of religion.

    Still waiting for people to explain how banning people from using open spaces helps. Responsible people can spread out in an open space.

    So many willing to give up their liberty due to fear.

    NJRob (4d595c)

  196. Fear? Speak for yourself. Most of us are willing to sacrifice for the common good out of common sense.

    JRH (52aed3)

  197. Time123,

    It’s because the amount is so small that it actually prevents a congregation from meeting and sharing the Word with each other. It also saddens me that the same arguments people are using here are the same ones the Soviets used to ban the public practice of religion.

    The first part is a reasonable objection that seams like it could be addressed through some sort of balancing test involving space time and ppl/square area.

    The Soviet part I’m not following, you’ll have to lay out more specifically what those parallels are.

    Time123 (653992)

  198. An uninfected person has no need to be quarantined.

    This would be true, except a significant percentage are asymptomatic.

    Paul Montagu (f57f23)

  199. It also saddens me that the same arguments people are using here are the same ones the Soviets used to ban the public practice of religion.

    Maybe Stalin said that churches will spread a pandemic while banning all large gatherings for a short period of time, but I don’t recall that. If this kind of conflation is the argument, it’s a wild stretch.

    An uninfected person has no need to be quarantined. Destroying the economy has far more permanent results.

    NJRob (4d595c) — 4/8/2020 @ 5:38 am

    An uninfected person can be infected. We have to recognize the limitations on our knowledge of who is infected and who can incubate and spread. I mean, look at that Aircraft Carrier. They didn’t let a single person on board knowing he was infected. And yet people are dying now.

    I agree that the consequences economically are devastating. In fact, they will kill people. It’s fair to compare the damage with the benefits. Without any social distancing efforts, deaths in our country would have been in the low millions. With the economic devastation, losses are in the trillions and could, in my opinion, bring a war. However, there’s a hindsight bias at play. Remember, all the economic destruction was going to happen anyway if that many people got sick, if all hospitals were overrun, and we had dead Americans in our streets, mass graves, rioting. We can’t compare today to a year ago. We have to compare today to other possible todays. The pandemic was part of that either way, therefore economic problems.

    Dustin (fa728c)

  200. An uninfected person has no need to be quarantined. Destroying the economy has far more permanent results.

    NJRob (4d595c) — 4/8/2020 @ 5:38 am

    Unless that individual has been isolated for 14 days, they can’t know for sure that they are uninfected. That’s the problem. As soon as they interact with another person (or people), that non-infected status is in question. Even if they don’t show symptoms.

    Dana (0feb77)

  201. Destroying the economy has far more permanent results.

    That is a clear straw man fallacy. The economy is hurt, but in no way “destroyed”. There’s no likelihood that it will be.

    Again, history is our friend. We’ve been through worse with a lot less to make us durable.

    Ragspierre (d9bec9)

  202. I agree that the consequences economically are devastating. In fact, they will kill people. It’s fair to compare the damage with the benefits. Without any social distancing efforts, deaths in our country would have been in the low millions. With the economic devastation, losses are in the trillions and could, in my opinion, bring a war. However, there’s a hindsight bias at play. Remember, all the economic destruction was going to happen anyway if that many people got sick, if all hospitals were overrun, and we had dead Americans in our streets, mass graves, rioting. We can’t compare today to a year ago. We have to compare today to other possible todays. The pandemic was part of that either way, therefore economic problems.

    Dustin (fa728c) — 4/8/2020 @ 9:42 am

    Those metrics are based on the same types of models that predicted the polar ice caps would’ve already disappeared and that NYC would be under water. We know how that’s turned out.

    Living in fear based on predictions is for Nostradamus, but not for a free people.

    NJRob (4d595c)

  203. Those metrics are based on the same types of models that predicted the polar ice caps would’ve already disappeared and that NYC would be under water.

    So the mass graves in NYC are a prop…???

    Ragspierre (d9bec9)

  204. 197. NJRob (4d595c) — 4/8/2020 @ 8:34 am

    Still waiting for people to explain how banning people from using open spaces helps. Responsible people can spread out in an open space.

    Well, you see, the 6 foot rule is false (it’s not a guarantee) and they know it. The virsu can travel more than 6 feet in the air..

    Sammy Finkelman (7cd5f4)

  205. 205 Ragspierre (d9bec9) — 4/8/2020 @ 11:30 am

    So the mass graves in NYC are a prop…???

    It was some planning document, which was all wrong and the mayor et all had to disavow or smething. because if they did have a lot of dead bodies, they would not dig trenches in the parks – they wold just use Hart Island (Potter’s field) and keep careful of where the bodies were buried. De Blasio sais respect religion too.

    But we”re not there yet. There are plenty of refrigerated trucks ad more are on the way.

    Meanwhile the disases is getting worse in Suffolk County and surpassing in percentage in New York City. Some people have now noticed that African Americans (at least in some places) are hardest hiit and seem to think that is the big problem. They complain about not recording data by race.

    Sammy Finkelman (7cd5f4)

  206. What would be interesting is to use racial statistics as a tool to drill down. Instead of accusing the virus of discriminating.

    The reasons for the racial disparity probably are:

    1) Doctors tending not to be concerned about black people, perhaps because of a lack of continuity of care. Or having low expectations which exacerbates any real problem. More on Medicaid. Dozens f factors causing less diligence.

    2) African Americans having higher rates of certain diseases, like diabetes.

    3) African Americans having more service jobs, and travelling via mass transit, and larger families living in smaller quarters.

    4) Lack of education, less attention to news media, and less sticking to “law” or advice. (this won;t be said much)

    5) It just hits some places more than others.

    6) A false rumor some persons circulated that blacks ere immune. It may be the opposite.

    7) And there’s even been a denial that the disease is truly striking African Americans more.

    Minorities may be hardest hit, but not women.

    The reason might be genetic – women have 2 X chromosomes, and their cells can have two different kinds of ACE receptors, (each cell chooses which X chromosome to use)

    >n> And maybe some people are much more vulnerable to the disease than others. (that could explain why women as a class are, or could be, less vulnerable.)

    Sammy Finkelman (7cd5f4)

  207. Where I differ is that I think people have the right to make adult decisions based on risk for themselves. We dont need daddy government deciding one size fits all.

    Not at the expense- literally and figuratively- of ‘the rest of the family’ which those decisions affect. Do what addy says: be sure to write your name and SS # on your forearm w/indelible ink so the body can be easily identified.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  208. Living in fear based on predictions is for Nostradamus, but not for a free people.

    NJRob (4d595c) — 4/8/2020 @ 11:26 am

    that sounds cool. with all due respect it’s something you might see on a mountain dew carton or a bumper sticker.

    but fear is a gift. we should listen to our fear. Freedom is not literally the freedom to hurt others by doing anything the benefits us, because we aren’t the only person, and that would harm their freedom.

    We do have to consider reality when analyzing what is appropriate, what laws are necessary, what harms are too much. I’ve been pretty reasonable in granting your side of the argument, to the extent I honestly can, but I don’t think the idea that anticipating the future is the opposite of freedom at all.

    I think if you really think about it, refusing to accept the brutal facts until it’s too late is how we actually would lose our freedom. Desperation from failure would lead a corrupt government to take too much power. So freedom is a balancing act in this way as well.

    Dustin (fa728c)

  209. Prestigious scientific panel tells White House coronavirus won’t go away with warmer weather
    A prestigious scientific panel told the White House Tuesday that it doesn’t look like coronavirus will go away once the weather warms up. President Trump has claimed that “when it gets a little warmer [the virus] miraculously goes away.”

    In their letter to the White House, members of a National Academy of Sciences committee said data is mixed on whether coronavirus spreads as easily in warm weather as it does in cold weather, but that it might not matter much given that so few people in the world are immune to coronavirus.

    “There is some evidence to suggest that [coronavirus] may transmit less efficiently in environments with higher ambient temperature and humidity; however, given the lack of host immunity globally, this reduction in transmission efficiency may not lead to a significant reduction in disease spread without the concomitant adoption of major public health interventions,” according to the letter.

    The letter noted, for example, that a study of the outbreak in China showed that even under maximum temperature and humidity conditions, the virus spread “exponentially,” with every infected person spreading it to nearly two other people on average. ……

    RipMurdock (1d97e4)

  210. Those metrics are based on the same types of models that predicted the polar ice caps would’ve already disappeared and that NYC would be under water.

    The UW models have been solid. They have a track record.

    Paul Montagu (f57f23)

  211. So they’re using climate models to study a virus?

    Dave (1bb933)

  212. Most New York Coronavirus Cases Came From Europe, Genomes Show
    New research indicates that the coronavirus began to circulate in the New York area by mid-February, weeks before the first confirmed case, and that travelers brought in the virus mainly from Europe, not Asia.

    “The majority is clearly European,” said Harm van Bakel, a geneticist at Icahn School of Medicine at Mount Sinai, who co-wrote a study awaiting peer review.

    A separate team at N.Y.U. Grossman School of Medicine came to strikingly similar conclusions, despite studying a different group of cases. Both teams analyzed genomes from coronaviruses taken from New Yorkers starting in mid-March.

    The research revealed a previously hidden spread of the virus that might have been detected if aggressive testing programs had been put in place.

    On Jan. 31, President Trump barred foreign nationals from entering the country if they had been in China during the prior two weeks.

    It would not be until late February that Italy would begin locking down towns and cities, and March 11 when Mr. Trump said he would block travelers from most European countries. But New Yorkers had already been traveling home with the virus.

    “People were just oblivious,” said Adriana Heguy, a member of the N.Y.U team….
    …….
    Dr. Heguy and her colleagues found some New York viruses that shared unique mutations not found elsewhere. “That’s when you know you’ve had a silent transmission for a while,” she said.

    Dr. Heguy estimated that the virus began circulating in the New York area a couple of months ago.

    And researchers at Mount Sinai started sequencing the genomes of patients coming through their hospital. They found that the earliest cases identified in New York were not linked to later ones.

    “Two weeks later, we start seeing viruses related to each other,” said Ana Silvia Gonzalez-Reiche, a member of the Mount Sinai team.

    Dr. Gonzalez-Reiche and her colleagues found that these viruses were practically identical to viruses found around Europe. They cannot say on what particular flight a particular virus arrived in New York. But they write that the viruses reveal “a period of untracked global transmission between late January to mid-February.” …..

    RipMurdock (1d97e4)

  213. @212 New Orleans has one of the highest per-capita infection rates and it’s pretty warm there.

    Time123 (457a1d)

  214. It looks like Trump didn’t bad travel to China because of the memo. He did it after the airlines had already announced it.

    Note that this article was written in January and updated in Feb and is extremely light on commentary. A pretty straight news piece, and not a hit piece or political analysis.

    He really us a very timid leader in all things except rhetoric.

    Published Jan. 31, 2020
    Updated Feb. 10, 2020

    Moving to counter the spreading coronavirus outbreak, the Trump administration said Friday that it would bar entry by most foreign nationals who had recently visited China and put some American travelers under a quarantine as it declared a rare public health emergency.

    The temporary restrictions followed announcements by American Airlines, Delta Air Lines and United Airlines that they would suspend air service between the United States and China for several months.

    Time123 (457a1d)

  215. My view on how it is going with Coronavirus is Albany Georgia. It was hit hard early, but has only attracted fleeting notice from the national press. So the usual left / right culture war nonsense does not drive the coverage.

    And things remain tough there:

    https://www.walb.com/2020/04/08/watch-live-dougherty-co-leaders-address-latest-covid-wednesday-press-conference/

    People who want to put it all on a chart can do so here. Note that Georgia has not done well on getting testing done.

    https://www.phoebehealth.com/patients-and-visitors/coronavirus/coronavirus-update

    Appalled (1a17de)


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