Patterico's Pontifications

4/1/2020

The Right’s Callous Rhetoric About Coronavirus Deaths

Filed under: General — Patterico @ 8:24 am



Here are two statements that should shock you.

  • Republicans say the economic effects from social distancing could lead to increased suicides but the flu and car accidents kill people too.
  • Republicans say the economic effects from social distancing could lead to increased suicides but that’s really only a problem for the poor and depressed.

If you were to read those statements on a Twitter feed, you might become outraged. I can easily envision tweets like that going viral very quickly. Perhaps a quick hit on Twitchy starts the job rolling. Then some blue check Trumpers pick up the ball and carry it. Finally the tweets end up on Hannity or Tucker, an object lesson in how the left does not care about life.

And yet these are precisely the sort of comments people on the right have been making to dismiss the likely number of increased deaths from coronavirus. Hey, it’s not that many people, you know. And by the way, the people it hits are sort of expendable anyway.

The GOP used to cite the danger that ObamaCare and more government control over health care might pose to vulnerable seniors. Now the message — of Donald Trump until recently, and many of his fans even today — is: hey, this coronavirus thing might kill some people … but not that many and it’s just old people anyway. Some have even said: why, these old folks should be willing to sacrifice themselves to get the economy going again! (Hi, Dan Patrick!)

And what is richly ironic about much of this is that the same people who want us to care so deeply about the misery that might result from the fall of the economy are the very same people who have shrugged off the deaths from coronavirus as a minor inconvenience, like the flu or car accidents. President Donald John Trump being one glaringly obvious example.

Now, a couple of points that shouldn’t need to be said, but it’s the Internet so of course I have to say them.

First: In no way am I minimizing the tragedy of suicide. Suicide and attempted suicide are horrible, awful things that have touched people close to me. I am not making light of them. It’s actually the fact that they are so awful, if you truly understand them, that makes the statements so shocking — and thus makes my point so vividly.

Second: Yes, I understand that public policy requires calculation about life and death, and that can sound horrifying but it’s necessary. I don’t need a troop of incels giving me the ACKSHUALLY treatment in the comments to understand that. Here’s the thing: if deaths and misery from coronavirus are going to be treated as components in an equation, that is equally true of the deaths and misery that result from economic dislocation. And if you don’t like the tone of someone saying: hey, sure, economic dislocation will kill some people, but to make an omelet you gotta break a few eggs then that should be a clue to you that when you speak about death and misery from coronavirus, you are going to rub a lot of people the wrong way if you seem to minimize it. So maybe realize that all human suffering is bad, and that to speak of it as though you are shrugging your shoulders dismissively while you speak is not a good look.

I don’t think people realize just how callous people on the right have sounded lately. It’s truly remarkable. And the ultimate expression of this is the fact that, for Donald Trump and his greatest sycophants like Bill Mitchell, literally the most important thing about whether hundreds of thousands of Americans die is whether the numbers will show that Trump did a good job. Trump: “So you’re talking about 2.2 million deaths, 2.2 million people from this. And so if we could hold that down, as we’re saying, to 100,000. It’s a horrible number, maybe even less —but to 100,000. So we have between 100 and 200,000, and we altogether have done a very good job.” And Bill Mitchell:

Bill MItchell Ghoul

This is what they care about.

These people are soulless ghouls and among the worst humanity has to offer.

370 Responses to “The Right’s Callous Rhetoric About Coronavirus Deaths”

  1. Bill Kristol
    @BillKristol
    ·
    Whatever models show, it’s totally inappropriate to have “100-240,000 deaths” on this White House chart as a “goal.” The numbers give no useful guidance to anyone. They’re there for one reason: If we end up with fewer deaths or in the bottom of the range, Trump will take credit.
    __ _

    Jay Caruso
    @JayCaruso
    ·
    Can you stop, please? The “goal” in question is the effects of mitigation, not hitting a target number of deaths.

    __ _

    harkin (b64479)

  2. In spite of all the human misery the nation faces, we can at least take comfort and solace from the fact that his briefings have higher ratings than the season finale of The Bachelor.

    I am so thankful our president has his priorities in order.

    Glenn Wyant (a56320)

  3. This thread is going to be…interesting.

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827)

  4. I’m finding people who are focused on the political outcome — this shows that Trump is the best! this shows that Trump is the worst! — are insanely offensive right now regardless of what they think the political outcome is.

    This is the worst global crisis since the second world war. We need to recognize it as such and stop fighting with each other over tribal politics.

    aphrael (7962af)

  5. I wonder how many of the callous Right making these sorts of comments have actually lost someone near and dear to them because of coronavirus? To see the Right become cavalier death cultists like the Left (unlimited abortion), confirms that, in matters of life, there is very little daylight between the parties. No one holds the moral high ground. And how sad is that.

    Dana (4fb37f)

  6. It sure is sad that “The Right” is playing politics with the Chinese Virus- thank God the Democrats, Never Trumpers, and the Left have avoided that!

    rcocean (2e1c02)

  7. And poor Trump. Everyone else has supporters. He only has sycophants.

    rcocean (2e1c02)

  8. People die of the flu. They do it every year. No one cared, and no one cared in 2009 when Ebola hit. Now, every death due to the Chinese Flu is somehow worse – and more important – than a death from any other cause. Its perfectly sane and reasonable to think two things simultaneously; (1) that we should start thinking about how to lift the restrictions and not destroy our economy and by hysterical AND (2) understand the Chinee virus is a serious health crisis that will require short-term extreme measures.

    rcocean (2e1c02)

  9. > I wonder how many of the callous Right making these sorts of comments have actually lost someone near and dear to them because of coronavirus

    I started being seriously worried round about the end of February. One of the things which got me worried was thinking about the intersection of these two statistics:

    * left unchecked by social distancing, we can reasonably expect a novel disease which spreads easily via respiratory droplets to infect 60% of the population
    * absent hospital overwhelm the fatality rate appears to be on the order of 1%

    the obvious implication of that is that anyone with a sizeable social circle will personally know at least one, and possibly more, people who die from this.

    aphrael (7962af)

  10. rcocean, at 6: that sort of “my tribe is better than your tribe” chest beating is exactly what i’m talking about.

    aphrael (7962af)

  11. 8. People die from all causes in the millions every year. And the higher America’s population goes, the higher that number gets — year-by-year. If pointing that out makes me callous, I’ll leave it for others to judge. I just know that it’s a fact, and no matter how much time we spend cowering behind closed doors, the reaper gets us all in the end. You just can’t cheat him (her?).

    Gryph (08c844)

  12. No one cared, and no one cared in 2009 when Ebola hit.

    That’s just an insane statement. But what to expect from a T-rump cultist?

    Ragspierre (d9bec9)

  13. TRump has doing an incredible job. Thank God Bill Kristol’s hero Hillary wasn’t in charge. Like Biden, she’s in the Chi-coms pocket and would never have banned Travel from China till it was too late. No doubt “President Biden” would’ve been telling us to “hug a Chinese” in Feb and march. Only Trump had the guts to put the travel bans in place. BTW, Let me give props to Michael Savage, I thought was being hysterical about the Chinese Flu back in February, but he was right. Did he have inside info? Could be. But he was right and way ahead of the curve.

    rcocean (2e1c02)

  14. “ I’m finding people who are focused on the political outcome — this shows that Trump is the best! this shows that Trump is the worst! — are insanely offensive right now regardless of what they think the political outcome is.”
    __ _

    Totally agree, there is more than one type of infection.
    _

    Also offensive are those who parrot CCP talking points if it helps them score political points They should know better.

    Bloomberg
    @business
    ·
    BREAKING: China has concealed the extent of the coronavirus outbreak in its country, under-reporting both total cases and deaths, the U.S. intelligence community concluded in a classified report https://trib.al/m5xhKRh
    __ _

    The Partyman
    @PartymanRandy
    ·
    Our intrepid news media is only a month behind randos on twitter. Praise them

    _

    harkin (b64479)

  15. 3.5 million Americans die every year. That’s almost 10,000 a day. So, the Chinese Virus is not the grim reaper. Its not the black plague. We need to keep things in perspective AND fight the virus.

    rcocean (2e1c02)

  16. I think we could bring the numbers down to below 10,000 if we “quarantined” Trump.

    nk (1d9030)

  17. I mean total number of deaths from President Trump’s Coronavirus.

    nk (1d9030)

  18. My prayers are for those who are – or will be – fighting the ChineseWuhancoronavirus. My hopes and prayers are with those in the private sector who don’t have guaranteed jobs or paychecks and who are – or will be – facing a very bleak future if this unprecedented situation isn’t handled correctly.

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  19. rcocean, at 6: that sort of “my tribe is better than your tribe” chest beating is exactly what i’m talking about.

    The reality is we have an organized left/liberal movement in this country constantly trying to gain power and push its agenda. They attack anyone who gets in their way. They control the D Party and the Mainstream Media to name two organizations. They approve of Antifa attacking anyone who goes in public and protests them.

    Talking about “Tribes” is just Never trumper loser talk. When you’ve convinced the Liberal/left to stop acting like a “Tribe” than come back to me. All you want is unilateral disarmament.

    rcocean (2e1c02)

  20. “Also offensive are those who parrot CCP talking points if it helps them score political points They should know better.”

    We think we have it very well under control. We have very little problem in this country at this moment — five — and those people are all recuperating successfully. But we’re working very closely with China and other countries, and we think it’s going to have a very good ending for us … that I can assure you.

    China has been working very hard to contain the Coronavirus. The United States greatly appreciates their efforts and transparency. It will all work out well. In particular, on behalf of the American People, I want to thank President Xi!

    “Our intrepid news media is only a month behind randos on twitter. Praise them”

    You realize that the news is reporting a US intelligence report and not their own opinion? Wouldn’t this be more accurate to say “Our intrepid intelligence service is only a month behind randos on twitter?”

    Davethulhu (3857ea)

  21. > When you’ve convinced the Liberal/left to stop acting like a “Tribe” than come back to me. All you want is unilateral disarmament.

    *laugh*

    I have the exact same conversation with people I know on the left, say the exact same thing, and get the exact same response with the labels reversed.

    I want both groups to sit down and stop their partisan bleating. It’s actively making the situation worse.

    You want to argue against *policy*, that’s reasonable. You want to argue which group of people are better people? Doing so makes you part of the problem.

    aphrael (7962af)

  22. Conservative Inc. always attacks those on the Right who aren’t civil to the Left. Never the other way round. Why? Because they want jobs/gigs from the MSM. The whole goal of the Bulwark Boys, National Review, the Dispatch gang, etc. is to police the Right and get $$/attention from left-wing donors and the MSM. That’s why they are always talking about “Tribes” when some on the right try to fight back.

    rcocean (2e1c02)

  23. I want both groups to sit down and stop their partisan bleating. It’s actively making the situation worse.

    You’re either joking or out-of-touch with reality. Go talk to the Left and get them to agree with your position. Have you done so? Have you gone on Left-wing sites and stated we should stop forming “tribes”. If so, what was the reaction?

    rcocean (2e1c02)

  24. There are factors and barriers that help people avoid “normal” deaths. We use seatbelts and engineer cars to protect against car accident deaths, and try to design roads and have traffic controls for safety. We provide domestic violence shelters, mental health resources, gun safety courses, poison control centers, and warnings on dangerous activities and products. We vaccinate to protect people from known health problems and provide emergency care at every public/county hospital. But this is different. No one had antibodies to this disease, and there are no vaccines yet. Everyone is at risk in every country, and healthcare workers don’t have enough of the usual protective gear. To compare this with normal deaths is not helpful.

    DRJ (15874d)

  25. I imagine their reaction is the same as yours, rcocean 23.

    DRJ (15874d)

  26. LMAO When I read the headline I knew RC was going to have a complete stroke. Anyone whose sense of self is tied to ‘the right’ is going to be upset. People who are strongly motivated by respect for Tribe are going to really hate this take.

    Time123 (235fc4)

  27. The whole goal of the Bulwark Boys, National Review, the Dispatch gang, etc. is to police the Right and get $$/attention from left-wing donors and the MSM.

    Another literally insane bald allegation without a shred of evidence to support it.

    The sad, ugly truth is that nationalists NEED to depict the nation as warring tribes.

    Ragspierre (d9bec9)

  28. https://twitter.com/radiofreetom/status/1244738668088250368

    Speaking of callous horrific statements…

    NJRob (4d595c)

  29. The one thing we do have that we know will dramatically help “flatten the curve” and lessen the rate of outbreak, is to stay at home as much as possible. Yet we can’t even seem to do that effectively. While these aren’t normal deaths, we do have at least one weapon in our arsenal to help mitigate the damages, and yet even that is too much to ask for some.

    Dana (4fb37f)

  30. Rcocean, at 22:

    > You’re either joking or out-of-touch with reality. Go talk to the Left and get them to agree with your position. Have you done so? Have you gone on Left-wing sites and stated we should stop forming “tribes”. If so, what was the reaction?

    Interestingly enough, at 21 I said:

    > I have the exact same conversation with people I know on the left, say the exact same thing, and get the exact same response with the labels reversed.

    So I feel like I already answered your question.

    The deeply invested in both tribes are more interested in fighting over which tribe is better than they are in coming together to deal with a crisis as one country and one community.

    I find it profoundly depressing and irritating.

    aphrael (7962af)

  31. When Trump was strongly supported by the evangelical community I stopped believing that the evangelical community was strongly motivated by traditional Christian values and started looking for other explanations for their policy preferences.

    Many on the right have been able to make the argument that massive deaths are a small price to pay for uninterrupted economic growth without significant push back on moral grounds. The people of status who are vocal about the evil of abortion have been silent here. It makes me doubt that these people really care about the sanctity of life. To be very clear, I don’t think this is true of everyone that opposes abortion or speaks about the sanctity of human life.

    Time123 (ae9d89)

  32. NJRob: yeah, that tweet, and rhetoric like it, isn’t helping, either.

    aphrael (7962af)

  33. Time123,

    Many on the right have been able to make the argument that massive deaths are a small price to pay for uninterrupted economic growth without significant push back on moral grounds. The people of status who are vocal about the evil of abortion have been silent here. It makes me doubt that these people really care about the sanctity of life.

    I agree. See my comment at 3. Which brings Dan Patrick to mind, who claims to be pro-life but hopes older people will martyr themselves for the rest of us because their lives are no longer worth that much.

    Dana (4fb37f)

  34. Dana, Your point is spot on, which is unfortunate because their are many people of faith that do legitimately care about the sanctity of life. Their point if view just isn’t valued by the current part of Trump.

    Time123 (235fc4)

  35. Now all this heated rhetoric has gotten an actress stabbed… Reese… I forget the last name…

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  36. Dana,

    Dan Patrick’s point, which you haven’t acknowledged, is that the elderly, including himself, have lived a good life and shouldn’t sacrifice their children’s and grandchildren’s lives so they can have a few more years.

    Is that really that hard to understand?

    NJRob (4d595c)

  37. aphrael (7962af) — 4/1/2020 @ 9:30 am

    aphrael (7962af) — 4/1/2020 @ 9:46 am ++

    aphrael (7962af) — 4/1/2020 @ 9:47 am

    aphrael (7962af) — 4/1/2020 @ 9:59 am

    et.al.

    You have saved me much typing today. I wish I could buy you a coffee, or your favorite beverage, and that you could enjoy it in the place of your choosing. Sadly, thank you seems like all I can manage.

    frosty (f27e97)

  38. There are some hopeful examples. Here in CA, Gov. Newsom’s daily briefings on what the state is doing to combat the virus are refreshingly non-political. Newsom is doing a good job in leading the state’s response, and certainly is trying to do the best job he can. Whether his efforts benefit him politically at some point is utterly irrelevant. When the crisis ends as it inevitably will, maybe then I can indulge in the luxury of second-guessing and pretend to know for sure that Newsom should have done a better a job. He’s trying to save lives, so for now, the fact that pre-crisis the governor supported all the aspects of the Democratic agenda that I disagree with, has pretty much zero significance.

    Not to disagree with DRJ #24, but at some point it will be helpful to compare coronavirus deaths to “normal” deaths. Maybe not right now, because the focus has to be on keeping coronavirus deaths as low as possible, and it seems clear that even the experts can’t really say how bad the epidemic will be, so we have to act as if the more gruesome predictions are correct. So stay home, and if you have to go out, wear a mask, which may protect others whether or not it protects you.

    RL formerly in Glendale (40f5aa)

  39. RL formerly in Glendale: i’m not an Ohioan, but what you’ve just said mirrors exactly how I fel about Gov. DeWine right now. He’s been amazingly effective and done an incredible job, and my political differences with him are currently irrelevant.

    aphrael (7962af)

  40. frosty, thank you for your kind words. :) coffee is, it turns out, my favorite beverage. :) i’m sitting here drinking it trying to figure out how to make myself be productive today.

    aphrael (7962af)

  41. Aphrael,

    thank you. I would rather people focus on solutions rather than blame. Almost like how we came together, however briefly, after 9/11.

    Any chance that’s possible?

    NJRob (4d595c)

  42. It was July of 1999, when I was in one of the incessant “management team” meetings, and each of us had a numerical ‘goal’ for which we were responsible. I was the southern region Area Production Manager, while a fellow named Ken was the northern Area Production Manager, and he was in charge of safety for the company, which included fifteen ready-mixed concrete plants in Virginia.

    His numerical goal was fifteen lost time injuries for the year. Obviously, the goal was actually zero, but fifteen was supposed to be the top end. Ken asked, “If the end of the year is getting close, and we don’t have enough accidents, do we have to go out and hurt people?” Naturally it was snark, but there was an underlying question: if we had only, say, seven lost time injuries for 1999, would that mean his goal would be set at six the following year, and he’d be a failure if there were twelve?

    Obviously the goal is zero deaths, but you don’t have to have gone through MBA school to understand that yes, there are going to be accidents, or in 2020, deaths, and while the real goal will always be zero, there is a numerical level at which job performance will be deemed successful and one which will be deemed not so. Snopes noted that the viral meme that Italy was going to deny intensive care beds to patients over 80 was partially true, due to limited resources.

    100,000 to 240,000 deaths on a chart might seem like General “Buck” Turgidson’s line, “I’m not saying we wouldn’t get our hair mussed. But I do say no more than ten to twenty million killed, tops. Uh, depending on the breaks,” but on a macroeconomic level, we have to understand that casualties are inevitable. It’s bad optics to present the chart in public, but it’s still some recognition of reality.

    The Dana in Kentucky (fd0d45)

  43. NJRob — I’m holding out hope that the longer this goes on the more the tribal bickering will seem unhelpful and the more we’ll come together.

    This crisis is going to last well into the summer under the *best case* scenarios.

    aphrael (7962af)

  44. .. at some point it will be helpful to compare coronavirus deaths to “normal” deaths.

    It will. It’s fine to do it now, too, but IMO doing it now is like comparing apples and oranges.

    DRJ (15874d)

  45. Big. Picture.

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  46. French or Italian dark roast mixed with a dollop of Carolan’s has been my Sunday morning starter for a long time but since the lockdown it’s more often than not.

    The second cup is still just half & half.

    Productivity today is yard work but tonight is the beginning of the less-famous Kurosawa run I recorded overnight on TCM. Stray Dog, The Hidden Fortress, Red Beard, High And Low, Sanjuro……heaven!

    harkin (b64479)

  47. .. at some point it will be helpful to compare coronavirus deaths to “normal” deaths.“

    Also the elevation of ‘normal’ deaths because of the virus e.g. those whose afflictions weren’t diagnosed/treated in time because of everything from isolation to delays.
    _

    harkin (b64479)

  48. The people of status who are vocal about the evil of abortion have been silent here. It makes me doubt that these people really care about the sanctity of life. To be very clear, I don’t think this is true of everyone that opposes abortion or speaks about the sanctity of human life.
    Time123 (ae9d89) — 4/1/2020 @ 10:21 am

    I agree. These “people of status” may be wolves in sheep’s clothing, adopting a position that has proven politically/socially expedient. It won’t be until it could cost them dearly, to defend their position*, that all doubt can be removed. By the fruit you will know the tree.

    But in other matters, also of importance, I would argue that each and every one of us has been guilty of similar behavior (have you ever dated?). Of course I speak from personal experience, YMMV. Still, “let he who has not sinned..” does not mean “shut up,” but rather “are you perfect?”

    * Personally, I’m disappointed when anyone “walks back” a mistake instead of acknowledging and apologizing for it. I have been guilty of this, as well, so I know how hard it is to correct one’s self.

    felipe (023cc9)

  49. The Gov. of Florida has issued a “stay home order for the entire state.

    Ragspierre (d9bec9)

  50. I don’t think people realize just how callous people on the right have sounded lately. It’s truly remarkable.

    Lately? No. Remarkble? Not really; in recent yars, it’s ‘right’ in character– or lack there of:

    http://www.latimes.com/business/hiltzik/la-fi-harvey-aid-sandy-vote-20170828-story.html

    The representatives, and Republican Sens. Ted Cruz and John Cornyn, all voted against a $50.5-billion relief package for victims of 2012’s Superstorm Sandy when it came before them in January 2013. – source, LAT.com

    Parasites all.

    “Parasites can provide a safe haven for viruses to hide. Plus, the combined activity of parasites and viruses can disrupt immune system balance.” – Dr. Jay Davidson

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  51. The representatives, and Republican Sens. Ted Cruz and John Cornyn, all voted against a $50.5-billion relief package for victims of 2012’s Superstorm Sandy when it came before them in January 2013.

    There were sound reasons, too. Do you have the intellectual integrity to explore those?

    Ragspierre (d9bec9)

  52. The Dana in Kentucky (fd0d45) — 4/1/2020 @ 11:19 am

    Great comment, Dana the wise, it is my opinion that the slides Dr.B and Dr. F explained, which graphed projected deaths with full mitigation were used as fodder for “gotcha” questions to Trump, who neither created nor fully understand them.
    Dr. Strangelove, a great movie! For the longest time, my outgoing message on my landline (remember those?) was:

    You just start your countdown, and ol’ Bucky’ll be back before you can say…BLAST OFF!”

    felipe (023cc9)

  53. To me, Covid-19 decisions are about saving lives but also about how much risk we are willing to live with.

    My feeling is we know very little about this virus, it spreads indiscriminately, is world-wide, and everyone is poorly equipped to deal with it. All of that can change and will change, but we need time to make that happen. Thus, I don’t like the odds of ignoring the known and unknown risks and of not taking precautions.

    With normal activities and deaths from those activities, we know the risks, and we have taken precautions to avoid risks. People are equipped to make those decisions for themselves. That is why this us apples and oranges — because of the risks, not the lives at stake.

    Different parts of the country are more at risk at different times. In addition, people deal with risks in different ways. It is not surprising we don’t agree on this. The political aspects make it worse but IMO the divisions would be there anyway.

    DRJ (15874d)

  54. I agree. These “people of status” may be wolves in sheep’s clothing, adopting a position that has proven politically/socially expedient. It won’t be until it could cost them dearly, to defend their position*, that all doubt can be removed. By the fruit you will know the tree.

    Their followers bought it and moved on. There wasn’t a grass roots push back.

    Time123 (ae9d89)

  55. I would like to express my appreciation to those who have displayed a spirit of concord, here today. Especially to those who are collegial in the presence of baiting.

    felipe (023cc9)

  56. DRJ (15874d) — 4/1/2020 @ 11:54 am

    I feel the same way, DRJ.

    felipe (023cc9)

  57. I don’t think the problem is how anyone sounds “minimizing” the Wuhan virus OR the shutdown at this time.

    The problem is going to happen after things are reopened, and we come into the standard cold and flu season next fall. Yes, I know that the fatality rate from Wuhan is greater than the flu, but no one can deny that the flu stacks up a huge pile of bodies every year. And it’s a known disease with vaccinations available.

    So is this the new normal? Do we shut everything down when the deaths get to the thousands every year?

    Russ from Winterset (4fe966)

  58. When this first hit, comparisons were made to SARS and MERS. Those coronaviruses have death rates of 9 and 35% respectively. Because this is a new strain, I think overreacting at first is defensible, especially since it originated in China, a country not known for candor.

    Now that we know the virus has a fatality rate much closer to influenza, I think asking if the damages of shutting everything down will overshadow the damages of the virus. This does not necessarily need to be a political football.

    Russ from Winterset (4fe966)

  59. >Now that we know the virus has a fatality rate much closer to influenza, I think asking if the damages of shutting everything down will overshadow the damages of the virus.

    The problem is that on the order of 5% of confirmed cases require ICU support and without the ICU support will almost certainly die. So without the shutdowns we go from ~1% fatality (which is still enormous compared to flu) to ~5% mortality.

    aphrael (7962af)

  60. With normal activities and deaths from those activities, we know the risks, and we have taken precautions to avoid risks. People are equipped to make those decisions for themselves.

    No, they’re not; particularly when those ‘decisions’ put others at risk. Exhibit A: Pastor Howard-Browne; exhibit B: Pastor Spell.

    Left, right, agnostic, evangelical, communist or capitalist, etc., Corny-Vee is an equal opportunity killer.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  61. 49.The Gov. of Florida has issued a “stay home order for the entire state.

    Golly. On April 1, too– his day for it; there are no coincidences:

    “In the United States, spring break at works, universities and colleges can occur from March to April…” -source, wikipartyanimal

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  62. I would rather people focus on solutions rather than blame. Almost like how we came together, however briefly, after 9/11.

    Any chance that’s possible?

    NJRob (4d595c) — 4/1/2020 @ 11:14 am

    You mean, come together like this:

    Dana,

    Dan Patrick’s point, which you haven’t acknowledged, is that the elderly, including himself, have lived a good life and shouldn’t sacrifice their children’s and grandchildren’s lives so they can have a few more years.

    Is that really that hard to understand?

    NJRob (4d595c) — 4/1/2020 @ 10:48 am

    I’m going to assume that you missed my post about Dan Patrick. Patterico linked to it in this post. Perhaps you missed it. But still, that wouldn’t explain your unnecessary rudeness.

    Dana (4fb37f)

  63. Russ from Winterset (4fe966) — 4/1/2020 @ 12:16 pm

    The comparison between COVID19, SARS, MERS, and influenza should be made carefully. There is a chart here that I think is instructive. It shows the estimated range of mortality/contagion for some common pathogens. Some of that data may be old but the issues are still the same.

    It’s important to look at how deadly AND how contagious it is. For both MERS and SARS we didn’t solve them. We don’t have any effective vaccines for coronaviruses (plural, i.e. any of them). MERS and SARS killed people fast enough that they burned themselves out with minimal if any quarantine protocols. So, a deadlier virus that kills quickly can be less of a threat to the population as a whole. With respect to the flu, being only slightly deadlier but more contagious can be a big difference.

    The problem with COVID19 is that it’s contagious enough to infect a lot of people and then deadly enough to kill a significant fraction of those it infects. But of more concern, it makes a significant fraction severely ill.

    frosty (f27e97)

  64. With respect to the flu, being only slightly deadlier but more contagious can be a big difference.

    It’s important to keep the “slightly deadlier” numbers in mind. There is a massive difference between 0.1% of the flu, and 1% of CV-19, (yeah only 1% more, but 10X) except in outbreak zones, even western ones, it is approaching 10%.

    CV-19 is more than 2X as communicable, and at least 10X mortality rate of the flu. And those are stacking, so without significant isolation, the death toll could easily be 20X the seasonal flu.

    IT IS NOT THE FLU.

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827)

  65. frosty and Colonel Klink,

    Good comments. Thanks for providing reminders about the critical distinction between the two.

    Dana (4fb37f)

  66. This thread is going to be…interesting.

    I’ve deleted three comments and banned the commenters. iowan2 was one.

    Hint: if your comment does nothing but accuse me of “TDS” or call me “unhinged” or accuse me of writing the post as “clickbait” then I am removing you from my life for good, and I’m not even thinking twice about it.

    Patterico (115b1f)

  67. Frosty, good link!

    Time123 (235fc4)

  68. I’m finding people who are focused on the political outcome — this shows that Trump is the best! this shows that Trump is the worst! — are insanely offensive right now regardless of what they think the political outcome is.

    This is the worst global crisis since the second world war. We need to recognize it as such and stop fighting with each other over tribal politics.

    I find myself extra excitable these days.

    Someone cites the political donations of a woman who drank fish tank cleaner with her now dead husband, apparently to suggest she lied about hearing about it from Trump.

    Someone says the media was “gleeful” that America now had the most cases/deaths in the world — as if their sardonic irony critical of Trump is actually pleasure in Americans dying.

    The accusations fly hot and heavy, and what I might usually roll my eyes at, now enrages me, because it’s all life and death and people treat it like it’s a joke.

    Which is pretty much what this post is about.

    Patterico (115b1f)

  69. I’m going to disagree with you slightly in the case of the chloroquine phosphate lady, Pat.

    I don’t want to argue things on the scale of “Trump good, Never Trump bad” or vice versa, but I think looking at her behavior with politics in mind is reasonable. By her own words, she ingested a dangerous chemical that’s labeled as toxic because the president mentioned another chemical, the name of which is somewhat similar in his speech. Now, it becomes known that this woman was actively hostile to President Trump and donated money to groups working against him on the basis of his alleged hostility to science?

    Do you have to be a conspiracy nut to think “perhaps she’s not the sort of person who would accept PDJT’s recommendation so uncritically”? Now a big Trump fan doing this? Still dumb as hell, but there would be one reason to think “OK, that’s why she was receptive to this”.

    You’re a prosecutor, so I won’t insult your intelligence by telling you how things are done. You already know that the relevant DAs are looking into her internet search history and any recent changes to her husband’s insurance status.

    I don’t cotton to the “she killed him because she’s a LIBRUHL!” wackos, but if it turns out that she had some reasons other than wanting to prevent him from catching this bug to feed him a toxic chemical? I won’t be shocked. Given the track record of publicised “hate crimes” like Jussie Smollett and damn near all the campus diversity crimes out there? I think my scepticism is warranted.

    Russ from Winterset (eb46d0)

  70. I don’t know if “gleeful” is the emotion that mainstream media is evoking, but mine is anger. Right now, there are 4,713 dead Americans from the virus, and there was at least a month of opportunities missed.

    Paul Montagu (cbbfc4)

  71. Dana,

    I responded on your post and my remarks weren’t uncivil. You are treating his remarks in the worst possible light and ignoring his opinion. I’m asking you to look at it from his POV.

    NJRob (4f16bf)

  72. @70. ‘Social distancing’ seems to be working at all points of the compass but varying efforts at applying it- be it at personal discretion or mandatory enforcement, is a variable.

    If you can see a positive in this, it certainly is revealing the wackos on the map; be it zealot preachers – or Lt. Governors of Texas.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  73. >there was at least a month of opportunities missed.

    and we *still* have close to the worst testing availability in the world and one of the fastest growth rates in the world. (i’m hedging a bit because a lot of countries aren’t reporting reliable data, but in the industrialized world, we have far and away the fastest growth rate at this stage of the growth curve).

    there’s a lot to be angry at and reason to be livid at specific individuals, but it’s also much better to save that discussion until after the crisis has passed.

    aphrael (7962af)

  74. If we get 200,000 deaths from Covid-19, we’d be at the low end of what most people really expect.

    It is NOT callous to say that 200,000 people may die. Was everyone a callous monster when they ignored the 30-50,000 who die EACH YEAR from the flu? Is it callous to realize that we are mortal? Is it callous to recognize that there are stupid and/or reckless people who are expert at harming themselves?

    All I can do is take care of myself. I go out of the house maybe for 2 hours per week. They get more time in the yard at Folsom. And when I go out, I have my N95 mask and a fresh pair of nitrile gloves. But I do not want to live this way for 18 months. At some point the curve is flat enough.

    Sure, it is terrible to dismiss the deaths that will come from this pandemic, but it is equally reprehensible to use them to score political points. There seems to be a secret hope of some people that the butcher’s bill will be larger than the predicted minimum so that the hated Trump can be blamed. And even if it is less, they will still blame him.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  75. DCSCA 60,

    I think you misunderstood my comment about normal risks. It was a reference to my comment 24 where “normal” meant deaths from car accidents and other causes that we accept as risks of everyday life.

    DRJ (15874d)

  76. Dan Patrick is not my favorite politician but I see his comments on this topic as a recognition that older folks might be willing to assume more risks to protect younger folks’ futures. I don’t see him saying he wants old people to die.

    DRJ (15874d)

  77. In reality, every single government has screwed the pooch on this. More people will die than would have.

    If China had actually clamped down in Wuhan in December instead of late January, maybe this would not have spread so far. If Trump had acted in February instead of sitting on his “laurels”, maybe this could have been more limited (not sure – the virus was already here by the middle of January; we didn’t find out until we got a severe case). If various mayors and governors had acted more quickly maybe fewer would die. Also not clear — CA clamped down pretty fast, but still it’s going to be bloody. OTOH, Florida, where the governor didn’t act is going to be a nightmare with all the seniors there.

    I am angry, too. I am angry that Trump was slow to act on the things within his remit (particularly air travel — there should not have been a non-medical plane flying since Valentine’s Day). I am angry that some of the powers that be were slow on the uptake. There is no excuse for there not being enough masks, gloves, gowns or basic ventilators. We had about 2 months after “OH SH1T!”

    I am angry that China has not even got around to “Eat less bats” as a change for the future, so we will repeat this whole sorry episode in a few years.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  78. By her own words, she ingested a dangerous chemical that’s labeled as toxic because the president mentioned another chemical, the name of which is somewhat similar in his speech

    It wasn’t “slightly similar” Trump said Chloroquine, the drug name is Chloroquine Phosphate, the lady and her husband took Chloroquine Phosphate. It is, in fact, the exact same words, mainly because the compound is exactly the same. That it was an ingredient in fish tank cleaner doesn’t affect its chemical composition. They heard the president say it, see below, then they read the words…the same words.

    I don’t get why you’re trying to be misrepresent reality. Trump said it, there’s video, he said it later that week, tweeted it 12 times since, specifically said it yesterday on the news conference. The doctors, of course, continuously walk back the promise, because reality has to intrude into their world most of the time.

    People are living now that had no chance of living where we take treatments that would … Things that would have to go through years of a process. And if somebody was terminally ill and I would say, “Why wouldn’t they be able to try this?” They’d go to Asia, they’d go to Europe, they’d go all over the world to try and find something. Or some people, if they had no money, would go home to die. They’d go home to die. They had no hope. Right to try has been an incredible success, but this is beyond right to try. If treatments known to be safe in Europe, Japan or other nations are effective against a virus, we’ll use that information to protect the health and safety of American people. Nothing will stand in our way as we pursue any Avenue to find what best works against this horrible virus. Now, a drug called chloroquine, and some people would add to it, hydroxy, hydroxychloroquine, so chloroquine or hydroxychloroquine.

    Now, this is a common malaria drug. It’s also a drug used for strong arthritis. Somebody who has pretty serious arthritis also uses this in a somewhat different form, but it is known as a malaria drug and it’s been around for a long time and it’s very powerful. But the nice part is it’s been around for a long time, so we know that if it … If things don’t go as planned, it’s not going to kill anybody. When you go with a brand new drug, you don’t know that that’s going to happen. You have to see and you have to go long test. But this has been used in different forms, very powerful drug in different forms and it’s shown very encouraging, very, very encouraging early results, and we’re going to be able to make that drug available almost immediately. And that’s where the FDA has been so great. They’ve gone through the approval process, it’s been approved, and they did it. They took it down from many, many months to immediate.

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827)

  79. > There seems to be a secret hope of some people that the butcher’s bill will be larger than the predicted minimum so that the hated Trump can be blamed.

    I don’t know anyone who harbors that hope. Yeah, a lot of sane people think it would be nice if we could get rid of Trump. No, no sane person wants 200,000 people to die so we can get rid of Trump.

    I find the perception of such a desire, and the insistence that it is there, to be massively dehumanizing and based on … nothing, from what I can see.

    aphrael (7962af)

  80. @57 I suspect that we may retain some habits from our response to coronavirus that will reduce transmission of (and so death from) the regular flu as well. For (extreme) example, prohibition was actually good for the health of the country as a whole. We were drinking A HELL OF A LOT before prohibition, but once we got into the habit of drinking other things than alcohol, we never went back to consuming THE INSANE AMOUNT OF ALCOHOL that we had been consuming before prohibition, even after prohibition was lifted, and so we had a much reduced level of alcoholism, accidents related to alcohol, better livers, and stronger immune systems in general and fewer people died of those things.

    Nic (896fdf)

  81. > Also not clear — CA clamped down pretty fast, but still it’s going to be bloody.

    Yes, absolutely, but i’ve got to say that i’m enormously proud of the bay area local governments on this — they didn’t get it as soon as they should have but they got it sooner than anywhere else in the country and it looks like it may have been enough to keep the death toll comparatively very, very small.

    The fact that DeSantis didn’t act until today is utterly insane.

    aphrael (7962af)

  82. Dan Patrick is not my favorite politician but I see his comments on this topic as a recognition that older folks might be willing to assume more risks to protect younger folks’ futures. I don’t see him saying he wants old people to die.

    I don’t even see that. I see it as saying that older folks might be willing to assume responsibility for their well-being, and not be expecting the rest of the world to stop in order to protect them.

    “Social distancing” for me means you don’t get a chance to come close to me without me wearing gloves, a mask, glasses and a windbreaker I’m gonna wash when I get home. And that’s for about 3 short trips to the grocery each week. Don’t seem to be able to get by with less. Other than that, it means I’m inside my house and you’re outside it.

    If the economy was running it would actually be easier for me, and my investments wouldn’t be tanking as they are now — a long-term health issue in case you didn’t know.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  83. No, no sane person wants 200,000 people to die so we can get rid of Trump.

    No, but since 200,000 people ARE going to die, they’ll have no problem bashing him with it.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  84. Remember, they were saying 1.7 million US residents would die, at the start of March.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  85. Trump said Chloroquine

    More than once. Utterly irresponsible. But then Trump is, if anything a shallow thinker. I don’t blame him for a guy drinking chemicals though. Stupid is as stupid does.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  86. Someone cites the political donations of a woman who drank fish tank cleaner with her now dead husband, apparently to suggest she lied about hearing about it from Trump.

    I wouldn’t say she “lied” but I don’t believe someone who’s a leftist and has given mucho dinero to Left wing causes including Left-wing “science” non-profits would do something based on Trump’s word. In fact, I would expect them to try to blame Trump for their own stupidity.

    rcocean (2e1c02)

  87. except in outbreak zones, even western ones, it is approaching 10%.

    10% of what? Tested cases that are already severe by testing rule? You should be embarrassed to quote such section-biased statistics.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  88. The anti-malaria drugs seem to help, but obviously the Government medical experts aren’t going to say that too loudly. The last thing you want is to label it the “wonder drug” and then have a zillion nutcases go out and try to hoard it. I see the FBI arrested some Brooklyn guy who was hoarding and price gouging Hospital masks.

    rcocean (2e1c02)

  89. Col. Klink, he did not mention chloroquine phosphate. He said chloroquine. Plus he talked about people taking it under a doctor’s care. If he had suggested Mac Gyvering up a homebrew cure, then I would be with you. But he didn’t. PDJT says enough dumb things that we don’t have to make things up to criticize him with.

    By my bigger point still stands. She has a history of thinking PDJT is a nitwit, but she’s willing to take a labeled poison into her body on his sorta kinda fuzzy sayso? You don’t have to be Sherlock Holmes to see the problem with that.
    Even Baskerville Holmes could see that one coming a mile away.

    Russ from Winterset (eb46d0)

  90. if some of the Trump haters in the comments section were to do something dumb and then say they did it because they “Believed Trump” I would very skepitcal of that excuse.

    rcocean (2e1c02)

  91. It’d be just like a crazed liberal – full of hatred for Trump – to try to injure him by claiming they did something stupid because “we believed Trump”. Fits the pattern.

    rcocean (2e1c02)

  92. 89… there’s more to the story. The wife is a real pieceo’work…

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  93. I see it as saying that older folks might be willing to assume responsibility for their well-being, and not be expecting the rest of the world to stop in order to protect them.

    Yes. That goes double for my wife and I.

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  94. I don’t even see that. I see it as saying that older folks might be willing to assume responsibility for their well-being, and not be expecting the rest of the world to stop in order to protect them.

    But it’s not just a risk for them, people infect other people, and it’s not just old people. Old people infect young people, young people then die.

    I just don’t understand defending stupid. Patrick was misinformed, or is an idiot, about the risk, so it’s not just him, or some other random old’s risk, they put every single person that shares airspace, or surfaces that they touch, for hours or days later, at risk.

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827)

  95. @ Kevin M,

    It is NOT callous to say that 200,000 people may die.

    Do you really think your usage of the number is the same as the President of the United States saying this:

    “So you’re talking about 2.2 million deaths, 2.2 million people from this. And so if we could hold that down, as we’re saying, to 100,000. It’s a horrible number, maybe even less —but to 100,000. So we have between 100 and 200,000, and we altogether have done a very good job.”

    Dana (4fb37f)

  96. Remember, they were saying 1.7 million US residents would die, at the start of March.

    Who, Trump was saying 1.5M-2.2M…yesterday.

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827)

  97. Col. Klink, he did not mention chloroquine phosphate. He said chloroquine. Plus he talked about people taking it under a doctor’s care. If he had suggested Mac Gyvering up a homebrew cure, then I would be with you. But he didn’t. PDJT says enough dumb things that we don’t have to make things up to criticize him with.

    You can’t be that thick.

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827)

  98. That it was an ingredient in fish tank cleaner doesn’t affect its chemical composition.

    This product had to be clearly labeled “not for human consumption”, as it was not a medication.

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  99. > Remember, they were saying 1.7 million US residents would die, at the start of March.

    And absent the social distancing measures in place in almost all states today, that was a plausible outcome, and the fear of that outcome is part of why we got the social distancing measures.

    aphrael (7962af)

  100. “ It is NOT callous to say that 200,000 people may die.“

    – Kevin M

    It’s callous to act like it’s not a big deal – and callous and craven to ignore the fact that 200,000 people might have been saved if this country had better leadership in a time of crisis.

    Leviticus (28a6ca)

  101. When the label has big red letters on it saying POISON DO NOT INGEST, I think it’s valid. Plus, he specifically mentioned that it was being used by doctors. Doctors. Not essential oils experts.

    I think you’re reaching to blame him for this woman’s stupidity.

    Russ from Winterset (eb46d0)

  102. T

    here are some hopeful examples. Here in CA, Gov. Newsom’s daily briefings on what the state is doing to combat the virus are refreshingly non-political

    Newsom appears to be “non-political” because the liberal press corps is 100 percent in his corner and the Republican Party in California is dead as a doornail. Trump, OTOH, has a WH press corps and national media that gives him 92% negative coverage, no matter what. AND a Democrat Speaker who hates him and tried to remove him from office through impeachment, and a Senate Minority leader who is so abusive and aggressive, the threatens anyone who disagrees with him, even SCOTUS Judges.

    The two situations are entirely different. So, Newsome can afford to be “Non political”.

    rcocean (2e1c02)

  103. Dan Patrick is not my favorite politician but I see his comments on this topic as a recognition that older folks might be willing to assume more risks to protect younger folks’ futures.

    His comments are understandable, but they’re not agreeable. And they could well backfire and make things worse.
    By him and other seniors taking one for the team, means that a whole slew of non-seniors will get infected. Per the CDC, 40% of those hospitalized are 20-54. Opening these floodgates will only further tax front-line healthcare professionals and could well overload the system, like in Italy. I also think it’s morally wrong to tacitly agree to kill off a generation of human beings for the sake of our GDP.

    Paul Montagu (cbbfc4)

  104. Finally, the reason in the past that Republican have “callously” voted against relief bills is because the Democrats – just like they did with the Stimulus package – load it up with Pork and Democrat political agenda items that have zero to do with relief/stimulus. Its a rather disgusting game they play, and its sad that people let them get away with it.

    rcocean (2e1c02)

  105. f the chicoms
    Send the schiff they made back in a box.
    F^=k the companies making schiff in that schiff hole country.

    mg (8cbc69)

  106. But it’s not just these two idiots. There has been a run on this cocktail across the board, with still not a single positive clinical trial. In fact with several negative clinical trials. It’s promotion by Trump has, is, will continue, to divert resources.

    It’s inarguable that has happened. Two idiots listening to a third, happened. The third idiot happens to be the president. Sad!!!

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827)

  107. The problem with “eff China” right now? We’re inescapably tied to them for essential materials and products for the time being.

    Wasn’t it Churchill who said “diplomacy is the ability to say ‘nice doggie nice doggie’ while you’re reaching for a stick”?

    Smart fella, that Churchill.

    Russ from Winterset (eb46d0)

  108. Wait, are you talking about clinical trials for fishtank cleaner, or clinical trials for an antimalaria drug that’s been in service for about 80 years? Because your comment isn’t that clear.

    One of them has proven to be safe for human use, while the other has a big ol’ POISON sticker slapped on it. Kind of hard to confuse the two.

    Russ from Winterset (eb46d0)

  109. I see it as saying that older folks might be willing to assume responsibility for their well-being, and not be expecting the rest of the world to stop in order to protect them.

    It’s a shame we’re talking about a communicable disease that can spread from people “willing to assume responsibility” to others who would prefer to maximize their chances of staying alive.

    And does “assuming responsibility” include passing up medical treatment if they fall ill?

    Dave (1bb933)

  110. Republicans say the economic effects from social distancing could lead to increased suicides but the flu and car accidents kill people too.

    It’s not suicides but people left behind in nursing homes with no visitors. This is completely foreseeable. Includes person discharged from hospital to nursing home I heard on radio call. Elderly man (father or father in law) pulled out ventilator tube. Also in general people who get no visitors.

    Democrats not used to thinking about that since they are tied to unions. In fact both parties may miss some things that affect ordinary people.

    Rush L says Dems will make it lives with money. Says need hope for reopening even if it is Nov.

    (Wimbledown in GB cancelled but NFL claims season is on for Sept.)

    Says Dems hate or don’t understand profit.

    Sammy Finkelman (1a8726)

  111. Here’s a sobering look at how one person (“patient 31″) screwed a whole country:

    The Korean clusters

    Dave (1bb933)

  112. What I say: The truth is whole stimulus package was wrong. Stimulus won’t work. Needed to make line if credit available equal to bank deposit Jan and Feb combined. I’d say 3 x as much. Worry about the economic mess later,

    Rush says no need to worry though about people avoiding working because they’ll get more through unemployment, People want to work – and get more money. (Also could say there would be be some overlap.) So by him that should have been a non worry.

    It’s pretty simple to administer hydrochrolquine and it acts as a prevenetative. Good for first responders at least. Simple test: People currently taking it through Medicare for lupus or arthritis, did any of them test positive? They discovered it that way in China accidentally. There are a few counter-indications heart arrythnmias.

    They are still sticking mostly to medical protocol. Now it is true in East Afruca in early 1960s they would sell new meds disconontinue after about 6 months – made in India or Italy but it is possible to avoid that without being super cautious against all logic. In fact then medicine that came from France was good.)

    Sammy Finkelman (1a8726)

  113. @75. Right. Understood. Misinterpreted; daily calculated risks vs. unnecessary risks.

    _________

    ‘It is NOT callous to say that 200,000 people may die.’

    Better red state than dead state, eh Kevin?! Reaganomics. 😉

    “A single death is a tragedy; a million deaths is a statistic.” ― Joseph Stalin

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  114. Hope you’re doing alright, Sammy. Good to see your comments again.

    Leviticus (28a6ca)

  115. @110. Wouldn’t be sourcing Rush L as a go-to-guy these days, Sammy. Has Doctor Rushbo apologized yet? Lest ye forget:

    “Yeah, I’m dead right on this. The coronavirus is the common cold, folks.” – Rush Limbaugh, ‘The Rush Limbaugh Show,’ 2-24-2020

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  116. A few NYT obituaries because of the coronovirus.

    Sad to hear Willliam Helmreich,

    https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/30/nyregion/william-helmreich-dead-coronavirus.html

    Wrote a number of very good books,

    “Wake Up, Wake Up to Do the Work of the Creator” (1977).

    The World of the Yeshiva: An Intimate Portrait of Orthodox Judaism” (1982).

    “Against All Odds: Holocaust Survivors and the Successful Lives They Made in America” (1992), (the first one I read, not the first one he wrote0

    , “The New York Nobody Knows: Walking 6,000 Miles in the City” (2013), (a late book I don;t think I read that one)

    Read the obitutuary.

    He was born on Aug. 25, 1945 in Zurich from Jewish refugees smuggle out of Belgium,

    Hope he was not denied any treatment even if because of a stupid living will.

    Sammy Finkelman (1a8726)

  117. 115. Feeling alittle it better. Still not good. Been writing mostly for help in food delivery.

    Still haeve se problwm, Nibir irritation in troat.

    Sammy Finkelman (1a8726)

  118. Are you anywhere near Central Texas, Sammy?

    Dustin (928d9a)

  119. 116. DCSCA (797bc0) — 4/1/2020 @ 3:13 pm

    Wouldn’t be sourcing Rush L as a go-to-guy these days, Sammy. Has Doctor Rushbo apologized yet?

    He half apologized pretty soon. Of course it si impossible to tell what it equals.

    He is now acaeful not to endorse even things he has personal experience with like the lung diallysis used in lung operations like dialysis.

    I thought his comment about give us a date even if it is November was good. Some of hat he says is god some bad.

    Sammy Finkelman (1a8726)

  120. “Yeah, I’m dead right on this. The coronavirus is the common cold, folks.” – Rush Limbaugh, ‘The Rush Limbaugh Show,’ 2-24-2020

    DCSCA (797bc0) — 4/1/2020 @ 3:13 pm

    That gave me the idea for the title of a movie:

    “The Uncommon Cold” (Imaginary, 1989)

    In the year 2020, nations of the world go crazy over a not very deadly infection. Travel restrictions aplenty, and everything gradually shuts down. The president of the United States is Donald Trump. Not the Andromeda Strain. ** 1/2. (Dir. James Cameron.)

    But it may be a little but more serious than that.

    Sammy Finkelman (1a8726)

  121. Dustin (928d9a) — 4/1/2020 @ 3:19 pm

    Are you anywhere near Central Texas, Sammy?

    Brooklyn’s pretty far away from there.

    I got adelivery from my brother (through a son in law of his He came with a mask. ) will get more tomorrow or Fruday. Also things for Seder.

    Sammy Finkelman (1a8726)

  122. I think Sammy is in Brooklyn, IIRC, unless he’s relocated.

    Dana (4fb37f)

  123. 101. Russ from Winterset (eb46d0) — 4/1/2020 @ 2:48 pm

    hen the label has big red letters on it saying POISON DO NOT INGEST, I think it’s valid.

    A lot of peopler would but people are told things don’t work that they are told from many sources do.

    Should nevertheless distinguish between a standard prescription package and something like this. It was partly the fault of people lying,

    Sammy Finkelman (1a8726)

  124. Smart fella, that Churchill.

    The Gallipoli dead might disagree:

    ‘In January 1916, after eight months’ fighting, with approximately 250,000 casualties on each side, the [Gallipoli] land campaign was abandoned and the invasion force withdrawn. It was a costly defeat for the Allies and for the sponsors, especially First Lord of the Admiralty (1911–1915), Winston Churchill. The campaign was considered a great Ottoman victory.’ – source,wikicigarsmoke

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  125. Two days ago I say through CBS Evening News and didn’t learn anything.

    What i knew was not explained. Like why the testing and tracking worked in South Korea, (They had tests. They tracked people through GPS cellphones.)

    Trump was afraid people were stealing masks. Problem was he couldn’t understand why so many were needed. The day before Cuomo was at least thinking Trump throught there was hoarding.

    Yes maybe they can be washed but that wasn’t protocol. They are easy to manufacture though,

    You got the feeling that Trump was afraid of running out of US stockpile and in fact they are doing so,

    Sammy Finkelman (1a8726)

  126. @122. You just stay inside, Sammy, get deli deliveries if you can– go into blizzard mode, cook up what you’ve got in the freezer, don’t let the ambulance sirens drive you crazy– or spring weather tempt you to spend time outside. Heard they’ve closed the playgrounds today there, too.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  127. > The two situations are entirely different. So, Newsome can afford to be “Non political”.

    watch the actual presentations, not the press reporting. they’re all streamed online.

    aphrael (7962af)

  128. >Worry about the economic mess later,

    people who lost their jobs need a way to pay rent and buy food. for most of them, there aren’t jobs for them to go to, and won’t be until the crisis has passed.

    that has to be worried about *now*.

    aphrael (7962af)

  129. Did you know that Schwarzenegger had CA build up an emergency stock of ventilators and other medical supplies, but Jerry Brown got rid of it to save money?

    https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2020-03-27/coronavirus-california-mobile-hospitals-ventilators

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  130. 129. This is what a blind panic looks like. Blind. Panic.

    Gryph (08c844)

  131. This is what a blind panic looks like. Blind. Panic

    Planning for people to pay their bills is blind panic.

    Please, tell us what planning is?

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827)

  132. 133. No. Blind panic is people putting their fear (and their trust in government to alleviate it) above my need to pay my bills. In a perfect world, I wouldn’t have to worry about getting my s**t paid and neither would anyone else.

    Gryph (08c844)

  133. Who, Trump was saying 1.5M-2.2M…yesterday.

    The “party on” number varied in early March, but was anywhere between 1.2 and 2 million. Even Patterico suggested it would be high. The baseline damage done by something that is “10 times worse than the flu” should reasonably be more deaths than the flu.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  134. people who lost their jobs need a way to pay rent and buy food.

    If you were making $15/hour at a job in California, you will be receiving about 150% of your previous pay, without any payroll deductions, so call it 170% of the working wage.

    How is that? Regular unemployment insurance will give you about half of your base wage, and the feds will tack on $600/week ($15 x 40 hours) for the first four months (and if this goes on for more than 4 months all bets are off).

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  135. If you were making $4000/month, UI is $450/week plus the same $600 from the feds, or a little over $000/month. Again with no payroll taxes.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  136. *a little over $4000/month

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  137. The “party on” number varied in early March, but was anywhere between 1.2 and 2 million. Even Patterico suggested it would be high. The baseline damage done by something that is “10 times worse than the flu” should reasonably be more deaths than the flu.

    On an average year, 50k for the flu. The best case scenario is, 100k to 240k, 2X to 5X the flu, and the worst case of 2.2M, is 44X. I think that would qualify.

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827)

  138. >Regular unemployment insurance will give you about half of your base wage, and the feds will tack on $600/week ($15 x 40 hours) for the first four months (and if this goes on for more than 4 months all bets are off).

    *because* we took action. I was responding to the suggestion that we should just let the economic consequences shake out and worry about them later.

    aphrael (7962af)

  139. In a perfect world, I wouldn’t have to worry about getting my s**t paid and neither would anyone else.

    I see your problem.

    Actually, pretty much everyone has seen…heard…smelled your problem for weeks now.

    Nobody is in a blind panic. The world is dealing rationally with one of those things that happens in an imperfect world. Hitch up your britches.

    Ragspierre (d9bec9)

  140. > No. Blind panic is people putting their fear (and their trust in government to alleviate it) above my need to pay my bills. In a perfect world, I wouldn’t have to worry about getting my s**t paid and neither would anyone else.

    In the world where public gatherings were not shut down, the casualty rate would have been catastrophic. My restaurant industry friends’ ability to pay their bills doesn’t come before the ability of their grandparents to stay alive, and *there isn’t a single one of them* who is opposed to the shutdown. Worried about how they’re going to make rent in NYC, absolutely, all of them. Think the order was misplaced? not a one of them.

    aphrael (7962af)

  141. This isn’t a perfect world. This is an imperfect world dealing with a crisis none of us were expecting to happen this year and which, as a result, none of us were prepared for. We have a selction of sucky choices to pick from.

    aphrael (7962af)

  142. > without any payroll deductions,

    in California, while you can get the money with no deductions, you *still owe taxes on it*, so if you don’t get it deducted, you’d damned well better have a plan for next April.

    aphrael (7962af)

  143. >The best case scenario is, 100k to 240k, 2X to 5X the flu

    and this only after we took unprecedented-in-any-of-our-lifetimes actions which short circuited the economy.

    aphrael (7962af)

  144. Hey Trump wants to build two more hospital ships to treat coronavirus. Let’s get on that, the Mercy took 4 years to build, maybe we can get one in 2 years.

    Wait, I know, Trump didn’t mean the words he said, he meant some other words, with other meaning, but as long as we change the words he says to the words he should have said, it’s fine. No, not fine, perfection, 10 out of 10.

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827)

  145. *because* we took action. I was responding to the suggestion that we should just let the economic consequences shake out and worry about them later.

    When I saw what the support level was, I realized that since Republicans had signed off on this huge program, the actual damage this pandemic was going to do was biblical.

    When this is all over, I hope that we look into wtf the Chinese thought they were doing, and what the potential is for events like this going forward. There’s a tort in here somewhere.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  146. >When I saw what the support level was, I realized that since Republicans had signed off on this huge program, the actual damage this pandemic was going to do was biblical.

    Honest question for you: what does it say about the state of the world that you couldn’t believe the actual damage would be biblical *until the Republicans in the legislature lined up behind a historically unprecedented immense bailout package*?

    aphrael (7962af)

  147. I don’t know anyone who harbors that hope.

    You need to look around the internet more. There are people who would applaud the sun going nova it they could blame it on Trump.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  148. Honest answer: there is so much lying going on, on all dies and in all forums, that I can only watch feet to see the truth.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  149. *dies = sides

    My fingers are dyslexic.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  150. > There are people who would applaud the sun going nova it they could blame it on Trump.

    No doubt. There are also people who think that the Republicans approving the package isn’t a sign that the pandemic is going to be biblical in effect, but rather a sign that the Republicans are all traitors who have sold out the country.

    I think both of them are groups that are marginal and irrelevant and focusing attention on them simply gives them power.

    aphrael (7962af)

  151. In the world where public gatherings were not shut down…

    where people weren’t allowed to schiff in the streets or on the floor of a supermarket, inject hard drugs in public, etc., etc.

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  152. I posted this on the David Lat thread, but I’ll post it here, too:

    Follow-up on David Lat, as he prepares to leave hospital:

    https://www.law.com/newyorklawjournal/2020/04/01/how-grateful-david-lat-eyeing-hospital-discharge-is-contributing-to-covid-19-research/

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  153. where people weren’t allowed to schiff in the streets or on the floor of a supermarket, inject hard drugs in public, etc., etc.

    I just wish they wouldn’t carry their lapdogs as the peruse the salad bar.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  154. There are people who would applaud the sun going nova it they could blame it on Trump.

    That puts Mr. President Trump, who is not an accountant from China, on the same level as former Mr. President Obama (who never even branded a coronavirus as President Obama’s Coronavirus).

    nk (1d9030)

  155. >where people weren’t allowed to schiff in the streets or on the floor of a supermarket, inject hard drugs in public, etc., etc.

    that’s not particularly relevant to this pandemic. this pandemic is spread by perfectly normal middle class people coughing on each other. you could jail all the drug users and homeless people and it wouldn’t shift the epidemiological curve on *this* disease a noticeable amount.

    aphrael (7962af)

  156. you could jail all the drug users and homeless people</em

    My allergist told me that traveling to a place with significant homeless would be a bad idea. He felt that such camps of poor-self-care people were a fantastic breeding ground for a contagious disease.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  157. We should’ve moved to St. George, UT in 4Q’19 as I just reminded my wife.

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  158. Drug users, otoh, assuming they aren’t homeless, are generally no worse than your run-of-the-mill 20-something bachelor.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  159. He could have stopped at…

    My allergist told me that traveling would be a bad idea.

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827)

  160. you could jail all the drug users and homeless people

    I’d be happy to see them shipped off to a specially constructed camp a few miles outside Alturas, Ca., where they could elect their own “mayor”, city council and live the lives they aspire to.

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  161. My allergist mostly tells me things like, “You might want to think about shots again. People aren’t necessarily using the same garden plants they used to use and we’ve made some changes in the local common plant pollen list.”

    Nic (896fdf)

  162. Some industries are really taking it on the chin with this lock-down. Example: Comic book publishing has stopped. Not only are the local comic stores all shut, but the distribution network is too now. As a result Marvel, DC, Image and many of the other publishers have decided that they will not sell digital versions until the print market resumes.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  163. My allergist told me that traveling would be a bad idea.

    This was a long time ago — maybe early March.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  164. I have plenty of food more than I can eat – including pre-cooked food my brother’ wife I think made – what I don’t have is much of an appetite, or too much energy. I didn’t even answer Census forms today. (I wanted to do it today)

    I have something of a cold maybe. Not that serious maybe. I should rest more. Maybe that helps. I am almost taking too many vitamins.

    When said I was writing about food I meant particular food – like I got two jars Gefen apple sauce can use for Pasaover or can use before – I started one – I wanted more.

    Or more carbonatated soda particularly good is Seagrams.

    Or Friedndship 4% cottage cheese.

    I am getting or got all that.

    Most stores don’t deliver although I heard some did.

    Sammy Finkelman (1a8726)

  165. Trump said that he doesn’t think it’s necessary for the public to wear masks and that “in a certain way a scarf is better, it’s actually better.”

    Good lord.

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827)

  166. First resort of fascists, to blame vulnerable populations in a time of crisis.

    Leviticus (28a6ca)

  167. 164. Kevin M (ab1c11) — 4/1/2020 @ 5:13 pm

    Example: Comic book publishing has stopped.

    What!?

    Newspapers are printing.

    I see the reason is this is not delivered by mail or home delivery.

    Magazines seem all right.

    I read that New Mexico and southern Colorado is actually a hot spot.

    https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/30/health/coronavirus-restrictions-fevers.html

    To identify clusters of coronavirus infections, Kinsa recently adapted its software to detect spikes of “atypical fever” that do not correlate with historical flu patterns and are likely attributable to the coronavirus.

    As of noon Wednesday, the company’s live map showed fevers holding steady or dropping almost universally across the country, with two prominent exceptions.

    One was in a broad swath of New Mexico, where the governor had issued stay-at-home orders only the day before, and in adjacent counties in Southern Colorado.

    Sammy Finkelman (1a8726)

  168. 167. Close to what Dr Fauci is saying except maybe for a scarf being better, Easier, for sure. Trump usually has some sort of basis for saying things The thing is to find out what it is and if it is good.

    If there were an unlimited number of masks Fauci would say let everyone wear them. He doesn’t want to keep them away from people tending sick people. Could also be used to stop infecting others.

    For some people for some reason it is a mystery why sicker people have more virus particles.

    Interesting footnote: Twice as many men as women are very sick or dying with coronovirus. No on e has offered any explanation. Or maybe wants to.

    Sammy Finkelman (1a8726)

  169. More on wearing scarves and masks from Dr. Trump:

    You know, you can use a scarf. A lot of people have scarves. And you can use a scarf. A scarf would be very good.

    We’re making millions and millions of masks. But we want them to go to the hospitals. I mean, one of the things that Dr. Fauci told me today is we don’t want them competing — we don’t want everybody competing with the hospitals, where we really need them.

    My feeling is, if people want to do it, there is certainly no harm to it. But I would say do it, but use a scarf if you want, rather than going out and getting a mask or whatever.

    So you can use scarves, you can use something else over your face. It doesn’t have to be a mask, but it’s not a bad idea, at least for a period of time.

    Dana (4fb37f)

  170. Doctors respond:

    Doctors told CNBC that there are pros and cons to using masks, makeshift or otherwise, in public.

    “As far as the general public is concerned, the do-it-yourself option of wearing a scarf or bandana may be the best we can do at this point,” said Dr. William Schaffner, medical director of the National Foundation for Infectious Diseases.

    Dr. Angela Hewlett of the Infectious Diseases Society of America said that wearing a scarf or bandana could protect others from the spread of the coronavirus. It might also keep people from touching their faces, she said.

    “A scarf acts sort of like a handkerchief or a tissue,” Hewlett said. “If you’re wearing a scarf around your face, or another homemade mask, then there’s a chance that your secretions will be contained in that as opposed to being spread to the environment.”

    Still, the doctors stressed that there is limited evidence that wearing alternative coverings in public can prevent transmission of COVID-19.

    In the county next to me, residents were told to wear face masks/scarves whenever they go out in public – whether walking, to the market or the doctor, etc.

    Dana (4fb37f)

  171. Russ from Winterset:

    First let’s clear out some of the chaff.

    Col. Klink, he did not mention chloroquine phosphate. He said chloroquine.

    Yes, and they are the exact same thing. I get weary having to dig up these links every day, but here we go:

    CDC:

    Chloroquine (also known as chloroquine phosphate) is an antimalarial medicine.

    No, Trump did not say drink fish tank cleaner. Yes, God knows what the dosage was, and you take medications with a prescription, not just randomly because the ingredient appears on the label. I get all that. Your case is good enough; you don’t have to weaken it by saying something that is not true, namely that chloroquine and chloroquine phosphate are different. They are not. Look it up at Mayo, look it up anywhere you want, just don’t use as a source some Trump-supporting Web site that repeats it without a citation because they’re wrong. Now let’s hopefully not speak of that again and get to your real point.

    I’m going to disagree with you slightly in the case of the chloroquine phosphate lady, Pat.

    I don’t want to argue things on the scale of “Trump good, Never Trump bad” or vice versa, but I think looking at her behavior with politics in mind is reasonable. By her own words, she ingested a dangerous chemical that’s labeled as toxic because the president mentioned another chemical, the name of which is somewhat similar in his speech. Now, it becomes known that this woman was actively hostile to President Trump and donated money to groups working against him on the basis of his alleged hostility to science?

    Do you have to be a conspiracy nut to think “perhaps she’s not the sort of person who would accept PDJT’s recommendation so uncritically”? Now a big Trump fan doing this? Still dumb as hell, but there would be one reason to think “OK, that’s why she was receptive to this”.

    You’re a prosecutor, so I won’t insult your intelligence by telling you how things are done. You already know that the relevant DAs are looking into her internet search history and any recent changes to her husband’s insurance status.

    I don’t cotton to the “she killed him because she’s a LIBRUHL!” wackos, but if it turns out that she had some reasons other than wanting to prevent him from catching this bug to feed him a toxic chemical? I won’t be shocked. Given the track record of publicised “hate crimes” like Jussie Smollett and damn near all the campus diversity crimes out there? I think my scepticism is warranted.

    Can I absolutely say she didn’t try to murder her husband? No more than I can say that Melania didn’t try to murder Trump last night. I have no idea, but there is no evidence of it, and (in a great phrase I heard today) no evidence is no evidence.

    My question is: the lady said she heard of this compound from Trump. I’m inclined to credit her statement, because she’s a widow whose husband just died and I don’t think the biggest thing on her mind is scoring a cheap partisan point by lying about where she heard about it. Do you honestly think this poor widow is lying about that? Because of some donations? Can’t you give her the benefit of the doubt when her husband just died?

    Patterico (115b1f)

  172. You need to look around the internet more. There are people who would applaud the sun going nova it they could blame it on Trump.

    And there are people who would applaud the sun going nova if you told them Trump did it.

    Patterico (115b1f)

  173. 125.

    Smart fella, that Churchill.

    The Gallipoli dead might disagree:

    Churchill thought everybody else was as smart as him.

    I read that later the UK might file some kind of formal complaint against China.

    Sammy Finkelman (1a8726)

  174. The New York Times had a whole back story about this on Monday. (a week ago?)

    https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/03/22/world/coronavirus-spread.html

    No, it’s this story:

    https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/29/world/asia/coronavirus-china.html

    China Created a Fail-Safe System to Track Contagions. It Failed.

    After SARS, Chinese health officials built an infectious disease reporting system to evade political meddling. But when the coronavirus emerged, so did fears of upsetting Beijing.

    ….After doctors in Wuhan began treating clusters of patients stricken with a mysterious pneumonia in December, the reporting was supposed to have been automatic. Instead, hospitals deferred to local health officials who, over a political aversion to sharing bad news, withheld information about cases from the national reporting system — keeping Beijing in the dark and delaying the response.

    The central health authorities first learned about the outbreak not from the reporting system but after unknown whistle-blowers leaked two internal documents online.

    …Even after Beijing got involved, local officials set narrow criteria for confirming cases, leaving out information that could have provided clues that the virus was spreading among humans.

    Hospitals were ordered to count only patients with a known connection to the source of the outbreak, the seafood market. Doctors also had to have their cases confirmed by bureaucrats before they were reported to higher-ups.

    I know the last part about difficulty of getting cases confirmed is true, and it is well known.

    I don’t know if the story that this was kept hidden from Beijing is true. We don;’t know who was involved or what they were thinking. It’s a loony bin like somebody said.

    Sammy Finkelman (1a8726)

  175. Now, interviews with doctors, health experts and officials, leaked government documents, and investigations by the Chinese media reveal the depth of the government’s failings: how a system built to protect medical expertise and infection reports from political tampering succumbed to tampering.

    Others tried to fill the void of information when the early warning system failed. The medical community found other, informal ways to alert others, disclosing government directives and hospital reports on the internet. During a rare burst of relative transparency early in the epidemic, Chinese journalists did much to expose the problems, but censors closed that window…..

    ,,,In theory, doctors could have reported such cases directly, but Chinese hospitals also answer to Communist Party bureaucracies. Over time, hospitals often came to defer to local health authorities about reporting troublesome infections, apparently to avoid surprising and embarrassing local leaders.

    That deference may not have mattered much most of the time. Now it gave officials in Wuhan an opening to control and distort information about the virus.

    Local disease control offices in the city had counted 25 such cases by Dec. 30, said an official internal report that was leaked online last month by unknown whistle-blowers. The brief document was one of the first attempts by Wuhan to understand the extent of cases, and listed patients had fallen ill starting Dec. 12.

    “The local health administration clearly made a choice not to use the reporting system,” said Dali Yang, a professor of political science at the University of Chicago who studies policymaking in China. “It is clear they were trying to resolve the problem within the province.”

    Leaders in Wuhan seem to have assumed that the outbreak would peter out like bursts of avian flu infection — short-lived and localized — Shao Yiming, a virologist at the Center for Disease Control, said in an interview with Caixin, a Chinese magazine.

    Sammy Finkelman (1a8726)

  176. Patterico and Russ from Winterset:

    I also thought that “The Mystery Of The Arizona Fish Tank Cleaner” would make for Quincy ME episode (although not an Ellery Queen Mystery Magazine short story the plot having been done to death by more than a century’s worth of mystery writers) but I did not want to fuel the alt.right bonfire of crazy. If the authorities are really investigating this, the first thing they should look at is the husband’s medical history, what medications he was on, what precautions he was supposed to take (for example, grapefruit juice could kill a person on neuroleptics the exact same way as chloroquine), and whether the wife knew about them.

    nk (1d9030)

  177. https://twitter.com/tomselliott/status/1245453971239682048

    Jake Tapper looked absolutely heartbroken…

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  178. And one more thing, if I may. The chloroquine that the unjustly-denied Nobel laureate Mr. President Drumpfelschnitzel touted is chloroquine phosphate same as in the fish tank cleaner. Anyone who argues that it is not should immediately be labeled an “ignorant Trump humper of dubious masculinity and unsanitary sexual habits”, and everything he says should be ignored.

    nk (1d9030)

  179. Mr M wrote:

    No, no sane person wants 200,000 people to die so we can get rid of Trump.

    No, but since 200,000 people ARE going to die, they’ll have no problem bashing him with it.

    Let’s tell the truth here: by the definition in the quoted sentence, there are a whole lot of insane people in this country.

    The Dana in Kentucky (fd0d45)

  180. Poor Trump.

    Leviticus (28a6ca)

  181. Mr Finkelman wrote:

    I read that later the UK might file some kind of formal complaint against China.

    Oh, yeah, that’s going to really teach ’em!

    The Dana in Kentucky (fd0d45)

  182. “Bashing him” with it? Trump, Pence, the whole Cabinet, and all the Representatives and Senators who voted against impeachment and removal, should be tried for mass murder and hanged.

    nk (1d9030)

  183. Our esteemed host wrote:

    You need to look around the internet more. There are people who would applaud the sun going nova it they could blame it on Trump.

    And there are people who would applaud the sun going nova if you told them Trump did it.

    Well, not for long.

    If the sun went nova, we wouldn’t know about it for eight minutes, and it would be only a few more minutes before we were all dead. But, look on the bright side: it would also wipe out Coronavirus!

    The Dana in Kentucky (fd0d45)

  184. @172. In the county next to me, residents were told to wear face masks/scarves whenever they go out in public – whether walking, to the market or the doctor, etc.

    Maybe they’re just ugly. 😉

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  185. 168. First resort of fascists, to blame vulnerable populations in a time of crisis.

    Redemption?– CornyVee kills fascists, too.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  186. 183, they’re better off retaking Hong Kong by force.

    urbanleftbehind (f495e3)

  187. @103. His comments are understandable, but they’re not agreeable.

    No. They’re not understandable at all. Anymore than Palin’s ‘death panels’ whines made sense. Maybe slurred from a bar stooled Hannity, stone drunk at 2 AM at last call, but not a public office holder with the responsibility of other people’s lives. Brings to mind the ol’punchline:

    “… The American stood up, straightened his tie, shouted, “Remember The Alamo!” picked up the Mexican and threw him out of the plane.”

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  188. I dont get it…certainly you would spare San Diego County but Texas is expandable with strings attached?

    urbanleftbehind (f495e3)

  189. Trump, Pence, the whole Cabinet, and all the Representatives and Senators who voted against impeachment and removal, should be tried for mass murder and hanged.

    As I said, the lunatics will use whatever facts they have or can make up to come to the conclusion they want. On both sides.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  190. Trump, Pence, the whole Cabinet, and all the Representatives and Senators who voted against impeachment and removal, should be tried for mass murder and hanged.

    Or maybe nk is trying to out-reprehensible everyone.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  191. “Bashing him” with it? Trump, Pence, the whole Cabinet, and all the Representatives and Senators who voted against impeachment and removal, should be tried for mass murder and hanged.

    nk (1d9030) — 4/1/2020 @ 6:53 pm

    Do you remember not too long ago when you mentioned you’d try to regain from this type of remark?

    NJRob (4f16bf)

  192. Oh, yeah, that’s going to really teach ’em!

    Telling them that the principal represented by $3 trillion in bonds they hold is now confiscated as damages may turn the trick. May start a war, too, but it WILL get their attention.

    Assuming that this virus release wasn’t intentional and we’re at war already.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  193. “Out-reprehensibling” was necessary in a field of 16, as Sammy might remind us.

    urbanleftbehind (f495e3)

  194. Refrain *

    NJRob (4f16bf)

  195. (in a great phrase I heard today) no evidence is no evidence

    Given your line of work, I imagine this was a startling revelation.

    Dave (1bb933)

  196. Anti-death penalty, eh? A lot of people are these days.

    nk (1d9030)

  197. mr nk tries harder than anyone to love our president aka donald trump

    i doubt any of us can imagine how hard

    his is the searing white hot anger of true love denied

    Dave (1bb933)

  198. Mr. Dave, you posted a State Department document that showed that Trump was sending our reserves of medical supplies and equipment to China, to help them out with the coronavirus, while saying it was a hoax over here. How many American lives did that knowing and intentional lie and the accompanying inaction cost? You don’t know? Neither do I. We’ll let the juries decide.

    nk (1d9030)

  199. https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1FAIpQLScils4AHxmID_AnhPJXXaf9Jm_7_153aKCF4IrAb2SBKPsDEQ/viewform

    Off topic, but another reason to hate leftist administrations that want to stick it to people they think are patriotic and conservative.

    She was called up by the National Guard to serve during this crisis and is a student at UVA School of Law. She says she will still perform her studies and do what is necessary to complete the class. They say she must withdraw because she is being paid for a full time job.

    They don’t deserve the soil where the school resides.

    NJRob (4f16bf)

  200. My question is: the lady said she heard of this compound from Trump. I’m inclined to credit her statement, because she’s a widow whose husband just died and I don’t think the biggest thing on her mind is scoring a cheap partisan point by lying about where she heard about it.

    She also took the chloroquine and ended up critically ill with gastrointestinal and cardiac problems (things the prescribed version of the drug can also cause). Taking the compound could have been part of a plan to kill her husband but she took a big chance with her own life. It seems more likely they believed it would help them avoid getting coronavirus.

    Apparently they aren’t the only people who thought this:

    The product in their possession was in powder form inside a 2.2-lb. container and labeled “for Ornamental Fish Use Only”. CDC is also aware of unconfirmed media reports that these commercially available aquarium-use chemicals may be out of stock due to potential increased demand by the public.

    DRJ (15874d)

  201. One more warning from my CDC link:

    Chloroquine phosphate has a narrow therapeutic index—it can be toxic at levels not much higher than those used for treatment—which raises the risk of inadvertent overdose.

    DRJ (15874d)

  202. NJRob, at least when i was a law student, the no full time work rule was a requirement for the cechool to maintain accreditation.

    aphrael (7962af)

  203. The author of the chloroquine study that won President Trump the Nobel Prize in Medicine turns out to have a long history of faking data, and was banned from publishing in the American Society for Microbiology journal for a year:

    Chloroquine genius Didier Raoult to save the world from COVID-19

    That article, and this one:

    Are hydroxychloroquine and azithromycin an effective treatment for COVID-19?

    explain in detail how data was selectively omitted or invented in the Chloroquine paper, and how numerous standard research methodologies were flouted. The article was peer reviewed and published by a journal that the main author essentially controls.

    Note these are medical research blogs, not Gateway Pundit or the equivalent…

    Dave (1bb933)

  204. Yes, I suspected that was the case. He pre-selected his sample, then continued by removing subjects from the study that did not show the results he wanted, and I even wonder whether some of his subjects even existed.

    nk (1d9030)

  205. NJRob, at least when i was a law student, the no full time work rule was a requirement for the cechool to maintain accreditation.

    aphrael (7962af) — 4/1/2020 @ 9:39 pm

    Except when they work for the school of course. Being called up isn’t voluntary and since they’ve moved to online classes, these aren’t ordinary times.

    NJRob (4d595c)

  206. It looks like the ABA dropped the 20-hour limit a few years ago.

    Schools that enforced the policy in order to comply with the ABA may not have changed their internal rules, though.

    Dave (1bb933)

  207. From the front lines here in NY/NJ:

    Hundreds of doctors and nurses are taking hydroxychloroquine along with azithromycin and zinc as a prophylaxis if they develop any symptoms of COVID-19.

    A close friend – a physician – who maintains his practice and also has managed clinical trials of an array of pharmaceuticals for the past 30 years for companies such as Pfizer, Novartis, and NVE, three days ago diagnosed my son (who works for one of the larger hospital systems in northern NJ) with coronavirus and had him tested. After a positive result, he prescribed the aforementioned regimen of drugs. In addition, he recommends a daily dose of 1 – 1.5 g of vitamin C. This regimen lasts over 5 days, with the exception of the vitamin C and zinc which should be started by everyone everywhere and continued after the chloroquine and Zpack.

    This physician has managed clinical trials of 100s of drugs, and in his practice has prescribed hydroxychloroquine often. He stressed to me its safety when we discussed my son’s case. It’s been used since 1945 and the side effects are well known – namely the increased risk to the retina and ventricular arrhythmias, both after prolonged use. Patients of his with lupus are told to regularly see both a retinologist and a cardiologist to mitigate these conditions.

    He said since the side effects are only seen after extended use, the incidence after 5 days of use are so low as to be statistically null, and are far outweighed from the benefit of avoiding a ventilator. Almost all doctors believe that using this regimen of drugs in the early phases of infection will produce far better results than compassionate use near the end-stage when the disease has done maximum damage.

    He raised an important point – double-blind clinical trials with control groups are absolutely necessary when the placebo effect comes into play. Think opioids. One painkiller trial, tested for use with bone marrow cancer patients (who experience excruciating pain), reported more than a 50% reduction in pain (as reported by the patient) in the group taking the placebo! But in studies where pain is not as much an issue, the placebo effect is weighted a lot less, and in the case of off-label use of a drug that’s been around for 70 years with well-known side-effects and ways to mitigate them, it’s not enough to stop its use when there really are no viable alternatives.

    Would he like to see clinical trials? Of course. But as we all know, it’s cruel to have a placebo group in our race to find effective treatments and mitigation for a virus that’s kicking our a$$.

    I put a lot of stock in the opinions of the doctors using this regimen – they’re highly educated and willing to take the “chance” themselves. Do they believe it’s the cure we’re looking for? Not necessarily, but they feel the anecdotal evidence of promising results, dating back to 2002 with SARS, along with no other viable treatment available, makes the decision to use hydroxychloroquine a no-brainer.

    By the way, some doctors in NYC are getting good results early in treatment with mega-doses of vitamin C. 3g if admitted to the hospital, 5g if on a ventilator.

    This is battlefield medicine reminiscent of MASH units during the Korean war, and their bravery and commitment to helping these patients blows my mind.

    Mo Hawk (6c01b3)

  208. well mr nk i think the fact that were going to be paying 99 cents a gallon for gas has to be considered a mitigating factor

    Dave (1bb933)

  209. Some have said this fish tank cleaner is the same chemical as the treatment, just a lower grade and harder to dose properly. Some have said it’s a completely unrelated, different treatment.

    Anyone know one way or the other?

    DRJ’s point that it’s been hoarded off the shelves is a scary thought.

    Dustin (928d9a)

  210. As far as I can tell, it’s the same chemical.

    The recommended amount used for cleaning fish tanks appears to be 40 mg per gallon, which is quite small compared to the 500-1000 mg doses that I’ve seen discussed for the germ.

    Dave (1bb933)

  211. Thanks, Mo Hawk. The medical professionals are showing what Americans are all about.

    mg (8cbc69)

  212. The NewYork Unions and Trumka are threatening to shut down Amazon, because Amazon fired a moron who tested positive for the china flu was told to quarantine, but showed up to strike and possibly infect others. So the democrats will try and starve people. Actually I beg these pricks to set foot on my lawn.

    mg (8cbc69)

  213. Construction unions in Ma.are trying to get all construction stopped. And the schiff hole govna charlie brown will probably concede to these pos. Locked and loaded when I go to work finishing off a friends basement. Bring it on you union thugs. We independent nail pounding contractors will kick your broom sweeping azzes.

    mg (8cbc69)

  214. Our Windy City knife collector wrote:

    Anti-death penalty, eh? A lot of people are these days.

    One of us was opposed to capital punishment before being opposed to capital punishment was cool.

    The Dana in Kentucky (fd0d45)

  215. One of us was opposed to capital punishment before being opposed to capital punishment was cool.

    It never has been cool. It’s cool like veganism is cool…

    Ragspierre (d9bec9)

  216. NJRob, you have to know the history of law schools and ABA accreditation. In five words: They are a corrupt racket.

    In more words: For most of America’s history, few lawyers trained in law schools. Mostly, they clerked (apprenticed) in a law office and then they sat for the bar before an examining judge or committee of judges who licensed them to practice and hold themselves out as lawyers. A very eminent lawyer like that was U.S. Supreme Court Justice Robert H. Jackson (1941-1954), and another was Erle Stanley Gardner, the creator of Perry Mason, who might not have even finished high school.

    However, this path led to all kinds of riffraff parvenus — Italians, Greeks, Irish, blacks, and (gasp!) Jews, you know the kind) — entering the legal profession. So the white bread and boiled cod legal establishment, in concert with the college racket, established the “accredited” law school requirement in most states (45 I think now) to make sure, as much as possible, that the right kind of people, i.e. the people whose parents could afford to send them to law school, became lawyers, and not the ones who needed to work their way through.

    I could go on and on, but I think you get the picture.

    nk (1d9030)

  217. Too bad there is not a pill for TDS.

    TDS? Tatiana Drumpfelschnitzel Syndrome? Is that the Russian name for President Trump’s Coronavirus?

    nk (1d9030)

  218. Comparing the number of deaths is about perspective.

    For example, if 50% of gun owners shot up schools I would be more inclined to go door to door looking for guns.

    BillPasadena (e482e2)

  219. Mr Pasadena wrote:

    For example, if 50% of gun owners shot up schools I would be more inclined to go door to door looking for guns.

    To do what, exactly? Are you going to declare all gun owners guilty, because a large number of other gun owners committed a crime?

    The Dana in Kentucky (fd0d45)

  220. “I am calling on the administration to put in charge of both production and distribution of materials a military man as czar under the [Defense Production Act],” Schumer said Thursday on MSNBC’s Morning Joe. “We need someone unpolitical to produce the materials more quickly…and to distribute them to the places that are most needed — to not have my governor have to call up California and compete with other states.”

    But less than an hour later, Trump shot back in a tweet, arguing that the administration already has “a military man in charge of distributing goods, a very talented Admiral,” an apparent reference to Admiral Brett Giroir, who the administration put in place at the Department of Health and Human Services to coordinate testing efforts among public health agencies.

    “New York has gotten far more than any other state, including hospitals and hospital ship, but not matter what, always complaining,” Trump tweeted. “Unlike other states, New York unfortunately got off to a late start. You should have pushed harder. Stop complaining & find out where all of these supplies are going. Cuomo working hard!”

    The very talented Admiral, a pediatrician. Also not in charge of logistics.

    But why would believe Trump knows what the administration roles are, and who fills them? That’s why he’s now asking Shumer to take over some of his responsibilities apparently.

    Trump, the buck always stops over there, with that other guy. Of course, what buck and why would it stop?

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827)

  221. From Trump

    Just spoke to my friend MBS (Crown Prince) of Saudi Arabia, who spoke with President Putin of Russia, & I expect & hope that they will be cutting back approximately 10 Million Barrels, and maybe substantially more which, if it happens, will be GREAT for the oil & gas industry!

    He didn’t care about loss of human life until he realized it would damage his brand and was actively selling that “the cure can’t be worse then the disease” in the context of hundreds of thousands to millions of people dying.

    Now he’s bragging that he’s going to raise fuel costs in the middle of a Pandemic, helping Russia, Saudi Arabia, and the oil industry at the expense of consumers.

    Where’s RCocean to tell me about how ‘corporate GOP’ doesn’t care about regular American’s the wya Trump does?

    Trump is terrible at his job.

    Time123 (36651d)

  222. would we

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827)

  223. Also, the admiral, is not in the military, he’s in the United States Public Health Service Commissioned Corps, same as the surgeon general. The uniform must have thrown Trump, also Trump must have been one of those kids who thought being dumb was cool, he’s the coolest.

    Trump is an idiot.

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827)

  224. He needs the oilfield states in November, Time123. DRJ who comes from oil country has described how the oil market at times devastates the local economies as much as the coronavirus is generally doing now.

    nk (1d9030)

  225. Perhaps the police should look into Felonia von Fishtank’s troubled past…

    https://www.americanthinker.com/blog/2020/04/the_mysterious_case_of_the_people_who_ate_fish_tank_cleaner.html

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  226. 127. DCSCA (797bc0) — 4/1/2020 @ 3:36 pm

    @122. You just stay inside, Sammy, get deli deliveries if you can– go into blizzard mode, cook up what you’ve got in the freezer, don’t let the ambulance sirens drive you crazy– or spring weather tempt you to spend time outside. Heard they’ve closed the playgrounds today there, too.

    No deli delivery but I got a delivery Sunday of cleanig and other supplies, home cooked food, soda, pineapple juice, apple sauce, some Passover food and groceries from my brother through his a daughter’s husband and will get another.

    I don’t hear any ambulance sirens – don’t know what places hear them. New ambulance rule – if you can’t stabilize heart attack patients don’t take him to a hospital.

    My problem is not food it’s appetite still.

    Weather is cold 40s. We had a warm winter and not we are having a cold spring, Didn’t know greenhouse gases worked that fast if it is that eliminating CO2 and H2O emissions cooled the planet, It needs to be a bit warmer. Summer will be OK but what if we have a cold fall and winter?

    They closed the playgrounds but not the parks. Haven’t gone outside to see what playground/park looks like.

    Maybe I should stay inside into May.

    Sammy Finkelman (1a8726)

  227. Time123 (36651d) — 4/2/2020 @ 7:51 am

    He didn’t care about loss of human life until he realized it would damage his brand and was actively selling that “the cure can’t be worse then the disease” in the context of hundreds of thousands to millions of people dying.

    Trump had stoppped saying a cold but he was saying flu as late as Friday. Then on Tuesday he went
    to:

    “It’s not the flu. It’s vicious.” (NYT)

    Still saying (very very painful) two weeks. (till light at the end of the tunnel)

    He keeps congradulting himself on stopping Jan 30 travelers who passed through China That was largely legalistic

    Sammy Finkelman (1a8726)

  228. What a loser.

    Massive amounts of medical supplies, even hospitals and medical centers, are being delivered directly to states and hospitals by the Federal Government. Some have insatiable appetites & are never satisfied (politics?). Remember, we are a backup for them. The complainers should…

    — Donald J. Trump (@realDonaldTrump) April 2, 2020
    ….have been stocked up and ready long before this crisis hit. Other states are thrilled with the job we have done. Sending many Ventilators today, with thousands being built. 51 large cargo planes coming in with medical supplies. Prefer sending directly to hospitals.

    — Donald J. Trump (@realDonaldTrump) April 2, 2020

    Colonel Klink (Red) (9878f6)

  229. Pat, just got back online to see your response to me. Thank you.

    Did fishtank lady kill her husband? Yes. In the technical sense, she obtained a chemical, convinced her husband to take it, and he died from taking it. That’s her version of what happened, undisputable.

    Now for the big question. Mens Rea? (Yes I know just enough law to be dangerous) Did she intend to kill him? You have to start out assuming it was not intentional. That’s the rule. But there are details to the story that raise red flags. Her admitted mental health issues. Her consideration of divorcing her husband in 2012. Her version of events that claim that she inferred medical advice from a man she simultaneously denounced as an anti-science idiot.

    I don’t think anyone needs to villify her as a murderess….until and unless facts come out that support that. I am perfectly willing to sit tight and let the appropriate authorities look through her internet search history and other relevant considerations.

    As far as the proposition that she did this because of her hatred of Trump? Pretty far out there. Occam’s Razor would point to her making a bonehead move and then grasping at straws to blame Trump for her stupidity. I would normally be all for letting her mourn her husband in peace; however, since she’s out there accusing the President of murdering her husband, I have no problem with pushing back by reminding her that she fed her husband a chemical bought at a pet store at an unknown dosage, and that chemical was labeled as toxic. Exactly what did she think was going to happen?

    As far as the chemical being identical to the drug goes? Doesn’t matter. I will concede that the names can be interchangeable, since organic chemistry was never my strong point. But that doesn’t matter. The drug chloroquine is labeled for human consumption. The chemical chloroquine is used for cleaning fish tanks and labeled as toxic. Saying that Trump referencing using the drug under a doctor’s care is the same as buying a chemical labeled as poison and feeding it to your husband is one hell of a stretch. Plus, labeling is important. The chemical is labeled as toxic. This is clear. That alone should have caused her to do further research and find out that using this as a drug requires close attention to dosages. Also a manufacturer that packages this for a non-theraputic use is not required to meet food & drug safety standards. If you want to use it as a drug, you should get it from a source that certifies it as safe.

    Once again, thanks for the conversation.

    Russ from Winterset (4fe966)

  230. Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

    Your American Stinker reference is bogus as hell. Please, don’t taint your own creds with crap like that!

    Ragspierre (d9bec9)

  231. Sammy, I have enjoyed reading your comments for years now. Take care of yourself and be well.

    Russ from Winterset (4fe966)

  232. Kentucky Blowhard
    He thinks he’s scoring
    Most find him boring

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  233. 234… most of what Russ just wrote about is in that, raggedy.

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  234. Alt.right bonfires of crazy, for no other reason than to defend a stupid remark by Bonespur Drumpfelschnitzel Skedaddle. Please let’s not throw more fuel on them, here. If there’s anything there, the Arizona authorities, who are themselves by and large Trump humpers of dubious masculinity and unsanitary sexual habits, will ferret it out.

    nk (1d9030)

  235. Ragspierre (btw, you are the fellow who used to comment at LI, right? I never registered to comment there but I have lurked from damn near day one. If that was you, I miss your comments…but understand why you might of said eff this and removed yourself), I agree that some of the conclusions about the fishtank lady are overblown, but there’s nothing wrong with seeing discrepancies in her actions and statements and considering her self-described mental issues when you look at what she did and why.

    Russ from Winterset (4fe966)

  236. Da Bearz… Da Bullz… Ditka…

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  237. An Arizona man is died of a heart attack and his wife was hospitalized after the couple ingested a type of chloroquine, a chemical that has been hailed recently by President Trump as a possible “game changer” in the fight against novel coronavirus. https://t.co/ItBLKqac8B
    — NPR (@NPR) March 24, 2020

    Even as that lie was racing around the world, the truth was struggling to get out. In this case, the truth was that the couple hadn’t taken chloroquine at all. Instead, they’d ingested a fish tank cleaner that had “chloroquine phosphate,” a deadly chemical.

    Even though a fish tank cleaner has nothing to do with a long recognized and legal anti-malarial drug, the media and the woman herself pushed the anti-Trump narrative. Indeed, the woman explicitly condemned Trump: “Don’t believe anything that the President says and his people.”

    My moniker here is “Ragspierre”. I won’t call you names if you respect me.

    Every bit of that Stinker piece is plowed ground here. It’s bogus, and the author is a wannabe with her head WAAAAAYYYY up T-rump’s nithers.

    Here’s an excellent rule of thumb when navigating stories that are hostile to President Trump: assume that everything you hear is a lie, whether it’s from the media or from the anti-Trump source about which the media is reporting. Also, you can learn a lot about human nature and sneaky crimes by reading murder mysteries. That’s her coda, poor idiot…

    Ragspierre (d9bec9)

  238. nk, stupid remark?

    He simply stated that doctors were looking into using an existing drug for a new use: potentially preventing and treating the symptoms of the Wuhan virus.

    Where’s the stupidity in that?

    Russ from Winterset (4fe966)

  239. Russ from Winterset (4fe966)

    Yep. Guilty as charged.

    I see nothing wrong with looking at anything, and am known for advocating looking under the hood at claims from friend and foe alike.

    But, however, and OTOH, the American Stinker piece referenced above repeats a lode of crap that this blog has examined ad nauseam, and we know it is false.

    Ragspierre (d9bec9)

  240. Rags, I like to consider myself a fair man. No matter how stupid someone is, was or may be in the future, if they say something that is true their taint does not diminish that truth. Which is why I distinguish between facts and conclusions. Facts say that her version of what happened may not be totally accurate. Those facts don’t prove what happened, but they do justify skepticism.

    I understand that you can turn it around and say facts support your position. I guess that’s why it’s called discussing, not agreeing.

    Russ from Winterset (4fe966)

  241. NT Op ed – they keep on ignoring degree of exposure, I know they can’t measure it but they are not trying even to factor it into projections.

    https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/01/opinion/coronavirus-viral-dose.html

    The importance of viral dose is being overlooked in discussions of the coronavirus. As with any other poison, viruses are usually more dangerous in larger amounts. Small initial exposures tend to lead to mild or asymptomatic infections, while larger doses can be lethal.

    From a policy perspective, we need to consider that not all exposures to the coronavirus may be the same. Stepping into an office building that once had someone with the coronavirus in it is not as dangerous as sitting next to that infected person for an hourlong train commute.

    This may seem obvious, but many people are not making this distinction. We need to focus more on preventing high-dose infection.

    Both small and large amounts of virus can replicate within our cells and cause severe disease in vulnerable individuals such as the immunocompromised. In healthy people, however, immune systems respond as soon as they sense a virus growing inside. Recovery depends on which wins the race: viral spread or immune activation.

    Virus experts know that viral dose affects illness severity. In the lab, mice receiving a low dose of virus clear it and recover, while the same virus at a higher dose kills them. Dose sensitivity has been observed for every common acute viral infection that has been studied in lab animals, including coronaviruses.

    ….It would be unethical to experimentally manipulate viral dose in humans for a pathogen as serious as the coronavirus, but there is evidence that dose also matters for the human coronavirus. During the 2003 SARS coronavirus outbreak in Hong Kong, for instance, one patient infected many others living in the same complex of apartment buildings, resulting in 19 dead. The spread of infection is thought to have been caused by airborne viral particles that were blown throughout the complex from the initial patient’s apartment unit. As a result of greater viral exposure, neighbors who lived in the same building were not only more frequently infected but also more likely to die. By contrast, more distant neighbors, even when infected, suffered less.

    [Note: this also destroys the six foot distance rule – SF]

    Low-dose infections can even engender immunity, protecting against high-dose exposures in the future. Before the invention of vaccines, doctors often intentionally infected healthy individuals with fluid from smallpox pustules. The resulting low-dose infections were unpleasant but generally survivable, and they prevented worse incidents of disease when those individuals were later exposed to smallpox in uncontrolled amounts.

    Despite the evidence for the importance of viral dose, many of the epidemiological models being used to inform policy during this pandemic ignore it. This is a mistake.

    The medical establishment is bureaucratic – they should not be treated as the voice of truth, There’s quite a number of obvious stupid things that are said including the limitation to one time use of masks (as if they can’t be doused in detergent) the blaming on hand contamination, and of course, the 6 foot distance rule (but extent if exposure matters.)

    Sammy Finkelman (1a8726)

  242. That’s why I miss reading you over at LI. I think Professor Jacobsen does a great job over there, and I thought your comments on issues were always on point,even when I didn’t agree with your conclusions.

    Russ from Winterset (4fe966)

  243. Russ, what Duh Donald said went FAR beyond a mere mention of a drug (which I would not have done in the context).

    It sounded like an endorsement…”game changer”. It was beyond stupid and into irresponsible.

    Ragspierre (d9bec9)

  244. Sammy, when I was a young pup, I remember reading about an English doctor who noticed that milkmaids who had been exposed to a similar disease (cowpox) almost never contracted smallpox. His intuition that intentionally infecting people with a tamer version of a deadly virus might save lives built some of the foundations of modern medicine.

    Makes me feel that I didn’t waste ALL my time back in those days.

    Russ from Winterset (4fe966)

  245. I’m not saying I (or anyone I’ve read) knows what the lady did or why.

    What we can say with certainty is that a substance is what it chemically IS. Again, we’ve been around this barn enough to have some issues considered settled, though some will raise them again.

    Ragspierre (d9bec9)

  246. Ok, Russ.

    Actually*, I kind of debated adding “stupid” to “remark” myself, because I didn’t want to distract from my main point — “let’s not aid in the online lynching of the lady, let the authorities handle it”.

    *Yes, I know I say “actually” a lot. It’s actually one of my tells.

    nk (1d9030)

  247. I disagree, Rags. It is a potential game changer. Nothing wrong with his noticing this fact. It probably sounded like an endorsement because, well, who wouldn’t endorse a treatment that works?

    Russ from Winterset (4fe966)

  248. Thanks for the reminder on the chloro-dunnnit…its a Law and Order marathon on the Sundance channel every Thursday. Clink Clink. Lord knows who would be the actors had the seminal series lasted beyond 2010 until now…I’d settle for DJT, on loan from Apprentice, merely playing a snake-oil salesman.

    urbanleftbehind (3155e2)

  249. No worries nk. I may not be a “regular” here like Norm & Cliff, but I remember enough about your presentation. Some of our differences are elemental, some are semantics.

    I get where you are coming from.

    Russ from Winterset (4fe966)

  250. It probably sounded like an endorsement because, well, who wouldn’t endorse a treatment that works?

    I wouldn’t, and for the obvious reason that I COULD NOT KNOW THAT. Neither could T-rump. NOOOOOOOBody knows IF it works. There are some who believe it works, on blind faith, but the science isn’t in. A POTUS should know to STFU on certain matters. Hell, a grammar school teacher would be grossly irresponsible to blather about a “game changer”.

    Ragspierre (d9bec9)

  251. Rags, my problem is that when you label an item as safe for consumption, it is different than labeling it as poison. Even when it is the same substance. If someone is too goddamn stupid to pay attention to a POISON label, how can you hope to get through their thick-assed skulls with a nuanced statement like “yes, a medical version of this chemical is used to treat some diseases, but you need to be very careful with dosages and monitor your health while taking the appropriate dose”?

    Even though the drug chloroquine is not much more expensive than the chemical chloroquine, the drug label gives it something that the chemical label does not: assurance that using this version of it is safer than practicing MacGyver medicine.

    Russ from Winterset (4fe966)

  252. 222. If 50% of gun owners shot up schools, you’d have to repeal the 2nd amendment and then go looking door-to-door for guns. Your fear of what will happen or has happened is no more a valid reason to trample on people’s rights than your fear of what could happen.

    Gryph (08c844)

  253. He said it MIGHT be a game changer. That’s just making an observation.

    If I say “radiation therapy seems to have been a game changer in the fight against cancer”, does that mean I’m responsible for some idiot sneaking into Reactor #4 at Chernobyl and rubbing up against “the elephant’s foot” for an hour?

    Russ from Winterset (4fe966)

  254. I can tell you a story about coronovirus treatment in Dallas Texas. A friend’s ex-wife (20 year plus divorced) remarrried and now lives in Dallas. She wasn’t feeling well, don’t know exact details. Went for a test., Results did not come in but in the meantime she was prescribed hydroxychloroquine or whatever it is. So some doctors are making good decisions.

    I notice some atempts in media to pooh pooh this. They should stop.

    It works better as a preventative than a cure.

    When someone gets worse crash from difficultly breathing can be fast. You read about that.

    Sammy Finkelman (1a8726)

  255. “He simply stated that doctors were looking into using an existing drug for a new use: potentially preventing and treating the symptoms of the Wuhan virus.”

    one of the biggest game changers in the history of medicine

    https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1241367239900778501

    Davethulhu (3857ea)

  256. Davethulhu

    Shhh!!!
    You have to replace the words he said with other words that he should have said, because how could he be perfect, 10 out of 10, if the words were wrong, I mean you heard the words wrong. You have TDS ears, MAGA ears are fit out with babel fish , that’s why you can’t be trusted to understand his greatness.

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827)

  257. Sammy, as I understand it, chloroquine and the “z-pack” antibiotic help patients progress through the infectious stage of the disease faster. Instead of shedding virus for 10 to 14 days, it cuts down the period you are infectious to others to maybe 6 or 7 days. Even if it doesn’t cure the disease itself, this would help rotate patients through isolation faster and help free up critical beds.

    It might also help kill the virus, but that is still up in the air. I would be very nervous about using it as a preventative without studies, but I think right now we’re in an any port in a storm situation, so why not try it?

    So by my count, this therapy has 3 potential benefits. Prevent catching Wuhanvirus (unproven), help cure wuhanvirus (appears to be helpful but unproven), and reduce the isolation time of infected patients (anecdotal so far, but observed), freeing up resources.

    Russ from Winterset (4fe966)

  258. Consensus so far is that going on the vent is the equivalent to putting on a red Star Trek uniform. Cuomo mentioned the other day that 80% of vent users wind up dead. I saw a report last week from an ER doc in Nawlins’ that about 84% of vent patients die.

    So I’m wondering: is getting more ventilators into service the way we want to go, or do we want to focus on finding a way to AVOID using vents by short circuiting the progression of the disease?

    The obvious answer would be “why not get both”?

    Russ from Winterset (4fe966)

  259. 248. Russ from Winterset (4fe966) — 4/2/2020 @ 9:46 am

    Sammy, when I was a young pup, I remember reading about an English doctor who noticed that milkmaids who had been exposed to a similar disease (cowpox) almost never contracted smallpox. His intuition that intentionally infecting people with a tamer version of a deadly virus might save lives built some of the foundations of modern medicine.

    Dr. Edward Jenner, in 1796. This became very very popular.

    Before that there were people who infected (mostly) children with real smallpox. I think this happened to George Washington. It had a fatality rate (of the variolation it is called now it was called inoculation then) of something around 1%.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Variolation

    … In 18th-century medical terminology, inoculation refers to smallpox inoculation. Confusion is caused by writers who interchange variolation and vaccination through either mistranslation or misinterpretation.

    The term variolation refers solely to inoculation with smallpox virus and is not interchangeable with vaccination. The latter term [comes from word for cow -SF] was first used in 1800 soon after Edward Jenner introduced smallpox vaccine derived from cowpox, an animal disease distinct from smallpox. The term variolation was then used from the 19th century to avoid confusion with vaccination. Most modern writers tend to refer to smallpox inoculation as variolation throughout without regard for chronology, as is used here. Further confusion was caused when, in 1891, Louis Pasteur honoured Jenner by widening the terms vaccine/vaccination to refer to the artificial induction of immunity against any infectious disease. Inoculation is used synonymously with injection in connection with the use of vaccines or other biopharmaceuticals, but has other meanings in e.g. laboratory work.

    Now nobody is going to try to get a delibeately mild case of Covid-19, but this may happen anyway. We can soon get antibody tests to see if someone now has immunity. Amount if circulating antibodies will decline but immune response should be maintained for longer.

    More:

    . In 1775, George Washington ordered that the Continental Army be variolated. By the end of the American Revolutionary War, variolation had gained widespread acceptance in the larger cities and towns of the United States.[2]:47

    t sometimes failed or appeared to fail and coul lead to secondary cass of real smallpox.

    The use of variolation soon began to decline as the smallpox vaccine became widely used and its benefits appreciated. Various countries made variolation illegal, starting with Russia in 1805.[8]:246

    Variolation served as a natural precursor to the discovery of vaccination. The major differences between the two were that in vaccination, material from cowpox, an animal disease, was used, but particularly that it was safe to those vaccinated and was not transmitted to their contacts. Vaccination offered the public a less-harmful method of preventing smallpox.

    Sammy Finkelman (1a8726)

  260. 262. As an aside: the word “vaccine” comes from the latin term for Cowpox, “variola vaccinae.”

    Gryph (08c844)

  261. 260. Russ from Winterset (4fe966) — 4/2/2020 @ 10:21 am

    Sammy, as I understand it, chloroquine and the “z-pack” antibiotic help patients progress through the infectious stage of the disease faster. Instead of shedding virus for 10 to 14 days, it cuts down the period you are infectious to others to maybe 6 or 7 days. Even if it doesn’t cure the disease itself, this would help rotate patients through isolation faster and help free up critical beds.

    It seems like what it does is prevent new cells from being infected maybe by changing the pH of the blood.

    Haven’t read much about that lately. Seems they don’t like to go into the possible mechanism.

    It is a somewhat weak treatment but may be lifesaving. If nobody with lupus gets this, that proves it works as a preventative. It doesn’t or shoudn’t be expected to give or build immunity. Someone already infected may get it anyway if they survive.

    There are other things that help too. Maybe even Kaletra. It seems to have been ruled out on the basis of a Chinese study but the control group got chloroquine or the other. It worked outside of China. So that should be re-examined.

    The antibiotic obviously prevents a secondary bacterial infection and is obviously a good thing to do in a pneumonia flu like situation.

    It might also help kill the virus, but that is still up in the air. I would be very nervous about using it as a preventative without studies, but I think right now we’re in an any port in a storm situation, so why not try it?

    It may kill loose virus particles outside cells. You have to act without studies anyway. And there’s no real study that justifies the washing the masks, the social distancing either.

    So by my count, this therapy has 3 potential benefits. Prevent catching Wuhanvirus (unproven), help cure wuhanvirus (appears to be helpful but unproven), and reduce the isolation time of infected patients (anecdotal so far, but observed), freeing up resources.

    If it does one it probably does the others in one way or another.

    It doesn’t cure but helps body resolve it faster by preventing infections of new cells.

    Sammy Finkelman (1a8726)

  262. China is still lying even if some of the lying started with local despots.

    When a story about a classified briefing broke in Bloomberg they added to their case total people who tested positive but had no symptoms (if I read that right)

    https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2020/04/u-s-intel-china-covered-up-extent-of-coronavirus-outbreak.html

    Despite being home to the outbreak, which originated in Wuhan in late December, China has reported only 82,361 cases of COVID-19 and 3,316 resulting deaths, according to the Johns Hopkins University Coronavirus Resource Center.

    The accuracy of China’s official counts relating to the coronavirus have frequently been called into question, even by residents of Wuhan. The official death toll in Wuhan, which currently stands at 2,531, “can’t be right,” a Wuhan resident told Radio Free Asia this week. “The incinerators have been working around the clock, so how can so few people have died?” Other reports have noted that thousands of urns have been delivered to Wuhan in recent days, making the official death toll hard to believe.

    China may have underestimated total number of deaths by a factor or 20. You know it claims to have wiped it out inside China..

    And yet China reported zero new local cases in Wuhan from March 18 to March 22. The numbers, according to an analysis in the Post, deserve skepticism.

    They started lying about case numbers again about mid Feb, Thisis the national government for sure,

    https://time.com/5814313/china-denies-hiding-coronavirus

    China’s public reporting on cases and deaths is intentionally incomplete, Bloomberg reported Wednesday, citing three officials, who asked not to be identified because the report is secret. Two of the officials said the report concludes that China’s numbers are fake. The report was received by the White House last week, one of the officials said. …

    U.S. President Donald Trump said Wednesday that he hadn’t received an intelligence report saying Beijing had concealed the outbreak, but that their statistics appeared low. “Their numbers seem to be a little bit on the light side, and I’m being nice when I say that,” he said at a daily coronavirus briefing at the White House.

    Sammy Finkelman (1a8726)

  263. 214. Bt did the fish tank cleaner have an extra poisonous ingredient? And there;s the dosage.

    Sammy Finkelman (1a8726)

  264. Being as how worldwide percentages mostly follow what China was giving earlier with the exceptions of Italy, Iran and now Spain, I wonder where the lie is in China’s numbers?

    Total cases? Fatalities? Deaths might be harder to hide, but I don’t live in a country that runs its own people over with tanks, so what do I know? I suppose that someday the world will get sketchy accounts of what happened for the sake of history. I doubt that the Chicoms will emulate the Nazis and try to keep detailed records, but you never know.

    Russ from Winterset (4fe966)

  265. Sammy @266. If the product is labeled as a drug, they have to pay closer attention to what’s with it than they would for something already labeled as poison.

    Russ from Winterset (4fe966)

  266. China claims no new cases, which we pretty much know for sure is a lie. I don’t doubt that they’re lying about the deaths too, but are they lying about the extra proportional deaths, or are they covering up a shitload of bodies? More bodies means more virulent virus, unless you figure in smoking/ air pollution in China along with Chinese medicine. Those factors could be like the factors in Italy that are increasing fatality percentages.

    Russ from Winterset (4fe966)

  267. Since we’re being linguistic, the Greek word “pharmakeion” (yeah, like in pharmacy) means both medicine and poison. Except poison which you put on arrowheads, that’s “toxin”.

    nk (1d9030)

  268. 269. And “toxin” comes from the name of the bow of Hercules, whose arrows he dipped in the poisonous blood of the dead Learnean Hydra — Toxus.

    Gryph (08c844)

  269. New York State has about half (but looks like less) the disagnosed cases in the country: 83,982.

    United states total 215,175. New York City 47,439

    As of Wed night.

    Deaths: U.S. 5110, NY State 2,219 NYC: 1,374

    Many ventilators sent from fed gov to Calif don’t work maybe mostly because of expired batteries.

    Contract expired end of August, then companies argues. Nobody was maintaining them for about five months.

    https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/01/us/politics/coronavirus-ventilators.html

    But what federal officials have neglected to mention is that an additional 2,109 lifesaving devices are unavailable after the contract to maintain the government’s stockpile lapsed late last summer, and a contracting dispute meant that a new firm did not begin its work until late January. By then, the coronavirus crisis was already underway….

    ,,,,In fact, the contract with a company that was maintaining the machines expired at the end of last summer, and a contract protest delayed handing the job to Agiliti, a Minneapolis-based provider of medical equipment services and maintenance. Agiliti was not given the $38 million task until late January, when the scope of the global coronavirus crisis was first becoming clear…..

    …“We were given a stop-work order before we’d even started,” said Tom Leonard, the chief executive of Agiliti, which had won the contract to service the ventilators in the stockpile. “Between the time of the original and the time of this contract award, I don’t know who was responsible or if anybody was responsible for those devices. But it was not us.”

    Mr. Leonard said confidentiality agreements with the government over the stockpile prohibited him from giving specific figures on the number of ventilators the company was now working on.

    Sammy Finkelman (1a8726)

  270. nk (1d9030) — 4/2/2020 @ 11:18 am

    Ah yes, BOTOX, and the people who poison themselves for a price.

    felipe (023cc9)

  271. The issue with the CPAP machines (and with humdifiers, which also help) is they spray virus particles around.

    Sammy Finkelman (1a8726)

  272. China probably has accurate population statistics at least in cities.

    Their various statistics probably now contradict each other, but truth maybe can be figured out if people are willing to make a few guesses.

    The biggest lie was probably as to cause of death. Also number of cases.

    People can look at excess deaths in first quarter if 2020. and there are things that temporarily escaped censorship. By the way, Dr, Li Wenliang was completely politicallyrehabiliated afew days before he died Feb 6 or 7. Some people have remained disappeared.

    A woman had a diary if quarantine stopped it March 25 saying it would be he last post. She may have been careful.

    Sammy Finkelman (1a8726)

  273. Russia is also probably hiding total number of cases. But they don’t have so many.

    Here there are numerous uncounted untested not very sick or sick at all people. But we know that. Antibody tests may give some answers later. We don’t really have any good statistics for flu. Maybe the=at will be recognized.

    Some deaths in nursing homes in USA in Feb may be misattributed.

    Many countries have different results, Depends on testing tracking treating.

    Sammy Finkelman (1a8726)

  274. Russia is also probably hiding total number of cases. But they don’t have so many.

    Well, that’s understandable. Nobody wants to go to Russia and the ones already there are looking to emigrate. Why should viruses be any different?

    nk (1d9030)

  275. Here’s an M.D. explaining how the Corona virus kills.

    felipe (023cc9)

  276. Occam’s Razor would point to her making a bonehead move and then grasping at straws to blame Trump for her stupidity.

    See, to me, Occam’s Razor would point to her making a bonehead move and then telling the truth about where she heard about the substance that she encouraged her husband to drink, which killed him.

    Patterico (115b1f)

  277. Want to know which states are going to see the worst of it?

    https://covid19.healthdata.org/

    For example, more people will die in Alabama (5500) than in California (5000), mostly due to California flattening the curve and Alabama failing to do so. CA will have plenty of hospital beds, and almost enough ICU beds on the peak day (4/26) while Alabama will be short 22,000 bends and 3900 ICU beds at their peak (4/19).

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  278. See, to me, Occam’s Razor would point to her making a moronic move PERIOD.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  279. Here’s an M.D. explaining how the Corona virus kills.

    He’s gotta do it in less than 34 minutes if he wants me to listen.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  280. Surprise: CornyVee kills careers, too:

    CNN reports Commander of carrier USS Theodore Roosevelt has been relieved of his command for supposedly ‘leaking’ coronavirus memo.

    So much for coughing up truth to power.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  281. So much for coughing up truth to power.

    Pretty sure he’d be OK if he simply told his bosses. But no, he had to tell the press. That’s a non-starter in any man’s navy.

    “Loose lips sink ships”

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  282. https://www.lawweekly.org/front-page/letter-to-the-editor-skardon-petition-result

    Good news. UVA School of Law backed down and made the right decision.

    NJRob (4d595c)

  283. Donald Trump is just about the biggest douchebag in the world. This is on White House stationary as official communication.

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827)

  284. Peter Navarro is on TeeVee talking about the DPA and their strong action. All examples he gives are things that happened before the DPA was invoked, all voluntary, and no official order has been given to any company as of 5:09PM today. So there are zero examples to be used.

    They are talking about using the DPA to enhance production in June or July, hopefully, a time lag will be between 90 and 180 days because manufacturing of things isn’t magic, and the world of manufacturing isn’t infinite, and demand comes from everywhere, not just the US.

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827)

  285. Thank God, we can use some good news. This supports what I’ve heard from the medical community here in the nyc metro area over the last week (see comment 211 above).

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mdtHmySiYA0&feature=emb_logo

    Mo Hawk (6c01b3)

  286. Nothing makes me more angry than the incompetence shown during these briefings. Kushner, Trump, and Navarro trying to speak about things they are ignorant about, which is only limited only by their ability to make noise, makes me want to throw a shoe at the TeeVee.

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827)

  287. Donald Trump is just about the biggest douchebag in the world. This is on White House stationary as official communication.

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827) — 4/2/2020 @ 3:49 pm

    Heh. That is quite the letter. I like how he even brings AOC into the mix. The letter is typical of Baby Trump – attacks, blame, whining, impeachement-witch-hunt bitterness. It’s what I expect from him. What really bugged me was the glaring typo in the last sentence: “If you any questions, please do not hesitate to call. Or, in the alterative, call Rear Admiral Polowczyk.” Ugh.

    Dana (4fb37f)

  288. In response to governors say that they are bidding for key supplies like on Ebay, Polowczyk said “that’s normally how things work.”

    “I’m not here to disrupt a supply chain,” he said. “These six distributors have six to 700 warehouses. They have trucks to go to the hospital door every day. We are bringing product in, they are filling orders for hospitals, nursing homes like normal. I am putting volume into that system.”

    You effing job is to streamline this BECAUSE IT’S NOT LIKE NORMAL.

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827)

  289. Navarro is excelled only by Duh Donald as an economics moron. He’s known for it…

    Ragspierre (d9bec9)

  290. After Navarro said that it’s “key” to have advanced manufacturing on U.S. soil, Trump chimed in to say: “If you think there is bidding between federal government in the states, let us know and we will drop out immediately or you drop out and we lower the price.”

    These guys are in charge. Oh my god, we’re all going to die.

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827)

  291. Asked about New York City Mayor Bill de Blasio recommending people to wear masks when they’re with other people, Trump replied that he doesn’t think it will be mandatory “because some people don’t want to do that.”

    “But if people wanted to wear them, they can,” Trump said, before saying that in many cases using a scarf is “better” due to being “thicker.”

    Trump is the thickest of all, is that why he’s immune?

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827)

  292. From Trump’s letter to Schumer

    “The Defense Production Act (DPA) has been consistently used by my team and me for the purchase of billions of dollars’ worth of equipment, medical supplies, ventilators, and other related items. It has been powerful leverage, so powerful that companies general do whatever we are asking, without even a formal notice. They know something is coming, and that’s all they need to know.

    “If you spent less time on your ridiculous impeachment hoax, which went haplessly on forever and ended up going nowhere (except increasing my poll numbers) and instead focused on helping the people of New York, then New York would not have been so completely unprepared for the ‘invisible enemy.’ No wonder AOC and others are thinking about running against you in the primary. If they did, they would likely win”

    So Trump was diverted from CV responses by impeachment. But Tuesday he said he wasn’t. Pick a lane.

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827)

  293. This:

    Jared Kushner says some governors don’t know how many ventilators they have & coronavirus outbreak is revealing manager skills.

    “What a lot of the voters are seeing now is that when you elect somebody…think about who will be a competent manager during the time of crisis.”

    SMDH.

    Dana (f9ed75)

  294. Hey DCSCA, maybe a switch of dominant cartel-of-record will make that grocery trip less treacherous:

    http://www.businessinsider.com/laredo-texas-residents-dont-wear-masks-fined-2020-4

    urbanleftbehind (b166e8)

  295. It’s called chutzpah, Dana.

    nk (1d9030)

  296. My wife has now informed me that if I want to watch the briefings, I must go to the basement. Trump’s not going to hear me any better than the coaches during the sportsball.

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827)

  297. CNN reports Commander of carrier USS Theodore Roosevelt has been relieved of his command for supposedly ‘leaking’ coronavirus memo.

    So much for coughing up truth to power.

    Loose lips etc… All that’s missing from this is a d-ass quote from McHale’s Navy.

    Colonel Haiku (0aee87)

  298. Two and a half hours, about a minute of things that make you feel more confidence. The rest is petrifying in just how incompetent they are, and Birx’s updates are truly frightening when she’s correcting the dummies.

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827)

  299. no evidence is no evidence

    The first rule of tautology club is the first rule of tautology club.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  300. If there is any one person to hang, it would be Mayor De Blasio.

    As the coronavirus stretches New York City emergency rooms and paramedics to their limits, a regional EMT group has issued new guidelines almost unthinkable even days ago — if someone’s in cardiac arrest and you can’t revive them in the field, don’t bring them to the emergency room.

    https://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/coronavirus/grim-new-rules-for-nyc-paramedics-dont-bring-cardiac-arrests-to-er-for-revival/2356265/

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  301. Put yo BigBoy pants on…

    Colonel Haiku (0aee87)

  302. Nothing makes me more angry than the incompetence shown during these briefings. Kushner, Trump, and Navarro trying to speak about things they are ignorant about, which is only limited only by their ability to make noise, makes me want to throw a shoe at the TeeVee.

    I have to admit being unable to watch the Trump show.

    Even a fool, when he holdeth his peace, is counted wise: and he that shutteth his lips is esteemed a man of understanding.
    –Proverbs 17:28

    Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak and to remove all doubt.
    — variously attributed to Twain or Lincoln, and probably said by neither

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  303. Donald Trump is just about the biggest douchebag in the world. This is on White House stationary as official communication.

    I agree it is inappropriate for Trump to use the White House to spew his hate of Senator Schumer. OTOH, I cannot find fault with the particulars. Schumer has done nothing at all but use this as a poltical football.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  304. The rest is petrifying in just how incompetent they are

    Well some of it shows stupidity, tone-deafness, blame-casting and self-seeking too. It’s unfair to single out mere incompetence.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  305. “The notion of the federal stockpile was it’s supposed to be our stockpile. It’s not supposed to be states stockpiles that they then use.”

    Jared Kushner

    https://twitter.com/atrupar/status/1245852517474295809

    Davethulhu (3857ea)

  306. I guess the problem I have with blaming Trump for everything is that it lets so many other incompetents, fools, knaves and other assorted scoundrels off the hook.

    Not one person in a position of power, from China to Europe the WHO to the US has covered themselves with glory. At best some have been less incompetent than others.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  307. *to Europe TO WHO to the US

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  308. There’s a reading material question for you, for NJRob, on the Open Non-Coronavirus Policy Non-Trump Non-Politics Thread, Kevin.

    nk (1d9030)

  309. Whether Schumer is right, wrong, or another d-bag, he’s not in the command chain of this response at all.

    Also

    “The Defense Production Act (DPA) has been consistently used by my team and me for the purchase of billions of dollars’ worth of equipment, medical supplies, ventilators, and other related items. It has been powerful leverage, so powerful that companies general do whatever we are asking, without even a formal notice. They know something is coming, and that’s all they need to know.“

    Every bit of that is a lie, first off, DPA actually hasn’t been implemented by agencies who actually order things, whatever the things are, products, supply chains, stuff, things, specifics.

    The bit about leverage is exactly the opposite of the last. You can’t have leverage, and not actually tell anyone what you may or may not being doing to be leveraged, that’s not what leverage means. It’s so powerful that they do what you want even without telling them what the something is…but it’s powerful…GM must work with Ventec to build ventilators, OK, that’s been going on for 3 weeks, and that’s the only thing the admin has been pointing too. Orders for GM to do a thing they were already doing, and the admin still hasn’t actually done anything to/for/whatever in the Kokomo deal.

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827)

  310. Here’s some more callous from the Trump-loving right, courtesy of the Instapundit.

    “Governor Cuomo said: (The New York coronavirus death toll) is people who have been on a ventilator for a period of time. ‘If you go on a ventilator there is only a 20% chance you will come off it.’”
    So why’s he making such a big deal about ventilators?

    The answer to Reynolds’ question seems obvious: To save that 20% who would’ve died without the ventilators. The question itself is borderline malevolent, not even borderline actually.

    Paul Montagu (0cc189)

  311. I guess the problem I have with blaming Trump for everything is that it lets so many other incompetents, fools, knaves and other assorted scoundrels off the hook.

    Probably, but these people are his people. We go to war with the army we have, I guess. I wish they, whoever they is, would follow the first rule of holes at this point. We’re not looking for a shortcut to China.

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827)

  312. The quote is from the Guido, Paul. He’s the one who says if you go on a ventilator you’re 80% dead. Reynolds is challenging him: “So why you a makea sucha bigga deal abouta ventilators, eh?” Because the Guido has been making a big deal about ventilators.

    nk (1d9030)

  313. If “malevolence” was a qualifier, there would be a good many red-faced people.

    Colonel Haiku (0aee87)

  314. So in his SOTU, Trump makes a commitment to help protect Americans from the Wuhancoronavirus. Pelosi makes a show of tearing up her copy of the speech. No pundits, or cable show guests, Democrats or media – BIRM – have ever noted Trump’s mention of it. Until a blog site mentioned it within the last few days.

    Very interesting.

    Colonel Haiku (0aee87)

  315. >“So why you a makea sucha bigga deal abouta ventilators, eh?”

    obviously *because the ventlators are required to save the lives of the 20% who survive* and *because the 80% are on ventilators for weeks* and *because you can’t tell up front which group any given individual is going to be in.*

    aphrael (7962af)

  316. Yes, I finally got it. Thank you, aphrael, and my apologies, Paul. I let my antipathy for Cuomo influence my reading comprehension. There is really nothing to choose between New Yorkers, is there? Present company excepted, of course. 😉

    nk (1d9030)

  317. I thought our main NYer here was just “talky”, as are a few of the Texans.

    urbanleftbehind (b166e8)

  318. Today in dumb, Jared Kushner

    The notion of the federal stockpile was it’s supposed to be our stockpile. It’s not supposed to be state stockpiles that they then use.

    Well, only federal citizens of the US then, you know our. State citizens are them, not us. Come on ya losers. We’s got ours.

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827)

  319. …my apologies, Paul. I let my antipathy for Cuomo influence my reading comprehension.

    No big. I didn’t want to stand in the way of a good riff.

    Paul Montagu (0cc189)

  320. Here’s some more classic callousness from this Trump administration. The Secretary of the Navy said not two days ago, regarding the news of the USS Theodore Roosevelt, that “We’re not looking to shoot the messenger here,” and then today they shot the messenger:

    The Navy on Thursday removed the captain of an aircraft carrier crippled by the coronavirus, two days after a blunt letter the officer wrote warning the service of the need to get more sailors off the vessel created a furor.

    The way it works is this: If you write a letter for the benefit of the people under your command but it makes Trump look bad, you get fired. If you’re a war criminal like Eddie Gallagher and you say lots of nice things about Trump, you get pardoned. This is the Bizarro TrumpWorld that we’re in.

    Paul Montagu (0cc189)

  321. There are two (main) federal hospitals set up in New York City.

    One, the Jacob Javits Center was originally for non Covid-19 cases That’s being changed.

    The other is a hospital ship, It’s taking almost no patients. Maybe two dozen. Not only must they test negative for the virus (which takes time) there are numerous other exclusions.

    They are not thinking ahead very much.

    Eisenhower said something like plans are useless but planning is essential (meaning I suppose you need a framework)

    Sammy Finkelman (337057)

  322. So in his SOTU, Trump makes a commitment to help protect Americans from the Wuhancoronavirus. Pelosi makes a show of tearing up her copy of the speech. No pundits, or cable show guests, Democrats or media – BIRM – have ever noted Trump’s mention of it. Until a blog site mentioned it within the last few days.

    Very interesting.

    Colonel Haiku (0aee87) — 4/2/2020 @ 6:10 pm

    Until late March the only concern Trump’s displayed about Covid-19 was that it might impact the stock market.
    -He failed to take this seriously.
    -He failed to take adequate action to keep it out.
    -He failed to react properly when it was here.
    -He’s failed to organize a muti-state response.

    Hard to find a single part of this that hasn’t been a terrible failure on his part.

    Time123 (af99e9)

  323. @323

    I think Eisenhower’s quote was about preparedness. If you have a plan, and are prepared to execute it you will have resources in place, people trained in what they’re supposed to do, and a common expectation of next steps.

    Circumstances won’t work out the way you anticipate and you’ll have to react to that but you still have the stuff and instead of starting from scratch you’re modifying what you trained and communicated.

    Maybe that’s what you meant but I wasn’t sure.

    Time123 (af99e9)

  324. Donald Trump is just about the biggest douchebag in the world. This is on White House stationary as official communication.

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827) — 4/2/2020 @ 3:49 pm

    Heh. That is quite the letter. I like how he even brings AOC into the mix. The letter is typical of Baby Trump – attacks, blame, whining, impeachement-witch-hunt bitterness. It’s what I expect from him. What really bugged me was the glaring typo in the last sentence: “If you any questions, please do not hesitate to call. Or, in the alterative, call Rear Admiral Polowczyk.” Ugh.

    Dana (4fb37f) — 4/2/2020 @ 4:09 pm

    Even his little baby whining is a failure. LMAO

    Time123 (af99e9)

  325. 327. China already won. And they didn’t have to fire a single shot.

    Gryph (08c844)

  326. Senator Corey Gardner (R CO) is asking for a IG investigation into how the strategic national stockpile of ventilators was maintained.

    Good, this is the type of oversight that we need to be doing.

    Time123 (ca85c9)

  327. 329, Time123 (ca85c9) — 4/3/2020 @ 6:39 am

    Senator Corey Gardner (R CO) is asking for a IG investigation into how the strategic national stockpile of ventilators was maintained.

    They were just making a wild guess as to how much they might need. Based on somewhat bad flu projections.

    Contract expired and then routine fair procedures for new one existed. So 20% maybe not maintained for five months. No one was in charge of them. After all, if there’s no emergency it doesn’t matter.

    Ventilators maybe mostly needed batteries changed. (based on a half sentence I read)

    Good, this is the type of oversight that we need to be doing.

    Sammy Finkelman (337057)

  328. 294. Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827) — 4/2/2020 @ 4:30 pm

    So Trump was diverted from CV responses by impeachment. But Tuesday he said he wasn’t. Pick a lane.

    Trump is maybe saying Congress was diverted – they were criticizing him for the wrong thing or for doing too much?

    Sammy Finkelman (337057)

  329. You’re not getting it, Sammy. Anything that happens must be cast in the worst possible terms/light in regards to Trump.

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  330. When light is shown on Trump, the worst is visible. I fixed it for you.

    China already won. And they didn’t have to fire a single shot.

    What did they win, what game were they playing? Their economy is in the toilet because they couldn’t make things for 2 months, and they have no place to ship the things they want to build, because the people who buy them are stuck in there house. Or where you just trying to sound clever?

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827)

  331. National stockpile? Industry has relied on “just in time” inventory for the last quarter of a century, and that requires an uninterrupted manufacturing chain and a good transportation system. Corporations do not want to pay for things until they use them and get paid for them.

    We do have stockpiles of certain things, like the Strategic Petroleum Reserve, but things like masks and surgical gloves?

    To have huge stockpiles of things means having and maintaining huge warehouses; nobody wants to pay for those things.

    The Dana in Kentucky (fd0d45)

  332. You’re not getting it, Sammy. Anything that happens must be cast in the worst possible terms/light in regards to Trump.

    Trump seems to have been foolish enough to think China was lying.
    At the very least he should have been taking steps behind the scenes to make sure we were prepared if China was lying. He didn’t.

    If impeachment distracted him that much, then he’s a lousy executive. [Of course, we already knew that.] Executives have to pay attention to plenty of things at once.

    Kishnevi (86d06e)

  333. Trump seems to have been foolish enough to think China was not lying.

    Left out an important word there!

    Kishnevi (86d06e)

  334. Time123 wrote:

    I think Eisenhower’s quote was about preparedness. If you have a plan, and are prepared to execute it you will have resources in place, people trained in what they’re supposed to do, and a common expectation of next steps.

    Circumstances won’t work out the way you anticipate and you’ll have to react to that but you still have the stuff and instead of starting from scratch you’re modifying what you trained and communicated.

    Given that President Eisenhower’s experience was from World War II, which we entered without being prepared, and had to build the war materiel needed as we went along, it might be relevant, but the Pentagon has always been very busy preparing for the last war.

    This is simply beyond our national experience. In a way, it is like the security preparations we started taking on September 12, 2001. The threat was not anticipated.

    What’s that you say? Someone should have anticipated it? We had a $986 billion deficit in FY2019; should we have been spending even more than that prodigious spending for something that might have happened in people’s wildest dreams but was really wholly unexpected by the vast majority of people?

    The Dana in Kentucky (fd0d45)

  335. Just for the record, Rear Admiral Polowczyk (is that a Ukrainian name?)(just kidding) is a career supply officer. A quarter-master. A naval Jeff Bezos. That’s all he does, that’s all he’s ever done.

    nk (1d9030)

  336. National stockpile? Industry has relied on “just in time” inventory for the last quarter of a century, and that requires an uninterrupted manufacturing chain and a good transportation system. Corporations do not want to pay for things until they use them and get paid for them.

    Yes, “logistics”…

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  337. What’s that you say? Someone should have anticipated it? We had a $986 billion deficit in FY2019; should we have been spending even more than that prodigious spending for something that might have happened in people’s wildest dreams but was really wholly unexpected by the vast majority of people?

    Planning for pandemics is part of the NSC’s AOR. Even when no specific bureaucrat was dedicated to it.
    And pandemics are not nearly as unexpected as you make them out to be.

    Kishnevi (86d06e)

  338. Just for the record: It’s 50 degrees now outside.

    Sammy Finkelman (337057)

  339. This is simply beyond our national experience. In a way, it is like the security preparations we started taking on September 12, 2001. The threat was not anticipated.

    What’s that you say? Someone should have anticipated it? We had a $986 billion deficit in FY2019; should we have been spending even more than that prodigious spending for something that might have happened in people’s wildest dreams but was really wholly unexpected by the vast majority of people?

    The Dana in Kentucky (fd0d45) — 4/3/2020 @ 8:50 am

    It was anticipated and there was a task for created to focus on it. This team was re-organized into the broader national security apparatus. Which is fine. But it doesn’t like we were were well prepared at all. Which is not fine.

    I understand that plans might not be adequate to the situation, but it looks like these plans were completely ignored or inadequate

    Time123 (ca85c9)

  340. Here’s another example of Trump’s weak leadership.

    Canada is a close ally of the US with whom we have tremendous leverage and easy communication. There’s no good reason to make bold public statements ahead of working out the details of what we’re going to do with them.

    Additionally, 3M is a well known company staffed by a lot of people that take pride in working there. Unless he comes out with something bad that they were doing that’s another pool of people that he’s alienated just a little bit. It’s divisive when it doesn’t need to be during a time when a good leader would be working to bring people together on a common mission.

    Time123 (ca85c9)

  341. “National stockpile? Industry has relied on “just in time” inventory for the last quarter of a century”

    Maybe “running the country like a business” isn’t the best idea after all.

    Davethulhu (3857ea)

  342. Compared to what?

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  343. 335. Kishnevi (86d06e) — 4/3/2020 @ 8:45 am

    Trump seems to have been foolish enough to think China was lying.

    Now he’s foolish enough to ready to start believing them, or pretend to start believing them. At the very first sign of nice words, he’ll say everything is fine.

    He does this all the time, except with Maduro and Iran.

    At the very least he should have been taking steps behind the scenes to make sure we were prepared if China was lying. He didn’t.

    Trump was doing to China what China did to Wuhan. (He noticed what China did.) And then he stopped.

    He evacuated some Americans from Wuhan. Had to negotiate this all with the Chinese government including names of who would drive Americans to special chartered plane at airport.

    They didn’t test. They didn’t even check temperatures. Just quarantined everyone 14 days. A figure basically picked out of the air.

    If impeachment distracted him that much, then he’s a lousy executive. [Of course, we already knew that.] Executives have to pay attention to plenty of things at once.

    If impeachment distracted anyone, it distracted everyone.

    Sammy Finkelman (337057)

  344. 3M makes most of their masks outside the US; 35% in the US, 65% outside, if put up limits on what can leave, other countries will do the same, Taiwan already has. So the US will be able to buy 100% of the 3M US output, but we will be locked out of the global supply. We need these supplies now. We don’t need the DPA to break the supply chain, it needs to streamline the last mile of the supply chain so supply meets demand, AT THE APPROPRIATE TIME. Erg, frustrating.

    Logistics are hard, but it’s not wizardry, muggles can do it, in fact UPS, Fedex, Walmart, Costco, GM/Ford… all are incredibly good at it. Use the DPA to requisition some logistics leadership for skills, because that’s the biggest miss with this administration; knowledge and skills.

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827)

  345. It wasn’t just China that was lying. The Whole Health Organization was lying through most of January. China said coronovirus was not infectious person to person. The WHO said that.

    More:

    https://nypost.com/2020/04/02/chinas-deadly-coronavirus-lie-co-conspirator-the-world-health-organization

    But two facts seem absolutely certain. First, China’s Communist authorities have lied, concealed and misled about the origins of the epidemic and the toll of the virus in China. Second, the World Health Organization has acted as Beijing’s handmaiden….

    Independent Chinese journalists have detailed the Wuhan coverup: They report that a Chinese lab isolated and identified the strange new virus last December — but that the authorities ­ordered it to stop its work, get rid of its specimens and keep quiet. [this is being blamed on local people. They do have a lot of delegated authority, but maybe someone higher approved. Mostly true Jan 20 to Feb 12 or so. Then about mid Feb they started lying again. They wanted to claim they eliminated the disease within China -SF] It took almost another month for the government to acknowledge that a SARS-like contagion, spread by human contact, was exploding in Hubei province…..

    ….Concerning deaths: News reports indicate that delivery of funeral urns has spiked in Wuhan, the epicenter of the pandemic. Whereas Beijing currently admits to some 3,300 coronavirus fatalities nationwide, Chinese netizens cited by Radio Free Asia are claiming the Wuhan tally alone is far higher than that.

    One widely circulating guess is that the true figure is closer to 40,000. British Prime Minister Boris Johnson’s scientific advisers have concluded that paramount leader Xi Jinping’s regime has downplayed the true number of cases in China “by 15 to 40 times.” As Bloomberg reported this week, the US intelligence community has likewise informed the White House that China’s reported ­infection and death totals are implausibly low.

    Then there is the Communist Party’s active disinformation campaign abroad. This month, for example, in a tweet that garnered 160 million views, a Chinese Foreign Ministry spokesperson suggested that the coronavirus might actually be American in origin — brought to Wuhan by the US military!

    Which brings us to the WHO’s malfeasance in this affair. The WHO should have known at the outset that it was dealing with a bad-faith actor in Beijing. Yet ­instead of immediately insisting upon access, openness and transparency from China, WHO leadership followed the Chinese lead and at times even took the Chinese line.

    The thing is they censored not only (crimes) that they wanted to happen but what they didn’t want to happen.

    They do that with accidents and natural disasters too,

    Sammy Finkelman (337057)

  346. The very fact that truth-seekers are left counting urns is an indictment not only of the Beijing ­regime, but also of the WHO. To help stem the pandemic, the WHO should have been tirelessly pressing China to tell the truth.

    Far from sounding an alarm, however, the UN outfit was ­impassive while Beijing stonewalled international health ­authorities for weeks. Indeed, WHO Director-General Tedros Adhanom Ghebreyesus praised the Chinese regime for its “transparency” in the crisis. Tedros, ­recall, was Beijing’s candidate for WHO chief and owes his job to China’s campaign for him at the United Nations

    At the end of January, when President Trump ordered a travel ban against entry to the United States from China and other coronavirus “hot spots,” Tedros, echoing Chinese authorities, roundly criticized the decision, insisting it would “have the effect of increasing fear and stigma, with little public health benefit.” By March 12, when the WHO finally declared the coronavirus outbreak a pandemic, misbegotten deference to the Chinese government had ­incalculably impeded the effort to contain the contagion….

    Sammy Finkelman (337057)

  347. > The threat was not anticipated.

    Of course it was. In certain circles the potential for a catastrophic virus getting loose in the modern world has been understood since the first Ebola outbreak.

    aphrael (7962af)

  348. Although the infection rate is five times higher in Bnei Brak than on average in Israel death toll seems low.

    The Jewish Press (published Tuesday night March 30) reported.

    Number of confirmed coronavirus cases in Israel: 4,831 (nearing 5,000)

    95 in hospital in moderate condition, 83 in critical condition of which 69 were on ventilators.

    163 are listed as recovered (From what condition? It means sent home from hospital apparently.)

    And 18 died. (after being diagnosed I suppose)

    Sammy Finkelman (337057)

  349. Some threat was not anticipated but nobody had any numbers. They planned for what was convenient.

    and we had stupid assumptions made. Both that made things easier and that mae things harder.

    1) The 6 foot away breathing rule

    2) The ignorance of amount of exposure. All or nothing.

    3) The 14 days rule for someone who was near someone who tested positive.

    4) The no washing of masks.

    5) Blaming on hands touching if infection could not be traced to someone being within 6 feet.

    6) Ignoring ventilation systems

    7) Slow breaching of protocol for new use of drugs. Slow approval of new tests.

    Sammy Finkelman (337057)

  350. To whom it may concern:

    My assertions that we have willfully committed economic suicide may have been a little too kind.

    Gryph (08c844)

  351. If impeachment distracted anyone, it distracted everyone.

    Oh, yes. The effort to impeach should leave the fever swamp Left and NeverTrump with a sense of guilt, shame, and uselessness, but they don’t embarrass easy.

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  352. China is major asshoe.

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  353. My assertions that we have willfully committed economic suicide may have been a little too kind.

    So, do you agree with the authors of the medium post that social distancing will have to be extended until a treatment or vaccine is available? Or are you saying all effort is futile, and lets just get on with it, did you actually have a perspective?

    If you’re going to trying to insinuate something, you should probably just say it.

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827)

  354. China I think is pushing the idea that hydroxychloroquine isn’t really so good and the way to stop the virus is isolation like theysupposedly did.

    They’ve gotten the WHO and Dr Anthony Fauci to go along somewhat. Result: USA is country with least use of hydroxychloroquine

    Sammy Finkelman (694340)

  355. Note: My brother (and family) is confined to house – things being bought and brought by daughter (nurse) and son in law. Nobody sick but they were in ame place with someone who tested positive.

    Sammy Finkelman (694340)

  356. Got coronavrus postcard this week Partially out of date.

    Sammy Finkelman (4eddd7)

  357. They;re criticizing Trump for not all out endorsing idea everybody wear masks all the time outside.

    Meanwhile no one n contact wiht Trump or Pence without being tested,

    They didn;t do much tests from first Us case for weeks.

    Sammy Finkelman (4eddd7)

  358. To have huge stockpiles of things means having and maintaining huge warehouses; nobody wants to pay for those things.

    Not true. A LOT of what we’re short of is compact and requires little storage space.

    Additionally, we have vast unused storage space and potential space all over the nation. We already pay for it.

    Ragspierre (d9bec9)

  359. Gov Cuomo reports 10,000 coronavirus patients discaharged from hospital so far – also about 630 deaths in one day. He is happy with ventilator situation for now and expects peak in about two weeks. But what then??

    Temperature was 54 degrees at 9:20 pm

    Lowered economic activity detectable by seismomemeters.

    And about one third of world’s population is under some sort of lok down. On;y one third? Even if they;v e lifted it in most of China?

    Sammy Finkelman (4eddd7)

  360. 362. But they needed to pay somebody to change the batteries. Another problems was how do decide how much of a stockpile you need?

    Sammy Finkelman (4eddd7)

  361. What batteries, Sammy?

    How much to stockpile is a rather simple analysis to make, especially given what we’re learning in this hard lesson.

    Ragspierre (d9bec9)

  362. Ragspierre (d9bec9) — 4/5/2020 @ 7:34 am

    What batteries, Sammy?

    The ventilators operate on batteries, I think.

    You could have a ventilator that didn’t need them but that’s 1960s technology.

    Approximately 20% of the people placed on ventilators survive.

    Doctors have anecdotally figured out how to improve the odds a little. Place people prone for one things, something with fluids and another thing I heard on Face the Nation.

    The CDC isn’t recommending anything because their position is that they know nothing except for what is scientifically proven or what they assumed at the start which was not really based on evidence..

    They don;t even know about hydroxychloroquine, let alone the artificially made antibodies that 4 or 5 companies have started work on.

    How much to stockpile is a rather simple analysis to make, especially given what we’re learning in this hard lesson.

    Do you know how many cases you are going to have??

    Sammy Finkelman (4eddd7)

  363. Why would you need good batteries in a machine that was in storage? Generally, having batteries in something is a bad thing, as batteries are prone to problems that can cause damage to the thing they’re in.

    As to the amount to store, you can extrapolate how much you’d need before a new supply kicked in, times X as a safety factor. Standard practice for a lot of professions/planners. We should have a lot of the needed data right now.

    Ragspierre (d9bec9)

  364. Ragspierre (d9bec9) — 4/5/2020 @ 1:12 pm

    Why would you need good batteries in a machine that was in storage?

    Because they wanted to save money on batteries. You know government budgeting. No batteries last forever anyway, but they should have been good for ten years. (now I am half guessing as to the problem. It should be published — somwhere)

    Maybe they figured they’d have the flu pandemic in two or three years. It took longer and it wasn;t flu.

    Generally, having batteries in something is a bad thing, as batteries are prone to problems that can cause damage to the thing they’re in.

    Batteries make the ventilators extremely portable and they work in blackouts. I do know they have batteries.

    As to the amount to store, you can extrapolate how much you’d need before a new supply kicked in, times X as a safety factor. Standard practice for a lot of professions/planners.

    That’s a very very good idea. But they evidently didn’t do it.

    We should have a lot of the needed data right now.

    No we don’t. How do you know how fast you need to use them up in the next similar pandemic?

    What we do know, or can say, is that this was a compromise of sorts.

    Sammy Finkelman (4eddd7)


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