Patterico's Pontifications

3/30/2020

HHS Approves Treatment Methods, Vaccine Testing To Begin In Months

Filed under: General — Dana @ 8:44 am



[guest post by Dana]

[Ed. Since we’ve been discussing chloroquine phosphate and hydroxychloroquine, consider this a thread related to treatments being considered (including testing a coronavirus vaccine). Also, in light of this weekend’s comments, please remember this isn’t a place to “promote” a specific treatment...]

From Health and Human Services:

The U.S. Department of Health and Human Services (HHS) today accepted 30 million doses of hydroxychloroquine sulfate donated by Sandoz, the Novartis generics and biosimilars division, and one million doses of chloroquine phosphate donated by Bayer Pharmaceuticals, for possible use in treating patients hospitalized with COVID-19 or for use in clinical trials. These and other companies may donate additional doses, and companies have ramped up production to provide additional supplies of the medication to the commercial market.

The U.S. Food and Drug Administration (FDA) issued an Emergency Use Authorization (EUA) to BARDA to allow hydroxychloroquine sulfate and chloroquine phosphate products donated to the Strategic National Stockpile (SNS) to be distributed and prescribed by doctors to hospitalized teen and adult patients with COVID-19, as appropriate, when a clinical trial is not available or feasible.

Sandoz and Bayer are the latest companies stepping up to strengthen the U.S. response to COVID-19, and ASPR is working with additional companies willing to donate doses of hydroxychloroquine and chloroquine…

Use of the donated medications is expected to help ease supply pressures for the drug, and the FDA is also working with manufacturers of chloroquine and hydroxychloroquine to increase production to ensure these drugs also remain available for patients dependent on them for treatment of malaria, lupus and rheumatoid arthritis. Some states and retail pharmacies also have taken action to preserve the supply of these and other drugs for these patients.

In addition to accepting and distributing the donated medicines, HHS is funding clinical trials of two drugs, Kevzara (sarilumab) and remdesivir, and is supporting the earlier development of multiple potential therapeutic treatments, vaccines, and diagnostic tests for COVID-19.

Time is not your friend during a pandemic. Doctors in France and Italy are already prescribing hydroxychloroquine and chloroquine as treatments for coronavirus patients.

Also, vaccine testing will begin in September:

Johnson & Johnson said Monday human testing of its experimental vaccine for the coronavirus will begin by September and it could be available for emergency use authorization in early 2021.

J&J also said it has committed more than $1 billion of investment in partnership with the federal Biomedical Advanced Research and Development Authority, which is part of the Department of Health and Human Services, to co-fund vaccine research.

J&J’s lead vaccine candidate will enter a phase 1 human clinical study by September, the company said, and clinical data on its effects is expected before the end of the year. If the vaccine works well, the company said it could be available for emergency use in early 2021.

On top of a lead vaccine candidate, J&J said it has two back-ups. The company said it began working on COVID-19 vaccine development in January.

–Dana

232 Responses to “HHS Approves Treatment Methods, Vaccine Testing To Begin In Months”

  1. Good morning. I’ve added a caution to the post: Please remember this isn’t a place to promote a specific treatment you’ve read about..

    Dana (4fb37f)

  2. There has been a lot of discussion here pro and con on the chloroquine phosphate and hydroxychloroquine treatments.

    Let’s start with a basic premise. WE DON’T KNOW. This is now an experiment, and while there is some faint, anecdotal data that it might work, we really don’t know.

    So those on one side who are convinced this is the magic pill, and those on the other side who are convinced it is a con, should be more humble and realize that we just don’t know.

    As for downsides, all medicines have downsides and side effects. Chemotherapy has severe side effects, yet it is used for cancer all the time. These drugs have been around for decades so we know their downsides, more or less.

    Ordinarily, we would require 12 to 18 months at least of study before approving this. This is a crisis, so we don’t have that. These are trials of desperation, which I hope will work.

    Bored Lawyer (56c962)

  3. Great comment, BL, it is amazing how fast we’re learning but you’re right it’s out of desperation.

    So those on one side who are convinced this is the magic pill, and those on the other side who are convinced it is a con, should be more humble and realize that we just don’t know.

    I don’t speak for everybody on this side, but I really think we think there’s a lot of chance this treatment works. Klink said he’d take it if he were in the ICU. I would go straight to the shelves of the pet store if I was dying. I think there’s a real chance this medication does help, probably in conjunction with other medication.

    But one of my concerns is that a couple of doctors (and one politician) saw this as a great way to promote themselves early, taking credit. The researchers figuring out how to make this work (or if it doesn’t) are going to be unsung heroes. That shouldn’t matter, but it does bug me.

    Dustin (928d9a)

  4. Time just isn’t our friend during a pandemic. There are going to be risks taken that there normally wouldn’t be when there is the luxury of time. Balancing risk and effectiveness is an unenviable responsibility.

    Dana (4fb37f)

  5. Well here is a novel approach:

    Germany will issue coronavirus antibody certificates to allow quarantined to re-enter society
    Researchers to test thousands for immunity as Berlin plans exit strategy for pandemic lock down

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/03/29/germany-will-issue-coronavirus-antibody-certificates-allow-quarantined/

    Bored Lawyer (56c962)

  6. Will they make let Jenny McCarthy get the vaccine?

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  7. 2 – Bored Lawyer (56c962) — 3/30/2020 @ 8:59 am

    Agreed that we just don’t know.

    I think it can be argued that the benefits outweigh the risks, considering:

    1. Several emergency room physicians in NYC (and elsewhere) have prescribed themselves Plaquenil as a prophylactic. If anyone could be more invested in that risk/reward, I couldn’t identify them

    2. Physicians worldwide have used hydroxychloroquine for off label use – obviously every application hasn’t availed itself of double-blind trials. Have adverse effects been documented from these off label applications?

    3. Hydroxycholorquine is a less toxic version than chloroquine phosphate – up to 40% less risk for side effects
    4. The length of use for treating COVID-19 is far shorter than for some intended uses, mitigating damage seen with long-term use

    Mo Hawk (6c01b3)

  8. Apparently there are 8 strains of this virus already.

    Much data and graphics:

    https://nextstrain.org/ncov?s=Nonthaburi/61/2020

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  9. Bored Lawyer (56c962) — 3/30/2020 @ 9:34 am

    Ah, Germany. “Your papers, please!” Some habits die hard. But “License and registration!” has a certain ring to it, too.

    felipe (023cc9)

  10. The issue with vaccine safety is that we want *everyone* to use a vaccine. All of the risks will be higher.

    There are ways to manage this part of it by making sure that we have a nuanced understanding of the risks and rewards so that people can make an informed decision. But crisis makes it harder to get that level of understanding and our current leadership is especially bad at clearly communicating accurate information. Add in the fact that we humans tend to react more harshly when a negative outcome arises from action rather than inaction and it gets even more complicated.

    Time123 (af99e9)

  11. Also, in light of this weekend’s comments, please remember this isn’t a place to “promote” a specific treatment…

    Not even for Trump to sacrifice 100 head of cattle to Apollo the physician, and Asclepius, and Hygieia and Panacea? He gets to wear a laurel wreath and the meat is distributed to the people?

    I agree with Bored Lawyer.

    nk (1d9030)

  12. In the UK, Category 6 cancer patients have been ordered to cease treatment. I gather that Cat 6, is something like our advanced stage 4, basically a very low chance of survival. The decision was made because they are so at risk to CV-19, have a low likelihood of survival, and take up space in the hospital that they need for treatment of CV-19.

    It’s a terrible situation to be in, and some locations in the US will get there too. My father died of cancer about 15 years ago, started as lung cancer, but after a lobectomy it came back with a vengeance everywhere. He decided to not continue treatment, but it was his decision. This kind of triaging decision is massively painful for those that make it. I hope when we do it, we have a “death panel” set up to define the criteria, so it doesn’t fall on the front line providers. I don’t know if it’s mentally easier to deal with one of these decisions a month, year, or hundreds a day, it has to be traumatizing.

    I hope one of these treatments work, and if I were in a desperate situation, I’d probably take one. I really hope we get easy home testing, that will be a real game changer, because then we can truly map what is going on. Data is needed, data on infections, data on treatment, because if one of these don’t work, its critical to move on quickly, if many more people have been infected, but without symptoms, that is also critical, and we need to know now, or as close to now as is possible.

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827)

  13. I still wonder about the wisdom of dragging this thing out. We have one operating meme: flatten the curve, and when you drive everything by one meme, you find the extreme result rather than the optimum one.

    The people who are “high-risk” have to avoid infection for the ENTIRE time that the pandemic lasts. That period is best defined by how long it takes for the virus to burn its way though the lower-risk people who place other goals above avoiding the virus.

    If there was a way to 1) isolate the high-risk people entirely and 2) get the low-risk groups to cycle through the disease (while maintaining medical availability for those hopefully-few who have bad experiences) you would have an optimum solution where the disease burns out earlier and the never-exposed high-risk folks are protected by whatever herd immunity exists.

    Probably not practical, but there would be substantially fewer deaths than the current everyone-gets-it-by-and-by approach.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  14. Necessity is the mother, etc.
    The Dispatch has a good piece (link) about how and when we start going back to normal, and this sounds like a good template.

    But how will a state know when it’s ready? Under the report’s criteria, when it has achieved all four of these objectives, quoted verbatim:
    ● A sustained reduction in cases for at least 14 days;
    ● Hospitals in the state are safely able to treat all patients requiring hospitalization without resorting to crisis standards of care;
    ● The state is able to test all people with COVID-19 symptoms; and
    ●The state is able to conduct active monitoring of confirmed cases and their contacts.
    After completing these first two phases, the final two involve ending the current crisis by discovering workable therapeutics or developing a safe and effective vaccine and strengthening our national defenses against similar threats in the future.
    There are a few key points here. First, the phase two objectives are, unfortunately, not anything any state is likely to meet anytime extremely soon—certainly not before the April 30 date President Trump has begun to talk of now. Unlike much of the conversation that has taken place around reopening in recent weeks, these objectives are not pegged to a specific date—rather, they’re benchmarks intended to be adopted now that would give states specific goals to work toward in getting the virus sufficiently under control to allow their economies to begin a restart.
    Second, these guidelines are designed, in accordance with the constitutional delegation of such powers, to be implemented and exercised at the discretion of individual states. The report, however, stresses that decentralized authority should not mean decentralized planning in a regional and national crisis like this: Coordinating a plan such as this is a task that necessarily falls to the White House. In the weeks ahead, President Trump’s ability to maintain a working relationship with all 50 of the nation’s governors will be of the utmost importance.

    The report they’re referencing is this one by Dr. Scott Gottlieb, who’s been a voice of reason.

    Paul Montagu (27425b)

  15. That’s because the healthcare systems capacity is X, it’s not going up exponentially, so you want to keep the curve under the limit, or the system collapses, everyone above the limit doesn’t get treatment, for anything, not just CV-19.

    If you were always going to get 60M cases, with 12M needing treatment, but only have capacity to treat 1M a month, spreading that million over a 12 months saves vastly more lives. Locals will still be overloaded, but generally, keeping the load under maximum capacity will save lives. If a well treated outbreak has a mortality rate of 1%, Italy shows you what a poorly treated overwhelmed healthcare system does, approaching 10% mortality, the difference between a few hundred thousand, to a few million. And that doesn’t include strokes, car accidents, heart attacks…

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827)

  16. locales

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827)

  17. I hesitate to stick my nose in here. But I recommend people follow a pal of mine, Dr. Vincent Racaniello, a virologist and educator at Columbia.

    https://www.microbe.tv/

    I trust Vincent, and he talks to world class experts on his podcast.

    This coronavirus is an interesting one. Personally, I think it has been circulating for some time, even before we started hearing about. We won’t know until serology tests come in. But they are coming, and soon.

    https://youtu.be/_DXzQmlPt68

    Until then, folks, wash your hands, cover your coughs, and keep a nice distance from others. And nest with your family. If nothing else, this pandemic will remind us of what is really important.

    Simon Jester (6067ca)

  18. Sound advice, Simon.

    If nothing else, this pandemic will remind us of what is really important.

    True.

    felipe (023cc9)

  19. Like that Microbe.tv link Simon, thx.
    ___ _

    Also, some good news among the bad:

    ABC News Live
    @ABCNewsLive
    ·
    The rate of hospitalizations (in NY) has slowed, from doubling every two days to doubling every six days now.

    “While the overall number is going up, the rate of doubling is actually down,” Cuomo says. http://abcn.ws/2yfE2nn
    __ _

    Andrew Cuomo
    @NYGovCuomo
    ·
    The USNS Comfort seen sailing to New York Harbor from a NYS escort vessel.

    The Comfort brings 1,000 much-needed hospital beds & 1,200 personnel to New York. I’ll be in NYC to receive a briefing upon its arrival.

    https://twitter.com/NYGovCuomo/status/1244630459914629127?s=20
    __ _

    BNO Newsroom
    @BNODesk
    ·
    The number of new cases in Italy is continuing to fall.
    – Thursday: 6,153 new
    – Friday: 5,959 new
    – Saturday: 5,974 new
    – Sunday: 5,217 new
    – Monday: 4,050 new
    __ _

    Hope that’s not because they’re running out of tests….

    harkin (b64479)

  20. If you were always going to get 60M cases, with 12M needing treatment, but only have capacity to treat 1M a month

    You lost me at “If”

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  21. The point is that you will have about 3% of all people over 65, or younger with certain conditions,who get this and damn few others. So there are TWO things you have to do: make sure the spike is below the capacity to treat AND reduce the number of high-risk individuals that contract the virus. Currently this is seen as a trade-off with the first path being favored. There are better approaches that aim for win-win.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  22. *The point is that you will have about 3% DIE of all people ….

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  23. I had to swallow my bile to watch CNBC this afternoon, but it looks like Henry Schein has a serological test available that uses a pinprick’s worth of blood, and takes 2-3 minutes to get results. We should be using this test in every hot spot in the continental United States to determine once and for all just where we are on the curve and what percentage of the populace is immune.

    Gryph (08c844)

  24. The point is that you will have about 3% of all people over 65, or younger with certain conditions,who get this and damn few others. So there are TWO things you have to do: make sure the spike is below the capacity to treat AND reduce the number of high-risk individuals that contract the virus. Currently this is seen as a trade-off with the first path being favored. There are better approaches that aim for win-win.

    3% Die, if you assume that CV-19 will only effect the same number of people as the annual flu, that Coronavirus is significantly more contagious than, but just use that as a baseline. That average is 60M, it could easily be double or triple that, easily. Roughly 20% of the infected show severe symptoms requiring hospital, 10% end up in ICU, ignore the outcome of dead CV-19 patients. CV cases with only as many infections as the flu, would consume 100% of the healthcare system, so there is no room left at the peak for anything else, i.e. no treatment for those over capacity. That just means that most of the folks that are getting treatment in a different year, are not, because there’s no bed, so they die because treatment is rationed. Again this is with zero deaths from CV-19 directly. So even indirectly it will kill thousands, then in a maxed out healthcare system (Italy) you also have the CV-19 patients actually dying a much higher rate, 10%.

    So, 20% of 60M are 12M hospitalized, 6M in ICU where we have 956k actual beds spread out all over the country, not just in population centers. Which is why when the hospital system, most of the excess load end up being fatalities. The average stay in ICU for a CV-19 patient is close to 25 days. So with no “flattening of the curve” most metro’s will have a very sharp peak when they peak, so up to 10% of the hospitalized end up dying, that’s a million CV-19 patients, plus the normal patients that didn’t’ get treatment and died.

    Now, if you flatten the curve, then we don’t exceed the capacity of healthcare, a la NYC/New Orleans/Northern Italy/Madrid. So the mortality rate stays in the range of well treated patients. That’s an order of magnitude improvement, 120k-200k, vs 5M+.

    That’s why social isolation flattens the peak, and trades it for time.

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827)

  25. I hope these treatments and vaccines work.

    DRJ (15874d)

  26. I had to swallow my bile to watch CNBC this afternoon, but it looks like Henry Schein has a serological test available that uses a pinprick’s worth of blood, and takes 2-3 minutes to get results. We should be using this test in every hot spot in the continental United States to determine once and for all just where we are on the curve and what percentage of the populace is immune

    And we will have one of the tests available. That test was recently perfected, they can produce 50k a week, so after 7,000 weeks, we’ve tested the US. That’s quite a while. If we could test a million a week (we haven’t tested 1 million yet) that’s 350 weeks, 10M/35weeks. So we need to get to 30M-40M a week if you want to test the population in a reasonable time. Now really, you only need to test 70% of the population, so really only 20M or 30M a week.

    Now, how do you scale 50k a week to 20M? More test methodologies is one way, so you aren’t making 20M single widgets, you are using all assets available to assemble a capacity of 20M. That requires planning.

    Like always, figuring out the answer is only the first step, getting from that first step to being an actual solution is work, not magic. Your solutions generally are a 3 step process, Step 1) figure it out, Step 2) magic happens, Step 3) happiness. That second step is hard in a reality without magic.

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827)

  27. That is good news, Gryph. Thanks for the heads up.

    DRJ (15874d)

  28. I hope these treatments and vaccines work.

    Yes, DRJ. We are playing for time to actually have some of those.

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827)

  29. The point is that you will have about 3% of all people over 65, or younger with certain conditions,who get this and damn few others.

    I am sure that is true overall but in my area less than 30% are between 50-65. The rest are teens to 30, plus one infant.

    DRJ (15874d)

  30. Another treatment idea: the HOPE trial that uses nebulized heparin to coat the virus and an asthma medicine to break it up and prevent it from going into/damaging the lungs.

    DRJ (15874d)

  31. 27. It’s good news as far as it goes. Unfortunately, it looks to me like the CDC has little-to-no interesting in pursuing that line of investigation. I hope I’m wrong about that. For all the arguing that we do about science, this human factor seems the most insurmountable obstacle to me.

    Gryph (08c844)

  32. By the way, re my comment 30, only one patient who tested positive had a pre-existing condition. None of the younger victims had problems but most had traveled domestically.

    DRJ (15874d)

  33. The states will be interested.

    DRJ (15874d)

  34. Does anyone remember where Simon Jester linked to some experts he advised us to follow? If you remember where it is, please link it here. Thanks.

    Dana (4fb37f)

  35. Dana do you mean comment 17 in this thread?

    Dustin (928d9a)

  36. Oh there it is. Thanks, Dustin. I thought it was somewhere on weekend thread.

    Dana (4fb37f)

  37. I hope (and I’ll be praying) that all of these treatments prove to be effective.

    FYI… I’ve got a large freezer in my garage that I’ll be filling with corvus brachyrhynchos and I will be offering free samples of this tasty dish… dressed out, packed in dry ice, all any among you have to do is pay S&H and your tasty treat will arrive within 2 to 3 days.

    You are welcome!

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  38. Lol – I used to play internet poker with a fellow whose user name was Corvus.

    Your comment immediately brought his avatar to mind.

    harkin (0f4bb0)

  39. Hold off on buying that Chevy, DRJ:

    Ford to build 50,000 ventilators in 100 days

    Ford plans to make as many as 50,000 simple ventilators for coronavirus patients within 100 days and plans to continue producing 30,000 per month after that, the company announced Monday.

    The automaker said it will make the ventilators at its Rawsonville Components Plant in Ypsilanti, Michigan. The factory will be staffed by 500 United Auto Workers union members who have volunteered to work on the project, Ford said.

    The ventilator is currently being made by Florida-based Airon Corp. and has been licensed by GE Healthcare. Ford (F) has been working with GE Healthcare to help it increase its ventilator output.

    The Airon Model A-E ventilator that Ford will produce operates on air pressure alone and requires no electricity. Airon currently makes three of the ventilators per day at its factory in Melbourne, Florida. Ford’s plant will produce the ventilators around the clock with three shifts of workers, Ford said, and it will make 7,200 of the devices per week.

    Ford is also working with GE Healthcare to increase GE’s own production of its more advanced ventilators. It’s also working on designing a simplified GE Healthcare ventilator device that Ford could also produce.

    Dave (1bb933)

  40. Bored Lawyer (56c962) — 3/30/2020 @ 9:34 am

    This is a good idea. If accompanied by some sort of badge, armband, or something a person could wear to show they’ve recovered and can’t be a carrier it would also be helpful. People could always copy it so there would need to be some way to validate.

    This will be ignored and ridiculed for obvious reasons. Instead, we will just go with the plan where people self-report and we take their word for it.

    frosty (f27e97)

  41. What shape and color of badge? Pink triangle or yellow star? Good grief!

    nk (1d9030)

  42. Ford plans to make as many as 50,000 simple ventilators for coronavirus patients within 100 days and plans to continue producing 30,000 per month after that, the company announced Monday.</em

    Re: that last part, the automaker said it will eventually have the capacity to build 30,000 a month.

    Not that it necessarily will.

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  43. nk (1d9030) — 3/30/2020 @ 5:45 pm

    Should be obvious.
    A Purple Bonespur.

    Kishnevi (acea15)

  44. The men of the West were some of the best
    To draw fast and ride tall in the saddle.
    But there could also be found the occasional hound,
    Like Bonespur Drumpfelschnitzel Skeddaddle.
    A superfluous flack who’d stab all in the back
    And leave them up the creek with no paddle,
    An unsavory dude strapped for everything lewd,
    Was Bonespur Drumpfelschnitzel Skedaddle.

    nk (1d9030)

  45. @41 They’ve already used those. I’m not sure why you’d want to reuse them.

    frosty (f27e97)

  46. I place little stock in the FDA’s “approval”. They work for Trump, they’re catering to his bullsh!t, while fulfilling their bureaucratic duty to appear to be doing something. Two corbies with one stone.

    nk (1d9030)

  47. This is SO wonderful, from xkcd. Please share widely…unlike viruses!

    https://xkcd.com/2287/

    Simon Jester (6067ca)

  48. Thank you, Simon. I will!

    nk (1d9030)

  49. That is good! Sending it on to family, thx!

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  50. I will never look at pasta in quite the same way.

    Simon Jester (6067ca)

  51. I found Thomas bagels at my local Jewel this past Sunday. Plus a fully-stocked shelf of Spam. In the afternoon! Suppliers are catching up. Ah, capitalism!

    nk (1d9030)

  52. Or as DCSCA might say: Reagonomics!

    nk (1d9030)

  53. Don’t forget that the whole time those viruses are getting roadblocked, enough people made the decision to forego maximum isolation and braved infection to make sure we got the medical care, food and other everyday needs to make the lockdown bearable.

    Lotsa people busting their humps right now who are probably nervous as heck they’re going to get a bad roll of the dice and get seriously ill, or even worse bring it home to their families.

    There are a lot of heroes out there right now and almost all of them will not get near enough recognition.

    They’re keeping us afloat.
    _

    harkin (0f4bb0)

  54. Well said, harkin!

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  55. Thank you for the Microbe podcast link, Simon Jester.

    DRJ (15874d)

  56. Trump to Governors: I’d Like You to Do Us a Favor, Though

    Once again, the president is using aid to extort re-election help.

    […]

    True, Trump is not demanding that governors investigate Joe Biden in exchange for federal help. But he’s strongly suggested that if governors speak candidly about his monumental incompetence, he’ll penalize them and their states as they struggle to contain the coronavirus. Once again, he’s using his control of vital aid to extort assistance with his re-election.

    “There are a lot of parallels between the president’s behavior now and during the whole Ukraine scandal,” Representative Adam Schiff, the California Democrat who led Trump’s impeachment prosecution, told me. “Certainly the most apparent is his demand that the governors basically pay fealty to him, praise him, or they’ll suffer consequences.”

    At a news conference last week, Trump said that he had instructed Vice President Mike Pence, whom he has placed in charge of the coronavirus response, not to call the governors of some blue states where the pandemic is raging. “I say: ‘Mike, don’t call the governor of Washington. You’re wasting your time with him. Don’t call the woman in Michigan,’” he said, adding, “If they don’t treat you right, I don’t call.”

    “The woman in Michigan,” of course, is Gov. Gretchen Whitmer, whose state has one of the nation’s most brutal coronavirus outbreaks. Trump’s contempt for Whitmer isn’t surprising, given his well-documented disdain for female leaders. As he weighed a federal disaster declaration for Michigan, he told Sean Hannity, “We’ve had a big problem with the young, a woman governor from — you know who I’m talking about — from Michigan. We can’t — we don’t like to see the complaints.”

    […]

    “I don’t think anyone was that surprised when he was as vindictive as he was after the trial in firing people and having them marched out of the White House, and I don’t think anybody can be all that surprised now,” Schiff said of Trump. “Dismayed, horrified, appalled, yes. Their worst fears realized once again, yes. Surprised, probably not.”

    Republican senators knew who Trump was and they refused to remove him. Now we’re all, as the president said of the former ambassador Marie Yovanovitch, going to go through some things.

    Dave (1bb933)

  57. “It’s baked in, we knew what he’s like when we elected him” in 9 … 8 … 7 …

    nk (1d9030)

  58. #57

    You keep scoring those points, man, because that’s what the country needs. That’s sort of baked into your cake, right?

    Estarcatus (46cb3f)

  59. Estarcatus is right. If the president threatens to withhold aid from states whose governors criticize him, we should all just praise him. Because that’s what the country needs.

    Dave (1bb933)

  60. Trump is not necessary to anything.

    nk (1d9030)

  61. Let’s build statues like the Iraqis did for their president in every state that needs ventilators. The biggest statue gets the best ventilators! It’s called patriotism.

    Dustin (928d9a)

  62. Republican senators knew who Trump was and they refused to remove him. Now we’re all, as the president said of the former ambassador Marie Yovanovitch, going to go through some things.

    This is a very good point.

    Dustin (928d9a)

  63. Something tells me after this vaccine is developed (knock wood), the world may need to develop more at an increased rate:
    _

    From Bill Gertz at The Washington Times:

    “ Mr. Tian works for the office of decontamination and biological disease vector prevention and control within the Wuhan CDC. According to a May 2017 report by the Wuhan Evening News, Mr. Tian has gathered thousands of bats for research work on bat viruses since 2012.

    “Bats have a large number of unknown viruses on their bodies,” he said. “The more thorough our research on bats is, the better it will be for human health.”

    The researcher also has gathered viruses from ticks, mice and wasps.

    After the incident exposing him to bat urine, Mr. Tian said, he kept a safe distance from his wife. “As long as I am not getting sick during the incubation period of 14 days, I can be lucky to get away with it,” he said.

    The Wuhan report said the collection of research samples was difficult, dangerous and hard to fund.

    Shenzhen News, a publication of the Guangdong Communist Youth League, described in December how Mr. Tian shuttled through caves and jungles looking for viruses in bats and ticks, called “vector organisms,” in the quest to develop vaccines. The report said the nearly 2,000 viruses discovered in China over the past 12 years nearly doubled the total number of known viruses.“

    https://m.washingtontimes.com/news/2020/mar/30/china-researchers-isolated-bat-coronaviruses-near-/
    __

    harkin (b64479)

  64. From what I remember about epidemiology in my undergraduate studies as a biology major, which admittedly was forty years ago, I don’t think this is the way to go about developing a vaccine. Hydroxychloroquine sulfate or phosphate may show some promise, but at this point that’s only a high hope. Perhaps a vaccine can be developed from experiments performed with these drugs, but until proven effective, it’s just wishful thinking, a shot in the dark. And a vaccine is not a cure.

    What scientists and medical professionals need to be doing is studying the actual virus itself. Apparently, novel coronavirus is a mutant variation of SARS virus, so a good place to start would be looing into studies, medical files and lab results from experiments performed during that outbreak for guidance. Still, the focus must be on this virus, in an attempt to develop effective treatment.

    A virus cannot be killed, because it is not a living organism, which is why influenza returns seasonally every year. There are vaccines and treatments for the flu, but it keeps coming back, killing thousands annually. No doubt coronavirus will do the same, given that it has already spread around the globe.

    However, what is most concerning is government action or inaction up to and during this pandemic.

    https://theweek.com/articles/904946/trumps-message-blue-states-battling-coronavirus-drop-dead

    Disbanding the panel for the study of pandemic disease and bio-attack was stupid. Obama created the panel as a group of specialists within the NSC when he saw what was happening during the Ebola outbreak in Africa, in the mid-1980s. He thought, we need to start preparing now for the event if something like that happens here. Trump dismantled the panel, only because it was Obama’s idea. That was petty and pretentious.

    Imposing tariffs on medical supplies was even more stupid. Because most medical supplies and equipment are manufactured in China, Trump wanted to punish them for their trade practices, so he imposed the tariffs, claiming China would be paying the increased taxes. Of course, in reality, American doctors and hospitals are paying the taxes. The result was the disruption of supply chains and a limitation on the availability of needed medical supplies and equipment in the US. This inevitably weakened the medical community’s ability to respond in the event of an outbreak, which is exactly what is happening now. It also impedes the medical community’s ability to conduct research and perform tests and experiments in the attempt to combat the pandemic, meaning the development of a vaccine and treatments is farther off than it would be otherwise. That was ignorant and unconscionable.

    Now, Trump is playing favorites with the distribution of aid. Florida gets all the supplies it asks for and more, while New York and New Jersey, where the virus is more heavily concentrated, only get a piddling of what they ask for. He’s not taking phone calls from blue state governors, nor is he making any attempt whatsoever to unify and comfort the country or work with the states to coordinate a national response. He’s ignoring cities and states where the outbreak is most severe, just because they didn’t vote for him. That is cruel and vindictive. It’s also inept and incompetent.

    People are getting sick and dying, no matter who they voted for. But Trump doesn’t seem to understand or care. Lack of empathy is one of the defining characters of a malignant narcissist. This man-child wannabe-king is basically saying to all of America, praise me, kiss my ring, and you’ll get your supplies. What a buffoon.

    Gawain's Ghost (b25cd1)

  65. Disbanding the panel for the study of pandemic disease and bio-attack was stupid. Obama created the panel as a group of specialists within the NSC when he saw what was happening during the Ebola outbreak in Africa, in the mid-1980s. He thought, we need to start preparing now for the event if something like that happens here. Trump dismantled the panel, only because it was Obama’s idea. That was petty and pretentious.

    Isn’t this what the CDC was invented for? The WHO also exists for this purpose. Creating a redundant group inside the National Security Council, looks like a group with unchecked power, but zero transparency, and accountability.

    Let’s not lose sight of the fact, the reason US is behind in testing, is because bureaucracies in place, screwed the pooch on corona virus. They lied to the President about the speed at which they could get testing up to speed. Losing another week to 10 days, until the President had enough and got the Private sector involved and ordered the FDA to get the hell out of the way let people do their jobs for the betterment of the people.

    Iowan2 (bbb95d)

  66. 65 – Gawain’s Ghost (b25cd1) — 3/31/2020 @ 4:47 am

    From what I remember about epidemiology in my undergraduate studies as a biology major, which admittedly was forty years ago, I don’t think this is the way to go about developing a vaccine. Hydroxychloroquine sulfate or phosphate may show some promise, but at this point that’s only a high hope. Perhaps a vaccine can be developed from experiments performed with these drugs, but until proven effective, it’s just wishful thinking, a shot in the dark. And a vaccine is not a cure.

    There is promising work being done to skip the step of the development of the vaccine and manufacture the antibodies directly. This video explains how it’s being done:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvfulLdrND0

    What scientists and medical professionals need to be doing is studying the actual virus itself. Apparently, novel coronavirus is a mutant variation of SARS virus, so a good place to start would be looing into studies, medical files and lab results from experiments performed during that outbreak for guidance. Still, the focus must be on this virus, in an attempt to develop effective treatment.

    Dude, there are thousands of scientists studying the actual virus. If you watch the cnbc video interview above, you’ll see Distributed Bio leveraged studies and work done on SARS in 2002.

    Mo Hawk (6c01b3)

  67. The one who stood in the way was Der Drumpfelschnitzel and he is still part of the problem not part of the solution.

    nk (1d9030)

  68. Let’s not lose sight of the fact, the reason US is behind in testing, is because bureaucracies in place, screwed the pooch on corona virus. They lied to the President about the speed at which they could get testing up to speed. Losing another week to 10 days, until the President had enough and got the Private sector involved and ordered the FDA to get the hell out of the way let people do their jobs for the betterment of the people.

    Iowan2 (bbb95d) — 3/31/2020 @ 5:24 am

    The reason we’re behind in testing is that the there was a quality issue on tests we made. This issue wasn’t found until we tried to use them.

    Had we started using them sooner we would have found to problem sooner.

    Even when we found out there was a problem we didn’t prioritize getting more tests and we still don’t have a timeline on when we will be able to test aggressively enough to change our containment plans.

    President Trump’s CDC screwed this up.
    President Trump’s Pandemic response team (Structured however he wants them) screwed this up.
    President Trump screwed this up personally.

    Everyone that screwed this up works for him and the steps he took personally for 2 months were wrong.

    Time123 (69b2fc)

  69. 69. And the reason there was a quality issue on these tests was that they were based on sequencing when we should have been concentrating on serological testing. It’s not so much a matter of “aggressive” testing as it is testing for the right thing.

    Gryph (08c844)

  70. @70, I meant by aggressive I meant a wide spread testing plan to help identify people who have it/have had it.

    Time123 (69b2fc)

  71. The fish rots from the head down. If the head cares only, and only, and also only, and furthermore only, about doing good to himself and evil to his enemies, then so will his underlings. That’s why the lack of preparedeness, the lack of PPE, the lack of ventilators, the lack of screening travelers, the lack of widespread testing.

    nk (1d9030)

  72. NK, You ever work for a boss that really cared about something. Not in the ‘save the world sense’ but in the “they boss will skin them if this blows up sense”? I have, every report out was a deep dive. Every question that couldn’t be answered was a urgent assignment. Every time we learned something late it was a conversation about how we missed it and what could have been done to fine it sooner and what else is waiting in the weeds for us.

    Time123 (80b471)

  73. 71. Apologies, Time. I’m even starting to *feel* a little pedantic here, but the distinction is an important one. It’s very possible that if there are people out there who are immune but never had symptoms, a lot of the pretext for locking people in their homes goes right out the window.

    Gryph (08c844)

  74. This is interesting.

    https://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2020/03/30/covid-19_crisis_makes_reformers_all_in_for_vote-by-mail_142808.html

    Hey, I’m all for Vote-at-Home, but my mother doesn’t think it will work. How do you know who’s voting? she asks. Good question. But I told her that several states already have mail-in ballots automatically sent to all registered voters, and those that do have higher turn-out than those that don’t. You can already vote by mail, she said. All you have to is go down to the county clerk and request a mail-in ballot. Yeah, but I don’t want to have to that for every election. She just shook her head, said it was a stupid idea, and wandered back upstairs.

    Mo Hawk, yeah I figured as much, I was just making conversation, but no, I didn’t watch the clip. Epidemiologists are very serious about their work and extremely thorough in their research, because they know the gravity of the situation.

    Anyway, here is a good article on why the shutdown should be kept in place until June.

    https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/28/opinion/coronavirus-economy.html

    Studies on the 1918 flu epidemic show that cities which closed non-essential businesses, practiced home confinement and social distancing for four to six weeks, experienced fewer deaths and more rapid economic recovery after the outbreak subsided than cities that did not. It’s probably the best way to ensure the economy is able to return to growth and prosperity after this pandemic burns itself out.

    The most important thing now is stop the spread of the virus. Any return to normalcy is months away. If we try to rush, it will only prolong the outbreak, resulting in more infections, deaths and economic damage.

    Gawain's Ghost (b25cd1)

  75. 75. “If we try to rush, it will only prolong the outbreak.” That’s funny you should mention that, GG. Even the government “experts” seem to agree that “flattening the curve” will in fact prolong the outbreak, even as it (supposedly) keeps the actual number of actual cases at a manageable level. Can we dispense with that twaddle now, please?

    Gryph (08c844)

  76. That’s exactly right, Time123. If Trump had organized a coordinated rapid response after the first coronavirus death in the US, we’d be much farther along in dealing with this outbreak than we are now. Instead, he stupidly dismissed the threat, and now it’s out of control.

    Gawain's Ghost (b25cd1)

  77. Simon Jester’s link includes an interview last Friday with a doctor treating hospitalized coronavirus patients in New York. He had a lot of information and insight. They are trying several approaches with some success. Unfortunately, I think he also said the hydroxychloroquine/zpak treatment did not work on their patients.

    Gawain’s Ghost, they are studying the virus at UT, and IMO making giant leaps in a short time.

    DRJ (15874d)

  78. Twaddle? What worked in 1918 will work in 2020. It’s a question of doing what’s best to stop the spread of this virus.

    Gawain's Ghost (b25cd1)

  79. 79. Okay. You keep telling yourself that. Social distancing not only won’t stop the virus but as soon as we stop social distancing, the virus could come roaring back worse than it was before. Not even the “experts” are saying that social distancing will stop it.

    Gryph (08c844)

  80. I know that, DRJ. I just didn’t phrase my comment properly.

    Gawain's Ghost (b25cd1)

  81. This expert thinks social distancing is a must to beat Covid-19.

    DRJ (15874d)

  82. I should have realized you are on top of that, GG.

    DRJ (15874d)

  83. The local demographics for Covid-19 cases in my area are in line with Texas demographics. Most cases occur in the 40-60 age groups, then 20-40, then 60-70. The gender division is close to 50-50. These are different than what has been reported for national and international demographics.

    DRJ (15874d)

  84. 82. Whether social distancing is beneficial to efforts to combat CoViD-19 is another matter altogether. It won’t shorten the amount of time we have to deal with it. It will prolong it, and will thusly prolong the economic damage.

    Gryph (08c844)

  85. NK, You ever work for a boss that really cared about something.

    Actually, Time123, Trump reminds me very much of my first boss. A money-hungry blowhard and cheat, full of bluster and prejudice, who actually told me that if I could find a way to overcharge the customers I would get a commission on top of my wages. I did not stay there long. Many years later, I learned that he (my boss) started out as a cabdriver/pimp. He kept “girls” that he would deliver to clients or drive clients too.

    nk (1d9030)

  86. Even though they can be infected, it seems clear that young people are less likely to die from the virus. Why is that? Because they are generally healthier, or their immune systems do not overreact (better immune regulation/modulation), or something else?

    DRJ (15874d)

  87. “ Even the government “experts” seem to agree that “flattening the curve” will in fact prolong the outbreak,”

    Flattening the curve by definition prolongs the outbreak. If you throttle back the infection rate you (hopefully) make it so those on the front lines treating the infected will be less overwhelmed, and you buy time to collect data.
    _

    I’ve been thinking too about the ‘second wave’ that is supposed to hit in Sept. if we can determine who was infected, even if they didn’t know it, it will greatly aid in determining who should maintain social distance and who has more leeway to help.

    That assumes you cant be re-infected once you get it. If that is not the case than it’s going to get real bad.
    _

    harkin (b64479)

  88. Maybe so, Gryph, or maybe not.

    DRJ (15874d)

  89. The National Biocontainment Unit at the University of Nebraska had the first trial of Remdesivir that was used on the Diamond Princess evacuees. I don’t think they had any fatalities, although Nebraska has had three deaths from Nebraska residents. I hope they release the Remdesivir results soon.

    DRJ (15874d)

  90. “ Even though they can be infected, it seems clear that young people are less likely to die from the virus.
    Why is that? Because they are generally healthier, or their immune systems do not overreact (better immune regulation/modulation), or something else?”

    _

    For the very young this is a departure from most annual flus. Most flu/age mortality graphs are like a saddle with rises at both ends (younger and older). From the age/symptoms/death graphs on the Wuhan virus I’ve seen the very young so far are remarkably resilient. (No this doesn’t mean they can’t get infected and even die)
    _

    harkin (b64479)

  91. “If we try to rush, it will only prolong the outbreak.” That’s funny you should mention that, GG. Even the government “experts” seem to agree that “flattening the curve” will in fact prolong the outbreak, even as it (supposedly) keeps the actual number of actual cases at a manageable level. Can we dispense with that twaddle now, please?

    That’s just shows a vast lack of knowledge of what happens in an outbreak. Most deaths aren’t caused directly by the virus, they’re from lack of treatment, even simple remedial treatment, of the infected. If you “flatten the curve” below the peak ability to treat the patients, you only get the most vulnerable dying. If don’t flatten the curve, the mortality rate for those unable to get treatment die off at a 10X rate, e.g. Italy.

    But of course, this has been explained to you many, many times. It’s quite a simple concept.

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827)

  92. harkin,

    It does look that way here, sort of, although I take the Chinese data with a grain of salt. I think many doctors mean well but I am sure there are censors.

    But it does appear this is different for young people than normal flu viruses. They seem to be getting the virus like everyone else, but they recover better and/or the virus doesn’t impact them as much. Why?

    DRJ (15874d)

  93. This?

    Menachery found the older mice’s fatalities were strongly related to not just weakness in their immune systems but also a “disregulation” that caused their immune systems to overreact to the SARS coronavirus. That’s similar to how humans die of infections from the new coronavirus, called SARS-CoV-2.

    “It’s the aggressive response from their immune system that is damaging them, even more than the infection itself,” Menachery said. “It’s like police responding to a misdemeanor with a SWAT team crashing through the door.”

    The question he and others have still struggled to answer, however, is why the baby mice escape unscathed.

    Some experts have floated a theory that because children are so heavily exposed to four other mild coronaviruses, which circulate every year and cause the common cold, that may give kids some kind of strengthened immunity. But many have doubts about that argument because adults catch the common cold coronaviruses too, and the immune systems of children — especially under the age of five — are underdeveloped, which should make them more vulnerable, not less.

    “If it bears out that kids are less prone to infection, then I suspect there’s something more mechanical than immunological going on,” said Esper, the pediatric infection expert. “Something about the receptors in children’s bodies or their lungs is interfering with the virus’ ability to attach itself.”

    better immune regulation or antibodies that block the virus from attaching in their lungs.

    DRJ (15874d)

  94. Another thought re China: It now seems there were far more deaths than China admitted. If so, it probably overwhelmed the hospitals and led to deaths. Maybe the increased deaths in the elderly were due to the virus being more lethal to them, or maybe there was a choice to save younger adults.

    DRJ (15874d)

  95. And let the elderly die.

    DRJ (15874d)

  96. “ harkin, It does look that way here, sort of, although I take the Chinese data with a grain of salt. I think many doctors mean well but I am sure there are censors.”

    I said ‘graphs on the Wuhan virus’, not ‘graphs from Wuhan’.

    The ‘Wuhan virus’ is from Wuhan. The graphs I’ve seen were from different agencies in the US, Italy, Germany etc.
    __

    harkin (b64479)

  97. Interesting link:
    https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMe2002387


    In another article in the Journal, Guan et al.5 report mortality of 1.4% among 1099 patients with laboratory-confirmed Covid-19; these patients had a wide spectrum of disease severity.

    If one assumes that the number of asymptomatic or minimally symptomatic cases is several times as high as the number of reported cases, the case fatality rate may be considerably less than 1%. This suggests that the overall clinical consequences of Covid-19 may ultimately be more akin to those of a severe seasonal influenza (which has a case fatality rate of approximately 0.1%) or a pandemic influenza (similar to those in 1957 and 1968) rather than a disease similar to SARS or MERS, which have had case fatality rates of 9 to 10% and 36%, respectively.2

    whembly (c30c83)

  98. Here is a good roundtable discussion on how the government at all levels utterly failed in its initial response to coronavirus (a little over an hour).

    https://reason.com/video/how-the-government-bungled-the-coronavirus-response/

    One of the worst problems was with the testing launch. The way it works is the CDC develops guidelines, then private companies, approved by the FDA, manufacture and distribute test kits. There are several companies that are very good at this. In Feburary, these companies said, hey, we have test kits that work and can begin manufacturing and distribution immediately, and the FDA told them no. Then the test kits developed under CDC guidelines didn’t work and had to be recalled. Effective test kits weren’t released until the last week or so. That allowed the virus to spread undetected for three months, hence the severity of the outbreak. Now, the US has more confirmed cases of infection than any country in the world.

    Gawain's Ghost (b25cd1)

  99. harkin, I understand this pattern is showing up everywhere. My point was I don’t trust the Chinese part of the data.

    DRJ (15874d)

  100. Chris Cuomo has the virus.

    DRJ (15874d)

  101. harkin, I understand this pattern is showing up everywhere. My point was I don’t trust the Chinese part of the data.
    _

    Fair enough and me neither but since I didn’t mention Chinese data I have no idea why you did.
    _

    harkin (b64479)

  102. DRJ, Trump and the State Department toned down their criticism of China and stopped using the term Wuhan virus, after Xi praised Trump for his response to the outbreak in the US.

    https://www.thedailybeast.com/trump-toned-it-down-on-chinaafter-xi-sucked-up-to-him?ref=home

    I think the term is a misnomer. Yes, Wuhan was the epicenter for the pandemic, but that doesn’t mean it originated there. In fact, there’s no evidence that it did. We simply do not know. If it originated elsewhere, and Wuhan happened to be where it broke out, that would explain its rapid growth into a pandemic. The virus could have been spreading in multiple areas undetected throughout the region, possibly into other countries, before the Wuhan outbreak.

    Gawain's Ghost (b25cd1)

  103. Because I’m thinking about the Chinese data and studies. It was the beginning so they have more information and most of the things we see have some basis in data, studies or information we got from China. If we see reports that Italy has high death rates in the elderly, we think ‘like China’ or that chloroquine worked in France, it is ‘like China.’ The Chinese data, studies and results are driving a lot if what we think about this virus.

    DRJ (15874d)

  104. It’s possible that the virus itself is changing, reducing COVID-19 severity in some places and increasing it in others (like Italy, Spain, and the New York area).

    DRJ (15874d)

  105. 103… it’s the Chinese Coronavirus.

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  106. They’ve stopped using that term too.

    Gawain's Ghost (b25cd1)

  107. 107… I haven’t.

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  108. Ebola river, Lyme CT, Middle East respiratory syndrome (MERS), West Nile virus, Rocky Mtn spotted fever.

    When they change these names I’ll start following CCP directives.
    _

    harkin (b64479)

  109. CH & Harkin, I know we disagree about a lot but I’m curious what you think about the DailyBeast article that Trump is backing off on blaming China because of flattery fromXi? Trump has clearly backed off that story line, do you attribute it to something else? Not that big a deal in the big picture?

    Time123 (80b471)

  110. I thought even the Chinese acknowledged this started in the Hubei province, until it became a political issue and they started claiming the US Army brought it to China.

    DRJ (15874d)

  111. I agree there could have been precursors or earlier versions of the virus before it jumped species or mutated. It could have been percolating in animals or humans for months or years. But the bad stuff seems to have started in Wujan/Hubei.

    DRJ (15874d)

  112. More questions about the Chinese trials of chloroquine.

    DRJ (15874d)

  113. CH & Harkin, I know we disagree about a lot but I’m curious what you think about the DailyBeast article that Trump is backing off on blaming China because of flattery fromXi?”

    I wouldn’t doubt it in the least, Trump loves flattery.
    __ _

    Since we’re talking articles, how do you feel about this one:

    “ According to The Free Beacon, the woman’s most recent donations were sent in late February to a Democratic PAC called the 314 Action Fund, which bills itself as the “pro-science resistance.”

    The PAC has repeatedly blasted the Trump administration’s response to the coronavirus pandemic and even highlighted the couple’s case on Facebook to slam the White House for “throwing its approval behind an experimental case before it’s time.”

    According to Federal Election Commission records, over the past few years, Wanda has also donated to Hillary Clinton, the Democratic Congressional Campaign Committee, and EMILY’s List, a liberal group that aims to elect pro-choice female candidates.

    Wanda’s initial comments blaming Trump spurred numerous reports in the media suggesting that Trump was to blame for her husband’s death in numerous reports. Many in the media also suggested that the couple were ignorant Trump supporters who were blindly led astray by their leader. Prominent Never-Trumpers like George Conway and Rick Wilson took to Twitter to accuse the president of being somehow complicit. “

    Woman Who Ingested Fish Tank Cleaner Is Prolific Donor to Democratic Causes

    https://freebeacon.com/latest-news/woman-who-ingested-fish-tank-cleaner-was-prolific-donor-to-democratic-causes/
    _

    I do recall hearing these people called a few different variations of ‘idiot Trump supporters’
    _

    harkin (b64479)

  114. In Simon’s Microbe link, there is an interview with Dr Denison of Vanderbilt. He says they don’t know how this is transmitted but they speculate it attaches through the nose (or throat) and then to the lungs, followed by a cascade of problems similar to pouring gasoline on a fire. He, too, thinks the body’s response is the problem, although even asymptomatic cases can result in lung damage (per China).

    Dr Denison thinks this virus is not mutating because it doesn’t need to, so it is stable. It may or may not be seasonal, but viruses aren’t typically seasonal. He says they are migratory, which us why we see them come and go over time. This virus is migrating very fast.

    Most or maybe all viruses are infectious and live on surfaces for time. Measles and chickenpox do, too. Dr Denison related it to how we can smell cigarette smoke after a smoker leaves. The smell is still there, but we can’t smell this.

    Dr Denison agrees this doesn’t impact children as dramatically, but that was also true with SARS. He thinks both COVID-19 and SARS target people in late teens and up. He thinks it is a falsehood that it targets the elderly more. Like what I see in Texas, Dr Denison said Tennessee has seen this target 40-50 the most.

    More later.

    DRJ (15874d)

  115. She said she listened to Trump. She should have known better.

    DRJ (15874d)

  116. Listening to Dr Denison talk about how stable this virus is, it may be it will continue until it runs out of hosts. If so, that makes a vaccine imperative.

    DRJ (15874d)

  117. Gawain’s Ghost (b25cd1) — 3/31/2020 @ 9:23 am

    I think the term is a misnomer. Yes, Wuhan was the epicenter for the pandemic, but that doesn’t mean it originated there. In fact, there’s no evidence that it did. We simply do not know.

    I heard from a friend who has a cousin whose sister works at 31 flavors. She saw Ferris and he said this was originally an elf virus. I crossed over and became human transmittable right before Christmas so everyone’s gifts were contaminated. Santa wanted to cover it up but eventually fessed up to Trump. The elves had been targeted by the Easter Bunny who didn’t anticipate the human cross over. The original Easter date for the US getting out of lockdown was because EB was going to release a vaccine. The talks broke down. Even though the Easter Bunny is an evil villain the breakdown was Trump’s fault. The hotspot in Wuhan is related to a North Pole/Wuhan joint venture. It turns out the elves are migrant workers and after the Christmas rush, they took some factory positions in Wuhan.

    frosty (f27e97)

  118. Hello taxpayers,
    Sometimes this year, we taxpayers will again receive another economic stimulus payment.
    It is indeed a very exciting program, and I’ll explain it by using a Q&A format:
    Q: What is an Economic Stimulus payment?
    A: It is money that the federal government will send to taxpayers.
    Q: Where will the government get this money?
    A: From taxpayers.
    Q: So the government is giving me back my own money?
    A: Only a smidgen of it.
    Q: What is the purpose of this payment?
    A: The plan is for you to use the money to purchase a high definition television set, a new iPad, or a new SUV, thus stimulating the economy.
    Q: Isn’t that stimulating the economy of China?
    A: Shut up.

    Below is some helpful advice on how to best help the U. S. Economy with and your stimulus check wisely:
    * If you spend the stimulus money at Walmart the money will go to China or Sri Lanka.
    * if you spend it on gasoline, your money goes to the Arabs.
    * if you purchase a computer, it goes to India, Taiwan or China.
    * if you purchase fruits and vegetables, it will go to Mexico, Honduras, and Guatemala.
    * if you buy an efficient car, it will go to Japan or Korea.
    * if you purchase useless stuff, it goes to Taiwan.
    * if you pay your credit card off, or buy stock, it will go to the management bonuses and they will hide it offshore.

    Instead, keep the money in America by:
    (1) Spending it at a yard sale, or
    (2) Go to a ballgame, or (3) Spend it on prostitutes, or
    (4) Beer, or
    (5) Tattoos
    (These are the only American businesses still operating in the U.S.)

    CONCLUSION: Go to a ballgame with a tattooed prostitute that you met at a yard sale and drink beer all day. No need to thank me, I’m just glad I could be of help.

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  119. She said she listened to Trump. She should have known better“
    _

    Some take this at face value.

    Knowing more of the facts, I really don’t see how anyone could come to this conclusion with any amount of certainty.

    Calling them ‘idiot Trump supporters’ even more so. Anyone saying that now looks dishonest or gullible.

    The funniest thing about this is that if these fools had done this and blamed a Democrat, the msm would have put them thru the social media and background sifter so fast we would have known about numerous and recent donations to the opposition political party within 24 hours.
    _

    harkin (b64479)

  120. Harkin, She sounds dumb. Which probably explains why she and her husband acted off of information from Trump.

    Time123 (69b2fc)

  121. CH, Buy a Chevy Crew Cab. They’re engineered in Detroit and made in Ft. Wayne Indiana. That’s 2 hours up the road from Kokomo where GM is making ventilators.

    Time123 (69b2fc)

  122. @122, Snark aside here’s what I think.

    -She & Her Husband were probably scared and desperate.
    -They were also foolish (at best) to ingest fish tank cleaner just because it’s the same chemical name as a medicine Trump touted as a potentially miracle answer Covid-19.
    -In times of crises people look to the president for information and assume it will be accurate. Trump is failing in this.
    -The people eating fish take cleaner are a smaller problem than the people hoarding the actual medicine ‘just in case’ it turns out to be useful. These people are creating a shortage that impacts those who legitimately need it.
    -You should probably seek out people that a called her an idiot Trump supporter and show the the article. I know I’ve never refereed to her in that way.

    Time123 (80b471)

  123. I am sure that is true overall but in my area less than 30% are between 50-65. The rest are teens to 30, plus one infant.

    Sorry, I butchered by original comment and apparently didn’t correct is adequately.

    I assume that anyone can catch this, and the odds are identical given identical behavior. I also assume that those with highest risk will avoid this like the plague, and others will respect that desire.

    Severity and death are highly correlated with age and/or medical condition. While some people outside these risk groups DO get a severe case, statistics show CLEARLY that this is rare (less than 0.1%). If the high-risk groups isolate, and are not “helped” in their isolation by well-meaning young fools, then they have a greatly reduced chance of contracting the virus for the length of their isolation. Note that I do not suggest “social distancing” for high-risk individuals — isolation as much as is practical is the gold standard here.

    If the oldsters/HIV+/chemo/transplant/etc are isolating and not getting the virus, then there are plenty of beds for the bad-luck youngsters who get a severe case. Once the virus burns through the general population, people can go back to work, the oldsters/HIV+/etc can come out of hiding, and we can have both a recovered economy AND fewer deaths.

    The only problem with this is if no immunity is acquired post-illness. But if that is true then the vaccine is hopeless and we are fracked every which-way.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  124. harkin (b64479) — 3/31/2020 @ 9:49 am

    Good point, harkin. It would take a true paradigm shift, not a social fad to end that practice. We live and die by labels because they can convey important information. But it depends on who is defining “important.”

    Consider pronouns: In matters where gender is important, labels such as “he” and “she” convey the truth of biology. Where gender is unimportant then those labels fade. “Aviatrix” fell out of fashion. What do we gain? What do we lose? It’s a Sowell trade-off. If this is a fad, it will fade into history.

    Once every place has the same people, the same weather, the same flora and fauna, and the same disease*, then geography will be unimportant. Until then, it is still “location, location, location.”

    * Is there an Athens cold?

    felipe (023cc9)

  125. 122… as she described the perfect day, where she’d made her husband’s favorite meal, it became clear: this incident sounds more like the woman used this as an opportunity to free herself from a heavily dependent partner.

    She prepared the aquarium cleaner cocktails, his much stronger than the weak one she imbibed.

    Murder??? Manslaughter??? Mans laughter???

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  126. Or leading contenders for the Darwin Award.

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  127. Murder??? Manslaughter??? Mans laughter???

    I see what you did there!

    Time123 (69b2fc)

  128. Trump is not necessary to anything.

    Trump’s sole value is as a place-holder.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  129. I agree with most of the points made in this article.

    https://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2020/03/31/time_for_a_second_opinion_142817.html

    We are overreacting out of paranoia and panic. This is true. And this virus may turn out to not have as high of a mortality rate than the flu, which killed 24,000 people this season. COVID-19 has only killed a little over 3,000 so far, and many of them were over 70. However, this pandemic has not yet run its course, and those numbers could go up substantially.

    I still believe the best course of action now is to close nonessential business, practice home confinement and social distancing. That’s what we’re doing here in the Rio Grande Valley, an area larger than several small states combined. At last report, there have been 38 confirmed cases, and 1 death.

    Hey, home confinement is nothing new to me. I’ve been working out of my home office for that last 15 years. When I’m not doing that, I’m inspecting vacant repossessed homes. I hardly ever meet anyone involved, except the locksmith for the initial inspection, maybe a contractor or two for bids on repairs. Other than that, I work on my own.

    I’ve never met or spoken on the phone with an asset manager. Very rarely do I meet or speak with a selling agent or buyer. Everything is done by email and fax. There’s no reason for me to go to the office, because I can do anything I need to do out of home.

    I’ve negotiated hundreds of real estate transactions that way. I once sold a repossessed ranch home on 5 acres outside of Weslaco to a guy in South Korea. Are you kidding me? He never personally saw the house, only pictures I sent him. Hey, all that is required is proof of cash or proof of financing, a signed written contract agreed to by the seller and approved by the title company. All done by email and fax. I’ll take the commission (listing and selling), about $5,000, for that, less than a week of work and only a few hours a day.

    Of course, if a prospective buyer calls me, I will gladly meet with him, her, or them if it’s a couple, to show the house, but that seldom happens. Buyers usually have their own agents, and he or she can easily show the house, because it’s on lockbox. When it does, I have to inform the buyer at first meeting that I cannot represent him, her or them as a agent. That’s by law. I have to clearly state that I am an agent of the seller and explain that it would be a conflict of interest if I were to represent both the buyer and the seller. I can say that I will fill out a contract at the buyer’ request, but I cannot offer any advice or opinion on real estate or say that the seller will accept any offer below list price. The buyer needs to contract with a selling agent, another realtor outside of this company, for advice and opinion on real estate. And I cannot tell him or her the seller will accept an offer below list price either.

    Make an offer. The seller will either accept, reject or negotiate. That’s the way it goes.

    Unfortunately, this pandemic is going to cause a serious downturn in our business. The summer months always exhibit the highest volume of sales. But this year, it doesn’t look like very many people are going to be on the market for a new home.

    Gawain's Ghost (b25cd1)

  130. Manslaughter??? Mans laughter??? – Colonel Haiku (2601c0) — 3/31/2020 @ 10:51 am

    That’s a good one!

    Margaret Dumont: He died in my arms..

    Groucho Marx: Then it was murder!

    felipe (023cc9)

  131. Fredo: “Luckily, we caught it early enough.”

    WTF does that mean? Since there is no recognized treatment other than “don’t go and infect others” (and you can do that anyway before and after you have symptoms), knowing that you have the virus does not help you fight it (other than not standing outside in a cold rain). It’s not cancer.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  132. they started claiming the US Army brought it to China.

    Maybe it was manufactured, but if so, it wasn’t by us.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  133. I think the term is a misnomer. Yes, Wuhan was the epicenter for the pandemic, but that doesn’t mean it originated there. In fact, there’s no evidence that it did. We simply do not know. If it originated elsewhere, and Wuhan happened to be where it broke out, that would explain its rapid growth into a pandemic. The virus could have been spreading in multiple areas undetected throughout the region, possibly into other countries, before the Wuhan outbreak.

    Gawain’s Ghost (b25cd1) — 3/31/2020 @ 9:23 am

    It’s the Wuhan virus because that is where it was discovered. Whether it came from the wet market, the biological lab or elsewhere, it doesn’t change where it was discovered. Look up the Spanish Flu sometime. Thanks.

    NJRob (4d595c)

  134. Oops Dumond, not Dumont.

    felipe (023cc9)

  135. Spanish Flu wasn’t called that because it originated in Spain. Spain was the first country to report truthfully on its spread, months after President Woodrow Wilson decided to keep a lid on the truth for the sake of wartime morale.

    Gryph (08c844)

  136. Suppose that the lock-down has really convinced high-risk individuals to isolate. If so, we might actually be seeing a higher proportion of hospital admissions being younger folks, since they would also be disproportionately exposed. The curve would ALSO be less peaky, since the hospitalized/exposed ratio would be much smaller.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  137. -She & Her Husband were probably scared and desperate.
    -They were also foolish (at best) to ingest fish tank cleaner just because it’s the same chemical name as a medicine Trump touted as a potentially miracle answer Covid-19.
    -In times of crises people look to the president for information and assume it will be accurate. Trump is failing in this.
    -The people eating fish take cleaner are a smaller problem than the people hoarding the actual medicine ‘just in case’ it turns out to be useful. These people are creating a shortage that impacts those who legitimately need it.
    -You should probably seek out people that a called her an idiot Trump supporter and show the the article. I know I’ve never refereed to her in that way.

    Time123 (80b471) — 3/31/2020 @ 10:49 am

    People who donate thousands of dollars to a group trying to undermine and defeat the President don’t tend to listen to him. Instead they tend to attack his words and claim malicious intent in every word and action.

    NJRob (4d595c)

  138. The exact origins are still unknown:

    Chinese government researchers isolated more than 2,000 new viruses, including deadly bat coronaviruses, and carried out scientific work on them just three miles from a wild animal market identified as the epicenter of the COVID-19 pandemic.

    Several Chinese state media outlets in recent months touted the virus research and lionized in particular a key researcher in Wuhan, Tian Junhua, as a leader in bat virus work.

    The coronavirus strain now infecting hundreds of thousands of people globally mutated from bats believed to have infected animals and people at a wild animal market in Wuhan. The exact origin of the virus, however, remains a mystery.

    Read the full report.

    Dana (4fb37f)

  139. Spanish Flu wasn’t called that because it originated in Spain. Spain was the first country to report truthfully on its spread, months after President Woodrow Wilson decided to keep a lid on the truth for the sake of wartime morale.

    Gryph (08c844) — 3/31/2020 @ 11:14 am

    I’m aware of that fact and you would’ve noticed that if you read my remarks carefully. Where a virus is reported is where it is named. Spain mentioned all of their cases while England did not, hence the name Spanish Flu.

    NJRob (4d595c)

  140. 141. I’m just saying, Rob, I think Wuhan Flu is perfectly appropriate for that reason alone.

    As for “the exact origin of the virus remain[ing] a mystery,” I’ve already floated a hypothesis that fits quite nicely with the known facts.

    Gryph (08c844)

  141. Trump is ecstatic about his rise in approval ratings, without noticing or pretending not to notice that other world leaders are seeing a rise in their approval ratings as well.

    https://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2020/03/31/from_wartime_prez_to_hit_show_star_trumps_backsliding_ways_142814.html

    He thinks this rise in approval ratings is an indication of how well he’s handling the coronavirus pandemic, especially after receiving flattering praise from Xi. But that is not the case.

    The entire federal government’s response to this outbreak was botched from the beginning. And it’s only getting worse.

    There is going to be huge increase in voter turnout this November. Then the voters will determine how well this president, administration and Congress have dealt with this pandemic. It could be apocalyptic.

    Gawain's Ghost (b25cd1)

  142. Dana (4fb37f) — 3/31/2020 @ 11:23 am

    The exact origin of the virus, however, remains a mystery.

    What is the value of this statement?

    The implication is that the virus originated somewhere else, didn’t cause an outbreak at the origin, migrated to Wuhan, and then caused an outbreak.

    It makes more sense that the virus jumped species in Wuhan but even if that happened somewhere else why is that important? It doesn’t excuse China for the initial reaction and cover-up. It doesn’t explain why they are accusing the US of biowarfare. It doesn’t explain the non-stop Chinese propaganda to spin this.

    frosty (f27e97)

  143. They were also foolish (at best) to ingest fish tank cleaner just because it’s the same chemical name as a medicine Trump touted as a potentially miracle answer Covid-19.“
    __

    Rather interesting behavior for people whose most recent political donation (just a month ago) was to:

    “a Democratic PAC called the 314 Action Fund, which bills itself as the “pro-science resistance.”

    I guess I’m the only one who thinks ‘resistance’ is ‘anti-Trump’ and ‘pro-science’ means ‘don’t eat aquarium cleaner’.

    There’s something fishy (pun intended) about this and the way the Never-Trumpers not only seized on it and beat it like a rented mule but now refuse to even discuss that claims Trump causing this idiot’s death may not be accurate.
    _

    harkin (b64479)

  144. As I read the various reports, etc., the first identified outbreak was in the Hubei Province of China, possibly in Wujan. The origin of the outbreak is unknown. The genomic research suggests it could have jumped from another species — the current frontrunners are the bat or the pangolin — or it could have mutated from another virus. It probably wasn’t engineered.

    DRJ (15874d)

  145. Well, this doesn’t sound good, coming from the epicenter in the US.

    https://www.thedailybeast.com/andrew-cuomo-says-coronavirus-more-dangerous-than-we-thought-as-ny-cases-jump-overnight?ref=home

    Gawain's Ghost (b25cd1)

  146. @ frosty,

    What is the value of this statement?

    The implication is that the virus originated somewhere else, didn’t cause an outbreak at the origin, migrated to Wuhan, and then caused an outbreak.

    It makes more sense that the virus jumped species in Wuhan but even if that happened somewhere else why is that important? It doesn’t excuse China for the initial reaction and cover-up. It doesn’t explain why they are accusing the US of biowarfare. It doesn’t explain the non-stop Chinese propaganda to spin this.

    I don’t think that’s what the implication is, frosty. Did you read the whole article? It will add context.

    Dana (4fb37f)

  147. harkin (b64479) — 3/31/2020 @ 12:27 pm

    There’s something fishy (pun intended) about this and the way the Never-Trumpers not only seized on it and beat it like a rented mule but now refuse to even discuss that claims Trump causing this idiot’s death may not be accurate.

    You say fishy. Some would say standard procedure. Tomato Potato.

    frosty (f27e97)

  148. 69. Everyone that screwed this up works for him and the steps he took personally for 2 months were wrong.

    You keep repeating the same talking point. Intentionally avoiding listing those specific specific steps that were wrong, or failed to take.

    Lets have that list. Show your work.

    Iowan2 (bbb95d)

  149. “As COVID-19 Ravages Globe, Innocent Viruses Fear Backlash”

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  150. Proximal origin of the causative virus

    : It is improbable that SARS-CoV-2 emerged through laboratory manipulation of a related SARS-CoV-like coronavirus. As noted above, the RBD of SARS-CoV-2 is optimized for binding to human ACE2 with an efficient solution different from those previously predicted7,11. Furthermore, if genetic manipulation had been performed, one of the several reverse-genetic systems available for betacoronaviruses would probably have been used19. However, the genetic data irrefutably show that SARS-CoV-2 is not derived from any previously used virus backbone20. Instead, we propose two scenarios that can plausibly explain the origin of SARS-CoV-2: (i) natural selection in an animal host before zoonotic transfer; and (ii) natural selection in humans following zoonotic transfer.

    Also, international team of scientists say the coronavirus may have jumped from animal to humans long before the first detection in China:

    Researchers from the United States, Britain and Australia looked at piles of data released by scientists around the world for clues about the virus’ evolutionary past, and found it might have made the jump from animal to humans long before the first detection in the central China city of Wuhan.

    Though there could be other possibilities, the scientists said the coronavirus carried a unique mutation that was not found in suspected animal hosts, but was likely to occur during repeated, small-cluster infections in humans.

    Dr Francis Collins, director of the US National Institute of Health, who was not involved in the research, said the study suggested a possible scenario in which the coronavirus crossed from animals into humans before it became capable of causing disease in people.

    “Then, as a result of gradual evolutionary changes over years or perhaps decades, the virus eventually gained the ability to spread from human to human and cause serious, often life-threatening disease,” he said in an article published on the institute’s website on Thursday.

    Dana (4fb37f)

  151. Lets have that list. Show your work.

    Being late is the WORST problem. Anything that Trump has done, just subtract 6 weeks. Lying about the impact of the virus for 6 weeks, also a problem. He’s lying about preparedness today.

    Anyone who needs a test can get one, today, yesterday, that was from 25 days ago. Small problem, anyone who needs a test cannot get one TODAY, or YESTERDAY.

    Yeah, yeah, yeah, it’s not Trump, it’s other people’s problem, the buck stops over there, with that other guy.

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827)

  152. Dana (4fb37f) — 3/31/2020 @ 12:29 pm

    A quick read of the article doesn’t paint a good picture for China in general. It sounds like there’s ongoing “research” into bat viruses that is criminally negligent, i.e. intentionally searching for viruses without taking precautions to prevent spread. It sounds like they are reopening the wet markets. I haven’t had the time to read the linked report from China.

    But my question still stands. What is the value in saying we don’t know the exact origin? What is trying to be communicated?

    frosty (f27e97)

  153. 153. The artificial attenuation of viral material is not done by genetic sequencing. It’s basically a forced and repetitive natural selection that takes place at sub-physiological temperatures to slow down a virus’ reproduction rate to near-zero. If the level of attenuation in SARS-COV-2 is possible to see naturally, this strain represents the first time it’s ever been seen.

    Gryph (08c844)

  154. 69. Everyone that screwed this up works for him and the steps he took personally for 2 months were wrong.

    You keep repeating the same talking point. Intentionally avoiding listing those specific specific steps that were wrong, or failed to take.

    Lets have that list. Show your work.

    Specifically?

    In January and Feb he did almost nothing to address this.
    In February and March his actions were hap hazard and poorly executed. (see the terrible job with the EU travel ban and contrast it with the decent job on the Canada travel ban.)
    He didn’t make it a priority of his administration to develop a robust plan to address this and start confirming it would work.
    He didn’t make it a priority of his administration to have resources in place in case they were needed.
    He hasn’t provided consistent leadership on what we need to do to address this, up until last week he was signaling that we’d be done with social distancing by Easter.
    He hasn’t provided leadership to bring the states together as a single team, in fact has been attacking and ignoring states based on if he likes their governor or not.
    He hasn’t provided a clear plan on filling the resource gap nor has his administration been leading on filling those gaps even now.
    He as COMPLETELY failed to provide clear and accurate information about this.

    Is that specific enough for you?

    Time123 (80b471)

  155. I can walk and chew gum at the same time.

    “Trump screwed s**t up”

    and

    “Trump’s ‘experts’ screwed s**t up”

    are not mutually exclusive assertions.

    Gryph (08c844)

  156. The artificial attenuation of viral material is not done by genetic sequencing. It’s basically a forced and repetitive natural selection that takes place at sub-physiological temperatures to slow down a virus’ reproduction rate to near-zero. If the level of attenuation in SARS-COV-2 is possible to see naturally, this strain represents the first time it’s ever been seen.

    Incorrect, in both the basic science and the any supposition that misunderstanding creates.

    Here is a very basic introduction.

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827)

  157. ” Intentionally avoiding listing those specific specific steps that were wrong, or failed to take.”

    Disbanded the pandemic response team
    Inadequate testing during the early community spreading phase
    Testing remains bad, despite his promise that “anybody who wants/needs a test can get on”
    Downplayed the severity during the early weeks.

    I’m sure there are more, these are just off the top of my head

    Davethulhu (3857ea)

  158. Not only that, Time123, he’s now calling for another $2 trillion stimulus package, called Phase 4 of his coronavirus response, to be spent on . . . wait for it . . . infrastructure. This clown just doesn’t have a clue.

    Gawain's Ghost (b25cd1)

  159. It’s always infrastructure week

    Davethulhu (3857ea)

  160. Just a public service announcement. Charmin is again available via Amazon Prime. Get em while they’re hot.

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827)

  161. Disbanded the pandemic response team

    I don’t think this is a ‘mistake’ it’s just an organization choice how his government is structured. I’m not going to argue if it’s better to have a dedicated pandemic response team or not. But it’s clear the structure he’s selected has failed to provide a good response. IMO that’s because the person that needed to make it an urgent matter is Trump, and he failed to rise to the occasion.

    Time123 (80b471)

  162. Not only that, Time123, he’s now calling for another $2 trillion stimulus package, called Phase 4 of his coronavirus response, to be spent on . . . wait for it . . . infrastructure. This clown just doesn’t have a clue.

    Gawain’s Ghost (b25cd1) — 3/31/2020 @ 1:05 pm

    We might need more stimulus, but I think it needs to go to people that are struggling to pay bills right now.

    Time123 (80b471)

  163. Not if it’s anything like the last stimulus package. And if Phase 4 of Trump’s coronavirus response turns out like Phases 1-3, it’s going to be an unmitigated disaster.

    Oh, well, my mother and I will both be receiving checks for $1,2000 in a few weeks. Hey, if the government sends me a check, I’m going to cash it. They’ve cashed every check I sent them over the last 40-odd years.

    We’ve only had one closing over that last two months, and we only get paid after closing and funding. This summer will most likely see a sharp downturn in sales and closings. So, yeah, I’ll take the money.

    It’s just that I really don’t like this level of deficit spending. $1 trillion in deficit spending annually, a $2 trillion stimulus package, and now another $2 trillion for infrastructure? It’s insane. We don’t need to be spending money on infrastructure now. We need to be concentrating on stopping the spread of this virus, then on returning the economy to growth and prosperity.

    What this administration and the federal government as a whole is doing now will come back to haunt us for decades.

    Gawain's Ghost (b25cd1)

  164. By his own standards, Trump’s response to the coronavirus outbreak has been an abject failure.

    https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2020/03/trump-coronavirus-response-failure.html

    Gawain's Ghost (b25cd1)

  165. 159. That’s an explanation of genetic sequencing in microbial experimentation. It only has anything to do with viral attenuation in the most obtuse sense. Try again, Poindexter.

    Gryph (08c844)

  166. And we are losing this fight badly.

    https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/31/opinion/coronavirus-cases-united-states.html

    Gawain's Ghost (b25cd1)

  167. Disbanded the pandemic response team

    When you start with a lie, it tends to stop any further consideration…

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  168. Slate and the NYT… puts the Dem in pandemic.

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  169. “When you start with a lie, it tends to stop any further consideration…”

    You’re awfully quick to call people liars, Haiku, especially considering who you support. I’d say the results of Bolton and Morrison’s “streamlining” speak for themselves.

    If, instead, they did work as expected, and the pandemic response team in whatever form it exists now did warn Trump of the danger of Coronavirus, I’ll amend my criticism to “Ignored pandemic response team.”

    Davethulhu (3857ea)

  170. Trump’s at his daily counterfactual, standing in front of a chart with one hump for “do nothing” with 1.5M-2.2M deaths. Specifically saying his response was great and it will only be 100k-240k. Like there was only an option for do nothing, which he followed for a long time, and total social distancing and isolation, which isn’t happening yet.

    If it’s only 100k-240k, then thank the local governments who responded quickly, if they’d had more advanced warning it could have been better. The federal response gets a D- grade at this point, and that is only in spite of Trump, not because of him, he as been a big fat anchor dragging them down, literally and figuratively.

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827)

  171. You do what you do best, Thulhu.

    I’m going to check with our 84 year old neighbors two doors down to see if they are in want or need of anything.

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  172. If you are not helping to do your part for the solution, you are part of the problem.

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  173. We’re all in wait-and-see mode at this point.

    https://www.axios.com/coronavirus-america-waiting-8e474434-5736-49eb-ad74-025305c031f8.html

    Kaiku, Trump may not have dismantled the pandemic response team, in whatever form it exists, but he did dismiss the panel of experts Obama set up in the NSC to study and prepare for the possibility of a pandemic outbreak or bio-weapon attack. That is not a lie, and it was stupid. Not that he would have listened to anything they said if they had remained in the NSC.

    Gawain's Ghost (b25cd1)

  174. Davethulhu (3857ea) — 3/31/2020 @ 2:49 pm

    This is a tedious argument. A change was made. No matter what the change was you would criticize it. If no change had been made you would criticize that. If it’s possible you would complain that something was done too early or too late depending on what the magic eightball said that roll. I’m willing to stipulate that you would complain about any action. You win. Congratulations.

    frosty (f27e97)

  175. Holding Trump accountable is definitely part of the solution. Remember that the reason our economy collapsed was the desperate lockdown needed after Trump lied to us that this was a pandemic in January and February and half of March.

    Trump took credit for every black man with a job, every hope for a cure, but “takes no responsibility” for the actual impact he made. I can’t accept the notion that criticizing Trump, which has pushed him to at least get out of the way to some extent, wasn’t saving lives. Even now, Trump can’t stop picking fights with hospitals and ventilator producers to make this all about himself. The criticism of Trump has to keep up for there to be any hope of Trump getting out of the way of those critical efforts.

    If you aren’t part of that solution, being honest about Trump and the republicans who kept him in office when he was impeached, you’re part of the problem. For example, look at what he was impeached for: offering aid in exchange for political propaganda help, and look at what his greatest sin is today, conditioning ventilators and other urgently needed supplies on political propaganda help from states. governors have to weigh bending their knee to this guy against the safety of their states.

    We are in very dark times and if Bush or Obama were in power it would still be a dark time, but there is a huge difference. Leadership matters and we have a president who can’t make decisions other than to inject himself and his fights into everything.

    Dustin (928d9a)

  176. Also, the IHME model they’re showing, is a best case model using China’s published rate curves as facts.

    If you don’t trust China’s public numbers, then trusting a model based on their numbers is probably a bad idea. If you replace IHME’s models China based numbers with Spain and Italy; it’s much, much, much worse. Reality is somewhere between most likely. 150k-500k, it all depends on how isolated we are, for how long really. If human to human contact is curbed dramatically, then we can lower the totals.

    Stay the eff at home. Your church will be just fine, Jesus understands.

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827)

  177. Note that we’re seeing a lot of younger people in hospitals, which is a bit different from other countries. The constant Team R “not at risk if you’re young” propaganda campaign, meant to preserve the economy, is why so many spring breakers stayed out. some of them will not make it.

    it’s like the guy who drank Trump’s fish tank cure. Leadership at the presidential level should be able to anticipate how its message is received.

    I can guarantee you every single Trump fan in this thread would not give Obama an inch if he made these mistakes.

    Dustin (928d9a)

  178. 169. The million-dollar question is, why? We’re ready to pull the trigger on a social distancing measure that could bring unemployment as high as 35% without any indication at all that the social distancing we’re doing is making any real difference. How do we shift gears to ensure that whatever measures we do take, they are at least measurably effective?

    Gryph (08c844)

  179. There’s dat guy with the Super Mind-reading Powers again!

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  180. The million-dollar question is, why? We’re ready to pull the trigger on a social distancing measure that could bring unemployment as high as 35% without any indication at all that the social distancing we’re doing is making any real difference. How do we shift gears to ensure that whatever measures we do take, they are at least measurably effective?

    Well, the president, vice president, Fauci, Birx, et al, are on the TeeVee right now calling you a liar.

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827)

  181. “This is a tedious argument. A change was made. No matter what the change was you would criticize it. If no change had been made you would criticize that. If it’s possible you would complain that something was done too early or too late depending on what the magic eightball said that roll. I’m willing to stipulate that you would complain about any action. You win. Congratulations.”

    Your (and other Trump supporters) unstated assumption here is that it’s impossible to have a valid criticism of Trump.

    Davethulhu (3857ea)

  182. When they do it, it’s not mind reading, Davethulhu. They know, for sure, if you don’t like Trump, you’re a bad person. These guys said the same stuff about freaking Mitt romney a few years ago. They think we want the pandemic to kill a lot of people because hey, election points. It is easier to see it that way than to realize, hey, voting for Trump probably killed tens of thousands of Americans who would have survived if Bush were president today.

    It’s psychologically difficult for anyone to admit they are wrong, even about minor things, especially when politics is involved.

    But who cares who is right? All that matters is that we keep hitting Trump hard, because that is the only reason he budged on the pandemic, and the only thing he cares about. Working with a con artist just won’t work. Any governor who bends the knee to get his support will be betrayed anyway. Bullies only understand one thing.

    Dustin (928d9a)

  183. Well, a group of spring breakers flew out of Austin to party in Cabo San Lucas. When they returned, several started feeling sick and dozens tested positive for COVID-19.

    Now, Mexico hasn’t seen anywhere near the number of cases as the US. So the most likely explanation is that they were infected by other spring breakers from other colleges at the resort, or they were infected in flight.

    Gawain's Ghost (b25cd1)

  184. Does anyone here know if the Feds have any safeguards against foreign nations buying U.S. equities that have been severely devalued due to the Chinese coronavirus?

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  185. 185. Yeah. I guess those credentials mean they’re never wrong, eh? And that if they are found to be wrong, they’ll throw themselves on our mercy and admit it. Pfft.

    Gryph (08c844)

  186. Well, a group of spring breakers flew out of Austin to party in Cabo San Lucas. When they returned, several started feeling sick and dozens tested positive for COVID-19.

    Now, Mexico hasn’t seen anywhere near the number of cases as the US. So the most likely explanation is that they were infected by other spring breakers from other colleges at the resort, or they were infected in flight.

    Gawain’s Ghost (b25cd1) — 3/31/2020 @ 3:26 pm

    Like 20 confirmed cases last I heard of this group, but I bet the vast majority of them are carriers. I wonder where they got the idea that young folks aren’t susceptible to this ‘no big deal’ virus? That it’s just going to disappear soon.

    If the president had taken things more seriously in January… Or even if he had just stayed on the teleprompter when it comes to this sort of thing, there wouldn’t be this bizarre need to defend stupidity.

    Dustin (928d9a)

  187. One of the reasons why these briefings are taking so long is Trump keeps answering questions, with (I hope) are just plain misunderstanding of reality. Then Pence, Fauci, and Birx have to re-answer the question with the actual facts. I’m sure they wish he were back in the residence watching reruns of the Apprentice right about now.

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827)

  188. Trump also just said that one of the reasons why NYC’s outbreak is so bad, is because it got a late start in social distancing and isolation.

    Hmm, why would that be?

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827)

  189. When asked about individual states issuing stay-at-home orders and how Florida Gov. Ron DeSantis resisted the urge to issue one, Trump responded that Florida is a “different kind of a state” with “a great governor” who “knows exactly what he’s doing.”

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827)

  190. Yeah, that sounds about right. The article I read said dozens, but didn’t mention a specific number. For college kids to think they can’t become infected or be carriers is asinine.

    I wondering what’s going on at South Padre Island right about now. I haven’t seen any reports. Ordinarily, South Padre, once a prime destination for spring breakers, would be would be packed with around 500,000 college students this time of year. Kids come from all over the country. And the Island generates 90% of its annual income over the month of Spring Break. But the entire Rio Grande Valley is on shut down for the foreseeable future, and I have no idea how many students decided to risk the trip. Still, if the virus can be transmitted in Cabo Sal Lucas or in flight, it certainly can be transmitted on South Padre Island or in flight.

    Gawain's Ghost (b25cd1)

  191. we are going through the worst thing that the country has probably ever seen.

    Well, that is a viewpoint I guess. Perspective and all that, it’s the most best worst ever.

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827)

  192. Some good news on the testing front:

    The Food and Drug Administration issued an emergency approval Tuesday for a serological testing kit produced by Bodysphere Inc. that can detect a positive or negative result for COVID-19 in two minutes.

    … Access to testing has improved in the U.S. thanks to commercial labs, but the average wait time for a patient’s results is four to five days — with some reports of it taking more than a week.

    These antibody tests could help people know if they are able to go back to work, as well as aid researchers in tracking the scale and death rate of the disease — key data for current and future pandemic policies.

    They’re especially useful for determining whether health care workers have some immunity and are at lower risk if they go back to work.

    There’s a little hitch though: “Bodysphere two-minute test can only detect the coronavirus in people who have had the infection for several days, meaning the test can’t be used too early on when the body hasn’t produced enough antibodies.”

    Dana (4fb37f)

  193. What western nation has had a better and more rapid response than our own?

    NJRob (26b7a4)

  194. Dana, I hope those, or some of the other non-critical tests, are generally available to the public relatively soon, so we can get a true map of the infection. If we find that more people have been asymptomatic then we can get people back to work, using real data.

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827)

  195. What western nation has had a better and more rapid response than our own?

    Germany, Netherlands, South Korea, Austria, Denmark, Japan…

    Ohio, Kentucky, California, Washington State, all did a pretty good job, the Federal response, and some states, has been horrible. The Feds don’t get to take credit for hard decisions that governors made early. The US still hasn’t issued a national mandatory order. Tennessee and Texas just implemented statewide stay at home orders.

    Was the US federal response better than the UK’s? Not really, just that some locales in the US did a better job.

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827)

  196. How were they better Klink? Timeframe? Actions? And I said western nations.

    NJRob (26b7a4)

  197. We’re supposed to be exceptional. Great even.

    nk (1d9030)

  198. I sure do too, Colonel Klink. There is also an accompanying report about Abbott Labs now being allowed to produce portable testing kits with a five-minute test:

    Abbott Laboratories says it has received emergency authorization from the FDA to produce portable novel coronavirus tests, which the company indicates can detect the virus within five minutes…

    …The U.S. doesn’t have the capacity to do enough COVID-19 testing right now, and the tests that are available can take a week to produce results. Closing both of those gaps will be key to getting the virus under control…Abbott Laboratories says it is working with the Trump administration to deliver portable test kits to “areas where they can have the greatest impact” — likely virus hotspots such as New York, New Jersey and California…The medical-device company plans to deliver 50,000 tests daily beginning April 1…

    Dana (4fb37f)

  199. Joe Biden’s 3-step coronavirus plan:

    “One, we have to depend on what the president’s going to do right now.”

    “First of all, he’s has to tell a wait til the cases before anything happens.”

    “The whole idea is he’s got to get in place things we’re shortages of.”

    Dustin (928d9a)

  200. How were they better Klink? Timeframe? Actions? And I said western nations.

    So Germany isn’t western? Austria? So it’s only western countries, unless they make your claim a lie, then they are not western, or something.

    All of those countries are testing at a higher rate than us, they all have had national contact tracking… You know what we don’t have today in the US? The Irish cancelled St. Paddy’s day, did we cancel Mardi Gras.

    Yeah, I know, it’s not the president, Donald J Trump’s job to cancel Mardi Gras, it’s the Mayor’s job. When it comes to Donnie, it’s always someone else’s job. What is his job exactly?

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827)

  201. And some more innovation as the private sector kicks in:

    Biotech startup Cue Health has secured a $13 million contract from the U.S. Department of Health and Human Service’s Biomedical Advanced Research and Development Authority (BARDA), which will be used to speed the development and testing of a handheld molecular test that can detect the presence of the SARS-CoV-2 novel coronavirus that causes COVID-19.

    Cue, which broke cover in 2014 with plans for a connected lab in a box for at-home testing and a $7.5 million funding round, is developing a product that pairs cartridge-like test kits with a compact and connected mini lab device that can transmit results to a personalized app-based health dashboard.

    “We have worked with the BARDA team for the past two years developing and testing a 20-minute, molecular influenza test designed for home and point-of-care use,” said Cue Health CEO Ayub Khattak in a statement. “Our connected platform could serve as a critical tool in identifying the SARS-CoV-2 virus.”

    Cue’s proposed test solution would provide results in less than 25 minutes, using samples collected via nasal swab, with all testing done at point-of-care rather than requiring any round-trip shipping.

    Dana (4fb37f)

  202. Speaking of testing, tomorrow is 4 weeks from this from Mike Pence…

    But obviously, of greatest concern to many millions of Americans is the issue of testing. President Trump took decisive action this weekend when he changed the way that testing is approved through the FDA. Now I’m pleased to report that we have more than 2,500 kits that are being distributed around the country this week that will make more than 1.5 million tests available at hospitals that have requested them and in areas of the country that have been particularly impacted by the coronavirus.

    We just passed 1 Million total, today. What’s a few million and a few weeks among friends. I’m sure it’s fine.

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827)

  203. Armchair QBs are the best!

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  204. Trump said he knew better than the president, both Bush and Obama, incessantly. Endless trash talk like this:

    Leadership: Whatever happens, you’re responsible. If it doesn’t happen, you’re responsible.

    But now that the shoe is on the other foot, Trump says

    “I don’t take responsibility at all,”

    It’s a total flip flop. If you criticize Trump’s performance you’re an armchair QB, even though Trump and his supporters did this day in and day out. Even though the only thing that finally pushed trump to take this pandemic seriously was this sort of public pressure.

    Trump only cares about one thing. If we rely on him to put us first we’re going to need a lot of caskets and urns.

    Dustin (928d9a)

  205. CH, Don’t need to be an expert to see Trump is done a terrible job.

    Time123 (6e0727)

  206. Armchair QBs are the best!

    You mean like

    “I don’t want you to be the backup quarterback, we need you to be Tom Brady here”

    And Trump’s response…

    “Somebody in the fake news said, uh, one of the governors said, ‘Oh we need Tom Brady. I said, ‘Yeah.’ He meant that in a positive way. We need Tom Brady. And we’re gonna, uh, do great, and he meant it very positively but they took it differently. They think Tom Brady should be leading the effort. That’s only fake news and I like Tom Brady. Spoke to him the other day. He’s a great guy. But, uh, I wish, uh, that the news could be real. I wish it could be honest. I wish it weren’t corrupt. But so much of it is. It’s so sad to see.”

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827)

  207. Also, it’s funny, when you make a general statement the question is to get specific. When you get specific it’s armchair quarter backing. I

    Time123 (457a1d)

  208. Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827) — 3/31/2020 @ 5:40 pm

    So ya got nothing other than the Irish cancelled an event 3 weeks later than a previous event and during when the President was having all hands on deck. Truly inspiring Klink.

    NJRob (26b7a4)

  209. Germany, not the west, Austria, not the west, it’s nice that you know things like, what the west is, or the east, or, well, a thing.

    When did the US issue a national stay at home order exactly?

    If only Mike Dewine was president. We’d have an elf instead of a troll, and maybe his fanboys wouldn’t be so dumb.

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827)

  210. You cited nations that weren’t western. I asked you, referencing the western nations you did mention, how were they better? Still waiting.

    NJRob (4d595c)

  211. G-E-R-M-A-N-Y, A-U-S-T-R-I-A. Are you mentally defective? Can you not read?

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827)

  212. D-E-N-M-A-R-K…jeez. What a mascot from the University of the Philippines.

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827)

  213. You have a lot of trouble reading. I understand. You mentioned Asian nations in addition to the western ones when my remarks specifically requested western nations. I corrected you several times and additionally asked you what steps the western nations took that were so superior to what the President has done. You haven’t responded other than huffing a lot.

    NJRob (4d595c)

  214. Again with the inability to know things, read things, comprehend things.

    All of those countries are testing at a higher rate than us, they all have had national contact tracking… You know what we don’t have today in the US?

    Plus, yada, yada, yada. I know, Trump is the bestest, the US response has been better than everywhere else, except the other ones, but there are no other ones, because if a world existed that others did a better job the Trump would not be perfection incarnate. Knew it was a pandemic, just tricking the virus, letting it get tired out, before…and perfection.

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827)

  215. At a higher rate per what? They are the size of a state. Easier to do. What are you asking President Trump to do that he hasn’t done?

    NJRob (4d595c)

  216. “Germany’s case fatality rate is so low due to its widespread testing. “In some countries only very symptomatic cases are tested (e.g. in Italy) and in others a broader testing strategy is done (e.g. in Germany),” writes Dr. Dietrich Rothenbacher, the director of the Institute for Epidemiology at Ulm University in Germany, in an email to TIME. That means that while Germany is currently the country with the fifth-most infections in the world, chances are that it has fewer unreported cases than many other countries, where testing is harder to come by.”

    https://time.com/5812555/germany-coronavirus-deaths/

    Davethulhu (3857ea)

  217. Why are you limiting it to western countries? Does Korea’s example require inscrutable Asian techniques not available in the west?

    Davethulhu (3857ea)

  218. Wow, 821 deaths today alone. That’s new single day record. It will be broken soon.

    Last week, Michigan 15 confirmed cases. This week it has over 1,500, and Detroit is a hot spot.

    Here in the Rio Grande Valley, the number of confirmed cases doubled in two days. An entire nursing home in Cameron County is infected.

    This virus is spreading like wildfire, all because the Trump administration, the CDC and the FDA totally botched the testing roll out. We literally have no idea how many people have been infected. How many are asymptomatic carriers, infecting who knows how many others. The number of confirmed cases keeps going up, up, up, up, up, so will the number of deaths.

    The utter failure of government at all levels is allowing this virus to spread unimpeded, and it’s only going to get worse.

    Gawain's Ghost (b25cd1)

  219. Lots of conflict out there right now regarding physicians supplying their own protective gear and speaking freely about perceived problems.

    Ametican Academy Of Emergency Medicine – Position Statement on Use of Self-Supplied PPE

    AAEM believes that emergency physicians are entitled to wear self-supplied PPE including respirators that meet NIOSH standards when, in their medical opinion, hospital or healthcare facility supplied PPE is inadequate.

    AAEM will offer support to any emergency physician threatened or terminated for attempting to protect themselves and their patients in this manner. This includes assistance with filing an OSHA complaint and pursuit of litigation for wrongful termination.

    AAEM believes that until sufficient evidence exists regarding the safety of such, it is improper to downgrade the level of PPE recommended due to supply chain issues.

    AAEM supports other frontline healthcare workers in obtaining and using self-supplied PPE as well.

    https://www.aaem.org/resources/statements/position/use-of-self-supplied-ppe
    __

    Also:

    ER doctor who criticized Bellingham hospital’s coronavirus protections has been fired

    “ BELLINGHAM – An emergency room physician who publicly decried what he called a lack of protective measures against the novel coronavirus at his workplace, PeaceHealth St. Joseph Medical Center, has been fired.

    Ming Lin, who has worked at the hospital for 17 years and became a local cause célèbre for his pleas for more safety equipment and more urgent measures to protect staff, was informed of his termination as he was preparing for a shift at the hospital Friday afternoon, he said.”

    https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/health/er-doctor-who-criticized-bellingham-hospitals-coronavirus-protections-has-been-fired/?amp=1&__twitter_impression=true
    _

    harkin (b64479)

  220. Gawain’s Ghost (b25cd1) — 3/31/2020 @ 11:15 pm

    This virus is spreading like wildfire, all because the Trump administration, the CDC and the FDA totally botched the testing roll out.

    You’re crossing up the narratives. Social distancing is what slows the virus. The tests allow for targeted quarantines so that people without the virus could return to normal activities and restart the economy. So, it’s Trump screwed up the testing and doomed the economy. Then it’s Trump didn’t act soon enough on lockdowns so the virus is spreading like wildfire.

    Didn’t you get the memo?

    frosty (f27e97)

  221. NJRob (4d595c) — 3/31/2020 @ 10:34 pm

    I think it’s been said here a couple of times. A number of people have said something to the effect that he should just stop talking, go away, or my personal favorite be better.

    Once you understand that we didn’t have a massive epidemic like this under BO, W, Clinton, or any president in recent memory it’s obvious that this pandemic in the US is his fault and it would go away if he went away. Have faith brother. If you just have faith you will see the light.

    Some have criticized Trump for good reason. But if you aren’t of the faithful who want him gone at all cost then you’re part of the problem.

    frosty (f27e97)

  222. Thank you for explaining frosty. Now it makes sense. I was trying to subtly ask Klink about his request for a “national stay at home order,” but he wisely chose not to expand on that.

    Have a good morning.

    NJRob (4d595c)

  223. Kentucky Woman Blowhard

    Kentucky Blowhard
    He writes with his own kind of spite
    He won’t say it once
    But repeating it don’t
    Make it right
    And he hates Trump
    God knows, he hates Trump
    Kentucky Blowhard
    I’d throw him a biscuit
    If he would just quit
    Kentucky Blowhard

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  224. NJRob (4d595c) — 3/31/2020 @ 10:34 pm

    I think it’s been said here a couple of times. A number of people have said something to the effect that he should just stop talking, go away, or my personal favorite be better.

    Once you understand that we didn’t have a massive epidemic like this under BO, W, Clinton, or any president in recent memory it’s obvious that this pandemic in the US is his fault and it would go away if he went away. Have faith brother. If you just have faith you will see the light.

    Some have criticized Trump for good reason. But if you aren’t of the faithful who want him gone at all cost then you’re part of the problem.

    frosty (f27e97) — 4/1/2020 @ 6:57 am

    This isn’t a remotely fair or accurate representation of what I’ve been saying. I’ve been clear several times on what he did poorly in the past on this.

    Maybe his 2 hour press conference last night marks a turning point where

    -He consistently characterizes the problem as it is, and not as he wants it to be.
    -Honestly explains the situation and our material needs across the nation.
    -Puts forward a summary with concrete steps on what will be done to meet those needs.
    -Refrains from turning this into a culture war / political battle.
    -begins consistently presenting clear and accurate information to the public.

    Until he does those things he’s not even doing the things he can personally control. To say nothing about what the agencies hes responsible need to do.

    So please don’t mis-characterize my viewpoint just because Trump has been failing to address this well for the past 3 months.

    Time123 (235fc4)

  225. The Chinese government caused this worldwide pandemic. It started in Wuhan. It should have stopped in Wuhan, but the Chinese government covered up, lied, and destroyed evidence.

    How various countries responded is not the problem. The Chinese government threw the world overboard, and now is claiming the world should have known how to swim better.

    https://legalinsurrection.com/2020/03/if-you-claim-that-calling-it-wuhan-coronavirus-is-racist-you-are-part-of-the-cover-up/

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  226. The Chinese government caused this worldwide pandemic. It started in Wuhan. It should have stopped in Wuhan, but the Chinese government covered up, lied, and destroyed evidence.

    How various countries responded is not the problem. The Chinese government threw the world overboard, and now is claiming the world should have known how to swim better.

    Well then, it’s China’s fault. And then…

    Is the CV here now? You have to deal with the reality you are in, not in a fantasy one. Marvel didn’t write this show, this is the real world, put your big boy pants on.

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827)

  227. Say it again, y’all…

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)


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