Patterico's Pontifications

3/20/2020

Shocka: Trump Ignored the Coronavirus Warnings

Filed under: General — Patterico @ 7:32 pm



Shane Harris and others in the Washington Post:

U.S. intelligence agencies were issuing ominous, classified warnings in January and February about the global danger posed by the coronavirus while President Trump and lawmakers played down the threat and failed to take action that might have slowed the spread of the pathogen, according to U.S. officials familiar with spy agency reporting.

. . . .

Intelligence agencies “have been warning on this since January,” said a U.S. official who had access to intelligence reporting that was disseminated to members of Congress and their staffs as well as to officials in the Trump administration, and who, along with others, spoke on the condition of anonymity to describe sensitive information.

“Donald Trump may not have been expecting this, but a lot of other people in the government were — they just couldn’t get him to do anything about it,” this official said. “The system was blinking red.”

Of course, the notion that Trump ignored the warning signs was obvious for a while, but this reporting makes it especially clear that he had information within the government that he ignored. If only they had put it on Fox & Friends!

Trump now pretends he always knew this was a pandemic. Um, not so much, as a brutal new ad makes clear:

155 Responses to “Shocka: Trump Ignored the Coronavirus Warnings”

  1. The latest footage out of Italy is so frightening, and the stories out of NYC show that the wave is already starting to break.

    Patterico (115b1f)

  2. New York Post:

    Coronavirus killing more than a person an hour in NYC

    God bless them. God bless us all.

    DRJ (15874d)

  3. “The Coronavirus is very much under control in the USA. Stock Market starting to look very good to me!”

    Dave (1bb933)

  4. Why didn’t the anonymous source go to WaPo in January with this? Oh right … diversion.

    Munroe (dd6b64)

  5. I missed that 4 paragraph explanation of the specific actions President Trump refused to implement.

    Iowan2 (bbb95d)

  6. Munroe, in January they were trying to help Trump manage this problem. Now that Trump has flip flopped to saying he’s handled things perfectly, despite clearly handling it terribly, only Trump’s most loyal supporters can’t understand why this would come out now.

    It will get so, so much worse in October. I take no joy in Biden benefiting. I wouldn’t be surprised if there were some really nasty surprises for both of them.

    This is probably the best year for an independent party to make a serious bid. Just run someone who actually cares about our country and isn’t a blowhard idiot and you’ve got my vote. Doesn’t even have to be particularly conservative… just sane.

    Dustin (b18b7a)

  7. I missed that 4 paragraph explanation of the specific actions President Trump refused to implement.

    Imma go out on a limb and guess that getting flavored vaping products back on the shelves is not one of them.

    From the article:

    Azar couldn’t get through to Trump to speak with him about the virus until Jan. 18, according to two senior administration officials. When he reached Trump by phone, the president interjected to ask about vaping and when flavored vaping products would be back on the market, the senior administration officials said.

    #IVapeIVote

    Dave (1bb933)

  8. Ship Of State meets Typhoon Wave, aft-end forward.

    “Captain, we have to maneuver… for the safety of the ship! Captain! We’re in serious trouble!” – Steve Maryk [Van Johnson] ‘The Caine Mutiny’ 1954

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  9. “only Trump’s most loyal supporters can’t understand why this would come out now.”
    Dustin (b18b7a) — 3/20/2020 @ 8:04 pm

    Actually, it’s totally obvious. Someone suddenly realized Trump might still win.

    This only matters to Trump critics at a time like this.

    Munroe (dd6b64)

  10. In case you missed this …
    https://twitter.com/WHO/status/1217043229427761152
    6:18 AM · Jan 14, 2020

    Neo (f66943)

  11. there is no chineser virus

    it is a democrat media hoax

    why, you ask?

    so mr. trump cannot have a military parade with tatters and tanks on memorial day like the french have

    that’s why

    nk (1d9030)

  12. 4 paragraphs…

    Well, maybe if he’d have told the governors the intel 8 weeks ago when he was getting it, they could have done his job a bit earlier. If it wasn’t for them, he’d not have been shamed into even this lackadaisical response.

    Mentally unfit, and that was only when he was selling US interests down the river for personal enrichment, financial and fuel for his narcissistic soul. President Pence has such a nice ring to it.

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827)

  13. Barely a month after Trump was informed of all those warning signs all hell was breaking loose.

    Oh wait… that was the Roger Stone trial.

    Munroe (dd6b64)

  14. Still waiting for the list of actions President Trump refused to implement.

    the WAPO story is from a template they have been using since the begining of 2016 all opinion. anonymous sources. Named people from the White House, relating a version of events, but not a single direct quote from any of them.

    Iowan2 (bbb95d)

  15. Paaterico, did you know that it was your job to take charge of the coronavirus response while Trump was playing golf and jerking off? What were you thinking, writing about the Roger Stone trial instead?

    nk (1d9030)

  16. “ Any foreign national who has traveled within China in the last 14 days will not be allowed to enter the United States, according to a proclamation from President Trump. The action is to prevent the spread of the new coronavirus, said US Secretary of Health and Human Services Alex Azar. Azar also said that he was declaring a public health emergency in the US……

    …… The new policies contradict advice from the World Health Organization (WHO), which said yesterday that countries should not restrict travel or trade in their response to the new virus…..

    ……. Coronavirus still poses a low risk to the general public in the US, said Anthony Fauci, director of the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases.”

    https://www.theverge.com/2020/1/31/21117403/trump-coronavirus-ban-travel-non-us-citizens-china
    __ _

    Almost sounds like this thing escalated fast. Too bad it was only Trump caught asleep at the switch.
    _

    harkin (b64479)

  17. First off, being 2 months late in action in a “war” is inexcusable.

    But three years in, it’s all because they inherited a broken system, but he fixed it totally, but because it was broken there was a delay, thank goodness that they fixed it, because its definitely broken, but it’s fixed, because it was so broken, they’ve done a great job fixing it, but it being broken…3 years ago was the reason that they fixed it tomorrow, yesterday, before…totally broken…fixed…broken…mommy.

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827)

  18. “only Trump’s most loyal supporters can’t understand why this would come out now.”
    Dustin (b18b7a) — 3/20/2020 @ 8:04 pm

    Actually, it’s totally obvious. Someone suddenly realized Trump might still win.

    This only matters to Trump critics at a time like this.

    That there is an election coming up doesn’t change the fact that the President of the United States was informed months ago – after apparently being “unavailable” to take a call from Azar (and then he didn’t even care) – about the impending crisis. He chose to sit on it and play down any concerns. So what if this info is coming out because there’s an election. It still demonstrates how unfit he is to in the position, and that people have been harmed because of his selfish negligence.

    Dana (4fb37f)

  19. Almost sounds like this thing escalated fast. Too bad it was only Trump caught asleep at the switch.

    Hmm, where have I read this before?

    Ah, yes!

    Even Donald Trump, whose Act I was “Everything Is Fine and Soon We Will Have Zero Cases,” will not be able to ignore the changes forever. Act II is coming, and it will be titled: “There Is No Way Trump Could Have Known It Would Get This Bad.” Never mind that everyone was telling him for weeks how bad it was likely to get. That will be the defense.

    Dave (1bb933)

  20. 9. Yep. I’m so old I still remember 2017. every Friday around 4:00pm eastern another breaking story about the corruption and incompetence of the White House. Go back and look at all those stories. They are all exactly the same. “sources close the White House have revealed______!!” While the White House has denied the veracity of the allegations…if true, this could lead the downfall of the Trump Administration.” Let’s go to our expert panel. Comprised of old Obama staffers!

    And what happened? Four years later, with the President receiving 90% negative coverage, President Trump is more popular than Obama, who received 90% positive coverage, at the same time in their administrations. And President Trumps approval has risen to 54% approval vs 43% disapproval for his handling of the COVID-19 response.

    Democrats told us they had to impeach Trump to keep him from getting re-elected. If only the President would cooperate and do something impeachable.

    Iowan2 (bbb95d)

  21. Monroe,

    Part of the job of being the President is to be able to handle any number of crisis happening at the same time. Are you telling me that Trump is unable to? Because that’s what it sounds like when you make excuses for him about something that has taken the lives of so many innocent people. How sad you have such low expectations of the individual sitting in the most powerful position in the world. Yes

    Dana (4fb37f)

  22. Fortunately, Iowan2, the content of intelligence briefings is archived, and we won’t need to take anyone’s word about what they contained.

    Of course, if he holds true to form, Trump will do everything in his power to cover-up his misdeeds.

    Whatever it takes to absolve himself of responsibility.

    But this is a f*ck-up orders of magnitude worse than his previous ones, and you can’t gas-light a virus.

    Dave (1bb933)

  23. 12. Well, maybe if he’d have told the governors the intel 8 weeks ago when he was getting it, they could have done his job a bit earlier.

    Suuuure they would.

    Mayor De Blasio ordered Covid 19 testing supplies on March 6th.
    https://nypost.com/2020/03/20/city-hall-didnt-order-covid-19-supplies-for-nyc-until-march-6/amp/

    Iowan2 (bbb95d)

  24. “Because that’s what it sounds like when you make excuses for him about something that has taken the lives of so many innocent people.”
    Dana (4fb37f) — 3/20/2020 @ 8:42 pm

    I blame the Chinese government, whose false assurances were swallowed whole by self anointed experts like WHO and a media and blogosphere who didn’t much care — then. But the ChiComs didn’t win an election here in 2016 and show up the GOP milquetoast wing, so why blame them for deaths when the deceased can be leveraged for the next election. Yes, truly sad.

    Munroe (dd6b64)

  25. Mayor De Blasio ordered Covid 19 testing supplies on March 6th.

    Thanks for making my point March 6th, two months after Trump was informed, and a week before the administration did it.

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827)

  26. I blame the Chinese government, whose false assurances were swallowed whole by self anointed experts like WHO and a media and blogosphere who didn’t much care — then. But the ChiComs didn’t win an election here in 2016 and show up the GOP milquetoast wing, so why blame them for deaths when the deceased can be leveraged for the next election. Yes, truly sad.

    Good thing the Intel community didn’t believe the Chinese and told the president. Also, you could have watched the news in January.

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827)

  27. DeBlasio has to answer for his actions impacting NYC. Trump has to answer for actions that impacted entire nation. The buck stops with him, remember?

    Dana (4fb37f)

  28. “Also, you could have watched the news in January.”
    Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827) — 3/20/2020 @ 8:59 pm

    LOL

    I remember something about “heads on a pike”. Is that a CV symptom?

    Munroe (dd6b64)

  29. More from the article:

    On Feb. 25, Nancy Messonnier, a senior CDC official, sounded perhaps the most significant public alarm to that point, when she told reporters that the coronavirus was likely to spread within communities in the United States and that disruptions to daily life could be “severe.” Trump called Azar on his way back from a trip to India and complained that Messonnier was scaring the stock markets, according to two senior administration officials.

    Cut to the bridge of the RMS Titanic, somewhere in the North Atlantic:

    Ensign Messonnier: We’re heading straight for an iceberg.

    Captain Trump: Mr. Azar, tell her to shut up, she’ll scare the passengers. Full speed ahead!

    Dave (1bb933)

  30. Munroe, it may be that Putin pays you to only read Google alerts with “Trump” in them, but there is a lot more information out there than you “remember”.

    nk (1d9030)

  31. “I blame the Chinese government…”

    – Munroe

    You are the saddest of water-carriers – sadder even than Colonel Haiku in the first Romney era.

    Leviticus (28a6ca)

  32. This is what happens when an entire political party confuses their resentments with reality.

    john (cd2753)

  33. “On Feb. 25, Nancy Messonnier, a senior CDC official, sounded perhaps the most significant public alarm…”
    Dave (1bb933) — 3/20/2020 @ 9:09 pm

    Feb 25?? Gee, lowly commenters on blogs must have gotten some killer inside information.

    That we can now discuss a viral contagion that could mutate and kill millions is proof that impeachment is over.
    Munroe (dd6b64) — 2/1/2020 @ 10:50 am

    Munroe (dd6b64)

  34. You’re a genius, Munroe. It only took a global pandemic to get you off Trump’s d*ck.

    Leviticus (28a6ca)

  35. You’re truly high class, Leviticus.

    That move of yours would get me banned, but you know you won’t.

    Munroe (dd6b64)

  36. Really glad that ya boy was taking all those steps to prevent the potential death of millions that you acknowledge as a possibility, though – prior to Feb. 25, of course.

    Leviticus (28a6ca)

  37. It’s not like you were trying to divert attention from Trump’s January incompetence by making light of a viral outbreak. Congratulations, you got your wish.

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827)

  38. I do know that.

    It’s called social capital. It correlates with good faith.

    Go build it.

    Leviticus (28a6ca)

  39. The biggest problem is you think that trolling makes you look clever.

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827)

  40. On Feb. 25, Nancy Messonnier, a senior CDC official, sounded perhaps the most significant public alarm to that point, when she told reporters that the coronavirus was likely to spread within communities in the United States and that disruptions to daily life could be “severe.” Trump called Azar on his way back from a trip to India and complained that Messonnier was scaring the stock markets, according to two senior administration officials.

    Trump also on Feb. 25:

    On Tuesday, the president also addressed reports that he’s working to purge his administration of officials who don’t support him, claiming he doesn’t think “never-Trumpers” are a big problem for his administration.

    “I don’t think its a big problem. I don’t think it’s very many people,” Mr. Trump said, adding he wants “people who are good for the country, loyal to the country.”

    With fears of coronavirus sweeping the globe and hitting the markets, Mr. Trump claimed without elaborating that “we’re very close to a vaccine.” He also said that the coronavirus is well under control in the U.S. The White House on Monday night requested more than $2 billion from Congress to address the coronavirus outbreak. The Dow dropped roughly 1,000 points on Monday over coronavirus fears.

    Dana (4fb37f)

  41. Dana (4fb37f) — 3/20/2020 @ 8:42 pm

    You aren’t alone with this one and yes the president should have been able to deal with multiple situations. I’m not sure it was really about selfish negligence though. Every other world leader ignored or underestimated it too. He also did what we’ve always done in the past and what looks like basic plan A. This particular crisis is so big that I think it’s still being misunderstood.

    Back in January covid was dismissed by everyone but a few edge cases. In February the idea that we’d be dealing with something like this was a joke. Even now people say we’re overreacting. Saying should have known should have done something is good but hindsight is also 20/20.

    Maybe we should go back to keeping the government from actually overreacting more instead. Or maybe we focus on decoupling from China. Or preparing for what’s to come. Because it’s going to get worse. I think we should figure out how to not let this happen again but we can do that after we’re through this. In the mean time we need to not make more mistakes we need to learn or wasting energy we’re going to need in the coming weeks.

    frosty (f27e97)

  42. Trump did not care, and still does not, except to the extent that it makes him look bad, and nobody will convince me otherwise.

    nk (1d9030)

  43. Trump is obsessed with numbers:

    Poll numbers
    Attendance at his rallies
    Unemployment rate (which he derided as “complete fiction” when it suited him)
    The Dow

    During his visit to the CDC, he talked about the people on the cruise ship as “numbers” in the same way.

    And he touted the “15 cases” that would soon be zero cases, completely ignoring the reality of the situation.

    His problem is that his time horizon for anything is one news cycle. He lives entirely in the moment.

    The bit about “very close to a vaccine” is obviously a straight up lie, trying to coax the stock market a little higher after it dropped.

    All the other happy-talk, fiddling while Rome burned, had the same purpose.

    A week ago, he was so pleased with himself when the Dow went up (for one day) after his new conference that he sent his cultists a signed picture of the chart. Anyone with a clue would have understood that with massive dislocations starting, the Dow was going to drop, bigly, very soon. But that would happen tomorrow, or the day after, so it didn’t concern him.

    Dow drops for one day: We have a problem! Get Azar to shut that #$%^! up. Better tell them we’re close to a vaccine!

    Dow goes up for one day: Problem? What problem? I’m a hero! Everything’s under control!

    Dave (1bb933)

  44. Why didn’t the anonymous source go to WaPo in January with this? Oh right … diversion.

    Or at least the World Health Organization which kept telling everyone that it wasn’t contagious.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  45. Still trying wrap my brain around this one from Time a couple weeks ago:

    Health Experts Are Telling Healthy People Not to Wear Face Masks for Coronavirus. So Why Are So Many Doing It?

    https://time.com/5794729/coronavirus-face-masks/
    __ _

    harkin (b64479)

  46. Expert advice not to wear facemasks? Man, I wish I had my old army gas mask and full protective gear at this point.

    So, NYC has 8.5 times the COVID-19 rate as America.

    Yep. Mask up!

    Make America Ordered Again (23f793)

  47. Leviticus, why do you hold the Chinese government blameless? By all reports out of China (other than what they control), they are STILL lying.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  48. I imagine the culture inside this administration is horrible at this point. Lots of phony yes-men signaling and gasps when anyone recommends changing course or that the president is saying something that’s wrong. Anybody talking to the people against the white house narrative will be purged. Then they can’t really do their job. So a lot of people are making calculations here, over time getting real tired of it.

    Hey, it would be great if Trump was right about a cure. We all realize he’s BSing on that just as much as he was about this virus being no big deal. Trump’s supporting blogs are making such a big deal over their right to call it a Chinese virus. By all means call it Kung Flu if you want. 99% of us don’t care about that.

    Harkin, I’m not sure what the confusion is… I think they are saying the masks were in short supply so wearing them if you’re not sick or interacting with the sick is keeping them from being worn by those who need them. It’s like TPing a house these days… sure, I get the appeal but it seems a little wasteful.

    Dustin (b18b7a)

  49. When the President put in the travel ban from China, how many were attacking him and saying it was racist, bigoted, unnecessary, etc?

    Same note, different verse.

    NJRob (4d595c)

  50. I saw someone at the supermarket yesterday wearing a scuba mask and snorkel with some kind of filter material affixed to the end with duct tape. Not sure if it he was just trying to be funny or if it’s genius.

    Munroe (dd6b64)

  51. Leviticus, why do you hold the Chinese government blameless? By all reports out of China (other than what they control), they are STILL lying.

    Kevin M (ab1c11) — 3/20/2020 @ 10:07 pm

    He did not say or suggest or imply that China is blameless.

    Rather, he pointed out that deflecting the president’s performance by blaming China is a hack move. All I see from the usual blogs is that it’s really triggering the SJWs to say Kung Fly or Chinese Virus. This is a manipulative strategy meant to divert attention from our leadership failing to do their jobs.

    Dustin (b18b7a)

  52. Nk and others,

    any chance we can get away from our bickering back and forth about the President just for a few days? When things get relatively normal again I’m sure we can go back to mocking and insulting each other.

    Look at DeWine ignoring the court and ordering the polls closed today.

    NJRob (4d595c) — 3/17/2020 @ 9:15 am

    Well that didn’t last.

    NJRob (4d595c)

  53. “ Leviticus, why do you hold the Chinese government blameless? By all reports out of China (other than what they control), they are STILL lying.”

    – Kevin M

    I hold no one blameless for this – obviously, for anyone inclined to read my words with a slight measure of good faith. I’ll hold the Chinese government in some blame – and “our” government too, for deceiving its people into believing they were safe when they were not.

    Call me crazy for such a standard.

    Leviticus (28a6ca)

  54. They didn’t “keep” telling everyone it wasn’t contagious.

    They tweeted (once, on January 14) what they had been told by the Chinese:

    Preliminary investigations conducted by the Chinese authorities have found no clear evidence of human-to-human transmission of the novel #coronavirus (2019-nCoV) identified in #Wuhan, #China.

    You have some scientific/technical background, so you should be able to understand that the sentence above does not say it isn’t contagious.

    It says there is no clear evidence that it is contagious. It also say it is based on preliminary investigations, and to a scientist that means “uncertain and subject to revision”.

    Nevertheless, it had been identified as a coronavirus and isolated on January 7, and since many (or all?) coronaviruses are contagious, it would be reasonable to suppose this one could be.

    The Chinese authorities confirmed transmission between humans on January 20, six days later.

    Dave (1bb933)

  55. The term “coronavirus” puts residents of Corona CA at risk for discrimination and hate crimes.

    Munroe (dd6b64)

  56. I want mommy to rub Vapo-Rub on my chest and tell me everything is going to be alright as much as the next prole, but Trump is not mommy, he is the evil stepmother asking “Mirror, mirror, on the wall, who’s the yugest of them all?”

    nk (1d9030)

  57. And no way I’m eating that apple, either.

    nk (1d9030)

  58. “ I’m not sure what the confusion is… I think they are saying the masks were in short supply so wearing them if you’re not sick or interacting with the sick is keeping them from being worn by those who need them.”
    __ _

    I do see them saying those already infected should wear them to minimize risk of spreading it further but as to healthy people wearing masks I see statements like this:

    “It seems kind of intuitively obvious that if you put something—whether it’s a scarf or a mask—in front of your nose and mouth, that will filter out some of these viruses that are floating around out there,” says Dr. William Schaffner, professor of medicine in the division of infectious diseases at Vanderbilt University. The only problem: that’s not effective against respiratory illnesses like the flu and COVID-19. If it were, “the CDC would have recommended it years ago,” he says. “It doesn’t, because it makes science-based recommendations.”

    They allude to the mask supply here but once again they add that masks are not effective for people who aren’t infected:

    “Seriously people- STOP BUYING MASKS!” tweeted Dr. Jerome Adams, the U.S. Surgeon General, on Feb. 29. “They are NOT effective in preventing general public from catching #Coronavirus, but if healthcare providers can’t get them to care for sick patients, it puts them and our communities at risk!” In an interview with Fox & Friends, Adams said that wearing a mask can even increase your risk of getting the virus. “Folks who don’t know how to wear them properly tend to touch their faces a lot and actually can increase the spread of coronavirus.”
    _

    IMO that’s a very confusing message.
    _

    harkin (b64479)

  59. “They didn’t “keep” telling everyone it wasn’t contagious.”
    Dave (1bb933) — 3/20/2020 @ 10:22 pm

    Water carrying indeed.

    https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2020/mar/20/china-hid-coronavirus-admonished-whistleblowers/

    Behind the scenes, alarmed Chinese doctors witnessed the influx of patients suffering acute respiratory distress. These physicians in Wuhan knew in December that a new aggressive virus had emerged in their city and tried to get the word out through social media.

    They were quickly suppressed by Wuhan police, who picked up Dr. Li Wenliang, an ophthalmologist whose warnings to colleagues were reaching social media.

    Police presented Dr. Wenliang with a formal admonition for spreading “rumors.” The police summons and the physician’s warning were posted online.

    Dr. Wenliang contracted coronavirus and posted online a photo of himself in a hospital bed. He died Feb. 7. This week, Chinese authorities apologized to his family.

    “I don’t think he was rumor-mongering. Hasn’t this turned into reality now?” Li Shuying, his father, told the BBC. “My son was wonderful.”

    Munroe (dd6b64)

  60. By all reports out of China (other than what they control), they are STILL lying.

    Other than innuendo, do you have some actual evidence of these “all reports”?

    That Chinese businesses and schools are returning to more normal operations is not something they could easily fake.

    Why would they lie about the number of cases, at this point?

    I can’t vouch for them, of course, but I haven’t seen any evidence matching what you describe. I see prominent doctors in the West who talk about their numbers and don’t question them at all (they do question whether the measures and the small number of new cases are sustainable).

    South Korea has a free press, and they have also succeeded in bringing the disease under control. Their measures are somewhat less draconian than China’s, and their results aren’t quite as dramatic, but massive reductions can clearly be achieved.

    Dave (1bb933)

  61. those bad, bad chinesers

    and they’ve been making knockoffs of ivanka’s clothing and accessories lines too

    i’m so glad we did not elect them president

    nk (1d9030)

  62. You know, I’d be overjoyed if someone meaningful in the GOP decided to take on Trump about now. God knows that things are so chaotic that anything goes. He’s never been weaker, and his support has never been more brittle. But I don’t see any movement.

    Then again, “You come at the king, you’d best not miss.”

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  63. IMO that’s a very confusing message.
    _

    harkin (b64479) — 3/20/2020 @ 10:30 pm

    I think the message is actually very easy to understand.

    You stopped your bold right where they explain why. If you don’t use them properly (for example, touching them, storing them improperly, using them when they are soiled, it will increase the spread of disease.

    “Folks who don’t know how to wear them properly tend to touch their faces a lot and actually can increase the spread of coronavirus.”

    But I think it’s like any other kneejerk hoarding problem. Those garages stuffed with Purell and baby wipes aren’t just a waste… they are also manifesting in a lot of homes that lack the things they needed.

    They don’t want to say that outright because it only encourages the hoarders, though I think folks need to just be straight and say this stuff. If I were riding the bus I would probably wear an N95 mask, though I would need a ton of them to do it properly.

    Dustin (b18b7a)

  64. Water carrying indeed.

    You apparently failed to understand what we were talking about, completely.

    Kevin: Or at least the World Health Organization which kept telling everyone that it wasn’t contagious.

    Me: They (i.e. the WHO) didn’t “keep” telling everyone it wasn’t contagious.

    They (i.e. the WHO) tweeted (once, on January 14) what they had been told by the Chinese:

    Preliminary investigations conducted by the Chinese authorities have found no clear evidence of human-to-human transmission of the novel #coronavirus (2019-nCoV) identified in #Wuhan, #China.

    The WHO did not kill Dr. Wenliang.

    Dave (1bb933)

  65. You know, I’d be overjoyed if someone meaningful in the GOP decided to take on Trump about now. God knows that things are so chaotic that anything goes. He’s never been weaker, and his support has never been more brittle. But I don’t see any movement.

    Then again, “You come at the king, you’d best not miss.”

    Kevin M (ab1c11) — 3/20/2020 @ 10:45 pm

    Amen. Someone needs to go ahead and try.

    I gotta ask: is Mitt Romney really that unappealing to democrats compared to Biden? He’s always seemed like a moderate democrat to me.

    Dustin (b18b7a)

  66. Other than innuendo, do you have some actual evidence of these “all reports”?

    Just the stuff that leaks past the Great Firewall. The first thing that censorship kills is credibility.

    We’ll just have to see, won’t we? Do you really believe that they’ve contained the virus with a per capita death rate 20 times lower than anyone else? That the virus has spread everywhere throughout the world, but it didn’t do the same throughout China?

    They’ve just stopped counting and are allowing it to run its course. As we will soon enough.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  67. I gotta ask: is Mitt Romney really that unappealing to democrats compared to Biden? He’s always seemed like a moderate democrat to me.

    Moderate Democrats don’t mind Romney at all. But you need to attract Republicans, too. It might not matter though if Trump becomes toxic to Republicans.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  68. It feels like Trump is about to have a Captain Queeg moment.

    DRJ (15874d)

  69. He’s never been weaker, and his support has never been more brittle.

    I don’t think he’s any weaker inside the GOP.

    They have no choice but to keep defending him at this point, whatever he does.

    And so they will.

    Dave (1bb933)

  70. But I don’t think Romney is the guy. It has to be someone who failed to put the knife in, even if they didn’t play bodyguard either.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  71. I don’t think he’s any weaker inside the GOP.

    They have no choice but to keep defending him at this point, whatever he does.

    That’s what they said about Nixon.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  72. It feels like Trump is about to have a Captain Queeg moment.

    About to?

    Dave (1bb933)

  73. Moderate Democrats don’t mind Romney at all. But you need to attract Republicans, too. It might not matter though if Trump becomes toxic to Republicans.

    Kevin M (ab1c11) — 3/20/2020 @ 10:56 pm

    I really really don’t like Romney and it would be such an easy call to vote for him over Trump. I know you like Romney so it’s hard to gauge (like for me it’s literally insane that Trump got even one vote when Cruz was on the ballot).

    Dustin (b18b7a)

  74. It feels like Trump is about to have a Captain Queeg moment.

    Don’t encourage DCSCA.

    I’m hoping Trump has an LBJ moment.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  75. Nikki

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  76. “That the virus has spread everywhere throughout the world, but it didn’t do the same throughout China?”
    Kevin M (ab1c11) — 3/20/2020 @ 10:53 pm

    The authorities will tell you Hong Kong is part of China. The virus is still raging there, and it just so happens to be where word can get out and there’s somewhat of a free press.

    Munroe (dd6b64)

  77. According to Wikipedia, the Orange Germ already has enough pledged delegates to win the nomination on the first ballot.

    Walk me through somebody entering the race now and somehow getting nominated?

    Trump would have to announce that he wasn’t running, which is about as likely as Kate Upton showing up at my door with a quarter-pound of blow and a case of Moet-Chandon, or be unable to run for medical or other other reasons.

    Dave (1bb933)

  78. There have to be some left-wing Dems who now thing Bernie could win. Although the media won’t let that narrative take flight either. The fix is in for Biden. Given the way Trump is going to be blamed for this virus (as if he was running all the other countries doing half as well), Biden will be a lock.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  79. The virus is still raging there, and it just so happens to be where word can get out and there’s somewhat of a free press.

    Hong Kong has had a total of 192 cases and 4 deaths. 72 of those cases were in the last week, so they have had a bit of a flare-up after six weeks with very low numbers.

    Dave (1bb933)

  80. I have to ask though: How does bashing Trump for what he did or didn’t do in January help us now?

    It’s not an idle question.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  81. Dave (1bb933) — 3/20/2020 @ 11:12 pm

    Your info is old.
    https://www.scmp.com/news/hong-kong/health-environment/article/3076113/coronavirus-highest-risk-yet-new-covid-19

    Hong Kong confirmed 48 new coronavirus cases on Friday, by far the biggest daily increase and a stark reminder that the city was facing the real risk of an overwhelming surge of imported as well as community-spread infections.

    Munroe (dd6b64)

  82. “ I think the message is actually very easy to understand.”

    Guess we’ll just have to disagree that articles which state (even in the context provided):

    “ The only problem: that’s [wearing a mask] not effective against respiratory illnesses like the flu and COVID-19. ”

    and

    “Seriously people- STOP BUYING MASKS!” tweeted Dr. Jerome Adams, the U.S. Surgeon General, on Feb. 29. “They are NOT effective in preventing general public from catching #Coronavirus”

    are confusing as to the effectiveness of wearing a mask to prevent the virus and to argue otherwise is nonsense.
    _

    harkin (b64479)

  83. I have to ask though: How does bashing Trump for what he did or didn’t do in January help us now?

    It’s not an idle question.

    Kevin M (ab1c11) — 3/20/2020 @ 11:31 pm

    It’s fun. It certainly does no harm. I doubt it does any good either, but if everybody bashed politicians when appropriate (which is often) and without regard for partisan benefit it would do a lot of good.

    Dustin (b18b7a)

  84. “ I have to ask though: How does bashing Trump for what he did or didn’t do in January help us now?”

    It helps anyone seeking to prevent Trump from being re-elected, same as downplaying any culpability by the Chinese, the WHO or anyone else, same as the misdirection and diversion of reporting more about what to call the virus than serious reporting on mitigation. In some reporting I heard today the reporters seemed almost gleeful connecting infection numbers to Trump while never once mentioning China.

    If they could get away with calling it the Trump Virus, they would.

    harkin (b64479)

  85. Harkin, Kevin,

    Learning more information about our government’s mistakes definitely helps keep us informed, which is probably a purpose of a newspaper or blog.

    I do not see how this ‘downplays China’s culpability.’ That we need to only make this about China is consistent with Trump since his David Duke awkwardness a few years ago, but China can be an oppressive, dishonest country at the same time Trump did a bad job, putting American lives at risk Both are issues here. Perhaps President Biden can sue China.

    But if Trump’s defense amounts to hoping people don’t talk about how trump handled this, because look over there! yeah it’s probably going to be President Biden.

    Dustin (b18b7a)

  86. @69. DRJ, see #8. 😉

    @75. See #8; too late.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  87. @75. I’m hoping Trump has an LBJ moment.

    Yes, not quite a gall bladder scar but we’d like to see Trump’s “scalp reduction” surgery scar up close and personal.

    But did he pick Eric up by the ears, too?

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  88. I gotta ask: is Mitt Romney really that unappealing to democrats compared to Biden?

    OMG, yes.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  89. More New York City coronavirus news:

    The majority of New York City residents who have tested positive for the coronavirus are men between the ages of 18 and 49, according to newly released public health data.

    Even though experts say the elderly are the hardest hit by the virus, just 46% of the city’s COVID-19 patients are over 50 while 54% are 18-49. The remaining 2% of cases are people age 5 to 17.

    The demographics, from the city’s Health Department, were determined from an analysis of 3,954 positive cases on March 19.

    By Friday, March 20, there were 5,151 COVID-19 cases and 29 fatalities.

    Women are underrepresented in the city’s tally while men account for 59% of infected people.

    Men are more than twice as likely as women to die from the pathogen, White House coronavirus expert, Dr. Deborah Birx, said Friday citing mortality rates from Italy.

    DRJ (15874d)

  90. I have to ask though: How does bashing Trump for what he did or didn’t do in January help us now?

    It’s not an idle question.

    Kevin M (ab1c11) — 3/20/2020 @ 11:31 pm

    Not bashing. Identifying his flaws matters because we need to be clear what kind of leader he is, unless you think the President will never have to make an important decision in the next term.

    DRJ (15874d)

  91. Your info is old.

    One day old, yeah.

    So what?

    The virus has not been “raging” in Hong Kong. In fact, they had very numbers of cases until this week.

    The article that you linked clearly explains what’s happening, too: residents who were locked out of the territory by travel restrictions are being allowed to return. Some of them are sick.

    Had you bothered to read the first paragraph of the article, you would have seen:

    Hong Kong recorded 48 new coronavirus infections on Friday, the biggest daily jump since testing began, as medical experts warned the influx of arrivals from overseas had raised the risk of a resurging outbreak to its highest level yet.

    [emphasis added]

    The rest of the article emphasizes that people returning home are the source of most of the new infections.

    Dave (1bb933)

  92. …very *low* numbers of cases…

    Dave (1bb933)

  93. @90. The basic geography of NYC makes it all but necessary- and inevitable- to lock down and isolate the island of Manhattan and have the outer boroughs shelter in place. Aside from the commuters coming in and out from the Tri-State area, NYC residents literally live on top of each other and pretty much everything to keep it operating daily has to be brought in. Somebody sneezes in the Battery on a Saturday and the Upper West Side has a cold by the following Friday.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  94. “ I have to ask though: How does bashing Trump for what he did or didn’t do in January help us now?”

    It doesn’t.

    Revisit Apollo 13. ‘Working the problem’ to get them home became the new primary objective; sourcing the hows and whys of what went wrong was of secondary importance in that immediacy of the crisis and shelved for later analysis. Which is exactly what they did.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  95. OMG, yes.

    DCSCA (797bc0) — 3/21/2020 @ 12:33 am

    Straight shooting Mitt who never changed his mind even once, worked his way from the coal mines, has endless compassion for pets?

    Dustin (b18b7a)

  96. Revisit Apollo 13. ‘Working the problem’ to get them home became the new primary objective; sourcing the hows and whys of what went wrong was of secondary importance in that immediacy of the crisis and shelved for later analysis. Which is exactly what they did.

    DCSCA (797bc0) — 3/21/2020 @ 12:53 am

    Let’s not overstate what we’re doing here. This is entertainment. I hope at least. Y’all aren’t using my comments to save astronauts are you? It wouldn’t be too much more bizarre than 2020 has been if you were I guess.

    Dustin (b18b7a)

  97. I have to ask though: How does bashing Trump for what he did or didn’t do in January help us now?

    It’s not an idle question.

    Actually I think it kind of is an idle question.

    Apart from (very) occasional exchanges of practical information, like happyfeet’s tea recipes or occasional answers to legal questions, most of what is said here about politics is idle talk, isn’t it?

    Nobody’s minds are being changed. Nothing said here will affect events in the wider world. We may find the commentary, or links to commentary by other pundits, interesting, but it matters not at all.

    It’s simply a social activity, which is healthy especially in times of stress.

    Bashing Trump, and reading others bashing him, will entertain and divert some of us; defending him, and reading other defending him, will gratify others.

    Dave (1bb933)

  98. @97. “The ‘program management concept’ was recognized as a critical component of Project Apollo’s success in 1968, when Science magazine, the publication of the American Association for the Advancement of Science, observed…

    ‘In terms of numbers of dollars or of men, NASA has not been our largest national undertaking, but in terms of complexity, rate of growth, and technological sophistication it has been unique. . . . It may turn out that [the space program’s] most valuable spin-off of all will be human rather than technological: better knowledge of how to plan, coordinate, and monitor the multitudinous and varied activities of the organizations required to accomplish great social undertakings. Understanding the management of complex structures for the successful completion of a multifarious task was an important outgrowth of the Apollo effort.’”

    – source, https://www.history.nasa.gov/Apollomon/Apollo.html

    Elements of same are quite applicable to the management of this problem.

    https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-7-19/five-management-lessons-from-the-apollo-moon-landing

    ”Let’s work the problem people. Let’s not make things worse by guessing.” – Gene Kranz, Flight Director, Apollo 13, April 13, 1970

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  99. Know when to fold.

    harkin (b64479)

  100. One last thought on the confusing statements in the Time article about masks being unable to prevent infection…….

    Just imagine Trump said it.
    _

    harkin (b64479)

  101. Just imagine Trump said it.

    Well, the guy he appointed Surgeon General said it.

    Unitary executive, you know.

    Dave (1bb933)

  102. Well, the guy he appointed Surgeon General said it.”
    _

    Indeed he did, maybe that will be enough for some to question the wisdom of it.
    _

    harkin (b64479)

  103. Scanning a website w state-by-state numbers and NY state has over five times the number of infections that Washington state does, yet Washington has almost double the deaths. IIRC most of the early cases in WA were at an elderly facility so I guess that’s a big part of it besides not enough tested yet.

    Even so, they figure the fatality rate for NY at 0.5% and for WA it’s 5.4%.

    The highest state fatality rate is SD at 7.1% but sample size is only 14 infected.

    harkin (b64479)

  104. Forgot to include link:

    http://covid19stats.global/state/

    You can adjust for country, province etc.

    harkin (b64479)

  105. Los Angeles County tells doctors to limit coronavirus testing

    In another sign of the challenges created by a shortage of coronavirus tests in the United States, health officials in Los Angeles County are instructing doctors to only test sick people if a diagnosis would change how they would be treated, according to the Los Angeles Times.

    The Times reports that the county health department sent a letter to doctors this week saying they should only administer tests if “a diagnostic result will change clinical management or inform public health response.”

    The decision is part of a shift at the Los Angeles County Department of Public Health “from a strategy of case containment to slowing disease transmission and averting excess morbidity and mortality,” according to the Times.

    A nationwide shortage of tests and limited capacity at laboratories has led health authorities and hospitals around the country to set strict criteria for who can get tested for covid-19. Many patients with symptoms of the disease have been denied testing, even in cases when their doctors specifically asked for it.

    The move by Los Angeles County all but guarantees that confirmed cases in the county of 10 million will be undercounted.

    “If you like your virus, you can keep your virus.”

    Dave (1bb933)

  106. A cautionary tale on family gatherings:

    Coronavirus Ravages 7 Members of a Single Family, Killing 4

    Two more are hospitalized in critical condition.

    Dave (1bb933)

  107. 108. So now in addition to closing down businesses en masse and general economic suicide, now we have to worry about family members. SMDH…

    Gryph (08c844)

  108. Ms. Fusco-Jackson died a day before her test for coronavirus came back positive on Saturday evening.

    We were saying about tests?

    nk (1d9030)

  109. I propose we change the game a bit with a hypothetical. Let’s propose the optimal POTUS who responded with the most effective measures possible in the quickest realist amount of time. In that scenario when do you think the travel bans could have gone in place (not should)? When do you think we could have stocked the healthcare equipment we’ll need? When do you think the various rates of social distancing could have been triggered?

    I’ll go with some examples. The travel bans might have been moved forward a couple of days but I don’t think more than a week. I don’t think they could have been put in place prior to the infection actually being in the US. There is no date when we could have stockpiled the masks and vents we’ll need. The social distancing recommends could have been moved forward a week but not much more. All of the state based restrictions are reactionary and only go in after it’s obvious they’re needed.

    Am I missing anything? I’m sure some of you will want to vent about the lying and the general whatever. That’s fine but I’d really like to hear comments on things that would have made material differences.

    frosty (f27e97)

  110. Coronavirus cases doubling faster in the U.S. than any other country, report says. “The report was written by the infectious disease analytics team from MITRE, a Bedford-based nonprofit. Cases have been rising sharply across the country and the report shows they double every 1.75 days — very quickly in comparison to South Korea’s 23 days, which has been widely hailed for its competent coronavirus response.”

    Welp, that ain’t good.

    Ragspierre (d9bec9)

  111. DeBlasio has to answer for his actions impacting NYC. Trump has to answer for actions that impacted entire nation. The buck stops with him, remember?

    Dana (4fb37f) — 3/20/2020 @ 9:06 pm

    Yea, yea, yea…..the talking point has been whipped into submission. What you don’t have is an expansion of the narrative. You have a lengthy WAPO screed with lots some people named, but never quoted. Time lines, Depts, meetings etc. The President is responsible. He’s responsible for shutting down travel between the US and China. Democrats determined that is was racist, and nativist, and Presidents only purpose was the retribution against China, using public health as shield to hide his true motive. He is responsible for ordering the FDA to get the regulatory stick out of their ass, and stop hindering the COVID response. The President is responsible for creating new and novel govt,private alliances. The President is Responsible for adhering to federalism and refusing to allow governors and mayors to shift their shit to his plate.

    Never Trumpers want to fire the successful coach because he is down by 6 possessions in the first quarter. Let’s wait until at least we get into the second half to see how things play out. To keep the iffy analogy afloat. Waiting to launch to an attack on President Trump is not an option, because the outcome in the US will most likely show we did a great job of identify the threat, taking action, and saving lives. So waiting for results to roll in is counter productive to real desired outcome, not saving lives, but smearing the President.

    Still waiting for all those actions President Trump refused to take.

    Iowan2 (bbb95d)

  112. January 20, 2017.

    A good real President would have had a solid administration with good people in place ready to respond to any emergency at any time in the most “material” way while he unified the people and preserved their morale.

    nk (1d9030)

  113. 114. I agree. It’s a good thing the people of the United States elected President Trump…soon…twice

    Iowan2 (bbb95d)

  114. Iowan2 (bbb95d) — 3/21/2020 @ 5:39 am

    You so funny!

    In a sick, cloying pathetic sort of way that reeks of un-American cult worship…

    Ragspierre (d9bec9)

  115. 112. Coronavirus cases doubling faster in the U.S. than any other country, report says.

    Welp, that ain’t good.

    Why do YOU think that aint good?

    Iowan2 (bbb95d)

  116. March 21, 2020.

    President Pence will let people who know what they’re doing do their jobs.

    nk (1d9030)

  117. Dave at 108. That New Jersey family is the model of how the virus came to be in the first place. Just replace “New Jersey family” with “pangolins” or “bats” or “chickens” or “pigs” or whichever. One member of the group gets it somehow, within the close proximity of the group it bounces back and forth among them, and one out of eleven becomes eleven out of eleven.

    nk (1d9030)

  118. Trump is a President the way a piece of rope is a pool cue.

    nk (1d9030)

  119. The U.S. economy is deteriorating more quickly than was expected just days ago as extraordinary measures designed to curb the coronavirus keep 84 million Americans penned in their homes and cause the near-total shutdown of most businesses.

    In a single 24-hour period, governors of three of the largest states — California, New York and Illinois — ordered residents to stay home except to buy food and medicine, while the governor of Pennsylvania ordered the closure of nonessential businesses. Across the globe, health officials are struggling to cope with the growing number of patients, with the World Health Organization noting that while it required three months to reach 100,000 cases, it took only 12 days to hit another 100,000.

    The resulting economic meltdown, which is sending several million workers streaming into the unemployment line, is outpacing the federal government’s efforts to respond. As the Senate on Friday raced to complete work on a financial rescue package, the White House and key lawmakers were dramatically expanding its scope, pushing the legislation far beyond the original $1 trillion price tag.
    –HotAir

    I dunno who wasn’t expecting this, but all the above is bad, bad news.

    Ragspierre (d9bec9)

  120. 121. So are you saying Democrat Governors locking down entired states was a terrible move?

    Iowan2 (bbb95d)

  121. the World Health Organization noting that while it required three months to reach 100,000 cases, it took only 12 days to hit another 100,000.

    Because viral spread is not linear.

    Iowan2 (bbb95d)

  122. The Washington Post. LOL! Yeah, we can TRUST THEM to report fairly on Trump. And of course they have GREAT INSIGHT into the White House, with their anonymous sources “who are familiar with”. Again, anyone who thinks the WaPo is giving you the facts about anything to to with Trump is absurd. They’re just writing Fairly Tales for Lefties.

    rcocean (1a839e)

  123. Newsome is doing fine in the polls, despite shutting down an entire state, when it was unnecessary. People outside the LA-SoCal, SF Bay metro areas don’t need to be locked-down. That was a political move that will very harmful to small business.

    rcocean (1a839e)

  124. The problem is the President doesn’t know how to convey hope or optimism without lying. I mean, he doesn’t know how to do anything without lying, because is a liar. Here’s an example:

    “When you have 15 people, and the 15 within a couple of days is going to be down to close to zero,” he said, “that’s a pretty good job we’ve done.”

    It’s 100% bullsh*t, and moreover it’s bullsh*t designed to make himself look good. When President Obama said stuff that turned out to be untrue, he was raked over the coals for lying. When Trump does it he is defended to the hilt by folks unwilling or unable to see their beloved President is a feckless self-aggrandizing fool. Good riddance whenever we are so lucky to see him retire to Maralago permanently.

    JRH (52aed3)

  125. JRH (52aed3) — 3/21/2020 @ 7:09 am

    My personal fav is “It’s baked into the cake”, as though being a pathological liar is something we should all expect of a POTUS. As Mr. Corona has taught us, the recipe for the cake keeps changing all the time. Leadership can actually be a very useful and important attribute.

    Ragspierre (d9bec9)

  126. We all should have ignored the warnings. Wuhan virus is less deadly than the flu (150 deaths vs 6000 in the US in the same two months). People freak out about Italy, but they have a very old population and a poor healthcare system.

    I don’t expect US deaths to exceed 5,000, compared to the flu which us usually 20,000 – 80,000.

    Patrick Henry, the 2nd (43976c)

  127. There is no date when we could have stockpiled the masks and vents we’ll need.

    We could have done this quite a while ago. You know that Boy Scout motto, Be Prepared.

    However, that’s not a fault for which only Trump can be blamed. Every POTUS before him should have done something about it, but didn’t.

    Kishnevi (e2dc4e)

  128. In the last 5 years, US deaths from flu were 23,000 to 61,000 a year and hospitalizations were 280,000 to 890,000 a year.

    DRJ (15874d)

  129. We all should have ignored the warnings. Wuhan virus is less deadly than the flu (150 deaths vs 6000 in the US in the same two months). People freak out about Italy, but they have a very old population and a poor healthcare system.

    I don’t expect US deaths to exceed 5,000, compared to the flu which us usually 20,000 – 80,000.

    You cannot be serious, but if you are, you are wildly wrong, I’m sorry to say. People need to take this very seriously.

    Patterico (115b1f)

  130. 131. What’s your counterargument, Pat? What numbers can you show me in support of your argument that go beyond “nuh uh?” Flattening the curve will destroy our nation in an act of economic suicide by taking away the ability of the low-risk, young, and healthy (but I repeat myself) to participate in this economy — at all.

    Gryph (08c844)

  131. 120. And it will be even worse news of Fauci gets his way and these lockdown orders go federal.

    Gryph (08c844)

  132. Gryph,

    Young people are at risk. More than what original reports lead us to believe:

    Early data analyzed by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) shows that younger Americans are at substantial risk of experiencing serious medical problems from the coronavirus sweeping the globe.

    That data runs counter to some of the early messaging from public health officials in other parts of the world.

    A new CDC analysis of more than 2,400 cases of COVID-19 that have occurred in the United States in the last month shows that between 1 in 7 and 1 in 5 people between the ages of 20 and 44 in the sample of those who are confirmed cases require hospitalization, a level significantly higher than the hospitalization rates for influenza. The true percentage of young people who require hospitalization is likely much less, because many remain asymptomatic.

    Between 2 percent and 4 percent of confirmed cases among people that young are admitted to intensive care units. The fatality rate is low, only 0.1 percent to 0.2 percent.

    But younger Americans are contracting the virus at the same rates as those who are older. The initial round of data actually found more people between the ages of 20 and 44 who landed in the hospital than those over the age of 75 who wound up in treatment, even though mortality rates were lower for the younger set.

    Dana (4fb37f)

  133. Someone on the music forum I belong to posted a graph from the Financial Times. (The original graph seems to be behind a paywall.) The US infection rate is actually increasing faster than China or Italy’s rates at a comparable point.

    Kishnevi (0db329)

  134. However, that’s not a fault for which only Trump can be blamed. Every POTUS before him should have done something about it, but didn’t.

    Sure it is. It’s now happening daily. Orange Man Bad.

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  135. 134. You know what I’m at risk of, Dana? Losing my job. And if there is a lockdown of any kind in my hometown I won’t have a job to go back to. So I will continue to avoid hospitals and nursing homes, and I will choose how to socially distance myself from those I personally know who are infirm and/or suffer from pulmonary compromise. I don’t need anyone else to tell me how to conduct my affairs — especially not WHO wonks and FedGov flunkies.

    There’s only one endgame to this: immunity. That is the way this will end because it has to be. Any other measures are no more than delaying the inevitable.

    Gryph (08c844)

  136. 135. So what if we’re not at a comparable point? What if the infection curve is actually at a later stage than all the policy gurus have assumed thus far?

    Gryph (08c844)

  137. Here is a simple chart that makes it clear why social distancing can help stem the spread of the virus.

    “Initial studies have suggested that one person infected with coronavirus can transmit the virus to approximately 2.5 people,” he explained.

    Signer added that initial research also shows those who tested positive for COVID-19, the disease caused by the new coronavirus, were asymptomatic for an average of five days.

    “The next assumption we made is that after five days, a person will begin experiencing symptoms, will quarantine and no longer infect others,” he said.

    If one person transmits the infection to an average of 2.5 people, and those 2.5 people each transmit to another 2.5 people and so on, within 30 days, 406 people would be infected.

    And so on.

    It is not only a way to stop the fast spread of infection, but helps to keep hospitals from being overwhelmed, leading to not enough ventilators, hospital beds, etc., which in turn could lead to healthcare rationing for the infirmed.

    Dana (4fb37f)

  138. 139. You know what else helps keep hospitals from being overwhelmed? Socially distancing the high-risk and letting the rest of us live our lives so we can make our house payments and raise our children without fear.

    Gryph (08c844)

  139. Italy, but they have a very old population and a poor healthcare system.

    Whereas Americans are widely known to be in fantastic health.

    Make America Ordered Again (23f793)

  140. Gryph,

    I certainly understand the fears about losing one’s job. That is the second to the last thing I would want to have happen to anyone at this time. While I don’t know which state you’re in, I know that in California, there are exceptions to the governor’s stay-at-home order

    “…except as needed to maintain continuity of operations of the federal critical infrastructure sectors…The federal government has identified 16 critical infrastructure sectors whose assets, systems, and networks, whether physical or virtual, are considered so vital to the United States that their incapacitation or destruction would have a debilitating effect on security, economic security, public health or safety, or any combination thereof. I order that Californians working in these 16 critical infrastructure sectors may continue their work because of the importance of these sectors to Californians’ health and well-being.”

    I hope you stay healthy. I hope the people around you stay healthy. But I don’t think it’s accurate to refer to this as a “blind panic”. There is plenty of evidence that disproves your descriptor.

    Dana (4fb37f)

  141. 142. Blind panic. Absolutely. I would characterize what is happening in Washington State, New York, and California as blind panic. If you believe it is not, then what would you call what is happening there, and at what threshold would you consider it blind panic?

    And doesn’t it bother you at all that government wonks get to decide what is “essential?” Even just a little bit? “We’ll close down everything except what we say won’t have to close down” is itself rather disturbing to me irrespective of the reason it’s done.

    Gryph (08c844)

  142. 139. You know what else helps keep hospitals from being overwhelmed? Socially distancing the high-risk and letting the rest of us live our lives so we can make our house payments and raise our children without fear.

    Gryph (08c844) — 3/21/2020 @ 11:48 am

    This virus incubates for 2 weeks while spreading rapidly. You cannot intelligently distinguish groups in a way that will slow the spread of the virus.

    Also, there isn’t really a ‘high risk’ group. Even the young are affected terribly by this. Stats have been pretty misleading because most are only thinking about deaths, and not terrible stays in the ICU and lung damage, but even younger folks are at a lot of risk.

    And guess what: if you can’t breath for a week and have to have oxygen pumped into your blood mechanically, you aren’t going to be at work anyway, and if 100 times as many ‘low risk’ people are in that situation, a lot more of them won’t make it.

    We have never lived in a society where government doesn’t have some power and authority… the real question is what justifies its decisions. Many times the government gets it wrong. Cops do unethical stuff, leaders steal, etc. But if there is a strong reason to protect millions of lives, yes of course the government has authority to act.

    And you may really think cops are ready to run down and throw you in your closet, but aside from closing down certain very dangerous business models, the approach is pretty light. I’d say too light. The lines outside smaller grocery stores are very tight.

    My final point: the government isn’t actually strong enough to control the people. The people who do not buy into social distancing… there’s very little we can do about it. We don’t have enough cops to keep track of that. That’s why this is all about effective communication and our people making the right choices now.

    Dustin (b18b7a)

  143. Civil disobedience is a very effective means the people have when they don’t support a law or policy. Prohibition never had a chance.

    Ragspierre (d9bec9)

  144. Kishnevi (e2dc4e) — 3/21/2020 @ 8:28 am

    There is no date when we could have stockpiled the masks and vents we’ll need.

    We could have done this quite a while ago. You know that Boy Scout motto, Be Prepared.

    That’s easy to say but hard to put numbers too. If we need double the numbers of vents we use normally it would have taken a while to actually acquire those, at least several months if not closer to a year or more. Then someone would have to justify spending millions on vents to sit in a warehouse. I’d heard at one point that we had a stockpile of vents but no one says how big it is and I suspect that is because it isn’t very big. Having one big enough for what we’ll need is not something that would have been an easy sell until a couple of days ago.

    frosty (f27e97)

  145. Gryph (08c844) — 3/21/2020 @ 11:20 am

    What’s your counterargument, Pat? What numbers can you show me in support of your argument that go beyond “nuh uh?”

    If irony was a bitch it would slap you into last week. You’ve been shown these numbers multiple times and your counterargument has been “nuh uh”.

    frosty (f27e97)

  146. frosty (f27e97) — 3/21/2020 @ 4:07 pm

    Correction; VP Pence said earlier today we have 20k vents in the stockpile. I think we’ll be able to consume that quickly.

    frosty (f27e97)

  147. #FakeNewsCNN has (in effect) a 3-minute version of the Republicans for Rule of Law ad, featuring three times as much double-talk and disinformation from the Dear Leader.

    Dave (1bb933)

  148. Here’s a much different take… from a fairly sensible, fair-minded lefty…

    https://althouse.blogspot.com/2020/03/president-trump-has-taken-historic.html

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  149. Althouse is cool. I’m glad she’s still writing. I haven’t read her in white a while.

    Make America Ordered Again (23f793)

  150. And here’s a WaPo article from January 21st, 11 days before the aquittal: “Trump administration announces mandatory quarantines in response to coronavirus.” [article was from 1/31, not 1/21]…

    The White House declared a “public health emergency” and — beginning on Sunday at 5 p.m. — will bar non-U.S. citizens who recently visited China from entering the United States, subject to a few exemptions…. Health and Human Services Secretary Alex Azar also said the Trump administration would quarantine any Americans who had visited China’s Hubei province, where the disease originated, within the past 14 days….

    President Trump so far has remained uncharacteristically muted on the coronavirus and praised China’s extraordinary response to the growing outbreak. On Wednesday, he tweeted photos of his Situation Room briefing and said his administration was working closely with China to contain the outbreak….

    That happened at a time when the World Health Organization was recommending that there be no travel restrictions.

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  151. Yeah, right, while he was smuggling coronavirus into the United States inside Ivankas’s line of Chinese-made clothing and accessories the same way his grandfather smuggled gonorrhea into the Yukon gold fields inside his saloon girls.

    nk (1d9030)

  152. Ha-ha

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)


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