Patterico's Pontifications

3/20/2020

California on Lockdown; Senators Sold Stock After Coronavirus Briefing While Reassuring Public

Filed under: General — Patterico @ 8:22 am



So California is on lockdown:

California ordered its 40 million residents to stay at home except for essential activities beginning Thursday night in the largest such lockdown in the U.S., as the nation’s total coronavirus cases rose to more than 14,000 and an intensifying outbreak in Europe pushed State Department officials to advise citizens not to travel abroad.

Gov. Newsom estimates that 56% of Californians will be infected within eight weeks. That seems high to me; the experts I have heard have said 30-50% of the U.S. population is likely to be infected in the first year. That said, it stands to reason that the virus will spread more readily through populated areas, and California has those in abundant supply.

The numbers out of China are looking better, but a) they might be phony and b) China’s response was quite a bit more vigorous than ours (once they got around to ending the cover-up, that is). In Italy things are … not so good. Their death toll as of yesterday was 3405, which had overtaken China’s reported numbers since the beginning of the outbreak. Italy extended its quarantine to the entire country eleven days ago. We’re about two weeks behind them. Buckle up. It’s coming.

Speaking of a government covering up the danger posed by the virus … we have news that several U.S. senators sold stock shortly after a closed briefing on January 24 that warned of the dangers the virus posed. Some of the GOP senators were telling the country everything was fine even as their stock was being dumped.

Soon after he offered public assurances that the government was ready to battle the coronavirus, the powerful chairman of the Senate Intelligence Committee, Richard Burr, sold off a significant percentage of his stocks, unloading between $628,000 and $1.72 million of his holdings on Feb. 13 in 33 separate transactions.

. . . .

On Thursday, Burr came under fire after NPR obtained a secret recording from Feb. 27, in which the lawmaker gave a VIP group at an exclusive social club a much more dire preview of the economic impact of the coronavirus than what he had told the public.

. . . .

Burr’s public comments had been considerably less dire. In a Feb. 7 op-ed that he co-authored with another senator, he assured the public that “the United States today is better prepared than ever before to face emerging public health threats, like the coronavirus.” He wrote, “No matter the outbreak or threat, Congress and the federal government have been vigilant in identifying gaps in its readiness efforts and improving its response capabilities.”

To be fair, on February 27 it was fairly obvious to people paying attention that we were headed for a tremendous amount of economic pain. The stock market slump had already started by then (Trump blamed it on the Democrat debates!) and I said on February 28:

National Economic Council head Larry Kudlow says the Trump administration has “contained” the “caronavirus”, while the CDC has said of a spread of the virus in the U.S.: “It’s not so much of a question of if this will happen anymore but rather more of a question of exactly when this will happen.”

Americans will have to decide whether the Trump administration and its top officials like Kudlow would be more likely to put Donald Trump’s interests above those of the United States, and whether they would say false things to calm markets and benefit Trump politically. There is a rich history of material from the past three years with which Americans could make such a decision. A lot of it is in books.

I should have included “GOP allies in Congress” in the group of people putting Trump, and their personal stock holdings, above the interests of the country they were failing to warn.

Burr is not the only U.S. senator who dumped stock after the briefing. The names include Sen. Kelly Loeffler, a GOP senator from Georgia and the wife of the CEO and Chair of the New York Stock Exchange. As she was dumping millions of dollars worth of stock (and buying up Citrix, a company that offers teleworking software) she was telling the citizens Trump had everything well in hand:

Sen Loeffler says she was told about the sale three weeks later. To my knowledge, she hasn’t said whether she had told her broker about the nature of the closed door meeting.

Other Senators who dumped stock after the closed briefing were our own Sen. Dianne Feinstein, Democrat from California (“between” $1.5 million and $6 million) and Senator Jim Inhofe, Republican from Oklahoma (“up to” $450,000). (Senator Ron Johnson has been named as having sold stock but even lefty site Raw Story admits it was sales of private stock in a family business having nothing to do with coronavirus.)

Frankly, I am less incensed at these folks selling stocks as I am that they were not (to the extent they were not) out there warning the public how dire the situation was. All the stock sales show is what they assuredly believed privately — to the extent they were involved in the sales. For Sens. Burr and Loeffler to publicly assert everything was fine was patently false and indeed dangerous.

I’m sure there will be investigations and consequences. This is likely to have a real impact on the GOP’s chances of holding the Senate.

237 Responses to “California on Lockdown; Senators Sold Stock After Coronavirus Briefing While Reassuring Public”

  1. Senators Sold Stock After Coronavirus Briefing While Reassuring Public

    Of course they did.

    Make America Ordered Again (23f793)

  2. I would highly recommend never linking to RawStory. There are many left-wing sources that, while biased, aim to be accurate. RawStory makes no such attempt and should generally be dismissed as drivel.

    On this story:

    I’m interested in whether they had any control over these sales. Are their assets in a blind trust? In that case I’m not really bothered if someone else sold their assets even as they reassured the public. OTOH if they were reassuring the public as they directed a sale of their assets, that’s a problem.

    Also, aside from Burr and Loeffler, it’s not clear if the others mentioned were also reassuring the public as they sold, which to me makes the situation different.

    nate_w (5efffe)

  3. Well, that news cemented our decision to not road-trip to San Diego next month to visit Miss Montagu.

    Paul Montagu (df60ed)

  4. I’m not sure it would’ve then wise for these Congress critters to ring that bell. This strikes to me the usual hedging based on the information they had. Information on the outbreak was (and still is) extremely fluid and there were a lot of unknowns.

    However, this has the markings of insider information that every congressional critter take advantage of (which they’re immune to insider info laws)… that I hope sparks bipartisan outrage.

    I mean, how else do you explain out many of the congressional critters end up being fabulous wealthy?

    whembly (c30c83)

  5. Senator Burr has requested an ethics committee investigation of his stock sales. From the description of what he did, it doesn’t appear that there was anything that loooked like insider trading.

    John B Boddie (286277)

  6. (which they’re immune to insider info laws)

    Chris Collins would take issue with that.

    Background
    In August 2016, Collins became the largest shareholder in a company called Innate Immunotherapeutics.[93] In May 2017, House ethics investigators “began probing Collins for his role in recruiting investors to buy stock in Innate Immunotherapeutics after several complaints were filed.”[94] Members of Congress are explicitly barred from trading stocks using insider information.[94] In October 2017, the Office of Congressional Ethics (OCE) said they had “substantial reason” to believe that Collins had improperly used his public office to benefit Innate, and had forwarded nonpublic information to other investors.[95] The OCE said Collins sent nonpublic information to investors about drug trials and that he visited the National Institutes of Health to discuss a drug’s clinical trial, violating House ethics rules.[95] The House Ethics Committee did not appoint a subcommittee to continue investigating Collins’ case.[96] On August 8, 2018, the U.S. Securities and Exchange Commission filed a complaint in federal court on Collins and two other defendants for “illegal insider trading”.[97]

    Arrest
    According to the federal government, on June 22, 2017, the CEO of Innate Immunotherapeutics sent an email to the company’s board of directors, including Collins. The e-mail explained that an important drug trial for the company had failed. Collins allegedly received this news while attending a picnic at the White House and, upon seeing the email, immediately phoned his son and instructed him to sell shares in the company. According to the allegations, the sale allowed Collins and his family to avoid around $570,000 in losses. The shares eventually dropped around 90% once news about the drug trial became public.[66]

    On August 8, 2018, Collins, his son Cameron, and the father of Cameron’s fiancée, Stephen Zarsky, were arrested by the FBI and charged with wire fraud, conspiracy to commit securities fraud, securities fraud, and lying to the FBI.[64][65][98] Later that day, Speaker of the US House of Representatives Paul Ryan announced that he had removed Collins from his position on the House Energy and Commerce Committee. He also referred the matter to the House Ethics Committee.[64][66][99]

    Resignation from Congress and guilty plea
    On September 30, 2019, it was reported that Collins would change his plea to guilty.[100] and resign his seat in the House on October 1, 2019. His resignation, which was previously presented to the US House Speaker Nancy Pelosi and New York Governor Andrew Cuomo, became official on October 1 after it was presented on the floor of the US House of Representatives.[4] The same day, Collins traveled to a Manhattan federal courthouse and pleaded guilty to insider trading and lying to the FBI.

    On December 9, 2019, Collins and the SEC agreed that Collins will “be permanently barred from acting as an officer or director of any public company”. In January 2020, federal prosecutors recommended that Collins receive the maximum prison sentence, nearly five years in prison. On January 17, 2020, Judge Vernon S. Broderick sentenced Collins to 26 months in prison. He was scheduled to begin the sentence on March 17 but it was later delayed to April 21.

    Colonel Klink (Red) (9878f6)

  7. Two weeks ago:

    The number of coronavirus cases and deaths spiked again on Wednesday in Italy, which has reported 3,089 people infected and 107 deaths over all.

    Current U.S. numbers: 14,549 cases in the U.S., 218 deaths (as of yesterday).

    Italy’s numbers as of yesterday: 41,035 cases, 3405 deaths.

    Patterico (115b1f)

  8. I’d try to separate those that had blind trusts or something like it from those more directly involved in the sales. I think Feinstein has a blind trust and it sounds like Burr had minimal involvement. The Loeffler thing seems sketchy af and I don’t know the details on Inhofe. Investigating this seems like a very good idea. I’d also be careful with the timing. It really didn’t take insider info to anticipate a stock drop. When they shutdown Wuhan and then other Chinese cities the impact on the supply chain was pretty clear.

    frosty (f27e97)

  9. Props on mentioning Feinstein, she’s being left out of most media reports on these stock sells.

    As to the lockdown, due to squirrel damage to my trucks’ electrical system and subsequent loss of data on engine chip, I needed to put 50 mi on it so it would pass a smog check. I chose to drive to winery Tuesday and pick up two cases. Glad I did.

    harkin (b64479)

  10. “Insider trading” is a very specific thing. Most people, including congress-critters, can’t be guilty of insider trading, altho they can be involved in trades that stink to the general public.

    Most people who are sophisticated traders get information that Joe Lunchpail does not, and that can be from just reading the paper, understanding how to read charts, or listening to the news.

    Case in point, decades ago a news story broke that there had been a bad freeze in the coffee-growing areas of South America. If I’d had any money, I would have taken a futures position on coffee. Now, anybody had the same access to that information, but not everybody was even aware of it.

    Ragspierre (d9bec9)

  11. “Insider trading” is a very specific thing. Most people, including congress-critters, can’t be guilty of insider trading, altho they can be involved in trades that stink to the general public.

    Most people who are sophisticated traders get information that Joe Lunchpail does not, and that can be from just reading the paper, understanding how to read charts, or listening to the news.

    Everything you said is true and I don’t believe what was done here was illegal. But perhaps it should be. Receiving high-level confidential briefings contained unreleased information is clearly more “inside” information than just not bothering to or knowing how to understand public info.

    Make America Ordered Again (23f793)

  12. This is Crap. Supporting (and pushing!) a message that Coronavirus isn’t a big deal while you did something else entirely in private? Total crap.

    Time123 (b0628d)

  13. A relatively simple and painless patch would be to embargo all trading by members of congress and their families for a set number of hours. A breach of the embargo would be an ethics violation, at minimum.

    Ragspierre (d9bec9)

  14. Good idea.

    Make America Ordered Again (23f793)

  15. Burr’s statement that “I relied solely on public news reports to guide my decision” is akin to the politician who says, “The first I heard about it was when I saw it on CNN.”

    Paul Montagu (df60ed)

  16. Ahem … err … these are politicians we are talking about, right?

    nk (1d9030)

  17. Sold stock Jan 24 — hmmm… maybe they read this blog and thought there was a groundswell for impeachment and the president was just days away from removal.

    Fortunately, most here weren’t going let a deadly virus threatening every person on the planet get in the way of more pressing concerns.

    Munroe (b80e5f)

  18. Time123 (b0628d) — 3/20/2020 @ 9:12 am

    This is Crap. Supporting (and pushing!) a message that Coronavirus isn’t a big deal while you did something else entirely in private? Total crap.

    This is 1000% true. I don’t know if all of these are insider trading but that doesn’t mean I don’t think this should be investigated or that I don’t think there should be consequences. There should be consequences.

    frosty (f27e97)

  19. Frankly, I am less incensed at these folks selling stocks as I am that they were not (to the extent they were not) out there warning the public how dire the situation was.

    This does appear pretty bad, though the two variables don’t have to be mutually dependent. It is possible and entirely rational to say, “I don’t think the coronavirus spread is going to be particularly bad, but at the same time I recognize that Americans are likely to panic and do silly stuff like hoard toilet paper, so I had better prepare for a drop in the market driven by skittish investors.” This doesn’t mean that I am automatically willing to let the politicians or their investment managers off the hook, but I do see a plausible scenario where one could hold conflicting beliefs about the pandemic and the market, especially if we determine it was the investment managers who were making these decision.

    JVW (54fd0b)

  20. What ought to be considered is should there be some sort of rule that the investment funds of politicians, even if held in a blind trust, have restrictions placed upon them during times like these. I recognize how hard it would be to determine when the restrictions kick in, so perhaps this idea is a non-starter.

    JVW (54fd0b)

  21. 1. Ban ownership in individual stock by MOC. Index funds only.
    2. All funds managed via blind trust.
    3. Immediate family will have all trades in individual stocks evaluated for potential inside information.
    4. Anyone found guilty of using insider information from a MOC or staff will, in addition to other penalties, be bared from trading in stocks or bonds, being a corporate officer, running a charity, or serving on the BOD for a corporation.

    1-4 to also apply to Judicial brand and executive branch political appointees. Especially the immediate family of the president and vice president.

    Would allow a 12 month grace period for newly elected members to transition their funds.

    Time123 (b0628d)

  22. JVW, I like your idea but it doesn’t go far enough.

    Time123 (b0628d)

  23. Always interesting that we tend to slam people for selling in the face of bad news, but we loves people who buy. You can’t have one without the other. Just a stray thought…

    Ragspierre (d9bec9)

  24. Always interesting that we tend to slam people for selling in the face of bad news, but we loves people who buy. You can’t have one without the other. Just a stray thought…

    Good observation. Entirely correct.

    Make America Ordered Again (23f793)

  25. If indeed someone had their funds in a blind trust, then I don’t see what the problem is. That’s the whole point of a blind trust. Sometimes the trust managers are smart or lucky. It’s unfair to hold that against the Senator.

    If they didn’t, and it seems like at least Burr didn’t, then it likely stinks to high holy heaven, even if not illegal.

    Bored Lawyer (56c962)

  26. Clinton Foundation, Trump’s foreign lobbyist and US government stuffed hotels, insider trading by the same guys hiding the pandemic for as long as possible (betraying their people).

    The question is not where do you draw the line. There’s no line. Ethics concepts simply do not work if everyone at the top refuses to apply them or live up to them. Think about Trump’s impeachment strategy… just refuse to let the process function, wait, and that’s it… his party won’t just hand the other party a win, so who cares? If obstruction is good enough you can even cite the attempt at justice as the real problem.

    At least we can see where this is going. A government that just doesn’t function leads to instability. We can all invest accordingly I guess. Who’s making the missiles?

    Dustin (b18b7a)

  27. Always interesting that we tend to slam people for selling in the face of bad news, but we loves people who buy. You can’t have one without the other. Just a stray thought…

    Good observation. Entirely correct.

    Make America Ordered Again (23f793) — 3/20/2020 @ 10:05 am

    Entirely correct as a general statement.
    Entirely wrong when one party has information from their job as a congressman that the other party does not.

    Time123 (b0628d)

  28. Texas Governor Abbott issued a partial lockdown effective Midnight tonight. Houston officials say they will resist a complete lockdown.

    DRJ (15874d)

  29. If indeed someone had their funds in a blind trust, then I don’t see what the problem is. That’s the whole point of a blind trust. Sometimes the trust managers are smart or lucky. It’s unfair to hold that against the Senator.
    If they didn’t, and it seems like at least Burr didn’t, then it likely stinks to high holy heaven, even if not illegal.
    Bored Lawyer (56c962) — 3/20/2020 @ 10:08 am

    It would be nice to confirm that there were no communications between the good Senator (and/or family members/friends) after any/all closed briefings that he attended and the manager of his “blind” trust. I.e., that it truly was “blind.”
    Pardon my skepticism — it’s a character fault of mine, I guess…. : )

    ColoComment (2429fb)

  30. Meanwhile, Italy imposes martial law to enforce lockdown.

    https://www.cnn.com/2020/03/20/europe/italy-military-coronavirus-intl/index.html

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  31. It would be nice to confirm that there were no communications between the good Senator (and/or family members/friends) after any/all closed briefings that he attended and the manager of his “blind” trust. I.e., that it truly was “blind.

    I don’t disagree, though as always it is very hard to prove a negative. If we find evidence of communication then we should come at them with the entire weight of the law. But if we don’t find evidence then I think we should take the Senators at their word (and this includes Sen. Feinstein and any other Democrat who may later be implicated) and assume that they have handled this ethically. And I can’t believe I just wrote that.

    JVW (54fd0b)

  32. This is likely to have a real impact on the GOP’s chances of holding the Senate.

    If Trump wins, the GOP will hold the Senate. If he doesn’t, they won’t.

    As far as political fallout, the situation is currently so untenable and chaotic that there is no way to predict how it will all play out. There is no way that a nationwide lockdown can 1) work, 2) fail to bankrupt the country, and 3) do anything meaningful about survival and hospital intake rates that could not be done by self-interested withdrawal.

    Prediction: by the middle of April we will have gone to targeted isolation, where those who are at risk sequester themselves, the economy gets moving again, and such financial support and logistical assistance as are needed by sequ3estered person are provided by government, neighbors or NGOs.

    Because a financial collapse kills tens of millions.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  33. How about this as a rule: all senators’ stock trades are public and the voters can decide if that’s what they want? The more ethics rules we need to patch ethics rules we have just demonstrates how utterly worthless ethics rules are. I just love it that Rep Waters leads the House Banking Committee.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  34. How about a “Prisoner’s Dilemma” plan where old folks try to beat the rush and get sick now before the hospitals fill up?

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  35. So I wonder what he was told in that briefing that made him sell? Any way we can find that out?

    Time123 (b0628d)

  36. About 96% of Italy’s fatalities are people 60 or older, and 86% are 70 or older.

    The disease has taken the greatest toll on Italy’s elderly population. Figures released Thursday by the Health Institute of Italy indicated that 86% of fatalities were among those aged over 70. People aged 60 to 69 made up a further 10% of the deaths.

    https://www.cnn.com/2020/03/20/europe/italy-military-coronavirus-intl/index.html

    This suggests pretty clearly who is at risk, and who needs to isolate. The other 4% probably know who they are, too (hint: not athletes).

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  37. 31… this is the rational and proportional response that I hope saves the day.

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  38. Some rational voices are now being raised in criticism of this national “lockdown.” Every state, so far as I’m aware, has wide variance in demographics among urban, suburban, rural, and whatever else you can name locations. Not every one of those has the same needs for isolation and sources for supplies as all the others. Local officials are best placed to evaluate their constituents’ needs. If they guess wrong, then targeted electoral consequences follow. That is not so easy on a state or federal level.

    It was good to see the Houston government opposing the lockdown of their city. Some other voices (blog addresses only – no live links provided, to avoid messing up the comment):

    John Hinderaker (https://www.powerlineblog.com/archives/2020/03/stop-the-insane-overreaction.php)
    Craig Pirrong (https://streetwiseprofessor.com/are-we-destroying-society-in-order-to-save-it/)
    Warren Meyer (http://coyoteblog.com/coyote_blog/2020/03/a-letter-to-the-harvard-president-on-covid-19-response-wherein-coyote-actually-sortof-makes-an-intersectional-argument.html)
    William Jacobson (https://legalinsurrection.com/2020/03/ghost-towns-usa/)

    ColoComment (2429fb)

  39. Well, ok. I guess the links are “live” by default. Stupid me. : (

    ColoComment (2429fb)

  40. 31. and 36. Ditto, gentlemen Ditto.

    Gryph (08c844)

  41. It’s amazing how a high risk environment turns to chaos when there’s not effective leadership.

    Time123 (797615)

  42. Armchair quarterbacks are The Best!

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  43. CH, Do you think there’s been effective leadership on dealing with the Coronavirus? Are you happy with where we’re at today and do you think we made the right decisions and the right time?

    Time123 (b0628d)

  44. Time123 (b0628d) — 3/20/2020 @ 11:19 am

    So I wonder what he was told in that briefing that made him sell? Any way we can find that out?

    That is another very interesting question that I’ve also been wondering. It’s not like we don’t have sat images of China or human assets on the ground. I’m trying to remember if Trump changed direction before or after Iran got out of control.

    We’re ascribing incompetence or bad motives to Trump’s turnaround and those are always options. But it’s interesting that his and Johnson’s original plan was to let this play out and they both did a fairly abrupt turnaround. Germany also had the same plan. I remember an early German press briefing and the attitude I got from the back and forth was the Germans didn’t think they’d actually get something like a filthy Chinese bat virus. They’ve changed their tune very slowly because of the papiere bitte problem.

    frosty (f27e97)

  45. Frosty, Know if anyone has put together a timeline on this that’s easy to share? I can tell you that the situation in China was known to be serious late last year. I have friends who were working around the clock on supply chain contingency plans. But a ‘what was known when’ would be great to put together.

    Time123 (b0628d)

  46. 37 – great post.

    Kind of surprised that almost all the comments are on the stock deal which, while newsworthy and need to be investigated. are microscopically important in comparison to the of entire states prohibiting the free movement of its citizens. Politicians have been putting their own interests over the needs of the people for quite awhile now. Look at all the millionaires who entered congress with relatively no assets.
    __ _

    Regarding the lockdown, I’ve been digesting this one on the lack of concrete data since this morning:

    “ The one situation where an entire, closed population was tested was the Diamond Princess cruise ship and its quarantine passengers. The case fatality rate there was 1.0%, but this was a largely elderly population, in which the death rate from Covid-19 is much higher.

    Projecting the Diamond Princess mortality rate onto the age structure of the U.S. population, the death rate among people infected with Covid-19 would be 0.125%. But since this estimate is based on extremely thin data — there were just seven deaths among the 700 infected passengers and crew — the real death rate could stretch from five times lower (0.025%) to five times higher (0.625%). It is also possible that some of the passengers who were infected might die later, and that tourists may have different frequencies of chronic diseases — a risk factor for worse outcomes with SARS-CoV-2 infection — than the general population. Adding these extra sources of uncertainty, reasonable estimates for the case fatality ratio in the general U.S. population vary from 0.05% to 1%.

    That huge range markedly affects how severe the pandemic is and what should be done. A population-wide case fatality rate of 0.05% is lower than seasonal influenza. If that is the true rate, locking down the world with potentially tremendous social and financial consequences may be totally irrational.“

    https://www.statnews.com/2020/03/17/a-fiasco-in-the-making-as-the-coronavirus-pandemic-takes-hold-we-are-making-decisions-without-reliable-data/
    __ _

    harkin (b64479)

  47. I think transparency is the best way, Kevin 32, but not just for Senators. All elected federal officials should have to be transparent about their financial interests and actions, unless they use blind trusts or divest.

    DRJ (15874d)

  48. 42… yes, for the most part, I think the decisions have been reasonably sound, given the circumstances. Am I happy with where we’re at today? Please tell me how any sane person is happy with this.

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  49. 46… even blind trusts can be misused. Transparency is almost always best.

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  50. Weren’t the Diamond Princess folks forced to quarantine/distance themselves while on board to avoid transmission? The results there may argue in favor of quarantine instead of against it.

    DRJ (15874d)

  51. True, Haiku 48, but a real blind trust is a compromise I would make for a politician who wants some degree of financial privacy.

    DRJ (15874d)

  52. Time123 (b0628d) — 3/20/2020 @ 12:11 pm

    No, we’ll have to search for one. I still haven’t started keeping my own notes which is an oversight. I might go back and try to reconstruct my own activities just for something to look back on. We are living through a unique time in history. It’s easy to say that and maybe I’m being dramatic. I still remember on 9/11 thinking there was before today, today, and after today and those three times would be different. This is 9/11 for the entire world in slow motion. Does anyone think Europe will be the same after this? The US? It’s not possible for it to be the same.

    frosty (f27e97)

  53. @46 I think they should probably all have blind trusts. Politicians are just fallible people (probably more fallible than most) and it’s got to be really really really tempting to use information they have to improve their financial situation, even just a little around the edges where maybe no one will really notice. Better to take the temptation away and leave them on the same footing as the rest of us.

    Nic (896fdf)

  54. OT: I found this interesting:
    https://twitter.com/datacrat/status/1229547427767570433?s=20

    Then, I saw this:
    https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/2020/world/corona-simulator/

    Great graphic describing quarantine and various social distancing mitigation results.

    whembly (c30c83)

  55. Timelines:

    Rolling Stone

    Snopes

    Bulwark

    More at The Guardian, NBC, and others.

    Plus The Onion for laughs.

    DRJ (15874d)

  56. Weren’t the Diamond Princess folks forced to quarantine/distance themselves while on board to avoid transmission? The results there may argue in favor of quarantine instead of against it.“

    They also shared a collective ventilation and food prep/delivery system.

    I’m not arguing against isolation but he raises compelling questions on long-term shutdowns and isolation.
    _

    harkin (b64479)

  57. Blind trusts require someone willing to be Trustee. Not every politician knows/trusts someone willing to do that, and the “volunteers” might have the wrong agenda.

    DRJ (15874d)

  58. True, harkin. We might not all want to isolate in hotels but we aren’t.

    DRJ (15874d)

  59. Or hospitals, for that matter. Another reason to try to keep a lid on things and not flood hospitals up front.

    DRJ (15874d)

  60. Yeah, I’m late to the party, but, the policy of Open boarders will have to be revisited.

    A tale of two cities countries.
    Canada

    Cuba

    Leadership is as leadership does.

    felipe (023cc9)

  61. Why is this a problem now? Exactly how do politicians come into DC blue collar and leave multi millionaires?

    Iowan2 (bbb95d)

  62. Madrid is handling it by taking over private hospitals and triaging hospitals — some only for coronavirus, some for quarantining exposed/sick/undiagnosed people, and some for routine care. But not every city has enough hospitals to do that. If you only have one hospital, everyone has an interest in protecting it.

    DRJ (15874d)

  63. “ True, harkin. We might not all want to isolate in hotels but we aren’t.”

    Don’t really understand the comment in relation to pointing out relevant factors on figuring out actual severity rates.
    _

    harkin (b64479)

  64. Good question, Iowan2. My answer is because they can or, shorter version: corruption.

    DRJ (15874d)

  65. They also shared a collective ventilation and food prep/delivery system.

    I understood this comment to suggest isolation was not 100%, which it wasn’t. My thinking is that the rates would be even lower with more isolation.

    Are you saying being exposed through ventilation and food sources shows no isolation is needed? If so, I disagree. We know there can be some contamination through vents and on surfaces (presumably like food trays), but my understanding is that this is aerosolized people-to-people so restricting direct contact is good. There is an argument the Diamond Princess proves that.

    DRJ (15874d)

  66. 49. By the time the Diamond Princess was quarantined at the dock, it was too late to prevent exposure of anyone on board. That’s the closest we’ve come to having a controlled scientific study of how the virus spreads — and it ought to be cause for optimism, not a reason for government to start enforcing lockdowns.

    Gryph (08c844)

  67. …restricting direct contact is good. There is an argument the Diamond Princess proves that.

    DRJ (15874d) — 3/20/2020 @ 12:49 pm

    It’s a faulty argument.

    Gryph (08c844)

  68. So Japan should have let them all come ashore because they posed no danger to anyone?

    DRJ (15874d)

  69. 67. Stop with the straw men, douchebag. The argument is whether we in America are overreacting to CoViD-19. At least read the article before you put words in my mouth.

    Gryph (08c844)

  70. CNN Politics
    @CNNPolitics
    ·
    Trump peddles unsubstantiated hope in dark times | Analysis https://cnn.it/2QvniyI
    __ _

    Damon Linker
    @DamonLinker

    “The president expressed hope in his press briefing today, but experts agree there is in fact no hope at all. Four Pinocchios.”
    __ _

    Pam Besteder
    @pambesteder
    ·
    Replying to
    @CNNPolitics

    Scenario A
    Trump: This is horrible, it’s never going to get better.
    Media: Trump is stoking panic, a President should be the voice of calm.

    Scenario B
    Trump: I’m optimistic about how it’s going to work out, we’ll be better than ever.
    Media: Trump is downplaying people’s fear.
    __ _

    China is asshoe
    @lamblock
    ·
    “the only thing we have to fear is fear itself”
    __ _

    Beto Ochoa
    @Beto_In_Austin
    ·
    Replying to
    @CNNPolitics
    Congratulations, you are now officially worse for the nation than the virus.

    __

    The same people who ridicule ‘thoughts & prayers’ are the same ones championing singing Imagine from your balcony. It all depends on how it lays politically.
    _

    harkin (b64479)

  71. harkin,

    If your point is that the quarantine was not well done, I agree. Maybe it shows no quarantine can be effective; maybe it shows even a partial, poor quarantine can work (or not work); maybe it shows nothing.

    If they had done nothing then we can learn from that. If they did a complete quarantine then we could learn from that. But I am not sure what we learn from this.

    DRJ (15874d)

  72. It isn’t a strawman. Japan didn’t let them ashore because it did not want to introduce potential spreaders of disease, right?

    DRJ (15874d)

  73. harkin (b64479) — 3/20/2020 @ 12:58 pm

    The same people who ridicule ‘thoughts & prayers’ are the same ones championing singing Imagine from your balcony. It all depends on how it lays politically.

    That reminded me of the scene in Forrest Gump.

    frosty (f27e97)

  74. “ Are you saying being exposed through ventilation and food sources shows no isolation is needed?

    I have no idea why you’re reading me so different than what I meant to say.

    The author said the most complete (as incomplete as it was) data was from the cruise ship. You said that yes but they also isolated and distanced.

    All I did was point out two additional factors that certainly should be taken into account.

    I also said this:

    I’m not arguing against isolation but he raises compelling questions on long-term shutdowns and isolation.

    Was that not clear enough?
    _

    harkin (b64479)

  75. Or are we back to herd immunity?

    DRJ (15874d)

  76. @ Whebly and DRJ thank you both for the links.

    Time123 (b0628d)

  77. As I mentioned a few posts ago, a lot will hinge on the effect of warmer temps. We don’t know the impact for certain yet.

    If the spread is reduced significantly, that gives time to prep for the change back to cooler temps in late October where the best option may be herd immunity. We can’t go through a full winter with a lockdown like this.

    Yes, there is the non-tropic Southern Hemisphere to think of but that is much much fewer people.

    Munroe (dd6b64)

  78. Trump’s eruption at an NBC reporter says it all about his alternate reality on coronavirus

    President Trump on Friday excoriated an NBC reporter for pressing him on whether he was being overly optimistic about the government’s ability to deliver drugs to treat the coronavirus. But the exchange epitomized just how out of tune Trump is with actual developments and his top health officials.

    At the daily news briefing, Trump played up the promise of a malaria drug to possibly treat the coronavirus. He was asked about its application to other similar diseases like severe acute respiratory syndrome, for which he said he thought the drug had been “fairly effective.”

    But then Anthony S. Fauci, the nation’s leading immunologist, stepped in to qualify things.

    “You’ve got to be careful when you say ‘fairly effective,’” Fauci told Fox News’s John Roberts. “It was never done in a clinical trial that compared it to anything. It was given to individuals and felt that maybe it works.”

    In the next exchange, NBC’s Peter Alexander noted that Trump had said the day before about some of the drugs “we’re in really good shape on, and that’s for immediate delivery — immediate — like as fast as we can get it.”

    Trump watered that down somewhat Friday, acknowledging there is a process to approving drugs for the new purpose. But he added, “I am a man that comes from a very positive school when it comes to, in particular, one of these drugs.” He added: “People may be surprised by the way there would be a game-changer.”

    Alexander noted that Fauci has sung a very different tune on this topic, though, saying here is no “magic drug.” Alexander suggested Trump might agree, but before he could finish his question, Trump cut in.

    “Well,” Trump said, “you know I think we only disagree a little bit. I disagree. Maybe and maybe not. Maybe there is; maybe there isn’t. We have to see.”

    Alexander countered: “Is it possible that your impulse to put a positive spin on things, may be giving Americans a false sense of hope?”

    “No, I don’t think so,” Trump said.

    Alexander noted it was not yet an approved drug.

    “Such a lovely question,” Trump shot back. He tried to say he agreed with Fauci — despite what he had said just a moment before — but then again offered a more optimistic tone than the doctor has about the drug.

    “I feel good about it. That’s all it is — just a feeling. [I’m a] smart guy,” Trump said, adding: “We have nothing to lose. You know the expression: What the hell do you have to lose?”

    Alexander responded with what might seem like an innocuous question: “What you said Americans were scared, though? Nearly 200 dead. Fourteen thousand are sick. Millions, as you witness, who are scared right now. What do you say to Americans who are watching you right now who are scared?”

    Trump erupted.

    “I say that you’re a terrible reporter; that’s what I say,” Trump said. “I think it’s a very nasty question. And I think it’s a very bad signal that you’re putting out to the American people. The American people are looking for answers, and they’re looking for hope. And you’re doing sensationalism.”

    He added: “Let me just say something: That’s really bad reporting. And you want to get back to reporting instead of sensationalism. Let’s see if it works. It might and it might not. I happen to feel good about it, but who knows? I’ve been right a lot.”

    Dave (1bb933)

  79. Why is this a problem now? Exactly how do politicians come into DC blue collar and leave multi millionaires?

    How many politicians get to DC while still blue collar?

    Kishnevi (98ea1b)

  80. Blind trusts require someone willing to be Trustee. Not every politician knows/trusts someone willing to do that, and the “volunteers” might have the wrong agenda.

    Most banks and many law firms have trust departments.

    Ragspierre (d9bec9)

  81. Because a financial collapse kills tens of millions.

    I can’t think of one.

    Ragspierre (d9bec9)

  82. Dave, I have to say, Trump’s calm, confident, and resolute message to scared Americans was very reassuring that he’s got things under control.

    How many politicians get to DC while still blue collar?

    Kishnevi (98ea1b) — 3/20/2020 @ 1:38 pm

    There are people who believe in that stuff. People who think Trump is a self made man of great accomplishment.

    The more insider stuff we tolerate, the dumber our leaders get. They will take as much as they can, including seats at the insider deal table for their family, who, like Trump, never had to work an honest day in their life and have no real understanding or love for our country.

    Dustin (b18b7a)

  83. Reform for Congress:

    Term limits and forfeiture of all personal property. When your term is up you get a reasonable pension but cannot serve on boards or be a lobbyist.

    Sounds like a bad deal for Chelsea Clinton, but for the neighborhood professional who wants to make a difference and return to his career, sounds fine.

    Dustin (b18b7a)

  84. Yes, there is the non-tropic Southern Hemisphere to think of but that is much much fewer people.

    There are already enough cases in the Southern Hemisphere to suggest we may not be lucky enough to have that be true. The warm weather here in South Florida (low 70s at night, mid 80s during the day) doesn’t seem to be inhibiting the spread.

    And there are specific pockets of bigness. Sao Paolo is bigger than New York City.

    Kishnevi (98ea1b)

  85. “ ….forfeiture of all personal property. When your term is up you get a reasonable pension”

    ‘NO INNOCATIVE/SUCCESSFUL PERSONS NEED APPLY’
    _

    harkin (b64479)

  86. 77… I watched that presser and that fellow deserved what he got, along with the disdain shown his female reporter supporters.

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  87. Without Urgent Action, Coronavirus Could Overwhelm U.S., Estimates Say

    Model for the infection rate in each county over the next four months, under three counter-measure scenarios.

    With “no” control measures, the number of new cases per day (nationwide) peaks at 500,000 per day in late May.

    With “some” control measures (25% reduction in transmission rate observed to date), it peaks at 280,000 per day in early July.

    If the transmission rate is cut in half (“severe” control measures) the infection rate peaks at a lower level, and much later (after the model ends on August 1).

    Dave (1bb933)

  88. Dustin (b18b7a) — 3/20/2020 @ 1:50 pm

    There are a lot of valid constitutional issues that will get in the way of something like that. Even if you can get past those, that’s only a recipe for stand-ins or by-proxy situations.

    frosty (f27e97)

  89. The number of coronavirus cases and deaths spiked again on Wednesday in Italy, which has reported 3,089 people infected and 107 deaths over all. Current U.S. numbers: 14,549 cases in the U.S., 218 deaths (as of yesterday). Italy’s numbers as of yesterday: 41,035 cases, 3405 deaths.

    You never know ‘when you’re gonna get it’ —

    Total number of gun violence deaths in the U.S., so far, in 2020 as of March 20: 8,463.

    source- https://www.gunviolencearchive.org

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  90. 78. That’s what you take away from my post? It’s a question meant to cause a person to think past a single event, and consider the system, not a single event. But go ahead play internet troll.

    Iowan2 (bbb95d)

  91. Total number of gun violence deaths in the U.S. is ZERO.

    Ragspierre (d9bec9)

  92. “What the hell have you got to lose?” – President Donald J. Trump, 3/20/2020

    Uh– your life, Captain, sir.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  93. @90. Ignorance is bliss. Ventilate. And Stay happy!

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  94. His presser was telling.

    Irritable.

    It may be a symptom of the bug…

    Or hemorrhoids.

    Which might explain his unscheduled trip to Walter Reed last November.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  95. With polls indicating most Americans support the actions this administration has taken to this point in the fight against the Wuhancoronavirus, Democrats and some in the media are now being more circumspect about trying to incite a panic.

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  96. Which is a welcome development, IMO.

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  97. With polls indicating most Americans support the actions this administration has taken to this point in the fight against the Wuhancoronavirus, Democrats and some in the media are now being more circumspect about trying to incite a panic.

    Yes, those polls are for how the LOCAL governments are handling it. No need to make up stuff, the administration spent 7 weeks dithering, he got serious…Friday, one week ago.

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827)

  98. 78. That’s what you take away from my post? It’s a question meant to cause a person to think past a single event, and consider the system, not a single event. But go ahead play internet troll
    I am pointing out that your question doesn’t go deep enough. People don’t go to DC not-rich and get rich. They go to DC already wealthy and get wealthier.

    Kishnevi (98ea1b)

  99. “some in the media”?

    Given the entire newsday is given over to Covid-19 and its impacts, it’s all the media. And that includes (just took a quick look) Breitbart. Only difference is that the latter gives it as much Trumpfriendly spin as possible.

    Kishnevi (98ea1b)

  100. There are a lot of valid constitutional issues that will get in the way of something like that. Even if you can get past those, that’s only a recipe for stand-ins or by-proxy situations.

    frosty (f27e97) — 3/20/2020 @ 2:06 pm

    Yes to modify eligibility for constitutional office you… have to amend the constitution. My proposal neatly accounted for your proxy concern. Congressmen do not own property of any kind. After their term is concluded they get a reasonable pension but if they just ‘get their stuff back’ that would be a crime. We have to separate them from these interests entirely. These insider deals cost Americans enormous amounts.

    Just think of the inefficiency of republicans lying that there is no pandemic, why talking that way is ‘inciting panic’ and fake news. All the while they cash in and fail to prepare. Then when the crisis comes we’re way behind in so many ways from where we could have been. That costs lives. Some folks can’t put the lives of mere Americans ahead of party loyalty. We have to find a way to break their partisan and irrational cycle of thinking, or things will get bad.

    Dustin (b18b7a)

  101. Memo to Newsom: you said stay in; many were out, including me. Traffic moderate; people wearing masks up and practicing ‘personal spacing’ with intent.

    Grocery run report; Friday, noon PDT. Stores still limiting hours 8 to 8– staff wearing gloves but no masks; attempted to limit patrons in store to 25 at a time but it wasn’t working too well so they set up an entrance only/exit only system to regulate shoppers flowing through the store. Semed to be working.

    Limit of two loaves of bread. [There was one left– wheat; first loaf of packaged bread in hand in 14 days.] Limit one milk; limit on one package of TP- and they were literally being scarfed up as the shelf was being stocked; one package of paper towels— 9 packages left on shelf.

    No eggs; little cheese– even less butter; no pasta products; no pasta sauces. No rice, no beans [no surprise]; no canned veggies — except green beans again… no frozen lasagna; assorted entrees limited; limited bottled jiuces; plenty of coffee, teas, frozen foods, packaged snack foods; plenty of fresh produce but no fresh beef– a load of whole chickens had come in but it was disappearing fast; condensed soups/frozen pizzas shelves restocked.

    But it seems to be chiefly bread and paper products that are sought out and bought up PDQ.

    Post office: personal spacing in line enforced; gloved clerks– but no masks.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  102. It looks very bad, and should be investigated, but there were economic analysts warning that the outbreak could lead to severe economic dislocation quite early on. By the end of January, it was becoming clear that businesses in China were taking a huge hit.

    So if somebody else was managing a portfolio, they could well have anticipated, at least in broad outline, what has come to pass. Especially if not vested in downplaying the problem with happy-talk for political reasons.

    Dave (1bb933)

  103. Newsom really should have been left up to the local municipalities and county administrators familiar with their communities and who are much closer to ‘street level’ to manage this– and frankly they were doing a pretty good job, too.

    ‘The population of California is roughly 40 million. The economy of California is the largest in the United States, boasting a $3.137 trillion gross state product as of 2019. In total, over 10% of Fortune 1000 companies were based in California in 2018, the most of any state. If California were its own nation, it would be the fifth largest economy in the world.’ – source, wikiUSA

    Newsom’s action was just a Sacramento hit job; political: he threw sand in the gears to stick it to Trump.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  104. @77. An NBC audio technician had tested positive for the coronavirus earlier this week and died from it today. Alexander’s question[s] were fair game.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  105. Dustin (b18b7a) — 3/20/2020 @ 2:40 pm

    My proposal neatly accounted for your proxy concern. Congressmen do not own property of any kind. After their term is concluded they get a reasonable pension but if they just ‘get their stuff back’ that would be a crime. We have to separate them from these interests entirely.

    You don’t get the proxy concern. Maybe patronage is a better term. In your system, a potential congress critter just needs to find a patron. The patron doesn’t need to give the critter stuff and there wouldn’t be any need to get stuff back. They’d just need access to the stuff the patron set aside for their use.

    I’m ignoring the aspect of your suggestion that, outside of medieval monasteries, there isn’t an example of a vocation that works as you suggest. The medieval monastery actually is an example of the patronage problem you’d run into with that system.

    frosty (f27e97)

  106. You can’t gas-light a virus.

    But that doesn’t mean you can’t try.

    What the hell have you got to lose?

    Dave (1bb933)

  107. harkin 73,

    I took your comment 55 as amplifying my earlier Diamond Princess comment, but my followup comments 57 and 58 were not clear as you noted at comment 62. I should have asked you to help me understand your response instead of speculating as I did in comments 64 and 70.

    I apologize. I was not trying to be annoying but I fear I have been, as well as confusing.

    DRJ (15874d)

  108. It’s pretty simple. As long as people take the attitude: “They may be a crook, but they’re our crook,” you will get crooks.

    Character, honesty, integrity, even competence are all irrelevant as long as you get the judges you want, right?

    Dave (1bb933)

  109. Kelly Loeffler says that her investments are managed by advisors who do not consult with her or her husband in making decisions. Unless we learn otherwise, I think I am willing to accept this. I would assume that Dianne Feinstein and her husband’s investments fall in the same category, so I would give them the benefit of the doubt too.

    I don't make any investment decisions for my portfolio. Investment decisions are made by multiple third-party advisors without my or my husband's knowledge or involvement.I have followed both the letter and the spirit of the law — and will continue to do so every single day. pic.twitter.com/OhKQZMkYHA— Kelly Loeffler (@KLoeffler) March 20, 2020

    JVW (54fd0b)

  110. In addition to low stocks of paper goods and some food, our grocery stores are now limiting purchases to no more than 2 of specific items. For instance, only 2 packages of bacon, sausage or hot dogs. It may be the items are being bought so much that the warehouses can’t restock it or the truckers can’t get it there fast enough.

    DRJ (15874d)

  111. Grocery run report; Friday, noon PDT.

    Yeah, my understanding is that you have to get there first thing in the morning or else you will be shut out.

    On the other hand, though, I was quite surprised to pass through a Smart & Final yesterday afternoon around 4:00 pm and find that they had lots of beef, chicken, and pork available. I am guessing that I must have arrived at a perfectly opportune moment after shelves had been restocked because they were otherwise out of things like bread, tortillas (which is what I really wanted), toilet paper, and some of the other stuff that has been missing. The Trader Joe’s across the street had been largely cleaned out by that point, though I did score two cans of anchovies, a head of lettuce, some tomatoes, and a bag of blue corn tortilla chips.

    JVW (54fd0b)

  112. I found this article informative and interesting. Somewhat reassuring too…

    Are food deliveries and groceries safe during coronavirus pandemic? Yes, experts say

    “There is no evidence out there that, so far with [Covid-19], that its foodborne-driven or food service-driven,” Williams said in an information webinar. “This really is respiratory, person-to-person. At this point there is no evidence really pointing us towards food [or] food service as ways that are driving the epidemic.”

    The US Food and Drug Administration echoed that sentiment, saying on its website that it’s not aware of any reports suggesting Covid-19 can be transmitted by food or food packaging.

    […]

    When it comes to food and food packaging inside a grocery store, again, the risks are low, experts said.

    “While it’s possible that the virus gets deposited [on packaging] we have no indication from epidemiology or the literature that this is a risk factor for Covid-19 or other respiratory illnesses,” Chapman said. “Even with the millions of cases of influenza each year, packaging isn’t something we talk about.”

    Even in a worse case scenario, the coronavirus is only likely to be an issue if an infected person coughed or sneezed directly on the food or packaging, rather than if they just touched it, both food scientists said.

    In order to catch the virus that way, though, you’d have to touch the contaminated item, then touch your face, they said.

    Read the whole thing, but the main take-away is that other people are by far the most likely source of infection, not contaminated surfaces and especially not food.

    Dave (1bb933)

  113. @77. An NBC audio technician had tested positive for the coronavirus earlier this week and died from it today. Alexander’s question[s] were fair game.

    DCSCA (797bc0) — 3/20/2020 @ 3:00 pm

    If Dear Leader says don’t talk about it, then talking about it is a crime. Inciting a panic. Meanwhile Dear Leader colluding with Putin to subvert America’s most precious institution (the manufacture of chocolate baseballs) is waste of time to even think about.

    It’s interesting to consider that people like this weren’t some special aspect to Nazi Germany or Imperial Japan, but have been everywhere and every time. Boots need never worry that they will go dry with all the licking. The real problem is that damn free press.

    Dustin (b18b7a)

  114. 106 DRJ

    Thanks you really flummoxed me there for a bit.

    harkin (b64479)

  115. 103. Alexander didn’t ask about the man dying. Why would the President of the United States have any opinion about that. Alexander accused the President of lying to give the American people false hope. Alexander is attempting (and succeeded) to be the news. Not report the news.
    The media is continuing its ongoing attempt to smear President Trump because his approval keeps going up, and is better than Obama’s. The latest poll by ABC/IPSOS show the Presidents approval up from the previous week when asked about his handling of the COVID 19 response.

    Iowan2 (bbb95d)

  116. Alexander accused the President of lying to give the American people false hope.

    And since that’s exactly what Trump was doing, he was pretty unhappy about having it pointed out.

    Dave (1bb933)

  117. “ I’m ignoring the aspect of your suggestion that, outside of medieval monasteries, there isn’t an example of a vocation that works as you suggest.”

    I can think of an example or two of systems where they claimed it worked while in fact those in power accumulated wealth along with power and everybody else remained poor, powerless and subject to standing in long lines for basic needs and arrest or death if they complained.
    _

    It’s shocking to see in the response to the virus how so many are clueless on such things as federalism and what the constitution says the govt. CAN’T do.

    harkin (b64479)

  118. My Sharona Corona

    My Corona
    My Corona
    Ooh, my little sneaky one, sneaky one
    When you gonna give me a (break, Corona?)
    Ooh, you make my nostrils run, my nostrils run
    Turning red from having to (wipe, Corona)
    It’s never gonna stop, I’m givin’ up, wipin’ my behind
    Put one in my head, behind an ear, if you’d be so kind
    My, my, my, ay, ay, woah!
    M-m-m-my Corona
    M-m-m-my Corona

    Colonel Haiku (ac91f9)

  119. Alexander accused the President of lying to give the American people false hope.

    With all due respect, Trump has admitted he knew it was a pandemic the whole time, and for most of the time he obviously was lying to give Americans ‘false hope’. The problem with this decision is it naturally leads to panic, and no one can trust the administration to be making intelligent decisions or even be trustworthy about what it knows. Add in all the scandal of politicians cashing in, and the (frankly dubious) excuses that they were just using intermediaries and it’s a huge coincidence, and the people are losing trust in a crisis.

    This question was a golden opportunity for a leader to say something to the American people. Even a blunt

    ‘ I really was wishfully hoping it would be no big deal, and even though everyone told me it was a crisis and I knew it was a crisis, I wanted to keep you calm. I can see how stupid that was and I’ll try real hard to tell the truth’

    would have been so much better than

    ‘you’re a terrible reporter’

    Alexander is attempting (and succeeded) to be the news. Not report the news.

    Trump’s reaction is what made it the news. otherwise none of us would have even noticed the question

    The latest poll by ABC/IPSOS show the Presidents approval up from the previous week when asked about his handling of the COVID 19 response.

    Well that’s what really matters. I would be really cautious about reading into that before the campaign really gets underway. There’s a reason Trump was afraid of Biden enough to risk impeachment to kneecap him early. Biden is not an honorable person and will use this crisis in the most ghoulish (and Trump like) way he think she can get away with. Personally I can’t generate any interest in either side winning, and I have much interest in both sides losing, and I think these circumstances are ripe for reforms including constitutional amendments.

    Dustin (b18b7a)

  120. “In order to catch the virus that way, though, you’d have to touch the contaminated item, then touch your face, they said.”

    Sure glad to hear that and I hope that’s right. It makes me feel much better about takeout food.

    One would think ingesting the virus would be as risky as breathing it in but hopefully not.
    _

    harkin (b64479)

  121. @110. I think you’re right— timing and knowing when the deliveries come in. The TP thing was a good example– they were open up cartons and handing packages to customers before it was even placed on the shelves. It’s a peculiar mix of what is getting bought up, too. The run on bottled juices seems just odd [maybe because of the kids al being hom from school?!]; same w/t canned veggies, especially when the fresh carrots, peas and so forth were plentiful.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  122. 114… yes… I see you understand the situation.

    Colonel Haiku (ac91f9)

  123. The latest poll by ABC/IPSOS show the Presidents approval up from the previous week when asked about his handling of the COVID 19 response.

    The Skin-In-The-Poll (Dow) does not agree.

    T-rump’s approval was at 44, down from a week or two ago.

    Ragspierre (d9bec9)

  124. We have always held to the hope, the belief, the conviction that there is a better life, a better world, beyond the horizon.

    We choose to go to the moon in this decade and do the other things, not because they are easy, but because they are hard,

    Darkness cannot drive out darkness: only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate: only love can do that.

    To paraphrase Winston Churchill, I did not take the oath I have just taken with the intention of presiding over the dissolution of the world’s strongest economy.

    I’d say that you are a terrible reporter, that’s what I’d say! I think it’s a very nasty question, and I think that it’s very bad.

    “He fights”

    Dustin (b18b7a)

  125. Well that’s what really matters. I would be really cautious about reading into that before the campaign really gets underway. There’s a reason Trump was afraid of Biden enough to risk impeachment to kneecap him early.

    Trump afraid of Biden. You’re hilarious or delusional.

    So about Biden…and the Senators dumping stock. Nothing, all legit, or, SCANDAL!!!

    Iowan2 (bbb95d)

  126. I had to go to three different markets to find acceptable tortillas, JVW.

    Colonel Haiku (ac91f9)

  127. harkin:

    Bear with me for a moment because it interests me. What have we learned from Diamond Princess?

    Is it good that there was a communicable disease but relatively few got sick (and fewer died) despite being in a small, confined space with limited health and hygiene precautions? Or is it a bad sign that it spread so quickly in a finite group who were making an attempt at social distancing?

    I am sure we can learn something from it but I am struggling with what we learned. It’s more like a flawed clinical trial.

    DRJ (15874d)

  128. Alexander accused the President of lying to give the American people false hope.

    Wul, yah…!!!

    Like Duh Donald has never lied to the American people to give them false hope…

    or for no reason in particular.

    Is his mouth moving?

    Ragspierre (d9bec9)

  129. Alexander accused the President of lying to give the American people false hope.

    Weirdly, that’s not what actually happened. Alexander threw him a basic softball question, and Trump, being Trump, he couldn’t do the adult thing, he acted like a child. It’s not like there is video of it or anything.

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827)

  130. @114. Alexander accused the President of lying to give the American people false hope.

    No.

    Alexander asked Trump what he’d say to Americans watching him that moment who were scared. My God, it was an easy one to answer and instead, he went into irritation mode.

    Too much time on his azz; his hemorrhoids were flaring up.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  131. Trump afraid of Biden. You’re hilarious or delusional.

    Embrace the power of AND!

    Colonel Haiku (ac91f9)

  132. Inhaling vs ingesting, and the food-borne issue:

    I hope the food and packaging risk is low, too, since it is hard to get groceries and takeout is the obvious alternative. But more reports are saying this starts with gastrointestinal problems in up to half the cases. If so, it is hard to rule out mouth/oral or food transmission.

    DRJ (15874d)

  133. DCSCA @ 129. Yes! This is one news clip I did see. It was the softest of softballs. But Donna Tatiana’s Thorazine was wearing off.

    nk (1d9030)

  134. The question that Trump lost it on would have been a softball question for any president with a scintilla of human decency:

    “What you said Americans were scared, though? Nearly 200 dead. Fourteen thousand are sick. Millions, as you witness, who are scared right now. What do you say to Americans who are watching you right now who are scared?”

    It was a chance to feel peoples’ pain, to show some empathy for people who don’t live a life of luxury with hundreds of servants looking after their every need, to reassure people that yes, things look bad at the moment, but if we pull together they will get better.

    But instead, he lashed out with (in effect) “How dare you describe reality as it is?!”

    Dave (1bb933)

  135. Didn’t this supposedly start in some live animal grocery market, or has that been ruled out?

    DRJ (15874d)

  136. Iowan2 (bbb95d) — 3/20/2020 @ 3:53 pm

    So about Biden…and the Senators dumping stock. Nothing, all legit, or, SCANDAL!!!

    Magic-8 balls says not sure try again later … the magic-8 ball now says nothing to s… screw you magic-8 ball nothing my a… the magic-8 ball now says let’s give them all a full and thorough financial colonoscopy.

    I’m for full and complete transparency.

    frosty (f27e97)

  137. @132. Yep. Preparation H time.

    One of Pence’s staff gnomes has tested positive for The Bug, too. A Reality Show star and an ex-radio talk show host at the helm. America’s been totally ‘foxed up the azz.’

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  138. @134. That was a report I saw– some odd animal in China that wanders around the seedy market and is sold for food, too, picked it up from a bat.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  139. Also, look at today’s Dow curve. It goes down steadily after Trump’s press conference. He needs to go on lock-down.

    nk (1d9030)

  140. @135. Biden 101: “I did nothing illegal.”

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  141. He needs to go on lock-down.

    Lock jaw.

    Or STFU quarantine.

    Ragspierre (d9bec9)

  142. DRJ (15874d) — 3/20/2020 @ 4:01 pm

    Didn’t this supposedly start in some live animal grocery market, or has that been ruled out

    someone will be along in a few minutes to say that’s an unsupported lie against the heroic and honorable Chinese people

    frosty (f27e97)

  143. 134, 137… this wet market is where they believe the virus originated…

    https://youtu.be/9n40jIqY1IY

    Colonel Haiku (ac91f9)

  144. Shortly after Trump said:

    “I am a man that comes from a very positive school when it comes to, in particular, one of these drugs. People may be surprised by the way there would be a game-changer.”

    Alexander asked:

    “Is it possible that your impulse to put a positive spin on things, may be giving Americans a false sense of hope?”

    So really Alexander only “accused” Trump of something he had already admitted to: “…com[ing] from a very positive school…”. The question is even phrased in a wishy-washy way, suggesting that Trump’s optimism is having an unintended side-effect, not that he is intentionally trying to deceive people.

    (Hmmm … “a very positive school” … does he mean the Trump University School of Medicine?!)

    Dave (1bb933)

  145. @138. He needs to go on lock-down.

    What he ‘needed’ was to be ‘locked down’ in his room after mouthing off with dead-big-brother-Fred 65 years ago and had the ever loving sh!t kicked out of him, learned a little self-dicipline and learned a life long lesson. 😉

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  146. Pigs get it, chickens get it, dogs get it. But does the virus survive cooking or is it contamination of the cooked food through unsafe handling of the raw meat?

    nk (1d9030)

  147. Didn’t this supposedly start in some live animal grocery market, or has that been ruled out?

    Nobody with any brains or scientific education has ruled out anything.

    There are aspholes without either who lie about any idea that deviates from the group-think.

    Ragspierre (d9bec9)

  148. One of Pence’s staff gnomes has tested positive for The Bug, too. A Reality Show star and an ex-radio talk show host at the helm. America’s been totally ‘foxed up the azz.’

    Be proud of yourself. He’s the guy *you* wanted in charge.

    Dave (1bb933)

  149. @147. Yes, temporary inconvenience, permanent improvement: the modern ideological conservative movement shrinks in relevancy literally by the hour. And now they’re warming up to bailouts!!

    Glorious!

    And you still get your judges, too. So typical: never satisfied.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  150. Hey… could be worse, could be a person with no practical experience to speak of.

    Colonel Haiku (ac91f9)

  151. Well, here in Illinois, we all know that the sooner we get over this the sooner Governor Pritzker will be able to eat at French restaurants again and the sooner Mayor Lighfoot and her girlfriend will be able to fly to the Club Meds and ogle nude young girls on the beaches.

    nk (1d9030)

  152. 129. Alexander’s monologue, was much more than your little snippet.

    President Trump has spoken directly to the American People eversingle time he has led these press conferences. Every single time he has assured the American People he is moving all the federal govt substantial powers to protect, and provide for the People. EVERY SINGLE TIME.

    Iowan2 (bbb95d)

  153. Hey… could be worse, could be a person with no practical experience to speak of.

    How? Trump has zero practical experience to speak of, and he’s a moron.

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827)

  154. 129. Alexander’s monologue, was much more than your little snippet.

    President Trump has spoken directly to the American People ever single time he has led these press conferences. Every single time he has assured the American People he is moving all the federal govt substantial powers to protect, and provide for the People. EVERY SINGLE TIME. (and polls show the American people are paying attention, that’s what the media is mad about.)

    President Trump is not some puppet controlled by idiot media types trying to get the big prime time slot on TV. He refuses to be manipulated by the likes of Peter Alexander.

    Iowan2 (bbb95d)

  155. Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827) — 3/20/2020 @ 4:29 pm

    How? Trump has zero practical experience to speak of, and he’s a moron.

    If we’re lucky he’ll be replaced by a lying grifter with zero practical experience to speak of who is also a moron and can’t remember what day it is or what state he’s in.

    frosty (f27e97)

  156. President Trump has spoken directly to the American People eversingle time he has led these press conferences. Every single time he has assured the American People he is moving all the federal govt substantial powers to protect, and provide for the People. EVERY SINGLE TIME.

    Except that just is a plain, utter, lie.

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827)

  157. DRJ – “ I am sure we can learn something from it but I am struggling with what we learned. It’s more like a flawed clinical trial.”

    Now I’m flummoxed again. You seem to be saying that the article presented a cut and dried case to ignore isolation. I must have read a different article.

    One of the articles main points was that it was flawed but the best test case so far.

    All the guy was doing was asking people to consider actual numbers as they came in and going forward applying them to past flus and pandemics when deciding how much we want to shut down life as we know it.
    _

    harkin (b64479)

  158. President Trump has spoken directly to the American People ever single time he has led these press conferences

    Indeed. And he lied to us over and over before finally flip flopping and saying he knew it was a pandemic all along. By lying to the country for weeks, the people are naturally less trusting of government in this time where, unfortunately, we need to be able to trust what they tell us.

    You gotta do more than talk a lot. You have to lead and tell the truth to gain credibility. If just talking a lot was all it took, Trump would be doing a great job, and he objectively is not.

    Dustin (b18b7a)

  159. If we’re lucky he’ll be replaced by a lying grifter with zero practical experience to speak of who is also a moron and can’t remember what day it is or what state he’s in.

    Err, well, he’s actually been in a functioning government before. Yeah, it was 1935 or something. What I’m saying is he’s old, but maybe his main goal won’t to be a better twitter troll than most 13 year old boys.

    We’ve seen 3 years of prep time for Trump, can’t afford to wait for him any more. 25th Amendment today please.

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827)

  160. Every single time he has assured the American People he is moving all the federal govt substantial powers to protect, and provide for the People. EVERY SINGLE TIME.

    Does it work to help you believe it when you scream? ‘Cuz it doesn’t work for anyone with a brain.

    Ragspierre (d9bec9)

  161. Every single time he has assured the American People he is moving all the federal govt substantial powers to protect, and provide for the People. EVERY SINGLE TIME.

    And Klink is right to point out this isn’t the truth. Trump told us there was no big deal. He told other bodies in government this was no big deal. He twiddled his thumbs and played at his resorts and golf courses instead of doing his job. Normally we’ve been OK with Trump not doing his job, because when Trump makes decisions it can get pretty crazy (just ask air traffic control in Tehran). But in this case, saying he’s been moving all the government to provide and protect is the opposite of the truth. This is why Trump should have answered the hard question instead of spazzing out again. This is why men should spend a few years in the military so they can have thicker skin in life. Trump’s such a wimp.

    Dustin (b18b7a)

  162. “ Alexander accused the President of lying to give the American people false hope.”
    __ _

    Not sure about Alexander but CNN sure did:

    CNN Politics
    @CNNPolitics
    ·
    Trump peddles unsubstantiated hope in dark times | Analysis

    _
    __ _

    harkin (b64479)

  163. @45: Kind of surprised that almost all the comments are on the stock deal which, while newsworthy and need to be investigated, are microscopically important in comparison to the of entire states prohibiting the free movement of its citizens.

    This!

    As I write this, I am sitting in my university office — not locked under indefinite house arrest by tyrants — in South Korea, which has far more confirmed cases of coronavirus than California, but hasn’t yet bought into the “mass oppression model” of medicine.

    Meanwhile today, over in the land of the free and the home of the brave — someone have the decency to scrap those obsolete sentiments from America’s national anthem, please — a “stay at home order” from the government is considered by most to be at least tentatively welcome news that your betters, your owners, are doing their best to take care of you. By take care of you, of course, I mean to think for you, judge for you, decide for you, and arrest you if you dare to question the thoughts, judgments, and decisions that your owners have made on your behalf.

    Any semblance, remnant, or vague romantic echo of liberty, courage, individual self-determination, or basic respect for life, gone in a Hollywood heartbeat. Over a virus!

    Please, please wake up people! Think of the precedent you are setting here. Think of the principle you are establishing for the exertion of tyrannical government powers — over nothing more substantial than a few “expert” estimates, which are based on almost complete ignorance about the real number of cases of this virus that are already out there, and which conveniently ignore the well-established fact that this virus, so far, is having very little impact on people whose health is not already deeply compromised, just as is true of the common flu, which kills tens of thousands of Americans every year without anyone so much as blinking.

    I’m not speaking from callousness about the sick, or obliviousness about the disease. I live in what used to be the epicenter of the virus, and yet I can move freely, the restaurants and gyms are open for business (though of course their profits are taking a hit), the stores are all well-stocked (except for medical masks), we never run out of food, paper products, or anything at all. People here are doing their best to carry on with life in spite of the self-imposed limitations on social activity. And they remain free to use their own best judgment about “social distancing,” because Korea’s socialist president declared right at the outset of this thing that there are strict and sensible limits to what a government may do in controlling the daily lives of the people it represents.

    Meanwhile in America, the first nation to entrench those limits into its very founding, most people can’t race into the totalitarian nanny state’s arms fast enough at the first sign of media-induced panic.

    I can’t believe what I’m seeing. When I think of my American friends, living under a police state because their neighbors are frightened sheep and their leaders are progressive authoritarian opportunists, I feel sick with an ailment far worse than the coronavirus could ever cause. (To anyone inclined to reply, “Worse than death?” I answer, “Physical death is not the worst thing that can happen to a human being, as Americans used to understand very well. Remember “Give me liberty or give me death?” Remember “Better dead than red?”)

    I’ve been posting comments about this situation here for quite a while. This will be my last one, I suppose. I have nothing left to say, since it seems there is no one left here who is able to overcome the craven media and government exploitation of this “crisis” long enough to think it through with the mind of a rational, freedom-loving individual.

    I am genuinely sorry to sound so unpleasant and critical, but frankly I’m still trying to overcome the disillusionment of seeing so many people succumb so quickly and so easily to irrational fear.

    This virus will pass. The establishment of unlimited government powers over the entire population in the name of “crisis management” will be with you forever. And soon you’ll start to notice more and more “crises.” (Global warming, anyone?) And then you’ll just get used to it.

    Daren Jonescu (2f5857)

  164. 162. Thank you from the bottom of my still-healthy and beating heart, Daren. You are far more articulate than I am but you expressed my sentiments beautifully.

    Gryph (08c844)

  165. @153. President Trump is not some puppet controlled by idiot media types trying to get the big prime time slot on TV.

    Hmmm. Apparently you’ve never seen The Apprentice, which aired on a ‘big prime time slot on TV’… at NBC, nor heard of Mark Burnett.

    Another example of what it’s why it’s called ‘flyover country.’

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  166. Another example of what it’s why it’s called ‘flyover country.’

    Heh!

    nk (1d9030)

  167. 164. Well, doesn’t that mean Trump really isn’t a puppet trying to get the big prime time slot on TV? He doesn’t need it anymore! There’s so much blind panic over CoViD-19, I’m kind of surprised Trump hasn’t whipped out his ginormous EAS yet. 😛

    Gryph (08c844)

  168. Overheard in Trump country:

    — Wanna go grab a couple of beers?
    — What about that thar Corona virus?
    — We’ll ask for Bud Lite.

    nk (1d9030)

  169. As I write this, I am sitting in my university office — not locked under indefinite house arrest by tyrants — in South Korea, which has far more confirmed cases of coronavirus than California, but hasn’t yet bought into the “mass oppression model” of medicine.

    There’s a pretty good reason why South Korea has more confirmed cases, care to guess why? Also, are you a fan of what South Korea has done, because all of the rest of your screed, is directly opposed to how South Korea has accomplished flattening the cure.

    Meanwhile today, over in the land of the free and the home of the brave — someone have the decency to scrap those obsolete sentiments from America’s national anthem, please — a “stay at home order” from the government is considered by most to be at least tentatively welcome news that your betters, your owners, are doing their best to take care of you. By take care of you, of course, I mean to think for you, judge for you, decide for you, and arrest you if you dare to question the thoughts, judgments, and decisions that your owners have made on your behalf.

    WTF are you talking about? Literally nothing you said is true.

    Blah, blah, blah…

    It’s almost like you’re posting from a foreign script, hmm.

    Putin smiled.

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827)

  170. 168.

    Colonel Klink: I know noth-ink!

    Gryph (08c844)

  171. 168. And again, let me remind you, Klink, it’s already happened in Kentucky. In at least one instance — and soon to be more, I’m sure — a guy was forced to stay in his home under armed guard. I know, I know. There were certain circumstances under which it happened. But it did happen so you can stop pretending that it didn’t or won’t.

    Gryph (08c844)

  172. That was a report I saw– some odd animal in China that wanders around the seedy market and is sold for food, too, picked it up from a bat.“

    Not many of them wander. Almost all are in stacked cages where sometimes the upper ones defecate and urinate on the lower ones. If you haven’t yet seen the video from the Wuhan ‘wet’ animal market, it’s as disgusting as it is unbelievable that it’s legally open for business.
    __ __

    Regarding the transfer from bats to humans, this article from February in the Aussie news was very interesting, I have no idea if it’s been updated or corrected since tho:

    “ Professor Shi ran the genome sequence of 2019-nCoV — now officially known as COVID-19 — through the bat-related virus database she built up over ten years and found it was a 96 per cent match to a virus found in the droppings of horseshoe bats……

    …… Prof Shi’s work also challenges the widely held belief that coronaviruses require an intermediate host to make the jump from bats to humans.

    To date, it has been accepted that SARS was transmitted from bats to humans via palm civets and, in the case of its cousin MERS (Middle East respiratory syndrome) from bats to humans via camels.

    But Prof Shi found something unusual in the people living near the Yunnan cave: 3 per cent had developed immunity to the viruses, proving the strains can and have infected humans in the past.

    However, funding for the project dried up and the research into the virus now known to be a close relative to COVID-19 was suspended.

    With scientists still unable to identify an intermediate host for COVID-19 (although snakes and pangolins have been discussed) the possibility it jumped directly from bats to humans is now being taken very seriously……

    …… “Bats may be persistently infected with many viruses but rarely display clinical symptoms. “These characteristics and the increasing presence of bats and bat products in food and traditional medicine markets in southern China and elsewhere in Asia led us to survey bats in the search for the natural reservoir of SARS-CoV.”

    https://www.news.com.au/lifestyle/health/health-problems/mysterious-bat-cave-in-chinese-wilderness-could-hold-key-to-coronavirus/news-story/530063aeb9de7020e626f1c4839b9777
    _

    harkin (b64479)

  173. Daren Jonescu (2f5857) — 3/20/2020 @ 4:40 pm

    Not disagreeing. This is a very valid concern. But it might be important to note a few points. The stay at home orders are coming from state governors. Right now it’s only 4; Connecticut, Illinois, New York, and California. The federal government hasn’t yet, and I know I’m putting a lot on yet, issued stay at home orders. My state does not yet (yes I know) have a stay at home order.

    There is a lot to complain about with the way this is being handled (and I’m not trying to understate that) but you went from 4 states to the entire population faster than the facts on the ground would allow for.

    frosty (f27e97)

  174. And again, let me remind you, Klink, it’s already happened in Kentucky. In at least one instance — and soon to be more, I’m sure — a guy was forced to stay in his home under armed guard. I know, I know. There were certain circumstances under which it happened. But it did happen so you can stop pretending that it didn’t or won’t.

    And again, as was shown to you before, the guy had been diagnosed, he used a fake address to checked himself out the hospital, and actively went out KNOWING he could infect people. So the police chief parked a patrol car out front of his house.

    I know you like your FEELZ not facts, but jeez.

    Plus, one of us actually lives in Kentucky.

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827)

  175. 172. You raise a very valid point as well. However, though YMMV, it sounds to me like every time Fauci opens his yap, he wishes he could force people to stay inside at gunpoint if need be. In the instance I cited in Kentucky, the armed guards in question were sheriff’s deputies. Sheriffs are generally elected officials and if an entire county’s worth of sick people revolted, I don’t think they’d have enough deputies to enforce quarantines on everyone.

    Gryph (08c844)

  176. Colonel Haiku,

    That was a hilarious re-write of “My Sharona”!

    norcal (a5428a)

  177. 173. Still, he was forced home under gunpoint. At no point have you ever told me that wasn’t true.

    Gryph (08c844)

  178. 162 – Daren

    Great post! Please don’t go away.

    __ _

    Another example of what it’s why it’s called ‘flyover country.’

    And Don Lemon smiled.
    _

    harkin (b64479)

  179. EVERY SINGLE TIME.

    LOL. Yeah. Right.

    “And again, when you have 15 people, and the 15 within a couple of days is going to be down to close to zero, that’s a pretty good job we’ve done.”

    He’s on top of the problem!

    He refuses to be manipulated by the likes of Peter Alexander.

    There is nobody in the world easier to manipulate than Donald J. Trump. He’s one, big, glowing, flashing orange button labeled “PUSH ME!”

    Dave (1bb933)

  180. Still, he was forced home under

    gunpoint

    . At no point have you ever told me that wasn’t true.

    Words have meaning, gunpoint is a known word, parking a patrol car in front of the house is about as far from gunpoint as you can get. You could say he was held at tickle-point too, it’s as accurate.
    Plus, the last time you posted this nonsense this was the response, so I’ll just repeat.

    Well, the guy was confirmed infected, and said he would not quarantine, he was intentionally going out and putting others at risk. They didn’t put him in jail, or in the ground.

    When people are putting others at risk, intentionally, after being warned, multiple times, signed himself out of the hospital using a fake address specifically so he wouldn’t have to quarantine. I think have a cruiser sitting in front of your house to shame you is pretty minimal. There was no SWAT team threatening him

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827)

  181. 179. Of course not. Just armed sheriff’s deputies. At what point are you willing to say that the government (city, county OR state) has gone too far?

    Gryph (08c844)

  182. AND…it’s not even certain that this guy had CoViD-19 in the first place! It might have been a case of mistaken identity, or just a paperwork mistake on the part of the hospital.

    Gryph (08c844)

  183. Of course not. Just armed sheriff’s deputies. At what point are you willing to say that the government (city, county OR state) has gone too far?

    Well, if what you’re lying about were to actually happen, maybe then. But since your lie, is a lie, and not based in reality, that isn’t it.

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827)

  184. 182. The guy insisted that he was treated for COPD and never tested for CoViD-19. You’re going to assume that he was lying, and that government agents were telling the truth? SMDH… This is why we can’t have nice things, America.

    Gryph (08c844)

  185. Gryph (08c844) — 3/20/2020 @ 5:14 pm

    This might be a leap you are unwilling to take but voluntary only works up to a point. For example, a person pulls out a gun and yells “I want to shoot someone”. Or closer to this case “I’m going to wave this gun around and ignore basic trigger discipline”. Or when a guy sitting at a bar says “give me 5 shots of your cheapest whiskey, school is getting out down the road and I feel like taking a driving”.

    This case undermines your basic assertion elsewhere that you’re advocating for a responsible voluntary approach to social distancing.

    frosty (f27e97)

  186. 125, damn, Haiku, that sounds like my Sunday, but I got the drop on what time Monday morning the El Milagro truck stops off at a local market and I got some, albeit a 3 packet limit.

    urbanleftbehind (b8f9a6)

  187. “ “They’re very cooperative, and they’re compliant with all” the quarantine requirements, [Sheriff] Pineiroa said.”

    Anybody else reading this thinking maybe clarification, cooperation and assistance might have averted drawn guns and threats?
    _

    harkin (b64479)

  188. The Lexington Herald-Leader reports that the man is a Nelson County resident who tested positive for COVID-19. Beshear and the Herald-Leader said state authorities worked with Nelson County Judge Executive Dean Watts to declare a state of emergency to invoke a seldom-used statute that allows him to “force a self-isolation or quarantine.”

    https://thehill.com/changing-america/well-being/prevention-cures/488079-kentucky-man-who-tested-positive-for-covid-19

    nk (1d9030)

  189. 184. Posting armed LEOs outside someone’s door (or in a car on someone’s cub; what the *** ever) does not meet my definition of “voluntary.” They that can give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.

    Gryph (08c844)

  190. 188. *curb

    Gryph (08c844)

  191. That would be a shame, Jonescu. It has been refreshing to read common sense takes from an educator and of real life experience.

    Colonel Haiku (ac91f9)

  192. 187. But the guy’s wife said he’s suffered from COPD for years and went in for treatment in the ER wholly unrelated to CoViD-19. She insisted that he was never tested, and that they (she and her husband) were not allowed to see any of the paperwork to the effect that he was, in fact tested.

    Sounds to me like there is a definite non-zero chance that the hospital, or perhaps some other testing authority up the line, ****ed up the guy’s test. What if there is someone else out there that has CoViD-19 but hasn’t been quarantined because they got him confused with the guy who went in for routine COPD treatment?!

    Gryph (08c844)

  193. The guy insisted that he was treated for COPD and never tested for CoViD-19. You’re going to assume that he was lying, and that government agents were telling the truth? SMDH… This is why we can’t have nice things, America.

    You mean his wife said that, because words matter. He wouldn’t comment. Of course, the hospital, governor, police chief, health department, judge, etc, etc. but sure, his wife, says it’s all mistaken identity, or something.

    Then there’s the fact that the police are also there to protect the man from the public, who knows who he is, and has been getting threats, from the public. But those jackbooted thugs, the public or the police, whichever supports your narrative, is definitely doing a thing, some thing, maybe.

    But it’s definitely not the fault of the dumb@$$ ignoring public safety, because FREEDUMB, or something.

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827)

  194. 185… yep, ulb, buying fresh is much preferred, but the tortillas from la Tortilla Factory that are sold by some of the stores will do in a pinch.

    Colonel Haiku (ac91f9)

  195. 192. To protect and serve, huh? Do we need another basic civics lesson here, to point out that the cops aren’t there to protect you and can not be held liable for their failure to do so?! They are instruments of the state. And it boggles me to think about how many closet statists have been hiding here in these comments for so long.

    Gryph (08c844)

  196. Speaking of tortillas…..

    https://m.facebook.com/DubuquePD/posts/2944254688966216
    _

    harkin (b64479)

  197. Gryph (08c844) — 3/20/2020 @ 5:30 pm

    Reread my comment and try again. I didn’t say it was voluntary. I said voluntary ends at a point. They that have shown an obvious disregard for the safety of others might not be entitled to the full benefits of the social contract.

    frosty (f27e97)

  198. 196. What if someone else is out there with CoViD-19 because this guy who was put under quarantine got someone else’s paperwork mixed up with his? That doesn’t sound like a very good way to serve public health.

    And if he was tested and did indeed come back positive, do you think it serves public health for every sick individual in an ER to be tested against their will?

    Gryph (08c844)

  199. 177… “Another example of what it’s why it’s called ‘flyover country.’
    And Don Lemon smiled

    Heh. It’s unclear why this guy lives in the USA.

    Colonel Haiku (ac91f9)

  200. To protect and serve, huh? Do we need another basic civics lesson here, to point out that the cops aren’t there to protect you and can not be held liable for their failure to do so?! They are instruments of the state. And it boggles me to think about how many closet statists have been hiding here in these comments for so long.

    Well, definitely don’t need police, don’t need paramedics, don’t need doctors, don’t need nurses, because STATIST threats, and whatnot.

    You’re positing a scenario that doesn’t exist, to justify, I don’t even exactly know what. You’re acting the fool for effect, because you think it’s cool? Awesome, you’re so kewl.

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827)

  201. What if someone else is out there with CoViD-19 because this guy who was put under quarantine got someone else’s paperwork mixed up with his? That doesn’t sound like a very good way to serve public health.

    And if he was tested and did indeed come back positive, do you think it serves public health for every sick individual in an ER to be tested against their will?

    And what if, what if, what if. All things that are not, actually, happening in reality.

    It’s nice that you have an imagination, but that isn’t the real world.

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827)

  202. OK – question about the CA lockdown:

    From my deck earlier today I saw at least five different sets of contractors/service providers doing things like working on a renovation, performing general landscaping, pool cleaning etc.

    Is this going against the lockdown order? Should they be warned and arrested if they continue?

    I heard Newsome say only those doing work deemed ‘essential’ should be venturing out. Now I’m sure all these people consider their work ‘essential’ in regards to making payroll and paying the numerous fees, insurance premiums etc. as well as pay their own personal bills but is that going too far?
    _

    harkin (b64479)

  203. U.S. intelligence reports from January and February warned about a likely pandemic

    U.S. intelligence agencies were issuing ominous, classified warnings in January and February about the global danger posed by the coronavirus while President Trump and lawmakers played down the threat and failed to take action that might have slowed the spread of the pathogen, according to U.S. officials familiar with spy agency reporting.

    […]

    Intelligence agencies “have been warning on this since January,” said a U.S. official who had access to intelligence reporting that was disseminated to members of Congress and their staffs as well as to officials in the Trump administration, and who, along with others, spoke on the condition of anonymity to describe sensitive information.

    “Donald Trump may not have been expecting this, but a lot of other people in the government were — they just couldn’t get him to do anything about it,” this official said. “The system was blinking red.”

    […]

    “In January, there was obviously a lot of chatter,” the official said.

    Inside the White House, Trump’s advisers struggled to get him to take the virus seriously, according to multiple officials with knowledge of meetings among those advisers and with the president.

    Azar couldn’t get through to Trump to speak with him about the virus until Jan. 18, according to two senior administration officials. When he reached Trump by phone, the president interjected to ask about vaping and when flavored vaping products would be back on the market, the senior administration officials said.

    On Jan. 27, White House aides huddled with then-acting chief of staff Mick Mulvaney in his office, trying to get senior officials to pay more attention to the virus, according to people briefed on the meeting. Joe Grogan, the head of the White House Domestic Policy Council, argued that the administration needed to take the virus seriously or it could cost the president his reelection, and that dealing with the virus was likely to dominate life in the United States for many months.

    Mulvaney then began convening more regular meetings. In early briefings, however, officials said Trump was dismissive because he did not believe that the virus had spread widely throughout the United States.

    Read the whole thing; there’s a lot more, and it’s all damning.

    Dave (1bb933)

  204. Dave (1bb933) — 3/20/2020 @ 5:52 pm

    That “U.S. official who had access to intelligence reporting” probably would’ve gone straight to WaPo in January about what “a lot of other people in the government” knew, if only the scoop had been about impeachment or a phone call with Ukraine. Or something, anything, to get Roger Stone off the front page and grab the attention of #NeverTrump.

    Unfortunately, it was merely something about a deadly virus threatening the world or something …. whatever. Pfft… diversion.

    Munroe (dd6b64)

  205. 175… thx, NorCal!!!

    Colonel Haiku (ac91f9)

  206. Blogger Gusty Winds said…

    ***** Alexander: “Mr. President, do you feel like you are giving the American People false hope by suggesting Cloroquine may be and effective drug?”

    Trump: “You’re an asshole”

    ***** Alexander: “But what do you have to say to Americans who are scared (other than anything good)….”

    Trump: “You’re an even bigger asshole than you were a minute ago”

    ***** Alexander: “Me??? An asshole? I was just giving you an opportunity to reassure the American People”

    Colonel Haiku (ac91f9)

  207. @202:

    “Maybe there’s a way to make a profit in this.” – Butch Cassidy [Paul Newman] ‘Butch Cassidy And The Sundance Kid’ 1969

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  208. Dave (1bb933) — 3/20/2020 @ 5:52 pm

    Read the whole thing; there’s a lot more, and it’s all damning.

    Of course it is. How could it not be. We’re in a pile of s*** and it’s s*** sandwiches for the foreseeable future. It’s too bad the press, nevertrump, the opposition party, and anonymous sources have the combined credibility of the poo flinging monkey at the zoo.

    frosty (f27e97)

  209. Monroe (dd6b64) — 3/20/2020 @ 6:11 pm

    Whatever you do, don’t ever change.

    Dave (1bb933)

  210. The stock market says it all: Trump is a good-time Charlie. When the going gets tough, he sucks swallows chokes!

    nk (1d9030)

  211. Not much risk of that.

    Leviticus (28a6ca)

  212. @201 I think they are letting businesses decide who is essential for their operation. Besides, if your kitchen wall was open to the wind and rain and/or heat, you’d think your renovation was pretty essential too. 😛

    Nic (896fdf)

  213. 207… clueless, usually wrong, but never in doubt.

    Colonel Haiku (ac91f9)

  214. It’s too bad the press, nevertrump, the opposition party, and anonymous sources have the combined credibility of the poo flinging monkey at the zoo.

    No, it’s too bad that the poo-flinging monkey at the zoo was the one with responsibility to respond to a crisis that threatens the health and livelihood of tens of millions of Americans.

    And all he did for two months was fling poo…

    Dave (1bb933)

  215. I am thankful the guys who replaced our dual HVAC system finished the work on Monday. Also that my wife nagged me until I gave the thumbs-up!

    Colonel Haiku (ac91f9)

  216. 213 short and extremely selective memory. Like a terrier, but less entertaining.

    Colonel Haiku (ac91f9)

  217. It’s too bad the press, nevertrump, the opposition party, and anonymous sources have the combined credibility of the poo flinging monkey at the zoo.

    Naw. T-rumpRealists have WAY more credibility than you cult leader. He showed his fat ass again today.

    Ragspierre (d9bec9)

  218. Not 213… 214.

    Colonel Haiku (ac91f9)

  219. Tomorrow’ headline:

    Trump Blames China’s Fling-Poo For Kung-Flu.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  220. Read your governor’s lockdown order, Haiku. If it’s like Illinois’s, and those things are pretty uniform because they have to comply with federal law, your HVAC contractor is an essential infrastructure business and therefore exempt from the lockdown. So are lawyers, BTW.

    nk (1d9030)

  221. So are lawyers, BTW.

    We don’t need to guess who drafts the lockdown orders, do we?

    Dave (1bb933)

  222. @221 Gryph’s friend in KY gets arrested again and he can’t get access to any attorney Gryph’s going to be pretty upset about this clear and offensive violation of basic civil liberties. In this case I’d agree with him.

    frosty (f27e97)

  223. You’re just jealous because you’re only allowed to travel to pick up your computer for e-learning.

    nk (1d9030)

  224. 220… it wasn’t so much a worry about the company shutting down, it was more that they’re already in their busy season and this will only complicate matters.

    Colonel Haiku (ac91f9)

  225. I would suspect that in true lockdown situation both the state attorney and public defender’s offices would have personnel assigned to camp out for any necessary hearings. Not to mention the judge.

    But given the potential for an outbreak of cases among other inmates, the local authorities might not want Gryph’s friend in jail to begin with.

    Kishnevi (dfca54)

  226. “ I think they are letting businesses decide who is essential for their operation. Besides, if your kitchen wall was open to the wind and rain and/or heat, you’d think your renovation was pretty essential too.”

    If so I expect to see continued leaf-blowin, pool cleanin and driveway re-surfacin along with wall-completin’

    harkin (b64479)

  227. The condo association for the townhouses in which I live has been tenting our buildings for termites, one a month. This weekend was the turn of the building across from mine.

    Danged if they didn’t go ahead and do it on schedule. It’s a six unit building.

    Kishnevi (dfca54)

  228. Property maintenance and repair is included. So is cannabis production and distribution.

    nk (1d9030)

  229. @223. Ahhhh, ‘jealousy’…

    “Democratic California Gov. Gavin Newsom finds it “interesting” that his ex-wife, Kimberly Guilfoyle, is now dating Donald Trump Jr.” – pagesix.com – 3/15/19

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  230. Does this strike you all a little like “funemployment” with the condition that you stay home with the kids and learn how to cook?

    nk (1d9030)

  231. Kishnevi (dfca54) — 3/20/2020 @ 7:20 pm

    Are you telling me I have no choice but to accept the attorney the state assigns; come and see the violence inherent in the system!

    frosty (f27e97)

  232. @228. Feelin’ Groovy: ‘Pot Stores’ are considered essential businesses in CA.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  233. There are always prosecutors, public defenders and judges on beeper, even in non-lockdown times.

    nk (1d9030)

  234. Don Jr. and Jeff Bezos. You’d think with their money, they could afford to get themselves new women and not pre-owned ones.

    nk (1d9030)

  235. Are you telling me I have no choice but to accept the attorney the state assigns; come and see the violence inherent in the system

    The PD office routinely serves as defense lawyer at magistrate/bond hearings for anyone who doesn’t have their own attorney on hand, even if the arrestee clearly doesn’t qualify for public defender representation. A lot of arrestees at those hearings haven’t had a chance to hire an attorney yet, simply because of the time span between arrest and hearing.

    Kishnevi (dfca54)

  236. I’ll be curious to see the effect on traffic accidents during the lockdown, but I don’t think we’ll see the statistics. The liquor racket will suppress them.

    nk (1d9030)

  237. @169, though I don’t know why I should waste the time:

    There’s a pretty good reason why South Korea has more confirmed cases, care to guess why?

    Actually, I know why, smarty pants, and you very obviously don’t. And the reason has nothing to do with Korea choosing to respect individual rights more than the United States of America, a fact – yes, fact – that I would have disputed until this week, when it became glaringly obvious, as proven by the ultra-proud submissive compliance of people like you.

    As for why there are more confirmed cases here, I don’t have to “guess,” because unlike you, I’m not talking out my other end. I actually live here.

    Here’s why: At the very outset of this outbreak in China, before anyone had discovered it, let alone named it, a very large cultish church group from the central South Korean city of Daegu traveled to Wuhan. They brought it back with them and spread it among themselves, and then secondarily around various provinces of this very tiny peninsula over the course of a couple of weeks. Again, this was before people were even aware covid-19 was a thing.

    That’s why, even to this day – as you would know if you weren’t just blabbering — more than ninety percent of confirmed Korean cases are in the city of Daegu. And that in spite of the fact that not a single province of this densely populated little country has been under police state lockdown for one single hour.

    Care to stick your sarcasm where the sun don’t shine, Colonel phony-baloney?

    WTF are you talking about? Literally nothing you said is true.

    “Literally” which parts are false? Don’t bother. You have already established that you have no knowledge whatsoever about any part of what I am talking about, let alone about the person talking.

    It’s almost like you’re posting from a foreign script, hmm.
    Putin smiled.

    Gee that’s awesome trolling. Clever as hell. For your information, which I’m sure you’ll digest about as well as you’ve digested any other part of this, I have been writing publicly about Putin and his subversive efforts for years. You’re welcome to look it up.

    I really don’t care what you will say in reply, if anything, because I know it will be as useless as what you’ve said before. I merely put this out there because I’ve noticed there are still a few people left in this thread honestly trying to figure out what’s happening, rather than playing “gotcha” games for sub-political debate points. I feel genuine sympathy for their plight, as they watch their country ceding its soul to progressive authoritarian opportunism and media cynicism, thanks to the likes of you, i.e., people who, like Donald Trump by the way, have a knack for making cowardly surrender sound like bravado.

    Daren Jonescu (2f5857)


Powered by WordPress.

Page loaded in: 0.1808 secs.