Patterico's Pontifications

3/17/2020

Claims About Trump Administration Having Dissolved Its Pandemic Response Office

Filed under: General — Dana @ 8:50 am



[guest post by Dana]

Four days ago, Beth Cameron, who previously served as the senior director for global health security and biodefense on the White House National Security Council, wrote in The WashingtonPost:

When President Trump took office in 2017, the White House’s National Security Council Directorate for Global Health Security and Biodefense survived the transition intact. Its mission was the same as when I was asked to lead the office, established after the Ebola epidemic of 2014: to do everything possible within the vast powers and resources of the U.S. government to prepare for the next disease outbreak and prevent it from becoming an epidemic or pandemic.

One year later, I was mystified when the White House dissolved the office, leaving the country less prepared for pandemics like covid-19.

The U.S. government’s slow and inadequate response to the new coronavirus underscores the need for organized, accountable leadership to prepare for and respond to pandemic threats.

In a health security crisis, speed is essential. When this new coronavirus emerged, there was no clear White House-led structure to oversee our response, and we lost valuable time. Yes, we have capable and committed global and national disease-prevention and management organizations, as well as state and local health departments, all working overtime now. But even in prepared cities like Seattle, health systems are struggling to test patients and keep pace with growing caseloads. The specter of rapid community transmission and exponential growth is real and daunting. The job of a White House pandemics office would have been to get ahead: to accelerate the response, empower experts, anticipate failures, and act quickly and transparently to solve problems.

It’s impossible to assess the full impact of the 2018 decision to disband the White House office responsible for this work. Biological experts do remain in the White House and in our government. But it is clear that eliminating the office has contributed to the federal government’s sluggish domestic response. What’s especially concerning about the absence of this office today is that it was originally set up because a previous epidemic made the need for it quite clear.

[…]

It’s unclear whether the decision to disband the directorate, which was made in May 2018, after John Bolton became national security adviser, was a tactical move to downgrade the issue or whether it was part of the White House’s interest in simplifying and shrinking the National Security Council staff. Either way, it left an unclear structure and strategy for coordinating pandemic preparedness and response. Experts outside government and on Capitol Hill called for the office’s reinstatement at the time.

Cameron concludes:

Pandemics, like weapons of mass destruction and climate change, are transnational threats with potentially existential consequences. No single department or agency can be responsible for handling them. Pandemic threats may not arise every year, but the White House should constantly prepare for them. We can’t afford for federal decision-makers to waste time relearning old lessons when they should be innovating and acting.

Covid-19 wasn’t preventable, but it was predictable.

Yesterday, Tim Morrison, senior fellow at the Hudson Institute and former senior director for counterproliferation and biodefense on the National Security Council, responded to the claim that the Trump administration “dissolved the office” at the White House in charge of pandemic preparedness:

President Trump gets his share of criticism — some warranted, much not. But recently the president’s critics have chosen curious ground to question his response to the coronavirus outbreak since it began spreading from Wuhan, China, in December.

It has been alleged by multiple officials of the Obama administration, including in The Post, that the president and his then-national security adviser, John Bolton, “dissolved the office” at the White House in charge of pandemic preparedness. Because I led the very directorate assigned that mission, the counterproliferation and biodefense office, for a year and then handed it off to another official who still holds the post, I know the charge is specious.

Morrison goes on to discuss that the department was more than just robust:

It is true that the Trump administration has seen fit to shrink the NSC staff. But the bloat that occurred under the previous administration clearly needed a correction. Defense Secretary Robert Gates, congressional oversight committees and members of the Obama administration itself all agreed the NSC was too large and too operationally focused (a departure from its traditional role coordinating executive branch activity). As The Post reported in 2015, from the Clinton administration to the Obama administration’s second term, the NSC’s staff “had quadrupled in size, to nearly 400 people.” That is why Trump began streamlining the NSC staff in 2017.

According to Morrison, what the media media is conveying to the public – that the Trump “dissolved the office” at the White House in charge of pandemic preparedness, was really the result of streamlining, three important directorates and merging them into one stronger, single directorate:

One such move at the NSC was to create the counterproliferation and biodefense directorate, which was the result of consolidating three directorates into one, given the obvious overlap between arms control and nonproliferation, weapons of mass destruction terrorism, and global health and biodefense. It is this reorganization that critics have misconstrued or intentionally misrepresented. If anything, the combined directorate was stronger because related expertise could be commingled.

While confident about current levels of staffing, Morrison goes on to address why this matters enough to speak up about the mischaracterization, whether unintentional or willful:

It matters because when people play politics in the middle of a crisis, we are all less safe…less safe because public servants are distracted when they are dragged into politics…less safe because the American people have been recklessly scared into doubting the competence of their government to help keep them safe, secure and healthy…less safe because when we’re focused on political gamesmanship, we’re not paying enough attention to the real issues…we should be united behind ensuring that, in a future congressional appropriations package, U.S. companies are encouraged to return to our shores from China the production of everything from medical face masks and personal protective equipment to vitamin C and penicillin.

–Dana

116 Responses to “Claims About Trump Administration Having Dissolved Its Pandemic Response Office”

  1. Good morning.

    Dana (4fb37f)

  2. Good post. Thanks for the context.

    Make America Ordered Again (23f793)

  3. I’ve been seeing this claim all over social media for the past four or five days. This is the perfect example of the lie circling the entire world before the truth can even get its pants on.

    FactCheck.org has now officially debunked this myth, so it will be interesting to see if these automated misinformation corrections start being appended to these bogus claims.

    JVW (54fd0b)

  4. Miller goes on to address why this matters enough to speak up about the mischaracterization, whether unintentional or willful:

    Where does Miller describe an “unintentional” action by Trump’s detractors?

    BuDuh (bc7703)

  5. It matters because when people play politics in the middle of a crisis, we are all less safe.

    And this blog has YET to correct its false statement that Google is not working on a testing website (IN ADDITION to the one being done by a subsidiary of Alphabet). See my post in your comment section, as well as Sammy’s.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  6. Absolutely good point, Kevin. It’s absurd (and wrong) that this hasn’t been corrected.

    Make America Ordered Again (23f793)

  7. Who is Miller? A reference to “Miller” appears out of nowhere.

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  8. Apologies, Col, I momentarily thought the writer was Miller and not Morrison, for some reason…

    Dana (4fb37f)

  9. It’s absurd (and wrong) that this hasn’t been corrected.

    Seriously?? Did it never occur to you (and Kevin M and Sammy) that I didn’t notice this? If I were a paid correspondent, I might be more pressed to forego responsibilities in my personal life and sit on threads to immediately jump on alleged discrepancies in posts, but as it is, I do have other responsibilities that take me away from the computer and this blog.

    With that, I will look into the matter when I can get to it. But hey, thanks for giving me the benefit of the doubt.

    Dana (4fb37f)

  10. No problem… I was thinking it was either that or I was missing something, which is more often the case, lol.

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  11. Kevin, your post doesn’t back up what you are saying.

    “Google is partnering with the US Government in developing a nationwide website that includes information about COVID-19 symptoms, risk and testing information. (2/6)

    is not the same as working on a website that can refer to testing sites nationwide.

    kishnevi (9ce8ca)

  12. Dana,

    Don’t feed the trolls. Alphabet is a restructured google. If you needed to clarify that it’s an incredibly minor clarification worthy of milhouse (the simpson’s character, not the commenter).

    Thanks for helping keep me entertained and informed despite having a life beyond journalism. There’s a reason this blog is great and instapundit and ace and other ‘need the clicks to make cash’ are terrible.

    Dustin (9c58b3)

  13. This must have been a dilemma for the White House. Go with the false narrative and blame John Bolton, or correct it and pass up the chance to further dirty John Bolton.

    nk (1d9030)

  14. Dana,

    I would have notified you quietly had I had an email. Instead, I posted something (several somethings) in the article itself, with a link to the Twitter feed. There may be more information now.

    I figured that maybe you had not seen it, but all I really knew is that it had not been addressed so I brought it up again. I did not mean to impugn your motives.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  15. Don’t feed the trolls. Alphabet is a restructured google.

    Dustin, if Google and Alphabet are interchangeable, then the original point about Trump making that same mistake is also a “minor” quibble, not the major gaffe that Dana’s update suggests.

    Trump attributed something to Google. Verity, an Alphabet subsidiary, said “no, it’s US working on it”, and that got spread out as a Trump gaffe, including in Dana’s update. The next day, GOOGLE corrected the record, saying that they were indeed working with the US government on something similar. This did not get spread out nearly as much.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  16. Kevin, your post doesn’t back up what you are saying.

    “Google is partnering with the US Government in developing a nationwide website that includes information about COVID-19 symptoms, risk and testing information. (2/6)

    is not the same as working on a website that can refer to testing sites nationwide.

    Then what does “testing information” mean, exactly? But you are right it is not the “same.” Then again, we are talking about a politician’s understanding, and calling the above “discrepancy” a LIE is a bit harsh, don’t you think.

    Left to the reader is the question of whether the two Democrats, who think this is either SARS or Ebola, are any better.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  17. Yeah, that is a super-critical important point, can’t believe Dana didn’t drop everything to set the record straight on that one. ABSURD.

    /sarc

    Leviticus (efada1)

  18. If you combine all the offices into a single one, but fire all the people who actually did the job, the semantics are unimportant, the outcome is the point.

    Regardless, would this office have made the focus of the administration happen in Feb instead of mid March, even if they had 100 people? Somehow I doubt that.

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827)

  19. Seriously?? Did it never occur to you (and Kevin M and Sammy) that I didn’t notice this?

    All three of us pointed it out, so no, it didn’t occur to me before now. Since it’s just an oversight, then no worries: it can be corrected now.

    However, unlike what Leviticus said, I don’t think (and I am sure you don’t think) it would be right to leave misleading negative information like that uncorrected. In fact, why I am sure you wouldn’t want to is your post today, which was fair and I commended you for, pointing out the misleading claim that Trump had shut down the White House team responsible for dealing with biological threats.

    In a nutshell, I’m glad you have the integrity to correct it. I’m sure Kevin and Sammy were, like myself, perplexed that you didn’t.

    P.S. Paid or not, I think a blogger who has chosen to enter the realm of political discussion should be willing to correct obvious errors painting others in a negative night then they are revealed. Along those lines, I accept that you overlooked, rather than refused to correct, this error. Bottom line is Trump had information about Google (Alphabet) assisting and he was right and honest when he said they were.

    Make America Ordered Again (23f793)

  20. Yeah, that is a super-critical important point, can’t believe Dana didn’t drop everything to set the record straight on that one. ABSURD.

    He called the President a liar (“He continues to show a remarkable inability to be truthful and accurate.”) for that picayune apparent discrepancy that was, in the event, false.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  21. *twhen they are revealed

    Make America Ordered Again (23f793)

  22. If you combine all the offices into a single one, but fire all the people who actually did the job, the semantics are unimportant, the outcome is the point.

    Or blow them up with bazookas. Oh, wait that didn’t happen, and neither did what you said either.

    They combined them into one, and eliminated redundancies in staff. It’s one of those things that people who actually have RUN a business do, and people who empire-build do not.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  23. Look, people, this IS a crisis. Yes, the guy in charge isn’t our choice (not that the alternative was either). But he’s what we’ve got and he is (finally) trying to rise to the occasion, if not just for self-preservation. Stop kicking the man and work with him so long as he is walking in approximately the right direction.

    PLENTY of time later for blame.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  24. Trump attributed something to Google. Verity, an Alphabet subsidiary, said “no, it’s US working on it”, and that got spread out as a Trump gaffe, including in Dana’s update. The next day, GOOGLE corrected the record, saying that they were indeed working with the US government on something similar. This did not get spread out nearly as much.

    I don’t think that was the problem, it was that Google, and Verily, weren’t doing what Trump said.

    Google is kindo of backing into doing a thing, but it’s still not the thing Trump talked about.

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827)

  25. Yeah, that is a super-critical important point, can’t believe Dana didn’t drop everything to set the record straight on that one. ABSURD.

    He called the President a liar (“He continues to show a remarkable inability to be truthful and accurate.”) for that picayune apparent discrepancy that was, in the event, false.

    As much as I appreciate Dana simply overlooked this and will correct it as time permits, and also appreciate Dana’s excellent post today correcting a recent negative misperception/misinfo/lie spread by others about President Trump, Dana said what he said above… and it is inaccurate and unintentionally defamatory. What is absurd is your assertion Dana, now aware of it, shouldn’t correct it in a timely way.

    That is actually wrong, Leviticus.

    Make America Ordered Again (23f793)

  26. They combined them into one, and eliminated redundancies in staff. It’s one of those things that people who actually have RUN a business do, and people who empire-build do not.

    Well, of course the pandemic folks were redundant there wasn’t a need, until there was. Then it was critical, that is why the government isn’t a business. Having a standing army isn’t good business, it’s expensive and you only use a fraction of its capacity even in wartime.

    Q Mr. President, last night, you said you had not anticipated this kind of thing happening. Would you rethink then having an Office of Pandemic Preparation in the White House that is point on (inaudible)?

    THE PRESIDENT: I just think this is something, Peter, that you can never really think is going to happen. You know, who — I’ve heard all about, “This could be…” — you know, “This could be a big deal,” from before it happened. You know, this — something like this could happen.

    I think we’re doing a really good job in this country at keeping it down. We’ve really been very vigilant, and we’ve done a tremendous job at keeping to down.

    But who would have thought? Look, how long ago is it? Six, seven, eight weeks ago — who would have thought we would even be having the subject? We were going to hit 30,000 on the Dow like it was clockwork. Right? It was all going — it was right up, and then all of a sudden, this came out.

    And all I say is, “Be calm.” We have the greatest people in the world. Everyone is relying on us. The world is relying on us. They’ve done an incredible job in a very condensed period of time.

    And the thing is, you never really know when something like this is going to strike and what it’s going to be. This is different than something else. This is a very different thing than something else.

    So I think they’ve done a great job. And you know what? If I didn’t think they did, I’d tell you.

    Q But do you think there’s value in having an office in the White House that’s preparing for this kind of (inaudible)?

    THE PRESIDENT: Well, I just don’t think — I just don’t think that somebody is going to — without seeing something, like we saw something happening in China. As soon as they saw that happening, they essentially — not from the White House. I mean, you know, we don’t need a lab in the White House. But they saw something happening.

    I found it very interesting. They spotted something going on in China. When you see these labs that I just saw — and I would love to have them see it if it’s possible — but they spotted something going on in China. They started working on it immediately just in case it should come here, and also to help China. I mean, if we could find something that’s beneficial, we want to give it to China like they’re going to want to give it to us. China is working very closely with us — South Korea, Italy, all of them. They’ve been working very closely.

    But we’re doing — you know, again, 240 and 11. That’s where we are right now.

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827)

  27. Did Trump tell the truth about this google website? Nope. What he described was fictional. Do Trump trolls project Trump’s exaggeration and outright lies onto Trump’s critics, every damn time? Yep. To them it’s a game.

    And no, Kevin, the crisis Trump screwed up is not a good reason to hold our criticism of Dear Leader. I am trying to imagine you saying this about Obama. Of course Obama never screwed up this badly so it’s hard to imagine on a number of levels, but this is Trump… he’s already blamed Bush for 9/11 and blamed Biden for this coronavirus. The idea we should give him special respect he gives no one is simple (and frankly stupid) partisanship

    Dustin (9c58b3)

  28. Nearly everything that Trump has done here has been correct, other than thinking that the initial travel order solved the problem. Maybe someone sold it to him that way, don’t know, but blocking travel from China when he did gave the US about a month more time to prepare.

    Yes, he attempted to minimize the fear, and is incredibly clumsy at communicating outside his bubble, but his mistakes have been far less than everyone else’s. Remember, the Chinese never warned us and tied to hide it all for 2 months, going so far as to censor the information. Blame them, not America first.

    I am fuckking sick and tired of all the little potshots some people are taking, when the house is burning down.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  29. Nearly everything that Trump has done here has been correct, other than thinking that the initial travel order solved the problem. Maybe someone sold it to him that way, don’t know, but blocking travel from China when he did gave the US about a month more time to prepare.

    Yes, he attempted to minimize the fear, and is incredibly clumsy at communicating outside his bubble, but his mistakes have been far less than everyone else’s. Remember, the Chinese never warned us and tied to hide it all for 2 months, going so far as to censor the information. Blame them, not America first.

    I am fuc&ing sick and tired of all the little potshots some people are taking, when the house is burning down.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  30. Amain, amain, Dustin.

    Ragspierre (d9bec9)

  31. Nearly everything that Trump has done here has been correct…

    BWAAAAAAAAHAHAHA…gasp….HAHAHAHA

    Ragspierre (d9bec9)

  32. Kevin, I know you mean well, but Trump spent three years screwing this up. He did a horrible job. Honestly he should be removed from office via impeachment for his terrible performance. It’s the worst I’ve ever seen a president handle anything. Yes, he flip flopped and is trying to do better now, thankfully, and by all means praise that, but he’s still blaming Biden for this virus, after gutting his capacity to anticipate and handle the unexpected, and after saying (lying) that this virus was contained. There’s a reason all these trump fans are laughing about fake democrat panic. Bad leadership.

    You’re right that we shouldn’t take pot shots at eachother. We should identify examples of what’s going well, and there’s a lot going well. But one of the things that is going well is that we as a people are realizing big personalities are not a substitute for professionals. America’s joy at blasting politicians is one of the things I would celebrate.

    Dustin (9c58b3)

  33. 28… yes, as if anyone needed a reminder, the Left and NeverTrump are showing what they are made of.

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  34. Dustin,

    In the last debate Biden called the virus “SARS” and Bernie called it “Ebola.” I grade on the curve of late, since neither party sees fit to offer us a decent candidate. I can tell sh1t from Shinola, but sometimes there is no Shinola.

    As far as correct action: Trump stopped flights from China. If I ahd the time, I would go back and find those comments from some of the people attacking him now, who attacked him for that, then. He then attempted to calm things down amid rising panic; no doubt there was pressure to do that from Wall Street.

    This was both right and wrong, but the rightest action — hunker down — would not have been accepted by anyone at the time, and the epidemiologists had to accept that. Later, when the EU travel band came down, the same people were all up ion arms, or complaining that the TSA and Customs couldn’t get their act together. As if any bureaucracy has ever reacted to an emergency well or quickly.

    It is really only in the last week, maybe two, that the real import of breaking the transmission became apparent, and Trump has got his marching orders and is following them. And stll if you talk to anyone under, oh, 40, they will tell you they don’t see a big deal and how can youi make their bar/job/store/etc close down! “I got rights, man! Those fogies ought to be the ones who lock themselves in!”

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  35. “Trump spent three years screwing this up. He did a horrible job. Honestly he should be removed from office via impeachment for his terrible performance.”
    Dustin (9c58b3) — 3/17/2020 @ 12:42 pm

    What better way to focus a president’s attention on real issues than threaten him with impeachment daily since Inauguration Day.

    If it’s fair to blame Trump for unnecessary deaths, it’s fair to blame those who had a laser beam focus on nonsense for three years. Look in the mirror, Dustin.

    Munroe (dd6b64)

  36. If it’s fair to blame Trump for unnecessary deaths, it’s fair to blame those who had a laser beam focus on nonsense for three years. Look in the mirror, Dustin.

    How ’bout a lil’ blame-sharing for those who’ve been enabling this thug for flucking YEARS?

    Hmmmm…???

    Ragspierre (d9bec9)

  37. Dustin,

    Always keep the following in mind — I am not saying that Trump is a good president. I may think less of him than you do. But he is, for better or worse, THE President, duly elected by a 230-yo procedure. And now we are in a crisis, not of our making and attributable to a dictator’s rule under a pernicious system, and we only have Donald effing Trump to defend us. Perhaps there is a lesson to learn here, but it should include “How bad did the Establishment screw up that this seemed like a good idea?”

    As for impeachment, if they had charged him with the crimes of incompetence, malfeasance and all-around stupidity as they should have, then maybe he could have been removed. Instead Pelosi chose charges that were unlikely to resonate politically, and they didn’t. I don’t think she wanted a conviction.

    In any event, the milk is spilled and this incessant carping over who didn’t watch the milk is tiring.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  38. @31. Trump is certainly a class-A doofus, but it’s hard to blame him for this bug- it’s like blaming him for bad weather.

    What Trump can and rightly be held accountable for is the haphazard, weeks-behind-the-curve-response at the Federal level, just as Bush was rightly pegged for Katrina.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  39. And stll if you talk to anyone under, oh, 40, they will tell you they don’t see a big deal and how can youi make their bar/job/store/etc close down! “I got rights, man! Those fogies ought to be the ones who lock themselves in!”

    I was talking today about the restrictions that have been imposed on us, and both the importance and limits of relying on experts and professionals.

    Experts can tell you the likely outcomes and risks if you take certain steps or don’t. If we do X, then Y people will likely die, and Z people will get sick, and the effect on the healthcare infrastructure. Of course, we don’t always know everything, so it ends up being an educated guess.

    But nothing is done without a price. The current almost-lockdown will have a severe price tag: on the economy, on children’s education, on psychology of citizens, even on the political system. (Ohio’s governor just cancelled the Democratic primary. Are we willing to do that to the November election?) And the longer this goes on, the worse it will be.

    Whether the benefit is worth the costs is NOT something an expert can tell you. That is a judgment call. A degree in epidemeology does not qualify you to say that it is worth a severe recession, losing 4 months of education and the other costs, to do what we are doing.

    The nearest analogy I can think of is Harry Truman deciding to drop the atom bomb. Each choice – doing so or not doing so – clearly would have very significant repercussions, and what they would be were not fully known, but only educated guesses. (Incinerate two cities and unleash a new weapon on the world vs. 1 million American casualties to invade Japan).

    This kind of decision can only be made at the top, by someone who has the insight and intellect to think through what is being decided.

    Unfortunately, we have a buffoon in the Whites House, whose gut reaction to everything is himself and how the issue du jour advantages or disadvantages him.

    Maybe we are doing the right thing. Maybe not. I so far have seen little discussion about whether we are – there is just an assumption that we need to do the maximum to contain the virus, regardless of the cost. And I have no confidence that the current president has fully engaged on the issue.

    Bored Lawyer (56c962)

  40. OT- Duncan Hunter, Jr., [R] sentenced to 11 months in prison.

    Duke Cunnginham’s cell awaits.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  41. “How ’bout a lil’ blame-sharing for those who’ve been enabling this thug for flucking YEARS?”
    Ragspierre (d9bec9) — 3/17/2020 @ 1:02 pm

    They’re called voters, and your side have been blaming them since forever.

    Munroe (dd6b64)

  42. @31. Trump is certainly a class-A doofus, but it’s hard to blame him for this bug- it’s like blaming him for bad weather.

    If someone is blaming Trump for the existence of viruses that crossed from species to species, yes, that is a silly thing to do.

    If someone is blaming Trump for the exodus of non-bootlickers from his administration, leaving him totally unprepared, and then his knee-jerk reaction that the looming problem is “contained”, they are being quite reasonable.

    We’re not blaming Trump for bad weather. We’re blaming him for throwing all the umbrellas away and saying that dark cloud is going to go the other way.

    It is good that he flip flopped. But while doing so, he blamed Biden (because to Trump, literally everything is about muddying up his political opponent… nothing else matters).

    To Biden’s critics, it may seem important to keep things under control so Biden doesn’t win a landslide. To me, someone who doesn’t really care one way or the other between two very similar bad politicians, it’s just something to entertain myself with.

    Dustin (9c58b3)

  43. What Trump can and rightly be held accountable for is the haphazard, weeks-behind-the-curve-response at the Federal level, just as Bush was rightly pegged for Katrina.

    “weeks-behind the curve” is it? So, in the middle of February, he should have ordered all the bars, resaurants, most businesses closed and meetings limited to 10 people? Boy, that would have worked out well. People would have called him a dictator and tyrant, Congress would have impeached again, and the people would have ignored him utterly.

    But it would have been the right thing and it still would have been late. If the timeline is right, the Consumer Electronics show the first week of January in Vegas was probably the first locus of infection. I know a number of people who “caught a bad flu” right after.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  44. They’re called voters, and your side have been blaming them since forever.

    That’s simply a li…gross untruth. On several levels.

    My “side” never blamed any voter for voting their conscience. And, just a reality bite, “voters” chose the other thug, not YOUR thug.

    Those I blame are the T-rump sucking cultists. They are un-American.

    Ragspierre (d9bec9)

  45. …just as Bush was rightly pegged for Katrina.

    I’ve heard that there are idiots who hold that view…

    Ragspierre (d9bec9)

  46. Just to follow up on my post at #38, even though we have committed to this course, the issue is not going away. The next decision down the road is how long to sustain the current lock-down. Let’s say a month goes by. At that point, you have to decide whether to continue or not. The longer you go, the costs keep going up, while the benefits, at least ostensibly go down.

    I am having a very hard time seeing the public putting up with this more than a month. Time will tell.

    Bored Lawyer (56c962)

  47. Apologies to Paul Simon…

    Run That Body Down Toilet Paper in This Town

    Went to my doctor yesterday
    He said I seem to be OK
    He said, “Old man, you better look around
    How long you think you’ll find
    Toilet paper in this town?
    How many nights you think you can
    Poo like you been pooin’?
    Who, now who you foolin?”

    I came back home and I went to bed
    I was resting my head
    My wife came in and she said
    “What’s wrong, old man, what’s wrong?”
    I told her what’s wrong
    I said, “Hon, you better look at this face
    How long you think you can
    Shelter in one place?
    How many stores will let you
    Buy that paper by the case?
    Who, now, who you foolin?”

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  48. Kevin M,

    You’re quite simply wrong. Stop demanding Dana correct something that wasn’t wrong. Stop using my site to spread misinformation. Start demanding that Trump stop making things up.

    Patterico (115b1f)

  49. Trump claim:

    I want to thank Google. Google is helping to develop a website. It’s going to be very quickly done, unlike websites of the past, to determine whether a test is warranted and to facilitate testing at a nearby convenient location.

    We have many, many locations behind us, by the way. We cover the — this country in large part. So the world, by the way — we’re not going to be talking about the world right now. But we cover very, very strongly our country. Stores in virtually every location.

    Google has 1,700 engineers working on this right now. They’ve made tremendous progress. Our overriding goal is to stop the spread of the virus and to help all Americans who have been impacted by this.

    Reality:

    We’re partnering with the U.S. government in developing a website dedicated to COVID-19 education, prevention, and local resources nationwide. This includes best practices on prevention, links to authoritative information from the World Health Organization (WHO) and the Centers for Disease Control (CDC), and helpful tips and tools from Google for individuals, teachers and businesses.

    Google has said nothing to indicate that they will be rolling out a Web site of the type Trump described. They had a tool in the Bay Area, not nationwide, to help triage people, and have not committed to making that nationwide.

    kishnevi above has it right.

    Patterico (115b1f)

  50. But nothing is done without a price. The current almost-lockdown will have a severe price tag: on the economy, on children’s education, on psychology of citizens, even on the political system. (Ohio’s governor just cancelled the Democratic primary. Are we willing to do that to the November election?) And the longer this goes on, the worse it will be.

    Good point. This is going to have many negative consequences and this social distancing is not going to be free. A lot of folks are ignoring their personal cost because they don’t want to be whiney in the face of potential massive hospitalizations and death. If this thing is a success and we see a lot less misery, I expect people to be infuriated (despite how good that would be).

    One potential benefit is that I bet telecommuting will become a much more common thing. To a valuable hard working employee, it’s great to be less distracted, eat at home, not commute. To a slouch, it’s great because you don’t have supervision. I think there will be some new ideas about how to manage between them, but you can save an awful lot of time and money by letting people work at home.

    On the flip side of that, a lot of community college and mid-tier university students will end the semester happy with the online classes. The UT Co-Op is offering free electronic materials instead of the $200 textbooks… many will be wondering why we needed those physical books when we have Kindles and laptops. It’s actually really educational to do things while reading about them. If I could change one thing about our higher ed, it would be to require (paid, not intern) employment while a student, ideally in the field you’re studying. Online classes make that a lot more realistic.

    Dustin (9c58b3)

  51. 31. I know you mean well, but Trump spent three years screwing this up. He did a horrible job. Honestly he should be removed from office via impeachment for his terrible performance. It’s the worst I’ve ever seen a president handle anything.

    You have no concept of the founding of this Nation, the Constitution as its chartering document, or impeachment. While you are wrong about the Presidents performance, impeachment is a last gasp process that requires a super majority to convict and remove a sitting President for <High crimes and misdemeanors
    As usual your wild accusations and total lack of understanding of simple concepts has you posting nonsense bolstered by political idiocy.

    Iowan2 (bbb95d)

  52. Trump Critics were wrong and exaggerated what happened. But if you look at it from a certain angle – they were right. just like they always are.

    rcocean (9d9291)

  53. Always keep the following in mind — I am not saying that Trump is a good president. I may think less of him than you do. But he is, for better or worse, THE President, duly elected by a 230-yo procedure. And now we are in a crisis, not of our making and attributable to a dictator’s rule under a pernicious system, and we only have Donald effing Trump to defend us. Perhaps there is a lesson to learn here, but it should include “How bad did the Establishment screw up that this seemed like a good idea?”

    As for impeachment, if they had charged him with the crimes of incompetence, malfeasance and all-around stupidity as they should have, then maybe he could have been removed. Instead Pelosi chose charges that were unlikely to resonate politically, and they didn’t. I don’t think she wanted a conviction.

    In any event, the milk is spilled and this incessant carping over who didn’t watch the milk is tiring.

    Kevin M (ab1c11) — 3/17/2020 @ 1:03 pm

    Many good points here. Especially ‘how did the establishment get so bad that Trump was possible’. I would say that’s the biggest takeaway, though I almost expect DRJ to come in and (correctly) point out that the establishment helped Trump out of fear that Cruz might actually change things. The establishment’s sneering + an easily swayed people led to a pretty unfortunate result.

    At any rate, we do agree that it would be best if Trump stayed on track and succeeded. It’s obviously in his political best interest to do so.

    Also, someone mentioned Katrina… I think Bush was treated unfairly there, but the fact is, the media can use disaster to ruin Republicans, fair or not. It’s going to be a really hard year for the GOP. Trump vs Biden… yawn. But if the GOP gets a second chance to run a different candidate, they definitely need to take it.

    Dustin (9c58b3)

  54. impeachment is a last gasp process that requires a super majority to convict and remove a sitting President for <High crimes and misdemeanors

    high crimes and bad behavior. The word misdemeanor means bad behavior. In other words, impeachment is for big crimes or little crimes. There’s no wrong way to eat this reeses.

    Dustin (9c58b3)

  55. @42. Ah, hell, Kevin, I had a very bad cough, sneezing and temperate from late January right through February into early March. I am still coughing a little– allergies, flu, cold– whatever. Shows up every February… did quick little hack =cough= from behind my mask in the grocery store yesterday and it literally spooked some dude out of the aisle– it’s how I got that last can of baked beans.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  56. Spotted recently on the Internet.

    Old school: Coughing loudly to cover up the sound of passing gas.
    New school: Farting loudly to cover up the sound of coughing.

    JVW (54fd0b)

  57. Spotted: at today’s WH briefing– only Trump was wearing a green tie.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  58. And, on a lighter note:

    Why bidets are better than buying countless rolls of toilet paper

    https://www.businessinsider.com/bidets-better-than-using-just-toilet-paper-2019-9

    Americans use about 34 million rolls of toilet paper a day. Investing in a bidet can significantly lower your spending on toilet paper.

    Using a bidet is cleaner than just using toilet paper and can lead to fewer instances of rashes, hemorrhoids, and UTIs.

    Some basic bidet toilet seat attachments can cost as low as $25 on Amazon.

    No problem capitalism won’t solve.

    Then again, there is this:

    Amazon Restricts Shipments To Warehouses Amid Coronavirus

    As Amazon elevates the importance of delivering highly sought products amid the coronavirus pandemic, the eTailer said independent merchants would not be able to send merchandise to its warehouses except for household staples, medical products, and other items in high demand until early April, The Wall Street Journal reported.

    A spokesperson for the eCommerce retailer said per the report, “We are temporarily prioritizing household staples, medical supplies and other high-demand products coming into our fulfillment centers so we can more quickly receive, restock, and ship these products to customers.”

    Bored Lawyer (56c962)

  59. You should see what happens when someone coughs on an airplane, and if they’re visibly sick, oh my. Even if the illness is coughing from the wrong direction.

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827)

  60. @44. About 330 million of them.

    Ignorance is bliss– stay happy!

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  61. John Ekdahl
    @JohnEkdahl
    ·
    It is bizarre watching people who lose their minds over Russia buying facebook ads go whole hog into parroting Chinese propaganda during a literal pandemic.

    __ _

    harkin (89fd8e)

  62. And I have no confidence that the current president has fully engaged on the issue.

    Neither do I, but I also don’t know how much I WANT him to engage. What he is we are doing, is what everyone else is doing, with fewer missteps given the experience of others.

    China could lock everything down when they did because they don’t care about public opinion; here it matters a great deal. Trump would have had to declare martial law to do in February what he is now calling for in March. And the resistance would have been violent.

    I don’t feel sorry for Trump — he asked for this job — but I really don’t think it’s productive to snipe at him in a crisis. Far better would be to discuss the situation, what we should be doing vs what we are doing, without turning everything into partisan spin. I have limited hopes for that.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  63. Patterico (115b1f) — 3/17/2020 @ 1:37 pm

    Whatever. Our definitions of congruence and importance here seem to differ. I cannot in good conscience call what Trump said a “lie” and it pains me that you can. What Trump said is mostly correct, and the point of “gotcha” seems to be conflating Google, Alphabet and the myriad subsidiaries of each.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  64. “Google is partnering with the US Government in developing a nationwide website that includes information about COVID-19 symptoms, risk and testing information. (2/6)

    Google is creating a website that contains information about testing. Verity, a sister (or maybe niece) company is creating a website about whether you should get testing. What Trump said is not 1) a lie, and 2) not so important a difference that the President of the United States should be attacked for it in a crisis.

    I am pissed off not by the disrespect for Trump, who I generally do not respect, but for the disrespect for the attempts of the United States government and its President to deal with an emergent crisis.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  65. Its common for people to conflate the Alphabet company to Google since Google was the original name of the company before its reorganization.

    whembly (51f28e)

  66. it pains me that you can.

    Yeah, no kidding. Very disappointing, but I suppose it shouldn’t be surprising at this point.

    Make America Ordered Again (23f793)

  67. I am reminded of the letter from Robert Heinlein to John W Campbell, Jr, shortly after Pearl Harbor. Campbell, the editor of Astounding, where Heinlein got his start was absolutely fierce in his criticism of Roosevelt and the colossal disaster of Pearl Harbor, going so far as to accuse FDR of allowing the attack to happen to get us into the war.

    Heinlein’s letter said basically “STFU, we’re at war and this is doing no good.” Kind of how I feel today.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  68. The people who dislike Trump and have insulted and criticized 365/24/7 for the last 4 years, don’t have any “Confidence” in him. Wow, shocking!

    rcocean (9d9291)

  69. This just in. Hold the presses. Bill Kristol, David French, Nancy Pelosi, and Cuomo have all expressed doubts about Trump’s Virus Leadership. Film at 11.

    rcocean (9d9291)

  70. “I am fuc&ing sick and tired of all the little potshots some people are taking, when the house is burning down.”

    Trump: “It’s going to be very quickly done, unlike websites of the past

    :thinkingemoji:

    Davethulhu (c914aa)

  71. 53. In other words, impeachment is for big crimes or little crimes. There’s no wrong way to eat this reeses.

    I was lectured for a month that no crime at all was neccassary. Now you blythly lable “them” what ever “Them” means ‘big and little’ crimes. You are so far detached from a workable knowledge set, only you fail to see it.

    Iowan2 (bbb95d)

  72. If this thing is a success and we see a lot less misery, I expect people to be infuriated (despite how good that would be).

    Indeed. How this plays out will tell a lot. I can see people saying “We trashed the economy and only 2000 people died!? What was the big deal?” As if the alternative was not trashing the economy and only 2000 people dying. Or 3000. If this is indeed “10 times worse than the flu” and we lose twens of thousands each year to the flu DESPITE having a partially effective vaccine, then doing nothing could have been catastrophic.

    Our host has quoted some sources as high at 1.4 million dead with no action. I think that’s high, but even if it was 200 thousand, it is worth some effort to avoid, and incovenience to some does not trump death to others. In a civilization, at least.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  73. Ah, hell, Kevin, I had a very bad cough, sneezing and temperate from late January right through February into early March. I am still coughing a little– allergies, flu, cold– whatever.

    As am I, but never a fever or body aches which you always get with the flu (or this). The person who relayed this to me is my sister, whose [new] husband attended CES, then came down with the flu (he never gets sick) and a fever of 103 a few days later, then she got it, then his son got it…

    They live in Vegas, which is a perfect spot for contagion, or was until yesterday.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  74. Its common for people to conflate the Alphabet company to Google since Google was the original name of the company before its reorganization.

    And Alphabet’s stock symbol is still GOOG.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  75. According to Dustin’s lame and asinine reasoning, if the President carves “DJT was here” on the oval office desk, he can be impeached and removed from office, the election thus overturned, and that’s entirely fine.

    It’s ridiculous going on dishonest.

    “treason, bribery, and other high crimes and misdemeanors” doesn’t mean that.

    Make America Ordered Again (23f793)

  76. Trump: “It’s going to be very quickly done, unlike websites of the past”

    He can’t help himself. It really is embarrassing; cringeworthy even. Still, cynicism doesn’t help.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  77. “treason, bribery, and other high crimes and misdemeanors” doesn’t mean that.

    Please can we not go here again.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  78. Yeah, no kidding. Very disappointing, but I suppose it shouldn’t be surprising at this point.

    Make America Ordered Again (23f793) — 3/17/2020 @ 2:39 pm

    Hey everyone the Troll is disappointed! Someone accurately pointed out Trump said something that wasn’t true yet again and if you really really really really try you can pretend Trump’s inaccuracy didn’t matter and therefore those telling the truth are the Real Problem.

    Dustin (9c58b3)

  79. Dustin’s lame and asinine reasoning

    Oh it’s lame AND asinine!

    So deeply wounded that you feel this way, Troll.

    Dustin (9c58b3)

  80. Please can we not go here again.

    I had electricians over so I missed the “fun.”

    Make America Ordered Again (23f793)

  81. I was lectured for a month that no crime at all was neccassary.

    Yep. high crimes and misdemeanors.

    mis·de·mean·or
    /ˌmisdəˈmēnər/
    Learn to pronounce
    noun
    a minor wrongdoing.
    “the player can expect a lengthy suspension for his latest misdemeanor”

    Words mean things. The president can be impeached for big bad crimes or just minor wrongdoings. The burden on impeachment is political, not legal.

    Dustin (9c58b3)

  82. I had electricians over so I missed the “fun.”

    It’s still here, from January.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  83. As usual your wild accusations and total lack of understanding of simple concepts has you posting nonsense bolstered by political idiocy.

    How’s that T-rump summary execution of Lt. Col. Vindman comin’ fer ya’…???

    Ragspierre (d9bec9)

  84. And there was much rejoicing.

    Make America Ordered Again (23f793)

  85. big problems

    [T]he sudden transformation did not unfold seamlessly.

    Some employees arrived at work first thing Tuesday morning because they were not yet set up to telework. They watched as customers pulled into the parking lot, looking for help with a disability claim or with replacing a lost Social Security card. Then they watched them peer into the darkened offices and stomp away in frustration.

    “We’ve been asking for this for awhile. They did it overnight — and failed to get the word out,” said Ralph Dejuliis, a field worker in Oklahoma and national president for the union that represents the federal employees.

    Dejuliis said Social Security employees don’t know how they are going to handle a variety of tasks. What if they are not sure the person on the phone is who they claim to be? In the past, they made them come into the office to be sure.

    also, petty problems

    Milana Bubrinkova, who processes claims in a Chicago district office, said she learned Friday afternoon that her childrens’ schools were closing down.

    She asked her manager for permission to telework and didn’t receive a clear decision, she said. She grabbed her work laptop before she left that night. The agency policy allowed for telework under such circumstances, and she wanted to be ready for work Monday morning.

    That morning, she said her manager approved her to telework but reprimanded her for bringing her computer home without his permission. “I’m trying to find a way to get my work done, and I’m getting reprimanded for it? You cannot make this stuff up.”

    Social Security officials did not respond to questions about the incident.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  86. According to Dustin’s lame and asinine reasoning, if the President carves “DJT was here” on the oval office desk, he can be impeached and removed from office, the election thus overturned, and that’s entirely fine.

    It’s ridiculous going on dishonest.

    You platoon of straw men (basically lying) is certainly both asinine, lame, AND grossly dishonest.

    As we’ve learned to expect.

    Ragspierre (d9bec9)

  87. Oh yeah, Vindman, one of the many, many professionals who can help our nation anticipate and prepare for the unexpected. Why is he no longer doing that? Because he was ethical. He answered a subpoena. He wasn’t a shameless boot licker.

    And he was purged like so many other pros.

    And lo and behold now Trump’s excuse is that he didn’t expect something bad to happen.

    Leaders or aspiring leaders: do not surround yourself with boot-licking yes men if you don’t want to look like Trump does today.

    If Trump weren’t lying all the time, would MAOA and his other sockpuppets need to try so damn hard to insist all criticism of Trump is a mental illness? Would they need to twist and spin?

    Heinlein’s letter said basically “STFU, we’re at war and this is doing no good.” Kind of how I feel today.

    Kevin M (ab1c11) — 3/17/2020 @ 2:40 pm

    I respectfully submit that there are a few remaining professionals in this administration who should not be afraid to report more of Trump’s misconduct and inaction. I think that would do good. I think Trump’s conduct after his impeachment has been to chill any whistleblowing. Rand Paul doxxing the whistleblower, with the help of traitors like aceofspades has also hurt the concept of accountability and conservatism. We need to speak plainly about it, even when it would be easier to rally around our president. Trusting Trump is not a good decision now or ever.

    Dustin (9c58b3)

  88. Oh yeah, Vindman, one of the many, many professionals who can help our nation anticipate and prepare for the unexpected. Why is he no longer doing that?

    Because he was retasked to a war college to further his career so he can be of used to the United States in the future.

    Make America Ordered Again (23f793)

  89. *used

    Make America Ordered Again (23f793)

  90. Yeah, no kidding. Very disappointing, but I suppose it shouldn’t be surprising at this point.

    Other than trolling for your cult leader, wtf are you here for?

    Go start your own blog for myrmidons like yourself. We’d all be happier.

    Ragspierre (d9bec9)

  91. So “impeachment” ended as just a fever dream. Or was it a virus?

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  92. Other than trolling for your cult leader, wtf are you here for?

    I was trying to save your life earlier today.

    Make America Ordered Again (23f793)

  93. Smith’s, the local Kroger chain, announced today that it would be open from 7am to 8am MWF, solely for senior citizens to shop.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  94. I knew it was called “King Soopers” in Colorado. I didn’t know Krogers went by other names in other areas. Interesting!

    Kroger’s pretty good. I like their Vitacost online subsidiary: you can buy melatonin there, btw. Just sayin’.

    Make America Ordered Again (23f793)

  95. 93… we get 6 to 7AM on Wednesdays… Yay!!!

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  96. I was trying to save your life earlier today.

    With loopy quack medicine and conspiracy nuttery?

    gorsh, I have a lump…in my ass-pirations .

    Ragspierre (d9bec9)

  97. … with Senior Discounts… YES!!!!!!!!!!

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  98. Smith’s, the local Kroger chain, announced today that it would be open from 7am to 8am MWF, solely for senior citizens to shop.

    One of the Dollar stores did the same thing. I actually went in to one the yesterday and they still had rubbing alcohol, baby wipes, and TP.

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827)

  99. Prolly just a potato, raggedpierre.

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  100. Dollar stores did the same thing.

    There are more of them and they get shipment by a larger array of trucks. They’re often better at stocking odd items.

    Make America Ordered Again (23f793)

  101. Prolly just a potato, raggedpierre.

    Is that some kind of Irish shot?

    Ragspierre (d9bec9)

  102. DJI up 1000 points. Trump must have been quiet. Futures markets flat.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  103. DJI up 1000 points. Trump must have been quiet. Futures markets flat.

    When they realize the American strains are generally less virulent, and are becoming less virulent, it will get better.

    Make America Ordered Again (23f793)

  104. DJI up 1000 points. Trump must have been quiet.

    Right. Trump’s best bet is to say, look, I have full confidence in Mike Pence and the experts we have assembled. Listen to them.

    But I doubt his ego will allow that.

    (Reminds me of when George Bush Sr. said about James Baker and the mid-east peace efforts. If they fail, Baker failed. If they succeed, then look what a great job George Bush did in picking Baker.)

    Bored Lawyer (56c962)

  105. Capitalism. Yay!

    Overrated. (Private ownership of the means of production not overrated.)

    Make America Ordered Again (23f793)

  106. ^ I put the above comment under the wrong post.

    Make America Ordered Again (23f793)

  107. Overrated. (Private ownership of the means of production not overrated.)

    The alt-righties are BIG fans of central planning. Like their Daddy.

    Ragspierre (d9bec9)

  108. While I’ve long objected to that term and its implied philosophy of the alt right, at least in regards to that term which doesn’t make a whole lot of sense on two levels, I would like less fast-food breaded chicken and soda, obesity, endless strip malls, and drug addicts. The alternative is not bread lines.

    Make America Ordered Again (23f793)

  109. “Wang, Wang, Wang went the trolley!” — Treasury Secretary Ned Ryerson wants to send everybody $1000.

    Will that buy you a room for 2 or 3 nights at a Trump Hotel?

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  110. Because he was retasked to a war college to further his career so he can be of used to the United States in the future.

    Make America Ordered Again (23f793) — 3/17/2020 @ 3:08 pm

    This is the troll complaining about dishonesty, btw.

    Dustin (9c58b3)

  111. Kevin, Sammy Finkelman, and MAOA,

    Patterico makes the point at 47 & 48, so I won’t belabor it.

    Further, I would like to ask MAOA to resist making innaccurate accusations: “…and it is inaccurate and unintentionally defamatory.”

    Dana (4fb37f)

  112. Kevin M,

    You have transformed the argument from:

    “Dana got it 100% wrong and totally needs to correct and apologize to Trump!!!!!1!”

    to

    “OK Trump was wrong but was it an actual lie and why are you picking on him?”

    You were pretty aggressive in your demands for a correction. The aggression was on your side, not mine or Dana’s. It would be decent of you to acknowledge that she owed no correction and got nothing wrong.

    Patterico (115b1f)

  113. “lie” seems to be the sticking point. Probably because it requires intentional deception.

    How about we agree the the president has failed to provide clear and accurate information about what google is doing in his prepared public remarks on this issue?

    Can we also agree that this failure to provide clear and accurate information is a common weakness of this president? I’ll go further and say that providing clear and accurate information is a key duty of a leader in a time of crisis.

    Kevin/MAOA/Whoever, does that seem like a fair summary of this?

    Here’s what he said that’s been substantiated by Google

    Google is helping to develop a website.

    Here’s what has not be supported by google at this time.

    It’s going to be very quickly done
    unlike websites of the past, (Gives us a baseline expectation)
    to determine whether a test is warranted
    to facilitate testing at a nearby convenient location. (since he’s speaking to a national audience for this statement to be true there need to be tests available across the nation. This is not currently the case so this part is 100% wrong)
    Google has 1,700 engineers working on this right now.
    They’ve made tremendous progress.

    Here’s what he said that appears to be completely inaccurate. It’s not yet accurate today and clearly wasn’t at the time he said it.

    We have many, many locations behind us, by the way. We cover the — this country in large part….we cover very, very strongly our country. Stores in virtually every location.

    Time123 (441f53)

  114. “Trump is lying” is always the safe bet. Ten to one.

    nk (1d9030)

  115. Now for sale on Breitbart and Infowars: Melatonin/Vitamin C CoronaCure Cocktail

    Leviticus (efada1)

Leave a Reply

Comment moderation is enabled. Your comment may take some time to appear.


Powered by WordPress.

Page loaded in: 0.4099 secs.