Patterico's Pontifications

2/7/2020

“Maybe People Should Pay for That”: Witness Against Trump to Be Booted Out of White House

Filed under: General — Patterico @ 7:47 am



Let the purge begin! (Actually, it has already been in motion for a while).

Remember this fella?

I also recognize that my simple act of appearing here today, just like the courage of my colleagues who have also truthfully testified before this committee, would not be tolerated in many places around the world. In Russia, my act of expressing concern to the chain of command in an official and private channel would have severe personal and professional repercussions, and offering public testimony involving the president would surely cost me my life.

I’m grateful to my father for his brave act of hope 40 years ago and for the privilege of being an American citizen and public servant where I can live free of fear for mine and my family’s safety. Dad, I’m sitting here today in the U.S. Capitol talking to our elected professionals. Talking to our elected professionals is proof that you made the right decision 40 years ago to leave the Soviet Union and come here to the United States of America in search of a better life for our family. Do not worry. I will be fine for telling the truth.

Define “fine.” Sure, nobody has yet carried out the death threats they have made against you. But in Donald Trump’s administration, “I will be fine” doesn’t mean no retaliation:

Lt. Col. Alexander Vindman, a key witness in President Donald Trump’s impeachment inquiry, has told colleagues he expects to leave the White House’s National Security Council in the coming weeks to return to the Defense Department, a source tells CNN.

Vindman said his departure from the council could come as soon as this month, the source said. That would be well ahead of the scheduled end of his time at the White House, which was originally slated to last until July. Vindman was appointed to his post in July 2018 and was asked to stay for two years.

The source did not say whether Vindman’s departure was voluntary or at the behest of the White House, though aides inside the West Wing had speculated it could come soon as the impeachment trial was over.

Trump has continued to fume about Vindman’s presence at the National Security Council since he testified, according to people familiar with the matter. Vindman’s duties were significantly curtailed after he testified — as were his those of his brother, an attorney for the council, according to sources familiar with the situation.

So we’re not the Soviet Union, where they kill people for this stuff. We’re Soviet-lite. We just make sure they’re not around any more. Also jettisoned before their time: Jennifer Williams, a special adviser to Mike Pence.

News of Vindman’s likely departure follows another witness, Jennifer Williams, who left Vice President Mike Pence’s office two months ahead of schedule.

If you can eliminate and make an example of anyone who tried to reveal your corruption, it makes it easier to do your corruption.

Next stop: the whistleblower! Retaliation against him would be against the law, of course … but perhaps you had forgotten: Donald Trump is above the law.

297 Responses to ““Maybe People Should Pay for That”: Witness Against Trump to Be Booted Out of White House”

  1. I almost allowed no comments on this thread, because to be honest I am not particularly interested in hearing from the fucking assholes who will support this. But whatever.

    Patterico (115b1f)

  2. I wonder if the witnesses would have done this, knowing how all this would end.

    Appalled (1a17de)

  3. Patterico (115b1f)

  4. I wonder if the witnesses would have done this, knowing how all this would end.

    I wonder if the witnesses to the next impeachable act will say anything.

    This is all being done so that they won’t.

    Patterico (115b1f)

  5. Whatever you think of Vindman or Williams…or whether or not you believe Trump did a horrible thing.

    It’s obvious the Trump will NOT trust these people from this point forward.

    Trump need people there that he can Trust.

    whembly (fd57f6)

  6. I wonder if the witnesses would have done this, knowing how all this would end.

    THAT is a wonderful question, with deep and ramifying side questions.

    I doubt that the GOP cowards in the Senate gave much thought…if any…to the people they were exposing to the vindictiveness of a man known for his tendency to crush anyone who tells the facts about him if he’s allowed to.

    Ragspierre (d9bec9)

  7. #4

    I wonder if the witnesses to the next impeachable act will say anything.

    This is all being done so that they won’t.

    Agreed. And I think every member of the GOP who opposed impeachment/removal is absolutely OK with that.

    Appalled (1a17de)

  8. Trump needs to reevaluate who he appoints and/or uses as staff and from now on choose those who are America First.

    That’s where he went wrong with his administration and that’s what he needs to get back on track.

    Make America Ordered Again (23f793)

  9. T-rump cannot stand having “America First” people around him.

    He needs cultists he can trust.

    Ragspierre (d9bec9)

  10. Swearing an oath to the constitution is by definition America First. We do not swear allegiance to individual leaders.

    JRH (52aed3)

  11. “We’re Soviet-lite.”

    Because nullifying a reassignment is Soviet-lite, while nullifying an election is not.

    Sham show trials, falsified evidence, surveillance of an opposition campaign — all wholesome American traditions, like apple pie and baseball.

    Munroe (dd6b64)

  12. Swearing an oath to the constitution is by definition America First.

    In theory. Not always in practice.

    Make America Ordered Again (23f793)

  13. In theory. Not always in practice.

    As amply demonstrated by Trump.

    Ragspierre (d9bec9)

  14. 10. Well then, American presidents haven’t been abiding by that oath for over a century now. Trump is just the worst of a bad bunch. Now what?

    Gryph (08c844)

  15. While I don’t think what Trump did was impeachable, or even wrong, I could list things that I could see impeaching Trump for; however, they’re things pretty much wanted by both parties’ powerful elite, so that ain’t going to happen. If we lived in a country that would impeach a President for those things, I believe it would be a better and stronger country. Ironically.

    Make America Ordered Again (23f793)

  16. 15. Impeachment is for whatever the House decides it is for, for better or worse. That said, I thought the case the House laid out for the Senate viz-a-vis Ukraine was weak tea at best. They could have done better, but I doubt they would have had a different outcome anyway.

    Gryph (08c844)

  17. If you can eliminate and make an example of anyone who tried to reveal your corruption, it makes it easier to do your corruption.

    There are two options here.
    1. You were corrupt and so you will eliminate those who try to expose you.
    2. You were not corrupt so you eliminate those who try to undermine you with false allegations of corruption.

    Your opinion on the rightness of Trump’s response is entirely dependent on your belief in his guilt or innocence, because the only way Vindman would come out ahead is if he won the encounter.

    “When you strike at a king, you must kill him.”

    ― Ralph Waldo Emerson

    Seriously, NO leader would tolerate a saboteur in his ranks. You would be foolish to think it would come out any other way.

    Wa St Blogger (5fcf49)

  18. …I don’t think what Trump did was impeachable, or even wrong…

    Where IS that surprised face…?!?!

    Ragspierre (d9bec9)

  19. 2

    Make America Ordered Again (87dd48)

  20. from now on choose those who are America First.

    There’s a huge difference between America First and Donald Trump First, Most, Always, Unconditionally.
    The faithful don’t see that because they have so thoroughly absorbed Trump’s own Trump-centric view of the world.

    Radegunda (5ab384)

  21. Seriously, NO leader would tolerate a saboteur in his ranks. You would be foolish to think it would come out any other way.

    He wants them to sabotage Trump again.

    Make America Ordered Again (23f793)

  22. Seriously, NO leader would tolerate a saboteur in his ranks.

    Wow. What support do you have for using the term “saboteur” when speaking of witnesses like the ones in question?

    Ragspierre (d9bec9)

  23. The faithful don’t see that because they have so thoroughly absorbed Trump’s own Trump-centric view of the world.

    No, this is a ridiculous and unimaginative way of looking at things. I literally just said I wish I lived in a country that would impeach Donald Trump for some of the things he’s done (and not just him, for things the parties’ elite are pretty much united on).

    It isn’t loyalty to Trump as a person, although there are things about him I respect and even things I respect. It’s Trump as a vehicle to accomplish goals I care about, for the country and to an extent for the world.

    But all you can see is, “Oh, we love Trump!” Frankly, it’s stupid and you should knock it off.

    Make America Ordered Again (23f793)

  24. 1. I’m glad you did allow comments on this thread. It is laying bare for all to see who among us is willing to tolerate hungry for encouraging an American dictatorship.

    Gryph (08c844)

  25. *there are things about him I respect and even things I respect like

    Make America Ordered Again (23f793)

  26. 23. So which goals has Trump accomplished? Besides pissing off all the right people?

    Gryph (08c844)

  27. But all you can see is, “Oh, we love Trump!”

    If the shoe fits, right? Duck’s gonna quack, dog’s gonna bark, Trump humper’s gonna…you know.

    Gryph (08c844)

  28. NO leader would tolerate a saboteur in his ranks.

    We’re a republic in which public officials swear allegiance to the constitution, not to the president.
    Trump believes that unconditional loyalty to himself is the only important measure of a public official under his reign. And his defenders are taking essentially the same view.

    Trump told the public that he was happy to have someone in the White House who said GREAT things about him but was bad at her job and mean to other people.

    Radegunda (5ab384)

  29. Frankly, it’s stupid and you should knock it off.

    Or…we read you and see through your obvious BS.

    It’s stupid and you should knock it off.

    Ragspierre (d9bec9)

  30. No major wars (although I wish we had less minor wars too), the economy, advancing a pro-life agenda, rebuilding the military, etc. I could add a bunch, but those will suffice for now.

    There’s also stymying the insanity the modern Democratic Party would institute. He is a Republican, after all, and has more cahones than is typical.

    Make America Ordered Again (23f793)

  31. He wants them to sabotage Trump again.

    So it really is all about protecting Trump — not about doing the right thing in accordance with conscience and public responsibility.

    Radegunda (5ab384)

  32. His border control efforts have been anemic, but then he’s receiving court injunctions from random fed judges at every turn, an obvious attempt to undermine the executive branch’s legitimate authority.

    He’s at least using ICE internally in publicly visible ways, driving down border crossings if only through persuasion.

    Make America Ordered Again (23f793)

  33. 30. So in other words, his failure to repeal Obamacare and scale back government spending in any meaningful way mean nothing to you. If that’s not true, feel free to correct me and tell me why. Sounds to me like you eat up his speeches and don’t genuinely give a shit what else he actually does while he’s in office.

    Gryph (08c844)

  34. Official journalist style guide: Vindman is always Lt. Col. Vindman. Michael Flynn is just Michael Flynn.

    Munroe (dd6b64)

  35. So it really is all about protecting Trump.

    No.

    I mean if you rephrase this in a way that’s remotely intelligent or insightful, I’ll be happy to respond.

    Make America Ordered Again (23f793)

  36. But all you can see is, “Oh, we love Trump!” Frankly, it’s stupid and you should knock it off.

    You should stop calling people stupid just because they don’t share your opinion about Trump.
    And if you want to “Make America Ordered Again,” it would help to have a president who isn’t so deeply disordered in his mind.

    Radegunda (5ab384)

  37. It’s never enough for Trump to win. His opponent must be publicly humiliated.

    The problem here is that the nation will be deprived of Lt. Col. Vindman’s experience and expertise.

    John B Boddie (286277)

  38. Official journalist style guide: Vindman is always Lt. Col. Vindman. Michael Flynn is just Michael Flynn.

    To be fair, Lt. Col. Vindman is an actively serving officer, so requires his title. You could go either way with, say, James Mattis. He served in a civilian capacity as Sec Def after his military service and Lt. Gen. Flynn was likewise appointed at Nat Sec Adv.

    However, while you could respectfully refer to him as “Michael Flynn,” I’m sure they, in reality, mean it as a slight.

    Make America Ordered Again (23f793)

  39. It’s never enough for Trump to win. His opponent must be publicly humiliated.

    It depends.

    Make America Ordered Again (23f793)

  40. So we’re not the Soviet Union, where they kill people for this stuff.

    hrushchev changed that (for purges, not people who told secrets though) and personally enefitted from it. In forced retirement, he regretted not allowing people to travel abroad..

    Linda Tripp was kept on the government payroll all through the Clinton Administration, and fired as soon George W. Bush came in (the calculation for Clinton was that she wouldn’t be tempted to tell more – things she hadn’t told. But might tell it in a book)

    Next stop: the whistleblower

    Thw whistleblower was already suspected of leaking and exiled from the White House in 2017.

    Sammy Finkelman (8e96a4)

  41. By the way, ex-Ambassador Marie Yovanovich quietly retired, or put in for retirement, before the trial. Mike Pompeo had given her a job teaching.

    Sammy Finkelman (8e96a4)

  42. “I bet Trump will try to buy Siberia from Putin so he can send Vindman there.”

    So glad we’re stopping short of making strained Stalin analogies.

    Munroe (dd6b64)

  43. Vindman was appointed to his post in July 2018 and was asked to stay for two years.

    That’s fascinating. WHO asked him to stay? As for Col Vindman, his testimony indicated that he thought his judgement superior to the President on the Ukraine and Foreign policy. He would be wasted at NSC, he needs a bigger arena for his large ego.

    rcocean (1a839e)

  44. Isn’t Vindman the one who contacted the whistle blower? If so, I’m shocked he wasn’t canned earlier. Of course, he’s not being FIRED from anything, he’s just returning to his position at DoD. Trump’s real problem is his failure to ensure only LOYAL people work for him at the NSC. He doesn’t need Never-trumpers who will race off to the Democrats and blab confidential information. No NSC can work like that.

    rcocean (1a839e)

  45. One of the weirdest things about the whole episode is the number of foreigners involved at the NSC and in the State Department. I’d feel a little more comfortable having some old-timey Americans in there, as opposed to people who might have dual loyalties. I don’t think its a good idea having Russian-Americans and Ukrainian-Americans deeply involved in USA foreign policy regarding the Ukraine and Russia. It COULD be OK, but as a generalization, they should be posted to some other area of the globe.

    rcocean (1a839e)

  46. “I bet Trump will try to buy Siberia from Putin so he can send Vindman there.”

    That’s a good joke, but there will be no retaliation. Vindman was just a pawn.

    rcocean (1a839e)

  47. It’s never enough for Trump to win. His opponent must be publicly humiliated.

    You mean like put in stocks on the National Mall where people can throw rotten vegetables at them or tarred and feathered or…something else? Because that would be wrong.

    PTw (0432c6)

  48. …his testimony indicated that he thought his judgement superior to the President on the Ukraine and Foreign policy.

    Support that, please.

    I expect his knowledge is superior to Duh Donald’s. That would why he was in the post.

    If he was wise enough to not try strong-arming a foreign nation for his own benefit, I’d say we have a prima facia case that his judgment IS superior to Duh Donald’s.

    Ragspierre (d9bec9)

  49. I’m not happy with a person born and raised in a Communist country sleeping with the President of the United States. Vindman, at least, has been here since age three and was raised American.

    nk (1d9030)

  50. So you’d rather Vindman be sleeping with the President? I’m confused.

    PTw (0432c6)

  51. One of the weirdest things about the whole episode is the number of foreigners involved at the NSC and in the State Department.

    What? Too many vowels in their names to suit you…???

    Cripes

    Ragspierre (d9bec9)

  52. We’re Soviet-lite.

    In Russia is freedom of speech.
    In America is also freedom after speech.
    – Yakov Smirnoff

    Dave (1bb933)

  53. Planted moles and leakers are the only way #NeverTrump will see the inside of the White House — since the normal way, winning elections, is beyond their ken.

    Munroe (861db5)

  54. Only an idiot retains staff who are actively working against him.
    Anyone who proposes otherwise is blinded to rational argument.

    David Longfellow (44fae2)

  55. This is trolling, fyi.

    Ragspierre (d9bec9)

  56. Donald Trump is above the law.

    I say it’s time to repeal Article II…who’s with me?

    Dave (1bb933)

  57. I’m not happy with a person born and raised in a Communist country sleeping with the President of the United States. Vindman, at least, has been here since age three and was raised American.

    nk (1d9030) — 2/7/2020 @ 9:23 am

    You give him far too much credit; I thought the marriage was at the viewing room stage already.

    So you’d rather Vindman be sleeping with the President? I’m confused.

    PTw (0432c6) — 2/7/2020 @ 9:25 am

    Cough! ROY Cough! CONE Cough! LINDSAY Cough! GRAHAM Cough! (Really anybody from South Carolina – why do think he was all up on Tim Scott? And Trey Gowdy, with that hairdo?)

    urbanleftbehind (5eecdb)

  58. Too many vowels in their names to suit you…???

    It’s a pileup of consonants that always spells trouble.

    Radegunda (5ab384)

  59. 44. rcocean (1a839e) — 2/7/2020 @ 9:16 am

    One of the weirdest things about the whole episode is the number of foreigners involved at the NSC and in the State Department.

    Who else knows the various foreign languages, and is interested?

    The interestig thing is Alexander Vindman was offered the job as Minister of Defense in Ukraine. To take the job he would have had to give up his american citizenship, or get permission.

    It is possible that it was Vindman who first alerted Ukraine to the hold, and that it was supposed to be kept secret (an order that probably origiated with Mick Mulvaney and not with Trump) – and therefore they did not mention it and Gordon Sondland and Kurt Volker and Bill Taylor did not know that they knew about the hold untl after the Politico article of August 28. Members of Congress also knew. And everyone knew that no reason for the hold had been passed on by OMB. (A general hold was ot legal, if kept secret, so OMB created a whole series of short holds using various reasons)

    Sammy Finkelman (8e96a4)

  60. Trump, his very own self, with all his Eastern European associations, from his Communist bloc wives to his Russian creditors and numerous others in-between, would never have gotten a security clearance. Never. Not in 1978, not in 2006, not in 2016. In fact, he’d be a prime candidate for a FISA warrant, Hey, wait ….

    nk (1d9030)

  61. Trump need people there that he can Trust.

    whembly (fd57f6) — 2/7/2020 @ 7:59 am

    Trump only trusts people loyal to him. What if his actions are disloyal to America?

    DRJ (15874d)

  62. 22 Ragspierre (d9bec9) — 2/7/2020 @ 8:40 am

    Wow. What support do you have for using the term “saboteur” when speaking of witnesses like the ones in question?

    Whether you are innocent or guilty, having someone attempt to have you removed from office pretty much defines the person as a saboteur. This is not an indictment of the person, his motives or the purity of his actions. It is simply a clear and logical conclusion that a person who is working against his leader is sabotaging the leader.

    Seriously, I contend that Trump has managed to achieve one clearly negative affect in America. He has made people unable to think rationally or understand logic. This board is a clear example.

    Wa St Blogger (5fcf49)

  63. I say it’s time to repeal Article II…who’s with me?

    Me, me, me! I like the Swiss system. Department heads appointed by the legislature who rotate the Presidency among themselves, basically someone to gavel them to order while retaining jurisdiction over (and only over) his own department. Most Swiss don’t know who their President is at any given time.

    nk (1d9030)

  64. having someone attempt to have you removed from office pretty much defines the person as a saboteur

    and

    He has made people unable to think rationally or understand logic. This board is a clear example.

    Thanks for doing your part.

    :)

    Dave (1bb933)

  65. @48

    …his testimony indicated that he thought his judgement superior to the President on the Ukraine and Foreign policy.

    Support that, please.

    Ragspierre (d9bec9) — 2/7/2020 @ 9:19 am

    Vindman literally testified that part of the reason he was upset was because Trump deviated from inter-agency positions.

    whembly (51f28e)

  66. I don’t think Trump as or had Russian creditors. (the allegation in the Steele dossier was, I think, that Deutsche Bank, had Russia, in effect, as a informal co-signer or guarantor of his loans)

    Donald Trump did sell some apatments to Russian oligarchs, but after 2014, Putin had told those close to him not to keep money in the United states or other countries that might put sanctions on them.

    Sammy Finkelman (8e96a4)

  67. Or that they made the loans to Trump as part of doing business with Russia.

    Sammy Finkelman (8e96a4)

  68. Charles M. Blow: They acquitted Trump. Make them pay.

    https://www.sltrib.com/opinion/commentary/2020/02/06/charles-m-blow-they/
    _

    harkin (d6cfee)

  69. My GOD! This is so unusual. NO President has ever done anything like THIS before! Next thing you know the “your next post will be Antarctica” will become a cliche!

    Kevin M (8ae2cb)

  70. 64 Dave (1bb933) — 2/7/2020 @ 9:49 am

    Thanks for doing your part.

    Care to make your case?

    Wa St Blogger (5fcf49)

  71. I bet some Senators are booted out of a job over this trial, too. Some would call that “retribution”, too.

    Kevin M (8ae2cb)

  72. Only an idiot retains staff who are actively working against him.
    Anyone who proposes otherwise is blinded to rational argument.

    David Longfellow

    Without a word of a lie.

    Make America Ordered Again (23f793)

  73. 61

    Trump need people there that he can Trust.

    whembly (fd57f6) — 2/7/2020 @ 7:59 am

    Trump only trusts people loyal to him. What if his actions are disloyal to America?

    DRJ (15874d) — 2/7/2020 @ 9:43 am

    DRJ, if you’re going to “what if” please be a bit more specific.

    Just about every president has acted in a manner that could be construed as politically disloyal to America. That’s raw politics.

    Fundamentally, the executive agencies exist to enact the President’s agendas, as their power is delegated from the Office of the Presidency. And if there are folks whom the POTUS cannot trust those to support his agendas, then it’s prudent to assign them elsewhere.

    This isn’t surprising nor outrageous.

    whembly (51f28e)

  74. Working the the WH, even this one, is based on trust. Pretty sure that’s true for any organization. If you lose that trust you can’t work there any more. Even if he was able to keep his job, through some kind of whistleblower law, he’d get a “window seat” where he had to show up and sit and do nothing.

    Kevin M (8ae2cb)

  75. Was just watching some video from election night 2016, where lots of hand-wringing about ‘people of color’ and women being ‘left behind’, or even in danger because of Trump and his racist hoards coming to power.

    How ironic would it be if all these attempts to nullify an election (Mueller, impeachment etc.) added to the positive numbers on Black/Latino job numbers made the difference and put Trump over in Nov.?

    harkin (d6cfee)

  76. This is not an indictment of the person, his motives or the purity of his actions. It is simply a clear and logical conclusion that a person who is working against his leader is sabotaging the leader.

    What a monumental crock. You don’t comprehend logic or even language. Damn.

    Ragspierre (d9bec9)

  77. He has made people unable to think rationally or understand logic

    That’s what happens to people when they try to maintain a “Trump is always right” view of things.

    Radegunda (5ab384)

  78. That’s what happens to people when they try to maintain a “Trump is always right” view of things.

    You’re just dishonest. Who the hell says that?

    Make America Ordered Again (23f793)

  79. I don’t need to be more specific. My point is that people are supposed to think for themselves and blow the whistle when they see something troubling. Isn’t that what we want civil servants and military officers to do? We have people that screen whistleblower complaints to avoid frivolous claims from becoming public. That should be enough.

    DRJ (15874d)

  80. Care to make your case?

    You’ve twisted the meaning of ‘saboteur’ beyond recognition.

    Dave (1bb933)

  81. Anyone who thinks Trump’s Ukraine call was perfect thinks Trump is always right.

    DRJ (15874d)

  82. Trump only trusts people loyal to him. What if his actions are disloyal to America?

    Yeah, I know, he’s a double-sekrit Putin spy and everything he does is based on that, or untrammeled greed. But suppose those assertions are just propaganda from the Outs. What if what was disloyal to America (or at least that portion of America that voted for Trump in desperation) was what Obama, Clinton and the Bushes had been doing all along?

    A President cannot have political enemies dogging his every move, waiting to pounce. He has to be able to rely on his staff furthering his policies (and there have been numerous cases where that has not happened, up to and including Cabinet officers).

    Trump’s whole presidency has been marked by a full-court press against him doing the things that his voters desperately wanted — particularly their desire to uproot the Clinton-Bush establishment that did not serve their interests. The next election will determine whether they want to give Trump a vote of confidence and more power, or they want to go another direction.

    Kevin M (8ae2cb)

  83. What a monumental crock. You don’t comprehend logic or even language. Damn.

    Said Notatroll. Ever notice that there’s never a prudish, moralizing language monitoring busybody around when you need one?

    PTw (894877)

  84. The next election will determine whether they want to give Trump a vote of confidence and more power, or they want to go another direction.

    Now THERE is a chilling, awful thought; MORE power to T-rump.

    Ragspierre (d9bec9)

  85. Now THERE is a chilling, awful thought; MORE power to T-rump.

    That’s what happens when you win elections. Funny how that works. Sorry it upsets you so.

    Make America Ordered Again (23f793)

  86. PTw (894877)

    1. look up “troll”

    2. happy to provide you some enlightenment

    Ragspierre (d9bec9)

  87. That’s what happens to people when they try to maintain a “Trump is always right” view of things.

    You’re being dishonest. Who the hell says that?

    Where’s the dishonesty? I wasn’t quoting anyone. I’m describing a general pattern of positional shifts and rhetorical contortions that have long been on display among people who are firmly committed to the proposition that Trump’s critics are always wrong, and that anything he does can and should be defended.

    If you’re going to call other people irrational and illogical, don’t get so huffy if there’s blowback.
    And frankly I’m amazed that anyone who keeps defending Donald Trump has the nerve to fling accusations of dishonesty at others. Anyone who regularly defends Trump is obviously not much troubled by dishonesty per se.

    Radegunda (5ab384)

  88. So he should have people who never think for themselves, Kevin?

    DRJ (15874d)

  89. Yeah, I was using your definition. My bad.

    PTw (894877)

  90. Do you think it’s possible, Radegunda, that people actually disagree with others in a bona fide way, and that isn’t an act to get your goat?

    Make America Ordered Again (23f793)

  91. That’s what happens when you win elections. Funny how that works. Sorry it upsets you so.

    Ummm…no, buckwheat.

    Winning a second term would NEVER afford any POTUS more power than the Constitution extends to any POTUS.

    Your slavering cultishness does upset me. I find it disturbing in anyone pretending to be an American.

    Ragspierre (d9bec9)

  92. A President cannot have political enemies dogging his every move, waiting to pounce. He has to be able to rely on his staff furthering his policies

    It’s strange how even some people who were handpicked by Trump, as well as career officials who have worked under presidents of both parties, suddenly become enemies just waiting to pounce, or Deep State traitors, if they notice that the president is behaving inappropriately or erratically.

    Radegunda (5ab384)

  93. Apparently Vindmann’s only sin is he spoke up about the Ukraine call, a call that a whistleblower and the whistleblower oversight found troubling. So did many Trump-supporting Senators. It sounds like you and Trump want no oversight when it comes to GOP Presidents, Kevin. I am sure you believe that is how it works for Democratic Presidents. Maybe it does but is it good for America to decide each election means there is no oversight after that?

    DRJ (15874d)

  94. So he should have people who never think for themselves, Kevin?

    Yes, because as a leader trying to accomplish an already established goal, there’s nothing like someone bringing in their brave, think-for-themselves ideas. Not that such a thing even applies here but to say that SOME degree of loyalty to the objective, and the leader sets the objective, is some sort of goose-stepping is the sort of logic one often hears from lefties in the workplace. They are soon sidelined or replaced. Sometimes that’s for the bad, but eithr way an objective cannot be accomplished if team members are not on board. If you are working for someone who is so terribly opposed to what you think is right, the proper thing is to go work for someone else. To stick around so that you can undermine the leader’s authority, and see leaders have authority because for whatever reason, they were made leaders….hence authority, is…wrong.

    See, this is what I was getting at a couple weeks ago when I inquired as to anyone here having any sort of even minor executive experience. But that got dragged into a den of straw men and I got tired of it. This use of absolute language is silly and doesn’t further reasonable discussion. But I suppose that’s just me being a prudish, moralizing language monitoring busybody. So never mind.

    PTw (894877)

  95. Your slavering cultishness does upset me. I find it disturbing in anyone pretending to be an American.

    Ah. So being an American is dependent on someone agreeing with you and, whatever they do, not supporting and often agreeing with the elected and soon-to-be-reelected President.

    I don’t know what to say to that, tbh.

    If anything, you’re the backwater cult on the right. I’m pretty sure I’m closer to the mainstream of the right, actually, by definition, if you look at Donald Trump’s approval rating among Republicans.

    You can say, “I’m right and you’re wrong,” and that may be. But you’re like an FLDS saying Catholics are in a cult.

    O.K.

    Make America Ordered Again (23f793)

  96. On today’s thread, I have been personally accused of being dishonest and stupid. Which is interesting, because Trump defenders like to complain that Trump critics insult their intelligence and integrity — as though they themselves would never be so mean to people they disagree with.

    Radegunda (5ab384)

  97. WOW. You spun off more fallacies and general BS than a haunted cotton-candy machine in a Steven King novel could throw spun sugar!

    Ragspierre (d9bec9)

  98. Well, it’s one or the other, with all due respect.

    The hypothesis that people support Donald Trump out of deep love and for no other reason like, I dunno, agreeing with him and supporting the majority of his goals and thinking the impeachment case against him was laughable doesn’t occur to you as possibilities.

    Why not, out of curiosity?

    Make America Ordered Again (23f793)

  99. WOW. You spun off more fallacies and general BS than a haunted cotton-candy machine in a Steven King novel could throw spun sugar!

    Cute rhetoric. In any case, if I’m in a “cult,” it happens to be, by far, the majority of the right, whereas you would be a minority of the right.

    Did my logic fail somewhere above? Explain where if so.

    I suppose you can call any movement, no matter how popular, that you disagree with a cult if you want, but it’s not much of an argument. It almost comes across as—gee—trolling.

    Make America Ordered Again (23f793)

  100. a leader trying to accomplish an already established goal, there’s nothing like someone bringing in their brave, think-for-themselves ideas.

    The “established goal” with respect to Ukraine was what the career officials were trying to carry out, and it involved funding voted by Congress. Meanwhile, Trump had Rudy doing a shadow foreign policy that either was or wasn’t foreign policy depending on when you ask him.
    Trump had the actual foreign policy staff confused about what was going on. They weren’t all just a bunch of rogues trying to impose their own ideas.

    Radegunda (5ab384)

  101. On today’s thread, I have been personally accused of being dishonest and stupid.

    That’s part of what paid trolls do, Radegunda. To discourage anti-Trump comments. Another thing they do is jam the thread with their own yammering, multiple nonsense comments that you need to scroll past to find a good one. See if you can install the blocking script on the sidebar. That’s what I’m doing.

    nk (1d9030)

  102. The “established goal” with respect to Ukraine was what the career officials were trying to carry out

    Which is precisely the problem. Funny how answers can stare you right in the face but you cannot see them. People in cults tend to have that problem. The President, with the power vested in him by the people of the United States, is the leader with the authority to establish the goal. If they were not acting on the orders of POTUS, they were by definition “going rogue”. Now one might make the argument that through poor administration or poor understanding on their own part, they did not understand what the goal was. Judging from how all this has been reported (because none of us can really know what exactly goes on in these situations) the foreign policy staff, and pretty much the majority of the State Department, has not just misunderstood the President, but is working in active opposition to implementing the policies that he has set. Policies that the people who elected him overwhelmingly support.

    PTw (894877)

  103. And “by majority of the right” I mean, pre-acquittal, Gallup has Trump at 94% approval among Republicans.

    You could still be right about certain specific things. But for you and Patterico, etc., to attack the sincerity of the vast, vast majority of Republicans’ beliefs seems extremely unlikely to be right. You’re doing a lot of mind reading and getting it wrong.

    We don’t agree with you about the now-dead impeachment case and other things. You’re not being trolled. And people aren’t doing this out of mezmerized love for Trump.

    Make America Ordered Again (23f793)

  104. I’ll fisk a bit…

    …if I’m in a “cult,” it happens to be, by far, the majority of the right, whereas you would be a minority of the right.

    This is the fallacy of an appeal to popular opinion.

    Did my logic fail somewhere above?

    Yes.

    I suppose you can call any movement, no matter how popular, that you disagree with a cult if you want

    I could call it a bird, if I want, but both birds and cults are what they are by virtue of their being. I think you’ll find that in Marcus Aurleaous. Then you go into the appeal to popular opinion again.

    It almost comes across as—gee—trolling.

    You don’t understand the meaning of the term.

    Ragspierre (d9bec9)

  105. I suppose you can call any movement, no matter how popular, that you disagree with a cult if you want, but it’s not much of an argument.

    I don’t describe “any movement” I disagree with as a cult. Nor do I say that every Trump voter is a cultist. But from the beginning there was something strangely, intensely personal about the commitment to Trump. There was a bizarre notion that he was the only one who could “save America,” and therefore anyone who didn’t support him had to be an enemy of America. I heard people say things like “There’s nothing he could do that would make me stop supporting him.”

    The emotional fervency of the attachment to Trump was strikingly similar to what was attached to Obama, including the iconography. I remember when conservatives generally sneered at the “personality cult” of Obama — and then I noticed many of the same people turning a reverential gaze upon Trump. And I noticed how easily many people could change their own stated positions and principles in order to accommodate Trump, and trash the people who never changed their positions.

    Not every Trump defender is a cultist. But a good many certainly behave that way.

    Radegunda (5ab384)

  106. 80. Dave (1bb933) — 2/7/2020 @ 10:08 am

    You’ve twisted the meaning of ‘saboteur’ beyond recognition.

    1. your claim was that I was using faulty logic, but your example is challenging my use of language.

    Thanks for making my case for me.

    2. sab·o·teur (săb′ə-tûr′)
    n.
    One who commits sabotage.

    sabotage (ˈsæbəˌtɑːʒ)
    n
    1. the deliberate destruction, disruption, or damage of equipment, a public service, etc, as by enemy agents, dissatisfied employees, etc
    2. any similar action or behaviour
    vb
    (tr) to destroy, damage, or disrupt, esp by secret means

    Tell me what Lt. Col Vindman did that is different than the definitions listed?

    A dissatisfied employee. Check
    Deliberate disruption. Check
    Secret means. Check

    I twisted nothing. Saboteur is descriptive of the action of an individual.

    Wa St Blogger (5fcf49)

  107. I suppose you can call any movement, no matter how popular, that you disagree with a cult if you want, but it’s not much of an argument.

    A “movement” that’s centered on unwavering belief in the superior powers of one person is pretty much a cult by definition. All the horror over the prospect of Mike Pence becoming president is one among many pieces of evidence that it really is about Trump personally.

    If there’s some set of core principles that continues on with candidates not named Trump, and all the Trump devotees are every bit as enthusiastic, then we can say it was not a cult.

    Radegunda (5ab384)

  108. 83 Ragspierre (d9bec9) — 2/7/2020 @ 10:05 am

    What a monumental crock. You don’t comprehend logic or even language. Damn.

    Right now I have simply your assertion. That is neither an argument nor a fact. State explicitly where I failed to comprehend logic. Show your work.

    Wa St Blogger (5fcf49)

  109. I have been a daily consumer of ur column for many years, but, when u begin the day by calling me an ‘asshole’ if I do not agree w u…well, what can I say. If u have no respect for my respectful opinion, if u r going to pull a Hillary by lumping me w the ‘deplorables’ right off the bat, then, rather than get into an argument w u I will just let u know that I will drop u from my daily visit and say that I wish u well.

    It would not b truthful to say that ur attitude was not a surprise and that it was something I did not see coming. So many comments have been made that I did not read all of them, but, I was able to see that I was not the only one who showed the same surprise and disappointment in the opening words of today’s column.

    As far as the President, he needs folks that he can trust, and he does not need anyone using 2nd or 3rd hand hearsay to pass on as the TRUTH. This man is in the military and he is obligated to follow the Chain of Command. That he did not tells u where his sentiments were concerning the President.

    Ramon Baez MD
    Capt. USN Ret.

    Amon-Ra (c5edc9)

  110. A “movement” that’s centered on unwavering belief in the superior powers of one person is pretty much a cult by definition.

    It’s tongue in cheek. It’s schtick. Everyone knows he exagerrates. Even those playing along with it are mostly going along with the gag.

    Make America Ordered Again (23f793)

  111. Now that I think about it, that’s probably what bothers you folks so much. You’re taking it too seriously, without realizing that he and his supporters mainly aren’t taking it that seriously.

    We agree with him about the generalities and even that he’s a quite capable fellow, but no one’s as capable as he says he is.

    Were you thinking we’re taking that seriously?

    Make America Ordered Again (23f793)

  112. Do you think it’s possible, Radegunda, that people actually disagree with others in a bona fide way, and that isn’t an act to get your goat?

    I’ve never said or implied that I see anything as “an act to get [my] goat.” My goat is not that easily gotten.
    I’ve never said that people can’t have bona fide reasons to disagree with me. I really don’t have a Trumpian sense of infallibility about my own judgment. But a lot of Trump defenders appear to believe there are no honest, honorable reasons to oppose or criticize Trump, or even speak candidly in a way that doesn’t boost him. So people like Col. Vindaman and Bolton must be slimed.

    I call things as I see them — and that seems to be getting some goats in here.

    Radegunda (5ab384)

  113. Thanks for your medical and naval service, Captain Baez.

    Make America Ordered Again (23f793)

  114. I’ve never said or implied that I see anything as “an act to get [my] goat.” My goat is not that easily gotten.

    Fair enough.

    Ragspierre, on the other hand, has decked his goat in balls of holly so it’s all the easier to see.

    Make America Ordered Again (23f793)

  115. It’s tongue in cheek. It’s schtick. Everyone knows he exagerrates. Even those playing along with it are mostly going along with the gag.

    Oh, so the presidency of the United States is now a big gag — something to entertain us. But anyone who says we need and deserve better is an enemy of the people.

    And why can’t Trump defenders admit that he doesn’t merely “exaggerate” in a harmless, quasi-amusing way — he outright lies, with great frequency.

    Radegunda (5ab384)

  116. Oh, so the presidency of the United States is now a big gag.

    No, man. It’s like when I use cocky comedy with a lady. It’s serious stuff. I’m serious. But most people pick up that it’s a gag and run with it. Then it becomes fun for everybody who isn’t a stick in the mud and/or opposed to my agenda (and if the lady’s opposed to my agenda, it will definitely not work, and that’s fine: it works often enough).

    Trump speaks hyperbolically, but is generally correct in what he’s saying (not specifically correct: not precisely correct like a lawyer likes; towards the right direction and in the ballpark) and confident to an exagerrated degree. When he’s speaking about himself or an accomplishment or another person, even, as the best or the greatest or whatnot, understand it’s an exagerration that’s meant to be understood as such by the listener.

    Make America Ordered Again (23f793)

  117. He literally went on Vince McMahon’s WWE, for crying out loud. And on SNL.

    Trump gets the humor with his exagerrated greatness, but it serves four purposes:

    1. Branding. Done! Effective as heck. You can’t say it isn’t. He’s got a brand that is not common.

    2. An affirmation for himself. He literally studied Power of Postive Thinking in a serious way and went to the author’s church.

    3. Humor. Those who get it, appreciate it.

    4. It creates an expectation, even if you try to resist it, to want big things from him (and perhaps be disappointed, as I have been, when you don’t get them all, but it gives him the chance to get closer to the position/situation he wants). Even if he lives up to 60% of those, that’s double what an average person will do or ten times more, if only because of the persuasive advantages he creates for himself in various ways (ncluding this one). Scott Adams can walk through some of those.

    Make America Ordered Again (23f793)

  118. 3.I bet Trump will try to buy Siberia from Putin so he can send Vindman there.

    Coals to Newcastle?! 😉

    ‘Alexander Semyon Vindman (né Aleksandr Semyonovich Vindman) and his identical twin brother, Yevgeny, were born to a Jewish family in the Ukrainian Soviet Socialist Republic, Soviet Union.’ source,- wikibio

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  119. Trump need[s] people there that he can Trust.

    No, We the People need people there that *we* can trust. Almost by definition, if he can trust them, we can’t.

    Patterico (1d6a02)

  120. A President cannot have political enemies dogging his every move, waiting to pounce. He has to be able to rely on his staff furthering his policies

    That is not how the Constitution of the United States was constructed. There’s a reason why all the people of the executive branch are sworn to uphold the Constitution, if, in their view, the President’s actions conflict with their sworn duty, it is not up to the President to allow them to do their duty. That’s not what duty means, and not how the Nation was constructed.

    There is a continual misconstrual on this thread and in general, whether by mistake or willingly, to conflate “politics” with constitutional governance. That’s not an R v D problem, the current Trump version of the R policy has been doing that as policy, and that is just gotten seriously worse. Anything people were complaining that Obama did, Trump and this WH has loudly stated “hold my beer”.

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (5cde89)

  121. The “established goal” with respect to Ukraine was what the career officials were trying to carry out

    Which is precisely the problem. Funny how answers can stare you right in the face but you cannot see them. People in cults tend to have that problem. The President, with the power vested in him by the people of the United States, is the leader with the authority to establish the goal. If they were not acting on the orders of POTUS, they were by definition “going rogue”. Now one might make the argument that through poor administration or poor understanding on their own part, they did not understand what the goal was. Judging from how all this has been reported (because none of us can really know what exactly goes on in these situations) the foreign policy staff, and pretty much the majority of the State Department, has not just misunderstood the President, but is working in active opposition to implementing the policies that he has set. Policies that the people who elected him overwhelmingly support.

    PTw, this is just stupid. Trump never laid out a ‘new’ Ukraine policy. He sent his personal lawyer to run a off the book smear campaign and than used aid authorized by congress to they and pressure Ukraine to comply.

    Time123 (f5cf77)

  122. A List of Notable Presidential Firings Since 1951

    ‘Most were terminated outright; others left before the White House officially acted…’

    https://www.rollcall.com/news/politics/notable-presidential-firings-since-1951/

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  123. One of the weirdest things about the whole episode is the number of foreigners involved at the NSC and in the State Department. I’d feel a little more comfortable having some old-timey Americans in there, as opposed to people who might have dual loyalties. I don’t think its a good idea having Russian-Americans and Ukrainian-Americans deeply involved in USA foreign policy regarding the Ukraine and Russia. It COULD be OK, but as a generalization, they should be posted to some other area of the globe.

    rcocean (1a839e) — 2/7/2020 @ 9:16 am

    So you don’t like Jews either? Not surprising.

    Hey, about Vindaman’s patriotism relative to yours, how many purple hearts do you have? and did you ever serve in the military?

    Time123 (f5cf77)

  124. Only an idiot retains staff who are actively working against him.
    Anyone who proposes otherwise is blinded to rational argument.

    Only an idiot criminal uses confederates who are actively snitching on him.

    So it comes down to whether you view Trump as a guy trying to do what’s right being undermined by scoundrels, or whether you see him as a bad actor who wants to control any onlookers and prevent them from diming him out.

    I see him as the latter. I guess you see him as the former. And anyone who disagrees with you is perforce irrational. Next you will call me “deranged” (as in suffering from TDS). Why should I want to speak with you further?

    Patterico (1d6a02)

  125. “Scott Adams can walk through some of those.”

    lol

    Davethulhu (fab944)

  126. 119 Patterico (1d6a02) — 2/7/2020 @ 12:00 pm

    No, We the People need people there that *we* can trust. Almost by definition, if he can trust them, we can’t.

    I am not trying to by snippy, but it is almost like we would need a 4th branch of government that would absolutely have to be incorruptable to insure the honesty of the executive. Heaven knows that Trump is not the only untrustworthy person to be in or run for the office. I am sure Hillary would have been very corrupt as well. The only thing different is that I think she would have not stepped on the toes of the carrerists in state and thus would not have been subject to whistleblowing. I also think she would have had a much higher loyalty threashold than Trump.

    My contention is that we are still better with Trump and his lack of ethics than a Dem and their lack of ethics simply because we would KNOW about Trump’s. The deep state and the media would do their darndest to make sure of that, limiting any real damage. It ain’t the roaches we see that are the concern, it is the ones we don’t see. So, vote Pub all the time just for the fact that we create in that process a stronger unofficial 4th branch.

    No, I am not excusing Trump or anything like that. I am using a harsh rationale to suggest that all things considered, we will keep corruption more in line if the President has a hostile press. A Dem won’t get that. Just remember, Obama is not considered very corrupt, but he did a number of things that, in my book, are worse than Trump and would have gotten away with it completely if not for Trump.

    I would prefer NO cockroaches, but I am pessimistic about the fact that government is so powerful that it attracts cockroaches almost exclusively, so I want the lights on as often as possible so we can at least see them better.

    Wa St Blogger (5fcf49)

  127. Just a side note. My working philosophy is “vote minority party”. I don’t mean non-viable party but if you are in a heavy red state, vote D, in a blue, vote R. The best way to prevent corruption is to maintain a strong balance. It would be better if the media were equal opportunity goads, but they are not, so I lean more R just because the media already adds greater accountability, at least on the national front. Regional media may differ. Of course, I live on the left coast and thus I have the luxury of my opinion being that I am libertarian by inclination so I can vote R all day long to counter the overwhelming D influence. If I lived in a deep red state I might then be justifying voting R because it is the right philosophy. There is no gun to my head, so I can maintain philosophical purity for the moment.

    Wa St Blogger (5fcf49)

  128. @122. Postscript. Review the list. A president is entitled to maintain as loyal staff as he or she can keep on the reservation. Nixon knew Kissinger was a big leaker but had him taped/wiretapped and kept him aboard for policy continuity. Truman fired MacArthur which wasn’t all that popular at the time; JFK dumped Dulles; LBJ bounced McNamara; The Big Dick jettisoned Dean etc., etc., Even Ford, Carter, Reagan, Bush 1 & 2, Bubba moved people out… Everyone is expendable; whether you agree w/Trump or not, moving Vindman out of the WH under current circumstances would be wise from a Trumpian POV. It’s not like he’s the only “expert” around.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  129. Obama is not considered very corrupt, but he did a number of things that, in my book, are worse than Trump and would have gotten away with it completely if not for Trump.

    Another gobsmacking statement of untruth. Some us spent the entire Obama regime shouting from the rooftops about every act of corruption committed.

    Duh Donald…when he wasn’t being supportive of Obama…was a leading Birther.

    Ragspierre (d9bec9)

  130. 102. PTw (894877) — 2/7/2020 @ 10:49 am

    If they were not acting on the orders of POTUS, they were by definition “going rogue”.

    Well, that was everybody, including or especially, Mulvaney and Sondland. Because all that Trump had ordered, (upon discovering, thanks to the Washinton Examiner of June 18, 2019, or a media story derivative of it that some aid was scheduled to be sent to Ukraine) was that no more money be given to Ukraine.

    Mulvaney probably had no orders to keep it secret though or not inform Congress.

    So I suppose they just should have just let Congress become unhinged. I suppose also they cared a little bit and thought cutting off aid bad policy, and a reversal of what policy had been before.

    It was virtually unanimous in Congress.

    Now one might make the argument that through poor administration or poor understanding on their own part, they did not understand what the goal was.

    It was people at the highest level who didn’t understand why Trump was doing it, or thought him clearly wrong. They wanted to persuade him that Ukraine was nor crrupt, especially with Zelensky in charge.

    Sammy Finkelman (8e96a4)

  131. Breaking News- Vindman has been fired; formally escorted out of WH.

    FWIW, per news reports, it was a temporary gig t begin with anyway w/discretionary extensions.

    But he’s gone.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  132. 129 Ragspierre (d9bec9) — 2/7/2020 @ 12:48 pm

    Another gobsmacking statement of untruth. Some us spent the entire Obama regime shouting from the rooftops about every act of corruption committed.

    Don’t take it personally. I didn’t say YOU. But if you took a poll, Obama would be considered not very corrupt. Thus my statement “not considered very corrupt.” My point is that if her were a Republican he would be Tricky Dick part II. And a Russian asset, and Hitler, and Fascist, and all the other pejoratives. My point was to say, if you want to limit corruption watch them like a hawk. If you want them watched like a hawk, elect a Republican.

    Wa St Blogger (5fcf49)

  133. Wa St Blogger (5fcf49) — 2/7/2020 @ 1:34 pm

    But if you took a poll, Obama would be considered not very corrupt.

    Excet the idea behind Burisma taking on Hunter Biden was that they could convince people who mattered to them that Obama was corrutpt and Hunter Biden was how he was collecting the money.

    Sammy Finkelman (8e96a4)

  134. “No, We the People need people there that *we* can trust. Almost by definition, if he can trust them, we can’t.”
    Patterico (1d6a02) — 2/7/2020 @ 12:00 pm

    Too bad we’re “Soviet-lite”, otherwise we’d let elections settle that.

    Munroe (dd6b64)

  135. Radegunda (5ab384) — 2/7/2020 @ 8:49 am

    You should stop calling people stupid just because they don’t share your opinion about Trump.

    You really have zero self-awareness. It’s an amazing thing to behold.

    frosty (f27e97)

  136. vindman/vindman/2020

    mg (8cbc69)

  137. Too bad we’re “Soviet-lite”, otherwise we’d let elections settle that.

    The Soviets had elections. Trump’s buddy Vladimir has elections too.

    When the people in charge use their positions to tamper with the election, as Trump did, it’s not an election anymore – it’s a corrupt scam.

    Dave (1bb933)

  138. Dave,

    Yep

    Ragspierre (d9bec9)

  139. LOL, Jake Tapper from #FAKENEWSFAILINGCNN nails it:

    Which offends GOP Senators more?

    Schiff quoting a Trump confidant who told CBS News “Republican senators have been warned: Vote against the president and your head will be on a pike.”

    Or the WH putting heads on pikes? Romney, Vindman…

    Dave (1bb933)

  140. Wow, what did Trump even fire him for, he was just TRYING to lie about him as part of a conspiracy of his enemies to get him impeached, removed, and charged with fake crimes!

    “So it comes down to whether you view Trump as a guy trying to do what’s right being undermined by scoundrels, or whether you see him as a bad actor who wants to control any onlookers and prevent them from diming him out.

    I see him as the latter.”

    ‘Bad Actor’ is such a lame dodge. There is not a government or corporation in this country whose everyday executive negotiations couldn’t easily be interpreted to fall under the heading of ‘BAD ACTOR’. Trump’s primary duty is to the interests and traditions of Americans and NOT the interests and traditions of career State Department employees, dilettante Ambassadors who can be browbeaten into taking two positions in the same hearing, or lawyers with delusions of regulating foreign policy as though it’s ever been run by anything other than the same prison-yard rules which have applied between sovereign nations since time immemorial. (Moralizing about the need for regulation of these fields is, of course, simply a classic appeal for more money and power for lawyers and should always be treated as such.)

    Those American interests do, in fact, coincide with knowing whether a Vice President is using one of many various foreign connections available to enrich his family in ways he’s done in the past. Biden, at least, was never accomplished enough outside of politics to trade on his name alone.

    Peter Principles (3a1b46)

  141. “Or the WH putting heads on pikes? Romney, Vindman…”
    Dave (1bb933) — 2/7/2020 @ 2:54 pm

    So, Vindman is a Senator now.

    Munroe (dd6b64)

  142. There is not a government or corporation in this country whose everyday executive negotiations couldn’t easily be interpreted to fall under the heading of ‘BAD ACTOR’.</em

    Only if you an AOC-type mental defective.

    Trump as NOT in furtherance of ANY national interest. He was using his office corruptly.

    Ragspierre (d9bec9)

  143. Commenter Nic had Vindman characterized and pegged mucho-threads ago.

    _________

    Breaking: Both Vindmans and now Sondland have been fired.

    Not a ‘Sat. Night Massacre’—- more a ‘Slaughterhouse Fri.’

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  144. Round zem up

    mg (8cbc69)

  145. ‘Bad Actor’ is such a lame dodge. There is not a government or corporation in this country […]

    But smearing everyone else in the entire world to excuse Trump’s corruption is not “a lame dodge”, right?

    In World of Warcraft there’s a magical toy, made by gnomes, that makes your character appear giant-sized. The joke is that gnomish inventions are always over-engineered and prone to catastrophic side effects, so the toy actually works not by enlarging the user, but by shrinking everything *else* in the universe.

    Trump’s apologists apparently rely on the same technology.

    Dave (6ed7b7)

  146. perhaps vindman and his bro could start work for the Ukraine military in the ongoing maneuvers against russia, russia, russia

    mg (8cbc69)

  147. mg (8cbc69) — 2/7/2020 @ 3:59 pm

    Start? Vindman was pretty clear about why he thought the US aid to Ukraine was important.

    frosty (f27e97)

  148. 139. Schiff quoting a Trump confidant who told CBS News “Republican senators have been warned: Vote against the president and your head will be on a pike

    Schiff interpreting, what a nevertrumper interpreted,Trumps feelings about something might be.

    Can’t let facts get in the way of a good smear

    Iowantwo (8d44d6)

  149. Vindman was pretty clear about why he thought the US aid to Ukraine was important.

    So did Congress. So did Duh Donald after he was busted.

    Ragspierre (d9bec9)

  150. Can’t let facts get in the way of a good smear

    You can’t know that was a smear. It sure was in character with several people you or I could name.

    Ragspierre (d9bec9)

  151. Jeez, the sockpuppets are out in force today.

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (5cde89)

  152. Ragspierre (d9bec9) — 2/7/2020 @ 4:10 pm

    So does the Ukrainian government, the Ukrainian military, probably the US military.

    Did I miss anyone else? Did I get all of my spelling and grammar right? Did I fail the troll test?

    frosty (f27e97)

  153. I’ll bet a sockpuppet is a magical toy in World of Warcraft … made by gnomes.

    Munroe (dd6b64)

  154. Sondland has been fired, quite rightly. What an incompetent! Its not clear whether he was trying to hurt Trump, or was just plain stupid. I really liked his having sensitive phone calls in Ukrainian restaurants with the speaker on HIGH, so everyone could hear what Trump and him were saying.

    Brilliant.

    rcocean (1a839e)

  155. The person who really needs to be fired is the man who put both Vindman’s on the NSC and gave them 2 year terms, DESPITE knowing they were friends with the whistle Blower and were chummy with Never-Trumpers and Democrats.

    rcocean (1a839e)

  156. Just looked it up. who gave Vindman a 2-year gig at the NSC starting in July 2018? Why John Bolton. Of course. Interesting when this Ukrainian call went down, Vindman, Hill, Bolton, etc. all raced off the NSC lawyer – another Vindman – to get “legal” advice. In fact, Bolton went and talked to DoJ. Because the No. 1 priority is looking after your own butt, even if it leads to the POTUS getting impeached.

    rcocean (1a839e)

  157. What an incompetent! Its not clear whether he was trying to hurt Trump, or was just plain stupid. I really liked his having sensitive phone calls in Ukrainian restaurants with the speaker on HIGH, so everyone could hear what Trump and him were saying.

    Brilliant.

    Appalling. What kind of idiot would do something like that?

    Trump turns Mar-a-Lago Club terrace into open-air situation room

    Dave (1bb933)

  158. Reminder: Never respond to Time123 again.

    rcocean (1a839e)

  159. Newly published poll of New Hampshire Democrats shows some MAJOR support for SMOD:

    Which of the following outcomes would you prefer occur on November 3, 2020:

    38% Donald Trump wins re-election
    62% A giant meteor strikes the earth, extinguishing all human life

    Dave (1bb933)

  160. Now you’ve got a sense of what would have happened had Nixon ‘gone through the fire’ and survived the impeachment process.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  161. Vindman, Hill, Bolton, etc. all raced off the NSC lawyer – another Vindman – to get “legal” advice.

    I’m betting that the lawyer that was consulted was NOT a Vindman.

    And the place where the buck stops is the Oval Office. Blame the top manager.

    Ragspierre (d9bec9)

  162. Susan Collins certainly looks like an ass today– more so than usual. But hey, what price judges: she backed Kavanaugh.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  163. There are a whole bunch of GOP senate types who look like poltroons today.

    Because they are.

    Ragspierre (d9bec9)

  164. @163: Senators Romney, Delecto and Vindman.

    Munroe (dd6b64)

  165. Those American interests do, in fact, coincide with knowing whether a Vice President is using one of many various foreign connections available to enrich his family in ways he’s done in the past.

    I can’t convey my contempt for someone like you properly without using profanity, and I’m trying to be better about that (although my initial comment in this thread is testament to my failure and sums up how I feel about you). You care so farking deeply about corruption by government officials enriching their family — until it comes to Trump. Then, you don’t care at all. You are a soulless partisan. Never speak to me again.

    Patterico (115b1f)

  166. Even odds that they prefer to be the minority party in Congress. All the perks without the responsibility. And it’s very likely that they will be next year. The orange has no coattails.

    nk (1d9030)

  167. I think allowing comments worked out great, don’t you?

    : /

    Patterico (115b1f)

  168. @163: Senators Romney, Delecto and Vindman.

    I have never once seen a comment from Munroe that adds value.

    Patterico (115b1f)

  169. On the blocking script, you don’t need to type in the whole Make America Ordure Again. Just Make works.

    nk (1d9030)

  170. “Now you’ve got a sense of what would have happened had Nixon ‘gone through the fire’ and survived the impeachment process.”

    Nixon’s first mistake was failing to contest Cook County for the obvious fraud that it was after Kennedy’s election. He’s still impeached, and Cook County (and Illinois as a whole, and now many more states now that they saw Illinois get away with it) is still serving up voter fraud wholesale.

    Lesson learned: Never, ever, EVER assume the Democrats will keep ‘gentleman’s agreements’, they’ll be perfectly happy to stab you in the back at the first opportunity anyway.

    Peter Principles (d63ada)

  171. @170. Nixon was never ‘impeached;’ — he resigned.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  172. OT- the Demo-lition Debate. JoeyBee is in his get-off-my-lawn-yelling-mode tonight.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  173. You know, on the bright side, there’s gotta be a lot of former and present Orange House officials who are envious of Vindman for lasting a year and a half. Most of them have not or will not.

    nk (1d9030)

  174. “Nixon was never ‘impeached;’ — he resigned.”

    Yes, and ‘tendering your resignation’ in the threat of being fired is totally not the same thing.

    This is a happy day for normal people and an embittering day for cranks, quibblers, and wanna-be lawyers who think wasting a post to ‘fact-check’ or correct the grammar of something that isn’t a legal brief is a productive use of their time, almost as productive as making first-generation Russian immigrants or easily-swayed dilettante businessmen the voice and representatives of your (checks notes) ‘crusade to save the Republic from Nefarious Russian Influence.’

    It was always a work, and the party’s over. Trump is Acquitted with a capital A. Lawyers, cops, intel analysts, and diplomats with an axe to grind are not actually the highest ranking force in America!

    Confound their politics,
    Frustrate their knavish tricks,
    On Thee our hopes we fix,
    God Save us All!

    Quentin Quibbler (3884dc)

  175. @173. He survived until he played whack-a-mole with The Boss.

    And The Boss cheats.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  176. Not that it excuses Trump, but Vindman knew what he was doing. His career path was headed for retirement anyway.

    And in response to a comment way way way upthread about how Vindman had the gall to think he was more expert on Ukraine than the president? That was his job. To be more expert on Ukraine. It’s like being appalled that Trump’s doctor somehow thinks he knows more about medicine than Trump does.

    Nic (896fdf)

  177. To paraphrase Custer’s last words at Little Big Horn: Holy mackerel, where did all these f***ing Trump-bots come from?

    nk (1d9030)

  178. “still serving up voter fraud wholesale.”

    The only significant voter fraud in the last election was committed by Republicans.

    Davethulhu (fe4242)

  179. I have never once seen a comment from Munroe that adds value.

    True it is.

    Ragspierre (d9bec9)

  180. mr donald took lessons on the low rent district of russia also known as ukraine from president vladimir and he got straight a’s with a gold star on his report card so there

    Dave (1bb933)

  181. How can a thinking person think a military man should contradict the CiC. The President would be within his power to Court martial him, and have him executed. Vindman as an officer is not allowed an opinion. He is to carry out the will of his superiors.

    Iowantwo (8d44d6)

  182. You’ve never been in the military, have you? Or been a dog catcher…

    Ragspierre (d9bec9)

  183. @176. See #143. A box of stogies and the biggest brass ring to ‘ya, Nic– you had him characterized and pegged mucho-threads ago.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  184. Anybody care to try defending Trump’s choice to fire Col. Vindman’s brother?
    There must some reason, aside from Trump being a vindictive mobster.

    Radegunda (5ab384)

  185. “How can a thinking person think a military man should contradict the CiC. The President would be within his power to Court martial him, and have him executed. Vindman as an officer is not allowed an opinion. He is to carry out the will of his superiors.”

    1) What contradiction? Did Trump tell Vindman to lie on the stand?
    2) Officers (and all military members) take an oath to preserve, protect, and defend the constitution, and to obey the commands of their superiors in that order

    Davethulhu (fe4242)

  186. …and to obey the lawful commands of their superiors

    Ragspierre (d9bec9)

  187. I can’t get over that post. It’s fractally wrong. Disobeying an order isn’t a capital offense, barring special cases during wartime.

    Davethulhu (fe4242)

  188. 185,186. The President never violated the law or constitution. Innocent until proven guilty. Impeachment articles never charged a crime. Vindman concern never cited constitutional concerns
    There is a very defined chain of command. Vindman violated that chain of command.
    I see nothing that Vindman touched, that he followed proper channels.
    The contradiction? Vindman told Ukraine officials to ignore the President. Ignore his Commader in Chief.

    Iowantwo (8d44d6)

  189. I suspect “iowantwo” is attempting to get us confused and make “iowa2″ look bad

    Iowantwo (8d44d6)
    iowan2 (1c4a14)

    Kishnevi (822e2f)

  190. He (Iowantwo) does seem like an Idiot Out Walking Around, doesn’t he?

    nk (1d9030)

  191. The President never violated the law or constitution.

    Sure he did.

    Innocent until proven guilty.

    No. That’s a fiction that ONLY applies to a defendant before the criminal law.

    Impeachment articles never charged a crime.

    Yes, but they could have, as what T-rump did is, in fact, a violation of law. This is one area where the House was sloppy.

    There is a very defined chain of command. Vindman violated that chain of command.

    No. He did not.

    Based on your origanal post and this follow-up, you have no idea what you’re talking about.

    Ragspierre (d9bec9)

  192. Ignoring all the hyperbole, Vindman had announced that he was leaving his post at the end of the month. Most businesses will have someone leave immediately once they announce their intentions to leave.

    That said, if he doesn’t have the confidence of the President, he has no business being in his trusted circle. Any opinion he has would be looked upon with distrust.

    NJRob (4d595c)

  193. 191. Acquitted. There is a process to arrive at a verdict. Acquitted.
    Innocent until proven guilty. Is a foundational U.S. principle.
    Schiff never charged a crime, because crimes require elements. Defined elements. As crazed as Schiff is, he is not stupid enough to put himself on a position to get shredded by lawyers, demanding Schiff identify specific elements missing from his charge.
    Vindman has a Superior Officer. Of the people Vindman shared the Classified call with, his superior officer was not on that list. That’s just one failure of chain of command. (leaking classified info. With persons that had no need to know(common gossip)is yet another violation of military code))

    None of this is political. Nothing about policy differences, no personality differences. Simple military protocol

    Iowantwo (8d44d6)

  194. @183 *waves*

    Nic (896fdf)

  195. #191 “Yes, but they could have”

    LOL. That’s hilarious! So the Democrats had totally overwhelming evidence of actual crimes, but generously decided not to charge Trump with those, preferring to go with two vague non-crimes instead. How magnanimous of them.

    Twerp.

    BorisB (3972b7)

  196. LOL, jerk.

    Yes. Duh Donald DID violate the law and SHOULD have been charged under it. It was sloppy of the House to NOT charge him.

    There is a very fine analysis by a lady lawyer I read several days ago. But for my names curse, I’d give you a reference. May have been in Reason.

    Asphole.

    Ragspierre (d9bec9)

  197. Simple military protocol

    About which you obviously know jack-spit.

    Ragspierre (d9bec9)

  198. Yeah, “sloppy”, that’s what it was, hehe. Then you SHOULD be thrilled that such sloppy articles of impeachment got the short shrift that they deserved in the Senate, right?

    It has been morbidly fascinating to observe the descent of some formerly (seemingly) sane people into the depths of full-blown Trump Derangement over the past few years. I’d be interested in a psychiatric explanation of this phenomenon.

    BorisB (3972b7)

  199. is is unbelievable that anyone would not want to suck mr. president trump’s ass, mr. BorisB

    i already said that

    they must be deranged

    nk (1d9030)

  200. 100 of 100 Senators (if we can credit Ted Cruz) knew that there was a quid pro quo.

    There was no “perfect” phone call. There WAS a grubby little crime by a grubby thug.

    And it is enabled by a grubby little cohort of cultist like you.

    Hehe.

    Ragspierre (d9bec9)

  201. “The constable blundered so the criminal goes free” used to be a law-and-order conservative mantra. I have already said more than once that Schiff blew the case. As a prosecutor, he was basically incompetent.

    nk (1d9030)

  202. At least we can put to bed the Trump is incapable of learning complaint. Pre-Mueller Trump would have fired Vindman via tweet while he was testifying.

    frosty (f27e97)

  203. Ragspierredelecto, have you ever made anything resembling a substantive comment here? Or is it all “Sure he did!”, “No he did not!” and “They should have!” grade school lip flapping?

    BorisB (3972b7)

  204. #202

    1. Evil Trump *must be guilty*
    2. If Evil Trump was found not guilty, then the case *must have been botched* because See 1.

    BorisB (3972b7)

  205. Trump lacks the dignity to be evil. I like Ragspierre’s formulation: [A] grubby little crime by a grubby thug.

    nk (1d9030)

  206. OT, have any of you guys seen John Wick 3 yet? I watched it last night, and found out for myself what vicarious PTSD is.

    nk (1d9030)

  207. #206 Except that nobody was able to present any actual evidence of any crime, so that’s a bit of a problem. But otherwise, yeah, extraordinarily witty.

    BorisB (3972b7)

  208. [A] grubby little crime by a grubby thug.

    The Dems’ hyperbole about Trump — fascist, like Hitler, etc.– has been a gift to Trump apologists, who can say “Look, he’s not sending people off to concentration camps; therefore all that talk about abuse of power and lack of conscience is just a lot of TDS!!”

    Trump’s amorality is of a different sort. He probably won’t shoot you on Fifth Avenue — he might be too squeamish for that. But he won’t hesitate to ruin your life if he gets some advantage from it, or as payback for some minor slight (“he’ll hit back ten times harder!”). He makes it abundantly clear that he defines good & bad in a self-serving way — and his apologists simply refuse to see it.

    Radegunda (5ab384)

  209. #209 I’ll support the guy who’s not afraid to fight the Left on all fronts and has given America arguably its strongest economy ever. You can continue to wait for Jesus.

    BorisB (3972b7)

  210. You can continue to wait for Jesus.

    I’m not waiting for Jesus. Just someone who understands the difference between true and false, and between what is ethical and what simply serves himself, and who has a willingness to learn, who doesn’t need to be walked through picture books because he won’t read anything, who isn’t openly, shamelessly vindictive etc.

    The notion that Trump is courageously fighting the left on all fronts is fantasy. The only battle he really cares about winning is keeping himself on top and getting adulation.

    Radegunda (5ab384)

  211. I congratulate you on your mad mind-reading skillz, but as long as he continues to deliver I’m not really interested in what his innermost motivations are.

    BorisB (3972b7)

  212. #210

    I’ll support the guy who’s not afraid to fight the Left on all fronts and has given America arguably its strongest economy ever. You can continue to wait for Jesus.

    “[A]rguably its strongest economy ever” is BS. What we have is the Obama economy goosed by a deficit-financed $1.5 trillion stimulus.

    The rest is just ends-justify-the-means nihilism. If your life’s ambition was to become an unprincipled tribalist, congratulations. You made it.

    lurker (d8c5bc)

  213. My principles are winning elections and implementing a right-wing agenda, at which Trump has succeeded better than any president in living memory. Yours seem to boil down to losing politely. Which is why you’re worse than useless.

    BorisB (22d57f)

  214. lurker/pete and his meat/2020

    mg (8cbc69)

  215. RIP Orson Bean

    mg (8cbc69)

  216. Yours seem to boil down to losing politely.

    Between 2009 and 2015, before Trump crawled out of his sewer, the GOP gained over 1000 seats nationwide in congress, state legislatures and governorships.

    Dave (1bb933)

  217. #217 If you think that “winning” means getting elected to seats and occupying them, then sure.

    BorisB (22d57f)

  218. Trumps accomplishments are meager.
    But he’s great at self promoting.
    His strongest supporters are motivated in large part he grievances at loss of status for their tribe.
    They can’t admit that because admitting to feeling hurt makes them feel weak.
    So they desperately pretend that he’s actually accomplished whatever silly claim he makes and change the subject. They usually change it to some attack on a rival tribe. This makes them feel that their moral standing is relatively better and that any question around Trump is illegitimate.

    Not sure if this describes Boris or not, but it describes some of the usual trump supporters here.

    Commentors like frosty, whembly, bored lawyer, etc seem to have different motivations.

    And none of this is meant to say anything at all (positive or negative) about the left.

    Time123 (7b45c6)

  219. 218. Getting elected to the presidency is sure how Trump humpers define “winning,” so there’s that.

    Gryph (08c844)

  220. “Principles”. You keep using that word. I don’t think it means what you think it means (in politics)

    HT: Inigo Montoya

    Horatio (d34efa)

  221. Getting elected to the presidency is sure how Trump humpers define “winning,” so there’s that.

    That you used “haters” in your asinine is hilariously ironic.

    Yes, winning an election is winning. I’m so glad you pointed that out.

    (Then the President, Trump if elected, does things. See how that works?)

    Make America Ordered Again (23f793)

  222. 222. Well, you’re barking up the wrong tree with me. There’s not a dime’s worth of difference between the two parties. You think it matters if Trump wins. I’m telling you it doesn’t. He’ll skim the pot for however many years he’s in the Oval Office and after he leaves it will go right back to the way it was before.

    Gryph (08c844)

  223. @223 but between now and then MAOA gets to feel like a man again because his team is “winning”.

    Time123 (7b45c6)

  224. Principles in any human pursuit means exactly what it has always meant to a conservative.

    Being unprincipled…especially to the point of mocking the very idea of having principles…is one of the terrible hallmarks of the T-rump decline.

    Ragspierre (d9bec9)

  225. Bore-ass

    just fyi, a slightly-over 2% growth rate is

    1. not the ‘greatest’ or ‘strongest’ economy evah

    2. on the same trend-line as the Obama Recovery

    You’ve been served a big, steaming bowl of boob-bait, and you sucked the enamel off in your zeal to worship a phony “winner”.

    Ragspierre (d9bec9)

  226. Trump can fire Vindman but does anyone here believe Vindman had access to any real information or power since his testimony? Of course he didn’t. This is about Trump getting even (“I love getting even with people”), his mission as an adult and as a child.

    It makes sense that Trump did this as a child. Hurting someone else makes hurting, insecure children feel better … but this is a childish emotion that is ridiculous to see in an adult, especially someone who has power over other people.

    DRJ (15874d)

  227. Trump can fire Vindman but does anyone here believe Vindman had access to any real information or power since his testimony? Of course he didn’t.

    In which case, he’s useless at that position, taking up people’s time keeping info away from him no less, whereas he can be moved to a position where he can actually serve the army and the country.

    So just leaving him there doing nothing is no solution to anything.

    Make America Ordered Again (23f793)

  228. I love getting even with people

    We see this as a feature, not a bug.

    And goshdarnit, you just convinced me: I am going to leave that negative restaurant review after all.

    Make America Ordered Again (23f793)

  229. So just leaving him there doing nothing is no solution to anything.

    That’s a totally sensible position.

    Of course, it isn’t the Trumpian mode, which is maximum personal destruction and nastiness.

    Ragspierre (d9bec9)

  230. Time123 (7b45c6) — 2/8/2020 @ 5:16 am

    I’d agree with you on motivations of some Trump voters. My only disagreement might be that this isn’t limited to Trump voters. It also applies to some of the R based anti-Trump response right down to the necessary moral preening.

    frosty (f27e97)

  231. For the record, I think many Trump supporters are kind of dim.

    However, most of the ones who bother to comment on this website present real arguments and perspectives. They’re called trolls anyway because their arguments and perspectives are painful for those who don’t like him to hear, especially to the degree that they make sense.

    Make America Ordered Again (23f793)

  232. this is a childish emotion that is ridiculous to see in an adult, especially someone who has power over other people.

    Heh. Chortle.

    PTw (6ee685)

  233. Oh, BS, you little Himmler!

    You’ve been called a troll for trolling. As has Munro, who is almost nothing BUT a troll.

    But way to stroke your collocutors…!!!

    Ragspierre (d9bec9)

  234. …this is a childish emotion that is ridiculous to see in an adult, especially someone who has power over other people.

    It is the action of a deeply pathological narcissist, and is downright dangerous.

    Ragspierre (d9bec9)

  235. Gryph (08c844) — 2/8/2020 @ 7:08 am

    The corruption will continue. I’m not convinced we’ll get back to R=D. The bloom is off that rose. In the past 4 years the D’s have moved from we’re not gun grabbers to we’re going to grab guns. They don’t pretend to safe, legal and rare. They still deny being open borders, sometimes, but they’ve got the new way forward floating out there. They are off the chain. The R’s are going in the opposite direction. They still share a love of spending money so maybe that will bring them back together.

    A lot depends on how the demographics shake up for 2020. I don’t think African Americans are the homogeneous voting block they’re expected to be. I don’t think blue collar voters are either. A lot will depend on the D nominee. But if the parties don’t have the same reliable voting blocks the message will change and by default the parties change.

    frosty (f27e97)

  236. I know getting even is something people like. It is sad.

    DRJ (15874d)

  237. I know getting even is something people like. It is sad.

    Dude, you have no idea how old and rotten and bitter-tasting a lot of their ingredients were! Or how the manager acted when I pointed that out.

    And what’s the point of putting EXTRA layers of old, soggy tomatoes over the nachos so you have to dig through them with your fingers to get to your burned, sodden corn chips anwyay? Do they think that by giving you more spoiled produce this makes up in value with quantity what was lost in quality?

    I must have comeuppance.

    Make America Ordered Again (23f793)

  238. I must have comeuppance.

    If you don’t like what your parents served, have them over for dinner at your place.

    Ragspierre (d9bec9)

  239. F-ing right.

    Make America Ordered Again (23f793)

  240. When asked about his favorite passage from the Bible:

    Donald Trump said in a radio interview on Thursday that his favorite teaching in the Bible is the Old Testament punishment of an “eye for eye.”

    “Is there a favorite Bible verse or Bible story that has informed your thinking or your character through life, sir?” asked host Bob Lonsberry on WHAM 1180 AM.

    Trump responded, “Well, I think many. I mean, when we get into the Bible, I think many, so many. And some people, look, an eye for an eye, you can almost say that. That’s not a particularly nice thing. But you know, if you look at what’s happening to our country, I mean, when you see what’s going on with our country, how people are taking advantage of us, and how they scoff at us and laugh at us. And they laugh at our face, and they’re taking our jobs, they’re taking our money, they’re taking the health of our country. And we have to be firm and have to be very strong. And we can learn a lot from the Bible, that I can tell you.”

    This was after a number of earlier interviews where he called the Bible his favorite book, but couldn’t cite a single passage from it.

    Dave (1bb933)

  241. #226 “2. on the same trend-line as the Obama Recovery”

    Ah yes, the “Obama Recovery”, which was strangely invisible while Marxist Chimp was actually president, but *magically appeared* as soon as Trump took office. The recovery that Marxist Chimp himself said wouldn’t happen because the jobs wouldn’t be coming back, LOL.

    Remember how the stock market surged the moment it became clear that Trump had won? Remember that, Ragspierredelecto?

    Feel free to point out the last time we had a set of economic indicators as strong as what we’re seeing now thanks to Trump.

    And WTF does “on the same trend-line” even mean? Dwarves and giants both grow “on the same trend line” but the outcomes are a bit different, aren’t they?

    Of course not very deep down you know all this, but have been driven insane by the cognitive dissonance of someone you despise being wildly successful. At least try to conceal your sublimated Trump envy – it’s embarrassing.

    BorisB (3972b7)

  242. The recovery that Marxist Chimp himself said wouldn’t happen because the jobs wouldn’t be coming back

    That was cast down the memory hole almost as it happened.

    frosty (f27e97)

  243. What a fantastic story, Dave. That was great. Julius Caesar himself couldn’t have said it any better, save perhaps with action against Gaul’s Vercingetorix at Caesar’s Triumph.

    Make America Ordered Again (23f793)

  244. Feel free to point out the last time we had a set of economic indicators as strong as what we’re seeing now thanks to Trump.

    Well, see if you can name a few “economic indicators” for us, and I’ll try to dispel your awful stupid on the matter.

    You seem to think that the Great And Powerful Wizard Of Odd makes the crops grow and the rains to fall. No POTUS makes a good economy, especially one who hurts whole sectors of business like Mr. Stabil Geni’sAss has done with his dictatorial tariffs.

    I’m not at all surprised that you don’t know what the GDP growth trend line is. I expect it’s like any number of real-world concepts you confuse with giants and dwarfs.

    Ragspierre (d9bec9)

  245. Totally absent from that waffle was any attempt to answer my question.

    BorisB (22d57f)

  246. #241 Go vote for Buttfag then. I hear he’s really into the Bible, apart from all the bits that don’t apply to him.

    BorisB (22d57f)

  247. BorisB (22d57f) — 2/8/2020 @ 6:00 pm

    That’s not how that troll works. Step 1 is to assert that you don’t know what you’re talking about. Step 2 is to assert that you aren’t making sense. You’ll never get an honest attempt at a conversation.

    frosty (f27e97)

  248. Totally absent from that waffle was any attempt to answer my question.

    BoreAss, I gave you a chance to clarify your stupid “question” so I could help your frighting stupid a little.

    You muffed it. Again.

    Ragspierre (d9bec9)

  249. Go vote for Buttfag then.

    Wow.

    Dave (1bb933)

  250. #241 Go vote for Buttfag then. I hear he’s really into the Bible, apart from all the bits that don’t apply to him.

    BorisB (22d57f) — 2/8/2020 @ 6:02 pm

    Boris, it’s ok to come out of the closet buddy. Y’all don’t have to do that phony OMGtheGays thing anymore.

    Dustin (b8d6d1)

  251. Dustin, you little pederast, have I struck a nerve?

    BorisB (22d57f)

  252. I think you have indeed struck a nerve. You actually seem to be freaking out for some reason. It’s OK these days to just come on out and admit why that subject is so important to you.

    Dustin (b8d6d1)

  253. #251 Fetch the smelling salts, another delicate NeverTrump flower just had his exquisite sensibilities offended.

    BorisB (3972b7)

  254. Buttigieg may be as gay as Trump, but he acts straighter. Trump is a parody of a b!tchy queen. I’m still not voting for either one, though. Either one is likely to make it mandatory by executive order.

    nk (1d9030)

  255. Fetch the smelling salts, another delicate NeverTrump flower just had his exquisite sensibilities offended.

    Huh…

    A whole ‘nuther set of terms and concepts that BoreAss obviously knows crap-all about.

    Truly sweeping in scale…

    Ragspierre (d9bec9)

  256. I think he’s trying to say he’s not really gay no matter how much he apparently is obsessed with telling us he is not gay, through unnecessarily detailed insults about butts. Maybe some of this love for Trump is … actually love?

    Dustin (b8d6d1)

  257. Fetch the smelling salts, another delicate NeverTrump flower just had his exquisite sensibilities offended.

    Do you refer to blacks as n*****s too?

    Dave (6ed7b7)

  258. That series of comments captures in a nutshell one of the reasons why mayor pete won’t get the nomination.

    frosty (f27e97)

  259. Dave, I can’t make out that word with all the asterisks. Could you please spell it out fully? Cheers.

    BorisB (3972b7)

  260. It’s “neighbors”, BorisB. The one thing Trumphumpers never want to call black people. Neighbors. Cheers!

    nk (1d9030)

  261. OMG, he censored the word “neighbors” with respect to black people?? Filthy NeverTrump racist.

    BorisB (3972b7)

  262. Your brilliant repartee is too awesome for mere mortals, BorisB. Please to take your rest in my blocking script.

    nk (1d9030)

  263. Oh no, not your blocking script! Anything but that!

    BorisB (3972b7)

  264. Oh no, not your blocking script! Anything but that!

    Anyone’s allowed to block anybody, but it’s definitely a weird way to prove the other people, not you, are in a cult.

    Make America Ordered Again (23f793)

  265. #257

    I think he’s trying to say he’s not really gay no matter how much he apparently is obsessed with telling us he is not gay, through unnecessarily detailed insults about butts. Maybe some of this love for Trump is … actually love?
    Dustin (b8d6d1) — 2/8/2020 @ 8:06 pm

    Boris has a legitimate “beef.” He asserted it rather eloquently under his pseudonym Bruce Heffernan.

    lurker (d8c5bc)

  266. #258

    Do you refer to blacks as n*****s too?

    No, he was pretty clear about that. Black people are Chimps.

    lurker (d8c5bc)

  267. #267

    Straight from your Favorites list, lurker?

    BorisB (22d57f)

  268. Pete and his meat/fagspierre/2020

    mg (8cbc69)

  269. So we’re not the Soviet Union, where they kill people for this stuff. We’re Soviet-lite. We just make sure they’re not around any more.

    The guy will be moved to the DOD, will retain his rank, salary and pension. True, he will not get to work in the plum White House job, and that is because the current occupant of the White House does not trust him.

    To compare this to the Soviet Union is absolutely bizarre.

    Dude, you have TDS very badly. I despise Trump and would be happy to see him replaced by Pence (or better yet, Cruz). But I am not crazed the way many are.

    Bored Lawyer (56c962)

  270. Way to go, Boris. Let your racist flag fly.

    Paul Montagu (ae8832)

  271. Way to go, Boris. Let your racist flag fly.

    He doesn’t just hate people. He’s demonstrated a hatred for history, economics, current events, and reality generally.

    Sad really.

    Ragspierre (d9bec9)

  272. 154. rcocean (1a839e) — 2/7/2020 @ 4:49 pm

    Sondland has been fired, quite rightly. What an incompetent!

    wonder if Trump understands that, because Sondland quite possibly got him impeached. By what he did in the first week of September.

    His departure was not announced by the White House, and it’s not clear that he actually leaves the Stae Department right away,

    It would not have been a surprise had he been recalled earlier. But i t seemed like that Sondland could keep doing his job as Ambassador to the European Union since September – it is just that he was going to get any more special assignments or personal contact with the president. during his testimony before the House Intelligence Impeachment Committee, at one point it was put to him that Trump said he did not know him well, and Gordon Sondland said “Easy come, easy go.”

    It’s a surprise, (but maybe should not have been) because Trump had tolerated his continuing in office for the last five months. If he could last that long, he might as well just stay there, in his limited job. This now reminds me of his firing of Attorney General Jeff Sessions the day after the November, 2018 election.

    This also may be reminiscent of George W. Bush firing Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld right after the November 2006 election but there W didn’t want it to look like it was motivated by politics – it could conceivably have helped the Republicans in that election (at the price of making it harder to get support for the change in strategy in the Iraq war that he planned.) David Holmes’ testimony on that point was probably false. The cell phone call was not, and could not be, on Speakerphone. You could claim that maybe Gordon sndland wanted the people with him to hear he was talking to the president and so took the ophone away from his ear, but nobody made that claim. I think Holmes just simply lied. Although it didn’t really strengthen the case against Trump.

    David Holmes tried to make it consistent with other testimony, but it’s not, because Trump had already been told directly by Zelensky in the July 25 call that they were going to do investigations, and if Trump would have been interested in any follow-up it would have been whether he was going to meet with Giuliani. The phone call did take place, and Sondland’s end of it was heard in public in the outdoor portion of a cafe, but it probably entirely, and not just almost entirely, consisted of Sondland telling Trump what he was doing to try to get ASAP Rocky out of Sweden. ( this was the the rock star charged with assault who said it was really self defense, who was not even being allowed bail because Sweden said bail didn’t exist in Sweden) Not something very classified.

    Sammy Finkelman (8e96a4)

  273. The reason it was only the Vindman twins and Gordon Sondland who were transferred or removed is that all the rest of the witnesses who testified against the president’s instructions had either left government employ before, or were career civil servants (as, in effect, also were the Vindman brothers, but their positions in the White House were both intended to be temporary and subject to the president’s veto or approval.)

    Kurt Volker, the envoy charged with negotiating a peace agreement between Ukraine and Russia resigned when this matter became public, possibly so that he would be free to turn over his (personal but work related) text messages to the House Intelligence Committee.

    Bill Taylor, a former Ambassador to Ukraine during the Bush 43 Administration, and for the first few moths of the Obama Administration – June 2006 to May 2009) had a temporary appointment as chargé d’affaires (the highest rank Pompeo could give him without going to the president) or you could call him Acting Ambassador, that could last maximum until January 9, 2020, and Pompeo told him to leave about a week earlier so that he would not be photographed or written about with Taylor n his scheduled visit to Ukraine – the visit was postponed owing to the Soleimani assassination and the ensuing battle of nerves with Iran.

    Taylor had written a first person cable to the State Department at the suggestion of John Bolton who was visiting Kiev at the end of August. Adam Schiff was particularly interested in getting his hands on that cable, because it reportedly said what he texted later that crazy to withhold security assistance for help with a political campaign, an idea he probably got because of Gordon Sondland, who linked them together (but not yet to the Ukrainiana) on August 28 or 29, after the Politico article came out.

    Fiona Hill and Tim Morrison had already resigned, as had, by the way, John Bolton and Charles Kupperman.

    Sammy Finkelman (8e96a4)

  274. The New York Times put it well:

    https://www.nytimes.com/2020/02/07/us/politics/alexander-vindman-gordon-sondland-fired.html

    It may have been untenable for them to keep working for a president with whom they broke so publicly, but the White House made no effort to portray the ousters as anything other than reprisals.

    A new article says that some Republican Senators tried to stop the firing of Gordon D. Sondland:

    The senators were concerned that it would look bad for Mr. Trump to dismiss Mr. Sondland and argued that it was unnecessary, since the ambassador was already talking with senior officials about leaving after the Senate trial, the people said. The senators told White House officials that Mr. Sondland should be allowed to depart on his own terms, which would have reduced any political backlash.

    But Mr. Trump evidently was not interested in a quiet departure, choosing instead to make a point by forcing Mr. Sondland out before the ambassador was ready to go. When State Department officials called Mr. Sondland on Friday to tell him that he had to resign that day, he resisted, saying that he did not want to be included in what seemed like a larger purge of impeachment witnesses, according to the people informed about the matter.

    Mr. Sondland conveyed to the State Department officials that if they wanted him gone that day, they would have to fire him. And so the president did, ordering the ambassador recalled from his post effective immediately. Mr. Sondland’s dismissal was announced just hours after another impeachment witness, Lt. Col. Alexander S. Vindman, and his twin brother, Lt. Col. Yevgeny Vindman, were marched out of the White House by security officers and told their services were no longer needed.

    Sammy Finkelman (8e96a4)

  275. #273

    Still can’t answer, trollop? It’s been 24 hours.

    BorisB (22d57f)

  276. Geez. Now BoreAss is calling poor Sammy names.

    What did Sammy ever do to BoreAss?

    Ragspierre (d9bec9)

  277. Sh!t like BorisB is how we got Trump. I mean that literally, especially the sh!t part. He is a complete, out-and-out, example of the human excrement that gave Trump the Republican primary.

    nk (1d9030)

  278. Eat it, nk.

    BorisB (22d57f)

  279. BorisB would have us believe that he isn’t a racist despite him calling a half-black Obama a “Marxist chimp”. It’s not believable that he isn’t a racist.

    Paul Montagu (ae8832)

  280. Actually, Paul, I never said I’m not a racist. “Racism” is a left-wing concept and I couldn’t care less about it. In fact it’s pathetic how many so-called conservatives are in thrall to the left’s Holy Axiom that !!racism!! is some sort of Ultimate Sin.

    And yes, Barack Obama is a Marxist and looks more like a chimpanzee than any human being I’ve ever seen.

    BorisB (3972b7)

  281. Congrats, Boris. You found a true avatar in Trump.

    Like Trump, you and your ilk are moral skidmarks on everything you touch.

    lurker (d8c5bc)

  282. You can go back to your gay porn now, lurker.

    BorisB (22d57f)

  283. Lew Alcindor with a beard appeared very ape like.

    mg (8cbc69)

  284. nk (1d9030) — 2/8/2020 @ 9:26 pm

    I think BorisB and Ben are the same person.

    felipe (023cc9)

  285. Poor BoreAss, I guess I’ll just have to hep ’em despite his inability to ask a half-way bright question, AND his general assholiness.

    OF COURSE there was something called the Obama Recovery, and it was called that misnomer for the same reasonsssssss that we talk about the “T-rump tax cuts” (which really should be called the McConnell tax cuts after the guy who birthed them). The recovery during the Obama years is what allows a dunce like Hannity to continually mouth “the longest recovery in U.S. history”, when Duh Donald has only been in office for two of the eight years we’ve been “recovering”.

    I supply a chart so maybe BoreAss’s mommy or caretaker can explain it to him. Note the Obama years where growth was every bit as strong as under SuperTrump. What the chart DOES NOT show is that GDP growth was just over 2% in 2019, and is projected to be 1.8-1.9% this year. https://mgmresearch.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/05/US-Real-GDP-Growth-1980-2020-2.png

    OF COURSE no POTUS makes a good economy, though they sure can hurt one, as Trump has done with his diktat tariffs, mandates, and subsidies. And STILL we manage to thrive, despite our saviors in D.C.

    OF COURSE Baracula told people that SOME jobs weren’t “coming back”. This is what we call a tautology. Bruce Springsteen had a lyric along those lines. Duh. There are jobs we don’t WANT to come back if you think about it.

    Ragspierre (d9bec9)

  286. Barack Obama is a Marxist and looks more like a chimpanzee than any human being I’ve ever seen.

    BorisB (3972b7) — 2/10/2020 @ 12:57 am

    First of all, Trump barely looks human. If he were on star trek you would definitely assume he’s one of those overly done makeup aliens.

    Second, I never thought Obama’s problem was that he was black or the mom jeans memes. His problem was that he looked down on a lot of us in a subtle but very real way. And of course I disagreed with him on a lot of views. Had Obama really fulfilled his 2004 unifying speech he would have been one of the greatest presidents in history, but that was not the easier path that almost all politicians take.

    This ‘he’s from kenya’ or ‘he looks like a monkey’ stuff might get a laugh from a loser on 4 chan, and it’s good that multiple trump fans are insisting that if you’re blocked, banned, or ignored, that just showed nevertrumpers are a cult. Something is deeply wrong with our society. I wish I could say racism was dead, and just a card the left plays to get their way. I wish that were true.

    Dustin (689188)

  287. “Racism” is a left-wing concept and I couldn’t care less about it.

    I agree that you couldn’t less, but the KKK wasn’t founded on a “left-wing concept”, it was rather by good old-fashioned bigotry, and you’re trafficking in racist bigotry.

    Paul Montagu (ae8832)

  288. You guys should go easy on Boris.

    He’s obviously having a rough time with puberty.

    Dave (1bb933)

  289. You’ll never need to worry about committing a “thoughtcrime”.

    You don’t have the kit.

    Ragspierre (d9bec9)

  290. “BoreAss”

    Good to see you’re taking Patterico’s plea to be less aggressive with the name-calling seriously.

    And yeah, I’ve used words like “stupid” here a few days ago, but am recently challenging my mind to come out with better arguments and facts to support them rather than simply should more vitrioically (which hopefully will have the side effect of making me smarter).

    Make America Ordered Again (23f793)

  291. *should shout

    Make America Ordered Again (23f793)

  292. Ah. And I see it goes both ways.

    Make America Ordered Again (23f793)

  293. Good to see you’re taking Patterico’s plea to be less aggressive with the name-calling seriously.

    If you’re going to play hall monitor, you should read the time stamps.

    Otherwise someone might observe you’re trolling…stupidly.

    Ragspierre (d9bec9)

  294. I apologize for not recognizing the order of the timestamps.

    Make America Ordered Again (23f793)

  295. …it was a such a simple question…

    It’s been answered multiple times. And a simple question is all you could possibly pose.

    Ragspierre (d9bec9)

  296. No.

    Ragspierre (d9bec9)


Powered by WordPress.

Page loaded in: 1.0015 secs.