Patterico's Pontifications

1/30/2020

More Proof Evangelical Church Has Lost Its Way In The Season Of Trump

Filed under: General — Dana @ 5:31 pm



[guest post by Dana]

Note: Consider this a little impeachment reprieve for those who are exhausted from talking about it.

I have written a number of posts concerning the seeming-rise of charlatans and grifters in Evangelical church pulpits since the ascendancy of Trump. The Church has always had wolves in its midst, this is nothing new. The pulpit provides a uniquely tempting opportunity for the corrupt to wield power and influence over vulnerable, lost souls. The corrupt shepherds dressed in sheep’s clothing, who deign to instruct others on how they should live, are practiced in the art of deception and can smoothly recite longed-for words of persuasion as they successfully manipulate the naive and the willing. It’s a dangerous game, this wolf playing good shepherd. Eventually their con will come to an end, and they will have to answer for their perversion of God and Scripture, and for preying on the saints. Until that time though, the “mission” remains: If the money is good, let the good times keep roll. All in the name of Christ, of course.

With that, this is Paula White, President Trump’s spiritual advisor and Special Adviser to the White House Faith and Opportunity Initiative . She is also known as the God Whisperer. I’ll just say that if she is actually advising Trump on spiritual matters, it could explain a whole lot.

We interrupt that which has been deployed to hurt the church in this season, that which has been deployed to hurt this nation. In the name of Jesus, forgive us for our sins. Come on, I need you guys to pray. We cancel every surprise from the witchcraft [sic] and the marine kingdom — any hex, any spell, any witchcraft, any spirit of control, any Jezebel, anything that the enemy desires through spells, through witchcraft, through any way that is manipulation, demonic manipulation. We curse that. We break it, according to the word of God.

In the name of Jesus, we come against the marine kingdom, we come against the animal kingdom, the woman who rides upon the waters. We break the power, in the name of Jesus, and we declare that any strange winds, any strange winds that have been sent to hurt the church, sent against this nation, sent against our president, sent against myself, sent against others — we break it by the superior blood of Jesus right now. In the name of Jesus, we arrest every infirmity, affliction, fatigue, weariness, weakness, fear, sickness, any self-righteousness, any self-serving action, God.

Let pride fall, let pride fall, let pride fall, let pride fall, in the name of Jesus. We command all satanic pregnancies to miscarry right now. We declare that anything that’s been conceived in satanic wombs, that it will miscarry, it will not be able to carry forth any plan of destruction, any plan of harm

White, who leads a congregation of 10,000 worshipers at the New Destiny Christian Center megachurch, attempted to clarify what she meant when she prayed for women to miscarry babies in their um, [double-checks notes]…”satanic wombs”:

So calling out White’s crazy “satanic womb” mumbo-jumbo is nothing but a disingenuous attempt to use words out of context for political gain

For reference, here is Ephesians 6:12 NASB:

For our struggle is not against [a]flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the powers, against the world forces of this darkness, against the spiritual forces of wickedness in the heavenly places.

Yet more evidence of disturbed Trump-supporting pastors who have deified the President as if he were a co-equal with the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, is Evangelical pastor Rodney Howard-Browne. Howard-Browne was so upset over John Bolton’s claims about Trump and the Ukraine in his yet-to-be-released memoir, “The Room Where it Happens,” that he launched an attack on the former national security advisor:

“You are a slime ball of the highest order …. I should have knocked your sorry butt through the door of the Oval Office into the rose garden when I saw you. I would have gladly been arrested …. what a Benedict Arnold ….. I am glad you were fired !!!!!” Howard-Browne tweeted Monday.

“I have no respect for someone who is disloyal to the President and loyal to deep state !!! No respect! No respect at all …… what a globalist sellout!” he added.

As if that weren’t enough, Howard-Browne also tweeted:

“WWJD: he would have made a whip and beat the crap out of him!!!!”

Apparently this was a tweet too far for Howard-Browne, as it seems that he has since deleted the tweet.

I am reminded of this gem from David French, as he discussed the Evangelical response to *any* political leader:

The proper Evangelical position toward any president is not hard to articulate, though it is exceedingly difficult to hold to, especially in polarized times when one party seems set on limiting religious liberty and zealously defending abortion: We should pray for presidents, critique them when they’re wrong, praise them when they’re right, and never, ever impose partisan double standards. We can’t ever forget the importance of character, the necessity of our own integrity, and the power of the prophetic witness.

In other words, Evangelicals can never take a purely transactional approach to politics. We are never divorced from our transcendent purpose, which always trumps political expediency. In scripture, prophets confronted leaders about their sin. They understood a core truth, one clearly articulated in the Southern Baptist Convention’s 1998 Resolution on Moral Character of Public Officials: “Tolerance of serious wrong by leaders sears the conscience of the culture, spawns unrestrained immorality and lawlessness in the society, and surely results in God’s judgment.”

All too many of our nation’s Evangelical leaders haven’t just “tolerated” serious wrongdoing by Trump, they’ve rationalized and minimized it.

WWJD, you ask?? He’d tell White, Howard-Browne, and other false prophets, grifters, and liars misrepresenting him in the Evangelical church to knock this shit off right now. (See 2 Peter.) He would also remind believers that He has already made it very clear that they are to watch out for those who cause divisions and create obstacles contrary to the doctrine that you have been taught; avoid them. For such persons do not serve our Lord Christ, but their own appetites, and by smooth talk and flattery they deceive the hearts of the naive. Time for those sitting in the pews to
wise up.

(Cross-posted at The Jury Talks Back.)

–Dana

86 Responses to “More Proof Evangelical Church Has Lost Its Way In The Season Of Trump”

  1. Just oh my gosh.

    Dana (aaddb1)

  2. Evangelicals are ignorant of the religion they purport to preach. They just make stuff up. Their congregations are just as ignorant as they are, so they get away with it. It has always been that way. In older days, they’d sell snake-oil elixirs and put on a hoochie coochie show, too. Cher has a song about it.

    Anyway … this Paula White jackleg has 10,000 members in her congregation? My Church has more than 500 parishes, 800 priests and approximately 440,000 to 2 million faithful in America, depending on the source of reports and the counting method being used. (The 440,000 would be “every Sunday”, and the 2 million Christmas and Easter, I’m guessing. 😉 )

    nk (1d9030)

  3. Evangelicals are ignorant of the religion they purport to preach. They just make stuff up. Their congregations are just as ignorant as they are, so they get away with it. It has always been that way. In older days, they’d sell snake-oil elixirs and put on a [dancing girl] show, too. Cher has a song about it.

    Anyway … this Paula White jackleg has 10,000 members in her congregation? My Church has more than 500 parishes, 800 priests and approximately 440,000 to 2 million faithful in America, depending on the source of reports and the counting method being used. (The 440,000 would be “every Sunday”, and the 2 million Christmas and Easter, I’m guessing. 😉 )

    PS. The earlier version of this comment went to moderation, I’m guessing because I used a term for “dancing girl” that happyfeet put into disfavor here. We can just leave it there.

    nk (1d9030)

  4. Sounds a lot like Ms. White was calling for any woman with a Satanic pregnanct to abort their child. Maybe she thinks the Antichrist is a-borning?

    If you remember those Wiccans who were trying to mass-hex Trump, her reference to witchcraft is not whacky. But perhaps someone can explain why she’s so hepped up about the marine kingdom?

    I do think a lot of evangelicals are so focused on the perceived evils of the Democratic party that they are very willing to overlook any moral deficiencies among the Republicans. But as I understand it, Ms White is a proponent of the “Prosperity Gospel”. I tend to think the man who supposedly said “my kingdom is not of this world” might not agree with that school of thought.

    Kishnevi (27beb6)

  5. There’s an impeachment going on?

    Regarding these frothing-mouth preachers, I come back time and time again to the idea that we are crazy to hold our politicians as if they were kings or, yes, messiahs. You would think an Evangelical Christian ought to know better.

    JVW (54fd0b)

  6. Great post, and I’m not surprised Dana wrote about this horrible vision about child loss, clearly an important issue to her (and to me).

    I appreciate the point about the importance of character over partisan double standards.

    The compromises started early, and started with lying. Now it’s a complex web of lies by millions of hateful partisans. Simply asking for the truth is like sprinkling holy water on that pea soup spitting kid in the exorcist. It burns them to even imagine honest testimony.

    What this woman said did not come from a place of love. She’s made herself rich in God’s house, and guilt is fueling her burning anger.

    Dustin (b8d6d1)

  7. White also said this:

    “To say no to President Trump would be saying no to God,”

    Yeah, Jesus wept, and surely continues to weep for His creation. Especially those in the pulpit who lie and deceive and mispresent Him. Then comes judgment.

    Dana (aaddb1)

  8. BTW, is Mr Howard-Browne someone I should have heard of before? Totally unfamiliar with the name. Although I thought males with hyphenated last names was a thing only among British gentry and those pretending to be British gentry.

    Kishnevi (27beb6)

  9. I read this out loud to my wife. She thought I had a stroke.

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (5cde89)

  10. “A church which preaches the cross must itself be marked by the cross. It becomes a stumbling block to evangelism when it… lacks… a genuine love for people or scrupulous honesty in all things including promotion and finance. The church is the community of God’s people rather than an institution, and must not be identified with any particular culture, social or political system, or human ideology.”

    — The Lausanne Covenant, 1974

    JRH (14e837)

  11. Okay… that’s freaky.

    Do every President have their own fair share of cultists?

    I mean, Obama had sizable amount… did Bush have a cultist follower? Bill Clinton??

    whembly (c30c83)

  12. North Korea delenda est

    Kevin M (8ae2cb)

  13. Evangelicals are ignorant of the religion they purport to preach.

    That’s a little harsh. Sure, there are backwoods Pentacostals that would make Jesus weep, but the actual message sometimes has to be carried beyond the actual church.

    Kevin M (8ae2cb)

  14. Although I thought males with hyphenated last names was a thing only among British gentry and those pretending to be British gentry.

    Bar sinister. An acknowledged bastard. Literally.

    nk (1d9030)

  15. Kevin M @12. It’s proper English usage for plans to miscarry as well as pregnancies. But if this peroxided huckster had grounding in a genuine religion, she would not have made up this stupid, blasphemous prayer.

    nk (1d9030)

  16. What message is White carrying, Kevin M, and how does it glorify God?

    Dana (aaddb1)

  17. Nice. Pick a couple of hyperbolic people and have them stand in for an entire group.

    Wabloglog (c0df72)

  18. We didn’t pick Paula White. Trump did. She is his “spiritual advisor and Special Adviser to the White House Faith and Opportunity Initiative”.

    nk (1d9030)

  19. And that means she represents all evangelicals?

    Wabloglog (c0df72)

  20. 18. No, it means she represents the evangelical Trump humpers.

    Gryph (08c844)

  21. Al the evangelicals who support Trump.

    nk (1d9030)

  22. It’s fitting that, of all the better choices he could’ve made, our con man president picked a spiritual advisor who is a heretic, adhering to the prosperity gospels.
    I read Ephesians 6:12, several translations, and it has nothing to do with her words.
    There’s no excuse whatsoever for Mr. Howard-Browne.

    Paul Montagu (e1b5a7)

  23. I see that one can be plenty deplorable without being a Trump humper. You do realize that your lack of finesse in painting unknown people with such a broad brush will do a lot to minimize any chance of being considered a rational thinker. That will help inform my thoughts on other contributions you make going forward.

    Wabloglog (c0df72)

  24. Ms. White’s job as a spiritual advisor should have a miscarriage.

    Paul Montagu (e1b5a7)

  25. I went looking for info on Harold-Browne. He might indeed qualify for the Pentecostal snake oil salesman label

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rodney_Howard-Browne

    Kishnevi (27beb6)

  26. Oh, I don’t want to seem too blue-nosed, Wabloglog. If the lady can put on a good can-can, I can see myself tucking a little money in her garter. A girl’s gotta make a living, after all. It’s the other stuff she’s peddling that I want no part of.

    nk (1d9030)

  27. Well, it’s not every minister of the gospel who gets to marry a member of Journey.

    Kishnevi (27beb6)

  28. You do realize that your lack of finesse in painting unknown people with such a broad brush will do a lot to minimize any chance of being considered a rational thinker.

    Where is the broad-brushing in the post? Two individuals are quoted extensively, And there are general references to “other false prophets, grifters, and liars,” etc., which are not sweepingly attached to any broad group, but only to such individuals as those terms may actually, fairly describe.

    Radegunda (0e8745)

  29. Yes, how dare he speak that way. And him a Christian! Go look in America’s past, when we’re much more Christian, and you’ll find people speaking with even more passion about politics.

    And unlike Mr. French, or should I say Rev. French, I don’t spend my time telling other Christians how to behave. I’ll leave that up to God.

    rcocean (1a839e)

  30. Most of the comments here are from people unqualified to discuss evangelical Christianity. Evangelicals as a group does not include “main line” or liberal denominations who deny biblical authority. Neither does it usually include pentecostal churches, but definitely not those that preach the health and wealth gospel such as Joel Osteen.

    “Evangelicals are ignorant of the religion they purport to preach.” Says the guy who can’t spell pentecostal. I never heard of this woman, but if these quotes are accurate (which is in question given the general ignorance shown), she is not an evangelical Christian.

    Before you condemn everyone bearing a certain label, maybe you should learn who actually fits under that label. It wouldn’t be so bad if you never Trumper types weren’t so convinced that you are more intelligent and holier than any Trump supporter.

    #morons

    Michael Johnson (1d1860)

  31. There is no Evangelical Church. There are Christians who go to many different churches who consider themselves “Evangelical”. No Archbishop is going to discipline the Pastor for saying something.

    As for Rev. French, I wouldn’t take lessons on religion from a man up to his eyeballs in politics.

    rcocean (1a839e)

  32. We interrupt that which has been deployed to hurt the church in this season, that which has been deployed to hurt this nation. In the name of Jesus, forgive us for our sins. Come on, I need you guys to pray. We cancel every surprise from the witchcraft [sic] and the marine kingdom — any hex, any spell, any witchcraft, any spirit of control, any Jezebel, anything that the enemy desires through spells, through witchcraft, through any way that is manipulation, demonic manipulation. We curse that. We break it, according to the word of God.

    In the name of Jesus, we come against the marine kingdom, we come against the animal kingdom, the woman who rides upon the waters. We break the power, in the name of Jesus, and we declare that any strange winds, any strange winds that have been sent to hurt the church, sent against this nation, sent against our president, sent against myself, sent against others — we break it by the superior blood of Jesus right now. In the name of Jesus, we arrest every infirmity, affliction, fatigue, weariness, weakness, fear, sickness, any self-righteousness, any self-serving action, God.Let pride fall, let pride fall, let pride fall, let pride fall, in the name of Jesus. We command all satanic pregnancies to miscarry right now. We declare that anything that’s been conceived in satanic wombs, that it will miscarry, it will not be able to carry forth any plan of destruction, any plan of harm

    Yeah, we’re the morons.

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (5cde89)

  33. How many liberal/left Pastors from Mainline and Black Churches have said things equally absurd about Trump? I bet a lot. But we don’t hear about it. And of course, Loft-wing David French’s don’t exist. Only the Center-Right has tone police and “Mavericks” helping the other side.

    rcocean (1a839e)

  34. How many liberal/left Pastors from Mainline and Black Churches have said things equally absurd about Trump? I bet a lot. But we don’t hear about it. And of course, Loft-wing David French’s don’t exist. Only the Center-Right has tone police and “Mavericks” helping the other side.

    Then they’d also be loons. Crazy be crazy.

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (5cde89)

  35. @32. Yes there are lefty Christians who distort the gospel for their own political ends. Usually by taking social gospel to extreme ends. But I’ve never seen a President of either party exploit people’s faith nor pander to Christians so shamelessly and boastfully (“No President has been as good for evangelicals as me.”) . And I’ve never seen Christians eat it up so shamelessly either.

    JRH (52aed3)

  36. Though in a way I prefer Trump’s boastful pandering to, say, Marco Rubio’s unctuous Bible-verse tweeting. At least Trump knows we know he’s a phony. Marco actually expects us to believe him.

    JRH (52aed3)

  37. @ Michael Johnson:

    I never heard of this woman, but if these quotes are accurate (which is in question given the general ignorance shown), she is not an evangelical Christian.

    There is actual video of her saying these things in the post. I don’t know what more you could want for verification that she said this.

    Dana (aaddb1)

  38. And Michael, that you’ve never heard of this woman doesn’t help your attempted argument.

    Dana (aaddb1)

  39. It wouldn’t be so bad if you never Trumper types weren’t so convinced that you are more intelligent and holier than any Trump supporter.

    Moreover, I don’t consider myself more intelligent, and certainly not holier than Trump supporters, but even moronic, unholy goof that I am, know that calling for the miscarriage of a baby in a “satanic womb” is vile and disgusting, even in its bizarreness.

    Dana (aaddb1)

  40. 38. I’d like to state for the record that just because Trump humpers sell out their “principles” for political expediency, it does not make me more intelligent or morally upright than I would be otherwise. 😛

    Gryph (08c844)

  41. I’ve got two words for the Trump-loving moral relativists out there:

    Elmer Gantry

    Gryph (08c844)

  42. I see that one can be plenty deplorable without being a Trump humper. You do realize that your lack of finesse in painting unknown people with such a broad brush will do a lot to minimize any chance of being considered a rational thinker. That will help inform my thoughts on other contributions you make going forward.

    Wabloglog (c0df72) — 1/30/2020 @ 7:13 pm

    There is nothing wrong with calling these statements absolute evil, or mocking the shamelessly dishonest and personal attack manner with which Trump supporters have defended them and every single other outrage.

    If you define “rational thinker” as someone who prays for someone’s baby to die, that’s on you, man.

    Dustin (b8d6d1)

  43. 41 Dustin (b8d6d1) — 1/30/2020 @ 9:42 pm

    If you define “rational thinker” as someone who prays for someone’s baby to die, that’s on you, man.

    Someone needs to work on reading comprehension. I in no way defended this person, what she said or anyone who did defend her and what she said. I am calling out those who lump all Trump supporters and evangelical Christians in with her. Basically you added another proof of your inability to reason.

    For the record, this person is a loon and a charlatan. She is getting rich off the gullible and it is a sad state of affairs how people flock to people like her. But people long for snake oil and so it goes. It does not surprise me that Trump uses her as an adviser. I don’t think he is a Christian either (though my opinion does not matter to God nor affects Trumps actual state in Grace.) Trump panders to Evangelicals, which is what I expect of him. Had the Christian left embraced him and the Evangelicals repudiated him, he’d be praised by Reverend Wright and condemned by the Evangelicals. But Trump IS right about one thing. He is the guy who has done the most for Evangelical causes.

    I hate the vehicle and all that….

    WaBlogLog (c0df72)

  44. Evangelical causes? like… spreading the gospel of Jesus Christ? You think Trump is good for that?

    JRH (52aed3)

  45. “If you define “rational thinker” as someone who prays for someone’s baby to die, that’s on you, man.”

    Yeah, and for all the Trump haters and Pelosi humpers who prayed for Trump’s death, well that’s on you man.

    rcocean (1a839e)

  46. extremism and gaucheness on the Right is amplified by the media and the Left. Extremism and vulgarity from the Left and the Never Trump haters is minimized and ignored by the Media and and the Left. And nothing is more humorous than calls by non_Christians that Christians live “up to their standards”.

    Right out of the Alinsky playbook.

    rcocean (1a839e)

  47. I think expecting Christians to live up to God’s standards is from a different playbook: The Bible.

    DRJ (15874d)

  48. One of the things I used to think about the GOP base was that they cared that their leaders adhere to the teachings of Jesus. I no longer think that care about that to any meaningful degree.

    Time123 (821e96)

  49. Yeah, and for all the Trump haters and Pelosi humpers who prayed for Trump’s death, well that’s on you man.

    rcocean (1a839e) — 1/31/2020 @ 2:33 am

    Anyone wishing for Trump’s death is a fool and morally wrong, obviously.

    I can’t recall seeing that idea on this blog, and since you wrote that after quoting me, you’re clearly suggesting I’ve said it (which would be a lie).

    This just reinforces my comment you’re replying to. WA called Dana “deplorable” for this great post, not because of any of the ideas in it, but because the primary response to information that makes the Trump movement look evil is to cry ‘we’re victims and you’re a horrible person’. This is why thin skin is one of the most common descriptors of Trump supporters. You guys simply cannot accept criticism. Trump’s taught you with his tweets that it’s more effective to personally attack anyone who says something you don’t like.

    This lady wished for horrible tragedies in the personal lives of many Americans. We’re supposed to be a nation that cares about eachother. This lady represents an element of the Christian religion that is shamelessly dishonest, bizarre in its Trump support (due to his vain, greedy, and spiteful views), and of course, very very profitable. There’s a reason the blogs that sold out for Trump (instapundit/ace/etc) were the more monetized blogs before Trump even came around.

    At any rate, your characterization of my views was so dishonest that I am quite sure you will flatly deny even meaning what you plainly meant.

    I genuinely wish for your family’s health, and for every baby in your family to be born healthy and happy. You don’t owe me anything for feeling that way. I’m just being a normal person.

    Dustin (b8d6d1)

  50. And nothing is more humorous than calls by non_Christians that Christians live “up to their standards”.

    So you’re claiming Dana and other commenters like me aren’t Christians? Is there a basis for that view? Are you the grand inquisitor now? More to the point: if this is a big issue behind someone’s credibility, why do you support Donald Trump?

    Dustin (b8d6d1)

  51. Dustin (b8d6d1) — 1/30/2020 @ 9:42 pm

    If you define “rational thinker” as someone who prays for someone’s baby to die, that’s on you, man.

    This is either a willful misinterpretation in bad faith or a reading comprehension issue. Did you read @14 before posting? I understand that Ephesians 6:12 might be an opaque passage for a lot of people but it should be clear she’s not talking about a human beings baby.

    I suspect this is actually the willful misinterpretation option given the obvious attempt to imply hypocrisy with a purported Christian calling for God to kill babies.

    I notice you like to label things as evil. I don’t think that word means what you think it means.

    frosty (f27e97)

  52. Dustin (b8d6d1) — 1/31/2020 @ 5:29 am

    At any rate, your characterization of my views was so dishonest …

    Pot, I’d like you to meet kettle

    frosty (f27e97)

  53. But Trump IS right about one thing. He is the guy who has done the most for Evangelical causes.

    Cause 1: Passing off any kind of cockamamie nonsense as Christianity.
    Cause 2: Getting that collection plate filled.

    nk (1d9030)

  54. 29. Michael Johnson (1d1860) — 1/30/2020 @ 7:43 pm

    if these quotes are accurate…
    she is not an evangelical Christian.

    No true Scotsman.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman

    The following is a simplified rendition of the fallacy:[4]

    Person A: “No Scotsman puts sugar on his porridge.”
    Person B: “But my uncle Angus is a Scotsman and he puts sugar on his porridge.”
    Person A: “But no true Scotsman puts sugar on his porridge.”

    Sammy Finkelman (083d4c)

  55. Consider Christian love and forgiveness, the virtues of the Bible and the beatitudes.

    Now, think of Donald Trump.

    All of the conservative evangelicals that I know… adore the man. They love him for who he is and I have never seen political loyalty like that. It is not just because of his relatively recent political flipflop on abortion either. It’s the man himself.

    noel (4d3313)

  56. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormons) is a genuine religion with an established doctrine and traditions and liturgical texts. Their preachers don’t make it up as they go along; they don’t do snake dances; and “speaking in tongues” for them means the languages of the nations where they send their missionaries. (Which is what St. Paul meant, too, not babbling incoherently after drinking bad moonshine.)

    nk (1d9030)

  57. noel (4d3313) — 1/31/2020 @ 6:59 am

    They want a king.

    Dustin (b8d6d1)

  58. I notice you like to label things as evil. I don’t think that word means what you think it means.

    frosty (f27e97) — 1/31/2020 @ 5:34 am

    I mentioned that wishing someone’s pregnancy miscarries is evil.

    Because that’s freaking evil.

    You like to talk in circles to defend this crap. That’s also evil.

    Dustin (b8d6d1)

  59. They trust the guy with the fake university. They believe the liar. They identify with the billionaire who stiffs everybody. They admire the insulter in chief and the womanizer.

    I am not wise enough to figure it out but maybe it’s as simple as that, Dustin. “They want a king”. I hope not.

    noel (4d3313)

  60. Sammy @54, that was a very apropos reminder of the No True Scotsman fallacy. Thank you!

    nk (1d9030)

  61. The preachers identify with Trump because they’re con artists too; the congregations because they’re rubes who are taken in by con artist Trump the same way they are taken in by their con artist preachers. It’s that simple, it’s my opinion, and I’m sticking to it.

    nk (1d9030)

  62. #57 and #59 — They want someone who will take the symbolic actions that Republicans promised but did not deliver. They care more about that than budget deficit, rule of law, the Constitution. People don’t think about the king stuff or the dictator stuff. They just want a leader who uses talk radio and fox as a call to action, rather than something to be tolerated.

    This is an invitation to corruption. It is also a reckoning for people who pandered without an eye to the consequences.

    Appalled (d9fe31)

  63. nk…. “The preachers identify with Trump because they’re con artists too”.

    Well, I have watched Kenneth Copeland a couple times for as long as I could. (About 150 seconds) How anyone can believe him about anything is absolutely beyond my comprehension. He even brags that he is going to soon become a billionaire off of his position.

    Who in their right mind would donate to this “billionaire”?

    noel (4d3313)

  64. Perhaps I am ignorant, but from what I understand it is a misnomer to talk about “the Evangelical Church.” Is there one single body, like the Catholic Church, or even an association of bodies, like many Protestant denominations, to which they are all a member?

    Sounds to me like all there is is a bunch of churches and preachers all of whom claim to be Evangelicals. So that saying “the Evangelical Church” is doing something because a few nut jobs are out there is inaccurate.

    Bored Lawyer (998177)

  65. And BTW, I saw the following letter-to-the-editor in the Wall Street Journal reacting to an article they ran on the topic of Evangelical support for Trump:

    If we, in fact, are living in a post-Christian America, then as an evangelical I am back in the first century, but this time I’m allowed to vote for the emperor. I have a choice between one pagan Roman and another pagan Roman. One hates my faith, throws my fellow Christians to the lions in the Colosseum and tanks the economy. The other one leaves me alone, shows my faith some respect and makes the economy hum.

    Which pagan Roman do you think I’m going to vote for?

    Elizabeth Mulgrew

    Sounds perfectly reasonable to me. (But what do I know, I am just a Pharisee.) Anyone want to disagree.

    Bored Lawyer (998177)

  66. Dustin (b8d6d1) — 1/31/2020 @ 7:11 am

    It’s still hard to tell whether you are intentionally arguing in bad faith or this is a comprehension issue.

    I’m not defending White. My only comment about the prayer so far is to say that you are misinterpreting it.

    I’m criticizing you. You consistently misrepresent statements or positions, this being an example, and it’s hard to argue you are doing it in good faith after someone has clarified and you’ve double-down. There are reasonable criticisms of the prayer, and of White, but, for the most part, you aren’t making them.

    You like to talk in circles to defend this crap.

    To the degree that this isn’t just a load of garbage you’ve typed out, I suspect this is your cognitive dissonance kicking in. I’ve noticed that you don’t seem to process new information that is inconsistent with your bias. The result being

    That’s also evil.

    It’s not evil for me to criticize you. I understand that it’s easier to reshape that into me defending something you’ve already labeled evil so that you don’t have to respond, much less rethink your position, but it’s a dodge.

    If I say that you’ve misinterpreted the quote an honest response would be to review the quote again in light of what you’ve learned. Then either elaborate on how your interpretation is valid, be quiet or acknowledge that you may have been wrong.

    If you want to have that conversation I’m willing to explain why this quote isn’t about real human beings.

    frosty (f27e97)

  67. (But what do I know, I am just a Pharisee.) Anyone want to disagree.

    I think lawyers are more like Scribes, Bored Lawyer.

    nk (1d9030)

  68. Sounds to me like all there is is a bunch of churches and preachers all of whom claim to be Evangelicals. So that saying “the Evangelical Church” is doing something because a few nut jobs are out there is inaccurate.

    Your statement is true, but doesn’t apply to this conversation. Paula White isn’t some minor character or unknown kook. As the post lays out shes a influential leader with an official position. People who self identify with her.

    Time123 (b0628d)

  69. @67 — I was talking about my religious beliefs, not my profession.

    Bored Lawyer (998177)

  70. Bored Lawyer (998177) — 1/31/2020 @ 8:01 am

    I personally wouldn’t say “the Evangelical Church” for the reasons you’ve described. I might say Evangelicals. This is similar to, but a little bit different from, the notion of nondenominational churches. It’s possible to use the word evangelical, with a small e, and then you might be using it in the same sense someone would use charismatic, i.e. as a trait that runs through multiple denominations to different degrees as opposed to an altar and pulpit fellowship type distinction.

    I’d also be careful with “Catholic Church”. There is the Roman Catholic Church, various Orthodox Catholic Churches, etc and there is “one, holy, catholic and apostolic” church. Obviously, not everything makes that distinction but I think it’s useful to at least understand that there might be a difference between big C and little c.

    frosty (f27e97)

  71. Time123 (b0628d) — 1/31/2020 @ 8:09 am

    I’m not sure that everyone who would self identify as Evangelical would also identify with White. I’m certain people who identify as evangelical wouldn’t.

    frosty (f27e97)

  72. extremism and gaucheness on the Right is amplified by the media and the Left. Extremism and vulgarity from the Left and the Never Trump haters is minimized and ignored by the Media and and the Left. And nothing is more humorous than calls by non_Christians that Christians live “up to their standards”.

    Right out of the Alinsky playbook.

    rcocean (1a839e) — 1/31/2020 @ 2:36 am

    I am baptized in the Methodist church. Seeing someone preach in the name of Jesus that ‘satanic pregnancy should miscarry’ offends me for obvious reasons. I think it would offend you if it supporting it wasn’t part of supporting Trump.

    Even when i don’t believe a person of faith is motivated by something real (LDS for example), i can respect the spirit that calls them to have faith and those parts of their faith that are good in their own right.

    I can excuse when they want different policy outcomes that I don’t think are justified by the my faith out of respect for theirs. Dry counties in places with a southern baptist tradition.

    I can be disappointed when they don’t live up the own ideals even when I don’t share them. (coffee and alcohol for instance)

    If their behavior and words start to look nothing like the teachings they claim to follow I can lose that respect, and after a point I may conclude that they don’t really believe what they’re saying and that they’re using faith as a excuse for things they want for other reasons.

    That’s where I’m at with the current GOP base. I don’t think they care about the teachings of Jesus. I think they’ve turned it into just another cultural totem.

    Time123 (b87ded)

  73. Time123 (b0628d) — 1/31/2020 @ 8:09 am

    I’m not sure that everyone who would self identify as Evangelical would also identify with White. I’m certain people who identify as evangelical wouldn’t.

    frosty (f27e97) — 1/31/2020 @ 8:22 am

    Agreed, do you have any examples of leaders in movement taking that position?

    Time123 (b0628d)

  74. 62 Appalled (d9fe31) — 1/31/2020 @ 7:34 am

    They care more about that than budget deficit, rule of law, the Constitution.

    First, you create a false choice. There is no “Donald Trump or the Constitutional candidate.” I keep seeing this fallacy over and over. In 2016 there was Donald Trump or Hillary. Now there is Donald Trump or some other Dem. Your choice is to support the horse you got or abandon him and let the other one win.

    Second, everyone has their “big issue.” Just because YOUR big issue doesn’t align with someone else’s does not mean they are evil or irrational for valuing their issue over yours. If your big issue is abortion (thinking that killing innocent babies is the epitome of evil), you might prefer ANY candidate to those who don’t support that position. So your choice might be, the pro gun candidate or the pro-life candidate. Choose one, but you can’t have both. That is the nature of our system. A candidate provides a package of positions on about 100 things, and you only have a few candidates to choose from. Almost no candidate will be right on all 100 things for you, so you pick the best package, and often there is one or two key items that out-weigh the other 98. That does not mean you don’t care about the other things. It isn’t a case of “if you don’t pick the strong gun rights candidate, then you are gun confiscating nut case.” But that is basically the argument everyone uses.

    I am not trying to single you out. Your point is just an easily referenced example of that fallacious logic. I could point to dozens of commentators for the same thing.

    In our zeal to bash Trump (or Trump haters, or Trump humpers or Bernie Bros, or whatever), we demand that others either perfectly align with our values or dismiss them as unintelligent rubes or evil anti-Americans or whatever. It basically makes us all Don Lemons.

    Pardon me for not playing along.

    WaBlogLog (c0df72)

  75. it is a misnomer to talk about “the Evangelical Church.” Is there one single body

    I’ve seen this talking point repeated a few times, that you aren’t allowed to criticize the movement because it’s just a bunch of con artists who aren’t under some pope.

    Not sure what the relevance of that point is. These people still cheered and prayed for miscarried babies of those who don’t support Dear Leader. By all means let’s stipulate there are a huge number of Christians who are both noncatholic and don’t agree that Trump critics should suffer horribly. In fact, those are the nevertrumpers, by and large.

    Dustin (b8d6d1)

  76. Time123 (b87ded) — 1/31/2020 @ 8:23 am

    Seeing someone preach in the name of Jesus that ‘satanic pregnancy should miscarry’ offends me for obvious reasons.

    I’m not offended for the obvious reasons I think you are referring to. I interpret her comments in the sense of an aborted attempt. She references

    any spirit of control, any Jezebel, anything that the enemy desires

    and

    it will not be able to carry forth any plan of destruction, any plan of harm

    When criticized she referenced Eph 6:12 which is most definitely not about human babies.

    I think this is a poor choice of words for prayer and it struck me as odd. I also think there are reasons to criticize the prayer itself and there’s one a statement I do think is concerning but no one seems to have noticed.

    But if your reason is someone shouldn’t pray for Jesus to cause human babies to miscarry I think you’re doing the flip side of what you’re accusing rcocean of, namely being offended because it’s part of criticizing Trump.

    frosty (f27e97)

  77. Against the Marine Kingdom, the Animal Kingdom. That bit, and the witchcraft stream, are just as bizarre as her satanic miscarriage nonsense.

    I don’t think she’s part of an actual religious sect, cult sure, give it a few centuries and a few million disciples and then we can start to call her thing religion. Prosperity gospel appears to be much more of a pyramid service than a worship service.

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (5cde89)

  78. Time123 (b0628d) — 1/31/2020 @ 8:25 am

    This phrase

    As the post lays out shes a influential leader with an official position. People who self identify with her.

    is ambiguous.

    I read “[p]eople who” as people like me and not specifically leaders. I personally know a lot of people who would identify as Evangelicals and who completely denounce the prosperity gospel stuff that’s going on. Shifting to leaders isn’t something I’m interested in. That ends up just being discussions about who qualifies as a leader, are you defending the leader, etc.

    I read the underlying argument in the thread as unless individual Evangelicals actively denounce White, or self identify with someone else who does, they are implicitly agreeing, i.e. unless you take my side and all that it entails you are taking White’s side and all that it entails. A person can say they are Evangelical, potentially not self-identifying with anyone you’d consider a leader, potentially challenge and be offended by the very notion of self-identifying with a leader, and that doesn’t automatically make them have to agree with everything White says.

    frosty (f27e97)

  79. Time123 (b0628d) — 1/31/2020 @ 8:25 am

    do you have any examples of leaders in movement taking that position?

    frosty (f27e97) — 1/31/2020 @ 9:18 am

    I noticed that I might have driven by your question. No, I don’t have any leaders I want to offer up.

    frosty (f27e97)

  80. Frosty, you have good point about the difference between what leaders say and what everyone actually thinks. However, when I see the people to speak for BLM saying horrible things about the police. Not just the random twitter followers but the people who organize the events and speak at the events, I have to conclude that people in BLM don’t like the police.

    Same logic applies here.

    Time123 (b87ded)

  81. Prosperity Gospel

    An aberrant theology that teaches God rewards faith—and hefty tithing—with financial blessings, the prosperity gospel was closely associated with prominent 1980s televangelists Jimmy Swaggart and Jim and Tammy Bakker, and is part and parcel of many of today’s charismatic movements in the Global South. Orthodox Christians wary of prosperity doctrine found a friend in Senator Chuck Grassley, who in 2008 began a thorough vetting of the tax-exempt status of six prominent “health and wealth” leaders, including Kenneth Copeland, Bishop Eddie Long, and Paula White. https://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/topics/p/prosperity-gospel/

    Is now you know why Orange Man get into mudslinging with Christianity Today little while back.

    nk (1d9030)

  82. Time123 (b87ded) — 1/31/2020 @ 10:38 am

    I wouldn’t disagree with the BLM linkage. BLM took a well-defined position. I wouldn’t, however, associate everyone who speaks out against police violence against African Americans as BLM, for example.

    Evangelicals are a much less well-defined group. For example, these prosperity gospels guys exist within the Evangelical definition but it’s a subset. If you look at wikipedia you’ll see how broad the term can be. I’m not saying wikipedia is correct, just that it’s not a clearly delimited group like BLM.

    frosty (f27e97)

  83. @ WaBlogLog, #74:

    In 2016 there was Donald Trump or Hillary. Now there is Donald Trump or some other Dem.

    Funny. I recall Gary Johnson being on the ballot in my state. Wasn’t he in yours?

    You criticize someone for “creat[ing] a false choice,” then right afterward, you create a false choice yourself.

    Is your irony-meter broken?

    Demosthenes (7fae81)

  84. . If you look at wikipedia you’ll see how broad the term can be. I’m not saying wikipedia is correct, just that it’s not a clearly delimited group like BLM.

    I was told years ago that Pentecostals and Evangelicals are not at all the same thing, because of the former group’s emphasis on Holy Spirit sort of things. Browne is a Pentecostal, so in that sense he isn’t an Evangelical. White is harder to pin down, beyond her Prosperity Gospel, but she named TD Jakes as her mentor. He is a Pentecostal, but belongs to a form of Pentecostalism called Oneness, which rejects the classical forms of Trinitarianism.

    Kishnevi (9605e1)

  85. I just think the headline is misleading. A better headline might be “”Two Prominent Evangelicals Have Lost Their Way in the Age of Trump.” Then don’t capitalise evangelical. All churches consider themselves to be evangelical; those who call themselves that emphasise the spread of the Gospel, preaching, and Biblical inerrancy. It’s rather like criticising “monotheistic Jews” and then criticising “Monotheists.”

    Golden Eagle (8e3954)

  86. Golden Eagle (8e3954) — 2/2/2020 @ 8:50 am

    I agree with your comment. Thank you for posting it.

    felipe (023cc9)


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