Patterico's Pontifications

1/20/2020

Poll: 51% of Americans Believe Trump Should be Removed from Office

Filed under: General — Patterico @ 3:49 pm



Tough to see how someone wins re-election with polls like this:

About half of Americans say the Senate should vote to convict President Donald Trump and remove him from office in the upcoming impeachment trial (51%), according to a new CNN poll conducted by SSRS, while 45% say the Senate should vote against conviction and removal.

Nearly seven in 10 (69%) say that upcoming trial should feature testimony from new witnesses who did not testify in the House impeachment inquiry. And as Democrats in the Senate seek to persuade at least four Republican senators to join them on votes over allowing witnesses in the trial, the Republican rank and file are divided on the question: 48% say they want new witnesses, while 44% say they do not.

I’m out of the prediction business, but that just doesn’t seem good for Corruption Inc.

200 Responses to “Poll: 51% of Americans Believe Trump Should be Removed from Office”

  1. Against whom?

    Kevin M (19357e)

  2. Look, I would prefer any mainstream Republican, up to and including the moronic Kasich, over Trump. But that is not the choice I will get. It will be an inept, boorish and venal guy who is mostly not working against my interests, versus someone who is and might be competent at doing so.

    Kevin M (19357e)

  3. It is at times like these that the party system sucks.

    Kevin M (19357e)

  4. A poll I would like to see is:

    How many Republicans would prefer that Trump decide not to run for re-election.

    Kevin M (19357e)

  5. It is at times like these that the party system sucks.

    Kevin M (19357e) — 1/20/2020 @ 4:05 pm

    For sure.

    How many Republicans would prefer that Trump decide not to run for re-election.

    Kevin M (19357e) — 1/20/2020 @ 4:07 pm

    It says a lot that there isn’t a strong primary challenge, and that the GOP isn’t serious about impeachment.

    Everyone who can cheat will cheat at this election. A lot of very evil folks will have a lot of say in how it goes. Our kids deserve better from us than supporting these bumper sticker fools pounding their fists and tweeting and lying. If the GOP wanted to, it could give us better, but it won’t.

    Dustin (b8d6d1)

  6. Kevin’s first comment is right on target. He only has to persuade voters the Democrats are no better than he is.

    From the CNN link

    But as the impeachment trial looms, Trump’s approval rating overall holds in exactly the same place as December: 43% approve, while 53% disapprove.

    So not as many people who disapprove of him want him removed, and the number of people who don’t want him removed is more than the number of people who approve of his handling of his job.

    Kishnevi (8b0353)

  7. Poll: 51% of Americans Believe Trump Should be Removed from Office

    Expect disappointment: in another “poll” taken on Election Day back in November,2016, nearly 3 million more voters believed HRC should have been placed in office as President– but the other dude was declared the winner.

    People lie to pollsters. They had Trump losing to HRC– until he won.

    Mitch just released proposed impeachment rules– and the kvetching is over it going into the midnight hours, Eastern time- which tells you how myopic and insular the Beltway Bunch truly are; a helluva lot of Americans live in the Central, Mountain and Pacific time zones so it’ll be more or less prime time TeeVee for much of the country.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  8. Undercounting the Russian vote, as usual.

    #FakePolls

    Dave (1bb933)

  9. RCP seems to show that more polls a “No” though…
    https://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/other/public_approval_of_the_impeachment_and_removal_of_president_trump-6957.html

    As to your answer that he’d have a tough time to win his re-election? I guess that would depend on who’s the (D) candidate. If it’s Biden, I’d say it’s a 50/50 tossup. If it’s anyone else, I think Trump wins handily.

    whembly (91455b)

  10. Comforting for Trumpsters to know The Dersh was for abuse of power as an impeachable offense in 1998 before he was against it in 2020. Harvard be damned; surely a graduate of the Lindsey Graham School of Law. But then, The Dersh is working for the Constitution, not the President’s legal team– and he is sooo good on the TeeVee; rivalling Rudy.

    What. A. Show.

    https://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/us_5e255a6ac5b674e44b9ad92e?ncid=APPLENEWS00001

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  11. DCSCA:

    Cocaine Mitch wants a snore-fest. He’ll get it.

    Appalled (1a17de)

  12. Four days of opening arguments. Good grief!

    nk (dbc370)

  13. @11. A lot of Americans are awake west of EST– all the way out to Hawaii and up to Alaska. But the snore-fest will fit nicely w/wintery Washington.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  14. As mentioned to DRJ on another thread, it’s interesting, as a non-lawyer- to observe how complex it is for ‘lawyers’ to apply their experience to an impeachment trial that is less a matter strict legalities, as in a conventional courtroom trial, to what is more a political trial, where conventional courtroom procedures and basics they’re comfortable with may not always strictly apply. At times it’s almost like watching fish trying to prepare to swim through air currents.

    For example, it can perplex busy Americans– casual observers– to understand how somebody like Senate Majority Leader McConnell [or Graham for that matter] can state publicly he’s not an objective juror/judge and coordinating w/t White House going into this then piously swear under oath he is. It makes a mockery of oath-taking; most Americans would figure they’d get bumped from a jury pool for saying that.

    Or Dershowitz insisting he’s not working for the Trump defense team but ‘the Constitution.’ Sure would like to know when a few pieces of parchment talked to him, hired him– and if he’s getting paid for his services in paperclips or staples.

    It’s supposed to be serious business but increasingly it all just comes off as disingenuous if not farcical to the folks busy driving nails and schools buses– or on jury duty.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  15. If your premise that most Americans want to be entertained is true, than a lot of people will be upset that their favorite TV shows are being pre-empted for a DC gabfest.

    Kishnevi (8b0353)

  16. It’s true. A poll said so.

    I remember back in 2010. Scott Walker was elected Governor of Wisconsin, along with a majority Republicans in the house and Senate. Across the Nation, lots of Republicans elected. According the left, all an aberration. They conducted a poll. First week of December. It showed lots of these Republicans were upside down on their favorable/unfavorable. They hadn’t hadn’t even been sworn in yet, and the media commissioned POLLS, showed the Republicans, already out of favor. A complete reversal of the real poll, taken just weeks prior. Walker went on to defeat a stupid a recall vote, and then get re-elected.

    In this poll, I don’t believe 50% have any opinion.

    What ever it takes to keep a narrative alive, and get yourself to sleep at night.

    iowan2 (9c8856)

  17. @5. The basic problem with this guy goes back to the beginning: his childhood, the need to send him off to military school, multiple trophy wives and tawdry affairs; gaudy real estate holdings, sleazy business deals, flashy casinos, clashing w/TeeVee network execs and NYC mayors; the excesses, the bankruptcies… the Roy-Cohn-to-the-mattresses-win-at-any-cost-attitude; the common thread is he is wholly undisciplined. Which is why the Congress should have established guard rails by initiating censure proceedings against him the day after Helsinki.

    But no. Now it’s too late. If Dead Daddy Fred, military school, Wall St. bankers, TV execs, wives and a porn star spanking him w/a rolled up copy of Forbes couldn’t discipline him, the Congresscrittters surely won’t either. He’s gonna beat the rap[s.]

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  18. @15. A televised trial akin to ‘who shot JR’ for homebound viewers in winter should get some good ratings.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  19. @15. Postscript; BTW, remember ‘wall-to-wall’ OJ did quite well pre-empting entertainment programming; ratings up there w/t Gulf War and the moon landing.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  20. The valid sample is 100 people, we all know who they are, and we’ll get the results very soon, along with Trump’s declaration of the invasion of Denmark, and Bill Barr’s announcement that Pelosi has been indicted for misappropriation of public money.

    Donald J. Trump Retweeted
    Oliver McGee PhD MBA
    ‏Verified account
    @OliverMcGee
    Jan 17
    Retweet @POTUS’ PROMISES MADE, PROMISES KEPT on TRADE!

    As @SpeakerPelosi spent $5K on Gold Pens to sign an Impeachment Hoax, @realDonaldTrump used a $1.99 Sharpie Pen to sign a $200B China Trade Deal, adding to 7M JOBS the @WhiteHouse created in 3 years that @BarackObama didn’t!

    nk (dbc370)

  21. Trump has one thing going for him. Those democrats. I wouldn’t even mind Trump so much if we had a good alternative. As it is I feel like he represents a lack of realistic solutions to all political problems.

    Dustin (b8d6d1)

  22. That will get under Dave’s skin only for the fact that Dr.(?) McGee is a Buckeye.

    urbanleftbehind (ac3ca8)

  23. @20. … @realDonaldTrump used a $1.99 Sharpie Pen to sign a $200B China Trade Deal, adding to 7M JOBS the @WhiteHouse created in 3 years that @BarackObama didn’t!

    $1.99? TrumpWaste!! They’re two for .99 at the- 99 Cent Store! And don’t forget inking up that NOAA weather map, Donald!

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  24. I find myself in agreement with Kevin M. If I set aside my personal dislike of Trump, I have to admit he’s done a lot of things I favor–choosing good Supreme Court judges along with a plethora of other federal judges, deregulation, opening up federal land for drilling, Keystone pipeline, enforcing the public charge law for immigrants, prison reform, cutting the tax on businesses to more align with international norms.

    Trump was my last choice of the 17 Republicans seeking the nomination in 2016, and I had a hard time pulling the lever for him in the general election. As I look back, however, I doubt if ANY of the other 16 could have beaten Hillary in the general election. Trump, with his unorthodox, professional-wrestling style of speaking, won over a lot of rubes. (I have in mind that guy in Ohio who got in Ted Cruz’s face and spouted all of Trump’s talking points.)

    It’s a real conundrum for me. I know he’s a bad guy, but he’s done many a good thing.

    norcal (42c8d0)

  25. @12.Four days of opening arguments. Good grief!

    See #14. See what I mean, Charlie Brown?! 😉

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  26. It was Indiana, norcal. I’m tempted to say same sheit, but that guy’s attitude was reminiscent of Joe the Plumber from Toledo who hassled Obama in 2008.

    urbanleftbehind (ac3ca8)

  27. Oh, that’s right! Indiana. Thanks for the correction, urbanleftbehind.

    norcal (42c8d0)

  28. I backed Cruz, then, and I won’t turn on him now. But he really missed his calling as a professor, or possibly a judge. A patient, detailed, quiet lecture is only for people who have control of their audience. Not drunks at a campaign stop, and not #FakeNewsMedia dog-food salesmen looking for 30-second sound bites to squeeze in between commercials.

    nk (dbc370)

  29. We care what people think, except when it’s an election.

    Munroe (7de8a8)

  30. The sad thing is I do agree with Norcal to some extent. I actually think Trump’s appointments are better than most of the other GOP candidates would have been. I want to think Hillary was no match for my favorite candidate, but what do I know. Well on our way to President Camacho.

    Dustin (b8d6d1)

  31. We care what people think, except when it’s an election.

    Munroe (7de8a8) — 1/20/2020 @ 7:23 pm

    No one is above the law. Sorry! Even Barack Obama!

    Dustin (b8d6d1)

  32. We care what people think, except when it’s an election.

    Except when you are the GOP, and a prime component of your agenda is to keep people who probably vote for Demicrats from voting in the first place.

    Kishnevi (8b0353)

  33. It’s a real conundrum for me. I know he’s a bad guy, but he’s done many a good thing.

    Even if I disagree with that, even if he has done few GOOD things, he had done far fewer irrevokeable BAD things. His Democrat opponents compete for “who will be worse than the others.”

    Consider that if Trump loses the Dems will hold the House and may well take the Senate (23 GOP seats are up versus 12 Democrats). Given that and a Warren or Sanders win and we’ll have that “Medicare for All” and medicine will be unalterably a government monopoly. Add in all the “free” stuff they are pandering with and we’ll be just another Euro-weenie state where everyone is on the government teat.

    And Warren, at least, shows no signs of being incompetent. That’s bad in an opponent.

    Kevin M (19357e)

  34. And sure, it would be better if Trump were to retire and let someone smart take over to “complete his revolution”, but he won’t and the Party and its officeholders are cowering in fear due to the immense popular support that Trump has.

    He might not win, but anyone who “usurps” the nomination will SURELY lose.

    Kevin M (19357e)

  35. @33 “And Warren, at least, shows no signs of being incompetent. That’s bad in an opponent.”

    The Cherokee DNA test was an unforced error. I think Trump would eat her alive. She’s so fake and flimsy. But people have trouble seeing through her. (“She fights.” same sh*tty logic).

    JRH (52aed3)

  36. “Except when you are the GOP, and a prime component of your agenda is to keep people who probably vote for Demicrats from voting in the first place.”
    Kishnevi (8b0353) — 1/20/2020 @ 7:45 pm

    It’s a shame when dead people get disenfranchised.

    Munroe (dd6b64)

  37. He might not win, but anyone who “usurps” the nomination will SURELY lose.

    Kevin M (19357e) — 1/20/2020 @ 8:05 pm

    I agree. Not sure how much I care, though. The problem is a few folks like me just don’t care that much about the GOP’s success. You mentioned before the dems are competing for worst so there’s really no comparison. I know. But the GOP is sufficiently bad at my priorities, fiscal, foreign, ethical, cultural*, that I just don’t think it matters. We’re driving towards the same cliffs.

    Only by disrupting this system can we stop driving towards the cliff. That’s what really matters. For some reason we are falling into some kind of herd mentality on some of these looming issues.

    Dustin (b8d6d1)

  38. * I don’t think our politicians should shape our culture or lead our ideals. But when Trump has so much fun lying to us, bragging about groping women, pays off prostitutes, and is all around such a pathetic person, he shapes the culture. His defenders love lying, boast about goofy things generally, consider Trump critics to be ‘cucked’, and hate minorities a lot more than they did a few years ago. After 16 years of Bush, then Obama being a family man, it’s a shame the GOP couldn’t keep that up. The cultural decline matters a lot to me.

    Dustin (b8d6d1)

  39. “After 16 years of Bush, then Obama being a family man, it’s a shame the GOP couldn’t keep that up. The cultural decline matters a lot to me.”
    Dustin (b8d6d1) — 1/20/2020 @ 9:16 pm

    https://amp.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/nov/16/george-hw-bush-accused-groping-woman-while-president

    Munroe (dd6b64)

  40. 2. Look, I would prefer any mainstream Republican, up to and including the moronic Kasich, over Trump…

    Sir Willard of Romney Marsh said on camera he will vote for impeachment witnesses and within minutes Laura Ingraham verbally bayonetted him on nat’l cable TeeVee– and to a lesser extent, Collins, Murkowski and Alexander. ‘Moderately’ stray from the herd and you’ll be crucified by the angels harping on God’s chosen cable news TeeVee network.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  41. https://amp.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/nov/16/george-hw-bush-accused-groping-woman-while-president

    Munroe (dd6b64) — 1/20/2020 @ 9:21 pm

    Trump has harmed American culture by openly using prostitutes, accommodating Epstein, and committing sexual assault because he brags about it. It’s the same complaint we had about Bill CLinton, only obviously Trump is a lot trashier.

    If Bush 41 did something that wasn’t known for decades, shame on him, though you’d need to prove it actually happened first, and I’m not sure anyone really wants to hear you rant about Bush 41 conspiracies because he was president like 400 years ago.

    Dustin (b8d6d1)

  42. Only by disrupting this system can we stop driving towards the cliff. That’s what really matters. For some reason we are falling into some kind of herd mentality on some of these looming issues.

    Dustin (b8d6d1) — 1/20/2020 @ 9:10 pm

    Tell that to Venezuela. You can vote for socialism. You can only shoot your way out of it.

    NJRob (4d595c)

  43. I sure am glad none of you people hold an elected office.
    Thank You, Jesus.

    mg (8cbc69)

  44. Ok, Boomer.

    nk (dbc370)

  45. No problem, Zeus.

    mg (8cbc69)

  46. NJRob,

    I agree that voting for a socialist would be a terrible idea. But Trump has called for universal healthcare, and he definitely displays many of the problems and sympathies of a dictator (he even praises them).

    Like I said, if the democrats offered some kind of good option, the GOP’s failure to be an option wouldn’t frustrate me. But Trump represents that there is no real alternative.

    One of the promises of Trump’s supporters that I found appealing was that he would be that disruptive element that I referenced above, but he’s really something of a gift to socialists. Imagine Bernie Sanders using the executive order the way Trump has, simply funding whatever he wants on specious grounds, attacking dissenting media harshly, and even engaging in criminal activity with intermediaries working with dictatorships to skew American politics. I don’t like the precedents Trump has set.

    It’s pretty simple though. You don’t need any grand tests or debates. Big government = huge deficit. Trump’s as conservative as Obama.

    Dustin (85808e)

  47. It’s a bad sign for the left that after four years of the MSM and their sycophants on the internet relentlessly attacking Trump day after day,the number (for a CNN poll) is only 51%.

    DN (095be6)

  48. Even if a socialist gets elected, it won’t be Venezuela, which has a weak and malleable constitution.
    Bernie won’t be able to turn Congress from bicameral to unicameral, like what Chavez did.
    Bernie won’t be able to nationalize companies that he doesn’t like.
    Bernie won’t be able to pack the Supreme Court with a dozen additional justices who are completely in the bag for the socialist president.
    Bernie won’t be able to institute wage-and-price controls over entire industries.

    Paul Montagu (e1b5a7)

  49. when mr. trump, who is the president and quite possibly did not have mr. jeffrey epstein killed, had both houses of congress he could have made five new states from each and every red state and ruled the country forever

    but he did not because he is constitutional that way

    nk (dbc370)

  50. Jonah has a little history on executive privilege, because you know the subject is going to come up in the trial:

    So, what are the circumstances when the president’s interest in confidentiality is outweighed by the need for disclosure? When Congress or the courts are fulfilling their own core constitutional functions.
    Which brings us back to George Washington. Recall that Washington insisted the House had no business looking at confidential documents pertaining to the Jay Treaty. But, ever the constitutional stickler, Washington let the Senate see them. Washington recognized the Senate’s right to the materials due to that chamber’s constitutional role in ratifying treaties.
    More relevant to current events, Washington conceded another point: The House would have every right to look at the documents if it were conducting an impeachment inquiry. “It does not occur,” he wrote, “that the inspection of the papers asked for can be relative to any purpose under the cognizance of the House of Representatives except that of an impeachment, which the resolution has not expressed.”
    There was unanimity in Washington’s Cabinet on this point. That’s kind of a big deal given that the Washington administration was literally chock-a-block with Founding Fathers, as anyone who has seen Hamilton the musical would recall. Treasury Secretary Oliver Wolcott (a signatory of the Declaration of Independence) wrote that “when an Impeachment is proposed & a formal enquiry instituted,” Congress can get whatever it asks for.
    In other words, executive privilege had its limits, and impeachment was definitely one of them. As law professors Jean Galbraith and Michel Paradis note in this useful primer, “If a president’s diplomatic communications might have evidence of impeachable conduct, Congress is entitled to see them.”
    The president’s legal team is correct when they say that the president’s power and privileges are strongest in matters related to foreign policy. But the best response to this is that Congress’ ability to overpower presidential privilege is strongest when it’s performing a core constitutional function in general and impeachment in particular. Again, as a general rule, powers enunciated in the Constitution outrank powers merely implied by the Constitution.

    Paul Montagu (e1b5a7)

  51. norcal (42c8d0) — 1/20/2020 @ 6:49 pm

    Don’t forget the new Title X rules.

    frosty (f27e97)

  52. Trump will only get re-elected if enough people look at the D Candidate and say: “We don’t want any part of that”. People forget that Muskie was leading Nixon in ’72, and then the D’s went with McGovern and Nixon won in a landslide. Bush might have lost in 2004, except the D’s went with Kerry, a terrible choice.

    The R’s need to get lucky.

    rcocean (1a839e)

  53. I can’t see America electing Bernie or Sanders. But Biden, yeah, he might fool some people – the one’s who are ALWAYS fooled by fake moderates.

    rcocean (1a839e)

  54. Mitt Romney wants to grand-stand and pose as the “New Maverick”. Plus, he wants to draw this farce out, so he can hurt Trump. He’s a petty, jealous vindictive man.

    rcocean (1a839e)

  55. it’s just not fair, mr. rcocean

    it’s because mr. trump is orange, you know

    they would not be doing this to a white president

    nk (1d9030)

  56. Kasich is NOT a mainstream republican, unless you think supporting a D for President is “Mainstream”. during his last year in office, he was siding with the D’s in Ohio over the R’s. that’s not “mainstream” either.

    R’s are always Dumb. Jeffords, Chaffee, Spector, and Crist all turned D when given a chance. Before they did they were labeled “pragmatic” and “Centrist” LOL.

    rcocean (1a839e)

  57. @55 – The American people like Orange man. The elite doesn’t.

    rcocean (1a839e)

  58. 12. nk (dbc370) — 1/20/2020 @ 5:13 pm

    Four days of opening arguments. Good grief!

    Followed by one day off (Sunday) and 3 days of Senators passing along written questions to Chief Justice Roberts who will read them aloud. It will be 16 huors worth, split among 3 days.

    Preceded by one day of debate about the rules (Today, Tuesday, starting at 1 pm.)

    NPR will broadcast it it live starting at 12 noon and it will be streamed on wnyc.org among other places. The proposed rules don’t even automatically admit the House record into the record, (although Senators will get copies of everything. That will require a vote. McConnell says this is not a divergence from the 1999 rules since there is are different kinds of records here.

    Senator Schumer will propose any number of amendments to the rules, and almost certainly lose all the votes, since McConnell counted up the votes he had, and what Republicans needed what in order to agree, and changed his rules accordingly, before proposing his rules last night shortly before 6:30 pm. EST.

    After eight days of arguing and questioning lawyers and no fact witnesses, the Senate will then vote on the general question of whether they need any new evidence.

    If yes, they will then vote separately on each witness, or new documents (the Democrats have narrowed it down to three specific requests for documents.)

    When they’re done, they will then have two days of closing arguments.

    Eight House Republicans have been quietly added to Trump’s team.

    Sammy Finkelman (083d4c)

  59. One of the #TalkingHeadMedia characterized it as “shortened to two days per side”. As a Boomer, I generally can even, but when I saw that I just couldn’t.

    nk (1d9030)

  60. I know 3 things.
    -The evidence shows Trump did what he’s accused of and no counter evidence has been presented.
    -The current republican party mostly doesn’t care.
    -Trump is a clown that can’t be trusted.

    Time123 (53ef45)

  61. 50. Washington conceded another point: The House would have every right to look at the documents if it were conducting an impeachment inquiry. “It does not occur,” he wrote, “that the inspection of the papers asked for can be relative to any purpose under the cognizance of the House of Representatives except that of an impeachment, which the resolution has not expressed.”

    First. you have 1 President’s opinion. Obama, a Constitutional law professor, held an entirely different opinion. Also, in this case he speaks on treaties. Something the Senate holds constitutional power over. Note, Obama, refused to offer all treaties to the Senate to confirm. Just for the reasons, that making public, details of the treaty would expose the Presidents incompetence. Those treaties never required the United States honor them, for just that reason

    Second. What is the constitutional elements required, defining the difference between Congresses Article I sect. 1 powers of oversight, from Congress’s Article I, sect 2, powers of impeachment?

    iowan2 (9c8856)

  62. What would be interesting to get is the transcript of Donald Trump’s phone call with Vladimir Putin on May 3, 2019, around the time he turned against Ukraine. I wonder if anyone will even propose subpoenaing that.

    It wasn’t just Putin, it was also Hungary’s Prime Minister Viktor Orban:

    https://www.nytimes.com/2019/10/22/us/politics/trump-ukraine-orban.html

    Mr. Trump’s conversation with Mr. Orban on May 13 exposed him to a harsh indictment of Ukraine at a time when his personal lawyer was pressing the new government in Kiev to provide damaging information about Democrats. Mr. Trump’s suspicious view of Ukraine set the stage for events that led to the impeachment inquiry against him.

    You may not need any records. John Bolton could testify about that, too.

    Th significance of May 13th is that’s when the orders came down (witthout explanation) that Vice President Mike Pence was NOT to attend Volodyrmyr Zelensky’s inauguration as president. Secrarary of State Mike Pompeo (probably) put together as high level a delegation as he could.

    Pence could not have attended except at the end of May – since he wasn’t going, the inauguration was pushed back up to May 20.

    And as for the investigations, Giuliani had already gotten that in March and he was not encountering great resistance from Zelensky either, although, as we can see in the July 25 call, he was trying to push that into more legitimate territory and away from off the wall accusations – Burisma, not the allegation of Biden stopping an investigation and if the U.S. has information they’ll be gkad to look into it.

    Sammy Finkelman (083d4c)

  63. The Washington Post
    @washingtonpost
    ·
    Opinion: Thanks to Trump, we are living in a world of sleaze https://wapo.st/3aodzT8
    __ _

    Sean Spicier
    @sean_spicier
    You guys kicked this thing off with Russian hookers and urine

    __ _

    I hope those polls are by the same folks that had Maddow claiming Pantsuit was even gonna take South Carolina.
    _

    harkin (d6cfee)

  64. “We care what people think, except when it’s an election.”

    Except when you are the GOP, and a prime component of your agenda is to keep people who probably vote for Demicrats from voting in the first place.

    Or when you’re a state GOP leader and you want to make sure there isn’t an election at all.

    Radegunda (39c35f)

  65. Ballot harvesting.

    NJRob (4d595c)

  66. First. you have 1 President’s opinion.

    Um, there’s more than that. There was Washington’s cabinet and US v. Nixon.

    Paul Montagu (e1b5a7)

  67. 66. Yes, those are very different circumstances. You’re ignoring a lot.

    iowan2 (9c8856)

  68. Democrats have been camping out in front of TV cameras today. Dems have lost the case on the fact, and, as was always the intent, working to drive opinion, in contrast to facts in evidence.

    (strange they are upset about process?)

    iowan2 (9c8856)

  69. Yes, those are very different circumstances.

    Um, no, not different. The bottom line is that a core constitutional function of Congress trumps an executive’s asserted privilege, and that’s been acknowledged from Washington to Nixon to Clinton and should extend to Trump.

    Paul Montagu (e1b5a7)

  70. More on impeachment superseding executive privilege, aside from George Washington.

    Washington and his advisers concluded that the president had the constitutional authority to withhold the documents unless the House opened a formal impeachment inquiry. And a number of other presidents who have asserted their constitutional authority to withhold documents from Congress at times have also recognized that an impeachment inquiry would be different. President James K. Polk probably stated it most clearly, opining that in the exercise of the impeachment power, the House could “penetrate into the most secret recesses of the Executive Departments … command the attendance of any and every agent of the Government, and compel them to produce all papers, public or private, official or unofficial.” And President Theodore Roosevelt once ordered an official to turn over to him all the papers demanded by Congress, and then informed a senator that “the only way the Senate or the committee can get those papers now is through my impeachment.”
    Two other past statements bear particular mention. Attorney General Robert Jackson’s memorandum on the confidentiality of law-enforcement files remains the seminal document on which the executive branch relies to withhold such information from Congress. But at the end of the analysis, Jackson noted, “Where the public interest has seemed to justify it, information as to particular situations has been supplied to congressional committees.” And he then identified one such situation: “Pertinent information would be supplied in impeachment proceedings … for the good of the administration of justice.”
    Nixon, not one to cede executive authority lightly, argued through his personal counsel that he did not have to provide information subpoenaed by a Senate committee. But he acknowledged that a request from the House in an impeachment inquiry would be different. He reasoned that the president “is answerable in only one constitutional proceeding . . . the deliberate action of the whole Congress under the Impeachment Clause.” And although he initially suggested he may attempt to assert executive privilege in the Watergate investigation, before impeachment proceedings had begun, he eventually recognized it was not available.

    Paul Montagu (e1b5a7)

  71. 70. So what elements are required to determine if the House is using its Article I Sec. 2 powers?

    iowan2 (9c8856)

  72. They’re about to start the game so howzabout singin’ the national anthem, Mitch:

    ‘Trumpland! Trumpland! Uber Alles!…”

    “Play ball!”

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  73. Walrus Gumbo is such a tease: the oafish neocon is one of the only ex-Trumpeters who desperately craves a future in the GOP [Hit the silk, Nikki, bailout!] And it’s Trump’s GOP now. He will never testify against a sitting Republican president; he has a book to peddle.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  74. Only by disrupting this system can we stop driving towards the cliff. That’s what really matters. For some reason we are falling into some kind of herd mentality on some of these looming issues.

    What form would this take?

    A centrist independent? That might work if the contest was Trump v Sanders, but not at all well if the Dems nominate a Biden or Bloomberg.

    An extra-constitutional event? (Military coup, civil war, assassination spree, etc)

    Kevin M (19357e)

  75. So what elements are required to determine if the House is using its Article I Sec. 2 powers?

    An impeachment inquiry was announced on 9/24/2019, and the House “shall have the sole Power of Impeachment,” per Article I, Section 2. Since there are no House rules on starting an inquiry and no requirement for a vote to start an inquiry, it can officially start with a press conference, which is what happened.

    Paul Montagu (e1b5a7)

  76. The R’s need to get lucky.

    Nixon wasn’t ‘lucky;’ remember the ‘Canuck Letter’? He rigged the game by hiring some ‘Plumbers’ who put Donald Segretti to work.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  77. But the GOP is sufficiently bad at my priorities, fiscal, foreign, ethical, cultural*

    Trump has succeeded in several areas. That you don’t read about it much is because the MSM doesn’t like to bring his successes to the fore.

    The rate of illegal immigration is way down, mainly because the phony “asylum” system-gaming has stopped abruptly. No longer are we permitting asylum claimants to disappear into the cities and fail to appear for their hearings. The hearings-first policy had not only resulted in few admissions, but it has also decreased the volume of claims. This despite active opposition from political judges.

    China has agreed to respect intellectual property, particularly patents. Their willingness to enforce will need to be tested but the era where US companies had to compete with their own ripped-off inventions may soon be over. I know that some don’t think that Trump had this in mind with his tariffs, but the rank-and-file trade negotiators (and most US corporations) were quite insistent.

    The impact and ever-rising costs of Obamacare has been tamed by ending some easily-gamed subsidies and therefore reducing costs for those who pay full price. Ending Obamacare, or at least reforming it to where it was not a welfare trap would have been better, but that error lies with the US Congress and mostly with the House Freedom Caucus which blocked everything that had a chance in the Senate.

    ISIS is pretty much dead. Obama couldn’t get that done.

    The stock market is on an historic bull run. This is a measure of fiscal policy that no theory can touch.

    The 9th Circuit is now 50-50 politically. Who ever expected that to happen?

    So, not a total failure, and not one of these things would have happened under Hillary. Trump is all kinds of assh0le, but at least he’s OUR assh0le.

    Kevin M (19357e)

  78. ‘Moderately’ stray from the herd and you’ll be crucified by the angels harping on God’s chosen cable news TeeVee network.

    Romney doesn’t give a frack. His political position is solid.
    Murkowski got primaried, lost, and then won as a WRITE-IN candidate. “Do your worst.”
    Collins is in her last term.
    Alexander might be vulnerable, or he might not. Anyone who’s going to vote for the Democrat isn’t watching Laura Ingraham.

    Kevin M (19357e)

  79. CBS NBC ABC and I don’t know who else are broadcasting he proceedings, or talking among themselves. Chief Justice John Roberts maybe three minutes ago swore in Senator James Inhofe (R-Oklahoma) who missed the wearing in of the rest of the Senators on Thursday (because he had to atend to some kind of an emergency in Oklahoma they said.)

    Sammy Finkelman (083d4c)

  80. Bernie won’t be able to turn Congress from bicameral to unicameral, like what Chavez did.
    Bernie won’t be able to nationalize companies that he doesn’t like.
    Bernie won’t be able to pack the Supreme Court with a dozen additional justices who are completely in the bag for the socialist president.
    Bernie won’t be able to institute wage-and-price controls over entire industries.

    Why not? Nixon imposed wage and price controls on EVERYONE. With a majority in both houses (likely with a Bernie win) he can pack the court and effectively nationalize anything. What do you think “Medicare-for-All” does to the medical profession?

    Sure the Constitution ought to prevent some of this, but who’s enforcing it?

    Kevin M (19357e)

  81. 60. Time123 (53ef45) — 1/21/2020 @ 8:16 am

    -The evidence shows Trump did what he’s accused of and no counter evidence has been presented.

    It doesn’t. It doesn’t. It shows the opposite.

    Unless it’s the mere fact of withholding aid to Ukraine. Which is not an impeachment count by itself. It is illegal, but carries no penalties except court injunction, wrt of mandamus or things like that..

    Trump’s requests for investigations are not properly described and are dressed up as “cheating” in a election by inviting “foreign interference.”

    Sammy Finkelman (083d4c)

  82. -The current republican party mostly doesn’t care.

    Or is afraid to.

    Because what we really see here is Vladimir Putin’s disinformation making its way into the White House and affecting U.S. foreign policy.

    But the Democrats don’t care about that, because it makes Donald Trump into a fool and they want him to be an evil mastermind.

    Everyone involved is not interested in the truth, and it doesn’t speak well for the “adversary system” as a means of getting at the truth.

    If any Senators are interested in getting at the truth, they’re not getting enough help, and they are probably not looking at the acts closely enough.

    Sammy Finkelman (083d4c)

  83. -Trump is a clown

    The Democrats are not saying he is a clown. That wouldn’t be bad enough, and it’s not grounds for impeachment. The New York Daily News called him a clown – but that was before the 2016 election.

    Sammy Finkelman (083d4c)

  84. clown that can’t be trusted

    I dn’t know. That applies to alot of other presidents. Of course they have to be really well known liars to get impeached: Nixon, Clinton and Trump.

    But compared to some other presidents, Trump’s lies are transparent, and you can pretty much tell when he’s lying and when he is not, and what his lies are. You can live with that.

    Sammy Finkelman (083d4c)

  85. Jonah has a little history on executive privilege, because you know the subject is going to come up in the trial

    Paul, the problem is that this is a justicable issue, which has not been decided as yet. You may well be right that a court WOULD decide that executive privilege does not ever apply to an impeachment inquiry, but no such decision has ever been reached. Only one narrow case that I can think of (the Watergate tapes).

    Instead, the House has simply ASSERTED their position and brought Trump’s legally-defensible disagreement up as an impeachment charge. I expect significant Dem defections on this charge as it is not only weak, it’s the wrong place to argue it.

    Kevin M (19357e)

  86. Bernie won’t be able to pack the Supreme Court with a dozen additional justices who are completely in the bag for the socialist president.

    He’s on record against that, unlike Elizabeth Warren and Pete Buttigieg.

    Bernie won’t be able to institute wage-and-price controls over entire industries.

    Kevin M (19357e) — 1/21/2020 @ 10:25 am

    Why not? Nixon imposed wage and price controls on EVERYONE.

    He was only able to do that because Congress passed alaw over his veto, gving him authority to do that. I think on March 31, 1971,

    By Augist 15, 1971 Nixon took advantage of that.

    But this idea is not popular anymore as a remedy to inflation, and we don’t have inflation.

    Except in medicine, housing and education.

    What do you think “Medicare-for-All” does to the medical profession?

    All people not in a union lose.

    Sammy Finkelman (083d4c)

  87. Paul,

    I do believe that the Senate can command any testimony, subject to the 5th Amendment right. Not only can’t executive privilege hold in an impeachment TRIAL, but I see no constitutional basis for asserting that lawyer-client or religious confidentiality should hold, either (other than current counsel).

    The problem with allowing the House to breach privilege with an “impeachment inquiry” is that this poses no particular barrier to the House. A “magic word” test is no test.

    Kevin M (19357e)

  88. 78. Kevin M (19357e) — 1/21/2020 @ 10:20 am

    Collins is in her last term.
    Alexander might be vulnerable, or he might not. Anyone who’s going to vote for the Democrat isn’t watching Laura Ingraham.

    It’s Alexander who’s in his last term. Collins is running for re-election in Maine. Partisan Democrats are mostly out to get her anyway because of her vote for Kavanaugh.

    Doug Jones of Alabama may very well vote to acquit on the obstruction of Congress count and may take several other Democrats with him. He’s a former prosecutor.

    Sammy Finkelman (083d4c)

  89. Bush might have lost in 2004, except the D’s went with Kerry, a terrible choice.

    Hillary would have won handily in 2004. But she (and most other first-tier candidates) looked at his post 9-11 approval (>80%) and decided to stay out. By the time that his approval started dropping in 2003-2004, it was too late.

    Kevin M (19357e)

  90. Sammy, you’re right. I was sure she decided to retire. Ooops. Still, she’ll win handily in Maine.

    Kevin M (19357e)

  91. But the GOP is sufficiently bad at my priorities, fiscal, foreign, ethical, cultural*

    Trump has succeeded in several areas. That you don’t read about it much is because the MSM doesn’t like to bring his successes to the fore.

    Well me personally? I don’t actually have much exposure to MSM. I cancelled my newspaper some time back. Don’t have cable and haven’t watched broadcast TV in so long I genuinely do not know if the antenna is still connected to my TV. I listen to KLBJ (Austin talk radio) on commutes and read pretty much all POVs on the internet.

    My perspective is that Trump indeed has done a few things, but they are invariably unilateral. An EO or, at best, a lasting appointment. Some of those are a big deal, no doubt, and I gave him credit on appointments earlier in this thread. The EOs are not that big a deal if Bernie or Biden crosses them out.

    I agree stocks are doing well, and have been, generally since the last big crash. That’s how it works, but I don’t see how Trump helped. It seems like he’s harmed trade by creating instability and playing games with trade.

    Ending Obamacare, or at least reforming it to where it was not a welfare trap would have been better, but that error lies with the US Congress and mostly with the House Freedom Caucus which blocked everything that had a chance in the Senate.

    You could use a similar point for my favorite metric: the deficit. But I disagree. This was a major Trump promise. Getting this done was his responsibility and his fans (not you) should explain why this broken promise doesn’t matter as much as whatever ancillary nonsense he did do. Trump backed this bold promise (and his budget ones) on his ability to make deals. He is terrible at making deals. The error lies in how he conducts himself (such that no one will make a deal with him unless there’s a crime involved).

    Dustin (85808e)

  92. Sammy, the assertion that Bernie CAN’T do something has nothing to do with his supporting it. And with Congress in Dem hands (as it would be), laws can get passed to “give” him powers.

    Nixon did not want wage-and price controls. He VETOED the law and was overridden. Then he used it anyway (incidentally spurring the creation of the Libertarian Party). So, even if he doesn’t want to pack the court, he’d still fill the seats.

    Kevin M (19357e)

  93. What form would this take?

    A centrist independent? That might work if the contest was Trump v Sanders, but not at all well if the Dems nominate a Biden or Bloomberg.

    An extra-constitutional event? (Military coup, civil war, assassination spree, etc)

    Kevin M (19357e) — 1/21/2020 @ 9:57 am

    I don’t think we’ll have any of those events. Americans are fat and happy. For all the seriousness of our problems, we have Hulu and McDonalds. Fighting to the death isn’t part of the program. Ideally no one is going to get assassinated. That would obviously make things much worse. And the military doesn’t work like that. Most troops don’t even know much about senior military leadership and our military is too stratified for it to ever do that.

    Alas, I worry that the way this will happen is when the right gets so silly that the left’s sillies bcome electable, and after the pendulum swings to and fro, enough of us get tired of the damage that we demand some sort of reform to our basic election system. Primaries should have run offs, for example. The winner of huge primaries where the most extreme guy gets loyal support of a minority has led both parties to be dysfunctional. If it were possible to remove the advantages the established parties have, or otherwise legislatively damage the 2 party system, I’d love it. But who knows.

    My point isn’t that this change is realistic. It’s that Trump does not represent a solution to the problems I consider most important.

    Dustin (85808e)

  94. Kasich is NOT a mainstream republican

    He was at one time. A strong Reagan ally in Congress. Then again Trump was a Democrat at one time, and he’s only a mainstream Republican now by reason of conquest.

    Kevin M (19357e)

  95. My point isn’t that this change is realistic. It’s that Trump does not represent a solution to the problems I consider most important.

    There is a possibility that the problems you consider most important were not the problems that a previously silent majority considered most important.

    Populism doesn’t just happen; only when the mainstream parties ignore the needs of many voters does this kind of eruption occur. After all they’d MUCH prefer to spend their free time swilling beer and watching TV than getting off their duffs an politicking.

    Neither party had the interests of the non-college working man at heart. One party was transferring their manufacturing jobs to China and the other party was bringing in low-expectation tradesmen from Mexico. Actual employment among 30-50yo white American men was down to 70% down from 90% in the 1960s. Much of the unemployment was long-term.

    You’d have to be pretty disaffected, and see few alternatives, to vote for someone like Trump. BUt they did.

    Kevin M (19357e)

  96. A strong Reagan ally in Congress.

    Reagan has been out of office THIRTY ONE YEARS and a day.

    And dead nearly 16 years;. welcome to the 21st century.

    “A long time ago… in a galaxy far, far, away…’ – ‘Star Wars’ 1977

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  97. Adam Schiff (I didn;t expect that) is arguing against the proposed Senate rules. He’s better than he usually is. He must be imagining his speech collected in a video or a book of great trial speeches.

    There’s not too much inaccurate there, although he still almost at some kind of connection between the July 25 telephone call and the July 25 message from OMB to keep the hold closely held (the connection is that Trump did not reverse himself and they were waiting.)

    Schiff managed to reconcile “overwhelming evidence” with the need for more evidence.

    His biggest complaint is that the rules do not provide for subpoenas – but then he says in his own speech that the material in many cases is ready which means they could comply in one day.

    He said what president’s counsel call opening statements would in fact be the whole trial this way.

    He said Trump is indeed disputing facts.

    “If the framers intended for the House” to have a trial and the senate to hear an appeal based o the cold record they would have done that but that;s not what they did.

    Sammy Finkelman (083d4c)

  98. Memo to Schiff: Ukraine is not an “ally” of the United States.

    No vote- or soup, for you!

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  99. Nixon imposed wage and price controls on EVERYONE.

    He did, but under the authority of Economic Stabilization Act of 1970, which is now a dead letter. It took a TARP bill for Obama to nationalize GM.
    Sure, the executive can try some dictatorial maneuvers, but there are two other branches to hold him in check. This is a good reason why Congress needs to reclaim some of the power it has ceded to the executive over the years.

    Paul Montagu (e1b5a7)

  100. 93. Kevin M (19357e) — 1/21/2020 @ 10:47 am

    So, even if he doesn’t want to pack the court, he’d still fill the seats.

    Yes, but iut;s not so easy to pass Congress. It wouldn’t be so easy even with Elizabeth Warren as president and lobbying for it. Not every Democrat will vote for it.

    Sammy Finkelman (083d4c)

  101. 99. DCSCA (797bc0) — 1/21/2020 @ 11:04 am

    Memo to Schiff: Ukraine is not an “ally” of the United States.

    He’s been saying that for awhile. It’s not a stretch beyond what;s been said in other cases. Any country receiving military aid ca be called an ally.

    Worse is maybe saying bluntly that Ukraine is at war with Russia.

    Sammy Finkelman (083d4c)

  102. He;s implying that what Trump withheld could affect the course of the war, or of negotiating to end it.

    Schiff is distinguishing between the rules for the Clinton trial and these rules: They actually received documents before. And witnesses had been heard from before in that case. And in this case the reason (many) witnesses were not heard from before is his fault. He told them not to testify. And the problem with testimony in 1999 was decorum issues which don;t apply here.

    He’s really aiming for being included in a anthology of great speeches.

    And he doesn’t want the president to introduce selective documents (whats’s that? The July 25 call?)

    Sammy Finkelman (083d4c)

  103. “And with that, Nr Chief Justice, I yield back:

    Now …57 minutes for the president.

    Sammy Finkelman (083d4c)

  104. Paul, the problem is that this is a justicable issue, which has not been decided as yet.

    I’m not sure how, Kevin. Either “sole power” means something or it doesn’t, and the House and Senate have their own brands of sole power. I don’t see George Washington or Polk or TR differentiating between the House and Senate on the matter of executive privilege. US v. Nixon was decided to allow the House to subpoena records.

    Paul Montagu (e1b5a7)

  105. There is a possibility that the problems you consider most important were not the problems that a previously silent majority considered most important.

    I’d say that’s much more than a possibility. No one really cares about the debt issue or the general scope of the federal government. They care about perceived enemies that politicians encourage you to run to the government to protect them from. Brown people tend to show up a lot in these perceptions lately. Muslim ban, Mexico building the wall, imminent salami attack, etc etc. People REALLY care about the other team losing, because they are the real cheaters, etc.

    Balancing the budget simply doesn’t rate.

    But time will probably change that, unfortunately too late.

    Dustin (85808e)

  106. 75. A news conference? And your “source” is Lawfare?

    So some Freshman congress critter decides they are going to IMPEACH THE MOM TRUCKER! Thats it? So do you have a, like, a constitutional source for your assertion? There is a wide cavernous gap between congressional oversight and Impeachment. A Judge would struggle to discern between the two. You tell me there is no difference. The constitution separates the two powers distinctly.

    iowan2 (9c8856)

  107. Jay sekloe said “the Ukraine” like President Trump in fact did. He spoke first – he sounded like he was winging it. Then he turned it over to White House counsel Cippilione (sp?) C. went into how we got here. And sounded almost angry (BTW, Trump likes that)

    False accusations were made against the president. The president declassified and released the transcript. Then false allegations were made about the first call. (news to me) Trump released that.
    Then Schiff read a false version of the July 25 call to the American public.

    The process wasn’t usual. The Judiciary Committee wasn’t involved. Proceedings took place in the House basement. The president’s lawyers weren’t allowed to cross examine witnesses. And in fact till today’s day they don’t know everything that went on in the SCIF.

    They subpoenaed former deputy National Security Adviser Charles Kupperman. Kupperman went to court and asked a judge what to do, considering Trump’s claim of executive privilege and the fact this involved matters of national security. The House withdrew its subpoena and promised not to reinstate it. Now they are asking the Senate to do it.

    (A bit out of order here)

    The framers worst nightmare was a partisan impeachment and that’s what we have here.

    And they waited 33 days. They want to lecture the Senate about their rules. He’s putting the Senate on trial (I think he said) The only people not on trial is his committee.

    And in what court would a lawyer go in and say that his case was overwhelming but that he’s not ready to go?

    Also: People may not notice, it’s just a little clause in the articles of impeachment but what they’re asking the Senate to do is to remove Donald Trump’s name from the ballot in the upcoming election.

    Sammy Finkelman (083d4c)

  108. @78. Alexander is retiring, Kevin.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  109. McConnell by the way changed his resolution so that the opening argumens take place pver3 days, not 2 – not 2-12 hour days but 3 7=8-hours day. So they will end at 9 pm EST (8 Central 6 Pacific)

    Sammy Finkelman (083d4c)

  110. Trump’s lies are transparent, and you can pretty much tell when he’s lying and when he is not, and what his lies are

    He’s *always* lying. He lies about big stuff like why we killed Sulimani. He lies about little stuff like if Alabama is still in the hurricane path.

    Time123 (66d88c)

  111. Sen Schumer offered an amendment to subpoena everything the White House had about everything connected with this – he named them all. It included what they had about Hunter Biden.

    He missed, or avoided, the May 3 telephone call woth Putin and the meeting with Viktor Orban.

    McConnell called a 15-minute recess.

    Sammy Finkelman (083d4c)

  112. Goldberg, French and the rest of their ‘little buddies’ are marooned; every week there’s another comedic episode of ’em desperately trying to escape Gilligan’s Island.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  113. 106. Dustin (85808e) — 1/21/2020 @ 11:41 am

    They care about perceived enemies that politicians encourage you to run to the government to protect them from.

    It’s more like their opponents are going to change your life for the worse. Not usually true. Sanders of saing or his peole are saying Biden wants to reduce social security payments.

    Brown people tend to show up a lot in these perceptions lately. Muslim ban, Mexico building the wall, imminent salami attack, etc etc.

    And Brookln Borough presdent Eric Adams has outsiders are moving in and driving up rents. Outsiders from Ohio. New York belongs to those who were here first. But if they are good neighbors – translation vote for incumbents – its OK.

    Sammy Finkelman (083d4c)

  114. They can keep rents low, and prevent strangers from moving into black neighborhoods, if they bring back crime. The new bail laws have that as their purpose, make no mistake about it.

    Sammy Finkelman (083d4c)

  115. He did, but under the authority of Economic Stabilization Act of 1970, which is now a dead letter. It was very much alive in 1970 w/some rippling, real world consequences. Amidst the phasing in of it all, my old man was paid in dollars which were transferred from NY to London where it was exchanged into sterling. If memory serves, for a month or two the Brits restricted the amount of dollars they’d let into the UK and Dad couldn’t access his salary to cover living expenses. Recall it was pretty tight there for several weeks going into that autumn.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  116. That you don’t read about it much is because the MSM doesn’t like to bring his successes to the fore

    .
    Trump defenders like to believe that those who don’t love Trump are falling for “media narratives” — aka Fake News — while they themselves have a superior ability to see through it all and find the Truth.

    Radegunda (39c35f)

  117. My God.
    Hasn’t anybody advised Zoe Lofgren about how this neat little gadget called television projects her image to an audience?!?!

    The Fashions-By-Salvation-Army-Dress-like-An-Unmade-Bed-look is not the way to appear on color HDTV projected into millions of homes, dear.

    And for God’s Sake: see a hairdresser.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  118. A news conference? And your “source” is Lawfare?

    Ad hominem in lieu of substance noted, iowan. They’re a group of legal experts, with right-of-center and left-of-center contributors, and I’ll further note your lack of legal rationale in response.

    Paul Montagu (e1b5a7)

  119. 119. Waiting for your cite that a news conference declares the House is conducting impeachment hearings. Is the house still doing Impeachment inquires? When does it stop? How would a judge make that determination? Does any member of the house suffice to make that declaration? If not, why not. Please show your work.

    iowan2 (9c8856)

  120. How to tell this trial is a political proceeding instead of a legal proceeding: Cipillone lied freely on several subjects, including that Republicans weren’t in the SCIF for depositions. An officer of the court doesn’t have the luxury of misrepresenting established facts and would face contempt in a court of law.

    Paul Montagu (e1b5a7)

  121. Waiting for your cite that a news conference declares the House is conducting impeachment hearings.

    Um, already did that, iowan. Blue is a pretty color.
    Far as I know, the House hasn’t closed its impeachment inquiry, but even if it has been closed, the House still has oversight responsibilities into the executive branch.

    Paul Montagu (e1b5a7)

  122. “Also: People may not notice, it’s just a little clause in the articles of impeachment but what they’re asking the Senate to do is to remove Donald Trump’s name from the ballot in the upcoming election.”

    Do the articles say anything about a hold on judicial appointments? They’re clamoring to put those on hold too.
    _

    So strange watching people cheering on the attempt at nullifying an election over this puppet show.

    harkin (d6cfee)

  123. “How to tell this trial is a political proceeding instead of a legal proceeding:”
    Paul Montagu (e1b5a7) — 1/21/2020 @ 12:55 pm

    A legal proceeding would’ve already yielded a summary judgment.

    Munroe (dd6b64)

  124. DCSCA (797bc0) — 1/21/2020 @ 12:38 pm

    My God.

    Hasn’t anybody advised Zoe Lofgren about how this neat little gadget called television projects her image to an audience?!?!

    She’s in her 70s now. She doesn’t care. She’s not Nancy Pelosi or Jane Fonda.

    It’s interesting – in the presentations, even at this stage, they can play video. And also show slides.

    She s[et lot of time arguing that evidence exists.

    Also that documents should be obtained BEFORE a trial starts. Also said that the House had subpoenaed documents (so this is not like the Kupperman witness case?)

    One problem I see: She said lawyer client privilege can be broken in the case of misconduct. But what if the question misconduct is the very question that is in dispute?

    She even said Trump was not presenting his side of the story. And she played Gordon Sondland saying none of us thought we were doing anything improper (that was in terms of being rogue – he wasn’t hiding what he was doing from 3rd level or 2nd level officials, but still this is Sondland saying he didn’t see anything improper in petitioning or even trying to force Ukraine into doing this)

    Sammy Finkelman (083d4c)

  125. 121. Paul Montagu (e1b5a7) — 1/21/2020 @ 12:55 pm

    How to tell this trial is a political proceeding instead of a legal proceeding: Cipillone lied freely on several subjects, including that Republicans weren’t in the SCIF for depositions.

    I noticed that. Of course there was a big banging-on-the-door-in front-of=cameras type protest arranged by some Republican members of Congress that first was mentioned in the White House. Republicans who were members of 3 committees were allowed in and even ask questions (but not supposed to talk about it)

    Adam Schiff said he wouldn’t accuse him of lying but he was mistaken. Another time he used the word “wrong.” Point goes to the House managers.

    I think misrepresentations take place in many ordinary legal proceedings.

    Sammy Finkelman (083d4c)

  126. 123. I think that refers to disqualification, if convicted, from holding any federal office

    Sammy Finkelman (083d4c)

  127. They’re voting on McConnell’s motion to table Schumer’s amendment to the rules (to issue subpoenas to the White House for numerous documents.)

    By roll call. There was no other vote.

    Sammy Finkelman (083d4c)

  128. All 10o present; it takes an impeachment to get Rubio to show up for work.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  129. Motion to table Schumer amendment passed 53-47. A straight party line vote.

    Sammy Finkelman (083d4c)

  130. 129. Rubio?

    Sanders Warren Klobuchar and Bennett.

    Sammy Finkelman (083d4c)

  131. “So strange watching people cheering on the attempt at nullifying an election over this puppet show.”

    Yeah, apparently some people haven’t gotten over the Democrats winning the House in 2018.

    Davethulhu (fab944)

  132. 132. And a large percentage of people forgot that impeachment doesn’t “nullify” anything; Trump’s handpicked(?) vice president would take over for him.

    Gryph (08c844)

  133. Unreal: CNN has NINE peanuts in their gallery.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  134. @121. See #14. Fishes swimming through air currents.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  135. 122.Far as I know, the House hasn’t closed its impeachment inquiry, but even if it has been closed, the House still has oversight responsibilities into the executive branch.

    As far as you know. So, as an active astute news consuming individual, you have no idea what the House is doing, nor, does anyone else, including an Article III judge making rulings about whether a request the forcing of testimony is being sought under Sec 1 powers or Sec 2 powers. Your contention they are interchangable, yet they are defined in two distinctly different ways in the constitution.

    As came out in todays proceedings, The House, and I’m forced to assume, doing impeachment inquiry, subpoenaed the testimony of Charles Kupperman. When Kupperman went to a judge and asked a judge to determine exactly who had the power to control his actions, Schiff immediately pulled the subpoena, and promised the Court he would not seek to re-submit in the future. A strange action by Schiff for such settled black letter law. It would seem, Schiff knows full well, an Article III judge would ask which of the constitutions function the testimony was sought to fullfill? Sect. 1 powers or Sect. 2 powers? A question Schiff was loathe to defend in front of a Judge, and lose the illusion the house is not required to vote to move to impeachment inquiry.

    iowan2 (9c8856)

  136. “Yeah, apparently some people haven’t gotten over the Democrats winning the House in 2018.”
    Davethulhu (fab944) — 1/21/2020 @ 2:05 pm

    Evidenced by all those congressmen threatened with impeachment.

    Munroe (dd6b64)

  137. Val Demings is somewhat inarticulate for this; not-ready-for-prime-time. But she dresses better for television than Lofgren.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  138. 137. Congressweasels aren’t subject to impeachment. They are subject to recall by the voters of their respective states/districts.

    Gryph (08c844)

  139. 133. Gryph (08c844) — 1/21/2020 @ 2:10 pm

    And a large percentage of people forgot that impeachment doesn’t “nullify” anything; Trump’s handpicked(?) vice president would take over for him.

    That’s maybe why White House counsel Pat Cipollone preferred the formulation of removing Donald Trump’s name from the ballot.

    This historic impeachment trial is making counsel on both sides a little bit mre honest than might otherwise be the case.

    Sammy Finkelman (083d4c)

  140. cnn and the ny times should be paying for the free advertising

    mg (8cbc69)

  141. Gryph (08c844) — 1/21/2020 @ 2:54 pm

    You’re right. They can also be expelled. Neither that or any recalls are happening, so I guess we got over it.

    Munroe (dd6b64)

  142. 136. iowan2 (9c8856) — 1/21/2020 @ 2:28 pm

    As came out in todays proceedings, The House, and I’m forced to assume, doing impeachment inquiry, subpoenaed the testimony of Charles Kupperman. When Kupperman went to a judge and asked a judge to determine exactly who had the power to control his actions, Schiff immediately pulled the subpoena,

    Not immediately. It took awhile. I knew this whole story, except for the detail about the promise not to re-submit the subpoena, aand mentioned this on the blog. Kupperman and Bolton had the same lawyer. Bolton indicated he would follow the ruling. The first thing that the House Intelligence Committee did was <i. ? NOT subpoena John Bolton. Then Mick Mulvaney wanted to join in the lawsuit, and Kupperman and Bolton’s lawyer protested. So Mulvaney withdrew his motion to join in the lawsuit. And said he would file another similar one on his own. Then President Trump indicated he didn’t want Nulvaney to file such a lawsuit, and Mulvaney then said he would not.

    Here’s one story about this:

    https://www.marketwatch.com/story/mulvaney-faces-challenge-in-his-bid-to-join-impeachment-lawsuit-2019-11-11

    Checking, I think the House withdrew its subpoena even before Mulvaney asked to join in the lawsuit, but the judge did not dismiss the case as moot until the end of December. after the House Committee just pulled its subpoena, Schiff claimed Kupperman had an obligation to testify even without a subpoena, (!) and he also claimed it would take too long for this to make its way through the courts.

    This is one of those things that are known to people who have followed this agreat deal, but wold be new to people hearing it just now.

    Here is a story from two weeks ago:

    https://www.nytimes.com/2020/01/06/us/politics/bolton-testify-impeachment-trial.html

    Mr. Bolton had previously said he would abide by the ruling of a federal judge in a separate lawsuit by his former deputy, Charles M. Kupperman, over whether to appear as requested in the House impeachment inquiry or comply with a White House directive to stay silent. But House Democrats withdrew their subpoena for Mr. Kupperman, arguing that they did not have time to await the outcome of a potentially yearslong lawsuit before moving to impeach Mr. Trump.

    The judge ruled late last month that the issue was moot, which Mr. Bolton said left him no choice but to make his own decision.

    Now I suppose it’s possible he was trying to avoid a negative ruling. It’s also possible that, by that time, they realized that Kupperman’s, and especially Bolton’s, testimony would probably not be helpful to their case.

    Sammy Finkelman (083d4c)

  143. “They can also be expelled. Neither that or any recalls are happening, so I guess we got over it.”

    Or, work with me here, or maybe the House Democrats legitimately think the President is a crook. This is not a controversial opinion, rather, how much of a crook is he?

    Davethulhu (fab944)

  144. In some crazy non-impeachment news:

    The Amazon billionaire Jeff Bezos had his mobile phone “hacked” in 2018 after receiving a WhatsApp message that had apparently been sent from the personal account of the crown prince of Saudi Arabia, sources have told the Guardian.

    https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2020/jan/21/amazon-boss-jeff-bezoss-phone-hacked-by-saudi-crown-prince

    I wonder who else has been WhatsApping with MBS?

    Davethulhu (fab944)

  145. In a local poll between Hillary and Burnee Hillary is despised by 86% of those who voted.
    I only voted once.

    mg (8cbc69)

  146. 138. DCSCA (797bc0) — 1/21/2020 @ 2:46 pm

    Val Demings is somewhat inarticulate for this; not-ready-for-prime-time. But she dresses better for television than Lofgren.

    The three big legacy networks are no longer broadcasting the proceedings – it’s time for the local news.

    I caught a bit in radio. She is evidently arguing for another amendment to the rules – thsi time asking to siboesn State Deartmemt emails and other records (the first one was for white House records)

    By the way Zoe Lofgren said that, in this whole matter ZDpnald Trump had never invoked executive privilege.

    I heard Val Demings said Trump was asking for investigations that everyone in this chamber knew were bogus. Yes, but the question is: Did Donald Trump know? She also said, as the articles of Impeachment charge, that he only wanted an <i< announcement of investigations (and this proved corrupt motive.

    Now at the end of the frst week of September, through September 11, an announcement was what ZGordon sondland was shooting for, but he did this without any pre-approval by Donald Trump. He was uessing that it might e enough to get Trump to lift the hold.

    And if Trump wanted just an announcement, Giuliani had gotten that in March from the old Prosecutor General, Yuriy Lutsenko. I suppose that could be why the whistleblower incorrectly had it that in the July 25 phone call, Trump said he would like Zelensky to retain Lutsenko.

    In the call we see that Trump wanted to get to the bottom of things, and not investigations or announcements of them.

    Oh and another thing: The House managers had it as reason to subpoena the White House records that two eople who listened to the call said Zelensky mentioned the name Burisma. How does that make it worse for Donald Trump? The call record has Zelensky mentioning “the company that you mentioned”

    https://www.whitehouse.gov/wp-content/uploads/2019/09/Unclassified09.2019.pdf

    There are dots indicating some lost words from Trump but not from Zelensky.

    Sammy Finkelman (083d4c)

  147. You could use a similar point for my favorite metric: the deficit. But I disagree. This was a major Trump promise.

    Dustin, you cannot simultaneously claim that Trump is a liar, cheat and thief AND THEN complain he doesn’t fulfill his promises.

    We knew he was a liar going in, and we knew his claims about the deficit (heck, the entire debt) were lies from the outset and STILL he got enough votes to win the election.

    The last President who did anything about the deficit was Bill Clinton (with substantial prodding from Newt Gingrich). Everyone after him lied, not just Trump.

    Kevin M (19357e)

  148. Balancing the budget simply doesn’t rate.

    But time will probably change that, unfortunately too late.

    The debt as a proportion of GDP was higher in 1946 and somehow we muddled through. Debt to GDP was 121% in 1946, falling to 31% in 1974. This isn’t to say that Trump is an Eisenhower, or even a Truman, but the situation is not impossible yet.

    Kevin M (19357e)

  149. Question: Who is likely to add more to the debt? Trump the Incompetent Muddle or Warren the Competent Marxist?

    Kevin M (19357e)

  150. Now another motion to subpoena. For OMB?

    The House manager speaking now called Ukraine a “partner”

    It’s Schiff who calls it an ally at war from which the president withheld aid in an attempt to cheat in an election.

    Sammy Finkelman (083d4c)

  151. US v. Nixon was decided to allow the House to subpoena records.

    Particular, named records, which had been created by Nixon himself and to which privilege did not apply. I may or may not agree with your reading of the Constitution but the fact is that the COURTS have not ruled either way.

    And I repeat, allowing the House to breach privilege by a magic-word clause (“we’re looking at impeachment”) is at best suspect. Or do the courts have to decide if it’s really impeachment-impeachment. There is no credible bright line in your model.

    The House has the sole power of impeachment, but it does give them any special powers in that regard.

    Kevin M (19357e)

  152. “Who is likely to add more to the debt? Trump the Incompetent Muddle or Warren the Competent Marxist?”

    If you want Republicans to care about the debt, elect a Democratic president.

    Davethulhu (fab944)

  153. 148. Kevin M (19357e) — 1/21/2020 @ 3:35 pm

    Gingrich). Everyone after him lied, not just Trump.

    But Clinton lied about how he did it, and he lied before it happened about what would reduce the deficit;, and he denied after he had eliminated the deficit, that he had.

    Clinton eliminated the deficit by (behind the scenes) getting the Federal Reserve Board to keep interest rates low in order to increase economic growth.

    He didn’t want Republicans to know what worked. Trade secret.

    Sammy Finkelman (083d4c)

  154. It wouldn’t be so easy even with Elizabeth Warren as president and lobbying for it. Not every Democrat will vote for it.

    Have you even looked at the Democrat record lately in the House? NO Democrat was willing to pass any law reforming Obamacare, or even offer any such. ALL but one Democrat voted for this silly-assed impeachment. Judicial seats are being filled on straight party-line votes in the Senate.

    This isn’t 1935.

    Kevin M (19357e)

  155. If you want Republicans to care about the debt, elect a Democratic president.

    But I don’t. I don’t believe ANY politician will do anything about the debt, and even if I did, Congress won’t let them anyway.

    So I will worry about things that can change. Frankly, if Democrats wanted my vote, they’d be better off talking about foreign policy, Iran, NK, proliferation and making NATO stronger. But they have actually found positions WORSE than Trump’s, which took some doing.

    Kevin M (19357e)

  156. We live in Bizarro-land and people keep talking politics like it wasn’t.

    Kevin M (19357e)

  157. I’m a political junkie… but, I can’t really focus on the impeachment hearing (as I’m interacting with ya’ll here).

    Anyone planning on watching it all?

    whembly (91455b)

  158. “Dustin, you cannot simultaneously claim that Trump is a liar, cheat and thief AND THEN complain he doesn’t fulfill his promises.”

    – Kevin M

    Yeah you can. One is an empirical observation, and the other a normative assertion (“it is bad that Trump doesn’t fulfill his promises”).

    Maybe it used to be enough to say the first and let the second be implied – but since so many Americans seem to be fine with Trump failing to keep his promises, it actually makes sense to state the second explicitly.

    Leviticus (efada1)

  159. rcocean posted: Kasich is NOT a mainstream republican

    I said: He was at one time. A strong Reagan ally in Congress.

    DCSCA then posted:

    >>A strong Reagan ally in Congress.
    Reagan has been out of office THIRTY ONE YEARS and a day.

    Typical troll’s game of half-truth quoteback and reply.

    Kevin M (19357e)

  160. 127. I think that refers to disqualification, if convicted, from holding any federal office

    Only if that is listed in the impeachment articles. I think it is, but isn’t always (see Alcee Hastings). Not sure if the Senate can convict but decline to impose that optional penalty.

    Kevin M (19357e)

  161. She’s in her 70s now. She doesn’t care. She’s not Nancy Pelosi or Jane Fonda

    Are those two younger?

    Kevin M (19357e)

  162. What is the percent of impeachment support in arizona, florida, michigan, pennsylvania and wisconsin? They are the states that count.

    asset (29eb24)

  163. Anyone planning on watching it all?

    Not with 7,500 movies and TV shows on Tubi.

    nk (1d9030)

  164. In response to the Democrats claiming that Trump can’t appoint judges during impeachment (Clinton started a WAR during impeachment), it would be fun if Trump appointed someone to RBG’s seat “just to get the ball rolling.”

    Kevin M (19357e)

  165. No one is heir to the living. RBG might outlive Trump’s appointee or Trump himself. Would that be fun?

    nk (1d9030)

  166. 159. whembly (91455b) — 1/21/2020 @ 3:57 pm

    I can’t really focus on the impeachment hearing (as I’m interacting with ya’ll here).

    Anyone planning on watching it all?

    Most of it, which might be closer to about half. Watching or listening.

    Sammy Finkelman (02a146)

  167. SF: She’s in her 70s now. She doesn’t care. She’s not Nancy Pelosi or Jane Fonda

    163. Kevin M (19357e) — 1/21/2020 @ 4:05 pm

    Are those two younger?

    They’re older.

    Susan Ellen “Zoe” Lofgren was born on December 21, 1947. She just turned 72. She was a staff member of the House Judiciary Committee during the Nixon impeachment, a member of the Huse Judiciary Committee during the Clinton impeachment, and now is one of the top four managers.

    Nancy Patricia Pelosi née D’Alesandro was born on March 26, 1940. She’s 79, going on 80.

    Jane Seymour Fonda was born on December 21, 1937. She just turned 82. She shares the same birthday with Zoe Lofgren, only is ten years older.

    Sammy Finkelman (02a146)

  168. This is interesting:

    @RepAdamSchiff
    just claimed that if
    @realDonaldTrump
    really cared about corruption in Ukraine he would’ve raised it before.

    Guess what? HE DID in 2017. Catherine Croft said so in her closed-door testimony, whom Democrats never called to testify publicly (and now you know why).
    https://twitter.com/joelpollak/status/1219777980345438208

    whembly (91455b)

  169. @150 We know that Trump adds more to the debt. He’s done it. Anyone else is Schrodinger’s debtor.

    @155 Of course you didn’t see any Dems breaking. Pelosi makes the sausage behind the scenes instead of in front of the cameras and by the time she’s in front of the cameras, she’s already corralled and counted her votes. Regardless of what else you or I or anyone thinks about her, she’s good at her job. We got used to Bohner and Ryan, who weren’t and apparently couldn’t count votes if their political life depended on it.

    Nic (896fdf)

  170. So, as an active astute news consuming individual, you have no idea what the House is doing, nor, does anyone else…

    You shouldn’t put your words in other peoples’ mouths, iowan. It was made clear that they were still investigating and gathering information.
    As for Kupperman, Trump was going to get impeached, so there was no point in pursuing a case that would be passed on to the Senate.

    Paul Montagu (e1b5a7)

  171. @161. [Kevin] said: “He [Kasich] was at one time. A strong Reagan ally in Congress.”

    DCSCA then posted: “‘A strong Reagan ally in Congress.’ Reagan has been out of office THIRTY ONE YEARS and a day.”

    Kevin then whined: Typical troll’s game of half-truth quoteback and reply.

    Half truth?? Get it through your skull, cultist, or just buy a calendar: “Reagan has been out of office THIRTY ONE YEARS and a day.” [And if you followed through with your swing and a miss]… “And dead nearly 16 years; welcome to the 21st century.”

    “A long time ago… in a galaxy far, far, away…’ – ‘Star Wars’ 1977

    It’s 2020, bub; shout Reagan and listen to the crickets.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  172. Its CNN.
    Trump hates on them, they hate on Trump

    I consider the possibility that the poll is simply battlefield prep by CNN.
    Conventional wisdom says you don’t vote to impeach a popular President. So CNN puts out a poll that says he is unpopular.
    So I take that poll with a big fat grain of salt, on some fries, a nice burger finished inside a tortilla with some of the salt on the rim of my wife’s favorite margarita recipe… (while sitting on a nice comfortable barstool with wonderful upholstery).

    steveg (354706)

  173. DCSA and Kevin, are you trying to act out the Sanders/Warren beef in real time? You guys are arguing about nothing, you know :)

    JRH (52aed3)

  174. *DCSCA dangit.

    JRH (52aed3)

  175. In fact both of you are acting downright Presidential.

    JRH (52aed3)

  176. @159. Anyone planning on watching it all?

    Gee…have paint drying in the den and grass growing in the yard. So many choices– but the Drone races on sports cable beat the Senate drones on CSPAN.

    [Oh, BTW, Kevin- a reminder: Reagan has been out of office THIRTY ONE YEARS and a day and dead nearly 16 years.] 😉

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  177. @175. I know that: he doesn’t. 😉

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  178. @174. I switched CNN off when they pulled back to a medium shot and counted NINE talking heads on their peanut gallery panel. Nobody could get a word in edge-wise.

    Even Fox and MSNBC manage get by with just 3 or 4 in studio– maybe 5 tops w/one on a satellite feed. And CSPAN: none.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  179. I like that game.

    — Walter Cronkite was an anchor on CBS.
    — Walter Cronkite has been dead for ten years and 187 days.

    nk (1d9030)

  180. Jane Seymour Fonda was born on December 21, 1937. She just turned 82.

    Saw her on Colbert a few weeks ago. Finally looks and sounds it, too; a long, long way from Barbarella and Klute days.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  181. @181. Yes.

    And that’s the way it is.

    😉

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  182. Jane Seymour Fonda was born on December 21, 1937. She just turned 82.

    See her at 31:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pC9jMTCy2-Q

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  183. It’s called a non-sequitur.

    Kasich could have been the President we needed. We got the President that increased Fox’s viewership.

    nk (1d9030)

  184. Maybe impeachment was worth it just to torture those old Senate buzzards by making them sit there silently ‘working’ into the night, sipping just water with no gadgets to distract them and playing tic-tac-toe on the back of the impeachment documents– or carving their initial into their desks w/their car keys.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  185. @185. Have you seen him eat?

    Will never shake those images of him wolfing down flapjacks at some IHOP.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  186. 172. As for Kupperman, Trump was going to get impeached, so there was no point in pursuing a case that would be passed on to the Senate.

    What? No point in pursuing because it was going to get passed to the senate? The Senate is charged with trial, duties. Not investigative.

    Why is Schumer requesting documents and testimony if there is no point? Trump is impeached. Job over.

    I didn’t put words into your mouth. You said you did not know. Which is the point. Your premise has no way to identify, which is oversight Sect 1 powers, or impeachment, Sect 2 powers.

    iowan2 (9c8856)

  187. kasich/beto/2020

    mg (8cbc69)

  188. No…Kasich/Gabbard 2020…Make Acne Great Again

    urbanleftbehind (00088b)

  189. The entire 2016 roster on both sides was full of potential Presidents no one wanted.
    The 2020 Democrats roster is filled with potential Presidents no one wants.
    So the solution is to impeach and remove the one person that has gained approval.

    The cure is worse than the disease. Why not find and run sane people who have ALL of America’s best interests in mind?

    Do you know how easy the Dems make it for guys like Trump?
    The only interest group the dems don’t want is white males (and by extension their supportive spouses) They insult a huge cohort and then wonder why they are losing?

    Run someone electable dumbs#it, trouble is that boils down to “BIDEN!!” yay because the Democrats literally have given us either totally crazy people or moderately crazy old people to choose from.
    By comparison, Bernie makes Trump look like a genius, Biden makes him look sharp and young, Warren makes him look honest.

    steveg (354706)

  190. So the solution is to impeach and remove the one person that has gained approval.

    So if Trump is not reelected, the impeachment is now justified? That seems to follow from your reasoning.

    Do you know how easy the Dems make it for guys like Trump?

    On this part your reasoning is solid as a rock, I agree.

    Dustin (b8d6d1)

  191. Why not find and run sane people who have ALL of America’s best interests in mind?
    Ask that of the GOP.
    The current crop of GOP politicians have in effect declared that integrity and honesty don’t matter, and that POTUS should be absolutely immune from any interference by Congress.

    Which means that probably for the rest of my life I will be voting third party. Even though I would have happily voted GOP in 2016 if they hadn’t nominated the Sleazbag in Chief.

    Kishnevi (7de89f)

  192. The line of reasoning in the last couple of comments is silly. “If only the Democrats didn’t nominate a Democrat then Republicans could vote for them.” The Democrats are going to nominate a Democrat. Its kind of their thing. I’d rather have someone I disagree with in office than the current criminal, especially a criminal who isn’t doing things that I care about and most of the things he is doing are unethical, impractical, or harmful.

    Nic (896fdf)

  193. The line of reasoning in the last couple of comments is silly. “If only the Democrats didn’t nominate a Democrat then Republicans could vote for them.” The Democrats are going to nominate a Democrat. Its kind of their thing. I’d rather have someone I disagree with in office than the current criminal, especially a criminal who isn’t doing things that I care about and most of the things he is doing are unethical, impractical, or harmful.

    Nic (896fdf) — 1/21/2020 @ 8:56 pm

    There is no democrat running. Just a bunch of communists that have adopted the entire communist platform in all but name.

    JFK would be called an ultra conservative out of step with “progress.”

    NJRob (4d595c)

  194. @195 Yeah, the R end of media propaganda has cried communist so often that it has no meaning any more. Everything is communism.

    Nic (896fdf)

  195. Nic,

    that’s what you’ve been indoctrinated to believe. Go look up the original CPUSA platform and get back to me.

    I’ll wait for the apology.

    NJRob (4d595c)

  196. @197 I’ve been conditioned by the R. media not to take them seriously when they call something communism because they call everything communism. It’s a boy that cried communism problem.

    CPUSA lost decades ago. They are a shadow of their former selves.

    Nobody in the current Dem field is talking about seizing the means of production. Of the current Dem field, only Bernie is a fan of the defunct USSR and of the current people running across the board, only Trump is a fan of the remains of the defunct USSR. Nobody in the Dem field is arguing that the Rs are attempting to form a one-world-government. Racism sucks is, at the point, a pretty universal (although not entirely universal) sentiment in the US and is in no way wedded to communism. There’s a big section of “We hate the alt-right” which is also not a particularly “communist” sentiment. Teddy Roosevelt was against monopolies and I don’t think anyone ever accused him of being a communist. Their position on socialism is that it is silly and weak. The only thing even close to what you are talking about is socialized medicine and the Dem field doesn’t even agree on that.

    Nobody in the Dem field is the least interested in most of the clap-trap in the CPUSA program document. Dear God is it long and poorly written. Did you bother to read it before sending me over there, or did you just assume what was in it. Bleah.

    Nic (896fdf)

  197. Nic (896fdf) — 1/21/2020 @ 5:03 pm

    Pelosi makes the sausage behind the scenes instead of in front of the cameras and by the time she’s in front of the cameras, she’s already corralled and counted her votes.

    That;s true enough, to some degree, even with impeachment. There were certain things that some waned to but they didn’t charge him with. Nothing to do with the Mueller investigation. No bribery charge. (They ended up with something that sounded plausile to many of te, who didn’t look closely at the evidence.)

    So that can’t be used as an argument that they’d easily get a majority to pack the Supreme Court. This does mean looking at votes cast is not a very good way to tell where a member of Congress stands.

    McConnell is also good at polling his members beforehand. The result is that Congress looks more partisan than it is. It is very partisan in that many times they are not interested in winning any votes from members of the other party.

    Sammy Finkelman (083d4c)

  198. I read CPUSA’s manifesto of a few years ago, a few years ago. Gag me with a spoon. Stalin would have had them all purged with extreme prejudice. Gay rights? Churches ok? Basically, they’re Pete Buttigiegs.

    Which is what actually happened. Like in England — Heh! Like Bernie — where the various Communist sects found that they could be more successful as the Labour Party, our homeboy Commies found that they could get more than 0.0001% of the vote as Democrats, if they could put up with gays and Methodists.

    nk (1d9030)


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