Patterico's Pontifications

1/14/2020

Democratic Presidential Debate – Open Thread

Filed under: General — Dana @ 3:41 pm



[guest post by Dana]

So while the last debate before the Iowa caucuses happens tonight, there is already the potential for some real drama to happen as contenders Elizabeth Warren and Bernie Sanders finally took the gloves off this week.

But first, on stage tonight at Drake University in Des Moines will be an all-white group of Democratic millionaires (excepting Buttigieg) and one billionaire: Joe Biden, Pete Buttigieg, Amy Klobuchar, Bernie Sanders, Tom Steyer and Elizabeth Warren.

Elizabeth Warren and Bernie Sanders have had an interesting week, to say the least. First, the Sanders camp allegedly instructed campaign workers to push a claim to voters that Warren would be weak in a general election because her appeal is limited to wealthy, well-educated Americans:

[T]he script instructs volunteers to tell voters leaning toward the Massachusetts senator that “I like Elizabeth Warren. [optional] In fact, she’s my second choice. But here’s my concern about her.”

It goes on to instruct volunteers to say “people who support her are highly-educated, more affluent people who are going to show up and vote Democratic no matter what” and that “[s]he’s bringing no new bases into the Democratic Party”…

Warren pushed back against the accusation. And then, being a true politician, fundraised off the kerfuffle:

“I was disappointed to hear that Bernie is sending his volunteers out to trash me… Bernie knows me and has known me for a long time, he knows who I am, where I come from, what I have worked on and fought for, and the coalition and grassroots movement we’re trying to build. Democrats want to win in 2020, we all saw the impact of the factionalism in 2016 and we can’t have a repeat of that.”

Sanders denied knowing anything about the talking points:

Asked if he personally approved of such talking points, Sanders gave a straightforward answer.”

“No, of course I did not,” the senator said.

It is now being reported that said Sanders’ camp talking points have been pulled, due to “sloppy wording”.

Next, one day before the Democratic debate, Warren alleged that in 2018 Sanders told her during a private meeting that a woman could not win the presidency:

The two agreed that if they ultimately faced each other as presidential candidates, they should remain civil and avoid attacking one another, so as not to hurt the progressive movement. They also discussed how to best take on President Donald Trump, and Warren laid out two main reasons she believed she would be a strong candidate: She could make a robust argument about the economy and earn broad support from female voters.

Sanders responded that he did not believe a woman could win.

The description of that meeting is based on the accounts of four people: two people Warren spoke with directly soon after the encounter, and two people familiar with the meeting.

Sanders poo-pooed Warren’s claims:

“It is ludicrous to believe that at the same meeting where Elizabeth Warren told me she was going to run for president, I would tell her that a woman couldn’t win,” Sanders said. “It’s sad that, three weeks before the Iowa caucus and a year after that private conversation, staff who weren’t in the room are lying about what happened. What I did say that night was that Donald Trump is a sexist, a racist and a liar who would weaponize whatever he could. Do I believe a woman can win in 2020? Of course! After all, Hillary Clinton beat Donald Trump by 3 million votes in 2016.”

Warren was compelled to then release a specific statement about the encounter with Sanders:

Untitled

[Ed. What a girl: Lob the missile, hit the target, and then say you don’t want to talk about it anymore.]

I’ll just leave you with Democracy for America’s plea for Gran and Gramps to stop this fighting:

“Bernie Sanders and Elizabeth Warren, you both are progressive champions and our movement needs to see you working together to defeat your corporate Democratic opponents – not attack each other,” the statement said. “Progressives will win in 2020, but only if we don’t let the corporate wing or [President] Trump divide us.”

Should be a fun night!

(Cross-posted at The Jury Talks Back.)

–Dana

122 Responses to “Democratic Presidential Debate – Open Thread”

  1. Heh.

    Dana (643cd6)

  2. It’s sort of ridiculous for Bernie to say a woman can’t win. He’s already been beaten by one.

    I think it does give us a picture of a future Warren POTUS though. How’s it going to work blaming Russian aggression on muh lady parts?

    frosty (f27e97)

  3. I should re-post this here.

    This probably won’t come up, but in he year 2000, the JFK Library started a John F. Kennedy Profile In Courage Essay Contest (open only to High School students.) It was the first annual one and has continued since every year.

    The first one was won by Pete Buttigieg.

    The person his essay profiled was…

    Bernie Sanders.

    Because he wasn’t afraid to use the label of Socialist (i.e. a man of both conviction and candor) and he was also “a powerful force for conciliation and bi-partisanship on Capitol Hill”

    https://www.jfklibrary.org/learn/education/profile-in-courage-essay-contest/past-winning-essays/2000-winning-essay-by-peter-buttigieg

    While impressive, Sanders’ candor does not itself represent political courage. The nation is teeming with outspoken radicals in one form or another. Most are sooner called crazy than courageous. It is the second half of Sanders’ political role that puts the first half into perspective: he is a powerful force for conciliation and bi-partisanship on Capitol Hill….

    …Sanders has used his unique position as the lone Independent Congressman to help Democrats and Republicans force hearings on the internal structure of the International Monetary Fund, which he sees as excessively powerful and unaccountable. He also succeeded in quietly persuading reluctant Republicans and President Clinton to ban the import of products made by under-age workers. Sanders drew some criticism from the far left when he chose to grudgingly endorse President Clinton’s bids for election and re-election as President. Sanders explained that while he disagreed with many of Clinton’s centrist policies, he felt that he was the best option for America’s working class.

    Sanders’ positions on many difficult issues are commendable, but his real impact has been as a reaction to the cynical climate which threatens the effectiveness of the democratic system. His energy, candor, conviction, and ability to bring people together stand against the current of opportunism, moral compromise, and partisanship which runs rampant on the American political scene. He and few others like him have the power to restore principle and leadership in Congress and to win back the faith of a voting public weary and wary of political opportunism. Above all, I commend Bernie Sanders for giving me an answer to those who say American young people see politics as a cesspool of corruption, beyond redemption. I have heard that no sensible young person today would want to give his or her life to public service. I can personally assure you this is untrue.

    Maybe he couldn’t then, but he can now.

    Sammy Finkelman (02a146)

  4. Dominoes are starting to drop every 30 minutes all over. New evidence implicating Rudy and Trump from Parnas goes public; Pelosi to name impeachment managers tomorrow morning. Trump rallies in Wisconsin… all big footing the debate. Pelosi, in particular, seems oblivious to the timing in all this. If there’s some grand strategy behind her moves and motives it’s pretty obscure.

    It looks more like loser’s damage control.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  5. [Ed. What a girl: Lob the missile, hit the target, and then say you don’t want to talk about it anymore.]

    You crack me up, Dana. I wish there were more women like you in the world.

    norcal (42c8d0)

  6. Trump almost went to war with Iran to change the subject from those emails showing how valid the obstruction aspect of the impeachment was. You ask a Republican and they will say that’s insane… but they literally do not know about this reality. All they know is that Trump has always been leading the Iranian people out of oppression by tweets (despite three years of incredible failure and collateral damage of dozens of civilians from an action he claimed was to stop something imminent… because he lied).

    Trump might yet win. I mean, against Bernie? I can’t vote for a socialist. Trump is lucky his adversaries never take him seriously. This guy has Putin’s help so he can be more cunning than he seems superficially. Putin’s been propping up loser leaders for longer than many readers of this blog have been alive.

    Dustin (d9d65a)

  7. Maybe we can settle this in a bit more traditional way
    https://www.desmoinesregister.com/story/news/crime-and-courts/2020/01/13/iowa-courts-david-ostrom-requests-trial-combat-swords-settle-dispute/4456079002/

    Might be too late for the debate, but just in time for the caucuses.

    Kishnevi (1fe800)

  8. Pelosi, in particular, seems oblivious to the timing in all this. If there’s some grand strategy behind her moves and motives it’s pretty obscure.
    On the contrary, it’s a great way to divert attention from the Silly Six.

    Kishnevi (1fe800)

  9. @6. Two jokers, a pair of deuces and a Red Queen has been a Putin winning hand for years.

    Socialism aside, the broader electorate of the country will elect a woman– perhaps two or three– before it ever elects a cranky old Jewish guy.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  10. It’s remarkable that Pelosi … or Biden I guess, are the defacto movement leaders. I criticize the GOP a lot lately but the democrats are a real joke. Both parties are weakened by their Yes Men internal politics.

    Dustin (d9d65a)

  11. @9 As a cranky getting-to-be-old Jewish guy…I must admit you may be right.

    Kishnevi (1fe800)

  12. @10. Snatching defeat from the jaws of victory is their slogan. Her ‘no-matter-what-he-will-always-be-impeached’ pitch is the classic ‘we won a battle but lost the war’ mindset. Does she remember Bubba was impeached, too– and remains quite popular.

    She really blew it this time. Congress should have started to discipline him the day after Helsinki.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  13. If Ms. Pelosi who is the San Fran Nan really sat on the impeachment in order to keep these two wrinkled-butt old dipwiddles, Warren and Sanders, stuck in the Senate doing the trial and not campaigning in Iowa, then she is a true-blue patriot who loves America and Elvis too and my thoughts and prayers go out to her. May her fig trees be laden with fruit; may her flocks be fertile and fecund; and may her hemorrhoids shrink by themselves without surgery.

    nk (dbc370)

  14. @8. Why would she torpedo her own troop ship? One of these six is going to survive for the nom; Bloomie can’t buy it. She lost the power play w/McConnell, too. If her objective is to damage Trump by injuring her own team she’s doing a swelluva job.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  15. 13. That’s my line of country, too; she has a long Congressional history w/Biden. She may just be running interference for him.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  16. “It is ludicrous to believe that at the same meeting where Elizabeth Warren told me she was going to run for president, I would tell her that a woman couldn’t win,” Sanders said.

    ‘It is ludicrous’ is a non-denial, denial, Bernard.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  17. ‘It is ludicrous’ is a non-denial, denial, Bernard.

    DCSCA (797bc0) — 1/14/2020 @ 5:23 pm

    I don’t think so. This is pretty plainly a denial. He’s saying it didn’t happen. He’s strongly disputing the claim.

    I think Warren has a problem with the truth where she allows the truth to bend just enough to where to everyone but her, she is lying. For example, if Bernie were to tell Warren it’s hard for a woman to win the presidency while encouraging her, obviously that would mean he was pumping her up for a hard fight, and not telling her it’s hopeless. But in her recollection, just a little nudge and he’s saying the presidency is for men like him I guess.

    Or maybe he did tell her for some reason, but I don’t think a guy who was beaten in the primary by a woman would suddenly be consumed by how impossible the process is to women.

    This really makes Warren look bad. Perhaps she wants to be Biden’s VP pick?

    Dustin (d9d65a)

  18. Just to see if these six candidates are aware and alert, CNN debates should start w/this first question:

    “If Kitty Dukakis were raped and murdered, would you favor an irrevocable death penalty for the killer?”

    Responses could range from Pete Buttigieg surely saying, “Who?” — to Joe Biden actually answering by plagiarizing Michael Dukakis’ response from 1988.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  19. @17. One of the is lying; misleading is too kind a term.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  20. ^them

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  21. Why wouldn’t Bernie have told Warren that in a meeting where she says she’s thinking of running? That seems like precisely where he would say that. After all, if he discouraged her from running, that would be one less person to compete with.

    I could probably vote for Warren. I think she’s ultimately more practical than some of her current campaign stances. Sanders? (shudders)

    @2 If Bernie did say a woman couldn’t win, I don’t see how pointing it out is hiding behind her lady parts. If it’s true, it’s fair game.

    Nic (896fdf)

  22. I am inclined to believe Bernie in this. That Warren would make the allegation about him saying a woman couldn’t win in a general election right before the most critical debate of all, tells me all I need to know. Then, the fact that she says she doesn’t want to talk about it anymore, seals the deal. If it was important enough to bring up on the eve of the last debate before the caucuses when trailing in the polls, then it’s important enough to discuss further. I’m not buying.

    Dana (643cd6)

  23. It could be 1/1024th true.

    nk (dbc370)

  24. I will vote for Biden against Trump, if I like his Vice-President, and I suspect that I will, because it will be a straight arrow governor and not one of these other dodos.

    nk (dbc370)

  25. @22. Interesting tactics. A woman’s perspective does help.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  26. I will never ever, vote for JoeyBee. He is a known plagiarist; that’s thievery. A fabulist who exaggerates his personal and professional experiences and even make up stories– and has gotten people killed. Oh, wait– right. But he’s not nearly as entertaining as Trump! 😉

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  27. So far only Warren says she would pull combat troops out of ME.

    Dana (643cd6)

  28. Not the first time The White Man has disowned things said to Native Americans.

    Munroe (dd6b64)

  29. Sanders: our job is to rebuild the UN.

    Dana (643cd6)

  30. Kim said, “Joe Biden is a rabid dog and should be beaten with a stick.”

    And on top of that… a plagiarist.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  31. @27. That’s an honest answer. In the end, we will leave the region.

    JoeyBee’s bogus word play over special forces versus troops is disingenuous.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  32. JoeyBee is in the pockets of the Delaware-based banks.

    Total scumball.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  33. Here we go: Sanders asked about comment re a woman could not win election…

    Dana (643cd6)

  34. Wow, Sanders hit it head on and denied it. Warren, when asked about his alleged comments…pivoted.

    Dana (643cd6)

  35. Ooh, I hope Bernie says: “It’s 1/1024th true.”

    nk (dbc370)

  36. Darn!

    nk (dbc370)

  37. She reiterated that he said it but that it doesn’t matter because women and elections…

    If I’m Bernie – and didn’t say it – I’d be accusing Warren of slander.

    Dana (643cd6)

  38. Unless there’s real rhetorical fireworks in the debate, the news of the Parnas document dump is going to overshadow their night. They show a cabal of scuzzballs that Giuliani tried to bring together to dig dirt on Trump’s chief political rival. The newest name is a Connecticut twat named Robert Hyde.

    Paul Montagu (e1b5a7)

  39. Clearly the moderators don’t want to make a fuss and point out that both Warren and Sanders are calling each other a liar and WHAT ABOUT THAT!

    Dana (643cd6)

  40. Bernie, me thinks you protest too much: Warren bested Sanders on the TeeVee.

    Skirmish over.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  41. @39. Remember your Trump 101: all that matters is how it looks on TeeVee.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  42. I wish one of them had said what Pete B said once: that he wanted to win the support of independent-minded Conservatives. Biden missed a chance when he was talking about having the broadest coalition of anyone up there.

    As for Warren I think it’s a net win. She gets to look like she’s fighting sexism while also avoiding alienating Sanders and his supporters.

    But I think Biden will be the overall winner. Basically all he does is not topple over while the rest of them go at each other and he wins.

    JRH (52aed3)

  43. @38. Too little; too late. He’s already being impeached; do a head count in the Senate; he’s gonna beat the wrap, even if Rudy and associates go under the bus.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  44. @21 He might have said she couldn’t win and it would make sense to say that up front. It just seems odd for him to say “a woman” couldn’t win given his history with HRC.

    frosty (f27e97)

  45. JRH (52aed3) — 1/14/2020 @ 6:57 pm

    I would have appreciated an appeal to Independents. I got tired of the debate and switched to the Trump rally (replay) in WI for just a while. Within a few minutes, I heard Trump refer to Independent voters support. So that was nice.

    felipe (023cc9)

  46. @45 Good point, and smart, when so many people are fleeing both parties.

    JRH (52aed3)

  47. @45. Can I’s caucus w/D’s in Iowa? If not, the appeal would be wasted; if so, you have a valid point.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  48. Also why does Wolf Blitzer have a job? he has the most uninteresting face and voice on television. He makes me want to watch paint dry.

    JRH (52aed3)

  49. Now there’s a lovely young corn-fed Des Moines filly in red asking questions. Best thing on the screen all evening.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  50. Dana (643cd6) — 1/14/2020 @ 6:47 pm

    Once the moderator asked Warren, after Bernie’s denial, “what did you think when Senator Sanders told you a woman can’t win…” ( laughter from the audience*) he knew the deck was stacked against him.

    * the kind of laughter that emanates from a position of ” yeah, he’s lying.”

    felipe (023cc9)

  51. Boohoo- pullout your hankees for poor JoeyBee who was only pulling in $42,000 in 1974.

    Who is he kidding: $42,000 in 1974 is equivalent in purchasing power to about $219,122.43 in 2019, a difference of $177,122.43 over 45 years.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  52. DCSCA (797bc0) — 1/14/2020 @ 7:16 pm

    Although I disagree about any appeal being wasted, that is an excellent question, DCSCA. Does anyone have the answer?

    felipe (023cc9)

  53. @50 It’s going to be interesting to see where the Bernie bros go with this. Imagine being the wokest of the woke and still getting played with an sjw card. Twice.

    frosty (f27e97)

  54. @52. Agree the I-appeal would perk up the ears for viewer outside of Iowa– but yes, how the caucus system works there would be helpful. Also, weather is a factor there, too. If memory serves, people physically have to go to a meeting place or home and gather in groups in favor of one candidate or another. A frigid blizzard wouldn’t be helpful. It’s an odd system.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  55. Biden is defending Biden when nobody asked him to. The stink of impropriety is all over him and his kid.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  56. I think ol’ Gropin’ Joe must owe you money, Mr. DSCA. You seem to have it in for him.

    JRH (52aed3)

  57. *DCSCA

    JRH (52aed3)

  58. I don’t really care, but lies, hypocrisy, and lies (not to mention that she’s not only a lawyer but also a law professor and breeds more of the species), are more a part of Fauxcahontas’s resume than they are Bernie’s. She’s lying. One more time among many.

    nk (dbc370)

  59. Is it scandalous to have your personal attorney go dig up foreign dirt on a campaign rival?
    Hillary sent someone to go get the Steele dossier fleshed out after McCain started the ball rolling.

    Nobody is going to care what a private attorney for the President did. They expect attorneys to root around in the the muck and be buttheads. Look at the attorney for Hunter Bidens lovechild. He’s left no scum unstirred

    steveg (354706)

  60. @56. He’s a plagiarist. That’s not only thievery; it’s lazy-azzed.

    That ‘I was only pulling in $42,000′ line was deceptive spin as well. 45 years of dishonesty. It’s because of politicians like him voters turned to Trump.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  61. Her whole life is a lie. She makes Biden look like a guy who is just trying to be honest with the folks…. and he is a liar who tells lies about the lies he told to try to get out of his lies. He probably told Hunter his real name is Robert, but he was called by his middle name Hunter after his Great Uncle Biff who died in a space walk back in 1900

    steveg (354706)

  62. No, Mayor Pete: Donald trump will stand next to you with his attractive, hot model wife, Melania– a woman.

    Your male partner into flats or pumps?

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  63. I think Elizabeth Warren is by and large a fabulist, liar, phony, chisler, etc., but I can very easily see senile old Bernard Sanders off-handedly expressing the opinion that Lieawatha ascribes to him. I think that his aggressive socialism serves as cover for some very old-fashioned and unenlightened views about women.

    JVW (54fd0b)

  64. In neighborhoods you come from, JoeyBee? The one back in 1974 with your $42,000/yr. salary [equivalent in purchasing power to about $219,122.43 in 2019] JoeyBee???

    Maybe Corn Pop can fill us in.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  65. Mayor Pete. Now, that’s a kid who defines hubris. Has he turned 38 yet?

    nk (dbc370)

  66. Memo to Tom Steyer. Was leafing through a 1955 issue of the Saturday Evening Post and saw that same narrow Webley plaid tie. Made in USA.

    Where is yours made?

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  67. I think Mayor Pete wears the designer heels in that relationship, regardless of what they say in public.
    He can be a bitchy little queenie when crossed, although to be fair most gay couples I know sorta swap roles more than I’m comfortable asking about. The powerlifter used to own a candle shop, folds laundry in the nude except for a pottery smock. I try not to go inside the house anymore

    steveg (354706)

  68. How does it happen Bernie??

    Reaganomics. 😉

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  69. The reality is that any Dem candidate is going to look at least a little sjw because that is where the Dem (and even some independent and R) conversation is and because Trump can’t even hold a civilized conversation with another person so anyone looks like an SJW in comparison to him. Teddy Cruz looks like an SJW in comparison with Trump. Bernie’s particular pie in the sky, flood it with magic money and solve all the problems brand of SJW is one I don’t like at all. He’s proved over decades in congress that he can’t and won’t work with anyone to do anything unless they will bow down to him and his ideas and that isn’t functional in a President. And maybe that would be better that he hates the good and only loves what he thinks of as perfection if he were elected President, just like it’s better that Trump can’t manage to take yes for an answer on some of his stupider ideas to get anything done. But it’s still a bad look.

    Nic (896fdf)

  70. CN realy mssed the moment by talking over it:

    Ooooooooooooooo! Warren and Sanders did not shake hands at the end of the debate.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  71. Mayor Pete probably keeps a 2X life size buck naked (except for those fabulous winged boots and that helmet… no silly the other helmet) buck naked statue of Mercury in his shower… “ooooooh, fast and furious”

    steveg (354706)

  72. @63 I mean, politician? Politicians will only do what will make them popular or what their constituents hold their feet to the fire to make them do.

    Nic (896fdf)

  73. @71 I can’t say I really care that Pete likes dudes. There have been plenty of brilliant leaders who may have traded off pitching vs catching duties in the bedroom. But he’s a puppy, not an alpha wolf.

    Nic (896fdf)

  74. Three gay Presidents in a row would be a little bit too much, but it’s Pete conceit that should be the most alarming.

    nk (dbc370)

  75. There have been plenty of brilliant leaders who may have traded off pitching vs catching duties in the bedroom.

    Who?

    nk (dbc370)

  76. I don’t care either
    But everything I said a minute ago, I stole from a gay friend

    steveg (354706)

  77. J Edgar Hoover?
    James Comey?

    steveg (354706)

  78. @75 Some of the easier ones:

    Alexander the Great (really any great ancient greek leader)
    Richard the Lionheart
    Various Medicis
    Alan Turning

    Nic (896fdf)

  79. You forgot James I. Now please excuse me while I snicker quietly behind my hand.

    nk (dbc370)

  80. Teddy Roosevelt?
    Grover Cleveland?
    Anthony Scaramucci?
    Josef Stalin?
    Fidel Castro?
    Idi Amin?
    Soleimani?

    no no no Popes 1-266? Winner!!!

    steveg (354706)

  81. Ya try to treat a question seriously and ya get a team comedy routine in response.

    Nic (896fdf)

  82. Lincoln shared a bedroom with a dude for a while I think. And never seemed particularly “into” Mary Todd. Then again, she was crazier than a poop house rodent.

    JRH (52aed3)

  83. er not just a bedroom but a bed.

    JRH (52aed3)

  84. Yeah, that’s why they call themselves Log Cabin Republicans.

    nk (dbc370)

  85. yeah. ew. heh.

    JRH (52aed3)

  86. Sorry, Nic, but both your original statement and your response to my question were, let’s say “unscientific”, if not “throwaway”.

    nk (dbc370)

  87. They used to rent hotel rooms by the bed in the west… you could share a bed with some goat roper/gun slinger if you were a little light o funds… personally I’d rather sleep on the prairie for another night… not because of Brokeback Mountain, but because of the inevitable snoring and farting (was that a snore or a fart… oh. dear god, both…). I went to a mens conference some years back up in the rockies, Buena Vista area in the winter and all they had left was bunkhouse accommodations. after the first night, in the winter at 9000 feet mind you, I slept in my expedition bag and all the clothes and blankets I had, out in my truck (it had a camper shell.)

    steveg (354706)

  88. @86 Not leaders? Not brilliant? Or not bedding other men? Those are famous cases. There’s plenty of academic work on each one.

    Nic (896fdf)

  89. Let’s not leave out the Queen of Nicodemia aka Julius Ceasar!

    Kishnevi (1fe800)

  90. Memo to Tom Steyer. Was leafing through a 1955 issue of the Saturday Evening Post and saw that same narrow Webley plaid tie. Made in USA.

    I used to have that very same tie but I somehow managed to lose it, I know not when or where. Style like that is timeless.

    In a million years, though, I would never pair it with a blue suit and a blue shirt like Steyer did. That’s just awful.

    JVW (54fd0b)

  91. Bithynia. Nicodemes was the king in question.

    nk (dbc370)

  92. One of the few pleasures of the Trump Administration is watching Melania board and deplane AF1. Not prepared to have Mayor Pete take away that visual treat.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  93. @38. You are right. New light being shed on the meaning of “she’s going to go through some things.” Trump is a cheap thug.

    JRH (52aed3)

  94. @90. Also, it’s Television Production 101: avoid wearing plaid on TeeVee; it can cause moire patterns w/t camera.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  95. #94
    I had to take my seizure medication

    steveg (354706)

  96. Because I started to dream about lumberjacks

    steveg (354706)

  97. We are to believe an admitted liar over a truth teller? John kerry, hillary clinton and joe biden all voted for the iraq war so republicans couldn’t use their iraq war vote against them when they ran for president. Now none of them will be president. The blood of 5000 americans is on their hands.

    asset (c49faa)

  98. . She’s lying. One more time among many.
    nk (dbc370) — 1/14/2020 @ 7:42 pm

    Dana had it right all along. Look at the replay – Warren can’t help but dupe when the question is asked. That is the give away.

    felipe (023cc9)

  99. [Bernie Sanders] hates the good and only loves what he thinks of as perfection if he were elected President, just like it’s better that Trump can’t manage to take yes for an answer on some of his stupider ideas to get anything done. But it’s still a bad look.

    Nic (896fdf) — 1/14/2020 @ 8:10 pm

    That’s insightful. Trump has been a gift to democrats. That doesn’t mean they have to benefit. Sanders would never be able to accomplish as much as Obama did, and Obama didn’t really accomplish a lot. The president’s phoney legislative powers would lead to headlines, GOP victories against the socialist, and a silly GOP nominee in 2024.

    All this stuff can’t be understood unless you see each party simply as a dumb reaction to the other party. And to think, had Al Gore won in 2000…

    Dustin (85808e)

  100. 88. @86 Not leaders? Not brilliant? Or not bedding other men? Those are famous cases. There’s plenty of academic work on each one.

    I question deride the scholarship and the objectivity integrity of the scholars. It’s gay agenda propaganda, nothing more. Fabulous! (As in fables.)

    It’s not a new thing, either. Here’s Plutarch, at around 100 AD, writing about a battle that happened in 338 BC and creating the fable of a Sacred Band of 150 pairs of male lovers:

    18 1 The sacred band, we are told, was first formed by Gorgidas, of three hundred chosen men, to whom the city furnished exercise and maintenance, and who encamped in the Cadmeia; for which reason, too, they were called the city band; for citadels in those days were properly called cities. But some say that this band was composed of lovers and beloved.

    From these “we are told” and “some say”, and no other evidence whatsoever, Plutarch goes on to give us a page or two of paeans about how wonderful it is to have soldiers composed of pairs of “flute players”. No joke:

    19 1 Speaking generally, however, it was not the passion of Laius that, as the poets say, first made this form of love customary among the Thebans;20 but their law-givers, wishing to relax and mollify their strong and impetuous natures in earliest boyhood, gave the flute great prominence both in their work and in their play, bringing this instrument into pre-eminence and honour, and reared them to give love a conspicuous place in the life of the palaestra, thus tempering the dispositions of the young men. 2882 And with this in view, they did well to give the goddess who was said to have been born of Ares and Aphrodite a home in their city; for they felt that, where the force and courage of the warrior are most closely associated and united with the age which possesses grace and persuasiveness, there all the activities of civil life are brought by Harmony into the most perfect consonance and order. http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Roman/Texts/Plutarch/Lives/Pelopidas*.html

    I submit that “we are told” and “some say” is not evidence of anything and would not be accepted as evidence in an impeachment, let alone historical evidence. But it has caught hold among those who, whether or not they themselves believe it as true, want others to believe it as true. And I further suggest that it’s likewise the case with other famous men painted with the same brush.

    nk (dbc370)

  101. I have a life so didn’t watch. I take it from reading the scatology that no one, not moderator Blitzen nor any of the other candidates, asked about Sanders’ campaign workers getting caught on camera praising Stalin’s gulags and threatening that if Trump wins cities will burn.

    This is not serious stuff. It’s clown show entertainment. With censors keeping people from being too entertained. Which is why I don’t waste my time with it.

    PTw (894877)

  102. mr nk is in denial over the fact that the first tranny tatters were filthy greecers

    Dave (1bb933)

  103. Not so, I’m a realist. I know they had theater, and you can’t have theater without gays. But where did they get the Jews and gypsies from?

    nk (dbc370)

  104. nk seems to be discounting one of the great scholars of antiquity, Oliverius Stonecus.

    Munroe (dd6b64)

  105. While I don’t mind seeing Warren discomfited, Sanders is the more looney and radical of the two.

    See this article:

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/inside-bernie-sanderss-1988-10-day-honeymoon-in-the-soviet-union/2019/05/02/db543e18-6a9c-11e9-a66d-a82d3f3d96d5_story.html

    The man is dangerous. God help us if he becomes president.

    Bored Lawyer (998177)

  106. Hey Bernie, when did you stop beating your wife?

    mg (8cbc69)

  107. Two different transcripts of the Tuesday, January 14, 2020 Democratic debate in Iowa:

    Thus one gives you the time and is perhaps more accurate, (not correcting speaking flubs) but doesn’t give you the names of the moderators, just a number, and does not record any audience reaction:

    https://www.rev.com/blog/transcripts/january-iowa-democratic-debate-transcript

    It also spells out the word “Senator” but it doesn’t spell out the name of Elizabeth Warren, calling her E. Warren, but it does spell out the name of the five other candidates there. You can click on the timestamps to here video at that spot if you’re using acompuer that can play video.

    This transcript is from the Des Moines Register:

    https://www.desmoinesregister.com/story/news/elections/presidential/caucus/2020/01/14/democratic-debate-transcript-what-the-candidates-said-quotes/4460789002/

    Sammy Finkelman (2cb3c3)

  108. @100 if you are complaining about the band of Thebes, there is contemporaneous evidence that Thebes did send lovers into battle together. Xenophon complains about it.

    If you don’t credit the work of people (most of whom have nothing at all to do with gay rights) who’ve spent their lives studying these historical figures, I’m not going to convince you of anything. It seems like you’ve already decided they couldn’t have slept with other men, so anyone who studies them and says “eh, probably he did.” therefore must be part of the “Gay agenda”. That’s not great evidence evaluation, but it’s your choice, so whatever.

    Nic (896fdf)

  109. DPRK News breaks yet another story.

    Marshal Kim Jong-Un sends congratulations to Vladimir Putin on victory in 2024 election as Russian prime minister.

    Paul Montagu (e1b5a7)

  110. @100 if you are complaining about the band of Thebes, there is contemporaneous evidence that Thebes did send lovers into battle together. Xenophon complains about it.

    Doubtful.

    Furthermore, I was not exactly complaining about the band of Thebes. I was using it as an example of how people with agendas make long spokes of short stakes, by pointing out that “we are told” and “some say” is not adequate evidence (particularly when coming from an obviously fervid enthusiast of the “flute”).

    nk (dbc370)

  111. 42. JRH (52aed3) — 1/14/2020 @ 6:57 pm

    I wish one of them had said what Pete B said once: that he wanted to win the support of independent-minded Conservatives.

    Pete B once said:

    https://www.jfklibrary.org/learn/education/profile-in-courage-essay-contest/past-winning-essays/2000-winning-essay-by-peter-buttigieg

    Candidates have discovered that is easier to be elected by not offending anyone rather than by impressing the voters. Politicians are rushing for the center, careful not to stick their necks out on issues….some candidates run “test platforms” through sample groups to see which is most likely to win before they speak out on major issue. This disturbing trend reveals cynicism, a double-sided problem, which is perhaps, the greatest threat to the continued success of the American political system.

    Cynical candidates have developed an ability to outgrow their convictions in order to win power..
    Fortunately for the political process, there remain a number of committed individuals who are steadfast enough in their beliefs to run for office to benefit their fellow Americans…One outstanding and inspiring example of such integrity is the country’s only Independent Congressman, Vermont’s Bernie Sanders…While impressive, Sanders’ candor does not itself represent political courage. The nation is teeming with outspoken radicals in one form or another. Most are sooner called crazy than courageous. It is the second half of Sanders’ political role that puts the first half into perspective: he is a powerful force for conciliation and bi-partisanship on Capitol Hill. … It may seem strange that someone so steadfast in his principles has a reputation as a peacemaker between divided forces in Washington, but this is what makes Sanders truly remarkable.

    Pete Buttigieg really wanted to win that contest.

    But that’s what a essay contest, with a pre-determined conclusion (there are some great people) like that one does:

    It makes people into liars.

    Sammy Finkelman (2cb3c3)

  112. 62. nk (dbc370) — 1/14/2020 @ 8:02 pm

    Mayor Pete. Now, that’s a kid who defines hubris. Has he turned 38 yet?

    His birthday is the coming Sunday,

    He finishes his winning essay in a new contst (which he correctly surmised was looking for a student to identify someone who Caroline Kennedy figured fit the profile of a great man who had a profile in courage) as follows:

    Above all, I commend Bernie Sanders for giving me an answer to those who say American young people see politics as a cesspool of corruption, beyond redemption. I have heard that no sensible young person today would want to give his or her life to public service. I can personally assure you this is untrue.

    Sammy Finkelman (2cb3c3)

  113. Because he’s a sensible young person, right?

    Sammy Finkelman (2cb3c3)

  114. 109. The entire Russian government, including Dmitry Medvedev, resigned today, as Vladimir Putin moves to change the Russian constitution by changing the location of the center of power and weakening the presidency after his term, so, that after his term ends in 2024 he can still continue to exercise power, despite being term limited.

    https://www.npr.org/2020/01/15/796583763/russias-government-resigns-as-putin-moves-to-change-the-constitution

    The president accepted Medvedev’s resignation and said he would appoint his longtime loyalist to the Russian Security Council….

    ….The surprising mass resignation, which Medvedev announced during a meeting of the ministers in Moscow, came not long after Putin put forward a package of proposed constitutional amendments in his annual state of the nation address.

    “After those amendments are adopted — and it was said that this is likely to be done following discussion — there will be significant changes not only to a variety of constitution articles, but to the balance of power, namely to the executive, legislative and judicial branches of power,” Medvedev explained in the meeting, Tass reports…

    …The removal of the presidential term limit was not part of his package of proposed constitutional amendments; instead, the changes featured in the package would actually diminish the president’s power and ability to sidestep the limits as Putin did. The overhaul would also give more control over ministerial nominations to the State Duma, the lower chamber of Russia’s lawmaking body, the Federal Assembly.

    At the same time, the plan to empower the State Council, a presidential advisory body, suggests a potential landing place for Putin after his term ends.

    Sammy Finkelman (2cb3c3)

  115. nk (dbc370) — 1/15/2020 @ 7:08 am

    I notice the poster they use for the Brooks film is the one from the Benny film.

    Greeks obviously knew about pederasty and ephebophilia, but what may be the oldest jokes targeting gays and transgendered appear in Aristophanes.

    Kishnevi (dc4324)

  116. @110 Your link doesn’t really address the topic one way or the other.

    Nic (896fdf)

  117. Sorry. I won’t pursue it. It was supposed to show that Xenophon would have been too young at the time to have been there.

    nk (dbc370)

  118. @117 It does do that, but it was a common rhetorical device for the Greek philosophers when they were probably airing their own opinion of a current issue. (I had to read way. way. way. way too many Greek philosophers when I was in college.)

    Nic (896fdf)

  119. More here on Robert Hyde, the mentally unstable twat from Connecticut and another sketchy character in the Giuliani orbit.
    There is literally no one in the Trump-Giuliani cabal who isn’t a corrupt or a hyperpartisan douchebag or both.

    Paul Montagu (38c55b)

  120. A word on Mr. Parnas.
    I saw him on Maddow and I think he’s playing it politically smart. He’s getting his story out before the trial but, then again, he doesn’t have a lot to lose: He’s under indictment and he’s a lowly minion in relation to Giuliani and the other Trump cabal members, but he has documentation that makes his story believable.

    Paul Montagu (38c55b)

  121. @120. But here’s the thing– Maddow is an ‘opinionator'; a pundit, just like Hannity or Ingraham or any of the of the other cable news peanut gallery talkers. They are not hard news outlets.

    Going to those cable spinners- from which ever point o/t compass you come from, should always be suspect. They are not journalists. The time for Parnas to spill his guts is on Sunday nights; the place: 524 West 57th St., New York, N.Y.

    “Tell me a story.” – Don Hewitt, producer/creator CBS News, ’60 Minutes’

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  122. Leave it to Paul to lecture us about hyper partisan douchebags.
    You most definitely would know.

    mg (8cbc69)


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