Iran Denies Downing Ukrainian Plane: We can say with certainty that no missile hit the plane
[guest post by Dana]
From the AP:
Iran on Friday denied Western allegations that one of its own missiles downed a Ukrainian jetliner that crashed outside Tehran, and called on the U.S. and Canada to share any information they have on the crash, which killed all 176 people on board.
Western leaders said the plane appeared to have been unintentionally hit by a surface-to-air missile just hours after Iran launched around a dozen ballistic missiles at two U.S. bases in Iraq to avenge the killing of its top general in an American airstrike last week.
“What is obvious for us, and what we can say with certainty, is that no missile hit the plane,” Ali Abedzadeh, head of Iran’s national aviation department, told a press conference.
Further, there are now concerns being raised about the integrity of Iran’s investigation into the crash:
The site of a crashed Ukrainian airliner near Iran’s capital Tehran has been cleared of all large pieces of debris and locals are trawling over the remaining wreckage, as calls grow for a full and transparent investigation into the disaster.
The lack of security at the scene has raised concerns over the inquiry’s credibility, just a day after western intelligence officials said Iran shot down the jet with surface-to-air missiles. Iran has denied any hostile act, calling the assessment a “big lie.”
An eyewitness at the crash site told CNN that looters and “garbage men” were “wandering around,” picking up debris, objects made of aluminum and anything else deemed valuable, as police and Revolutionary Guard Corps tried to disperse them.
[…]
The head of Iran’s Civil Aviation Authority Ali Abedzadeh told CNN on Friday that fragments of the plane had been taken to a hangar off-site to “reconstruct” it for “investigating the cause of the crash,” and that the remains of victims had been sent to a forensic lab for DNA testing.
Note: CBS News visited the crash site on Friday and found that it had already been scrubbed of virtually all debris.
Graham Braithwaite, professor of safety and accident investigation at Cranfield University explains just how critical the actual crash site is when black boxes are damaged, as Iran has claimed they are:
Where you have flight recorders that tell you what has happened you can move quickly to clearing the site. But if the recorders are damaged…then all you have is the forensic evidence at the site to tell you the story.
Here is video making the rounds that appears to be the missile hitting the plane:
https://youtu.be/pXy6wBV647s
Researchers with the online investigative group Bellingcat were able to pinpoint the location from which the video was shot, in the town of Parand. “There is a construction site with a few very distinct buildings,” says Aric Toler, the group’s lead researcher on Eastern Europe and Eurasia. The camera appears to be pointing in the correct direction, showing the missile coming from the north or west, the direction of some of the sensitive Iranian facilities, and what is likely the aircraft coming from the south or east, where the airport is located.
Toler says the time it takes the sound of the blast to reach the viewer also provides a clue. “If you’re watching a storm, you can count how far away the lightning is, based on how long the thunder takes,” he says. “It’s the same thing with a missile explosion.”
The delay between flash and boom shows the explosion took place some 3.3 kilometers (2 miles) from the viewer, a good match for where the flight was expected to be. “It is exactly the right distance and path to where the flight path was,” Toler says.
It is now being reported that Iran intends to announce what caused the downing of the Ukrainian jetplane tomorrow.
(Cross-posted at The Jury Talks Back.)
–Dana
Unsurprising.
Dana (643cd6) — 1/10/2020 @ 12:12 pmA missed opportunity; the smart move now by Iran now would be to express regret, manage reparations, remind the world that the climate was created by the assassination of their hero general by the Great Satan Trump, who created this situation, then corral the missile team – military or proxy– have a quick trial in the Tehran airport lounge– and execute them.
DCSCA (797bc0) — 1/10/2020 @ 12:17 pmNext we’ll see him standing in front of a line of trucks all decked out with the radioactive symbol on them and he’ll be claiming the Iranian people have no nuclear materials in this location… he makes Sean Spicer look like a totally honest broker of information
Oh
steveg (354706) — 1/10/2020 @ 12:38 pmAnd *pained expression* I agree with DCSCA’s take on what Iran should do. Their government culture would never allow it, but that is indeed what they should do. Good call DCSCA
2.
Canada is against the death penalty.
This doesn’t impress anybody as something good. China once executed the head of its FDA.
Sammy Finkelman (02a146) — 1/10/2020 @ 12:52 pmTomorrow might look something like the old SNL skit where people call in to Idi Amin
https://www.nbc.com/saturday-night-live/video/ask-big-daddy/3004320
You’ll need to disable your ad blocker
steveg (354706) — 1/10/2020 @ 12:57 pm“No American paid a price for President Donald Trump’s decision to kill Iran’s Qassem Soleimani. But it looks like 176 other people did, including 63 Canadian citizens and many more Iranian nationals en route to Canada,” wrote The Atlantic’s David Frum, who was a vocal supporter of the Iraq war.
Munroe (dd6b64) — 1/10/2020 @ 12:58 pmI didn’t endorse the execution because it has probably already been done (or they’ve been banished to some godforsaken outpost)… or… per the skit, killed in car crash
steveg (354706) — 1/10/2020 @ 12:59 pmI’m not surprised that the regime is lying, and it might say something about the tenuousness of the political situation there.
Paul Montagu (704822) — 1/10/2020 @ 1:13 pmThey not only lost 180-something souls from the plane crash, they also lost another 50 or so from the stampede at the memorial for Suleimani. The Mullahs are literally responsible for the deaths of hundreds in Iran since the general was drone-struck.
Ukraine and Canada ought to sue the regime for the deaths of their citizens. The US paid out over $213,000 per dead passenger after we shot down Flight 655, so Ukraine and Canada shouldn’t accept less than ten times that amount.
Of course it was a missile strike. Planes don’t just burst into flames and explode two minutes after take off, certainly not a relatively new jet that had just undergone maintenance and inspection a few days earlier.
It may have been an accidental launch of a surface-to-air missile, or a panic attack out of fear of US reprisal, but both seem unlikely. Those types of missiles don’t get launched by someone mistakenly pushing a button, and passenger jet that made regular flights in and out Iran is not going to get confused with a B-52.
No, the most plausible explanation was that it was an ill-timed ground-to-ground missile, one like those used in the attacks on the two military bases. Iran probably planned a series of those attacks, but this one particular missile was launched at precisely the wrong time. It wasn’t launched by accident, and it wasn’t an errant missile, but its intended target certainly wasn’t a commercial passenger plane, which happened to be in the wrong air space at the wrong time.
The missile attacks on Iraq and/or Syria probably would have continued had the ill-fated jet not been blown out of the sky, but that does not mean they won’t be resumed. This was an act of incredible incompetence and the result of horrific coincidence. And Iran knows it. That’s why they bulldozed the crash site, to remove any and all evidence of their stupidity and complicity in this tragic event.
Gawain's Ghost (b25cd1) — 1/10/2020 @ 1:19 pmR.I.P. Mike Resnick, science fiction author
Icy (6abb50) — 1/10/2020 @ 1:51 pmMourning the loss of one Canadian not involved in the subject of post:
R.I.P. Neil Peart
urbanleftbehind (139beb) — 1/10/2020 @ 2:05 pmrip Pete Dye
mg (8cbc69) — 1/10/2020 @ 2:13 pmGolf Architect.
R.I.P. Neil Peart, drummer/lyricist for Rush
(I saw Rush in concert eight times. This one hurts.)
Icy (6abb50) — 1/10/2020 @ 2:36 pmSanctions? Who needs sanctions? Only idiots would travel to or do business with Iran. Let Darwin do his job.
nk (dbc370) — 1/10/2020 @ 3:21 pmthere goes the price of saffron.
mg (8cbc69) — 1/10/2020 @ 3:36 pmYou just mad about saffron, mg?
nk (dbc370) — 1/10/2020 @ 3:40 pmLOL, nk.
felipe (023cc9) — 1/10/2020 @ 3:42 pmSay it, mg, say it.
felipe (023cc9) — 1/10/2020 @ 3:44 pmThe most plausible explanation, to my mind, is that the Iranians used their otherwise-surprisingly-harmless ground strikes against the U.S. bases as cover for “accidentally” shooting down this airliner. My guess is that the airliner was carrying one or more important U.S. assets who were fleeing the country, and the Iranians saw this as an opportunity to get rid of them under the cover of plausible deniability and “proportionality.”
Leviticus (44101b) — 1/10/2020 @ 3:58 pmI think the American surveillance was of sufficient clarity that they know exactly what kind of system was used (Soviet era Tor). Ground to ground missile artillery would hopefully not be operated in such a way that it shoots up high, that close to Tehran, because it would be inefficient. That kind of weapon system also has safety windows to verify you’re not shooting in some crazy direction, and though I don’t know how Iran trains on this stuff, that part is very basic. This missile was going up very fast, at incredible speed, rather than out towards a target far away.
I agree with the rest of your analysis though. Iran is panicking and hiding evidence, lying, and generally acting like they don’t understand how information works these days. There’s probably a lot of internal lying and confusion as well, making it harder for decision makers (but they clearly know this was an accidental SAM strike, something Iran has done many times over the years, though usually shooting down their own fighter jets during the Iran Iraq war).
Rather than some incredible fluke of a collision, the Tor system locked on to this aircraft, and someone misidentified its path and intention, and probably its IFF signal, and shot right at this plane (I think the USA is saying they fired two missiles, which makes sense as the TOR holds canisters of 4 missiles, and they would plan for Russian equipment to fail, doubling up for this kind of thing). Someone out there made a decision in a panic.
These guys thought they had just bombed the US military. They are incredibly paranoid about the advanced capabilities of the US military and thought they were about to be overwhelmed with stealth drones. Trump’s decision to attack them, justified or not, should have calculated how the Iranians would respond. But much more importantly, Iran’s leadership should have calculated how idiotic it was to fire missiles at our bases. The fear that would generate and the strain that would cause in their own military was going to be immense, and the risks very high. Human life is too cheap to these old men, tweeting at each other, while hundreds of families lives are crushed and nothing is gained.
Dustin (d9d65a) — 1/10/2020 @ 4:01 pmI’d read that Tom Clancy book. Obviously a bit far fetched, but still interesting to consider. If you’re right, the USA should just own up to the spy operation. Killing all those children and students to get to a few spies would be tremendously evil, but Iran is not above deliberately blowing up passenger jets.
Dustin (d9d65a) — 1/10/2020 @ 4:04 pmDoesn’t seem too far-fetched to me that Iran would know who the spies were without being able to kill them (under normal circumstances). But these were not normal circumstances, and the timing seems way too convenient to me.
It behooves no one well to assume his or her opponents are stupid or incompetent.
Leviticus (44101b) — 1/10/2020 @ 4:06 pmI don’t foreclose the possibility that some neckbearded goat-molester at the AA battery just did it for the fun of it.
nk (dbc370) — 1/10/2020 @ 4:08 pmI’m just mad about saffron
mg (8cbc69) — 1/10/2020 @ 4:08 pmIt’s “human shields” when our opponents hide weapons in schools – fairly so. It would be “human shields,” to my mind, if the US tried to hide its assets on a civilian jet liner in the midst of a free-fire zone.
Leviticus (44101b) — 1/10/2020 @ 4:10 pmWhy does it have to be a U.S. “asset”? Except for the crew and two passengers who were Ukrainians, all the other persons on the plane were Iranian students or emigres. Why couldn’t some of them be dissidents working against the regime from abroad?
I know, I know, because “Hate America First”.
nk (dbc370) — 1/10/2020 @ 4:18 pmLeviticus, it’s one thing to fire rockets from a school. It’s another for people to flee a country, even spies, by getting in a passenger plane. There’s no urgent need to defend oneself from spies fleeing in a passenger plane.
Furthermore, there is no real basis for thinking anyone on that plane was an American spy. And the plane left Tehran 4-5 hours after the missiles were launched at our bases. How would Iran know these spies were going to leave at all, in order for this subterfuge to work? and why not just arrest these people? Iran’s due process rights aren’t exactly an obstacle.
Spying isn’t necessarily a bad thing. I think much of our problems with war over the past 50 years have been from surprises and ignorance, and if we do have a lot of feet on the ground in Iran checking on nuclear weapons development or movement of Iranian leaders, etc, that’s a good thing, even for Iran in most situations.
But we are both speculating so who knows.
Dustin (d9d65a) — 1/10/2020 @ 4:22 pmBREAKING – Iran to announce that CrowdStrike brought down airliner, propose “denuclearization” talks with Trump
Dave (65a95a) — 1/10/2020 @ 4:37 pm@9. That’s why they bulldozed the crash site, to remove any and all evidence of their stupidity and complicity in this tragic event.
That really won’t erase much evidence. The forensics- everything from chemical residue left from an explosive to the damage patterns on the fuselage fragments– and the condition of the remains of the victims- along w/t FDRs will tell the story. Aircraft accident investigators are very ‘Columbo’- apolitical, and if allowed, will piece together the event pattern, if only in the interests of improving civil aviation. For example, that airliner shot down in 2014 over Ukraine by a Russian missile– the investigation teams not only was able to confirm it was a proximity missile, they were able to triangular, using the different locations of microphones on the flight deck, that the warhead exploded a meter or so outside the cockpit. Amazing. These guys are very, very good at their jobs.
______
@19. Doubt it. It’s more likely a matter of ‘friendly fire’ as Iran was on a hair-trigger; pins-and-needles, anticipating any U.S. retaliation.
Case in point: December 7, 1941– ‘During the Attack on Pearl Harbor confused and inexperienced naval gunners downed several US fighter aircraft that were sent from USS Enterprise to bolster the harbor defenses. Army pilot Lieutenant John L. Dains was also killed by friendly fire just after having shot down the first Japanese aircraft of the war.’ -source, wiki-d’oh!
Hell, those societies stone women for affairs and cut off hands for stealing so wht the heck, it would be smart international PR to just execute the missile crew for the error. What’s a few more dead middle easterners, more or less.
DCSCA (797bc0) — 1/10/2020 @ 4:45 pmIf Putin says there was no missle, will Trump change his story?
John B Boddie (286277) — 1/10/2020 @ 5:33 pmhttps://www.reuters.com/article/us-iran-crash-canada-russia/russia-says-no-grounds-to-blame-iran-for-ukrainian-plane-crash-tass-idUSKBN1Z91F5
It’s a dilemma.
nk (dbc370) — 1/10/2020 @ 5:38 pmI was in a hurry today and want everyone to know that I don’t wish death on the person who shot down the Ukrainian plane (unless he did it on purpose… which I doubt).
Here in the US I’d guess the worst you’d get would be a time at hard labor in a military prison. The burden of knowing your mistake caused innocents to die would be heavy to anyone with a heart.
Not to excuse the mistake, or ineptitude, it could just be that the Iranian systems were not up to the level of US ECM’s and the leaders were too busy and afraid to think about blocking inbound and outbound flights and left it to some poor loyal bastard to figure out.
steveg (354706) — 1/10/2020 @ 5:44 pmThe chance of a ground to ground missile hitting a plane isn’t zero but it is awful darn close
Object A at speed Y
Object B at speed Z
Launched at different angles meet at point X
Its like getting hit by a meteor while having a glass of wine in a hot air balloon
steveg (354706) — 1/10/2020 @ 5:52 pm@31. Meh. It’s very ‘bad-vertising’ to have the missiles you peddle to become best known for bringing down unarmed civilian airliners.
DCSCA (797bc0) — 1/10/2020 @ 5:55 pm“Scrubbed”
Like, with a bulldozer?
__ _
Eliot Higgins
harkin (d6cfee) — 1/10/2020 @ 6:55 pm@EliotHiggins
More and more reports from people with access to the crash site that the wreckage has been bulldozed into a pile, making a truly forensic investigation next to impossible
Saffrons mad about #metoo
steveg (354706) — 1/10/2020 @ 6:57 pm36, meh, just another Maxim magazine centerfold mad about potential unfulfilled.
urbanleftbehind (495d2c) — 1/10/2020 @ 7:27 pmhttps://pjmedia.com/trending/congressman-who-lost-legs-to-ied-walks-to-podium-to-torch-dems-for-being-cowards-after-soleimani-hit/
mg (8cbc69) — 1/10/2020 @ 8:00 pmIran must be reading this blog:
BREAKING- Iran Admits It Shot Down Ukrainian Aircraft Unintentionally
Full text of explanation statement says it all; confusion, heighten tensions; closeness to sensitive facilities, etc., blaming human error.
Similar to December 7, 1941 when ‘during the attack on Pearl Harbor confused and inexperienced naval gunners downed several U.S. fighter aircraft that were sent from USS Enterprise to bolster the harbor defenses.’ Japan created the circumstances for that incident; Trump created the circumstances for this.
Now, express regret, mange reparations [lots of oil $ and pallet cash available for that] – and hold The Great Satan Trump’s and Pompeass’ idiocy for the ollateral damage hell of these first ten days of 2020.
DCSCA (797bc0) — 1/10/2020 @ 8:42 pm
harkin (d6cfee) — 1/10/2020 @ 8:45 pmFarnaz Fassihi
@farnazfassihi
BREAKING: #IRAN admits shooting down the Ukrainian Airplane says human error, accidental, the plane turned toward an IRGC military base.
#IranPlaneCrash
_
@39.Postscript- re-#31 ‘Course an upside of this admission is Iran just made Putin and Russia look like an azzholes. No doubt Vlad is not glad.
DCSCA (797bc0) — 1/10/2020 @ 8:52 pmJavad Zarif
@JZarif
A sad day. Preliminary conclusions of internal investigation by Armed Forces:
Human error at time of crisis caused by US adventurism led to disaster
Our profound regrets, apologies and condolences to our people, to the families of all victims, and to other affected nations.
__ _
neontaster
@neontaster
·
By “US adventurism” you mean “Iranian attack on US forces.”
__ _
Cain
@tellpost
·
A mistake indeed. Humbling, however, that you, unlike @realDonaldTrump, are accepting accountability for the mistake.
__ _
Hicham
harkin (d6cfee) — 1/10/2020 @ 8:52 pm@ItsHicham
·
They only admitted after footage of the missile hitting the plane emereged. They refused to give the black box at first
__ _
@39 “Similar to December 7, 1941 when ‘during the attack on Pearl Harbor confused and inexperienced naval gunners downed several U.S. fighter aircraft that were sent from USS Enterprise to bolster the harbor defenses.’ Japan created the circumstances for that incident; Trump created the circumstances for this.”
You can’t be serious
Calfed (f67f21) — 1/10/2020 @ 9:03 pm@43. Clearluy you’re not.
DCSCA (797bc0) — 1/10/2020 @ 9:19 pmAre all those leftists and DCSCA still going to blame the President for Iran shooting down a civilian airliner?
NJRob (4d595c) — 1/10/2020 @ 9:32 pmThere are, of course, stark differences between the attack on Pearl Harbor and the incident in Tehran. The most obvious, of course, is that THE JAPANESE ACTUALLY ATTACKED PEARL HARBOR AND SANK EIGHT BATTLESHIPS AND KILLED 2400 PEOPLE. The US did not attack Tehran at any time and the only people who died did so at the hands of the Iranians.
Nobody forced the Iranians to shoot a dozen missiles into Iraq to avenge the death of a terrorist scumbag whom they employed to roam the middle east planning and directing attacks which resulted in the death of innocent civilians. That they could not carry out an attack that they planned and directed without shooting down a civilian airliner taking off from their own airport is nobody’s fault but their own.
Frankly, blaming Trump for Iranian incompetence because he made them nervous strikes me as being spectacularly unserious. And comparing what happened in Tehran to Pearl Harbor is just plain silly.
Calfed (f67f21) — 1/10/2020 @ 9:46 pmI object to them (and by “them” I mean the Iranians and their fellow travelers in the media) calling it an accident. The missiles were not fired accidentally. Nobody tripped and fell on the button. They were fired intentionally, with the intent to shoot down an airplane. It was the bad luck of the poor people aboard the plane that it was not the kind of plane the murderous scum wanted to shoot down.
nk (dbc370) — 1/10/2020 @ 9:54 pmThe incompetence that the Iranians displayed in being unable to carry out a missile attack that they planned, directed, and executed on their own time schedule without shooting down a civilians airliner taking off from their own airport makes me shudder to think of what might happen should they ever develop nuclear weapons.
Calfed (f67f21) — 1/10/2020 @ 10:09 pm@46. Nice try. Similar to this confessed confusion and regret in the Terhan tragedy, during the attack on Pearl Harbor ‘confused and inexperienced naval gunners downed several U.S. fighter aircraft that were sent from USS Enterprise to bolster the harbor defenses.’ – source, wikifriendlyfire
Japan created the circumstances for that incident; Trump created the circumstances for this one. But hey, if you want to blame the U.S. Navy for the accidental shootdowns in Hawaii bckin ’41 and give the Idiot Trump a pass for creating the still unsubstantiated ‘imminence’ of circumstances with respect to Iran, your comedy is welcomed.
DCSCA (797bc0) — 1/10/2020 @ 10:09 pm@45. Trump is not America; had the bumbling imbecile not popped that dude last Friday in a fit-of-pique, those 176 civilians who were shot out of the sky on Tuesday would still be alive.
End of story.
DCSCA (797bc0) — 1/10/2020 @ 10:14 pmit was not the kind of plane the murderous scum wanted to shoot down.
If that’s even the case. We’re talking about terrorists whose usual method of retaliation is to target civilians. They very well have known what kind plane they were shooting at, and it was a lot softer target than a hotel in Mumbai.
nk (dbc370) — 1/10/2020 @ 10:14 pm@48. Chances are you were born shuddering and don’t realize it. Take note- particularly of the USAF accidents:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_military_nuclear_accidents
DCSCA (797bc0) — 1/10/2020 @ 10:19 pm@45 Maybe you haven’t seen any of the Star Wars prequels but that’s sadly the reality of the situation. Darth Trump’s Sith powers are so strong he can manipulate the strong and courageous men of the Iranian military from anywhere in the world. Nada, Ilhan Windu, and Obi-Whine Cortez are strong in the force but they can’t always protect everyone.
frosty (f27e97) — 1/10/2020 @ 10:20 pmI believe most rational people can distinguish between how a naval gunner reacted to an actual attack which resulted in eight capital ships being sunk and 2400 people being killed and how the Iranians reacted to no attack, no damage and no one being killed. Except for the innocents that the Iranians themselves killed.
You see, DCSCA, if we had sent in an airstrike and the airliner had been shot down during or shortly after that airstrike you would have a better argument. But, of course, we didn’t and you don’t.
Calfed (f67f21) — 1/10/2020 @ 10:21 pm@51. Look on the bright side, nk: per your #31, after Putin’s Russia comes out and says it wasn’t a missile, Iran just kicked Vlad in the gonads and made him and hi comrades at TASS sound like total azzes.
DCSCA (797bc0) — 1/10/2020 @ 10:26 pm@54. You believe wrong. Hair-trigger is hair-trigger. Nice try, though.
DCSCA (797bc0) — 1/10/2020 @ 10:27 pmWhy else do you think Trump babbled ‘it wasn’t us, it wasn’t us’ in his ramblings; because of the confusions his actions created- from radar tracings, military air traffic alone the borders ad his own idiotic rhetoric– it was. Trump created the circumstances for this.
What’s the embassy ‘threat’ excuse count today, Donald? 5, 7– maybe a McDonald’s or two as well.
Helsinki.
The man’s an international ass, a pathological liar and an impetuous idiot. But hey, NATOME is a nice name for a mistress, eh Donald?
DCSCA (797bc0) — 1/10/2020 @ 10:38 pm@6. Frum is myopic; ‘some’ Americans are certainly paying for it- the cost of the troop deployments, the displaced families, etc. But so far, they’re at least still alive.
DCSCA (797bc0) — 1/10/2020 @ 10:48 pmHmm. I don’t think history began last Friday. Why does Trump deserve the ultimate blame, and not the people who put him in power?
How about this:
If the bumbling imbeciles had not nominated the obviously unfit and mentally deranged Trump in a fit-of-pique, those 176 civilians who were shot out of the sky on Tuesday would still be alive.
Dave (1bb933) — 1/11/2020 @ 1:34 am@59. bumbling imbeciles
Hmmm: shorter: Republicans.
DCSCA (797bc0) — 1/11/2020 @ 1:37 amTrump’s “MO” throughout his life has been to leave a trail of “collateral damage” behind him to let others sift through the wreckage of destroyed lives. From small businesses he stiffed forced to go under thanks to unpaid bills to casino suppliers gone bust, Trump university suckers and so on, and so on, etc., etc. Except this time, he got people killed.
DCSCA (797bc0) — 1/11/2020 @ 1:48 amno new taxes
mg (8cbc69) — 1/11/2020 @ 4:14 amhey dave fluck off
mg (8cbc69) — 1/11/2020 @ 4:15 amI’m just mad about saffron
mg (8cbc69) — 1/10/2020 @ 4:08 pm
You have competition.
nk (dbc370) — 1/11/2020 @ 6:29 amAnd yet you still gave him your primary vote!
I guess if you want to “neuter the modern conservative movement,” you have to break a few eggs, eh?
Dave (1bb933) — 1/11/2020 @ 6:49 amCalfed (f67f21) — 1/10/2020 @ 10:21 pm
Calfed, you won the argument handily with your first rebuttal. Don’t let DCSCA’s squeals draw you into a pig wrestling session. Typical PW session w/DCSCA:
DCSCA: This is blah blah, blah.
Anybody: No it isn’t because of a, b, c.
DCSCA: Except it is!
Anybody: No, because of a, ,b ,c.
DCSA: Except it is, you lose!
–ad nauseum–
Been there, done that.
felipe (023cc9) — 1/11/2020 @ 7:59 amHmmm, after taking all due (24 seconds) consideration of DCSCA’s comments (that I have read minus the ones I have blocked)I believe This is all you need to know about DCSCA. It explains the ostinato of entertainment quotes.
felipe (023cc9) — 1/11/2020 @ 8:18 amWell said frosty. The force is strong in this one.
Amazing the powers of Trump that it makes his political adversaries upset that he had the military eliminate a terrorist that caused the deaths of hundreds of Americans and was constantly attacking American positions.
NJRob (4d595c) — 1/11/2020 @ 8:32 am@65. You guess wrong: Helsinki.
He can eat all the chocolate cake he wants– as long as he doesn’t try to bake and stays out of the kitchen.
@68. Even more amazing is how his loyalists make excuses for his stupidity. If only they’d crashed and burned on Fifth Avenue, it couldda been perfect for ‘ya. Worse than sad. Sick.
DCSCA (797bc0) — 1/11/2020 @ 11:42 am@67. A Christian is supposed to turn the other cheek. Feel free to kiss mine.
DCSCA (797bc0) — 1/11/2020 @ 12:05 pmPoor DCSCA, all he wants is approval. So misunderstood. What would we do without you?
felipe (023cc9) — 1/11/2020 @ 12:20 pmAnd Putin ROFLHAO
frosty (8221cd) — 1/11/2020 @ 12:40 pmToo bad Eminem had to be the one white rapper to make it out of the mitten. Wed have also been spared Kid Rock’s hissy fits.
urbanleftbehind (29864b) — 1/11/2020 @ 12:50 pm@71. Pucker up.
“Nothing gives one person so much advantage over another as to remain always cool and unruffled under all circumstances.” – T. Jefferson
DCSCA (797bc0) — 1/11/2020 @ 2:14 pmCalfed (f67f21) — 1/10/2020 @ 10:21 pm
See, calfed? That’s how you do it.
felipe (023cc9) — 1/11/2020 @ 2:40 pm47. nk (dbc370) — 1/10/2020 @ 9:54 pm
Iran now says that the person or people who shot down the plane thought it was a cruise missile.
I’m not so sure. That’s what they were supposed to be expecting, if they knew what they were doing, but I don’t know that that’s exactly what the people manning the air defense system there thought. This could be another form of cover up.
The United States never, since Gulf War I, sends airplanes to drop bombs without first taking out the air defense systems that could shoot down the planes (or satisfying itself one doesn’t exist) so the first thing would have been a cruise missile.
The missiles sent into Iraq were timed to be fired at exactly the same time in the middle of the night as when Soleimani and 14 others traveling in two cars were killed. The plane was shot down about three hours later. That was another piece of stupidity. A U.S. response, should one happen, wouldn’t come so fast, at least if you believed it depended on whether or not any Americans were killed – the higher ranking people in Iran maybe knew this and deliberately tried to avoid doing so, but the lower ranking people, because they were put on alert, would have been expecting something almost as soon as the Iranian missiles were launched.
The airline probably didn’t even know Iran had launched an attack earlier that night. Ukrainian president Zelensky says that other European airlines were taking off and landing at Tehran’s airport. The wife of the captain told him not to fly but seeing an imminent possibility of danger was beyond most people.
Sammy Finkelman (2cb3c3) — 1/11/2020 @ 4:47 pm2. A missed opportunity; the smart move now by Iran now would be to express regret, manage reparations, remind the world that the climate was created by the assassination of their hero general by the Great Satan Trump, who created this situation, then corral the missile team – military or proxy– have a quick trial in the Tehran airport lounge– and execute them.
More or less as predicted. They’ve copped to the shootdown, reiterated Great Satan Trump created the climate for same and now CNN/MSNBC reports Iranian authorities have arrested those they deem responsible for the launchings for trial.
Don’t forget to book the airport lounge, fellas.
DCSCA (797bc0) — 1/14/2020 @ 10:49 am