Patterico's Pontifications

12/7/2019

Weekend Open Thread

Filed under: General — Dana @ 9:48 am



[guest post by Dana]

Feel free to talk about anything you think is newsworthy or might interest readers.

I’ll start.

First news item: Uh-oh, Democrats, not again:

2010:

The authors quote Reid as saying privately that Obama, as a black candidate, could be successful thanks, in part, to his “light-skinned” appearance and speaking patterns “with no Negro dialect, unless he wanted to have one.”

[…]

“Reid was convinced, in fact, that Obama’s race would help him more than hurt him in a bid for the Democratic nomination,” they write.

2019:

While discussing his 2020 competitors with CBS’s Gayle King in an interview that aired Friday morning, Bloomberg said, “Cory Booker endorsed me a number of times, and I endorsed Cory Booker a number of times. He’s very well spoken, he’s got some good ideas.”

Second news item: What she said, what she didn’t say (watch video before commenting):

People on social media are piling on her for suggesting that a racist atrocity somehow “hijacked” the meaning of a flag that was carried into battle against the United States by a regime founded to protect its citizens’ prerogative to commit racist atrocities. The Charleston killer knew what that flag meant to black Americans, which is why he embraced it. But Haley’s point, then and now, was that over time many white southerners had come to embrace the flag for more innocuous reasons, as a symbol of southern culture generally. Her point about “hijacking” is that the murders reasserted the flag’s meaning as a symbol of racist violence. Well-meaning whites couldn’t properly look at it the same way afterward as an anodyne symbol of the south, drained of its history.

She’s under no illusions about the flag’s heritage. You know how I know that? Because she talked about it on the day she called for removing the flag from the South Carolina statehouse grounds.

Third item: Say what??

Fourth news item: Maybe it’s time we stop letting them train here?

Six Saudi nationals were reportedly detained for questioning after a Saudi Arabian aviation student killed three people and injured eight when he opened fire at the Pensacola Naval Base on Friday. The New York Times reports that while they believe the shooter acted alone, at least some of the Saudi nationals called in for questioning were seen filming the entire shooting. No one has confirmed if any of them were involved. SITE Intelligence, a group that monitors jihadist activity, also reported that a man with the gunman’s name, which was identified by the Times as Mohammed Saeed Slshamrani, posted a Twitter message hours before the shooting in which he referred to the U.S. as a “nation of evil” for its support of Israel.

Fifth news item: Seriously?? James Comey??:

I would be a coward if I didn’t speak out': Comey blasts Mattis for silence on Trump.

Added: A date that will live in infamy:

Have a great weekend.

(Cross-posted at The Jury Talks Back.)

–Dana

183 Responses to “Weekend Open Thread”

  1. Good morning.

    Dana (643cd6)

  2. I understand DeSantis’ sentiments as expressed following the incident, but he was adept enough untether himself from many see as a Trump weak spot and not get caught up by potential ’24 challengers Hawley and Cotton

    urbanleftbehind (481e17)

  3. “ That would mean that television networks take impeachment as seriously as a civic matter as they now treat it as an entertainment matter. Fox, MSNBC and the others should push opinion-based reporting to the side, and place journalism-based news in prime time. They all must take responsibility for their audience understanding the facts, more than simply rallying its side to its own partisan understanding. Partisan networks may not be a bad thing in general. They are certainly a bad thing in moments like this.
    Social media platforms have responsibilities here as well. We don’t yet know the consequences of those platforms forgoing political ads in the context of an entire election season — even as, and importantly, some are experimenting with this right now. But impeachment could be an important moment to experiment even more fully. This is precisely the kind of question for which we do not need interested ad-driven spin. It is precisely the moment when Facebook and Twitter together could take the lead in turning away ads aimed at rallying a base or trashing the opposition. Whether or not political ads make sense on social media platforms during an election—at least for races not likely to be targeted by foreign influence—there is no reason for them here. America’s understanding of this critical event could come through the organic spread of the views of Americans—and it is just possible that the organic spread alone is not as poisonous as the spread spiked by advertising.”

    https://news.yahoo.com/impeachment-different-more-dangerous-115619138.html

    IOW: ‘holy cr*p this impeachment deal isn’t going the way we planned. They aren’t listening to the DNC scripts bring read in the msm and people are seeking information from trusted sources who are allowed to promote alternative views, encouraging the rubes to talk amongst themselves without our ability to direct, referee and censor. We need to double down on the specious claim that we’re not biased while at the same time have the corporate overlords filter out anything off-message’
    _

    harkin (337580)

  4. Los Angeles is already a sanctuary city, so it stands to reason that city leaders would also deem it a “Welcoming City” for resettling refugees.

    Dana (643cd6)

  5. Axios
    @axios
    We’ve deleted a tweet saying that Nikki Haley said the Confederate flag represents “service, sacrifice and heritage”.

    Our story has been updated to reflect that Haley said: “People saw [the flag] as service, and sacrifice and heritage”
    __ _

    The lie is halfway around the world while the truth is still putting its……..
    _

    harkin (337580)

  6. FDR knew…

    Impeach him! 😉

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  7. Dana- perhaps that ‘Third Item’ should be on the thread about “Bananas.” 😉
    _______

    Memo to Nikki- remind the right wing southern dummies the swastika was once a ‘symbol divinity and spirituality’ as well as ‘good luck’ in Indian religions– before it was hijacked by their evildoer bretherns and turned into the flag with a twisted cross…

    _______

    Bloomberg.

    Watch him.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  8. Third item: Yet another occasion to ask those who reflexively defend Trump as “better than the alternative” etc.: Do you really think he displays the mental acuity to be running anything for the next five years?

    Radegunda (7d930a)

  9. Do you really think he displays the mental acuity to be running anything for the next five years?“

    Heck no.

    Now tell me someone the Dems could nominate who will have the country in a better comparative place in 2024.

    harkin (337580)

  10. Katy Tur
    @KatyTurNBC
    Wall-to-wall impeachment coverage is not changing any minds. Here’s how journalists can reach the undecided.
    __ _

    It’s just Todd
    @tfulcher
    I always thought it was the job of journalists to report the news, not to change the minds of the undecided.
    __ _

    The Partyman
    @PartymanRandy
    Like firefighters running toward a fire, journalists run to influence undecided voters.
    __ _

    MementoMāori 💀
    @MementoMaori
    ·
    “Democracy Dies When the Public Doesn’t Accept Our Narrative”
    __ _

    Jason Pritchard
    @Pritchis5
    ·
    Replying to
    @KatyTurNBC
    Wasn’t a
    @realDonaldTrump
    at first but now thanks to the wacky dems and the embarrassingly biased media I can’t wait to vote for him in 2020. So good job changing my mind!

    _

    harkin (337580)

  11. Democrats trump derangement syndrome has so impressed african-americans that in the 3 latest polls over 30% now support president trump! Hellbot lost electoral college when trump got only 8% of black vote. It seems blacks that now have jobs don’t hate trump as much as you never trumpers and old white democrats with t.d.s.

    asset (04f4ec)

  12. “Like firefighters running toward a fire, journalists run to influence undecided voters.”

    I disagree. If journalists were attempting to influence voters it would not be necessary to have foreigners do the job. Nobody would ask the Russians for Hillary’s emails if American journalists had done that job. Nobody would ask the Ukrainians for the Biden family finance records if American journalists were doing that job.

    pouncer (df6448)

  13. Heck no.

    … “but forget about trying to nominate another Republican, and heaven forfend that the country be in the hands of a mentally stable person who isn’t a pathological narcissist showing signs of dementia, but who has some policy aims that I don’t like!!”

    Radegunda (7d930a)

  14. Asset, job approval is not the same thing as votes. Those numbers are actually lower than the last GOP president’s at the same point in the presidency. Black labor participation on election day was about 62%. Today it’s also about 62%.

    But keep basing your understanding of reality on Ace of Spades because he can’t be that angry unless he’s got a real good reason (cough cough ad revenue cough).

    Dustin (cafb36)

  15. Update on the Pensacola naval base shooting:

    The Saudi student who fatally shot three people at a U.S. naval base in Florida hosted a dinner party earlier in the week where he and three others watched videos of mass shootings, a U.S. official told The Associated Press on Saturday.

    One of the three students who attended the dinner party videotaped outside the building while the shooting was taking place at Naval Air Station Pensacola on Friday, said the U.S. official, who spoke on condition of anonymity after being briefed by federal authorities. Two other Saudi students watched from a car, the official said.

    The official said 10 Saudi students were being held on the base Saturday while several others were unaccounted for.

    U.S. officials had previously told the AP they were investigating possible links to terrorism.

    Dana (643cd6)

  16. Unbelievable:

    The social media posts were ominous: A small-framed man in a mask and hoodie was seen behaving strangely on several occasions in an Eagan park. Word was that he was a predator out to hurt people.

    A post about three such incidents last summer on the Eagan Police Facebook page was shared 282 times and garnered 181 comments. Other community Facebook pages shared the post. Residents left related inquiries on friends’ pages and TV news stations picked up the story.

    Days later, a woman called police saying the “man” in the mask was in fact her 11-year-old son, a shy boy who liked to play make-believe in the park near their home.

    “I figured [police] would probably come talk to him and talk to us,” said Elizabeth Scott. “And then it just spiraled out of control.”

    Before the family knew it, Dakota County prosecutors charged her son with disorderly conduct and misdemeanor fifth-degree assault.

    […]

    n court last week, District Judge Michael Mayer dismissed the assault charge. He withheld judgment on the disorderly conduct charge but ordered a kind of probation: 10 hours of chores for his mother over 90 days.

    He won’t have a record. But Leverson said he wasn’t acquitted because, according to the judge, an 11-year-old should have realized he was scaring people the first time it happened.

    Dana (643cd6)

  17. Leave aside that MediaMatters is reporting this but, just this year Toensing-Digenova have made 103 total combined appearances on FoxNews (37 joint interviews, 28 solo diGenova appearance, and one solo Toensing appearance), but have made zero appearances since November 13th, which was the first day of public testimony starring Kent and Taylor.
    Regarding Giuliani’s “documentary” into Biden or corruption or something, Ms. Nemtsova has a clearer picture about who these “top officials” are that Giuliani is using.

    Indeed, Giuliani’s choice of guest stars in his would-be reality show, and his wider cast of sources, caused shock among many in Kyiv’s establishment who know their questionable backgrounds in considerable detail.

    Here’s a bit more.

    It seems that everybody in Giuliani’s Ukrainian camp has his own agenda. Take MPs Oleksandr Dubinsky, a member of the ruling Servant of the People party, and Andrii Derkach, who was educated at the Dzerzhinsky Higher School of the KGB intelligence service in Moscow.
    According to his official biography, Derkach served as the head of the technical department in the Pervomayskaya Division of the Soviet Strategic Rocket forces in 1989. Derkach also served in the Security Service of Ukraine or SBU in Dnepropetrovsk, when his father, General Leonid Derkach, the future head of that service, was responsible for technical defense of information.
    In January 2014, shortly before the Euromaidan “Revolution of Dignity” ousted pro-Russian President Victor Yanukovych from Ukraine, Derkach as a member of Yanukovych’s Party of Regions voted for so-called “dictatorship laws” targeting social freedoms. A survivor of political storms, Derkach managed to make his way back to the Rada after the revolution and find a new target for criticism: he has been accusing Ukrainian politicians and diplomats of “illegal interference” in U.S. elections since 2017.
    Derkach has collected information about the National Anti-Corruption Bureau of Ukraine, or NABU, hinting that its officials consulted with U.S. diplomats and the FBI about Trump Campaign Chairman Paul Manafort’s corrupt practices and kickbacks when he worked for Yanukovych. This fall, Derkach showed what he called indications that NABU had passed some documents related to Burisma in an unlawful way to the U.S. embassy.
    Both Derkach and Dubinsky clearly want to be heard by Giuliani and his client in the White House. They organized a press conference in early October after meeting with Giuliani, and Dubinsky described plans to create a commission at the Rada to investigate the plundering and laundering of billions of dollars from the Ukrainian budget during the presidencies of both Yanukovych and his post-Euromaidan successor, Petro Poroshenko.
    “Dubinsky is the most scandalous and toxic member of Zelensky’s party, a former journalist with dubious wealth, nothing will stop him from getting involved in shadowy corrupt deals,” Gumenyuk told The Daily Beast. The Ukrainian media group Bihus.Info has published investigative reports into Dubinsky’s allegedly ill-gotten gains.

    Funny how Giuliani’s sources have a history with the Party of Regions, the pro-Putin political party that was disbanded after the 2014 popular revolution, and how they always seem to help Putin and hurt Ukrainians and Ukrainian sovereignty, and I doubt that Giuliani is a rogue; he’s doing all this with his “client’s” blessing and direction. Oh, and here’s another Ukrainian sleazebag that Giuliani is using:

    One more character in Giuliani’s TV team made many Ukrainians’ jaws drop: former parliamentarian Andrii Artemenko. Ukraine stripped Artemenko of his citizenship in 2017 and officially expelled him from the State Rada for proposing to rent Crimea to Russia. (Moscow seized and annexed the strategic peninsula in 2014 and Ukraine wants it back.)
    On Tuesday, an OAN press release showed that Artemenko will appear in the first episode of Giuliani’s series. Artemenko previously has told The Daily Beast that he played “the key role” in helping Trump’s investigations. “Artemenko was actually helping Giuliani a lot to organize all the meetings in Kyiv,” Bereza told The Daily Beast.

    Artemenko was one of the guys who was involved in the “peace plan” between Urkaine and Russia that was submitted to Michael Flynn and would’ve basically given Putin everything he wanted (the other players involved were felons Michael Cohen and Felix Sater).

    Paul Montagu (00daa1)

  18. Now tell me someone the Dems could nominate who will have the country in a better comparative place in 2024.

    More to the point, which other candidate besides Donald Trump will be “looking very strongly at sinks and showers, and other elements of bathrooms.”

    We all know the answer: none of them.

    #MAGA

    Dave (1bb933)

  19. She’s talking about the Confederate Battle flag which was borne into battle by men who believed in States Rights, and the right of South Carolina to be Independent. It didn’t become part of the SOUth Carolina State flag until Fritz Hollings made it so. Of course, Fritz was never called a “racist” while he was a US Senator because he was a loyal D. Just like Byrd.

    rcocean (1a839e)

  20. Y’know whenever I want a fact-filled, truthful account of what Trump said or did, I go to the Washington Post. Their first name is “Objectivity”. NOT. Trump engages in self-deprecating humor and the Press just goes “WTH?” or takes it literally. Depending on which response makes Trump look worse.

    And it is December 7th, a date that will live in Infamy. Its on this date, FDR did a little Happy Dance. He’d FINALLY gotten his wish – war. Now, he could draft millions in the Military and send 400,000 Americans to their death, while toasting “Uncle Joe”.

    rcocean (1a839e)

  21. “We have a situation where we’re looking very strongly at sinks and showers, and other elements of bathrooms”

    Could he be confusing Article 2 and *Number* 2?

    Dave (050ab0)

  22. I added a tweet from Axios about why they pulled the misleading Nikki Haley tweet in the post.

    Dana (643cd6)

  23. He’d FINALLY gotten his wish – war. Now, he could draft millions in the Military and send 400,000 Americans to their death, while toasting “Uncle Joe”.

    Did he have a secret deal worked out with Hitler to declare war on us four days later?

    Diabolical!

    Dave (050ab0)

  24. Y’know whenever I want a fact-filled, truthful account of what Trump said or did, I go to the Washington Post. Their first name is “Objectivity”. NOT. Trump engages in self-deprecating humor and the Press just goes “WTH?” or takes it literally. Depending on which response makes Trump look worse.

    And it is December 7th, a date that will live in Infamy. Its on this date, FDR did a little Happy Dance. He’d FINALLY gotten his wish – war. Now, he could draft millions in the Military and send 400,000 Americans to their death, while toasting “Uncle Joe”.

    rcocean (1a839e) — 12/7/2019 @ 2:48 pm

    How dare people give Trump a hard time when he complains about orange colored skin and toilet flushing! We must be as objective and fair to Trump as possible.

    Also Pearl Harbor was an inside job because democrat.

    Dustin (cafb36)

  25. 14, 19.

    I’m not stopping you from putting up someone who you think will convince Republicans to change horses mid-stream.

    Have at it and oh yeah you’ll be handing the White House to the Dems.

    harkin (337580)

  26. Happy Name day to all the Pearls on this Pearl Harbor Day!

    Remind me, again, what nationality were the 9/11 terrorists?
    And what were they studying in the United States?
    And why is the corrupt criminal traitor cretin Trump letting their ilk back in again?

    nk (dbc370)

  27. And who gives a plate of refried grits about the Confederate flag? Bury it with Bobby Lee and fuhgedaboudit!

    nk (dbc370)


  28. Ben Shapiro
    @benshapiro

    Remember everyone, if the shooter is a suspected white supremacist, we must blame conservatives who oppose white supremacy. If the shooter is a suspected Islamist terrorist, we must blame guns.
    _

    harkin (337580)

  29. State’s right to own people unhindered. South Carolina’s right to be independent of anybody hindering it from continuing slavery.

    The stars and bars was added in 1961, just about the time that “heritage” was becoming synonymous with opposing civil rights.

    Victor (a225f9)

  30. If the shooter is a suspected Islamist terrorist, we must blame guns.

    If the shooter is a suspected Islamist terrorist, we must blame the corrupt criminal traitor cretin Trump who let him in, and that’s an indisputable fact, not sarcasm. Damn yellow pansy, what good is he?

    nk (dbc370)

  31. Its on this date, FDR did a little Happy Dance. He’d FINALLY gotten his wish – war.

    Right, because war against Hitler was not going to happen had Pearl Harbor not happened. He was just going to get his lebensraum and call it a day.

    Paul Montagu (00daa1)

  32. Funny thing about being one of those independent sovereign Confederate states. Your independence and sovereignty didn’t extend to keeping slaves out of your state. From the Confederate Constitution:

    (3) The Confederate States may acquire new territory; and Congress shall have power to legislate and provide governments for the inhabitants of all territory belonging to the Confederate States, lying without the limits of the several Sates; and may permit them, at such times, and in such manner as it may by law provide, to form States to be admitted into the Confederacy. In all such territory the institution of negro slavery, as it now exists in the Confederate States, shall be recognized and protected be Congress and by the Territorial government; and the inhabitants of the several Confederate States and Territories shall have the right to take to such Territory any slaves lawfully held by them in any of the States or Territories of the Confederate States.

    Victor (a225f9)

  33. The Confederacy was all about race-based slavery. Nothing else. That States’ rights stuff is all moonshine.
    1. The slave owners wanted their slaves.
    2. The non-slave owner poor white trash wanted somebody to look down on.
    3. It’s that simple.

    nk (dbc370)

  34. @20. Shorter: traitors to the United States of America.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  35. She’s talking about the Confederate Battle flag which was borne into battle by men who believed in States Rights, and the right of South Carolina to be Independent.

    The war was explicitly about a group of states that wanted to keep human beings in captivity, held as personal property by other human beings and accorded no rights. “States rights” was just the phony baloney excuse.
    Switching over to the Pensacola shooter, it sure smells like terrorism.

    During school breaks, he would travel home to Saudi Arabia, the Pentagon officials said. When he returned to the United States in February, friends and colleagues noticed that he had become more religious, said the person briefed on the investigation.
    […]
    The SITE Intelligence Group, which monitors jihadist activity, cited a Twitter account with a name matching the gunman that had posted a “will” calling the United States a “nation of evil” and criticizing its support for Israel.

    It would help to know if he yelled “Allahu Akhbar!” while firing his guns. At least one civilian died, a high school kid who was in the class and looking to get into the Navy flight school. Yeah, it’s terrorism.
    And this points to a larger problem, which is this: We have too many law-breaking Saudi nationals in our schools and colleges and they are getting away with their crimes and not facing American justice, thanks to the Saudi government. The Oregonian found seventeen cases.

    To date, The Oregonian/OregonLive has found 17 cases across the U.S. and Canada where university students from Saudi Arabia facing serious criminal charges have disappeared. They include men, from ages 19 to 28 at the time, accused of rape, manslaughter and felony hit-and-run. Some of these cases go as far back as 1988. State and federal officials, including prosecutors, Homeland Security investigators and the FBI, have confirmed that at least eight of these defendants, including three from Oregon, have returned to Saudi Arabia or left North America. Not all of them come from affluent or politically connected families. For example, Abdulrahman Sameer Noorah, accused of killing Portland teen Fallon Smart, was raised by a single mother, a kindergarten teacher, in the Saudi city of Jeddah, according to court records and interviews.

    Trump is too much of a suck-up to bin Salman, so it’s up to Congress to seriously reconsider current law regarding bringing in Saudi nationals.

    Paul Montagu (00daa1)

  36. Funny thing about being one of those independent sovereign Confederate states. Your independence and sovereignty didn’t extend to keeping slaves out of your state. From the Confederate Constitution:

    (3) The Confederate States may acquire new territory; and Congress shall have power to legislate and provide governments for the inhabitants of all territory belonging to the Confederate States, lying without the limits of the several Sates; and may permit them, at such times, and in such manner as it may by law provide, to form States to be admitted into the Confederacy. In all such territory the institution of negro slavery, as it now exists in the Confederate States, shall be recognized and protected be Congress and by the Territorial government; and the inhabitants of the several Confederate States and Territories shall have the right to take to such Territory any slaves lawfully held by them in any of the States or Territories of the Confederate States.

    Victor (a225f9) — 12/7/2019 @ 5:02 pm

    That’s particularly hilarious. So it was provably not about states rights.

    Now, I don’t think it was 100% black and white. If someone, union or confederate, came into my town and threatened my family, I might defend my community without prioritizing the big picture issue. But the big picture is pretty black and white. The best defense the confederacy has would be familiar today. Whatabouts.

    Dustin (cafb36)

  37. I can just see a low hanging “whatabout” for team stars and bars that crops up every middle of September. Might not be popular opinion amongst my so called gente, but if that’s what it takes, may Six Flags amusement parks become One Flag Amusement parks.

    urbanleftbehind (481e17)

  38. “… this person in no way shape or form represents the feelings of the Saudi people who love the American people.”

    Feel the luv!

    Dave (1bb933)

  39. Trump’s alter ego speaks out on the nation’s toilet crisis, and none too soon…

    Sometimes we has to flush filth pits over & OVER! Tremenders problems precious! Yes yes very tricksy! Splash down the pail but first just a drips! But not enough! Still not enough! More water! We NEEDS it! Five pails or tens! Makes it go away! Go awaaay! Too much we sees! Nasty!

    Paul Montagu (00daa1)

  40. I encourage everyone to watch the Ken Burns documentary, read the biographies of Stonewall Jackson, Nathan Bedford Forrest, William Tecumseh Sherman, U.S. Grant, Joshua Chamberlain etc. along with books like Loyalty and loss Alabama’s Unionists in the Civil War and The Soul Of Battle.

    You’ll be rewarded with a view into another time and places where conventional wisdom was nothing like today. You’ll see racism and slavery but you’ll also see complex issues and some good, evil, brilliant, incompetent, brave and cowardly people on both sides as the nation struggled to address human rights, states rights, the differences of manufacturing and agrarian economies and regional animosities

    Never let anyone tell you two simple sentences explain everything about one side.
    _

    As to the 1619 propaganda project which seeks to revise history……..

    “ Baquet spoke frankly about the paper’s approach to Trump. For two years, he explained, the Times made a very, very big deal of the Trump-Russia affair. “Baquet spoke frankly about the paper’s approach to Trump. For two years, he explained, the Times made a very, very big deal of the Trump-Russia affair. “We built our newsroom to cover one story,” Baquet said. But then came the Mueller report, which failed to establish the core allegation against the president………

    ……. Now we have to regroup,” Baquet told the staff, “and shift resources and emphasis to take on a different story.”

    That different story is race — and Trump. “We’ve got to change,” Baquet said. “I mean, the vision for coverage for the next two years is what I talked about earlier: How do we cover a guy who makes these kinds of remarks? How do we cover the world’s reaction to him? How do we do that while continuing to cover his policies? How do we cover America, that’s become so divided by Donald Trump?”………

    ……..”I’m wondering to what extent you think that the fact of racism and white supremacy being sort of the foundation of this country should play into our reporting?” one staffer asked Baquet. “Just because it feels to me like it should be a starting point, you know? Like these conversations about what is racist, what isn’t racist, I just feel like racism is in everything. It should be considered in our science reporting, in our culture reporting, in our national reporting.”.”

    https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/opinion/columnists/new-goal-for-new-york-times-reframe-american-history-and-target-trump-too
    _

    harkin (337580)

  41. “the nation struggled to address human rights, states rights, the differences of manufacturing and agrarian economies and regional animosities”

    human rights – denied by the Confederacy
    State’s rights – to own slaves

    Differences of economies? One was an economy that wished to preserve the right not to pay the people who worked in it.

    Regional animosities. By 1860 the North really did hate the slavocracy of the South. And the South was unwilling to contemplate the bare possibility of losing political power and thus the power to maintain slavery.

    So complex. So so very complex.

    Victor (a225f9)

  42. So complex. So so very complex.

    Lincoln explained the war and its causes with his usual clarity and honesty in his second inaugural address, delivered only a month before the end of the struggle and six weeks before his own death:

    One-eighth of the whole population were colored slaves, not distributed generally over the Union, but localized in the southern part of it. These slaves constituted a peculiar and powerful interest. All knew that this interest was somehow the cause of the war. To strengthen, perpetuate, and extend this interest was the object for which the insurgents would rend the Union even by war, while the Government claimed no right to do more than to restrict the territorial enlargement of it.

    Neither party expected for the war the magnitude or the duration which it has already attained. Neither anticipated that the cause of the conflict might cease with or even before the conflict itself should cease. Each looked for an easier triumph, and a result less fundamental and astounding. Both read the same Bible and pray to the same God, and each invokes His aid against the other. It may seem strange that any men should dare to ask a just God’s assistance in wringing their bread from the sweat of other men’s faces, but let us judge not, that we be not judged.

    The prayers of both could not be answered. That of neither has been answered fully. The Almighty has His own purposes. “Woe unto the world because of offenses; for it must needs be that offenses come, but woe to that man by whom the offense cometh.” If we shall suppose that American slavery is one of those offenses which, in the providence of God, must needs come, but which, having continued through His appointed time, He now wills to remove, and that He gives to both North and South this terrible war as the woe due to those by whom the offense came, shall we discern therein any departure from those divine attributes which the believers in a living God always ascribe to Him?

    Fondly do we hope, fervently do we pray, that this mighty scourge of war may speedily pass away. Yet, if God wills that it continue until all the wealth piled by the bondsman’s two hundred and fifty years of unrequited toil shall be sunk, and until every drop of blood drawn with the lash shall be paid by another drawn with the sword, as was said three thousand years ago, so still it must be said “the judgments of the Lord are true and righteous altogether.”

    Dave (1bb933)

  43. Like with the assassination of Khashoggi, Trump is covering for the Saudis in the wake of the Pensacola terrorist attack. David Sanger:

    On Saturday, leaving the White House for a trip here for a Republican fund-raiser and a speech on Israeli-American relations, Mr. Trump told reporters that “they are devastated in Saudi Arabia,” noting that “the king will be involved in taking care of families and loved ones.” He never used the word “terrorism.”
    What was missing was any assurance that the Saudis would aid in the investigation, help identify the suspect’s motives, or answer the many questions about the vetting process for a coveted slot at one of the country’s premier schools for training allied officers. Or, more broadly, why the United States continues to train members of the Saudi military even as that same military faces credible accusations of repeated human rights abuses in Yemen, including the dropping of munitions that maximize civilian casualties.
    “The attack is a disaster for an already deeply strained relationship,” Bruce Riedel, a scholar at the Brookings Institution and a former C.I.A. officer who has dealt with generations of Saudi leaders, said on Saturday. It “focuses attention on Americans training Saudi Air Force officers who are engaged in numerous bombings of innocents in Yemen, which is the worst humanitarian catastrophe in the world,” he said, noting that the Trump administration had long been fighting Congress as it seeks to end American support for that war.
    But even stranger, said Mr. Riedel, was “the president’s parroting of the Saudi line” before learning the results of an investigation into whether the gunman acted alone, or had allegiances to Al Qaeda or terrorist groups.

    It’s not that strange: Trump gets all chest-thumpy with democratic allies and he caves to dictators, even the junior-partner kind like Erdogan and bin Salman.

    Paul Montagu (00daa1)

  44. @19. “The Plumbers.”

    History rhymes.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  45. President trump on 78 anniversary of the attack on pearl harbor. I prefer people who weren’t bombed ok!”

    asset (153a21)

  46. “Why is Trump acting as the spokesperson for Saudi Arabia? It is a disgrace that the office of the presidency is being used for the interests of the theocratic extremist Saudi Arabian Kingdom, the #1 exporter of the radical Islamist ideology that fuels jihadists like al-Qaeda/ISIS.”

    — Tulsi G, aka LAS

    (Great question).

    JRH (52aed3)

  47. Trump’s alter ego speaks out on the nation’s toilet crisis, and none too soon…

    Still waiting for the fake news MSM to ask the Democrats any tough questions about how many times Americans flush.

    Such an obvious double-standard!

    Dave (1bb933)

  48. I’ll be in work by the time Patterico posts this week’s Bach. So I’ll leave this here, the Canonic Variations on “Von Himmel Hoch”
    https://youtu.be/fpvuTdlsc-U
    Von Himmel Hoch was a Christmas carol written, apparently, by Luther
    Original German and an English translation here
    https://www.german-way.com/history-and-culture/german-language/german-christmas-carols/vom-himmel-hoch-da-komm-ich-her/

    kishnevi (0c10d1)

  49. As to Trump, about that fundraising speech
    https://news.yahoo.com/trump-says-pro-israel-group-114207225.html

    kishnevi (0c10d1)

  50. As to Trump, about that fundraising speech

    Straight talk from the “second coming of God”.

    Dave (1bb933)

  51. Cody Alcorn
    @CodyAlcorn
    Tennessee has put a 53-year-old blind inmate to death in the electric chair for his conviction in the 1991 killing of his estranged girlfriend. The execution was only the 2nd of a blind inmate in the U.S. since the nation’s reinstatement of the death penalty in 1976.
    __ _

    Deplorable Me
    @LKrukowski

    Cool. He had something in common with justice.
    __ _

    KD
    @endearingcharms
    ·
    I’m sure his glaucoma wasn’t nearly as painful as his ex-girlfriend’s final 24 hours after being burned alive.
    __ _

    Daniel Aspden
    @aspden_daniel
    ·
    I think the fact that he burned someone to death is more relevant than him being legally blind
    __ _

    Leonard Gordon
    @leng305
    ·
    The dude wasn’t blind when he poured gasoline on his girlfriend and lit her on fire

    Lots of people have gone blind from glaucoma as they age
    Waiting for justice to be served for over 30 years can allow lots of health issues to emerge
    _ _

    Carmen Robinson
    @CptCarm
    ·
    He’s the one burning now

    _

    harkin (337580)

  52. Such an obvious double-standard!
    Dave (1bb933) — 12/8/2019 @ 7:47 am

    One might call it the American Standard

    felipe (023cc9)

  53. Nikki Haley this morning:

    Sad that the outrage media has gone crazy about my recent intv with Glenn Beck.What I said was accurate.Many in South Carolina did see the confederate flag as symbolizing heritage, and many others saw it as symbolling hate.That’s why it was such a difficult issue for so long. I am proud of our state for coming together to remove the flag from our statehouse.If the outrage peddlers in the liberal media are really interested in my views on the flag, instead of distorting them, they should read the first 2 chapters of my book.

    Dana (643cd6)

  54. @45: With all this anti-Saudi posing, you’d have thought the Bushes were still in power.

    Munroe (dd6b64)

  55. With all this anti-Saudi posing, you’d have thought the Bushes were still in power.

    Got that right, Munroe. It was inexcusable how Bush gave the Saudi royal family a pass after it became obvious that they ordered the murder and dismembering of a journalist and US resident in one of their Middle East consulates.

    Paul Montagu (00daa1)

  56. And now Rafael Edward Cruz is parroting Russian disinformation on Ukraine.

    “Ukraine blatantly interfered in our election.”

    Vlad says “spasibo!”.
    Better Republicans needed.

    Paul Montagu (00daa1)

  57. No more beautiful letters?

    I do feel sorry for Melania, betrayed by the dear friend she had come to know so well.

    Dave (1bb933)

  58. Cody Alcorn
    @CodyAlcorn
    Not sure why this tweet is getting so much heat. It’s just facts. I don’t see anywhere where I questioned the punishment. It was a horrific crime. He paid w/ his life. He was blind. He was executed. Only the 2nd blind man since 1976 to be put to death.

    __ _

    He actually said that.
    _

    harkin (337580)

  59. And now Rafael Edward Cruz is parroting Russian disinformation on Ukraine.

    It’s his evil twin. The beard is a dead give-away.

    Dave (1bb933)

  60. ”Got that right, Munroe. It was inexcusable how Bush gave the Saudi royal family a pass after it became obvious that they ordered the murder and dismembering of a journalist and US resident in one of their Middle East consulates.”
    Paul Montagu (00daa1) — 12/8/2019 @ 10:00 am

    The Bushes would’ve adopted a much ballyhooed zero-tolerance-get-tough policy, and invaded Turkey as a result.

    And #NeverTrump would lap it up.

    https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2018/dec/04/george-hw-bush-saudi-arabia-donald-trump
    https://www.brookings.edu/blog/order-from-chaos/2018/03/21/mohammed-bin-salman-son-of-the-iraq-war/

    Munroe (dd6b64)

  61. Guys, don’t ever talk about Trump. Munroe will get mad and want us to talk about someone who hasn’t been in power in a freaking decade.

    Whatabout whatabout whatabout let’s never talk about Trump ever again!

    Dustin (cafb36)

  62. Whaddabout: Any hoax attempting to refute the established fact that history started January 20, 2017.

    Munroe (dd6b64)

  63. Guys, don’t ever talk about Trump. Munroe will get mad and want us to talk about someone who hasn’t been in power in a freaking decade.

    Can you blame him?

    Even for a true believer, defending the cult leader’s assertion that that people of Saudi Arabia love us is a bit much to ask…

    Dave (1bb933)

  64. @63. Tedtoo, the Russian puppet; there’s a lot of the Cuban in Edwardo after all.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  65. Hey guys, Munroe thinks talking about the leader of the free world doing bizarre things is a hoax and he also thinks George Bush was the president in January of 2017!

    Dustin (cafb36)

  66. @63. Tedtoo, the Russian puppet; there’s a lot of the Cuban in Edwardo after all.

    DCSCA (797bc0) — 12/8/2019 @ 11:18 am

    I don’t know what being Cuban has to do with it, but he sure is embarrassing. At one point, Trump threatened to ‘spill the beans’ on Ted’s wife. I wonder what that was about.

    Dustin (cafb36)

  67. All knew that this interest was somehow the cause of the war.

    I’ll tell you how.

    So long as slavery was held in strong, if not extreme, disrepute, politicians from slave states could never hope to occupy any national office.

    Because it couldn’t be abolished in the south. That cause was lost after 1832.

    The move for secession was caused by politicians who hoped to occupy the highest possible offices.
    That no longer being possible in the United States with the anti-slavery Republican Party dominant, they wanted to create a separate country where they could aspire to the Presidency and to the Cabinet. Also legislative matters unrelated to slavery, and legislative positions would go against them.

    It wasn’t that the Republican Party would free the slaves, or even stop the interstate trade in slaves. It wasn’t that they wanted fugitive slaves returned, because, if they successfully seceded they surely wouldn’t be returned! It’s just that they’d be outvoted in the Congress, more and more as time went on, and Abolitionist literature would be allowed to freely circulate (or be mailed to) the South. And of course things that helped the cause of slavery wouldn’t happen.

    Lincoln’s goal was only to set public opinion in the belief that slavery was on the course to ultimate extinction. That’s what he said before his election.

    But what happened in the south was that, just as ut became impossible for anyone (in the voting community) to argue against slavery, it quickly, in 1860-1, became impossile to argue against secession as well.

    They had deprived themselves of free speech and could not do anything else except commit terrible crimes and blunders.

    “the judgments of the Lord are true and righteous altogether.”

    A mistranslation or misuderstanding of the second half of Psalm 19:10. It should be “ordinances” not “judgements” The Hebrew word has both meanings but it clearly means law, not cases.

    Sammy Finkelman (592d97)

  68. The problem with the vetting of members of the Saudi Air Force is that they don’t extend the vetting to what religious teachers they had between the ages of 6 and 14. Or, probably, even later.

    It is traditional in the United States not to investigate what happened in someone’s life before the age of 18.

    Well, we can ignore that, but sponsors of terrorism don’t. They know just who would escape scrutiny.

    Now if the one-time elementary and high school age students of such teachers now regarded those teachers as evil sinners, and servers of Satan, that might be okay. But they do need to be questioned.

    The Saudi government know exactly what schools and teachers to be wary of.

    Nevertheless, it’s also true that the current vetting (which I’m sure ignores the indoctrinaton that might have been attempted while they were children) results in no more than 1% to 3% of Saudi military cadets being potential terrorists, of which no more than about one quarter of them go on to commit acts of terror.

    Sammy Finkelman (592d97)

  69. DCSCA, I think you might be right about Bloomie…I saw a commercial and his “I approve this message” voiceover sounded a lot like John Malkovich, noted psycho-player.

    urbanleftbehind (cdebcf)

  70. Errata * servants of Satan. I think an Islamic concept or insult.

    Sammy Finkelman (592d97)

  71. 70, if there is something in Ted’s 23 and Me, it was consensual and Trotskyist, not like the parade of cold-war era Russian sailors that kept lil Marco and one of our esteemed former posters up at night.

    urbanleftbehind (9622c9)

  72. R.I.P. Caroll Spinney; he played Big Bird and Oscar the Grouch on Sesame Street

    Icy (6abb50)

  73. Belated R.I.P. to D.C. Fontana; she was script writer and story editor on Star Trek: The Original Series

    Icy (6abb50)

  74. It’s his evil twin. The beard is a dead give-away.

    I wish. BTW, this was the article where Cruz accused the Ukrainian ambassador of meddling. All it did was express concern about Trump’s comments and set the record straight about Ukraine and Putin’s multiple invasions, so Cruz was lying.
    And what were Trump’s comments that caused the ambassador to write an op-ed? It was this combination incoherence, idiocy and ignorance.

    “He’s not going into Ukraine, OK, just so you understand. He’s not going to go into Ukraine, all right? You can mark it down. You can put it down. You can take it anywhere you want,” Trump said in an interview on Sunday with ABC’s George Stephanopoulos on “This Week.”
    “Well, he’s already there, isn’t he?” Stephanopoulos responded, in a reference to Crimea, which Putin took from Ukraine in early 2014.
    Trump said: “OK — well, he’s there in a certain way. But I’m not there. You have Obama there. And frankly, that whole part of the world is a mess under Obama with all the strength that you’re talking about and all of the power of NATO and all of this. In the meantime, he’s going away. He takes Crimea.”
    […]
    During the ABC interview, Stephanopoulos interjected to note that Trump has suggested he could recognize Russia’s claim on Crimea over Ukraine’s — and Trump didn’t back away from that possibility in the interview.
    “I’m going to take a look at it,” he said. “But you know, the people of Crimea, from what I’ve heard, would rather be with Russia than where they were.

    What’s a Ukrainian ambassador ‘sposed to do? Sit there and do nothing while Trump is spinning Russian disinformation?

    Paul Montagu (00daa1)

  75. The Bushes would’ve adopted a much ballyhooed zero-tolerance-get-tough policy, and invaded Turkey as a result.
    Squirrel!!

    Paul Montagu (00daa1)

  76. So long as slavery was held in strong, if not extreme, disrepute, politicians from slave states could never hope to occupy any national office.

    Not sure if serious.

    “Politicians from southern states” dominated the federal government for decades leading up to the Civil War. Compliant northern Democrats beholden to the slave interest (“doughfaces”), like Buchanan, were occasionally elevated to high office as well, to maintain appearances.

    The problem was, they went too far and alienated these northern Democrats who were the key to the whole corrupt arrangement. At that point, the realization that the tail could no longer wag the dog alarmed the southern slave-drivers into secession.

    Dave (1bb933)

  77. Personally, I will refrain from comments which serve no other purpose than to tweak pro-Trump commenters on the site today. (There’s not much of today left, anyway.)

    nk (dbc370)

  78. Will any of the Trumpablican politicians ever have a chance to achieve national office? Will they even maintain their by-the-fingernail holds in their states and districts after the daffodil is gone?

    nk (dbc370)

  79. Jonah takes down Munroe’s whatabouting quite concisely:

    Friend: “Biden did the same thing they’re accusing Trump of doing.”
    Me: “He really didn’t, but ok let’s say he did. Is what Biden did okay?”
    F: “No! It’s outrageous!”
    Me: “And if Trump is guilty of doing the same thing is that outrageous?”
    F: “….”

    Paul Montagu (00daa1)

  80. Brian Stelter
    @brianstelter
    Lies and smears and diversions are not automatically newsworthy. Our job is to report what IS true… and then, when untrue or unproven or unsourced stuff is affecting the public debate, our job is to explain who’s pushing that stuff and why and how we know it’s unreliable…
    __ _

    Brian Stelter
    @brianstelter

    Rather will join me on #Reliablesources Sunday.
    __ _

    Julio Rosas
    @juliorosas11
    @AlanFrancisMD, a psychiatrist, tells @BrianStelter: ‘Trump may be responsible for many more million deaths than Adolf Hitler, Joseph Stalin and Mao Zedong”

    _

    harkin (337580)

  81. Paul Montagu (00daa1) — 12/8/2019 @ 1:51 pm

    LOL

    You can’t even keep your false analogies straight.

    I’ll wait for the obligatory Hitler reference.

    Munroe (f62389)

  82. What I won’t be waiting for, Munroe, is your next whataboutism. But I guess it’s all you got. Sucks to be you.

    Paul Montagu (00daa1)

  83. Munroe, do you agree, as President Trump just assured us, that the people of Saudi Arabia are united in their love for America?

    Dave (050ab0)

  84. Dave (050ab0) — 12/8/2019 @ 2:26 pm

    No, I don’t. Your point?

    Munroe (f62389)

  85. Dave, so what that the president allied with our enemies again, breaking a huge part of his campaign platform? Trump fan asks, what’s your point?

    Dustin (cafb36)

  86. No, I don’t. Your point?

    Thank you for the direct answer.

    So is he lying to us, or just unbelievably stupid? If you think there’s a third possible explanation, feel free to offer it.

    Dave (1bb933)

  87. ”So is he lying to us, or just unbelievably stupid? If you think there’s a third possible explanation, feel free to offer it.”
    Dave (1bb933) — 12/8/2019 @ 2:46 pm

    He’s a politician, and a head of state. Do you think truth telling and the country’s interests are always aligned?

    An odd line of questioning from a Bush supporter, no?

    Munroe (4ae3dd)

  88. He’s a politician, and a head of state. Do you think truth telling and the country’s interests are always aligned?

    Ahh, the classic squirrel from Trump’s Taint. Why answer the question, when you can employ a blizzard of snit to completely obscure that answering the questions forces acceptance of being supportive of lying for the benefit of America’s enemies, or being moron adjacent…at best.

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (6e7a1c)

  89. “He’s a politician, and a head of state.”

    Drain the swamp!

    Davethulhu (fe4242)

  90. And now Rafael Edward Cruz is parroting Russian disinformation on Ukraine.

    I gave him money. I want a refund.

    Patterico (115b1f)

  91. An odd line of questioning from a Bush supporter, no?

    Munroe (4ae3dd) — 12/8/2019 @ 3:18 pm

    Whatabout we never talk about Trump. Even about the very things Trump said were important.

    Dustin (cafb36)

  92. Senator Cruz is correct yet again. Glad I supported him and still do.

    NJRob (33d884)

  93. So an op-ed that expresses concern about a falsehood and corrects the historical record is “blatant interference” in the 2016 election? How? There was no hacking, no disinformation campaign, no social media propaganda operation.

    Paul Montagu (00daa1)

  94. This is going to be one of those things that is an article of faith on both sides. Proof of your partisan bona fides.

    For Republicans: Ukraine totally interfered in the election, probably worse than Russia, if Russia even did.

    For Democrats: any hint that anyone Ukranian ever said anything for the purpose of influencing the election is a total hoax.

    The actual truth is, as is often the case, in between — though much closer to the Democrat position. The Politico story’s most ostentatious allegations are based on the sort of anonymous sources that GOP partisans always reject unless the anonymous sources support their position, in which case uncritical acceptance is the word of the day. Thee was the Chalupa woman and there was an op-ed, but as Paul just noted, nothing remotely approaching what Russia did — and notably, no hacking, no server in Ukraine, and no concerted top-down government effort. The intelligence community has firmly repudiated any such allegation of top-down efforts as Russian propaganda and Ted Cruz knows it — which is why he dances around any specifics in the interview.

    Watching him tap dance and shovel the shit for Trump is disgusting. But it’s a good lesson on who he really is.

    Patterico (115b1f)

  95. I’ll trust Senator Cruz’s knowledge and reputation as well as his access to information neither you nor the guy you quoted has access to.

    NJRob (d14adc)

  96. I’ll trust Senator Cruz’s knowledge and reputation as well as his access to information neither you nor the guy you quoted has access to.

    Sucker.

    Patterico (115b1f)

  97. But a willing sucker.

    Patterico (115b1f)

  98. Do you also trust his bullshit that an abuse of power that doesn’t meet the statutory definition of some crime is not impeachable?

    Why am I asking. Of course you do.

    Patterico (115b1f)

  99. @70. Could tell you to ask Castro– but he’s dead.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  100. Sigh.

    Patterico, why are you trying to pick a fight?

    NJRob (a137be)

  101. He was against Trump before he was for him. Trump dirties everyone who goes near him. Like an overflowing New York sewer where a toilet has been flushed ten, fifteen times.

    nk (dbc370)

  102. He = Cruz.

    nk (dbc370)

  103. Paul constantly quotes and claims that Ukraine didn’t interfere in the election. Doesn’t say as much as Russia. Doesn’t say at the highest levels. Just quotes people who spew the leftist position on the issue. So I rebut his remarks and then you get angry.

    You rebutted his remarks as well.

    NJRob (a137be)

  104. @94. You get ‘credit’ for recognizing what he actually is: ‘a man whose allegiance is ruled by expedience…’

    If you called him a Nazi,” bet he wouldn’t even frown, either… 😉

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  105. ”He was against Trump before he was for him.”
    nk (dbc370) — 12/8/2019 @ 6:21 pm

    As opposed to being for Cruz before being against him. Applies to so many here.

    Munroe (dd6b64)

  106. Yeah I definitely supported Cruz before he showed me he was unworthy of it. When someone shows you who they are, believe them.

    Dustin (cafb36)

  107. @73. You betcha. His latest dictate: ‘rules’ for his own news operation on covering his campaign– by not covering it– is ‘reich’ outta der Fuehrer’s playbook. Catch his interview regarding ‘paychecks come with responsibilities.’ Still, Hitler was a better dresser. 😉

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  108. As opposed to being for Cruz before being against him.

    I like my brand new Stetson hat too, but I wouldn’t even bother to fish it out of a New York sewer, let alone wear it ever again.

    nk (dbc370)

  109. 108, iow, a kept man.

    Not that it would change the minds it needs to change but here goes: http://imgflip.com/i/3iumwr

    urbanleftbehind (9622c9)

  110. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KgKGjoIkaXU&feature=youtu.be

    OAN doing the investigating and reporting the rest of the media refuses to do.

    NJRob (a137be)

  111. He’s a politician, and a head of state. Do you think truth telling and the country’s interests are always aligned?

    So, what interest of the United States is served by its president lying openly to the people to suck up to a murderous foreign despot who needs us more than we need them?

    Futhermore, this isn’t a case of being evasive or deceptive about some matter of military operational security or even diplomacy. Trump didn’t have to say anything about how much the people of Saudi Arabia love the United States. He could have just kept his mouth shut, or simply expressed sympathy for the victims.

    But instead he decided to feed America a gratuitous lie to make his Saudi murderer buddy happy.

    Dave (1bb933)

  112. ”But instead he decided to feed America a gratuitous lie to make his Saudi murderer buddy happy.”
    Dave (1bb933) — 12/8/2019 @ 7:58 pm

    The criticism is valid, if this started with Trump. You know it didn’t, nor is the term “buddy” more accurate than when used in relation to Bushes. The worst that can be said of Trump is that he’s continuing a bad policy that dates back decades.

    So, were the Bushes lying to us, or are they just unbelievably stupid? What does a Bush supporter say?

    Munroe (dd6b64)

  113. Bush never said all the Saudis love us, which is a lie.

    He said most Muslims aren’t terrorists, which is true.

    See the difference?

    Dave (1bb933)

  114. The Trump-Kushner crime family and its caporegimes will get a little extra baksheesh from the Saudis in the coming month, is what I think it’s going to happen. Also watch for a lot (a lot-lot) of $200 donations to Trump’s campaign on prepaid cards from unknown locations.

    nk (dbc370)

  115. coming month*s*

    nk (dbc370)

  116. @115. The ‘customer’ is always right.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  117. ”See the difference?”
    Dave (1bb933) — 12/8/2019 @ 8:34 pm

    No. The key to making Trump’s policy look outlandish is not to acknowledge that it’s a continuation of Bush’s. To harp on a “lie” of no consequence is a bit of a tell.

    Munroe (dd6b64)

  118. I’ll trust Senator Cruz’s knowledge and reputation as well as his access to information neither you nor the guy you quoted has access to.

    “In Ted I trust” is not an answer to how an op-ed is “blatant interference”, so I’ll conclude that you got nuthin’.

    Paul constantly quotes and claims that Ukraine didn’t interfere in the election.

    Don’t lie, NJ. What I’ve actually said is that best evidence available is that Ms. Chalupa, on her own accord because she was offended that Manafort joined the Trump campaign, was a sometime operative for the DNC who asked for information from a couple or three Ukrainian diplomats at the DC embassy, and they helped her out. It’s all based on that January 2017 Politico article. There’s no other credible evidence that I’ve seen of Ukrainian officials helping Hillary or working against Trump, and there’s no evidence that Ukrainian leadership directed any sort of operation for Hillary or against Trump.
    By comparison, Putin’s effort to interfere was “sweeping and systematic”, which was well documented in the Mueller report and affirmed by other Americans in the intelligence community. By comparison, Ukraine “offense” is like shoplifting a candy bar versus Putin’s first-degree murder.

    Paul Montagu (00daa1)

  119. It’s no different than when the daffodil was caught employing illegal aliens. He lies about what he’s going to do, he lies about what he’s doing, and he lies about what he has done. But letting in Saudi terrorists and training them to fly airplanes at a Naval Air Base is maybe a lie he should not be allowed to get away with?

    nk (dbc370)

  120. As for Ted Cruz, I learned enough of his character in 2016 to know that I wasn’t going to vote for him in 2016 and may never will. It’s a bad sign for the GOP when the top two candidates were the two biggest liars.

    Paul Montagu (00daa1)

  121. Paul,

    your post in 60 insults Senator Cruz and says he is spreading Russian disinformation when it comes to Ukraine. As all he said was that Ukraine was involved in the 2016 campaign, you are being dishonest. He was careful with his words. You were not. Would’ve been easier for you to just quote the WaPo opinion page.

    https://twitter.com/NathanBrandWA/status/1203811602702766085

    NJRob (4d595c)

  122. And just a reminder to all that Manafort was added because he was supposed to be good at wrangling up votes should it come to a contested convention.

    NJRob (4d595c)

  123. Well, no, actually, what Manafort did was put in the fix with the RNC Committeemen and the State GOP Committeemen to make sure that there would be no contested convention and no voting to angle for. The size of the bag he toted is not known.

    nk (dbc370)

  124. As all he said was that Ukraine was involved in the 2016 campaign, you are being dishonest.

    You’re dishonest, NJ. Cruz said this:

    Ukraine blatantly interfered in our election. The sitting ambassador from Ukraine wrote an op-ed blasting Donald Trump…

    Those were Ted’s words, right there in the transcript. I linked to that op-ed upthread and there was no “blasting”. Cruz was lying. Cruz was also lying about an op-ed as “blatant interference” for expressing concern and for correcting the historical record. Cruz’s false and baseless assertion easily falls under the category of Russian disinformation because it only serves to help Putin and damage the government that’s been under attack by Putin since February 2014.

    Paul Montagu (098ed3)

  125. BS. That you try to minimize what was blatant interference is indeed your track record. That it wasn’t on the same degree as Russia doesn’t make it Russian disinformation. But you will carry on with your falsehoods.

    NJRob (4d595c)

  126. R.I.P. René Auberjonois, actor from Benson, Star Trek: Deep Space Nine and Boston Legal

    Icy (6abb50)

  127. That you try to minimize what was blatant interference is indeed your track record.

    Prove the “blatant interference”, NJ, and don’t use “in Ted I trust” as a crutch or his bogus crock-of*sh*t that an op-ed was “blatant interference”. C’mon, bub, dazzle me.
    And if we’re talking track records, I’ve seen enough of your commenting at Disqus (despite your efforts to hide your comments like most of the chest-thumping Trump-humping pu$$ies) to know that you’re a liar and a douchebag.

    Paul Montagu (098ed3)

  128. An actor I liked, Icy. I watched him just last week as a Zoro/Juan Valdez parody Mexican bandit (really) in the Terence Hill short feature Lucky Luke: Cafe Ole, who kidnaps Susan B. Anthony (that Susan B. Anthony) (really). And not too long ago as the visiting French psychologist on the Bob Newhart Show (that was pre-Benson).

    nk (dbc370)

  129. Paul,

    name calling is against the terms of service. I’m done with you.

    NJRob (4d595c)

  130. name calling is against the terms of service. I’m done with you.

    Well, the whiny snowflakes will call it name-calling. To me, it’s called as seen. I was done with you months ago, because you’ve long proven to me the “man” you are.

    Paul Montagu (098ed3)

  131. https://twitter.com/tedcruz/status/1203730576647303170

    In nice, simple terms for those that are having trouble.

    NJRob (4d595c)

  132. In nice, simple terms for those that are having trouble.

    After Cruz was caught on MTP defending Putin propaganda and undermining the Ukrainian government with his smears, Cruz is now falling back with a variation of the Underpants Gnome argument but, in this case, it’s (1) Hunter Biden got a cushy, high-paying, no-work job, (2) ???? and (3) Corruption!
    Adoring Trump loyalists keep alleging corruption, but there’s no evidence, which stops them at #2. They keep saying that Biden pushed for the firing of a prosecutor because he was prosecuting Burisma or Zlochevsky or Hunter Biden, when the reality is that there is no evidence of Shokin doing such a thing. Cruz is lying.
    Shokin was corrupt and was enriching himself from his corruption and was doing the opposite of investigating corruption, and now the guy is represented by Toensing-DiGenova, who are also representing a corrupt Ukrainian oligarch under house arrest, they’re representing a sacked Ukrainian prosecutor who was sacked for his corruption, and they worked “off the books” for Giuliani. It’s a stinking cabal of corruption, all on the Trump side of the ledger.

    Paul Montagu (098ed3)

  133. It kind of looks to me like Cruz still retains some shreds of cred otherwise people wouldn’t even bother to call him out when he shills for Trump, they’d just go “ho-hum, it’s Lindsay Graham being Lindsay Graham”, which makes him that much more useful to the daffodil.

    nk (dbc370)

  134. It kind of looks to me like Cruz still retains some shreds of cred…

    Until he showed up on MTP and flushed those shreds into the swamp. Now Cruz is in the tribe of Lindsey Graham and Ron Johnson and all the other Senators who bent the knee in obeisance to this president.

    Paul Montagu (098ed3)

  135. This NYT piece raises more questions than answers. First, the instructor in question wasn’t calling Alshamrani “Porn Stash”, he was calling him “Porn ‘Stache”. All you have to do is look at the picture of the guy. He was making fun of his looks, not that he was a pervert.
    Second, that incident occurred last April. Why the 7-month delay between being called “Porn Stash” and murder?
    Third, aren’t soldiers called a lot worse in basic training?
    Fourth, if Alshamrani was so offended, why didn’t he shoot the instructor (Mr. Day) instead of innocent victims? The NYT didn’t open a comment section in their piece, which is convenient.
    Fifth, the fact remains that Alshamrani brought a handgun into a classroom and shot at people indiscriminately, even killing a teenager with an Arabic surname. What did the young Haitham do that justified the ending of his life? Doesn’t this mean that the shooter became radicalized at some point, in a manner that had little to do with how one instructor treated him?

    Paul Montagu (098ed3)

  136. No. The key to making Trump’s policy look outlandish is not to acknowledge that it’s a continuation of Bush’s. To harp on a “lie” of no consequence is a bit of a tell.

    The key to making Trump’s policy look outlandish is to pay attention to the moronic things he says and does. Every day.

    As I explained to you, Bush never tried to portray the Saudis as Rotarians.

    He never “fell in love” with the dictator of North Korea.

    He never parroted foreign dictators’ propaganda and demonized our own military, intelligence and law enforcement communities.

    But suppose, despite of all the evidence to the contrary, that you’re right.

    All this time, I thought Trump was supposed to be the anti-Bush.

    But suddenly it turns out that he’s not only allegedly following Bush’s policies, but the fact he’s doing so is “of no consequence”!

    Dave (1bb933)

  137. He brags about his vanity. His lust and his greed too. He doesn’t need forgiveness and certainly doesn’t give it. So, of course he is beloved by those who wear religion on their sleeves. It makes sense. Not to me…. but to them.

    noel (f22371)

  138. What are the traits you look for before you trust someone? I could list over a dozen qualities but you know what they are. And Donald Trump has few to none of them. OK, OK. I will list the first google list I find.

    (Success Magazine)
    They are authentic. People want to be around others that are real, meaning they are authentic and have high character. …
    They are consistent. Everyone has a bad day. …
    They have integrity. …
    They are compassionate. …
    They are kind. …
    They are resourceful. …
    They are connectors. …
    They are humble.

    The self-described religious voters trust him? You go right ahead. I’m not budging.

    noel (f22371)

  139. Noel, you might wish to try proofreading your comments from time to time. You used “list” three times in one paragraph.

    dumba$$

    noel (f22371)

  140. I don’t really see that what Haley said, and what she was originally quoted as saying, are that far off. It’s good that Axios corrected their reporting. But I don’t think a difference in meaning between saying the confederate flag stood for good things, and speaking supportively about other people who thought the flag stood for good things.
    Symbols mean whatever you want them to mean and the flag had very mixed message before a white nationalist terrorist reminded everyone that it’s a symbol of white supremacy.

    Time123 (c9382b)

  141. This hits on my biggest worry….
    https://amgreatness.com/2019/12/08/the-legacy-of-low-bar-impeachment/

    In conclusion:

    The result of this low-bar impeachment?

    From now on, impeachment can be used against any first-term president with a record of success. It will be used solely as a political strategy by the opposition party that controls the House to weaken a president’s reelection chances—possibly in the interest of some of the very House, or Senate, members who as presidential candidates will sit in judgment of the accused president.

    There need be no special prosecutor’s report of wrongdoing, no hard evidence, no first-hand witnesses of illegality. The entire rushed process will take days, not months in order to stain the president with being impeached. The impeaching party need not worry about the absence either of public or bipartisan congressional support. The impeaching party, as Hamilton feared, will always be in the majority in the House and can rig quick hearings to preclude reciprocal rights of calling witnesses and cross-examination.

    That’s the Democratic legacy and Democrats will live to rue it.

    whembly (51f28e)

  142. The hearings are continuing today where Republicans will again be demanding that Schiff, Hunter Biden and the Whistleblower testify. Meanwhile, back here in reality, the rest of us are left to wonder why they made no such demands of the White House. Not for impeachment. Not for the Mueller Investigation.

    noel (f22371)

  143. There was a mention of Schiff not being there, but you have to read between the lines to see there is request to hear from Hunter Biden and the whistleblower.

    Minority counsel arguing.

    Sammy Finkelman (fb61e5)

  144. Schiff went off half-cocked and that’s a fact. But why should Trump be the only one?

    My worry is that after the Trumpablicans in the Senate “exonerate” the daffodil as is inevitable, and God forbid he is reelected, he will go hog-wild, exponentially more nuts than he has been so far, because he will believe that there are no checks on anything he wants to do. And that’s a clear and present danger.

    nk (dbc370)

  145. @147

    There is hard evidence and first hand testimony of illegality. That alone invalidates your entire point.

    Time123 (6b982d)

  146. So, is the point of the Republicans being procedurally annoying to force people listening to NPR to change the station?

    Appalled (1a17de)

  147. Re #140, Mr. Finkelman:

    Dumbarse! He should be lucky he wasnt called Borat or worse (because of the hmsxl connotations and Zoroastrian origins) Freddy Mercury.

    and regarding Rene Auberjonois, the Greek-coworker of mine was offended that I said he reminded me of him (particularly, his Benson affectations) and not someone more famous.

    urbanleftbehind (5eecdb)

  148. 151

    @147

    There is hard evidence and first hand testimony of illegality. That alone invalidates your entire point.

    Time123 (6b982d) — 12/9/2019 @ 7:43 am

    Did you read the link?

    Because if you did, I’m not sure how you can make that argument.

    whembly (51f28e)

  149. The Southern culture celebrated by the Confederate flag is inextricably linked to chattel slavery which was of course the bedrock and engine of Southern economy. There was no aspect of antebellum Southern life that was not tied to and informed by slavery. It was the shadow over everything. The “cornerstone” of Alexander Stephens’ cornerstone speech, is that all men are *not* created equal. It’s how they rationalized slavery, much as the abortionist rationalizes abortion by claiming that a preborn baby is not human.

    The confederate flag did not need to be “hijacked” in order for it to be representative of White Supremacy. All you have to do is read Alexander Stephens’ speech in which it is stated that blacks are not human.

    JRH (52aed3)

  150. whembly,

    Trump does not do anything in a normal way, and he never follows normal procedures. Do you think his opponents won’t respond to that in unusual ways? Trump generates division and opposition by his manner. It’s a bit rich to wring hands over the way people reply, after cheering on Trump’s, well, unconventional ways.

    Appalled (1a17de)

  151. You gave Raphael Edward Cruz money? What? If Trump has taught us anything, it’s always deny! At least blame it on your younger avatar or something.

    noel (f22371)

  152. I read the linked pc.

    Based on evidence presented Trump abused the power of his office to force Ukraine to manufacture dirt on Biden. This merits impeachment. The evidence for it is extensive and includes direct witnesses as well as corroboration from contemporary documents. The fact that this was purely for personal gain is what separates it from a policy dispute.

    That’s the heart of the matter. The rest of piece seems like excuses and special pleading.

    Time123 (62ed7e)

  153. I gave money to Marco Rubio and went to see him a couple of times. Now, given his silence, even that makes me throw up in my mouth a bit.

    noel (f22371)

  154. #156

    whembly,

    Trump does not do anything in a normal way, and he never follows normal procedures. Do you think his opponents won’t respond to that in unusual ways? Trump generates division and opposition by his manner. It’s a bit rich to wring hands over the way people reply, after cheering on Trump’s, well, unconventional ways.

    Appalled (1a17de) — 12/9/2019 @ 8:05 am

    I’m not wringing my hands here… I’m responding to what amounts to a dismissal.

    The author’s point wasn’t that Trump did or did not do an impeachable offense.

    His point is that Democrats lowered the bar in their zeal to impeach him, and that will set a precedent that the Democrat will not like in the future.

    Essentially, they’re pulling another Harry Reid, in which they won’t like it when a “Cocaine Mitch” applies the same standard against them.

    whembly (51f28e)

  155. Whembly, if this makes future Presidents more constrained in what they can do it will be a change for the better.

    Also, you keep saying other presidents have done things like this, but don’t provide any examples. The examples in the article were policy disputes. Not actions taken for personal gain.

    Time123 (62ed7e)

  156. #158

    I read the linked pc.

    Based on evidence presented Trump abused the power of his office to force Ukraine to manufacture dirt on Biden. This merits impeachment. The evidence for it is extensive and includes direct witnesses as well as corroboration from contemporary documents. The fact that this was purely for personal gain is what separates it from a policy dispute.

    That’s the heart of the matter. The rest of piece seems like excuses and special pleading.

    Time123 (62ed7e) — 12/9/2019 @ 8:08 am

    The fact that this was purely for personal gain is what separates it from a policy dispute.
    That is very much in dispute.

    You can interpret it any way you want, but I don’t think it is so black in white.

    The defense to this was simply Trump didn’t want to hand over money to what was arguably the most corrupt state in that region. Hell, he’s actually legally obligated to confirm that Ukraine endeavors to reduce corruption. (hence why he wanted a public announcement of investigations…which is a measure to hold Ukraine accountable)

    His actions, really, was no different than his dealings with NATO member’s contributions to NATO. He’s constantly challenges the status quo, especially when it’s the US is funding these initiative/programs.

    It’s not as clear cut, as it was when Watergate was burglarized (twice!!!).

    whembly (51f28e)

  157. Let me ask you this; if trump loses but remains politically influential would it be ok for the dem to “ask” foreign counties to shut down his properties? What if they “delay” aid or other normal relations or impose Tarifs until it’s done? Seems like those are all very similar things to this.

    Time123 (62ed7e)

  158. Rep. Al Green (D-TX) said on Saturday during an interview on MSNBC that President Donald Trump needed to be impeached “to deal with slavery.”

    Green, who has previously stated that Trump must be impeached or else “he will get reelected,” said this week that there is “no limit” to the number of times that Democrats can try to impeach the president….

    ….I do believe, ma’am, that we have to deal with the original sin. We have to deal with slavery. Slavery was the thing that put all of what President Trump has done lately into motion.”

    https://www.powerlineblog.com/archives/2019/12/impeach-trump-because-of-slavery.php
    _

    harkin (337580)

  159. 161

    Whembly, if this makes future Presidents more constrained in what they can do it will be a change for the better.

    Also, you keep saying other presidents have done things like this, but don’t provide any examples. The examples in the article were policy disputes. Not actions taken for personal gain.

    Time123 (62ed7e) — 12/9/2019 @ 8:26 am

    That’s where I disagree, especially if the House is held by the opposition party. Congress has other clubs to beat the executives (ie, censure, power-of-the-purse, refusal to pass potus’ desired legislation, etc). It is very hard to impeach and if you don’t remove…the executive will take that as an exoneration and feel like such actions are acceptable.

    What’s obvious here, is that Democrats are NOT conducting impeachment in good faith. Their designs for this is to tarnish Trump electorally without appreciating that they’re setting future precedents that would give House GOP cover to do the same to a Democrat POTUS.

    I don’t agree that what Trump did was solely for personal gain, as you argued. At the very least, there are other plausible explanations. And to me, the worst is the appearance of impropriety(he should’ve instructed the DOJ to initiate investigation with UK thru proper channels and stayed out of the way). That’s why I think Trump (or Rudy/Sonland in this case) wanting Zelenski to publicly announce the investigations is more exculpatory here… Having the investigations publicly announced would hold Ukraine a bit more accountable to combat corruption.

    As for other examples, Obama’s hot mic was one such example. That, right there, had more of a “personal gain” smell than what Trump did with the Ukraine thing.

    Here’s the thing: I don’t think that rises to impeachment offense (certainly censure and other clubs to whack Obama).

    whembly (51f28e)

  160. 163 Let me ask you this; if trump loses but remains politically influential would it be ok for the dem to “ask” foreign counties to shut down his properties? What if they “delay” aid or other normal relations or impose Tarifs until it’s done? Seems like those are all very similar things to this.

    Time123 (62ed7e) — 12/9/2019 @ 8:28 am

    I don’t think there’s legal recourse to stop that.

    Politically? Well…that’s political. What would happen at the ballot box?

    And no, I wouldn’t consider them very similar. Asking a host country to investigate possible law-breaking is vastly different than asking host country to shut down Trump’s property.

    whembly (51f28e)

  161. “if trump loses but remains politically influential would it be ok for the dem to “ask” foreign counties to shut down his properties?”

    Oh that would be a “perfectly” legal request, no doubt about it. Any investigation into such a request would be a hoax and a witch hunt.

    JRH (52aed3)

  162. Lots of plausible explanations. But So far no evidence offered under oath that this was related to concerns about corruption. There has been evidence that it was not.

    Time123 (62ed7e)

  163. @166. “Asking a host country to investigate possible law-breaking is vastly different than asking host country to shut down Trump’s property.”

    This betrays a vast naivete/ ignorance of the history of Trump and Trump properties.

    JRH (52aed3)

  164. @166

    How about “asking” them to announce investigations into the financials of the Trump properties?and also to announce investigations about horrible things happening to guests? What if they ask them to be extremely thorough before any permits are granted and take lots of time before approving them?

    Time123 (62ed7e)

  165. The 20th GOP Congressman has announced he is retiring:

    https://www.nationalreview.com/corner/north-carolina-dampens-gop-hopes-of-retaking-the-house/

    This is now a trend that cannot just be explained that this guy is old or his relative (wife, daughter) is sick with cancer.

    So do these guys know something we don’t?

    Bored Lawyer (998177)

  166. would it be ok for the dem to “ask” foreign counties to shut down his properties? What if they “delay” aid or other normal relations or impose Tarifs until it’s done? Seems like those are all very similar things to this.

    Yes, because these two things are equivalent. Asking a country for information regarding corruption is, generally speaking, something either benign to the foreign country or possibly mutually beneficial to both. Asking them to shut down his properties…well, they could ask, but that country would have to ask itself why it wants to put its people out of work and forgo the other economic benefits of a functioning business. Yes, the dems could ask but it would be rather ‘ugly American’ of them. Of course the dems could then reach into US taxpayer’s pockets and ask much more ‘nicely’. They could do that. There’s words for these things.

    PTw (894877)

  167. Right, because war against Hitler was not going to happen had Pearl Harbor not happened. He was just going to get his lebensraum and call it a day.

    Even AFTER Pearl Harbor, it was not clear that there was going to be formal war against Nazi Germany. Many in Congress who were willing to declare war on Japan were not willing to do so for Germany. It is only after Hitler decided to declare war on the United States that the U.S. responding in kind.

    What would have happened had Hitler not done so? That is historical speculation, but the likely outcome would have been a continuation of support for Britain without formal war. Hitler would have proceeded to conquer most of Europe, and maybe with a peace treaty with a weakened Britain. What he would have done after that is anyone’s guess.

    But given that he was reluctant to cross the English Channel to invade Britain, it is hard to see how he would have crossed the Atlantic to invade the United States.

    Bored Lawyer (998177)

  168. OAN doing the investigating and reporting the rest of the media refuses to do.

    Yep, Giuliani is relying on the guy who was fired for being a corrupt prosecutor, and it’s an interesting coinkidink that Lutsenko is legally represented by Toensing-DiGenova, who are buddy-buddy with Trump and who worked “off the books” for Giuliani.
    OAN didn’t report the name of the person that Yovanovitch wanted fired, but his name is Kholodnytsky, and he was busted on audiotape for “coaching a witness to give false testimony and tipping off suspects to police raids”. Yovanovitch did object to a name that Lutsenko wanted to prosecute, and it was a person on the National Anti-corruption Bureau who was a critic of Lutsenko. Shokin engaged in the same practice, going after the reformers who tried to investigate corrupt prosecutors. Why is it that Giuliani relies on people with sketchy credibility and who align with the pro-Putin narrative?
    OAN is a political advocacy organization, no different from MediaMatters on the Left, advocating for Trump and advocating against his critics. They’re not an “investigating and reporting” outlet. They’re political hacks, trafficking in FakeNews.

    Paul Montagu (4f2df0)

  169. @172, that’s my point. Based on the evidence that’s what Trump did; He pressured Ukraine to serve his personal political interest and used US military aid a stick to drive it. There’s no evidence submitted that the requested investigation was based on any legitimate probable cause.

    Trump supporters say they wanted to end corruption and drain the swamp. There’s a ton of crony capitalism already. This takes it to the next level.

    Time123 (c9382b)

  170. @175 to answer that question we’ll need to know if it’s good or bad for Trump and brings glory and prestige to him and his supporters.

    Time123 (c9382b)

  171. Bored Lawyer (998177) — 12/9/2019 @ 9:57 am

    Even AFTER Pearl Harbor, it was not clear that there was going to be formal war against Nazi Germany.

    FDR or somebody close to him started a small advertising campaign after Pearl Harbor saying that the United States should declare war on Germany. I saw a copy of the newspaper ad in a book.

    But Hitler saved them the trouble because he wanted to do it first.

    They would have declared war, but it would have had more than 1 vote against it. The argument would be something like: “We see now a tongue of the flame has hit us – another one can to. It can’t be allowed to go on. The fire must be put out. And put out as far away from the United States as possible.”

    Sammy Finkelman (fb61e5)

  172. 174. Paul Montagu (4f2df0) — 12/9/2019 @ 10:00 am

    OAN didn’t report the name of the person that Yovanovitch wanted fired, but his name is Kholodnytsky, and he was busted on audiotape for “coaching a witness to give false testimony and tipping off suspects to police raids”. Yovanovitch did object to a name that Lutsenko wanted to prosecute, and it was a person on the National Anti-corruption Bureau who was a critic of Lutsenko. Shokin engaged in the same practice, going after the reformers who tried to investigate corrupt prosecutors.

    Of course Giuliani had it almost completely backwards (the opposite of the way it was.)

    The people who were corrupt were calling the people who weren’t corrupt, corrupt.

    Why is it that Giuliani relies on people with sketchy credibility and who align with the pro-Putin narrative?

    Because his judgment was corrupted by two ex-Soviet crooks who had hired him as a lawyer, and were paying him a great deal of money for nothing much, who had made contact with him as a result of contributing money that wasn’t their’s (but probably ultimately originated with Vladimir Putin) to Republican political causes.

    Sammy Finkelman (fb61e5)

  173. IG Report is out. Haven’t read the entire thing yet, but theconclusions is pretty clear.

    The first is below but summarizes as “The investigation was properly predicated as was not started based on the steele dossier”
    The 2nd is that the FBI really stacked the deck for the Fisa application.
    The 3rd is that there’s no evidence it was politically motivated.

    The decision to open the Crossfire Hurricane investigation was made by the
    FBI’s then Counterintelligence Division (CD) Assistant Director (AD), E.W. “Bill”
    Priestap, and reflected a consensus reached after multiple days of discussions and
    meetings among senior FBI officials. We concluded that AD Priestap’s exercise of
    discretion in opening the investigation was in compliance with Department and FBI
    policies, and we did not find documentary or testimonial evidence that political bias
    or improper motivation influenced his decision
    . While the information in the FBI’s
    possession at the time was limited, in light of the low threshold established by
    Department and FBI predication policy, we found that Crossfire Hurricane was
    opened for an authorized investigative purpose and with sufficient factual
    predication
    .

    I look forward to seeing some procedural changes to address the issues in the 2nd point above and protect all of our civil liberties.

    Time123 (c9382b)

  174. I want to add something that is not directly related to Trump.

    I read the executive summary and conclusion quickly, so this may not be entirely accurate but to me it reads mostly as if LEO were legitimately were trying hard to run an investigation that they thought needed to be run and were cutting corners to gather evidence. With apologies to Patterico, based on a lot of what I’ve read over the years this behavior on the part of LEO doesn’t surprise me in the slightest.

    I suspect that a lot of people will walk out with the same conclusions they started with, but I don’t think that this is either a fair and proper investigation or deep state attack on Trump. I think is how the police work sometimes when they think you’re guilty and feel a sense of urgency. In other words I don’t think they were out to get Trump, and I don’t think this was AOK.

    Time123 (c9382b)

  175. I don’t think a difference in meaning between saying the confederate flag stood for good things, and speaking supportively about other people who thought the flag stood for good things.
    Time123 (c9382b) — 12/9/2019 @ 5:08 am

    — In what way does describing how a certain percentage of your state’s citizenry feels about a particular symbol count as “speaking supportively”?

    Icy (6abb50)

  176. 158. Time123 (62ed7e) — 12/9/2019 @ 8:08 am

    Based on evidence presented Trump abused the power of his office to force Ukraine to manufacture dirt on Biden.

    That;s not ewhat he did. He didn’t ask Ukraine to manufacture “dirt.” He didn’t ask for awitch hunt. He didn’t ask for fishing expedition. He asked them to look into one specific allegation.

    It would be a better claim to say: For once in is life, Trump tried to check out an allegation before using it politically.

    Sammy Finkelman (fb61e5)

  177. two Black Hebrew Israelits, a group that was present in Washington where the Nathan Phillips thing took place, committted massacre in Jersey City.

    https://www.nytimes.com/2019/12/11/nyregion/jersey-city-shooting.html

    Sammy Finkelman (02a146)


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