Patterico's Pontifications

12/5/2019

Jesus Wept

Filed under: General — Dana @ 3:06 pm



[guest post by Dana]

I mean, He wept hard.

This morning, Nancy Pelosi put her political skills on display when a reporter asked her if she hates Trump. Pelosi, who was already moving off stage, turned around, gave him the stink eye and proceeded to dress him down as she returned to the podium where she would be in full focus and on mic so nothing she said would be missed:

“As A Catholic, I resent you using the word hate in a sentence that addresses me. I don’t hate anyone. I was raised in a way that is heart full of love, and I always pray for the President.”

Good for you for praying for the President, Nancy. But when you’re offended by a reporter associating a word like “hate” with you, and you angrily claim that your Catholicism begets nothing but love in your heart for everyone, there are some third-trimester babies taking it in the back of their fragile little skulls that would like to have a word with you about your definition of “love” and “hate”. If they could speak, that is. And also, if they weren’t dead.

Anyway, Christopher J. Hale, who identifies himself as an Obama campaign alum, TIME opinion contributor & Fox News Democratic regular, and practicing Catholic, posted his reaction to seeing Pelosi masterfully run the table, and I wanted to hit my head against the wall as I realized, this is what today’s Christianity looks like:

I say this with total sincerity: Nancy Pelosi reminds me of Jesus. She’s an enduring witness to truth, to justice, to mercy, and to compassion. The President and his Christian supporters could learn something from her!

If you look at the interaction with James Rosen, I just think the quality of the moment was deeply Christian. It resonated to me in this way: “I don’t hate the man. I’m doing this in service of justice and the common good. I wish him the best, and I pray for him daily.”

In contrast, Trump might actually be the most un-Christian president in our nation’s history—a serial philander who has never asked God for forgiveness and cheated on each of his three wives, including the last one with a porn star while his child was less than a year old.

You can follow the gospel of Jesus Christ or you can follow Donald Trump—a man whose life and character is a total affront to Christ—but you can’t do both.

To believe that Pelosi is an honest representation of Christianity with her righteous indignation, all the while knowing that her compromised faith includes a horrid devaluation of the most innocent lives is a bit mind-boggling. And while Trump is certainly all that Hale claims him to be, it’s a bit rich for Hale to make the serve God or mammon speech after having extolled Pelosi as a paragon of Faith while conveniently ignoring her callousness toward the unborn and blatant disregard for the teachings of the Church.

And it’s not just this particular Democrat’s view of Christianity that I am piling on. It’s the popular Christian figures of the day as well who, in the name of God, have compromised their faith to justify their support of Trump: here, here, here, et cetera. I’m not going to list off the number of God-fearing politicians who have done likewise because that is just a fetid swamp of muck. And besides, we already know who they are, these politicians who talk out of both sides of their mouths. And while I’ve never been a fan, “clowns to the left of me, jokers to the right, here I am, stuck in the middle…” resonates these days.

Anyway, in reading about Pelosi, Hale, and the various “Christian” leaders and politicians who have twisted Christianity to fit their personal and political agendas, I was reminded of this from A.W. Tozer:

“…the cross of popular evangelicalism is not the cross of the New Testament. It is, rather, a new bright ornament upon the bosom of a self-assured and carnal Christianity whose hands are indeed the hands of Abel, but whose voice is the voice of Cain. The old cross slew men; the new cross entertains them. The old cross condemned; the new cross amuses. The old cross destroyed confidence in the flesh; the new cross encourages it. The old cross brought tears and blood; the new cross brings laughter. The flesh, smiling and confident, preaches and sings about the cross; before the cross it bows and toward the cross it points with carefully staged histrionics–but upon that cross it will not die, and the reproach of that cross it stubbornly refuses to bear.”

(Cross-posted at The Jury Talks Back.)

–Dana

73 Responses to “Jesus Wept”

  1. Ugh.

    Dana (643cd6)

  2. Christopher J. Hale also identifies as a practicing Catholic. On the other hand, so did the Borgias.

    nk (dbc370)

  3. Oh, I forgot to add that critical point to the post. Thanks, nk. He also helped with the Catholic outreach for Obama…

    Dana (643cd6)

  4. selling baby parts after killing babies is the san fran nan way

    mg (8cbc69)

  5. I wonder how much “Good Catholic” Pelosi gives to the Catholic Church or Catholic charity? If I’m not mistaken she’s 100 percent behind every left-wing position that conflicts with the Catholic Church. But she cares about “climate change”. She cares about “The Dreamers” aka the illegal aliens. She cares about “Gun violence”.

    Can she be a bigger fraud. And why doesn’t she do her JOB, instead of wasting time on a fake impeachment that will go NO WHERE?

    rcocean (1a839e)

  6. It was a ‘tell’ by a weak sister.

    Multi-hundred page reports, the Mueller Yawn, The Grady Sutton Show followed by ‘Death-Becomes-Him’ Nadler reveals they’ve gone ‘a bridge too far.’

    Should have made the effort to slap The Donald w/censure proceedings the day after Helsinki, and ‘House-broken’ him then, Nancy; like smacking a new pooch w/a rolled up copy of Fortune for fouling the carpet. [He’d have submitted and enjoyed that sort of attention from a female, too!]

    But no. You did nothing, dear.

    Now you clutch your pearls, call to God in exasperation as he pees with pleasure, spotting your rug anywhere and any time he wants.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  7. Her response was bat-bleep crazy, but you can forgive her, since it was probably the toughest question she’s gotten in 3 years. Usually, the DNC media, just asks variations of “What are thinking about Nancy?”.

    rcocean (1a839e)

  8. I’m not Catholic, so I’ve never understood how you can be a Catholic in good standing, and receive communion, even though you use your power to help society violate the teachings of the Church 24/7.

    rcocean (1a839e)

  9. I was raised Presbyterian until wisely ceasing attendance to organized religious services in 1968, so, Nancy, dear, I reserved the right to hate anyone and everyone.

    Of late, that focus is on one soul: Joe Biden.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  10. Today’s Biden Gaffe:

    “Get your words straight, jack!” – barks plagiarist Joe Biden to a voter in Iowa.

    No malarkey: a totally first-class, five-star…

    Idiot.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  11. Trump’s jackleg collection plate specialists are worse. At least Hale does not claim to be an ordained minister or to say no to Pelosi is to say no to God.

    nk (dbc370)

  12. You can be the president

    I’d rather be the pope

    Dave (1bb933)

  13. Sing to her, kids: ‘She’s just too good to be true; she’s so much better than you…’

    “Why would I want to be president when I’m already king of Disneyland?!” – Walt Disney

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  14. I go back a long way. So-called “liberals” are the most hateful people I’ve ever encountered.

    DN (60a24d)

  15. president mr donald also known as trump says he reads the bible more than anybody and i believe him because nobody who reads the bible that much would lie about it and he is the chosen one and king of israel too just for your information

    Dave (1bb933)

  16. @8: Would it make more sense if the bloke giving communion molested kids?

    Munroe (dd6b64)

  17. @14. Not long enough; see HUAC and Tail Gunner Joe McCarthy for details.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  18. @8. So, you didn’t expect a kind of Spanish Inquisition?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FAxkcPoLYcQ

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  19. rcocean (1a839e) — 12/5/2019 @ 4:14 pm

    There was a time when Priests took the Real Presence seriously enough to deny Communion to a person when it would cause scandal to the faithful. I blame the midguided direction of their Bishops, who want to “be nice” and not offend anyone. Even the current Pope is wishy-washy about reception of the Eucharist by non-Catholics.

    Unworthy reception of the Eucharist, whether you believe in the Real Presence or not, is a serious mistake.

    26For as often as you eat this bread and drink this cup, you proclaim the Lord’s death until He comes. 27Therefore, whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of sinning against the body and blood of the Lord. 28Each one must examine himself before he eats of the bread and drinks of the cup.…

    1 Corinthians 11:29
    For anyone who eats and drinks without recognizing the body eats and drinks judgment on himself.

    Hebrews 10:29
    How much more severely do you think one deserves to be punished who has trampled on the Son of God, profaned the blood of the covenant that sanctified him, and insulted the Spirit of grace?

    1 Corinthians 10:21
    Ye cannot drink the cup of the Lord, and the cup of devils: ye cannot be partakers of the Lord’s table, and of the table of devils.

    felipe (023cc9)

  20. And here’s where, despite trying, I seize up and can’t take conservative Christians like Dana seriously.

    Constantly prickly about disrespect shown to your faith, and here you sit demanding your sect’s interpretation substitute for someone else’s and then sit in judgment of her sincerity for failing to do so.

    I guess charity and humility went out of fashion when Reagan sent his only son to be crucified on MSNBC, or something.

    john (cd2753)

  21. Pelosi makes me ill. So I watch this to feel better about her:

    https://www.nbc.com/saturday-night-live/video/nancy-pelosi/n12084

    Simon Jester (d7c864)

  22. There is no US political party that does not cooperate with material evil. You vote Dem, you vote Rep, you are voting for a political party in cooperation with material evil.

    @19 My personal belief is that the decision to take communion is on each person. The knowledge of that person’s worthiness is between themselves and God and the Eucharist isn’t magic. It doesn’t somehow grant some kind of magic power just by taking it. (insert rant about people who think if they just say the right words in the right order in front of the right people it magically makes them more pure and more worthy because prayer is some kind of spell. God you knows your private heart and private thoughts and private actions, people. Just because you tell a bunch of people that you accept him as your personal savior doesn’t make you blameless from the affair you are having with your neighbor’s spouse.)

    Nic (896fdf)

  23. *God knows, not God you knows. Sigh.

    Nic (896fdf)

  24. “@19 My personal belief is that the decision to take communion is on each person.”

    Yes, it is called free-will.

    “The knowledge of that person’s worthiness is between themselves and God…”

    That is true.

    “… and the Eucharist isn’t magic”

    Uh-oh, I sense you are about top go off the rail.

    “It doesn’t somehow grant some kind of magic power just by taking it.”

    Yep. Off. The. Rail. I am certain that NO Christian thinks that, and I am equally certain that you have heard that it does. You are the victim of a hoax.

    ” (insert rant about people who think if they just say the right words in the right order in front of the right people it magically makes them more pure and more worthy because prayer is some kind of spell.”

    Obviously you are familiar with Holy Scripture:

    Matthew 6:7 7And when you pray, do not keep on babbling like pagans, for they think they will be heard because of their many words.

    “God you knows your private heart and private thoughts and private actions, people.”

    That’s right.

    Just because you tell a bunch of people that you accept him as your personal savior doesn’t make you blameless from the affair you are having with your neighbor’s spouse.)
    Nic (896fdf) — 12/5/2019 @ 8:17 pm

    Correct, that would be hypocrisy. But maybe you are volunteering too much information?

    felipe (023cc9)

  25. Unworthy reception of the Eucharist, whether you believe in the Real Presence or not, is a serious mistake.

    In the opinion of Paul?

    What makes his opinion more authoritative than any other believer’s?

    Correct me if I’m wrong, but those scary warnings (one might also say threats) bear no resemblance to what Jesus himself is quoted as saying about communion, do they?

    Dave (1bb933)

  26. @24 I could, without a blush, confess all of my sins to the Pope himself. I live a relatively blameless Catholic life, though I’m afraid I’m not super on top of my Mass attendance.

    There seem to be an unfortunately large number of people who do equate the Eucharist with some kind of magically empowered ambrosia (in the classic religious sense, not in the yummy drink sense) and prayer with a magic spell get out of jail free card. And that if a sinful person takes the Eucharist they are somehow defrauding God of the magic. I’ve know a number of Charismatic Catholics, for example, and they believe some… interesting… things. A sinful person taking the Eucharist does not profane it and only God knows if they get any benefit from it, though I hope they do. Confession is private, not public and, IMO, a priest denying a Catholic the Eucharist can in effect be making it public. I cannot know if this politician or that one confessed and repented to a priest that morning with intent to “Go and sin no more.” unless the priest refuses them communion, and then I can know that they didn’t. And, frankly, the priest serving at Mass can’t know that someone didn’t do the same to another priest. Refusing communion is Pharisitical in my opinion. It’s just public righteousness to display public righteousness. It’s pride.

    Nic (896fdf)

  27. Pelosi and the never Trump flock need the Rosenberg treatment.

    mg (8cbc69)

  28. What makes his opinion more authoritative than any other believer’s?

    Correct me if I’m wrong, but those scary warnings (one might also say threats) bear no resemblance to what Jesus himself is quoted as saying about communion, do they?
    Dave (1bb933) — 12/5/2019 @ 9:59 pm

    Dave, you are wrong on both counts:

    First, Paul’s authority comes from Jesus Himself and is recognized by pretty much everyone but you.

    Second, Jesus gives the ultimate warning about the Eucharist.

    John 6:53-55 53Jesus said to them, “Very truly I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. 54Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day. 55For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink.

    Jesus did not come to condemn, but to save. That is why His emphasis is on salvation. But Jesus, in His perfect Justice, will not stop a sinner bent on self-destruction*. That is the point of all the warnings.

    * The scoffers were aghast at Jesus’ words, saying “how can this man give us his flesh to eat?” Jesus did not stop them when they left and “followed Him no more.”

    felipe (023cc9)

  29. The difficulty is not confessing your sins. It’s not even repenting your sins. The difficulty is knowing that you are going to repeat them.

    You can take that as a joke, or you can take it seriously.

    Picture if you will, Nancy Pelosi on Saturday evening at confession: “Bless me, Father, for I have sinned. Today I let a bill to give $500 million to Planned Parenthood to kill babies with out of committee.” “I absolve you, my child. Say five Our Fathers, and Five Hail Marys, and put five dollars in the poorbox.” Monday morning she votes for passage of the bill. The name of the painting is San Francisco Catholic. In the DC Gallery.

    nk (dbc370)

  30. Nic (896fdf) — 12/6/2019 @ 12:21 am

    Nic, I do not find yours words credible. Your misuse of Christian language betrays your ignorance of the Catholic faith, in particular, and Christianity in general. I have always considered that anyone who has been baptized as Jesus said: “in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit” is a catholic, so if you are baptized in this way, then you are catholic.

    I will pray for your conversion, Nic, and the you may take the time and effort to study the faith so that you may better discharge your Baptismal vows.

    BTW, happy feast day to all named for Saint Nicholas!

    felipe (023cc9)

  31. The difficulty is knowing that you are going to repeat them.

    You can take that as a joke, or you can take it seriously. – nk (dbc370) — 12/6/2019 @ 4:08 am

    Nk, my wise old friend, you are right! This is the problem of “the firm intention to amend one’s life” Jesus said to Mary Magdalene “go, and from now on, sin no more!”

    felipe (023cc9)

  32. There are worse things to do in this joyous season than to take the lady at her word. Even if it’s only taken in the name of forgiveness and hope.

    John B Boddie (0fa0b7)

  33. Your view appears to be that nobody who supports abortion rights, and thus just about no Democrat, can be an authentic Christian or Catholic. I guess that’s a good way of making yourself feel more persecuted and an aggrieved minority, but it doesn’t really reflect reality.

    Victor (a225f9)

  34. Your view appears to be that nobody who supports abortion rights, and thus just about no Democrat, can be an authentic Christian or Catholic. I guess that’s a good way of making yourself feel more persecuted and an aggrieved minority, but it doesn’t really reflect reality.

    Given that the Catholic Church is dead-set against abortion, and has stated its position many times, it’s fair to say that someone who supports abortion is in direct violation of the teachings of the Church. And thus, it’s fair to say that person is not an “authentic” Catholic.

    Dana’s opinion reflects reality pretty well.

    Chuck Bartowski (bc1c71)

  35. First, Paul’s authority comes from Jesus Himself and is recognized by pretty much everyone but you.

    Fascinating. In which verse(s) of the gospel does Jesus confer authority to speak for him on Paul?

    I realize that, historically, Paul’s writings have been accepted as part of the Bible.

    Second, Jesus gives the ultimate warning about the Eucharist.

    John 6:53-55 53Jesus said to them, “Very truly I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. 54Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day. 55For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink.

    That says the opposite of what you quoted Paul as saying. Jesus says whoever takes communion is saved by virtue of doing so.

    The passages from Paul that you quoted imply whoever takes communion must be saved before doing so.

    Dave (1bb933)

  36. “Shut up, Dave”, nk explained. “And furthermore”, nk continued, “Google road to Damascus!” nk refrained from saying: Flaming atheists explaining our religion to us! Sheesh!

    nk (dbc370)

  37. “Shut up, Dave”, nk explained.

    *nods slowly*

    “And furthermore”, nk continued, “Google road to Damascus!”

    Right, Paul says he speaks for Jesus. That’s a bit different from Jesus saying the same thing, isn’t it?

    nk refrained from saying: Flaming atheists explaining our religion to us! Sheesh!

    Which flaming atheist are you referring to – Saul or Dave?

    Dave (1bb933)

  38. That says the opposite of what you quoted Paul as saying. Jesus says whoever takes communion is saved by virtue of doing so.

    The passages from Paul that you quoted imply whoever takes communion must be saved before doing so.
    Dave (1bb933) — 12/6/2019 @ 7:33 am

    Dave, Dave, Dave. You are wrong. In the first instance, the two propositions are not mutually exclusive. In the second instance, no such thing has ever been implied by anyone but you.

    felipe (cfae78)

  39. I like the new, gentler, nk.

    felipe (cfae78)

  40. I like seeing the commenters I enjoy discussing things without all the nasty craziness I see everywhere.

    Thank you.

    Simon Jester (c8876d)

  41. Let me be charitable, Dave. Perhaps you mistake being in a “state of grace” for being saved*. The first ( being in a state of grace, which is always temporary)is the a secondary requirement to receiving Communion worthily (the primary requirement is the understanding and the belief that the Eucharist is truly Jesus; the second (“saved” is determined after death, and not before, since the “race is not yet done.”

    Why not before? Because of free-will. You will always have the opportunity to “blow it.”

    * “being saved” is not a Catholic thing. If any Catholic is asked “are you saved?” The correct answer is to say, “Yes, I am Baptized.” Because “being saved” stems from being born-again, by which Jesus means “baptized.” Jesus explains this to:

    John 3:4

    “Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother’s womb, and be born?”

    felipe (cfae78)

  42. In the first instance, the two propositions are not mutually exclusive.

    The two propositions “The sky is blue” and “I am the queen of England” are not mutually exclusive either. But neither does one tell us anything about the truth of the other, as you suggested by offering John 6:54 as support for 1 Cor 11:27-29.

    In the second instance, no such thing has ever been implied by anyone but you.

    Didn’t you say: “Unworthy reception of the Eucharist, whether you believe in the Real Presence or not, is a serious mistake”?

    Paul says (1 Cor 11:27-29): One must be “worthy” (your word) before receiving communion.

    Jesus says (John 6:53-54): Whoever receives communion becomes “worthy” (saved) by virtue of doing so.

    Dave (1bb933)

  43. I like the new, gentler, nk.

    I kind of promised Dana I’d watch my language on her threads.

    nk (dbc370)

  44. s “worthy” (saved) by virtue of doing so.

    this ia where you go wrong. “worthy” and “saved” are not the same thing. If you think so, then your understanding is wrong.

    felipe (cfae78)

  45. Let me be charitable, Dave. Perhaps you mistake being in a “state of grace” for being saved*. The first ( being in a state of grace, which is always temporary)is the a secondary requirement to receiving Communion worthily (the primary requirement is the understanding and the belief that the Eucharist is truly Jesus; the second (“saved” is determined after death, and not before, since the “race is not yet done.”

    OK. In my understanding “being saved” is what Jesus is talking about when he says:

    Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.

    Similar statements about eternal life are used in many passages of the gospel, including, for example, John 3:16.

    “being saved” is not a Catholic thing. If any Catholic is asked “are you saved?” The correct answer is to say, “Yes, I am Baptized.” Because “being saved” stems from being born-again, by which Jesus means “baptized.”

    Right, and my “doctrinal” understanding comes mainly from talking with my mother, who was a Pentecostal minister. To her, being saved meant “accepting Jesus Christ as your lord and savior”. Having done that (once) you are saved for all eternity, as far as I understood. They practiced sacraments like baptism and communion, but the only essential act was a personal decision to “accept Jesus Christ as your lord and savior”.

    It probably won’t surprise you to hear that she took a dim view of Catholic teaching and practices. She spent most of her career as a minister in the Philippines.

    Dave (1bb933)

  46. And here’s where, despite trying, I seize up and can’t take conservative Christians like Dana seriously.

    Constantly prickly about disrespect shown to your faith, and here you sit demanding your sect’s interpretation substitute for someone else’s and then sit in judgment of her sincerity for failing to do so.

    I guess charity and humility went out of fashion when Reagan sent his only son to be crucified on MSNBC, or something.

    John,

    I’m not a Catholic but I am well aware of the Church teachings on matters like abortion. It’s a full no-go. This isn’t hard: Pelosi is a practicing Catholic. So steeped in Catholicism that she claims that “hate” is not even on the radar of her life and love is all she knows. Yet at the same time she is saying this, she is not only wholly supporting the killing of babies in the womb through the the third-trimester, but she is also using her powerful political position to push back against efforts to end late-term abortions. IOW, the woman who claims she harbors no hate in her heart for anyone and has only love for all, is fine with killing late-term babies. I don’t know your definitions of “love” and “hate,” but I’m guessing it differs radically from mine.

    Dana (643cd6)

  47. this is where you go wrong. “worthy” and “saved” are not the same thing. If you think so, then your understanding is wrong.

    Or different from yours and/or your church’s (since Pelosi belongs to the same church, obviously that church’s view is certainly relevant here).

    But in any event you have still not cited any passage in which Christ says you need to be “worthy”, or pass any other test, to take communion (he only says to do it to remember him, so doing it for some other reason would be inappropriate).

    Dave (1bb933)

  48. Dave (1bb933) — 12/6/2019 @ 9:00 am
    that was a well written comment. Thank, Dave.

    felipe (cfae78)

  49. But in any event you have still not cited any passage in which Christ says you need to be “worthy”, or pass any other test, to take communion (he only says to do it to remember him, so doing it for some other reason would be inappropriate).
    Dave (1bb933) — 12/6/2019 @ 9:12 am

    You are quite right. I haven’t.

    (he only says to do it to remember him, so doing it for some other reason would be inappropriate).

    Again, you go wrong. Why is doing it for “some other reason” wrong? If I “do it” because I love God, and want to be closer to Him, then how is it inappropriate? Of course to “do it” would require the recognition of the Real Presence.

    The Catholic Church’s stance on Communion is based on the revelations and writings of those who were “there,” and have stood the test of time. I hope you understand that your understanding hasn’t even stood the test of today.

    felipe (cfae78)

  50. that was a well written comment. Thank, Dave.
    felipe (cfae78) — 12/6/2019 @ 9:28 am

    Gakk! Of course, I meant “thank you”
    I also appreciate your comportment.

    felipe (cfae78)

  51. Pentecostals. Well, that explains it. They belong to Arminianism, that branch of Christianity which believes that Christianity was founded by Jean Calvin in the 16th century and that he was wrong. Of course they’d have different views from Catholics. As far as they’re concerned, there are only two kinds of Christians, Calvinists and Arminians (not to be confused with Armenians a people from a small country in the Caucasus between Turkey, Georgia, and Azerbaijan).

    nk (dbc370)

  52. I did not expect this thread to turn into a doctrinal dispute over issues in play since the days of Calvin and Luther. Being a more simple guy, I guess, I took Dana’s post as a plea to stop making religious figures out of our secular politicians. Pelosi is not Jesus or reminiscent of Jesus or a good source of Catholic doctrine. She does not raise the dead. She raises campaign funds.

    Appalled (1a17de)

  53. “Given that the Catholic Church is dead-set against abortion, and has stated its position many times…”

    If by Catholic Church you mean the pope and his bishops, sure. If by the Church you mean the body of persons calling themselves Catholic, less so. It’s not clear to me, as an outsider, why I should believe the pope is the last word on the Catholic point of view

    https://www.pewforum.org/religious-landscape-study/religious-tradition/catholic/views-about-abortion/

    More to the point, the general claim that those who support abortion rights means they can’t be authentic Christians seems simply to ensure that ‘Christians” are a minority of America and can thus portray themselves as oppressed. A definition of Christian that was a little broader would make the claims of victimhood a little harder to hold.

    Victor (a225f9)

  54. Funny.
    She reminds me more of Beelzebub, Lord of the Flies.

    I’m confident Pelosi’s Jesus will be voting for impeachment. How would your Jesus vote?
    My Jesus yet again, is not interested in much of this nonsense, but reserves the right to intervene at anytime and in any way for no other reason than because.

    steveg (354706)

  55. If by Catholic Church you mean the pope and his bishops, sure. If by the Church you mean the body of persons calling themselves Catholic, less so.

    The teachings of the Church come from the pope and members of the clergy. They are based on Scripture and other religious writings (such as St. Augustine and Thomas Aquinas). They are not based on “people calling themselves Catholic”.

    Let me draw an analogy. The Democratic Party decides on its platform: the things it believes in. If a person claims to be a Democrat — and even registers as as Democrat — and yet works against every element of the party’s platform, then he’s not an authentic Democrat.

    It’s not clear to me, as an outsider, why I should believe the pope is the last word on the Catholic point of view

    It’s not clear to me why you, as an outsider, get to decide on what constitutes an authentic Catholic. The Church makes its own rules. It’s like any club creating qualifications for members. You can accept them or not, but since you aren’t part of the group, it doesn’t matter whether you do.

    Chuck Bartowski (bc1c71)

  56. Busy be the charlatans who cloak themselves with self-anointed, righteous, religious indignation: politicians and clergy.

    “Never give a sucker an even break or smarten up a chump.” – Larsen E. Whipsnade [W.C. Fields] ‘You Can’t Cheat An Honest Man’ 1939

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  57. I took Dana’s post as a plea to stop making religious figures out of our secular politicians.

    That’s not what i took out of it. What I took out of it, was the screaming hypocrisy and dishonesty of a hack politician who stands against very catholic position that conflicts with Left-wing or DNC dogma, proclaiming she can’t “Hate” because she’s Catholic. How in the world is Pelosi, “Catholic”?

    How often does she go to Mass? How much has she given to Charity? When has she fought for religious liberty or tried to appoint judges that would support that? Ted Kennedy was a “Catholic”. What did he EVER do, as a public official, to help Christians in the USA? If Ted Kennedy policy positions were no different then a Left-wing secular Jew or atheist. Pelosi is no different. Why do you think she’s a Congressman from that great “Christian” City of SF?

    rcocean (1a839e)

  58. On the other hand, Trump was sent by God.

    Davethulhu (fab944)

  59. @30 Ah, I see we are at the point in the conversation where you need my credentials. Cradle Roman Catholic. Family of cradle Catholics. Catholic elementary, high school, university. More theology classes than I care to think about, more Thomas Aquinas than I really wanted to read. Quite a few church council documents. Augustine wasn’t always a good person, St. Anselm isn’t particularly convincing and while Chesterton seems to speak eloquently to converts, I’ve never really been enthralled.

    Now, so far in this conversation you have called me an adulterer, a liar and either willfully ignorant or an apostate, it was hard to tell which. Maybe instead of stooping to name calling, you could perhaps have actually discussed the points with which you disagreed.

    Nic (bad3df)

  60. Davethulhu (fab944) — 12/6/2019 @ 3:49 pm

    I can sorta agree with that. In a ten plagues of Egypt kinda way, only a plague on the Democrats.

    felipe (023cc9)

  61. Today’s Biden Gaffe:

    John Kerry.

    The two on camera made for one dull Ensure commercial. More medical procedures between them than an entire season of Grey’s Anatomy.

    Idiots.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  62. Nic (bad3df) — 12/6/2019 @ 4:34 pm

    Get a grip, nic. All the credentials you need can be manufactured – you’ll be fine.

    felipe (023cc9)

  63. @62 Ah, still going with strategy 1, I see. Excellently convincing, you should totally keep going with that.

    Nic (bad3df)

  64. I, too, am grateful for the civil and interesting (for me anyway) discussion.

    (he only says to do it to remember him, so doing it for some other reason would be inappropriate).

    Again, you go wrong. Why is doing it for “some other reason” wrong? If I “do it” because I love God, and want to be closer to Him, then how is it inappropriate? Of course to “do it” would require the recognition of the Real Presence.

    I would say doing it because you love god and want to be closer to him would be in accord with Jesus’s instruction to “do this to remember me”.

    I simply meant that this was the only “restriction” Christ’s own words could be read to impose, and that Paul’s admonitions you cited seem to go far beyond it.

    The Catholic Church’s stance on Communion is based on the revelations and writings of those who were “there,” and have stood the test of time. I hope you understand that your understanding hasn’t even stood the test of today.

    Certainly, if one accepts that Paul’s words somehow have god’s authority behind them (as their inclusion in the Bible implies, and as Catholics and essentially all other Christians seem to do) my view is heresy, yes.

    Dave (1bb933)

  65. Dave (1bb933) — 12/6/2019 @ 5:19 pm

    I appreciate your comment, Dave.

    felipe (023cc9)

  66. It’s okay, Dave. In the first place the Greek Orthodox Church never had an inquisition, and in the second place I, myself, don’t believe in nuclear physics.

    nk (dbc370)

  67. I, myself, don’t believe in nuclear physics.

    The last Higgs boson I spoke to didn’t think much of you, either.

    Dave (1bb933)

  68. Oh, come on! It’s not like I mentioned snake-handling, speaking in tongues, and floor-length bib-front denim skirts even once so far.

    nk (dbc370)

  69. Dont get me started on Ben Carson’s crew. For both being annoying as F to the general population, I was surprised at the level of enmity between seventh-Days and Jehova Witnesses.

    urbanleftbehind (5fc87a)

  70. felipe and Dave, this is our pre-Communion Prayer:

    I believe and confess, Lord, that You are truly the Christ, the Son of the living God, Who came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am the first. I also believe that this is truly Your pure Body and that this is truly Your precious Blood. Therefore, I pray to You, have mercy upon me, and forgive my transgressions, voluntary and involuntary, in word and deed, in knowledge or in ignorance. And make me worthy, without condemnation, to partake of Your pure Mysteries for the remission of sins and for eternal life. Amen.

    Behold, I approach for Divine Communion.
    O Maker, burn me not as I partake,
    For You are fire consuming the unworthy.
    But cleanse me from every stain.

    O Son of God, receive me today as a partaker of Your mystical supper. For I will not speak of the mystery to Your enemies, nor will I give You a kiss, as did Judas. But like the thief, I confess to You: Remember me, Lord, in Your Kingdom.

    Tremble, O man, as you behold the divine Blood.
    It is a burning coal that sears the unworthy.
    The Body of God both deifies and nourishes me:
    It deifies the Spirit and wondrously nourishes the mind.

    You have smitten me with yearning, O Christ, and by Your divine eros You have changed me. But burn up with spiritual fire my sins, and grant me to be filled with delight in You, so that, leaping for joy, I may magnify, O Good One, Your two comings.

    How shall I, who am unworthy, enter into the splendor of Your saints? If I should dare to enter into the bridal chamber, my vesture will condemn me, since it is not a wedding garment; and being bound up, I shall be cast out by the angels. Cleanse, O Lord, the filth of my soul, and save me, as You are the one Who loves mankind. In Your love, Lord, cleanse my soul, and save me.

    Master Who loves mankind, Lord Jesus Christ, my God, let not these Holy Gifts be to my judgment because I am unworthy, but rather for the purification and sanctification of both soul and body and the pledge of the life and Kingdom to come. It is good for me to cleave unto God and to place in Him the hope of my salvation.

    O Son of God, receive me today as a partaker of Your mystical supper. For I will not speak of the mystery to Your enemies, nor will I give You a kiss, as did Judas. But like the thief, I confess to You: Remember me, Lord, in Your Kingdom.

    You can find the entire liturgy here. The wedding garment in the Prayer refers to the Parable of the Great Banquet in Matthew. The Gospels are more than isolated quotes.

    nk (dbc370)

  71. Those are such beautiful prayers! Thank you for sharing them. Indeed, this is my favorite:

    How shall I, who am unworthy, enter into the splendor of Your saints? If I should dare to enter into the bridal chamber, my vesture will condemn me, since it is not a wedding garment; and being bound up, I shall be cast out by the angels. Cleanse, O Lord, the filth of my soul, and save me, as You are the one Who loves mankind. In Your love, Lord, cleanse my soul, and save me.

    felipe (023cc9)

  72. You know, nk, I went to Confession last night, so I am well disposed to receive these prayers.

    felipe (023cc9)

  73. You’re welcome, felipe. It’s a long copypasta. I’m glad you liked it.

    nk (dbc370)


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