WaPo Headline: “Austere Religious Scholar” Dies; Reality: Most Wanted Top ISIS Monster Dies
[guest post by Dana]
Terrific news from the White House:
Trump addressed the country this morning from the White House to declare the death of Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi. The President said a US special operations forces mission went after the ISIS leader and there were no US deaths during the operation.
Several ISIS fighters and companions of al-Baghdadi were killed, including two women wearing suicide vests and three children. Trump would not provide a specific number of casualties, only describing those targeted on scene as “more dead than alive.” Eleven children were moved out of the house and are uninjured, the President said.
The death of al-Baghdadi marks the culmination of a years-long hunt to find one of the most wanted terrorists in the world and the man who declared a so-called Islamic caliphate in Iraq and Syria in 2014.
Here is a portion of President Trump’s statement on the mission:
Last night, the United States brought the world’s number one terrorist leader to justice. Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi is dead. He was the founder and leader of ISIS, the most ruthless and violent terror organization in the World. The United States has been searching for Baghdadi for many years. Capturing or killing Baghdadi has been the top national security priority of my Administration. U.S. Special Operations forces executed a dangerous and daring nighttime raid into Northwestern Syria to accomplish this mission.
No U.S. personnel were lost in the operation, while a large number of Baghdadi’s fighters and companions were killed with him. He died after running into a dead-end tunnel, whimpering and crying and screaming. The compound had been cleared by this time, with people either surrendering or being shot and killed. Eleven young children were moved out of the house un-injured. The only ones remaining were Baghdadi in the tunnel, who had dragged three children with him to certain death. He reached the end of the tunnel, as our dogs chased him down. He ignited his vest, killing himself and the three children. His body was mutilated by the blast, but test results gave certain and positive identification.
The thug who tried so hard to intimidate others spent his last moments in utter fear, panic and dread – terrified of the American Forces bearing down.
We were in the compound for approximately 2 hours, and after the mission was accomplished we took highly sensitive material and information from the raid.
Baghdadi’s demise demonstrates America’s relentless pursuit of terrorist leaders, and our commitment to the enduring and total defeat of ISIS!
The President also expressed his thanks to first, Russia, then Turkey, Syria and Iraq, and finally, he thanked our allies, the Syrian Kurds for certain support they lent the US. There are any number of details about the mission that would be interesting to know.
Finally, as the title of this post notes, the Washington Post felt it their Democracy Dies in Darkness duty to solemnly honor monstrous terrorist Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi on headline of today’s edition before they didn’t:
They had it right the first time.
The Washington Post changed the headline on its Al-Baghdadi obituary from “Islamic State’s terrorist-in-Chief” to “austere religious scholar at helm of Islamic State.” pic.twitter.com/cs243EVz7W
— Yashar Ali 🐘 (@yashar) October 27, 2019
I’m not going to post anything from Al-Baghdadi’s obituary at The Post, because if you are one of the biggest media outfits around, and you aren’t even clear about what a vile, vicious monstrous POS Al-Baghdadi was, then why would I care what you have to say about him or his life or, well, anything? Disgraceful.
(Cross-posted at The Jury Talks Back.)
–Dana
Good morning.
Dana (05f22b) — 10/27/2019 @ 9:55 amStill, the ‘monster’ had a great Halloween outfit; tricked and treated on his own special Hell Night. Boom!
DCSCA (797bc0) — 10/27/2019 @ 10:05 amIf the news media still wonders why most of America hates them, this is a great example
B.A. DuBois (80f588) — 10/27/2019 @ 10:36 amA good reminder is that this should be posted every time someone cites the Washington Post as their objective source.
NJRob (432830) — 10/27/2019 @ 10:43 amJust wait until tonight when Trump shows up at the World Series and hear the stadium crowds cheer.
DCSCA (797bc0) — 10/27/2019 @ 10:46 amIt sounds like the Syrian Kurds provided human intel on the ground.
steveg (354706) — 10/27/2019 @ 10:52 amProbably more dangerous than the military raid if you figure the amount of pain you’d go through if captured spying.
The WaPo is unable to say anything that is positive about Trump and have been that way going back the the primary campaign. Any glance at their web front page, any day, will tell you that in a few seconds. They lessen his successes and trumpet his failures. This is just par for the course.
Kevin M (19357e) — 10/27/2019 @ 11:21 am#6, and then Trump betrayed them and said “They’re not angels,” and all his apologists said “Who really cares about the Kurds?”
Our military officials are saying they had to act quickly before they completely lost the advantages of a presence in the region — i.e. to minimize the damage that Trump did.
And then Trump proceeded to publicize operational secrets, while claiming that he got a bigger terrorist than Obama did, and that he’s better at using the internet than ISIS is.
Radegunda (68077f) — 10/27/2019 @ 11:22 amJust wait until tonight when Trump shows up at the World Series and hear the stadium crowds cheer.
I know this is sarcastic, but I’m not sure it’s wrong.
Kevin M (19357e) — 10/27/2019 @ 11:22 am#7 — that’s been par for the course concerning Republicans for a long time. But Trump praises himself quite enough to compensate, and his devotees tend to think that every news story not favorable to Trump is a lie.
Radegunda (68077f) — 10/27/2019 @ 11:28 amA pile of dog feces which is in the Oval Office when our soldiers kill a terrorist leader remains a pile of dog feces. My kudos go to the soldiers. Trump can go and “snog” with Erdogan.
https://www.foxnews.com/politics/trump-states-al-baghdadi-was-whimpering-and-crying-before-death-in-u-s-operation-he-died-like-a-coward
nk (dbc370) — 10/27/2019 @ 11:31 amWhat would you know about it, daffodil?
I am glad Trump got this man and stopped his evil acts. I am glad Trump was able to refrain from talking about it beforehand, or at least I hope he did. It is not bigger than getting Bin Laden but it is important.
DRJ (15874d) — 10/27/2019 @ 11:31 amThis is why we have Trump, and why Trump will be re-elected. If the MSM cannot bring itself to call a terrorist a terrorist, then there is something fundamentally rotten there.
Bored Lawyer (423ce8) — 10/27/2019 @ 11:32 amI suspect we already had this intelligence, steveg, but we acted now because moving our troops out would make acting on it harder.
DRJ (15874d) — 10/27/2019 @ 11:33 amFox and WaPo, two fangs on the same snake. Both spew poison, just in a different direction.
nk (dbc370) — 10/27/2019 @ 11:33 amThe order of thanks offered by the President (Russia first, our Syrian Kurds allies, last) was noted by me in the post. However, Trump’s national security advisor cautions me not to read anything into it:
Dana (05f22b) — 10/27/2019 @ 11:37 amI have to admit some doubts about the whimpering and crying thing. It doesn’t match with using the suicide vest. So my suspicion is that either he wasn’t whimpering and crying and used the vest or he was and we did something that set off the vest, or he was and we blew him up and there never was a vest.
Nic (896fdf) — 10/27/2019 @ 11:40 amI got a feeling the cheers would be louder at Minute Maid…with Ted pulling Lindsay out of a certain place… than at Nationals Park.
urbanleftbehind (76b087) — 10/27/2019 @ 11:41 amI fully expect the WaPo to start a GoFundMe campaign to help the surviving members of Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi’s family.
Dana (05f22b) — 10/27/2019 @ 11:42 amNic, as Hillary Clinton once said 7 years ago, wh.. . . . ..ke?
urbanleftbehind (76b087) — 10/27/2019 @ 11:43 amHopefully everyone had on their seatbelts and didn’t get whiplash. There was already a talking head on the boob tube this morning trying to explain how this actually made ISIS stronger and more dangerous.
I’ll reiterate an earlier comment; this is a good time for NeverTrump to give Trump some credit, even just a little, so that they don’t sound ridiculous trying to find ways to turn this into a bad thing.
Frosty, Fp (2ad3a7) — 10/27/2019 @ 11:43 amI have no doubts. “Trump said it? It’s a lie.”
And considering that the orange is constantly whimpering and crying when nobody is trying to kill him, he should save his mouth for what Stephen Colbert said.
nk (dbc370) — 10/27/2019 @ 11:44 am@14 Are you saying we could have rolled him up anytime? If we had this actionable intelligence why not act on it before now? What were we saving it for?
Sort of, we’re leaving town so why don’t we go ahead and wrap up this thing with the leader of ISIS?
Frosty, Fp (2ad3a7) — 10/27/2019 @ 11:53 amIf Trump got hold of a time machine and went back to September 1939 and somehow killed Adolf Hitler, the WaPo would probably run a headline saying “Austrian Artist Who Attempted Reforms in Germany Assassinated; Italians Protest; Princeton Historian Likens Killing to That of Lincoln.”
JVW (54fd0b) — 10/27/2019 @ 11:54 amI am glad Trump was able to refrain from talking about it beforehand, or at least I hope he did.
Clearly he’s “growing in office.”
Oh man, sometimes I crack myself up.
JVW (54fd0b) — 10/27/2019 @ 11:56 amDPRK News is all over it.
Paul Montagu (00daa1) — 10/27/2019 @ 12:00 pmIf Trump got hold of a time machine and went back to September 1939,
nk (dbc370) — 10/27/2019 @ 12:00 pmhe’d do what his daddy did: Dodge the draft and get rich building military barracks.
Or, we acted now so our miniscule forces in the region weren’t killed in a potential counterattack.
Or, we moved or troops out so we could give the scumbag a false sense security prior to our attack.
We may never know, thanks to having a president that doesn’t leak out essential information.
BuDuh (a9fb95) — 10/27/2019 @ 12:03 pm@24. ROFLMAOPIP, JVW
DCSCA (797bc0) — 10/27/2019 @ 12:06 pmOur thanks for the killing of al-Baghdadi goes to the Americans in our intelligence community, along with “Iraqi and Kurdish intelligence officials in Iraq and Syria.” No mention of Russians or Turks in this report, so there was no point in Trump thanking them except that he likes to suck off dictators. The only thing Putin had to do was get out of the f*cking way while we conducted our op.
Paul Montagu (00daa1) — 10/27/2019 @ 12:07 pm@18. LOL Can’t help but notice the sponsorship panels at MM when they do a plate-to-mound take on the TeeVee— Conoco-Phillips; Chevron… and Halliburton. Too funny.
DCSCA (797bc0) — 10/27/2019 @ 12:10 pm@30. The hair-splitters will race to their corners to spin it anyway– besides, the only “person” to ‘thank’ is Al-Baghdadi: he blew himself up.
DCSCA (797bc0) — 10/27/2019 @ 12:14 pm17. Nic (896fdf) — 10/27/2019 @ 11:40 am
We’re going to have to get things more first hand.
From Mike Pence, this was not in the video feed, but could have come from talking to the commanders. Mike Pence didn’t sound so sure about that.
Of course it could be that Baghdadi was afraid of being bitten by the dogs, and being killed by an explosion wasn’t so read for him, like some people shooting themselves with a gun, like it wouldn’t hurt.
Or the yelling and the screaming was at the children to come with him, and the whimpering maybe was a misperception unless he thought that was a way to calm the dog(s)
Or it was one of the children who whimpered.
[Note to Google Chrome or is it the blog software? “Misperception” is a word and it’s spelled right – Google says so]
Or maybe it’s something of a game of telephone. Or maybe Trump couldn’t resist throwing in a lie. I think if that is completely wrong, it is not something Trump made up but somebody else did.
I’d say Baghdadi was making some sounds – perhaps described differently by different people. It’s not based on nothing – but something’s wrong with that sceario, yes, and we need to get something more first hand to know.
They seem to be clear that it was 3 of his 6 children (that they think he had) who he killed with him.
On the other hand, they don’t seem to be so sure who the remaining 11 children were.
Sammy Finkelman (6c9102) — 10/27/2019 @ 12:16 pm32. DCSCA (797bc0) — 10/27/2019 @ 12:14 pm
It was either that, or be at the mercy of the dog(s) At least one dog was close and was injured.
Dogs, unlike people, do not respect human shields. And target better.
Sammy Finkelman (6c9102) — 10/27/2019 @ 12:19 pm@34. The SoD said the mission was to ‘capture and if unable, kill.’ He obliged. Interesting tidbit noted that unlike the Bin Laden raid, where they literally only had a few minutes to grab up any loose intel, this time they had at least two hours to pick through the dead and debris to gather up intel goodies.
DCSCA (797bc0) — 10/27/2019 @ 12:28 pmSeriously wtf is wrong with WaPo? They do a lot of really good journalism and then go and sick their d*7K in a light socket.
Time123 (d54166) — 10/27/2019 @ 12:32 pmI like the idea of an Islamofascist being torn to shreds by “unclean” dogs. Too bad this twerp had his boom-boom vest on and that his last act on earth was to take three innocent children with him.
JVW (54fd0b) — 10/27/2019 @ 12:33 pm@33 Could be. I should be clear that I don’t actually have any trouble with any of the possible scenarios that I outlined, I just have the vague desire that we might be told the straight story (as much as they can tell us anyway).
Nic (896fdf) — 10/27/2019 @ 12:34 pmRelease the videos- redacted where necessary to protect trooper ID. All for it– just as with release images o/t the dead slaughtered at mass shootings. A picture is worth a thousand words. Ask a Marine using a zippo on a hut in Vietnam– or a Saigon police chief popping a prisoner in the head w/his pistol– not, BTW, on Fifth Avenue.
DCSCA (797bc0) — 10/27/2019 @ 12:53 pmUm, right, and special ops just happened to be there. It doesn’t matter how he reacted (he was either going to be captured or dead), we got him, and it took Americans in our intelligence community along with Iraqis and Kurds to make it happen.
Paul Montagu (cf3208) — 10/27/2019 @ 1:23 pm37. JVW (54fd0b) — 10/27/2019 @ 12:33 pm
The dogs probably wouldn’t have torn him to shreds (they were probably better trained and disciplined) but he didn’t know that.
Sammy Finkelman (6c9102) — 10/27/2019 @ 1:25 pm35. DCSCA (797bc0) — 10/27/2019 @ 12:28 pm
Sammy Finkelman (6c9102) — 10/27/2019 @ 1:32 pmWe have a president who gave away operational secrets during his announcement, thus compromising future actions.
We have the word of military officials that Trump’s rash action “disrupted planning for the raid and forced the Pentagon to press ahead with a risky night operation.”
According to military & intelligence & counterterrorism officials, the killing of al-Baghdadi happened largely in spite of Trump’s actions, not because of them.
But the Trumpsters believe that anyone who impugns the wisdom of Donald Trump is a Deep State traitor. In the bizarro world of the faithful, Trump is the only honest patriot in D.C., and a stable genius too.
Radegunda (68077f) — 10/27/2019 @ 1:41 pmTrump said the video was good enough so it was like watching a movie.
I don’t know why Trump was so reluctant to mention they took off from Iraq. Probably diplomatic or legal or Iraqi political reasons. But he thanked Iraq.
He also thanked Russia Turkey and Syria probably because they overflew areas held by their militaries, and Syrian Kurds because they supplied information.
Baghdadi kept a lot of cash with him. Probably Dollars and Euros.
Trump referred to the “judgement of God” which he said Hamza bin Laden would not escape.
https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefings-statements/statement-president-death-abu-bakr-al-baghdadi <blockquote? As you know, last month we announced that we recently killed Hamza Bin Laden, the very violent son of Osama Bin Laden, who was saying very bad things.
He was the heir apparent to Al Qaeda. Terrorists who oppress and murder innocent people should never sleep soundly, knowing that we will completely destroy them. These savage monsters will not escape their fate – and they will not escape the final judgement of God. Trump in the Q&A:
They use the Internet better than probably anybody else except Donald Trump.
Sammy Finkelman (6c9102) — 10/27/2019 @ 1:49 pm36. You might want to get yourself checked for Gell-Mann amnesia.
Gryph (08c844) — 10/27/2019 @ 1:52 pmThis is also good news. We were probably waiting to kill or capture al-Baghdadi before taking out al-Baghdadi’s righthand man and spokesman.
Paul Montagu (00daa1) — 10/27/2019 @ 1:55 pmThe third version of the Washington Post obituary headline is:
Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi, extremist leader of Islamic State, dies at 48.
But where did this description of him as austere religious scholar at helm of Islamic State come from? It must have been prepared in advance.
The obituary is still, of course, somewhat favorable.
Sammy Finkelman (6c9102) — 10/27/2019 @ 2:05 pmDonald Trump says nice things to say about Putin, Erdogan, Maduro, Duterte, and Kim Jong Il. He would have said nice things about Baghdadi if it helped him. Plus he likes to insult people. It makes him feel powerful.
DRJ (15874d) — 10/27/2019 @ 2:17 pmThere is a certain irony in this: Trump has demonstrated that we are the world’s policeman, despite his best efforts to abandon that position.
Kishnevi (07ebcc) — 10/27/2019 @ 2:19 pmWell, how far are news publishers from technology that tailors a headline to a user based on there web preferences etc just to avoid the contro
urbanleftbehind (76b087) — 10/27/2019 @ 2:26 pmTrue, kishnevi. Good point. Apparently Trump is happy to have it that way.
DRJ (15874d) — 10/27/2019 @ 2:37 pmWhile Trump was accurate in saying that al-Baghdadi is dead, most of the rest was a raft of made-up sh*t.
Paul Montagu (319ea2) — 10/27/2019 @ 2:42 pmShould we care that Trump refused to follow the law and notify Congress? Or is this just one more legal issue Trump, Obama, and future Presidents expect us to ignore?
DRJ (15874d) — 10/27/2019 @ 3:40 pmI care. What law did he refuse to follow?
BuDuh (a9fb95) — 10/27/2019 @ 3:56 pmAt least he didn’t kill an American citizen on foreign soil (I think Obama did that IIRC).
JRH (52aed3) — 10/27/2019 @ 4:01 pmnot that the guy didn’t deserve it. But killing without any kind of judicial process makes me queasy, even for non-citizens. I didn’t quite by the official story re: Bin Laden, not the celebrating that followed it, evil as he was.
JRH (52aed3) — 10/27/2019 @ 4:03 pm*nor like he celebrating that followed it.
JRH (52aed3) — 10/27/2019 @ 4:06 pm@47. You know who gets stuck w/t chore of quilling obits for file, Sammy. This always comes back to poor or inattentive editing– usually on weekends, too. At a paper I worked at years ago we once had a rather obscene limerick that got past the typesetters and was buried in the micro-type of the classified page which was routinely run and rerun for several weeks– until an editor perusing the page spotted it over lunch one afternoon.
DCSCA (797bc0) — 10/27/2019 @ 4:28 pmIn this instance, the obituary was the work of a WaPo terrorism expert. You will find a list of his articles here:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/people/joby-warrick/
He seems familiar enough with ISIS to have not committed a simple error that the editors should have weeded out. it was purposeful.
BuDuh (a9fb95) — 10/27/2019 @ 4:41 pmTrump did not notify Congress pursuant to the Consolidated Appropriations Act, 2019, Division F, and its successor, and pursuant to this statute.
DRJ (15874d) — 10/27/2019 @ 4:43 pm56. Killing without any kind of judicial process is not bringing someone to justice, although perhaps it is so universally understood, that we can safely describe it that way without too much distortion, especially considering the difficulty of bring him to justice.
And also this is a is a case where someone is militarily active and was maybe about to start up again in a whole new theater of battle.
Sammy Finkelman (6c9102) — 10/27/2019 @ 4:44 pmYou;d think maybe ISIS was supported by China, the way that obituary had it.
Sammy Finkelman (6c9102) — 10/27/2019 @ 4:45 pmI will have a look at the links, DRJ.
This, from the second link, stands out to me:
But I willl look at the first and the third link to see if I can discern a specific law that The President didn’t follow.
To help me understand, would the law that he didn’t follow also be a factor if he had decided to stay in Syria and fight Turkish forces?
BuDuh (a9fb95) — 10/27/2019 @ 4:54 pm58, that sounds a lot more fun than that loren ipso crap
urbanleftbehind (76b087) — 10/27/2019 @ 5:05 pmThis is from your third link:
I think you are mistaking “middle of the night action” for “covert action.
BuDuh (a9fb95) — 10/27/2019 @ 5:11 pmTo help me understand, would the law that he didn’t follow also be a factor if he had decided to stay in Syria and fight Turkish forces?
No, because it would be the (highly unlikely) result of Turkey attacking our forces.
Kishnevi (e266d6) — 10/27/2019 @ 5:21 pmThat is a reasonable take, Kishnevi.
But since it turns out that there is no law that Trump failed to follow, my question about Turkish forces was premature.
I should have read all of DRJ’s links before I asked that question.
BuDuh (a9fb95) — 10/27/2019 @ 5:27 pmBuDuh, remember that a signing statement is essentially a declaration by the President that he intends to ignore the pertinent law, and the circumstances under which he will ignore the law.
That is not a criticism of Trump. The modern use of them began with Reagan, and every President since has done them.
Kishnevi (e266d6) — 10/27/2019 @ 5:33 pmC’mon, Fox –you’ve showed us Bret Baier… you’ve show us Chris Wallace— now show us The Trump ‘t’ween innings!
DCSCA (797bc0) — 10/27/2019 @ 5:38 pmThat is how I read it as well. The problem is that there does not exist a pertinent law for him to have ignored.
BuDuh (a9fb95) — 10/27/2019 @ 5:46 pmEven Hotair is suggesting that Trump broke federal law by failing to notify Congress.
Paul Montagu (45623b) — 10/27/2019 @ 5:46 pmThe DDID used a crap title above on the al-Baghdadi strike, but the Daily Beast nailed theirs: The Kurds Spotted Baghdadi. The U.S. Abandoned Them Anyway.
Ugh. Gaetz is boxed w/Trump. Two bad haircuts on one TeeVee screen can put you off your pizza– unless you’re breakin’ the rules.
Way to go, Fox.
DCSCA (797bc0) — 10/27/2019 @ 5:53 pmDRJ
The Kurds announced they’d been helping.
steveg (354706) — 10/27/2019 @ 5:56 pmI am of the mind that “the Kurds” are starting to disavow their more radical cousins and want to make sure the US keeps sending dollars to pay their fighters, and avoiding a fight with Turkey over the cousins they don’t like all that much anyway
Fun fact per Wikipedia
Kishnevi (e266d6) — 10/27/2019 @ 5:57 pmThe new leader of ISIS is one Abdullah Qardash aka Abdullah Afari. He apparently was a Baathist officer under Saddam, got to know Baghdadi while both were US prisoners at Camp Bucca, was nominated to succeed alBaghdadi this past August. Unlike Baghdadi, Qardash Afari is not a made up name (Afar is his birthplace.) Baghdadi’s real name was Ibrahim Awad Ibrahim al-Badri al-Samariai.
“Even HotAir…?” When did they become Trump loyalists?
Either way, they are also making the mistake of not reading the incuded definition of “covert action.” They should read their own links before writing their stories, IMO.
BuDuh (a9fb95) — 10/27/2019 @ 5:58 pm@42. No problem-o w/him takin’ three wee, future terrorists with him, Sammy.
DCSCA (797bc0) — 10/27/2019 @ 6:05 pmMr. President Donald Trump the President who is the President of the United States courageously ordered our soldiers, from 7,000 miles away, to kill a goat herder with a Koran and an AK-47 who was the biggest enemy America has ever faced next to the media and the human scum Never Trump Republicans and he should be awarded the medal Hero of The United States and the rank of Knight Commander Grand Cross of the Order of the Garter Belt, as well as the several Nobel prizes he should have already received if the process was fair.
nk (dbc370) — 10/27/2019 @ 6:06 pmCovert action is one the US government does not publicly acknowledge. I think that would exclude actions which are publicly announced in person by the President himself.
Kishnevi (e266d6) — 10/27/2019 @ 6:06 pmnk, what about the Order of the Golden Fleece?
Kishnevi (e266d6) — 10/27/2019 @ 6:08 pmThat is the way I read it as well.
BuDuh (a9fb95) — 10/27/2019 @ 6:11 pmAbsolutely, Kishnevi. All four of them — the Spanish, the Austrian, the Georgian, and the American.
nk (dbc370) — 10/27/2019 @ 6:13 pm@77. Box seats at the World Series, a Quarter Pounder w/cheese and Sleepy Joe wheezing old news on 60 Minutes will do.
DCSCA (797bc0) — 10/27/2019 @ 6:13 pm.43 Going to need links to all of those allegations. I saw nothing unusual in the recounting of the operation. No details that were unusual, or could be considered classified.
iowan2 (9c8856) — 10/27/2019 @ 6:37 pmAs to rest? Talking points with no evidence.
Putin knew of our strike against al-Baghdadi before Pelosi or Schumer because, apparently, Americans who disagree with Trump are his real enemies and hostile-to-our-interests dictators like Putin are not. But it’s also true that we had to tell Putin what we were doing because his jets control the skies in that part of Syria.
Paul Montagu (45623b) — 10/27/2019 @ 6:43 pmMcChesney at Lawfare explains that not notifying Congressional leadership of the strike is not illegal because it wasn’t a covert action, but it is problematic that Trump notified Republican leaders but not their Democrat counterparts.
“They” have been doing this, or trying to do this, for years. Their radical cousins haven’t quite faded away yet. America’s SF gurus need a serious sit-down about what some of these characters believe and what they have been up to over the last few decades.
Odds are that Turkish, Iraqi, Idlibi, and Kurdish (Turkish, Iraqi, and Syrian) sources contributed to this apparently successful raid.
It is looking like Baghdadi and his cronies were dime-dropped by SDF and SNA [sic] militia and smugglers who have let smaller ISIS fish slip through their (and regime-held) lines before.
JP (7a537c) — 10/27/2019 @ 6:58 pm71. How many times do you have to get burned by the media lying to you, before you understand they don’t report, they set narrative.
The law is covert ops. Not things done by the military under command of the CiC.
iowan2 (9c8856) — 10/27/2019 @ 7:03 pmThank you for explaining signing statements, kishnevi. Many, many Presidents have done it, and they may be right in some cases. But it is clear that they do it because there is a dispute about the legality of an action or law. Thus, it is the beginning of a disvussion, not the conclusion.
As for the covert action issue, I think you both have it backwards. When Trump announced he was sending troops to Saudi Arabia, that was a public announcement that eliminated the need to notify Congress. He told Congress and the public what he intended to do.
But this was the opposite of a public announcement of an intended action. He intentionally did not tell Congress (and made a point of explaining why he did not, because he feared leaks). Trump also pointed out that nothing about this action was said publicly until after the action was over and the troops were home. That is what covert means. Announcing it publicly after-the-fact does not retroactively turn a covert action into a public action, nor does it constitute advance notice.
I sympathize with his concerns. Maybe I would be tempted to do the same. But it doesn’t change thst doing it this way may be illegal because he ignored laws designed to prevent this from happening.
DRJ (15874d) — 10/27/2019 @ 7:16 pm82, but whatabout this.
Told you he should have waited until Houston on Tuesday.
urbanleftbehind (76b087) — 10/27/2019 @ 7:27 pm@59. That’s sort of meaningless- he could just as easily have quilled the obit for the files and pulled it up for press. The header juggling itself is a tell. The fault lies wholly w/t editor. John Noble Wilford was the NYT science and space reporter for decades and though he quilled the obit for Neil Armstrong, it still had to pass through the editor[s] to make press.
DCSCA (797bc0) — 10/27/2019 @ 7:36 pm@88. ROFLMAO Gee, didn’t hear that on Fox! Wonder why?! It’ll be like the crowd size thing- hundreds of thousands cheered him at the ball park, you know! Didn’t you see them all? Overflow crowds in the parking lot, too! 😉
DCSCA (797bc0) — 10/27/2019 @ 7:41 pmIn my opinion, that is not only a very badly-drafted law, it is also a very stupid law. Congress should not have passed it and Trump should not have signed it (but they attached it to money for Raytheon, Northrop, and Lockheed-Martin so of course he had to.)
Can you imagine? Every time Chris Kyle went out to pot some Iraqi sniper, he had to do it flying the flag and to the cadence of a drum and fife? Otherwise it’s “covert”?
nk (dbc370) — 10/27/2019 @ 7:46 pmNot at all familiar with the music, but I always heard this band talked about on this blog…RIP…
urbanleftbehind (76b087) — 10/27/2019 @ 8:01 pmhttp://www.yahoo.com/entertainment/little-feat-guitarist-singer-paul-153424065.html
87. This was a military op. Not a CIA covert op. Military actions are not made public before they happen. 100’s of military ops take place every day. We have 2 different things.
The President is CiC. Congress cannot overule, or control military planning, targets, motives, personel, etc. Separation of powers. Embrace the Constitution, it protects us against our own govt. For. a. reason.
iowan2 (9c8856) — 10/27/2019 @ 8:02 pmNow there’s a backazzwards way to play: Washington takes two in Houston; looks like Houston will take three in Washington. Kinda the shaft to fans trekking to the home team stadiums with those high $ tickets. Would really be strange if DC takes the last two in Texas.
DCSCA (797bc0) — 10/27/2019 @ 8:20 pm#83 — just because it’s unflattering to Trump doesn’t mean it was made up.
Trump’s Syria withdrawal complicated plans for the raid:
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/10/27/us/politics/baghdadi-isis-leader-trump.html?smid=nytcore-ios-share
How Trump gabbed too much:
https://www.politico.com/news/2019/10/27/trump-isis-raid-baghdadi-059333
15+ sensitive operational details:
Radegunda (68077f) — 10/27/2019 @ 8:28 pmhttps://twitter.com/MicahZenko/status/1188570965350985729
Scherzer’s getting scratched denied him a Bruce Hurst-like stopper moment (up until his game 5 1986 WS Fenway win, that series also had all road team wins, BOS 2-0 in NY and the Mets taking 3 and 4 in Boston).
urbanleftbehind (76b087) — 10/27/2019 @ 8:31 pmMr. Trump the Donald who is President never “gabs too much”. Other people simply cannot grasp his genius.
nk (dbc370) — 10/27/2019 @ 8:31 pmNothing unusual at all in Trump’s rambling announcement? (I mean: unusual for a normal person, not a sociopathic narcissist.)
Radegunda (68077f) — 10/27/2019 @ 8:37 pm@95 The comments on that twitter feed are wonderful. How certifiable do you have to be to think the military and ic actively lying to POTUS is a good idea, or even legal.
Frosty, Fp (f27e97) — 10/27/2019 @ 8:56 pmNoted, you didn’t read my comment at #84, iowan.
Paul Montagu (cbbfc4) — 10/27/2019 @ 9:03 pm@96. Tonight’s game was a bit of a snoozer- shorter than the others, too– Nats just stalled out but overall the series so far and the playoffs have put on some exceptionally good baseball play action this year- particularly if they’re teams you don’t really care about. Just good ball.
DCSCA (797bc0) — 10/27/2019 @ 9:04 pmMcGurk is right:
And about these Kurds that Trump keeps lying about.
Paul Montagu (cbbfc4) — 10/27/2019 @ 9:34 pm99 — No comment on the NYT article explaining how Trump made the operation more difficult?
No comment on the Politico article citing military people’s dismay at the details that Trump revealed?
How certifiable do you have to be to believe that Donald Trump is prudent and careful in his public comments, or that he has a very clear idea of what’s going on?
Radegunda (68077f) — 10/27/2019 @ 10:57 pm99: How certifiable do you have to be to believe that Donald Trump is not certifiable?
Radegunda (68077f) — 10/27/2019 @ 10:59 pmShe should tell that to an ex-PKK member.
If she can find one.
(Lest I forget, we can’t go two seconds without noting Trump’s ramblings, carry on, all)
JP (46fb20) — 10/28/2019 @ 3:08 amLlawyers from the firm Dewey Spankem and Howe would not comment.
mg (8cbc69) — 10/28/2019 @ 3:40 amWhoa wrong thread.
mg (8cbc69) — 10/28/2019 @ 3:42 amDCSCA —
You predicted cheers for Trump at the game. You were wrong. I am just going to point that out because your imp of the perverse keeps inflicting him on us until 2025.
May you continue to be wrong.
Appalled (272269) — 10/28/2019 @ 4:45 am@103 The NYT article was based on anonymous sources. You’re welcome to take that seriously but I generally consider that before I get worked up.
The other one; it’s not that hard to find people who will claim that any discussion of any aspect of the military provides too much information. Add to that the reflexive Trump hate and it’s something to think about but not blow out of proportion.
@104 I must have hit a nerve to trigger a second post to say essentially the same thing. Are you one of the people in the feed posting that military officers should lie to POTUS and take things into their own hands?
frosty (f27e97) — 10/28/2019 @ 5:10 amToday is the second most important Greek national holiday, officially “October 28, 1940”, popularly “Ochi” (No!) day. Mussolini’s ambassador demanded that Greece surrender, Greek Prime Minister Ionannis Metaxas, said “No!”, the Italian ambassador said “This means war!”, and the Greeks then proceeded to wipe out the Italian army leaving more spaghetti and Chianti for the rest of us.
Not to be confused with the Turkish holiday of “October 6, 2019”, also known as “Yes, dear!” day, when some orange Fifth Avenue fairy back-stabbed the Kurds in exchange for his name on a hotel in Istanbul and a weekend in a Turkish prison to be arranged later.
nk (dbc370) — 10/28/2019 @ 5:21 amDont despair, nk…Donny boy might also have unwittingly signed up to be in a reboot of this Turkish film, whatever its actual title is.
urbanleftbehind (71063f) — 10/28/2019 @ 6:31 amI could believe that “Abel Baker from Baghdad” is just as likely as not to be a “crisis actor” put up by who knows whom (maybe the real ISIS leader or the CIA or Mossad or Russia or Turkey, etc.), and we should look for him in the remake of “The Wind And The Lion”. Too Alex Jonesy?
nk (dbc370) — 10/28/2019 @ 6:59 amThey could have also used a variation of the same trick the brat packer posse used in Young Guns 2 – got a hold of an informant, reporter or state staffer and slapped a gondolier on him.. Just like with OBL, show me a corpse or some parts.
urbanleftbehind (71063f) — 10/28/2019 @ 7:03 am..bandolier
urbanleftbehind (71063f) — 10/28/2019 @ 7:05 am”You predicted cheers for Trump at the game. You were wrong.”
Appalled (272269) — 10/28/2019 @ 4:45 am
If you’ve lost the beltway, you’ve lost middle America.
Munroe (53beca) — 10/28/2019 @ 7:25 amMunroe,
You have a point. If he had done it in Houston, the reaction would have been more instructive if it had been lots of boos, or general silence. Boos in DC? Hm, I think even Reagan would have gotten that. (Certainly, your favorite George W. would have been hooted out of the stadium.)
Nonetheless, DCSCA thinks Trump is popular — or at least more popular than what the Democrats will produce. I think him wrong. The ghost of Barry Goldwater will return, and haunt DCSCA to the end of his days.
Appalled (1a17de) — 10/28/2019 @ 7:32 amFirst term “budget cuts” Joker-era Reagan for sure – a lot of peoples arses and budgets were on the line, he would have been given grudging cheers in the 2nd term. W would get cheers until a hypothetical 2005 World Series forward.
urbanleftbehind (5eecdb) — 10/28/2019 @ 7:36 amWe can hope.
DRJ (15874d) — 10/28/2019 @ 7:53 amAt least its more subtle than Glenn Wreck dancing for Mark Levin’s dollar bills (could JS also be angling for the Shep Smith time slot):
http://www.foxnews.com/media/msnbc-joe-scarborough-donald-trump-lock-him-up
urbanleftbehind (5eecdb) — 10/28/2019 @ 8:16 amPretty sure they were chanting ‘Austere Religious Leader!!’
harkin (354a38) — 10/28/2019 @ 8:18 am#109 – My nerves are fine. It’s just weird that someone could watch and listen to Trump for very long and think that it’s the people who don’t trust him who are “certifiable.”
I have not anywhere suggested that military officers should lie to POTUS. I was providing links to demonstrate that people who paid attention know that Trump revealed sensitive information that should have been kept secret. Politico names some of them.
The NYT times article says what’s been said by others too, including Brett McGurk, to whom Paul links. (Or is he not credible because he doesn’t currently hold a government job?)
Pointing out these things isn’t “reflexive Trump hate.” I was neutral on Trump until I started paying attention. And I learned by listening and watching that he’s a malignant narcissist with a tenuous grasp on reality, who would not have been entrusted with any other position of very much authority.
It’s reflexive Trump-idolatry that gets angry when anyway points to his failings.
Radegunda (68077f) — 10/28/2019 @ 8:30 amTrump has broken obscure law XYZ according to a legal interpretation by people who don’t like him. We get his every week and twice on Sunday. Meanwhile, Hillary sets up a private email server, and her gang destroys evidence, and its “hey, no harm – no foul”. Not to mention Comey leaked classified info, McCabe lied to the FBI IG under oath, and Clapper/Brennen have lied to Congress. But that’s no big whoop.
When are D’s and Never-trumper’s going to wake up to the fact that no one cares about “the rule of law” – that’s boob bait.
rcocean (1a839e) — 10/28/2019 @ 8:33 amThe Military attack on two terrorists was NOT a “covert action”. We went in with Helicopters and Guns in US uniforms. Accordingly, Trump didn’t have to tell Wine-box Nancy or Shifty Schiff anything. Ordinarily, POTUS do it as a courtesy. But then Ordinary, speakers of the House don’t set up “Impeachment inquires” just because they don’t like the POTUS.
rcocean (1a839e) — 10/28/2019 @ 8:36 amLefties sure do love to engage in their Daily Trump hate. Most normal people would be bored of doing that after 3 years of Trump – but Lefties are a unique breed.
rcocean (1a839e) — 10/28/2019 @ 8:38 amIs it like Trump Love? For some, that never gets old no matter what he does.
DRJ (15874d) — 10/28/2019 @ 9:03 amRC,
You have this list of grievances and they’re supposedly shared by the current administration but they’re not doing anything about it. In the case of Comey they have explicitly chosen not to indict. Do you have any explanation for that? To me it seems that either
1. You’re wrong about what you allege being criminal.
2. The current administration isn’t competent enough to do anything about it.
3. They’re afraid of bad PR. (but given their behavior in other areas this seems unlikely.)
I’m genuinely curious about how you view the discrepancy.
Time123 (b87ded) — 10/28/2019 @ 9:24 am@121 I could have missed it, I can’t bring the article up on my computer and search w/o logging in, but I don’t see any quotes from Brett McGurk in that article. What I did see were references to unnamed sources. Basically, the NYT article is opinion put forward as news.
That isn’t what I said at all. I think you’re reading what you want into those articles, which my original comment wasn’t directed towards. I’m sure you read what you wanted into my comment since you are responding to something I didn’t say.
frosty (491023) — 10/28/2019 @ 9:31 amradegunda @43:
109 frosty (f27e97) — 10/28/2019 @ 5:10 am
I think what we have to do is such cases is consider the logic of it.
All that it means is that someone reasonably well informed made an argument to a New York Times reporter – and might not even have been honest about it. It’s important also to look at how wodespread the argument is. Does anyone else say anything like it? Do what other peole say contain room for this idea, or not Even one person can indicate, by the way he tells it, if this is a widely held perception
But let’s see:
At first, it looks like the argument is totally unclear, especially how this made a night attack better, It would take place anyway at night, because U.S. special forces have good night vision equipment and their opposition does not. But, reading the New York Times story more closely, the word “risky” there probably should not be read to modify “night” but only “raid.” Even though the New York Times story says “a”
I am not sure, though, how more time would have made it less risky. Probably the leaker(s) meant they went ahead with not quite as much practice as they would have wanted. In reality, it turned out, they didn’t need more practice, at least to make it less risky. These special forces train so much in general they were quite well trained.
Why is speeding this up, bad? You mean they wanted to spend more time planning, while Baghdadi maybe slipped away, and the plan was actually good enough? It’s only bad if it results in something going wrong.
Conclusion: The person or persons who talked to the New York Times wanted to do more training. But they turned out to be wrong about that being necessary.
The other part of the argument is that the anticipated withdrawal from Syria, or Trump’s Syrian decisions, disrupted arrangements. Now why? It doesn’t say.
We are forced to guess that U.S. intelligence was getting information on Baghdadi’s wherabouts from the Kurds in the east, but that this arrangement was put into danger by Trump not defending the Kurds. Now why would that the risk to the Kurds, or just the conflict, would cause the United States to lose te intelligence on Baghdadi? This means that it perhaps was coming through Turkey (not necessarily its government but through the Turkish border) to Kurds and then on to the USA.
Of course, fighting Turkey, or even the Kurds alone fighting Turkey, would have created other problems, not to mention disrupting communication across the border.
The leaker(s) apparently presumes that the status quo could have been maintained by Trump simply standing pat when Erdogan called.
Now who, by the way, is giving away more secrets? Trump or this leaker? Because if this is true, he enables people to deduce somehting about the hole in Baghdadi’s security. Of course now that it’s over it matters less to what’s left of Baghdadi’s organization how his location was found out. And Trump already publicly thanked the Kurds.
Another thing about risk: Trump mentioned the biggest risk the highest ranking military commaanders were worried about was this risk of being fired on on the way there or back, apparently with fire that could shoot down Chinook CH-47 helicopters, but he also said he thought the U.S. forces were good enough – they had high altitude air cover – to probably manage even with that – perhaps because they’d first have to activate radar or something on the ground)
Sammy Finkelman (ee68f6) — 10/28/2019 @ 9:38 amDan Pfeiffer
@danpfeiffer
Being more upset at the people yelling about the President’s crimes than the President that committed those crimes is an odd take.
__ _
Stephen Miller
harkin (354a38) — 10/28/2019 @ 9:53 am@redsteeze
You guys had a rodeo clown fired for making fun of Obama.
_
frosty @127.
The sources were people at lower ranks wo wanted more training and were pverruled, except that they did get some more, possibly because the Joint Chiefs felt that, till the go ahead decision came, they shold keep it up. Also maybe they had agreed that once they found the site they’d practice based on it. But this wasn’t a new site – they’d known about it for a month or more as a possible site where Baghdadi could go to.
The risk that the intelligence connection, which went through Turkey to the Kurdish forces, or somebody connected with them, could be disrupted possibly resulted in a decision to do the raid as soon as possible and cut short the amount of rehearsal.
Of course they could have lost the intelligence on Baghdadi’s whereabouts even without a problem with communication by the Kurds with someone in the west of Syria. There is more than one way the connection could be severed. A guy could lose his head.
You know, I’m thinking that they established something like a minimum 3-day period when they’d know Baghdadi was somewhrere. That maybe caused 2 raids to be cabcelled because Baghdadi left. So I think the Joint Chefs would want to make the immediate preparation as short as possible, but possibly this was not to the taste of the leaker(s) who would have preferred taking their chances Baghdadi would be waiting for them longer. And he or they attributed the shorter time frame to fear of intelligence on Baghdadi being cut off, which in turn they attributed to Trump;s threatened withdrawal from Syria which might cut off communication with the Kurdish general whom Erdogan wants the U.S. to turn over to him.
Sammy Finkelman (ee68f6) — 10/28/2019 @ 9:53 amI’m thinking that they established something like a minimum 2-day period once they found the site, but the leaker wanted it to be longer.
Sammy Finkelman (ee68f6) — 10/28/2019 @ 9:55 amI think also that the people planning the raid felt they could only try once – Baghdadi would know there was a hole in his security, and he’d change a lot, if there was a raid on any ISIS siter in Idlib.
ISIS wasn’t even known to be there at all.
Baghdadi was more generally presumed, said Chris Wallace, to be in Iraq. And there were even two or three raids there (aimed at getting him, or aimed at getting him to believe thae United States thought he was there?)
Sammy Finkelman (f46c1b) — 10/28/2019 @ 10:02 amTrump also said that as recently as two weeks ago, Baghdadi had issued some order. (
Sammy Finkelman (f46c1b) — 10/28/2019 @ 10:03 amAnd that’s really the question: Why do adoring Trump loyalists not care about the rule of law, and why do they not care that Trump is violating his oath of office by breaking multiple laws?
Paul Montagu (00daa1) — 10/28/2019 @ 10:23 am“You guys had a rodeo clown fired for making fun of Obama.”
Who are “you guys”?
Davethulhu (fab944) — 10/28/2019 @ 10:37 am“And that’s really the question: Why do adoring Trump loyalists not care about the rule of law, and why do they not care that Trump is violating his oath of office by breaking multiple laws?”
Can’t speak for adoring Trump loyalists (didn’t vote for him) but as a conservative bystander I can only say that every Trump voter I know cares deeply for rule of law but they are sick of seeing it applied based on which way one leans politically.
Seeing the ‘stolen election/collusion/obstruction’ parade of false accusations only reinforces their belief that the Deep State/Media are doing everything they can to nullify an election.
IOW they are doing what they did in Nov 2016, choosing which side they think doesn’t hate them.
harkin (354a38) — 10/28/2019 @ 10:38 am_
“1. You’re wrong about what you allege being criminal.
2. The current administration isn’t competent enough to do anything about it.
3. They’re afraid of bad PR. (but given their behavior in other areas this seems unlikely.) ”
The answer is obviously “The Deep State”.
Davethulhu (fab944) — 10/28/2019 @ 10:41 am@137
Time123 (af99e9) — 10/28/2019 @ 10:56 am“Deep State” is functionally the same as #2, just with different branding.
From the files of damned if you do, damned if you don’t:
urbanleftbehind (5eecdb) — 10/28/2019 @ 10:56 amhttp://www.yahoo.com/news/us-extends-tps-el-salvador-155936797.html
Harkin,
Time123 (af99e9) — 10/28/2019 @ 10:57 amNot trying to troll or pick on you, this the quoted portion above seems like agree with what RC wrote up thread and I’m generally curious about your take on my comment in 126.
@108. Positive spin, Appalled: Bronx Cheer for Queens man. Funny how Fox didn’t carry it. Hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of thousands in the ball park cheered him– tens of thousands in the parking lot over flow, too– and tens of millions watching at home. Ask him– he’ll tell you so!!
@116. ROFLMAOPIP you had your chance, Appalled: Hillary Clinton was a “Goldwater Girl.” My dear, sweet, mother was as well- and we never let her forget the error of her ways.
DCSCA (797bc0) — 10/28/2019 @ 11:15 am@115. ROFLMAOPIP – the suckers who paid up to $900 for standing room only stadium tickets instead of buying a 75 inch Chinese made HDTV to watch the game sitting down in comfort at home– yes, that’s “Middle America,” – beltway-style!
DCSCA (797bc0) — 10/28/2019 @ 11:20 amYes, but the 75 inch TV might be static and wavy lines a 1/2 hour away from a FOX affliate’s antennae – not as many people have dishes and cable as they did 10 – 20 years age. Those who could enjoy the game on that large TV without taping an antennae to a ceiling or blinds rack arent exactly middle America either.
urbanleftbehind (5eecdb) — 10/28/2019 @ 11:26 am@143. OTOH, speaking of baseball and static: ‘say it ain’t so, Joe’ — did anybody even bother to watch him on 60 Minutes?!
DCSCA (797bc0) — 10/28/2019 @ 11:33 am@120. Or maybe it was just one long ‘loooooooooooooooooooooze’ to Houston from the DC crowd. 😉
DCSCA (797bc0) — 10/28/2019 @ 11:44 amNew York Times Opinion
@nytopinion
The deep state is alive and well, composed of patriotic public servants. Their aim is not to bring down President Trump out of personal or political animus but to rescue the Republic from his excesses, says
@mcottle
__ _
Chuck Ross
@ChuckRossDC
Broke: There’s no such thing as a “deep state.” Only crazy conservatives believe that.
Woke: There is a “deep state,” but only crazy conservatives believe it’s a bad thing.
harkin (354a38) — 10/28/2019 @ 11:46 am_
@128, @130 I’m not disagreeing with your assessment.
There is a discussion of what happened with the raid and a different discussion about the article itself. What we know from the article is that some unnamed source(s) think(s) certain things and the NYT is relaying the opinion(s) of this/(these) source(s) in a way that implies they are both factual and true. It’s really an issue of how much faith you want to put into the unnamed source(s).
If the article is trying, or being used, to establish that Trump actually made it more dangerous or complicated it simply doesn’t. It’s an opinion piece. There’s nothing unreasonable with agreeing with the POV voiced in the article and it’s not unreasonable to be skeptical of it. Reasonable people can disagree over whether more time would have made it safer, etc.
frosty (491023) — 10/28/2019 @ 12:19 pm“In the case of Comey they have explicitly chosen not to indict. Do you have any explanation for that?“
Time123 (b87ded) — 10/28/2019 @ 9:24 am
Prosecutors are loathe to prosecute their own, and this cuts across the partisan divide. See Stevens’ prosecutors for reference.
If Trump were the authoritarian #NeverTrump makes him out to be, he would’ve demanded Comey’s indictment and gotten it. Or, do you think there was really nothing that anybody could’ve made a case for, if Comey’s name were Saucier instead?
Munroe (f5f3f1) — 10/28/2019 @ 12:21 pmWashington post: obit. adolph hitler european unionist and charismatic leader dies at 54.
asset (0d13e3) — 10/28/2019 @ 12:35 pmI think the evidence doesn’t support the claims that have been made in the media re: Hillary and Comey. I think that if evidence was there to support a conviction they would have indicted. I don’t think AG Bar chose not to indict Comey based on any professional courtesy.
I think that Trump isn’t sufficiently motivated or competent to drive these prosecutions for purely political reasons. I think he’d have been happy to get headlines that they were going to trial. I think that Trumps DOJ wasn’t willing to proceed unless there was a strong likelihood they would win.
I’m open to changing my POV based on new evidence.
Time123 (52fb0e) — 10/28/2019 @ 12:37 pmBrett Kavanaugh didnt flip his tickets, good on him.
http://ftw.usatoday.com/2019/10/nationals-fan-beers-home-run-chest
urbanleftbehind (71063f) — 10/28/2019 @ 12:54 pm“I think that Trumps DOJ wasn’t willing to proceed unless there was a strong likelihood they would win.”
Time123 (52fb0e) — 10/28/2019 @ 12:37 pm
A major factor is the jurisdiction in which these cases need to be tried, which is comprised of juries that would boo Trump at a WS game and chant for him to be locked up. You might try to assert that would happen anywhere but, sorry, no.
To think this is simply based on the strength of the legal infraction is ludicrous. It’s tailor made for the administrative state to protect their own.
Munroe (f5f3f1) — 10/28/2019 @ 1:01 pm@152 I’m willing to believe that the potential jury pool is a consideration. But I don’t think that a slam dunk case in Cincinnati is a sure loser in DC based on Jury pool alone.
These are high profile cases the President has called for publicly on many occasions. Do you really think the Barr and his immediate subordinates are part of the deep state? Do you really think that Barr and his staff had no input into these decisions?
Time123 (af99e9) — 10/28/2019 @ 1:10 pmA major factor is the jurisdiction in which these cases need to be tried, which is comprised of juries that would boo Trump at a WS game and chant for him to be locked up. You might try to assert that would happen anywhere but, sorry, no.
I find that a reasonable idea. Indeed, I think it may have been a major factor in the decision not to prosecute Hillary. The best a prosecutor could hope for would be a hung jury in any jurisdiction that would be a reasonable venue for the trial. And the complications of pretrial publicity….
kishnevi (0c10d1) — 10/28/2019 @ 1:10 pm”Do you really think the Barr and his immediate subordinates are part of the deep state? Do you really think that Barr and his staff had no input into these decisions?”
Time123 (af99e9) — 10/28/2019 @ 1:10 pm
No, and No.
I believe Barr is cognizant of the difficulties involved with getting a conviction in these venues, and yes it would need to be a slam dunk case.
Munroe (53beca) — 10/28/2019 @ 1:25 pm155.
If they prosecuted anyone for lying to a FISA court, it would be in connection with someone who is not notably connected with the Trump campaign, and they would try to avoid mentioning anything about the 2016 election. They might also find totally different examples.
Sammy Finkelman (102c75) — 10/28/2019 @ 1:35 pmI agree it would need to be a very strong case. I think the fact that they chose not to proceed probably means they didn’t have very strong evidence.
Are we actually having a reasonable conversation and agreeing?
Time123 (af99e9) — 10/28/2019 @ 1:41 pmIt is interesting to study what the early reports were (between about 9:30 pm Eastern time Saturday night and Trump’s announcement about 9:20 am Sunday morning)
According to Arutz Sheva, citing Channel 13 in Israel, Alhurra, an Arabic-language satellite TV channel based in the United States that broadcasts news and current affairs programming to audiences in the Middle East and North Africa operated by the Middle East Broadcasting Networks, Inc that is financed by the U.S. government through a grant from the U.S. Agency for Global Media (USAGM) had aPentagon source that it:
1) al-Baghdadi had indeed been killed.
2) The operation in northern Syria was carried out by US Navy Seal commandos
3) Who parachuted into the area
4) With the help of the CIA
5) Which participated with “local security apparatus
Points 2,3 4 and 5 are wrong.
Navy Seals weren’t used unlike the case with the operation against Osama bin Laden in 2011 (probably because of a whole problem with the Seals. Instead Delta Force and Army Rangers were used. Trump mentioned Navy involvement but he didn’t say how.
They didn’t parachute – and if they had, how would they have gotten out??
Neither the CIA nor anything local in Idlib took part in the raid (per Trump)
Sammy Finkelman (102c75) — 10/28/2019 @ 2:06 pm”Are we actually having a reasonable conversation and agreeing?”
Time123 (af99e9) — 10/28/2019 @ 1:41 pm
Not really agreeing.
For example, I think the case against McCabe is very strong, and I think he will be indicted — but not convicted. I’m guessing you think he will be convicted based on the strength of the case, or that the case is not very strong.
Munroe (53beca) — 10/28/2019 @ 2:29 pmWikipedia has a title for the raid that nobody else would know: Barisha raid.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barisha_raid
Anyone ever encounter the name Barisha in this connection? I think the U.S. government tried to aoid mentioning the location. Trump at least kept that “secret.”
Barisha is the name of the village where this took place.
BTW Wikipedia is still using ISIL, like Obama did. (Secretary of State John Kerry preferred Daesh, as was most commonly used in the Middle East including by Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu. Trump dropped this use of ISIL, even though “the Levant” is maybe a better translation of ISIS;s term for Syria. But ISIS stopped calling itself ISIS almost right away and called itself Islamic State.)
Yhe Wikipedia article on the Barisha raid starts with:
Now why would that be? It could be that an Islamic State courier/double agent whom the commander of the SDF, Mazloum Abdi was running, traveled through Turkey. Gen. Mazloum Abdi was apparently the only non-American to know where Baghdadi was hiding.
The United States probably would not have considered that person suitable for an agent both because of trust issues and because he probably had innocent blood on his hands. Mazloum Abdi however didn’t have such scruples and probably could tell who was really aaginst Baghdadi, i.e. that this person’s hatred of Baghdadi must have been genuine and spontaneous. Maybe Baghdadi got someone close to him killed or tried to get him killed. It sounds like he was a very important agent – maybe even the guy responsible for building the compound.
But since he was recruited by Mazloum, they helped including probably giving him super sophisticated communication equipment, but he’d also have to travel to eastern Syria. He was probably periodically debriefed in Iraq. It may be some years till we get the full story.
Baghdadi was a little like Stalin, except he replaced his close aides quicker (and sometimes was forced to by United States and other bombing.)
Sammy Finkelman (102c75) — 10/28/2019 @ 2:32 pmIt’s insane for people to argue about a piece in the NYT with NOTHING but OPINION from ANONYMOUS sources
That’s stupidity on stilts. Regardless what happens over the next 5 years of the Trump Presidency in the Middle East, it will be better, by orders of magnitude, that the death and destruction Obama delivered upon Iraq. All out of a fit of pique by Obama, trying to bring GW Bush down a couple of notches.
iowan2 (9c8856) — 10/28/2019 @ 2:37 pm@116/@118 LOL dream on…
https:/www.youtube.com/watch?v=GNGfP1X4Uks
‘Oh we’re the bright young men; who want to go back to 1910; we’re Barry’s Boys..’
DCSCA (797bc0) — 10/28/2019 @ 2:46 pmCNN reports Pentagon says ‘informant’ sourced Al-Baghdadi’s DNA from his… underwear.
Surely a Fox reporter will follow up with: ‘boxers or briefs?’
DCSCA (797bc0) — 10/28/2019 @ 2:50 pm@162. Dang. Typo:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GNGfP1X4Uks
DCSCA (797bc0) — 10/28/2019 @ 2:52 pmI have no opinion about the case against McCabe. I don’t trust the general media reporting and haven’t seen anything better. If they don’t indict I’ll conclude they didn’t feel they have sufficient evidence. If they indict but he’s found not guilty I’ll have to see what more is learned.
Time123 (d54166) — 10/28/2019 @ 3:11 pm165
McCabe lied to IG investigators numerous times. He has lost his job AND really nice government pension…
On that front, they probably didn’t want to “waste” a shot of conviction when McCabe has already suffered consequences.
However, if Durnham/Horowitz recommend further charges, McCabe could still be charged.
whembly (c30c83) — 10/28/2019 @ 3:27 pm”On that front, they probably didn’t want to “waste” a shot of conviction when McCabe has already suffered consequences.”
whembly (c30c83) — 10/28/2019 @ 3:27 pm
McCabe is probably going to get his pension back and compensation for an improper firing. Stzrok too. That’s how it works.
Anyone who disagrees is free to place a friendly wager with me.
Munroe (53beca) — 10/28/2019 @ 3:42 pm165. They failed to exonerate McCabe. That means he is guilty. I’ve been paying attention to those reporters on TV, they’re always right
iowan2 (9c8856) — 10/28/2019 @ 3:43 pmRube Ridger Barr will not indict any of these pieces of schiff.
mg (8cbc69) — 10/28/2019 @ 3:50 pm@167, if the firing was improper he should.
Time123 (d54166) — 10/28/2019 @ 4:04 pm@169, it’s really too bad Trump keeps appointing losers. On the plus side it means you never have to admit that the bold conspiracy theory you’re pushing isn’t supported by facts.
This is a transcript of the entire press conference Trump gave yesterday, and not just the opening statement. So it has all he said.
https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefings-statements/remarks-president-trump-death-isis-leader-abu-bakr-al-baghdadi
Sammy Finkelman (fe8737) — 10/28/2019 @ 4:21 pmMcCabe didn’t lose his pension. He only forfeited the special bennie for federal law enforcement to start receiving it upon leaving his job before retirement age, instead of having to wait until retirement age like most other people. I don’t know about Strzok and I don’t care.
nk (dbc370) — 10/28/2019 @ 4:29 pmThis is where he mentions the Navy:
Somebody didn’t fix that transcript because it has Trump saying “last tonight.”
Trump, by the way referred to the injured dog as “a beautiful dog, a talented dog” Talented? Its name and everything about it was classified but now Trump has declassified that. Its name is Conan and it is a Belgian Malinois and here you can see a picture of it (probably taken before the raid)
https://www.newsweek.com/classified-name-dog-wounded-syria-isis-baghdadi-raid-revealed-1468238
The dog is said to be doing OK and back at work. The name of the handler is still secret. NBC Nightly News reported that the dogs always outrank their handlers in order to try to ensure they are treated well. I don’t know, the dog may be a captain, but it probably doesn’t get a captain’s pay. Maybe the rank means that the handler is supposed to obey the dog. altough that can’t exactly be.
The dogs are valued accoding to NBC, for their sense of smell, their abiliy to fit into small spaces, and their ability to terrify people.
Sammy Finkelman (fe8737) — 10/28/2019 @ 4:33 pm#167
Don’t know what this means for McCabe
https://www.usatoday.com/documents/6523676-Stipulation-of-Dismissal/
steveg (354706) — 10/28/2019 @ 4:52 pmLooks like the US also got Abu Hassan al-Muhajir. If I google isis raid I get articles about how Trump gabbed too much and the dog.
frosty (f27e97) — 10/28/2019 @ 6:12 pm‘Lead he world not just because of our power but by the power of our example.’ – Joe Biden
Really?
Example: plagiarist.
Idiot.
DCSCA (797bc0) — 10/28/2019 @ 6:16 pmCNN Uncovers Evidence Hero Dog Sniffed Dozens Of Butts Back In College
https://babylonbee.com/news/cnn-uncovers-evidence-hero-dog-sniffed-butts
harkin (354a38) — 10/28/2019 @ 6:29 pm_
Military intelligence; hiding in plain sight– perhaps the snoop pooch is actually named— “Classified.”
DCSCA (797bc0) — 10/28/2019 @ 6:45 pm#126 as usual you miss the big picture. The Liberal/Left, the media, and the D’s (90% the same crowd) don’t care about people breaking the immigration laws, the drug laws, or any other law they don’t like or care about. They weren’t concerned about Bill’s lies and perjury (MOVEON.ORG) or Obama’s possible ethical lapses. BUT every step from Trump is met with “Oh, he might have violated Campaign finance law 12689 paragraph xyz, sub-paragraph 2, Trump must resign” or “He obstructed justice by telling everybody he didn’t like Mueller” or some sort nonsense.
And its been going on for 3 years. I’m simply telling the legal beagles, NOBODY buys the whole “We must respect the Rule of Law” BS anymore. You’ve run that into the ground, and people are wise to it. Of course the center-right is full of gullible rubes, so you can always find some fool who you can still run the con on, but the vast majority just don’t care about it, anymore.
rcocean (1a839e) — 10/28/2019 @ 6:55 pmMcCable “lacked candor” according to the IG, which is a fireable offense but not necessarily prosecutable. I’m not seeing much else Durham can get him on.
Paul Montagu (00daa1) — 10/28/2019 @ 7:02 pmIt’s fine with me. I don’t care that the law says that the Electoral College made Trump President and therefore President he is. Throw him out, by hook or by crook. The rule of law is for rubes.
nk (dbc370) — 10/28/2019 @ 7:04 pmLiberals don’t speak for me and, as a Republican and traditional conservative, I do respect the rule of law, because what’s the superior alternative? And speaking of that, Trump can’t keep the oil because that would be a war crime.
Or Trump does keep the oil and Pelosi adds it to the articles of impeachment.
Paul Montagu (00daa1) — 10/28/2019 @ 7:12 pmInteresting, steveg. I think it involves the lawsuit by McCabe’s lawyer against the DOJ seeking to compel the release of Mccabe’s termination documents. This is probably related, too. Perhaps they agreed on the release of the documents.
DRJ (15874d) — 10/28/2019 @ 7:26 pmMaybe he tried but, ultimately, he put his own interests ahead of keeping this campaign promise to drain the swamp.
DRJ (15874d) — 10/28/2019 @ 7:29 pmrcocean (1a839e) — 10/28/2019 @ 6:55 pm
So if the Left breaks the law, it’s okay for the right to break it? If we don’t defend the rule of law, who will?
Kishnevi (dfca54) — 10/28/2019 @ 7:32 pm@181 That’s a pretty good summary of NeverTrump and the D’s since 2016.
frosty (f27e97) — 10/28/2019 @ 7:47 pmTrump’s loyalty to the law is the same as his loyalty to everyone else. From his wives, to his staff, to our allies. One way only. All to him, nothing to them. F**k him.
nk (dbc370) — 10/28/2019 @ 8:06 pmTrump said Baghdadi cried and whimpered like a dog. There is always an element of truth in what he says but he sometimes manipulates things to fit his purposes. It sounds like the humans were killed by the explosion. The sounds may have actually been from the dog.
DRJ (15874d) — 10/28/2019 @ 8:30 pm@187 And that’s a pretty good summary of the view not NeverTrump has of NeverTrump. You are on a roll this evening.
frosty (f27e97) — 10/28/2019 @ 9:23 pmRCocean, If the ‘big picture’ is based on things that aren’t accurate than it’s wrong.
Time123 (6e0727) — 10/29/2019 @ 4:22 am188. DRJ (15874d) — 10/28/2019 @ 8:30 pm
That idea was also mentioned by someone on Althouse. But would the dog have whimpered? After being injured maybe, but before?
I’m thinking that maybe Baghdadi didn’t know the tunnel had a dead end. He was probably betrayed – if this was a person charged with constructing the site, he could have created a lot of tunnels that had only entrances and went no place, and perhaps led Baghdadi through the only one that led any where and told him they all were ready to use.
Although the short tunnels might also have been intended for storage or as a bomb shelter, although that couldn;t work against what the United States could drop, and the walls collapsed when the suicide bomb went off so it couldn;t have functioned as much of a shelter..
I read that often, the head of a suicide bomber remains intact.
Sammy Finkelman (fe8737) — 10/29/2019 @ 7:18 am182.
Trump is claiming it is compensation (for liberating them from a dictator. “The United States spent blood – should it have to spend money too?” is Trump’s question)
All he would have to do is recognize a new government and make a deal with them. But that’s not going to happen either actually.
He’s not actually hoping to “keep the oil” He seems to be hoping for a normal concession to extract the oil to be given a U.S. oil company.
But he talks this way because he thinks his supporters are not too aware of the legalities and he thinks it is hard to defend that not being legal to do,
Sammy Finkelman (fe8737) — 10/29/2019 @ 8:16 amDogs whimper or vocalize for all kinds of different reasons: excitement is one.
steveg (354706) — 10/29/2019 @ 8:18 amI have a dog that kinda yodels when he gets close to the off leash beach
i don’t know if i should tell you this because it is super-classified but there was no dog it was mr. president donald trump in one of his genius incognito disguises which he wears when he courageously leads all military operations from the front line
nk (dbc370) — 10/29/2019 @ 8:23 amDRJ thank you for the help.
I found that link on a “gossip” website where the knuckleheads were claiming that it showed some sort of IMPENDING DOOM for McCabe.
Honestly I started laughing. I read and reread and reread again (15 seconds cumulative) and wondered if those guys would boil water and sell it as soup.
steveg (354706) — 10/29/2019 @ 8:24 amhttp://nymag.com/intelligencer/2019/10/trump-officials-question-that-baghdadi-was-crying-report.html
Sammy Finkelman (fe8737) — 10/29/2019 @ 9:57 amFrom the Wall Street Journal op-ed pages today:
Sammy Finkelman (db7fea) — 10/29/2019 @ 12:19 pm