Patterico's Pontifications

10/17/2019

Don’t Be a Fool: The Fool’s Letter to Erdogan

Filed under: General — Patterico @ 7:42 am



I can’t let this letter from Trump to Erdogan go by without comment:

It comes as no surprise that Erdogan literally threw this nonsense in the trash. The letter is dated eight days ago and it obviously had zero effect other than to further reveal our President to be a clueless jackass — which, if that wasn’t already evident to an observer, the observer is brain dead.

The issue here is not even so much what Trump did. It’s the impulsive way he did it. There was no plan. This is one of the main reasons that it grates to see Russians crawling through a hastily abandoned American military base: it reminds us that Trump did this all on a hasty whim, having thought through nothing, and having informed nobody capable of thinking it through for him.

Then Trump trots out and repeats absurd Turkish talking points, like the one that the PKK is probably worse than ISIS. Here are his idiotic statements as put out by TRT (the Turkish Radio and Television Corporation)

Trump is a fool. Erdogan knows it. Putin knows it. The world knows it. As long as he is the one conducting foreign policy, the United States is going to get played. He has to go.

P.S. I can’t help but come back to the point that Trump doesn’t read. The correct way to handle the phone call with Erdogan was in his briefing papers, but he certainly didn’t read them because he reads nothing. Some have observed that, while Trump is probably not a paid Russian asset, he behaves exactly the same as if he were. Well, it is also true that he is not literally illiterate — but behaves exactly the same as if he were.

As the saying goes: The man who doesn’t read has no advantage over the man who can’t read.

[Cross-posted at The Jury Talks Back.]

153 Responses to “Don’t Be a Fool: The Fool’s Letter to Erdogan”

  1. Mr. T would make a way better President than that guy at the desk right now.

    JVW (54fd0b)

  2. So tone-deaf. I can believe that supporting the Kurds might not be the best of ideas and still believe that Trump is a moron, right? Jeebus…

    We haven’t fought a war to win since 1945. I just can’t even…

    Gryph (08c844)

  3. Resist, we much.

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  4. He is a foolish, effectively illiterate, headstrong child who has no impulse control and won’t listen to anyone. But, unlike a child, he has vast power and an overwhelming sense that only he knows how to use it. I can’t think of a worse combination.

    DRJ (15874d)

  5. The Kurds can thank Trump for suddenly having a bunch of people passionately care about their plight who didn’t know who they were a month ago.

    A Trump impeachment would end all that.

    Munroe (53beca)

  6. Since the Turks no longer take the heads of their enemies, Erdogan should have put the letter in a durable frame to hang from his horse’s saddle.

    nk (dbc370)

  7. “The Kurds can thank Trump for suddenly having a bunch of people passionately care about their plight who didn’t know who they were a month ago.”

    – Munroe

    Only Munroe knows about the Kurds, see. Only Munroe is smart or informed.

    Leviticus (efada1)

  8. As long as he is the one conducting foreign policy, the United States is going to get played.

    It’s one thing to not have the required patience and interest to read his briefing papers, but that he is also unwilling to listen to his advisers and believes that he, above all else knows best is extremely troubling. Imagine the level of pomposity and hubris it takes to describe Jim Mattis as an “the world’s most overrated general”.

    Fine, don’t read your briefing papers, but at the very least, be willing to listen, question, debate and consider the advice of those with more experience, knowledge and insight into any situation facing the American people. I read somewhere recently that according to an official involved with Trump’s administration (it may have been a military adviser), that Obama and Bush regularly sought advice from their advisers, asked endless questions, challenged them with various scenarios, etc. in an effort to get the best information possible in order to make the most informed decisions on issues. According to the individual, Trump does not do this.

    Dana (05f22b)

  9. Munroe,

    When I search the website, the Kurds have been part of over 30 posts here including Dana’s 2014 post, where Obama had to reluctantly rescue the Kurds despite his campaign promise against endless Middle Eastern wars. (Sound familiar?) The comments then were similar to now — upset with a weak President. This is my favorite:

    If Obunble had bothered to negotiate a SOFA, it might not be so horrible.

    We are the world’s worst @#!$ing allies.

    Steve57 (ba12a7) — 8/7/2014 @ 6:49 pm

    DRJ (15874d)

  10. Like I said in the other thread, my attitude towards what Trump’s supporters say is now the same as Erdogan’s towards Trump’s letter.

    nk (dbc370)

  11. Patterico: “Trump is a fool. Erdogan knows it. Putin knows it. The world knows it.” “He has to go.”

    He betrays an important ally, despite universal opposition, during a single late night phone call. What’s his next move?

    We all grew up assuming that America could never fall in our lifetime. Maybe we’re the fools.

    noel (f22371)

  12. Munroe, you’re making this much more complicated than it has to be.

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  13. Trump this morning:

    I am the only person who can fight for the safety of our troops & bring them home from the ridiculous & costly Endless Wars, and be scorned. Democrats always liked that position, until I took it. Democrats always liked Walls, until I built them. Do you see what’s happening here?

    Except that you aren’t bringing the troops home from northern Syria, you are relocating them elsewhere in the region, and you are sending 1,800 troops to Saudi Arabia. And it isn’t just Democrats that are condemning your actions concerning Syria and Turkey.

    Trump in real life is not the same Trump that he envisions he is…

    Dana (05f22b)

  14. yes, last year Erdogan was your designated source, of course you ignored his sponsorship of the hamas flotilla, his militias in north Africa as well as Syria, his protection of an al queda financier, because khashoggi, peace be a upon him, which only stands to reason, since he wanted sharia law too, just by parliamentary means, like hamas, or al watan, bel hadj’s vehicle,

    narciso (d1f714)

  15. DRJ, in that post the Kurds are mentioned only in the most oblique way possible.

    Munroe (53beca)

  16. 16. But they are mentioned.

    Gryph (08c844)

  17. 12. We’ve been coasting on the Post-WWII Pax Americana for 74 years now. The goodwill we built up rebuilding Germany, France, England, and Japan was bound to run out sooner or later.

    Gryph (08c844)

  18. Whaddya mean it was a “fool’s letter”. It was a perfect letter, with all the perfect words. It was beautifully written, and just look at that letterhead.

    Paul Montagu (00daa1)

  19. 19. Everybody tells Trump how great his letters are. They just love his letters.

    Gryph (08c844)

  20. Hey CH & Munroe, honest question. Do you think the situation in the ME this week is better than it was last week? If so why? Just looking for a simple Yes or No. But if you have a “Because…” I’d be interested in reading it.

    Time123 (53ef45)

  21. Would like to add Narcisso to the comment above.

    Time123 (53ef45)

  22. what good will they cursed us at least since Vietnam, even though their safety net was enabled by our security umbrella, the pershing missiles were put in against their protests, they and the French armed saddam, and kicked a little in for kaddaffi’s biologicals at rabta, they built the shell of the Iranian nuclear program, took bribes from saddam, through the oil for food project, the uk fares a little better,

    narciso (d1f714)

  23. I am the only person who can fight for the safety of our troops & bring them home from the ridiculous & costly Endless Wars, and be scorned. Democrats always liked that position, until I took it. Democrats always liked Walls, until I built them. Do you see what’s happening here?

    See, the problem is that you did it in the stupidest way possible and a ramifications are terrible in so many ways.

    Everyone is upset I took my dog out to go for a walk. So what if I drove my car through the front of the house instead of using the door? Everyone knew the dog needed to go out. What a bunch of ingrates.

    Time123 (53ef45)

  24. our President to be a clueless jackass

    Your TDS is showing! Orange man bad!

    Radegunda (05af0f)

  25. what we could realistically do, you did notice what happened last months, thanks to fracking the impact was reduced to a degree, but do we want to go to war with turkey, then commit the forces, now this holding action was because on the one hand the last administration, didn’t want to upset the applecart in Syria, because of the Iran deal, but they had to make a gesture, funding those militias in the link up front, sand pirates we even gave stingers to, half of them, defected to nusra or Islamic state, the socalled free Syrian army, that McCain’s favorite staffer miss o’bagy gave the seal of approval to, mr, kinzinger, was with another militia, that sold james foley to Islamic state, so there’s been bad judgement all around,

    narciso (d1f714)

  26. @19 I agree. Don’t be a fool is always good advice.

    Frosty, Fp (f27e97)

  27. I’m kind of glad that the story isn’t broadly framed around the disrespect shown Trump and the United States. Being disrespected and looking weak seem to be triggers for President Trump and if his usual approach of tweeting how awesome he is didn’t work I’m not sure I’d like whatever it is he did next.

    Time123 (53ef45)

  28. He is a foolish, effectively illiterate, headstrong child.

    It’s worse than that. He’s a narcissistic psychopath, lacking in conscience, having no sense of true or false aside from self-interest, and becoming increasingly untethered from reality.

    It’s been asked over and over again: Is there any other position of the smallest responsibility that Donald Trump would have been permitted to hold?

    Radegunda (05af0f)

  29. @26, if that was in response to my question I can’t tell if you’re saying “Yes, I think the situation is better.” or “No, I think the situation is worse.”

    Time123 (53ef45)

  30. that’s virtue signaling, how about declare war on Erdogan, that’s a power they do have, but we’ve seen what happened to goldsteyn and the senior chief, who was railroaded by slimey jags, that’s the lesson we teach the up and coming officers, see Benghazi, which the congress absolved because !@#$%^^$& their merc,s they deserve what they get, that’s your new friends markos moulitsas,

    narciso (d1f714)

  31. Oh, why not? 129 Republican Congressmen suddenly passionately care about the plight of the Kurds when they didn’t know who they were a month ago. Is that right, Munroe?

    nk (dbc370)

  32. If we can get that margin in the Senate, we can end our national nightmare overnight. The daffodil will fold the minute McConnell gives him the headcount.

    nk (dbc370)

  33. ’Hey CH & Munroe, honest question. Do you think the situation in the ME this week is better than it was last week? If so why? Just looking for a simple Yes or No. But if you have a “Because…” I’d be interested in reading it.’
    Time123 (53ef45) — 10/17/2019 @ 8:32 am

    No, not better. So, I answered your question, which I think is a question of little consequence.

    If you had asked that question just after the Iraq/WMD war started, what would’ve been your answer?

    Munroe (53beca)

  34. right, they won’t do anything that would be held accountable, for, wahini, flipped her vote in eight days over gitmo, her reaction to the abquaiq strike, was rejoin the iran deal, lindsey was in Ankara in January, Qatar is flooding his state with cash, so that’s why the concern over the departed khashoggi, Qatar that supports hamas boko haram, the Taliban,

    narciso (d1f714)

  35. He should have sent Mr. T instead of Pence.

    urbanleftbehind (5eecdb)

  36. Just more insults. You have no idea if Trump ‘had a plan’. In case, you missed it, Turkey is acting, we are reacting – and trying to influence them. Turkey is a NATO ally, we had 50 men in area that’s thousands of square miles and its not our business who controls Northern Syria. We’ve put sanctions on. So what else? what genius move did Pelosi, Mittens, and Lindsey have in their pocket that Trump missed?

    rcocean (1a839e)

  37. I think it was a right move, but the military based on what they knew about mukharabat contacts with islamists, should have taken better precautions, some might argue the debaathifications went too far, maybe only the top layer, but other officials, certainly were part of the anfal and marsh arab campaigns, the rot in Iraq, had been papered over, so was the strong trend of the rising, now we know there were considerable weapons caches, they had almost two years to hide them, as WikiLeaks cables and the reporting of cj chivers reveals,

    narciso (d1f714)

  38. who directed almost all the aid not to the kurds, but the fsa ahram al sham, (founded by Zawahiri’s deputy) ahram al sharquiyah, (they thought the first group wasn’t radical enough) liwa al islam, that was the one which was based in east ghouta, Saudi trained outfit, well that would be kingpin brennan and his renfield, ben Rhodes,

    narciso (d1f714)

  39. Its laughable that the Uniparty is condemning Trump – without any idea what as what exactly Trump did wrong or what was the correct course. If Crenshaw, mIttens, and the D’s what us to fight Turkey then ask for a declaration of war. We have three ways to influence Turkey:

    1) War
    2) sanctions
    3) talk and letter writing

    Trump is doing 2 and 3. If you think War is an option, say so.

    rcocean (1a839e)

  40. just they ignored taking out prigozhin’s tin soldiers in eastern Syria, (the intel assessment was the biggest promo for his shop) or the javelin missiles shipment, mind you with the news clips from unian, perhaps not the best move, but Obama’s words are so purty, he was the daffodil, perhaps the daffy one with the purple feet and the flag,

    narciso (d1f714)

  41. Munroe, thank you for answering. The day after the Iraq war started I would have told you it was a good idea because we needed to remove their weapons of mass destruction. Today I will tell you that I was wrong. It was a mistake because they didn’t have weapons of mass destruction.

    Time123 (53ef45)

  42. Not Turkish bazaar. Turkish bizarre.

    But I have to love the straw men. “Do you want war?” After the Fifth Avenue finocchio surrendered to Erdogan, when he could have just given Erdogan a strong, loud “No!” and had Erdogan then decide whether Turkey wanted to go to war against the United States.

    nk (dbc370)

  43. If only Hillary was President the Middle east would be at peace. Just like it was under Obama.
    Darn that Trump.

    rcocean (1a839e)

  44. He should have sent Mr. T instead of Pence.

    Pence and Pompeo were still on the plane when the cabrón confirmed the surrender and cut their legs out from under them. Turkish bizarre.

    nk (dbc370)

  45. when he could have just given Erdogan a strong, loud “No!”

    Trump says he and Pompeo (along with the rest of NATO) told Turkey not to invade. I guess he’d raised his voice and shouted louder, it would’ve worked.

    rcocean (1a839e)

  46. they did, it only took an artillery shell or two, with the right crosswind for halabja, nuclear materials were secure, knowing how cogema does things, we don’t know how much yellowcake actually traded hands,

    narciso (d1f714)

  47. Nobody is criticizing the mother-figure for not bringing peace to the Middle East except (by implication) his own supporters. We are criticizing him for being a yellow-bellied double-crosser who betrayed the people who defeated ISIS in Syria for us.

    nk (dbc370)

  48. @41

    Here’s what Trump did wrong.
    -His government agreed this summer to enforce a safe zone between Turkey and Syria.
    -We told our allies, the Kurds that we would do this and as their part they needed to remove their defenses.
    -We encouraged the disarming.

    As part of this plan Turkey and the Kurds made commitments.

    Once this was complete he told Syria he wouldn’t stop them from invading.

    Here’s some simple things he didn’t do.

    He did not tell our military that we were allowing Turkey to invade. This means they didn’t have time to do the normal things we want to do before we retreat / withdraw from an area.

    He did not tell our allies (the Kurds) that we were reneging on the agreement in time for them to prepare.

    He did not review his plan with our regional allies (like NATO) to develop a Sanctions plan to pressure Turkey to meet their commitments after we left.

    RC, you’re right that we have fewer good options today than we did before he made his decision.

    Time123 (7cca75)

  49. “I will call you later.” Why is he so thirsty to spread his cheeks wide for despots?

    JRH (52aed3)

  50. He can give mayor Pete some lessons on how to take it.

    JRH (52aed3)

  51. RC,

    Saying Trump made the situation worse is not the same thing as saying Hillary would have brought peace to the ME.

    You’re right that his empty threats aren’t a deterrent. He shouldn’t have proven US threats to be empty. He also shouldn’t have put the US in a situation where we have far less leverage.

    But he did those things. Now we’re stuck with it.

    Time123 (7cca75)

  52. like when they invaded Ukraine even shot down an airliner, what was done, oh #hashtags and food rations,

    narciso (d1f714)

  53. criticizing him for being a yellow-bellied double-crosser who betrayed the people who defeated ISIS in Syria for us.

    Yeah, that’s the new DNC talking point. trump was a coward (or in Putin’s pocket) and BETRAYED OUR NOBLE ALLIES. Nobody who thinks about Syria in an adult, objective way, agrees with that.

    Did you read Bush’s criticism? This is obviously much more important than Syria. The Globalist Uniparty is upset that Trump might withdraw from Afghanistan and impose some reason to American Foreign policy. GO back and read Bush’s 2004 Inaugural. Its Crazy Wilsonian Crusading for World Democracy on Steroids – with the US spending billions of dollars and thousands of lives to uplift the world.

    rcocean (1a839e)

  54. The letter is dated eight days ago

    October 9th. Yom Kippur, the day the Turkish invasion started.

    This was three days after his disastrous telephone call with Erdogan on October 6 and right after, or the next day, they knew that things were not going well.

    Trump sent the “great and unmatched wisdom” tweet on October 7th (and that night he cut off U.S.
    intelligence about Syria to Turkey) and another one, on October 8th

    https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1181553636444426240

    during wich he referred to his oppostion to

    any unforced or unnecessary fighting by Turkey

    But he couldn’t hold it off without the presence of U.S. troops, or the (implied or explicit) threat of military intervention against Turkey.

    Saying the U.S. was helping the Kurds financially or with weapons, which he claimed, but wasn’t really so, didn’t prevent it.

    The issue here is not even so much what Trump did. It’s the impulsive way he did it.

    in his defense, he didn’t have any time to compose any better letter, if that was going to stop it.

    Of note, is that Trump was worried about Turkey massacring Kurds. Since Erdogan probably didn’t really have any intent to do so, and perhaps also because he took steps to countermand any plans by his Islamic allies to do that, (which was mostly, but only mostly, successful) Erdogan mostly ignored the letter. (except possibly for trying to cancel plans to kill people)

    Sammy Finkelman (3ce3e5)

  55. @53. Fine. What specifically should Trump have done, to give us “More Leverage”?

    rcocean (1a839e)

  56. Yeah, that’s the new DNC talking point. trump was a coward (or in Putin’s pocket) and BETRAYED OUR NOBLE ALLIES.

    It’s every sentient being’s talking point, because it is the reality.

    nk (dbc370)

  57. yes, they keep telling even though Kabul holds less territory than after the Taliban fell, we should continue onward, that was just a company of soldiers, we know what kind of situation, that can degenerate into (black hawk down) was half that against 5-10,000 somalies, and at least a few al queda,

    narciso (d1f714)

  58. Except the NOBLE part. He betrayed the commoners too.

    nk (dbc370)

  59. You want to be serious or be an insult comic

    https://mobile.twitter.com/GrayConnolly/status/1184558386936868865

    narciso (d1f714)

  60. 50. Time123 (7cca75) — 10/17/2019 @ 9:33 am

    Once this was complete he told Syria he wouldn’t stop them from invading.

    Do you mean he told Turkey ?

    He didn’t actualy say he wouldn’t stop them. He said he wouldn’t stop them with soldiers. That became very clear to Erdogan after that telephone call.

    Trump, after that, was still trying to stop the invasion – with somewhat vague threats of non-military action, or he tried to do that after he realized Turkey was going ahead.

    But he didn’t want to carry out his threat to destroy the Turkish economy, either, (as the letter he sent on October 9 clearly states)

    As for why Erdogan wanted to do this, I can’t help but be suspicious it was because of disinformation about the Kurdish forces being supplied to him by Russia, but everyone in office seems to be incapable of imagining that.

    That letter looks like a parody.

    Sammy Finkelman (3ce3e5)

  61. Trump went off script in his call to Erdogan. He did not tell Erdogan to stay on Turkey’s side of the border. And it’s not as if Trump was ignorant of what the military advisers think since he considered this before:

    According to the well-placed military source, “The president has said a number of times: ‘Just let the Turks do it!’ ” in reference to Syria and fighting ISIS.

    The president’s views about wanting to leave Syria have been well known since December 2018, when former Defense Secretary Jim Mattis resigned amid Trump’s plans to pull out of Syria and abandon the Kurds, longtime U.S. allies in the fight against ISIS in Syria.

    Trump wanted this and did not care about his advisers’ concerns. This decision is on him. This was not Erdogsn playing Trump or bluffing him. Trump wanted this and the consequences are on Trump’s political future and on the Kurds’ future lives.

    DRJ (15874d)

  62. Trump likes authoritarian action because it is easier to get results. This is not what America was founded on but Trump doesn’t understand or care about principles, just results.

    I think it is a response to things his father taught him but it doesn’t matter why he is this way, only that he is.

    DRJ (15874d)

  63. @62, yes, i typed Syria by mistake. I meant Turkey.

    Time123 (7cca75)

  64. . Some have observed that, while Trump is probably not a paid Russian asset, he behaves exactly the same as if he were

    I think Russian assets are affecting what he does, and Giuliani’s sources (or co-investigators) were Russian assets and they told him all kinds of tales about Crowdstrike and he servrs, and Biden and prosecutors, and the U.S. Ambassador, and Fethullah Gülen (which you might think is a Turkish interest, but from what it’s linked to – causes of both Mike Flynn and Giuliani) here, clearly a Russian interest)’

    Some people in the administration were so concerned about the way Giuliani was lobbying for the extradition of Fethullah Gülen that they checked to see if he had registered as a foreign agent for Tirkey, but they found out he hadn’t. Of course, this was not coming from Turkey. It was coming from the Russian assets who had become close to Giuliani by making a few campaign contributions with laundered money, probably from the Russian government.

    Sammy Finkelman (3ce3e5)

  65. But this is upsetting people on both sides who think America stands for more than power.

    DRJ (15874d)

  66. It would be interesting to see a poll about what people think is greater about America — our power/influence or our principles/beliefs — and break it down by which Democratic and GOP candidates they support.

    DRJ (15874d)

  67. Ukrainians sammeh one of whom was sanctioned by russia last year, he wanted an alternative to burisma, crowdstrike was sharply criticized for their analysis in the eaely part of the donbass campaign

    narciso (d1f714)

  68. Donald J. Trump is not a United States ally.
    http://www.theforvm *dot* org/donald-j-trump-not-united-states-ally

    Paul Montagu (00daa1)

  69. DRJ @63


    He did not tell Erdogan to stay on Turkey’s side of the border.

    But in an October 8 tweet, he’s against Turkey crossing the border, or at least doing so against opposition:

    Donald J. Trump
    @realDonaldTrump

    Oct 8

    We may be in the process of leaving Syria, but in no way have we Abandoned the Kurds, who are special people and wonderful fighters. Likewise our relationship with Turkey, a NATO and Trading partner, has been very good. Turkey already has a large Kurdish population and fully….

    ….understands that while we only had 50 soldiers remaining in that section of Syria, and they have been removed, any unforced or unnecessary fighting by Turkey will be devastating to their economy and to their very fragile currency. We are helping the Kurds financially/weapons!

    5:55 AM – 8 Oct 2019

    Turkey didn’t fully understand that.

    Sammy Finkelman (3ce3e5)

  70. @57

    1. Not agreed to maintain a safe zone two months ago.
    2. Brought EU into this early and developed a credible multi-national sanctions plan.
    3. Not taken the call. Put a substitute on the call, like Bolton or someone else known to be a hawk, to tell the Turks “We have troops in the area if they’re harmed the president will have to take a military response.
    4. Had an ally in NATO propose expelling Turkey if they invaded. Indicated that he would support this if they invaded.
    5. Take the PPK of the terrorist org list, and have an ally in the senate put out a bill to arm them heavily. Hold this bill.

    None of these could be done in minutes. All would require a strategy, planning, multi party negation, and leadership.

    I’ll bet you there are professionals in this space that could come up with even better ideas.

    Time123 (7cca75)

  71. narciso’s Twitter link says this will drive Turkey to become a Russian vassal state (short-term?
    long-term? — not clear) but in the “medium-term” it will push Turkey toward NATO.

    OK. Gut feelings are sometimes true but this one strikes me as vague and thus not helpful. But even if it is true, so what? Trump doesn’t like NATO so why is it helpful to push Turkey there if Trump is pulling the US away?

    DRJ (15874d)

  72. The call was before October 8, Sammy. Trump was trying to deny it or undo the damage he had caused with his October 8 tweet. It was the equivalent of saying, “I did not take the cookie” the day after eating the cookie.

    DRJ (15874d)

  73. 69. narciso (d1f714) — 10/17/2019 @ 10:03 am

    69.Ukrainians sammeh one of whom was sanctioned by russia last year, he wanted an alternative to burisma, crowdstrike was sharply criticized for their analysis in the eaely part of the donbass campaign

    The dramateus personai may be, and probably is, a bit more complicated than my stab at it, so if one of Giuliani’s sources was sanctioned by Russia at some pint that doesn’t rule out that a lot of stuff he was getting originated with Russia. And if Crowdstrike said something wrong tha doesn’t mean they were wrong about who hacked the DNC. It was clear enough who leaked it.

    Gordon D. Sundland, by the way, according to the New York Times, says that while he knew of Trump’s interest in Borisma he did not know, as of mid-July, that there was any connection to Joe or Hunter Biden. What he thought also was that the more or less quid pro quo was for an Oval Office meeting between elensky and Trump.

    That the way to end the impasse was for Ukraine to investigate Ukrainian anti-Trump activity in 2016 and Borisma was an a conclusion he had come to without being told.

    There were a lot of people, including John Bolton who didn’t like the way Giuliani was freelancing with regard to Ukraine. All sorts of people involved in this history want to testify.

    Sammy Finkelman (3ce3e5)

  74. the eu has been foolishly in my opinion, allied with turkey against Syria, having learned no lesson from what happened in Libya, the Syrians reacted much the way the eradicateurs in Algeria, did after the islamists won an election there, Brahimi should know he was the foreign spokesman for that junta, it was bloody, brutish (not particularly short) but it maintained the Algerian state for nearly 30 years, some elements did strike in france, some went deep into the desert, and became aqim, which took part in Benghazi,

    narciso (d1f714)

  75. I’m not so sure that Pence will pardon Trump after he is removed. That decision didn’t work out so great for President Ford so maybe the current VP will try to avoid his mistake.

    I know. You’re thinking that the spineless Senate Republicans will not convict him. And you may be right. But, if given the chance to vote in a large bloc, they just might. Secretly, they’d love to send him packing.

    noel (f22371)

  76. 75. DRJ (15874d) — 10/17/2019 @ 10:15 am

    The call was before October 8, Sammy. </blockquote. Sunday, October 6.
    Trump was trying to deny it or undo the damage he had caused with his October 8 tweet. It was the equivalent of saying, “I did not take the cookie” the day after eating the cookie.

    See, we don’t know exactly what he said.

    We don’t have the transcript. It’s another call that should be made public, or at least testified about. And at this stage, who’s being protected by maintaining confidentiality? Erdogan?

    And Trump may have gone off script because Erdogan went off script. You maybe can’t blame him for going off script. Trump was probably not given any responses to what Erdogan actually said.

    Now Trump may have said they can cross the border peacefully, or that the U.S. wouldn’t fight them. He probably did not give a “green light”

    Sammy Finkelman (3ce3e5)

  77. 78. noel (f22371) — 10/17/2019 @ 10:25 am

    Secretly, they’d love to send him packing. </blockquote. But nobdy;s willing to try to give the nomination to somebody else.

    The thing maybe that they'd most like to send him packing for – his decision regarding Syria – isn't an impeachable offense, and the Ukraine thing, in the real world, is something similar.

    Sammy Finkelman (3ce3e5)

  78. Sammy: “He probably did not give a “green light”

    OK. I’ll bite. What color was it?

    noel (f22371)

  79. Putin and his country gloat over Trump’s own-goal. This quote is striking:

    “The last time Soviet state officials entered American army bases was in Vietnam.”

    Paul Montagu (00daa1)

  80. in the 90s, after panam 103, mi5 and mi6 made contacts with members of the Libyan fighting group, there were already a branch of al queda, their chief was belhadj, they worked with anwar al libi to try to assassinate him, the plan fell through, he settled in Manchester, wrote the manual that suggested such things like yell torture whenever possible, after 2001, we made friends with the fmr spy chief, now foreign minister, and he threw shade on the lfg, so they were subject to arrest or worse, belhadj was extradited from Malaysia placed in british custody, other like ibn sheikh al libi were captured sent to Afghanistan,

    narciso (d1f714)

  81. @3 – is Ridiculous. We had 50 men in the area. We’re not even sure what kind of troops they are. The Turks knew that too. Telling them we would “take military action” is pure bluff. Would we have taken “Military action”? Of course not – that would be insane. So that’s just making TRump look absurd.

    @4 – We’re not going to push Turkey out of NATO because of a Syrian border dispute. They are too important an ally. Again, that’s meaningless bluff, since Turkey knows that too. And why have an ally propose it? If you want a meaningless bluff, have Trump propose it.

    @2 the EU is already on its way to sanctioning the Turks and so are we. Is this persuading them? No.

    All this stuff is just, well Trump should have tried harder it MIGHT have worked. Yeah, and if FDR had talked tougher to the Japanese in 1941, it MIGHT have worked. Anything is possible.

    rcocean (1a839e)

  82. Trump tried to undo the possible results of his October 6 call with Erdogan so soon that it probably could not have been the result of getting criticism, although it might have been the result fo anticipated criticism.

    The criticism started when he ordered the withdrawal. I think Trump was already tweeting threats agsinst Turkey before that.

    Sammy Finkelman (3ce3e5)

  83. Short of war, nothing could have stopped Turkey from invading. Its their border – not ours. Its their country that considers itself under threat from the Kurds.

    And nothing could have stopped the Democrats and Trump haters from blaming Trump for it.

    rcocean (1a839e)

  84. OMG Putin is happy. I thought the whole point of US foreign policy was to make him sad.

    rcocean (1a839e)

  85. 81.Sammy: “He probably did not give a “green light”

    noel (f22371) — 10/17/2019 @ 10:34 am

    OK. I’ll bite. What color was it?

    He turned off the traffic light.

    And later removed it, but that probably didn’t happen until his aides assessed what had transpired on that call.

    Sammy Finkelman (3ce3e5)

  86. Trump is doing what Putin made him President for, is a more accurate way to say it.

    nk (dbc370)

  87. It doesn’t really matter, anyway. Loyalty is not transactional. Neither is betrayal. We should have stuck by the Kurds against the Turks even if that made Putin happy too.

    nk (dbc370)

  88. A moment of candor from Mr. Mulvaney:

    Mulvaney concedes that Trump’s desire to investigate “DNC server” was part of the reason Ukraine aide was held up
    Reporter: So it was a quid pro quo
    Mulvaney: We do that all the time. get over it. politics is going to be involved in foreign policy. elections have consequences

    Trump’s Chief of Staff would know.

    Paul Montagu (00daa1)

  89. 84. rcocean (1a839e) — 10/17/2019 @ 10:36 am

    We had 50 men in the area. We’re not even sure what kind of troops they are. The Turks knew that too. Telling them we would “take military action” is pure bluff.

    Something was holding off Erdogan until that point. As for military action, the Turkish troops cold have been bombed after they crossed the border. Trump did not want to make explicit what had been implicit before.

    We’re not going to push Turkey out of NATO because of a Syrian border dispute. They are too important an ally.

    Or it’s a breaking of a treaty.

    This was not a border dispute. This was Turkey claiming (probably because of Russian disinformation) that these particular U.S. backed Syrian forces (mostly Kurds) were a threat to Turkey, even though the United States had prevented that; and also wanting to creata a 20 mile wide zone into Syria into which Turkey could expel Syrian refugees, who would then get financially supported by the EU mostly.

    the EU is already on its way to sanctioning the Turks and so are we. Is this persuading them? No

    Erdogan thinks he has the upper hand because he can then just let the refugees cross into Europe, and the EU cares more about stopping refuugees than they care about war or war crimes or human rights. Erdogan expects the sanctios to be minor, and at worst headed off with some kind of argrement.

    Sammy Finkelman (3ce3e5)

  90. The whole point about the DNC server was that that was completely stupid. Mulvaney seems to be one of tose wo knew why aid was being held up.

    Sammy Finkelman (3ce3e5)

  91. #91 —

    So, because Trump believes in some weird conspiracy theory about Crowdstrike and the DNC server, he held up aid to Ukraine needed for them to resist invasion from Russia. Because he needed said weird conspiracy theory investigated.

    Well, we’re just going to have to stop impeaching the man over his pursuit of Hunter Biden then.

    When is the breaking point in the Senate? Who is the breaking point?

    Appalled (1a17de)

  92. Erdogan expects the sanctios to be minor, and at worst headed off with some kind of argrement.

    So you guess. We have no idea how this will all turn out. You can’t mind-read Erdogan from thousands of miles away.

    Anyway, since using military force on Turkey is a no-go, then the EU can handle this without us. Let them, Russia, Turkey, and Syria figure out what to do in Syria. Nothing the USA does will solve the underlying problem. As Trump says, our military isn’t an international police force.

    And even if we get turkey to withdraw today, the permanent underlying Syrian problem remains. As Trump said, people Like Lindsey want to stay in the middle east for a 1000 years and solve everyone’s problems. IOW, be Uncle Sap, paying the bills and spending lives for nothing. Trump wants to bring the boys home from Syria and Afghanistan and I agree with him. None of his critics have an end-game strategy. They can’t even say what “Victory” is. How many years are we keep troops there to “protect the kurds”? Where’s the light at the end of the tunnel?

    rcocean (1a839e)

  93. This was Turkey claiming (probably because of Russian disinformation) that these particular U.S. backed Syrian forces (mostly Kurds) were a threat to Turkey

    But they are a threat to Turkey.

    As unpleasant as this incursion is, Erdogan isn’t doing this just for chuckles. Many of the troops in the SDF are radical Turkish and Iraqi Kurds who sincerely believe in a long-term war with the Turkish state, the Turkish people, and moderate Kurds who do not see the world through their red-tinted glasses.

    That doesn’t meant that Trump didn’t sh!t the bed by: not notifying the SDF of the pullout; not notifying other Kurdish political organisations (notably the ones in Iraq who have a fairly good relationship with Turkey); not explaining to US troops that this presence on the border was at best a stopgap measure and that militant outfits equipped with tacticals were not going to keep ISIS down and out; issuing empty threats to the Turks.

    Christ, the list goes on.

    JP (24566b)

  94. 21… answer is No. Trump didn’t step up. But – IMO – it would be helpful if I had some unvarnished media reporting, as I don’t know enough about it… perhaps I just need to look harder to find something other than the usual OMB. It would also be helpful if our allies in NATO would weigh in… should Turkey still be a member? No more U.S. or NATO weapons for Turkey might be helpful.

    Perhaps this new ceasefire will help.

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  95. The RNC needs to come up with a “Biden and Warren have been bought off by Xi” meme to counter the DNC “Trump has been bought off by Putin” talking point. Since people aren’t interested in intelligent discussion, lets just have a battle of propaganda points. We’re almost there already. Enough, I’ve got to go and pray for Pelosi, she’s having a mental breakdown.

    rcocean (1a839e)

  96. As Trump says, our military isn’t an international police force.

    It isn’t a meter maid squad, either.

    Trump has made the otherwise puissant US military look pointless and weak – not unlike his predecessor.

    I’m not holding my breath that the Democrats who eventually replace him will have any resolve to speak of, either. They helped make this wretched bed eight years ago and now they’re b!tching because the logical conclusion eventually happened.

    JP (24566b)

  97. So you guess. We have no idea how this will all turn out. You can’t mind-read Erdogan from thousands of miles away.

    Actually, this was all 100% predictable, and predicted, to play out exactly in the way it has.

    The fact that every prediction from the IC, State, and the DoD for this capitulation was proven true vs. Trump’s moronic “gut” call 2 Sunday’s ago. Which he had to send a moronic letter a couple of days later, and today dispatch a grovelling Pence and Pompeo to beg for a Trump face saving ceasefire without any teeth.

    So, no, it is not possible to know the future, but it’s eminently possible to predict it, and letting a mentally challenged child to make gut decisions that are the opposite of every smart person with highly accurate, proven in the last 10 days, recommendations.

    Trump is unhinged, incapable of understanding the basic fundamental requirements of the job, things like reading or learning known facts. He knows nothing but thinks he knows everything, is juvenile, stupid, narcissistic, lazy…literally the worst possible attributes of a leader.

    President Pence please, immediately. It’s 100% obvious that the correct solution is to invoke Article 4 of the 25th amendment.

    Whenever the Vice President and a majority of either the principal officers of the executive departments or of such other body as Congress may by law provide, transmit to the President pro tempore of the Senate and the Speaker of the House of Representatives their written declaration that the President is unable to discharge the powers and duties of his office, the Vice President shall immediately assume the powers and duties of the office as Acting President.

    Thereafter, when the President transmits to the President pro tempore of the Senate and the Speaker of the House of Representatives his written declaration that no inability exists, he shall resume the powers and duties of his office unless the Vice President and a majority of either the principal officers of the executive department or of such other body as Congress may by law provide, transmit within four days to the President pro tempore of the Senate and the Speaker of the House of Representatives their written declaration that the President is unable to discharge the powers and duties of his office. Thereupon Congress shall decide the issue, assembling within forty-eight hours for that purpose if not in session. If the Congress, within twenty-one days after receipt of the latter written declaration, or, if Congress is not in session, within twenty-one days after Congress is required to assemble, determines by two-thirds vote of both Houses that the President is unable to discharge the powers and duties of his office, the Vice President shall continue to discharge the same as Acting President; otherwise, the President shall resume the powers and duties of his office.

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (6e7a1c)

  98. RC, I’ll bow to your superior information in international affairs. But I will point you only responded to some of my points. I’ll add that he tried NONE of these. I’ll further point out that the Trump administration has had this to work on for three years. So framing it as if they have no influence over the choices available this month is wrong.

    Time123 (7cca75)

  99. 21… answer is No. Trump didn’t step up. But – IMO – it would be helpful if I had some unvarnished media reporting, as I don’t know enough about it… perhaps I just need to look harder to find something other than the usual OMB. It would also be helpful if our allies in NATO would weigh in… should Turkey still be a member? No more U.S. or NATO weapons for Turkey might be helpful.

    Perhaps this new ceasefire will help.

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0) — 10/17/2019 @ 11:12 am

    CH, One of the things I like about this blog is that people here are motivated to post links to reporting they find accurate and informative. If you’re looking for info on something ask. One of us know it all will likely throw up a link.

    I think it very unlikely that NATO members will make public statements about kicking Turkey out. Trump is the exception in things like that. I expect it to happen quietly and the information to get out from “Sources close to the situation” or something similar. That way if a NATO leader wants to push that they don’t have to commit personally. Helpful for a lot of reasons.

    Time123 (7cca75)

  100. It would be nice to hear from Steve57, given his experience in the military.

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  101. Bribery and extortion banana republic style: https://www.npr.org/2019/10/17/770367250/trumps-miami-golf-course-to-host-g-7-summit

    venal
    adjective
    ve·​nal | \ ˈvē-nᵊl \
    Definition of venal
    1: capable of being bought or obtained for money or other valuable consideration : PURCHASABLE
    especially : open to corrupt influence and especially bribery : MERCENARY
    a venal legislator
    2: originating in, characterized by, or associated with corrupt bribery
    a venal arrangement with the police

    nk (dbc370)

  102. Tweeted during the latest Dem debate…

    Jeff Greenfield
    @greenfield64
    No mention yet of the Obama administration’s policies in Iraq and Syria, which set the stage for much of what has happened since.

    Don’t read much of this sentiment in the MSM… too busy working for their patrons, the Democrats.

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  103. 102… I don’t pay much attention to links from the NYT, CNN, WaPoo, MSNBC, HUFF PO, etc., but I’ll comb back through.

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  104. Appalled (1a17de) — 10/17/2019 @ 10:56 am

    So, because Trump believes in some weird conspiracy theory about Crowdstrike and the DNC server, he held up aid to Ukraine needed for them to resist invasion from Russia. Because he needed said weird conspiracy theory investigated.

    Nobody seems to have an understandibg, or nobody or almost nobody has oublished, just what the conspiracy theory is. The aid wasn’t emergency aid. It wasn’t suoo==pposed to e delivered that fast. But it was a deterrent, and eeded for the future.

    Well, we’re just going to have to stop impeaching the man over his pursuit of Hunter Biden then. </blockquote. The demoocrats seem to be wanting only to talk about that one. But that was also stuff he was getting. It wasn't pursit of Hunter Biden. It was chasing down a story. Which, if true, would have been of more than personal inteest to Donald Trump. The Democrats want to accuse him of asking Ukraine to dig up dirt – in general. Like he was asking them no forcing them to do a witch hunt.

    They also have a complaint that it's help to his campaign regardless of whether it is true or not.

    It could on;y have electoral value if it mattered, and was true.

    It wasn't only coming through Giuliani. Giuliani had Joe Biden concealing his motive for getting rid of the prosecutor; Trump had him boasting about stopping an investigation. (Biden can't tell the truth about this because the key incident probably never happened)

    When is the breaking point in the Senate? Who is the breaking point?

    two Iran Contra like mistakes or scandals isn’t it.

    Sammy Finkelman (3ce3e5)

  105. 102… not important that members of NATO necessarily publicly vocalize any objections to Turkey’s actions, only that it gets done.

    Again, hopefully this ceasefire will lead to more concrete steps and actions.

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  106. 96. They were quite under the control of the United States.

    Sammy Finkelman (3ce3e5)

  107. Turkish Foreign Minister: Cease-fire my ass

    “This is not a ceasefire,” Cavusoglu said during a televised news conference today.

    “We will pause the operation for 120 hours in order for the terrorists to leave,” Cavusoglu said. “We will only stop the operation if our conditions are met.”

    Dave (2808c1)

  108. Look out Italy. You didn’t help us in WWII. And we got our eyes on you too, Japan.

    noel (f22371)

  109. Brett McGurk says that our forces destroyed their ammunition before leaving their posts in Syria because Trump’s order was “incoherent” and didn’t give them time to prepare. It was an emergency measure.

    But hey, before Trump became president, they had “no ammunition, sir,” so Trump must have fixed that, because he alone can fix things, and he alone can keep our troops safe.

    He must have a very wise plan in all this. It’s only TDS (or an aversion to orange) that could make someone doubt it.

    Radegunda (05af0f)

  110. And who stood with us in WWII? Think about it. That’s right. Starts with an R and ends with an A.

    No, not Romania.

    noel (f22371)

  111. “This is not a ceasefire, so don’t be fooled by our 120 hour ceasefire!”

    LOL

    Why would Turkey stop operations at all? They have the stupid orange fool on the ropes.

    Or not.

    BuDuh (d7e3bb)

  112. Can’t you just hear it? Vladamir whispering in Trump’s ear. We were with you in WW2. Ya. And where were those Kurds?

    noel (f22371)

  113. did we forget so soon, Erdogan was an esteemed columnist in the Washington post,

    narciso (d1f714)

  114. The glee they show…

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  115. “Don’t be a tough guy. Don’t be a fool.” – Donald J. Trump

    “Don’t be a luddy-duddy! Don’t be a mooncalf! Don’t be a jabbernowl! You’re not those, are you?” – W.C. Fields

    Godfrey Daniels! I wonder… I wonder… – DCSCA [in his WC Fields voice.]

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  116. If Trump stood in the middle of Fifth Ave and claimed that Russia was our one true ally, of course they’d believe him!

    noel (f22371)

  117. but lets keep our eye on the big picture,

    https://www.frontpagemag.com/fpm/2019/10/enemy-alliance-michael-ledeen/

    narciso (d1f714)

  118. was that why there was a ‘peregruska’ in 2009, reset, or was it only because of the iran deal

    narciso (d1f714)

  119. Brett McGurk says that our forces destroyed their ammunition before leaving their posts in Syria because Trump’s order was “incoherent” and didn’t give them time to prepare.

    I forgot, in what official capacity does McGurk presently serve the United States?

    BuDuh (d7e3bb)

  120. he supported the Iranian proxy militias, the pallets of cash to the sepah, of course those same militias I mentioned above,

    https://twitter.com/seanmdav/status/1184902289716367360

    narciso (d1f714)

  121. Why would Turkey stop operations at all? They have the stupid orange fool on the ropes.

    Or not.

    A) Trump removed all threats for sanctions
    B) Turkey has already exceeded the formerly agreed to “safe zone”
    C) Consolidating the logistics train, while not under fire, is militarily a jackpot. They are not stopping operations. That’s not what those words mean.

    But, Trump’s, and Trump’s Taint™, ignorance of basic concepts is totally on brand.

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (6e7a1c)

  122. So Pence says they’ve “arrived at an agreement with Erdogan that implements an immediate ceasefire, creates a period of 5 days where we’ll have the opportunity to facilitate our Kurdish allies to move out of the safe zone region, and once that’s accomplished, then the ceasefire becomes permanent and there’ll be a halt to all military operations in the safe zone.”

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  123. And the message busy Americans take away from this: they now know their are Senators and House members who react more to Kurds under fire 7,000 miles away than Americans getting gunned down in mass shootings right here at home.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  124. So Pence says they’ve “arrived at an agreement with Erdogan that implements an immediate ceasefire, creates a period of 5 days where we’ll have the opportunity to facilitate our Kurdish allies to move out of the safe zone region, and once that’s accomplished, then the ceasefire becomes permanent and there’ll be a halt to all military operations in the safe zone.”

    A)So where is the agreement for Turkey to withdraw, even to the 20 mile “safe zone”?
    B)The Kurd’s must leave, not just in the “safe zone”, but throughout the entire region.
    C)Turkey get’s to consolidate it’s gains.
    D)Turkey doesn’t get sanctions.
    E)Russia gets to consolidate it’s gains in region.
    F)Iran gets to consolidate it’s gains in region.
    G)ISIS gets a reprieve from attacks.

    You seem to be saying that some/any of this is a good thing, both the go ahead from Trump, and the panicked sending of Pence and Pompeo to beg for a pause in the thing Trump OK’d…and calling it a win, not only a win, but GENIUS!!

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (6e7a1c)

  125. I don’t “seem to be saying anything”, that’s a direct quote from Pence.

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  126. I don’t “seem to be saying anything”, that’s a direct quote from Pence.

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0) — 10/17/2019 @ 12:48 pm

    So the other 15 posts on this thread don’t exist?

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (6e7a1c)

  127. Good grief! Pence and Pompeo negotiated the Kurd’s retreat? Essentially their surrender? Their defeat, in other words?

    So now if the Kurds say, “Shove it, you Indiana Trump butt gerbil! We’re Kurds, not Americans. We don’t surrender, we die fighting.”, it will be the Kurds who are the aggressors?

    nk (dbc370)

  128. You’re confused.

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  129. 127, well dont worry that’s the spectrum of pols from Alex P. Keaton R’s leftward to whatever is left of the Blue Dogs and DLCs, in other words the emerging permanent minority.

    urbanleftbehind (5eecdb)

  130. @9.There is some irony to that; in a WE piece covering a talk he gave, Mattis opened up about his two stints in jail as a youth.

    So now Felicity Huffman and Jim Mattis literally have done more time than Donald Trump ever will– or Richard Nixon ever did.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  131. #123:
    McGurk “served in senior national security positions under Presidents George W. Bush, Barack Obama, and Donald Trump. Most recently, he was the Special Presidential Envoy for the Global Coalition to Counter ISIL.”
    Are you suggesting that because he isn’t presently in government, he can’t know anything? Is that how it works?

    Do you disbelieve the reports that we bombed our own base after leaving it hastily, in order to “reduce the facility’s military usefulness” to those taking it over? Do you disbelieve Col. Myles Caggin, “a spokesman for the U.S.-led coalition overseeing the fight against Islamic State”?

    Are we to disbelieve anyone who doesn’t speak directly for Donald Trump? Should we reflexively doubt whatever makes him look bad? I’ve seen that attitude in abundance in the comments sections of other sites: that Trump must always be right, and whoever says otherwise is a liar and a hater. Some people want to keep living in the Trumpist bubble forever.

    Radegunda (05af0f)

  132. @133. Let’s all just send the Kurds our “thoughts and prayers…”

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  133. Look out Italy. You didn’t help us in WWII.

    Technically, Italy did join the Allies after surrendering.

    But I don’t think they helped at Normandy.

    (One of the many apocryphal quotes attributed to Churchill concerns his reaction to Italy allying with Germany: “It’s only fair – we had them last time.”)

    Dave (2808c1)

  134. @137. ‘Fog of war’ — Apparently,Italy did “help at Normandy”– they helped the Germans. Seems there were Italian soldiers from a unit peppered into the AA batteries. Google it. Sorta like a future Pope working the guns shooting up at Allied bombers.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  135. 138… which movie, DCSCA?

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  136. Are you suggesting that because he isn’t presently in government, he can’t know anything? Is that how it works?

    Not in the least. He can know some things, but he certainly can’t know first hand about these things. It is why I refrain from posting Pro-Trump Sebastian Gorka’s positive hearsay when it cones to the specifics. He can’t possibly know either.

    I will wait until actual service members, who were there, come forward with the story. And I don’t mean anonymous service members.

    BuDuh (d7e3bb)

  137. @34 We’re going to need to get that margin in the house first. Actually, based on the current plan we’re going to need to get that margin before they vote on the pre-impeachment party planning agenda, sorry the impeachment inquiry, and then they can see what sort of margin they’ve got for impeachment.

    Frosty, Fp (f27e97)

  138. @139. Italian Division In Normandy – Axis History Forum

    forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=48913

    Mamma-mia!

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  139. Do you disbelieve the reports that we bombed our own base after leaving it hastily, in order to “reduce the facility’s military usefulness” to those taking it over? 

    Of course not. That is SOP for hasty bug outs. It didn’t work so well when we scramed from Yemen, but that is a pesky Whataboutism.

    Whether Mcgurk knows first hand that the administration’s instructions were “incoherent” seems to be at issue.

    BuDuh (d7e3bb)

  140. Not in the least. He can know some things, but he certainly can’t know first hand about these things. It is why I refrain from posting Pro-Trump Sebastian Gorka’s positive hearsay when it cones to the specifics. He can’t possibly know either.

    Well, there’s that they’re not in government, also one spent decades actually doing the job, the other…well…he’s Sebastian Gorka.

    I guess he was in government for a few months, but he couldn’t get a security clearance. OK, he’s an expert in something, maybe, getting on TV(?) but anything else? He’s another Corey LewendavisOdowski, a loser, who happened to fall into the campaign/administration of least qualified politician in the history of the world, where lack of knowledge is a job qualification.

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (6e7a1c)

  141. “Whether Mcgurk knows first hand that the administration’s instructions were “incoherent” seems to be at issue.”

    Everything the Trump admin does is incoherent, why is this specific example unbelievable.

    Davethulhu (fab944)

  142. nk
    “loyalty is not transactional”

    Agreed.

    I also agree with Trump that its a god forsaken piece of real estate that is not worth our soldiers blood. I agree that the PKK are communist nutjobs. But we were already there fighting alongside the Kurds of all stripes for a couple years now. Show some loyalty and keep some loyalty. Besides, that loyalty is the right thing to do, maybe be pragmatic and understand we. may need to go spank ISIS a bit here and there and it’d be nice to have loyal people there to watch our backs.
    Trump just binned the whole relationship and it won’t be forgotten

    But I held my nose when Trump rattled on about us paying for the Kurds. The Kurds got their money, the war is over g’bye. “Nice transaction we had. Let’s do it again if you are still alive…”

    steveg (354706)

  143. So now Felicity Huffman and Jim Mattis literally have done more time than Donald Trump ever will– or Richard Nixon ever did.

    DCSCA (797bc0) — 10/17/2019 @ 12:54 pm

    True, if you ignore the years Trump spent in military school.

    DRJ (15874d)

  144. I agree, steveg.

    DRJ (15874d)

  145. I will wait until actual service members, who were there, come forward with the story. And I don’t mean anonymous service members.

    BuDuh (d7e3bb) — 10/17/2019 @ 1:27 pm

    Mattis was directly involved. Mattis resigned over the way Trump wanted to treat allies, and now Trump has done it.

    DRJ (15874d)

  146. New post up on Turkey/US deal.

    Dana (05f22b)

  147. @90. ‘… loyalty is not transactional.’

    Of course it is; stop feeding a cat and the kitty finds another to feed off.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  148. @147. LOL Wonder if his classmates felt MS was a prison– or just doing penance- or mybe actually liked it. Apparently he still was an undisciplined terror there.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  149. 115. BuDuh (d7e3bb) — 10/17/2019 @ 12:06 pm

    Why would Turkey stop operations at all?

    Never cut off your enemies line of retreat, and that’s what they were doing. They were forcing them to fight, at least until the “Kurdish” forces made their arrangement with the Syrian government.

    Sammy Finkelman (3ce3e5)


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