Patterico's Pontifications

10/11/2019

Giuliani Clients Indicted and Arrested for Ukraine-Related Campaign Finance Violations

Filed under: General — Patterico @ 7:52 am



New York Times:

Federal prosecutors unsealed charges on Thursday against two men who have aided President Trump’s efforts to gather damaging information in Ukraine about his political opponents, a criminal case that signaled growing legal exposure for the president’s allies as Mr. Trump tries to blunt an impeachment inquiry in Congress.

The indictment of the two men, Lev Parnas and Igor Fruman, sketched a complex scheme to violate campaign finance laws and did not accuse Mr. Trump of wrongdoing. But it revealed new details about the push to pressure Ukraine: a campaign encouraged by Mr. Trump, led by his private lawyer Rudolph W. Giuliani and assisted by obscure figures like Mr. Parnas and Mr. Fruman.

The accusation is that the two used shell companies to launder Russian money into the campaign coffers of a U.S. Congressman. That congressman wrote a letter to Mike Pompeo complaining about the U.S. ambassador who had criticized the prosecutor who had once looked into Burisma, the company on whose board Hunter Biden had sat.

Parnas and Fruman had lunch the day before their arrest with — ta da! — Rudy Giuliani. Another interesting tidbit about these folks and Giuliani concerns their parallel and totally unrelated impending trips to Vienna. The feds had not planned to arrest Parnas and Fruman this early, but they had one-way tickets to Frankfurt, Germany, and were in the airport when taken into custody. The Wall Street Journal has reported that their ultimate destination was Vienna. Giuliani was also headed there the next day, but supposedly had no plans to meet with them there. As the Atlantic wryly observes: “By this logic, Giuliani was also planning to fly to Vienna within roughly 24 hours of his business associates, but do no business with them while all three were there.” Totally believable!

Trump denies knowing these guys. Naturally there is a photo of him with both of them and Giuliani. But, as Trump says, he is photographed with a lot of people. He also had dinner with Parnas at least once at the White House, but I guess he also has dinner with a lot of people at the White House. After all: who among us hasn’t eaten dinner with Trump at the White House?

Lost in the stories about the indictment is a significant fact: Parnas and Fruman were pursuing a liquefied gas venture in Ukraine, and thus could have benefited financially from an investigation of Burisma, Ukraine’s largest natural gas company. In this connection, I think it’s worth quoting at length from a post I wrote on October 2, nine days ago:

It’s good to see that Trump superfans are totally concerned about people with ties to the U.S. government using those ties to further their personal interests, or the interests of people they represent. That’s how I know Trump superfans will totally be Very Concerned about this:

The hunt by President Trump’s attorney Rudolph W. Giuliani for material in Ukraine damaging to Democrats has put a spotlight on business ties he has had in the former Soviet republic for at least a decade, work that has introduced him to high-level Ukrainian financial and political circles.

Giuliani has said he has been working for free solely to benefit his client, Trump, as he has sought information from Ukrainian officials — an effort that has spurred a House impeachment inquiry into whether the president abused his power.

However, House investigators are now seeking records about Giuliani’s past clientele in Ukraine, including Pavel Fuks, a wealthy developer who financed consulting work Giuliani did in 2017 for the city of Kharkiv. That same year, according to court filings, Fuks said he was banned from entering the United States for five years. The documents do not specify why.

House committees have also requested documents and depositions from two of Giuliani’s current clients, Florida-based businessmen who have been pursuing opportunities in Ukraine for a new liquefied natural gas venture.

The men, Lev Parnas and Igor Fruman, have been assisting Giuliani’s push to get Ukrainian officials to investigate former vice president Joe Biden and his son and Giuliani’s claim that Democrats conspired with Ukrainians in the 2016 campaign.

A new liquefied natural gas venture. Hmmmmmmm. Does that sound familiar, Trump superfans?

Oooh! I know. Burisma is a natural gas company. In fact, the largest one in Ukraine.

And Rudy represents their competitors. Competitors who would stand to gain a lot if Burisma were criminally investigated in Ukraine.

Hmmmmmm.

In this quotation I added extra emphasis to the name “Lev Parnas and Igor Fruman” — the folks whose indictment was unsealed yesterday.

The only mention I see of Parnas and Fruman’s natural gas ambitions in the New York Times story appears in the 21st paragraph, which states:

The work the two men did in Ukraine for Mr. Giuliani seems to have been a mixture of business and politics. Mr. Parnas advised Mr. Giuliani on energy deals in the region and pursued his own in Ukraine even as he portrayed himself as a representative of Mr. Giuliani on the Trump-related matters.

That seems to leave out a lot of context.

I have to believe that someone will notice this connection, and that we will be hearing a lot more about it.

[Cross-posted at The Jury Talks Back.]

178 Responses to “Giuliani Clients Indicted and Arrested for Ukraine-Related Campaign Finance Violations”

  1. Outfit founded by trevor potter, next generation crew.

    narciso (d1f714)

  2. Lev and Igor. Who hangs around guys like that in the middle of a Russia investigation? What President, in his right mind, would let them get close to him?

    Oh, that’s right.

    noel (f22371)

  3. Patterico, I had seen this story and just assumed it was the typical deal of trump being somewhat corrupt in a really dumb way. But the information you found is really interesting context.

    Time123 (797615)

  4. Who gets paid a million dollars by a guy who looks like a bond villain oh the vice presidents coked up son.

    narciso (d1f714)

  5. Good post, Patterico. However, I have decided that Trump, the filthy Judas, is now a non-person as far as I’m concerned, and I will waste no more thoughts or words on him.

    (Let’s see how long it lasts. ;))

    nk (dbc370)

  6. The chief lobbyist for the hapsburg group was hillarys campaign manager, and he doesnt get charged.

    narciso (d1f714)

  7. The press pretends o’rourke is freddie prnze jr, warren is mary tyler moore, theu might have cast harris correctly as olivia pope, we’re supposed to buy any of this.

    narciso (d1f714)

  8. Under mr. Zs management ukraine was producumg less gas, very convenient, likd the mob doing short count in a casinp

    narciso (d1f714)

  9. Breaking:

    Appeals court rules against Trump in fight with Congress over president’s accounting firm records
    Congress can seek eight years of President Trump’s business records from his accounting firm, a federal appeals court in Washington ruled Friday in one of several legal battles over access to the president’s financial data.
    In a 2-1 ruling, the U.S. Court of Appeals for the D.C. Circuit upheld Congress’s broad investigative powers and rejected the president’s bid to block lawmakers from subpoenaing the documents.

    Rip Murdock (ad4321)

  10. The men, Lev Parnas and Igor Fruman, have been assisting Giuliani’s push to get Ukrainian officials to investigate former vice president Joe Biden and his son and Giuliani’s claim that Democrats conspired with Ukrainians in the 2016 campaign.

    Always trust content from patterico.com.

    Dave (1bb933)

  11. Kicking up the circuit, till we find a judge that reads the law.

    narciso (d1f714)

  12. Just like amy jackson, atty for william jefferson who handed a confy chair to graug and an anvil to roger stone ans a gag.

    narciso (d1f714)

  13. In the indictment, there are two other defendants, David Correia and Andrey Kukushkin, who were involved in the conspiracy to conceal the actual source of the payments from the (so far) unidentified “Russian businessman”.
    Parnas fleeced $350,000 from a New Jersey couple in a bogus movie deal, and Correia threatened the couple to go away, saying he had connections with Ukrainians, Giuliani and the White House. Correia is a Trumpalista, but there’s not a lot more out there.

    Paul Montagu (00daa1)

  14. Correia is a Trumpalista, but there’s not a lot more out there.

    Hey, draining the swamp is dirty work! It can’t be done by RINO sissies nattering about muh principles.

    Radegunda (d2a4ef)

  15. “confy chair to graug and an anvil to roger stone ans a gag.”

    Bro did you know there is a spellcheck built in to this site? There’s no need for multiple typos in each comment unless you’re just being willfully stupid.

    JRH (52aed3)

  16. Sorry that was kind of rude, maybe you have epilepsy or something but it’s really odd.

    JRH (52aed3)

  17. I believe English is not his first language. Maybe Klingon.

    Rip Murdock (ad4321)

  18. Ugh I was seriously rude. sorry. I’d delete those comments if I could. Taking an internet time out now.

    JRH (52aed3)

  19. they are monty python reference, the comfy chair from the inquisition sketch and the anvil that punctuated most episode, so they admitted they donated to trump in 2016, they sought contacts with the chief rabbi of kiev, the non Russian part of Ukraine,

    so much like recarey jeb’s partner in an hmo scheme, that fled to spain to escape extradition, I know he forgot he was a developer once upon a time,

    narciso (d1f714)

  20. I believe English is not his first language. Maybe Klingon.

    It depends on who’s running the persona, it’s a 24/7 posting persona, so each shift has a fairly distinctive style. Some are pretty good English speakers, or at least good at Google Translate.

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (6e7a1c)

  21. It’s fine, JRH. narciso is used to the ribbing. And we are used to narciso. Just keep on doing what you do, narciso. For one thing, I can’t send my decoder ring back for a refund. For another, that’s how we tell you apart from mg (and formerly happyfeet).

    nk (dbc370)

  22. No, certain branches of the Dem party want Rudy left in general pop at Rikers or Sing Sing.

    urbanleftbehind (5eecdb)

  23. like recipients of Weinstein, Epstein or Madoff’s largesse,

    narciso (d1f714)

  24. there was one comment where I was 50/50 that he had a stroke while writing a sentence.

    Time123 (80b471)

  25. To be fair, there are others where he has an interesting point.

    Time123 (80b471)

  26. perhaps some posts when I feel we’re losing the country, and we’re focusing on garbage, most of the most vociferous people who are now speaking for the kurds, were fine with abandoning them in 91, and writing them off after the Iraq war, first stage,

    but you look what these gang of monkeys, with biden as head chimp are signing on to,

    narciso (d1f714)

  27. so judge rao, identifies that the congress is not requesting records under impeachment power,

    narciso (d1f714)

  28. Monkeys on parade, narciso…

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  29. you look what these gang of monkeys, with biden as head chimp are signing on to

    Biden looks like George Washington in comparison with Trump, who has the remarkable capacity to increase my estimation of people I have long been critical of, just because they’re not as awful in crucial respects.

    I’ve had plenty of critical things to say about Obama, but at least he didn’t regularly beclown himself (and thus the country) in public. And by the report of former military officers, he approached discussions of military and foreign policy in a serious way, soliciting a range of opinions and asking serious questions (as his predecessor had done). But Trump simply thinks he knows best and everyone who disagrees is stupid. And his devotees take the same view: Trump is always right, and people who disapprove are enemies of America. That’s what a cult looks like.

    Radegunda (d2a4ef)

  30. Trump is always right, and people who disapprove are enemies of America.

    His political brand is built on stoking division and maintaining a state of hysteria among his followers. In this twisted view of the world, there can be no such thing as good-faith disagreement or compromise.

    It’s the Alinsky-ite Democratic playbook that we all used to (rightfully) deride, taken to its absurd conclusion. But now we’re supposed to embrace it as brilliant and patriotic and good because “our” side is doing it.

    P.S. Why do you hate America?

    Dave (1bb933)

  31. “so judge rao, identifies that the congress is not requesting records under impeachment power,”

    Judge Rao’s opinion is nonsense. Congress can request the records for any reason at all.

    Davethulhu (1ebe81)

  32. Also, as a Trump appointee, she should have recused.

    Davethulhu (1ebe81)

  33. I don’t consider myself a Trump fan. Let alone a “superfan.” And I am concerned about abuse of position.

    But one cannot help notice that these people are under indictment, and facing possible jail sentences. So my “concern” is alleviated, somewhat, by the fact that the crooks will, hopefully, and after due process of law, be behind bars.

    La famiglia Biden faces no such possibility. It’s the Clinton rule — being in a high position in one party exempts you from scrutiny, let alone criminal prosecution. THAT concerns me much more.

    Bored Lawyer (998177)

  34. really how about ft. hood, pouring gasoline on Sanford and Baltimore, dismissing Charlie Hebdo as some random folk, furthering a criminal fraud about Benghazi, being ignorant about fast and furious about the irs, dismissing Islamic state as the jayvee team, I can come with a few dozen more, but they treat him like a pet reward him with pelf, over the iran deal and the media consolidation of net neutrality,

    narciso (d1f714)

  35. 36… she’s just playing by the Democrats rules…

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  36. I can come with a few dozen more

    But Trump has thousands.

    Dave (1bb933)

  37. 38… and don’t hold your breath waiting for someone in the MSM showing an interest in the how and why donations to the Clinton Foundation took a nosedive after the pantsuited pant load lost in Nov-’16…

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  38. does appearing on ‘bubba the love sponge’ count as a public appearance, how about that zeal about march madness, or leaving general mccrystal on the tarmac while pitching your city for the Olympics,

    narciso (d1f714)

  39. that was the foundation, which failed to provide tax info a 1,000 times, but they get a pass, they helped loot Nigeria and Haiti, part from the old mark rich gang, part from Clinton’s inlaws,

    narciso (d1f714)

  40. and don’t hold your breath waiting for someone in the MSM showing an interest in the how and why donations to the Clinton Foundation took a nosedive after the pantsuited pant load lost in Nov-’16…

    Uhh, because she’s not president, and the guy in that office is much simpler and cheaper to bribe, plus he’s the best possible mark. He’s stupid, and thinks he’s smart, the perfect partner for cheap bribes…using his hotel rooms, flattering him, and selling him conspiracy theories that make him think he is smart.

    He’s not, he’s a moron, and he’s not even very good in his corruption; it’s blatant, simple, and in the open.

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (6e7a1c)

  41. You’d think after 3 years “But Hillary” would lose it’s luster.

    Davethulhu (fab944)

  42. Giuliani was also planning to fly to Vienna within roughly 24 hours of his business associates, but do no business with them while all three were there.” Totally believable!

    It makes sense if they were to meet, not with Giuliani, but with their FSB [= KGB] handlers, so they could give live, uneavesdropped upon advice, on what exactly Giuliani’s sources should say to him in order to maintain the hoax they were pulling on him..

    (they couldn’t comunicate by telephone or email with their handlers because maybe there was a FISa warant out on someone – or just plain foreign surveillance.)

    Sammy Finkelman (1d7dd8)

  43. but they are never accountable are they, they destroy electronic records, that’s not obstruction, the bureau protects all her minions with blanket immunity then they close the case, she broke a dozen statutes, in the course of the operation,

    narciso (d1f714)

  44. “You’d think after 3 years “But Hillary” would lose it’s luster.”

    You’d think superanklebiting Trump for three years would wear these puppies out.

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  45. They made these campaign contributions (not using their own money becaue they were working for the source of the money, which was almost certainly Russia, and that means Vladimir Putin) to get close to high level Republicans. Without that, they may never have made contact with Giuliani.

    Now, actually, getting Trump involved, and him following up. blows the whole hoax up.

    Sammy Finkelman (1d7dd8)

  46. “You’d think superanklebiting Trump for three years would wear these puppies out.”

    Where’s the birth certificate?

    Davethulhu (fab944)

  47. wrong rodeo, wrong clown show,

    Fuks sold all his business assets in Russia in 2011 and 2012 and he has not been in Russia since 2015 due to political reasons in not supporting the Russian aggression in Ukraine. Pavel Fuks started to invest in Ukrainian assets in 2014, as he sees it as a country of great business potential.[15]

    narciso (d1f714)

  48. I’m getting the notion, everyone in law enforcement are corrupt or idiots, he was sanctioned by Russia, as a counterplay,

    Fuks is the co-organizer of the construction of the memorial complex “Babi Yar” (the project worth of the complex is estimated at US$50–100 million, and it is planned to be completed it in 2021, on the 80th anniversary of the tragedy of Babi Yar).[21] On March 19, 2017, the Supervisory Board of the Memorial Center for the Holocaust “Babi Yar” was established, and included Pavel Fuks, the Mayor of Kiev Vitali Klitschko and his brother, the professional boxer Wladimir Klitschko, the shareholders of the consortium “Alfa Group” Mikhail Fridman and German Khan and others.[22][23] The project’s development fund was created with the help of consultants from the American big-four accounting firm “Ernst & Young”.[24] According to Fuks, the structure of the memorial will include educational programs, a research center and a museum.[24]

    narciso (d1f714)

  49. and don’t hold your breath waiting for someone in the MSM showing an interest in the how and why donations to the Clinton Foundation took a nosedive after the pantsuited pant load lost in Nov-’16…

    They reported on it 2.5 years ago.

    In fact, fundraising peaked in 2014 and then started falling sharply, as the graph in this article by OpenSecrets shows. The start of the decline is not correlated with Clinton’s loss in the presidential election.

    Dave (1bb933)

  50. congratulations they went after someone who was against Russia, a decade ago he had projects in Russia, but not after the invasion of the Donbass,

    narciso (d1f714)

  51. Open Secrets headline: “Clinton Foundation’s revenue hit 15-year low after 2016 presidential election”

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  52. #10

    Breaking:

    Appeals court rules against Trump in fight with Congress over president’s accounting firm records
    Congress can seek eight years of President Trump’s business records from his accounting firm, a federal appeals court in Washington ruled Friday in one of several legal battles over access to the president’s financial data.
    In a 2-1 ruling, the U.S. Court of Appeals for the D.C. Circuit upheld Congress’s broad investigative powers and rejected the president’s bid to block lawmakers from subpoenaing the documents.

    Rip Murdock (ad4321) — 10/11/2019 @ 8:24 am

    Clinton appointee , Oboma appointee Millet – who is far to the left of ginsburg and Trump appointee Rao.

    Rao – has the better argument.

    joe (debac0)

  53. “The feds had not planned to arrest Parnas and Fruman this early, but they had one-way tickets to Frankfurt, Germany, and were in the airport when taken into custody.”

    Note to self: “Buy a round trip international ticket, when under FBI surveillance.”

    Harcourt Fenton Mudd (0c349e)

  54. Sounds like a weak case. Giuliani knows 2 Ukrainians who may have a motive for making their competitor look bad by telling the truth about Hunter Biden. And Trump knows Gulliani so THEREFORE he knows these 2 guys. And therefore, Trump somehow did something Bad, although its not clear what.

    Here’s an idea. Hunter Biden either got a No-show graft job due to his being Biden’s son AND Biden pressured the Ukraine into stopping an investigation into it OR the Biden’s did nothing wrong. An investigation should prove their innocence. SO, why are they against it being investigated?

    rcocean (1a839e)

  55. The Judiciary has gone to war against Trump – or rather the obama left wing judges have. A NY District Court has issued a nation wide injunction against Trump’s new Visa rules. Why? reasons. You got almost 1,000 District Judges, so you can always find one who will rule your way. The SCOTUS needs to take action on the abuse of the nation wide injunctions by District Judges. will they?

    rcocean (1a839e)

  56. Or akip town like the awan bros wuth a treasure trove of classified info bound for pakistan.

    narciso (29c306)

  57. The Judiciary has gone to war against Trump

    Here’s a radical idea: maybe he should stop violating the law.

    Trump stood in front of a camera and said “I have an Article 2 where I have the right to do whatever I want as president.”

    That is a declaration of war on the rule of law and the courts are our last line of defense.

    Dave (1bb933)

  58. ”That is a declaration of war on the rule of law and the courts are our last line of defense.”
    Dave (1bb933) — 10/11/2019 @ 1:25 pm

    More like the courts are our last line of defense against elections.

    Munroe (53beca)

  59. Photos. We have photos.

    Yes, brings to mind these two best buds talking tape tips. Ampex or Memorex, fellas?-

    https://www.cbsnews.com/pictures/elvis-and-nixon/

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  60. Here is where Justice Roberts can perhaps do some good with his squishy approach. Hold that yes of course the Pres can be investigated during office-but it has to be federal not state; and that it has to meet some “5 part test” including “sufficient gravity to warrant the disruption of the Nations’ executive in the performance of his/her/Zere duties.” Which this is not.

    Harcourt Fenton Mudd (0c349e)

  61. @61 – Hanlon’s Razor. That and the Tourette’s thing Trump has where any random thought that pops into his head falls out of his face because he has no filter between his brain and his mouth. This is, after all, a man who actually tried telling an Economist interviewer that he had just invented the term “priming the pump” as it relates to economic stimulus spending.

    Jerryskids (702a61)

  62. More like the courts are our last line of defense against elections.

    Trump’s legal problems all stem from covering up the illegal intervention and/or recruitment of foreign governments into election campaigns on his behalf.

    It is precisely the integrity of elections as expressions of the will of the American (not Russian, not Ukrainian) people that is at stake.

    Dave (1bb933)

  63. The fired ambassador was apaparently lied about – and she thinks Giuliani was in favor of corruption.

    Sammy Finkelman (102c75)

  64. Lead paragraph from the NYT

    Federal prosecutors unsealed charges on Thursday against two men who have aided President Trump’s efforts to gather damaging information in Ukraine about his political opponents, a criminal case that signaled growing legal exposure for the president’s allies as Mr. Trump tries to blunt an impeachment inquiry in Congress.

    Notice the the lead, has Zero, zip, nada, relationship with the actual charges.

    President Trump is right as usual. The fake news is the enemy of the people

    iowan2 (9c8856)

  65. rcocean (1a839e) — 10/11/2019 @ 12:49 pm

    Hunter Biden either got a No-show graft job due to his being Biden’s son AND Biden pressured the Ukraine into stopping an investigation into it OR the Biden’s did nothing wrong.

    Both options are false. It was a little show maybe graft business relationship but Biden didn’t pressure Ukraine into stopping an investigation into the company – orratehr the ownership of the company maybe – that was paying Hunter Biden.

    An investigation should prove their innocence. SO, why are they against it being investigated?

    As I said, Biden lied about the extreme pressure he put on the Ukrainian government to fire the corrupt prosecutor. He made the whole story up that was later used by Putin’s stooges to slander Biden to Giuliani. Is that too complcated.

    Sammy Finkelman (102c75)

  66. Democrats want to make Trump and Giuliani the sole masterminds.

    Leaving Putin and Russia in the clear. Completely in the clear. The indicted businessmen are workingon their own and not for Russia etc.

    If Trump and Giuliani got fooled, it’s not grouds for impeachment – it’s something like Iran contra only worse.

    Sammy Finkelman (102c75)

  67. A lot of these Ukrainians could be pro-Russian.

    Right now, neither Democrats nor Republicans are interested in the possibility that Russia is responsible for the hoaxing of Giullani and others. Dems deny Giulaini was fooled – and well so do Reps for now.

    Sammy Finkelman (102c75)

  68. #35

    “so judge rao, identifies that the congress is not requesting records under impeachment power,”

    Judge Rao’s opinion is nonsense. Congress can request the records for any reason at all.

    Davethulhu (1ebe81) — 10/11/2019 @ 10:57 am

    That’s manifestly not true.

    The underlining power of their subpoena is for legislative purposes. Did they announce *why* they want access to Trump’s records and for what legislative purposes?

    I mean, I guess it would be a kosher request had they wanted to see how tax avoidance is done by a billionaire so that they can tailor their next tax laws… but, have that even mentioned that in any way shape or form?

    Or, is it they’re using this power to punitively punish Trump because Orange Man Bad? I mean… don’t you see how dangerous this precedent would be for future Presidents? Hell, not just any president, what about Mitch McConnell? What if the GOP takes control over the House next and then subpoena’ed Pelosi/Schiff/Nadler’s tax returns? What’s to stop them?

    whembly (fd57f6)

  69. actually fuks is very pro Ukrainian even sanctioned by Russia in 2018

    https://twitter.com/CarrollQuigley1/status/1182542682641633281

    narciso (d1f714)

  70. #72, #35

    35, so wrong its painful to experience. As mentioned, congress power to investigate is predicated on legislative purpose.

    So, President Trumps finances. What is the legislative purpose? Writing new IRS rules? Specifically what? The tax code is massive. Some specificity is required. Trump is crooked? Again some predicate would be required, but if that were the issue, the DoJ actually has the power to investigate crime, not congress.

    iowan2 (9c8856)

  71. 35, so wrong its painful to experience. As mentioned, congress power to investigate is predicated on legislative purpose.

    So, President Trumps finances. What is the legislative purpose? Writing new IRS rules? Specifically what? The tax code is massive. Some specificity is required. Trump is crooked? Again some predicate would be required, but if that were the issue, the DoJ actually has the power to investigate crime, not congress.

    Except, you know, in reality, both legal reality as well as practical reality.

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (6e7a1c)

  72. “That’s manifestly not true.”

    (f) Disclosure to Committees of Congress
    (1) Committee on Ways and Means, Committee on Finance, and Joint Committee on Taxation

    Upon written request from the chairman of the Committee on Ways and Means of the House of Representatives, the chairman of the Committee on Finance of the Senate, or the chairman of the Joint Committee on Taxation, the Secretary shall furnish such committee with any return or return information specified in such request, except that any return or return information which can be associated with, or otherwise identify, directly or indirectly, a particular taxpayer shall be furnished to such committee only when sitting in closed executive session unless such taxpayer otherwise consents in writing to such disclosure.

    https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/26/6103

    Davethulhu (fab944)

  73. (f) Disclosure to Committees of Congress
    (1) Committee on Ways and Means, Committee on Finance, and Joint Committee on Taxation

    Upon written request from the chairman of the Committee on Ways and Means of the House of Representatives, the chairman of the Committee on Finance of the Senate, or the chairman of the Joint Committee on Taxation, the Secretary shall furnish such committee with any return or return information specified in such request, except that any return or return information which can be associated with, or otherwise identify, directly or indirectly, a particular taxpayer shall be furnished to such committee only when sitting in closed executive session unless such taxpayer otherwise consents in writing to such disclosure.

    What’s that bolded? This here says that the tax returns cannot be ID’ed. Right?

    I think the relevant section that Democrats are invoking:

    (3)Other committees
    Pursuant to an action by, and upon written request by the chairman of, a committee of the Senate or the House of Representatives (other than a committee specified in paragraph (1)) specially authorized to inspect any return or return information by a resolution of the Senate or the House of Representatives or, in the case of a joint committee (other than the joint committee specified in paragraph (1)) by concurrent resolution, the Secretary shall furnish such committee, or a duly authorized and designated subcommittee thereof, sitting in closed executive session, with any return or return information which such resolution authorizes the committee or subcommittee to inspect. Any resolution described in this paragraph shall specify the purpose for which the return or return information is to be furnished and that such information cannot reasonably be obtained from any other source.

    What is the purpose?

    whembly (c30c83)

  74. 76. Close, but still short. Congress could demand from the IRS returns, if congress suspects the IRS is not faithfully following the law. The predicate is oversight of the IRS.

    So now back the latest court ruling for President Trumps accounting records for 8 years. IRS oversight? Why accounting records? What legislative purpose? Why President Trump specifically? This is all very stinky
    So explain Oversight? Legislative purpose? Crime?

    iowan2 (9c8856)

  75. Oh this law needs to change…

    Prepare for tax return wars:

    (g)Disclosure to President and certain other persons
    (1)In general
    Upon written request by the President, signed by him personally, the Secretary shall furnish to the President, or to such employee or employees of the White House Office as the President may designate by name in such request, a return or return information with respect to any taxpayer named in such request. Any such request shall state—
    (A)the name and address of the taxpayer whose return or return information is to be disclosed,
    (B)the kind of return or return information which is to be disclosed,
    (C)the taxable period or periods covered by such return or return information, and
    (D)the specific reason why the inspection or disclosure is requested.

    Holy. Crap.

    Do you see any prohibition that prevents the POTUS from disclosing anyone’s tax returns here?

    Would you put it past Trump that if Democrats prevail and publicize his tax returns (even though Congress is explicitedly prohibited from doing so) that he’d retaliate and disclose prominent Democrat’s tax returns?

    Nancy Pelosi?

    o.O

    whembly (c30c83)

  76. “Congress has the authority to conduct investigations “in aid of its legislative function.” That authority can extend to investigations for the purpose of deciding whether legislation is appropriate, to information gathering on matters of national importance, to oversight of federal departments and executive agencies. As a result, a congressional committee has broad discretion regarding both the scope of its investigation and the relevance of the information it requests.

    Although congressional authority to investigate is broad, it is not unlimited. Because Congress’s authority to investigate is tied to its authority to legislate, limits on congressional investigations are necessarily linked to the limits on Congress’s constitutional authority. For example, Congress has no general authority to investigate the purely private affair of an ordinary citizen.

    The doctrine of separation of powers also places limits on congressional authority to investigate. Congress cannot, under the guise of an investigation, usurp the power of another branch of government. It cannot investigate matters where the means of redress is purely judicial. Nor can Congress investigate matters committed to the President’s discretion. For example, Congress could not undertake an investigation to determine an individual’s entitlement to a pardon because the Constitution granted the pardon power to the President, not Congress.

    While Congress can investigate conduct that may be criminal, Congress itself lacks the authority to bring criminal charges or otherwise initiate a criminal prosecution. If a congressional investigation uncovers evidence of criminal activity, however, Congress may refer the matter to the Department of Justice for investigation and, potentially, prosecution. Sometimes, the DOJ investigation predates the congressional investigation. No matter which branch of government moves first to investigate, however, the end result is that a congressional investigation often will run parallel to a criminal investigation. As a result, evidence developed in a congressional investigation might be used by the DOJ in its criminal investigation or in a prosecution.”

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  77. Actually, I take that back. POTUS must keep it confidential per section a) of that statute.

    Congress, however, could technically publicaly disclose anything on the House floor… right?

    whembly (c30c83)

  78. “What’s that bolded? This here says that the tax returns cannot be ID’ed. Right?”

    Did you read the remainder of the sentence?

    Here’s the text of the house suit: https://www.bloomberglaw.com/public/desktop/document/COMMITTEEONWAYSANDMEANSUNITEDSTATESHOUSEOFREPRESENTATIVESvUNITEDS?1562082276

    They cite 6103(f) which I copied above.

    “What is the purpose?”

    It’s in the above document:

    The Committee is investigating the IRS’s administration of various tax laws and policies relating to Presidential tax returns and tax law compliance by President Trump, including whether the IRS’s self-imposed policy of annually auditing the returns of sitting 3 Presidents is working properly, even though it has not been updated in decades. Indeed, President Trump himself has repeatedly questioned the integrity of the process by which the IRS audits his tax returns, complaining that his returns are under “continuous audit” and that the IRS’s policy of annually auditing Presidential returns is “extremely unfair.” The President has also publicly theorized that the IRS audits him because of his assertedly strong Christian faith.

    Lol @ that last sentence.

    Davethulhu (fab944)

  79. Just to be clear, we’re talking the Democrats in Congress, not “Congress”. The D’s hold a relatively slim majority: 235 to 197. 20 vote cushion. The Difference between the R’s and the D’s is the D’s have no “Mavericks”. They vote like robots in lockstep. All 235 of them. Of course, the Fake “Moderates” then go back home and talk about how conservative/moderate they are. The R’s always have about 20-30 traitors who ALWAYS will wimp out, backstab, flake out, or generally not support the leadership on any issue that is controversial.

    rcocean (1a839e)

  80. well we know who’s the source, now we see how people at the highest ranks of this security establishment can’t tell pro Ukrainians, like fuks from pro Russians like mr. z, persist In the notion that a dismissed employee of sberbank is an enemy agent, etc etc.

    narciso (d1f714)

  81. #35

    so judge rao, identifies that the congress is not requesting records under impeachment power,”

    Judge Rao’s opinion is nonsense. Congress can request the records for any reason at all.

    Davethulhu (1ebe81) — 10/11/2019 @ 10:57 a

    A) under your logic, the congressional investigative committee can obtain your tax returns for no reason
    B) by statute, only the House ways and means committee and the Senate finance committee can obtain the returns, and then only for legislative purposes, and then only the reps & Senators on those committees can view the returns, the aides and Staff are barred from seeing the returns and the reps & senators are barred from disclosing any of the info by statute.

    joe (debac0)

  82. A) under your logic, the congressional investigative committee can obtain your tax returns for no reason

    That’s BS. Can you please explain his point of view in a way that he would recognize as his view?

    Trump made a lot of complaints that the IRS’s audits of Trump are unlawful. That’s the reason given for the oversight. Trump should have understood when he complains he is being religiously persecuted, that justifies oversight.

    Dustin (6d7686)

  83. Dustin, these oversight committees don’t do a great job keeping things confidential… and actively cherry pick to build preferred narratives.

    Democrats isn’t doing this as a good faith effort to try to address Trump’s concern over IRS audits.

    This is about finding damaging information to hurt Trump’s electoral efforts.

    This is toxic to politic and literally feeds the “Witch Hunt” narratives that Trump employs.

    Additionally it sets a dangerous precedent.

    whembly (c30c83)

  84. Report:

    Arrested Giuliani associate attended Trump’s invite-only 2016 election night party

    Lev Parnas, a now-arrested associate of Trump lawyer Rudy Giuliani, attended President Trump’s 2016 invite-only election night party according to a report from a French newspaper about the event. 

    Trump is seeking to distance himself from Parnas and fellow arrested associate Igor Fruman, and told reporters Thursday “I don’t know those gentlemen.” 

    DRJ (15874d)

  85. Here is the original report (in French) published November 8, 2016.

    DRJ (15874d)

  86. Dustin, these oversight committees don’t do a great job keeping things confidential… and actively cherry pick to build preferred narratives.

    Democrats isn’t doing this as a good faith effort to try to address Trump’s concern over IRS audits.

    This is about finding damaging information to hurt Trump’s electoral efforts.

    This is toxic to politic and literally feeds the “Witch Hunt” narratives that Trump employs.

    Additionally it sets a dangerous precedent.

    whembly (c30c83) — 10/11/2019 @ 5:02 pm

    You make a 100% fair point, Whembley.

    There is no reason for either party to trust the other to be doing anything in good faith, or to maintain any confidence whatsoever.

    But there was more than ‘no reason’ provided. Trump actually provided the reason for these audits to be a matter of oversight, when he claimed they were religious persecution.

    I have to admit, part of this is that Trump said he would happily share these returns, and he was just lying to us. He campaigned on all these promises that he never wanted to keep, that the other candidates simply would not emulate. Trump is especially dishonest. It is interesting watching him fight so hard to not do something he promised the country he would do happily.

    Dustin (6d7686)

  87. Additionally it sets a dangerous precedent.

    Every president in the last 50 years has released their tax returns.

    Dave (1bb933)

  88. Every *other president …

    Dave (1bb933)

  89. And? It’s not a requirement.

    whembly (c30c83)

  90. “Every president in the last 50 years has released their tax returns.”
    Dave (1bb933) — 10/11/2019 @ 5:11 pm

    Every impeachment in the last 200 years has had a House vote before starting an impeachment inquiry.

    Munroe (53beca)

  91. And? It’s not a requirement.

    And it doesn’t strike you as a “dangerous precedent” at all that a president can conceal their financial dealings – many of them involving shady and/or foreign actors – from the voters?

    Even the Clintons (both of them) were willing to submit to this scrutiny.

    But while professing how very, very much he wishes he could release them, Trump makes up transparently bogus excuses for refusing to do so, and that doesn’t concern you in the least?

    Dave (1bb933)

  92. And? It’s not a requirement.

    whembly

    But politicians can lawfully look at these tax returns. Judge Rao is not correct that the only mechanism for looking at these returns is impeachment. Trump said there’s unlawful activity in the audits, when he said the IRS was infringing on his freedom of religion. I don’t know why he says these things. I cannot imagine it’s fun being his lawyer. But that’s why Rao is the dissenting opinion.

    I’m not saying I like Joe Biden or that the democrats are going to give us a sober, honest analysis, or that if they find something juicy, they won’t leak it, and if they don’t find something juicy, they won’t lie.

    There’s the rub. On some level, every conservative has to get at least a little satisfaction out of how obnoxious Trump is to this notion of going along with the corrupt partisan system. the reason I can’t get into it is that Trump is actually more corrupt, and yeah, I think he’s very racist, and he also is getting our allies killed. It’s not worth it, and it’s not a tough call.

    Dustin (6d7686)

  93. Every impeachment in the last 200 years has had a House vote before starting an impeachment inquiry.

    Munroe (53beca) — 10/11/2019 @ 5:28 pm

    Though it doesn’t specifically say this in the constitution, I think you’re right. it’s common sense that the house exercises its power through votes. There’s no other way for members to be accountable. They need to vote on this ASAP. I honestly think we have enough information to make a decision in the Senate too. If Trump skates, he skates, but I don’t think months of tearing the nation further apart will help inform the decision. And if I disapprove of what my congressman or senators do, I will vote how I want, and you the same. Enough of the drama, and it’s time for them to just vote on this.

    Dustin (6d7686)

  94. Every impeachment in the last 200 years has had a House vote before starting an impeachment inquiry.

    Because it was necessary to grant subpoena power.

    When they were in charge, the Republicans changed the rules so it isn’t necessary anymore.

    As with Harry Reid’s move against the filibuster on judges, short-sighted planning.

    C’est la vie.

    Dave (1bb933)

  95. “Every impeachment in the last 200 years has had a House vote before starting an impeachment inquiry.”

    There’s no constitutional requirement and no house rule requiring a vote.

    Davethulhu (fe4242)

  96. The indictment yesterday mentioned “Foreign National 1″ and I wondered if that person was Dymtro Firtash–the corrupt Ukrainian oligarch who is fighting extradition from Austria to the US–that maybe he was involved in this conspiracy. But on further checking, turns out that Firtash is Ukrainian and “Foreign National 1″ is Russian, so I mentally filed Firtash away.
    But it wasn’t filed away for long. As it turns out, Firtash was involved with Parnas and Fruman.

    Lev Parnas, one of the two associates of Trump lawyer Rudy Giuliani, served as a translator for lawyers representing oligarch Dmytro Firtash. Parnas was arrested on Thursday along with the other Florida businessman, Igor Fruman, on unrelated charges that included illegally funneling $325,000 to a political action committee supporting pro-Trump candidates.
    Both men had worked in an unspecified capacity for Firtash before Parnas joined the Ukrainian’s legal team, according to a person familiar with the Florida men’s business dealings with Firtash.
    The Floridians’ connection to indicted oligarch Firtash injects an intriguing new character into the rapidly unfolding drama surrounding the effort to impeach Trump.

    To fill out the picture on Firtash a little more…
    ▪ Firtash is connected to Russian organized crime, so maybe he’s connected to “Foreign National 1″ in that capacity. I’m guessing we’ll find out soon.
    ▪ Bloomberg described Firtash as “Putin’s handpicked surrogate” in the Ukrainian natural gas industry.
    ▪ Firtash’s current attorneys in the bribery/extradition case are Joe DiGenova and Victoria Toensing, who are both in the bag for Trump and worked (or are working) “off the books” for Giuliani.
    ▪ Firtash was a business associate of the corrupt liar, Paul Manafort, and part of the reason for bringing Firtash to the US was to see if they could learn “new revelations” about the one-degree-removed agent for Putin.
    ▪ Not long after DiGenova/Toensing came on board, Firtash became involved in Giuliani’s “corruption investigation” on Biden when his lawyers enlisted Viktor Shokin–the fired corrupt Ukrainian chief prosecutor (fired thanks to Biden)–to write out a “witness statement”. Shokin served as a character witness for Firtash and claimed that he actually was investigating Burisma Holdings and Hunter Biden before he was sacked, despite all the countervailing evidence.
    ▪ The person who uploaded the “witness statement” is none other than John Solomon, the former opinion columnist at The Hill. Mr. Shokin gave “this statement orally in Russian” (it figures), so I assume it was translated to German for the Austrian court, and somebody translated it to English for Mr. Solomon.
    ▪ John Solomon is in the bag for Firtash, claiming there’s no case against Firtash, despite the ruling from the Austrian court that permitted extradition. I suspect that Solomon’s sources are Parnas and DiGenova/Toensing. Giuliani praised this bit of “reporting” from Mr. Solomon.
    ▪ In the infamous call between Trump and Zelensky, I’m pretty sure Trump was talking about Shokin, praising him as “very good” and “very fair”.
    All these connections stink to high heaven, and it should be clear to anyone that whatever stories these parties are selling is a big furtid pile of lies and deception. As I see it, they’re all working for Putin’s interests and against Ukraine’s, Trump and Giuliani not excepted.

    Paul Montagu (00daa1)

  97. There’s no constitutional requirement and no house rule requiring a vote.

    But it is an official talking point, and they’re required to keep repeating it until (by some magical process of transmuting fecal matter into fool’s gold, which occurs only in TrumpWorld) they start to believe it’s actually true.

    Dave (1bb933)

  98. Call it the the Trump-Giuliani-Firtash-DiGenova-Toensing-Shokin-Solomon-Parnas-Fruman Connection.

    Paul Montagu (00daa1)

  99. @101. And as “I” see it:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xiKrWUoTq4s

    “Ain’t nuttin’ gonna happen…” – ‘Quincy Maddox’

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  100. 102… yes, and don’t look at the ‘98 timeline re: Clinton that details how it’s done in reality.

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  101. “There’s no constitutional requirement and no house rule requiring a vote.”

    Same goes for unofficial subpoenas and any cooperation with the Clown Show.

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  102. They are following the model of the johnson impeachment.

    narciso (d1f714)

  103. More 105… https://www.famous-trials.com/clinton/881-chronology

    C’mon ICIG report! C’mon Durham report! Democrats will be schiffing their pants.

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  104. But it is an official talking point, and they’re required to keep repeating it until (by some magical process of transmuting fecal matter into fool’s gold, which occurs only in TrumpWorld) they start to believe it’s actually true.

    Dave (1bb933) — 10/11/2019 @ 5:45 pm

    I think it’s pretty plain Pelosi has handled this matter with astonishing incompetence. That has to be a major aspect of history. Trump didn’t just happen. He happened because everyone around power is also terrible.

    Obviously an impeachment vote will happen at some point, so the complaint itself is not a major one, but what is the argument for not having the House vote as a body about something this important? One branch is challenging the entire other branch.

    Dustin (6d7686)

  105. Does ahe really want to dig in the weeds in ukraine, thats a very poisoned well, as apelbaum has pointed out

    narciso (d1f714)

  106. Okay, that SNL skit was funny, and you and Quincy are probably right, DC.
    Oh, and there is no constitutional requirement requiring a vote for an impeachment inquiry, and the House rules encourage a vote but don’t require it (Erickson links to the actual House rules).

    Paul Montagu (00daa1)

  107. “Lev and Igor. Who hangs around guys like that in the middle of a Russia investigation? What President, in his right mind, would let them get close to him?”

    Just about every one since 1991, to be quite honest. Shady Russians, Jews, and Russian Jews using the Ukraine as a go-between for their various post Communist resource extraction schemes and Beltway dealings and influence peddling operations have been quite common in DC since the fall of the Berlin Wall. I’m glad to see that Rudy was able to draw them out and glad to see Trump going after corrupt conspirators on both sides of the aisle. (And I’d be VERY glad to see ‘Soviet-born’ applied as an epithet to a whole lot more people on the Democrat side of the commentariat, but Communist superfans aren’t likely to do that unless they can use it to get anti-Communists to engage in activities against their own interests.)

    It’s highly likely that these people, like most Ukrainians with money and Washington connections, also now or have previously ‘belonged to intelligence,’ much as Epstein did. Although his interest in Ukraine was probably more the human trafficking angle, which is one that strikes me as something that really should get more attention by the state media.

    More to the point, it looks like the best you can hope for in Ukraine is getting the various oligarchs on your side, much like the best you can hope for in Iraq and other Middle Eastern countries is either partition or an iron-fisted secular dictatorship to keep the various tribes from slaughtering each other as regularly as Kurds and Turks. We’ll never know if their new gas venture will be productive enough to provide the Ukraine with the necessary Biden family sinecures that Burisma did now, at any rate.

    Eldraine (13f42c)

  108. One branch is challenging the entire other branch.

    That’s Trump’s narrative, and wholly false.

    In fact, they are challenging the corruption of one man, who does not personify the state, or even the executive branch.

    Dave (1bb933)

  109. Same goes for unofficial subpoenas and any cooperation with the Clown Show.

    There is no such thing as an unofficial subpoena. If a subpoena exists, it is by definition official.


    C’mon ICIG report! C’mon Durham report! Democrats will be schiffing their pants.

    Much more likely is that Trumpniks will howl when the ICIG and Durham make it plain that there actually was a “there” there.

    Kishnevi (54fe57)

  110. That’s Trump’s narrative, and wholly false.

    In fact, they are challenging the corruption of one man, who does not personify the state, or even the executive branch.

    Dave (1bb933) — 10/11/2019 @ 6:30 pm

    Well I certainly didn’t get it from him. I really don’t see why the house can’t vote on this. They know, by now, whether the impeachment should happen. Obviously the vote would say ‘yes’. There is no chance that isn’t their outcome if they vote today.

    The executive branch is vested in Trump. Sure, there are conflicting interests in there, but it’s a really big deal to be a corrupt president or to say there is one. Why no vote? Politics.

    Dustin (6d7686)

  111. They have a full slate of important witnesses testifying next week. Several relevant henchmen of the president and his consigliere were just rounded up yesterday.

    Moving expeditiously, but not precipitously, seems like a good idea to me.

    It goes without saying that there are political calculations involved (on both sides).

    Dave (1bb933)

  112. Breaking:
    Giuliani Is Said to Be Under Investigation for Ukraine Work
    Federal prosecutors in Manhattan are investigating whether President Trump’s personal lawyer Rudolph W. Giuliani broke lobbying laws in his dealings in Ukraine, according to two people familiar with the inquiry.

    The investigators are examining Mr. Giuliani’s efforts to undermine the American ambassador to Ukraine, Marie L. Yovanovitch, one of the people said. She was recalled in the spring as part of Mr. Trump’s broader campaign to pressure Ukraine into helping his political prospects.

    The investigation into Mr. Giuliani is tied to the case against two of his associates who were arrested this week on campaign finance-related charges, the people familiar with the inquiry said. The associates were charged with funneling illegal contributions to a congressman whose help they sought in removing Ms. Yovanovitch.

    Rip Murdock (ad4321)

  113. More:

    It is also a stark turn for Mr. Giuliani, who now finds himself under scrutiny from the same United States attorney’s office he led in the 1980s, when he first rose to prominence as a tough-on-crime prosecutor and later ascended to two terms as mayor of New York.

    You just knew this was the other shoe to drop after Mutt and Jeff were arrested yesterday. Karma is a bitch.

    Rip Murdock (ad4321)

  114. Firtash the guy who hired lanny davis & muchael chertoff

    narciso (d1f714)

  115. I really don’t see why the house can’t vote on this.

    I’m leaning slightly in favor of a vote for an impeachment inquiry. It’s not necessary legally or constitutionally, so it would be a political vote, but I think there’s value in putting every single member of the House on record, just like I believe that every member of Congress should vote on Trump’s impeachment or removal.

    Paul Montagu (00daa1)

  116. The judge quotes a memorandum by the chairman of the House Oversight Committee, Elijah Cummings, a major figure in Congress. The memo, Judge Rao noted, said the committee was investigating “whether the President may have engaged in illegal conduct” and notes that this information would inform “its review of multiple laws and legislative proposals under our jurisdiction.”

    Notice anything amiss with Cummings reasoning? Hint, I mentioned it up thread.
    The Judge continues:

    What the judge sees in that is the committee announcing “two distinct investigations” — “one to explore allegations of illegal conduct by the President; and another to review multiple laws and legislative proposals within the Committee’s jurisdiction. Yet, she notes, the committee “justifies both inquiries under the legislative power,” and, she adds, the court’s majority accepts that framework.
    So Cummings boxed himself in. He insinuates there “may be” illegal activities, but he knows congress does not have power to investigate and prosecute crime, and is forced to use legislative purpose, his only power, but fails to specify exactly what legislative change he is investigating

    She, however, does not. Congress’s legislative powers, she notes, are “limited and enumerated.” In America, “legislative power does not include the exercise of judicial power to determine the guilt or innocence of individuals.”

    iowan2 (9c8856)

  117. After the last al capones vault stunt, re deutsch bank, they should have learned something.

    narciso (d1f714)

  118. About that “unnamed Ukrainian official” in yesterday’s indictment.

    The unnamed Ukrainian official referenced in a federal indictment as directing a plot to oust the then-U.S. ambassador is Ukraine’s former chief prosecutor Yuriy Lutsenko, according to a U.S. official familiar with the events.
    According to the source, Lutsenko is the Ukrainian official who prosecutors say urged two associates of Rudy Giuliani to push for the removal of Marie Yovanovitch, the former U.S. ambassador to Ukraine who was forced out in May.

    This was the same Lutsenko who lied to John Solomon about Obama keeping a “do not prosecute” list, a lie so pitiful that he had to recant.

    Paul Montagu (00daa1)

  119. I don’t know what’s worse, Trump corruptly investigating his political rivals or being played by two bit Ukrainians. The narrative isn’t Biden trying to get a prosecutor fired, but the Prosecutor (Lutsenko) getting the ambassador fired. Rereading the July 25th call with the information from the indictment, it’s clear that Trump just fell for everything hook line and sinker. Again, Trump’s achilles heal is he’s sucker for yes men and flattery.

    tla (7ab14a)

  120. being played by two bit Ukrainians.

    I imagine Trump actually worked with a ton of bad guys. And he kept them in line the way bad guys do. That will get eye rolls from the Trump fans who are so insanely naive about Trump who just literally killed his friends in Syria by promising them safety and betraying them.

    When you work with enough bad guys, you get caught because bad guys are usually dumb.

    What’s interesting is that everyone already knows Biden lacks personal character. Trump didn’t actually have any need, politically, to do this, except if he needed to steer the democrat primary a little. Which, I’ll admit, he seems to have succeeded at.

    Dustin (6d7686)

  121. 117… how’re they doing with their 1619 Project, Nip?

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  122. “Much more likely is that Trumpniks will howl when the ICIG and Durham make it plain that there actually was a “there” there.”

    I have $50 to wager that says you are wrong.

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  123. I think the Chinese are realizing it’ll be Trump in November-2020, as well.

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  124. Tell you the story of edwin wilson, they said he was a lone wolf, he went and gave c4 to kadaffi, which ended up in the hands of the brigatte baader et al, hired compang men to kill libyan dissidents, was sentencex in 1983,

    narciso (d1f714)

  125. Twenty years later, we discover it was done on the total say so of the compamy, oflh the prosecutor went to work for bcci

    narciso (d1f714)

  126. it’ll be Trump in November-2020,

    Wow! Most Americans are debating whether or not he should be removed from office, not whether they will vote for him.

    Let’s bet on it. Cash upfront because, let’s be honest, you aren’t.

    Dustin (6d7686)

  127. I do fault rudy for having created this culture of vultures like comey, fitzgerald spitzer,bhaara, now khuzaimi was sec via the deutsch bank, he didnt nab any of the major wall street players

    narciso (d1f714)

  128. Think on this warren o’rourke want to pull the tax exemptions of churches, return us to the days when the sistera of the poor and hobby lobby were hanging fron a thread, is that evil i think so.

    narciso (d1f714)

  129. warren o’rourke want to pull the tax exemptions of churches

    Why is there a tax exemption on universities and churches anyway? Just curious. I wonder if there should be some kind of exemption to a certain level only.

    Dustin (6d7686)

  130. Sounds like they are doing bidens orders we saw how it worked in ukraine, how burisma was unacathed for 2-3 years.

    narciso (d1f714)

  131. Judgment in Cases of Impeachment shall not extend further than to removal from Office, and disqualification to hold and enjoy any Office of honor, Trust or Profit under the United States: but the Party convicted shall nevertheless be liable and subject to Indictment, Trial, Judgment and Punishment, according to Law. — Article I, Section

    Please note that it’s “disqualification to hold and enjoy *any* Office of honor, Trust or Profit under the United States” and not any *future* Office etc.

    The Congress shall have power to declare the punishment of treason, but no attainder of treason shall work corruption of blood, or forfeiture except during the life of the person attainted. — Article III, Section 3.

    Think about it.

    nk (dbc370)

  132. This is the same congress that has how many settlements and ndas

    narciso (d1f714)

  133. “The judge quotes a memorandum by the chairman of the House Oversight Committee, Elijah Cummings, a major figure in Congress”

    Elijah Cummings is not a member of the Ways and Means Committee, which are the ones who requested the tax returns.

    Davethulhu (fe4242)

  134. $50 kishnevi… are you up for it?

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  135. Can you blame them, every single time they think they have him, he slips away. The great mueller could not get it done, this peanut gallery of corrupt pols are going to.

    narciso (d1f714)

  136. But the stakes are very serious, if an election can be voided so easily, katy bar the door. We know what the opposite party is threatening weve seen the consequences just today in california

    narciso (d1f714)

  137. $50 sounds good.

    Dustin (6d7686)

  138. 141… it would be much funnier if it weren’t so tedious.

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  139. Like coyote with the acme kits galore.

    narciso (d1f714)

  140. Like coyote with the acme kits galore.

    narciso (d1f714) — 10/11/2019 @ 9:49 pm

    So in your book, Trump has dodged all these scandals and everyone knows he’s quite honest and clean, and it’s his accusers who are really embarrassed. That’s really fascinating. Me, I thought he was dead to rights caught and we were just waiting for the house to care enough to go ahead and impeach him. Which most Americans think they should. Imagine if your conspiracy was more than half the country… Trump really is the ultimate victim in this scenario!

    Dustin (6d7686)

  141. As usual you miss what he said, if you’re going to demand documents call a formal imquiry? He cant be any clearer if he stapled the answer to you. They have to answer to tom steyer anywaysm

    narciso (d1f714)

  142. if an election can be voided so easily

    No election is being “voided”. The person elected is being removed from office for corruptly covering up the intervention of a foreign spy agency on his behalf in the one election, and then getting caught red-handed trying to coerce another foreign government to do the same in another.

    Dave (1bb933)

  143. Dont bogart that joint my friend. Never trumpers are stoned out of this world.

    mg (8cbc69)

  144. How much was christopher steele payed by which parties and dan jones

    narciso (d1f714)

  145. Steele who worked for deripasha as did waldman, who was a go between with the russian foreign ministry.

    narciso (d1f714)

  146. and mark warner, just like glenn simpson arrangement with Schiff,

    narciso (d1f714)

  147. President Trump seems to lie about everything and to everyone, even when he doesn’t need to lie, and apparently has done this his entire adult life. Everyone lies now and then but Trump’s lies are often illogical and easily disproved which suggests he is a pathological liar who lies to himself and may even believe his lies.

    Narcissists are often pathological liars. Trump’s lies are the types commonly told by classic narcissists who are more willing to use other people and tolerate hurting others:

    Without empathy, narcissists can be selfish, hurtful, and cold when it doesn’t serve them to be charming or cooperative. To them relationships are transactional. Rather than respond to feelings, they’re interested in getting their needs met―sometimes, even if it means exploiting others, cheating, lying, or breaking the law. Although they may feel excitement and passion in the early stages of a relationship, this is not love, but lust. They’re known for their game-playing. Sacrificing for a loved one isn’t in their playbook. Their lack of empathy also inures them to the pain that they cause others, while their cognitive, emotional intelligence gives them an edge in manipulating and exploiting others to get their needs met.

    If he is a narcissist, he will misuse the great power he holds.

    DRJ (15874d)

  148. no that was the other guy, referred to himself 47 times, would talk about himself at funerals, but it’s good you’re being as responsible as peter singer,

    https://thehill.com/opinion/campaign/465520-he-who-must-not-be-named-how-hunter-biden-became-a-conversation-stopper

    narciso (d1f714)

  149. All Twitter users are afflicted with narcissism.

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  150. In fact, Everyone’s a Narcissist.
    Research by Dr Larry Richard J.D. reveals that the top six personality types found in lawyers are ISTJ (17.8%), ESTJ (10.3%), INTJ (13.1%), ENTP (9.7%), INTP (9.4%) and ENTJ (9.0%); the least common type in lawyers is ESFP at just 0.5%.

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  151. What’s the Just-Another-Piece-Of-New-York-Sewer-Flotsam-Who’d-Sell-His-Mother-For-A-Lollipop personality type?

    nk (dbc370)

  152. What’s Giuliani’s son doing these days?

    nk (dbc370)

  153. Eliot spitzer, i wouldnt know,

    narciso (d1f714)

  154. 157… Michael Cohen??? Who knows, but it better be an amenable type given his circumstances…

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  155. #86 A

    ) under your logic, the congressional investigative committee can obtain your tax returns for no reason

    That’s BS. Can you please explain his point of view in a way that he would recognize as his view?

    he said that congress can get “the records for no reason at all”

    joe (debac0)

  156. No link, Haiku? I bet you got that here. Try this:

    ISTJs are the most common personality type of lawyers, but that is probably more of a function of their overall prevalence in the general population (12 – 16%) than of being specially drawn to law, according to Richard.

    The remarkable finding of his study, Richard told me, is “that one type in particular—INTJ—occurs with 5 times greater frequency in lawyers than it does in the general population (that’s for men and women combined). And, there are 7 times as many INTJ women in law as there are women INTJ’s in the general population.”

    So what is it about INTJs? Well, Richard describes them as “conceptual, analytical, ambitious, curious, and driven, and they are the only one of the 16 types for whom an elevated IQ has been statistically correlated. That’s right—INTJ’s are slightly more intelligent as a type than individuals who prefer any of the other 15 types.”

    DRJ (15874d)

  157. So what is it about INTJs?

    aka “The Scientist”

    That’s right—INTJ’s are slightly more intelligent as a type than individuals who prefer any of the other 15 types.

    Hmm.

    Dave (1bb933)

  158. Yes, DRJ, didn’t say it was a bad thing. It was very interesting and all good.

    Colonel Haiku (111e13)

  159. Combining @145 with @162:

    https://youtu.be/YIPr23xyoZg

    Munroe (d6175a)

  160. Think the best of people. Be better, not bitter…

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xLy2SaSQAtA

    Colonel Haiku (111e13)

  161. I don’t think it’s very fair to compare “Stable Genius, Donald Trump” to “Wile E. Coyote, Genius”, Munroe.

    The coyote was actually pretty intelligent for one his kind. And he wasn’t evil, immoral or corrupt. Just hungry.

    Dave (1bb933)

  162. 162… and you’d win the bet with that first link.

    Colonel Haiku (111e13)

  163. Yes, DRJ, didn’t say it was a bad thing.

    You said everyone is a narcissist. Does that mean you think being a narcissist is a good thing? Maybe you are talking about healthy self-esteem but I clearly wasn’t talking about that.

    DRJ (15874d)

  164. That was the header of one of the sections in the first link, DRJ, and I agree… just about everyone has at least a bit of narcissism in them.

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  165. just about everyone has at least a bit of narcissism in them.

    .. whereas few people have it in the extreme measure of Donald Trump. Few would turn a eulogy to their father into a paean to themselves, or openly treat other people’s tragedies or solemn observances into occasions to say “look how people love me!” Trump does that sort of thing routinely, and it shocks a normal conscience, while others trot out the all-purpose defense: “That’s just Trump being Trump!” (Why shouldn’t that excuse work for everyone else too?)

    It’s bizarre how so many people firmly close their eyes to the most blazingly obvious traits of Donald Trump: His extraordinary self-worship; his refusal to admit any fault or error in himself; his overtly self-serving notions of right and wrong; his lack of any concept of truth aside from what meets his immediate needs; his lack of empathy for other human beings; etc.

    Psychiatrists have said it’s rare to see such a clear example of narcissistic sociopathy so prominently on display, and some have been using videotapes of Trump as teaching tools: “This is what a sociopathic narcissistic sounds like.”

    Radegunda (d2a4ef)

  166. I provided that link because you quoted from it but didn’t provide the link, Haiku. You seem to think it is relevant but, if so, then here is its conclusion:

    I’ve read that healthy or good narcissism operates from a place of goodwill towards others whereas unhealthy or bad narcissism operates from a place of ill will. That seems like as good a differentiation as any. We can all be jerks at times: fishing for compliments, being completely preoccupied with our own problems, envying others for what we lack, acting in a completely self-serving manner and protecting our own egos at the expense of someone else. Then we come back to our baseline of being a decent human being and start considering the wants and needs of others.

    True narcissists can not do that. There’s no real empathy dial for them to turn up. They can not, or will not, be self-reflective to look beyond their own blind spots. They blame others and use them to boost their power. So, while we’re all narcissists, we’re not all one of those narcissists. Where the tipping point is, is up to you.

    I want to think the best of people so I assume your tipping point is in a different place than mine. I think Trump is a pathological liar and has a narcissistic personalty — not because I want to think ill of him but because of his clear, consistent, insensitive, self-aggrandizing behavior.

    “Be better not bitter” doesn’t mean being blind.

    DRJ (15874d)

  167. 169, they, Overland Park and Shawnee Mission are the NOVA of the Sunflower State.

    urbanleftbehind (3481ed)

  168. From what I can find, Burisma produces natural gas within Ukraine. Ukraine is still a net importer of natural gas, with the bulk of that coming from rival power Russia.
    The two Florida men from Ukraine (a double whammy if there ever was one) Igor and Lev proposed to sell 100 tankers of US natural gas to Naftogaz which is the nationalized gas company of Ukraine.
    So they were sort of in a competing position, but not directly. Their direct competition would have been with imported Russian gas and others looking to import US natural gas.
    Given the fact the US trade people have been pushing US natural gas to Europe to wean Europe off of Russian gas and as a tool to hurt Putin economically, it’s entirely plausible that the US would encourage entrepreneurs to try to make deals with Ukraine for US liquified gas.

    Laugh all you want, but so far the competition link with Burisma is weak. Burisma should be able to produce gas from within Ukraine at a cheaper price than US gas can be produced and shipped. The problem is demand is higher than companies like Burisma are able to supply. If it goes this route, Burisma should be able to import gas from Russia at a cheaper price, and should also be able to import from the US cheaper as well due to Burisma’s existing infrastructure, distribution chain and economies of scale.
    Finally, it would be in the best interest of Naftogaz Ukraine to be friendly toward developing sources that are not Burisma or Russian, if only to foster future competition and lower prices…

    And yes, Ukraine is rife with corruption so if the deal had gone through, I am sure it would have been at least as dirty as the usual Ukraine transaction, but I don’t know that for sure. I do know it is Ukraine so….

    steveg (354706)

  169. Yes its terrible, better let them rely on russian sourced natural gas, its like whe dubai spent all that money financing films discouraging fracking

    narciso (d1f714)

  170. The accusation is that the two used shell companies to launder Russian money into the campaign coffers of a U.S. Congressman.

    Which means it was NOT a natural gas company.

    Lost in the stories about the indictment is a significant fact: Parnas and Fruman were pursuing a liquefied gas venture in Ukraine, and thus could have benefited financially from an investigation of Burisma, Ukraine’s largest natural gas company.

    It cannot be both a natural gas company that never did any business and an empty shell. The illegality revolves around the fact that the money to contribute to the PAC did not come from within the United States.

    The question is, why was the shell a natutal gas company? Probably to take advantage of possible political influence. They also wanted to get their own people on the board of the government natural gas company in Ukraine. Who they were really working for unclear. They were not
    competitors
    For all we know they could be working for the owner of Burisma. It probably wasn;t
    just themselves. The indictment ties them to some Ukrainian politician, but that could be Russia really Russia.

    . Another interesting tidbit about these folks and Giuliani concerns their parallel and totally unrelated impending trips to Vienna. The feds had not planned to arrest Parnas and Fruman this early, but they had one-way tickets to Frankfurt, Germany, and were in the airport when taken into custody. </blockquote. They were supposed to testify before Congressional committees a the end of last week. Instead they planned to flee the country, if the news stotieesare correct. The meeting with Giuliani was probably part of their cover story that they were staying here.

    Sammy Finkelman (1d7dd8)

  171. 134. Dustin (6d7686) — 10/11/2019 @ 8:38 pm

    Why is there a tax exemption on universities and churches anyway? Just curious.

    On the assumption that sort of thing is apublic good. They are tax exempt from most taxes s long as they are non-profit. Of course, in the non-profit world, management can get a lot of money. A business owned by anon-profit is usally taxed.

    Sammy Finkelman (1d7dd8)


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