Patterico's Pontifications

10/2/2019

Hmmmmm: Rudy Giuliani’s Clients Would Benefit Financially from the Investigation He Wants Ukraine to Restart

Filed under: General — Patterico @ 8:01 am



I know Trump superfans are all very upset about the total corruption of Hunter Biden, even though 99.9% of them could not begin to tell you what Burisma’s alleged crimes were, much less Hunter Biden’s alleged role in those crimes. (Hint: the Ukrainian crime under investigation was not having a $50,000 a month job, which is literally the only thing Trump partisans know about Burisma or Hunter Biden. It has to do with potential corruption by founder Mykola Zlochevsky, including tax evasion, money laundering, and misconduct in obtaining licenses for the company while serving as deputy secretary of Ukraine’s National Security and Defense Council. But you knew that.)

It’s good to see that Trump superfans are totally concerned about people with ties to the U.S. government using those ties to further their personal interests, or the interests of people they represent. That’s how I know Trump superfans will totally be Very Concerned about this:

The hunt by President Trump’s attorney Rudolph W. Giuliani for material in Ukraine damaging to Democrats has put a spotlight on business ties he has had in the former Soviet republic for at least a decade, work that has introduced him to high-level Ukrainian financial and political circles.

Giuliani has said he has been working for free solely to benefit his client, Trump, as he has sought information from Ukrainian officials — an effort that has spurred a House impeachment inquiry into whether the president abused his power.

However, House investigators are now seeking records about Giuliani’s past clientele in Ukraine, including Pavel Fuks, a wealthy developer who financed consulting work Giuliani did in 2017 for the city of Kharkiv. That same year, according to court filings, Fuks said he was banned from entering the United States for five years. The documents do not specify why.

House committees have also requested documents and depositions from two of Giuliani’s current clients, Florida-based businessmen who have been pursuing opportunities in Ukraine for a new liquefied natural gas venture.

The men, Lev Parnas and Igor Fruman, have been assisting Giuliani’s push to get Ukrainian officials to investigate former vice president Joe Biden and his son and Giuliani’s claim that Democrats conspired with Ukrainians in the 2016 campaign.

A new liquefied natural gas venture. Hmmmmmmm. Does that sound familiar, Trump superfans?

Oooh! I know. Burisma is a natural gas company. In fact, the largest one in Ukraine.

And Rudy represents their competitors. Competitors who would stand to gain a lot if Burisma were criminally investigated in Ukraine.

Hmmmmmm.

Trump superfans, your mission, should you choose to accept it, is to acknowledge that this appears to be corrupt find transparently unconvincing reasons to say “That’s different” and dig in to defend those reasons no matter how stupid and obviously false they prove to be.

[Cross-posted at The Jury Talks Back.]

187 Responses to “Hmmmmm: Rudy Giuliani’s Clients Would Benefit Financially from the Investigation He Wants Ukraine to Restart”

  1. ‘Course Hunter is JoeyBee’s son; Rudy is merely Trump’s son-of-a-b!tch.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  2. Gee, I wonder if the media will run with this, doing all the investigative legwork, leaving no stone unturned. Maybe that’s the difference.

    Munroe (53beca)

  3. whatabout LBJ killing JFK? Why don’t you care about that? Wake up!

    Dustin (6d7686)

  4. Munroe has an excellent point, the media is extremely mean to his tribe because the media keeps reporting accurately about the insanely dumb things their mascot says and does. It is very disrespectful of them to do that and any time we’re not talking about how mean the media is to his tribe we’re really missing the point. Please don’t confuse this with actual, specific complaints about bad reporting or bias. That might cause you draw distinctions that aren’t centered around the feelings of their tribe. It could also mislead a reader into thinking it was important to base the discussion in facts that aren’t relevant. The relevant facts are if this is good or bad for the prestige of the tribe. That’s it. That’s the metric.

    Please consider correcting your post.
    Possible correct thesis includes; This proves the media is biased. This proves that Rudy has been fighting corruption for years. This proves the Meuller investigation was a witch hunt. This proves Trump is trying to drain the swap. This is fake news created because the writer hates trump. This proves the existence of the deep state. Paying attention to this means is bad for Trump and that the media secretly wants the white genocide.

    If you can’t find a way to make those points feel free to write a counterfactual about how if this were true it would have been on CNN 24/7 for the last week and since it wasn’t it must be fake news.

    this would be easier than what you usually write because you don’t need to worry about logic, facts, or internal consistency from the start to the end of the piece.

    Time123 (b87ded)

  5. Time123, you must indeed have a lot of time on your hands to compose a wall of words, the point of which I (in contrast) don’t have a lot of time to conjure a meaning.

    Can you condense it to something highbrow like “Aw, poor Trump fans!” (just a suggestion), or did I actually just nail it?

    Munroe (53beca)

  6. So wait, people actually pay to have Rudy Giuliani represent them?

    Dave (1bb933)

  7. That took 5 whole minutes to write while I ate lunch.
    You must read really slow.

    Time123 (f1b520)

  8. As Jefferson once wrote to a pen pal, “I’m sorry I didn’t have the time to write you a shorter letter”. (Paraphrasing)

    Munroe (53beca)

  9. Defending oligarchs who looted the country, running it through cyprus, wasnt there a story or two about that, mag something or other. Now you could argue kolomoisky isnr someone we should stick our necks for, which poroshenko did when he bailes him out.

    Narciso (e7ef48)

  10. Man, this is just exactly like your Monica Crowley criticisms. I shall respond in kind – this is the continued civic illiteracy that you showed in that post.

    On the one hand:

    Hunter Biden, son of the Vice President, is a highly paid lobbyist for a corrupt natural gas producer, and the prosecutor in that case is unceremoniously fired at the behest of Vice President Joe Biden. How is all this not a corrupt swamp of doom? And what else has Hunter Biden done other than make money through political cronyism? Hunter Biden is sure as hell no Rudy.

    Rudy Giuliani is one of the heroes of 9/11 and has wide-ranging interests and concerns for this country. He was on scene at the ISIS attacks and personally urged continued determination at getting Osama bin Laden – and with that determination eventually came the death of the lead attacker on our country.

    With the Clintons and Bidens now the leading attackers on our country, Rudy is supporting… opponents of Clinton and Biden interests. What, would you have him as Bill Clinton’s Jeffrey Epstein? No – he’s going to represent agencies and people who oppose the swampification of America, unlike yourself.

    The fact that those interests largely coincide is not a surprise – anti-Clinton forces are an allied pro-democracy, anti-socialist group. That Rudy is for Trump and for agencies, companies, and governments that support him is entirely appropriate. Go drink Ted Cruz’ tears and stop ankle-biting America’s actual heroes.

    JRM (de6363)

  11. ” . . 99.9% of them could not begin to tell you what Burisma’s alleged crimes were, …Hint: the Ukrainian crime under investigation was not having a $50,000 a month job, . . .”

    -Oh. So if the Ukrainians didn’t care, why should we? When a man paid 50K/mo by a Ukrainian Co, who speaks no Ukrainian or Russian, has no energy sector experience-and who’s sole qualification appears to be that he is a US official’s son-hey-what’s the big deal?

    Harcourt Fenton Mudd (0c349e)

  12. What about Andrew Giuliani, Rudy’s son, who is on the White House payroll as a Public Liaison Assistant, but his main job is to play golf with Trump, having majored in golf at Duke?

    nk (dbc370)

  13. All this pales next to the real disaster which is Trump’s presidency. I dare you to read Trump’s most recent (as of this moment) tweet and tell me he is not a loony out of control who should not be within 1,000 miles of the White House. I double dare you! https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1179422987684077568

    nk (dbc370)

  14. HFM

    Hunter Biden’s BOD rule looks corrupt as hell. He traded off his father’s name and it appears to be legal. It doesn’t appear that Joe Biden’s push to fire Shokin was done for the benefit of his son. Regardless, The law should be fixed to make this sort of corruption harder. I think we’re on the same page there.

    What Rudy is doing may also be corrupt as hell. Don’t know yet but the news story quoted seems to support it. Just as Hunter’s corrupt trade on his father’s position is wrong so is this.

    I think we should care about both.

    Time123 (dba73f)

  15. “As Jefferson once wrote to a pen pal, “I’m sorry I didn’t have the time to write you a shorter letter”. (Paraphrasing)”

    – Munroe

    Yeah, you’re a super-genius for being so concise. Please share your secret trick (other than avoiding substance or ever staking out your own position on anything – those are just the obvious tricks, I assume).

    Leviticus (efada1)

  16. A new liquified gas venture? Secretary of Energy Rick Perry secured that years ago. He also represented the US as an envoy at Zelensky’s inaugural, after Trump ordered Pence not to attend.

    Congress also wants to question Perry about his ventures there.

    https://www.politico.com/news/2019/10/01/menendez-perry-ukraine-016229

    I seriously doubt they’ll find anything incriminating or untoward in those visits. Perry was representing the US in negotiating energy deals. He’s done the same in the EU, by opposing the Russian pipeline to Germany. Under his guidance, the US now leads the world in oil and natural gas production, as befits the former governor of Texas.

    There’s no hint of corruption associated with anything Perry has done. He remains one of the few administration officials that can be said about–the others have all left.

    Perry was my first choice in 2016, because he really was a very good governor of Texas. Unfortunately, he couldn’t generate national appeal, in part because of his miscues. I still believe he was the best candidate for president.

    Was I disappointed when he accepted a position in the Trump administration? Sure, but all he has done in that position is promote the interests of the United States and advance energy policy. There has never been any filth and dirt around him.

    Wish I could say the same about Ted Cruz, who was my second choice. He has been reduced to a groveling supplicant. And that’s sad. Yeah, I voted for his reelection, but only because Beto O’Rourke is an ass-clown. But I won’t be voting for him again, nor will I be voting for Cornyn ini this cycle. Supplicants both, vassals in thrall to Trump the Almighty, they disgust me. As does every other Republican-In-Name-Only/Trump-Butt-Gerbil.

    Rick Perry alone has escaped controversy. He’s done his job and done it well. There’s no spotlight on him.

    There is on Trump’s and Giuliani’s corrupt dealings with Ukraine, which to way back.

    https://www.thedailybeast.com/trump-and-rudy-giuliani-connections-to-sam-kislin-and-ukraine-corruption-go-back-decades

    Gawain's Ghost (b25cd1)

  17. nk @13.

    This tweet is not a particularly bad. There are a number of other things that would give a person the idea that this man should not be within 1,000 miles of the White House but not these. (in an ideal world. As it is, we might deserve him.)

    I don’t even know what exactly about that tweet makes him a loon out of control. None of the following would seem to fit:

    1) The use of an expletive [BS unabbereviated and in capital letters)

    That could be justified. It’s very unpresidential, but not clearly wrong.

    2) That he got elected 223-306. He’s counting only the votes Hillary Cliton actually got, and then subtracting an additional four,(!) and giving himself all the votes of his Electors including the two faithless electors, and putting the results in the wrong order. It was 306-232 (notice it adds up to 538) in favor of Trump on Election Night.

    Donald Trump has never been very honest about numbers. He always changes them in his favor. In this case Trump probably copied the Electoral College numbers from somebody else. Who listed an amount by which Hillary lost.

    And that somebody must be involved with guns. .223 is acaliber and another well knw size is .308

    https://thebiggamehuntingblog.com/223-vs-308

    Sammy Finkelman (102c75)

  18. HFM,

    I think the relevance of Rudy’s potential corruption is that it undercuts Trumps defense that this is part of ‘draining the swamp’ Unless your definition of swamp includes only his political opponents.

    as I’ve said before; His failure to follow through on his anti-corruption promises is one of my biggest disappointments in his presidency. I honestly thought he might do something there if for no other reason than spite.

    Time123 (dba73f)

  19. “As Jefferson once wrote to a pen pal, “I’m sorry I didn’t have the time to write you a shorter letter”. (Paraphrasing)”

    I think that was Lincoln, or Mark Twain.

    Or Fortunatus Dwarris (who he?)

    This web site attributes it to Mark Twain:

    https://andreaskluth.org/2009/05/09/about-not-confusing-length-with-depth

    It may have been an expression that circulated.

    Sammy Finkelman (102c75)

  20. I think there is little doubt that Rudolph Giuliani was getting a lot of wrong information, but I think there is very great reasion to doubt that he was circulating information he knew to be false. How much are they paying him? Enough to get him to fabricate anything?

    It loooks much more like a con job being played on Rudy Giuliani than Rusy Giuliani being a con man.

    Sammy Finkelman (102c75)

  21. That he got elected 223-306. He’s counting only the votes Hillary Cliton actually got, and then subtracting an additional four,(!) and giving himself all the votes of his Electors including the two faithless electors, and putting the results in the wrong order. It was 306-232 (notice it adds up to 538) in favor of Trump on Election Night.

    Or more simply, he…or someone he copied the numbers from…transposed 232 into 223. Or the math. Hanlon’s Razor or whatever.

    PTw (894877)

  22. “When a man paid 50K/mo by a Ukrainian Co, who speaks no Ukrainian or Russian, has no energy sector experience-and who’s sole qualification appears to be that he is a US official’s son-hey-what’s the big deal?”

    This whole story has opened my eyes about how ignorant Trump supporters seem to be about how corporate board memberships work.

    Davethulhu (fab944)

  23. A long time ago, Democrats decided the Constitution and our laws don’t always lead to fair or just results, and what matters more is how people feel. They decided that who to trust and believe, which groups need special treatment and which ones have too much privilege isn’t something to be left to a system based on a Constitution and laws. Instead, Democrats rely on their gut feelings, caring and empathy.

    Donald Trump also relies on his gut to tell him what is just and fair, who to trust and believe, and which groups need special treatment and which ones have too much privilege. Like the Democrats, he has little concern for the legal aspects, only how he can use institutions, people and events to his advantage. Many Republicans have been happy to join him.

    That leaves people like me adrift, left to choose between two sides of the same coin. Both parties rely on feelings, both do what they want and justify it later, both are basically Democrats. It feels good if you agree with the goals but IMO the destruction to our system and values will hurt America for years to come.

    DRJ (15874d)

  24. Here is something about Parnas and Fruman:

    https://www.miamiherald.com/news/politics-government/article235626327.html

    Parnas and Fruman have recently become major Republican donors — and couriers of what they say is explosive information sourced from Ukraine about widespread corruption involving Joe Biden, Hillary Clinton, American diplomats and Ukrainian officials. Giuliani, the president’s personal lawyer and a former New York City mayor, has been their conduit to the Trump administration…

    Couriers.

    Giuliani says the “dirt” on Joe Biden (as a Fox News interviewer called it) was handed to him by Ukrainians who (notionally we have to say) were amazed that the FBI ignored their information a year before.

    That means this is bigger than Parnas and Fruman.

    Could they do an entire hoax all by themselves? Are all the Ukrainian sources and documents invented and created by two Americans? If they are involved in a con job, and that’s the best guess at the start, they probably are not purely independent, or motivated by wanting to destr Burisma. That’s ahypothesis that aims to simplify the story.

    They might be making their real money from some connection to Russia. Or getting paid for this.

    Something bigger than two conmen, acting alone, had to organize a false story like this. And certainly not Giuliani.

    ‘ they might not be purely independent, but might be making their real mony from some connection to Russia.

    Is it believeable that Giuliani would try to perpetrate a hoax on the scale of and no more solid than the Howard Hughes autobiography by Clifford Irving?

    …To Dianne and Michael Pues, it’s no surprise Parnas has helped inject a stream of apparent misinformation into the public discourse.

    “Mr. Parnas is a con man, he is a crook,” Dianne Pues said. “He conned us from day one.”

    Their relationship with Parnas dates back to 2010, long before House investigators started asking questions about him and Fruman. Parnas solicited Michael Pues for a $350,000 bridge loan to help finance a movie called “Anatomy of an Assassin,” according to a lawsuit filed in 2011. Parnas even arranged a dinner with Jack Nicholson, court records state. But he never paid the money back. Five years later, a judge in New York federal court ruled that Parnas owed more than $500,000 to a Pues family trust. Tracking down Parnas to enforce the judgment has been a Herculean labor, according to court records and an attorney representing the trust in Florida, where the couple is now pursuing the case. Parnas’ failure to pay has left them in a precarious situation.

    “He financially ruined us,” Dianne Pues said. “Our lives have not been the same since the day we met him.” …

    …At the same time he and Fruman have faced lawsuits over unpaid debts, the two men and their natural gas company, Global Energy Producers, have donated more than $400,000 to Republican candidates and committees supporting them in federal elections. A $325,000 donation to a pro-Trump super PAC was the subject of a complaint from a nonpartisan watchdog group.

    Fruman runs an import/export business and a boutique hotel in Odessa, Ukraine, according to a profile by Buzzfeed. He also invested in a milk-canning plant in Ukraine that went bankrupt after going nearly $25 million in debt. I would suspect aconnectiopn to Russia, not aprivate hope that somehow , out of all of this, their natural gas copany might be helped. We don’t even know that they are real competitors.

    And Lev Parnas and Igor Fruman could have gotten involved in this because they thought they had something. They could have hired Giuliani for something just to get him to talk to them. I don;’ think their being a client was any big thing to Giuliani.
    ?

    This would be comparable to a short seller strategy. It tells you nothing, except that you have to be wary of the information.

    And we can’t be sure of the motives of the two. If bad, This also does not say to what lengths they would go to make money or what their chances were

    Sammy Finkelman (102c75)

  25. “That leaves people like me adrift, left to choose between two sides of the same coin. Both parties rely on feelings, both do what they want and justify it later, both are basically Democrats. It feels good if you agree with the goals but IMO the destruction to our system and values will hurt America for years to come.”

    Donald has changed the Republican party less than you think. He’s just pulled the mask off.

    Davethulhu (fab944)

  26. JRM,

    Isn’t Patterico’s point that Giuliani has a personal financial motive to use his and the President’s political influence/power to intervene in Ukraine — just like the Biden’s?

    DRJ (15874d)

  27. Maybe it was a mask but so what if it impacted their behavior in order to limit how corrupt they were willing to be? It is like manners. Do we care how mean or rude someone in their heart of hearts if they moderate their public behavior?

    DRJ (15874d)

  28. DRJ @23.

    “That leaves people like me adrift, left to choose between two sides of the same coin. Both parties rely on feelings, both do what they want and justify it later, both are basically Democrats. It feels good if you agree with the goals but IMO the destruction to our system and values will hurt America for years to come.”

    These two sides are not mirror images of each other. The “Republican” or “Trumpist” side likes to “prove” things by citing their opponents’ own words (even quite incorrectly) while the “Democratic” side likes to invent copious amounst of inside dope and leak it.

    Sammy Finkelman (102c75)

  29. What is the Rule of Law but a system of agreed or legislated manners that make us act nice to each other and punish those who don’t? Give up on the facade and we have tribal anarchy.

    DRJ (15874d)

  30. 14 I don’t disagree w/ you: only feel that Trump’s activities are under a microscope and Biden’s are not, so that’s where I focus.

    Harcourt Fenton Mudd (0c349e)

  31. I don’t disagree w/ you: only feel that Trump’s activities are under a microscope and Biden’s are not, so that’s where I focus.

    One of them is the president, today, one of them is not.

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (6e7a1c)

  32. 22: Your humble servant apologizes if his pitifully ignorant views disappoint you. Sometimes I write assuming a mutual level of understanding. The issue is not Hunter on a board: the issue is what JB did or said he did and may have done in office as a result of his nobody son being on a board. And why the Uks paid and continued to pay the pittance of 50K /mo to a nobody is part of that inquiry. Does that make it better?

    Harcourt Fenton Mudd (0c349e)

  33. 31: ah, so we focus 100% on one guy -nails, hammers, cannon, rockets, –to the exclusion of even looking into the past guy? I don’t think so. Suspected malfeasance in office is never a stale issue.

    Harcourt Fenton Mudd (0c349e)

  34. ah, so we focus 100% on one guy -nails, hammers, cannon, rockets, –to the exclusion of even looking into the past guy? I don’t think so. Suspected malfeasance in office is never a stale issue.

    A) The “past guy” you’re referring to is based on a fake story conspiracy theory. B) The current guy is more time critical because he’s the current guy. C) The current guy has already stipulated the facts, he just doesn’t think it’s wrong. Hence he’s done it, over, and over again.

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (6e7a1c)

  35. “Suspected malfeasance in office is never a stale issue.”

    Malfeasance by who? Hunter Biden was never in office. Joe Biden’s actions resulted in the removal of a prosecutor who was widely viewed as being corrupt, and who was replaced by one who actually investigated Burisma.

    Davethulhu (fab944)

  36. The House Intelligence Committee can bring up all of Giuliani’s business activities in Ukraine without him being able to raise attorney-client privilege.

    Paul Montagu (f74687)

  37. 34/35: Well, now that you’ve cleared it all up, no need for an investigation, esp. since you’ve decided what the facts are w/o one. Let me guess: you also believe that Loretta Lynch and Bubba talked about their grandchildren?

    Harcourt Fenton Mudd (0c349e)

  38. 35. Except for one thing: The drama with the cancelled press conference probably never hapepned, and Joe Biden had little to do with the removal of the prosecutor.

    AND THEY’RE ALL MIXED UP because the Whistleblower complaint says that Trump wanted to keep Lutsenko (the replacement for Shokin) in office and told that to Zelensky.

    And the New York Times thought Lutsenko was the good prosecutor Trump had in mind in his telephoen call when he said “I heard you had a prosecutor who was very good and he was shut down and that’s really unfair.”

    Sammy Finkelman (102c75)

  39. “One of them is the president, today, one of them is not.”
    Colonel Klink (Ret) (6e7a1c) — 10/2/2019 @ 11:23 am

    And there are things called elections that decide that, like 13 months from now. But, why rely on that, right?

    Munroe (0aee87)

  40. And there are things called elections that decide that, like 13 months from now. But, why rely on that, right?

    Nixon had just been re-elected, Clinton had just been re-elected. The constitution exists for a reason, so you’re argument is silly.

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (6e7a1c)

  41. And a disgruntled bureau operative, set the table, and a compromised judge operating along with dem operatives.

    Narciso (e7ef48)

  42. He’s a lawyer AND a politician AND a New Yorker. Why is it such a surprise that he’s got ethical issues?

    Kevin M (19357e)

  43. And there are things called elections that decide that, like 13 months from now. But, why rely on that, right?

    Munroe (0aee87) — 10/2/2019 @ 12:09 pm

    whooosh goes the point (that the president is supposed to be accountable). ‘but he was elected’ aint gonna cut it.

    Dustin (6d7686)

  44. “Nixon had just been re-elected, Clinton had just been re-elected. The constitution exists for a reason, so you’re argument is silly.”
    Colonel Klink (Ret) (6e7a1c) — 10/2/2019 @ 12:13 pm

    Nixon and Clinton were both in their second terms, so there was no direct electoral check on their conduct available, so your point is both irrelevant and silly.

    Munroe (0aee87)

  45. Kevin M 42. Who are you talking about?

    Anyway, I think Giuliani does have some ethical issues, especially since he left his job as mayor – he’s getting involved with all kinds of people.

    But I don’t think he was trying to invent accusations or going above and beyond the call of duty to trying to help his clients the Florida swindlers, who in any case cannot possibly have been behind all of this themselves. But I can see them involving Giuliani in a Russian inspired mixed up version of the truth.

    The truth must be disentangled.

    Sammy Finkelman (102c75)

  46. The one that’s a lawyer, obviously.

    Kevin M (19357e)

  47. now guiliani did help create this very ruthless culture at the sdny, which pat fitzgerald, and james comey are part of, but when you’re in gotham, you need to cut some corners, now fitzgerald was never reprimanded for what he did to conrad black, and lewis libby, of course the ones who looked down on blago, like ed burke and Michael Madigan are themselves as corrupt as all out,

    narciso (d1f714)

  48. 44: We also elect representatives, one of whose jobs is to be a check on the executive branch. That responsibility is not contingent upon how soon there’s another presidential election.

    Radegunda (13e3ce)

  49. (Hint: the Ukrainian crime under investigation was not having a $50,000 a month job, which is literally the only thing Trump partisans know about Burisma or Hunter Biden. It has to do with potential corruption by founder Mykola Zlochevsky, including tax evasion, money laundering, and misconduct in obtaining licenses for the company while serving as deputy secretary of Ukraine’s National Security and Defense Council. But you knew that.)”

    Yeah I did know that. But thank sfor the dripping sarcasm. Trump really brings out the best in all of us, no?

    I knew that a Ukrainian government official had pointed out the obvious, that it is not corruption to simply hire a know nothing coke fiend like Hunter to be on your board even if he is way overpaid by $50,000 a month.
    The key word is there when it comes to corruption is the word “simply”. The question properly arose, “was there quid pro quo from Joe Biden?”, because Joe could have gotten in front of it by saying essentially the same thing as the Ukrainian, but his denials about not knowing a thing about the job, never spoke with Hunter about it…. blah blah Joe’s usual blah, piqued peoples interest due to the implausibility of Joe assertions. In Joe’s defense, he is a lifelong politician, a habitual liar and much like Trump seems to put his whole foot in his mouth and spout off nonsense with no regard for consequences, but like with Trump, peoples warning bells go off, because something starts to smell fishy.
    It smelled fishier when although the Bidens traveled together on AF2 to China and Ukraine on 15 hour flights, Biden steadfastly claimed that they never talked about these great big financial coups Hunter had rung up all on his own.
    Couple all of this with the tough guy bluster Biden bragged about, it seemed like he was comfortable being the tough guy demanding smaller nation-states play along or get screwed and it seemed plausible that there might be something going on with all the largess being showered on Joe’s kid.
    If Joe hadn’t lied about it, it probably would have gone away on its own.

    steveg (354706)

  50. zylochevsky, the bad oligarch bought protection with the ex polish prime minister, the ex head of counter terror for the company, a rainmaker for morgan and renaissance capital, those were the major players, now on the other end you have kolomoisky, who lost or stole 1.7 billion from the privat bank, he bankrolls the good guys, from yurchenko to tymoshenko to zelensky now, you want to keep writing them checks,

    narciso (d1f714)

  51. DRJ: Look at the post I linked to. I think that will help and you will agree with the, uh, spirit of my post.

    JRM (de6363)

  52. “Well, now that you’ve cleared it all up, no need for an investigation,”

    Burisma was investigated.

    “esp. since you’ve decided what the facts are w/o one.”

    Look, man, if you want to criminalize companies appointing unqualified but influential board members, I’m with you 100%, but I think you’d be hard pressed to find a major company that wasn’t in violation. In fact, you should check out Elizabeth Warren’s plan to
    regulate corporate governance.

    Davethulhu (fab944)

  53. Rudy may be sweating bullets. He’s threatening to sue Democrats to keep from testifying.

    Paul Montagu (f74687)

  54. We have to know where this idea that’s in the WB complaint that Trump wanted Zelensky to keep Lutsenko came from.

    Trump, after all, is supposed to believe that Lutsenko is a bad prosecutor. Giuliani is on record as saying Biden got him into office to protect Burisma. Completely wrong, but that’s the theory he was asserting in late September.

    Sammy Finkelman (102c75)

  55. They are a check on the branch, but cannot usurp the power of the other branch.
    There are limits on what the house can do on foreign policy initiatives and conversations that come out of the State Dept. They can’t stop Trump from firing the US ambassador to the Ukraine for example.
    The house also cannot stop Trump from enforcing the laws of this country. Even ones unpopular with the Democrats like Immigration laws. State and DOJ are executive branch and if actions taken are allowed under the law, the worst the house can do is block funding, but what they should do is have the cojones to change the law.

    I think the house will vote to impeach Trump (although they’d be foolish to given that Mitch runs the Senate and the discovery and testimony that will ensue)) and I think that because this has some cover as a matter of the State Dept. (foreign affairs) and the DoJ (corruption and election interference) however flimsy it is, its an executive power and impeachment will be seen by most of the public as an over reach. Add to that the Senate will dish as much or more dirt on the Dems during hearings and it will be seen by history as a bad move by Pelosi and Schiff.
    IMO of course

    steveg (354706)

  56. let them do it, get it out of their system. but lets not pretend it’s anything related to justice,

    narciso (d1f714)

  57. The key word is there when it comes to corruption is the word “simply”. The question properly arose, “was there quid pro quo from Joe Biden?”, because Joe could have gotten in front of it by saying essentially the same thing as the Ukrainian, but his denials about not knowing a thing about the job, never spoke with Hunter about it…. blah blah Joe’s usual blah, piqued peoples interest due to the implausibility of Joe assertions.

    Well, you could do that as a means of avoiding acoflict interest (it’s like a blind trust)

    And there';s also the fact that when this started, his oldest son, Joseph Robinette “Beau” Biden III, was suffering from a brain tumor where there seemed to be little hope for a half a year or a year before he died on May 30, 2015 (he’d struggled with it from 2010, keeping it secret) r maybe not. He died rather quickly without that much notice that it was imminent.

    .https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beau_Biden

    For the final few years of his life, Biden suffered from a brain tumor.[33][34] In May 2010, he was admitted to Christiana Hospital in Newark, Delaware, after complaining of a headache, numbness, and paralysis; officials stated that he had suffered a “mild stroke”.[34][35] Later that month, Biden was transferred to Thomas Jefferson University Hospital in Philadelphia and kept for observation for several days.[35]

    In August 2013, Biden was admitted to the University of Texas MD Anderson Cancer Center in Houston and diagnosed with brain cancer, after experiencing what White House officials called “an episode of disorientation and weakness.”[36] A lesion was removed at that time. Biden had radiation and chemotherapy treatments and the cancer remained stable.[37] On May 20, 2015, he was admitted to Walter Reed National Military Medical Center in Bethesda, Maryland, because of a recurrence of brain cancer. He died there 10 days later, on May 30, 2015, at age 46

    Maybe some clues can be gotten from Beau Biden’s political career. He avoided campaigning for anew office in 2010 and

    Biden did not seek election to a third term as Attorney General in 2014.[30] In the spring of that year, he announced his intention to run for Governor of Delaware in the 2016 election to succeed term-limited Democratic Governor Jack Markell.[31][32] At the time of this announcement, the cancer that would kill Biden in 2015 had been diagnosed but was in remission, although this information was not public at the time.

    so Beau Biden knew it could come back, but if it didn’t he intended to continue his poltical career.

    Meanwhile both Joe and Beau Biden had to decide what to do with Hunter. Probably they just hoped he would stay out of trouble, and not make headlines, and they probably thought that if he had lot of money it would be easier for him to stay out of trouble. Hunter Biden was spending money on prostitutes, and strip clubs, and women he picked up, including one time a homeless women, not to mention drugs like cocaine. They got him into the Navy Reserve in May 2013, but he got kicked out in February 2014.

    There’s not such a big contradition between Joe Biden and Hunter Biden as to whether they talked about his business affairs. Hunter Biden says that (at some point, which would probably beafter teh state Department brought it to his attention) Joe Biden asked his son Hunter if he was sure if he knew what he was doig and he said yes.

    Sammy Finkelman (102c75)

  58. All this pales next to the real disaster which is Trump’s presidency. I dare you to read Trump’s most recent (as of this moment) tweet and tell me he is not a loony out of control who should not be within 1,000 miles of the White House. I double dare you!

    I think I’ve got it figured out. He’s planning to plead insanity.

    Dave (1bb933)

  59. Trump said there’s a treaty that requires he look into corruption in the Ukraine and the President of Ukraine has to do the same. Anyway, if your competitor is corrupt, they don’t get a pass because their troubles might somehow benefit someone on your side.

    Let’s just have an investigation into Biden and his pressuring the Ukraine. Its either good or it isn’t. The MSM defenses of Biden are ridiculous. If there’s no corruption, that should be found in two seconds and actually HELP Biden. But constantly opposing anyone looking into it, they’re actually making Biden look like he has something to hide.

    rcocean (1a839e)

  60. I think I’ve got it figured out. He’s planning to plead insanity.

    He is incapable of carrying out the duties of the presidency.

    Whenever the Vice President and a majority of either the principal officers of the executive departments or of such other body as Congress may by law provide, transmit to the President pro tempore of the Senate and the Speaker of the House of Representatives their written declaration that the President is unable to discharge the powers and duties of his office, the Vice President shall immediately assume the powers and duties of the office as Acting President.

    Thereafter, when the President transmits to the President pro tempore of the Senate and the Speaker of the House of Representatives his written declaration that no inability exists, he shall resume the powers and duties of his office unless the Vice President and a majority of either the principal officers of the executive department or of such other body as Congress may by law provide, transmit within four days to the President pro tempore of the Senate and the Speaker of the House of Representatives their written declaration that the President is unable to discharge the powers and duties of his office. Thereupon Congress shall decide the issue, assembling within forty-eight hours for that purpose if not in session. If the Congress, within twenty-one days after receipt of the latter written declaration, or, if Congress is not in session, within twenty-one days after Congress is required to assemble, determines by two-thirds vote of both Houses that the President is unable to discharge the powers and duties of his office, the Vice President shall continue to discharge the same as Acting President; otherwise, the President shall resume the powers and duties of his office.

    This man is a really stupid loon.

    President Trump said Wednesday that he’s considering bringing “a major lawsuit” against unidentified people regarding former special counsel Robert Mueller’s investigation, accusing Mueller of treating him and his associates unfairly.

    “We’ve been investigating on a personal basis, through Rudy [Giuliani] and others, lawyers, corruption in the 2016 election. We’ve been investigating corruption because I probably will, I was going to definitely, but I probably will be bringing a lot of litigation against a lot of people having to do with the corrupt investigation having to do with the 2016 election,” Trump said during a press conference with Finnish President Sauli Niinistö.

    “I’ve been looking at that long and hard for a long period of time, how it started, why it started, it should never happen to another president, ever, but I’ve been talking about it from the standpoint of bringing a major lawsuit, and I’ve been talking about it for a long time,” he added

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (6e7a1c)

  61. “Let’s just have an investigation into Biden and his pressuring the Ukraine. Its either good or it isn’t. The MSM defenses of Biden are ridiculous. If there’s no corruption, that should be found in two seconds and actually HELP Biden. But constantly opposing anyone looking into it, they’re actually making Biden look like he has something to hide.”

    Guess who controls the part of government that would start such an investigation.

    Davethulhu (1ebe81)

  62. Guess who controls the part of government that would start such an investigation.

    Investigate a political opponent? I heard you could be impeached for that.

    Trump is a bacterium, but the Democrats are deadly fungi spores. Where’s the disinfectant?

    nk (dbc370)

  63. I think I’ve got it figured out. He’s planning to plead insanity.

    The new version of “He’s just trolling, and you fall for it every time!” When Trump says stupid stuff, it’s only so that other people will react by saying stupid stuff, and then we can see how stupid they are!

    Radegunda (13e3ce)

  64. The new version of “He’s just trolling, and you fall for it every time!” When Trump says stupid stuff, it’s only so that other people will react by saying stupid stuff, and then we can see how stupid they are!

    It’s Trump’s taint. Paul, you have nailed it.

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (6e7a1c)

  65. I pointed a long string of Ukrainian sourced links in the kyev post and unian and ukrinfo, as well as the translation from striana, that debunks the dem narrative,

    narciso (d1f714)

  66. “We also elect representatives, one of whose jobs is to be a check on the executive branch. That responsibility is not contingent upon how soon there’s another presidential election.”
    Radegunda (13e3ce) — 10/2/2019 @ 1:10 pm

    Congress certainly has every right to impeach/convict/remove on Nov. 1, 2020.

    Yeah, go with that. Please.

    Munroe (0aee87)

  67. Well, hellllllllllllo-dare, Spiro!

    WaPo reports Trump tapped Pence in Biden/Ukraine dirt digging.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  68. Old news, DCSCA but it won’t be Nikki time.

    urbanleftbehind (1023e8)

  69. @13. OTOH, Truman was a man of letters– and would blurt that out a dozen times before breakfast.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  70. @69. We’ll see… she’s naturally tanned, rested and ready.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  71. 65 — I’m flattered to have been confused with our own Paul M. (if that’s what you did there).

    Radegunda (13e3ce)

  72. I’m flattered to have been confused with our own Paul M. (if that’s what you did there).

    On another thread Paul used Trump’s taint as a description, i.e. lay down with dog’s all that, but Trump’s Taint™ should be the default name for the Cheeto jeezus’s fan club.

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (6e7a1c)

  73. Man, this is just exactly like your Monica Crowley criticisms. I shall respond in kind – this is the continued civic illiteracy that you showed in that post.

    Damn. Even though I lived through that comment section I just experienced the same whiplash this evening that I experienced then. Namely, in this order:

    * Why does an insane looking comment come from JRM? I thought he was that guy I really liked.
    * Maybe it’s a different JRM. Let’s look the guy up in the commenting software.
    * Nope, that’s really JRM. But I have a very, very high opinion of him. What the hell?
    *
    *
    *
    * Ohhhhhhhhhh!

    It all happened pretty quick, but still, an unsettling 60 seconds or so.

    And yes, as to your comment: hilarious.

    I see DRJ had the same temporary reaction I had at first too.

    Patterico (115b1f)

  74. DRJ: Look at the post I linked to. I think that will help and you will agree with the, uh, spirit of my post.

    DRJ,

    It’s very subtle. Maybe too subtle? I love stuff like that because I do stuff that is too subtle all the time, and get misunderstood all the time as a result.

    Patterico (115b1f)

  75. 73: thanks for the clarification. I’ve been duly humbled.

    Radegunda (13e3ce)

  76. This whole story has opened my eyes about how ignorant Trump haters and Democrats are about how corporate board memberships work.

    Seriously, they seem to think the Ukrainian Energy Company just hired a random American who knows nothing about the Oil business and paid him $600K and put him on the board for his winning smile and sense of humor. ‘Cause that’s the way all companies act.

    Talk about ignorant!

    rcocean (1a839e)

  77. Insert Trump insult 1,543.

    Applause Sign. Cue laugh track.

    rcocean (1a839e)

  78. 62.Guess who controls the part of government that would start such an investigation.

    Your not paying attention. If President Trump, possessing article 2 powers, starts an investigation, its election interference. If President Trump shuts down and investigation that is based on corrupt intentions, and fabricated evidence, its obstruction of justice.

    iowan2 (9c8856)

  79. Clinton fired all 93 us atty then went after jay stephens who was doing an independent invesyigation, this was all because of a credible criminal investigation.

    Narciso (e7ef48)

  80. Who said this?

    ….first, when you tell stories of things that didn’t happen with the frequency of Joe Biden, coupled with his fervent belief of these untrue and inaccurate statements, I don’t think “lie” is the appropriate term. “Hallucinations” seems more accurate, I think.

    That was Jim Gerafhty of National Review, on October 3, 2008 2:14 PM

    Eleven years ago

    https://www.nationalreview.com/the-campaign-spot/biden-errorliehallucination-list-updated-22-jim-geraghty

    Let me see if any of these are really good – not about political issues, but more personal. I found maybe two in this list. (these are all from the 2008 campaign)

    We have:

    “Look, all you have to do is go down Union Street with me in Wilmington or go to Katie’s Restaurant or walk into Home Depot with me where I spend a lot of time and you ask anybody in there whether or not the economic and foreign policy of this administration has made them better off in the last eight years.”

    According to this Delaware site, Katie’s Restaurant is no longer in business; locals remember it on Union Street 25 to 30 years ago.
    ————————————–

    Biden: President Bush insisted on elections in the West Bank, when I said, and others said, and Barack Obama said, ‘Big mistake. Hamas will win. You’ll legitimize them.’”

    The Washington Post’s Glenn Kessler notes that “Obama had been a senator for only a few days when the election took place, but if he made such statements, they did not appear in news reports or transcripts that are contained in the Nexis or Factiva databases.”
    ————————————–

    But his crucial role in getting rid of the Viktor Shokin in another one.

    Sammy Finkelman (bcd7c8)

  81. From the New York Times, May 1, 2019: (where you can see the $50,000 s month figure for Hunter Biden comes from)

    https://www.nytimes.com/2019/05/01/us/politics/biden-son-ukraine.html Burisma paid $3.4 million to a company called Rosemont Seneca Bohai LLC from mid-April 2014, when Hunter Biden and Mr. Archer joined the board, to late 2015, according to the financial data provided by the Ukrainian deputy prosecutor. The payments continued after that, according to people familiar with the arrangement.

    Rosemont Seneca Bohai was controlled by Mr. Archer, who left Burisma’s board after he was charged in connection with a scheme to defraud pension funds and an Indian tribe of tens of millions of dollars. Bank records submitted in that case — which resulted in a conviction for Mr. Archer that was overturned in November — show that Rosemont Seneca Bohai made regular payments to Mr. Biden that totaled as much as $50,000 in some months. What Hunter Biden left at the end of 2017 was the New York law firm Boies Schiller Flexner, In 2014, Borisma paid paid $283,000 to Boies Schiller for legal services of an unknown nature. Hunter Biden announced that he had left Borisma;s Board of Directors on Wednesday, May 1, 201.

    Sammy Finkelman (bcd7c8)

  82. Speaking of Giuliani, he was the guy who ‘fessed up to giving that packet of disinformation to Pompeo, and which may have led to the unjustified sacking of Ms. Yovanovitch:

    The State Department’s inspector general briefed congressional aides Wednesday about an apparent attempt to smear the former U.S. ambassador to Ukraine, who is seen by House Democrats as a key witness in their impeachment inquiry.
    According to sources who attended the closed-door briefing, Steve Linick revealed that a packet of documents containing misinformation about the former ambassador, Marie Yovanovitch, was sent to Secretary of State Mike Pompeo earlier this year from an unknown source. Hunter Biden, the son of former Vice President Joe Biden, was also a target of debunked conspiracy theories laid out in the documents, lawmakers and aides said.

    He should be on a golf course somewhere, damaging golf balls instead of his credibility.

    Paul Montagu (f74687)

  83. 83, Errata – unsuccesesful quotes

    Starting with rhe words:

    What Hunter Biden left,,,

    it’s not the New York Times story anymore.

    Sammy Finkelman (bcd7c8)

  84. Insert Trump insult 1,543

    Trump’s so fat, when he sits around the Oval Office he really sits around the Oval Office.

    nk (dbc370)

  85. Credit where credit is due: Monica Crowley wrote that joke for me.

    nk (dbc370)

  86. “Your not paying attention. If President Trump, possessing article 2 powers, starts an investigation, its election interference. If President Trump shuts down an investigation that is based on corrupt intentions, and fabricated evidence, its obstruction of justice.”

    Now that’s some irony.

    Davethulhu (fe4242)

  87. Off topic, but I’d like to congratulate Jacob Wohl and Jack Burkman for doing their part to elect Elizabeth Warren
    https://twitter.com/Jack_Burkman/status/1179517422879084544

    Davethulhu (fe4242)

  88. Very clever, JRM.

    DRJ (15874d)

  89. This is the way I see the Hunter Biden episode with Burisma.
    Companies can put people on their boards at whatever pay for whatever reason.
    However generally speaking they expect a return on their investment.
    So lets look at Hunter and Archer. Both know for sure that if you add fire to natural gas, it burns. Beyond that we don’t know what they know.
    So there must be some other thing that Burisma thinks might be brought to the table….. maybe, going out on a limb here, they are betting on the come line for access to the VP of the most powerful nation on earth… simplest answer, most likely to be true, assumes no bad action by anyone. That bet is on Burisma.
    But, ask yourself.: How long do I want to pay 100,000 a month for two dupes who cannot deliver access or favor? My guess is after the first hint to them about what I want, they have a couple months to give me something that keeps them on the payroll.
    Now the Bidens are in a bind. Because if Joe gets pissed and hurts Burisma because I fire his dud offspring, thats corruption. If Joe gives me something give me so Hunter stays on board, that is corruption. Maybe its even a for future retribution I want at a much later date. Like on that Shokin SOB. That would be corruption.
    Lets say you are way more patient than me for your ROI.
    How long do you pay some duds 100,000 a month for no access to the only thing they have to offer? One year? OK. But they stayed on for two.

    I don’t need Occams razor. I can use an old rusty one I found under the tub. Burisma got something out of the deal or they would not have carried it on for that long.

    steveg (354706)

  90. Davethulhu (fe4242) — 10/2/2019 @ 7:55 pm

    “These charges will shock the conscious of the nation,” Burkman said.

    Dave (1bb933)

  91. $50k/month isn’t even petty cash for an oil/natural gas company.

    Condi Rice is on the board of an energy software company.
    Lynn Cheney sat on the board of Lockheed.
    The CEO of Marriott Intl. is on the board of Microsoft.
    Mitt Romney was on the board of Marriott.

    Companies don’t hire directors to manage the company.

    Dave (1bb933)

  92. But, ask yourself.: How long do I want to pay 100,000 a month for two dupes who cannot deliver access or favor? My guess is after the first hint to them about what I want, they have a couple months to give me something that keeps them on the payroll.

    Young Biden would not need to do anything for Burisma. The mere fact that he was getting a monthly stipend would be enough to ensure Old Biden’s continuing benevolence.
    There is also a probability that Young Biden could deliver access to, or at least advice on how to deal with, various DC bigwigs.

    But the point is that Young Biden’s deal with Burisma was both unethical and perfectly legal.

    Kishnevi (0dce2b)

  93. Davethulhu (fe4242) — 10/2/2019 @ 7:55 pm

    I have always been grateful to Jacob Wohl for disproving the antiSemetic canard that all Jews are smart.

    Kishnevi (0dce2b)

  94. Yes but was the “continuing benevolence” legal?
    Depends entirely on what Joe actually gave them.
    If it was a shiv to the back of Sholkin two years later or whatever.
    The Hells Angels used to be notorious for the two, three year removed retribution. Three years after a beef you are walking out to your car and get beaten near to death with a tire iron over a wallet containing 20 dollars. Robbery gone bad. Too bad you now drool uncontrollably and can’t remember what city you live in, sucks to be you.

    steveg (354706)

  95. “Condi Rice is on the board of an energy software company.
    Lynn Cheney sat on the board of Lockheed.
    The CEO of Marriott Intl. is on the board of Microsoft.
    Mitt Romney was on the board of Marriott.”

    Can we agree that all of the above are far more accomplished than Hunter Biden

    steveg (354706)

  96. “Companies don’t hire directors to manage the company.”
    Dave (1bb933) — 10/2/2019 @ 8:24 pm

    Forgot one:
    Chelsea Clinton is on the board of Expedia.

    Companies also don’t hire directors with zero experience and with names like Joe and Jane Shmoe, relatives of the plumber down the street.

    Munroe (53beca)

  97. Munroe.
    Not quibbling with you at all here.
    I think we all agree that hiring Chelsea on the board of Expedia is legal and they can pay her whatever they want.
    You do have to ask “what does she bring to that table?” and maybe if her mom was still Sec. State or even President, it might be worthwhile to look at what exactly “continued benevolence” consisted of.
    In exchange for hiring a big shots dud kid, most companies want to show a return… or maybe they already owe on a past favor given. But saying “its the name” we are paying for is usually BS. Most of these players are hard when it comes to competition and money. They get something out of Chelsea beyond her name and abilities in navigating the online travel world (since she spends a lot of time on private jets) my guess is that as private citizens, mom and dad are staunch defenders of Expedia. But as Senator or Sec State, that same bought “loyalty” could be illegal.
    Its certainly worth looking into, if Mom had won the Presidency, if only to keep our system fair.

    Some big names have to swing. None of this sacrificial lamb stuff like Nakoula Basseley Nakoula.
    The fear needs to be put into the big names or crimes and punishment will continue to be just for the little people

    steveg (354706)

  98. So here’s another Giuliani story to make you go “hmmmm” about.
    Our hacky friend, John Solomon, passed a hacky article to Giuliani’s people before it was published in The Hill, and that hacky piece made its way into the 50-page disinformation packet that Pompeo received from Giuliani. In a companion piece, the Daily Beast covers Mr. Solomon, where The Hill staff considered him a Hacky McHackface.
    Mr. Solomon is now at Grabien News, rated “Right biased based on story selection and sourcing that significantly favors the right. We also rate them borderline Questionable for factual reporting due to failed checks and use of sources that have very poor track records with fact checkers.” The hack is right where he should be.

    Paul Montagu (f74687)

  99. Thank you for sharing the opinion about this.

    192.168.l.l (5e72f1)

  100. You know how much garbage the daily beast has trudged, about a hundred topics montagu.

    Narciso (d1f714)

  101. Cnn and buzzfeed published the dossier which was based on info easily to vet as unreliable, msnbc had to fire brian ross, cnn their first russia unit, yet you still rely on them

    Narciso (d1f714)

  102. You know how much garbage the daily beast has trudged, about a hundred topics montagu.

    Narciso’s Five Stages of Commenting:
    1. Ad hominem
    2. Deflect! Deflect!
    3. But whatabout
    4. An obscure reference from three decades ago, badly spelled and grammared so you can hardly discern what it is, as if it’s supposed to mean something.
    5. Make s**t up.

    Paul Montagu (f74687)

  103. No thats your department, grammar critique is the cheapest blow, fleitz was right, this is as organic as a plastic plant.

    Narciso (d1f714)

  104. The daily beast that employs a criminal like kevin poulson, as noxious as assange is now.

    Narciso (d1f714)

  105. 26. DRJ (15874d) — 10/2/2019 @ 10:59 am

    Giuliani has a personal financial motive to use his and the President’s political influence/power to intervene in Ukraine — just like the Biden’s?

    In the first place, the motive for Giuliani would be much less – it’s not even, for him, like someone trying to short price of a stock.

    And in the second place what Biden is supposeds to have done (but couldn’t have, certainly not acting alone unless he was really good at conspiracy) is substantially control the Ukrainian investigation. That is NOT </b? what Trump and Giuliani were trying to do althogh Adam Schiff is trying to pretend that way.

    And in the third place, anything that came out of Ukraine wouldn't be of any real use to him unless it were true.

    Sammy Finkelman (00fff5)

  106. He covers up zylochevsky whole sale looting of ukraine through limmasol cyprus sammeh.

    Narciso (d1f714)

  107. Now you tell me kolomoiskys privat bank isnt much better, id agree with you.

    Narciso (d1f714)

  108. Like bois did for elizabeth holmes 10 years ago.

    Narciso (d1f714)

  109. How long do you pay some duds 100,000 a month for no access to the only thing they have to offer? One year? OK. But they stayed on for two.

    No, in some capacity, five years.

    Hunter Biden stayed on the Board of Directors of Burisma until the spring of 2019, when various media organizations got interested in him and when his father was about to declare is candidacy for president.

    When Joe Biden announced fr president, Hunter Biden was such a hot potato, (maybe for a couple o reasons) he wasn’t there, although a chair had been reserved for him.

    Burisma got something out of the deal or they would not have carried it on for that long.

    There’s insurance – political influence whch mght be available and needed. There’s political influence. Like advertising, you can say that half of it is wasted, but they don’t know which half. There’s possible value later.

    There is the appearance of corruption. Very useful in Ukraine.

    There’s simply needing a pliant Board of Directors. Once you’ve got someone, you’ll keep him – besides that would keep him loyal.

    I’m sure if we know enough, we;ll find out why.

    Sammy Finkelman (00fff5)

  110. No sammeh weve been assured theres nothing to see here.

    Narciso (d1f714)

  111. Another point the javelin sales are private, omb has nothing to do with transhipment, theres an office of foreign military sales that are involved in issuing licenses.

    Narciso (d1f714)

  112. 114. Narciso (d1f714) — 10/3/2019 @ 7:09 am

    weve been assured theres nothing to see here.

    Not exactly. We’ve been told there’s no Ukrainian crime (what would be the non-Ikrainian crime? Influence in Washington?)

    No Ukrainian crime because the Board of Directors can pay directors whatever they want, although Hunter Biden wasn’t just paid as a member of the Board of Directors, at least back around 2015.

    Of course, that doesn’t answer all questions in regard to the officers of the company. Enron paid ts employees whatever they wanted to pay them, but that wasn’t the issue. Still, it could be that the most they would have wanted from Hunter Biden himself is that he do nothing to inquire about or to interfere with whatever was going on. (at that stage it was probably mostly protecting the profits)

    Sammy Finkelman (00fff5)

  113. @narciso Probably at 113 – 114 by me (one message, in which I accidently sent only the name and time f=of someone ekse seems to have been automatically put into moderation. I didn’t know the software was that smart.)

    The sales of Javelins are private but Donald Trump is very much interested in trade surpluses and deficits.

    Zelensky was promising to buy more of them, like the question was would Ulraine be willing to spend the money. The assumption was the United States already authorized their export.

    It was treated separately from the question of money coming from the United States government for Ukraine to use to help its military.

    Sammy Finkelman (00fff5)

  114. Point being sammeh, that wasnt the relevant department,

    Narciso (d1f714)

  115. Not a complete explanation, or any explanation really as to what was going on with the hiring of Hunter Biden, but here’s one issue involving Burisma in 2015.

    This was published in December, 2015, and I think maybe after that, although heavy diplomacy continued for at least half a year, Joe Biden was removed from responsibility for dealing with Ukraine, because I read that was his last trip.

    This New York Tmes article said it was Joe Biden’s fifth trip. In his January 23, 2018 speech to the Council on Foreign Ralations Joe Biden claimed he’d been there 12 or 13 times when he aborted the press cnference or the loan guarantees:

    https://www.cfr.org/event/foreign-affairs-issue-launch-former-vice-president-joe-biden

    And I went over, I guess, the 12th, 13th time to Kiev.

    Anyway, here’s excerpts from the article:

    https://www.nytimes.com/2015/12/09/world/europe/corruption-ukraine-joe-biden-son-hunter-biden-ties.html

    Hunter Biden, 45, a former Washington lobbyist, joined the Burisma board in April 2014. That month, as part of an investigation into money laundering, British officials froze London bank accounts containing $23 million that allegedly belonged to Mr. Zlochevsky.

    Britain’s Serious Fraud Office, an independent government agency, specifically forbade Mr. Zlochevksy, as well as Burisma Holdings, the company’s chief legal officer and another company owned by Mr. Zlochevsky, to have any access to the accounts.

    But after Ukrainian prosecutors refused to provide documents needed in the investigation, a British court in January ordered the Serious Fraud Office to unfreeze the assets. The refusal by the Ukrainian prosecutor general’s office to cooperate was the target of a stinging attack by the American ambassador to Ukraine, Geoffrey R. Pyatt, who called out Burisma’s owner by name in a speech in September.

    “In the case of former Ecology Minister Mykola Zlochevsky, the U.K. authorities had seized $23 million in illicit assets that belonged to the Ukrainian people,” Mr. Pyatt said. Officials at the prosecutor general’s office, he added, were asked by the United Kingdom “to send documents supporting the seizure. Instead they sent letters to Zlochevsky’s attorneys attesting that there was no case against him. As a result, the money was freed by the U.K. court, and shortly thereafter the money was moved to Cyprus.”

    Mr. Pyatt went on to call for an investigation into “the misconduct” of the prosecutors who wrote the letters. In his speech, the ambassador did not mention Hunter Biden’s connection to Burisma.

    But Edward C. Chow, who follows Ukrainian policy at the Center for Strategic and International Studies, said the involvement of the vice president’s son with Mr. Zlochevsky’s firm undermined the Obama administration’s anticorruption message in Ukraine. ..

    …Kate Bedingfield, a spokeswoman for the vice president, said Hunter Biden’s business dealings had no impact on his father’s policy positions in connection with Ukraine….

    ….Vice President Biden has played a leading role in American policy toward Ukraine as Washington seeks to counter Russian intervention in Eastern Ukraine. This week’s visit was his fifth trip to Ukraine as vice president.

    Ms. Bedingfield said Hunter Biden had never traveled to Ukraine with his father. She also said that Ukrainian officials had never mentioned Hunter Biden’s role with Burisma to the vice president during any of his visits.

    Sammy Finkelman (00fff5)

  116. Trump just said a few minutes ago that he believes China should start an investigation into the Bidens.

    Well now…. it’s obvious to me that he has done this more than once and thinks doing so in the open will make all of that appear acceptable when it is revealed. With his supporters? Probably.

    So, we will now see if Republicans, especially in the Senate, are going to tolerate this overt abuse of power. We might as well throw away the Constitution if they do. Very scary stuff.

    noel (f22371)

  117. No collusion? Wanna bet.

    noel (f22371)

  118. Cant convict a democrat, like greg craig, dont even bother charging john podesta, yes you can go after small fry like blago, but not mcauliffe

    Narciso (d1f714)

  119. After the metaphorical dump that Trump just took on WH lawn, Trump should be referred as the soon-to-be-impeached president. Talk about doubling down, publicly enlisting both Ukraine and China to investigate the current 2020 Democrat frontrunner. Lest there be any room for doubt, this tweet removes it.
    I’ll never support anyone for president who is this corrupt, dishonest, unpatriotic and un-American. No Republican should. No American should.

    Paul Montagu (cbbfc4)

  120. Eh, italics.

    Paul Montagu (cbbfc4)

  121. Isnt that what the last administration did emlisting the uk australia et al.

    Narciso (d1f714)

  122. Theyve doubled up on the rubber glove for three years, and youve gone along with it. Well have some lotion joe.

    Narciso (d1f714)

  123. Isnt that what the last administration did emlisting the uk australia et al.
    That one is a combination of Stage 2 and Stage 3.

    Paul Montagu (cbbfc4)

  124. There’s literally nothing he can’t do that most people won’t support. yada yada 5th Avenue. Just don’t say G* D***n and the Christians are all fine. I’m guessing the Republicans in the Senate will vote to censure and that’s it.

    JRH (91ac4f)

  125. My hope —

    One of the Republican senators — and an unexpected one (not Romney or Sasse) — will suddenly just decide he can’t stand any more, he loves country more than his re-election — and will issue an emphatic statement that Trump’s overt conduct was clearly improper, and he/she is willing to think removal should be on the table, and hopes a full and fair trial will happen in the Senate.

    A few days pass, and that Senator’s polling does not take a plunge. It stays stable, or maybe ticks up a bit. It’s even above water with Republicans.

    And then, there is the rapid deluge. The rush to abandon Trump.

    That’s my hope. Events going down that way would really surprise me.

    Appalled (1a17de)

  126. @125: I’ll borrow from our good host:

    Paul “your mission, should you choose to accept it, is to find transparently unconvincing reasons to say ‘That’s different’ and dig in to defend those reasons no matter how stupid and obviously false they prove to be.”

    Munroe (53beca)

  127. Munroe —

    Answer directly, if you can. Is it right, proper, and above board for Trump to demand a foreign country to investigate an American citizen who happens to be a political opponent?

    Appalled (1a17de)

  128. “Is it right, proper, and above board…”
    Appalled (1a17de) — 10/3/2019 @ 10:42 am

    No. It’s not how I would go about this. There’s your answer.

    Is it right, proper and above board to use the power of government to spy on an opposing campaign?

    Is it right, proper and above board to skirt restrictions on FBI activities abroad against US citizens by using foreign intelligence services to do the dirty work?

    Answer directly, if you can.

    Munroe (53beca)

  129. Is it right, proper and above board to use the power of government to spy on an opposing campaign?

    That’s an assertion that’s on you to prove. Funny how Trump didn’t send his lapdog AG to chase that one down.

    Paul Montagu (cbbfc4)

  130. I will, the first one is not ok, and I look forward to some presentation of evidence about it.

    The second one I’m not sure what you’re talking about.

    Time123 (b87ded)

  131. Is it right, proper and above board to use the power of government to spy on an opposing campaign?

    No. Not usually. If you have evidence that the party is being financed significantly from abroad, however, that’s a violation of US laws that calls for the involvement of law enforcement.

    s it right, proper and above board to skirt restrictions on FBI activities abroad against US citizens by using foreign intelligence services to do the dirty work?

    This is trickier than a bright line yes or no. If a friendly nation gets wind of a foreign power looking to hack into US election, or distribute information into a US campaign, I think I would want to see collaboration between the FBI and the foreign intelligence services. And, police do often collaborate, because crime is international. I think what would bother me i if the foreign police were taking actions in the US on the behest of the FBI.

    Appalled (1a17de)

  132. “That’s an assertion that’s on you to prove.”
    Paul Montagu (cbbfc4) — 10/3/2019 @ 10:55 am

    Funny how you tossed that standard of proof in the dumpster the whole two years of the collusion investigation.

    (And, I’m guessing the Covington kids are still racists.)

    Munroe (53beca)

  133. you need to read Erick Erickson and Rod Dreher’s current word salad’s on the impeachment. Basically, its two very long wordy essays that say: “Orange man bad. But impeachment may be worse. Maybe”.

    At least Patterico takes a position!

    rcocean (1a839e)

  134. Funny how you tossed that standard of proof in the dumpster the whole two years of the collusion investigation.

    You’re making s**t up. I’ve always said that I haven’t seen evidence of collusion of Trump people colluding with Putin people.
    I was wrong about the Covington kids, and I’m man enough to admit it. Are you man enough to back up your assertion?

    Paul Montagu (cbbfc4)

  135. Isnt that what the last administration did…

    So now we’re well past thinking that our side should at least try to be more honest than we think the other side is. (In the past, Republicans knew that their side had to try harder in view of the mass media’s tendency to scrutinize them with extra zeal.)

    The new principle is: Because Dems have gotten away with bad things, therefore we want someone who’s quite open in badness — even telegraphing his offenses from the White House lawn.

    That may sound good from the standpoint of revenge, but I don’t see it working well as a long-term political doctrine.

    Radegunda (13e3ce)

  136. the Chinese stole 20 million confidential records, on biden’s watch from the omb, did bohai investments have anything to do with it, did cgn that devon archer was partnered with, whose employee stole nuclear secrets, the compromised intel networks, back in 2012,

    narciso (d1f714)

  137. If you can’t investigate or break into their computers or legally get dirt on your opponents here in the US, then get a foreign country to do it. Simple and effective.

    The New and Improved Watergate.

    noel (f22371)

  138. that’s what mi6 and Australian intelligence and Italian was tasked to do, mr. magoo is more observant,

    narciso (d1f714)

  139. Funny how you tossed that standard of proof in the dumpster the whole two years of the collusion investigation.

    what can i say, Trump looked guilty. The investigation failed to find sufficient evidence that he was involved in the crimes Russia committed. I’m actually glad he wasn’t involved and I’m wiling to accept the findings of the report.

    Still waiting on the IG report on the start of the investigation. So far we know they didn’t think Comey committed a crime with his memo crap.

    I’d like to get the rest of the evidence out there, so we can stop with the conspiracy theories of the partially insane.

    Time123 (b87ded)

  140. because fusion’s endless bucket of (redacted) get thrown out day after day, judge Jackson does handstands to prevent greg craig from being convicted from fixing a case in Ukraine, the same judge Jackson, who cracks roger stones knuckles, for demanding they show the actual forensics in this case, dan coats picks Atkinson who was a party to the fisa fraud as ig, Rosenstein apparently was colluding to appoint mueller based on those ridiculous leaked memos,

    narciso (d1f714)

  141. and the paste eating tool of the subprime bank (that’s biden) wants his coke addicted, burisma and bohai bought and paid for, child support dodging son on the trail, just to shove it in our face,

    narciso (d1f714)

  142. 120. noel (f22371) — 10/3/2019 @ 8:55 am

    Trump just said a few minutes ago that he believes China should start an investigation into the Bidens.

    And I suppose into the Clintons as well – they should really examine all those illegal campaign contributions coming from China that were made in the 1996 presidential campaign.

    And they should look into industrial espionage. And stealing American militar secrets. Why not?

    It’s a typical crazy thing for Donald Trump to say:

    He’s pretending that the government of China is honest.

    He’s got to know better.

    He manages to take this position, while at the same time , with trade, he treats the government as cotrolling everything. Of course, Donald Trumo treats the government of India and Japan too and Germany and France as controlling everything abut trade, too, so he’s not saying anything special about China there.

    If any people were being corrupted by any persons in China, they were being corruoted by the government of China! Or by people who run the government. It’s entirely run from the top down.

    This is an absolutely crazy thing for Donald Trump to say. I mean Xi Jinping was in charge the whole time.

    But if you want to go and pretend “the tsar doesn’t know,” it makes sense.

    Well now…. it’s obvious to me that he has done this more than once and thinks doing so in the open will make all of that appear acceptable when it is revealed. With his supporters? Probably.

    No, it’s just talk. Crazy talk. Like prosecuting Adam Schiff. It’s aimed at voters ignorant about legalities.

    Sammy Finkelman (00fff5)

  143. Noel:

    So, we will now see if Republicans, especially in the Senate, are going to tolerate this overt abuse of power. We might as well throw away the Constitution if they do. Very scary stuff.

    Nobody expects China to do an investigation. Even the kind of “blame some small person” investigation that Vladimir Putin sometimes does. I think he did that also in the Magnitsky case.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sergei_Magnitsky

    An independent investigatory body, the Moscow Public Oversight Commission, indicated in December 2009 that “psychological and physical pressure was exerted upon” Magnitsky.[21] One of the Commissioners said that while she had first believed his death was due to medical negligence, she had developed “the frightening feeling that it was not negligence but that it was, to some extent, as terrible as it is to say, a premeditated murder.”[15]

    An official investigation was ordered in November 2009 by Russian president Dmitry Medvedev.[22] Russian authorities had not concluded their own investigation as of December 2009, but 20 senior prison officials had already been fired as a result of the case.[16] In December 2009, in two separate decrees, Medvedev fired Alexander Piskunov, deputy head of the Federal Penitentiary Service, and signed a law forbidding the jailing of individuals who are suspected of tax crimes.[23] Magnitsky’s death is also believed to be linked to the firing of Major-General Anatoli Mikhalkin, formerly the head of the Moscow division of the tax crimes department of the Interior Ministry.[24] Mikhalkin was among those accused by Magnitsky of taking part in fraud.

    …However, investigators looking into the death of Magnitsky cleared Oleg F. Silchenko, who oversaw the investigation of Magnitsky, of any wrongdoing. Charges of professional negligence against Dr. Litvinova were dropped due to statute of limitations issues.[30] On 23 December 2012, as the trial neared its end, the prosecutor conducting the trial against Dr. Kratov suddenly reversed course and sought acquittal, citing no direct connection between Kratov’s actions and Magnitsky’s death.[31] On 28 December 2012, a Tverskoy court found Kratov not guilty of negligence causing Magnitsky’s death,[32] thus complying with the prosecution’s request.[33]

    Sammy Finkelman (00fff5)

  144. According to a new Monmouth University poll, only 4-in-10 Republicans believe Trump mentioned Biden in his infamous call with Zelensky – despite there being direct proof of it in the transcript Trump himself released…

    [I]n the big lie there is always a certain force of credibility; because the broad masses of a nation are always more easily corrupted in the deeper strata of their emotional nature than consciously or voluntarily; and thus in the primitive simplicity of their minds they more readily fall victims to the big lie than the small lie, since they themselves often tell small lies in little matters but would be ashamed to resort to large-scale falsehoods. It would never come into their heads to fabricate colossal untruths, and they would not believe that others could have the impudence to distort the truth so infamously. Even though the facts which prove this to be so may be brought clearly to their minds, they will still doubt and waver and will continue to think that there may be some other explanation. For the grossly impudent lie always leaves traces behind it, even after it has been nailed down, a fact which is known to all expert liars in this world and to all who conspire together in the art of lying.
    – A. Hitler, Mein Kampf

    Dave (1bb933)

  145. the issue was about crowdstrike, paste eater was an oversight,

    https://thefederalist.com/2019/10/03/its-not-a-crime-for-trump-to-ask-china-and-ukraine-to-investigate-biden/

    narciso (d1f714)

  146. only 4-in-10 Republicans believe Trump mentioned Biden in his infamous call with Zelensky – despite there being direct proof of it in the transcript Trump himself released…

    It;s not a fair question.

    Many people are not familiar wth the details, and if you ask aquestion, then people reason that the answer could be no,

    Trump mentioned Bde and hisson once, Zlennsly misunderstood him to be interested in Borisma, and Zelensly also was the first one to mention Giuliani. Trump was largely incoherent.

    Sammy Finkelman (00fff5)

  147. Zelensky, spelled Zelenskyy (with two “y”‘s) by the federal government, which has its own unique spellings, like Usama bin Laden when everybody else uses Osama bin Laden.

    Sammy Finkelman (00fff5)

  148. 151. That they met is in he whistleblower complaint. He says they told him how to deal with Trump’s request. Which sounds like they told him to ignore it.

    Sammy Finkelman (00fff5)

  149. 149. Do you think one of the greatest liars in history (although he is more notable for other things) would tell the truth about lying?

    Sammy Finkelman (00fff5)

  150. Zylochevsky sammeh is a rival to zelenskys powerblock largely comprised by kolomoisky.

    Narciso (d1f714)

  151. #129 “Is it right, proper, and above board for Trump to demand a foreign country to investigate an American citizen who happens to be a political opponent?”
    I answer yes.
    If you are pursuing justice and happen upon a rival so be it. Pursuing answers to 2016 election interference? Check.
    Pursuing answers to corruption inquiry where the VP might have been trading influence for his son… sure… if only to clear Bidens good name of course

    steveg (354706)

  152. We CANNOT have open and fair elections if the sitting President, with all of the power of that office, is allowed to induce foreign governments into “investigating” his challengers. Not possible.

    Trump defenders know this. Republican Congressmen are especially aware. They are willing to discard free elections for Donald Trump? Donald Trump?

    Unthinkable disloyalty to their oath.

    noel (f22371)

  153. Reposting here, since is the most recent Ukraine thread —

    “Trump supporters. Is the below an accurate reading of the Trump theory of the Deep State conspiracy? I realize there is more than a little snark in the piece — but is it generally accurate? If not, what dos this guy have wrong?

    https://thebulwark.com/this-is-what-reality-looks-like-from-inside-trump-world/

    Appalled (1a17de)

  154. Can Joe Biden (or Elizabeth Warren now) go to a federal court, perhaps even the Supreme Court, to ask for a desist order that would be binding on the President. If the Congress is too cowardly to abide by the Constitution, is there another legal remedy??

    noel (f22371)

  155. There are hundreds of desist orders out on Trump. The one by the ASPCA is the most disturbing.

    nk (dbc370)

  156. If the Congress is too cowardly to abide by the Constitution, is there another legal remedy??

    Unfortunately, no.

    President Trump is above the law, and can do whatever he wants.

    I have an Article 2, where I have the right to do whatever I want as president.
    President Trump King Donald of Orange (July 23, 2019)

    Dave (1bb933)

  157. Note that the infamous call to President Zelensky of the Ukraine took place only two days after Trump publicly claimed “the right to do whatever I want as president”.

    Dave (1bb933)

  158. @158, The article has some good points but wow does that straw man burn easy.

    Doesn’t matter anyway. What they believe is that Media bad, Trump good, and whatever facts align with that are the accurate ones.

    Time123 (dba73f)

  159. 159.

    noel (f22371) — 10/4/2019 @ 6:32 am
    159.We CANNOT have open and fair elections if the sitting President, with all of the power of that office, is allowed to induce foreign governments into “investigating” his challengers. Not possible.

    No, no no. Damaging information as to he character of someone running for office should be received and never ignored. THAT WOULD ONLY PROTECT WELL HONED CORRUPTION.

    It would be a terrible precedent to say that if someone conveys to a political opponent of some person running for office (and who would be more interested than a political opponent?) that his opponent is corrupt, that matter cannot be made public and looked into. That would only protect corruption.

    But at the same time the person following it up has to be held accountable (in public opinion) for his judgement as to the probable truth pf the alegations and how he pursues it. Was it reasonable? Did he do his homework? Is he asking for an honest investigation, or somethng else?

    Donald Trump was not asking for an “investigation” but a real honest-to-goodness investigation, without the quotation marks. And he wasn’t asking very hard. He wanted to take advantage of what looked like Zelensky’s goodwill. Nor was he asking for all possible opponents to be investigated.

    And his request has to be judged on the basis of whether there were good grounds for it or not.

    What Donald Trump wanted Zelensky to do was to check into that story that Joe Biden stopped a prosecution. His exact words:

    The other thing: There’s a lot of talk about Biden’s son, that Biden stopped the prosecution and a lot of people want to find out about that so whatever you can do with the Attorney General would be great. Biden went around bragging that he stopped the prosecution so if you can look into it … It sounds horrible to me.

    Now Biden did not go around bragging that he stopped a prosecution. He bragged, elaborating on his story as time went on, that he forced Ukraine to get rid of a prosecutor who wasn’t pursuing corruption.

    Donald Trump has to be critcized on maybe starting something without having his facts straight, and if you want, the possibiliy that the people he contacted might not conduct an hoenst inquiry, bt not on the bare fact of wanting to check out whether an American politician did something unethical.

    Sammy Finkelman (00fff5)

  160. Trump encouraged the Russians to do it and they interfered with our last election. They broke into Democrats computers to do it. He is continuing to encourage such abuses. Shame on all of you who refuse to stand up to it.

    noel (f22371)

  161. “Damaging information as to he character of someone running for office should be received and never ignored.” We’ll see what you think, Sammy, when the Russians break into your computer to get that information. Or manufacture it, which is another of their methods.

    Yea, right on.

    noel (f22371)

  162. 165 Trump encouraged the Russians to do it and they interfered with our last election. They broke into Democrats computers to do it. He is continuing to encourage such abuses. Shame on all of you who refuse to stand up to it.

    noel (f22371) — 10/4/2019 @ 11:43 am

    That was after the DNC was hacked noel…

    whembly (fd57f6)

  163. Trump is still encouraging the Russians to interfere and you know this.

    noel (f22371)

  164. Donald Trump has to be critcized on maybe starting something without having his facts straight, and if you want, the possibiliy that the people he contacted might not conduct an hoenst inquiry, bt not on the bare fact of wanting to check out whether an American politician did something unethical.

    Good take Sammy…

    We can certainly pass judgement that Trump isn’t handling this well… but what grates me is that Trump critics automatically takes the most uncharitable interpretation possible due to their own bias and refuse to own up to their own bias, especially since there are other more logic rationale.

    whembly (fd57f6)

  165. 168 Trump is still encouraging the Russians to interfere and you know this.

    noel (f22371) — 10/4/2019 @ 12:04 pm

    I don’t know this. Care to elaborate?

    whembly (fd57f6)

  166. Oh, perhaps you have missed him calling on several countries to investigate his opponents. There are reports now that he told the Russians that he was not concerned about their interference….. and its OBVIOUS he isn’t.

    noel (f22371)

  167. @97.Yes. They do. Back in the day, my late father gave me a call to let me know his Ohio-based firm had added a fella with zero experience in the oil and gas biz to the BOD of his firm– some guy named Neil Armstrong.

    Yes, that Neil Armstrong. Test pilot, aviator, first man on the moon. Even I asked why, given he had zero experience in the global energy biz. The answer was basic– dooropener; Buckeye company adds Wapakoneta, Ohio’s favorite son– and man welcomed worldwide to BoD.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  168. It is a violation of your rights as an American citizen for the government, especially the President, to send the communists and oligarchs and crooked politicians around the world after you. You really need to have that explained?

    noel (f22371)

  169. Yes you hire a burnt british agent who worked for oligarchs, to mine nuggets from dubious sourcing

    Narciso (d1f714)

  170. 171 Oh, perhaps you have missed him calling on several countries to investigate his opponents. There are reports now that he told the Russians that he was not concerned about their interference….. and its OBVIOUS he isn’t.

    noel (f22371) — 10/4/2019 @ 12:08 pm

    That’s very different from the DNC hacks and no… asking for help for investigations isn’t election meddling.

    POTUS has wide latitude to conduct investigations… the issue at hand is this: is there a predicate (or belief of a crime has been committed) strong enough to warrant investigation AND deal with any political backlash due to appearances of improprieties?

    Remember, the US has agreements with these countries to assist in these sorts of investigations.

    Biden’s (and his son) dealings is obviously shady as all heck… there may not be any laws broken (ie, Burisma can pay whomever, whatever they want), but please don’t ask me to suspend my disbelief that nothing could possibly be shady about it.

    This right here is the ugly aspect of politics, in that its very unseemly, unwise and characteristics of gutter politics. If you don’t like it, you and other voters can simply not vote for him because of that… but I think it’s a bit asinine to consider it impeachment worthy as it can totally impact future POTUS dealing with foreign powers.

    That’s why the origin of the Russian Collusion investigations is so problematic… we still don’t know the predicate of the supposed crimes that were committed that launched the investigation.

    whembly (fd57f6)

  171. The Attorney General of the United States has NO BUSINESS getting involved in political manipulation of foreign leaders to gather dirt on political opponents. Neither does the Secretary of State.

    Everyone knows this.

    noel (f22371)

  172. 177. whembly (fd57f6) — 10/4/2019 @ 12:26 pm

    the issue at hand is this: is there a predicate (or belief of a crime has been committed) strong enough to warrant investigation AND deal with any political backlash due to appearances of improprieties?

    What the issue shold be is:

    Is there a predicate or belief of a crime or something improper strong enough to raise the issue AND would what the other country do be honest and fair?

    NOT Good or bad, is a foreign country being asked to do something with relevance to a plitical candidate or prominent personality?

    A president gets political backlash, and even consideration of impeachemnt if there is something wrong with what he did. We should leave it at that.

    Biden’s (and his son) dealings is obviously shady as all heck… there may not be any laws broken (ie, Burisma can pay whomever, whatever they want), but please don’t ask me to suspend my disbelief that nothing could possibly be shady about it.

    The question is if there are other hidden facts.

    Also Biden lied about a lot of what he said about his key role in getting that prosecutor (Viktor Shokin) replaced, and even the emphasis, if any, that the Obama Administration put on replacing him, because Obama had a whole lot of conditions for Ukraine getting the third $1 billon loan guarantee.

    it’s a bit asinine to consider it impeachment worthy as it can totally impact future POTUS dealing with foreign powers.

    The danger here is that it will be established as a kind of principle that political candidates, or incumbents seeking re-election, should ignore and disregard any news or information that comes over the transom from people in other countries about something untoward that was done by their opponents. Or not ask for more detail.

    Now just who and what would such a principle protect?

    Sammy Finkelman (00fff5)

  173. noel @178.

    The Attorney General of the United States has NO BUSINESS getting involved in political manipulation of foreign leaders to gather dirt on political opponents.

    And that’s not what he did, or was going to do. Barr hadn’t even gotten involved in the Biden angle at all.

    Sammy Finkelman (00fff5)

  174. 176 The Attorney General of the United States has NO BUSINESS getting involved in political manipulation of foreign leaders to gather dirt on political opponents. Neither does the Secretary of State.

    Everyone knows this.

    noel (f22371) — 10/4/2019 @ 12:42 pm

    AG Barr investigating the origin of the Russian Collusions perpetuated by Obama offices is EXACTLY the kinds of things he should be doing.

    Not sure what you mean by Secretary of State though…

    whembly (fd57f6)

  175. The danger here is that it will be established as a kind of principle that political candidates, or incumbents seeking re-election, should ignore and disregard any news or information that comes over the transom from people in other countries about something untoward that was done by their opponents. Or not ask for more detail.

    Now just who and what would such a principle protect?

    Sammy Finkelman (00fff5) — 10/4/2019 @ 12:45 pm

    Indeed. That is the danger.

    Or put it another way – should politicians (running or not) be immunized from investigations (here or abroad) EVEN if the POTUS is a member of the opposition party?

    whembly (fd57f6)

  176. They’re investigating Pompeo.

    https://www.nytimes.com/2019/10/02/us/politics/pompeo-ukraine-impeachment.html

    But the questions are swirling about what role Mr. Pompeo may have played, if any, in Mr. Giuliani’s outreach campaign to top Ukrainian government officials. The effort bypassed career State Department diplomats, and Mr. Pompeo is nothing if not territorial — meaning he most likely would have objected to such dealings unless he was under instructions to allow them to proceed.

    Sammy Finkelman (00fff5)

  177. All of them knew that Trump was trying to get dirt on the Bidens around the world. Barr and Pompeo too. Give me a break.

    noel (f22371)

  178. I don’t agree with Biden much. I am a Pro-life, pro-defense, pro-capitalism Republican. But what Trump’s doing is denying him due process by using foreign governments to hunt him down. He is attempting a Watergate by proxy.

    What is so depressing is how so many of my friends refuse to see it. Its a very dangerous situation when we deny Democrats a fair election.

    noel (f22371)

  179. a small part, now the source of the investigation, mifsud, halper downer, all with us or uk intel connections are the main thing,

    narciso (d1f714)

  180. Washington is a bunch of glass houses built on a driving range

    steveg (354706)

  181. right, as if Obama had not nearly delivered a fatal blow to our country,

    narciso (d1f714)

  182. Jeff goldsteins new twitter presence, in the lun

    Narciso (d1f714)


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