Patterico's Pontifications

8/3/2019

Multiple Shooting Victims in El Paso (UPDATE: Dayton Mass Shooting)

Filed under: Crime — DRJ @ 12:50 pm



[Headline from DRJ]

El Paso Times:

A shooting at the Walmart in the Cielo Vista Mall area has left multiple people dead, an El Paso police officer said Saturday.

An El Paso police spokesman said a suspect is in custody and the shooting has ended.

He said there are two scenes being investigated: at the Walmart and the nearby mall.

The first alert came at 11:03 AM MST. The Walmart and Cielo Vista Mall are in East El Paso on/near IH-10 and Hawkins, just South of the airport and Fort Bliss.

This is a breaking news story and early reports are subject to change. Our thoughts are with the victims and their families.

UPDATE: 9 killed in Ohio in second US mass shooting within 24 hours

A gunman wearing body armor and carrying extra magazines opened fire in a popular nightlife area of Dayton, Ohio, killing nine and injuring dozens, authorities say, in the second U.S. mass shooting in less than 24 hours.

Dayton police patrolling the area responded in less than a minute to the shooting, which unfolded around 1 a.m. Sunday on the streets of the Oregon District, Dayton Mayor Nan Whaley said at a press conference.

Whaley said if the police had not responded so quickly, “hundreds of people in the Oregon District could be dead today.”

— DRJ

261 Responses to “Multiple Shooting Victims in El Paso (UPDATE: Dayton Mass Shooting)”

  1. The updated story says the was one shooter with a rifle, and the shooting took place in the Dillard’s at the mall.

    DRJ (15874d)

  2. But they are investigating two scenes — the mall and the Walmart.

    DRJ (15874d)

  3. MSNBC: 18 taken to hospitals.

    DRJ (15874d)

  4. CNN: 22 taken to hospitals, and Mayor says 3 are in custody.

    DRJ (15874d)

  5. Walmart tweet:

    Walmart
    @Walmart

    We’re in shock over the tragic events at Cielo Vista Mall in El Paso, where store 2201 & club 6502 are located. We’re praying for the victims, the community & our associates, as well as the first responders. We’re working closely with law enforcement & will update as appropriate.

    2:14 PM · Aug 3, 2019

    DRJ (15874d)

  6. Pick one:

    ☐ Antifa
    ☐ BLM
    ☐ Illegal Alien
    ☐ White Supremacist
    ☐ Jihadi
    ☐ Disgruntled Employee
    ☐ Messed Up Kid
    ☐ Misanthropic Gun Nut

    Dave (1bb933)

  7. Fox News quoting Lt Gov Dan Patrick: shooter is a 21 year old man. It appears the shooting was at Walmart or maybe a Sam’s. The Walmart tweet suggests there is a Sam’s Club there, too.

    DRJ (15874d)

  8. Could be military, Dave, although he might fall under one of your categories.

    DRJ (15874d)

  9. Yeah, it occurred to me that I left out

    ☐ PTSD Vet

    Dave (1bb933)

  10. There is a Sam’s right next door to that Walmart, DRJ. They share a parking lot.

    Leviticus (fb75e2)

  11. There are several reports of more than one person with a gun. I wonder if those extra shooters are citizens who attempted to defend themselves.

    Kevin M (21ca15)

  12. Thanks, Leviticus. The El Paso Times’ link shows the police at the Walmart so it was probably there. The El Paso police, SWAT, etc., all responded per the reports, but the photos show “Department of Homeland Security Police” helping to secure the scene. Probably it was all hands on deck but it is strange to see immigration police at a local shooting.

    DRJ (15874d)

  13. #6: Over at the WaPo comments section they are sure it’s a white supremacist who forgot to wear his MAGA hat.

    Kevin M (21ca15)

  14. Good idea, Kevin 11. I would expect that.

    DRJ (15874d)

  15. Dave (1bb933) — 8/3/2019 @ 1:07 pm

    Way too many.

    1. white bigot
    2. guns
    3. someone did something

    Munroe (4bb078)

  16. Probably it was all hands on deck but it is strange to see immigration police at a local shooting.

    DHS Security usually protects federal government facilities, both within and without DHS. I have seen them at Social Security offices. Since there is a mall attached, they may have had a client there.

    Kevin M (21ca15)

  17. People are saying these shootings are way up under Trump. Dunno about that, seems pretty level.

    But you know what IS down? Jihadist attacks. Way way down. Probably coincidence.

    Kevin M (21ca15)

  18. Another saturday another shooting. Notice how many walmart shooting. The democrats running are too gutless to offer arresting nra leaders for accessory to murder starting with wayne lapierre.

    lany (70e80f)

  19. The are federal offices all over El Paso, including immigration offices very close to this location. So I understand why (and am glad) they responded to a mass casualty incident, but it still surprised me to see the logo.

    DRJ (15874d)

  20. In addition, I think these are tense times in Texas border towns. We need a strong police presence.

    DRJ (15874d)

  21. Probably coincidence.

    Last I heard, the FBI is a treasonous organization, so it must be.

    Dave (1bb933)

  22. #6: Over at the WaPo comments section they are sure it’s a white supremacist who forgot to wear his MAGA hat.

    Kevin M (21ca15) — 8/3/2019 @ 1:23 pm

    It’s always stomach turning how people try to find the political upside to these tragedies before the dead are even cold.

    Dustin (6d7686)

  23. Heal thyself, Dan Patrick. But maybe he knows more than any of us posting:

    http://www.foxnews.com/media/texas-lt-gov-tells-antifa-to-stay-out-of-el-paso-after-walmart-shooting

    urbanleftbehind (763835)

  24. That said, the locale and tensions are also reminiscent of the James Huberty 1984 San Ysidro shooting, from which Deputy Peterson from Broward picked up pointers.

    urbanleftbehind (763835)

  25. does it matter which brand of evil, is operating here, rhetorical, of course it does, that’s how the shooters reify their own importance,

    narciso (d1f714)

  26. Just another day of gun play in the good ol’ USA.

    … and Putin smiled.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  27. you know guns are largely banned in Russia, don’t you disco, advantage czar.

    narciso (d1f714)

  28. Fox Producer on Twitter: Young boy tells reporter: “My Mom is dead.”

    DRJ (15874d)

  29. More from same Twitter feed.

    DRJ (15874d)

  30. Heavy.com has speculation about the shooter. It also says the shooter started in the parking lot and then went into the Walmart store.

    DRJ (15874d)

  31. Why is a fox reporter interviewing a child who just lost his mother? Why is he sharing that? I guess it will get some good ratings.

    Dustin (6d7686)

  32. because cnn and MSNBC wasn’t close enough, ‘it bleeds it leads’ is a staple of local news, we don’t want to confront the nature of evil in the world, it’s unsophisticated,

    narciso (d1f714)

  33. @31. The same reason one of the Foxy ‘hosts’ called these events “a fad.” You know, like a hula-hoop.

    It’s a network of and for idiots.
    ___________

    Back in the day, decades ago, when we moved to the UK, literally the very first question asked by the Brits we met at a ‘get-to-know’ gathering was– ‘Where do you Americans keep your guns?’ When told we had none- they were genuinely surprised; ‘All Americans have guns,’ was the response. Have never forgotten that. This is how others in the world picture America. Through our exported culture– and news.

    Aside from the obvious debate on the issue– it was and is… embarrassing.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  34. Why is a fox reporter interviewing a child who just lost his mother? Why is he sharing that? I guess it will get some good ratings.

    Dustin (6d7686) — 8/3/2019 @ 2:26 pm

    Advocaat (185207)

  35. At least that’s a good singer, Advocat.

    Dustin (6d7686)

  36. I thought you were going for don Henley’s ‘dirty laundry’, what is the answer not naming the never do well, doesn’t seem to work,

    narciso (d1f714)

  37. Ot (real mad, and no I don’t want my “winnings” but several grains of salt with anything 8chan) but re music links,Had Joe Wilson brought a boom box with this, it would have been cool but short-lived due to cease and desist, but one day a pop or hip hopper will shock us and let the Rs use a song or two.

    urbanleftbehind (847a06)

  38. 19 dead, 40 injured. The kid was 21 from Dallas and had an anti “race mixing” manifesto he posted.

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (6e7a1c)

  39. Terrible news. It would be good if the citizenry caught a break and mental defectives like this guy were engaged before the carnage ensued.

    Colonel Haiku (951ecf)

  40. All the oversight and censorship that goes on, pay attention when this sort of schiff is posted and report it to the authorities.

    Colonel Haiku (951ecf)

  41. Ha also blames automation and says his beef pre-dates Trump’s presidency.

    Won’t stop Trump from being blamed.

    It is to be truly mad to think killing innocent people will further your cause, just like the Manson Family trying to start a race war.

    harkin (58d012)

  42. “He”

    harkin (58d012)

  43. Damnit, 42 ,then wonder boy Yang is the st1raw with his fifteen minutes this week.

    urbanleftbehind (fb94d4)

  44. No, if he focused on circumcision, well them hed be in trouble.

    Narciso (72d34b)

  45. The Political Presser: thoughts and prayers, thoughts and prayers, thoughts and prayers…

    What’s for dinner?

    Lou: “Hey Abbott, what makes a balloon go up? Bud: “Hot air.” Lou: “What’s holding you down?” – Abbott & Costello routine, 1941

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  46. Well one can ban knives like in the UK, can you not push your little hobby horse for a day.

    Narciso (72d34b)

  47. There is so much I don’t understand about this. I can’t understand why he would travel 650 miles to kill families with children shopping for school supplies. I can’t understand why he was able to shoot for 20 minutes (I hope that isn’t true.) I can’t understand where security was and why no one there had a gun. I can’t understand hate and anger and evil like this.

    DRJ (15874d)

  48. “He wasn’t from El Paso,” crowed the pols at their presser.

    As if that makes any difference. To the grieving… and the dead.

    Idiots.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  49. It does seem odd there should have been security, unless they were targeted force.

    Narciso (72d34b)

  50. Mexican nationals among the dead.

    __________

    50. Security? Texas has open carry/concealed laws; estimates are that there were 3,000 people in that Walmart… so either none were ‘good guys with guns’ or those that were, were smart enough to run like hell.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  51. I can’t understand why he would travel 650 miles to kill families with children shopping for school supplies.

    Well, he specifically said in his manifesto that he didn’t want to kill “Americans”, he wanted to kill the invaders. This mall is in a heavily Hispanic area of El Paso, an is a place were Mexican nationals specifically come across the border to shop.

    He screed is typical alt-right, beige power crap.

    This attack is a response to the Hispanic invasion of Texas. They are the instigators, not me. I am simply defending my country from cultural and ethnic replacement brought on by an invasion.

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (6e7a1c)

  52. And hes got all sorts of carp about sustainability, probably admires communist chiny, typical nutbar.

    Narciso (72d34b)

  53. “And hes got all sorts of carp about sustainability, probably admires communist chiny, typical nutbar.”

    Only 2 types of people post on 8chan: white supremacists and pedophiles.

    Davethulhu (bc6fa6)

  54. That isn’t exclusively in an area for Mexican nationals. It is on I-10 near Ft Bliss. Anyone could be there.

    DRJ (15874d)

  55. the company that owns the mall made it a gun free zone. so the law abiding Texans that usually conceal carry could not.

    kaf (bd613c)

  56. I’m not arguing about his motives, only that he didn’t really care if he targeted Americans or Mexicans.

    DRJ (15874d)

  57. Walmart isn’t part of the Mall. It is next to it. Maybe it is gun free, too, but most Walmarts have security and it is not uncommon for people to have guns in cars, and reports say this started in the parking lot.

    DRJ (15874d)

  58. Hes a psycho like Manson who thought the white album told him he should kill people.

    Narciso (72d34b)

  59. Again, he’s the one saying he didn’t want to kill Americans.

    Even if other non-immigrant targets would have a greater impact, I can’t bring myself to kill my fellow Americans.

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (6e7a1c)

  60. @59. Yet you admire the Walrus; Gu-Gu-Gumbo. Let it be.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  61. Maybe it is gun free, too, but most Walmarts have security and it is not uncommon for people to have guns in cars, and reports say this started in the parking lot.

    Are Mexican-Americans as likely to own guns as non-Latinos?

    This may have been an area with people (Mexican shoppers, people without legal status) less able to defend themselves than the average Texan.

    Dave (1bb933)

  62. @56. They interviewed a fella who was packing a piece who decided to stop to help a wounded victim. So there was at least one there.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  63. There are “average Texans” who live and work in that area. I know some whose families have lived in Texas longer than mine have, and I go back 4 generations. I don’t understand why there were no people with guns. Maybe the panic, or they were mostly women and children, or ?

    DRJ (15874d)

  64. @64. See #63. Yes, that does seem odd. CNN reported the response time by the police was 6 minutes–which may sound fast but was likely an eternity for those shoppers under fire. It’s all so awful.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  65. As I suggested in #11, there IS evidence of armed resistance. But a handgun versus a rifle outdoors has a poor prognosis.

    If it was an AR-15 (as it appears in photos) with non-fragmenting ammunition, it will go through car doors. If it WAS fragmenting ammo, it won’t penetrate nearly as much, but it will tear up people a lot more.

    Kevin M (21ca15)

  66. I note that authorities identify the shooter as a “white man.” Don’t have a problem with that, but I wish that they were less selective when the make that kind of identification.

    I doubt there will be any problem figuring out his motive.

    Kevin M (21ca15)

  67. Frankly, I am surprised his surrender was accepted. Yeah, I know, professionalism, the Rule of Law, etc. I think we’d do better in these cases with disappearing them. There’s a point when we are civilized to a fetish.

    Kevin M (21ca15)

  68. As of now, there are 20 killed and 26 wounded. Six (6) of the wounded are Mexican nationals.

    DRJ (15874d)

  69. It’s better the police did not have to shoot. There had to still be a lot of people in the store. The last thing we want is people hurt by friendly fire.

    DRJ (15874d)

  70. The gun nuts have already started with their thoughts and prayers bullish*t. when they are not running down to the gun store to buy more guns. Looks like we have to wait to 2025 when AOC takes office as president to “deal” with the nra.

    lany (8a2ba3)

  71. Unless he wasn’t caught in the store. Where was he caught?

    DRJ (15874d)

  72. Are Mexican-Americans as likely to own guns as non-Latinos? – Dave (1bb933) — 8/3/2019 @ 6:17 pm

    Wow, just wow.

    To answer your question, yes we are just likely to own guns as any other law-abiding group of people. I grew up in a family that had 8 firearms from .22 to 30-06. And we were considered unremarkable for it by all around us.

    felipe (023cc9)

  73. DRJ (15874d) — 8/3/2019 @ 6:24 pm

    To me, the most apparent reason why no one had a firearm was that no one felt in danger. My father carried a .38 S&W only whenever he was around a large amount of cash. He even thwarted one would-be robber by simply taking it out and giving a quick look at the ammo.

    felipe (023cc9)

  74. He’s an 8chan white nationalist nut, inspired by the Christchurch massacre. Heavy.com:

    That manifesto, which has been seen by Heavy.com but not verified as belonging to the suspect, makes negative references to Hispanic immigration into the U.S., criticizes both major political parties in the U.S. but the writer stresses that he supports some in the Republican Party in terms of immigration policies, the writer also makes reference to alleged Christchurch mosque shooter, Brenton Tarrant.

    bellingcat has a thorough rundown:
    https://www.bellingcat.com/news/americas/2019/08/04/the-el-paso-shooting-and-the-gamification-of-terror/
    An important conclusion:

    The most important takeaways from the El Paso shooting are twofold:
    8chan’s /pol board continues to deliberately radicalize mass shooters.
    The act of massacring innocents has been gamified.

    I’ve said this before: 8chan needs to be classified as a domestic terrorist organization and should be obliterated.

    Paul Montagu (abf2de)

  75. We should know better now, felipe. I thought we learned that lesson after the Luby’s shooting.

    DRJ (15874d)

  76. There were 3 Mexican nationals killed plus the 6 wounded, so 9 out of 46 were Mexicans. It is wrong to do this, or to target foreigners, or to target skin color. It is all wrong.

    DRJ (15874d)

  77. @64 There almost certainly were people there who had guns, but being under live fire is very different than target shooting and most people who own a gun (and even a great many people who actively carry) don’t even put in enough time target shooting to have good enough muscle memory to be able to do shoot reliably under adrenaline overload in a situation in which they or their loved ones are actively in danger.

    Nic (896fdf)

  78. I think most stores use only unarmed security, whose main job is to protect from shoplifting and coordinate response when customers have a bad fall or similar on the store premises. I don’t know specifically what Walmart’s policies are.

    Kishnevi (83552a)

  79. Wow, just wow.

    To answer your question, yes we are just likely to own guns as any other law-abiding group of people. I grew up in a family that had 8 firearms from .22 to 30-06. And we were considered unremarkable for it by all around us.

    Good for you, but note I didn’t ask “Do any Mexican-Americans own firearms?” but rather “Are Mexican-Americans as likely to own guns as non-Latinos?”

    From your indignant response, I take it you believe gun ownership is uniform across all demographics, to which I respond: Wow, just wow.

    In fact, gun ownership among Hispanics lags far behind non-Hispanic whites:

    36% of white adults say they own a gun, and another 13% say they don’t but someone else in their household does. Thus, 49% of white adults live in a household with a gun.

    Among Hispanics, 15% of adults say they own a gun, and 6% say they don’t but someone else in the household does. Thus, 21% of Hispanic adults live in a household with a gun.

    Gun ownership is surely affected by a variety of cultural and economic factors. It seems silly to suppose that it doesn’t vary across demographic groups.

    Dave (1bb933)

  80. We will probably learn more in the days to come but there was an off-duty soldier with a gun:

    Army Specialist Glendon Oakley described for local television channel KTSM how he was buying a sports jersey at El Paso’s Cielo Vista Mall when a kid ran into the store and said there was an active shooter at the nearby Walmart.

    “I walked out and I go to Foot Locker and all I hear is ‘Bang’, ‘Bang’,” Oakley told KTSM.

    He said he recently received a license to carry a firearm and had his gun with him. “We’re trained, when you hear gunshots, to pull out your weapon and think fast,” he said. “It’s a feeling that you can’t explain.”

    Oakley said that as he tried to make it to the parking lot he saw “a whole bunch” of children running around without their parents, some crying.

    “So I pick up as many as possible and carry them with me and another guy does as well,” he said, before apologizing to the KTSM reporter: “I’m sorry, I’m shaking.”

    DRJ (15874d)

  81. This information is 5 years old but:

    Q. How many people have a concealed handgun license in Texas?

    A. As of December 31, 2014, the Texas Department of Public Safety reported that of the 26.96 million Texas residents, 2.7% held a concealed handgun license. Of the 2.7% License holders in Texas, less than ½ of 1% reside in El Paso County and are able to carry a concealed handgun on a university campus. Reports and statistics for concealed handgun licenses can be found on the Texas Department of Public Safety website under Concealed Handgun > Reports and Statistics > Demographics.

    There were 11,913 concealed carry permits in El Paso in 2016. That isn’t many but permits are increasing. But just because someone has a gun or a permit doesn’t mean they are carrying. I read that less than 10% actually carry.

    DRJ (15874d)

  82. Dave, I answered your question as precisely as you asked it with “To answer your question, yes we are just likely to own guns…” Maybe it is only because I was raised to say “firearms” instead of “guns” that you somehow think that it is I who is to be perceived as missing – something? When my use of the term should have informed you of my having come from a certain background. Unfortunately, “tell” was lost on you.

    What you call “indignant” I call “disappointed.”

    “I take it you believe gun ownership is uniform across all demographics”

    How do you come to this belief that “law-abiding group of people” means “uniform across all demographics?” Either your reading comprehension is failing you at the moment, or you are simply assigning your own prejudices to my statements. The two, of course, are not mutually exclusive.

    In fact, gun ownership among Hispanics lags far behind non-Hispanic whites:

    36% of white adults say they own a gun, and another 13% say they don’t but someone else in their household does. Thus, 49% of white adults live in a household with a gun.

    HAHAHA! So anecdotal evidence are now facts?

    Gun ownership is surely affected by a variety of cultural and economic factors. It seems silly to suppose that it doesn’t vary across demographic groups.
    Dave (1bb933) — 8/3/2019 @ 8:20 pm

    Yes, it is a supposition that I do not, nor would ever make, but it is certainly a straw-man of your making. I hope you will take this opportunity to profit from this exchange.

    felipe (023cc9)

  83. DRJ (15874d) — 8/3/2019 @ 8:51 pm

    Thank you for the links, DRJ.

    felipe (023cc9)

  84. HAHAHA! So anecdotal evidence are now facts?

    Dave shared the links to the data, are you saying the data is false, because you didn’t actually counter anything, are you saying white people are lying about how many guns they have, or Hispanics are lying about theirs?

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (6e7a1c)

  85. How do you come to this belief that “law-abiding group of people” means “uniform across all demographics?” Either your reading comprehension is failing you at the moment, or you are simply assigning your own prejudices to my statements. The two, of course, are not mutually exclusive.

    I never said anything about “law-abiding”.

    You scoffed at my question as if it was ridiculous to even imagine that the incidence of gun ownership might be different among Hispanics and non-Hispanic whites, without providing any reason why it should be the same except “well of course it’s the same”.

    Apparently I erred in in assuming some degree of logical consistency in your position; if so, I apologize.

    HAHAHA! So anecdotal evidence are now facts?

    Your description of your personal experience is an anecdote.

    A scientific survey of 3,930 adults across the country is not an anecdote; in fact, it’s the opposite of an anecdote.

    Dave (1bb933)

  86. I don’t know but my feeling is that, in Texas, gun ownership and carrying may vary more between large towns/urban vs small towns/rural areas than demographics. El Paso may be more like other large Texas towns, where I expect fewer people carry.

    DRJ (15874d)

  87. The “data” is meaningless. If some stranger calls you on the phone and axes you if you own a gun, would you tell him the truth?

    nk (dbc370)

  88. However, if you look at Texas permit statistics at my earlier link, the big cities in recent years have far more concealed carry permit applications. Still, I wonder if most people in big cities get guns for home protection, but don’t carry as much as folks in smaller cities or rural areas.

    DRJ (15874d)

  89. But it’s #Scientific!!!1!, you #ScienceDeniers!

    nk (dbc370)

  90. As I understand it, Texas only requires a permit for carrying a 1) handgun on 2) your person in 3) public. All three. You can have a loaded handgun in your glove compartment without a permit, and carry a long gun in public, for example.

    nk (dbc370)

  91. Axes is not a misspelling in nk’s retort in that that clever wording shows that amongst the African American population it may not be ones beliefs or lack of firearms acumen but that there could be significant subset of the population who are ex-felons, parolees or on 2nd strike; this might also cut into the Hispanic numbers but to a lesser degree but still more so than non hispanic whites.

    urbanleftbehind (847a06)

  92. Colonel Klink (Ret) (6e7a1c) — 8/3/2019 @ 9:06 pm

    I am saying that evidence is not proof. Much less data. I never accept an appeal to authority uncritically. Besides, Dave asked “is it likely?” He did not ask “is it more/less likely?” To ask such an ill-defined question is already evidence of setting up an argument in bad faith.

    felipe (023cc9)

  93. The laws have changed in recent years but we can carry rifles without a permit. I’ve seen that a lot in rural areas and small towns, especially pickups with gun racks. But it isn’t as common everywhere. (I am specifically excluding East Texas, though. I don’t go there.)

    DRJ (15874d)

  94. I never said anything about “law-abiding”.

    That’s right: I did. Just as I never said anything about ” gun ownership is uniform across all demographics.” It is obvious that you are arguing in bad faith because you attribute to me absurd interpretations of my words.

    It is you who are claiming to know what is in my mind. Not I, to know what is in, yours. But it is nice that I am now residing in your head rent-free. I cannot grant you any accommodation in mine.

    felipe (023cc9)

  95. Yes, nk, you’re right – it’s much better to simply believe whatever we want to believe, and to dismiss out of hand any and all evidence that disagrees with our biases.

    *eyeroll*

    But in fact, it’s not a survey carried out by cold-calling people randomly on the phone.

    It’s one of these long-term panels that people are interviewed to join and where the same people are surveyed about many topics over a period of months or years.

    Dave (1bb933)

  96. Just as I never said anything about ” gun ownership is uniform across all demographics.” It is obvious that you are arguing in bad faith because you attribute to me absurd interpretations of my words.

    OK, so why don’t you explain – in your own words – what “Wow, just wow” was supposed to mean.

    Dave (1bb933)

  97. Really, nk! I had no idea how much you dismiss any and all of dave’s insufferable whining until Dave pointed it out!

    felipe (023cc9)

  98. I am saying that evidence is not proof. Much less data. I never accept an appeal to authority uncritically.

    A scientific survey is not an “appeal to authority,” LOL.

    Besides, Dave asked “is it likely?” He did not ask “is it more/less likely?”

    Except that’s not what I asked at all.

    I asked “Are Mexican-Americans as likely to own guns as non-Latinos?”

    There are exactly three possible answers: they could be less likely, more likely or equally likely.

    How is that “ill-defined”?

    To ask such an ill-defined question is already evidence of setting up an argument in bad faith.

    It was a perfectly well-defined question, and it is you who are being dishonest in claiming otherwise.

    Dave (1bb933)

  99. Felipe,

    God bless you and your family. You’re a good man and I always appreciate reading what you write.

    NJRob (4d595c)

  100. ex-felons, parolees or on 2nd strike

    I’m not any of those, and when our pediatrician asked me if we had guns in the house, I looked him right in the eye and said “No!”. Now that my daughter is 17, click here. (No, that’s not us or anybody we know.)

    nk (dbc370)

  101. OK, so why don’t you explain – in your own words – what “Wow, just wow” was supposed to mean.
    Dave (1bb933) — 8/3/2019 @ 9:44 pm

    Well done, sir! Was that so hard? How much more productive a conversation was to be had by a simple question.

    By “wow” I meant to express my surprise at the suggestion that a dichotomy between such a precise demographic “Mexican-American” and a nebulous demographic “non-Latinos” could be made.

    By “just wow” I wondered what could the maker of this statement possibly hold as axiomatic to make those two selections.

    So now you know what I meant. It was kind of you to ask. Now I would like to ask you to explain, in your own words, what were those axioms upon which you relied to pick those two particular terms to construct your dichotomy?

    felipe (023cc9)

  102. “He did not ask “is it more/less likely?” To ask such an ill-defined question is already evidence of setting up an argument in bad faith.”

    Dave asked his question, posing as an innocent. He already knew what he thought was the answer, so it was his version of trolling, with his ultimate goal of showing what a smart guy he is.

    Colonel Haiku (951ecf)

  103. What a very kind blessing! Thank you NJRob, it is much appreciated. God bless you and your family, too. Please be assured of my spiritual closeness to you and your family as we both make our way back to our Maker.

    I also bless you, Dave and your family. We are not enemies, but fellow travelers in this world.

    felipe (023cc9)

  104. My unsolicited $.02

    Colonel Haiku (951ecf)

  105. $.02 from you, Colonel is worth more to me than $2 from others.

    felipe (023cc9)

  106. Now I would like to ask you to explain, in your own words, what were those axioms upon which you relied to pick those two particular terms to construct your dichotomy?

    It was stated, in this thread, 10 comments before mine:

    This mall is in a heavily Hispanic area of El Paso, an is a place were Mexican nationals specifically come across the border to shop.

    It was also stated, in this thread, 4 posts before mine (which I, in fact, quoted):

    Maybe it is gun free, too, but most Walmarts have security and it is not uncommon for people to have guns in cars, and reports say this started in the parking lot.

    Thus, it could be an explanation of, or contributing factor to, the failure of any armed citizen “good guy” to intervene if the people in the area were heavily Hispanic, and Hispanics are less likely to have firearms. So I suggested that possibility.

    And, based on the survey data (which I was not aware of when I posed the question), there is evidence that Hispanics (nationwide) are, in fact, significantly less likely to own firearms than non-Hispanic whites.

    If it is true that Mexican nationals cross the border to shop there, it also seems obvious that *they* would not have been allowed to bring weapons with them. So I pointed that out, as well.

    Dave (1bb933)

  107. You are wise Felipe. We are all made in the image of our Creator. Dave and I have disagreed often, but I still wish him well and blessings to his family.

    Colonel, I hope you are well and may He watch over you and yours.

    NJRob (4d595c)

  108. urbanleftbehind (847a06) — 8/3/2019 @ 9:28 pm

    I am sorry that I got so distracted as to forget to say, earlier, that you expressed a valuable incite. Thank you.

    felipe (023cc9)

  109. Dave (1bb933) — 8/3/2019 @ 10:20 pm

    My dear Dave, none of those comments are axioms. I showed you both courtesy and respect by answering your question in not only the letter, but in the spirit in which it was asked. I am disappointed, but not surprised that you did not reciprocate. Fare thee well.

    felipe (023cc9)

  110. Auto-mistake! Incite = insight.

    felipe (023cc9)

  111. My dear Dave, none of those comments are axioms.

    The two comments I cited were my “axioms,” if you insist on calling them that.

    I took them as true for the sake of argument and reasoned from them, along with the observed fact (noted in other comments I did not cite, but which you can easily find in this thread) that there was no armed citizen response.

    I have explained my reasoning clearly and honestly.

    Continuing to engage in sophistry and bearing false witness against me does you no credit.

    Dave (1bb933)

  112. “A dance hall is no place for people with tender corns.” One of my axioms.

    nk (dbc370)

  113. nk gets it, Dave. Why don’t you?

    felipe (023cc9)

  114. The laws have changed in recent years but we can carry rifles without a permit.

    To me, the argument about conceal-carry or which ethnic group owns more guns or permits or whatnot is completely beside the point.
    The real issue is that a young guy was radicalized by a nutty fringe site, not unlike the idiots who decide to become a militant Islamists because they got brainwashed by Islamic State nonsense. This is why 8chan and its offshoots need to be destroyed, for national security reasons and to prevent future mass murders like this.
    One other thing. Trump needs to call out 8chan and every fringe group like them. In no uncertain terms, he needs to condemn those groups.

    Paul Montagu (abf2de)

  115. One other thing. Trump needs to call out 8chan and every fringe group like them. In no uncertain terms, he needs to condemn those groups.

    He may, but he’s personally said about half of the same things as this bowl of turd soup. His announcement speech, on through the caravan talk, to the go back where you came from…Cincinnati.

    He doesn’t go over the crazy cliff all the way, but he’s leaning over the edge and taking a good gander. Plus, he’s an idiot, so he can’t connect the dots, so I’m not holding my breath for him to wake up and start spreading the love. Send them back, or whatever.

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (6e7a1c)

  116. Paul:

    We tend not to want to curtail speech. After all, do websites like that make people do these things, or do people who want to do these things find websites (and other people) like that?

    As for talking about guns, it is hard to know who will do things like this and when/where they will act. Thus, the best way I know to stop them is for a good person with a gun to be there.

    DRJ (15874d)

  117. Just like with Unite the Right and Charlottesville. There are no “very fine people” in 8chan. They’re pretty much all racists and neo-Nazis. Bad people, by definition.

    Paul Montagu (abf2de)

  118. DRJ, I agree with you about free speech, but there are important and necessary carve-outs that the Supreme Court has made about inciting violence, just like we would ban websites run by the Islamic State. IMO, I don’t believe you’ve caught on to the threat that 8chan poses, and I don’t say that lightly.

    Paul Montagu (abf2de)

  119. Breaking, OT – but only by geography: CNN reports active shooter, Dayton, Ohio; multiple victims.

    Sleep well, America.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  120. @123. follow-up, OT, but only by geography:

    Dayton Mass Shooting: Multiple Dead At Ned Peppers Bar In Ohio

    An active shooter killed at least 9 people and wounded at least 16 more at Ned Pepper’s Bar in Dayton, Ohio just hours after a gunman shot and killed 20 people at a Walmart in El Paso, Texas, police confirmed.

    source- https://heavy.com/news/2019/08/dayton-ohio-active-shooter-shooting/

    Sleep well, America.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  121. Its time to declare n.r.a. a terrorist organization and its members declared outlaws.

    lany (8a2ba3)

  122. Don’t let the bedbugs bite, DCSCA.

    nk (dbc370)

  123. The gun nuts have already started with their thoughts and prayers bullish*t. when they are not running down to the gun store to buy more guns. Looks like we have to wait to 2025 when AOC takes office as president to “deal” with the nra.

    You can come get mine.

    Kevin M (21ca15)

  124. I’ve said this before: 8chan needs to be classified as a domestic terrorist organization and should be obliterated.

    You were wrong then, too. I don’t even think it should be deplatformed, for much the same reason Ma Bell never took away the Communist Party phone lines. But maybe someone ought to be paying attention.

    Kevin M (21ca15)

  125. If you really want to take action against these folks — rather than rounding up blowhards and otherwise attacking the still-law-abiding — take them into custody then shoot them in the basement and don’t tell anyone who they were. Let their relatives wonder (as if they don’t know).

    Kevin M (21ca15)

  126. I second remarks made at 129.

    mg (8cbc69)

  127. I am not ignoring or discounting your point, only saying that we try not to go down that road. Do you think this is a fair analysis of what is going on at 8chan, Paul?

    DRJ (15874d)

  128. I updated the post regarding Dayton. Thank you DCSCA. These incidents seem remarkably similar but the shooter was stopped much more quickly in Dayton. He still killed/wounded too many.

    DRJ (15874d)

  129. Paul, the El Paso shooting is being treated as domestic terrorism. If it leads to calling this site/people supporters of terrorism, it can be shut down. But that takes time. It may be a good idea to do that, but I don’t think ending a website will end these incidents in the long run. (Although it might help to identify who posts there.) In the meantime, I want people to defend themselves and others.

    DRJ (15874d)

  130. As a meme that gets passed around succinctly states, DRJ, “why can’t we have both?”

    urbanleftbehind (97e271)

  131. 128, can the authorities at least show a proof of death? There are people that are skeptical that the assailant would be dispatched, in fact given the number of Eric Garner chokehold/EP shooter sitting in a piece cruiser memes, many would believe the police would simply let him escape through a tunnel.

    urbanleftbehind (97e271)

  132. Hes a criminal, open and shut death penalty case,

    Narciso (72d34b)

  133. Well Paul cheered the deplatforming of an Iranian dissident a month ago, based on regime mouth pieces including those who defamed the Covington kids so I’m not surprised

    Narciso (72d34b)

  134. The punk is an environmental nut, quoted the lorax.

    Narciso (72d34b)

  135. Some comrades do not understand that First Amendment is antidote to Fifth Amendment. The failure is not in letting them reveal themselves on the internet — the failure is in not rounding them when they do.

    nk (dbc370)

  136. I’m not going to name him, he isnt worthy but hes three bags of crazy.

    Narciso (72d34b)

  137. why can’t we have both?”

    nk is right. We have free speech for good reasons. In addition, the website makes it a lot easier to find the people who are inclined to talk about doing things like this. That strikes me as useful.

    DRJ (15874d)

  138. But I don’t think speech makes us do bad or good things. I think character makes us who we are, and we seek out people who agree with us.

    DRJ (15874d)

  139. Hes as crazy as the extinction rebellion folks that have tied up thoroughfares in the UK. But that expect is inconvenient.

    Narciso (72d34b)

  140. I’m seeing more reports that the El Paso shooting lasted 20 minutes, although the police say they got there in 6 minutes. I’m not sure if they waited to go in or if it took time to find the shooter, especially with so many panicked people trying to get away.

    In Dayton, police were already in the area (it was a bar at 1 AM, and police do that) and the response time was 1 minute. That difference saved lives.

    DRJ (15874d)

  141. There is usually an explanation for things like this that is often far more mundane. Some reports suggest he had problems at school and was living with other relatives. People who think they have messed up their lives do stupid or even evil things, especially if they see no way to fix it.

    DRJ (15874d)

  142. We had a small riot in front of where I live last night. (That’s why I was up at 3:30 am.) Half a dozen drunks and a couple of bouncers from the corner bar in a fistfight that apparently started over a woman. (Over a woman, can you believe it? A woman!) Three police cars showed up with four officers in each. They swarmed in, put the situation down, got back in their cars, and drove off, I guess to the next one. They had no interest in talking to anyone or investigating anything. A little later, another police car showed up with the ambulances. He lingered for a while.

    nk (dbc370)

  143. Link. At around 0:25.

    nk (dbc370)

  144. Freestyle or Reggaeton?

    urbanleftbehind (97e271)

  145. Benji Backer
    @BenjiBacker
    ·
    What happened today, no matter if it’s confirmed white supremacy or not, re-exposes the fact that this happens all too often. A lot of my peers have faced it. I’ve stayed silent on it for a while, but not anymore.
    __ _

    stephen lee
    @splee62220
    ·
    I agree but if people keep labeling 45 million trump voters as white nationalists, Nazis etc people will ignore the true issue

    _

    harkin (58d012)

  146. That was an exciting night, nk. I knew a police officer years ago who told me there were some days/nights when people went crazy. Maybe it was the weather, the economy, the current events — he didn’t know — but he said he could count on more crime during those times. A criminal law attorney I knew always blamed it on the heat.

    DRJ (15874d)

  147. Fortunately, 8chan has Section 230 protection. Because if we take 230 away, the terrorists win.

    Munroe (4bb078)

  148. The four-man cars are part of the Chicago PDs saturation strategy. They actually call them “saturation cars”. I’m glad to see my neighborhood still rates them. They’re more common in the “safe entertainment areas”, like Wrigleyville or Rush Street. There, they often let some of the officers out on foot patrol while the cars circle, ready to pick them up or back them, or other officers, up. My guess is that Dayton has something similar in place.

    nk (dbc370)

  149. That’s interesting. Is that swarming? Big cities have bigger problems but they also have more resources.

    DRJ (15874d)

  150. I figured the Dayton police were hanging around the bar area an hour or two before closing time. Our police do that every night to catch drunks trying to drive.

    DRJ (15874d)

  151. It seems very similar, DRJ, and I know the Chicago PD has had its in place for at least 25 years.

    nk (dbc370)

  152. I’m still trying to figure out urbanleftbehind’s comment at 147.

    It was a freeforall but clean. No stomping, fists and clinches only. John Wayne and Randolph Scott would approve. Marlene Dietrich too, but only if she was the one they were fighting over.

    nk (dbc370)

  153. DRJ @12. DRJ (15874d) — 8/3/2019 @ 1:23 pm Probably it was all hands on deck It was all hands on deck. A local Congresswoman was holding a town hall meeting and was in the middle of a quesiton and answer segment when members of her staff approached her (she could just by that that somethig unusual was going on) and said the police who were protecting the meeting….

    ———————
    (Cf: Gabby Giffords in Arizona. They are always “fighting the last war.” If someone aboard an airplane one time puts a bomb that doesn’t even work in his shoe, then everybody afterward has to take off their shoes before boarding an airplane; if some terrorist group discusses devising a 2-part bomb in liquid, then nobody can take containers of liquid aboard airplanes even though dehydration increases the risk of fatal blood clots. So now a lot of town halls are guarded.
    —————————————————————–

    ….told them there was an active shooter somewhere and they had been summmoned to go there, so she told the people the meeting was over and they should go home.

    Sammy Finkelman (e806a6)

  154. Jordan Anchondo, an El Paso victim who died saving her children. She was killed by a shooter who allegedly was angry at Mexicans and didn’t want to kill “fellow Americans”. I am not convinced.

    DRJ (15874d)

  155. <block#6: Over at the WaPo comments section they are sure it’s a white supremacist who forgot to wear his MAGA hat.

    Kevin M (21ca15) — 8/3/2019 @ 1:23 pm

    Sammy Finkelman (e806a6)

  156. Our police do that every night to catch drunks trying to drive.

    And drunks deciding they need to have a fight before they go home…

    I would not be surprised if every police department in the country does something similar. Odds are, if someone is going to be drunk and do something stupid, they’re more likely to be drunk and doing stupid at closing time.

    kishnevi (496414)

  157. It was a white nationalist in El Paso (not quite a white supremacist – this type of person is more concerned about Mexicans than blacks) but he was careful to say, in his screed that he posted 19 minutes before the first 911 call, that pople should not support Donald Trump.

    The reason: He was doing this because Donald Trump wasn’t taking care of whattever he was asserting, and he wanted others to sacrifice their lives too.

    He used the same message board or service used by the Pittsburgh synagogue shoooter and the New Zealand Christchurch mosque shooter.

    They are being somewhat cautious in saying it was the shooter who posted it, but they probably know for sure it was his account and that it referred to what was about to happen (he used the word “this”

    This was actually seen live by some people in law enforcement, but it didn’t say where anything would take place. Even if they’d identified him right away they probably wouldn’t have guessed right or even come close as to what he was about to do, and where.

    He lived outside of Dallas and drove 10 hours or maybe it was 8 hours to El Paso and stayed overnight at somebody’s home. This does sound like a conspiracy, although all the people involved probably did their best to protect themselves from legal liability.

    Sammy Finkelman (e806a6)

  158. 26. DCSCA (797bc0) — 8/3/2019 @ 2:04 pm

    and Putin smiled

    Quite possibly Vladimir Putin is behind all of this, you know. This is all over the wordl, ad the same thing, including exonerating Donald Trump.

    It might not be so successful without professional expertise.

    Sammy Finkelman (e806a6)

  159. You were wrong then, too.

    Nah. There’s little difference between 8chan and an Islamic State site.

    Paul Montagu (35419a)

  160. Do you think this is a fair analysis of what is going on at 8chan, Paul?

    I wouldn’t link it if I didn’t think it was fair.

    Paul Montagu (35419a)

  161. Well Paul cheered the deplatforming of an Iranian dissident a month ago…

    You’re making s**t up, narciso.

    Paul Montagu (35419a)

  162. 157-DrJ, you think this could have been an elaborate alibi or a double agent/false flag? At least a 1/3 of the prison yard would have his back with this white power pose than if he was generic shooter and killer of innocents.

    urbanleftbehind (97e271)

  163. Heshmat alavi, you bought that lie from niac and all their elves, you want me to cite the thread.
    So this worthless (redacted) is supposed to be the arbiter of anything on line, if you listen to Google’s bloc committee the answer is yes.

    Narciso (72d34b)

  164. The Dayton assailant is named, but achingly little about motive thus far. I would not rule out a sort of tit for tat from the antifa friendly world.

    urbanleftbehind (97e271)

  165. In the meantime, I want people to defend themselves and others.

    I agree. I also agree that if you see something, you say something. To date, we have yesterday’s massacre, and then there’s also John Earnest, the idiot who shot up a synagogue in Poway, killing one and wounding others.
    And then there’s Brenton Tarrant, a f**king moron who thought it a swell idea to travel to New Zealand and mass-murder Muslims in mosques.
    What is the price of letting 8chan site live and risking other mush-brains going out and spraying innocents with bullets versus burning that bitch down? If this were a KKK or Islamic State site and if these KKKers or militant Islamists mass-slaughtered innocents, we’d be going to war against the people behind those sites.

    Paul Montagu (35419a)

  166. There are many brands of crazy, now if you murder civilians, I don’t care about your argument, now the bureau apparently does they couldnt even venture a motive for Las Vegas.

    Narciso (72d34b)

  167. In the El Paso shooter’s manifesto, he used “invasion” or “invaders” six times.
    The FBI warned that conspiracy theories–that is, actual FakeNews, much of which is approved by Trump–are a domestic terrorism threat.

    The document specifically mentions QAnon, a shadowy network that believes in a deep state conspiracy against President Trump, and Pizzagate, the theory that a pedophile ring including Clinton associates was being run out of the basement of a Washington, D.C., pizza restaurant (which didn’t actually have a basement).

    This president promoted Twitter accounts that "have shown support for the online conspiracy theory known as QAnon, amplifying the fringe accounts to his millions of followers. Am I blaming Trump for yesterday’s massacre? No, but he’s not helping.

    Paul Montagu (35419a)

  168. Nk, it’s a roundabout way of asking if they were middle age Ricans or young Ricans, if it’s the same bar from before (freestyle being 80s dance music and reggaeton music being for the young crowd)

    urbanleftbehind (97e271)

  169. Young, and it is the same bar with the shootings.

    nk (dbc370)

  170. Heshmat alavi, you bought that lie from niac and all their elves, you want me to cite the thread.

    Be a man and cite the thread, narciso. I never said the guy should be de-platformed. I never would say that about a person who–whether he exists or not–opposes the Iranian de-facto theocratic dictatorship. If I said anything about the “guy” (and I don’t remember actually talking about him), it was that the Trump White House relied on MEK trolls to justify bailing on the Iran deal.
    I do remember that you twice got personal with me in a thread where you mentioned “Alavi”, and I consider your above bogus assertion to also be a personal attack. I do note that you’re a fan of the fictional character, which means you got chumped.

    Paul Montagu (35419a)

  171. Wow just visited 8chan. I didn’t know that existed. So so nasty. I think what bothers me is the codifying and organization of hate. It’s one thing to feel hate which is part of the human condition. It’s another thing to nurture, grow and tend your hate like a plant, so that it bears fruit. I don’t know how you counter hate like that. I mean, life is good my dudes. Get out of the basement and get some sun on your skin. Have a cappuchino. Do some service. Go to a AA meeting. Do they have HA? Hate Anonymous? Cause these dudes are sick and need recovery .

    That said, I’d resist shutting it down, for free speech reasons. agree with 128. someone ought to be listening closely.

    JRH (52aed3)

  172. @174 Isn’t there too much crazy to keep tabs on, though?

    I’ve never visited the site, but I imagine there are internet tough guys trying to outdo each other’s hate crime fantasies more or less continuously.

    Dave (1bb933)

  173. I didn’t want to stay too long. I didn’t see anyone actually explicitly advocating violence. What I did see was really nasty and Ill just leave it there.

    JRH (52aed3)

  174. Though Paul’s views and arguments are pretty appealing to me, I really wish we could take a break from that level of analysis when these tragedies occur. The shooters are insane, evil, cowards. They are shooting moms trying to shield their babies. They want us to be forced to notice their idiotic views and remember their names. They want to trigger a debate about their ideas. They should be forgotten.

    I’m hoping that mall and El Paso’s streets are renamed after Jordan Anchonado, Glendon Oakley, and the other heroes we don’t know about yet.

    As far as 8Chan goes, I hope the government simply takes over the site to better monitor threats. I hope the government starts a bunch of VPN services and spams them all over The Pirate Bay so they can track the haters. There are too many of these things happening, and sometimes signs the bad guys are getting better at protracted events. But really, the time for that stuff is not hours after the shootings, when we know so little.

    Dustin (6d7686)

  175. The Dayton Police say the shooter’s sister was among the dead.

    Dave (1bb933)

  176. I have a suspicion that this might be like the Orlando night club shooting.

    nk (dbc370)

  177. from https://www.cincinnati.com/story/news/2019/08/04/dayton-shooting-suspects-sister-among-dead/1915777001/

    Four women and five men.

    Six were black and three were white.

    One was the gunman’s sister.

    These are the victims in Sunday’s mass shooting in Dayton, Ohio, ranging in age from 22 to 57.

    Megan Betts, 22, the sister of the shooter.
    Lois Oglesby, 27.
    Saeed Saleh, 38.
    Logan Turner, 30.
    Nicholas Cumer, 25.
    Thomas McNichols, 25.
    Beatrice Warren-Curtis, 36.
    Monica Brickhouse, 39.
    Derrick Fudge, 57.

    nk, what reminds you of the Pulse shooting?
    The Yelp reviews are not very kind to the place

    https://www.yelp.com/biz/ned-peppers-bar-dayton

    kishnevi (496414)

  178. In the meantime, I want people to defend themselves and others.

    Me too. I also agree that if you see something, you say something. To date, we have three 8chan-inspired mass shootings this year. In addition to yesterday’s massacre, there’s John Earnest, the idiot who shot up a synagogue in Poway, killing one and wounding others.
    And then there’s Brenton Tarrant, a moron who thought it a swell idea to travel to New Zealand and mass-murder Muslims in mosques.
    What is the price of letting 8chan site live and risking other mush-brains going out and spraying innocents with bullets versus burning 8chan down? If this were a KKK or Islamic State site and if these KKKers or militant Islamists mass-slaughtered innocents, we’d be going to war against the sites and the people behind them.

    Paul Montagu (35419a)

  179. That the shooter might have disapproved of the lifestyle of the patrons, kishnevi.

    nk (dbc370)

  180. The Yelp reviews don’t indicate that it’s anything other than a general purpose dump of a bar.
    That the sister was among the victims suggests, to me, a a personal motive.

    kishnevi (496414)

  181. According to Heavy, his sister’s boyfriend was also murdered. She was 22, so I’m guessing her boyfriend was close to her in age, so it was either Cumer or McNichols.

    Paul Montagu (35419a)

  182. You cheered it, even after Dorsey restored him, what is one to interpret, never trump means always imputing negative impression to anything trump says and does.

    Narciso (72d34b)

  183. Father of the shooter was a forty year screw up, his home life was beyond wrecked like with Charleston, maybe he saw murder as the only thing that would validate his pathetic existence.

    Narciso (72d34b)

  184. Those photos at Heavy are heart-breaking.

    Maybe the guy was drunk/high/out of his mind when he went postal?

    Dave (1bb933)

  185. You cheered it, even after Dorsey restored him…

    You’re lying. You need to retract your assertion and apologize.

    Paul Montagu (35419a)

  186. We give these psychos too much of a platform where they can use violence to puff up their miserable lives,

    Narciso (72d34b)

  187. 48. DRJ (15874d) — 8/3/2019 @ 5:05 pm

    I can’t understand hate and anger and evil like this.

    I don’t think it’s hate at all. It’s evil, but it is indifference.

    Once somebody is indifferent, the motives can be almost trivial. In the case of El Paso, this person was steeped in abstract ideas, and maybe wanted to feel important and to have accomplished something significant in his life.

    And maybe somebody encouraged him, using encrypted messages

    He wanted to prevent Texas from becoming a blue state. He was hpoing to scare enough Hspanics away so that it would stay Republican. Not that he had actually any special reason for wanting that, at least more than the way somebody favors a sports team.

    In the case of the Dayton shooter I don’t think we yet know his “cause” but he seems to have planned it very well (body armor and mask) He had better weapons than the El Paso shooter (who had complained on his second, month-old Twiter account that “gun laws are honestly to [sic] strict I need my AK-47 and AK-15 [sic]”

    The Dayton shooter was shot and killed at the point where he had killed 9 and injured 26. He maybe hadn’t been aware that police were standing unobstrusively around that bar every night maybe before that it closed.

    Sammy Finkelman (e806a6)

  188. narciso @189.

    Yes, It’s 90%, people trying to puff up their miserable lives.

    Sammy Finkelman (e806a6)

  189. Kevin M (21ca15) — 8/4/2019 @ 2:43 am nk (dbc370) — 8/4/2019 @ 6:50 am

    I agree, gentlemen.

    felipe (023cc9)

  190. 8chan founder: Burn that b***h down, or something like that.

    “Shut the site down,” Mr. Brennan said in an interview on Sunday. “It’s not doing the world any good. It’s a complete negative to everybody except the users that are there. And you know what? It’s a negative to them, too. They just don’t realize it.”

    Paul Montagu (35419a)

  191. Kishnevi @182.

    This sounds like one of those thing where somebody has a personal motive for killing someone, and, knowing that’s the effective end of their lives, decides to kill other people, because the cost of doing that is now “free.” This happened in San Francisco when Dan White killed the mayor because he wouldn’t re-appoint him to the seat he;d just resigned from.

    Sammy Finkelman (e806a6)

  192. I’d like to know what role, if any, psychotropic drugs play in this “epidemic of violence.” Given that suicidal tendency and violent impulses are warned about on the inserts, it seems a foolish factor to ignore.

    Gryph (08c844)

  193. 22 mass shootings so far this year. What is to be done? Dutlaw nra as terrorist organization declare nra members as outlaw terrorists for accessary to murder and hunt them down in the streets starting with wayne lapierre.

    lany (b71ab4)

  194. Correction @160. It was the Poway, California synagogue shooter who used 8chan, not the Pittsburgh one. I inferred that an incomplete reference.

    What helps prevent or limit terrorist acts is what the potential terrorist doesn’t know – it’s thinking he can do something that he can’t.

    The El Paso killer knew 8chan could be monitored so he posted his manifesto just before he did it – and gave no clues as to where he was. The Dayton killer didn’t realize police would be around the bar, so even though he had more firepower than the one in El Paso, he was stopped short well before the killing reached Orlando proportions.

    That’s not good enough, though.

    Sammy Finkelman (e806a6)

  195. Do you think this is a fair analysis of what is going on at 8chan, Paul?

    I wouldn’t link it if I didn’t think it was fair.

    Paul Montagu (35419a) — 8/4/2019 @ 9:42 am

    I am afraid my question offended you but that wasn’t my intent. I want to discuss this topic and I started by asking you about the website you linked. I understand you like or find the content credible. I wanted to know more and I thought asking that question was a good way to start. Certain websites may have good content now and then, but not be consistently good or reliable. This is my first introduction to Bellingcat so I was curious about what you know and think of it.

    But maybe it seemed like a gotcha question or an attempt to discredit the website or you. Thus, let me be clear about what I think in the hope it will let us discuss this further:

    1. I found the Bellingcat link and website to be interesting and thoughtful. I read the link several times, as well as essays about the Christchurch and Poyag Synagogue killers. They are convincing but does the website/author argue that 8chan should be taken offline? I haven’t read every post but the ones I have read suggest to me that they want authorities to be aware of 8chan and to seriously investigate those who frequent it. I think there may be probable cause to do that now.

    2. However, if they want 8Chan taken offline, how are we supposed to do that legally? The only way I know is to show they are supporting criminal activity but that requires proof in court, something that might happen if in the El Paso shooter’s case. (Maybe having him alive for trial will serve a good purpose.) But can it even be done if the website is hosted in a foreign country like the Phillipines?

    3. Further, is taking websites offline effective? There were mixed feelings on that in the case of foreign terrorist networks. Terrorists had access to websites for support and information, but intelligence services and law enforcement also knew where they were congregating. We can disrupt them but don’t they just move on — just as 8chan evolved from other websites?

    4. Finally, where do we draw the line? Even Bellingcat has written about other ways people are radicalized. We should try to convince 8chan not to host these dangerous forums and maybe we shoukd try to stop it legally, but I worry that the cost to society of outright censorship may be too high. This one exception may become the rule.

    DRJ (15874d)

  196. 196. Why just not outlaw high killing capacity guns?

    But I favor compulsory buying of crime insurance (for 3 years after the purchase of any new gun) with the insurers being people who personally sign for the purchaser. (not acompany)

    Each insurer must show that he or she is good for the money, either by having a credit line or dedicated retirement or 529 acx=count, or frozen bank deposit or investment.

    The insurance is for $1,000 with every gun needing 10 insurers, at least 3 of the opposite sex from the purchaser.

    If someone feels the gun owner can no longer be trusted they can withdraw with the withdrawal effective a monh and the owner hasd to find another insurer (plus this can be a lead for inevestigators)

    If an insurer dies or loses the abiliy to pay, the purchaser also must find a substitute.

    Much better than background checks.

    Sammy Finkelman (e806a6)

  197. 198. DRJ (15874d) — 8/4/2019 @ 12:29 pm

    want authorities to be aware of 8chan and to seriously investigate those who frequent it.

    The american Civil Liberties Union might not be too happy with that.

    Of course he question is: How do you proceed?

    One idea is visiting someone just to get them to deny any evil intention, and another idea is to do a sting operation on someone who sounds too callous about killing or willing to kill.

    Sammy Finkelman (e806a6)

  198. Of course, if it turns out that 8chan is controlled by Russian intelligence there may be some other way to stop it.

    Sammy Finkelman (e806a6)

  199. I wonder if there is a legal way to subpoena the 8chan user database.

    Kevin M (21ca15)

  200. Of course, if it turns out that 8chan is controlled by Russian intelligence there may be some other way to stop it.

    It’s hard to believe it is controlled by anyone. Kinda the point.

    Kevin M (21ca15)

  201. 196. Why just not outlaw high killing capacity guns?

    Why not just outlaw internet trolls?

    Kevin M (21ca15)

  202. I think our intelligence services might have more latitude than regular law enforcement. Hopefully the 8chan owner(s) will work with authorities voluntarily.

    DRJ (15874d)

  203. The Yelp reviews don’t indicate that it’s anything other than a general purpose dump of a bar.

    The Oregon District has been a mecca of 20 somethings for decades, it’s where all the kids from UD and Wright State go during the weekends. In the late 80’s when I was in town on break, or on leave when I was still single, that’s where we went, since my home town is a suburb between Cincy and Dayton. I’ve been in Ned’s probably 50 times, not since 95 or so, but it’s a pretty typical college dive bar. At 1AM on a summer Saturday night, the Oregon District would be packed. This hits pretty close to home for me.

    We spent the morning touching base with all of our friends and family that still live there, it’s a miracle that none of the kids that were home for the summer were out last night, although 2 were at Ned’s Friday night.

    I guess the good thing is by that time the police are there to make sure the drunks behave, so the response was literally immediate.

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (6e7a1c)

  204. https://www.wsj.com/articles/el-paso-murder-spree-renews-spotlight-on-8chan-online-forum-11564941070

    Fredrick Brennan, 8chan’s creator who has since distanced himself from the site, tweeted after Saturday’s killing spree, “Another 8chan shooting?” In that message, he attacked the forum’s owner, Jim Watkins, and called on him to shut the site.

    Several far-right attackers looking to telegraph their intentions to carry out shootings appear to have embraced 8chan as an outlet of choice…. /blockquote> I think 8chan is probably not what they’re using to communicate with each other.

    Sammy Finkelman (e806a6)

  205. Fair enuf, DRJ. I can be terse and flippant at times.
    I’ve read bellingcat pieces off and on for over a year, and they’re typically well researched and well linked, and their El Paso piece was thorough and accurate. In this case, they spotlighted 8chan but didn’t advocate taking it down. That was my opinion.
    On the legalities of it, the president has vast powers to wage war (see Libya and Yemen), including cyber-war, without Congress getting involved but for appropriating some cash.
    FTR, I haven’t advocated shutting anything down except for those sites run by al Qaeda, the Islamic State and similar militant Islamist groups, and now 8chan. If they incite violence and if their members (not a one-off) actually commit violence, to me that’s a reasonable line to draw.

    Paul Montagu (35419a)

  206. declare nra members as outlaw terrorists for accessary to murder and hunt them down in the streets

    You have more in common with the active shooters than you might realize. Get help.

    It’s hard to believe it is controlled by anyone. Kinda the point.

    Kevin M (21ca15) — 8/4/2019 @ 12:47 pm

    It’s not like Russia controls facebook or reddit either, but they do actively seek stirring the pot and hope to destablize our country. Again, too early to really understand these recent attacks, but we all recognize Russia has and would do this sort of thing. Unfortunately, I don’t see how to have an honest conversation about it without it becoming another partisan thing. Kinda the point.

    Dustin (6d7686)

  207. Why not 1 Million dollars of insurance with 1,000 insurers and 1/2 the insurers being the opposite sex. Is that too big of an infringement on your Second Amendment right to keep and bear arms?

    And speaking of rights, how about a little infringing on the first:

    $1,000 per comment.
    $100 per paragraph.
    $10 per sentence.
    $1 per word.

    How much does your comment cost?

    Would you like Insurance with that sir?!

    MasterBaker (bcae7b)

  208. https://splinternews.com/meet-the-man-keeping-8chan-the-worlds-most-vile-websit-1793856249

    But a couple of years ago, when 4chan decided to ban Gamergate threads because they were being used to post personal information and plan attacks, some of those “powerful people” started leaving. They moved on to 8chan, a site with even looser moderation policies. It became the new digital home for some of the most offensive people on the internet, people who really believe in white-supremacy and the inferiority of women.

    You may not have heard of 8chan, but you’ve almost definitely been exposed to their actions. When something horrifying happens online that leads people to say, “the internet is a terrible place,” they are often talking about something that was planned on 8chan. This is the group that made Microsoft’s teen-loving bot Tay turn racist and start praising Hitler. It got a hashtag trending that suggested boycotting Star Wars because it had black and female lead actors. It was delisted from Google’s search results after users posted child pornography. It has a board called /baph/ dedicated to doxing people and attacking other websites. (Disclosure: earlier this year someone tried to sic /baph/ on me for writing about 8chan.)

    …. Because it doesn’t have paying users, it would have collapsed under its own weight and died out years ago if it wasn’t bankrolled by a man named Jim Watkins, a 52-year old U.S. Army veteran who has a pig farm in the Philippines.

    Sammy Finkelman (e806a6)

  209. 209. Dustin (6d7686) — 8/4/2019 @ 12:54 pm

    Again, too early to really understand these recent attacks, but we all recognize Russia has and would do this sort of thing. </blockquote. Putin promotes white nationalism, especially in Europe.

    And a website in Russia hosts very very a=far right American groups.

    https://www.voanews.com/usa/us-white-nationalists-barred-facebook-find-haven-russia-site

    For white nationalists banned from Facebook, VK, based in St. Petersburg, has become a favorite destination. Its laissez faire policy allows them to post hate-filled memes, praise Hitler, rail at immigrants and Jews, and doxx — publish private information about their enemies.

    VK is short for Vkontakte.

    VK’s terms of service prohibit users from “calls for war, aggression, as well as national and religious division.”

    “We remove such materials and block communities and pages that distribute them minutes after user complaints,” the company said in a statement to VOA. But when it comes to extremist content, VK’s own terms of service are all but ignored or are applied selectively, experts say.

    Sammy Finkelman (e806a6)

  210. That is a reasonable line to draw from a criminal justice standpoint, Paul, if there is a finding that it was engaged in criminal activity. I view this as terrorism and that is a different ballgame to me. I want a coherent strategy to limit or stop terrorists, not just whatever measure of after-the-fact justice that criminal law can offer. I want to catch every terrorist — before they act (if possible). Shutting it down may not be as smart as using it.

    By the way, “terse and flippant” and blunt are OK for me. I like people that get to the point but I draw the line at online sarcasm because they are often trying to be mean. Life’s too short to waste on that.

    DRJ (15874d)

  211. Per presser & video, as Dayton police were routinely on patrol, the city police chief states shooter was engaged and neutralized within 30 seconds— yet shooter still managed to kill 9 and injure 27. 30 seconds- wielding a military-styled assault rifle.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  212. “I wonder if there is a legal way to subpoena the 8chan user database.”
    Kevin M (21ca15) — 8/4/2019 @ 12:46 pm

    If they were party to a lawsuit, I imagine that could happen. But, they have Section 230 protection—therefore, any lawsuit wouldn’t get far.

    Standard disclaimer: I’m no lawyer.

    Munroe (4bb078)

  213. “8chan founder: Burn that b***h down, or something like that.”
    Paul Montagu (35419a) — 8/4/2019 @ 12:10 pm

    If he thought he could be made legally liable for 8chan content, do you think he would’ve created it in the first place?

    Thank you, Section 230.

    Munroe (4bb078)

  214. Information, including identifying information, regarding Internet users and their postings is discoverable in connection with criminal investigations under 18 USC 2703.

    DRJ (15874d)

  215. Chopper-Talk-Trump; ‘there’s a mental illness problem…”

    Pot. Kettle. Black.

    More ‘officialdumb’ tomorrow– [after he confering w/Reich Marshall Stephen Miller.]

    Still, if you’re searching for a bright spot to the weekend, Melania is looking slinky in slacks today.

    Ein volk, ein Amerika, ein Trump!

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  216. “Per presser & video, as Dayton police were routinely on patrol, the city police chief states shooter was engaged and neutralized within 30 seconds— yet shooter still managed to kill 9 and injure 27. 30 seconds- wielding a military-styled assault rifle.”

    Answer: The police were probably, just as in the Gilroy festival case, LYING:


    Matthew Ormseth
    ‏ @MatthewOrmseth
    Aug 2

    County medical examiner says Gilroy gunman died of self-inflicted “intra-oral” gunshot wound — contradicting Gilroy chief, who said three officers shot him dead within a minute.”

    https://t.co/7wsjRJnG0r

    That’s the thing that happens when you make mass shootings and other traumatic events your primary decision and rallying points-everyone, great and small, ‘grifter’ and ‘legitimate’, starts pre-lying and pre-frauding before the bodies are cold.

    These Scientologist/Satanist murders are no difference.

    Moderate Whignat (11dedc)

  217. County medical examiner says Gilroy gunman died of self-inflicted “intra-oral” gunshot wound — contradicting Gilroy chief, who said three officers shot him dead within a minute

    The update is that the Gilroy killer was actually shot by police, but he also shot himself in the head. A not unreasonable error.

    And I think it should be obvious that the only reason the killer shot himself is that, att a minimum, he was surrounded.

    Sammy Finkelman (e806a6)

  218. 157-DrJ, you think this could have been an elaborate alibi or a double agent/false flag? 

    I guess anything is possible but No, I don’t see any conspiracy yet. Just a stupid, hateful, evil-intending kid who — in the end — cared most about hurting anyone and everyone.

    DRJ (15874d)

  219. Good comment, Sammy 221.

    DRJ (15874d)

  220. Ein volk, ein Amerika, ein Trump!

    You sound so proud of what you voted to nominate and put in office!

    I guess one doesn’t “neuter the modern conservative movement” without breaking a few eggs, right?

    And you knew going in that there’d be collateral damage, but these recent attacks are acceptable losses because it’s 1964 again!

    Dave (1bb933)

  221. “And I think it should be obvious that the only reason the killer shot himself is that, att a minimum, he was surrounded.”

    And yet, those extremely relevant and useful details that could have guided the average man in dealing with glory-seeking shooters in the future were omitted from the official reports in favor of a story of hypercompetent ‘engage and neutralize’ cops who today still somehow “can’t stop 9 dead in thirty seconds,” or so DCSCA’s talking point of the day goes.

    Not all aspects of gun control and civic disengagement narratives are obvious, there are lower lies that serve higher ones. After the massive failure and attempted cover-up of the Broward police department, we should be ever-watchful for both official lies and explanations that too conveniently comport with official narratives.

    Moderate Whignat (9ec065)

  222. The one thing I say is that, in many cases, where the killer expects to probably die, getting him to think police are near is the best way to stop him fast. A lot commit suicide. The Pakrland shoooter attempted to mingle with the crowd – but he stopped.

    Sammy Finkelman (e806a6)

  223. there’s one thing nearly all these shooters, whatever their “cause” have in common

    These shooters don’t believe in God or any kind of judgement – none of them. Except for some who have joined a death cult, but they are not thinking as to how any of taht could make sense. Is it anew revelation? No, they don’t believe in that. So how can they imagine that for generations there;’s been this command or reward for killing people? (One answer is few people have hstoricalperspective)

    It’s also crazy for these non-believers to imagine being a hero – how wuld they know it, if dead?

    Sammy Finkelman (e806a6)

  224. This morning, while they knew things about El Paso, they didn’t have much information about Dayton beyond the bare facts.

    There was now a police broefing which said that he had a 223 rifle with 100 round capacity magazines. The police saw people running and so went there. (not clear frpm when the 30 seconds is counting from)

    No clue as to a motive except to the extent that his sister, (and earlier I heard her boyfriend) were among those killed. And something about arriving together with his sister.

    But..

    They were found dead in a car. At another locstion. Or maybe not.

    https://www.newsweek.com/megan-betts-sister-connor-betts-dayton-gunman-killed-1452497

    Carper clarified that the crime scene was concentrated on East Fifth Street in Dayton’s Oregon neighborhood, countering reports claiming that Megan Betts and her boyfriend were discovered shot to death in a car at another location.

    Maybe Lester Holt wll clear this up.

    Sammy Finkelman (e806a6)

  225. The El Paso shooter’s political sympathies seemed to lean right while the Dayton shooter reportedly leaned left:

    On social media, the suspect’s biography started to emerge. On his Twitter page, reviewed by Heavy, he described himself as “he/him / anime fan / metalhead / leftist / i’m going to hell and i’m not coming back.” He wrote on Twitter that he would happily vote for Democrat Elizabeth Warren, praised Satan, was upset about the 2016 presidential election results, and added, “I want socialism, and i’ll not wait for the idiots to finally come round to understanding.” You can read a roundup of his tweets – which also dealt with Parkland, Florida and 9/11 – here and later in this article. Here’s his tweet on Donald Trump’s election victory: “This is bad.”

    Sammy is right. What they had in common was no belief in God. They also had a warped view of what it means to be human.

    DRJ (15874d)

  226. @224. Gee, sore loser, Davy– and hungry for change. Guess you’ll be ordering the from the selection of weenies and pass on the Trump steak.

    Winning!

    Trump/Haley 2020… place your bets. They’ll accept your rubles in London.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  227. From my last link:

    According to Daily Beast, Betts’ sister, Megan, 22, and an unidentified male “were found shot” near the mass shooting scene. Betts arrived in the Oregon District with his sister and her “companion,” before the shooting, police said. At some point prior to the shooting they separated. Betts’ sister was not the first victim of the shooting, but was one of the initial victims. Police have not said if he was targeting his sister. Her companion was wounded, but not killed, and has talked to police, authorities said.

    We may learn more from the companion.

    DRJ (15874d)

  228. Meh.

    Our Captain knows how to manage this: a quick call to Kim for a ‘favor’– a long range missile launch or two over Japan… and voila; news cycle focus changed.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  229. “Hate has no place in our country.” **

    ** Except hate that helps him win.

    DRJ (15874d)

  230. Trump/Haley 2020… place your bets.

    Money Talks/Bullsh*t Walks 2019 … put up or shut up.

    Dave (1bb933)

  231. They were found dead in a car. At another locstion. Or maybe not.

    Not, they were on the street after he emerged from an alley on the way from where his car was parked to Ned’s where he was killed. They were not the first shot, also the boyfriend was shot but not killed, and another companion (the d-bag drove apparently) wasn’t shot.

    As for motive, none presently, other than d-bag, but that his sister and friends were among the victims, some sort of family issue is obvious. He was suspended from high school for having a “hit list”, but that was 6 years ago. He had no contact with police other than some traffic tickets in Centerville, coincidentally where I got my first ticket, second, third.

    He had an AR pistol with a beta c-mag 100rd drum, he also had ear pro and some soft body armor (although I’d not put stock on that, it could just be an LBV), wearing a balaclava, so he possibly wanted to get away with it. That wouldn’t be likely where he did it though, lots of police there, and they performed wonderfully. Ned’s had over 200 people still inside, and it’s basically a long skinny room, so if they didn’t kill him outside, it would have been much, much worse.

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (6e7a1c)

  232. What they had in common was no belief in God.

    And they both hated “automation”/”the Industrial Revolution”.

    Dave (1bb933)

  233. In Dayton, there was no mention of any boyfriend or anything of the sister, who ws 22, two years younger than the shooter, who was 24, and it seemed like all the shooting took place in the street and peole were running out of the bar where there was also a line to get in. And they said they (the brother and sister) arrived together but separated and a policeman was shown saying it all took place so fast that they don’t think there was time to pick out victims. The total is 9 killed, 27 injured.

    The companion being shot and not killed could account for not mentioning a companion, but this then is very fragmentary.

    they were on the street after he emerged from an alley on the way from where his car was parked to Ned’s where he was killed. They were not the first shot, also the boyfriend was shot but not killed, and another companion (the d-bag drove apparently) wasn’t shot.
    Col K:

    they were on the street after he emerged from an alley on the way from where his car was parked to Ned’s where he was killed. They were not the first shot, also the boyfriend was shot but not killed, and another companion (the d-bag drove apparently) wasn’t shot. That sounds like both brother and sister brought a date.

    In El Paso, gone from the story is the idea of the killer staying overnight in El Paso at somebody else’s home. Now the idea seems to be he drove all night from Allen, Texas, (next to Dallas) to El Paso and did this about as soon as he got there. (after doing some preliminary things. like posting his manifesto online.)

    The El Paso gunman bought the gun legally online. (I thought mail order sales of guns was outlawed after Lee Harvey Oswald, in 1963, bought the rifle he used to kill President Kennedy (and shoot at General Walker) by mail order.)

    Sammy Finkelman (e806a6)

  234. @235. You really don’t read very well, do you.

    You’ve been told where to go: twice, to place your bet.

    London will take your rubles, Davy.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  235. Flags are at half staff in Washington, and also in some states like New York.

    Trump came out with the explanation that this was mental illness.

    Sammy Finkelman (e806a6)

  236. @237. So? So did the Unibomber.

    What they had in common was using assault rifles.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  237. DCSCA, I have the idea that if this country went to “That place” in a handbasket, you’d only be interested in whether it was done stylishly or not.

    Kishnevi (57338f)

  238. @242. Been to ‘that’ place; done ‘that’ place.

    We call it 1968.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  239. The El Paso gunman bought the gun legally online. (I thought mail order sales of guns was outlawed after Lee Harvey Oswald, in 1963, bought the rifle he used to kill President Kennedy (and shoot at General Walker) by mail order.)

    You can buy a gun online, it’s perfectly legal. You have to take delivery through an FFL, so 100% of online gun sales are actually completed with a background check. There is no loophole, 100% are given a background check. The guy in Dayton actually bought his AR build online from Texas, but was shipped to a local FFL and he passed a background check.

    In both Texas and Ohio, you can buy a gun directly from a person, in a transfer between two in-state residents, but not from a dealer, a P2P transfer is hard to police, although some states mandate a transfer via FFL even in person to person sales, but it’s not what happened in these cases, in fact it’s almost never the case.

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (6e7a1c)

  240. Looks like Dayton shooter was Satanist, antifa, had Twitter account @iamthespookster (now suspended) since 2013 filled with Antifa/Communist/anti-Trump memes, guess the liberals here can’t ride around on the ANTIFA NEVER KILLED ANYONE talking point anymore.

    And the likely reason the cops responded so quickly was that it was, in fact, a cop bar. Looks like ‘hates whites and cops!’ wasn’t that far off the mark.

    Soft targets are everywhere, you can’t trust the police, only save those around you by taking immediate action against threats! When the Flight 93 mindset is strong again in America, not a single mass shooter will dare try anything!

    White Hat Russian (7dc47a)

  241. And the likely reason the cops responded so quickly was that it was, in fact, a cop bar.

    LOL

    Dave (1bb933)

  242. Given the fact that the El Paso shooter’s online Democrat affiliation was poorly scrubbed by the Extremely Online Left Brigade and the fact that the manifesto was fairly obviously a copypasta not written by him, my ruling on the FBI/MKULTRA decision to start the election season by partnering with the DSA for TWO mass shootings using TWO sleeper agents at once is: LOL.

    The NRA HAS been currently embroiled in internal legal wrangling for the past few weeks, so maybe they figured it would be the best time to strike. We’ll see if any actual gun control comes out of it, or if the David Hoggs and Reza Aslans outstay their welcome even faster this time.

    By the way China is probably about to go Tiananmen on Hong Kong, might be a more important story than the umpteenth BAN ASSAULT WEPONS fight.

    Tinfoil Surprise (0de272)

  243. And the likely reason the cops responded so quickly was that it was, in fact, a cop bar.

    Uhh, well, you’re as far from correct as it is possible to be.

    Soft targets are everywhere, you can’t trust the police, only save those around you by taking immediate action against threats! When the Flight 93 mindset is strong again in America, not a single mass shooter will dare try anything!

    He was engaged within 30 seconds, and stopped within a minute, and killed 9 and shot almost 30 others. A single mass killer willing to die to kill people can succeed in any situation where a mass killing can occur. It’s just a fact of life in the world we live in, you “mindset” argument is meaningless.

    The constitution exists, to have a functioning second amendment means there are risks for you to get shot by a crazy but non-criminal in the US. In China, where police and civilians are typically unarmed, they have mass knifings, or a driving a truck through a crowd a la NYC, France, the UK.

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (6e7a1c)

  244. I heard today afew times the claim that more people were killed in (I am not sr=ure wen) than American soldiers were killed in Afghanistan in 2017 and 2018 combined,

    That’s because there’s very few American solders still in afghanistan and they are well protected.

    This does not mean that Afghanistan is a sfe country, free from terrorism.

    More ta=han 1,500 civilians civilians were killed in Afghanistan in Jul, 2019, alevel that had nt=ot been seen since May, 2017.

    The reason, I think: The U,S. has gotten focused on negotiations with the Taliban.

    There is no political solution to this conflict.

    No ordinary one anyway and not one that relies on trusting what your interlocutors say. This is greatly harmful, and deadly, foolishness.

    Sammy Finkelman (e806a6)

  245. Paul,

    I think this is interesting and instructive. It shows how the market deals with things like this. It is messy and slow and it might not be enough — maybe we need new regulations or laws — but it does deal with it.

    DRJ (15874d)

  246. Two people died overnight, bringing the death toll in El Paso to 22.

    DRJ (15874d)

  247. #247

    By the way China is probably about to go Tiananmen on Hong Kong, might be a more important story than the umpteenth BAN ASSAULT WEPONS fight.

    Well, Trump thought what China did the first time was a good idea, and he has tweeted out China’s line on Hong Kong, so look for lousy Presidential leadership there as well.

    Appalled (d07ae6)

  248. “Well, Trump thought what China did the first time was a good idea, and he has tweeted out China’s line on Hong Kong, so look for lousy Presidential leadership there as well.”
    Appalled (d07ae6) — 8/5/2019 @ 12:44 pm

    I heard he also colluded with Russia on election meddling.

    Munroe (33bad0)

  249. Whenever I think something is a “good idea”, the words “vicious” and “horrible” just roll off my tongue.

    Munroe (33bad0)

  250. #253

    Nah, he just paid off a porn star or two and obstructed justice.

    As to the items you choose to mock — make up your own minds from the below. A really good Trump supporter ough to be abole to twist this up good.

    Tiananmen —

    “When the students poured into Tiananmen Square, the Chinese government almost blew it. Then they were vicious, they were horrible, but they put it down with strength,” Trump replied. “That shows you the power of strength. Our country is right now perceived as weak…as being spit on by the rest of the world.” — Donald Trump 1990 (In Playboy, that magazine Trump reads for the pictures)

    HongKong —

    Are you concerned by reports that the Chinese army may be preparing to intervene in Hong Kong against the demonstrators? And what do you say to the accusation that the U.S. is somehow behind these protests?

    THE PRESIDENT: Well, something is probably happening with Hong Kong because when you look at, you know, what’s going on, they’ve had riots for a long period of time. And I don’t know what China’s attitude is. Somebody said that at some point they’re going to want to stop that. But that’s between Hong Kong and that’s between China, because Hong Kong is a part of China. They’ll have to deal with that themselves. They don’t need advice.

    https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefings-statements/remarks-president-trump-marine-one-departure-56/

    Appalled (d07ae6)

  251. “Whenever I think something is a “good idea”, the words “vicious” and “horrible” just roll off my tongue.”

    I also stopped reading the quote on those words, and have no idea what other context there might be.

    Davethulhu (fab944)

  252. Postscript: A survivor in El Paso says the shooter was targeting Hispanics. He used soda cans to distract the shooter. His mother, who usually carried a gun, left it at home because they were just going to Walmart. A CBP off-duty officer was in the store. She likewise had not brought her weapon.

    DRJ (15874d)

  253. Whenever I think something is a “good idea”, the words “vicious” and “horrible” just roll off my tongue.

    Munroe (33bad0) — 8/5/2019 @ 1:11 pm

    Trump used those words followed by “but,” which negates the meaning and impact of whatever came before. What followed was Trump complimenting the Chinese use of strength.

    DRJ (15874d)

  254. I think Munroe gets all of that and i doubt he’s arguing in good faith

    Time123 (a5c0aa)

  255. Munroe likes sarcasm but the best way to deal with sarcasm is truth.

    DRJ (15874d)


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