Patterico's Pontifications

6/14/2019

Trump Taunts Iran

Filed under: International — DRJ @ 6:29 am



[Headline from DRJ]

Daily Mail — Trump says Iran DID attack tankers in the Gulf and warns it will ‘not be taken lightly’ as he mocks Tehran for not knowing about night-vision cameras that caught Revolutionary Guard Corps moving mines:

He advised Tehran the U.S. could see evidence of the attack and cited a video released Thursday by the American military that claimed to show grainy footage of Iranian vessels retrieving an unexploded mine from one of the damaged ships.

‘You saw the boat, one to have mines didn’t explode and it has Iran written all over it. Successfully took the mine off the boat and that was exposed. They didn’t want the evidence left behind. They don’t know that we have things that we can detect in the dark that work very well. We have that. It was them that did it,’ Trump said.

They know now, don’t they?

— DRJ

140 Responses to “Trump Taunts Iran”

  1. I posted on the original story here.

    DRJ (15874d)

  2. Crap…

    We go’in to war ain’t we?

    @#$%!

    I’m weary of war…

    whembly (51f28e)

  3. It doesn’t make sense that Iran would attack two tankers headed to Japan (one even Japanese-registered) while the Japanese Prime Minister was in Teheran trying to make nice-nice with Iran. It makes more sense that third-party saboteur/provocateurs would try to derail the talks to further isolate Iran as well as create a fake casus belli.

    nk (dbc370)

  4. Then why would the Iranians remove a mine from one of the vessels, nk?

    DRJ (15874d)

  5. Maybe they wanted Abe to know that Trump can’t help protect Japanese interests.

    DRJ (15874d)

  6. Boats can have false markings.

    nk (dbc370)

  7. Or, why shouldn’t Iranian bomb disposal crews help remove an unexploded mine from a ship in distress near their waters? (Which is the Iranian claim according to the Daily Mail.)

    nk (dbc370)

  8. At night? Why jeopardize your own people for a ship that is already evacuated? Much more sensible to wait for daylight and do it safely.

    DRJ (15874d)

  9. They know now, don’t they?

    I find it hard to believe that the Iranian military does not know about night vision cameras. They are fairly common in the militaries throughout the world. It is not exactly a super secret.

    Bored Lawyer (998177)

  10. I agree, but they may not have known the locations of our cameras or the range they can be used from. They know that now.

    DRJ (15874d)

  11. 150 billion reasons, and the tanker denialists orchestrated that deal, remember niac, how about the tanker war.

    Narciso (b0b7ad)

  12. 3. nk (dbc370) — 6/14/2019 @ 6:45 am

    3.It doesn’t make sense that Iran would attack two tankers headed to Japan (one even Japanese-registered) while the Japanese Prime Minister was in Teheran trying to make nice-nice with Iran.

    Two possible reasons:

    1) Long lead time and long chain of command for deniability reasons.

    2) It was designed to put pressure on Japan to try to change the position of the United States rather than to try to change the position of Iran.

    It’s saying to Japan: If you don’t want to buy oil from Iran, you may find yorself not being able to buy oil from any of he Arab gulf states either.

    It makes more sense that third-party saboteur/provocateurs

    Of course there can be lots of infighting (or corruption) in Iran.

    would try to derail the talks to further isolate Iran as well as create a fake casus belli.

    Who’s the candidate for that? And they’d be operating in a far away territory, and have arsk of both failure and discovery.

    What is noticeable is the moderation. No loss of life or ships.

    That sounds like someone wanting to put pressure but avoid a casus belli. Enough to put pressure on other countries to not stop bying from Iran, but not enough too provoke a war or serious bombing.

    Now maybe you could have some other country’s government bribing peole in Iran’s Revolutionary Guard. The government of Iran has probebly been bribed for many years. to be hostile to the United States, because that foreign policy for Iran makes no sense. (as far as I can tell)

    Sammy Finkelman (1c27d2)

  13. Trump says a lot of things. They might be true, they might not be true. When Trump boasts of a secret camera that can catch Iranian shenanigans — who knows if he’s bluffing, doing the usual line of random chatter, or being indiscreet for a reason? I think Trump does successfully bring confusion to the enemy, here, and that’s not a bad thing to do. It doesn’t matter if the rest of us are confused as well.

    Appalled (c9622b)

  14. #10 — By the military releasing the film, they gave away the location of the cameras before Trump even spoke.

    Appalled (c9622b)

  15. I think Trump does successfully bring confusion to the enemy

    The man has enough confusion to share with everyone, while still keeping two scoops for himself.

    Dave (1bb933)

  16. They’ve bombed embassies in Beirut murdered dissidents in Vienna and Berlin, provided munitions to the Taliban, took out the Jewish community center in Beunos Aires

    Narciso (b0b7ad)

  17. I was going to say the same thing, Appalled, which supports Bored Lawyer’s point. In addition, the CentCom release of information indicates the Iranians tried to help (take custody of?) the mariners, and may even have some of them — supporting nk’s point.

    BUT: Trump made a point of saying we have surveillance (“things”) the Iranians don’t know about. Maybe he made that up but it sounds like something he was told. His public may take his comments with a grain of salt and even ignore them. I don’t think our enemies will.

    In addition, the video was not released before Pompeo spoke:

    Pompeo spoke for less than five minutes at the State Department on Thursday afternoon and at the time provided no immediate evidence for the assessment, which he said was based on “intelligence, the weapons used, the level of expertise needed to execute the operation, recent similar Iranian attacks on shipping and the fact that no proxy group operating in the area has the resources and proficiency to act with such a high degree of sophistication.” His statement was met with immediate skepticism from some Administration critics.

    Roughly seven hours later, Urban released the imagery and a statement. Distress signals were received from the tanker Altair at 6:12 a.m. local time, and from the Kokuka Courageous about 7 a.m., he said in the statement.

    Doesn’t that sound like Pompeo pushed to have the video released to satisfy his critics? I think it is possible the military did not want it released.

    DRJ (15874d)

  18. Maybe Trump should trot in Dubya and Colin Powell to lend clarity and credibility to the allegations.

    Munroe (d9efa6)

  19. McCain’s ghost. Definitely McCain’s ghost. For a guy who purports not to like him, Trump seems anxious to fulfill MCcCain’s wish to

    Bomb, bomb, bomb,
    Bomb Iran.

    nk (dbc370)


  20. Javad Zarif
    @JZarif
    That the US immediately jumped to make allegations against Iran—w/o a shred of factual or circumstantial evidence—only makes it abundantly clear that the #B_Team is moving to a #PlanB: Sabotage diplomacy—including by @AbeShinzo—and cover up its #EconomicTerrorism against Iran.
    __ _

    Omri Ceren
    @omriceren
    Iran Foreign Minister: there’s no evidence!

    US journalists: there’s no evidence!

    US think tankers: there’s no evidence!

    US military: here’s a video of an IRGC Gashti Class patrol boat secretly approaching the M/T Kokuka Courageous and removing unexploded magnetic mine.
    __ _

    RicFLIR
    @RicFLIR
    @NBCNews
    right now is giving more credence to unsubstantiated reports about a “flying object” that hit the ship than A VIDEO SHOWING IRGC REMOVING A MINE.

    There reaches a point where one has to question what team our media really plays for.
    __ _

    Jenna Lifhits
    @jlifhits
    Response: okay fine but it’s still our fault and we provoked them

    _

    harkin (470cbb)

  21. Wag, wag, wag,
    Wag the dog.

    Way too convenient a coincidence with the House going after his personal financials, and all his other flops, flops, flops, flops on his face in world affairs, from Mexico, to North Korea to China.

    nk (dbc370)

  22. Tanker denialism as I live and breathe.

    Narciso (b0b7ad)

  23. Heavily?

    nk (dbc370)

  24. Trump should stick to tweeting about his great relationship with the Prince of Whales.

    Beldar (fa637a)

  25. Abe, the first Japanese Prime Minister to visit Tehran since the overthrow of the Shaw in 1979, probably made arrangements for this meeting months in advance. Most likely it was to ease any tension between the two countries and maintain the free flow of oil, since Japan, having no oil fields of its own to develop, is dependent on imported oil. However, there is reporting that Trump wanted Abe to deliver a message of some sort to the Ayatollah, which he received when they met a few weeks ago. If true, in that context, it is not unreasonable to believe that hard-liners in Iran would want to conflate the meeting and at the same time disrupt the flow of oil, Japan being one of the close allies of the United States.

    But there are larger geopolitical moves being made here. The reason why Russia has allied itself with Turkey, Iran and Syria, and tried to take over Ukraine, is because they want control of the Black Sea and the Mediterranean–that’s where the oil and gas pipelines and shipping routes that feed all of Europe’s energy go through. China has stepped in as well, aligning with Russian and Iran, but only tangentially. Russia’s concern in controlling the energy supply to Europe. China’s concern in controlling the South Pacific Seas, and trade routes throughout the Pacific Ocean.

    This is why Trump’s knee-jerk decision to withdraw from the Trans-Pacific Partnership was so stupid. That entire deal was being negotiated to limit China’s economic expansion, under the United States’ trade authority. Well, that’s gone, thrown out the window; now China can move in and make trade agreements with member nations that comprise half the global population and 70% of trade.

    The Strait of Hormuz is the choke-point for oil shipments–one-third of overseas deliveries worldwide ship through there. There is a reason why Russia invested in Venezuela–to gain majority shares in CitGo, which owns several refineries and pipelines throughout the southwestern Univeted States.

    That is what this is about. That is what this has always been about, since the end of WW II.
    Oil and gas pipelines and control of overseas trade. Russia and China are playing the long game. Trump isn’t capable of playing one-dimensional checkers. He is the definitional Boomer–geiven the world on a silver platter, he promptly turned it into a turd of a paper plate.

    Gawain's Ghost (b25cd1)

  26. *given*

    Gawain's Ghost (b25cd1)

  27. You are staggeringly ignorant, Obama practically handed Ukraine on a platter. Paid a a 150 billion dollar ransom Erdogan was his best pal, he did the qataris business while strangling our natural gas and petroleum

    Narciso (b0b7ad)

  28. The ayatollah is who makes the decisions, prime ministers come and go, the constant I’d they’ve been working on their nuclear program.

    Narciso (b0b7ad)

  29. Night vision cameras… yes, Captain, sir, we should believe everything we see on the TeeVee; like Sarah Huckabee-Gone, like Tammy-Faye Conway, or The Apprentice… or Batman… or the Massaud/IDF dressing up as Iranians. And, of course, everything Fox.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  30. When the price of oil climbs… Putin smiles.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  31. Exhibit A why it’s good to have a President who doesn’t (A) lie all the time, (B) get on twitter all the time and (C) lie on twitter all the time. Because when the sh*t hits the fan and he gets on twitter to spew forth on it, you have no idea whether he’s telling the truth or (D) telling more lies. My money’s on D.

    JRH (52aed3)

  32. Read burton’s Beirut rules, regrettably Reagan was less apt than mitterand in retaliating for beirut, but since then they have knocked under to the sepah which has been involved from burns Aires to Berlin to Baghdad

    Narciso (b0b7ad)

  33. @26.”… That is what this is about.”

    You’ve sketched it out quite well. Grew up amidst this mess; late father was a senior oil exec., and lived with and through this for decades. He spent much of his time dealing w/t Mideast players, tanker trafficking, pipeline/pumping station ops, refinery battles off-loading ports, etc. Stuff most Americans don’t think about when they fill up at the pump– or Europeans consider until winter comes. It’s a helluva chess game–and Trump is playing checkers. The long game is the thing. You wouldn’t believe some of the back stories on all this. OTOH, you likely would. But you’ve keyed in on ‘what this is all about.’

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  34. Today is President Trump’s birthday. Our Captain is 73. There was once another ’73’ floating around on the TeeVee, too, but Joe Flynn, Tim Conway and Ernest Borgnine are all dead now.

    Three scoops of Dolly Madison vanilla and two slices of rich, German chocolate cake tonight, Captain, sir!

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  35. You are staggeringly ignorant, Obama practically handed Ukraine on a platter. Paid a a 150 billion dollar ransom Erdogan was his best pal, he did the qataris business while strangling our natural gas and petroleum

    Narciso (b0b7ad) — 6/14/2019 @ 11:37 am

    You seem to be talking to someone here. Are you?

    DRJ (15874d)

  36. @30 “the Massaud/IDF dressing up as Iranians” It’s spelled “Mossad” (or as you likely put it, the “Joos”)

    Pete (3aedd6)

  37. The Iranians have been playing us for 40 years the embassy capture just emboldened them to the Beirut bombings institutionalized kidnapping the UK refused to admit they had caught a Hezbollah cell four years ago.

    Narciso (b0b7ad)

  38. Of course, it’s also possible the military caught the Iranians using routine night vision surveillance — something every nation and most civilians have access to — and the only person who was surprised by its existence is Trump.

    DRJ (15874d)

  39. Who is “staggeringly ignorant,” narciso?

    DRJ (15874d)

  40. “It was them that did it,” Trump said.

    At least he didn’t say “It was them WHAT did it”

    Kevin M (21ca15)

  41. It makes more sense that third-party saboteur/provocateurs would try to derail the talks to further isolate Iran as well as create a fake casus belli.

    Yes, and what numbskull would come up with a plan like that? Much more believable would be an attack on some border crossings.

    Kevin M (21ca15)

  42. They are fairly common in the militaries throughout the world. It is not exactly a super secret.

    https://www.amazon.com/s?k=night+vision+goggles

    Kevin M (21ca15)

  43. Trump made a point of saying we have surveillance (“things”) the Iranians don’t know about. Maybe he made that up but it sounds like something he was told.

    Maybe he’s confused and mixed up “night-vision cameras” and “spy satellites that can count the fleas on a dog”

    Kevin M (21ca15)

  44. I am not arguing night vision is secret. My point is that Trump seems to think something about this incident was a secret, at least to the Iranians, and he was happy to point that out.

    If it really was a secret to them, don’t we want to keep it that way? If not, then what was Trump talking about? My guess is that he wanted to taunt them as ignorant, which seems unwise.

    DRJ (15874d)

  45. Exhibit A why it’s good to have a President who doesn’t … lie all the time

    Hard to argue with this. Also, see The Boy Who Cried Wolf.

    Kevin M (21ca15)

  46. If this was an Iranian operation, it was done for internal Iranian reasons. For example, it could be the IRG wanting to embarrass a President or Prime Minister they are at odds with, or to scuttle some move towards international rapprochement, but to do it in such a deniable way that it doesn’t quite start a war.

    Kevin M (21ca15)

  47. DRJ,

    I think it was more that he WAS shown convincing evidence, but was told that it was a secret method and so Trump blustered about it in his normal fuzzy-logic way. It IS a good thing for keeping secrets when the boss 1) doesn’t understand the secrets, 2) has execrable memory for non-slights, and 3) makes stuff up all the time, so who’s to know.

    Kevin M (21ca15)

  48. Iran took 23 sailors prisoner. The only thing missing is official confirmation from Iran that they sttacked the ships.

    Sammy Finkelman (d542b2)

  49. What I’d prefer to see is those US night-vision drones shoot the Iranian boats out of the water when they get too close to oil tankers.

    Paul Montagu (cbbfc4)

  50. @37. Yes, a typo… which is quite presidential these days, ‘Peat.’ 😉

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  51. Sure. It was ‘Iranians.’ And have you heard?? No collusion!!

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  52. @45. He’s being fed the Walrus Gumbo, ex-CIA Pompeo line and regurgitating same. Look at it from the Iranian POV; they can’t control everything any more than our Navy can steer it’s ships w/o colliding w/others on occasion. There’s no plus in this from the Iranian POV and just a turn of the screws for Gumbo and crew– and the Israelis, who want to proxy a fight.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  53. @19. He doesn’t know Iran from Iraq. It’s Walrus “Gumbo-at” diplomacy.

    And as the price of oil rises… Putin smiles.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  54. Looking at the photos now, and listening to some senior ex-military/ex-CIA folks conclude that the administration is correct (limpet mines placed by passing boat(s), one didn’t go off and it was removed).

    They differ as to why. Some say it is trying to frighten countries out of sanctions, which are really hurting Iran, others that it is some kind of internal dispute. They expect the Saudis or the UAE to retaliate in some way, not the US as none of our ships were attacked.

    Kevin M (21ca15)

  55. The houthis have been firing rockets at Saudi tankers for a year in the red sea, at the bab al mandel, this is just striking out at Oman which has tried to stay neutral and japan

    Narciso (b0b7ad)

  56. The latest ship Is Norwegian flagged, one of those countries that didnt sign on to the Iran deal but believed it all the same are the sailors at the base seth frontman pointed ut.

    Narciso (b0b7ad)

  57. Here’s what a real conservative president did a score and a half years ago.

    On April 14, 1988, the U.S.S. Samuel B. Roberts, a frigate, hit an Iranian naval mine while sailing in the Persian Gulf. The explosion injured 10 of her crew and nearly sank the ship. Four days later, the U.S. Navy destroyed half the Iranian fleet in a matter of hours. Iran did not molest the Navy or international shipping for many years thereafter.

    There’s hardly a dime’s worth of difference between the de facto theocratic regime today from the one in 1988, and they’re testing to see if Trump is just a “twitter tiger”.

    Paul Montagu (cbbfc4)

  58. You may be right, Paul. You were also right about the drones.

    DRJ (15874d)

  59. We also blew that Iranian airliner out of the sky three months later, forgot about that.

    Yes that drone that crashed in 2012, and was never recovered

    Narciso (b0b7ad)

  60. Trump blames Iran for tanker attacks but calls for talks

    Trump has no other choice but his “tough talking” persona and rhetoric doesn’t match what he ends up doing.

    DRJ (15874d)

  61. Are you claiming the Vincennes shot down Iran Air 655 on purpose?

    DRJ (15874d)

  62. So if he blows up that base, you’d be fine with it, I’m just trying to get the temperature here,

    Narciso (b0b7ad)

  63. Just pointing out that the Iranians have been at fault is a micro agression, actually striking an Iranian target is probably grounds for impeachment?

    Narciso (b0b7ad)

  64. The important “temperature” isn’t what I think, it’s what Trump thinks. My opinion is that Trump is foolish to talk tough if he knows he isn’t going to do anything. His approach is always talk — threats and bluster — but at some point he will be inclined to call out the military to keep him from looking weak. That is not good. Our military should be used to protect our national interests, not our leader’s ego.

    Now, back to your comment about the Vincennes. What was your point?

    DRJ (15874d)

  65. If you’re in a volatile area like the Iran Iraq war which devolved into the tanker war, things can get out of hand, that was also a year after our ally Iraq struck the stark.

    Narciso (b0b7ad)

  66. Khamenei wants us to pull the sanctions which are hitting his pocketbook and the iraniam guard who are acknowledged facilitators of terror.

    Narciso (b0b7ad)

  67. Ego was the other guy, that the press slobbered over, while he sold this country out.

    Narciso (b0b7ad)

  68. The Vincennes did shoot down Iran Air 655 on purpose. Intentionally, deliberately, and with malice aforethought. Because the captain of the Vincennes was a coward sent by a senile (literally) President to strut around with anti-aircraft missiles in the middle of a shooting war between Iraq and Iran, taking the side of the country we would go to war with two years later.

    nk (dbc370)

  69. If you’re in a volatile area like the Iran Iraq war which devolved into the tanker war, things can get out of hand …

    Do you think Trump agrees with this or even understands this?

    DRJ (15874d)

  70. That’s why hes not striking out, but we mobilized resources if we need to. I take the long view, I think Reagan who was focused most directly on the Soviets probably slighted this area of conflict.

    Narciso (b0b7ad)

  71. So you think other governments are ignoring what Trump says?

    DRJ (15874d)

  72. Trump’s domestic audience has learned not to care much about what Trump says. That is unfortunate since we are supposed to be self-governing and thus we need our leaders to give us good, truthful information, but we have accepted the opposite from Trump. Will the international community be as understanding?

    DRJ (15874d)

  73. ‘There’s hardly a dime’s worth of difference between the de facto theocratic regime today from the one in 1988, and they’re testing to see if Trump is just a “twitter tiger”.’
    Paul Montagu (cbbfc4) — 6/15/2019 @ 6:56 am

    I guess a “real conservative” would equate a tanker with a navy frigate.

    Munroe (d46cc3)

  74. Munroe, I think you are saying that attacks on tankers are different than attacking a US Navy warship, a point with which I agree. But it also sounds like you are taunting Paul. Did I miss something or do you want to rephrase?

    DRJ (15874d)

  75. “Will the international community be as understanding?”
    DRJ (15874d) — 6/15/2019 @ 8:41 am

    Trump has to deal with headwinds caused by preceding “truthful” administrations — Obama’s “red line, Bush’s WMD. If there’s a lack of trust, well gee, it’s all on him.

    Munroe (d46cc3)

  76. Trump is the remedy for Obama’s and Dubya’s untruthfulness the way Ebola is the cure for the common cold.

    nk (dbc370)

  77. I disagree about Bush but Obama was not truthful and that was a problem. So you are fine with Trump as Obama 2.0?

    DRJ (15874d)

  78. No, Trump 1.0 is a sufficient upgrade.

    Munroe (c7fc44)

  79. as a matter of opinion i think he’s tops
    mr. donald is he’s the cream of the crop
    as a matter of taste to be exact
    he’s my ideal as a matter of fact

    nk (dbc370)

  80. Ok, are you saying you approve of Trump’s approach to foreign policy or that do you not care what he does because he is your guy?

    DRJ (15874d)

  81. He gave Iran 150 million and Corker was the accomplice, a deal negotiated by wendy sheeman who gave us the Korean framework. How did that work out.

    Narciso (b0b7ad)

  82. Same question to you, narciso.

    DRJ (15874d)

  83. Yes, it’s long overdue, the Brits bent over backwards to his there was a Hezbollah call in London at the same time they approved the Iran deal.

    Narciso (b0b7ad)

  84. This is my question to you, narciso: Are you saying you approve of Trump’s approach to foreign policy or that you do not care what he does because he is your guy?

    DRJ (15874d)

  85. Is your answer to that question what you wrote in 84? If so, I don’t understand it. Please expand.

    DRJ (15874d)

  86. Please expand.

    Nooooooo….

    :)

    Dave (1bb933)

  87. @58. No doubt the employees at work in NYC’s WTC smiled when they read about that in the Times. Wonder whatever happened to them — and it?

    @62. Does it matter?

    _________

    The consequences of these tit-for-tat games tnkering in the Mideast are costly in the short term [for Americans, usually at the pump] and self-infliced wounds long term for establishing any sane diplomatic reset.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  88. It only matters to people who think morality is part of what guides us as Americans.

    DRJ (15874d)

  89. Think of it this way: We all have values, principles, things we care about. For instance, you care about the American space program and what it means to America and the world.

    DRJ (15874d)

  90. You also like to consider how pop culture, the movies and TV affects us. How is that so different from caring about the impact of morality and religion?

    DRJ (15874d)

  91. It only matters to people who think morality is part of what guides us as Americans.

    How quaint!

    Remember, in TrumpWorld the United States is morally equivalent to Putin’s Russia.

    Dave (1bb933)

  92. @73. The ‘int’l community’ left us behind long ago. The interests to watch in this are the corporatists w/fixed assets at risk in the region and the flow of product in transit. They’re harassing a few flagged tanker, not blowing up pipelines.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  93. @89. “Morality”- is a culture driven transient to begin with- and has nothing to do with any of this. This is commerce and geopolitics. GG sketched it out quite well. See #s 26 & 34.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  94. “Morality”- is a culture driven transient to begin with

    To the immoral, yes.

    Dave (1bb933)

  95. ‘We all have values, principles, things we care about.’

    Yes. Some feed their cats and dogs; others cook them for lunch; some democracies worship cattle; others BBQ them and serve w/fries and small Coke for $2.99.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  96. @95. Yes, keep hanging horse thieves on your plantation, Dave, and be sure your field darkies work after sunset– there’s full moon.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  97. So if we let Iran take over the kingdom all would be well, wasnt that the bet we made In Lebanon 30 years ago. So what would you do different?

    Narciso (9cdaa3)

  98. “Ok, are you saying you approve of Trump’s approach to foreign policy or that do you not care what he does because he is your guy?”
    DRJ (15874d) — 6/15/2019 @ 10:19 am

    Trump’s approach to foreign policy is an upgrade to what we had before. That is all. Let’s not pigeonhole.

    Munroe (d0bbaa)

  99. Trump’s approach to foreign policy is an upgrade to what we had before. That is all. Let’s not pigeonhole.

    Munroe (d0bbaa) — 6/15/2019 @ 1:30 pm

    How? She’s trying to figure out what you’re saying because you’re not being clear. How is North Korea and Iran having nukes and blowing up our friends an upgrade? I mean for us. Obviously Putin is good with it.

    Dustin (6d7686)

  100. The Vincennes did shoot down Iran Air 655 on purpose. Intentionally, deliberately, and with malice aforethought.

    I think Hanlon’s Razor is more apt, i.e., never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity. Or more accurately, incompetence.

    Paul Montagu (cbbfc4)

  101. I guess a “real conservative” would equate a tanker with a navy frigate.

    In one case you have Iranian boats attacking a US Navy vessel, and in another case you have a hostile foreign power disrupting the flow of oil in international waters by bombing oil tankers, which will destabilize oil markets, thus raising the price of oil, thus increasing profits to the Iranian regime. Both acts are national security issues for the United States. Blowing up half the Iranian navy is the least Trump should do. That is, if he really wants to bring the Mullahs to the negotiating table.

    Paul Montagu (cbbfc4)

  102. That is, if he really wants to bring the Mullahs to the negotiating table.

    The negotiating table worked so well with the Norks…

    Fortunately, the mullahs may be too proud to perform the ritual acts of flattery required to obtain the same blank check Little Rocket Man received.

    And of course Bibi isn’t interested in a bromance with any nuclear armed lunatic.

    Dave (1bb933)

  103. Yes, keep hanging horse thieves on your plantation, Dave, and be sure your field darkies work after sunset– there’s full moon.

    You’re the one who voted for the bigot, not me.

    Dave (1bb933)

  104. Well-done on your use of disparaging racial slurs and stereotypes, though.

    Dave (1bb933)

  105. “Morality”- is a culture driven transient to begin with-

    That is certainly United States Supreme Court doctrine for the last fifty years.

    nk (dbc370)

  106. Iran did this probably because Trump said he didn’t want war with Iran, and Iran believed him.

    He could have said” I myself don’t know what the exact limit of tolerance is, but they shouldn’t try to fine tune it, and it won’t get them anywhere anyway.”

    Iran is probably afraid, not only of a full scale war, which is unlikely, but of some specific targets being destroyed by bombing.

    Iran won’t start a war. And if Iran won’t start a war before being bombed, it won’t start it afterwards either because their position in a war would be worse. Iran is not being irrational – it’s just trying to play sharp and discourage more sanctions.

    They say Iran maybe wants to drive up the price of oil but that would be either because of higher insurance or a lower supply, and it s hard to see how either factor would not affect what Iran gets. Why should higher insurance rates not apply to Iran and why should making the strait of Hormuz unsafe not affect Iranian oil?

    Sammy Finkelman (d542b2)

  107. The negotiating table worked so well with the Norks…

    True, but at least the diminished number of Iranian speedboats won’t be causing mischief on tankers without the fear of being blown out of the water, and the Mullahs would be risking the existence of the rest of their two-bit navy.

    Paul Montagu (cbbfc4)

  108. 108. But that’s all assuming the tankers were damaged by Iranian interests. I’m not so sure that’s the case, Trump’s confidence notwithstanding.

    Gryph (08c844)

  109. 109. Gryph (08c844) — 6/16/2019 @ 8:14 am

    109.108. But that’s all assuming the tankers were damaged by Iranian interests. I’m not so sure that’s the case, Trump’s confidence notwithstanding

    Adam Schiff seems to agree as well, although he seemed to sort of blame it on Trump pulling out of the Iran deal.

    He also complained abou Trump damaging relations with Allies.

    Schiff also called it a screw-up (because the Iranians removed an unexploded mine) and said heads were rolling or going to roll in Iran.

    From Pompeo we get a refusal to comment on intelligence mattwrs, assertios tat the United states had made information available to other countries and he’s on the ohone today with more, asurances that nobody disgrees, and that there’s more evidence.

    Also he said in answer to questions that all options are on the table, including military ones, but he wanted to avoid saying war or bombing, but military acion would be legal. Pompeo also alluded to an Iranian attack on a U.S. drone that had cameras:

    https://abcnews.go.com/International/iran-attempted-shoot-us-drone-tanker-attack-site/story?id=63740229

    The Iranians, by the way, released the 23 prisoners they took (bceause it’s Iran they call them hostages) yesterday.

    Sammy Finkelman (d542b2)

  110. I’m not so sure that’s the case, Trump’s confidence notwithstanding.

    I don’t base anything on what Trump says. As Mr. Stephens mentioned, Trump may be a liar but the US military isn’t. Pompeo was CIA Director and he wouldn’t have made the claim without high confidence. And that is the problem with Trump in a situation like this. He lies so much that, when he says something that’s true, he can’t be taken at his word.

    Paul Montagu (cbbfc4)

  111. @95. Yes, keep hanging horse thieves on your plantation, Dave, and be sure your field darkies work after sunset– there’s full moon.

    DCSCA (797bc0) — 6/15/2019 @ 11:41 am

    This doesn’t make sense and I can’t see any reason for it except as a personal insult. You need to explain to me why it isn’t or apologize.

    DRJ (15874d)

  112. @112.Insult?? See #95. His implication to me was of “immorality” for stating “morality is a culturally driven transient;” it’s simply a vivid rebuttal and example of how ‘morality’ is obviously a transient as the examples cited were once accepted norms and now clearly not. If anybody needs to ‘apologize,’ it’s him to me. But it’s not a big deal; it’s a ‘transient.’

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  113. @106. And human nature since we crawled out of the slime.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  114. @104. You’re the one who voted for the bigot, not me.

    LOL he’s a philanderer, too, just like Tiger Woods.

    I voted for the Republican Party candidate for POTUS. And if that neuters the modern conservative movement, so be it.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  115. I view 95 as a comment about morality. Your comment called Dave a slaveholder.

    DRJ (15874d)

  116. @102. It doesn’t take much to destabilize ‘oil markets’ in this century. An oil spill, a refinery fire -intentional or accidental- can make prices rise. It’s a ubiquitous product once it’s in the system. There’s likely gasoline refined from ‘Iranian’ oil or ‘Russian’ oil in your gas tank. So lets have the Navy attack the fleet of Chevron tanker trucks and show them what’s what! There’s a lot of proxy tit-for-tat going on and nothing is ever as clear as it appears. If the Iranians – real Iranians– start doing an ‘I';; showou, I’ll hurt me’ by starting blowing up fixed assets in country– pipelines and off-loading facilities for tankers, then you can ask if it is in the U.S. ‘national interest’ for American taxpayers to go to the aid of assets partly O&O by global conglomerates. They do operate ‘private security’ forces, you know.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  117. @116. No, my comment cited an example tied to morality as an obvious transient. It’s as clear s glass.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  118. You told Dave to “keep hanging horse thieves on your plantation, Dave, and be sure your field darkies work after sunset– there’s full moon.” That is not a comparison, that is an accusation.

    DRJ (15874d)

  119. … it’s simply a vivid rebuttal and example of how ‘morality’ is obviously a transient as the examples cited were once accepted norms and now clearly not.

    See? That is how you make your point without a personal insult. You knew how to state your point but you went for the “vivid rebuttal” personal insult instead.

    And if you think Dave was saying you are immoral, ask him. Don’t get even with a vivid insult.

    DRJ (15874d)

  120. @119. Stop. Go back and read the flow of the conversation we were having. My comment cits a clear example o transient morality. And along with implying “immorality,” he has suggested “bigotry” as in #104, for voting for Trump. You voted for Trump. Don’t think either of us are bigots.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  121. He “implied” immorality and “suggested” bigotry. Meanwhile, you said he was a slaveholder. You didn’t imply, suggest, or compare him to a slaveholder, you said he was one.

    DRJ (15874d)

  122. Let’s assume you were simply making a vivid comparison and not a “get even” personal insult. Your point is that morality is transient. Things that were once fine can become immoral over time — like slaveholding, right?

    So given YOUR THEORY of transient morality, you should be especially aware that calling someone a slaveholder TODAY is much, much worse than identifying someone from 100 years ago as a slaveholder.

    In other words, apologize.

    DRJ (15874d)

  123. @123. Go back and read the flow of conversation. And ‘transient morality’ isn’t a “theory” at all, it is a fact of life; and common sense.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  124. You are amusingly stubborn but I will cut you slack today because it is Father’s Day. Don’t ask me to explain.

    DRJ (15874d)

  125. @123. Postscript- See #96. Some people roast weenies, others eat ‘hot dogs.’ ‘Morality’ is a transient.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  126. @125. :-) Back at you. Hope you have a good one– in our clan ‘mother’ get the honors on Father’s Day as hers died when she was 7, so her mother did the raing and as kids our was away a lot, so the ‘mothers’ get the honors- and we know they really do the ‘heavy lifting,’ anyway. 😉

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  127. If morality is transient/pragmatic/common sense, then how do you explain the 10 Commandments and the Bible (Old Testament for Jews and New Testament for Christians)? It that just history and not important today? Why has morality lasted centuries for some if your theory is indisputable?

    DRJ (15874d)

  128. @128. They’re the stripes along civilization’s highway but it’s common to cross the lines, isn’t it.

    But weren’t there 15???:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oZA2mBntrHk

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  129. It is common to be human and sin, but that doesn’t mean morality has changed.

    That is like saying when some/many cars exceed the speed limit on a road, there is no longer a speed limit or the speed limit has changed.

    DRJ (15874d)

  130. @130. Sure it has. In this land you can hold jobs and own property only white males held a few generations past; you can vote, wear shorter skirts, expect equal pay. In Saudi Arabia, you can finally drive, but still get stoned to death for crimes. Morality is a transient, just as is the ‘transporation’ along that highway- cars?? Horses to chariots, to wagons, to trains, planes and automobiles. The highways and byways adapt and accomodate.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  131. Laws change, societies change. Morality, not as much.

    DRJ (15874d)

  132. it’s like the argument clinic, disco grapples with concepts he doesn’t understand,

    https://pjmedia.com/richardfernandez/the-armies-of-shadow/

    narciso (d1f714)

  133. @133. Projection; speak for yourself.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  134. @132. Everything changes — laws, societies, moralities, the tides, the face of the planet; the polarity of the poles and the very stars themselves; the rates are the variant but change is a constant.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  135. there’s nothing new under the sun,

    https://www.biblestudytools.com/judges/passage/?q=judges+2:11-19

    narciso (d1f714)

  136. @106. We could ‘debate’ that these days over drinks at a bar in the Loop in Chicago, nk; even 50 years ago. But not 90; Volstead Act, ya’ know. ‘Morals’ of the times; But then, Capone was just being a good capitalist, servicing the supply and demands of the marketplace– and opened soup kitchens, too! 😉

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  137. I was thinking more along the lines that before 1972 rape carried the death penalty. But evolving sensibilities now make it rare even for murder.

    Desecrating the flag was considered immoral. Now making it illegal is considered immoral.

    On the small stuff, homosexuality was considered immoral. Now calling it immoral is considered immoral.

    Washington State made it harder to get tobacco than to get marijuana. Hookers get to sue a sitting President for defamation.

    Stuff like that.

    nk (dbc370)

  138. @138. Yes, those are ‘transients.’ If memory serves, there was a time when printing flags on disposable paper cups, napkins and picnic plates, stitching it on to clothing [Easy Rider – style] and such was not kosher. Hookers suing presidents… yes, well, back in the day they’d just get hired as typists or swim in the secretarial pool – ‘Fiddle & Faddle’ and so forth.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  139. Well, if it’s 1964 again, very thoughtful of you to bring the fire-hoses, I must say.

    Dave (1bb933)

  140. The attack on the U.S. drone happened before the attcks in the ships, so it was presumably, an attempt to prevent the U.S. from witnessing it (the drone wasn’t harmed but may have been moved away)

    The Pentagon today released much better video of the Iranians and the attempt to remove the mine that did not explode. (maybe it doesn’t have hat exact scene but it has the Iranian vessel near the damaged ship)

    Sammy Finkelman (d542b2)


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