Patterico's Pontifications

5/2/2019

In Our Civilized Society, Why Isn’t Everyone Pouncing On Democrat Lawmaker Saying “Kill Them Now Or Kill Them Later”?

Filed under: General — Dana @ 4:41 pm



[guest post by Dana]

This doesn’t seem hard but I guess if one is desperate to maintain the illusion that abortion is not about a baby but a faceless clump of cells, better to mock those who believe every life is sacred for their intense pushback, pouncing, and seizing after hearing the staggering comments made by a lawmaker rather than growing a moral spine and condemning advocacy for eugenics being played out on the floor of the Alabama House of Representatives.

This is Rep. John Rogers (D) filibustering in the Alabama State House during the lead up to the vote on a pro-life bill that would tighten up restrictions on abortion. .

In the first clip, Rogers bluntly embraces the utilitarian point of view on abortion:

It ought to be a woman’s choice. I’m not about to be a man and tell a woman what to do with her body. She has a right to make her decisions herself.

Some kids are unwanted, so you kill them now or you kill them later. You bring them in the world unwanted, unloved, you send them to the electric chair. So, you kill them now or you kill them later.

In the second clip, Rogers moves to straight-up eugenics, while at the same time unwittingly confirms that these are indeed, real life babies we are talking about:

He went on to explain that some children may be aborted because they are “retarded” and “half-deformed.”

Some parents can’t handle a child with problems. “It could be retarded. It might have no arms and no legs.”

Again, it’s unfathomable that everyone isn’t pouncing and seizing and condemning Rogers for his barbaric advocacy. What does it say about a culture when the right to kill is more highly-valued and more vigorously fought for than the right to live? How the most vulnerable are treated by a people, and the extent to which they are valued, reflects the soul of a society. When that society readily justifies the killing of innocent beings because they are less than perfect and even equates their short existence with an adult who was given the actual opportunity to live and breathe and know life, then the gig is up.

Today Rogers doubled-down on his statements:

The Al.com reporter pressed Rogers to clarify his remarks. “So you said they’re unwanted children, kill them now, it doesn’t matter, it’s the same thing as killing them later?” she asked.

“Right,” Rogers answered, continuing to justify his comments by citing the hardships people are facing in Alabama. “You close thirteen rural hospitals, and going through Medicare Expansion,” he said. “You got at least two people a night getting killed in our prisons, and then we keep locking them in prisons and building prisons — locking them up in prisons by the droves. So therefore, you kill them anyway. You denying them the right to get food stamps. You got to get drug tested to get food stamps–’cause you on drugs mean you starve to death!” Rogers exclaimed. “So therefore, you kill them anyways.”

With permission, I am sharing this because it presents a stark – and very real – contrast to Rogers’ claims. Several weeks ago a friend shared with me that her daughter’s close friend had been told by doctors in her 17th week of pregnancy that her baby would be born with a rare birth defect known as Encephalocele. The defect was irreparable. Yet, even when hearing the diagnosis, the young woman of faith was compelled to carry the baby as long as she was able. Because whether perfect or imperfect, this baby was a testimony that life was being housed in her womb, and she would continue to provide shelter and nourishment and every other miraculous gift a mother’s body provides on the journey to life. In spite of the doctors not expecting the baby to survive past 25 weeks gestation, a full-term baby girl was delivered several weeks ago via C-section. For the short 21 hours of her life, the baby rested on her mother’s breast and remained there while both mother and father enveloped her in their mighty love. A mother who, although knowing that the odds of survival were extremely low, chose to give her baby breath and welcome her to the world.

This unwavering commitment to life-affirming principles is humbling. As this young couple now make their way through a season of mourning, please say a prayer for them. Had she opted to abort upon finding out about the rare birth defect, there would have been no condemnation from me. Only compassionate prayers. Life can be brutally cruel. It seems that between its trials and tribulations, we are gifted with a few golden moments to tuck away in our hearts that can later be pulled out when the unbearable happens. It is then that we are reminded of Hope and Grace and enduring Love. And that it won’t always be like this. For the believer, suffering in the name of Christ is the heart of faith. It looks to the eternal with sureness that at the end of our days, we will be reunited with those loved ones who have gone before us. This young woman believed that abortion was not an option. To her, the only option was life – no matter how fleeting it might be. And one tiny 6 lb. 15 oz. wisp of baby girl was able to know and receive that breath of love for a brief moment. Never unwanted, never rejected because of her imperfections, simply loved beyond all description.

(Cross-posted at The Jury Talks Back.)

–Dana

55 Responses to “In Our Civilized Society, Why Isn’t Everyone Pouncing On Democrat Lawmaker Saying “Kill Them Now Or Kill Them Later”?”

  1. I’ll gladly pounce, seize and intensely push back on idiots like this yahoo every day of the week. (FYI, he assumed of in 1982.)

    Dana (779465)

  2. I think part of it has to do with the fact that the opinion of a back bencher state rep from Alabama state rep isn’t really a big deal. According to ballotpedia it pays 48K a year…this is not an influential voice for the dems.

    time123 (d54166)

  3. That may be so, time123, but I think he was actually exposing the real belief of those on the left that are pushing hard for unfettered access to abortion through the ninth month. He just wasn’t savvy enough to deflect and distract.

    Dana (779465)

  4. This is telling:

    State Rep. Rich Wingo, R-Tuscaloosa, said that the bill challenges Roe v. Wade, going to the heart of the 1973 Supreme Court decision that legalized abortion.

    Wingo said that the abortion clinic in Tuscaloosa performs 3,500 abortions a year.

    “There are more abortions in Tuscaloosa than births,” Wingo said.

    Tuscaloosa has a population of around 100,000 people.

    Dana (779465)

  5. That’s possible.

    It’s also possible that he was trying and failing to articulate the argument that there is a inconsistent regard for the sanctity of life. Many in the pro-life movement oppose abortion, but also oppose welfare policies that would greatly benefit children born to low income house holds.

    I personally don’ see this as a real inconsistency if analyzed through a framework of competing goods and long term, societal incentives. But i recognize not everyone comes to the same conclusion as I do and there are people that really believe it’s hypocrytical to be both pro-death penalty and pro-life.

    He might be trying to make that argument. He might also be a complete moron. I have 5$ on “both”

    But I’d like to talk to you about something else you wrote if I could, with as much respect and sensitivity as I can. If you’d rather skip it that’s fine. If I come across as disrespectful or cruel please know it’s unintentional and a result of poor communication on my part.

    I’d like to ask you a question about this

    With permission, I am sharing this because it presents a stark – and very real – contrast to Rogers’ claims. Several weeks ago a friend shared with me that her daughter’s close friend had been told by doctors in her 17th week of pregnancy that her baby would be born with a rare birth defect known as Encephalocele. The defect was irreparable. Yet, even when hearing the diagnosis, the young woman of faith was compelled to carry the baby as long as she was able. Because whether perfect or imperfect, this baby was a testimony that life was being housed in her womb, and she would continue to provide shelter and nourishment and every other miraculous gift a mother’s body provides on the journey to life. In spite of the doctors not expecting the baby to survive past 25 weeks gestation, a full-term baby girl was delivered several weeks ago via C-section. For the short 21 hours of her life, the baby rested on her mother’s breast and remained there while both mother and father enveloped her in their mighty love. A mother who, although knowing that the odds of survival were extremely low, chose to give her baby breath and welcome her to the world.

    First, I’m very sorry for these parents loss. I have children and I can’t imagine going through that.

    But this is a situation where the doctors identified that the child would not live very long. The child exceeded their predictions, but not by any large amount.

    If the mother in a similar case had determined that it would be terrible to her physical and mental health to continue with the pregnancy to this final conclusion would you have denied her the right to make the choice on how to proceed?

    I think i understand how your faith answers this, but not every faith yields the same results. I’ll abstain from piling on horrible additional details to the hypothetical. I’m sure anyone could create those details. I’ll just lay out my conclusion; in heart breaking circumstances like this I think the state should leave the choices to the people directly involved. The more we can hew to that principle the less evil we will do.

    I’m genuinely interested in your thoughts.

    time123 (d54166)

  6. was responding to comment 3. Did not see comment 4 until I posted.

    time123 (d54166)

  7. 6 lbs. 15 oz. My God.

    I recall posting here about fifteen months ago that my own daughter was 6 lbs. 8 oz. when she was born. Smaller. The same.

    Knowing what I know now – what I know now, from my wife and my daughter – I cannot imagine the pain that would accompany the loss of that child after those 21 hours. Nor can I imagine the courage it would take to bear that pain, or the paradoxical joy-sorrow that would come from bearing it.

    My brother insists that the greatest truths manifest themselves in paradoxes. I think he is right, and I think this young woman has learned one of the greatest truths.

    Leviticus (307f49)

  8. You’re right, Dana. Rep. Rogers’ vile words should get a lot more attention.

    Paul Montagu (7968e9)

  9. Isn’t it amazing how being in the delivery room and experiencing childbirth (whether mom or dad) can change or enhance one’s views? All of a sudden, one’s scope and depth of love explodes. And often we wonder, whatever did we do before that little miracle interrupted our lives. It all pales in comparison.

    I believe that the sorrow she is walking through now will be worked into her soul, down past the bone into a quiet, deep wisdom, an empathetic heart, and a richness that might not have come through other means. This is the rarest of love, I think.

    Dana (779465)

  10. I’m all for making abortion retroactive. Can we start with this mook?

    Bob Smith (5a4596)

  11. who wants to be called a abortophobic racist?

    mg (8cbc69)

  12. Here’s the thing: if you take the view that society (and to the left that pretty much means government) has an obligation to take care of every single individual by providing them with health care, food if needed, free education for 17 or more years should they desire it, housing, and perhaps even gainful employment, then you inevitably come to the conclusion that you (a) need fewer people overall and (b) need vastly fewer people who require extensive government help beyond the standard offerings.

    That’s why it seems so logical to many progressives to abort babies who have various defects, and that’s why with clowns like this Alabama representative it ends up filtering down to aborting most of the babies from the underclass. Ultimately we end up like Holland and other nations with legalized euthanasia, where we start to encourage our sick senior citizens and even younger citizens to voluntarily (and maybe sometimes involuntarily) check-out so that they stop being a drain on our budget. Yeah, I know that slippery slope arguments are overused in general, but I think we have ample evidence that once we start determining whose life is worth living, we have a problem drawing a consistent line.

    JVW (54fd0b)

  13. I’ve been saying it for years: The very concept of “fetal homicide” laws chill me to the bone. The only difference that makes killing a baby legal is the desire of the mother to kill it. That ought to give every right-thinking person pause.

    Gryph (08c844)

  14. Isn’t it amazing how being in the delivery room and experiencing childbirth (whether mom or dad) can change or enhance one’s views?

    I read somewhere once many years ago — and I have no way of knowing if this is really true — that the actor/director Warren Beatty, whom you might recall was very much a Democrat activist in the 1980s and 90s and was being encouraged at one point to seek the party’s Presidential nomination in 2000, told friends in private that the reason he declined to seek public office is because the birth of his children turned him against abortion on demand and he knew he could never be nominated as a Democrat unless he was 100% committed to the NARAL agenda.

    JVW (54fd0b)

  15. a negotio perambulante in tenebris

    nk (dbc370)

  16. Wingo said that the abortion clinic in Tuscaloosa performs 3,500 abortions a year.

    That’s around 10/day.

    in heart breaking circumstances like this I think the state should leave the choices to the people directly involved. The more we can hew to that principle the less evil we will do.

    Our current principals are allowing a lot of evil. We could probably stand to dial it back a little.

    Frosty, Fp (7540e9)

  17. I suspect that the Alabama state house isn’t the place to find a main-stream view of many political issues.

    However, it sounds to me like he’s attempting to say that the people who are currently invested in making sure that all babies are born absolutely don’t care when they end up on death row. Theoretically speaking, if one is true to Catholic belief, one believes in the seamless garment theory of life, so is pro-life from conception to natural death and anyone who was anti-abortion but pro-death penalty would be hypocritical. He also seems to have some difficulty with the idea of disabled people, so boo him.

    As far as your friend’s daughter’s friend, I’m glad she was able to make the right decision for her, but I would never ever want to force someones decision in a situation like that.

    Nic (896fdf)

  18. 16. If only “leaving choices to the people directly involved” was a principle they really believed in. I think we know better.

    Gryph (08c844)

  19. This seems like a good thread to bring this up; anyone seen RBG lately? I think we should be getting proof-of-life updates on her at least monthly.

    The pro-abortion crowd should lobby for some of the $2T from the other thread for an RBG life support system.

    Frosty, Fp (7540e9)

  20. So by that logic, should there have been 100 million, 150 million abortions, you see the gosnell or perhaps thanos level China killed 60 million in a shorter period, how many is enough.

    Narciso (4ea61d)

  21. Well said, JVW @ 12.

    Dana (779465)

  22. When Rep. Rogers says, “Some kids are unwanted, so you kill them now or you kill them later. You bring them in the world unwanted, unloved, you send them to the electric chair. So, you kill them now or you kill them later”, I am revolted, but I also need to admit that there is some truth to the way he describes the world we live in.

    “Pro-life” needs to be more than just “pro-birth” or “anti-abortion.”

    John B Boddie (66f464)

  23. When Planned Parenthood first started arguing for legalized abortion, around 1962, birth defects was one of the principle reasons given. But they dropped it later and never talk about it, but it;s on;y rape, incest and the life or health of the mother. I think it still is given as aimportant reason for legal abortion in otehr countries.

    This idea that unaborted babies will become criminals seems like something out of Freakonomiics.

    They thought it was the reason crime started dropping in the late 1980s..

    I think that is wrong. I think the reason was the HIV epidemic expanding ito IV drug users.

    John Rogers is as wrong as Todd Akin.
    .

    Sammy Finkelman (30b6b6)

  24. This kind of terrible defect is where prohibitions against abortion seem most cruel. Equally cruel would be a requirement to abort.

    But suppose the defect had not been a fatal one, exactly, just one that would leave the child a vegetable for all its days. Anencephaly, for example. Would the same choice be made?

    Kevin M (21ca15)

  25. The same problem obtains in western Europe, various methods have caused native populations to drop and they have been replaced by mass immigration particularly from the former colonies in Africa and asia.

    Narciso (71ac81)

  26. @22 There’s so much wrong with his logic it’s hard to pick a place to start. Rogers is an idiot. The only open question is whether he’s an evil idiot or just the normal kind.

    The cradle to grave problem isn’t on pro-lifers. It’s enough to say no baby killing.

    If Rogers believed what he’s saying why isn’t he telling his constituents who are unwanted and unloved to kill themselves?

    Frosty, Fp (7540e9)

  27. JVW–

    Legal euthanasia brings up some issues even without government health care.

    Let’s say that grandma is failing due to some terrible cancer. She has Alzheimer’s and her children have a Power of Attorney — she has no way of choosing for herself. She is in a great deal of pain and being given serious narcotics to mitigate it, but clearly there is still pain.

    But her family will not let her go and want the insurance company to pay some 100s of thousands to let her live another couple of months. The insurance company declines, and suggests euthanasia as both the cost-effective and humane alternative. Doctors differ in their views, but none of them offers to pay for further treatment.

    Is the insurance company being a monster here? Does it make a difference if it’s the state?

    Kevin M (21ca15)

  28. Abortion is tough precisely because it’s easy to lose perspective of the woman….and what anti-abortion laws are asking that women to do. No law can make a mother love or want her unborn child. And only that mother assumes the risk of childbirth and in some cases the cost…as well as the cost required to modify one’s life to be pregnant and possibly become a parent. Most women confronting an unplanned pregnancy do not have a husband by her side…..and may in fact be being pressured by her “partner” to abort. The state cannot assume custodianship of the fetus prior to viability….as it could for an abused or neglected child brought to its attention…woman are not able to pass on the responsibility of take a baby to term. Men have no analogous physical or intimate requirement as what is being asked of the women….society is just asking women to accept this responsibility….or is it a duty?

    I think we should always do everything in our power to persuade a woman to choose life…..and make that choice as practical as possible….but in the end…we cannot walk in her shoes….and women are smart enough to make these decisions. Can there be regrets….guilt? Certainly…abortion is horrible…it’s a rejection of our most basic biology….but it’s also something that I only know about because the pregnant woman chooses to share the information….should we weaponize that against her….do we push her into that back alley? Tough questions from the comfort of my chair…

    AJ_Liberty (165d19)

  29. @28 It is not really that tough. An unplanned pregnancy isn’t some random unforeseen happenstance of fate. The same woman you say is smart and responsible enough to make the decision to kill a baby wasn’t smart or responsible enough to not get pregnant.

    Frosty, Fp (7540e9)

  30. Yes abortion is a symptom of a dysfunctional culture, that has been compounded by economic disincentives, but roe vs wade made it very easy for men to disengage from any relationship and women not to involve themselves. With the hindsight of nearly 50 yearsd

    Narciso (71ac81)

  31. @29, So one mistake gives you authority to strip her of her bodily autonomy….and compel her to carry a fetus she neither loves or wants? Are you willing to take custody of the fetus post viability regardless of situation..and pay for all and any medical costs? My suspicion is that your moral outrage only goes so far….there is no cost to holding your view.

    AJ_Liberty (165d19)

  32. Tonight State Rep. Rogers said that Donald Trump Jr. is proof that abortions are necessary:

    “Hit back twice as hard,” amirite?

    Dave (1bb933)

  33. AJ,

    one mistake gives you the ability to murder an innocent unborn child?

    NJRob (4d595c)

  34. Just notice who is on the side of murdering the innocent. Choose wisely.

    NJRob (4d595c)

  35. AJ,

    that “one mistake” puts a man on the hook for the rest of his life if the woman names him dad.

    NJRob (4d595c)

  36. There is no other situation in the US where we demand a person risk their life or health for another. If I am in the process of trying to pull someone back over the edge of a cliff (a thing I have consciously chosen to do) and I feel like I’m slipping and they won’t let go, I can make them let go, even if they will fall to their death. I am allowed to save myself. A parent is also not legally responsible to save their own born child at a risk to their life or health not with a blood transfusion or a kidney and a blood transfusion is significantly less physically traumatic than pregnancy. We allow people to make their own decisions about their responsibility and their danger for themselves and even if you think someone is deplorable for their decision not to donate a kidney to their kid or for shaking someone off who is pulling them of a cliff, those are still legal.

    Nic (896fdf)

  37. Attacking capitalism in action like for profit abortion mills is communism. Go move to venezuela if you don’t like capitalist making a profit. Next you will be complaining about arms merchants making a profit on war.

    lany (043b16)

  38. Dana,

    Here I am reading the blog as is my daily tradition and reading about this man’s vile comments and you hit my right in the feels.

    My son, like your friend, was born with a rare encepholacele. We’ve been incredibly blessed to have amazing doctors support us and our decisions. His encepholacele is a little different because it protrudes into his nasal cavity so from the outside he looks “normal.” It has some lasting impacts and we have considered a brain surgery, but the risks are incredible and we have elected to continue without surgery.

    Here’s the thing: our son is amazing. He’s almost 5 now and caring, smart, and truly a joy. He has endured countless doctor’s appointments and hours of weekly physical, occupational, and speech therapy, but he has what may be the most positive attitude I have ever seen. Just from observing his attitude and approach to life – even as a 4 year old – I have learned more from him then he will ever learn from me.

    I, of course, wish he was born free of this (and a few other) life-long conditions. But, he has been such an important lesson for me that I am almost thankful for them. He isn’t a burden on his family nor on society. He is my greatest gift and society will be better off having him in it then not.

    Thank you for your comments.

    Ryan (831aa5)

  39. As horrible and uncivil as our society has become, I find these comments to be depressing and beyond the pale. That we have reached the point where an elected official can say these things in public and all the media does is focus on conservatives “pouncing” says all that you need to know about the media and about this official.

    There are plenty of people who fit his description, and yet were not aborted, and went on to lead good and productive lives. Are we now adopting eugenics as some kind of policy?

    Rochf (877dba)

  40. @36 I’m still subject to the draft. There is at least one other situation in the US where we could demand a person risk their life or health for another.

    Granted, based on the stats I’ve got we kill more babies per year now than we drafted per year after WW2.

    Frosty, Fp (7540e9)

  41. Not really. It’s a demand that you risk your life or health for your country. I didn’t realize you were that young.

    Nic (896fdf)

  42. @41 No one really risks their lives or health for their country. I guess some people might convince themselves of that but people are doing that for their fellow Americans. But this is a distinction without much difference.

    Another problem with your analogy is that you expand it to include passive inaction. If your analogy holds it is with ‘I am allowed to save myself’. The stats on abortion indicate that the numbers of times it’s done to save the life of the mother is very small.

    The required to save argument otherwise is pretty weak. Abortion is a willful action and when we’re talking about the heartbeat bills and late-term abortions, etc. we’re not talking about edge cases where people are being required to choose between their death and the death of an unborn child.

    Frosty, Fp (7540e9)

  43. Ryan @ 38,

    Thank you for sharing such an inspiring story. With that, I wondered if you would be willing to share about you and your wife’s decision making process with regard to having your little when you found out about the defect? What compelled you to go forward when so many others wouldn’t?
    Unfortunately, the problem for the little baby girl in the post was right at the base of the brain stem – the worst place possible. To me, that made the young woman’s decision to carry her all the more noble.

    I so appreciate your opening up and taking the time to enlighten and inspire us all. I believe people like Rogers and those who are on the same page as him need to hear more from people like you. Of course, you are the last people they want to hear from…

    Dana (779465)

  44. If they had a choice very few would do it at all. Pregnancy is the draft, but, like, for chicks. Really?

    Everyone here pro-draft?

    If we are talking about late term abortions we are in fact talking about the edge cases. It’s pretty much the only thing we are talking about in late term abortions.

    Pregnancy is ongoing effort for a woman’s body. It doesn’t look that hard from the outside, but every single pregnancy presents a health risk for the woman involved. Especially in the US, where the maternal mortality rate is unacceptably high for a developed country, but besides that, things like gestational diabetes are very very common. There are always risks.

    As far as passivity, I’m sure, then, that you must be pro-medical abortion, right? All that does is return a woman’s body to a passive state, where it just isn’t making the hormones to continue the pregnancy. No?

    Nic (896fdf)

  45. #39 Are we now adopting eugenics as some kind of policy?

    This has always been the underlying policy. It started as eugenics and population control and that never changed. We’ve layered other things on top of that, especially since eugenics and population control got such bad press. The current push for late-term abortions and fight against heartbeat laws just pull this out into the light.

    But do the math on the Tuscaloosa numbers above. If those numbers are per year how many more high schools will need to be built just in that relatively small city? Granted reducing abortion wouldn’t put exactly 3500 people into the local population per year but I think everyone thinks it would put significantly more. And the belief is that those people would generally be in poor or lower class households.

    Frosty, Fp (7540e9)

  46. 45, actually It might be just a lot of “Roll Tide” euphoria gone awry that accounts for that high number, so the question becomes how many day-care equipped student housing must be provided but beyond that, is Tuscaloosa the closest functioning clinic to parts of 4 adjacent states (MS, GA, panhandle FL, LA)? Plus a visit to college is probably a good excuse to tell one’s parents if you are going there to have one.

    urbanleftbehind (5eecdb)

  47. @44 You said there are no other cases. I gave you another case. It doesn’t matter if everyone is in favor of it. It’s still a thing right?

    Frosty, Fp (7540e9)

  48. @46 There are other clinics in the state as well as GA, MS, and FL. We can certainly debate the number and coverage area. It’s a fair point that Tuscaloosa services a larger area than just that city. But it isn’t the only source in the region.

    Frosty, Fp (7540e9)

  49. Pregnancy is ongoing effort for a woman’s body. It doesn’t look that hard from the outside, but every single pregnancy presents a health risk for the woman involved. Especially in the US, where the maternal mortality rate is unacceptably high for a developed country, but besides that, things like gestational diabetes are very very common. There are always risks.

    As far as passivity, I’m sure, then, that you must be pro-medical abortion, right? All that does is return a woman’s body to a passive state, where it just isn’t making the hormones to continue the pregnancy. No?

    Nic (896fdf) — 5/3/2019 @ 9:59 am

    You do realize you’re talking about another human life, right? Or do you consider a developing child to be a tumor?

    NJRob (4d595c)

  50. It may be easier for people who aren’t parents to countenance abortion, even in late third trimester.

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  51. “murder an innocent unborn child”

    Are you willing to pay for the delivery and raise or subsidize the child….or does your interest in that innocent child end with forcing the unwilling mother take it to term? I won’t even ask about the costs of any complications that occur during child birth…it’s pretty clear that the health and well being of the mother is not on your radar.

    “You do realize you’re talking about another human life, right?”

    Yes, but it’s one that is not viable outside of the womb…no amount of technology or human intervention can effectively replace the womb. Society cannot step in and assume parental responsibilities. Abortion is not some new concept…you’re just inserting yourself in a very difficult situation….if you don’t care about the woman, why should that woman care about your opinion?

    AJ_Liberty (ec7f74)

  52. Ryan @ 38,

    Thank you for that. This issue is terribly fraught with moral, legal, emotional and financial considerations, and the impact of decisions (whether by the parents or insurance companies or government or doctors) partially falls on other people. I fear there is no good answer as all choices have the potential for harm to someone. One size does not fit all, yet out system seems intent on saying it does.

    Kevin M (21ca15)

  53. AJ,

    assumptions not in evidence. But you clearly are trying to minimize the impact of murdering a child much the same that the leftist lawmaker does. Do you think the child is a burden on the state or will end up in incarceration anyway so much be killed?

    NJRob (4d595c)

  54. @51

    Are you willing to pay for the delivery and raise or subsidize the child

    If I say I’m not willing to subsidize anyone are we going to start talking about killing the homeless? That’s basically Rogers argument. His point is that we’re arguing about when we kill people, not whether we kill them. He doesn’t even argue that this isn’t killing people. He’s just arguing efficiency.

    but it’s one that is not viable outside of the womb

    This is the same utilitarian argument. If you don’t kill it then it would become viable. Once it’s born if you just left it on the floor and didn’t do anything it wouldn’t survive either. Sure, now we’ve got options on who we can get to take responsibility but that doesn’t change this version of the viability argument.

    All of this is based on the underlying assumption that getting pregnant is something that just happens to women. Like getting cancer. The vast majority of abortions are elective. All of those pregnancies could be prevented.

    Frosty, Fp (7540e9)

  55. I am pro life, pro capital punishment, anti welfare or socialism of any kind as the law in all its magnificent equality for bids the rich as well sa the poor from sleeping under bridges. Private charity no tax cuts if some fool want to throw away his money on charity ok as long as I don’t have to. this is the conservative libertarian motto. Who is john gault? Ayn rand’s boy friend william edward hickman.

    lany (0cdd3e)


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