Patterico's Pontifications

3/1/2019

Clean Hands: President Trump Gives Kim Jong Un A Pass In The Death Of Otto Warmbier

Filed under: General — Dana @ 2:08 pm

[guest post by Dana]

While still in Vietnam, President Trump was asked if he had discussed college student Otto Warmbier with Kim Jong Un. The 22-year old had been detained in North Korea after being convicted for stealing a propaganda poster. He was released after a year, only to return home in a comatose state and dying shortly thereafter.

Talking in Vietnam on Thursday about Kim’s role in the fate of Warmbier, who died in June 2017, Trump said: “He felt badly about it. He felt very badly.” He added that the two leaders had discussed Warmbier’s death privately. He added: “He tells me that he didn’t know about it and I will take him at his word.”

Moreover, claiming that he didn’t believe leadership knew about it, he claimed that it would not have been in Kim’s interest to so severely wound an American:

…Trump told reporters he believed Kim’s denial in part because it would not be in Kim’s interest for Warmbier to wind up in a coma.

“I don’t think that the top leadership knew about it,” Trump said. “I don’t believe that he (Kim) would have allowed that to happen.”

Earlier in 2017, President Trump expressed his belief that Warmbier was “tortured beyond belief by North Korea.”

As a reminder, during the summit in Hanoi, the president had referred to the murderous leader as a “friend”.

Responding to the president’s belief that Kim Jong Un was unaware of Warmbier, his parents, Fred and Cindy Warmbier rebuked Trump, saying:

We have been respectful during this summit process. Now we must speak out. Kim and his evil regime are responsible for the death of our son Otto. Kim and his evil regime are responsible for unimaginable cruelty and inhumanity. No excuses or lavish praise can change that.

As a result of the backlash for Trump’s comments, Kellyanne Conway did cleanup duty on Fox News earlier today:

White House Counselor Kellyanne Conway clarified in an interview Friday on Fox News, however, that the president agrees with the family and holds North Korea “responsible.” She said Trump was only saying there’s no indication Kim knew what happened at the time.

“Of course he holds North Korea responsible. He has deep affection and shares the grief of the Warmbier family. That will never end,” she said.

Jerry Dunleavy points out that when compared with the testimony given by expert witnesses at the evidentiary hearing, Trump’s belief that Kim Jong Un was not aware of Otto Warmbier doesn’t hold up:

Sung-Yoon Lee, a Korea specialist at the Fletcher School of Law and Diplomacy at Tufts University, and David Hawk, a consultant for the Committee on North Korean Human Rights who teaches at the University of South Florida, both testified that the North Korean government was responsible for the torture and death of Otto.

Sung-Yoon Lee said: “North Korea had been planning to conduct various provocative weapons tests all along, and to have a young American detainee would have provided North Korea not only with an added layer of security, a security blanket, but have a useful pawn with which North Korea could compel the U.S.” He added that “hostage-taking is a very well-honed craft and tool of North Korea’s diplomacy.”

Lee said Otto’s detention was a strategic decision by the North Korean government: “I see calculated provocation, hostage taking as North Korea is preparing for a major provocation like its first nuclear test in three years, its first long-range missile test in three years.”

Lee also agreed with the judge’s statement that “North Korea seized and maintained custody of Otto in order to further its policy goals.” He said that Otto was seized during a presidential election year in the United States and at a time when North Korea hadn’t tested a nuclear weapon in three years.

Yet “just four days after detaining Otto Warmbier, North Korea conducted a nuclear test on Jan. 6, which is two days shy of Kim Jong Un’s birthday.” And the “show trial and confession” of Otto was “very much a staple mode of operation in the North Korean system.”

Lee said: “Kim Jong Un is the Supreme Leader… In Korean culture, Korean history, the man on top has always held supreme power, the Korean kings of the past.” North Korea was “the most advanced, most perfected totalitarian state in world history” and had a unique ability “to coerce, to control, to terrorize people, and to invade their private realm.”

David Hawk spoke about the “systemic and regularized torture in the initial places of detention and interrogation” in North Korea. He was clearly being interrogated, and they wanted a confession from him. And he was obviously in his testimony scared for his life if he didn’t confess to hostile acts taken on behalf of the U.S. government.”

Further:

Lee told the Washington Examiner: “The notion that Kim Jong Un, the supreme leader of the nation with the most rigidly vertical power hierarchy in history, was uninformed of the hostage-taking, torture, and extrajudicial killing of Otto Warmbier … is ludicrous.”

He added that Trump’s comments “challenge the letter and spirit of the landmark ruling by a federal judge in the case of Warmbiers vs DPRK” and “unwittingly empower the criminal regime of Kim Jong Un.”

This would be consistent, given President Trump’s admiration for strongmen. (See: Kim Jong Un, Vladimir Putin, Saudi Crown Prince Mohammad bin Salman, Xi Jinping, among others.)

As I was finishing this post, I checked once more to see if the President had tweeted about the matter, given the backlash he has faced. Sure enough:

Interestingly, he doesn’t specifically call out Kim Jong Un as being responsible for the death of Warmbier. Instead, he sticks with “North Korea,” essentially still giving Kim Jong Un a pass.

(Cross-posted at The Jury Talks Back.)

–Dana

Comments (136)

136 Responses to “Clean Hands: President Trump Gives Kim Jong Un A Pass In The Death Of Otto Warmbier”

Stunning ignorance? Naivete? Or a true believer in the word of Kim Jong Un? Just don’t claim it’s some game of 12 dimensional chess and we just aren’t smart enough to know…

Also reading that another concession has been made to North Korea:

The U.S. military is preparing to announce that annual large-scale joint exercises conducted with South Korea every spring will no longer be held
Dana (023079) — 3/1/2019 @ 2:12 pm
1. I dunno. But what I do know is, politicians gonna politic.
Gryph (cd639b) — 3/1/2019 @ 2:13 pm
Send Mueller into N.K. if you want Un to answer to a real pro.
mg (8cbc69) — 3/1/2019 @ 3:02 pm
‘Instead, he sticks with “North Korea,” essentially still giving Kim Jong Un a pass.’

Maybe he looked into his eyes and saw his soul.

We became so woke to diplomacy of this sort as of January 20, 2017.
Munroe (35a803) — 3/1/2019 @ 3:07 pm
America should stand for better values than excusing murderous dictators we fear or who have something we want, but apparently not.
DRJ (15874d) — 3/1/2019 @ 3:07 pm
Should we kill him like the Bush regime killed saddam?
mg (8cbc69) — 3/1/2019 @ 3:18 pm
DRJ – i’m not aware that there’s any time in the modern era (defined as post-WW2) during which we *weren’t* excusing some murderous dictator or another.
aphrael (33dc58) — 3/1/2019 @ 3:21 pm
Donald Trump has a pathological aversion to criticizing dictators. it’s just weird.
JRH (fe281f) — 3/1/2019 @ 3:23 pm
Obama used operative research in making decisions with N.K. and Trump, he is colluding with Un.
mg (8cbc69) — 3/1/2019 @ 3:41 pm
Kim is a murderous dictator who deserves to be shoved into a wood-chipper. But that doen’t move negotiations forward. Nixon negotiated with Mao and Chou. We supported Somoza and Pinochet. OUR hands have never been clean, and insisting they are is right up there with “Gentlemen don’t read other gentlemen’s mail.”

Trump has gone the extra mile. NO ONE can say that he did not try and try past the point of reasonableness. Now, he’s done. At least I pray he is done.

Back to Plan A, as Trump himself explained long ago on Meet the Press:

TIM RUSSERT, MEET THE PRESS: Let me talk about some of the issues. One is North Korea. And you say that you, as president, would be willing to launch a pre-emptive strike against North Korea’s nuclear capability.

MR. TRUMP: First, I’d negotiate. I would negotiate like crazy. And I’d make sure that we tried to get the best deal possible. Look, Tim, if a man walks up to you on a street in Washington because this doesn’t happen, of course, in New York. But if a man walks up and puts a gun to your head and says, “Give me your money,” wouldn’t you rather know where he’s coming from before he had the gun in his hand? And these people in three or four years are going to be having nuclear weapons. They’re going to have those weapons pointed all over the world and specifically at the United States.

And wouldn’t you be better off solving this really potentially, unbelievableand the biggest problem? I mean, we can talk about the economy, we can talk about Social Security. The biggest problem this world has is nuclear proliferation. And we have a country out there, North Korea, which is sort of wacko, which is not a bunch of dummies. And they are going out and they are developing nuclear weapons. And they’re not doing it because they’re having fun doing it. They’re doing it for a reason. And wouldn’t it be good to sit down and really negotiate something and ideally negotiate? Now, if that negotiation doesn’t work, you’d better solve the problem now than solve it later, Tim. And you know it and every politician knows it, and nobody wants to talk about it.

https://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2017/08/09/trump_in_1999_we_better_do_something_now_north_korea_thinks_were_a_bunch_of_dummies.html

Video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p7nrU4cEWRk
Kevin M (21ca15) — 3/1/2019 @ 3:42 pm
Of all the sh!thole countries, the N.orth Korean people deserve a break. The people of Noth Korea are not crazy like the middle east. If Un makes a few decisions that lessen his nuke threat towards the civilized world the North Korean people would benefit having sanctions lifted. 25 million people creates a lot of consuming.
mg (8cbc69) — 3/1/2019 @ 3:56 pm
The problem with the Kims is that they took nuclear reactor help under the provisions of the NNPT, whereby they gave up for all time any right to create or have nuclear weapons, and gained the assurance that such would not be used against them.

Then they used the reactors provided to create nuclear weapons. This MUST be punished and it MUST end with the Kims having no nukes and no weapons-grade material. If it does not, then the NNPT has to teeth and the umpty-ump other countries which made the same deal will feel free to renege, too.

You had better believe that Iran is watching how this plays out.
Kevin M (21ca15) — 3/1/2019 @ 4:04 pm
aphrael, do you equate accepting the existence of dictators with making excuses for their bad acts?
DRJ (15874d) — 3/1/2019 @ 4:07 pm
It is too bad that most of what Trump does is viewed through hate- (or stooge-) colored glasses. The tribalism isn’t helpful.
Kevin M (21ca15) — 3/1/2019 @ 4:07 pm
Can you explain your hate/stooge comment?
DRJ (15874d) — 3/1/2019 @ 4:08 pm
Consider the timing…

This was RIGHT before Trump’s lunch meeting that he walked out on Kim.

Couldn’t this be Trump hamfisted way of not poisoning the waters during a diplomatic negotiations?

What would ya’ll rather Trump do instead? Call Kim out in a public press conference right before engaging negotiations?
whembly (f68468) — 3/1/2019 @ 4:10 pm
DRJ, do you accept the existence of negotiations without bringing up every point of contention? Does the killing of the fool who went to North Korea change your view of the Kims, North Korea, or Donald Trump?

Guy put his head in the lion’s mouth and got it bit off. Blame the lion?

More important things on the table, such as trying to avoid a short but brutal war.
Kevin M (21ca15) — 3/1/2019 @ 4:13 pm
Can you explain your hate/stooge comment?

Yes. The discussion of Trump, or what Trump does, in inevitably played as a team sport. There are the people whose hate overcomes them and leads them to attack normal behavior, and there are those that behave as his stooges, and who will defend any excess.
Kevin M (21ca15) — 3/1/2019 @ 4:16 pm
I could name players on the two teams (not everyone here) but I won’t. We all pretty much know who they are.
Kevin M (21ca15) — 3/1/2019 @ 4:17 pm
Unforced error on the part of Trump. IF an error it was and not his usual game of creating tempests in teapots with the collusion of the #SlowNewsDay media. That was not the time or place to discuss Otto Warmbier and a younger, more mentally alert, and less doty person would have said so.
nk (9651fb) — 3/1/2019 @ 4:46 pm
And you all know that Warmbier was a victim of asphexiation right?
Of the kind that occurs with, among other things, waterboarding?
nk (9651fb) — 3/1/2019 @ 4:49 pm
*asphyxiation*
nk (9651fb) — 3/1/2019 @ 4:51 pm
Unforced error on the part of Trump.

Also an asinine media question. But yeah, no one has ever accused this later-model Trump of a steel-trap mind.
Kevin M (21ca15) — 3/1/2019 @ 4:55 pm
Of the kind that occurs with, among other things, waterboarding?

So, this is W’s fault for inventing torture? Not sure what you mean. Asphyxiation can happen lots of other ways, like a plastic bag, a pillow, or old-fashioned LAPD choke hold.
Kevin M (21ca15) — 3/1/2019 @ 4:58 pm
@20. If you know how to hear to Trump, as NYers have learned from decades of ear-weary pressers, what the world saw was a tired old bullsh-tter w/his time-zoned bio-clock way screwed up, shoveling another rambling load of fertilizer. The man could have tucked in a line or two about compliments from Elvis when aliens landed a saucer of cream on the 13th green at Mar-A-Lago for a deal on building the Trump Tower/Venus and the crowd would have blinked– and listened on. He jetted out of Hanoi so fast, the doocy he pinched off at the hotel was still warm.
DCSCA (797bc0) — 3/1/2019 @ 5:13 pm
Just saying. In case anybody wanted to git mo into what happened to Warmbier.
nk (9651fb) — 3/1/2019 @ 5:16 pm
News at 11! Trump is liable to say anything at any time. That was an unforced error, there’s no defending it, Warmbier erred in going there in the first place, but certainly didn’t deserve the treatment he received. Shame on Trump and may Kim and his underlings one day reap the whirlwind.
Colonel Haiku (903a0b) — 3/1/2019 @ 5:17 pm
@25. ^ Oops- one ‘to’ too many.
DCSCA (797bc0) — 3/1/2019 @ 5:20 pm
A single life, tragic, compared to Nixon’s embrace of mao, who was possibly the single most most blood soaked tyrant outside of genfhis Khan, or how his embrace made us responsible for the Khmer rouge
Narciso (890a04) — 3/1/2019 @ 5:21 pm
@29. The Big Dick had a plan; The Donald had jet lag.

Cream puffs and Trump don’t travel well.
DCSCA (797bc0) — 3/1/2019 @ 5:26 pm
No, no, narciso! You’re flubbing your lines. What you need to say is:
mr. trump the president always says the right thing and that’s why i love him so much
nk (9651fb) — 3/1/2019 @ 5:27 pm
@ Kevin M,

Trump has gone the extra mile. NO ONE can say that he did not try and try past the point of reasonableness. Now, he’s done. At least I pray he is done.

Where does it say that going the extra mile requires the President of the United States must publicly announce that he takes a murderous dictator at his word? Wouldn’t a wiser man, a man who understands negotiations with thugs, simply keep his own counsel or simply give a no comment answer? But to not only say that “this is what Kim Jong Un said” and then affirm what the thug said seems far more than just a negotiating ploy/tactic. Where exactly is the line between obsequiousness, or foolish belief that what he says is true?
Dana (023079) — 3/1/2019 @ 5:27 pm
Also, how has Trump’s affinity (and respect) of murderous thugs benefited the U.S.?
Dana (023079) — 3/1/2019 @ 5:29 pm
Here’s Trump on Hannity’s show last night talking about Kim Jong Un:

“[H]e is a real personality, he is very smart, he is sharp as you can be, he is a real leader. He is pretty mercurial.”

Further,

“It’s a much tougher deal to make, maybe it won’t get made, that’s the deal we should have,” Trump said. “The relationship is very good. He likes me, I like him. Some people say ‘you should not like him.’ I say, ‘Why shouldn’t I like him?’ I like him. Get along great. We will see what happens.”
Dana (023079) — 3/1/2019 @ 5:34 pm
For once, I think Trump’s statement is defensible.

Notice, first, that Trump was focusing on Warmbier’s death. He doesn’t say Kim knew nothing of the arrest or torture, only that Kim didn’t know how bad the torture was in this instance. Kim told him that Kim has wanted him to live, not die, and that the degree of severe treatment was not Kim’s intention. And that may have been true. As Trump pointed out, a dead hostage has no value (except in Hamas-Israel deals).

Whether or not Kim really knew the full details, I suspect that whichever members of the security forces who were directly involved in torturing Warmbier are no longer members of the security forces, and if still members of the living, are now recipients of the sort of treatment they used to give.
Kishnevi (121377) — 3/1/2019 @ 5:37 pm
@32. He was in ‘Ron Burgundy’ mode, Dana. If he’d been holding a jar of Adolph’s Meat Tenderizer he’d have read the label and credited Hitler for a really great seasoning.

That’s why Pompeo was there as a crutch.
DCSCA (797bc0) — 3/1/2019 @ 5:37 pm
. Where exactly is the line between obsequiousness, or foolish belief that what he says is true?

Perhaps Trump realizes that Kim, like Trump himself, is devoted to the art of lying to the public.
Kishnevi (121377) — 3/1/2019 @ 5:41 pm
RIP Katherine Helmond

‘Brazil’liant actress; ‘Soap’ bubbler.
DCSCA (797bc0) — 3/1/2019 @ 5:42 pm
“Also, how has Trump’s affinity (and respect) of murderous thugs benefited the U.S.?”
Dana (023079) — 3/1/2019 @ 5:29 pm

Let’s ignore the unsupported premise and get right to the conclusion.
Munroe (fdb2e8) — 3/1/2019 @ 5:42 pm
I’m the only one who comes from a totalitarian country, so point of personal privilege, mist likely the bloody interlocutor who engineered the cheonan but has been the go between the us and nk for seven year now was probably directly responsible
Narciso (d2ee7f) — 3/1/2019 @ 5:43 pm
Munroe @ 39,

Here is Trump saying he has great respect for Kim Jong Un.

Here is Trump saying he respects Putin.

Here is a compilation of Trump’s favorable comments and admiration of various thug leaders.
Dana (023079) — 3/1/2019 @ 5:58 pm
Putin a totalitarian, more in the vein of a typical central American potentate, like in the Honduran salvadoran war of 1969.
Narciso (d2ee7f) — 3/1/2019 @ 6:05 pm
@34. That was just after Mr.-Potato-Head-Hannity helped Kim by injected himself into the presser– and on the world stage– equating Trump walking on NorKo’s to Reagan walking on the Gorby.

Just an incredibly ignorant and stupid cast of characters… who know their audience so well.
DCSCA (797bc0) — 3/1/2019 @ 6:08 pm
Whether he needs a passport or not, Congress should pass legislation restricting Trump from overseas travel if only for his own good– and ours.
DCSCA (797bc0) — 3/1/2019 @ 6:26 pm
You wanted the Soviets to win, disco, or worse didnt care, so stop putting on airs.
Narciso (d2ee7f) — 3/1/2019 @ 6:27 pm
45. Borscht.
DCSCA (797bc0) — 3/1/2019 @ 6:31 pm
“Here is a compilation of Trump’s favorable comments and admiration of various thug leaders.”
Dana (023079) — 3/1/2019 @ 5:58 pm

From The Atlantic, no less.

In a post-Trump administration, I look
Munroe (8138da) — 3/1/2019 @ 6:32 pm
I like Trump best when there’s an ocean or two and a couple or three continents between him and the White House.
nk (9651fb) — 3/1/2019 @ 6:34 pm
… forward to forging diplomatic relationships with only the purest rulers. All five of them.
Munroe (435864) — 3/1/2019 @ 6:35 pm
@48. Well, NASA and SpaceX are launching Demo-1 tonight. The crew test flight and has a dummy aboard and could use a ‘fellow traveller’ along side for ballast. Perfect opportunity for The Donald to ‘straighten up and fly right.’
DCSCA (797bc0) — 3/1/2019 @ 7:19 pm
43 – You come across as an expert in incredibly ignorant and stupid.
mg (8cbc69) — 3/1/2019 @ 7:39 pm
@51. Personal attack.

In other words, you have no way to defend his ignorance, stupidity and that of those who blindly follow him.
DCSCA (797bc0) — 3/1/2019 @ 7:44 pm
I’m pretty ok with Trump trying something different with N.K. I thought it was pretty foolhardy, but I’m willing to grant any president some leeway in taking a different tack. Sure, it was a complete failure, but sometimes things don’t work out.

I really enjoy imagining Hannity et al. treating an identical Obama performance the same way.
Nathan (5efffe) — 3/1/2019 @ 7:58 pm
Your the expert. Prick.
mg (8cbc69) — 3/1/2019 @ 7:59 pm
52. I attribute it to indifference. They’re not ignorant or stupid. And they follow him with eyes-wide-open. It’s just that they don’t care. And you’re not going to make them care by insulting them.
Gryph (08c844) — 3/1/2019 @ 7:59 pm
52… you are talking about the POTUS. What you’ve written would be objectionable whoever the president is. Don’t be consistently churlish.
Colonel Haiku (2601c0) — 3/1/2019 @ 8:01 pm
DCSCA (797bc0) — 3/1/2019 @ 7:19 pm
Reporter: Mr. President, when will we send a man to the moon?
JFK: Whenever Senator Goldwater says he’ll go!
felipe (023cc9) — 3/1/2019 @ 8:05 pm
@53. Personal attack again. And still no defense.
DCSCA (797bc0) — 3/1/2019 @ 8:13 pm
That’s really clever, any of you were barred from seeing a parent for a dozen years, because there was a dictator who prevented it, or had a relative drown in the straits trying to make the crossing. Then it’s all too abstract for you.
Narciso (d2ee7f) — 3/1/2019 @ 8:16 pm
@34. Dana, Kim knows the difference between a rocket and a missile.

Trump doesn’t.
DCSCA (797bc0) — 3/1/2019 @ 8:16 pm
Kim Jong Un makes Castro look like George Washington, narciso. And Trump is in love with him.
nk (9651fb) — 3/1/2019 @ 8:19 pm
@54. No. They are ignorant and stupid. And it’s blissfully entertaining, as long as it stops at the waters edge. They’ve been shown repeatedly that 1+1=2, not 11. And they can only recognize criticism as an insult if they know it validates they’ve been snookered.
DCSCA (797bc0) — 3/1/2019 @ 8:24 pm
DCSCA- your one of them ambulance chasing frauds, huh?
mg (8cbc69) — 3/1/2019 @ 8:26 pm
@60. And Trump makes Dubya sound and look like Einstein…the pooch, not the scientist– and that’s still a yuuuuuge step up. 😉
DCSCA (797bc0) — 3/1/2019 @ 8:26 pm
You tell me the right way to solve the north Korean problem that makes a crushing onslaught or at least a mid range tactical nuclear exchange impossible.
Narciso (d2ee7f) — 3/1/2019 @ 8:37 pm
And then there’s this sweet memory…

Muammar Gaddafi’s Tent Finds Home On Donald Trump’s estate

“Muammar Gaddafi pitched his tent on an estate belonging to Donald Trump in suburban New York yesterday, according to reports. The Libyan leader is scheduled to attend the UN general assembly this week. He had been struggling to find a plot to accommodate the large Bedouin tent he takes with him when travelling abroad.

Workers were seen yesterday erecting a tent and satellites in the glamorous neighbourhood of Bedford on an estate owned by Trump. Local officials tried to stop them, saying it was illegal to build a temporary residence without a permit. An ABC News helicopter filmed a large tent on the 113-acre Seven Springs estate, with rugs and patterned wall hangings. Green and yellow fabric lined the walls in a pattern dotted with images of small brown camels, according to a local newspaper website image. Last night a state department official told AP the tent might be used for entertaining by Gadaffi, but he would not be sleeping there.

Doors all over New York have been slammed in the colonel’s face, but Trump says he has rented part of a large property in Westchester county to Middle Eastern tenants who may be associated with Gadaffi.

Gadaffi last month wanted to erect a tent in New Jersey, where the Libyan embassy owns property, but the US government said he could not. A request to set up tent in Central Park was also turned down.

Gadaffi arrived in New York yesterday, It is likely he will face protests over Scotland’s recent release of Libyan Abdelbaset al-Megrahi, convicted of the 1988 bombing of Pan Am Flight 103 which killed 270.”

source – https://www.theguardian.com/world/2009/sep/23/muammar-gaddafi-tent-trump-estate
DCSCA (797bc0) — 3/1/2019 @ 8:42 pm
@64. There is no NorKo nuke problem; our Captain tweeted so; they are no longer a nuclear threat.

He never steamed over his own tow line, either.

“Defective equipment, no more, no less!’ – Philip Francis Queeg [Humphrey Bogart] ‘The Caine Mutiny’ 1954
DCSCA (797bc0) — 3/1/2019 @ 8:50 pm
And yet Qaddafi is relatively near beer, yes we found a way to whitewash pan am 103, after that it’s all gravy.
Narciso (d2ee7f) — 3/1/2019 @ 8:59 pm
@67. If Trump ran Hertz, he’d have rented Castro a convertible.
DCSCA (797bc0) — 3/1/2019 @ 9:02 pm
66… another Caine Mutiny analogy… shocka!
Colonel Haiku (2601c0) — 3/1/2019 @ 9:57 pm
Dana–

#32: We have the president we have, not the one we might want. I can’t hold Trump to making subtly nuanced comments any more than I could hold Reagan to a grasp of the federal budget or Bill Clinton to keeping it zipped.

So, I look at what he does in the broad sense. Harping on details with Trump is just a BORING game of gotcha.
Kevin M (21ca15) — 3/1/2019 @ 10:44 pm
#34: I say, ‘Why shouldn’t I like him?’ I like him. Get along great. We will see what happens.”

Dana, again, this is Trump. He is trying to humor a crazy man into giving up these nukes (that 3 previous presidents (four if you count Jimmy) let him build and keep). Why? Because he does not want to see Seoul get hit with one of them, and he doesn’t want to give the order to kill millions of people.

And he can’t just let it slide; there’s a whole raft of countries wondering why they should play by the rules when Kim and the Mullahs don’t.
Kevin M (21ca15) — 3/1/2019 @ 10:49 pm
Reagan walking on the Gorby.

Every last MSM talking head called Reykjavik a failure, when in fact the Cold War was decided that day.
Kevin M (21ca15) — 3/1/2019 @ 10:51 pm
And yet, if it comes to military action against North Korea, MSNBC will be castigating Trump for not negotiating.
Kevin M (21ca15) — 3/1/2019 @ 10:55 pm
‘Humor a crazy man…’

ROFLMAOPIP. Unlike our Captain, that is honestly rich.
DCSCA (797bc0) — 3/1/2019 @ 10:58 pm
OT- Congratulations to NASA and SpaceX on the successful launch of Demo-1, placing the test crew Dragon into orbit and safely landing/recovering the Falcon 9 first stage on the landing barge out at sea.

This is the right-kind-of-stuff Arthur C. Clarke predicted would evolve in writings back in 1969.

Outstanding job, kids. Well done.
DCSCA (797bc0) — 3/2/2019 @ 12:12 am
While I think the method that Trump has chosen to deal with Kim is not ideal, as a practical matter, I don’t think anyone else would’ve necessarily gotten different results (for better or worse). It would be nice if he could manage to get the optics right just once, though.
Nic (896fdf) — 3/2/2019 @ 12:21 am
Optics? Trump went on twitter and said “There is no longer a Nuclear Threat from North Korea.” That’s not true. Something that is not true is called a lie. The President lying almost daily on twitter is a an actual problem, not a perceived problem. Not optics.
JRH (fe281f) — 3/2/2019 @ 3:46 am
75. I thought we had already done that in 1962.
nk (dbc370) — 3/2/2019 @ 4:36 am
So, I look at what he does in the broad sense. Harping on details with Trump is just a BORING game of gotcha.

If your point is that we are stuck wuth Trump, I agree but caring about how Trump conducts foreign policy with Kim is not a detail. Kim has nukes and says he will use them. You may be willing to trust Trump as he plays Monopoly with the world but there is nothing in his past or judgment that suggests to me he has the intelligence or ability to win.
DRJ (15874d) — 3/2/2019 @ 5:03 am
Yes, he should just continue the successful policies of his predecessors.
Colonel Haiku (2601c0) — 3/2/2019 @ 5:38 am
All you tough social justice warriors and Trump haters talk big. But if you are trying to talk a mad man into giving up his nukes in exchange for a big old promise from the USA that they won’t do you like Hitlery and Oblamo did to Libya, you don’t start out by blaming the mad man for the murder of a US citizen who was stupid enough to get arrested in NoKo. Negotiating with Mad Men 101.
John Doe (849f6e) — 3/2/2019 @ 5:50 am
Trump has clearly decided that flattery is the way to gain Kim’s confidence, probably because Trump loves flattery so much. But Kim lives in a nation where the lives of every person depend on their ability to flatter Kim. Kim’s need for flattery is likely insatiable and I doubt Trump can satisfy it, so this becomes an exercise in inflating Kim’s demands/expectations. That is not a formula for success.

The world has seen nuclear proliferation but we have gone almost 75 years without using nuclear weapons. Sanctions and detente were part of the reason why. Does Trump strike you as more like Reagan who used oil to pressure the Soviet Union, or like JFK who relied on instinct and personality in handling the Cuban missile crisis?
DRJ (15874d) — 3/2/2019 @ 6:11 am
The policies were successful, Haiku. Proliferation was inevitable. The goal is to avoid anyone using nuclear weapons.
DRJ (15874d) — 3/2/2019 @ 6:12 am
There is no successful negotiating with Mad Men, just as there is no successfuo way to discuss with some commenters.
DRJ (15874d) — 3/2/2019 @ 6:15 am
The policies were successful? No, I don’t think they were.
Colonel Haiku (2601c0) — 3/2/2019 @ 6:40 am
Reagan backed a way from a bad deal, JFK had egg on his face from betrayal at playa giron and hence Khrushchev rolled him up at vienna, which led to Berlin and the bay of pigs, also moved in laos.
Narciso (d1923b) — 3/2/2019 @ 6:51 am
Of course the same people who botched the first operation handled Vietnam with the same characteristic deftness, sarc.
Narciso (d1923b) — 3/2/2019 @ 6:52 am
The NoKo’s have cheated or backed their way out of every nuke and missile deal to date, including a ’92 joint de-nuke agreement with South Korea, the ’94 Agreed Framework under Clinton, Bush’s 2005 Six-Party Joint Statement and 2007 deal and 0bama’s 2012 missile freeze. How is that characterized as “working”?
Colonel Haiku (2601c0) — 3/2/2019 @ 6:53 am
The goal ought to be ridding the Korean Peninsula of nukes.
Colonel Haiku (2601c0) — 3/2/2019 @ 6:54 am
And the same person who negotiated the framework worked the Iran deal.
Narciso (d1923b) — 3/2/2019 @ 6:56 am
As has been said, Iran and other bad actors are watching how this plays out. IMO, it can’t be said Trump has not made a good faith effort to deal with the problem.
Colonel Haiku (2601c0) — 3/2/2019 @ 7:00 am
R.I.P. Katherine Helmond

(forever Jessica Tate!)
Icy (d2927e) — 3/2/2019 @ 7:37 am
You may be willing to trust Trump as he plays Monopoly with the world but there is nothing in his past or judgment that suggests to me he has the intelligence or ability to win.
DRJ (15874d) — 3/2/2019 @ 5:03 am

I am not playing any gotcha games with anyone, but I can immediately think of one thing that “suggests to me he has the intelligence or ability to win.” He is the President. He also enjoys an advantage that few in history can claim; he is constantly underestimated.
felipe (023cc9) — 3/2/2019 @ 7:58 am
Rip:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/heavy.com/entertainment/2019/03/christian-bach-dead/amp/
Narciso (d1923b) — 3/2/2019 @ 8:01 am
Another gordian knot:

https://www.caracaschronicles.com/2019/03/02/a-tour-with-an-invoice/
Narciso (d1923b) — 3/2/2019 @ 8:13 am
Trump wasn’t “misinterpreted”, just like he wasn’t misinterpreted when he slavered all over Putin in Helsinki. He said a boneheaded thing and the Warmbier family and others appropriately called him on it.
Paul Montagu (eab766) — 3/2/2019 @ 8:16 am
So your governor is joining the clown shoe, montagu hes going to need extra large shoes to stick out.
Narciso (d1923b) — 3/2/2019 @ 8:20 am
Trump has clearly decided that flattery is the way to gain Kim’s confidence, probably because Trump loves flattery so much. But Kim lives in a nation where the lives of every person depend on their ability to flatter Kim. Kim’s need for flattery is likely insatiable and I doubt Trump can satisfy it, so this becomes an exercise in inflating Kim’s demands/expectations. That is not a formula for success.

I agree with you, it is not a formula for success – if the carrot of flattery alone is used. Trump walking out on Kim suggests that POTUS is transitioning to the stick now.

Flattery. But a President’s flattery is singularly different from what Kim gets at home; Trump’s flattery is not without real value and possibilities. Kim’s underlings can offer him no more than loyalty grounded in fear. Trump however, can offer Kim much, much more. It is tempting to say “Kim won” or “Kim got the better of Trump.” I doubt Kim thinks so. No one walks out on him at home.
felipe (023cc9) — 3/2/2019 @ 8:22 am
“Pedicaris alive or Raisuli dead.”
Look it up yourselves.
In fairness to Trump, it was Obama who let the North Koreans kill Warmbier.
nk (9651fb) — 3/2/2019 @ 8:25 am
Now noel field was not killed, but his circumstances were somewhat similar to warmbier, he spent a spell in Siberia and he didnt know why.
Narciso (d1923b) — 3/2/2019 @ 8:29 am
It didnt really matter which side you were on, sometimes
https://spartacus-educational.com/Noel_Field.htm
Narciso (d1923b) — 3/2/2019 @ 8:34 am
A day ending in y:
https://babalublog.com/2019/03/02/ignoring-the-misery-in-venezuela-and-celebrating-a-mass-murderer-the-un-human-rights-council-is-rotten-to-its-core/
Narciso (d1923b) — 3/2/2019 @ 8:40 am
So your governor is joining the clown shoe…

What, nothing about Eyman?
Paul Montagu (eab766) — 3/2/2019 @ 9:33 am
98… well said, felipe!
Colonel Haiku (2601c0) — 3/2/2019 @ 10:14 am
93. “Trump is president, ergo he is intelligent.” One does not necessarily follow from the other. I think the only absolute requirement to be a successful politician is rank narcissism.
Gryph (08c844) — 3/2/2019 @ 11:00 am
you may have five socialists on the windy city city council, did you crack a mirror?
narciso (d1f714) — 3/2/2019 @ 11:21 am
“Trump is president, ergo he is intelligent.”
You must be quoting yourself, because I certainly didn’t say that.
felipe (023cc9) — 3/2/2019 @ 12:21 pm
That particular instance of Strange New Respect was short lived (ny apologies to the Colonel):
http://mobile.twitter.com/EWErickson/status/1101916104711172097
urbanleftbehind (0984b7) — 3/2/2019 @ 12:28 pm
@78. Meh. Even in orbit, what goes around, comes around.

Actually, in a little remembered ‘epilogue’ quilled by Clarke to book from ’69 titled ‘First Men On The Moon’ by the 11 crew, he discusses and predicts the inevitable shifting of low-earth-orbit ops to private firms for commercial development freeing up NASA and other nations developing their own space agencies to press on with exploration w/beyond-earth-orbit ops. Half a century later, that’s essentially what’s happening.
DCSCA (797bc0) — 3/2/2019 @ 12:28 pm
@86. Nyet; Reagan couldn’t keep up when Gorby did some broken field running. But that’s 30 year water under the bridge- and given the character of our Putie Cat, he’d have figured a work around. The man holding some lousy hands has managed to bluff his way into winning several sweet pots.

Cool Hand Vlad.
DCSCA (797bc0) — 3/2/2019 @ 12:35 pm
107. I know you didn’t. What I meant, and what I am saying, is that knowing how to become or be president does not mean one is smart. We’ve had smart presidents and dumb presidents. And I simply believe there is more evidence that Trump tends more towards the latter.
Gryph (08c844) — 3/2/2019 @ 1:01 pm
there is nothing in his past or judgment that suggests to me he has the intelligence or ability to win.

You go to war with the President you have. Or maybe we wait for President Harris? Things CAN get worse. I am not sanguine about “MAD” here. Not only does it give the OK to proliferation, but it allows Kim to engage in nuclear blackmail which will only end the way all blackmail does. Waiting will just increase the danger.
Kevin M (21ca15) — 3/2/2019 @ 1:22 pm
The policies were successful, Haiku. Proliferation was inevitable.

The why did we offer so many carrots, and threaten so many sticks, to get all but a very few nations to sign on to the NNPT? Not only was proliferation not “inevitable”, it was STOPPED. Only India, Israel, Pakistan, and South Sudan refused to sign.

North Korea and Iran DID sign, and got the promised benefits. It was a blood oath and it needs to be enforced.
Kevin M (21ca15) — 3/2/2019 @ 1:26 pm
There is no successful negotiating with Mad Men, just as there is no successfuo way to discuss with some commenters.

But you have to try. Sometimes the horse will sing. If it doesn’t, you are no worse off for trying, and you can move more freely towards a military response.
Kevin M (21ca15) — 3/2/2019 @ 1:30 pm
And how many signatories are not now developing programs at various stages
Narciso (ef9447) — 3/2/2019 @ 2:05 pm
Nukes make for great bargaining chips but they’re a costly buy into the game and a PITA to monitor and maintain. If you wanna play at that table w/t big boys and girls, you have to be prepared to commit for the long haul. Kim is in. So ‘deal’ the cards.
DCSCA (797bc0) — 3/2/2019 @ 2:21 pm
If only there was a Zell Miller or a Heath Shuler around to pounce on this: http://abc7chicago.com/trump-mimics-southern-accent-at-cpac-to-ridicule-his-former-ag/5164359/?fbclid=IwAR2aXOBXLCW42_HJuMq0Lt486a_wnTmE1KJSnhI7i9wnkhEDp6cN2r6tJNU
urbanleftbehind (c6bb2e) — 3/2/2019 @ 2:54 pm
Maybe hes too optimistic
https://legalinsurrection.com/2019/03/south-koreas-moon-jae-in-will-work-toward-completing-u-s-noko-deal/
Narciso (ef9447) — 3/2/2019 @ 4:24 pm
urbanleftbehind @177

This is all the body of the article says re the clickbait headline:

He affected a mock southern accent to ridicule his former attorney general Jeff Sessions to some howls of delight from the crowd.

Those people are not on Trump’s side and they’re not on our side either. Democrat party organs.
nk (dbc370) — 3/2/2019 @ 5:05 pm
*urbanleftbehind @117*
nk (dbc370) — 3/2/2019 @ 5:06 pm
Re the next round of vapours:

https://www.concordia.net/community/samantha-vinograd/
Narciso (b9586d) — 3/2/2019 @ 5:27 pm
Never Trumper Star Adam PO Schiff is going to call Felix Sater to testify before congress about a Trump hotel that was never built in Russia. He goes way back with the Clinton and Mueller crime families soI’ll bet this is the one that nails the bad orange man.
mg (8cbc69) — 3/2/2019 @ 5:32 pm
well that raises a whole other set of questions,

https://dailycaller.com/2019/03/02/felix-sater-loretta-lynch-secret-docket/
narciso (d1f714) — 3/2/2019 @ 6:10 pm
@119. Smack open a Trump piñata and two hours of CPAC spills out.
DCSCA (797bc0) — 3/2/2019 @ 6:17 pm
“Pedicaris alive or Raisuli dead.”
Look it up yourselves.
In fairness to Trump, it was Obama who let the North Koreans kill Warmbier.
nk (9651fb) — 3/2/2019 @ 8:25 am

Thank you
Angelo (39c90e) — 3/2/2019 @ 7:10 pm
Sater is more of a criminal than Cohen. Adam eyeball sure can pick a back up witness.
mg (8cbc69) — 3/2/2019 @ 7:21 pm
Perdicaris was a citizen but he seems to have been In the phantom zone that field found himself

https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news/the-critical-yet-overlooked-part-of-trumps-trip-to-vietnam-was-vietnam
Narciso (bcb83f) — 3/2/2019 @ 8:40 pm
‘He [Trump] takes him [Kim] at his word but doesn’t accept it as reality.’ – Walrus Gumbo

Right. Okay, then.

BTW, why is your moustashe brown?
DCSCA (797bc0) — 3/3/2019 @ 5:43 pm
35. Kishnevi (121377) — 3/1/2019 @ 5:37 pm

35.For once, I think Trump’s statement is defensible.

Its defensible; it sounds almost irrefutable that it would not have been in his interest to kill Otto Wambier – but that is a fallacy.

Kim only decided later he had to release Otto Wambier, and then he couldn’t let him tell a tale.
Sammy Finkelman (102c75) — 3/4/2019 @ 12:33 pm
Un may not have known exactly what was going on with Warmbier, but he is responsible for running an iron fisted society filled with vicious mini me tyrants.
The worst people to run afoul of in societies like NK and Burma are lower level military officers and low level officers in internal security. If they want to climb the ranks, and they do, they will have been so indoctrinated in the hatred and suspicion of westerners that the beatings would seem pre-sanctioned.

When I was in Burma up north of Putao, we were walking up into the ethnic Tibetan region.
The Burmese military maintains a crude series of outposts with forts made from sharpened stakes in the region where every westerner must check in or else you’d be suspected of being a “western stooge” and arrested as a spy. Spies get their confessions beat out of them. So we’d stay overnight, buy a few chickens for the dinner we were invited to host, give the Lt. a pack of Marlboros, a couple whiskey singles as a parting gift. No photos of the fort, no souvenirs.

We were told that if suspected spies showed up, there would be reprisals down through all the villages they’d passed through, so not only would I be responsible for my own ass kicking, I’d have gotten others hurt too
steveg (a9dcab) — 3/4/2019 @ 1:11 pm
Donald Trump:

Remember, I got Otto out along with three others.

Donald Trump probably caused the death of Otto Warmbier!

Kim Jong Un feklt he had to release Otto Warmbier because he needed it as a conditioon of meeting Donald Trump, and he was afraid of Donald Trump after Trump had tweeted:

https://twitter.com/realdonaldtrump/status/948355557022420992?lang=en

Donald J. Trump‏Verified account @realDonaldTrump

North Korean Leader Kim Jong Un just stated that the “Nuclear Button is on his desk at all times.” Will someone from his depleted and food starved regime please inform him that I too have a Nuclear Button, but it is a much bigger & more powerful one than his, and my Button works!

4:49 PM – 2 Jan 2018

My button works!

Meaning maybe his “button” doesn’t work; i.e. the U.S. has sabotaged something, or could destroy missile in flight, and Donald Trump has a loose lip. Trump had been trying to alert Kim that if he tried to use nuclear weapons, he would suffer destruction – he would lose. And herer he was telling him that the United States was not afraid of what he might try. Kim Jong Un almost instantly reversed course, and stopped all his threats. He had to negotiate – he had to stall Donald Trump.

And to do this he has to release Otto Warmbier.

Problem: Otto Warmbier had undergone too much torture; seen too many other people suffer; or had contact with some long term secret political prisoners, whose names he could reveal, maybe Japanse it doesn’t want to admit it is still holding or North Koreans who could have told him tales – maybe even about the nuclear program, or whatever they felt they needed to keep highly secret – for the North Korean state to feel that they could release him. (I mean the way they felt they felkt they couldn’t, or were afraid to. It is not like this is actually necessary or would make a difference, except for fools, and there are very few real fools who deal with North Korea.)

Kim’s solution: Release him, alive, but in such a way that he will never regain consciousness.

(North Korea probably didn’t expect the Warmbier family to turn off life support, so they thought they were safe from an accusation of having killed him.)

That’s what probably happened.

He was originally tortured because Kim just had to have a show trial where he confessed – it was not enough to give him along sentence over his protestations of innocence or in total secrecy. At that time it was expected he’d be kept locked up for a very very long time. So they didn’t worry about who or waht he would be exposed to, or what would happen if he was released.
Sammy Finkelman (102c75) — 3/4/2019 @ 1:14 pm
Here is Trump saying he respects Putin.

Just words. When dealing with a foe, it never makes sense to belittle them (Life 101). What matters is President Trump’s actions, for example the commitment he recently got from the EU to purchase American LNG (liquid natural gas). If that’s not a boot to Putin’s throat, I don’t know what is. (Just ask anyone from the oil patch.)

I suppose Vladdy can bask in the chimera of Trump’s approbation. But he knows – unlike those who continually underestimate Le Grande Orange – that Trump’s his daddy.
Lenny (324633) — 3/4/2019 @ 10:38 pm
Just more vapours:

https://twitter.com/davereaboi/status/1102921510795313155
Narciso (369281) — 3/5/2019 @ 5:30 am
You were missing this as accompaniment for your post above. And what to make of Mith Lindthay, I’ll never (,thankfully) know.
urbanleftbehind (c6bb2e) — 3/5/2019 @ 5:38 am
They’re smoking something over there:

https://madison.com/wsj/news/local/govt-and-politics/gop-leaders-raise-alarm-over-tony-evers-cabinet-pick-s/article_c59ae5ec-32eb-5053-a1c1-336c170031ec.html?utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter&utm_campaign=user-share
Narciso (369281) — 3/5/2019 @ 7:05 am

3/1/2019

Clean Hands: President Trump Gives Kim Jong Un A Pass In The Death Of Otto Warmbier

136 Responses to “Clean Hands: President Trump Gives Kim Jong Un A Pass In The Death Of Otto Warmbier”

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