Patterico's Pontifications

1/30/2019

Virginia: Bill Allowing Abortions Up Until Birth Is Defeated

Filed under: General — Dana @ 3:37 pm



[guest post by Dana]

Last week I wrote about New York’s ghoulish celebration at the passage of the Reproductive Health Act which removed any restrictions for abortion to the point of birth. It’s no surprise that other states are now following suit.

Kathy Tran (D), a lawmaker in the Virginia House of Delegates, introduced a bill (House Bill 2491) also allowing women to get an abortion up until birth:

A new bill proposed in the Virginia legislature would loosen restrictions on abortions during the third trimester of pregnancy, and allow abortions during the second trimester to take place outside hospitals.

Under current Virginia law, abortions during the third trimester require a determination by a doctor and two consulting physicians that continuing the pregnancy would likely result in the woman’s death or “substantially and irremediably” impair her mental or physical health.

The bill, proposed in the Virginia House of Delegates by Democrat Kathy Tran, would require only one doctor to make the determination that the pregnancy threatens the woman’s life or health. The proposed legislation would also eliminate the requirement that abortions during the second trimester be performed in a state-licensed hospital.

Here is video of Tran being questioned about the bill by Republican Todd Gilbert:

Tran explicitly – and appallingly – admits that her bill would allow a woman to have an abortion while she is in labor, and at the point of birth. Here is part of the exchange with Gilbert:

Tran: So, the suggestion that we’ve made in the bill is to say it’s in the 3rd trimester, you know, with the certification of the physician.

Gilbert: So how late in the 3rd trimester would you be able to do that?

Tran: You know it’s very unfortunate that our physician witnesses were not able to attend today to speak specifically…

Gilbert: No I’m talking about your bill. How late in the 3rd trimester could a physician perform an abortion if he indicated it would impair the mental health of the woman.

Tran: Or physical health.

Gilbert: Okay, I’m talking about the mental health.

Tran: Through the 3rd trimester. The 3rd trimester goes all the way up to 40 weeks.

Gilbert: Okay, but to the end of the 3rd trimester.

Tran: Yup, I don’t think we have a limit in the bill.

Gilbert: So, um, where it’s obvious that a woman is about to give birth. She has physical signs that she is about to give birth. Would that still be a point at which she could request an abortion if she was so-certified…she’s dilating.

Tran: Mr. Chairman, that would be a, you know, a decision that the doctor, the physician and the woman would make at that point.

Gilbert: I understand that. I’m asking if your bill allows that.

Tran: My bill would allow that, yes.

It gets worse, much worse. In response to the push back from the pro-life community at this monstrosity, Governor Northam, who supports the bill, weighed in during a radio interview, and went even further than Tran did when discussing her bill as he brought up a post-birth abortion scenario where the baby is born alive:

Northam: “There are, you know, when we talk about third trimester abortions, these are done with the consent of, obviously, the mother, with the consent of the physicians – more than one physician, by the way – and it’s done in cases where there may be severe deformities, there may be a fetus that’s non-viable.

“In this particular example, if a mother is in labor, I can tell you exactly what would happen,” Northam said. “The infant would be delivered. The infant would be kept comfortable. The infant would be resuscitated if that’s what the mother and the family desired, and then a discussion would ensue between the physicians and the mother.”

“We want the government not to be involved in these types of decisions,” Northam said. “We want the decision to be made by the mothers and their providers, and this is why, Julie, that legislators, most of whom are men, by the way, shouldn’t be telling a woman what she should and shouldn’t be doing with her body.”

“There may be” is not an absolute, only-if situation. If one doctor determines the mother’s “mental health” is in question or would be adversely impacted by delivering her baby, she could have a late-term abortion right then and there. Even as she is dilating. And does the governor believe that “severe deformities” naturally preclude an individual from leading a productive and fulfilled life? Further, if a baby is born alive and survived the birth and is no longer within the mother’s body, does he or she not have the right to live?

What I take from Gov. Northam’s “reassurances” of a born-alive baby’s laughably humane treatment, is that we’re now supposed to feel good about some sliver of humanity after a barbaric act of murder has taken place. But being left alone to die a slow and painful death reassures no one. The governor, who is also, unbelievably, a pediatric neurologist, evidences his own lack of humanity with these words.

For Godsake, this isn’t hard: a baby born alive is a human being, replete with a soul, a spirit, full humanity and personhood. As I said last week: the goal has always been to normalize this horrific standard medical care, dehumanize its innocent victims by denying their undeniable humanity, and remove any remnant of a long-held moral respect for the sanctity of life from our culture. Safe, legal and rare was just a cheap gimmick to make the pro-abortionists feel righteous about their death march and convince others that there would always be limits to abortion. Clearly, evil has been unleashed, and the obvious trend does not bode well for us as a nation if we are to be judged by how our most vulnerable members are treated.

Gov. Northam’s spokewoman sought to explain the governor’s comments:

Ofirah Yheskel, a spokeswoman for Northam, said “No woman seeks a third trimester abortion except in the case of tragic or difficult circumstances, such as a nonviable pregnancy or in the event of severe fetal abnormalities, and the governor’s comments were limited to the actions physicians would take in the event that a woman in those circumstances went into labor.”

“Attempts to extrapolate these comments otherwise is in bad faith and underscores exactly why the governor believes physicians and women, not legislators, should make these difficult and deeply personal medical decisions,” she said.

John Sexton pushes back:

To be clear, Gov. Northam may have been talking about a non-viable baby as his spokeswoman claims. In fact, that was my initial take on his comments and I said so on Twitter. However, it’s not clear that the bill itself makes any such distinction. And if the bill doesn’t make that distinction then it doesn’t actually matter if Gov. Northam introduced it in his answer (probably as a way to sidestep the issue). Because if what Northam describes were to happen to a viable baby, it would be infanticide. And you don’t have to be a conservative to find that objectionable.

And while the Washington Post necessarily focused its attention on anything but what takes place in the womb during a third trimester abortion with their dramatic accusatory lede: “Va. Gov. Northam faces fierce conservative backlash over late term abortion bill,” I think if there is anything worth getting fierce and loud about, it’s legalized abortion to the point of birth.

Update: Thankfully, this bill was defeated by the Republican majority.

(Cross-posted at The Jury Talks Back.)

–Dana

75 Responses to “Virginia: Bill Allowing Abortions Up Until Birth Is Defeated”

  1. It’s some serious kind of f***ed-up that allows an individual to rationalize the killing of a born-alive infant.

    Dana (023079)

  2. 1. Lighten up, Dana. You know Kermit Gosnell was just ahead of his time.

    Gryph (08c844)

  3. Good news for a change, sanity and morality for the win.

    Minor edit suggested for the following: “that her bill would allow for a woman could to have an abortion while she is in labor…”

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  4. RIP James Ingram, 66…

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  5. The guy probably provided the soundtrack to a not insignificant number of babymaking sessions…

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  6. “We want the government not to be involved in these types of decisions,” Northam said.

    he’s got this part right at least

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  7. They’ll keep trying. Evolving standards of decency. (Yes, that is really what they call it. Google it.)

    nk (dbc370)

  8. aww that’s that yah mo b there guy

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  9. Northam probably does not want the government to be involved when he travels to Thailand either, I imagine.

    nk (dbc370)

  10. Hedging their bets that R v. W is overturned by a majority of conservative judges.

    Dana (023079)

  11. smoovness

    that is all the smoovness

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  12. Or, should it go the other way, “evolving standards of decency”, as determined by some number of states that allow third-trimester abortion on demand (in Roper v. Simmons it only took seven I think), would expand third-trimester abortion on demand to every state.

    nk (dbc370)

  13. “shouldn’t be telling a woman what she should and shouldn’t be doing with her body”

    This facile and appallingly dishonest argument always infuriates me.

    If the woman’s body were the only one involved, there would be no controversy.

    The whole point is that there is another living, and extremely vulnerable, human being’s body involved.

    Let’s at least argue about what is actually happening, not some made-up version which conveniently ignores the whole nexus of the problem.

    Dave (1bb933)

  14. the government doesn’t have any moral authority on these matters Mr. Dave

    it’s corrupt and dirty

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  15. Senator Sasse Tells Virginia Governor To ‘Get The Hell Out Of Public Office’ Over Abortion Remarks

    isn’t sasse the creamcheese twink what supported abortion-lovin’ Doug in Alabama?

    he’s kind of all over the place on this issue

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  16. I agree with Dana about hedging their bets

    mg (8cbc69)

  17. So many of the horrendous things done and actions taken in the past… people will ask, after the fact, how did people of good faith allow that to happen? Allowing/facilitating this would be counted among those truly evil deeds.

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  18. if you don’t stand for freedom you stand to fall for anything even if you sit down but what if they ban chairs Mr. Colonel

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  19. It goes back to 1 Romans coronello

    Narciso (3918c0)

  20. We are a nation of no conviction led by a group of uni-party drunks.

    mg (8cbc69)

  21. I bet the pharmacies around D.C. make a killing peddling pills to our leaders, which ends up in some foggy thinking.

    mg (8cbc69)

  22. This is not only a position taken by crazy activist groups, in this case, it’s the governor of Virginia. And the sickness may be spread.

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  23. How does this affect a criminal conviction of murdering a pregnant woman and the baby she’s carrying?

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  24. Bullwort is its usual one-holer wipe-paper…

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  25. I’m afraid to ask coronello, even most of western Europe isn’t this extreme,

    Narciso (3918c0)

  26. It should not. Not unless the woman has signed a consent and the killings were done by a doctor and, even then, that might not be a defense as Kermit Gosnell found out. But you never know.

    nk (dbc370)

  27. This facile and appallingly dishonest argument always infuriates me.

    If the woman’s body were the only one involved, there would be no controversy.

    The whole point is that there is another living, and extremely vulnerable, human being’s body involved.

    Let’s at least argue about what is actually happening, not some made-up version which conveniently ignores the whole nexus of the problem.

    Dave (1bb933) — 1/30/2019 @ 4:33 pm

    and

    How does this affect a criminal conviction of murdering a pregnant woman and the baby she’s carrying?

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0) — 1/30/2019 @ 5:38 pm

    The death culture must never acknowledge that what is in the womb is indeed a human being. By doing so, they would the have to admit to murder. The New York bill (RHA) decriminalized abortion, moving it from the state’s criminal code to the public-health code. Before Gov. Cuomo signed the bill, if a pregnant woman was assaulted and her baby killed as a result, New York recognized that baby’s death as a homicide. There were legal consequences that aligned with already on the books state murder laws. Now, however, this new law specifically rewrote New York’s penal code to remove them. Here is the re-write of the NY Penal Code (bolded removed):

    “Homicide means conduct which causes the death of a person [or an unborn child with which a female has been pregnant for more than twenty-four weeks] under circumstances constituting murder, manslaughter in the first degree, manslaughter in the second degree, or criminally negligent homicide [, abortion in the first degree or self-abortion in the first degree].”

    Further, this also explains why the ACLU is determined to not recognize a baby in the womb as a person, nor offer it any protections:

    While acknowledging the deep emotions that fetuses may evoke for millions of Americans, the ACLU opposes the creation of theories of “fetal rights.” Permitting legal actions on behalf of stillborn fetuses or enacting laws to protect fetuses opens a Pandora’s box in terms of how the law treats pregnancy and childbirth. However great our compassion and concern for bereaved prospective parents, we must examine such lawsuits and legislation with a critical eye. If they pose a real threat to reproductive rights, as they often do, then we must intervene and oppose them.

    The personhood, humanity and intrinsic value of these tiny individuals is continually being erased with great intention and purpose.

    Dana (023079)

  28. There is a seriously illness out there that is encouraging those on the extreme left to consider dehumanizing others to be a virtue. This is just one more example in that path to insanity.

    NJRob (4604cc)

  29. Gov. Northam is feeling the heat, yet still remains without any self-awareness:

    I have devoted my life to caring for children and any insinuation otherwise is shameful and disgusting.

    Dana (023079)

  30. i don’t believe he’s actually devoted his life to caring for children

    i think his life would look very different if that were the case

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  31. So there was ultimately a limit of how deprwv3d they can be?

    Narciso (3918c0)

  32. He’s a regular Mary Poppins.

    nk (dbc370)

  33. About Gov. Northam’s tweet, he has no business claiming anyone is insinuating anything. We all read what he very clearly said: he supports abortion to the point of birth also well as the mother and her doctor deciding the fate of a baby born alive after an abortion. On what planet is that caring for a child?

    Dana (023079)

  34. Which reminds me, Gov. Northam also said:

    The infant would be resuscitated if that’s what the mother and the family desired.

    By acknowledging that the baby has the capability to live, he affirms that it is indeed murder if they opt not to resuscitate them.

    Dana (023079)

  35. This is no different than Obama’s response to Illinois’s Born Alive Act.

    He just got better press to protect him.

    NJRob (4604cc)

  36. By acknowledging that the baby has the capability to live, he affirms that it is indeed murder if they opt not to resuscitate them.

    That might be taking it too far. Using that logic, any medical staff that obey a patient’s DNR order or a living will that expresses the wish to avoid “heroic measures” are committing murder.

    I think Northam’s original statement was an attempt to obfuscate by pretending only nonviable babies were being talked about. But if it really were just nonviable babies, his statement would make sense…leave it to the family and their doctors to decide how to care for the baby.

    FTR, I don’t see any reason to change Virginia’s existing law.

    Kishnevi (2f2ab7)

  37. 40. The reason that executing a DNR order isn’t murder is that it’s a decision the patient for himself, a decision that babies aren’t capable of making for themselves. Also, pregnancy isn’t a disease and children aren’t tumors that need excising.

    And as I have said before ad infinitum, the definition of “viability” changes with available medical technology and makes a poor legal definition viz a vis the legality of abortion.

    Gryph (08c844)

  38. 37. Utilitarianism. That what it’s all about. Make no mistake. It should chill any decent human being to the bone.

    Gryph (08c844)

  39. “We want the government not to be involved in these types of decisions,” Northam said. “We want the decision to be made by the mothers and their providers, and this is why, Julie, that legislators, most of whom are men, by the way, shouldn’t be telling a woman what she should and shouldn’t be doing with her body.”

    Say this for Northam: he’s got the talking points absolutely down pat. The Planned Parenthood folks couldn’t have done any better.

    JVW (54fd0b)

  40. Njrob is right to remind us, unlike the bulwarks erroneous conclusion Obama was well outside the overton window then:

    Narciso (3918c0)

  41. I think abortion should be broadly legal. I also think that I will see it broadly banned (or so heavily regulated as to be effectively banned) in my lifetime, and I think that political blunders like this bill are an excellent indication as to why.

    The Pro-Abortion forces simply cannot leave their opponents any sop to their consciences. They are so determined to never give any ground, ever, under any circumstances, that they create the circumstances under which they will lose.

    They could have shut down Kermit Gosnell’s abattoir. They knew about it. Rather than close down an abortion clinic that was a caricature of the ‘back alley abortionist’ that legal abortion is supposed to put out of business they turned a blind eye…and when it was exposed they carry on as if the subsequent bills filed in reaction aren’t what they bargained for.

    Twits.

    I tell you, the day is coming when a minor child will die because some Pro-Choice True Believers smuggled her across State lines to evade a Parental Notification law. And when that happens, the Pro-Choice crowd is going to have the unmitigated gall to DEFEND that decision.

    And then they will actually be SURPRISED at the backlash.

    I’m 57, and not especially healthy. I confidently expect to live to see Abortion legal only in one or two States, and court cases over laws making it illegal for women to travel to those States to abort.

    C. S. P. Schofield (f7316d)

  42. This is just incredible: a Democratic co-sponsor of the bill Dawn Adams, who is a nurse practitioner, now says she wouldn’t have signed on to the bill had she read it more clearly. It went farther than she thought it did:

    I made a mistake, and all I know to do is to admit it, tell the truth, and let the chips fall where they may. If you follow my newsletter or have written to me to ask about my votes, you know that I do my best to read and research every bill I vote on. But I did not read a bill I agreed to co-patron and that wasn’t smart or typical. I will work harder and be better for it.

    By now you have heard about the abortion bill, or seen the video. I vaguely remember signing on to this, and I did this in solidarity with my colleague and as a symbolic gesture for a woman’s right to choose.

    On principal alone, I do believe that women have full authority to decide what is best for themselves and their bodies. As a healthcare provider, I believe that all patients are entitled to the sanctity of the patient-provider relationship, and that medical practice should not be legislated by the General Assembly.

    I am sorry that I did not exercise due diligence before this explosion of attention; had I done so, I would not have co-patroned, and here is why: I thought this bill sought to solely reverse the onerous additions to the code made in 2012 by HB462. While it did, it sought to do much more. Had I researched each line of removed language, I would have seen that, and known that there was more research to be done.

    Dana (023079)

  43. Here is what she objected to:

    In the video of Tran’s comments, House Majority Leader Todd Gilbert, R-Shenandoah, asked Tran if a woman would be able to request an abortion as she was going into labor. Tran said that would be allowed under her bill.

    In her letter, Adams said the scenario Gilbert described would classify as a “partial birth infanticide” that would be illegal under state law.

    “This remains a crime and would not be something any sane licensed physician would perform,” Adams said. “The code is very specific and clear about what this means and it is different from an abortion, even late term.”

    Dana (023079)

  44. I guess that was part of the ‘war on women’ that was used against Cuccinelli the following year, in point of fact they dont want any regulation, they don’t care there is a gosnell or a dozen of them.

    Narciso (6d30d1)

  45. anti abortion right to lifers believe a fetus has a right to life but after a baby is born it has no right to life. no welfare or food stamps thats communism. charity should help not your tax money and if charities are overwhelmed as they have been in the past tough. pass a law outlaw abortion once your born kid your on your own.

    lany (928049)

  46. So, infanticide. The baby has been delivered. It’s full-term and breathing. It cries. The “mother” says, “Oh, this is too much” and the doctor kills it?

    This is grounds for impeachment on the basis of moral turpitude.

    Kevin M (21ca15)

  47. The governor, who is also, unbelievably, a pediatric neurologist

    Unbelievable is right. I would hope that there are 100,000 complaints to the medical board suggesting this man should never treat another patient.

    Kevin M (21ca15)

  48. it’s legalized abortion to the point of birth.

    And a governor who considers that an unreasonable limitation. Once the infant is separate and breathing, there is NO ONE who has the authority to do it harm. Isn’t “Do no harm” somewhere in the Hippocratic Oath?

    Kevin M (21ca15)

  49. That might be taking it too far. Using that logic, any medical staff that obey a patient’s DNR order or a living will that expresses the wish to avoid “heroic measures” are committing murder.

    Once the infant SIGNS a DNR, then you’ve got a point; not until. The mother’s ability to choose death for the fetus stops no later than when it is not longer a fetus.

    Kevin M (21ca15)

  50. “This remains a crime and would not be something any sane licensed physician would perform”

    And yet the governor suggests going still further, and he is a licensed physician.

    Kevin M (21ca15)

  51. Can’t wait to see who the democrats will kill next.

    mg (8cbc69)

  52. Christians, Jews and Trump voters might as well walk to the noose.

    mg (8cbc69)

  53. “We want the government not to be involved in these types of decisions,” Northam said. “We want the decision to be made by the mothers and their providers, and this is why, Julie, that legislators, most of whom are men, by the way, shouldn’t be telling a woman what she should and shouldn’t be doing with her body.”

    Say this for Northam: he’s got the talking points absolutely down pat. The Planned Parenthood folks couldn’t have done any better.

    JVW (54fd0b) — 1/30/2019 @ 8:15 pm

    He got that down pat.

    Here’s a simple way to obliterate that point. There are two bodies here.

    Furthermore, I can see the NY passage (as well as this VA failed attempt) to be a GOP rallying point in the next election now… as the facade of abortion being “safe & rare” has been ripped off now.

    whembly (51f28e)

  54. I anticipate the California legislature will soon sanction abortion in the fourth trimester.

    AZ Bob (885937)

  55. I anticipate the California legislature will soon sanction abortion in the fourth trimester.

    Seems like a slippery slope at that point.

    Kevin M (21ca15)

  56. The sad part of the NY state law is any asshole in a relationship with a pregnant mom to be only has to wait until after the 24 weeks are up and then if he assaults the mother and causes her to lose the child, he probably can’t be charged with murder.

    CygnusAnalogMan (9c66ec)

  57. I loved that the Va. Attorney General was on his twitter complaining about how people were lying about this, or taking it out of context. He, of all people, should know that the person’s actual words should be prima facie evidence of what they believe–not some backtracking explanation after they’ve been caught.

    Rochf (877dba)

  58. The bill was defeated…..for now, until the ridiculously Dem-boosting redistricting takes effect and both houses of the GA flip decisively to the Dems.

    This state is circling the bowl. I’m embarrassed by where I live now.

    radar (2334a0)

  59. there is no right to life. it is a privilege. conservatives who believe in economic darwinism the survival of the fittest and moralism shouldn’t apply to free market capitalism. now want an exception to post natal abortions for them!

    lany (741940)

  60. For miss swan, fetus’s no, caterpillars yes.

    Narciso (ff6b13)

  61. Narciso

    You don’t find this intersesting?

    New Witness Emerges In Mueller-Linked Scooter Libby Set-Up
    https://bigleaguepolitics.com/new-witness-emerges-in-mueller-linked-scooter-libby-set-up/

    Eye Doctor (984b6e)

  62. 65. Life is a privilege, huh? That is, the state may grant and take it away at will? With that kind of faulty premise, you and I have nothing to argue about. You might as well be trying to convince me that 2 + 2 = 5.

    Gryph (08c844)

  63. Thankfully, this bill was defeated by the Republican majority.

    But something close to this (maybe not going as far) passed in New York, so what’s the great victory?

    The people for this are mostly responding to lobbying, and the people talking about this pretend this only happens in states where it can be defeated.

    Sammy Finkelman (102c75)

  64. I anticipate the California legislature will soon sanction abortion in the fourth trimester.

    As I recall, that’s an old P.J. O’Rourke quip: Are you for abortion but against capital punishment? Well then, just think of it as a 100th trimester abortion.

    JVW (54fd0b)

  65. The NY law and those being pushed in other states would allow back-alley abortions with coat hangers.

    AZ Bob (885937)

  66. In the 1930s, brilliant ethicists evolved the concept of Lebensunwertige Leben, or life unworthy of life. It was one of the great innovations of the Reich Office for Racial Purity. Clearly the DemonRATs have learned well.

    John Cunningham (b0a502)

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