Patterico's Pontifications

1/24/2019

New York Celebrates A Woman’s Right To Abortion Up To Birth

Filed under: General — Dana @ 3:10 pm



[guest post by Dana]

On Tuesday, the 46th anniversary of the Roe decision, New York cheered at the passage of the Reproductive Health Act, which was signed into law by Gov. Andrew Cuomo. The law provides increased protections for innocent unborn babies women to legally have abortions up to the point of birth:

New York state has enacted strong new legal protections for abortion rights. The new law, signed by Governor Andrew Cuomo on Tuesday, safeguards rights laid out in Roe v. Wade and other court rulings, including a provision permitting late-term abortions when a woman’s health is endangered, The Associated Press reports. The state’s previous law, which had been on the books for nearly 50 years, only permitted abortions after 24 weeks of pregnancy if a woman’s life was at risk.

Governor Cuomo celebrated the passing of the bill in the Democrat-led Senate and Assembly on Tuesday, which happened to be the 46th anniversary of the Roe decision. “In the face of a federal government intent on rolling back Roe v. Wade and women’s reproductive rights, I promised that we would enact this critical legislation within the first 30 days of the new session — and we got it done,” Cuomo said in a statement.

There is a dramatic difference between an abortion necessary to save the life of a mother vs. an aspect of a woman’s *health*, as one is specific, and the other is wide-open and could mean anything, involving any number of factors and varying degrees of subjectivity:

The legislation provides a further exception to permit abortion at any point during pregnancy if a health-care practitioner deems it necessary for the mother’s life or health — the exception that was defined in Roe companion case Doe v. Bolton as “all factors — physical, emotional, psychological, familial, and the woman’s age — relevant to the wellbeing of the patient.” In other words, abortion will be available to women essentially on demand up to the point of birth. The RHA will also decriminalize abortion, moving it from the state’s criminal code to the public-health code.

Also included in the law is the authorization that midwives and physician assistants can now perform some abortions

As Christina Fadden, chair of New York State Right to Life, explained:

The Reproductive Health Act (RHA) was sold to the public saying it merely ‘updates’ the law by codifying Roe v. Wade into our statute, which is not true. RHA has made abortion a ‘fundamental right’ and prohibits all limits on abortion, which not even Roe v. Wade did.

Further insulting unborn baby girls everywhere, Gov. Cuomo celebrated the decision by directing state landmarks, including One World Trade Center to be lit up in pink to “shine a bright light forward for the rest of the nation to follow.”

Untitled

Celebrating along with Gov. Cuomo and New Yorkers, was the head of Planned Parenthood, Dr. Leana Wen, who never misses an opportunity to try and convince us that abortion is standard medical care:

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Obviously, the passage of the law means no such thing. Just because the State gave its blessing and sanctioned the murder of babies at any stage in a pregnancy, does not make it “standard medical care”. How utterly disingenuous of Dr. Wen to make such an illogical claim. If the state of New York said that abortion is murder, and then outlawed it, would Dr. Wen agree that abortion is indeed murder because the State said so? Of course not. This is transparently childish and intellectually dishonest. And just because the State says something is legal, does not make it moral. Apparently we haven’t learned that lesson yet. But of course the goal has always been to normalize this horrific standard medical care, dehumanize its innocent victims by denying their undeniable humanity, and remove any remnant of a long-held moral respect for the sanctity of life from our culture. Safe, legal and rare was just a cheap gimmick to make the pro-abortionists feel righteous about their death march and convince others that there would always be limits to abortion.

I know it goes without saying, but I’ll say it anyway: A full-term 7 lb. baby who is to be the recipient of an incision made at the base of its tiny skull in order to have its brain necessarily sucked out to collapse its skull might strenuously object to Wen’s casual standard medical care rhetoric. In fact, I’m betting that their pitiful, silent screams are just that.

–Dana

185 Responses to “New York Celebrates A Woman’s Right To Abortion Up To Birth”

  1. Into the darkness we go.

    Dana (023079)

  2. Sick to my stomach after reading this post, but it was a good post.

    Dustin (6d7686)

  3. Lord have mercy on us all.

    felipe (023cc9)

  4. Sick

    mg (8cbc69)

  5. they should dub it the moloch worshipers bill, ‘a hard rain’s gonna fall’

    narciso (d1f714)

  6. I’m glad you posted this, Dana, even though the topic is so sad.

    Let’s hope folks in this thread treat the topic with the respect it merits.

    Our society is so very ill.

    Simon Jester (c8876d)

  7. we have to wait and see how many late term abortions there are before and after this bill

    it may not make a significant difference, so there’s no sense getting upset about it until the facts are in

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  8. happyfeet,

    If one values all life, there is indeed reason to be upset that any prohibitions against late-term abortions have been effectively lifted in New York in light of the allowable reasons now being subjectively assigned during the decision making.

    Dana (023079)

  9. fine but you still need data i think

    we need to know how many late term abortions people have now

    and of those, how many of them are justified by the circumstances attending those case

    then we need to see how many we have after the law is enacted, and how many of those are unwarranted or unjustified

    but this discussion can’t really proceed super-rationally without somebody adducing the number of late term abortions that have been performed in NY for at least a year prior to the change in law, and preferably a few years, characterized with as much ancillary data as possible, so we can look for secular trends

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  10. oops those *cases* i mean

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  11. Any politician, any parent, any medical professional, any human being, who thinks late term abortion is reasonable under normal circumstances, as a matter of simple choice, has a deep, deep sickness.

    this discussion can’t really proceed super-rationally without somebody adducing the number of late term abortions that have been performed

    I disagree, happyfeet. The law is saying this incredibly evil behavior is OK. The law is saying that 7 lb person does not have any protection from society, any rights.

    Hazen, North Dakota, had no murders or rapes reported last year. It would still be wrong if that jurisdiction legalized murder and rape.

    Dustin (6d7686)

  12. Sad. Sick. New York values.

    nk (dbc370)

  13. I would like to see an activist DoJ prosecute a New York doctor for depriving a full-term fetus of its civil rights, and the governor and his administration for conspiracy to allow same.

    Kevin M (21ca15)

  14. So very, very wrong. And the people applauded as Cuomo (D-NY) signed this abomination.

    This is real genocide.

    Colonel Haiku (9d2fbb)

  15. no this is all twistered up Mr. Dustin – Hazen sounds lovely though

    but back in NY some number of late term abortions are justified by whatever reasons, and maybe all of them are, but cause of all the lawfare in this most fallen of whirls, the NY lawmakers want to make sure people can proceed without fear of being prosecuted or investigated and such

    that’s what’s key – taking the threat of legal entanglement out of the picture

    but that doesn’t mean the numbers of late term abortions or the fact sets that attend these cases will change appreciably

    we have to know more to better assess this

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  16. but that doesn’t mean the numbers of late term abortions or the fact sets that attend these cases will change appreciably

    we have to know more to better assess this

    happyfeet (28a91b) — 1/24/2019 @ 4:31 pm

    If someone took away my right to wear a MAGA hat, I would be furious, even though it’s not a right I plan to exercise. Laws are part of how society evolves and expresses some of its values. Sure, not all values but some.

    If you are thinking about “whatever reasons” for justifying these abortions, I think it’s fair to actually describe those reasons in the law. Let’s recognize that the child has rights, and weigh them against whatever other rights and situations we are talking about.

    Dustin (6d7686)

  17. There is something to be said for fewer New Yorkers being born, and abortion-loving libtards everywhere aborting themselves out of the gene pool, but it’s a small comfort.

    nk (dbc370)

  18. On the other hand, nk, children sometimes grow up to rebel against the evils they observed in their families. It’s a natural mechanism that is thwarted by killing them for convenience. I believe that many of the things our society badly needs, leaders, cures for diseases, inventions, were destroyed in the womb.

    Dustin (6d7686)

  19. The paradox here is that I wouldn’t want anyone who supports this law to actually reproduce or raise a child. So should I support the law?

    Daren Jonescu (d6f3b4)

  20. As a charter member of the knuckle dragging rethuglican racist right wing fascist party who has read the demographics of who is getting abortions I’m conflicted. I think I’ll go with a woman’s right to choose.

    Thud Muffle (5a4596)

  21. I was being Swiftian, like 19 and 20.

    What this is, is SCOTUS strategy for a future case looking to overturn some anti-abortion law. SCOTUS has established the rule for Incorporating Fake Constitutional Rights that goes something like this, and I’m being totally serious, you can look it up:
    1. “Seven states have legalized late term abortion.”
    2. “That tells us that the Civil War was fought so Harriett S. Tubman could have a late term abortion.”
    3. “The Fifth, Ninth and Fourteenth Amendments apply.”
    4. “We, therefore, order all the other states and the federal government to legalize late term abortion.”

    nk (dbc370)

  22. IIRC the stats for late-term abortions are almost all (it might be all) wanted pregnancies where something has gone very very wrong, so I don’t think this will make any real difference. It looks to me like a response to the “no, never” laws being passed in other states.

    Nic (896fdf)

  23. It looks to me like a response to the “no, never” laws being passed in other states

    Or preparation for the perceived day that Roe v Wade is overruled and abortion is returned to its status as something to be decided at the state level.

    Kishnevi (121377)

  24. State sanctioned murder of innocent children.

    NJRob (756528)

  25. This:

    Or preparation for the perceived day that Roe v Wade is overruled and abortion is returned to its status as something to be decided at the state level.

    Dana (023079)

  26. Will New York also consider “clarifying” the fifth commandment?

    John B Boddie (66f464)

  27. Don’t come ‘round here with your Judeo-Christian values, boy!

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  28. They ought to put ctluthu on the state seal:

    Narciso (2171ef)

  29. 22. Kansas keeps stats on the reasons for late abortions there. I recently saw that it was running about 51%/49% something wrong/healthy baby.

    Susanita (a92a8a)

  30. Will New York also consider “clarifying” the fifth commandment?

    And how would honoring your parents need clarification?

    Kishnevi (fe869b)

  31. “Thou shalt not kill” is the Fifth for Catholics.

    nk (dbc370)

  32. It’s actually the Sixth. I know some Christian traditions think the First Commandment (I am the Lord your God, etc) is just a prefatory statement, but that obscures some parallels between the first five and the second five. The Sabbath is the eternal testimony to the fact God created the world, and thus parallels the commandment not to bear false witness.
    As for the First and Sixth Commandments: “Someone with true belief in God as the Creator and Sustainer of human life will not commit murder.” (Artscroll Tanach, based on the Talmuduc era compilation known as Mechilta). The first five are commandments focused on Man’s relationship to God. Honor of parents is really a way to honor God, the true Source of Life.

    Kishnevi (fe869b)

  33. This is good news for the abortion industry.

    Abdul Abulbul Amir (90a91c)

  34. It is the Sixth, according to the Septuagint, for me as a Greek Orthodox, but apparently the Catholic Catechism combines the First and Second (of the Septuagint) and then divides up the Tenth, creating a different numbering system.

    nk (dbc370)

  35. It has always been about the abortion providers and not the women, Son of the Prophet.

    nk (dbc370)

  36. I thought you believed abortion was a necessary evil, nk or is it merely the extent of the law?

    Narciso (2171ef)

  37. According to the CDC numbers for NY in 2013:

    Out of 69,804 abortions, 2.5 percent — 1,752 — were late-term (post 21 weeks).

    The data doesn’t break the numbers down by specific week of pregnancy other than more than 21 weeks.

    Further, if we look at 2nd and 3rd tri abortions by percentage, NY is at 8.1%:

    The state does not break down abortion by gestation, however they do publish abortion data by procedure and resident county. In 2015, 7064 out of the 86,627 were potentially later term procedures: 6,985 D + E, 51 saline abortions, 28 Prostaglandin .

    Dana (023079)

  38. When did I ever give you such an impression, narciso?

    I think life begins at conception, a miscarriage is a tragedy, and abortion is homicide.

    Homicide, however, is permissible in self-defense, to prevent death or great bodily harm to the mother; and I would extend it to rape and child molestation to put an end to the crime committed against the woman or girl. I suppose you could call that a necessary evil?

    nk (dbc370)

  39. I got New York’s celebration right here, hangin’…

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  40. Another point in favor of Eastern Orthodoxy

    Catholics based themselves on the Vulgate, deriving from St Jerome. But if you go through the Vulgate, you will quite a bit of evidence to support the idea that Jerome was not a good translator. More than a few places in which he chose a translation that is seriously inaccurate. And he did not rely on the LXX, according to his own account, since he claimed to have learnt Hebrew from local rabbis and consulted with them while doing the translation.

    Of course the LXX is not perfect. The Talmud gives a list of verses which were intentionally mistranslated so that Hellenistic Gentiles would not feel insulted.

    Kishnevi (fe869b)

  41. I must have sworn I heard you say well there’d be more likely democrat voters that would be aborted, the dems except for van Hoffman and Steinem really think that way.

    Narciso (2171ef)

  42. Great post, Dana.

    This puts the onus on the New York Catholic leadership, seeing as how Cuomo is a self-professed Catholic. They have already been publicly critical of this decision, but we have come to the point where they have to seriously consider excommunicating him. For the record, I am not a believer that the Church should deny communion to someone just because they are pro-abortion, or to a politician who votes for pro-abortion bills, but Cuomo’s latest move to “spike the ball” in the face of pro-life Catholics with the lighting up of the buildings and bridges along with his earlier declaration that pro-life believers are not welcome in New York should convince the Church to excommunicate him. Cuomo is of course taking advantage of a Church mired in controversy with a very weak leader, so he’ll probably manage to skate by.

    JVW (54fd0b)

  43. Homicide, however, is permissible in self-defense, to prevent death or great bodily harm to the mother

    Which was probably Jesus’s view.
    Rabbinic law allows abortion to save the mother up until the actual moment of birth (defined as the moment the head emerges from the birth canal), and this was already settled law by the time of Jesus. Jesus freely criticized Jewish law, and some of those points deal with much less serious matters. Yet he said nothing about abortion. Which to me implies either Jesus agreed with Rabbinic law on this point, or that the writers of the Gospel felt that whatever objections he raised were not important enough to be preserved.

    Kishnevi (fe869b)

  44. Yes, I did do that, but I was being Swiftian with maybe a touch of reverse psychology. Like in my Comment #17 on this thread.

    nk (dbc370)

  45. This. This is why we have Trump.

    JRH (fe281f)

  46. It is nothing more than euthanasia of the young.

    tmm (3d89bc)

  47. earlier declaration that pro-life believers are not welcome in New York

    Reading the link, it sounds to me like he was disinviting conservatives in general, not Catholics in particular.

    Kishnevi (fe869b)

  48. Yes I think that he went full thuggery this time, now will excommunication make any diffedence?

    Narciso (2171ef)

  49. Yes I think that he went full thuggery this time, now will excommunication make any diffedence?

    No, but next time he tries to tie his environmental policies into Pope Francis or tells us how his faith demands that we create a huge public welfare state, even the New York Times would have to acknowledge that his religion has disowned him.

    JVW (54fd0b)

  50. This. This is why we have Trump.

    JRH (fe281f) — 1/24/2019 @ 8:45 pm

    Trump was asked on national television if he would ban partial birth abortion and he said he would not. He was an outspoken pro-choice advocate who held parties honoring the founder of a major pro-choice group.

    The idea that a pro-life sentiment is a reason to support someone who advocated the most extreme form of abortion is misguided.

    Dustin (6d7686)

  51. Well, what if he repents just before the last candle hits the ground?

    nk (dbc370)

  52. Yes he said a stupid thing, but his policies have been solid on that score.

    Narciso (2171ef)

  53. Yeah, Trump is not pro-life. Basically, he doesn’t care, it’s not important to him either way.

    nk (dbc370)

  54. Yes he said a stupid thing, but his policies have been solid on that score.

    Yep. I have no doubt that Trump cares not one whit about abortion one way or the other, but he seems to believe that he made a deal with social conservatives to deliver on a largely pro-life agenda, and thus far he’s holding up his end of the bargain.

    JVW (54fd0b)

  55. How is that different from say Chicago values like good man burke?

    Narciso (2171ef)

  56. 22. False. Partial delivery of a baby, with only the head remaining in the birth canal, and then killing it/him/her is NEVER necessary to save the life of a mother.

    In fact, the only circumstance in which terminating a pregnancy would save a mother’s life is in cases of severe pre-eclampsia, in which case an emergency C-section or, if late enough, an induced live birth would be safer and more effective than an invasive abortion procedure to save the mother’s life — if indeed that is the real concern.

    I ask two questions of pro-abortion ghouls, and not a one “Pro-choice” individual has ever given me a sufficient answer:

    1. Are you for or against fetal homicide laws? If you are, how can you reconcile the prosecution of fetal homicide with your advocacy for abortion?

    2. If an abortion doctor came to you and said, “I’m only doing abortions to save mothers’ lives, but I can’t do enough of them to make a living,” would you be okay with that? Why not?

    Gryph (08c844)

  57. abortion foes cause more abortions then they stop. you are more interested in punishing girls for having sex and getting pregnant then preventing girls from needing abortions. your concerned about the unborn you say ;but after they are born good luck kid you are on your own. welfare is socialism!

    lany (31fd49)

  58. As I am not a doctor, I cannot tell you the specific circumstances when terminating a pregnancy would save a mother’s life or the best way in which to abort for the safety of the mother. The literature seems to say that a D&C is safer for a woman than whatever method they use where a D&C is not legal, but I am not an expert. However, there are also circumstances when continuing a non-viable pregnancy would be cruel and dangerous (there are some really bad birth defects out there).

    There are some extreme pro-life people who maintain that there is no danger, ever, but that is just not true, since women die and I am not going to judge a woman who looks at her 3 born kids and decides that she needs to be there for them.

    Those don’t seem to be difficult questions if a person is very pro-choice? The answers aren’t hard to project, even if one isn’t very pro-choice.

    If a person doesn’t believe that a fetus holds personhood, I don’t know why they would be for fetal homicide laws. Should they be legal? given that the status of a fetus is currently that is does not hold the right to life?

    And I don’t know why you would need to make a living on just abortions. Surely a doctor could provide other OBGYN services? A lot of doctors provide both already.

    Nic (896fdf)

  59. However, there are also circumstances when continuing a non-viable pregnancy would be cruel and dangerous (there are some really bad birth defects out there).

    It’s remarkable that you or anyone would look at a young child with birth defects and determine that their life is not worth living. We’ve become a crass and ugly society when we take it upon ourselves to declare that some children are disposable.

    JVW (54fd0b)

  60. There are birth defects that mean a baby won’t live after birth. How do you tell a woman she has to carry a pregnancy another 3 months when you know her baby will die?

    Nic (896fdf)

  61. 60 like the nazis they don’t care. the play incident at vichy will explain how these people think.

    lany (31fd49)

  62. As a grandpa whose granddaughter has sturge-weber, I love every minute I spend with her and am grateful she is with us. Cant imagine how people would throw the opportunity away.

    mg (8cbc69)

  63. Another pos republican voting for higher taxes. This moron is another Romney, all these two ever did was make Massachusetts extremely liberal.

    mg (8cbc69)

  64. GOP Sen. Collins: I’m not sure Trump understands living ‘paycheck to paycheck’

    does anybody really believe this dirty lobsterpot bimbo knows what living paycheck to paycheck involves

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  65. oopers too many bold letters

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  66. This is simply macabre…

    I’m about as pro-life as one can be, but even I can see that we haven’t been winning this in the cultural/political sphere.

    At best, it’s a stalemate…which is not good enough.

    Having said that, I wonder if we (“we” meaning pro-lifers) should adjust our tactics a bit and also really advocate for increased spending to support women’s pregnancies/streamlined adoptions/post-pregnancies such that “having a baby” wouldn’t be an enough of an excuse to pursue an abortion.

    I know this runs contrary to my conservative “smaller government” perspective and I don’t really know how to square that with me advocating for more entitlement spendings.

    However… in this case… even if it saves one life…would you?

    whembly (51f28e)

  67. lifeydoodles are the consummate virtue signalers Mr. whembly

    they’re like the climate change hoaxers of the right where everything can be conveniently sublimated to their one heavily-fetishized issue

    both groups are heavy on the feels very lite on the empiricism

    remember this and you can’t go wrong:

    that government governs best what governs least

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  68. Um they go after crisis pregnancy facilities remember, so moloch must have his sacrifices.

    Narciso (335c3a)

  69. All of these major public calumnies have one common cause: Giving people whose nature and profession are fundamentally that of intermediaries the powers and immunities reserved for executives.

    “The press just reports the news, leave them alone!”

    *press goes on to conduct mobbing and reputational intimidation campaigns against anyone it doesn’t like, claims immunity by the fact that every other press outlet was doing it*

    “women just take care of children, let them choose!”

    *urban women go on to get bullied by men and managers in charge of their careers into aborting children in a perpetual career climb/search for Mr. Right*

    *the Special Counsel is just a public servant!*

    *proceeds to tip off CNN hours in advance for a predawn SWAT raid on a man for process violations and language that would literally never, ever have been prosecuted in any other circumstance*

    Teferi (3add76)

  70. 58. The idea of “would you be okay with these restrictions on abortion if they put abortionists out of business” is a theoretical. It’s proof enough to me that people who claim to want to keep abortions rare are lying.

    As for you not being a doctor, that’s the thing; now in New York you don’t need to be one to kill unborn children. That’s proof from the politicians that they don’t give a greasy brown crap about “women’s health.” Andrew Cuomo is practically inviting another Kermit Gosnell to do business in his state. And Gosnell was not an outlier. That is exactly what the abortion industry does; that is what the abortion industry looks like. It’s just hidden behind the veils of media secrecy most of the time.

    Gryph (08c844)

  71. We wouldn’t need to spend one extra penny, whembly. Just use a small part of the money we’re wasting on the useless and used up through Medicare and Medicaid. We’re spending $26 billion per year on AIDS alone.

    But this country’s priorities are f’ked up. And, also, how will Madame Femme Manchu (that would be the head of Planned Parenthood) be able to afford a new Lamborghini? Like I’ve said before, it’s not about the women. It’s about the abortion industry.

    nk (dbc370)

  72. *Dr. Femme Manchu*

    nk (dbc370)

  73. Having said that, I wonder if we (“we” meaning pro-lifers) should adjust our tactics a bit and also really advocate for increased spending advocate for marriage to support women’s pregnancies/streamlined adoptions/post-pregnancies such that “having a baby” being afraid wouldn’t be an enough of an excuse to pursue an abortion.

    fify

    felipe (5b25e2)

  74. Kishnevi (fe869b) — 1/24/2019 @ 8:26 pm

    It is true that the Catholic Church used to have the Latin Vulgate as its official translation, but this is no longer the case, in part because of newer translations based on contemporary scholarship. I find it odd that while you recognize that the Septuagint was flawed and attribute the flaws to a willfull act of subterfuge, but not to poor scholarship, you agree to call St. Jerome, someone who lived many centuries closer to the events with access to documents that are no longer extant, a bad translator. Would it not be wiser to perhaps allow that St. Jerome had similar challenges as those who produced the Septuagint, and that the verses in question were simply his solution to each challenge?

    felipe (5b25e2)

  75. JVW (54fd0b) — 1/24/2019 @ 8:34 pm

    I agree, JVW. I must point out that excommunication, while a real act of the Church in extraordinary circumstances, is something one does to oneself*. While denial of Communion is something the Church may, in order to prevent scandal, do to one of the faithful.

    *e.g. committing a mortal sin puts one in a state of disgrace which requires the Sacrament of Confession to ring one back into a state of grace.

    felipe (5b25e2)

  76. 62… amen, mg.

    Colonel Haiku (61b436)

  77. In other news, the FBI appears to have given CNN a heads-up that they would be arresting Roger Stone this morning.

    Colonel Haiku (61b436)

  78. But it could’ve been Mueller’s office that kicked-off the reality-TV circus

    Bad Geezer, Bad geezer, whatcha gonna do?
    Whatcha gonna do when Herr Mueller come for you?

    Colonel Haiku (61b436)

  79. Nic (896fdf) — 1/25/2019 @ 12:53 am

    I can say with absolute certainty that every child born will die, was is your point? That it will die sooner than others, so what? Every child has a right to be loved; do they who love for a shorter time, love less?

    felipe (5b25e2)

  80. It’s my personal experience that the Catholic Church has been very constructive in the pro-life battle, more than just marches and excommunication. Just on my own block, and on my side of the street, there were five children who had been adopted from young, unwed mothers through Catholic adoption services. One that I know for sure of at birth at the hospital, the mother having been looked after during her pregnancy and the arrangements made in advance.

    nk (dbc370)

  81. 76: Sorry, but marriage alone won’t work.

    No patriarchy, no power returned to husbands, power and money ends up retained in the oligarchy of cads and middle managers, and they’re all very pro-choice, since it keeps women unattached to anything but them.

    In any case, it’s time for a reminder:

    High-profile FBI screwups:

    Omar Mateen
    Nikolas Cruz
    Dylan Roof
    Nidal Hasan
    Tamerlan Tsarnaev

    High-profile FBI success:

    Paul Manafort
    Roger Stone

    Teferi (4a2db3)

  82. (Continued from #83) Which pisses the baby killers off no end and they do their best to defame and sabotage the Catholic and other religious adoption services every way they can.

    nk (dbc370)

  83. Which is why i was surprise the 5th circuit rebuke to moloch minions didnt get more play.

    Narciso (335c3a)

  84. Abortion is NOT a reproductive right.
    It is a TERMINATION right.

    jb (866ebc)

  85. abortion isn’t a right it’s a service

    a service you can buy for legal tender

    willing buyer meets willing seller

    why can you not see the invisible hand

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  86. 88: Nah, abortion is just a dark sacrament by which a woman obtains social and emotional approval from the world at large and the gods who serve them.

    As someone else said, it’s the twisted echo of Jesus’ words: “This is my body.”

    Teferi (6a511b)

  87. Ball of Confusion Contusions

    People freakin’ out, like teh m00nbats
    Why, because of the color of the hats
    Run, run, run, but you sho’ can’t hide
    An eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth.
    Vote for him and you’re racist, Jim
    Crap on, brother, crap on.

    Well, the only person talkin’ ’bout love thy brother is the preacher
    And it seems nobody’s interested in young boys, but their teachers (nudge wink)
    Segregation, determination, demonstration, decimation, aggravation,
    humiliation, subjugation of our nation
    Ball Of Contusions that’s what the world is today (yeah, yeah)

    The blue states are all into dealin’ grass
    young folks walkin’ ’round with their heads up their ass
    Pension funds all in the red, and ohhhhhhh the beat goes on

    Eve of destruction, tax reduction,
    City inspectors, bill collectors,
    Evolution, revolution, gun control, bad rock and roll,
    Shootin’ rockets up to Mars, robots out there drivin’ cars
    Democrats say more taxes will solve ev’rything, yeah, pull the other one

    Round and round and around it spins, where things are headin’, nobody wins
    Great gag a maggot, can’t you hear me Bobby Saget? just a
    Ball of Contusions that’s what the world is today. (yeah, yeah)

    Colonel Haiku (61b436)

  88. There are birth defects that mean a baby won’t live after birth. How do you tell a woman she has to carry a pregnancy another 3 months when you know her baby will die?

    There are thousands and thousands of special needs children living worthy lives today who were assumed to be “non-viable” in the womb. That’s so often just a dodge that abortion fanatics use to justify late-term abortions. It’s a great deal like euthanasia in the Netherlands; the Dutch promised everyone that there would be extreme safeguards and that only people who are terminally ill would be allowed to die, but it turns out that an awful lot of people who are suffering from nothing worse than depression are being euthanized, thanks to the extremism of the pro-euthanasia crowd.

    JVW (54fd0b)

  89. It’s the same trick that abortion fanatics play with demanding that the “health of the mother” be taken into consideration. What they are truly talking about is the mental health of the mother, and that means that any woman who can find a pro-abortion psychiatrist who will vouch that the woman will have emotional difficulties carrying the child to term will thus be granted a late-term abortion, even if he child is otherwise quite healthy. The upshot is that won’t find a group of people who consistently behave more unethically than abortion fanatics, as shown by the craven behavior of Planned Parenthood employees and executives shown in video after video.

    JVW (54fd0b)

  90. Teferi (4a2db3) — 1/25/2019 @ 8:16 am

    I looked over my comment and nowhere do I find the word “alone.”
    A But even if I would have been so foolish to say so, marriage is not a solitary thing, it is a communal thing; tangent in every marriage is the existence of two other families. The bride’s and the groom’s as well as uncles and aunts. Thus, support in many different ways is thought to be available from this community of families.

    felipe (5b25e2)

  91. I believe that abortion should be legal. I also believe that any possibility of it remaining legal, outside of heavy restriction, is being pissed away by the Pro-Choice side, and this is an example of exactly what I mean. To hell with viability. To hell with the objections of people who don’t agree with The Progressive Agenda. Push this kind of thing through, and then act all indignant when the backlash arrived.

    *spit*

    Anybody remember the Kermit Gosnell case? When it came to light that he had been operating his abattoir for years, in spite of supposed oversight by various groups (most of them rabidly pro-choice) some Pro-Choice ninny actually went on record say that it was too important to make sure than poor women had access to abortion services that they didn’t look too closely.

    This twit ACTUALLY came out and said that having poor brown babies aborted was more important than making sure it wasn’t done in a combination house of horrors and bacteria’s paradise.

    And they then had the nerve to be indignant when state legislatures wanted to tighten regulation of abortion clinics.

    C. S. P. Schofield (531c3d)

  92. I’m just sick over this. I can’t imagine passing this barbaric act into law and then celebrating it.

    Rochf (877dba)

  93. Colonel Haiku (61b436) — 1/25/2019 @ 7:32 am

    the FBI appears to have given CNN a heads-up that they would be arresting Roger Stone this morning.

    Somebody violated teh rules or the law. This goes on all the time.

    CNN is protecting whoever told them. They say their camera crew just happened to be standing aorund (according to Mark Simone on WOR.)

    The source who connected Roger Stone to Wikipeaks may be Randy Credico. Mueller’s office probably suspects amuch deeper connection. Another person they have in mind is probably Jerome Corso. Marrk Simone thins the Trump campaign official may be Steve Bannon.

    Roger Stoen is the one who suggested Paul MAnafort be named Donald Trump’s campaign manager. This was when Trump was beinbg told that yes, his delegates could be unfaithful. Roger Stone told Donald Trump Manafort was the best person for holding delegates (based on the 1976 Republican convention)

    Manafort is also in court with his awyers claiming he didn’t lie but he had a bad memory. It’s about not telling Mueller, after he’d agreed to co-operate, things like giving some polls to a probable Russian intelligence agent. (this particular omission was recovered by the press from technically flawed redaction.) Mueller found out that from Rick Gates.

    Sammy Finkelman (102c75)

  94. but assuange, had told everybody, he had Hillary’s emails back in august, outside of scope,

    narciso (d1f714)

  95. 77. felipe (5b25e2) — 1/25/2019 @ 7:17 am

    that the Septuagint was flawed and attribute the flaws to a willfull act of subterfuge, but not to poor scholarship,

    It was both.

    And it was not so much poor scholarship, as working from a flawed text.

    The texts in Egypt were somewaht corrupted compared to those in Israel and the ones in Israel less good than the ones in Babylonia.

    In the end, probably circa 41-44 CE, they standardized everything, and, for the Prophets, relied on 3 manuscripts in the temple dating from the time of Nehemiah – whatever 2 of the 3 said, they used.

    What was finally settled on for the book of Samuel might have more errors than some others that were rejected – that’s probably because the standard one(s) were based on an old manuscript and I think they went for the oldest manuscript (even when they knew orally it wss wrong – in that case there was a Kri (read out loud) and Ksiv (written) version with the correction never being made in writing because they didn’t have authority for that.

    But, maybe in some cases they didn’t amend it verbally either because they didn’t trust the alternative source. You could point out 2 or 3 places where the book of Samuel has a problem. You have what sounds like Saul being one year old when he started ruling (although there’s another way of understanding that phrase, and you have Goliath being killed much later by someone else (it’s corrected in the book of Chronicles – not usually relied on by Rabbinical sources.) It was the brother of Goliath who was killed later, and the error would seem to be because someone at some point was copying off a faded text and couldn’t always read it. The name of the brother is mistaken for part of a place name.

    Sammy Finkelman (102c75)

  96. As Stone said, the FBI could’ve just given his lawyer a call and asked that he come in and surrender himself.

    I guess that’s not how these a-holes operate anymore…

    Colonel Haiku (61b436)

  97. Nobody needed this law, but Cuomo needed to do something positive for abortion to show…I am nnot sure to show what. To show how much people who are pro-abortion have to fear wfrom the Republican party?

    The only way to do more was to go beyond Roe v Wade.

    Sammy Finkelman (102c75)

  98. Anyone else notice how ALL of these alleged crimes people have either been charged or convicted of occurred after Herr Mueller’s probe started?

    Colonel Haiku (61b436)

  99. They also passed some election “reforms” but I don’t think these election reforms included:

    1) Any reduction in requirements to get on the ballot.

    2) Any ability to change party registration later tahn the previous November election.

    3) Any change in reapportionment procedures.

    But they did put in some in-person early voting.

    This is all to help incumebents and well financed or experienced political candidates.

    Not all that Cuomo does is bad. He’s really going against MTA capital spending. The transportaion industrial complex he called it. The MTA is heaidng toward afinancial crash. They never made any plans past 2021 or 2022.

    Sammy Finkelman (102c75)

  100. some hacks are more equal then others:

    https://www.politico.com/story/2019/01/24/elliott-broidy-republican-fundraiser-hacked-emails-1124067

    the culprit is a Moroccan diplomat working with Qatar,

    narciso (d1f714)

  101. Gryph–
    22. False. Partial delivery of a baby, with only the head remaining in the birth canal, and then killing it/him/her is NEVER necessary to save the life of a mother.

    Modern medicine is making such cases vanishingly rare, but “never” it not true, and even fifty years or so ago, it was not unheard of. A few years ago, there was a case in Ireland where a woman was not allowed to have an abortion, and (allegedly) died as a result.

    Of course, (referring to your second question) the relative rarity of such cases means that you wouldn’t need a doctor who specializes in abortions. Any competent gyn/ob could be counted on to do it. And D&Cs themselves are a standard procedure independent of abortion and pregnancy. My mother had at least three in the decade after I was born because of uterine problems (I was too young to know what the problems were, of course) that did not involve pregnancy.

    kishnevi (bb03e6)

  102. “Not all that Cuomo does is bad.“

    No, there’s bad and there’s really bad and there is terrible.

    Colonel Haiku (61b436)

  103. 101. Mueller is trying to uncover evidence of a Russian spy ring involving Roger Stone, Paul Manafort, Rick Gates and Michael Flynn, and he expected evidence of that to be in Roger Stone’s home.

    Sammy Finkelman (102c75)

  104. except you look at Kermit Gosnell, and you see where this ends up,

    narciso (d1f714)

  105. George Gamow was nearly killed at birth in 1904 – at that time a partial brth abortion may have been medically necessary – it would be terrible oinstrectrics now in any non-thrid world facility.

    Sammy Finkelman (102c75)

  106. How does the NY law get around the federal civil-rights laws that were enacted to criminalize certain killings in the Old South? Certainly killing a 38-week-old fetus — because the mother person carrying it decides a child is too stressful — deprives the infant if its civil rights. Is there a Supreme Court ruling that says a person isn’t a person until it’s toes have left the birth canal?

    And even if the SC were to strike down Roe/Casey, would it leave this issue to the states completely? Or would it need to set a date past which the fetus is a person under the law? That can’t be left to the states to decide.

    Kevin M (21ca15)

  107. *its

    Kevin M (21ca15)

  108. CNN is protecting whoever told them. They say their camera crew just happened to be standing aorund (according to Mark Simone on WOR.)

    That part of Fort Lauderdale is not the kind of place where people hang out on the street at 5 AM or any other time of day.

    http://livinglasolas.com/fort-lauderdale-neighborhoods/las-olas-isles/las-olas-isles-seven-isles/

    kishnevi (bb03e6)

  109. Kevin, as far as I know, no court has ever issued a decision on when personhood (for the sake of exercising rights) actually starts. Common law generally assumed it to be the moment of birth, but then inserted some kinks to manage the problem of a child being named as an heir, legatee, or donee of property before it was actually born.

    kishnevi (bb03e6)

  110. oh hey look Mar-a-lago’s chief hirer of undocumented foreigners is on TV talking about walls.

    JRH (fe281f)

  111. Kevin M (21ca15) — 1/25/2019 @ 11:17 am

    Is there a Supreme Court ruling that says a person isn’t a person until it’s toes have left the birth canal?

    The 14th amendment seeems to imply birth is pre-condition, or at least apre-condition for having civil rights. They are not yet citisens.

    http://constitutionus.com

    Article XIV (Amendment 14)

    1: All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.

    There is also the mater that the chanches of continuing survival in the shrt term are not as high as after birth, or after a few days after birth.

    Sammy Finkelman (102c75)

  112. Heh!!!

    “The FBI had to do a bin Laden-style pre-dawn raid on a guy who was just released on his own recognizance? Ok.“

    —- Sean Davis

    Your tax dollars at work!!!

    Colonel Haiku (61b436)

  113. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fetal_rights

    The American Convention on Human Rights which is referred to was signed by the US in 1977 but has never been ratified by the Senate.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Convention_on_Human_Rights

    kishnevi (bb03e6)

  114. Colonel Haiku (61b436) — 1/25/2019 @ 12:16 pm

    My assumption is that a search warrant was executed at the time of the arrest.

    BTW, he was released on $250K bond, which is not ROR.

    kishnevi (bb03e6)

  115. I’d like to see every discussion of abortion include a demand to take a position on the following question: Is a woman entitled to have a pregnancy terminated (this will cover all argument based on women’s authority over their own bodies) or is a woman entitled to a dead fetus? It seems that the moral argument based on women’s ownership of their bodies doesn’t extend to demanding a dead child too. Any mid to late term abortion could be done with the idea of potentially preserving the life of the fetus.

    RigelDog (9a84b7)

  116. Since there seems to be some doubt over facts which I believe ought to be self-evident, I will quote a board-certified Ob/Gyn, Dr. Omar Hamada, MD:

    “I want to clear something up so that there is absolutely no doubt. I’m a board-certified ob/gyn who has delivered over 2,500 babies. There is not a single fetal or maternal condition that requires third-trimester abortion. Not one. Delivery, yes. Abortion, no.”

    Also worth noting, despite America’s ridiculously and unnecessarily high abortion figures, the USA still has the highest rate of eclampsia deaths of any developed nation. If saving the lives of mothers is really the agenda here, perhaps doctors and ob/gyns especially should be educated to recognize the signs of pre-eclampsia. When the British NHS is doing better than America in any metric, I think it calls for some introspection.

    112. Courts have held that unborn children, and indeed in certain cases children yet to be conceived, can inherit property and be parties to certain forms of trusts. Whether this speaks to personhood necessarily hasn’t been decided by the Supreme Court of the United States of America, but it has been addressed in several states’ superior courts to the extent that I think you could apply the reasonable person standard in deciding whether a conceived-but-not-born child is a person himself/herself.

    The whole point of inquiring after one’s opinion on fetal homicide laws is that if I kill someone else’s unborn baby and am thus prosecuted for homicide, the deciding factor is in the desire of the mother to carry that child to term. If she kills it, it’s an abortion. If someone else does, it’s a homicide. How any right-thinking person can find that anything other than absolutely bone-chilling is beyond me.

    Gryph (08c844)

  117. Concerning whether there is a valid *need* for third term abortions:

    I want to clear something up so that there is absolutely no doubt.

    I’m a Board Certified OB/GYN who has delivered over 2,500 babies.

    There’s not a single fetal or maternal condition that requires third trimester abortion. Not one. Delivery, yes. Abortion, no.

    And that’s my question: if we are talking about a full-term baby that is going to be aborted, why not spare its life, deliver it, and put it up for adoption? Also, consider if a baby miraculously survives a third term abortion, what then? I suppose just put it in a basin and let it writhe in pain until it has no breath left. Because we are a civilized society, where human rights matter, dammit.

    Dana (023079)

  118. 120. I beat you to the punch, Dana. 😛 But yeah.

    Gryph (5efbad)

  119. And Dana, do you think we can really claim to be a civilized society when those who feel somewhat uncomfortable with killing babies make excuses for those few who do worship at the altar of Moloch?

    Gryph (5efbad)

  120. If only this were true:

    According to a new report, unborn babies in New York have adopted a new strategy to help them stay alive under the state’s barbaric new abortion laws: identifying as convicted criminals so they can’t legally be executed under the state’s constitution.
    Since capital punishment in the state has been banned but abortion is legal pretty much whenever and however you want, unborn babies quickly formulated the survival strategy of identifying as murderers, rapists, and genocidal maniacs.
    “I now identify as a serial killer indicted on five counts of murder,” said one 6-month-old baby, whose mother was considering an abortion. “Therefore, under state law, I cannot be executed. Sorry, mom.”
    “Guess you’ll just have to like be a mom or something,” he added, shrugging.

    Paul Montagu (27e440)

  121. It’s a swiftian solution,

    Narciso (49b187)

  122. Oh, I missed that, Gryph. I was being sarcastic re us being a “civilized society”. This move by NY, I think, is the first of many states following suit. It will be normalized, come hell or high water.

    Dana (023079)

  123. Yet another MD points out a situation where ending the pregnancy one way or another is medically necessary but the baby would inevitably die, and Dr Hamada agrees with him.
    https://mobile.twitter.com/eugenegu/status/1088942443347599360

    Kishnevi (bec396)

  124. Here is Dr. Hamada’s response:

    Thank you for your message Dr. Gu. Of course, I agree those are conditions are incompatible with life. The child will need to be delivered regardless. But their lives are not mine to take – especially as a physician.

    Dana (023079)

  125. abortion’s not the be all end all issue its adherents pro or con would have you believe

    You’re being tricked by the social media.

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  126. I’m posting the relevant tweets in a group for readers’ convenience:

    Dr. Hamada:

    I want to clear something up so that there is absolutely no doubt.
    I’m a Board Certified OB/GYN who has delivered over 2,500 babies.

    There’s not a single fetal or maternal condition that requires third trimester abortion. Not one. Delivery, yes. Abortion, no.

    Dr. Gu’s response:

    Dr. Hamada, you know as well as me that there are humane indications to terminate a third trimester pregnancy. When the mother has a life threatening emergency and the fetus has anencephaly or bilateral renal agenesis, it makes no sense to deliver a fetus incompatible with life.

    Dr. Hamada’s response:

    Thank you for your message Dr. Gu. Of course, I agree those are conditions are incompatible with life. The child will need to be delivered regardless. But their lives are not mine to take – especially as a physician.

    Dana (023079)

  127. abortion’s not the be all end all issue its adherents pro or con would have you believe

    It depends who you ask. To a baby in the womb being aborted, you bet it’s an end-all issue. In fact, it is the definitive end-all issue. Literally and figuratively.

    Dana (023079)

  128. . If someone else does, it’s a homicide.
    According to the Bible it can be a tort, at least sometimes.

    Exodus 21:22
    22 “When men strive together, and hurt a woman with child, so that there is a miscarriage, and yet no harm follows, the one who hurt her shall[a] be fined, according as the woman’s husband shall lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine.”
    That’s the RSV, which correctly uses “miscarriage” to translate the Hebrew term “her fruit departs from her”. (Other translations like KJV translate it into “premature birth” which is incorrect. If premature birth was meant, the Bible would have said something like “and she delivered the child before its time”.) Yet no harm follows, according to Scripture, and the only remedy is, in essence, a suit for assault and battery by the husband.

    Kishnevi (bec396)

  129. At the risk of derailing the thread …. Our only salvation might be the “browning of America with immigrants from sh!thole countries” from south of the border and from other places where they still value children. Not Europe (although no European country except Ireland has an abortion law as permissive as Roe v. Wade), and not China. But we’ll need to make them citizens so they can have a voice.

    nk (dbc370)

  130. nobody’s asking fetuses questions though that’s not really a thing

    i will tell you the truth

    the truth is that abortion’s become a hobby for a lot of people, some of whom think it’s the most important and wonderful thing a woman has in her whole life, and other people who think it’s murderous and barbaric

    but it’s a wholly bracketed discussion anymore

    it’s gotten so abstruse and cant-inflected that it’s wholly unrelated to any serious discussion we can have of the proper role of government or even to a discussion about what the contours of a more better more civil society should look like

    it’s one of those issues where you roll your eyes and go oh dear god not this again

    like baby bunnies in fresh-fallen snow my heart slumbers beneath a cold blanket of ennui

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  131. It hasn’t actually solved that problem, like they intended since the 70s.

    Narciso (49b187)

  132. So, both doctors agree that two very specific conditions that are incompatible with life and the baby would no doubt perish. The question becomes, do you let nature takes its course and let the mother deliver the baby, and for whatever length of time there is, the baby can be held and cared for, even if for a fleeting moment, or do you perform a third tri abortion and and then have the mother deliver a dead baby? Will the baby die a less gruesome death if it is allowed to enter the world and then die than having to go through a late-term abortion? Is the baby’s humanity acknowledged by letting it live out it’s pre-ordained time?

    I’m curious about the term “humane indications” and how Dr. Gu intends for it to be interpreted. Is it a humane indicator in that it is a forewarning, so act accordingly (that an abortion is the humane way to end baby’s life)?

    Here is info about bilateral renal agenesis in an unborn baby:

    When both kidneys are absent this condition is not compatible with life. 40% of babies with bilateral renal agenesis will be stillborn, and if born alive, the baby will live only a few hours.

    Here is info on fetal anencepahly:

    Anencephaly is a defect in the formation of a baby’s neural tube during development. A baby born with anencephaly might be stillborn or survive only a few hours to a few days after birth. The main symptom is unconsciousness. There is no cure for anencephaly. Treatment aims at making the baby as comfortable as possible.

    Dana (023079)

  133. like baby bunnies in fresh-fallen snow my heart slumbers beneath a cold blanket of ennui

    At least those baby bunnies in fresh-fallen snow have the luxury of experiencing the cold snow.

    Dana (023079)

  134. I would suspect that the number of fetuses that would be viable babies that are aborted in the 3rd trimester is right around 0, but if there are good numbers out there, it would be interesting to see them. CDC apparently only says 21+ weeks.

    Nic (896fdf)

  135. Well, happyfeet, maybe you can edumacate me, cos I don’t know the why. I can see how a couple of goombahs like Cuomo and Di Blasio might not want ordinary citizens to be able to defend ourselves when their cousins try to shake us down or rob us, but why would they want it to be easy to kill unborn babies?

    nk (dbc370)

  136. And Dana, do you think we can really claim to be a civilized society when those who feel somewhat uncomfortable with killing babies make excuses for those few who do worship at the altar of Moloch

    It is, to use an overused word, more nuanced.

    One can think both that abortion is not a good thing, and should at the very least be strongly discouraged, yet also think that there are cases in which it is necessary or at least desireable for valid medical reasons…and that therefore total bans on abortion are too much, that the decision in that sort of case rests not with state legislatures but with the woman and her doctors.

    And I am not sure Moloch is the proper god to be referenced. The feminists defend abortion because they are convinced that women’s rights are in peril if women can not end a pregnancy at any time they wish. When you point out to them that this means women’s rights must come at the cost of the life of another human (the baby), they simply proclaim that fetuses are not entitled to be thought of as persons. But what pagan deity best encapsulates that I know not. Maybe Hecate…but she was also in her other forms of Selene and Diana a fertility goddess.

    Kishnevi (bec396)

  137. it’s not about making it easy it’s about forestalling legal challenges criminal or otherwise

    it’s about changing the nature of the scrutiny people involved in these decisions receive

    and that’s a useful lens

    we should approach a whole lot more issues in just such a way

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  138. Because they worship gods from the Levant. There’s a new ctluthu mythos dunwich that ties the old ones to Islamic state and other nazguls.

    Narciso (49b187)

  139. Would these other gods say anything different .

    Narciso (49b187)

  140. Dana, Dr Gu is by his Twitter feed very obviously a Democrat.

    But

    Surgeon-scientist trying to save the lives of infants with congenital heart and kidney diseases. Subpoenaed but not silenced by Congress. Sued Trump and won.
    eugenegu@ganogen.orgyoutube.com/c/EugeneGuMDJoined August 2009
    5,406 Following
    244.6K Followers

    I have no idea what he means by being subpoenaed and suing Trump. But I suspect a doctor in his speciality would be averse to leaving a baby to die in a spare basin.

    Kishnevi (bec396)

  141. Killing babies should be hard to do.

    nk (dbc370)

  142. Oh, wait, maybe I gave him too much benefit of the doubt
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eugene_Gu

    Kishnevi (bec396)

  143. it’s already hard someone was saying these late term abortions can be over $10K a piece that’s a lot of pop tarts

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  144. @140. ‘Russia had the highest number of abortions per woman of child-bearing age in the world according to the UN in 2010.’- source, wiki-med

    Is there an ‘abortion gap,’ Mr. Feet?!

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  145. But I suspect a doctor in his speciality would be averse to leaving a baby to die in a spare basin.

    I suspect you’re right, he would want the fetal tissue preserved. He does fetal tissue transplant research. It is “trying to save the lives of infants”, and also helps Planned Parenthood employees buy Lambos.

    nk (dbc370)

  146. abortion isn’t a contest Mr. DCSCA

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  147. nk, me at 143 was written before I checked him out on the Internet. Me at 145 was afterwards. Having checked him out I agree with what you said at 148.

    Kishnevi (bec396)

  148. @149. But it is contested, Mr. Feet.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  149. How about followers of Tulsa doom

    Narciso (49b187)

  150. yes but the contest we want to win is the one where we’re the #1 most free society out of all of them

    and we have some work to do

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  151. @153. More genetic engineers, Mr. Feet; the young nephew is ready to shoot-the-moon!

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  152. the dirty chinesers are gonna eat our lunch at that stuff cause we are too many regulate

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  153. Arthur Rudolph would be so pleased.

    * he managed operations for von braun.

    Narciso (49b187)

  154. Let’s look at it from another perspective: If women are going to kill our babies, what do we want them around for? So they can have us moving couches, hanging pictures, and doing yard work, on a Saturday afternoon when the Cubs have a double-header against the Brewers?

    nk (dbc370)

  155. Well that’s a rhetorical question right, the real one is why do they seem afflicted with medea syndrome

    Narciso (49b187)

  156. why can’t abortion just be one of the great shames of society nobody ever talks about

    we should at least give it a try

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  157. @156. And very well, too; yet always suspicious of bright red tomatoes.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  158. @157. Meatloaf? OTOH, the great chefs of the world are mostly men.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  159. The same for kammler and dornberger

    Narciso (49b187)

  160. @162. They were tame compared to Debus, who ran KSC.

    BTW, Narciso, First Man DVD is selling for $18 at Walmart. Emailed an old colleague in Hollywood and asked why Universal believes a dud few went to at $12/seat will sell as a DVD for $18? She’s still laughing.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  161. 139. I don’t find murder of innocents to be a very nuanced concept. I guess you and I will have to agree to disagree on that. I still “believe” that 2 + 2 = 5 and that, along with some other truths, are pretty immutable.

    Gryph (5efbad)

  162. 135. As to your question, I think that when dealing with moral uncertainty, it is better to not act on a doubt. Think of it like Pascal’s Wager.

    If you treat a fetus like a baby and it is a baby, you are morally correct. If you treat a fetus like a baby and it is not a baby, you are still not morally incorrect, just mistaken. If you treat a fetus inhumanly and it is a baby, then you are morally incorrect. Etc. Etc.

    Always better, when in doubt in moral concerns, not to act on that doubt.

    Gryph (5efbad)

  163. @Gryph
    . I still “believe” that 2 + 2 = 5

    I presume that’s a typo. 😉

    To your main point
    I don’t find murder of innocents to be a very nuanced concept
    1. I don’t think abortion is justified simply because it’s inconvenient for the mother or similar reasons.
    2. There can be cases where not terminating the pregnancy presents a definite danger to the life of the mother, and this can occur at anytime during the pregnancy.

    I know we agree on the first point. I think you agree with the second point.

    My contention is that abortion should not be banned so completely that it is illegal even in the sort of case I outline in point 2.

    Do you agree with that? And if not, why not?

    Kishnevi (5bd7eb)

  164. 166. I don’t. And I don’t agree with that because as I said upthread, I will not act on a doubt.

    Gryph (08c844)

  165. 1. I favor having states determine the extent of legal abortion…however….I fear that that would spell doom for many conservative Republican officeholders in those states — some sort of access to abortion remains popular by a comfortable margin in many states…especially purple ones. We have a lot of heart changing before this becomes practical and sustainable.

    2. What stands in the way of this heart changing? Pragmatics. Simply put, our collective of moralizing old men absorb precisely zero cost by insisting that all women take all babies to term. It’s almost as easy as insisting that all homosexuals remain celibate because God says so. A majority of people are not willing to step up and adopt unplanned babies or financially incentivize women to take their babies to term. Push comes to shove, it is much easier to moralize about these things than it is to put your money where your mouth is….unfortunately. Pregnancies and babies cost money….there are also social costs that can’t be wiped away….these may be very short term costs…but they are real for 18 to 20 year olds…and most women instinctively empathize with this. For any ethical analysis of abortion, one must account for these costs…not simply dismiss them…and put yourself in the financial and emotional position of that college sophomore facing the hardest decision of her life.

    3. Very few abortions are late term….most occur in the first term…..many before brain activity…fewer, but many before a heart beat is registered. For many abortions, the fetus is barely visible. I personally am not persuaded that a fetus becomes more valuable the further it develops but that’s just my moral conclusion….I have to accept that others may draw lines at a heart beat…or sensing pain….or even viability. Yes, we should be frank about the continuity of fetal development and the intrinsic value and dependency on the early stages….but is this the argument that will sway that sophomore’s decision? She wanted sex…not a baby….and life sometimes doesn’t accommodate that. Or are we going to say that 19yr-olds should not have sex…and stay off my lawn….

    AJ_Liberty (165d19)

  166. You’re just making excuses they created a culture by which a grievous sin, the kind that drove mad in the end was normaLized.

    Narciso (78e056)

  167. Now we see why they rsally hated christine o’Donnell in macho grande.

    Narciso (78e056)

  168. Yes they legalized murder of innocents as well

    Narciso (78e056)

  169. 170-172, I’m at a loss at what these posts mean….I’ve lost my descrambler

    AJ_Liberty (165d19)

  170. Abortion was normalized like the murder of innocents was in Roman times, it’s like we’re finding new ways to anger God. Delaware is the latest to normalize atrocity

    Narciso (78e056)

  171. If you will go back to the Commerce Clause cases of the ’30s, you will see that what the Progressives on the Supreme Court wanted more than anything was uniform law across the several states. To avoid “Balkanization” as one of them called it. Because he did not want to call it anti-federalism.

    Now, with abortion, they cannot force the states to enact abortion laws. What they can do, with the creation of a Fifth, Ninth and Fourteenth Amendment smorgasbord of “rights” from which they can pick and choose, is restrict the states to a certain range of laws which regulate abortion. In a way, the baby-killing gooombahs in New York are throwing a monkey wrench into the anti-federalist agenda by going all the way to the edge.

    nk (dbc370)

  172. 169. The problem with using “viability” as a criterion for abortion is that its definition has changed over the years and depends heavily on what means are available for treatment of a pre-term birth. It has no practical application in determining when a human life begins; only conception does.

    Gryph (08c844)

  173. This is evil.

    jason stewart (f8653f)

  174. “its definition has changed over the years and depends heavily on what means are available for treatment of a pre-term birth”

    Agreed, but considerable scientific discovery is required to get us below 20 weeks…I think the hard limit is imposed by lung development. Personhood requires a value judgment….so we can count a fetus as a separate victim in vehicular manslaughter….but the situation for the prosecutor gets more complicated if the mother was driving to have an abortion. I look at conception as the magic marker as well….but other people may disagree and value abortion as backup contraception. I disagree…but I don’t have to carry the baby, pay for the delivery, or navigate the adoption process or motherhood. that just makes it an easier moral call for me.

    AJ_Liberty (3c84de)

  175. 178. No, lung development is not a hard limit. It was thought to be until researchers figured out a way to mimic the consistency of amniotic fluid. Not many hospitals are using it as a therapeutic tool yet, but in every instance of pre-20 week birth in which liquid ventilation has been used, outcomes have been consistently better than when it hasn’t been.

    https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2006/04/060414015051.htm

    Fun fact: Stevie Wonder lost his eyesight because, after being prematurely born, his underdeveloped lungs were exposed to too much oxygen which damaged his optical nerves.

    Gryph (5efbad)

  176. And by the by, in that Science Daily article that I linked in my last post, at the very end like an afterthought, it explains why liquid ventilation isn’t used more extensively in the medical industry:

    The required chemicals have no other industrial application. There’s no profit in it.

    SMDH.

    Gryph (5efbad)

  177. Gryph (5efbad) — 1/26/2019 @ 12:48 pm

    Fun fact: Stevie Wonder lost his eyesight because, after being prematurely born, his underdeveloped lungs were exposed to too much oxygen which damaged his optical nerves.

    This was something they later realized was a mistake. Too much oxygen can be harmful.

    I assume it’s the level in the blood.

    This story shows yet another problem with drug development. The really bad thing is not enough people realze that the entire drug developpment process is broken. We don’t have to wait for “Medicare for All”

    If this had been discovered 60 years ago, it would be on the market.

    We even have problems with generics long on the market. There’s too much quality regulation. It focuses only on what companies can do, not how things can get done.

    Yes, many new medical developments get started only in the United States, but even in the United States many things do not get started, or take far too long or get developed with unnecessary twists so they can be patented.

    Sammy Finkelman (102c75)

  178. 181. I can not stress enough: If “viability,” whatever the **** that means, is one’s criteria for determining when abortion can take place, prenatal liquid ventilation has been proven many times over — and for years — to be effective in replacing the amniotic sac environment which allows a baby’s lungs to develop further. It’s not being used because there’s simply no money in it. Hence, one might reasonably believe that abortionists are in it for the money.

    Gryph (08c844)

  179. 175 nk (dbc370) — 1/26/2019 @ 7:27 am

    In a way, the baby-killing gooombahs in New York are throwing a monkey wrench into the anti-federalist agenda by going all the way to the edge.

    Itw as promoted by Governor Cuomo and otehrs, as updating New York State abortion law (because it was not as liberal as Roe v Wade, which wass supposedly in danger of being reversed)

    And this is wrong because even reversal of Re v Wade wouldn’t put back into effect all states decades-old abortion laws – this didn’t happen with capital punishment.

    But theyw anted an issue.

    And here I think we also had Governor Cuomo’s desidre for New York State to be the “leader” It was the leader, or a leader, in same sex-marriage and he wants it to be the leader in general in what I guess they can call progressive causes in everything. Governor Andrew Cuomo wants to be able to boast about it. Saying things like New York had [some predecessor legislation to the New Deal] and now it raised the minimum wage higher than any state (or at least as high) and also it was a leader in gay marriage and etc..

    So, instead of just codifying Roe v Wade, they went beyond it, to show how superbly “good” New York State was on abortion women’s rights. Then they celebrated, or somebody arranged for it.

    https://www.rushlimbaugh.com/daily/2019/01/24/what-makes-liberals-cheer-murder/
    t

    Sammy Finkelman (102c75)

  180. 183. This has bothered me for a long time, Sammy. If states can pass laws encouraging abortion, how come they can’t pass laws discouraging it? Sauce for the goose, right?

    Gryph (08c844)

  181. Gryph (08c844) — 1/28/2019 @ 11:05 am

    If states can pass laws encouraging abortion, how come they can’t pass laws discouraging it? Sauce for the goose, right?

    They actually probably can pass laws discouraging abortion (but not too much) under current United States Supreme Court precedent. But, according to some Democrats, that’s evil.

    Sammy Finkelman (102c75)


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