Patterico's Pontifications

10/23/2018

Condemn Them All: Nothing Justifies Political Acts Of Violence On Either Side Of The Aisle

Filed under: General — Dana @ 10:03 am



[guest post by Dana]

Two ugly acts of violence are in the news.

The first story involves billionaire philanthropist George Soros (or, as the WaPo unsurprisingly frames it: Explosive device found at residence of George Soros, liberal philanthropist and target of far right):

A pipe-bomb-like device loaded with black powder was found at the suburban New York City home of billionaire financier George Soros, prompting the FBI to launch an investigation into who would want to harm the philanthropist and political activist, a law enforcement source told ABC News on Tuesday.

The FBI detonated the device near Soros’ home in Katonah, New York, and were analyzing the parts to determine whether the bomb was built to go off, the source said.

The source emphasized that the device was no hoax.

The bomb was found about 3:45 p.m. Monday in the mailbox of Soros’ home by a property caretaker for the billionaire, the source said.

“An employee of the residence opened the package, revealing what appeared to be an explosive device,” said Bedford police, which sent officers to the residence, in a statement.

The caretaker placed the suspicious package in a wooded area and called the police, officials said.

No determination has been made whether the device arrived by mail or was planted in the mailbox, and there is no suspect yet.

The second report concerns Rep. Kevin McCarthy (R-Calif.):

Two men apparently attacked the Bakersfield office of House Majority Leader Kevin McCarthy, R-Calif., on Monday night, throwing a massive rock through one of its windows and burglarizing office equipment inside.

McCarthy posted four photographs documenting the alleged episode on Instagram — three showing the individuals he identified as possible suspects, and one providing a clear view of a massive slab of rock lying on the floor amid shattered glass.

“Does anyone know these two guys?” McCarthy wrote on the social media site, next to images of two people spotted near his office.

The Bakersfield Police Department did not comment on the alleged incident when reached by Fox News and said it would have more information on Tuesday.

McCarthy, like several other congressional Republicans, has faced threats and harassment in the past several weeks. In August, protesters in Sacramento chanting “No justice, no peace” disrupted McCarthy’s event at the Public Policy Institute of California.

This x 1000:

“There’s no way somebody on my ideological side would plant a bomb in Soros mailbox/break a window and steal things from McCarthy’s office! It must be an elaborate hoax!” Do you realize how crazy you sound?

Angry individuals and mobs willing to do harm to political opponents exist on both sides of the aisle. We’ve all seen the results of their havoc. Sadly, if you read the comments at the links above, it’s obvious that assigning blame takes a front-seat to simple, full-throated condemnation of anyone from any side of the aisle committing any sort of violence. This “whataboutism” and “but they…” is becoming little more than a twisted game of one-upmanship. Bad enough coming from private citizens, but far more foul coming from sleazy politicians exploiting such events for their own sordid political gain.

It is both equally possible to loathe an individual and criticize their politics as destructive, yet condemn anyone who would seek to do them harm.

(Cross-posted at The Jury Talks Back.)

–Dana

198 Responses to “Condemn Them All: Nothing Justifies Political Acts Of Violence On Either Side Of The Aisle”

  1. At this rate, by the time the campaign for 2020 rolls around in earnest, will there be a serious uptick in political violence and will it continue to polarize Americans, or will there be a tipping point where equal condemnation and push back from both sides of the aisle becomes the norm? Political warfare is nothing new, of course, but it seems the parameters of what people are labeling as justified are being pushed.

    Dana (023079)

  2. Yep. This shouldn’t be complicated.

    M Scott Eiland (b16b32)

  3. You missed a few. In addition to justification and whataboutism:

    1). I don’t trust the source; planting a bomb in Soros mailbox/breaking a window and steal things from McCarthy’s office probably didn’t happen.

    2). It’s a false flag attack. The other side was probably planting a bomb in Soros mailbox/breaking a window and steal things from McCarthy’s office to make my side look bad.

    3). If someone did plant a bomb in Soros mailbox/break a window and steal things from McCarthy’s office there’s no proof it’s because they’re on my side. I need a detailed report from a hard core partisan I agree with before I can believe that. Probably Deep State FBI(TM). (bet you happyfeet says something sexual and insulting about the FBI in this string)

    4). If it did happen it’s just a fringe nut job.

    5). Can you imagine if planting a bomb in Soros mailbox/breaking a window and steal things from McCarthy’s office had happened out our side? It would be front page of the NYT for the rest of the year / the only thing Fox and Friends would talk about. We should talk about that hypothetical.

    Time123 (457a1d)

  4. Dana, it’s clear that by 2020 both sides will be lying to exaggerate the negative behaviors of their political opponents as a tool to motivate their base through fear. I’m really scared about what a left wing trump (or a more competent right wing version) will be able to accomplish.

    We’re seeing the outline of it now.

    Time123 (457a1d)

  5. Dana, it is always wrong. Full stop.

    I’m sad that I am no doubt going to see some temporizing here in this thread.

    Simon Jester (c8876d)

  6. why would anybody wanna blow up a mailbox

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  7. I don’t see the violence abating from either side. For those of us who consider our opponents opponents and not enemies, we should call the out the violence wherever we see it (well done, Dana) and urge law enforcement to prosecute the perpetrators to the full extent of the law.

    Paul Montagu (7b9e3b)

  8. Rand Paul tweets the Soros thing is wrong, very wrong. His post is swarmed by angry lefties saying its his fault and his language about the left trending to violence that this happens.

    People try to explain that he missed getting shot by the baseball game lunatic, and did get beat up by the neighbor lunatic over politics, so he’s to reason to say that, jeepers, the left seems to be trending towards violence.

    More bitter twitter — I mean, that stuff that happened to R. Paul, it was a neighbor dispute and he wasn’t really in danger of being shot.

    There is an awful lot of deranged out there. And a refusal to accept that it exists among the tribe of right and justice (whichever tribe that might be for you).

    Appalled (96665e)

  9. There are crazies on both sides but just looking at Occupy and The Resistance, college campuses etc. please don’t tell me the numbers are anywhere near equal between left and right, as the lefties and media (same thing really) try to frame it.

    That being said it must always be condemned.

    harkin (e2dce3)

  10. So if war can be just, how does this tom foolery compare?

    Bob the Builder (9af831)

  11. I adopt and associate myself with Dana’s observations and prescriptions: Well put, Dana.

    @ Bob the Builder, who asked (#10):

    So if war can be just, how does this tom foolery compare?

    It doesn’t; you shouldn’t try to; and please don’t defend violent criminals, if you’re inclined to do that here.

    Beldar (fa637a)

  12. Fate that awaits NeverTrump… https://youtu.be/g2ah2mwo1oM

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  13. Violence is seldom the answer to anything.

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  14. #6 Exactly.

    Bob the Builder (9af831)

  15. Agreed. Although I note with some scorn and amusement that while Chuck Schumer and Democrats condemned both attacks; that didn’t stop them from labeling the shooter of Gabby Giffords as a conservative when he was a schizo nutbag. In my opinion, media and Democrats will use these casual smears to decry partisan violence against them. They’ll immediately condemn an attack against a conservative/Republican, but you will almost never see a Democrat on the news being asked constantly to denounce previous bad behavior by a fellow Democrat like Republicans are with Trump or other Republicans. It’s like the immediate condemnation immediately immunizes them forever against ever having to say something negative about the previous assholery or current assholery done by their side. We have to wear the eternal hairshirt in the eyes of the media.

    CygnusAnalogMan (9c66ec)

  16. Beldar,

    Again, if war can be just, how does this compare?

    You are being an NPC. I ask a legit question.

    At what point is violence justified?

    Bob the Builder (9af831)

  17. More serious men in more serious times asked more serious questions and seemed more engaged in more serious discussions — so my little one is perfectly valid even in not the 18th Century.

    So, curious the response.

    Bob the Builder (9af831)

  18. the important thing is nobody was hurt

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  19. harkin:

    The problem on the right, I hate to say, is mostly with the President and his rhetoric. (Enemy of the people, the heh heh about beating up a reporter.)

    On the left — there is a long history of political violence for the current members to draw on, and I think they are. Trump being Trump gives the lefties an excuse, but W incited them before, and Reagan incited them before, and LBJ in…oh, yeah, he was a Democrat…

    Appalled (96665e)

  20. @17 peruse the vast legal tracts on just war theory and you might see how different these acts and the act of declaring and carrying out a legal war are. Both of these acts are essentially mob action with no legal justification.

    CygnusAnalogMan (9c66ec)

  21. Let me give you a hint, Bob: If it involves a mail bomb, it’s never justified. It’s a crime, and a cowardly one at that.

    This concludes our discussion, as there’s nothing more that I can say to you, or about your comment, that wouldn’t run afoul of our new posting guidelines.

    Beldar (fa637a)

  22. We seem to have no issue droning American Citizens in the name of “terrorism.”

    We have no issue killing babies under the guise of women’s right to choose.

    So, some crazies doing crazy is bad got it but why is that if the Elitists (ad their Lawyers) say it is OK it is OK to reap violence?

    Just bizarre.

    Used to be the Priests started the wars in the name of God, now it is our Legal Class in the name of “justice.”

    Just wondering since we are all sorts of to be upset over Khashoggi the Bear and some mental MD kicking Paul’s arse.

    Bob the Builder (9af831)

  23. I think it’s worth remembering that in many cases, the decision to cross the line from verbal hostility to physical violence is a product of pre-existing damage that is only tangentially related to the politics involved. James Hodgkinson should not be held against the Left any more than Jared Lee Loughner should be held against the Right.

    It is true that the Left has made much more of a show of violence in its various protests and riots, but the vandalization of Rep. McCarthy’s office is characteristic of the modern Left’s preference for inflicting property damage rather than personal injury for the most part. (Ironically, I am half inclined to believe the pipe bomb in Soros’ mailbox to be a “false flag” operation by the Left simply because my rather viciously snarky instinct is to think, “If someone on the Right had done that and meant to do that, it would have worked.”) Historically, the Left generally only succeeds in taking power through organized violence when the government or society has already broken down to such an extent that the army has either disintegrated or is willing to get behind them (cf. France 1789, Russia 1917).

    Condemning those who commit, promote or condone violence against civic political opponents must be done. But it’s a very easy rhetorical trick to use the evil acts of a few who support an opposing cause to discredit the cause in general, and not letting the Left get away with it may be just as important as not indulging in it ourselves.

    Stephen J. (f77922)

  24. Calling me an “NPC” is surely the best joke I’ve heard today, though. (Not consistent with the blog’s new policies, but perhaps our host has a “parody” exception: No one could possibly mistake me for a dozen lines of computer code comprising three or four predetermined and limited responses to every input. Terse, I am not.

    Beldar (fa637a)

  25. Beldar,

    Is a drone putting a bomb to kill as US Citizen bad?

    We can all agree bombs have bad intentions.

    I just don’t get the outrage when some use violence without due process as opposed to others.

    Bob the Builder (9af831)

  26. #23 OK. I see the the logic. Thanks.

    Bob the Builder (9af831)

  27. #24 Your response that violence is always a no-no is a standard NPC type response.

    I am asking you to flesh out your thinking beyond the standard wisdom / bromide.

    I await your response since you are a well thought person normally.

    So for example, are South African Farmers justified if they arm themselves and get rough with the Govt and the covetous citizenry?

    Bob the Builder (9af831)

  28. @ Bob the Builder – while I don’t agree with Obama on a whole slew of issues, the killing of Awlaki is justified in my opinion because of his incitement of violence against the US, which is treason and punishable by death. Sure, I would have loved to see him captured, brought to the US, tried and executed according to law. But, there were sufficient extenuating circumstances that justified the use of force.

    CygnusAnalogMan (9c66ec)

  29. #27: “So for example, are South African Farmers justified if they arm themselves and get rough with the Govt and the covetous citizenry?”

    Well, here’s an attempt to draw a distinction: If this refers to them openly declaring rebellion, taking up arms and fighting hostile forces under a publicly declared banner, I’d say yes. I think the current government has crossed the line into tyrannical injustice.

    If this refers to them planting bombs in government buildings either as payback for confiscation or as pre-emption of it, bombs which stand a high chance of killing innocent civilians, I’d have to say no, not until the government gets even worse (like concentration camp/torture worse).

    One of the criteria of just war is that violence must always be proportional, appropriately targeted, and adopted only if there is a reasonable chance of it accomplishing its goal where no other option will suffice and the goal cannot be forgone.

    Stephen J. (f77922)

  30. @ Stephen J. – little bit of a nitpick with your reasoning that the Scalise shooting shouldn’t be held against the Left – He went to that ballfield with the deliberate intent of killing Republicans because of their opposition to healthcare, etc. Loughner was a conspiracy nut with a personal ax to grind against Giffords because of a personal interaction he had with her prior to the shooting and his feelings that women shouldn’t hold political office. In other words, Hodgkinson’s targets and justification in his mind was made based on explicit left-wing ideology, much like Timothy McVeigh chose to target the Federal building in Oklahoma City because of his right-wing anti-government views.

    CygnusAnalogMan (9c66ec)

  31. why’s everybody assuming the mailbox bomb was a political thing

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  32. The fish rots from the head down. And then there’s Trump Steaks. When your CiC’s campaign echoes popping ‘people on Fifth Avenue and not losing any supporters’ or embraces ‘rally rage’ and offers to ‘pay any legal fees’ post dust-ups, etc., etc., and you have a foxy cabler fanning the coals and making a buck serving it up, don’t be surprised at a toxic atmosphere or a few slabs of beef getting burned.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  33. @31. Doubt it was a FedEx promotion, Mr. Feet.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  34. i wouldn’t jump to conclusions i bet lots of people don’t like him up to and including close family members

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  35. As the gravy train keeps heading north.

    mg (a05430)

  36. “[Hodgkinson] went to that ballfield with the deliberate intent of killing Republicans because of their opposition to healthcare, etc.”

    True, but if you look into Hodgkinson’s personal history, you find a man of (to be diplomatic) limited reason and social functionality, with a history of domestic violence and careless firearm use, who had been living out of his van for six weeks prior to the attack. We will never know for certain because he died that day, but it strikes me as a reasonable possibility that he simply had undiagnosed mental disorders which, combined with the stresses of a disintegrating life, would have pushed him into violence against somebody. Certainly no rational analysis of his planned actions could have suggested that they would accomplish anything useful to his proclaimed agenda, which is a big part of a morally sane perspective.

    That there is a difference between the Left and the Right about how justifiable political violence can be, in principle, is certain. But most Leftists I see in the public eye have a real disinclination these days to do anything that might get people to shoot back. Which is part of the reason I think general violence is less imminent than many fear.

    Stephen J. (f77922)

  37. “The fish rots from the head down.”

    Yes, you’ve nailed the reason why in the years 2009 thru the end of 2016, the White House smelled like 1960s Salton Sea during a prolonged heatwave.

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  38. 34-feets, well it could also be the right-hand side of that ledger e.g. the Blue Dogs leftward until Crowley and perhaps one other famous Hudson Valley neighbor who wants a do-ever and doesnt need a Dodge Caravan barreling down the driveway.

    urbanleftbehind (5eecdb)

  39. ..do-over..

    urbanleftbehind (5eecdb)

  40. @37. More evidence of global warming.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  41. yes yes plus neurotic leftists are FAMOUS for doing hate crimes on themselves

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  42. #28 @ Bob the Builder – while I don’t agree with Obama on a whole slew of issues, the killing of Awlaki is justified in my opinion because of his incitement of violence against the US, which is treason and punishable by death. Sure, I would have loved to see him captured, brought to the US, tried and executed according to law. But, there were sufficient extenuating circumstances that justified the use of force.

    So when Eric Holder incites violence or Obama …. what then? Lord knows they move tons of $$$$$ into Groups that promote and execute violent means. Like confronting politicians and assaulting them.

    For the record, I am not a person who thinks violence is a “last resort.” I consider that a bromide for children. Each case requires nuance and violence is required to maintain order. You seek to minimize it but that also depends on the counter party in the transaction and their ability to reason..

    Bob the Builder (9af831)

  43. Summary of DCSA position — Trump started political violence with his crude jokes.

    Past 50,000 years of human history are wiped from memory.

    Bob the Builder (9af831)

  44. But sometimes threats of violence serve a purpose… https://twitter.com/bennyjohnson/status/1053045107191095297

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  45. Happy,

    That was no bomb. It was a playdoo gag set up by some OFA junkie to get sympathy.

    There is not one Republican living in Westchester County or surrounding that has the time or energy for that gag.

    Gotta work hard to pay the $20K property taxes so all the POC can school for free.

    It is a false flag much like all the sarin gas nonsense in Syria, just less lethal.

    Bob the Builder (9af831)

  46. #44 But sometimes threats of violence serve a purpose…

    Political Islam knows this.

    Violence works.

    Look at all the cucks in Western Europe.

    Anymore Muhammed cartoons?

    Bob the Builder (9af831)

  47. i tend to agree Mr. Bob but we’ll never know cause the sleazy corrupt FBI’s involved now and you can’t trust anything they say

    they lie about everything

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  48. @43. In summary, that’s an inaccurate assertion. And given the comment rules, will leave it at that. Do have yourself a pleasant evening.

    Catch the ball game.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  49. What do you know. Happyfeet fulfilled my prediction about what he would comment.

    Time123 (52fb0e)

  50. And Bob the Builder hit the false flag one. Bonus points for being racist in the same comment.

    Time123 (52fb0e)

  51. Well you have nelson madela whose violent acts could nit label him a prisoner of conscience, how about robert Williams, he tried to set up a rifle club to defend his naacp chapter.

    narciso (d1f714)

  52. i fulfilled it!

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  53. 19 – Appalled.

    Don’t really see what your response has to do with the current numbers of incidents of violence being much higher on the left.

    Trump being Trump is convenient but they were shutting down free speech, committing violent acts and trashing public spaces before he entered politics.

    harkin (e2dce3)

  54. Bombs in mailboxes are very cowardly things. Yellow dog cowardly. The guy who did it would probably let his hair grow long and comb it over with hairspray to hide his bald spot, too.

    nk (dbc370)

  55. The tragedy would be if we were to let the actions of a few cowardly mailbox bombers empower those who would point to such acts as a reason for people to stifle free speech (like we see happening on our burgeoningly fascist social media platforms for example facebook) and who would like nothing more than to cajole people into toning down their rhetoric.

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  56. so there’s not a camera on soros’s mailbox?

    i would think there would be a camera

    so you’d have to wear a burka of some kind what you didn’t mind throwing out after you were done – probably burning it would be best

    and you’d have to make sure your car didn’t get into the video

    i wonder if those fbi jackoffs have thought to look at the camera recordings

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  57. In other news, water is wet. The sun will rise tomorrow, some say.

    Please, Dana, take no personal offense. I do not for a nanosecond doubt your sincerity, nor the correctness of your thesis. Violence is always unacceptable, except in legitimate self-defense. Full stop.

    I believe columns like this one give far too much comfort to the side which is demonstrably in the wrong and who has been documented to adopt such radicalism. Saul Alinsky’s influence is very real and this influence is overwhelmingly within the Democratic Party.

    I fully grant that many Trump supporters are especially vulnerable to a cultist leader. Gen. McChrystal’s new book on Leadership warns, generically, against such a thing. The reality today is that it is the Left who have sown the fields of hatred and have consciously engaged in actual assaults and batteries.

    This is where the focus ought to be at this time. This truth is the one that must be repeated NOW. This truth is the one resulting in the overwhelming number of actual injuries NOW. This is the truth that can enervate the silent and peaceful majority, thereby resulting in saving the USA from an outrageously divisive Congress and polity.

    The Left has thrived in its use of relativism these past few decades. It’s quite insidious. I urge you, Dana, and all who may wish to spend time and energy on societal ills, to concentrate on the overwhelming evils of Progressivism and its successful usurpation of the Democratic party. We simply MUST get to the ignorant voters and prove this horribly rotten connection.

    To emphasize in closing…I abhor and reject all violence outside of the use of force for self- protection. I admire you, Dana. My difference(s) on this occasion, as best I can discern, is one of emphasis and timing. God bless us all.

    Ed from SFV (6d42fa)

  58. “The guy who did it would probably let his hair grow long and comb it over with hairspray to hide his bald spot, too.”

    https://goo.gl/images/FJGyki

    No way!

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  59. Violence is always unacceptable, except in legitimate self-defense. Full stop.

    What if there were one night a year though where violence wasn’t just acceptable but actually encouraged and celebrated. We could have camera crews film parts of it and use the footage to explore broad themes of social justice and consumerism and pragmatism and gentrification, all through a darkly comedic lens.

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  60. Ernie McCracken?

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  61. I read mccrystals memoir, and I was struck at how naïve he was about certain things, he expected they would do right, well the inspector general’s report did eventually absolve him, but Michael hastings narrative continued into that ridiculous film with brad pitt,

    as to the main point, the left’s propensity for violence, suggests if the 60s and early 70s aren’t exactly repeating, it does rhyme, now there were some groups like the secret army organization, which I believe mostly active in California, that had right wing militancy, and there were incidents in my hometown, as with certain other enclave communities of anti communist bent

    narciso (d1f714)

  62. We could have camera crews film parts of it and use the footage to explore broad themes of social justice and consumerism and pragmatism and gentrification, all through a darkly comedic lens.

    The camera crews would, of course, be the most sought-after targets, but I suppose that’s by design…

    Dave (83748d)

  63. @59. Submit to the will of Landru; that would be a neat Trek, eh, Mr. Feet.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  64. Nein! Noch nie! Gewalt gegen die Bevölkerung ist das alleinige Vorrecht des Staates.

    — nk (Obersthasenpfefferesser, Ret.)

    nk (dbc370)

  65. he’s talking about the purge, where this one night of walpurgisnacht, keeps the piece for the year dubious,

    so as long as the left says net neutrality repeal, the tax cut, judge Cavanaugh, skydragons will cost millions of lives, well some will be tempted, and eventually there will be a fatality, that’s what Kerry’s winter soldier project was aiming for,

    narciso (d1f714)

  66. if you recall this exercise, it was an outgrowth of Kerry’s wholesale defamation of the us serviceman and woman and Vietnam, where some of the ‘witnesses’ who were party to say dewey canyon in laos, planned more direct action, against supporters of the war, like sen. Stennis, Kerry supposedly left before the conversation got to that point, the author who uncovered the project Gerald Nicosia, curiously had his records stolen,

    narciso (d1f714)

  67. Ed from SV,

    Thank you for such a thoughtful comment, and I am most certainly not offended by it. Why would I be? It poses some seriously considered questions. And it is a great example of how to meet Patterico’s standard of commenting, including vigorous debate without personal insult.

    With that, I’ll try to respond in an equally thoughtful manner.

    I believe columns like this one give far too much comfort to the side which is demonstrably in the wrong and who has been documented to adopt such radicalism. Saul Alinsky’s influence is very real and this influence is overwhelmingly within the Democratic Party.

    I understand where you’re coming from. I agree that the Left has a longer track record of documented violence, and is guilty of using nastier political tactics to take down their political opponents than does the right side of the aisle. While I believe that to be true, I still don’t believe that we should be measuring these occurrences on a tit-for-tat scale. I think individual acts of violence stand on their own, and each act needs to be specifically identified, reported and condemned. In all honesty, I don’t think the Left is the least bit concerned with any outrage center-right bloggers might have because even if there was (and there is!) a collective outrage. They are not going to change tactics. It’s not even blip on their radar, because as you say, they are following Alinsky’s playbook. The question I guess becomes one of, what is the most productive way to counteract this?

    I fully grant that many Trump supporters are especially vulnerable to a cultist leader. Gen. McChrystal’s new book on Leadership warns, generically, against such a thing. The reality today is that it is the Left who have sown the fields of hatred and have consciously engaged in actual assaults and batteries.

    I think that the mere fact that many of the Trump supporters willfully blind themselves to his corruption, dishonesty, outright lies and applaud his strongman antics as they believe it shows real leadership is proof enough that they have that vulnerability of which you speak. While the left certainly has been hateful and their willful actions have demonstrated this, we simply cannot ignore aggression and anger on those feeling disenfranchised on the right, and now feel emboldened by this president to act upon those feelings. You and I have read the reports on Trump rallies, supporters who have behaved badly toward those not in lockstep and the fringe dwellers like the white nationalists or Proud Boys.

    This is where the focus ought to be at this time. This truth is the one that must be repeated NOW. This truth is the one resulting in the overwhelming number of actual injuries NOW. This is the truth that can enervate the silent and peaceful majority, thereby resulting in saving the USA from an outrageously divisive Congress and polity.

    I try to post as much as I can about such things, Ed, but I have to say, with the increase of occurrences, it’s really hard to keep up. I think Breitbart, however, has kept a running record. And I don’t actually believe the silent and peaceful majority is that. I can’t think of time when the right side of the aisle has pushed back more fiercely against the left, nor been more vocal and pro-active in pointing out the political violence of the left. Because Big Media is so complicit with the Democrats, I think it just seems like we aren’t making that much noise. Perhaps our platform is more limited as a result.

    The Left has thrived in its use of relativism these past few decades. It’s quite insidious. I urge you, Dana, and all who may wish to spend time and energy on societal ills, to concentrate on the overwhelming evils of Progressivism and its successful usurpation of the Democratic party. We simply MUST get to the ignorant voters and prove this horribly rotten connection.

    I don’t disagree with any of this. I just try to keep on keeping on and speaking out when I am able.

    To emphasize in closing…I abhor and reject all violence outside of the use of force for self- protection. I admire you, Dana. My difference(s) on this occasion, as best I can discern, is one of emphasis and timing. God bless us all.

    Thanks, Ed, for taking the time to express yourself. I will be thinking about your suggestions long after this post is a dead thread.

    Dana (023079)

  68. These particular acts of violence or attempted violence were cowardly and wrong.

    The problem though with an absolutist condemnation of violence is that for most people sometimes violence is justified even if it’s not for classic self-defense, and the issue becomes deciding where to draw the line. I’m guessing that a majority would probably say, for example, Stauffenberg was justified in trying to blow up Hitler in 1944 while a smaller number would say John Brown was justified in attacking Harper’s Ferry. There are plenty on this list who no doubt could make some really informed and nuanced arguments about things like that.

    But regardless of where that line may be, IMHO mailbox bombing and storefront burglaries are way on the wrong side of it and hopefully things in the US never get anywhere close to where violence like that becomes acceptable.

    RL formerly in Glendale (40f5aa)

  69. There’s no need for the “we need to condemn both sides”.

    We have no idea, who was responsible for the Soros “Bomb”. The man has enemies all over the world and is disliked by Right, Left, and Center. Some were victims of his financial shenanigans and he has quite a few disgruntled employees. BTW, even the dimmest dimwit must know that Soros has houses all over the world, has employees who open his mail, and the chances of Soros being injured by mail-bomb are zero. Soros isn’t like Grandpa who leaves his porch every morning and checks the mailbox.

    OTOH, the boulder through the Republican’s window is just the latest in series of attacks/vandalism by Antifa and other deranged Leftists. As Hillary stated, we can have no “civility” till the Democrats are back in power.

    rcocean (1a839e)

  70. I was surprised that David French had *two* Tweets about the Soros Bomb. Evidently, he quite concerned about George.

    Could there be a David French – George Soros financial connection?

    rcocean (1a839e)

  71. Stauffenberg was justified in trying to blow up Hitler in 1944 while a smaller number would say John Brown was justified in attacking Harper’s Ferry.

    What a ridiculous coupling, Stauffenberg was a German officer trying to kill an evil dictator, and then – with the other officers – negotiate an end to WW 2. His failure to assassinate Hitler, literally delayed VE day for months, and resulted in the deaths of hundreds of thousands of people.

    John Brown was a fanatic and crackpot ten-cent terrorist, whose plan to start an armed slave rebellion NEVER had a chance to succeed. He accomplished nothing, except killing himself and a dozen innocent people.

    rcocean (1a839e)

  72. Dana – Thank you.

    The question I guess becomes one of, what is the most productive way to counteract this?

    This was, I hope, the essence of my energy. We are in a metaphysical war with the Left until the election is over. Not November 6th, but when the final settlement of all elected positions occurs. We are in for some unreal lawsuits and judicial corruptions. If the GOP somehow retains the House, I seriously doubt a sufficient number of elected GOP Representatives will be seated in time to open the new Congress.

    I truly believe with all my soul that we face a binary choice in these moments until electoral resolution. We either fully support some necessary evils, as so many did in voting for DJT in 2016 (I did not and I acknowledge my hypocrisy this year), or we are a part, largely unwitting to be sure, of some conspicuously evil results. Chairperson Maxine?! Chairman Schiff????!!!!! Speaker…

    You’ve been nothing short of brilliant with your posts, Dana. I’m pretty sure your overall best guesses as to how to best fight the good fight are more wise than mine. Please never stop.

    Ed from SFV (6d42fa)

  73. John Brown’s attempted insurrection was condemned by Republicans, and rightly so.

    “Old John Brown has been executed for treason against a state. We cannot object, even though he agreed with us in thinking slavery wrong. That cannot excuse violence, bloodshed, and treason. It could avail him nothing that he might think himself right.”
    – Abraham Lincoln

    Dave (9664fc)

  74. And Robert e lee, was the one who brought him in, John brown was just a sympton of the impending crisis, typified by the taney decision, by the loss of any restraint on the slave powers, I think there was a similar incident against the tide foundation they tried to blame Glenn beck for that, because he was pointing out who has been pulling strings creating narratives

    Trump supporters were attacked in mass in San Jose Chicago it al, a cohort of congressman were attacked in Alexandria, a senator in dc (and one recalls the rumor mongering g that went into effect, we have a guillotine podcast (who could find fault with that. Minnesota new York California what do they have in common?

    narciso (d1f714)

  75. For the record, I am not a person who thinks violence is a “last resort.” I consider that a bromide for children. Each case requires nuance and violence is required to maintain order. You seek to minimize it but that also depends on the counter party in the transaction and their ability to reason.

    So noted, for the record, and without surprise.

    This is a frank call for lawlessness. “Nuance,” used in this context, is a shoddy excuse for self-indulgence divorced from morality. Violence is not required to maintain order except in exceptional circumstances, usually as a response to illegal violence, and usually by law enforcement officials, never by would-be vigilantes. No nuance can justify the attempted violence of planting a pipe bomb in a political opponent’s house. And this attempt at justification is disgusting — worthy of specific and serious condemnation.

    Nothing justifies political acts of violence on either side of the aisle, and I condemn them all. I likewise condemn this attempt to justify it.

    If I’m out of bounds with the blog’s civility guidelines, I must beg pardon, since I’m only an NPC.

    Beldar (fa637a)

  76. Might as well be the one you think of:
    https://www.powerlineblog.com/archives/2018/10/trump-uses-the-n-word.php

    narciso (d1f714)

  77. I’m happy that someone planted a bomb for Soros, else Dana would never have found a way to denounce violence from the left. Well done. So brave.

    Like the school teacher who ignores the bully all year until the victim finally punched back. Then she is all “both sides need to…”

    Fen (ffc6db)

  78. Nothing justifies, but it doesn’t mean its not happening and those who sprung.the violence, they don’t seem to be accountable, remember the j 20 anarchist gang, they wetedead to rights, why did they get sprung. If they get punched like ezekiel Moore, their motivation is downplayed.

    narciso (d1f714)

  79. 75. I’d hedge that just a bit, Beldar. There is one thing and one thing only that justifies violence, at least in the eyes of the law: self-defense. That seems to be somewhat beyond the scope of what you and Bob are debating here but I think it’s still worth mentioning. “Violence is never the answer” is indeed a feel-good bromide that always seems to get tossed around before anyone even establishes what the question is.

    Gryph (08c844)

  80. 79. Okay, I apologize. I missed the “political acts of violence” qualifier. And I certainly understand where you are coming.

    Gryph (08c844)

  81. A pipe bomb in self-defense?

    Beldar (fa637a)

  82. 81. Ahem…I did mention that I missed the “political” qualifier in your assertion. While I can see situations in which the need for an act of violence in self-defense may be debatable, I can think of no situation in which I would advocate for the placement of a pipe bomb in self-defense.

    Gryph (08c844)

  83. Beldar: ” no excuse for political violence ”

    Tell it to the men of Concord and Lexington.

    Fen (ffc6db)

  84. Tell it to the men of Concord and Lexington.

    They won’t hear. They’re dead.

    nk (dbc370)

  85. 83. The men of Concord and Lexington didn’t put pipe bombs in redcoats’ mailboxes.

    Gryph (08c844)

  86. Jordon Peterson. If you unilaterally take the threat of violence off the table, you might as well stop wasting everyone’s time and just surrender already.

    At 1:05
    https://youtu.be/dL3Hrwg3A3w

    I know you people. You will write long essays lamenting the fall of the Republic while the rest of us are rounded up with force in the middle of the night.

    Go away from me.

    Fen (ffc6db)

  87. So noted, for the record, and without surprise.

    This is a frank call for lawlessness. “Nuance,” used in this context, is a shoddy excuse for self-indulgence divorced from morality. Violence is not required to maintain order except in exceptional circumstances, usually as a response to illegal violence, and usually by law enforcement officials, never by would-be vigilantes. No nuance can justify the attempted violence of planting a pipe bomb in a political opponent’s house. And this attempt at justification is disgusting — worthy of specific and serious condemnation.

    Nothing justifies political acts of violence on either side of the aisle, and I condemn them all. I likewise condemn this attempt to justify it.

    If I’m out of bounds with the blog’s civility guidelines, I must beg pardon, since I’m only an NPC.

    Beldar (fa637a) — 10/23/2018 @ 7:43 pm

    Agreed. We have full and fair access to the ballot box.

    Dustin (ba94b2)

  88. 86. Don’t look at me, Fen. I have been saying for days that I believe military action is a valid recourse in dealing with the illegal immigration caravans coming our way. That is a view that not many of my fellow commenters seem to share with me.

    I simply believe that putting a pipe bomb in a mailbox of someone whom you happen to politically disagree with is a bridge-and-a-half too far. Just the thought of the possibility of collateral damage, or God forbid the death of an unintended and completely innocent target, makes me cringe.

    Gryph (08c844)

  89. Oh, we still have the threat of violence, Fen. We call it “police” and “prisons”, for cowards who put pipe-bombs into householders’ mailboxes and vandals who break into Congressmen’s offices.

    nk (dbc370)

  90. 89. Indeed. NK raises a very salient point here. For better or for worse, it is government that has a monopoly on the legitimate use of force. Even in cases of self-defense, it is left to our police and court systems to decide if that self-defense is/was legitimate.

    Gryph (08c844)

  91. Diplomacy only works when its backstopped by the threat of violence.

    https://youtu.be/1Z7HxDB9kLU

    That’s the only reason people who hate each other sit down and negotiate nonviolent solutions – because the alternative is worse.

    But you knew that. You’re just virtue signaling. Is this site part of Bi Kristol’s NeverTrump Cuck cruise line? Because the smell of failure theater us ripe in the air.

    Fen (ffc6db)

  92. Bless your heart, Fen!

    nk (dbc370)

  93. Nk: “we still have – ”

    Then explain bicycle lock thug. Four counts of felony assault, slap on the wrist with 3 years probation. Not a day served in jail.

    “The felony charges against him were dismissed, and an allegation that he had caused serious bodily injury was stricken. A misdemeanor charge that Clanton wore a mask during the commission of the crime also was dropped.”

    https://www.berkeleyside.com/2018/08/08/eric-clanton-takes-3-year-probation-deal-in-berkeley-rally-bike-lock-assault-case

    Fen (ffc6db)

  94. Don’t look at me, Fen. I have been saying for days that I believe military action is a valid recourse in dealing with the illegal immigration caravans coming our way. That is a view that not many of my fellow commenters seem to share with me.

    I simply believe that putting a pipe bomb in a mailbox of someone whom you happen to politically disagree with is a bridge-and-a-half too far. Just the thought of the possibility of collateral damage, or God forbid the death of an unintended and completely innocent target, makes me cringe.

    And you see no conflict in those two things? Military action against a bunch of civilians, including children, can only end in death or injury of those civilians, including the children.

    This is not a military convoy, there is no ROE that would even allow the military to engage the caravan. Then there would be the act of war against Mexico, there’s that too.

    Your whole premise is irrational on its face, and I doubt that you actually believe it either.

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (68437d)

  95. Nk: “bless your heart”

    Don’t be a passive-aggressive little bitch. Be a man say what you mean

    Fen (ffc6db)

  96. I’m happy that someone planted a bomb for Soros, else Dana would never have found a way to denounce violence from the left. Well done. So brave.

    Like the school teacher who ignores the bully all year until the victim finally punched back. Then she is all “both sides need to…”

    Fen (ffc6db) — 10/23/2018 @ 7:46 pm

    Are you new here?

    Dana (023079)

  97. B-Bye Fen…

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (68437d)

  98. >Violence is not required to maintain order except in exceptional circumstances

    A libertarian would say the entire system depends on violence.

    That argument aside, though — I think there are reasonable ways to apply violence, even as a vigilante. Pretty much nobody objects to vigilantes violently pulling a man off of a woman he’s raping, for example.

    But planting a pipe bomb in a mailbox isn’t violence of that sort. It’s something else, something way outside the legitimate moral use of force.

    aphrael (3f0569)

  99. Nk: “bless your heart”

    Don’t be a passive-aggressive little bitch. Be a man say what you mean

    Fen (ffc6db) — 10/23/2018 @ 8:27 pm

    Bless your heart.

    Dustin (ba94b2)

  100. Snorfle.

    nk (dbc370)

  101. But planting a pipe bomb in a mailbox isn’t violence of that sort. It’s something else, something way outside the legitimate moral use of force.

    It’s little-t terrorism.

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (68437d)

  102. Col: “there is no ROE”

    That’s a lie. Or you don’t know what ROEs are or how they are crafted.

    It’s the same ROE that allows the military to use lethal Force against civilians trying to breach a US military base.

    As for “women and children”, you said the same thing about the migrants that rushed into Europe. Do you attribute the spike in gang rapes to women and children?

    Fen (ffc6db)

  103. [T]he smell of failure theater us ripe in the air.”

    Dr. Freud wouldn’t have much problem analyzing that typo.

    Is this site part of Bi Kristol’s NeverTrump Cuck cruise line?

    The site belongs to Patterico. I’m curious to see whether he replies, this being such a clever question.

    Beldar (fa637a)

  104. Ah Dustin identifies as another cuck.

    Typical. You have no argument so you resort to insult.

    Bless your heart.

    Fen (ffc6db)

  105. 94. No I don’t. Every member of that caravan is equally guilty of breaking the law regardless of their age or gender. They are an invasion force and should be treated as such.

    Gryph (08c844)

  106. Also, Beldar, since you are here:

    when last we spoke, right around the time I drifted out of the conversation, you had called me out for saying that _Griswold_ might be threatened by the modern court.

    I don’t remember your reasoning, but I wanted to acknowledge that you’re one of the people that can get me to rethink my position on that.

    I guess where i’m stuck is that _Roe_ was at least in part doctrinally underpinned by _Griswold_ and I don’t see the reasoning that is likely to be used in undoing Roe to be inapplicable to Griswold. So I think doctrinally any overturning of Roe implies overturning Griswold.

    That said, I think it’s a fair point that there’s no effective constituency *anywhere* for a law that would implicate Griswold, and to that extent there’s no risk even if it’s doctrinally implied; and this is the same argument I make to reassure my gay friends that Obergefell probably isn’t threatened, either.

    So I take the point that there’s no risk today. I think social mores may change and there could be a risk in the future, but that’s a weaker case for worry today.

    aphrael (3f0569)

  107. It’s a valid question Beldar. False equivalence. Virtue signaling. Metrosexual insults. Surrender and failure theater. Tone and manner over results. Are you aligned with Bill Kyrstol’s Nevertrumpers or not?

    Fen (ffc6db)

  108. Sounds like this Fen may be on teh fen-fen…

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  109. @ aphrael (#98): We certainly agree that planting a pipe bomb in a mailbox isn’t comparable to pulling a rapist off his victim mid-act. I used the word “vigilante” in the sense of the second listed definition here:

    vigilante
    [vij-uh-lan-tee]
    noun

    1. a member of a vigilance committee.
    2. any person who takes the law into his or her own hands, as by avenging a crime.

    I see that there are other dictionaries and sources that use the word more broadly to include anyone acting in a law enforcement capacity without legal authority, which might fit your good Samaritan bystander, but I didn’t intend that broader meaning in my #75 above.

    Beldar (fa637a)

  110. Whether it would be allowed by the rules binding the military or not, the military shooting a convoy of civilians asking for refugee status would be a political disaster, both domestically and abroad. Trump might be crazy enough to do it, but it would not end well for the US if he did.

    aphrael (3f0569)

  111. Tell it to the men of Concord and Lexington.

    They acted in collective self-defense.

    Hostile soldiers with guns literally marched up to their doors.

    Dave (9664fc)

  112. Hey NK, Eric Clanton. 4 felony counts, assaulting my people with lethal force, 3 years probation. Where is your Rule of Law now?

    (crickets)

    “When the responsible authorities fail to act, other forms of authority will assert themselves. They may not behave responsibly, but they WILL act” – Glenn Reynolds

    But go ahead and insult me some more as you run and hide behind the blog site owner. typical.

    Fen (ffc6db)

  113. 110. Given what happened when 10 individuals took over two jet liners and killed over 3000 Americans on our own soil without posessing a single actual weapon, would you prefer something like that to occur again instead? Those 10 individuals were in posession of visas that they had overstayed.

    Gryph (08c844)

  114. You have no argument so you resort to insult.

    Fen (ffc6db) — 10/23/2018 @ 8:36 pm

    Definitely feel sorry for you, but I didn’t insult you this time, Mr. C.

    Dustin (ba94b2)

  115. Fen, the only individual I see on this thread resorting to insults and personal attacks is you.

    Gryph (08c844)

  116. No I don’t. Every member of that caravan is equally guilty of breaking the law regardless of their age or gender. They are an invasion force and should be treated as such.

    Well, there are a couple flaws in that:

    1)They are 1100 miles from the US
    2)They have broken no laws in the US
    3)Even if they climbed the wall that isn’t and danced the lambada, it is not a capital crime.
    4)Illegal border crossings are not an invasion: incursion of an army for conquest or plunder

    Other than those, oh, and the killing of children, and generally morally depraved, it’s a fine idea./sarc

    But I congratulate you on being in for a penny in for a pound. Kill them here or there, they are a threat to be interdicted with the full might of the US Military. Now you just have to find a commander that would actually do it, Mattis will refuse, so he’s out, they JCS wouldn’t, so out they go. I suppose you may find a boot Lt somewhere down the chain that would, after every other officer refuses.

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (ffba1f)

  117. Col: “sounds like Fen – ”

    More insults. Did I just breach a bubble? Are you just an NPC? Why cant you defend yiye argument? Does our military have ROEs that allow them to use lethal Force against civilians trying to breach a military base? Yes or no?

    Fen (ffc6db)

  118. 116. If terrorists and border jumpers can hide behind children and the word “asylum” to escape the consequences of their crimes, it is not a matter of if another 9/11 will happen. It is only a matter of time.

    Gryph (08c844)

  119. Dustin-Gryph, the phrase “bless your heart ” is the way southerners say “you are an idiot”. Its meant as an insult. Although its usually used by women.

    Fen (ffc6db)

  120. Hmm, lessee. Blocking script=>Fen=>. Done.

    nk (dbc370)

  121. 120. Ditto. :)

    Gryph (08c844)

  122. “the military shooting a convoy of civilians asking for refugee status would be a political disaster”
    aphrael (3f0569) — 10/23/2018 @ 8:43 pm

    By what basis do Hondurans, who have made it safely out of their country and into Mexico, apply for refugee status in the US?

    Munroe (f7c026)

  123. Fen, you’re arguments are idiotic, and frankly I’m not exactly sure what your cryptic missives are supposed to conveying

    Crime happens all the time, sure 0.1% of the time there may a miscarriage of justice, but the United States is not a single case.

    Gryph and I may disagree vehemently about the migrant caravan, but at the end of the day, we’re a country of laws and will still probably agree on 85% of everything else. Unless he’s a Patriot’s fan, then no f-ing way.

    I think you’re like the pigeons in the park, you’ve flown by, dropped your load, and were hoping for some other reaction.

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (ffba1f)

  124. Col: “Now you just have to find a commander that would actually do it, ”

    You have no idea what you’re talking about. Are you a poser pretending to be military? We used lethal force to deter the advance of a mob just like this in Badera, Somalia. 3rd LAR BN, USMC. Restore Hope.

    Stop presenting yourself as some kind of military expert.

    Fen (ffc6db)

  125. Fen,

    You would be doing yourself a favor to read Patterico’s new commenting policy here. Note, specifically:

    Personal attacks on commenters (or me) are out. Criticizing the arguments is fine. Criticizing the person is not.

    Violations will be handled according to my judgment and the judgment of moderators I trust. There will indeed be a sliding scale, depending on your track record.

    I’m a moderator, and thus far, things aren’t looking too good. Please read the policy, and adhere to it. That is how you will be able to remain as a commenter.

    Dana (023079)

  126. Nk cant defend his argument so he resorts to insults. When his insults fail and I redouble, he blocks me.

    What cowards.

    Fen (ffc6db)

  127. 123. I don’t watch football. I much prefer Twitch streaming. You won’t hold that against me, I hope? 😉

    Gryph (08c844)

  128. If terrorists and border jumpers can hide behind children and the word “asylum” to escape the consequences of their crimes, it is not a matter of if another 9/11 will happen. It is only a matter of time.

    I’m 100% certain that another attack will occur at some point, but I’m also 99.9% certain this isn’t that. We have plenty of homegrown wacko’s of all types willing to rent a truck, like those weird incel people. If something large like 9/11 happens again, hiding in a caravan is the last place you’d try to cross the border, it’s way too haphazard, especially when you can just fly in as a tourist or student, a la 9/11.

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (ffba1f)

  129. Dustin-Gryph, the phrase “bless your heart ” is the way southerners say “you are an idiot”. Its meant as an insult. Although its usually used by women.

    Fen (ffc6db) — 10/23/2018 @ 8:56 pm

    Bless your heart.

    Dustin (ba94b2)

  130. Dana,
    I am responding to personal attacks, namely “bless your heart”.

    If you read carefully, you’ll see that others INSTIGATED personal attacks.

    I am more than willing to have a civil discussion, but I refuse to be bullied, and I will return serve when insulted.

    I’d you are going to be a moderator, don’t be biased. Give your warning to the commenters (nk and dustin) who started it.

    Otherwise, shove your warning up your ass

    Fen (ffc6db)

  131. And thanks, aphrael, my friend, for your #106. I do take your point and commend you for expressing it well.

    I recall Chief Justice Roberts being asked about Griswold in his confirmation hearings, and I believe he may have volunteered it as a well-settled and long-standing precedent recognizing a personal constitutional right to privacy that doesn’t fit very neatly under any of the Constitution’s express privacy provisions in the Third & Fourth Amendments, but which is in no practical danger today notwithstanding that somewhat sketchy provenance. He thought it unnecessary, therefore (if I’m remembering this right), to run through the detailed analysis of the stare decisis factors (reliance, etc.) in discussing it, and he was very unguarded and unequivocal in assuring the senators that it was at a vanishingly small risk of ever being overturned. He was, of course, considerably more guarded and less expansive in discussing other, later, and more continuously controversial precedents including, of course, Roe/Casey.

    Even as we speak, public interest lawyers right and left, pro-choice and pro-life, are surely reconsidering their legal (including legislative and court) strategies for what test case they want to bring up next, from which states and federal circuits — and which ones they don’t. SCOTUS only gets to pick from the cert petitions brought to it, and so it may well take several terms before we learn whether, and to what extent, Roe/Casey is, so to speak, back on the table.

    One area in which the SCOTUS supposedly has mandatory rather than discretionary appellate jurisdiction, though, is in gerrymandering cases under the Civil Rights Act of 1965, in appeals from special three-judge courts hearing those cases. I therefore predict the first big test case of the Court’s new composition may be to see whether Kavanaugh becomes the fifth vote to turn Justice Scalia’s four-Justice plurality in Vieth v. Jubilirer (2004) into a majority opinion — one which expressly overrules Davis v. Bandemer (1986), and holds instead that political gerrymandering claims are not justiciable, and hence can’t be heard by federal courts — in time for the re-districtings done after the 2020 Census. That isn’t the only enchilada on the menu, but it’s a very big one, which will have gigantic political repercussions starting as early as the 2022 election cycle. If, as I suspect will happen, the federal courts suddenly drop out of the business of second-guessing political gerrymandering, there will be a huge rebalancing of political power in favor of state legislatures.

    Beldar (fa637a)

  132. 128. I’m 99% certain that you’re right, and that the next attack won’t come from the current caravan. But there are two points here to remember:

    1. The 9/11 attackers killed 3000 people without using a single “weapon” in the dictionary-definition sense of the word. It was ten guys on two planes with box cutters — who had overstayed legally acquired student visas.

    2. This wouldn’t make the first caravan to come up from south of the border. It’s the third this year alone. Our percentage of illegal aliens within our borders is at an all-time high and increasing. And any 19 of them could theoretically do just what the 19 hijackers did on 9/11. Once they are here there is nothing to stop them.

    Gryph (08c844)

  133. I don’t watch football. I much prefer Twitch streaming. You won’t hold that against me, I hope? 😉

    Is it wrong that I’m 50 and actually get the reference?

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (ffba1f)

  134. Otherwise, shove your warning up your ass

    Has that line ever actually worked for you, Fen?

    Beldar (fa637a)

  135. Go ahead a ban me. Your cucks are terrified

    Fen (ffc6db)

  136. 133. Not at all. I’m 40. Not exactly a spring chicken, myself.

    Gryph (08c844)

  137. So a reporter is sent out to interview a man who just turned 100 years old.
    He asks the old man: “To what do you attribute your longevity?
    The old man says: “I always followed one simple rule. Never argue with idiots.”
    The reporter says: “That can’t possibly be the reason.”
    The old man says: “You’re right.”

    nk (dbc370)

  138. 135. …says the guy hiding behind the anonymity of a comments section. That’s rich.

    Gryph (08c844)

  139. By what basis do Hondurans, who have made it safely out of their country and into Mexico, apply for refugee status in the US?

    Presumably on the basis of applicable US law.

    Transit through Mexico is no bar to application for asylum:

    To obtain asylum through the affirmative asylum process you must be physically present in the United States. You may apply for asylum status regardless of how you arrived in the United States or your current immigration status.

    (emphasis added)

    Dave (9664fc)

  140. 139. True. Transit through Mexico is no bar to asylum. But many caravaners have admitted openly that they do not fear for their safety. They are travelling because they were told jobs and money await them in America. THAT is a bar to coming here for Asylum.

    By rights, each and every one of those migrants applying for Asylum should be thoroughly fisked. Practically speaking there’s no way a group that large can be properly vetted before some of them disappear into obscurity to work off-book jobs.

    And I’ll say it again: All it took to kill 3000 Americans were 10 individuals with box cutters in two airplanes who had legally obtained student visas anyway.

    Gryph (08c844)

  141. Does our military have ROEs that allow them to use lethal Force against civilians trying to breach a military base?

    Fen, do you mean “the Force,” like Darth uses to choke to death the Imperial Navy officers who displease him?

    Or does your capital letter have some other significance? Lemme guess: Is it an homage to the random capitalization habits of the POTUS-45?

    Beldar (fa637a)

  142. Otherwise, shove your warning up your ass

    Fen is banned, effective now.

    Patterico (115b1f)

  143. By rights, each and every one of those migrants applying for Asylum should be thoroughly fisked. Practically speaking there’s no way a group that large can be properly vetted before some of them disappear into obscurity to work off-book jobs.

    With past convoys, most people drop out somewhere along the route and take their chances in Mexico.

    No reason to expect this one will be much different.

    With the one six months ago, eventually about 244 people had applications for asylum accepted (allowing them entry, but not the right to work legally).

    The sky is not falling.

    Dave (9664fc)

  144. @143 – when I wrote “had applications for asylum accepted”, I mean “were allowed to submit asylum applications and remain pending a decision”. I don’t mean “were granted asylum”.

    Dave (9664fc)

  145. Further to my #131, to aphrael: There’s certainly a bigger constituency who’re eager to see Obergefell overturned than there is to see Griswold overturned. But I have a hard time imagining a stronger example of a SCOTUS precedent upon which vast numbers of people have justifiably relied in good faith and to their potential detriment in ordering their most fundamental life plans. And as a practical matter, to bring a justiciable case with a live case and controversy which could challenge Obergefell, some state legislature would have to pass, and its governor sign, a statute prohibiting gay marriage (again), knowing that the lower federal courts would be bound by Obergefell, but with the hopes that there are five Justices ready to overturn it. Obergefell is clearly at more risk than Griswold, but I don’t think it’s at remotely the same degree of risk as Roe/Casey, where clearly there are states whose legislatures and governors are ready to throw down for a showdown.

    Beldar (fa637a)

  146. We are left but to wonder if Fen was talking about the Force. I may not sleep tonight.

    Beldar (fa637a)

  147. It tales a whole lot more effort to interpret the law, then to make it up out of whole cloth. Take the immigration pause it was perfectly in line with precedents it was the opposition that was off keel.

    Folks who engage in violence have put themselves outside the politucal system (except for those who have tax exempt foundations) they seem immune to the law.

    narciso (d1f714)

  148. I also want to point out, in my own defense:

    If you were writing a Coneheads video game, “Beldar” would not be an NPC, “Beldar” would be the default name for the player-character.

    Beldar (fa637a)

  149. When you start calling people “cucks” in your third comment on this site. . . .

    JVW (42615e)

  150. I do want to sign up for the Patterico’s Pontifications cruise! Perhaps we should start modestly. I’ve never been to Catalina Island, but I hear it’s an easy day trip from LA, right? Surely they serve adult beverages on those boats.

    Beldar (fa637a)

  151. I’ve never been to Catalina Island, but I hear it’s an easy day trip from LA, right? Surely they serve adult beverages on those boats.

    You get to ride the ferry free on your birthday, so let’s figure out if a few of us share a birthday and choose that day.

    JVW (42615e)

  152. Belatedly, @ Gryph: I hadn’t refreshed my browser, and therefore hadn’t seen your #80 before posting my #81. As for your #85 & #88: Bravo, we agree on that as well.

    Beldar (fa637a)

  153. 129-Dustin
    Your response had me laughing my guts out.

    mg (9e54f8)

  154. If you were writing a Coneheads video game, “Beldar” would not be an NPC, “Beldar” would be the default name for the player-character.

    Gonna have to disagree here.

    In a Coneheads video game, the players would not (could not) all be Beldar. They would have to be other coneheads arriving from his planet, and Beldar would indeed probably be an NPC/quest-giver or otherwise “story” figure in the game.

    You can’t play as Captain Kirk, Picard, etc in the Star Trek MMO, or as Gandalf in the Lord of the Rings MMO, etc.

    Dave (9664fc)

  155. Cruise? Will Ted be on board?

    mg (9e54f8)

  156. I watched all but a half dozen or so of the Astros’ games this year, and almost the entire second half of their championship season last year — what an amazing run of entertainment from an adorable band of young men! — and I’m now fully attuned to the Statcast Era in which data is comprehensively, furiously collected for everything that happens, or fails to happen, on a baseball diamond.

    Although this blog is not yet set up for Statcast measurement, I am nevertheless confident that comment #142 closely approximates this blast by Trevor Story of the Rockies last month (Sep. 5), for 505 feet — with “an exit velocity of 111.9 mph [and] with a launch angle of 28 degrees.”

    Good luck to the Red Sox, by the way.

    Beldar (fa637a)

  157. @ Dave (#154): Depends on if it’s a multi- or single-player game, I think. I’ll grant that the nature of the blog makes this a multiplayer online experience, if not necessarily a massively multiplayer online experience.

    Fen is gone, though. Ah, Fen, we barely knew thee, and yet — we instantly knew thee, all too well. If I’m up on my memes (and that’s very unlikely!), I believe one of us was supposed to accuse Fen of being a Russian bot before he got booted. I’m thinking that would probably be against the new rules too.

    Dana, thank you again for this interesting post, including your on-topic comments, and I commend you for your consistent judicious temperament while wearing your moderator cap as well.

    Beldar (fa637a)

  158. I agree with alex jones false flag on this one. who benefits from this? left would dearly love soros to be dead so they have excuse to blow up conservatives. if soros was blown up bill ayres would now be telling how to blow up koch brothers and sheldon addelson.

    lany (6ad8d0)

  159. In the very early days of MMORPGs and the internet, I played in the beta version of EverQuest, and then within about two weeks after its release, as they were frantically ramping up new servers to meet a genuinely astonishing demand, I was invited to volunteer to become a Guide (which lasted about a day) and then a Senior Guide, basically in charge of customer service for about their 15th server, with a player population of about 6000, of whom probably 2-3k were online during peak hours. Mostly we helped players resolve problems created by bugs, usually involving the inability to retrieve and loot items from their player-character’s corpse after it had been killed somehow. The corpses of the players killed while riding the boat from one continent to another, for example, would immediately sink to the bottom of the sea, from which players could never retrieve their gear. So a lot of our work was, we Guides joked, “Hit the ball and drag Harry,” meaning Harry’s corpse.

    But occasionally, when everything was running smoothly and the complaints queue was cleared, we Guides were permitted to roleplay in custom-built avatars with godmode powers — we could inhabit a supercharged version of any type of NPC in the game. So three or four of us would make level 50 (top-level) gnolls in the West Karanas Plains zone, and — pretending that we were supercharged NPCs, not Guides having fun — we’d gank a half dozen or so players and camp their corpses. The word would get around, hollered from zone to zone in the OOC channels: “Guide event in WKP, everyone come help kill the supergnolls!” And eventually we’d have 200-300 players, all in their best level 15 or level 20 gear, hacking at our ankles (we could grow any character to any dimension, so we were Titan-sized gnolls) and hoping we’d drop some really choice super-rare loot (when we finally let someone “kill” us).

    So I literally have pretended to be an NPC. We’d shout variations — funny ones, customized to the guilds/clans that were fighting us — on what the gnoll NPCs were programmed to say in the game. And the players loved it, during that very brief period, less than two months, before the scaling difficulties made SonyEQ abandon the practice.

    So some of the best times I’ve ever had on the internet, long ago, were pretending to be an NPC — albeit one with godmode powers.

    Beldar (fa637a)

  160. (They ended up having to abandon the whole volunteer Guide program too, a few months later, when a rival company quite properly got into FELA wage & hour violations for its very similar program. The whole thing was too good to last, but brilliant while it lasted, like the best of vaudeville.)

    Beldar (fa637a)

  161. while I don’t agree with Obama on a whole slew of issues, the killing of Awlaki is justified in my opinion because of his incitement of violence against the US, which is treason and punishable by death.

    I agree little BtB, especially that NPC nonsense, but Awlaki–an American citizen–wasn’t even indicted, so how could he have been sentenced to death when there was not even an indictment or conviction?

    Paul Montagu (7b9e3b)

  162. The Soros thing is strange, but I’m willing to be that its an actual attempt. If Soros had done it as a hoax it wouldn’t have been so lame-ass. It’s on a par with the rock through a window thing.

    Also lame is McCarthy’s camera system. Those pictures could be any white men, 18-40, with average builds. Probably no more than 50,000 suspects in Bakersfield.

    Kevin M (a57144)

  163. Awlaki had, by his own admission, adhered to our enemies and was “waging war against the Untied States” by recruiting people to al-Qaeda. Calling this “treason” is fairly accurate.

    If he had somehow been taken into custody he would likely have been convicted of a serious crime, but probably not been sentenced to death. However, he was killed “on the battlefield” (as this war is fought), and that’s not ever been considered a place for criminal law.

    Kevin M (a57144)

  164. Send in the FBI.

    mg (a05430)

  165. 149, that term is so 2016.

    urbanleftbehind (eed4d5)

  166. It’s a real attempt on Soros but I think it’s a DLC mainstreamer in panic mode.

    urbanleftbehind (eed4d5)

  167. We’re talking about the senior Awlaki, right? Not his sixteen-year-old son?

    Leviticus (f67b87)

  168. the sleazy fbi already sent the “bomb” to their world famous evidence-doctoring “crime lab”

    we’ll never know the truth now

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  169. Or his eight year old daughter?

    All three were killed separately, is why I’m trying to clarify.

    Leviticus (f67b87)

  170. Leviticus @ 169. It’s the collateral damage interpretation of Matthew 19:14: “But Jesus said, Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven.”

    nk (dbc370)

  171. Re Soros: Who stands to benefit when a billionaire dies?

    nk (dbc370)

  172. Anyone smart enough to build a workable black-powder pipe bomb is smart enough to know that George Soros doesn’t fetch his own mail from the mailbox. The preponderance of the evidence is, therefore, that it was a put-up job so Soros can act threatened.
    It would be more effective to use a stencil to spray-paint a sniper rifle on the mailbox.

    As for the military options for dealing with the caravan, keep in mind that the US and Mexico already have a variety of joint forces agreements that they use for when the US helps Mexico go after some drug kingpin or another. Any cross-border action could easily be covered under one of these. I’m sure people would complain about the exact legalities but they’re going to complain either way. As long as Mexico’s lame-duck president is noncommittal, there we go.

    Ingot9455 (68bf96)

  173. “Who stands to benefit when a billionaire dies?”

    Jackson Hole, Wyoming

    Colonel Haiku (d52d85)

  174. Anyone smart enough to build a workable black-powder pipe bomb is smart enough to know that George Soros doesn’t fetch his own mail from the mailbox. The preponderance of the evidence is, therefore, that it was a put-up job so Soros can act threatened.

    Assuming facts not in evidence. People can be very smart about some things, and dumber than a stump about others. And after all, some righty may have sent the bomb to Soros mailbox to raise suspicion of a false flag operation, etc, etc, etc…

    Appalled (96665e)

  175. I had to Google it.

    nk (dbc370)

  176. It might be NY-centric as there has been some arrests of Proud Boys after a beatdown of some Antifa about 2 weeks ago. Could be retaliation, could be a false flag to justify a bigger takedown, could be affliates seeking to embarrass the PB braintrust after they named names and worked with authorities.

    urbanleftbehind (5eecdb)

  177. According to CNN, the Secret Service and “a law enforcement agency” report “suspicious packages” have now been intercepted en route to Hillary Clinton, Barack Obama and the White House.

    Let the “false flag” conspiracy spinning commence!

    Dave (9664fc)

  178. Imma go with the Russians.

    Dave (9664fc)

  179. Mossad.

    nk (dbc370)

  180. “I agree with alex jones false flag on this one.” — lany

    Here’s the guy you agree with, screaming at some feces on the street.

    It’s tough to tell them apart.

    Patterico (115b1f)

  181. The report of a device sent to the White House was apparently incorrect.

    Dave (9664fc)

  182. I have a question:

    What the heck is a NPC?

    Annie (3088ef)

  183. They are an invasion force and should be treated as such.

    Um, they’re not an “invasion force”. Words like invasion mean things.

    “the act of entering a place by force, often in large numbers”

    In four months’ time, the US Border Patrol should be well-equipped to handle this group of civilians in the event they try to cross illegally.

    Paul Montagu (cbbfc4)

  184. hi annie that’s a non-player character

    you can start here

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  185. An NPC is a ‘Non Player Character’, Annie. A robot in a computer game. Or the recording on a telephone tree where you press 1 to go here, press 2 to go there. While there’s a little more background to it, calling someone an NPC is a way of saying they are a robot with no agency who can’t think for themselves. There’s no point in arguing with an NPC just like you can’t argue with a telephone recording – you only get the canned response.

    In general, insults only sting if they possess some element of truth.
    People who get mad at being called an NPC must be worrying about their lockstep, lack of agency, and flowing with the mob.

    Ingot9455 (68bf96)

  186. Someone named “Ingot9455″ wrote:

    Anyone smart enough to build a workable black-powder pipe bomb is smart enough to know that George Soros doesn’t fetch his own mail from the mailbox. The preponderance of the evidence is, therefore, that it was a put-up job so Soros can act threatened.

    To which I respond:

    Who says you get to open and close the evidence, or define the universe of potential evidence to be limited to, or even to include, your own speculation about the motives of someone unknown to you? What you have is not the “preponderance of the evidence,” a term which necessarily implies that there’s been an opportunity for others to gather and present evidence (which may not, by the way, consist of speculation), but a woeful misuse of a legal phrase.

    I genuinely don’t know if Soros picks up his own mail. I don’t think Ingot9455 knows either. If I’m to engage in counterspeculation, though, mine would be that either Soros, or someone in his family, or someone they’ve hired, does that, and that regardless, Soros would prefer that neither he, nor anyone in his family, nor anyone they’ve hired, be exposed to the possibility of exploding pipe bombs on his property. Therefore I refuse to draw the suggested inference, which amounts to a claim that because Soros is rich, he therefore cannot have been the subject of an attempted act of criminal violence, and that it’s a “put-up job” instead.

    Beldar (fa637a)

  187. Annie, in this context, the Trumpkins aren’t using the term “NPC” to refer to an actual non-player character in a video game. Rather, it’s the latest insult meme among Trumpkins, an attempt by them to insult those who they dislike. They use it as a synonym for “cuck,” a made-up word that makes them giggle when they type it. They think anything that makes them giggle must be a good burn, and that by calling people names, they’ve somehow won an argument or terrified their rhetorical opponents. If it pleases you, you could pretend that they’ve said “Poopyhead” instead of “NPC,” and you won’t be missing anything.

    Beldar (fa637a)

  188. NPCs have nothing to do with voicemail menus. I don’t know where Ingot9455 came up with that. But his alternate suggestion, “robot,” is apt.

    Beldar (fa637a)

  189. I do know George Soros doesn’t pick up his own mail. I’ve seen on the news that he has multiple houses and security guards. He can’t be at all of them and his security people obviously pick up the mail at the one he’s at because it is a standard part of the job description.

    Ingot9455 (68bf96)

  190. I was making an analogy to something similar, Beldar, that someone not conversant with roleplaying games or computer games would know.

    Ingot9455 (68bf96)

  191. @ Ingot9455: That’s another guess, Ingot9455. You don’t even have second-hand knowledge, that is to say, hearsay knowledge, regarding who picks up the mail. You may have hearsay knowledge that he has multiple houses and security guards, but that still is only a basis for your speculation. And the broader problem with your thesis is that it presumes that Soros couldn’t possibly care about family members or employees who might be hurt on his property and that he therefore would put them at risk through a “put-up job,” as you suggest that this is. Your speculation wouldn’t be admissible in any court for any purpose. You’re just another guy on the internet with an opinion, which is fine; but don’t dress up your speculation with terms like “preponderance of the evidence,” please, while you’re venting your opinion and speculating.

    Beldar (fa637a)

  192. Analogy as evidence, well, that’s novel at least.

    You might say illogical or irrational to think he’d pick up his own mail, but since it wasn’t just him, and terrorists are called that because they want to envoke…terror.

    Putting a bomb in your mailbox would be a pretty big threat for any rational human person.

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (aa4cb1)

  193. Awlaki had, by his own admission, adhered to our enemies and was “waging war against the Untied States” by recruiting people to al-Qaeda. Calling this “treason” is fairly accurate.

    I have no doubt he was a traitor, but he didn’t have the benefit of the rule of law to be judged so, yet our executive branch made the unilateral decision to kill an American citizen regardless of his legal status. If he was bombed while hanging out with a half-dozen al Qaeda and he just happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time, that’s one thing. But an American citizen was targeted for death with zero due process. That was one of Obama’s most un-American acts I can think of. Obama’s killing of Awlaki’s 16-year old son (also an American citizen) by drone-strike is even more questionable. The question I have is why Obama held the value of our citizenship in such low regard.

    Paul Montagu (cbbfc4)

  194. He was collateral damage, in a strike against qP operative Ibrahim al banna. It’s an open question however he might have been lured into the field by morten storm.

    Narciso (d1f714)

  195. So when I see multiple Soros compounds on television, that’s still hearsay knowledge? Gasp!
    I must have seen them on CNN.

    Ingot9455 (68bf96)

  196. Beldar, @131:

    > is in gerrymandering cases under the Civil Rights Act of 1965

    I’m seriously concerned that there might be a majority to overturn Arizona Independent Redistricting Commission, and in effect to outlaw the use of independent redistricting commissions to draw congressional maps. (I’m aware that Congress could undo this, but it won’t).

    —–

    Beldar, @145:

    yeah, the gist of my “don’t stress about this” argument is that, even in the most conservative states, it’s unlikely to imagine such a law passing *now*, let alone in a decade as it becomes culturally settled expectation.

    Also, while we’re discussing NPCs, i’ve *always* read your handle as a reference to a David Eddings character.

    aphrael (e0cdc9)


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