Patterico's Pontifications

10/12/2018

Turks Tell U.S.: We Have Audio of a Journalist Being Tortured and Murdered in the Saudi Consulate

Filed under: General — Patterico @ 7:15 am



The Turks say they have audio of Jamal Khashoggi being beaten and tortured by the Saudis:

The Turkish government has told U.S. officials that it has audio and video recordings that prove Washington Post columnist Jamal Khashoggi was killed inside the Saudi Consulate in Istanbul this month, according to U.S. and Turkish officials.

The recordings show that a Saudi security team detained Khashoggi in the consulate after he walked in Oct. 2 to obtain an official document before his upcoming wedding, then killed him and dismembered his body, the officials said.

The audio recording in particular provides some of the most persuasive and gruesome evidence that the Saudi team is responsible for Khashoggi’s death, the officials said.

“The voice recording from inside the embassy lays out what happened to Jamal after he entered,” said one person with knowledge of the recording who, like others, spoke on the condition of anonymity to discuss highly sensitive intelligence.

“You can hear his voice and the voices of men speaking Arabic,” this person said. “You can hear how he was interrogated, tortured and then murdered.”

A second person briefed on the recording said men could be heard beating Khashoggi.

Khashoggi is hardly the first innocent person Mohammed bin Salman has had killed. We’re sending weapons to a regime that created a humanitarian crisis in Yemen and conducted an air strike on a school bus. But, to paraphrase Stalin, if only one man dies of torture and is cut up with a bone saw, that is a tragedy. If millions die, that’s only statistics.

[Cross-posted at The Jury Talks Back.]

124 Responses to “Turks Tell U.S.: We Have Audio of a Journalist Being Tortured and Murdered in the Saudi Consulate”

  1. We are selling weapons to a regime that created a humanitarian crisis in Yemen. Not that Yemen itself isn’t significantly responsible for its own situation.

    Skorcher (e9f8a6)

  2. And how many Kurdish villages has erdigan destroyed, who has he provided sanctuary to like the proverbial frog, which country has he targeted, we’re supposed to forget all that?

    Narciso (1f2cdc)

  3. So is this being pushed because it would potentially cause a rift between the US and an important ally that is helping in the fight against Iran in the region? If the Saudis truly did this, do we use back channels to strongly suggest the Saudis do NOT operate in the future? Or do we roll with the rift?

    I don’t think Erdogan’s government deserves any trust.

    Colonel Haiku (1fcc64)

  4. drama queen turks lol why don’t they just show the video then

    you can’t trust turkeys

    the good side is they just released their American hostage

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  5. but there’s still other American hostages being held by the dirty thug-turks

    Brunson was not the only American behind bars in Turkey on questionable charges. Several Turkish-American citizens — including NASA scientist Serkan Golge and several workers from the United States Embassy in Ankara — are languishing in prison alleged to have a connection to Gulen’s group.

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  6. It certainly looks that way, coronello, btw general Flynn some contribution to erdigans cause was a documentary. If Mueller had anything more he would have brought charges.

    Note the hacking now turns israeli

    Narciso (f5aa26)

  7. Wasn’t Khashoggi Muslim Brotherhood? If that’s true I’m not sure I would jump straight to innocent man as a descriptor.

    If the Saudis are taking out the mb I don’t see why we need to get involved. But I wouldn’t be against selling ammo at a discount.

    frosty48 (6226c1)

  8. Bob Corker wants nothing more than to remove the saudis from the equation for so his persian terror friends can nuker the poop out the jews

    but that’s a very good point Mr. Narciso

    it’s really just a difference of degree between doing bone saw on somebody versus doing mueller on them for so they die penniless in prison or doing a dirty fbi rape hoax on them that destroys their life and career

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  9. Islam on Islam crime? Unexpected.

    I do not give a fig for Turkey. What happens in Turkey may as well never happened.

    Unless and until genuine Islamic reforms are possible, let it go. Anyone who did not already understand the House of Saud and their evil is a purposeful fool. We’ve happily sold our debt to them. For decades.

    Now we are going to signal virtue? Cool. Ban them from the next auction of Treasury bonds.

    Yeah. Didn’t think so.

    Ed from SFV (6d42fa)

  10. Daniel Pearl was beheaded by Pakistan terroists. We still do business with them.

    mg (f0a1d2)

  11. “We’re sending weapons to a regime that created a humanitarian crisis in Yemen and conducted an air strike on a school bus. But, to paraphrase Stalin…”

    Speaking of Stalin, didn’t we send tons of weapons and aid to him after he created a humanitarian crisis in Poland and the Ukraine?

    The judgment of history is harsh on that one, isn’t it?

    Munroe (49b7dc)

  12. If the Turks were serious, the story would read:

    The Turks have provided the US with audio and video

    steveg (a9dcab)

  13. 9 – Ida Victor Ida?

    harkin (adce92)

  14. Who did 9/11?

    nk (dbc370)

  15. I’m not too worked up over bombing a school bus since the jackals often use ambulances and school buses to move fighters and weapons, women and children as human shields.
    That said, I’m positive the Saudi’s didn’t care either way. No one in the region seems to, unless they are trying to score virtue points against each other.

    Maybe if Bernie wins in 2020 he can get the oil sheiks to let their Bangladeshi slave laborers unionize

    steveg (a9dcab)

  16. And it really shouldn’t have taken fifteen of them.

    (They said it twice in the movie, too.)

    nk (dbc370)

  17. this whole bone-sawed shamoggi thing’s just empty fluffernutter but we’re all supposed to light our hair on fire about it right on cue

    i don’t think that little trick works as well as it used to

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  18. If Allah had wanted that school bus to survive it would have.
    If Allah wanted the Bangladeshis to be treated better than subhuman he’d have given them oil and the will and fight to keep it. Instead Allah parked them at the butt end of one of Indias giant sewers of a river and we must respect the will of Allah when it comes to enslaving and abusing the other

    steveg (a9dcab)

  19. nk

    I dunno. You’ve got a sound tech, cameramen, key grip, caterers, drivers and maybe a stunt double and voice over actor in case the guys heart gives out after the first few fingers

    steveg (a9dcab)

  20. @14 What if it turns out that Salman is acting against internal factions associated with 9/11?

    frosty48 (6226c1)

  21. Why can’t the Turks handle this on their own? Why even bring the US into it? Didn’t they state that they are not our friends?

    UV (787359)

  22. Didn’t they state that they are not our friends?

    No, they did not. They’re NATO allies. Moreover, we use their air force base (not a NATO base) to keep our planes and troops near Russia.

    I think it’s the Washington Post, not Turkey, which is really trying to bring us into it. He was their reporter.

    nk (dbc370)

  23. Yes, I’m aware that they are in NATO, but that doesn’t mean we can’t notice their belligerence toward us recently with their new President Ergodan. There’s been economic strife and threats of military confrontation with US forces in Syria. They’ve taken a clear stance against Israel as well.

    UV (787359)

  24. Jamie Lee Curtis eats a special yogurt that works with her body’s own special poop enzymes to take her performance to the next level

    she can practically poop on command at this point

    this is a good metaphor for how we’re all supposed to act when we hear tales of the hapless bone-sawed saudi muzzy-bro

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  25. So she’s just a full-on horse now?

    urbanleftbehind (5eecdb)

  26. 22… perhaps Bezos should make a move… he makes more $ than the GDP of several nation’s combined…

    Colonel Haiku (1fcc64)

  27. I’ve got to go buy an oboe. Be right back.

    nk (dbc370)

  28. Wait till he gets nuclear weapons.

    Narciso (d1f714)

  29. Why is the audio better, or more conclusive than the video?

    Now it does sound logical that the killing would take place in a room where there were no cameras, but earlier they said the video had been recorded by the killers to prove it was successful.

    https://www.nytimes.com/2018/10/09/world/europe/jamal-khashoggi-turkey-saudi-arabia.html

    Another person briefed on the matter, speaking on condition of anonymity to disclose confidential details, told The Times on Saturday that Turkish intelligence had obtained a video of the killing, made by the Saudis to prove that it had occurred.

    Now, they say:

    https://www.nytimes.com/2018/10/11/world/europe/turkey-audio-video-khashoggi.html

    But other Turkish officials, speaking on condition of anonymity to discuss the unfolding investigation, have describing a gory killing in graphic detail that appears to come from recordings obtained through surveillance or intercepted communications.

    Those Turkish officials have said that 15 Saudi agents arrived in Istanbul that day on a mission to assassinate Mr. Khashoggi, that they killed him within two hours and then dismembered his body in order to remove it. The Turks say the Saudis brought a bone saw and a doctor of forensic medicine to dismember the body.

    The 15 Saudis and the two planes are not identical.

    It’s been reported that 6 Saudis came on commercial flight(s) and 9 came on a Gulfstream jet belonging to a Saudi company that was seized in the past year by the Saudi government company as a result of the Ritz Carlton imprisonment as acondition for someone’s release. And that there was a second sister plane belonging to the same company that also arrived. The nine men who came on the first plane went into the consulate and the people from the other plane went into nearby hotels. The six Saudis who came on commercial flights – what?

    I’m thinking now maybe the people from the second plane were only needed for the return flight.

    One plane for the assassination team, and one for the body, so those people didn’t need to go into the consulate.

    One of the two planes stopped off in Abu Dhabi on the way back and the other stopped overnight in Egyot, and then both returned to Riyadh.

    Sammy Finkelman (02a146)

  30. happyfeet @5. I think the other Americans being held prisoner by the Turkish governmenbt are not Christians and there’s no evangelical push for their release and people in the U.S. government have been struggling to get Trump’s attention. I think one of them worked for the U.S. embassy.

    Sammy Finkelman (02a146)

  31. Sammeh does that make sense to you.

    Narciso (d1f714)

  32. The Turkish government has now set Pastor Andrew Brunson free (well, a probably government influenced court did) He was found guilty and sentenced to what amounts to time served and will be able to leave the country.

    Sammy Finkelman (02a146)

  33. narciso @ 33. What is the thing that you are asking if it makes sense? The two planes? The two planes didn’t leave Istanbul at the same time.

    Sammy Finkelman (02a146)

  34. The killing has been described in detail to reporters. The New York Times says it heard the same description more than once.

    One of the people briefed about the audio and video material described them to The New York Times last Saturday, and a second person with knowledge of the material described them late Thursday night.

    So, were the recordings made by the killers, or by the Turks? Or did the Turkish government obtain the Saudi recordings one way or another?

    Is the statement there was a “video of the killing” basically a mistake, and the video does not show the actual killing? Maybe it’s a video of some of the dismemberment? Or is it that some of the evidence (audio) is maybe getting more circulation than others?

    Sammy Finkelman (02a146)

  35. In the Oct 9 NYT story, it says the video shows the actual killing:

    https://www.nytimes.com/2018/10/09/world/europe/jamal-khashoggi-turkey-saudi-arabia.html

    “There is a video of the moment of him being killed,” Kemal Ozturk, a columnist in a pro-government newspaper and the former head of a semiofficial news agency, said in an interview on a pro-government television network, citing unnamed security officials.

    Sammy Finkelman (02a146)

  36. 10. mg (f0a1d2) — 10/12/2018 @ 8:39 am

    Daniel Pearl was beheaded by Pakistan terroists. We still do business with them

    The person who did the actual beheading (or took credit for it) is in Guantanamo Bay, awaiting trial for planning 9/11.

    Sammy Finkelman (02a146)

  37. Sharia came unto a lover of Sharia. Why in he$$ am I to care?

    Ed from SFV (6d42fa)

  38. Both National Security Adviser John Boltin and Jack-of-all-trades Jared Kushner spoke to Mohammed bin Salman on Tuesday, and secretary of State Mike Pompeo also did either before or after or both.

    President Donald Trump is said to have spken to some Saudi but apparently not the Crown Prince.

    The Saudi Ambassador to the United States, Prince Khalid bin Salman had flown back to Riyadh (not on U.S. orders or request)

    Sammy Finkelman (02a146)

  39. Some people are cancelling trips, some are cancelling sponsorships – it’s a partial cancellation – and some lobbyists are canceling contracts.

    Sammy Finkelman (02a146)

  40. That they would keep any kind of evidence.

    Narciso (d1f714)

  41. Some people are cancelling trips, some are cancelling sponsorships – it’s a partial cancellation – and some lobbyists are canceling contracts.

    you can tell how gay and contrived this whole thing is by looking at the picayune stature of the people canceling stuff

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  42. A few days adter Sept 11, 2001:

    https://www.nytimes.com/2001/09/15/us/after-attacks-saudis-battle-against-terrorism-tests-fragile-relationship-between.html

    Among Saudis there was a sense that the movement of Mr. bin Laden, if indeed it carried out this week’s attacks, had moved beyond the pale.

    ”If in the past there were supporters or sympathizers or admiration, what happened in New York will turn it off,” said Jamal Khashoggi, the managing editor of The Arab News in Jidda, who spent years covering Islamic movements. ”He is dragging all of us into a conflict with the West that we don’t want.”

    Sammy Finkelman (02a146)

  43. Thomas L. Friedman Oct. 8:

    https://www.nytimes.com/2018/10/08/opinion/jamal-khashoggi-missing-saudi-journalist.html

    As the year went on, Jamal came to believe that M.B.S.’s dark side was completely taking over. When we last spoke in August — thanks to a chance encounter at 17th and K Streets in Washington — he told me that he was getting married to a Turkish woman, and could not go back to Saudi Arabia right now and that I must ring an alarm bell about the increasingly harsh crackdowns and the arrests of critics — left, right and center — in Saudi Arabia by M.B.S.

    He was killed in an attempt to silence that alarm, which could affect U.S. policy towards Saudi Arabia.

    The U.S. government found out about a plan to lure Jamal Khashoggi back to Saudi Arabia with an offer of a plum job. That did not work. Now I suppose he wouldn’t have been killed if he had gone back to Saudi Arabia. The Saudis evidently decided they couldn’t risk trying to smuggle a whole human being held prisoner out of Turkey, so they decided to kill him instead.

    And they were successful in getting him out of the country withiout detection.

    They just forgot too many important people knew him and cared about him and knew he had gone into the consulate, so it wasn’t over once his body parts arrived in Saudi Arabia, or perhaps the United Arab Emirates or maybe even Egypt.

    Sammy Finkelman (02a146)

  44. “Khashoggi is hardly the first innocent person Mohammed bin Salman has had killed.”

    Eeeeehhhh…..

    “Khalifa refutes allegations that he founded Asian terror groups by explaining that as a businessman and the head of a large Islamic charity he met many people. “People came and met me and I gave them my card. I have fully documented evidence that I was working with the Filipino government, not the rebels.”

    Yet Khalifa admits he looks suspicious. He was Osama bin Laden’s best friend and married his sister. His business card was found in the office of 1993 World Trade Center bomber Ramzi Yousef and he knew many of those known to have links to Al Qaeda.

    “I was Osama’s best friend for 10 years,” he says. “I really loved Osama and we were almost never apart. He was very humble, very simple, very polite. I never heard him say a bad word against anybody.””

    “Gunaratna agrees that Khalifa’s charity work in the Philippines did have some legitimacy. He built schools, established healthcare clinics, and distributed food aid. Many residents of the southern Philippines, Christians as well as Muslims, remember Khalifa kindly.

    The gray area lies in how much of Khalifa’s charity money was diverted to terrorism. Khalifa says none: “I am not only sure, but challenging anyone to prove otherwise.” Defectors from Abu Sayyaf claim they received up to 70 percent of the money.

    Jamal Khashoggi, a Saudi columnist whose views are aired in the Western media, is a Khalifa supporter.

    “I know Jamal very well and there is no way I believe he is involved [with Al Qaeda],” says Mr. Khashoggi.”

    https://www.csmonitor.com/2003/0121/p07s01-wome.html

    Though the operative name in this case may be less Osama Bin Laden than Prince Alwaleed, the other big name billionaire for the Saudi throne who fell rather abruptly from grace last year:

    https://www.inaglobal.fr/en/television/article/al-waleed-bin-talal-unveils-new-channel-alarab

    Both Bloomberg and Murdoch’s name also shows up, make of that what you will. Throwing money and support behind any particular Saudi prince always seems like a thing likely to cause ‘unexpected’ and ‘regrettable’ violence a few months after in their great Game of Sand Thrones, with previous friends becoming enemies and radicals previously distant gaining sudden cash for foreign ops.

    Turkey may be positioning itself as the ‘good guys’ in this scenario but they’ve also just admitted to the world that they bug foreign embassies as a matter of course.

    Pencil-necked Pundit (ec9399)

  45. Jamal Khashoggi quoted in the New York Times in 1996:

    https://www.nytimes.com/1996/11/05/world/in-saudis-heartland-unrest-is-aimed-at-rulers-and-us.html

    ”To the extremists, to declare the Government as illegitimate makes it an infidel government,” said Jamal Khashoggi, a Saudi journalist. ”And the moment they declare a government an infidel government, they believe they have the right to fight against it.”

    Sammy Finkelman (02a146)

  46. Well, you know, Trotsk was not a good guy – but he did attack Stalin (maybe somewhat in false ideological terms) and he was murdered by Stalin in 1940 in Mexico and that was not a good thing.

    What exactly Jamal Khashoggi was is not clear yet to me. He has been said to be a public defender of Saudi rulers.

    Sammy Finkelman (02a146)

  47. * Trotsky

    Oct 19, 2001

    https://www.nytimes.com/2001/10/19/world/nation-challenged-education-anti-western-extremist-views-pervade-saudi-schools.html

    One pamphlet said it was a sin even to vacation in the West, and another condemned those who wish non-Muslims well on their holidays.

    The very same lessons were echoed in the nearly 20 pages in the high school textbook devoted to the involved principle known as ”Al Wala and Al Bara,” or showing loyalty to Muslims and shunning outsiders.

    ”One of the major requirements in hating the infidels and being hostile to them is ignoring their rituals and their festivities,” the textbook says.

    Later in the chapter it is recommended that Saudi youth do nothing to imitate non-Muslims in the way they dress, walk, eat, drink, or talk.

    ”It is social fanaticism,” said Jamal Khashoggi, the deputy editor in chief of The Arab News, ”but it takes just a few small adjustments to turn it into political fanaticism.”

    Sammy Finkelman (02a146)

  48. Both National Security Adviser John Boltin and Jack-of-all-trades Jared Kushner spoke to Mohammed bin Salman on Tuesday, and secretary of State Mike Pompeo also did either before or after or both.

    President Donald Trump is said to have spken to some Saudi but apparently not the Crown Prince.

    Given Spanky’s beta-male idol-worship of murderous dictators (he even bowed before this one…), I’m sure he’s congratulating the Saudis and regaling them with boasts about the size of his bone-saw…

    Dave (9664fc)

  49. December 5, 2001:

    https://www.nytimes.com/2001/12/05/world/nation-challenged-dissent-for-saudi-cleric-battle-shapes-up-infidel-vs-islam.html

    If Saudi officials know how many Saudis have been fighting in Afghanistan alongside Osama bin Laden and the Taliban, they will not say.

    The number, says Jamal Khashoggi, a leading Saudi journalist who is deputy editor in chief of the English-language Arab News, is certainly far less than the 15,000 or so Saudis who joined the jihad against Soviet forces in the 1980’s, but it is probably not insignificant.

    Sammy Finkelman (02a146)

  50. Dave @50. Well, that’s not what Trump is saying publicly.

    But it is true he praises Kim Jong Un now * – and Kim Jong Un murdered his brother in another country. But you expect this kind of thing from North Korea, or from Qaddafi, and they don;’t, or didn’t, pretend to be allies.

    ———————–
    * Does he think that Kim Jong Un will get rid of nuclear weapons just in order to get flattered by Donald Trump?

    Sammy Finkelman (02a146)

  51. Well, that’s not what Trump is saying publicly.

    Oh really?

    Trump on rebuking the Saudis over Khashoggi: He’s not a U.S. citizen, it didn’t happen here, and we have a $100 billion arms deal on the line

    Outraged tweets and personal insults are apparently reserved for real international villains like the PMs of Canada, the UK and Germany, who share our values and have been our allies for longer than most of us have been alive.

    Dave (9664fc)

  52. Dave @53. Thank you. Now I understand why Trumpkins here take callous attitude.

    nk (dbc370)

  53. @55 I don’t follow, could you elaborate?

    Dave (9664fc)

  54. Trump is actually planning to meet with the fiance of Kjamal Khashoggi.

    Here is some of what Trump said:

    https://factba.se/transcript/donald-trump-remarks-fema-briefing-hurricane-michael-october-10-2018

    Can I ask you about Jamal Khashoggi?

    Yes.

    Are you concerned that he’s dead? And do you hold the Saudi government responsible

    I would be certainly concerned. In fact, we have a call in to his wife.

    Do you think he’s dead, Mr. President?

    His wife wrote us a letter, and addressed it to my wife and myself. And we’re in contact with her now, and we want to bring her to the White House. It’s a very sad situation. It’s a very bad situation. And we want to get to the bottom of it.

    Do you think he’s dead, Mr. President?

    I don’t want to make — I don’t want to say that. I hope he’s not. I hope he’s not.

    Would you hold the Saudi government responsible?

    Well, I have to find out who did it. But people saw him go in but they didn’t see him come out, as they understand it. And we’re going to take a very serious look at it. It’s a terrible thing

    Have you spoken to the Saudis?72

    I’d rather not say. But the answer is yes. [Laughter]

    Can you give us a sense of when his wife, fiancée, might be coming to the White House, and your message to her?

    I would say fairly quickly. I would say fairly quickly. They’re in touch. You may speak to First Lady’s folks because they’re in touch, and she’ll be most likely coming to the White House. We’ll work on it together. It’s a terrible thing.

    Lindsey Graham says there will be hell to pay if the Saudis are, in fact, responsible. Do you share that view

    Well, Lindsey can speak for himself. But this is a bad situation. We cannot let this happen to reporters, to anybody. We can’t let this happen. And we’re going to get the bottom of it. Okay? But you may want to speak to the First Lady’s office about it.

    Mr. President, who did you talk to in the Saudi government?

    I’d rather not say, but at a very high level. The highest level. Let me say this: It’s the highest level.

    What would that be? The king?

    Inaudible] last couple days about this?

    Yeah. And more than once.

    You had mentioned that you spoke with King Salman. So, I mean, the highest level —

    Well, I do anyway. And I’ve always found him to be a fine man. We’ve had a very good relationship. I’m not happy about this. We have to see what happens. We have to see what happens. Nobody knows what happened yet. They don’t know over there. But it’s a very serious situation, and it’s something we’re taking very seriously. Okay?

    Sammy Finkelman (02a146)

  55. See I expected this stupid behavior from Hillary partisans who would throw an ally regime overboard even if they paid in advance.

    Narciso (29c306)

  56. All of this heat in the media is about one thing, and it ain’t justice. It’s all about putting DJT in a bind.

    The good guy Turks? Our good buddy NATO allies? Ask them if it is now permissable that the U.S. Government now formally recognizes the Armenian massacre by their hands. Then ask them if, just for S & G if they would allow, say, Michelle Malkin free and unfettered and free, with 1st Amendment-type protections, access to the inner workings of their current regime.

    Ed from SFV (6d42fa)

  57. @55 I don’t follow, could you elaborate?

    Your link gave me the impression that they were parroting Trump.

    But then, Sammy posted all of Trump’s remarks. So it appears that your link may have been wrong which means I was wrong, too.

    nk (dbc370)

  58. here this is adorable for today quavo and cardi and madonna

    i love president trump and i appreciate his leadership

    is that a bone saw in your pocket or you just happy to see me

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  59. NATO’s just a sick-and-sleazy rent-an-ally scheme where we pay a bunch of useless europeans to make pretendsies they’re our allies

    gay gay gay gay gay

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  60. “real international villains like the PMs of Canada, the UK and Germany, who share our values and have been our allies for longer than most of us have been alive.”

    All three of those have been huge proponents and enablers of the refugee crisis to gain allies for their moribund political parties at home against nationalist equivalents, so ‘values’ may just be an on-paper thing.

    As for whether their respective state intelligence agencies’ hands are clean with regard to action against US interests (and especially US elections,) hahahahahahahahhahahahanope.

    Pencil-necked Pundit (57aa5a)

  61. Your link gave me the impression that they were parroting Trump.

    But then, Sammy posted all of Trump’s remarks. So it appears that your link may have been wrong which means I was wrong, too.

    As you know, Trump rarely adopts a single position on any issue. I think Sammy’s remarks are from Wednesday, while my link (accurately) reflects Trump’s more recent comments yesterday (as you can verify by watching the embedded video).

    Dave (9664fc)

  62. Trump said something about this a number of times.

    It looks like the people who want action got to Trump through his wife.

    Dave (9664fc) — 10/12/2018 @ 1:06 pm

    I think Sammy’s remarks are from Wednesday, while my link (accurately) reflects Trump’s more recent comments yesterday (as you can verify by watching the embedded video).

    I don’t think he has contradicted himself. he gave the argument (in his lights) – I mean how important is an arms sale? – for avoiding doing something.

    If the argument for not doing anything is that Boeing or Lockheed or soembody will lose alittle busiens,s that’s not much of an argument, even for Trump. And of all the reasons for dealing with the Saudis, this is the most trivial. There’s not going to be any political reaction to cutting off an arms deal – which is actually not the intent anyway.

    What the United States needs to do is pressure King Salman to change the Crown Prince and some other people. Look at this – Trump’s talking to King Salman, not MbS.

    Sammy Finkelman (02a146)

  63. In other news, The United states lured aChinese official to belguim, and had him arrested and extradited. Industrial espionage apparently. And the president of Interpol, a recently appointed Chinese official (hes not the person who runs it though) was lured back to China and secretly arrested. Interpol has accepted his resignation.

    Sammy Finkelman (02a146)

  64. And then there was the war in yemen, where Saudi Arabia was ignoring U.S. advice, and insisted on bombing carelessly.

    Now hitting worthless targets is no help, and still worse hitting numerous civilians.

    Sammy Finkelman (02a146)

  65. Jamal Khashoggi entered the consulate on October 2. It took a few days for this to get noticed.

    Sammy Finkelman (02a146)

  66. As you can note from my latest links, the usual sources are set about destabilizing the kingdom.

    Narciso (d1f714)

  67. It will be very interesting to see substantiation of these allegations. The Saudis are much less inclined to target dissidents abroad than, say, Assad’s Syrian regime or revolutionary Iran. But if there’s even a grain of truth to what the Turks are saying it’s a helpful reminder that the US has few “nice” allies in the region (including the Turkish government).

    From the Times: ‘”A Turkish official told The Times: “It’s like a bad Russian job, a B-type crime movie. At first we assumed they were trying to make a statement but it looks like incompetence. We aren’t going to let this go and now Trump is on it too.”‘

    On the other hand…

    We’re sending weapons to a regime that created a humanitarian crisis in Yemen

    As corrupt and tyrannical as Saudi Arabia’s political leadership is, Riyadh did not create the humanitarian crisis in Yemen; Yemeni rebels, admittedly with a good deal of outside (primarily but not exclusively Iranian) help, did.

    Yemeni militant organisations (including a local branch of ISIS) are trying to destabilise the wider Gulf, not least by plundering what humanitarian aid was and is provided to the country. The pro-Houthi camp has attempted to sink oil tankers passing through the Red Sea and even laid sea mines around Hodeida, the main supply corridor for humanitarian aid to reach much of the mountainous areas of the Houthi-held north. To top it all off, the Houthis have fired ballistic missiles at Saudi cities, including at Mecca before the hajj.

    JP (f66836)

  68. Wall Street Shuffle Saudi Shuffle (10 CC)

    Do the Saudi shuffle
    Cut him up and shuffle
    Watch the media stumble
    Feel the Mullahs crumble

    You need a saw to make the cut
    If you wanna get even
    You need some luck, the Turks all suck
    If you wanna be Seagal, Steven
    You’ve gotta be cool with Salman

    You’ve gotta be cool with Salman
    When your profile is high
    Salman ain’t got time for teh bums
    They wind up in pieces with holes where their eyes were
    They put them in baggage, like it ain’t no crime
    It happens all teh time
    Doin’ the
    Doin’ the

    Colonel Haiku (1fcc64)

  69. OT from teh world of science… gives meaning to “sh*thouse mouse”…

    https://www.realclearscience.com/quick_and_clear_science/2018/10/11/scientists_attempt_to_clone_mice_from_poop.html

    Colonel Haiku (1fcc64)

  70. I know it was a whole month ago,

    https://pjmedia.com/homeland-security/wall-street-journal-runs-editorial-from-worlds-biggest-jailer-of-journalists/

    of course, not that long ago, trump was deemed a collaborator with turkey because one of the properties he leased from a former Erdogan rival, this was before the sanctions, and the apparent release of pastor Brunson,

    narciso (d1f714)

  71. JP (f66836) — 10/12/2018 @ 1:37 pm

    The Saudis are much less inclined to target dissidents abroad than, say, Assad’s Syrian regime or revolutionary Iran.

    MbS is new to power. And this was robably Plan B. They couldn’t kidnap him, so they killed him, thinking that would go undtected. And it was undetected. Until people noticed Jamal Khashoggi was missing. Actually at 7 pm his fiance called someone important in the Tirkish government.

    It’s not like they care about human life.

    They started (under a different leader) the new practice of targeting doctors who tresates people shot by a government. And Saudi Arabia is the main party responsible for 70 years of war or conflict in the Middle East. And lies and lies about it. And spread the ideology of terrorism.

    Sammy Finkelman (02a146)

  72. It is important to determine what is the lesser evil. But the U,.S. can’t operate like it has to tolerate anything.

    Sammy Finkelman (02a146)

  73. some perspective warranted,

    https://twitter.com/Doranimated

    I;ve pointed out in the past, that Nasser waged a brutal war with yemen as a crossroads in the early 60s, it was a very dirty war, one of many such conflicts, over the last 50 years,

    narciso (d1f714)

  74. Saffuri is not one of the main sourecs/

    It could be argueed that Trump was the reason Khashoggi was killed. He was trying to influence U.S. government policy toward Saudi Arabia. Acually there was a very small chance of that – but with Trump I guess anything is possible.

    So if he was killed because policy might change, policy shouldn’t change?

    Sammy Finkelman (02a146)

  75. It could be argued that Trump was the reason Khashoggi was killed.

    this is gonna be our first thanksgiving without Mr. Khashoggi

    but he’ll still be there in our hearts

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  76. and you’re sure of that how sammeh, how many named officials have been identified as sources,

    narciso (d1f714)

  77. “Actually there was a very small chance of that – but with Trump I guess anything is possible.“

    Yes… just think of teh possibilities!

    Colonel Haiku (1fcc64)

  78. well it does have in part to do with his former employee, prince talal, who is himself an actor in the proxy war against trump,

    narciso (d1f714)

  79. don’t ask me what this means:

    https://twitter.com/Nervana_1/status/1050854919518019585

    narciso (d1f714)

  80. And Saudi Arabia is the main party responsible for 70 years of war or conflict in the Middle East.

    As I have said to those who blame the world’s woes on America, or Israel, or Britain… Inshallah, if only that were the case.

    Yes, Saudi politics is emblematic of some pathologies that afflict the region. But the sad truth is that Riyadh’s soft power and ideological heft only went, and goes, so far over such vast distances. And the bloodiest cesspools of the Middle East are quite often those places in which Saudi influence is weak (western Iraq and most of Syria spring to mind).

    Yemen will suffer its own brand of dysfunctionality for the foreseeable future. Removing the Saudis from efforts to contain the fallout from Yemen’s various conflicts would in all likelihood make things worse there.

    JP (f66836)

  81. Well I might disagree influence of certain Saudis (like muhaysini) has been strong in the militant islamist militias in Syria Yemen libya et Al. They were are cold war proxy against nasser and later projects in central America.

    narciso (d1f714)

  82. But qatar, who had one of their own running operations in Afghanistan, who had proxies in libya and egypt

    https://www.al-monitor.com/pulse/originals/2018/09/turkey-court-former-nasa-scientist-prison.html

    narciso (d1f714)

  83. what if one of the bone saw people was wearing kaepercoozle nike shoozles and stepped in some khashoggi and you could follow his tracks to a private runway at the airport and bam the real culprit was sitting there in a hyundai getaway car and it wasn’t a saudi prince it was actually an fbi agent person named stephanie melenkevitz

    i bet not one of you people even considered this why

    cause of the rush to judgment

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  84. Hold up where did tobin bell enter the picture, Eli roth is a nasty piece of work, there are reasons why general intelligence might take this course, but evidence should matter in some way.

    narciso (d1f714)

  85. All right how about Dexter, the chamber of commerce really knows what its doing,

    narciso (d1f714)

  86. #67
    The Saudis thought they were hitting worthless civilians and after an internal investigation that took all of about 3 seconds concluded that all was as Allah had intended

    steveg (a9dcab)

  87. Shortest explainer:

    The Saudis, like most non-enterprising desert nations with a single major cash resource. have an oversupply of both princes and paupers, which they expend on pointless desert wars and palace intrigues to keep the population and competitors in line. Even if Salman didn’t order the hit, the ten thousand courtiers and enterprising functionaries are always alert for opportunities to bump off representatives of the less favored princes (Alwaleed in this case, Kashoggi even took that surname at one point) in favor of the ruling party.

    Everything you need to know about Saudi politics you could have learned from The Horse and His Boy.

    Pencil-Necked Pundit (8087ae)

  88. Possibly but al Sabah (the Turkish analogue to arabiya) ‘named’ a whole retinue of officials involved, why 15 (because that was the number of Saudi hijackers)

    Narciso (d1f714)

  89. If the Turks were able to positively identify every single Saudi official that’s some great intel work, big reason why the term ‘Deep State’ originally came from Turkish politics.

    Pencil-Necked Pundit (b97d8a)

  90. I see Uber is pulling out of a Saudi conference over this. Ouch. The burn. Lets see how those Princes get around Riyahd now… oh wait. They have drivers. and Lamborghinis.

    It’d be more impressive if Uber looked at a chart of its investors and returned any Saudi investment but regardless, I’m pretty sure the Saudis are gonna be just fine whether or not anyone from Uber returns their money or pulls off from a conference in an empty gesture.

    One way or another that $100B arms deal (if that’s what it is) will eventually go through after some wrist slapping and jaw flapping

    steveg (a9dcab)

  91. Yes, the Saudi business conference is petering out due to cancellations…. which has nothing whatsoever to do with our politics.

    Patricia (3363ec)

  92. I knew this but I forgot it. This kid wants to be king after his father dies, but that’s not the law in Saudi Arabia. The throne goes to the oldest living male descendant of the first Saud, not the oldest living male descendant of the reigning king. He has older relatives who are ahead of him in the line of succession. So that’s what this is all about. To establish his power and either change the rule or safely ensure that he is the oldest living male descendant of the first Saud. If you know what I mean and I think you do. Reformer! Snorfle!

    nk (dbc370)

  93. #97

    Broaden your definition of reformation to include reforming the make up of the competition by subtraction

    steveg (a9dcab)

  94. the dirty thai royals and the weirdo british royals are just as trashy and obscene as the saudi ones you know

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  95. Didn’t the Thais do something similar to this at a consulate in Britain?
    Maybe not the bone saw, but I think they grabbed a Thai off the street for insulting the Royal Thai family and tested their new electrical upgrades on his reproductive system

    steveg (a9dcab)

  96. The audio apparently comes from the iWatch Khashoggi took into the cinsultae (leaving his linked iPhone outside with his fiance. Are they bluffing about a video?

    The Sky Prime tail numbers of the jets are HZSK1 and HZSK2.

    trump did not talk to MbS. the NYT thought he didn’t talk to King Salman but he said he did. He will talk again.

    Before it was probably more in the form of asking quesitons and informing him.

    They’ll have to be very careful about what they say later.

    Sammy Finkelman (02a146)

  97. Kristof says some Saudis beat up some Saudi in London.

    Sammy Finkelman (02a146)

  98. 78. The U.S. wasn’t any kind of an ally of Nasser. the Societ Union was.

    Sammy Finkelman (02a146)

  99. Well sammeh I posted the op ed of al Ahmed a real dissident who has been threatened on any number of occasions neither the post nor the times were interested in his story.

    Narciso (dd8361)

  100. if you have turks come over you better buy a lot of cookies and you still won’t have enough cookies

    what’s with those people and cookies

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  101. Good question:

    https://israelnationalnews.com

    narciso (d1f714)

  102. The audio apparently comes from the iWatch Khashoggi took into the cinsultae (leaving his linked iPhone outside with his fiance. Are they bluffing about a video?

    This whole story is a hall of goddamned shattered mirrors.

    The Turkish claims haven’t been substantiated… but Khashoggi apparently didn’t leave the consulate.

    Saudi denials were quick off the mark… but are increasingly outlandish and weirdly clunky considering the usual slickness of the Saudi FM’s Twitter feed.

    The point has been made that given Turkey’s (particularly Erdogan’s) recent crackdowns on journalists and sudden disappearing of foreigners, if the Saudis did want Khashoggi sorted out (in one way or another), Ankara would be an ideal place to carry out such an operation.

    JP (61f1f3)

  103. It took them to figure out where this story came from Qatari sources laundered through Turkish outlets like Al Sarah, from anonymous sources who turn out to Al queda enabler a like Khalid saffuri, the original aljazeera admitted he had left the consulate but that was edited out.

    narciso (d1f714)

  104. It will be fun finding out just how much dreck that foreign (esp. US) journalists have repeated from various anonymous Turkish, Saudi, and Qatari sources.

    Hell throw in a pee tape bit or a Russian connection just to get the usual suspects drooling.

    JP (61f1f3)

  105. Narciso, thanks for that – still took it with a pound of salt as Arabiya is a Saudi outlet and it’s hard to see anything that can be independently confirmed out of this whole mess.

    JP (61f1f3)

  106. 108.The audio apparently comes from the iWatch Khashoggi took into the consultae (leaving his linked iPhone outside with his fiance.) Are they bluffing about a video?

    I actually had some caveats about that. There were some obvious problems with that iWatch story.

    1) First, just from the start, it was not being repeated on major media outlets. I heard it ony omnce on the radio, late on Saturday night. That could indicate reporters knew there was a problem.

    But sometimes stories don’t get that much circulation. I knew I needed more. (I later found the NEw York Post story from Sunday, which more or elss debunked it, but I hadn’t found it as of the time I left that message. The New York Post was still wrapped up in its home delivery bag and I hadn’t found it where I put it. I later did.)

    2) If he arranged to transmit what happened to his iPhone, his would probably have told his fiance about it. Yet she knew nothing about what happened to him.

    He walked into the consulate at 1 p.m (I see today, I knew yesterday it was midday) and she called a Turkish official (whom he had told her to call if he was detained or anything) at 7 pm. I knew it was something like 6 hours, and she had no idea.

    Now would he arrange for his conversation to be recorded and not tell her anything about it? Even supposing so, she has since told people Turkish officials did not tell her anything about any recording. I knew this was a problem, too. So again, it was important to keep on reading and listening.

    3) What is being claimed is not technically possible to do. I had a question about that too, and I’m not certain because the New York Post article (on page 10 of the Sunday paper, by Anthony Izaguirre “With Wires”) is not specific enough to say it is impossible.

    The iWatch has to be near a cell phone (incidently now I read he left *TWO* cellphones with his fiance)

    But how close? Do building walls matter? He was in a building – then a car went some 200 feet or yards away. The iPhone wouldn’t keep the recording but it would go to a cloud account.

    The iWatch can also upload data directly – the newer models – but you need WiFi (or else a form of cellular connection not used in Turkey.)

    The story comes from the Turkish newspaper Sabah.

    They also claimed that Saudi officials tried to delete the recordings in the cloud by using his fingerprint to unlock his iWatch! Apple iWatches do not have fingerpirnt security, and besides which that would mean they knew all about it, but if they did, they would have been on the alert.
    The whole thing is premised on the saudis not being familair with iWatches.

    Put all together, this is enough to probably rule out that story.

    Although it is possible that the consulate was bugged, and this is a cover story as to how they got the recording.

    Sammy Finkelman (02a146)

  107. These same media outlets reported that Tubaigy is an autopsy expert at Saudi Arabia’s internal security agency.

    The New York Times said:

    https://www.nytimes.com/2018/10/10/world/middleeast/jamal-khashoggi-saudi-turkey.html

    One of the men on the list published by the newspaper, Sabah, is an autopsy expert at Saudi Arabia’s internal security agency, according to the two Turkish officials. Another appears to be a lieutenant in the Royal Saudi Air Force. The officials, citing confidential intelligence, said all worked for the Saudi government…

    …The Times found corroborating information about two of the men — the lieutenant and the autopsy expert — by comparing the names and photographs in Sabah, the newspaper, with social media profiles and Saudi media reports…

    …Sabah published photographs of all 15 Saudis. One appears to be Salah Muhammad al-Tubaigy, the chief of forensic evidence and an autopsy expert in the public security directorate of the Interior Ministry. A photograph of a man entering Ataturk Airport shown in Sabah appears to match photos shared online of Mr. Tubaigy.

    Another Saudi identified in Sabah, Meshal Saad al-Bostani, appears to be a Saudi Air Force lieutenant who was born in 1987. A photograph of a man at the airport appears to match photos on the Facebook profile of a man with the same name who says he studied at the University of Louisville.

    Sammy Finkelman (02a146)

  108. Yeah this is still a mess but it looks like Riyadh still has a lot of ‘splainin to do.

    JP (61f1f3)

  109. It seems like Saudi Arabia hasn’t officially claimed that it was botched interrogation.

    This is thelatest news:

    https://www.cnn.com/2018/10/16/middleeast/khashoggi-turkish-investigation-intl/index.html

    Sammy Finkelman (02a146)

  110. Rush Limbaugh discussed the iPhone’s capabilities:

    https://www.rushlimbaugh.com/daily/2018/10/16/did-khashoggis-apple-watch-record-the-murder/

    Sammy Finkelman (02a146)

  111. I have lots on Jamal Khashoggi. Rush doesn’t have it all right He wss Adnan’s nephew not cousin

    https://www.rushlimbaugh.com/daily/2018/10/16/bankrupt-left-wants-to-pin-khashoggi-murder-on-trump/

    Sammy Finkelman (02a146)

  112. So where are we now?

    Sammy Finkelman (02a146)

  113. Ah sammeh Dr. Tubaigy was last in turkey in 2013, yes Jamal was also dodi fayeds brother,

    Narciso (d1f714)

  114. The times corrected they could not confirm many of the identifications presented by daily sabah.

    Narciso (d1f714)

  115. 121. Jamal Khashoggi was Dodi Fayeds cousin. Its hard to get anything straight.

    What we know about Dr. Tubaigy is that he was identified by Turkey as one of the people who came to Istanbul at the beginning of thsi month. But so far no real confirmation or even official statement from Turkey.

    Sammy Finkelman (02a146)

  116. The New York Times reported who some of the people claimed to have come to Istanbul were. They never said they could confirm the official positions or even existence of more than several.

    Sammy Finkelman (02a146)


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