Patterico's Pontifications

9/10/2018

Freshman Students (More Likely Their Parents) Recoil from the Coddling of the American Mind at Evergreen State College

Filed under: General — Patterico @ 6:42 pm

An atmosphere of moral panic has taken root at colleges across the country, as “social justice warriors” form roving mobs that surround and harass good people like Nicholas Christakis at Yale, or Bret Weinstein at Evergreen State College in Washington State. If you never saw the clip of Bret Weinstein trying to reason with a pack of SJWs, take a few minutes and watch it now:

The administration at ESC did not back up Weinstein at all, and he ended up leaving — a story typical of these types of encounters.

At Hot Air, John Sexton reports that enrollment at Evergreen State College is waaaaay down. Sexton quotes a professor who supported Weinstein (a lefty, but one I respect) as follows:

This fall, we expect less than 300 freshmen to attend Evergreen, a fifty percent drop from two years ago. It is the only four year institution in the state of Washington that has seen a decrease in applications, and is currently publicly funded for 4200 students, far greater than this year’s anticipated total attending class of 2800.

Couldn’t happen to a nicer group of folks.

One would like to think this will take place at other colleges where SJWs are out of control, but it seems unlikely. (Never say never!) Most of those colleges are among the most elite institutions in the country, and nothing is likely to change.

Unless it does.

The topic of the infantilization of the American college student (and, increasingly, college students in other English-speaking countries) is the topic of a new book that I began reading today: The Coddling of the American Mind: How Good Intentions and Bad Ideas Are Setting Up a Generation for Failure (affiliate link). It is by Jonathan Haidt (Hi! I’m Jonathan Haidt! You may remember me from such books as The Righteous Mind!) and FIRE President Greg Lukianoff. Count on a review in the (probably near) future. So far it’s excellent.

My oldest goes off to college in just a couple of weeks. She has a strong mind and will resist this sort of nonsense. But young people like her are in short supply these days. Something has to change. At Evergreen State College, it looks like parents are demanding something better. Good for them.

[Cross-posted at The Jury Talks Back.]

144 Responses to “Freshman Students (More Likely Their Parents) Recoil from the Coddling of the American Mind at Evergreen State College”

  1. Ding.

    Patterico (115b1f)

  2. social justice warriors antifa other leftys have kicked the corporate establishment democrats like grifter hillary clinton to the curb! pelosi schumer are next.

    lany (31c26d)

  3. Other than Macklemore, the most famous alumni from Evergreen State College was Rachel Corrie, who didn’t have the sense to get out of the way of a bulldozer. As a lifelong Puget Sound resident, we always looked at it as a joke school, barely a cut above community college.

    Paul Montagu (9dcfd2)

  4. If I remember correctly which school without hitting the archives…tell her to steer clear of the Preet Bharara visit in October. I sure as hell enjoyed the longer than customary summer between getting my B.A in May and entering the then quarter/late September tOSU for grad.

    urbanleftbehind (77f429)

  5. I had a coworker from Evergreen State, total tree hugger/urban cyclist…after her stint in Chicago,she and her Beta husband ended up in some part of Oregon where she had a local planning job and the hubby worked in a….logging mill.

    urbanleftbehind (77f429)

  6. What about David Duke or similar scum? Should anyone be able to just attempt to spread their bigotry? I think you have to draw a line somewhere. Letting someone speak at a college who is only there trying to create racists is not education, but its opposite.

    Tillman (d34303)

  7. I see that Weinstein is getting heat for not conforming to the program. (A bunch of college kids will act like kids sometimes you know.)

    Here is what happens when you don’t conform to the program in Dear Leader’s warped world:
    https://www.cnn.com/videos/politics/2018/09/08/plaid-shirt-guy-trump-rally-sot-ctn-vpx.cnn

    Tillman (d34303)

  8. “What about David Duke or similar scum? Should anyone be able to just attempt to spread their bigotry? I think you have to draw a line somewhere. Letting someone speak at a college who is only there trying to create racists is not education, but its opposite.

    You bring him in, let him spout his nonsense and then laugh him out of the building with facts, its what adults do. And humiliation is tough to deal with – most will never come back.

    The problem is the campus Thought Police now brand anyone they disagree with a nazi, racist or hatemonger. Ben Shapiro and Charles Murray are branded modern day Hitlers (as is Trump). The people who do that are as ridiculous as Duke so why should they be allowed on campus?

    But since you seem to want to say who should and should not be allowed on campus, what say you about these Evergreen pixies patrolling with baseball bats for people not sufficiently ‘woke’? Should they be welcome?

    https://media.breitbart.com/media/2017/06/evergreen-bats-twitter-640×480.jpg

    harkin (fb7ea4)

  9. A guy sitting behind Trump is making faces and they 86 him…..democracy is dead. Lololol

    harkin (fb7ea4)

  10. I confess I don’t understand the full story of Weinstein and ESC, but I’ve taught long enough to know that standing in a hallway and engaging in a shouting a match with a mob of a dozen or more angry, foul-mouthed students has zero probability of ending well.

    That he felt otherwise does not speak well of his judgment.

    Dave (445e97)

  11. For you as a prayer over your soon to be freshman:

    Isaiah 41:10 (NIV) So do not fear, for I am with you; do not be dismayed, for I am your God. I will strengthen you and help you; I will uphold you with my righteous right hand.

    steveg (a9dcab)

  12. I confess I don’t understand the full story of Weinstein and ESC, but I’ve taught long enough to know that standing in a hallway and engaging in a shouting a match with a mob of a dozen or more angry, foul-mouthed students has zero probability of ending well.

    That he felt otherwise does not speak well of his judgment.

    It’s about as quixotic as trying to have a discussion in the comments section of a political blog.

    But without discussion, the only alternative is force of one variety or another.

    Patterico (115b1f)

  13. At the same time, Dave, you’re quite right — and the trick is always to try to assess when it’s pointless to have the discussion. I think in this case, Weinstein should have made that assessment earlier. But I still have a certain admiration for him for trying.

    Patterico (115b1f)

  14. harkin, I have no idea about that picture. For all I know they’re holding the bats in self-defense.

    Maybe a debate would work, but as Captain Chaos has so sadly proved, some people are too gullible and don’t know how to check facts. Letting scum like Duke talk would influence some in the wrong way, and it isn’t a college’s business to let any scumbag push their sick ideas on others.

    Tillman (d34303)

  15. Tillman,

    I think you raise a tricky question. I think it’s legitimate to ask whether a speaker really has something interesting to offer, since there are only so many speaking spots. On the other hand, I worry about having the administration make a judgment that someone has nothing to offer, in a situation where you suspect that the only reason for that decision is the opposition of the administration to the speaker’s politics. Also, you run the risk of romanticizing bad people by explicitly “banning” them on the basis of their views.

    In the end, it’s a judgment call, like most decisions in this old world.

    By the way, I see the function of a college as different from, say, an organization like CPAC. While CPAC might want to have some diversity of views, inviting a speaker makes a statement about CPAC and its general views. I would object to Duke speaking at CPAC (where his presence makes a statement about CPAC in particular and even, in the mind of many Americans, about conservatives) more than I would object to his speaking at a university, where in an ideal world (ha!) he would either be ignored or out-reasoned and embarrassed.

    But you deal with the world as it is, not as you’d like it to be.

    Obviously.

    Patterico (115b1f)

  16. A guy sitting behind Trump is making faces and they 86 him…..democracy is dead. Lololol

    He was “de-platformed”!!!!11!!!!!!11!

    Patterico (115b1f)

  17. But without discussion, the only alternative is force of one variety or another.

    Well, in his case there were other possibilities that might have promoted more constructive communication.

    He could have agreed to a slightly more structured meeting with everyone seated around a table, where the students would take turns speaking, for instance.

    He might have also asked the students to draft a list of concerns in writing, and then responded in writing himself.

    Even a dozen mature, reasonable people can’t hope to have a constructive discussion when everybody talks at once and screams to make themselves heard. It’s guaranteed to fail.

    Dave (445e97)

  18. For you as a prayer over your soon to be freshman:

    Isaiah 41:10 (NIV) So do not fear, for I am with you; do not be dismayed, for I am your God. I will strengthen you and help you; I will uphold you with my righteous right hand.

    Thank you, steveg.

    Patterico (115b1f)

  19. You’re right, Dave. Discussion is the only alternative to force, but discussion can take many forms.

    Patterico (115b1f)

  20. Like mockery and insults. It’s all the rage these days.

    DejectedHead (775d48)

  21. As Patterico knows from personal communication over the years, I know quite a bit about the Evergreen and related situations. Weinstein and his wife are progressives who have learned a very hard lesson. They say as much, by the way. I have no idea how they will salvage any kind of academic career. And over what is essentially silliness…but silliness that could have easily led to violence.

    One of the things I care for the least these days is reactive and uninformed speech. I know for a fact that the person who was commenting on Weinstein’s situation thusly…

    That he felt otherwise does not speak well of his judgment.

    …hasn’t spent much time looking into it. Certainly, the commenter was not thoughtful or fair in such a criticism.

    I think that many people—I certainly have learned this lesson harshly in the past—would benefit from actually looking into the situation about which they comment.

    Regarding Weinstein and his wife, I strongly urge people to listen to them about what happened.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-fEAPcgxnyY

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pf5fAiXYr08

    https://www.thestranger.com/features/2018/05/24/26472992/after-evergreen

    And so much more, from perspectives on the Left and on the Right. But no matter what “side” a reader sits, there is no doubt that Weinstein did very little that could be characterized as “wrong,” let alone “in bad judgement.”

    Now, some might return that Weinstein should have done X or Y, or had the selfsame “bad judgement.” But the people saying that were not there. Weinstein was. And Weinstein paid the price.

    There is a lesson about what is wrong with our political discourse, in a nutshell. The protesters didn’t even know much about Weinstein. They were stirred up by ethnocrats on campus. That happens throughout our political ecosystem, on the Right and on the Left, these days.

    It’s a sobering lesson for all of us.

    Simon Jester (b90f94)

  22. “it isn’t a college’s business to let any scumbag push their sick ideas on others.”

    Apparently you haven’t been paying attention to what has been going on in education for the last generation or two. Check, now airbags are trying to push their sick ideas on grade school children.

    lee (5789d5)

  23. Autocorrect strikes!

    *Heck, now scumbags are trying…*

    lee (5789d5)

  24. And yes, it is costing the institution in terms of enrollment. This has happened in several places that didn’t handle the kind of situation posted her carefully. Me, I’m with the following, from John 3:20:

    “For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.”

    The administrators at Evergreen were furious about the videos, for exactly that reason. I like them.

    I actually said the above once to a student, and was told they weren’t interested in Zionist white speech.

    I just replied that they weren’t interested in discussion (I didn’t address their education). Because, as a very wise man once told me (the first black head of the National Science Foundation), “Some people would rather have a cause than an effect.

    It’s so much easier to chant and hate than to listen and think. And we call all see that ethos infecting our culture, on both the Right and the Left.

    Simon Jester (b90f94)

  25. As for the book, it’s probably a good read, but I hope he doesn’t imagine the coddling hasn’t been going on for a very long time. I knew where we were headed 30 years ago when the whole self esteem movement went mainstream.

    lee (5789d5)

  26. lee, assuming your source is correct, two wrongs make a right? I don’t think so.

    Ergo:

    They don’t teach our children to hate gay people, so let’s let bigots spew their bile all over our college campuses in the name of “free speech”?

    Should we let the flat-Earther’s speak too, or our democracy will fail? Um, don’t think so.

    Tillman (d34303)

  27. Never thought id hear thinking people blaming Weinstein for what went down at Evergreen. Incredible.

    harkin (fb7ea4)

  28. He was “de-platformed”!!!!11!!!!!!11!

    Comparing moving a guy making faces to the practice of technical banishment of conservatives from views on social media….

    So pure.

    harkin (fb7ea4)

  29. Andrew made these type of encounters work very well. The key is to not care about any power, real or imagined, those whom you encounter may have over you. It is also crucial, if not essential, that one be sure of one’s motivation and arguments/data. If it’s truly about proclaiming truth for truth’s sake, cool. If it’s about ego, or perhaps gaining power for yourself? Don’t.

    I struggle with this from time to time. I do know it is outrageously freeing when I do engage with “purity.” I’ve also paid when I failed to correctly discern alternative motive within.

    Ed from SFV (6d42fa)

  30. “I have no idea about that picture. For all I know they’re holding the bats in self-defense.”

    Not really

    “Endress, in her June 5 email to colleagues, asked them to counsel students to “embrace choices that de-escalates.” She goes on to cite an email she received from an Evergreen professor who is concerned for one of her pupils.

    The Evergreen student had told the professor that “Because I had shown some criticism to the protest that was occurring on campus in earlier weeks I have become targeted and harassed by a wide number of students on campus. Recently there have been a number of students who patrol lower campus with weapons like baseball bats and tasers who claim to be making the campus safer but in reality are making campus more hostile.”

    “The latest developments come at a school where students in early May screamed at and harassed a white professor for not leaving campus on an anti-white “Day of Absence.” Shortly after that, the professor, Bret Weinstein, was forced to flee campus and hold his class in a local park after police told him it’s not safe for him to be on campus. More recently some faculty have demanded Weinstein be punished for allegedly provoking a “white supremacist backlash” against the school.
    __ _

    “Maybe a debate would work, but as Captain Chaos has so sadly proved, some people are too gullible and don’t know how to check facts. Letting scum like Duke talk would influence some in the wrong way, and it isn’t a college’s business to let any scumbag push their sick ideas on others.”

    Yeah, god forbid college students should be asked to perform critical thinking. Next thing you know they’ll need play-doh, coloring books and puppies (and oh yeah, exams postponed) to deal with election results.

    harkin (fb7ea4)

  31. harkin, the similarity is: don’t make waves in a partisan environment, or you will be removed.

    ‘You think that death threats on professors are infringing on free speech too? This article was dated in December of last year:

    In the past year, more than 100 incidents of targeted harassment against professors have been reported on college campuses, according to the American Association of University Professors.
    — A California professor at Orange Coast College who was captured on video in the classroom criticizing President Donald Trump got death threats, according to The Washington Post.
    — CBS News reported a Princeton professor received death threats after giving a commencement speech in which she called Trump a “racist and sexist megalomaniac.”
    — A University of Iowa professor was targeted after discussing white supremacy in the context of ancient statues and their use of white marble, InsideHigherEd.com says.
    “Historically, it’s been conservative professors who have faced retaliation and disciplinary threats, and harassment for offending people,” said Ari Cohn, director of the Individual Rights Defense Program for the nonprofit Foundation for Individual Rights in Education.
    “I think over the course of the past year, as liberal faculty members have become increasingly outspoken with their criticism of the Trump administration, you have seen more professors on the left being targeted.”

    https://www.cnn.com/2017/12/21/us/university-professors-free-speech-online-hate-threats/index.html

    Tillman (d34303)

  32. Tillman, that was more snark than an endorsement of Duke speaking at a college. Thing is though, all kinds of crap is presented by speakers at colleges. Where to draw the line is pretty subjective. But free speech wasn’t included in the bill of rights for speech we all agree with. If we are not going to allow all viewpoints, then who gets to decide which ones are censored? Once we figure that out, do they also get to decide who can peacefully assemble, petition the government for grievances, practice their religion?

    Freedom isn’t always easy or pretty, but either you believe in it or you don’t.

    lee (5789d5)

  33. …god forbid college students should be asked to perform critical thinking.

    Don’t forget that Freshmen are there who have not learned enough to think very critically yet.

    Tillman (d34303)

  34. lee, Colleges and universities are not there to be microcosms of our democracy. Let others speak where they may.

    But learning institutions do have to protect their reputation by refusing people who are sickos and dunderheads from speaking. You can find all kinds of kooks out there and universities have been good at weeding them out, thank you very much.

    Tillman (d34303)

  35. Feel free to link me a comparable list for conservatives:

    http://www.fakehatecrimes.org

    harkin (fb7ea4)

  36. Back in the olden days, as Patterico will attest, universities had to shun snake-oil salesmen too. But that was a bad thing?

    Tillman (d34303)

  37. You can find all kinds of kooks out there and universities have been good at hiring many of them, especially in diversity programs and the humanities, thank you very much.

    https://www.eastbaytimes.com/2017/05/24/berkeley-college-professor-arrested-as-assault-suspect/

    harkin (fb7ea4)

  38. harkin, why do you hate higher education?

    Tillman (d34303)

  39. Tillman, do you know how many colleges and universities Louis Farrakhan has given speeches at?

    lee (5789d5)

  40. lee, how many?

    Tillman (d34303)

  41. Google it. Lots.

    lee (5789d5)

  42. I see 1 – Howard so far. Big deal.

    Tillman (d34303)

  43. Comparing moving a guy making faces to the practice of technical banishment of conservatives from views on social media….

    So pure.

    harkin (fb7ea4) — 9/10/2018 @ 9:33 pm

    In neither case is a platform owed to anyone.

    Patterico (52aafa)

  44. Never thought id hear thinking people blaming Weinstein for what went down at Evergreen. Incredible.

    I’m not blaming him. I’m saying he should not have been surprised at the result given the crowd he was dealing with. They were not there for discussion, just like that trigger guy was not here for discussion.

    Patterico (52aafa)

  45. “harkin, why do you hate higher education?

    Lolol ad hominem at its finest. And the opposite of an educated response.

    Bust out the play-doh, you’re overwhelmed by unreasoned emotion.

    harkin (fb7ea4)

  46. Were you really referring to me, harkin? I wonder how anyone could read this post and actually believe I was blaming Weinstein. You’re not that unfair, are you?

    Patterico (52aafa)

  47. “In neither case is a platform owed to anyone”.

    Yes, so you said. I completely disagree as to the comparability of damage done.

    harkin (fb7ea4)

  48. Weinstein attempted to have a rational discussion, i really cant blame him for not knowing his safety would be threatened, you say he should have known better.

    Lets just disagree.

    harkin (fb7ea4)

  49. @37 harkin

    Wow, what a great list. The top entry:

    “This had nothing to do with racism / Not really a fake hate crime, but a false complaint of racism. A Nigerian doctor was struck off in the UK for incompetence, claimed it was racism, and won. / 2018-08-20″

    Reading down a bit:

    “The Rubin Report / Candace Owens – ‘RedPillBlack’ – describes how a feminist tried to persuade her to abandon her online project, to expose online bullies, because she would get threats from white supremacist men. Shortl / 2017-09-28″

    This is what’s known as a https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gish_gallop

    Davethulhu (fddbc4)

  50. Im surprised at people who say you just cant depend on college kids to not be swayed by David Duke or to conduct themselves in a civil manner.

    Dood, where’s my country?

    harkin (fb7ea4)

  51. Davethulu:

    You forgot to copy these:

    “11-year-old Canadian girl claimed her hijab was ripped off of her. Now, “After a detailed investigation, police have determined that the events described in the original news release did not happen.”

    “Waiter who got customer barred for ‘we don’t tip terrorist’ message ‘fabricated the entire story’

    “taged racist vandalism, Navy says / Black sailor vandalizes his own rack with racial slurs. NCIS investigation concludes the alleged victim staged the vandalism himself. / 2017-12-08”

    And hundreds more.

    Ill take your response as a ‘no, i cant supply a comparable list’

    harkin (fb7ea4)

  52. My response is: “your list is garbage”, so yeah, I can’t find a comparable list.

    Davethulhu (fddbc4)

  53. Archaeologists discover earliest known example of Guitar Hero

    Pinandpuller (c40f1c)

  54. You’re not trying. Just a quick look gives me TCU, Berkley, Morgan State, Howard, Tennessee State, Tuskegee, Huntsville, Chicago State, University of Arkansas, Alabama A&M…and I got tired of it. The dudes had college speaking tours, the last in 2017 I think.

    Should he be not allowed?

    lee (5789d5)

  55. “My response is: “your list is garbage”, so yeah, I can’t find a comparable list.”

    Your response is comparable to covering your ears and screeching, well played lol.

    harkin (fb7ea4)

  56. Weinstein attempted to have a rational discussion, i really cant blame him for not knowing his safety would be threatened, you say he should have known better.

    Lets just disagree.

    harkin (fb7ea4) — 9/10/2018 @ 10:18 pm)

    Even better, let’s have you stop importing false assumptions as part of your argument. I never said a word about his safety or implied I was blaming him for not knowing his safety would be threatened. I just said he probably could have realized he was dealing with an unreasoning mob sooner, and realized that the notion that he was going to have a productive discussion with that lot under those circumstances was pretty fanciful.

    The students are the assholes but at a certain point you accept you can’t reason with assholes.

    Just like I can’t reason with people who make false accusations against me. So cut it out already. Be charitable and stop trying to score cheap points by attributing to me positions I do not hold. It’s annoying.

    Patterico (52aafa)

  57. We’re on the same side here but you still insist on fighting — and using unfair tactics to do so.

    Why??

    Patterico (52aafa)

  58. Yes, so you said. I completely disagree as to the comparability of damage done.

    Jesus. It was a freaking joke.

    Patterico (52aafa)

  59. You’re very unpleasant sometimes.

    Patterico (52aafa)

  60. Tillman, college students need to man up and woman up and think for themselves. They should not be protected from ideas.

    Patterico (52aafa)

  61. Once a place where the free exchange of ideas was an ideal, an objective, many universities have lost sight of what an education consists of.

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  62. Weinstein attempted to have a rational discussion, i really cant blame him for not knowing his safety would be threatened, you say he should have known better.

    Lets just disagree.

    harkin (fb7ea4) — 9/10/2018 @ 10:18 pm

    Sounds a lot like Slut Shaming.

    Pinandpuller (c40f1c)

  63. You’re not trying. Just a quick look gives me TCU, Berkley, Morgan State, Howard, Tennessee State, Tuskegee, Huntsville, Chicago State, University of Arkansas, Alabama A&M…and I got tired of it. The dudes had college speaking tours, the last in 2017 I think.

    Should he be not allowed?

    lee (5789d5) — 9/10/2018 @ 10:32 pm

    To be fair, TSU is a place where anybody is physically at risk of violence.

    Pinandpuller (c40f1c)

  64. Should this guy be allowed to speak at colleges?

    H.K. Edgerton Speaks on Southern Heritage

    Pinandpuller (c40f1c)

  65. “Your response is comparable to covering your ears and screeching, well played lol.”

    https://ucr.fbi.gov/hate-crime/2016 6,121 incidents
    https://ucr.fbi.gov/hate-crime/2015 5,850 incidents
    https://ucr.fbi.gov/hate-crime/2014 5,479 incidents
    https://ucr.fbi.gov/hate-crime/2013 5,928 incidents
    https://ucr.fbi.gov/hate-crime/2012 5,790 incidents
    https://ucr.fbi.gov/hate-crime/2011 6,216 incidents
    https://ucr.fbi.gov/hate-crime/2010 6,624 incidents

    7 years, 42,000 incidents, versus the 339 (over a longer time span) fakes in your list.

    Your list is garbage, and also statistically insignificant.

    Davethulhu (fddbc4)

  66. @58 Harkin

    (my first response ended up in moderation for some reason, here’s a summary)

    Adding up the incidents from here: https://www.fbi.gov/investigate/civil-rights/hate-crimes

    7 years, 42,000 incidents, versus the 339 (over a longer time span) fakes in your list.

    Your list is garbage, and also statistically insignificant.

    Davethulhu (fddbc4)

  67. “I never said a word about his safety or implied I was blaming him for not knowing his safety would be threatened. I just said he probably could have realized he was dealing with an unreasoning mob sooner,”

    Im sorry, when i see the term ‘unreasoned mob’, I feel that the possibility of violence is implied and saying he should have acted differently or gotten the heck out of there sooner is in fact blaming him in a way. You did say this:

    “and the trick is always to try to assess when it’s pointless to have the discussion. I think in this case, Weinstein should have made that assessment earlier”

    If thats not blaming him for staying too long, i read you wrong, but it sure sounds that way.

    IMO he is completely blameless for everything that happened there. I am not trying to attribute to you positions you do not hold, if im reading you wrong maybe its not all my fault.

    “You’re very unpleasant sometimes.”

    I have picked up a few times you feel that way. I can only say sometimes i feel the same about you.

    harkin (fb7ea4)

  68. Davethlu

    Interesting stats:

    “In 2016, race was reported for 5,770 known hate crime offenders. Of these offenders:

    46.3 percent were White.
    26.1 percent were Black or African American”

    Blacks are 13% of the US population but 26.1% of hate crime offenders.

    I think at some colleges for citing that fact you are committing a hate crime.

    harkin (fb7ea4)

  69. 69- So in a country of over 300 million, there’s about 6000 “reported incidents” (does that mean resulting in convictions, I couldn’t tell?) a year. That’s actually a pretty small statistic seems to me. Especially when the incidents are based on something as slippery as motivation. I mean, how do we know some of those incidents weren’t just a misunderstanding over the OK sign?

    lee (5789d5)

  70. Now, some might return that Weinstein should have done X or Y, or had the selfsame “bad judgement.”

    Since I live in the area, I’ve followed this fairly closely and I don’t see how Weinstein can be faulted. The real person at fault is the school president for not sticking up for a professor on staff and for letting students get away with bullying.

    Paul Montagu (6e5d8b)

  71. 72- plus, i asked him to supply a list of hate crime hoaxes comparable for conservatives and he conveniently forgets the ‘hoax’ part.

    Apples and bowling balls. Standard diversion tactic.

    harkin (fb7ea4)

  72. @72 harkin

    You’re moving goalposts.

    @73 lee
    “That’s actually a pretty small statistic seems to me. ”

    Good point, it makes harkin’s list of 339 “fakes” even more ridiculous.

    “how do we know some of those incidents weren’t just a misunderstanding over the OK sign?”

    You could read the link: “the FBI has defined a hate crime as a “criminal offense against a person or property motivated in whole or in part by an offender’s bias against a race, religion, disability, sexual orientation, ethnicity, gender, or gender identity.” Hate itself is not a crime—and the FBI is mindful of protecting freedom of speech and other civil liberties.

    Davethulhu (fddbc4)

  73. @75

    Your list is statistical noise. It’s meaningless.

    Davethulhu (fddbc4)

  74. There’s something called the Clery Act which makes it hard to cover up the racial statistics of crimes on college campuses.

    The secret behind the infamous Evergreen video- Colin Flaherty

    Pinandpuller (c40f1c)

  75. The problem I have is black people are supposed to be cultural innovators and they’re recycling old and busted “Hey Hey Ho Ho” chants. WTF is wrong with them?

    Pinandpuller (c40f1c)

  76. I’m gonna make a bet.

    When cutting back because of the student shortfall, NONE of the administration staff will be cut, even though it was the administration calling the shots in this clustermishap.

    Further, NONE of the radical-left professors will go either. It will be the lecturers, the assistant professors and anyone who criticized the mob.

    Kevin M (5d3e49)

  77. Letting scum like Duke talk would influence some in the wrong way, and it isn’t a college’s business to let any scumbag push their sick ideas on others.

    You sell the students short. Having some asshat talk is fine, so long as you insist that he have a Q&A afterwards. The students need to learn critical thinking and walking, talking red meat a fine way to do it.

    I went to a STEM college of some repute. We had people like Feynman, Pauling and Arthur Clarke come to give lectures (some time back). And we also had a guy come from the Creation Institute.

    We listened respectfully to all, but the Q&A portions were markedly different.

    Kevin M (5d3e49)

  78. In neither case is a platform owed to anyone.

    In CA, the public square is owed to all.

    Kevin M (5d3e49)

  79. Patterico–

    As to your freshman, I’m sure that you and your wife gave her a good understanding of the world and she’ll be fine. And remember, the best parts of college have utterly nothing to do with politics.

    Kevin M (5d3e49)

  80. Just to be clear, in my post #11, I wasn’t blaming Weinstein for the problems at ESG. I was reacting to the video, which I had just watched for the first time, and commenting on what a predictably hopeless exercise that little corner of the dumpster-fire was. I don’t think he handled that particular encounter well (despite his apparent good intentions); but I don’t know the full background.

    Dave (445e97)

  81. That’s like 3 schools of 10 that aren’t “stepping” schools, but then Farrakhan to me was just an Apollo comedian with a small army, an army that needed a couple of MOVE incidents to crawl back into the front pews of their former Baptist or A.M.E. church the following Sunday.

    urbanleftbehind (77f429)

  82. So if Farrakhans’ appearances, at those Historically Black Colleges/Universities has dried up since Spring of 2017, can that be a success attributed to PDJT and perhaps Kellyanne twerk girl (the infamous couch photo was at this meeting).

    urbanleftbehind (77f429)

  83. Only staight A students with full course loads should be allowed to organize and attend lectures by guest lecturers. They have presumably learned all that the school can teach them (for the time being anyway) and can benefit from other sources. The rest should be in a quiet place doing their homework.

    nk (dbc370)

  84. Ohio State University did it right, THIS is how you should handle student protests at University:

    “And we want to have dialogue. We want the dialogue to extend beyond tonight. But if you refuse to leave, then you will be charged with a student code of conduct violation.And I’m telling you this now because I want you to have good thought and careful consideration. If you’re here at 5 a.m. we will clear the building and you will be arrested. And we will give you the opportunity to go to jail for your beliefs. Our police officers will physically pick you up, take you to a paddywagon, and take you to be jail.”

    https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2016/04/ohio-state-turns-the-concept-of-safe-space-against-student-protesters/478221/

    bendover (8f3556)

  85. And what kind of lectures are we talking about anyway? The safe level of voltage and amperage when rewiring an electrical outlet? What pressure your car’s tires should be at? Is it ever safe to cook hamburger and sausages other than well done? Anything worth knowing, in other words? No, it’s sophomoric, half-baked political and social philosophy. Take it to a soapbox in a park, won’t you?

    nk (dbc370)

  86. 88, I think “we will blacklist you and you will never EVAH get to sit in one of these here cubicles, let alone an office with a window, if you don’t vacate the premises” would have worked just as well.

    urbanleftbehind (77f429)

  87. Must be an Ohio thing, Kent State could have been a lot worse, had some faculty not sternly warned the crowd to disperse after the front rank’s initial fusillade.

    From Wikipedia Kent State Shootings:

    Immediately after the shootings, many angry students were ready to launch an all-out attack on the National Guard. Many faculty members, led by geology professor and faculty marshal Glenn Frank, pleaded with the students to leave the Commons and to not give in to violent escalation:

    I don’t care whether you’ve never listened to anyone before in your lives. I am begging you right now. If you don’t disperse right now, they’re going to move in, and it can only be a slaughter. Would you please listen to me? Jesus Christ, I don’t want to be a part of this … !

    urbanleftbehind (77f429)

  88. “and the trick is always to try to assess when it’s pointless to have the discussion. I think in this case, Weinstein should have made that assessment earlier”

    If thats not blaming him for staying too long, i read you wrong, but it sure sounds that way.

    IMO he is completely blameless for everything that happened there. I am not trying to attribute to you positions you do not hold, if im reading you wrong maybe its not all my fault.

    “You’re very unpleasant sometimes.”

    I have picked up a few times you feel that way. I can only say sometimes i feel the same about you.

    Apply the principle of charity, realize I am on the same side as you with this issue, stop trying to do gotchas, and maybe you’ll find you’re misreading me less. You’re actively looking for something to get angry at me about. If you go about reading this blog with that attitude, you can certainly find something to be angry at me about, especially if you view my every statement with so much suspicion that you read implications into things that I never intended.

    Pretend I’m Donald Trump and read my words as charitably as you’d read his. You’ll find it to be relevatory.

    Patterico (115b1f)

  89. For example, harkin, say I went into the fever swamps of, say, a Raw Story comment section to defend something Donald Trump said or did, and I got swarmed by a bunch of crazed leftists, some of whom threatened my job. Now I assume I come back here and talk about the experience, and you say: “Gee, Patterico, the comment section there sure is an unreasoning mob. That said, what did you expect? It’s Raw Story!”

    Would it be fair of me to reply:

    HARKIN IS BLAMING ME FOR LEFTISTS THREATENING MY JOB!!!1!

    No.

    This is like that. I wrote a post totally sympathetic to Weinstein. Dave observed that Weinstein shouldn’t have expected much different, and I said Dave had a point, while saying I still admired Weinstein for trying in his quixotic way.

    Then you insist on saying I am blaming Weinstein for disregarding his safety.

    You’re really stretching to criticize. It’s unfair and unpleasant. I’m sure you think it’s my fault, so my request for some introspection on your part is probably a waste of time. I blame myself for not seeing that sooner!

    Patterico (115b1f)

  90. I have an acquaintance who went to Evergreen.
    It’s one of those ‘experimental colleges’ without letter grades. Instead, the professors write a little narrative of your progress. It’s generally impossible to fail.
    My acquaintance said that most classes were a waste, but he had one or two professors who took mentoring seriously and were really good.

    Ingot9455 (afdf95)

  91. Dave didn’t have a point. If he had a point he would’ve added the mob should’ve been expelled immediately and the administration was completely at fault for letting the mob escalate.

    Instead he was just excusing leftist behavior saying others should expect them to behave that way.

    NJRob (1d7532)

  92. That said, today is 9/11 and I’m taking the day off politics to reflect on what we’ve lost over the past 17 years.

    NJRob (1d7532)

  93. My acquaintance said that most classes were a waste

    What are the women like?

    Kevin M (5d3e49)

  94. Instead he was just excusing leftist behavior saying others should expect them to behave that way.

    Right, you hateful illiterate, by saying the professor shouldn’t have tolerated the behavior, I was excusing it…

    Dave (445e97)

  95. Mizzou also has had enrollment problems since their “protests.” Lots of college kids told they’re going to local schools to avoid loans and they get the same professors anyway since most of GE is taught by adjuncts. They have learned their lessons.

    And Weinstein was teaching a class when he became aware that something was going on outside his classroom. He went out to see what was going on. The police came within 20 minutes and disbanded the mob.

    So he was at fault?? Really a peripheral issue here.

    Patricia (3363ec)

  96. people go into debt to go to these crappy failmerican colleges and universities

    silly monkeys

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  97. My acquaintance said that most classes were a waste

    Three-fourths of the American college system is a waste. Across the board. Three-fourths of the students, three-fourths of the professors, three-fourths of the curriculum, three-fourths of the time the kids spend there, three fourths of everything.

    In Continental Europe, you get a medical degree or a law degree or an engineering degree or a whatever degree, four years after graduating high school. None of this undergraduate crap. Some universities over here have something similar for medicine and law, but with six-year programs American kids being lazier and more immature and their parents richer.

    nk (dbc370)

  98. 97, to that point, is a Harvey Mudd 10 a 10 elsewhere as well (not a knock – Heather Locklear and Cindy Crawford started out as undergraduate Engineering majors), but then you had multiple other colleges in close proximity (not unlike a mini-Boston).

    urbanleftbehind (5eecdb)

  99. @101

    In Europe, the secondary school curricula are also more uniform and tightly controlled at the national level (no local control of schools) and the preparation of students is a lot less variable.

    There are other important cultural differences, like the fact that Americans change jobs about 50% more than Europeans or Japanese. The greater security of European jobs is obviously related to the fact there are a lot fewer of them available.

    As for the liberal arts degree, I can tell you my honest experience in dealing with physics students. A student in Germany or Japan will complete a doctoral degree in less time than a student in America can complete a PhD, but American PhDs are universally viewed as better prepared from the standpoint of independent critical thinking (i.e. the extra time is far from wasted). After the same number of years there won’t be much difference. A European doctoral graduate just does a lot of training after receiving their degree that an American doctoral graduate gets while still in school.

    I do agree with you that too many students enter college before they should (or when they should not enter at all).

    Dave (445e97)

  100. Pretend I’m Donald Trump and read my words as charitably as you’d read his.

    That would be an interesting exercise for Trumpistas in almost any context. For the most part, they would be unlikely to grant anyone else the same moral indulgence they give to Trump, unless it’s to another fervent Trumpista.

    Radegunda (07ace3)

  101. Instead he was just excusing leftist behavior saying others should expect them to behave that way.

    I think that is unfair, uncharitable, and a perfect example of the kind of discourse I hate these days. *I* expect idiot SJW students to act that way. Do not tell me that I am excusing them if I say that. Do not tell me that if I think the good guy in this scenario could have acted more wisely that I am justifying the bad people’s conduct.

    I am totally on Weinstein’s side here. I despise the antics of the SJW mob confronting him. But that doesn’t mean I have to pretend that his reaction was the ideal one. I think it was a little naive. It twists my words, and Dave’s, for you to claim that by making that observation we are “excusing” anything.

    Stop being unfair and unreasonable, NJRob. Stop mischaracterizing what we say.

    The key rule of discussion is to be able to state the other guy’s position in a way that he would agree with it. Instead, you and harkin insist on continually stating the other guy’s position in a way that he says you are distorting what he is saying.

    There is rarely an excuse for telling an honest person that he means something that he insists he doesn’t.

    Patterico (52aafa)

  102. I’m reading all of this, and I just throw up my hands. Patterico is being fair minded about things, and careful.

    Anyone can have whatever opinion they want.

    But the tough part, if you think about it, is that Weinstein wanted to be on the side of the students. He tried to engage with them. And listening to his interviews and following this slow motion car crash closely, it really knocked his brain for a loop. He is discovering that folks on the Right are more willing to be polite to him than he ever expected.

    So folks on the Right should keep that in mind! Hearts and minds.

    During the Iraq Invasion, when I taught in another state, the faculty were encouraged to cancel class for a “teach in.” I chose not to participate, saying (as I believe) that my job was to teach students, not create political theater. If students elected not to attend class that day, that would be fine. But I would be lecturing, for those students who attended.

    Have my class showed up. I taught as normal. And then one of the yelly screamy types invaded my classroom and confronted me. I explained what I was doing, and why. The 19 year sneered and said I was “part of the problem.”

    Four students in the front row—both men and women—walked up to the yelly guy and told him to leave or be ejected, that this was their education, not his.

    It took all I could do to teach normally and not respond. I did write each student a personal thank you note.

    Of course, when I needed support from other faculty later, I did not receive it.

    But that classroom gave me hope.

    Simon Jester (c8876d)

  103. It is said that space is the final frontier, but today, when there’s talk about boldly going where no man has gone before, they mean the ladies’ restroom. Such are the times we live in. I blame the Left for this.

    Colonel Haiku (0aee87)

  104. Let’s be kind; this ain’t Purdue. Or Texas A&M.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  105. Pretend I’m Donald Trump and read my words as charitably as you’d read his.

    In the interest of comity and maintaining my commenting privileges, I’m going to ignore that suggestion…

    :)

    Dave (445e97)

  106. college sounds gruesome no wonder these stupid millennials are all potheads

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  107. For a little context, Weinstein had that confrontation by cultural Marxists in the above YouTube because he objected to how the school changed the observance of their Day of Absence. In prior years, minorities would protest by leaving campus for the day, and they changed it to demanding that all white people leave campus, which is what Dr. Weinstein appropriately objected to. Ms. Weiss summarized his thoughts quite well.

    A bit of background: The “Day of Absence” is an Evergreen tradition that stretches back to the 1970s. As Mr. Weinstein explained on Wednesday in The Wall Street Journal, “in previous years students and faculty of color organized a day on which they met off campus — a symbolic act based on the Douglas Turner Ward play in which all the black residents of a Southern town fail to show up one morning.” This year, the script was flipped: “White students, staff and faculty will be invited to leave campus for the day’s activities,” reported the student newspaper on the change. The decision was made after students of color “voiced concern over feeling as if they are unwelcome on campus, following the 2016 election.”
    Mr. Weinstein thought this was wrong. The biology professor said as much in a letter to Rashida Love, the school’s Director of First Peoples Multicultural Advising Services. “There is a huge difference between a group or coalition deciding to voluntarily absent themselves from a shared space in order to highlight their vital and under-appreciated roles,” he wrote, “and a group or coalition encouraging another group to go away.” The first instance, he argued, “is a forceful call to consciousness.” The second “is a show of force, and an act of oppression in and of itself.” In other words, what purported to be a request for white students and professors to leave campus was something more than that. It was an act of moral bullying — to stay on campus as a white person would mean to be tarred as a racist.

    For this “offense”, and for sticking to his classically liberal beliefs, his career was changed forever. We can quibble about whether and for how long he should’ve engaged with undergrad bullies, but he’s not at fault, not in the least.

    Paul Montagu (cbbfc4)

  108. He needed to pay attention to Niemoller

    Steveg (3784a5)

  109. I particularly enjoyed listening to Weinstein’s wife, who also left Evergreen. Heather Heying is a fair minded and kind hearted progressive. Worth watching.

    https://youtu.be/fXQS0jOTHos

    Simon Jester (c8876d)

  110. “I* expect idiot SJW students to act that way. Do not tell me that I am excusing them if I say that. Do not tell me that if I think the good guy in this scenario could have acted more wisely that I am justifying the bad people’s conduct.”

    I don’t believe you were. But just as with Former President “Acted Stupidly”, taking this moderate line fed the reprehensible minimalizing of the student’s guilt in the matter by Dave and especially Tillman, who seems to have never lets an opportunity to disparage his opponents without evidence or intelligence of his own.

    Taking any moderate line on something you believe in quite deeply when partisans like Tillman are ready and willing to take a mile of preening “SEE, HE ADMITS GUILT!” out of it is terrible advocacy when dealing with SJWs whose first and only tactic when confronted on their wilful hatred and ignorance is ‘appeal to amenable authorities.’

    Nonpartisan Actor (099d2a)

  111. Note: Brett Weinstein’s brother Eric is also very much worth following, highly principled and highly engaged:

    https://twitter.com/ericrweinstein

    Nonpartisan Actor (b138f1)

  112. @110. ‘Have my class showed up…’ Meh. Not to mention evidence of contact highs, Mr. Feet. Score w/brownie points, Alice B. Toklas.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  113. > There is rarely an excuse for telling an honest person that he means something that he insists he doesn’t.

    Nonsense! It’s an utter travesty that you believe it’s appropriate to tell an honest person he means something he says he doesn’t!

    😛

    aphrael (e0cdc9)

  114. Seriously, though:

    > Apply the principle of charity

    this is good advice that I wish we were all better at following.

    aphrael (e0cdc9)

  115. a lot of them are so high they think the climate change hoax is a real thing

    stupid millenniums

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  116. Right, you hateful illiterate

    Because people who disagree with Dave are tautologically hateful and illiterate.

    Kevin M (5d3e49)

  117. is a Harvey Mudd 10 a 10 elsewhere as well

    Well, in 1976 unlikely since there were 4 women in my class. But I’ve been back since and I gotta tell you my life would have been different. A lot of hot geek girls.

    Kevin M (5d3e49)

  118. then you had multiple other colleges in close proximity (not unlike a mini-Boston).

    Such as Pitzer. So long as they don’t talk politics.

    Kevin M (5d3e49)

  119. @119. Always bring your brelly, raincoat and rubbers to class, Mr. Feet.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  120. Because people who disagree with Dave are tautologically hateful and illiterate.

    No, some people who dishonestly attack me and falsely attribute words I never said, as you just did, are simply liars.

    Dave (226325)

  121. “…changed the observance of their Day of Absence.”

    A few of my HS basketball teammates and I had a twist on this… we had a “Period of Absence” where we’d skip 3rd period and ankle it across the athletic field and make our way thru a convenient hole in the chainlink fence to the TasteeFreeze before VP Eberhardt – may he RIP – could catch us.

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  122. ConDave lashes out!

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  123. What are the women like?

    Kevin M (5d3e49) — 9/11/2018 @ 8:15 am

    Socially Constructed.

    Pinandpuller (eb0251)

  124. “What are the women like?”

    Kevin M (5d3e49) — 9/11/2018 @ 8:15 am

    Shorter Kevin… “How much for teh weemen?”

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  125. I know you are a bass player Mr Colonel Haiku so I think you appreciate really fine drummers:

    Gavin Harrison – “White Mist” by The Pineapple Thief

    Pinandpuller (eb0251)

  126. Pretty good, PandP!

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  127. Here’s one for you… the late Richie Hayward… https://youtu.be/ZwFNUPPJJnQ

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  128. Wow, boring.

    Bob the Builder (564d53)

  129. Aw man, why do I always discover people and bands when they are dead or broken up? Although, did he play on Representing the Mambo? I do have that somewhere…

    One more quick one, Colonel, I think you might like fusion type stuff: Anika Nilles – “Synergy”

    Pinandpuller (eb0251)

  130. Yes, he did play on that one. He was their drummer from 1970 until he died in 2013… I think.

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  131. She is good! Here’s the best drummer I ever saw… no one else came close… https://youtu.be/mCWhLUtCVXc

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  132. I think that is unfair, uncharitable, and a perfect example of the kind of discourse I hate these days. *I* expect idiot SJW students to act that way. Do not tell me that I am excusing them if I say that. Do not tell me that if I think the good guy in this scenario could have acted more wisely that I am justifying the bad people’s conduct.

    I am totally on Weinstein’s side here. I despise the antics of the SJW mob confronting him. But that doesn’t mean I have to pretend that his reaction was the ideal one. I think it was a little naive. It twists my words, and Dave’s, for you to claim that by making that observation we are “excusing” anything.

    Stop being unfair and unreasonable, NJRob. Stop mischaracterizing what we say.

    The key rule of discussion is to be able to state the other guy’s position in a way that he would agree with it. Instead, you and harkin insist on continually stating the other guy’s position in a way that he says you are distorting what he is saying.

    There is rarely an excuse for telling an honest person that he means something that he insists he doesn’t.

    Patterico (52aafa) — 9/11/2018 @ 1:31 pm

    I took the day off as I said I would.

    I didn’t accuse you of anything. I quoted Dave as he never resists the urge to jump to the defense of the radical leftist at the expense of their victim. His constant defenses of Obama and others prove he dost protest too much. I didn’t include you in there for a reason.

    As for Weinstein bearing any culpability, the only way I agree is that he hasn’t walked away from his leftist beliefs. The hatred he saw is the end result of his beliefs. It’s been shown in Russia, in China, in Cuba and most recently in Venezuela. But as for the incident, he bears no blame. He had a class right outside where these rabid thugs were. He tried to get them under control, but got zero support from the administration. They should’ve been expelled immediately.

    NJRob (1d7532)

  133. Colonel Haiku

    He’s great.

    Would you ever do this to perfectly good beef?

    This is the traditional Armenian version of Basturma, which is based on Pastirma from Turkey.

    How To Make Pastirma/Basturma (Cured Beef)

    Pinandpuller (eb0251)

  134. I didn’t accuse you of anything. I quoted Dave as he never resists the urge to jump to the defense of the radical leftist at the expense of their victim

    Except words mean things, and I said that the hallway altercation with students shouting profanities was intolerable, and that no professor should have tolerated it:

    I confess I don’t understand the full story of Weinstein and ESC, but I’ve taught long enough to know that standing in a hallway and engaging in a shouting a match with a mob of a dozen or more angry, foul-mouthed students has zero probability of ending well.

    That he felt otherwise does not speak well of his judgment.

    Where is there even a HINT of any defense of any “radical leftist at the expense of their victim”. I said Weinstein was TOO INDULGENT of them.

    Why do you lie about what is clearly written in black and white for anyone who wants to know the truth to read?

    Dave (445e97)

  135. Mole: More NEGRO than Colin Kapernick

    Oaxacan Mole Negro – THE MOST MYSTERIOUS Mexican Food in Oaxaca Village, Mexico!

    Pinandpuller (eb0251)

  136. i did an oaxacan tasting last year at topo they put the mole on elk, which was a choice they made

    they say their motto is something like “we always strive to be authentic and when we’re not authentic we’re local”

    it was tasty but maybe a lil bit contrived

    i love it with chicken cause it’s just so good that way plus you don’t risk getting mad elk disease

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  137. What Professor Weinstein did was he let the dipsh!ts entice him to go outside his expertise, which is one of Alinsky’s Rules for Radicals. He went and played their game, in their ballpark, under their rules, first when he actively spoke out against their pogrom and then engaged them person to person. He should have stuck to his expertise — teaching his class strictly under the terms of his contract and maybe calling security or building maintenance (snorfle) to see if they could do something about the noise in the hallway — and left them dangling with nothing they could fault him for.

    nk (dbc370)

  138. I saw the Evergreen Womens soccer team play against a team from a Christian college.
    The Evergreen women were furrier and stout with rainbow headbands.
    The other team had good looking athletic women in pony tails and clean legs. I thought the stouter team might win, but the Evergreen women were not all that athletic, but were solid in their LBTGXYZ ethos, which evidently was inclusive of losing.
    They played like grumpy lesbians well beyond their years which made for a boring game. For some reason the night after the game I had a dream about lesbian women with lots of cats

    steveg (a9dcab)

  139. The MIT graduate asks: “How does it work?”
    The Caltech graduate asks: “How do you build it?”
    The Wharton graduate asks: “How much will it cost?”
    The Evergreen graduate asks: “Would you like to Supersize that?”

    nk (dbc370)


Powered by WordPress.

Page loaded in: 0.4118 secs.