Patterico's Pontifications


Well Knock Me Over with a Feather!

Filed under: General — JVW @ 12:05 pm

[guest post by JVW]

In a surprise move, the Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals on Wednesday refused to overturn an injunction by a San Diego district court which prevented the state of California from enforcing its ban on firearm magazines holding more than ten bullets. The law banning the “high capacity” magazines had been passed by the California Legislature and signed by Governor Jerry Brown in 2016, and officially was to be enforced starting July 1 of last year, but had been blocked by the ruling from U.S. District Judge Roger Benitez shortly before it was to go into effect. Under the law, gun owners were supposed to voluntarily surrender their now-illegal magazines to law enforcement officers.

The decision by a three-judge panel in the Ninth Circuit was two to one in support of the injunction. Judge Benitez’s original ruling had sensibly declared that “a final decision will take too long to offer relief, and because the statute will soon visit irrevocable harm on Plaintiffs and all those similarly situated a state-wide preliminary injunction is necessary and justified to maintain the status quo.” In yesterday’s ruling, Judge N. Randy Smith (appointed by G.W. Bush) and Judge Deborah A. Batts, sitting by designation from the Southern District of New York (I didn’t know they used visiting judges to cover vacancies), determined that Judge Benitez was well within judicial discretion in suggesting that plaintiffs could suffer irrevocable harm from the ban as well as in his assertion that under the Heller decision a magazine which holds more than ten bullets could be considered protected by the Second Amendment.

In dissent, Judge John Clifford Wallace, a 90-year-old Nixon appointee who puts the “senior” in Senior Circuit Judge, suggested that “the district court clearly misapplied intermediate scrutiny by refusing to credit relevant evidence that fairly supports the state’s rationale for its [large-capacity magazine] ban,” pointing to a Michael Bloomberg-funded Mayors Against Illegal Guns study from 2013 purporting to demonstrate that guns with magazines holding more than ten bullets lead to more lethal mass shootings. Judge Wallace also accused Judge Benitez of failing to reach the same conclusions that another district court had reached in a similar case. But the two-judge majority would have none of that logic, dispensing with Wallace’s arguments in a pair of footnotes in the majority ruling and accusing Wallace of substituting his own discretion for that of the district judge.

While the magazine ban remains on hold, this case goes back to the district court for further ruling on the legality of the legislation. This case may very well end up back at the Ninth Circuit, and perhaps eventually at the Supreme Court.

Thoughts from David French at National Review Online here; thoughts from David Kopel of Reason here. I’ll leave it to you lawyers and gun nuts* to carry the conversation from here.


* Kidding! Kidding!

94 Responses to “Well Knock Me Over with a Feather!”

  1. This may also be a good time to lament the curious decision of Tim Scott and Marco Rubio to block the nomination of Ryan Bounds of Oregon to the Ninth Circuit earlier this week. Powerline has been covering this story with a post explaining what happened followed by a post on how that might complicate the Brett Kavanaugh nomination to the Supreme Court.

    JVW (dadb0c)

  2. *shrug*

    The plain language of the Second Amendment states the the right of a citizen to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed. It does not say ‘shall not be infringed by Congress’ (which the First effectively does, or did until the 14th Amendment). It doesn’t say ‘except for such weapons as the State shall declare icky’. It think one could make an argument that the phrase ‘keep and BEAR’ limits the right to those weapons that can be moved and operated by a single person. Otherwise all bans, taxes, registrations, licenses, etc are unconstitutional.

    The Progressive Left Establishment hates, Hates, HATES this. They may talk blithely about “What good are firearms going to do against a tyrannical government that has tanks?”, but they know that tyrannies are not run from tanks, they are run from desks.

    They have been chipping away at the second amendment for a long time. Since the Civil Way, really, since many of the roots of progressivism can be traced to good old fashioned (and far more honest) Southern Racism. At the point in my life when I first started to follow politics (the early 1970’s) it was generally assumed, by Liberals and Conservatives alike that handguns would toon be broadly illegal.

    Instead, the gun owners have pushed back. Now states like Californicatia and Shrew Jersey are among the only seven states that do not have ‘must issue’ laws, or even fewer restrictions. The Gun banners are fighting hard, but I have to hope they will continue to lose.

    I don’t own a gun. I’m an awkward cuss, and thus feel I shouldn’t operate some things like guns and power-saws. Nevertheless, I want to see the Constitution given a damned sight more respect that it has been. The weaseling must stop.

    C. S. P. Schofield (0b343f)

  3. @2. The plain language of the Second Amendment states the the right of a citizen to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.

    You need glasses; and that’s covered under Obamacare.

    The plain language: “A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.”

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  4. Uh, C.S.P. Schofield says “the right of a citizen to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed,” and DCSCA counters with “the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.” Ohhhhhh-kaaaaay.

    Please don’t launch into the banal argument that the Second Amendment only applies to the militia. That is well-trod ground and you aren’t going to get anywhere with it. And I would definitely view it as an unwelcome thread jack.

    JVW (dadb0c)

  5. For more good news, silencer manufacturers seem to be standardizing the barrel thread (at 1/2-28 TPI) and pistol manufacturers are producing guns with the barrel already threaded. In response, pharmacies in California have doubled their stocks of Zoloft and Xanax.

    nk (dbc370)

  6. @4. No, DCSCA counters with:

    “A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.”

    You need glasses, too.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  7. As for Michael Bloomberg, he was Mayor of New York for a time. His cops needed 127 shots to hit one innocent bystander. From that he progressed to police need magazines that hold more than ten rounds, and from there to only the police need magazines that hold more than ten rounds.

    nk (dbc370)

  8. I get it. C.S.P. Schofield (any relation to the gun designer?) said “citizen” and the Second Amendment says “people”. The right to keep and bear arms is not a privilege of citizenship, it is a human right.

    nk (dbc370)

  9. Liberals will need these large capacity magazine when they join the “coup” against trump ;but first they will have to go to the local gun store they have been picketing to shut down to buy their assault rifles. see bill ayres on alec jones show.

    wendell (3a8ab8)

  10. Oh, so you’re joining the pro-illegal immigrant gun rights advocacy group?

    JVW (dadb0c)

  11. While it is clear that people forced to surrender guns (and are they going to safeguard them and everything rather than destroy them) will suffer irreparable hamr if they win the case, I am not sure where anyone gets the idea that certain kinds of weapons cannot be banned by a state.

    Can the federal government ban them, or severely restrict their use?

    The Heller standard of “guns in common use” is totally incoherent. It’s no standard at all. It begs the question. It amounts to circular reasoning.

    In the 1930s Congress outlawed “gatget guns” that didn’t look like guns. So they can stay illegal. But what Congress didn’t happen to ban, can’t?

    Sammy Finkelman (02a146)

  12. “The people” means an organized group of citizens, acting in accordance with, or as a replacement for, state or local law.

    Sammy Finkelman (02a146)

  13. Looking forward to the lamentations from writers who invoke terms such as ‘assault revolver’.

    harkin (23c945)

  14. It’s easy to read why the full text of the Second Amendment is inconveniently bothersome to some.

    But tonight, look up, smile, give a wink and recall ‘the way it was’ when America was truly great:

    Tip of the cap to all those at NASA then and now, and especially to Buzz, Mike and the late Neil Armstrong for ‘planting the flag’ at what was literally the pinnacle of the ‘American Century’… 49 years ago today. It has been all down hill ever since.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  15. Oh, so you’re joining the pro-illegal immigrant gun rights advocacy group?

    They have a right to self-defense, too. But so far, Congress and the states have only recognized the right in legal permanent residents/immigrants and non-immigrant visa hunters who have been issued a hunting license.

    nk (dbc370)

  16. Gun rights advocates wouldn’t show up to protect oath keepers so they canceled maxine waters protest. key board 2 amendment advocates don’t strike again!

    wendell (3a8ab8)

  17. It has been all down hill ever since.

    I am a great admirer of Project Apollo, but I think you go too far here.

    First, the moon landing occurred in the midst of a very troubled and unsettled time for our country – Vietnam, race riots, political assassinations. Certainly its significance as a morale booster, and a reminder of what we could accomplish working together, was enhanced by the contrast with other things going on at the same time. But to call 1969 the pinnacle of the American century seems a stretch.

    Second, while Apollo inspired many people (including me – it’s probably a major reason why I decided to be a scientist), its direct impact on peoples’ lives was negligible. America’s victories first over fascism, and then over communism, and subsequent establishment of stable democracies through most of Europe and East Asia, are far more important milestones.

    Dave (445e97)

  18. The same day or so they landed on the moon:

    There was a war between El Salvador and Honduras, thatstarted with fights over soccer.

    And ther4 wss Chappaquiddick.

    Sammy Finkelman (02a146)

  19. Well, Maria Butina, had she missed her flight, got knocked up by a fellow conventioneer and stayed until the delivery, might have been a founder of such a group.

    urbanleftbehind (9ec32c)

  20. They blinded ConDave with Science!

    Colonel Haiku (33489e)

  21. it looks like james gunn tupolev’d himself out of a franchise,

    narciso (d1f714)

  22. but the 90 year old judge fell for Bloomberg’s astroturf.

    narciso (d1f714)

  23. @17. Nope. Start w/t widget you’re using to communicate to this blog then move to the plethora of gadgets around you infesting modern daily life; they’re direct descendants of that effort. Whether you see it or not is an issue for you to resolve. Step back ways and review the arc of history; separate the grain from the chaff. The American Century was born on 12/7/41, peaked on 7/20/69 and died on 9/11/01. China knows it. So do Germans, Japanese, Arabs and Rooskies. Apollo 11 was figuratively and literally the pinnacle of the American century. Kids see it, too, if cajoled to think about it; but really don’t care about history much; it distracts from their texting.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  24. @21. Only twits twitter.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  25. so because of this category error, the people of that county, are deprived of their rights,

    narciso (d1f714)

  26. Whatever you think about NASA, the space program and Apollo 11, one of my most vivid memories is going outside that evening after Armstrong descended the ladder.

    Looking up at the bright moon and realizing that for the first time ever there were people looking back was surreal.

    harkin (23c945)

  27. @19. And now she lives in ‘freedom’s safest place’ and it ain’t ‘Wayne’s World.’

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  28. And there you were worried that the thread might degenerate into a discussion about the prefatory clause of the Second Amendment, JVW.

    nk (dbc370)

  29. when one resolves to use sociology or other tool in lieu of statute, that is the result,

    sometimes they dispense with the evidence entirely,

    narciso (d1f714)

  30. I get it. C.S.P. Schofield (any relation to the gun designer?)

    said “citizen” and the Second Amendment says “people”. The right to keep and bear arms is not a privilege of citizenship, it is a human right.
    nk (dbc370) — 7/20/2018 @ 1:19 pm

    Just so you know it’s now legal for me to carry a sword in Texas.

    Steve57 (0b1dac)


    “Daggers, spears and even machetes fall into that category.

    Texas Gov. Greg Abbott signed the bill into law last month, but it doesn’t go into effect until September 1.

    ‘Carrying a sword down the street, carrying a Bowie knife down the street… completely legal. Machetes if you want to,’ said general manager at the House of Blades in Fort Worth, Ahnna Escobedo.

    ‘I think it was more to give people more’rights and to make sure they felt like they were free to carry what they wanted,’ Escobedo said. ‘Texas move right there, sure …'”

    Notice the uptick in Knife/sword/spear violence.

    Steve57 (0b1dac)

  32. Doesn’t it seem weird that that you couldn’t carry a Bowie knife at the home of the Alamo?

    Steve57 (0b1dac)

  33. Steve57 @30. It’s been a year since Illinois made switchblades legal for people with FOIDs. So I bought a couple. A side opener and an OTF. Then I discovered that they were obsolete.

    nk (dbc370)

  34. @26. Mine as well. Still have a silly photo taken that evening of Luna knowing two were walking and one was zipping around it.

    Though as years pass, the landing stays more with me than the first steps and moonwalk itself. Post-landing, Aldrin took a few moments to radio back to Earth and describe what he could see out the window of the LM. Incredible stuff. It was planned and part of his checklist. But that fragment of conversation was and is the most profoundly memorable bit of conversation in human history. You could only imagine how many hundreds of millions of people in centuries past, from the great minds in Greek, Roman and Pyramid times to a lone shepherd tending his flock under a full moon would have wanted to hear it. We are so lucky to have been alive to experience it and fortunate to be able to have preserved all of it for generations to come. Wars, famine, strife, happiness and grief have been with us in many guises through time on this rock. But this was a first of firsts; a calculated step in human evolution. It was about leaving. And with good judgment and uck, wil likely assure the survival of the species.

    In ’69, the focus was on the crew and the flight itself. But with time to digest it, the true triumph is the organization, planning and management of it all. Consider the thousands of contractors, sub-contractors, sub-contractors to sub-contractors and the quality control necessary for hardware and parts to meet scheduling even with built-in pad time and thin margins. And the reliability of all those components, tested, retested, and the redundancy of primary, back-up and back-ups to back ups. Most of the key ‘can’t fail systems’ for Apollo were still designed w/two or three different operational paths. Believe the management techniques are taught at business schools these days.

    Sorry for the OT chatter, but current events can too often cloud what we should truly appreciate. 500- even 1000 years from now, nobody’s going to note, much less remember the day-today crap we’re experience now. Some may recall Gagarin, but everybody will remember Armstrong, Aldrin, Collins and Apollo 11.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  35. Kentucky rifles are illegal in Kentucky.

    Steve57 (0b1dac)

  36. I don’t have a Bowie but I have something very similar. (It’s a very well-made clone of the Randall #1.)

    nk (dbc370)

  37. …So I bought a couple. A side opener and an OTF. Then I discovered that they were obsolete.
    nk (dbc370) — 7/20/2018 @ 4:03 pm

    If anyone has a better way to get shot, I don’t know of one.

    Steve57 (0b1dac)

  38. Kentucky rifles are illegal in Kentucky.

    Heh! Kentucky only requires a CCL for handguns. You can own any gun, and carry any long gun you want.

    nk (dbc370)

  39. I don’t have a Bowie but I have something very similar. (It’s a very well-made clone of the Randall #1.)
    nk (dbc370) — 7/20/2018 @ 4:07 pm

    Bless you lad. I have the K-Bar. And I use it. Ask me about my
    Khukri. You should be interested because, Kopis?

    Steve57 (0b1dac)


    I don’t know how to find a better way to get shot.

    Steve57 (0b1dac)

  41. Self-defense against a knife attack 1 minute demo…

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  42. Bullets???? Cartridges, silly.

    cm smith (127d9e)

  43. James Woods.

    Steve57 (0b1dac)

  44. I was using words precisely.

    Steve57 (0b1dac)

  45. A very sobering read…

    “Dear PJ Media Readers:

    I have a bone to pick with you.

    I notice that my July 16 post, “President Trump is Magnificently Right — This Time About Russia,” drew over 650 comments. My July 19 post, “A Letter to Larry Kudlow: You Need a Different China Strategy,” drew 9 comments. It ought to be the other way around. Russia has an economy the size of Italy; Putin has managed his slender resources cleverly and made himself something of a pain in the neck, but Russia’s diminished position in the world makes any problem with Russia soluble in principle. China has four times our population and an economy that is already larger than ours on a purchasing power parity basis, and it represents a formidable challenge to American preeminence.

    The U.S. elites didn’t anticipate the rise of China because they couldn’t believe that a country so different from ours with a repugnant political system could succeed. Gordon Chang first published his book The Coming Collapse of China in 2001 — since when, China’s economy has quintupled in size. China succeeded, and kept succeeding. Yet we continue to hear (for example from Steve Bannon on CNBC yesterday) that China’s currency and economy will collapse if we give them a swift kick. Steve is a friend, but in this case he’s catastrophically wrong.

    President Trump clearly believes something of the same sort. China’s “currency is dropping like a rock!,” he declared this morning on CNBC. Not quite: China manages its currency against a basket of world currencies, and the exchange rate against the euro is exactly where it was in April. China, however, has responded to the U.S. tariff threat by easing monetary policy, to stimulate domestic demand in case foreign demand falls. Easier monetary policy means a weaker currency. There are no capital outflows out of China; this is a deliberate preemptive response by the Chinese authorities.

    This is the same kind of narcissism that led us to waste $7 trillion in sand castles in the Middle East. We believed that our political system was a universal solution to all human problems, and if we imposed it on other people, they would act like us. In the case of China, we believe that a radically different culture and political system is ready to collapse.

    That is a dangerous delusion.

    When Ronald Reagan took office in 1981, Russia and its satellites had a population of 375 million, vs. 225 million for the United States. Although Russia’s economy was rotten–as Reagan and his team insisted against the prevailing consensus–its military power threatened to make Western Europe a Soviet economic colony. Reagan beat Russia in the Cold War and broke up the Soviet empire. Russia now has 146 million people, less than half of America’s 300 million. Game over. The problem at present is managing a rancorous spoiler rather than a competing superpower.

    China is entirely different. Its per capita GDP has risen 45 times (that’s 4,500%) since Deng Xiaoping began China’s economic reforms in 1979. Although its growth rate has cooled from double digits to between 6% and 7% a year, China’s economy still doubles roughly every ten years. China now graduates four times as many STEM bachelor’s degrees and twice as many STEM doctorates as the U.S. During the past two years, moreover, Chinese applications to U.S. graduate schools (where foreign students comprise about 4/5 of all students) have dropped by about half during the past couple of years, because Chinese universities are roughly on par with America’s in math, physics and computer science. One out of 3 Chinese university students majors in engineering. The number in the U.S. is one out of 14 (and that counts Chinese foreign students at U.S. universities).

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  46. American narcissism, courtesy of America’s leading narcissists:

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  47. Harkin@26 and DCSCA@34. Your comments reminded me of important things I hadn’t thought about for awhile, thanks.

    Here’s how Russia tried to mess up our moon landing

    1. Russia meddled during our moon flights
    2. ‘The Russians suck’
    3. The countdown guy got emotional
    4. Armstrong’s first step almost wasn’t televised
    5. Armstrong stood out with calm confidence

    Apollo 11: Untold Stories

    It almost didn’t happen
    The computer on board Eagle was not much more powerful than a digital watch today, and as the ship descended, its rocket engine at full blast, Armstrong realized the system was steering the astronauts toward a rugged crater the size of a football field.

    He took over control, and went shooting over the landscape in search of smoother ground. As he went, Eagle gulped fuel. They ran so low that Aldrin called out, “Contact light,” just 17 seconds before mission control would have told the astronauts to jettison the ship’s landing stage, fire the ascent engine and abort the landing.

    Would Armstrong, knowing by then he was so close, actually have made that risky move? We will never know.

    Russian meddling and seconds away from disaster… some things never change but these men and the team supporting them were special people whose shoes we’d have trouble filling today.

    crazy (5c5b07)

  48. For anyone interested, not long before he passed, Neil Armstrong took the rare opportunity at a 2011 conference in Australia to personally narrate a unique video created which marries the 1969 onboard film of the Apollo 11 moon landing photographed from the right window of the LM with images from Google Moon which fill in the view from the left window so viewers can see what the crew saw as they landed. It’s quite interesting, if only to hear Armstrong discussing it, which was very rare, and to see the larger crater he was forced to fly over before landing.

    It’s only about four and a half minutes, but worth a watch, particularly today.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  49. Fascinating

    The year Columbus sailed was the last year of the reconquista.

    Narciso (7d6b16)

  50. “A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.”

    So, if the first amendment said “a well-informed populace being necessary to the functioning of a free state, the right of the people to free speech and a free press shall not be infringed” you’d argue that these rights only applied to registered voters?

    Kevin M (5d3e49)

  51. @48. Actually, NASA had safeguards regarding ‘protecting’ telemetry and radio traffic between the ground, the tracking systems and spacecraft during the Earth orbital and lunar flights. Communication issues and antennae alignments were a bit of an issue w/11 anyway. But during the 11 flight, when the Soviet Luna 15 was in transit in a failed attempt to ‘scoop’ the landing by scooping up some samples and returning them first, Nixon had Frank Borman in contact w/the Russian cooperative space officials to exchange orbital data and such to avoid any problems.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  52. the banal argument that the Second Amendment only applies to the militia

    The Klan’s argument, you mean. “So sorry, non-white-person, but since we don’t let you into the militia, you can’t have a gun.”

    Kevin M (5d3e49)

  53. “In yesterday’s ruling, Judge N. Randy Smith (appointed by G.W. Bush) and Judge Deborah A. Batts, sitting by designation from the Southern District of New York (I didn’t know they used visiting judges to cover vacancies….” There are six vacancies right now in the 9th Circuit, and visiting Judges are often used to cover these positions when senior Judges (retired 9th Circuit Judges who hear a few cases each year and still receive full Judge pay and are assigned clerks) aren’t available. Two of those senior 9th Circuit Judges died recently, Stephen Reinhardt and Harry Pregerson.

    I expect Anthony Kennedy to be sitting in on a lot of 9th Circuit cases going forward, as he lives on the West Coast and was on the 9th Circuit before being elevated to the Supreme Court.

    pete (a65bac)

  54. Two things about China:

    1) They are vulnerable, at the moment, to import taxes on their finished goods as there are insufficient imported goods to effectively counter-tax. Then again, they don’t ahve to listen to the bitc*ing.

    2) They have an excess of young men. Millions of extra young men.

    Kevin M (5d3e49)

  55. Meant to say Kennedy is from the West Coast (California)

    pete (a65bac)

  56. The Oral History of Apollo 11

    Popular Mechanics set out to document the full and unvarnished story. July 16, 1969, marks the first day of the historic mission. Here, sleepless news correspondents and operations engineers, flight directors and astronauts take us to the point where the rocket clears the tower and responsibility shifts from Launch Control at Cape Kennedy to Mission Control in Houston for the crew’s coast to the moon.

    It’s an amazing story, DCSCA. In an earlier life I was privileged to work with some of NASA’s finest including the real “Steve Austin” who lived through but got pretty banged up and lost an eye in the lifting body hard landing featured in the TV show opening.

    crazy (5c5b07)

  57. “The Klan’s argument, you mean. “So sorry, non-white-person, but since we don’t let you into the militia, you can’t have a gun.””

    Should not be surprising that statist thugs from the socialist side of the spectrum think alike.

    harkin (23c945)

  58. @57. Yeah, lots of rich stories coming out over the decades from the Mercury, Gemini, Apollo and Skylab era which at the time they really had no time to consider. Some incredible personal photos and more obscure ones as well on various sites like at Edwards, Goddard, USGS, U of Az., or at Huntsville, White Sands and so forth. A lot of the people now retired have taken time to share and post what ever they have to the web. It’s just a matter of finding it but it’s worth it to fill in gaps. Recommend for starts you Google and peruse the Apollo Lunar Surface Journal. NASA PAO only released a handful of images to the public from those flights and the ALSJ has some pretty much all the imagery and can let you access flickr for the full sets of Gemini and Mercury imagery.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  59. I don’t know how to find a better way to get shot.

    In bed, at age 100, by your 25-year old girlfriend’s jealous husband.

    nk (dbc370)

  60. Some of your clients nk

    Narciso (7d6b16)

  61. the banal argument that the Second Amendment only applies to the militia

    The Klan’s argument, you mean. “So sorry, non-white-person, but since we don’t let you into the militia, you can’t have a gun.”
    Kevin M (5d3e49) — 7/20/2018 @ 5:43 pm

    I don’t even know where to begin here. Just about anything I could say is racist. Like how the guest of honor at my wedding was black. My Leading Petty Officer was black. I couldn’t give half a s*** if you are black. I bunked with a man who was black.

    Ok, I guess I know where to begin.

    Steve57 (0b1dac)

  62. My wife was Japanese.

    Steve57 (0b1dac)


    I’m Staying with My Boys: The Heroic Life of Sgt. John Basilone, USMC

    You had best bow your head when passing Basilone Road on the I-5 passing through Pendleton. Manila John. How many metaphors am I mixing? Anyway, bought the book.

    Steve57 (0b1dac)

  64. For extraordinary heroism and conspicuous gallantry in action against enemy Japanese forces, above and beyond the call of duty, while serving with the 1st Battalion, 7th Marines, 1st Marine Division in the Lunga Area. Guadalcanal, Solomon Islands, on 24 and 25 October 1942. While the enemy was hammering at the Marines’ defensive positions, Sgt. Basilone, in charge of 2 sections of heavy machineguns, fought valiantly to check the savage and determined assault. In a fierce frontal attack with the Japanese blasting his guns with grenades and mortar fire, one of Sgt. Basilone’s sections, with its guncrews, was put out of action, leaving only 2 men able to carry on. Moving an extra gun into position, he placed it in action, then, under continual fire, repaired another and personally manned it, gallantly holding his line until replacements arrived. A little later, with ammunition critically low and the supply lines cut off, Sgt. Basilone, at great risk of his life and in the face of continued enemy attack, battled his way through hostile lines with urgently needed shells for his gunners, thereby contributing in large measure to the virtual annihilation of a Japanese regiment. His great personal valor and courageous initiative were in keeping with the highest traditions of the U.S. Naval Service.

    I literally don’t have the words.

    John Basilone’s Citation for his Navy Cross
    Which he earned at Iwo Jima
    “For extraordinary heroism while serving as a leader of a Machine-Gun Section of Company C, First Battalion, Twenty-Seventh Marines, Fifth Marine Division, in Action against enemy Japanese forces on Iwo Jima in the Volcano Islands, 19 February 1945. Shrewdly gauging the tactical situation shortly after landing when his company’s advance was held up by the concentrated fire of heavily fortified Japanese blockhouse, Gunnery Sergeant Basilone boldly defied The smashing bombardment of heavy caliber fire to work his way around the flank and up to a position directly on top of the blockhouse and then, attacking With grenades and demolitions, single-handedly destroyed the entire hostile strongpoint and its defending garrison. Consistently daring and aggressive as he fought his way over the battle-torn beach and up the sloping, gun-studded terraces toward Airfield Number One, he repeatedly exposed himself to the blasting fury of exploding shells and later in the day coolly proceeded to the aid of a friendly tank which had been trapped in an enemy mine field under intense mortar and artillery Barrages, skillfully guiding the heavy vehicle over the hazardous terrain to safety, despite the overwhelming volume of hostile fire. In the forefront of the assault at all times, he pushed forward with dauntless courage and iron determination until, moving upon the edge of the airfield, he fell, instantly by a bursting mortar shell. Stout-hearted and indomitable, Gunnery Sergeant Basilone by his intrepid initiative, outstanding professional skill and valiant spirit of self-sacrifice in the face of fanatic opposition, contributed materially to the advance of his company during the early critical period of the assault, and his unwavering devotion to his comrades and reflects the highest credit upon Gunnery Sergeant Basilone and the United States Naval Service.”

    I look forward to a good read.

    Steve57 (0b1dac)

  65. Ok, I guess I know where to begin.

    Not sure why that was directed at me. And yes, half my wedding guests and one of my groomsmen were black, too. But I’m not sure why that comes up.

    Kevin M (5d3e49)

  66. Steve,m

    HBO’s The Pacific follows Basilone from Guadalcanal to Iwo.

    Kevin M (5d3e49)

  67. No, no, no! We’ll let non-whites have guns. But they’ll have to shoot reduced charges — three-fifths the powder and lead of normal loads.

    nk (dbc370)

  68. Sovereign Citizens are playing a crazy new game that’s sweeping the nation. It’s called Rock, Scissors, Paper, Baton, People vs Battle


    Baton always wins Language Warning

    Pinandpuller (bf2046)

  69. During both world wars no blacks were alowed to win the congressional medal of honor because of racist southern white officers. Only in recent years was this racism partly offset.

    wendell (350e91)

  70. HBO’s The Pacific follows Basilone from Guadalcanal to Iwo.
    Kevin M (5d3e49) — 7/20/2018 @ 11:28 pm

    Only because of the Marines did I become a Naval officer.

    Should you want to know where this is coming from I’m sick of the white privilege s***. I’ve got your white privilege. And I want to shove it up…

    Steve57 (0b1dac)

  71. Just venting.

    Steve57 (0b1dac)

  72. Bullets???? Cartridges, silly.

    cm smith (127d9e) — 7/20/2018 @ 4:41 pm

    I’m familiar with the nomenclature, in case you were unsure. Ask me about reloading the .416 Rigby.

    Ask me about the Lyman shotshell reloading guide. The Barnes bullet reloading manual. I do all the normal calibers. The Reloaders Guide 1995. Yeah, I’m that old.

    Steve57 (0b1dac)


    Actually I sold the .375. I kept the .416. There just wasn’t much of a slot between the .416 and the .338.

    Steve57 (0b1dac)

  74. There’s a strange thing happening over in Japan – SHOCKAH!!! – that is fast becoming all teh rage…

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  75. Yes it was all on the up and up, like with everything khuzaimi is a,party to

    Narciso (eca941)

  76. japanese mens say
    compressed air shot up yer ass
    is a gas gas gas

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  77. Thanks, Kevin. I will make sure to buy it on disk.

    Steve57 (0b1dac)

  78. During both world wars no blacks were alowed to win the congressional medal of honor because of racist southern white officers. Only in recent years was this racism partly offset.

    wendell (350e91) — 7/21/2018 @ 2:53 am

    You could be right. I don’t know. But not everyone rates the Navy Cross.,

    …The Navy Cross now precedes the Navy Distinguished Service Medal.

    Nimitz pinned the medal on him his own self. You do understand, don’t you, it was Woodrow Wilson who segregated the Navy? Nimitz and King and other admials from the pre-WWI era knew black men could do the job. In fact even after racist Democrats were large and in charge in D.C. there were black men grandfathered in as Torpedo men and Gunnery chiefs.

    …On September 16, 1939, he enlisted in the United States Navy, where he became a Mess Attendant Third Class, one of the few ratings then open to African Americans.[7] Following training at the Naval Training Station, Norfolk, Virginia,

    Admirals like Nimitz, Halsey, pre-Wilson, were frustrated by the fact they couldn’t use there manpower effectively. Black Sailors were angry they were limited to certain occupations. So they got shore duty. White Sailors got constantly shoved to sea. Race riots..

    Here’s a little known fact. While Black, Filipino, Guamanian men were technically confined to specialties such as mess men, that didn’t apply to general quarters stations. And the most racist gun captain couldn’t have cared less if you you were black or white as long as you were effective. They recruited you.

    Steve57 (0b1dac)

  79. Miller was advanced to Mess Attendant Second Class on February 16, 1941. In July he was on temporary duty on the Nevada at the Secondary Battery Gunnery School. He returned to West Virginia in August.

    Steve57 (0b1dac)

  80. What do you think of Robert l Williams the precursor to the Panthers, who thought sanctuary in Havana and hanoi?

    Narciso (eca941)


    This is an account of the USS Sea Cloud, IX 99, which became an experiment in racial integration aboard U. S. naval vessels from December, 1943 to November, 1944…

    I normally don’t use wiki as a source but it’s also available at the Coast Guard web site.

    Steve57 (0b1dac)

  82. I’d be lying I told you I had an opinion, narciso. Never heard of him.

    Steve57 (0b1dac)

  83. Well it’s an actual source, wiki is only as good or bad as it’s sourcing.

    Narciso (eca941)

  84. He is presented as a rational exponent of second amendment philosophy for African Americans, he had settle up a rifle club to defend against the clan

    Narciso (eca941)

  85. Ok, will you accept Eagle Speak?

    I’m having trouble with the USCG history and heritage site.

    Steve57 (0b1dac)

  86. Sounds like my kind of guy.

    Steve57 (0b1dac)

  87. Except he went and sought training in Cuba because he was denied the exercise of his rights, now the Panthers were thugs but he genuinely thought he had a case.

    Narciso (eca941)

  88. The Gun Control Act of 1968 was so that the Black Panthers could not buy guns and ammunition by mail order.

    nk (dbc370)

  89. I’m having difficulty understanding your point. Really. If a man was a first powderman or a first shell man, he was a man.

    I hate having to resort to wiki again.

    Slides the primer protector off the powder case, and then lifts the case from the powder scuttle at his feet to the gun’s rammer tray.

    Moves the projectile from the hoist to the rammer tray, and then he pulls the rammer lever to load the projectile and powder case into the chamber.

    Steve57 (0b1dac)

  90. The shell man could move a 60 pound projectile something like 10 times per minute. For as long as the battle lasted.

    Steve57 (0b1dac)

  91. I’m wanting the Supreme Court to rule CA’s laws regarding fixed magazines overturned. I am irritated to have to use adaptations like these, and the speed of use issues presented may just get me killed (with this takedown pin )

    steveg (a9dcab)

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