Patterico's Pontifications

6/24/2018

Should Other Countries Target Trump’s Businesses?

Filed under: General — Patterico @ 9:02 am



Business Insider has an article that claims that countries upset about Trump’s tariffs are thinking about targeting Trump’s businesses in retaliation:

President Donald Trump’s headlong push toward a trade war is prompting unprecedented responses from countries around the world and blowback from top US allies.

In the past three months, Trump has hit countries around the world with a 25% tariff on steel and a 10% tariff on aluminum exports to the US. The decision prompted a swift response from US allies, including retaliatory tariffs and a radical departure in treatment from other formerly friendly foreign leaders — from Canadian Prime Minister Justin Trudeau to French President Emmanuel Macron.

But so far these responses have done little to deter Trump from moving forward with his trade agenda, prompting the the consideration of an out-of-the-box response for an out-of-the-box president.

Op-eds in The Houston Chronicle and the Canadian news magazine Maclean’s suggested the only way to quell the rising trade tensions is to strike at Trump’s businesses. While some countries, such as China, have appeared to try and sway the president through treating his family’s businesses more favorably, countries have not made moves to curtail the businesses’ activity within their borders.

This appears to be a case of fantasy; it’s a couple of op-eds and some politicos replying politely when asked about it. To me, it’s not worth a post based on the notion that it’s going to happen, because it’s not. It’s worth a post as a thought experiment about how people would discuss this option if it did occur — and as a warning about the danger of double standards.

Because if any country actually got up the nerve to do this (none will), it would be hard to mount a principled argument against it — that is, if you have been claiming so far that the favorable treatment his businesses have received from other countries is defensible.

And this is the problem with defending the indefensible. Eventually the argument gets turned around on you. As Popehat pointed out:

Similarly, if you promote the notion that Trump’s businesses are unrelated to his decisionmaking, and try to portray other countries’ using Trump businesses as a matter of no concern, then if it comes time for you to point out that countries are now targeting his businesses, you may find nobody cares.

The larger problem here is when a Democrat with very flawed character seeks the presidency. Remember how bad you said Hillary was? In four years, you’ll be telling me that whoever they picked this time was worse. But if you’ve spent four years defending Trump’s poor character, your complaints about the Democrats’ character are going to be less convincing.

And so it goes with applying a different standard to Trump than you would apply to anyone else. People will remember.

[Cross-posted at The Jury Talks Back.]

354 Responses to “Should Other Countries Target Trump’s Businesses?”

  1. Who made the rules indeed?

    Narciso (545189)

  2. Foreign countries focused on the Clinton businesses to their advantage.

    AZ Bob (07f1eb)

  3. Trump was hired by the American people because of what you call his faults, not in spite of them.

    When one hires a hit man one rarely gets a gentleman and scholar.

    The gentlemen and scholars you oh so moral, upright and courteous lot foisted on us were useless tits, all of them.

    Fred Z (0bec54)

  4. If you promote someone who contemptuously defies every norm of civility,

    “every norm of civility” became equated with “opposing Republicans” long before Trump came on the scene.

    People were so much more receptive to “pointing out a lie” before Trump fouled everything up. Is our memory that out of whack? Popehat may as well be lecturing all the unicorns in his world.

    random viking (6a54c2)

  5. we’ve already seen how nevertrump trash can rationalize literally anything because trump

    let em boycott all the things

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  6. Has anyone ever seen a side-by-side comparison of tariffs the US and countries we trade with currently have in place? I think it might be helpful.

    Colonel Haiku (f125a7)

  7. nervertrump doesn’t do fact-based logics Mr. Colonel it’s all about the feels with those ones

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  8. “If you promote someone who contemptuously defies every norm of civility,”

    Thinking like this leads to red henning, as in “teh sonuva biscuit gave me teh redhen”.

    Colonel Haiku (f125a7)

  9. The Know Nothings are in ascendance across ideologies.

    Ed from SFV (6d42fa)

  10. President Trump’s policies are making people’s lives better. And that’s how people of good character govern.

    Moreover he’s exposed our corrupt lickspittle Department of Justice and he’s exposed the sleazy hot and horny men and women of the lawless, cowardly FBI.

    Obama raped prosperity and he raped jobs and he raped black people and he raped children. His policies damaged lives and ruined futures and destroyed hopes.

    Obama corrupted the DOJ and the sluthouse FBI and the IRS and the EPA and much more besides.

    Obama’s dirty trash-filth immemorial.

    Tnis is obvious to anyone who is willing to do the analysis.

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  11. You guys have been crying this river for two years. Trumps character, blah, blah, blah. You’ve been obsessing about the weak character of the man as you see him not as the politician. Why, he said he could grab pussy! So what? What’s that got to do with unemployment? But, but Trump screwed strippers and maybe even call girls and hookers. And what has that to do wit meeting Kim? And he’s a “pathological liar”. No, he’s a bullsh!ter. Hillary is a pathological liar. He’s the biggest most vulgar and boorish bullsh!ter who ever was in the Oval Office. What’s that got to do with appointing good judges? Or increasing manufacturing jobs, or tax cuts, or rolling back business killing regulations? Absolutely nothing, that’s what.

    I guess I understand him more than you guys because I’m an Eastern big-city vulgar pig myself. That’s why you guys think I’m a racist, anti Semitic extremist. I did business in big cities with the same type of a$$holes Trump did so that’s the way I am. You guys are all smarter, better educated, richer than I and you all know you’re better than me. And you all know you’re better than Trump. Hell, I’m lucky you even allow a “flawed” person like me to even comment with you Great Minds. But Trump is first and foremost a promoter. A fight promoter, a game promoter a beauty contest promoter, a casino promoter a development promoter and an inveterate self promoter.

    But one thing he hasn’t done so far and I bet he won’t do is deliberately hurt America. Hillary put Hillary in front of everything even her country. Trump is a billionaire who wanted to save this country from the radical left juggernaut that is consuming and destroying every American institution from religion to immigration and education to race relations. He is the Anti-Hillary! Hillary walked into politics a penniless shyster and came out a disbarred multimillionaire and never had a legitimate pay check over $185,000 a year.

    You say Trump, and by extension his supporters have flawed character. I say if loving America more than money and power is a flawed character I’ll live with it. Trump has all the democrats lined against him, all the media, all academia, all Hollywood and the little pea brained celebrities, all the “world government-pro immigration-no borders” world leaders (with or without eyebrows), the NFL and all those “children” marching against YOUR right to own guns, the #resist, the CPUSA, the neverTrumpers and now it seems even restaurants want to deny service to Trump supporters. Yet he keeps right on fighting to do what he thinks is best to Make America Great Again. Note: Red Hen (aptly named the commie chickens) didn’t refuse service to Trump they refused service to his supporters. Because we are bad, see?

    When was the last time you heard someone use the term “American Exceptionalism”? Quite a while I’m sure. It was stricken form the lexicon by the Barrack cult because America to them is not exceptional. It’s racist, bigoted, misogynistic, Islamophobic, homophobic and oh yeah, racist.

    Trump has a flawed character. So do you. But at least he loves America to risk his fortune to fix her. He certainly ain’t gonna get richer by being boycotted and blacklisted by the left.

    Meanwhile, the man who precipitated America’s decline or at lest speed it up, Hussein Obama is pulling in a cool $60 million from Netfliks. Think about that. Then tell me who has “character flaws”.

    Rev.Hoagie (c5d6cf)

  12. the fascist nazi EU’s already targeting failmerican businesses like crazy anyways, and the filthy chinesers have always always always kept their boot on the neck of American companies while munching away on a tasty leg of dog

    but to be fair slutbama and his deep state gestapo targeted the crap out of volkswagen and bp and deutsche and basically gangstered anything they could gangster

    The Obama administration assessed $20 billion in corporate fines and settlements in its final days, according to new data from the nonprofit group Good Jobs First in Washington, D.C.

    Between 2010 and 2016, the Obama administration racked up more than $320 billion in corporate fines and settlements, Good Jobs First reports.

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  13. If you promote someone who contemptuously defies every norm of civility, and argue that civility doesn’t matter and that its absence is refreshing and honest, and build an ideology around upsetting people …. folks might start to take you at your word, and you may not like it.Also: if you promote a pathological liar, constantly argue that his lies don’t matter, try to portray his lies as a rhetorical style, and deflect criticism of his lies as “fake news” or partisanship, when it comes time for you to point out a lie, you may find nobody gives a shit.

    Strawman.

    BuDuh (d4526e)

  14. Hang in there, Hoagie! The narrative is that Trump hasn’t accomplished much of anything or has but only with his pen, as if the Congress bears no responsibility for legislation, or that they don’t have an obligation to do right by the voters who elected them, even if they personally detest Trump.

    Colonel Haiku (f125a7)

  15. And how many times must someone agree that Trump’s poor character is among many of his regrettable personality flaws before it’s noticed? It still doesn’t rule out that some believe they must provide support to counter this incessant insurgency and attempted soft-coup that some willfully aid and abet.

    Colonel Haiku (f125a7)

  16. Oh please Hoagie! Loving America is partisan at its core, and partisanship is a sure sign of a flawed character. Any moral giant knows this. You moral pygmy you.

    the Bas (ca2d1a)

  17. meanwhile Maxine Waters is openly calling for trump staffers to be necklaced in the streets

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  18. I mean really! America herself makes Trump look like the pope. Founded in traitorous rebellion to her king, built on slavery, won by genocide of the native population, exploiters of the poor by the parisitical capitalism of the rich and powerful, warmongers that have nuked cities, chalk full of racists, flooding the world with its evil culture of greed, perversion, and sloth.

    Anyone supporting such a fundamentally flawed country of poor character must themselves be as deplorable.

    Or so the gentlemen and women, er, I mean people of the Ivy league would have us believe.

    the Bas (ca2d1a)

  19. Great post. You and Popehat both nailed it.

    Any policy screw-ups, or accidental successes, of Trump’s time in office, will likely be ephemeral.

    But the damage he is doing to our country through his immorality, dishonesty and wickedness will never heal.

    And spare me your “But Hillary…” and “But Obama…”. Democrats being immoral and dishonest is old news. Our side used to be different.

    Dave (445e97)

  20. I don’t think I’ve ever convinced anyone of any lack of Democrat moral character. It was already something that was wholly ineffective at changing minds. Bringing up any morality simply gets Republicans labeled as moral busybodies. I’m not sure there’s a loss in this situation.

    Dejectedhead (9ebd51)

  21. yes yes while George W Bush slaughtered women and children by the tens of thousands (and thousands of our own tatters to boot) Republicans stood tall, a moral beacon for all the whirl to see

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  22. The media and Democrats were always so effusive in their regard for Bush/McCain/Romney’s honesty and morality. I remember that so well.

    Nobody, except delusional NeverTrumpers, thinks “our side used to be different.”

    random viking (6a54c2)

  23. These retaliatory tariffs are completely arbitrary, so legally they can do it. But it reality, it should be written into free trade agreements and the WTO that they can’t, but the retaliation has to be selected according to some pre-arranged principle.. But the people who negotiated those agreements didn’t want to negotiate that. Thuis leaves alot of room for politicalk influence and bribery.

    These countries are already doing it, but they are doing it with regard to political interess – targeting Kentucky Bourbon for instance, because the senate majority leader, Mitch McConnell, is from Kentucky. This would only be a small step further in that direction – but they may not want to go because the corruption incentive would be hard to pull back from. They may afraid of going too far because they could be accused of offering a bribe – and everything would be a cesspool, and it would hard then for every tariff decision not to be looked at in that way.

    For now, they are satisfied with retaliation against the political base of politicians in the other country.

    From the viewpoint of the United States targeting Trump would be very bad because this would be something much stronger even than giving him or not giving him an emolument, and yet you couldn’t avoid it. I guess this maybe could be a test to see if Trump really is affected by his business interests, as some political opponents claim. Trump might actually be less likely to cave because Democrats could theraten impeachment if Trump did reverse himself after such a thing (although they’d do it really only after he did)

    Trump, of course, if he was bothered by this, could, and probably would, look for some conflicts of interest the individual leaders of some other countries might have. Maybe their political supporters if they haven’t got business interests that can be affected by U.S. decisopns on tariffs.

    He’s already sympathetic to action detrimental to amazon.com because Jeff Bezos cotrols it, and also owns the Washington Post.

    Sammy Finkelman (02a146)

  24. Meanwhile, the man who precipitated America’s decline or at lest speed it up, Hussein Obama is pulling in a cool $60 million from Netfliks. Think about that. Then tell me who has “character flaws”.

    You lost me here Hoagie.

    When Trump gets rich, it’s patriotic, and when Obama does it, it’s a character flaw?

    Do you think Trump worked for free when he was on TV?

    Dave (445e97)

  25. Remember how bad you said Hillary was? In four years, you’ll be telling me that whoever they picked this time was worse.

    I don’t think so.

    The accusation would be that the Democrat was incompetent and foolish, making impossible promises, too liberal and extreme, and would endanger the country.

    Sammy Finkelman (02a146)

  26. Hoagie, before two years ago, I wouldn’t have put you in the same category as Trump. Now you proudly insist that you are. I believe you. You seem to think that’s a good thing. I think it’s not. I don’t know what you’re like when you aren’t commenting here, but I know that you’ve changed, profoundly, and from my point of view, decidedly for the worst.

    It’s obviously because you’ve joined the Cult of Trump. And I lament it: Your change, from a rational person to one of the nastiest, most hateful people I’ve ever encountered online, is to my way of thinking a profound and tragic example of the corrosive effect of Donald Trump on the entire American character and morality.

    I do think character matters. I think it matters because if a president has the reputation of being a flighty, self-obsessed liar, he can’t lead. Obama didn’t lead either. And the result of both failures of leadership is a gridlocked Congress.

    I think the only way it stops mattering is if one gives up principles and instead invests himself or herself entirely in the politics of the tribe — “our tribe” versus everyone else. But the way Trump, and you, define your tribe, I don’t fit into it. And thus we see people like you, at blogs like this, accusing me, or Patterico, or a half dozen other commenters here, of the worst sorts of things — like being responsible for the decline of western civilization. You daily make things up that you think we think, and attack us for it. We’re insufficiently worshipful of your cult hero; indeed, we disrespect him, because we think he’s a disgrace, but you treat that as if we’ve insulted you personally instead of him, and as if we’re therefore indistinguishable from the hardest of the hard-core left — which is preposterous bullsh!t. Yet you sling it — not at our arguments or ideas, but at us personally.

    This week our inconsistent, babbling POTUS undercut his own party’s efforts to somehow address the politically existential threat to Republican control of Congress posed by events on the border. After fumbling spectacularly in the face of a well-coordinated and manufactured wave of hard-left outrage, Trump flipped himself 180-degrees, signed a dubiously effective executive order effectively capitulating to the left, and then told Congressional Republicans that they should punt on the entire issue until after the mid-term elections. This is the opposite of leadership. It’s a disaster, and it’s likely to result in Dems taking one or both chambers of Congress in November, after which no good things are going to happen in Congress. Trump’s lack of genuine leadership is closely tied to his unfitness for office and his lack of personal character, to his inability to do anything but, as you correctly note, “promote” — but he’s all sizzle, no steak. And after stunts like he’s pulled in the past week, or the week before with the “peace for our times”/”the nuclear threat from North Korea is ended” nonsense after he got taken for a world-class fool by a third-rate dictator, he has even less ability to lead.

    All he can do is gin up his supporters like you, those who’ve signed on to the Trump cult, after which you then lash out at those who actually would like to see some things like a repeal of Obamacare, a reform of entitlements spending, and a raft of other domestic and foreign policy accomplishments that require participation from Congress.

    The supposed master of the Art of the Deal still hasn’t negotiated and closed a single damn deal of consequence himself, and he’s almost half-way through his presidency. Instead we’ve got this cluster-frack of chaos.

    I don’t look down on you, Hoagie. But reading what you write here now makes me profoundly sad. You’re drunk on Trump fumes, and you’ve come to prefer that to the sanity you displayed here before you made the willing, deliberate decision to become the kind of Trump supporter you now are — profane, hate-filled, trenchantly sarcastic and cutting, impatient, vulgar, and xenophobic.

    Beldar (fa637a)

  27. Nobody, except delusional NeverTrumpers, thinks “our side used to be different.”

    So it’s your position that the Republican Party is, and has always been, every bit as immoral and dishonest as the Democratic Party?

    I guess I should have quit sooner.

    Dave (445e97)

  28. Remember when McCain forbade his campaign from using Obama’s middle name? Now there’s the kinda good character our moral betters want to live and die by.

    Mostly die.

    But hey! What a moral paragon!

    the Bas (ca2d1a)

  29. McCain’s a coward and a deeply degenerate, sickly warped person and it’s not at all clear he’d have been a lesser disaster for america and the whirl than obama proved to be Mr. Bas

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  30. Beldar (fa637a) — 6/24/2018 @ 11:42 am

    *microphone drops*

    Dave (445e97)

  31. So it’s your position that the Republican Party is, and has always been, every bit as immoral and dishonest as the Democratic Party?

    I guess I should have quit sooner.

    Dave (445e97) — 6/24/2018 @ 11:42 am

    Bingo. The Republican Party — absolutely. Individual Republicans—no.

    random viking (6a54c2)

  32. Remember when McCain forbade his campaign from using Obama’s middle name?

    He didn’t tweet unflattering pictures of Obama’s wife or accuse his father of complicity in the JFK assassination, either.

    Anything, however immoral, is OK if helps you win, right Mr. Alinsky?

    Dave (445e97)

  33. Beldar,

    your continued insults towards Hoagie are absurd and unwarranted. He speaks from the heart because he sees how much damage the left has done to our nation. You ignore that at your peril.

    As for Trump, he speaks with bluster and arrogance unlike McCain who just shoves a shiv into your back. Just ask the IRS and Lois Lerner.

    NJRob (b00189)

  34. But if you’ve spent four years defending Trump’s poor character, your complaints about the Democrats’ character are going to be less convincing.

    Kinda like how if you supported McCain when he ran for president, your complains about Trumps character are not too convincing.

    the Bas (ca2d1a)

  35. Yesterday, following up on a comment from Haiku which asserted that “America is infected with leftist twatwaffles bent on destroying the country and they must be dealt with as humanely as possible,” Hoagie posted this:

    When the time comes I will deal with them as humanely as I did with their comrades in Vietnam.

    I literally shuddered when I read that, Hoagie. I wondered if you’d pull the trigger if I were in your gun sights. I thought to myself, “Well, if Hoagie goes postal next week and shoots up a school, this will be one of his comments that the news media will seize upon.

    No, I don’t think you’re actually likely to go postal. But would I be as surprised tomorrow if that happens, as I would have been if it’d happened back in late 2015, just based on what I know of your comments on this blog from then versus now? No, sadly, I would not be as surprised.

    Beldar (fa637a)

  36. Anything, however immoral, is OK if helps you win, right Mr. Alinsky?

    Dave (445e97) — 6/24/2018 @ 11:59 am

    A guess leveraging a bogus dossier counts as moral.

    random viking (6a54c2)

  37. Beldar is wondering out loud if Hoagie is going to murder him or shoot up a school……

    And Hoagie’s the problem?

    Please be more careful with your delusions folks, these comments are in plain view for all to see.

    harkin (e5c973)

  38. Kinda like how if you supported McCain when he ran for president, your complains about Trumps character are not too convincing.

    Maybe the difference is that McCain takes responsibility for his mistakes?

    Sound marriages can be hard to recover after great time and distance have separated a husband and wife. We are different people when we reunite. But my marriage’s collapse was attributable to my own selfishness and immaturity more than it was to Vietnam, and I cannot escape blame by pointing a finger at the war. The blame was entirely mine. – John McCain

    Dave (445e97)

  39. To these peopke like ConDave who pat themselves on their backs and mince about being happy to leave the political party they claim to have supported, I say good riddance, hope it all works out for you.

    Colonel Haiku (f125a7)

  40. He didn’t tweet unflattering pictures of Obama’s wife or accuse his father of complicity in the JFK assassination, either.

    You are confusing the primary with the general, but OK. let’s take a look back at the virtuous campaign of the Republican poster boy.

    Eight years ago this month, John McCain took the New Hampshire primary and was favored to win in South Carolina. Had he succeeded, he would likely have thwarted the presidential aspirations of George W. Bush and become the Republican nominee. But Bush strategist Karl Rove came to the rescue with a vicious smear tactic.

    Rove invented a uniquely injurious fiction for his operatives to circulate via a phony poll. Voters were asked, “Would you be more or less likely to vote for John McCain…if you knew he had fathered an illegitimate black child?” This was no random slur. McCain was at the time campaigning with his dark-skinned daughter, Bridget, adopted from Bangladesh.

    It worked. Owing largely to the Rove-orchestrated whispering campaign, Bush prevailed in South Carolina and secured the Republican nomination. The rest is history–specifically the tragic and blighted history of our young century. It worked in another way as well. Too shaken to defend himself, McCain emerged from the bruising episode less maverick reformer and more Manchurian candidate.

    So, as we see, Trump learned from McCain’s cowardice, and when Mr. Morality Cruz smeared his wife, punched back twice as hard…and won.

    This is the real reason “conservatives” think Trump is less moral than acceptable. He actually fights.

    How vulgar.

    the Bas (ca2d1a)

  41. Embrace your delusion, just don’t bill anyone for it.

    Colonel Haiku (f125a7)

  42. when Mr. Morality Cruz smeared his wife

    Liar.

    Dave (445e97)

  43. Should his suppliers merely be targeted, or his property vandalized or like Malcolm nuance suggested re licensed properties in turkey,, detonated by Islamic state, tell me what the rules are. Noting in the mid aughts they had a Spanish edition of Hatfield poison pen, nero of the 21st century.

    No Beldam, hoagie means the people who judged John O’neill and Randall Harold, who deemed everyone thanks to John Kerry, a lt valley, rinse and repeat for the Iraq war with moumadiyah and hafitha,

    narciso (d1f714)

  44. It was Trump who claimed he would reveal the truth about ted Cruz’s wife — then ttweeted that she wans’t pretty.

    Sammy Finkelman (02a146)

  45. Do not try to tell me Trump respects the Rule of Law:

    We cannot allow all of these people to invade our Country. When somebody comes in, we must immediately, with no Judges or Court Cases, bring them back from where they came. Our system is a mockery to good immigration policy and Law and Order. Most children come without parents…— Donald J. Trump (@realDonaldTrump) June 24, 2018

    What is this but a demand that Trump be ceded the powers of a dictator to act above the law? How many devoted Trump supporters will pump their fists in the air and shout their approval, cursing the judges and the Congress and anyone else who gets in Trump’s way?

    Beldar (fa637a)

  46. Maybe the difference is that McCain takes responsibility for his mistakes?

    Has he taken responsibility yet on doing the exact opposite of what he promised in his campaign?

    https://ilovemyfreedom.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/07/mccainobamacare.png

    harkin (e5c973)

  47. Bow the tosca performance from a while back, who was the star again?

    narciso (d1f714)

  48. The bit about Karl Rove and the “whispering campaign” is another leftist slander. Thanks for repeating it.

    There is no evidence linking Rove to the charge. Rove has said a professor from Bob Jones University was responsible. The NY Times reported the same in 2007:

    People in some areas of South Carolina began to receive phone calls in which self-described pollsters would ask, “Would you be more likely or less likely to vote for John McCain for president if you knew he had fathered an illegitimate black child?”

    It was a reference to Bridget, who was adopted as a baby from an orphanage in Bangladesh and is darker skinned than the rest of the McCain family. Richard Hand, a professor at Bob Jones University, sent an e-mail message to “fellow South Carolinians” telling recipients that Mr. McCain had “chosen to sire children without marriage.”

    It was in the left’s interests, and a standard page of their playbook, to smear President Bush, through Rove, and now, true to form, you are aping them to deflect criticism from Trump.

    Dave (445e97)

  49. john mccain’s a liar and a fraud

    and you really have to wonder if he’s really sick or if he’s just hiding like a coward to avoid any questions/consequences about how he shopped the phony urinating hooker dossier for so the fbi could use it to extort a resignation from President Trump

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  50. No has just sloppy with who his thinktank has associated with in the past be it Milan (the peter lorre like character) akmetchin who he worked with in Kazakhstan, against nazarbayev or klimnik who was hired from the gru.

    narciso (d1f714)

  51. 25. Beldar (fa637a) — 6/24/2018 @ 11:42 am

    Trump’s lack of genuine leadership is closely tied to his unfitness for office and his lack of personal character, to his inability to do anything but, as you correctly note, “promote” — but he’s all sizzle, no steak.

    Well, yes, but you need something more than that.

    He seems to be afraid of his base, and, more important, senses that the Democrats are. > Because they won’t take them on, openly. They never take on any of tehse tropes. At most they call names and knock down straw men.

    Trump goes around and collects some people who were survivors of people who were murdered by illegal immigrants, and the Democrats say…

    NOTHING.

    That makes him feel he has the upper hand.

    He tells a couple of ridiculous lies about immigrants and crime, and the Democrats sau:

    NOTHING.

    (The media challenges that, but not the Democrats.)

    But they challenge it in a peculiar way.

    Like this:

    https://www.nytimes.com/2018/06/21/opinion/blood-libel-trump-immigrants.html

    True, if we look across America there is a correlation between violent crime and the prevalence of undocumented immigrants — a negative correlation. That is, places with a lot of immigrants, legal and undocumented, tend to have exceptionally low crime rates. The poster child for this tale of un-carnage is the biggest city of them all: New York, where more than a third of the population is foreign-born, probably including around half a million undocumented immigrants — and crime has fallen to levels not seen since the 1950s.

    And this really shouldn’t be surprising, because criminal conviction data show that immigrants, both legal and undocumented, are significantly less likely to commit crimes than the native-born.

    (the problem with that is the term “native born.”)

    What would be interesting to know is what the rate of immigrants compared to non-Hispanic whites. Nobody seems to say that. If it is lower, then they’d really have something.

    Anyway, Trump is a New Yorker, with deep roots in the real estate business (even though he got out of anything that wasn’t luxury housing) and he knows that immigrants did not drive up the crime rate in the 1960s and 1970s. He knows what group of people his father discriminated against before 1973, and it wasn’t immigrants.

    No matter what kind of phony statistics somebody gives him.

    Sammy Finkelman (02a146)

  52. “If you promote someone who contemptuously defies every norm of civility, and argue that civility doesn’t matter and that its absence is refreshing and honest, and build an ideology around upsetting people …. folks might start to take you at your word, and you may not like it.”

    Yes. For instance, they might elect Trump.

    “Also: if you promote a pathological liar, constantly argue that his lies don’t matter, try to portray his lies as a rhetorical style, and deflect criticism of his lies as “fake news” or partisanship, when it comes time for you to point out a lie, you may find nobody gives a shit.”

    Indeed. They might even elect shamelessly elect Trump after eight years of Clinton and eight of Obama.

    Really, all of this staggering lack of shame from neolibs and ‘libertarins’ is risible, always accompanied by assumptions that they have absolutely nothing to apologize for in the past eight years.

    Obama and the Democrats made the new rules. We’re merely abiding by them, indeed probably too leniently.

    “Any policy screw-ups, or accidental successes, of Trump’s time in office, will likely be ephemeral.”

    The POLICY SCREW-UPS are on policies that are usually bad for our country but great for a small number of urbanistas and CoC people.

    “But the damage he is doing to our country through his immorality, dishonesty and wickedness will never heal.”

    PEOPLE ARE ACTUALLY VOTING THEIR INTERESTS AND RETALIATING IN KIND FOR LEFTIST AGGRESSION, CAN THIS ‘DAMAGE’ TO OUR PLANS OF MAKING LOADS OF MONEY BY BEING THE FAKE GENTEEL OPPOSITION EVER BE REPAIRED???

    “And spare me your “But Hillary…” and “But Obama…”. Democrats being immoral and dishonest is old news. Our side used to be different.”

    Please repeat the words ‘We in the Civil Conservative Class deserved this reciprocity and punitive actions on top of that because we callously silenced our dissenters and never lifted a finger to seriously redress the justified grievances of our voters in the boom years’ to yourself ten times every morning.

    Alternatively, you can repeat Sam Hyde’s “When we win, do not forget these people want you broke, dead, your kids raped and brainwashed, and they think it’s funny.”

    Dysphoria Sam (312848)

  53. But that’s the thing Sammy, you think the Dems are gonna risk putting the mirror to the 85/15 bloc in order to defend the 70/30 bloc? You’d need more open Kanye defections to loosen the restraint, and what is the point when the NeverTrump are still hesitant to follow the path of the Trent Lott generation and actually switch parties.

    urbanleftbehind (cdf37a)

  54. Has he taken responsibility yet on doing the exact opposite of what he promised in his campaign?

    McCain voted twice to repeal Obamacare in this congress.

    He returned to Washington to cast the decisive vote to take up the repeal (it passed 51-50 with Pence’s tie-break), and he voted in favor of the first, repeal and replace, bill that Collins, Murkowski, Heller, Corker, Cotton, Graham, Lee, Moran and Paul all voted against). He just didn’t vote for the last-ditch, “skinny repeal” bill.

    And yes, he has taken responsibility for his vote against “skinny repeal” and explained it at length:

    “From the beginning, I have believed that Obamacare should be repealed and replaced with a solution that increases competition, lowers costs, and improves care for the American people. The so-called ‘skinny repeal’ amendment the Senate voted on today would not accomplish those goals.

    While the amendment would have repealed some of Obamacare’s most burdensome regulations, it offered no replacement to actually reform our health care system and deliver affordable, quality health care to our citizens. The Speaker’s statement that the House would be ‘willing’ to go to conference does not ease my concern that this shell of a bill could be taken up and passed at any time.

    I’ve stated time and time again that one of the major failures of Obamacare was that it was rammed through Congress by Democrats on a strict-party line basis without a single Republican vote. We should not make the mistakes of the past that has led to Obamacare’s collapse, including in my home state of Arizona where premiums are skyrocketing and health care providers are fleeing the marketplace.”

    Dave (445e97)

  55. Do not try to tell me Trump respects the Rule of Law

    Geez Beldar, talk about tilting at strawmen!

    Who in the world would advance such a absurd claim?

    🙂

    Dave (445e97)

  56. *an

    Dave (445e97)

  57. cowardpig McCain said he’d repeal obamacare – he lied like a piggy pig pig!

    and now he stands before the whole whirl as a pee pee coward and a liar

    poor pee pee coward

    your legacy is nasty dirty

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  58. I remember the October surprise, the Kerry committee and the Christic collaboration in the 80s, which ran alongside the official Walsh witchhunt*, the latter made it series from cagey and lacy to that obscure Richard grieco jump street spinoff, as well as debuted Steven Segal’s career, that in itself should have been a hanging offense.

    *interesting some of the players, laufman bromwich and winner date back to that era.

    narciso (d1f714)

  59. 41… that was gratuitous, uncalled for and I apologize for it.

    Colonel Haiku (f125a7)

  60. I guess I understand him more than you guys because I’m an Eastern big-city vulgar pig myself.

    Hoagie, you my be in Philly but you’re swingin’ like a Yankee.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  61. ^may

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  62. So we discover a Mccain, was deep in the thick of the proscription of tea party groups, and he now heads the office of special counsel.

    narciso (d1f714)

  63. but he hid like a little girl

    mccain never has the courage of his convictions

    cowards never do 🙁

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  64. john mccain’s a liar and a fraud

    and you really have to wonder if he’s really sick or if he’s just hiding like a coward to avoid any questions/consequences about how he shopped the phony urinating hooker dossier for so the fbi could use it to extort a resignation from President Trump

    Where did I get the idea that it will be necessary to moderate you for a week beginning the day McCain dies?

    I can’t fathom where I got such a silly notion.

    Patterico (115b1f)

  65. Yankee hats are always on sale in Philly, and the Phillies gear only when they contend.

    urbanleftbehind (cdf37a)

  66. Staffer, Henry kerner, of course it was denied back then, and learners deepsixed server would have put an end to it.

    narciso (d1f714)

  67. Bow the tosca performance from a while back, who was the star again?

    Which one? The most recent one I saw was Sonya Yoncheva in a Met Live performance. I just Googled it and PBS is re-running the Met live performances throughout the summer. I recommend them.

    Why do you ask?

    Patterico (115b1f)

  68. They keep a small inventory of the latter, hoping against hope.

    Then there’s Wallace and Schmidt whose new wokemess is as phone as a three dollar bill.

    narciso (d1f714)

  69. i’m just saying it’s good to be skepticism with this slippery sleazer

    he lies a LOT he lies all the time

    this is documented.

    and he’s tricksy-sneaksy!

    in his head he’s some kind of larger-than-life puppetmaster

    if he really had the terminal cancer why wouldn’t he resign?

    it makes no sense!

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  70. Yes, that’s the one. I was watching parts of it, again I don’t have many sources of comparison

    narciso (d1f714)

  71. No Wallace can’t get hired by any reputable campaign, so she’s trapped in the mime box that is MSNBC,,Schmidt they don’t even give him a show, has like the rancor, thrown some raw meat on primary days.

    narciso (d1f714)

  72. As to the subject at hand, there’s an issue if scale, Canada has 1/10th our population, Germany has 1/5,,how well could they hold out in a trade war, its a foolish notion.

    narciso (d1f714)

  73. like Beldar, I am concerned about Hoagie’s irritability, fault-finding and anger. It could be Trump but it could also be related to his medical issues.

    DRJ (15874d)

  74. This is why ambassador grenell is negotiating an agreement with the major German automakers, which Canada its trickier with the Chinese pass through in steel.

    narciso (d1f714)

  75. meanwhile back in Donald Trump’s america

    Local Plastic Bag Restrictions Get Trashed By Texas Supreme Court

    the article is slanted propaganda but the gist is real

    there’s a new attentiveness to freedom in some places

    and it’s exciting

    here’s the legal nub

    Texas Attorney General Ken Paxton, a Republican, applauded the Supreme Court’s decision.

    “I hope that Laredo, Austin, and any other jurisdictions that have enacted illegal bag bans will take note and voluntarily bring their ordinances into compliance with state law,” he said.

    “Should they decline to do so, I expect the ruling will be used to invalidate any other illegal bag bans statewide,” Paxton added.

    Even for “home rule” jurisdictions in Texas, like Laredo, the state Constitution says that city policies cannot conflict with state law.

    And a law on the state’s books, the Texas Solid Waste Disposal Act, says local governments cannot “prohibit or restrict, for solid waste management purposes, the sale or use of a container or package in a manner not authorized by state law.”

    and this is interesting too… how the most pitiful and wretched were the most victimized by these draconian policy:

    Peterson says that the bag restrictions were hurting business, particularly for establishments that have customers who come to the city from Mexico and carry away their purchases in plastic bags.

    “When they didn’t have bags, they wouldn’t buy anything,” he said.

    and let’s just note this here

    For instance, that they weren’t regulating the bags for a “solid waste management purpose,” because the restrictions occurred before single-use plastic bags became trash.

    people re-use these bags all the time they use them for picking up dog poopies on walks and for trash can liners and for taking lunch to work

    i have a mannequin hook i hang a t-shirt bag from cause I don’t like to have gallons of trash in my kitchen (i bought a huge box of t-shirt bags when LA banned plastic bags so I was only inconvenienced at the store not at home)

    https://www.amazon.com/T-Shirt-Carryout-Bags-Thank-Gracias/dp/B0025W9ALG

    but after i got here Chicago banned bags too so I make regular trips to a walmart with my friend F now what’s in a suburb up a lil north from here where they still give you bags

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  76. mannequin hooks are awesome cause they’re hard for creepy crawlies to navigate btw

    i link it cause finding this thing was super hard (the exact keywords to find what i was looking for were very elusive so you need to know to throw the word mannequin in)

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  77. @51. Meh. NYers and most of the tri-state area residents-like Hoagie- have come to know the Trump shtick by heart over the past 35 years or so; outside of the scripted ‘The Apprentice’ and his Stern/Imus radio rants, it’s still fairly fresh entertainment to many across the land. He’s essentially more or less what we once called a ‘Rockefeller Republican.’ Biggest tears come from those horrified Reagan-Goldwater-Buckley-few who realize their spin fall on deaf ears and they don’t run the show anymore. When the Congress flips to the Dems, he’ll work w/them because for Trump, all that matters is scoring wins.

    It’s Trump’s party now; conservative whine; bitter dregs.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  78. Re: the question in the title of the post

    While it would be tempting, and gratifying, to answer “yes,” I think doing so would only redound to Trump’s political advantage.

    “See, I’m taking a hit for the whole country!” he would lie.

    If it were possible to truly ruin the man financially, destroying the foundations of his ill-gotten and corrupt empire and leaving him destitute, it might be worthwhile. But in reality, any effects would be minuscule and symbolic, playing right into the persecution complex of the man and his cult, and he would certainly exploit the symbolism.

    The smarter move, as I think some countries have tried to do, is to target the industries and regions of the country that are inclined to support him. The US does the same in sanctions against Russia, Iran, and (in the past) Iraq, among others.

    Dave (445e97)

  79. there’s nothing invalid about your opinion even *if* an illness changes your whirl view

    it’s a mixed-up muddled-up shook-up whirl you know

    except for lola

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  80. “The smarter move, as I think some countries have tried to do, is to target the industries and regions of the country that are inclined to support him. The US does the same in sanctions against Russia, Iran, and (in the past) Iraq, among others.”

    Works for ConDave.

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  81. Meh. In a previous period, the British Empire coughed and sputtered, too. We’re in an era of national adjustment; the ‘American Century’ was born 12/7/41, peaked 7/20/69 and died 9/11/01.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  82. So who on the Texas Supreme Court is a Trump nominee? That ruling could have happened either way and it’s not a certainty a Clinton administration or court would have fought it.

    Do they have selfcheck at that Wal mart? I would double bag every load, even if it’s paper towels if I were you.

    urbanleftbehind (cdf37a)

  83. Godwin, today, on whether to update Godwin’s Law:

    [T]he question of evil, understood historically, is bigger than party politics. [Godwin’s Law] is about remembering history well enough to draw parallels — sometimes with Hitler or with Nazis, sure — that are deeply considered. That matter. Sometimes those comparisons are going to be appropriate, and on those occasions GL should function less as a conversation ender and more as a conversation starter.

    It’s an interesting essay, and includes a reference in passing to the same tweet that Patterico quoted here the other day (regarding “the white nationalists who plagued Charlottesville”).

    I was in a study group with Mike to help us survive the toughest required course in the Plan II Honors curriculum at UT-Austin in the fall of 1975, Dr. Irwin Spear’s Biology 302. It was graded on a strict curve, and since Mike & I both ended up getting an A in the class, two would-be pre-meds therefore didn’t — for which Mike & I, as aspiring non-doctors, felt only very slightly guilty.

    Beldar (fa637a)

  84. He’s essentially more or less what we once called a ‘Rockefeller Republican.’

    Baloney.

    Susan Collins is a Rockefeller Republican.

    Trump is a Democrat, of the Huey Long/Charles Coughlin variety.

    Dave (445e97)

  85. So we discover a Mccain, was deep in the thick of the proscription of tea party groups, and he now heads the office of special counsel.

    . . . .

    Staffer, Henry kerner, of course it was denied back then, and learners deepsixed server would have put an end to it.

    I have known Henry personally for 20 years. Any suggestion that he was trying to deep-six tea party groups is laughable. I just reviewed the notes and that is not what they say — look at the timing, for crying out loud. Henry went to Washington as part of the tea party revolution. I think I’ll do a post about this to help squash it because it’s a really dumb allegation.

    Patterico (115b1f)

  86. and died 9/11/01

    w couldn’t have handled this more badly

    from rushing pell-mell into creating the monstrously incompetent TSA to slaughtering innocent people by the dumpster-full (including our own soldiers) to eviscerating civil rights in america to spending an ungodly number of borrowed chineser dollars to no strategic purpose

    he is a truly vile person

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  87. 73.like Beldar, I am concerned about Hoagie’s irritability, fault-finding and anger. It could be Trump but it could also be related to his medical issues.

    Nah, DRJ. His agitation is good; it’s a sign of fight- and life.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  88. That ruling could have happened either way and it’s not a certainty a Clinton administration or court would have fought it.

    it’s a zeitgeist thing my brother

    just go with it

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  89. Here’s the LA Dog Trainer’s collection of eyewitness accounts:

    http://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-charlottesville-witnesses-20170815-story.html

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  90. @ urban (#82): Members of the Texas Supreme Court are elected to four-year terms in partisan statewide elections. Vacancies are filled by the Texas governor. No one on that court was appointed by Trump.

    Trump did, however, nominate one of the Texas Supreme Court’s most widely known judges, Don Willett, to the federal court, specifically the U.S. Court of Appeals for the Fifth Circuit, and he completed that switch on January 2, 2018. I think Justice Hecht’s footnote 5 in the plastic bag decision, City of Laredo v. Laredo Merchants Association, is an homage to Willett, because it’s the kind of footnote Willett was famous for writing, and Justice Hecht isn’t usually quite so droll.

    Beldar (fa637a)

  91. The high point for America in history was … walking on the moon?

    DRJ (15874d)

  92. @91. For the ‘American Century’ as noted, yes.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  93. I think I’ll do a post about this to help squash it because it’s a really dumb allegation.

    As if the actual truth of the allegation matters to those parroting it…

    Dave (445e97)

  94. Rockefeller Republicans and conservatives have battled for decades past and to come.

    DRJ (15874d)

  95. For the ‘American Century’ as noted, yes.

    you’re not wrong and recognizing this is kinda the only saving grace of nasty-assed fascist rainman jeffy bezos

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  96. @84. He said it himself: Donald Trump Interview 1988 Republican convention–

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Usb0iE5WiZI

    Enjoy your baloney sandwich.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  97. I was merely saying that ruling happened independent of the ascension of Trump in response to Happyfeet saying it was an example of Trumps America, heck even Willett’s appointment to the federal court was likely the recommendation of subordinates or surrogates.

    urbanleftbehind (cdf37a)

  98. That’s perhaps one of the silliest thing disco has said, and that’s a long list.

    As a technical achievement the moon landings were big, but we settled into a holding pAttern since then, a to industrial capacity we held the commanding heights for a time, now deinduatrialization is another matter to consider.

    narciso (d1f714)

  99. Justice Hecht’s introduction is worth reading for more than just footnote 5, by the way (other footnotes omitted):

    The roving, roiling debate over local control of public affairs has not, with increased age, lost any of its vigor. From public education to immigration policy to fracking to shopping bags, the sides are always deeply divided. “Judges have no dog in this fight. Our duty is to apply the rules fairly and equally to both sides.”5

    The Texas Constitution states that city ordinances cannot conflict with state law. The Texas Solid Waste Disposal Act (“the Act”) provides that “[a] local government … may not adopt an ordinance … to … prohibit or restrict, for solid waste management purposes, the sale or use of a container or package in a manner not authorized by state law.” The sharply contested issue here is whether the Act preempts, and thus invalidates, a local antilitter ordinance prohibiting merchants from providing “single use” plastic and paper bags to customers for point-of-sale purchases. The trial court upheld the ordinance, but a divided court of appeals reversed, holding that it is preempted by the Act.

    Both sides of the debate and the many amici curiae who have weighed in assert public-policy arguments raising economic, environmental, and uniformity concerns. But those arguments are not ours to resolve. “The wisdom or expediency of the law is the Legislature’s prerogative, not ours.” We must take statutes as they are written, and the one before us is written quite clearly. Its limitation on local control encompasses the ordinance. We affirm the judgment of the court of appeals.

    Footnote 5 reads:

    United States v. Howard, 793 F.3d 1113, 1115 (9th Cir. 2015) (Kozinski, J., concurring). For what it’s worth, “[a] person commits an offense if the person intentionally or knowingly … causes a dog to fight with another dog” or “attends as a spectator an exhibition of dog fighting.” TEX. PENAL CODE § 42.10(a)(1), (6). The latter is a Class A misdemeanor, the former a state jail felony. Id. § 42.10(e).

    Other than this footnote reference to Ninth Circuit Judge Alex Kozinski, this is very typical of the current Texas Supreme Court, which is to say: It’s judicially conservative, as opposed to politically conservative, but judicial conservatism seems to the left as if it’s political since it diminishes the role of the judicial branch of state government in making public policy and law.

    Beldar (fa637a)

  100. @98. Except it’s not.

    Do go back and read your own musings narcissy for samples of silly putty.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  101. Mad Men Republicans works for me. I only binged the show this year and the whole ad agency was lockstep Nixon for the 1960; Peggy the Brooklyn Catholic was closet Kennedy and the only one at that.

    urbanleftbehind (cdf37a)

  102. “If you’ve followed Never Trump commentary for the past year, and sadly I really had no choice, you know that the unifying force there is not principles or political philosophy or the faux-religious outrage, it is simply a visceral dislike of Trump. I don’t have a problem with visceral dislikes of people, but don’t try to pi$$ on my leg and tell me it’s raining. Don’t tell me you oppose Trump on principle when it is obvious that is simply not the case.

    George Will joins people like Steve Schmidt and Tom Nichols in taking the position that they’d rather see progressives win than to be personally offended by Trump’s success.

    https://www.redstate.com/streiff/2018/06/23/george-will-endorses-nancy-pelosi-speaker-house-anyone-care/

    harkin (e5c973)

  103. During a segment on Fox & Friends today, Trump’s former deputy campaign manager who now works for Fox told a black panelist “You’re out of your cotton-picking mind.”

    The banner at the bottom of the screen at the time read:

    “PUNDITS CALL TRUMP SUPPORTERS RACIST, NAZIS.”

    We report, you decide.

    Dave (445e97)

  104. The problem is, that many of the NAME businesses aren’t owned by Trump, but by local investors, who only license his name. If the businesses are shuttered, the injury to Trump is minimal, but the injury to the investors in that country can be substantial, and a political negative for that country.

    askeptic (8d10f9)

  105. Why would Senator McCain, a self-styled conservative, one who took an oath to “preserve, protect, and defend the Constitution,” use the influence and authority of his position to “financially ruin” fellow conservatives?

    #theydidsomethingtohisbrain

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  106. “Do not try to tell me Trump respects the Rule of Law:

    We cannot allow all of these people to invade our Country. When somebody comes in, we must immediately, with no Judges or Court Cases, bring them back from where they came. Our system is a mockery to good immigration policy and Law and Order. Most children come without parents…— Donald J. Trump (@realDonaldTrump) June 24, 2018

    What is this but a demand that Trump be ceded the powers of a dictator to act above the law? How many devoted Trump supporters will pump their fists in the air and shout their approval, cursing the judges and the Congress and anyone else who gets in Trump’s way?”

    JUDGES WHO JUST *HAPPEN* TO RESIDE IN AMERICA SHOULD *NOT* BE DENIED THEIR BIRTHRIGHT OF INFINITE JURISDICTION OVER ALL THE PEOPLES OF THE WORLD! TRUMP AND THESE VILE NON-LAW PRACTICING PLEBS SHALL *NOT* REDUCE THE MEASURE OF OUR REACH WITH THEIR PETTY COMPLAINTS! GLOBAL LAWYER POWER NOW!

    If this is what seriously passes for the ‘rule of law’, count me and a great many people with guns and a willingness to use them out.

    Dysphoria Sam (312848)

  107. @98. Airbus wins sales race with Boeing for 5th straight year

    http://money.cnn.com/2018/01/15/investing/airbus-boeing-orders-deliveries/

    Now go play w/your thesaurus.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  108. Here’s the conclusion to Judge Willett’s first signed opinion as a judge of the Fifth Circuit, U.S. v. Maturino, which is absolutely characteristic of him (italics his):

    Victor Maturino requested 144 high-explosive grenades; he received 143 non-explosive grenades. This is a sentencing appeal, though, and what matters for sentencing is what Maturino actively sought, not what he actually bought. Summing up, the sentencing court properly counted the number of firearms involved in Maturino’s offense and did not miscalculate his sentence under the Guidelines. Maturino’s plan for live grenades fell short, but close counts in horseshoes and hand-grenade cases.

    Beldar (fa637a)

  109. As a technical achievement the moon landings were big

    post ww2 we needed a new hook tailor-made for the cold war on which to hang ideas about american exceptionalism and this worked far beyond any expectations

    it made the soviet union look puny and brutish

    lunk-headed vodka-soaked dog-killers

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  110. Thank you, Sam (#106), for so vividly proving my point.

    Beldar (fa637a)

  111. “I have known Henry personally for 20 years. Any suggestion that he was trying to deep-six tea party groups is laughable. I just reviewed the notes and that is not what they say — look at the timing, for crying out loud. Henry went to Washington as part of the tea party revolution. I think I’ll do a post about this to help squash it because it’s a really dumb allegation.”

    Better be a hell of a post, CTH has already loaded up the powder wagons and lit the fuses:

    https://theconservativetreehouse.com/2018/06/22/now-it-all-starts-making-sense-deep-state-fixer-henry-john-kerner-the-cover-up-expert/

    “If you wanted to control or cover-up a DC scandal where would you need to be? What position(s) would you need to control? A) the witnesses, and the investigators. In essence, deep inside the agencies or committees doing the investigation. That’s exactly the functionality where Henry John Kerner comes in.

    Yesterday it was revealed that Henry J Kerner (Henry Kerner), as a former McCain senior staff official, was part of a bipartisan DC team who constructed the IRS weaponization program to target the Tea Party. That’s bad enough. However, a little more digging, you’re not going to believe this: the same guy who was attached to the prior investigations, is now in charge of all DC “corruption” and “whistle-blowing” cases, including the current FBI and DOJ corruption.

    Henry Kerner is Special Counsel in charge of all “whistle-blowing” witnesses and cases of government corruption. Henry Kerner controls the events as the lead official, the Special Counsel in charge of the Office of Special Counsel; and he is in the position to manipulate/control any investigative outcome.

    Now a whole bunch of things begin to make sense. From his CV summary Henry Kerner would have been in position to influence: Fast-n-furious scandal (Issa), IRS scandal (Chaffetz), Benghazi (Chaffetz, Gowdy, McCain); and now in his position in charge of the entire Office of Special Counsel he would have influence and control over Spygate etc.”

    Much like Mueller, seems to be a record of capitulation and geezwefailedagain while keeping his job and position.

    Dysphoria Sam (312848)

  112. @101. Superb series. ‘Pegged’ the ad biz perfectly from those times and the flavor of the era in corporate NYC as well. Casting Robert “J. Pierpont Finch” Morse was a throwback stroke of genius, too.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  113. @84. He said it himself: Donald Trump Interview 1988 Republican convention–

    Wait, Donald Trump said it?!

    Oh, well then.

    That changes everything.

    If you can’t take everything Donald Trump says at face value, then who can you believe?

    Enjoy your baloney sandwich.

    More appetizing than what you’re trying to feed us…

    P.S. Right back at’cha (from 2004)

    Dave (445e97)

  114. @ askeptic, who wrote (#104):

    The problem is, that many of the NAME businesses aren’t owned by Trump, but by local investors, who only license his name. If the businesses are shuttered, the injury to Trump is minimal, but the injury to the investors in that country can be substantial, and a political negative for that country.

    You’re absolutely right about this: Only a fraction of the properties (hotels, golf courses, whatever) with Trump’s name on them are actually owned by him. Some he merely provides management services for; others he simply licenses the use of the “Trump” name to.

    But that actually makes Trump potentially more vulnerable to push-back by boycotts: Why pay to license a name that drives customers away?

    One of the funniest aspects of the multiple waves of bankruptcy that Trump’s casino business went through, before it ended up entirely in the hands of junk bond financier Carl Icahn, was Icahn’s decision to keep using the Trump name. He wanted to strip that name from the casinos, but they did a study which concluded that the name was so ubiquitous — literally on every bar of soap, every towel, everywhere in every room or hallway on every floor of the building, even the parking garage — that it would cost more to replace the name than the entire casino was worth. The empire’s crown jewel, the Trump Plaza, still stands, but it’s been closed since 2014.

    Beldar (fa637a)

  115. Thank you, Sam (#106), for so vividly proving my point.

    Beldar (fa637a) — 6/24/2018 @ 2:21 pm

    I’d like to thank him (#111) for vividly proving my point (@93) too!

    Dave (445e97)

  116. trey gowdy’s done a spectacular job of pissing away any reputation he might have enjoyed for integrity

    the default anymore what we should have for people what come to us from the “us attorney’s office” sewer is “do not trust” i think

    sorry Mr. shipwreck but it’s a blatantly corrupt milieu increasingly steeped in hyper-privilege and degeneracy

    not your fault

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  117. Trump respects the “Rule of Law” as far as he can bend it. And if it breaks– he makes like Frank Abagnale, so catch him if you can…

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=McQ8a-7Ml-0

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  118. I hope you don’t have anyone with lung disease in your family. If you do, I hope you read up on the symptoms to be concerned about and to avoid.

    DRJ (15874d)

  119. me and my friend M were reminiscing this past week about how one day we clambered about Trump Plaza just for funsies

    that was before i was in the habit of grabbing a pic 🙁

    and guess what i never got to do sixteen

    i don’t think people understand that it closed and it was kind of a loss for us

    but Tru and a few others closed recently too so i think part of this is it’s just a super-competitive market

    but still it kinda triggers my fomo that i never went and I know why i didn’t go

    it was cause i specifically wanted to sit outside which was seasonal but still affected by weather during the season and i let that wrinkle sorta complexicate things i think

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  120. @113. Most Eastern establishment, Rockefeller-Republicans-types lean toward what Reagan conservatives labeled ‘democratic’ social values and such, you know. It was the genesis of the party battle raging 50 years. Now it’s swopped ends. Might want to revisit the roots of it. He’s more or less a Rockefeller Republican whether you like it or not. Accept it. You’ll sleep better.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  121. “ARE Rule Of Law!” is just another excuse for GOPe types to whine about how they aren’t gonna get in line and support the President, their effective pushback against the Democrats running roughshod over it for the past couple of decades has been scant to nonexistent.

    The quickest way to return massive respect for the rule of law is to start using it the way the Democrats do, you really have to rape Justice in order to save her, as Abe Lincoln once said.

    Dysphoria Sam (312848)

  122. mom and dad both died of lung disease and my little brother already shows the early signs of what dad (and his dad) died of (ipf)

    still plenty of time for hoping though

    we can grow human lungs in japanese pigs you know

    true fact, mostly

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  123. Was going to the moon America’s most spectacular engineering accomplishment or was it an event that reinforced public confidence in American exceptionalism?

    DRJ (15874d)

  124. Sam, have you ever considered replacing “Dysphoria” with “Yosemite“? That way you could be all rackin’-frackin’ with your all-caps when dealing with us lily-livered bow-legged varmints.

    Beldar (fa637a)

  125. tommy robinson’s still rotting in jail in leggy meggy’s fascist britain

    and she’s not pregnant yet wtf is wrong with her

    you got one job toots

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  126. Much like Mueller, seems to be a record of capitulation and geezwefailedagain while keeping his job and position.

    I’m not out to convince people like you. My audience will be reasonable people. My audience is not fever swampers like you who say things like this: “The only people you have to blame for this state of affairs is democracy and the female race…” Instead, I’ll be talking to the adults, thanks.

    Patterico (115b1f)

  127. The quickest way to return massive respect for the rule of law is to start using it the way the Democrats do, you really have to rape Justice in order to save her, as Abe Lincoln once said.

    Dysphoria Sam (312848) — 6/24/2018 @ 2:43 pm

    Which <a href="The quickest way to return massive respect for the rule of law is to start using it the way the Democrats do, you really have to rape Justice in order to save her, as Abe Lincoln once said.

    Dysphoria Sam (312848) — 6/24/2018 @ 2:43 pm was that? Which Lincoln quote was that? This one?

    Study the Constitution. Let it be preached from the pulpit, proclaimed in legislatures, and enforced in courts of justice.

    Or this one?

    Familiarize yourselves with the chains of bondage and you prepare your own limbs to wear them. Accustomed to trample on the rights of others, you have lost the genius of your own independence and become the fit subjects of the first cunning tyrant who rises among you.

    Or maybe this one?

    Slavery is founded on the selfishness of man’s nature – opposition to it on his love of justice. These principles are in eternal antagonism; and when brought into collision so fiercely as slavery extension brings them, shocks and throes and convulsions must ceaselessly follow.

    DRJ (15874d)

  128. @123. Avoid getting into the specifics, just view it as ‘the peak of the arc’ for the U.S. from ’41 to ’01.

    China will eventually ‘go for the glory’ – as Krauthammer so wisely noted – if only as a symbol for those not alive in the 20th century, to hallmark the 21st century as theirs.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  129. Ha. I read it as Yosemite every time I see his name, Beldar.

    DRJ (15874d)

  130. Then I’m not the only one! 😀

    Beldar (fa637a)

  131. I read your comment as an acknowledgement of the American exceptionalism theory. MAGA!

    DRJ (15874d)

  132. The last comment was for DCSCA, the committed Rockefeller Republican. The one before that was for Beldar, my conservative compatriot.

    DRJ (15874d)

  133. CNN Breaking- Feds to interview Stormy Daniels on Monday. That should be ‘entertaining.’

    Mueller might be a little too anal for these media-savvy times; public support is evaporating. Best he start shaking his own azz into moving and get a report done.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  134. Nobody asked me…I believe peak USA was first eradicating without apology, the evils of Germanic and Japanese tyranny, only to generously create a miraculous recovery for those places.

    Ed from SFV (6d42fa)

  135. Hoagie posted this:

    When the time comes I will deal with them as humanely as I did with their comrades in Vietnam.

    Hoagie was in Vietnam the way I was on Nambu with Anakin Skywalker. The closest he got was a Bob Lee Swagger novel.

    nk (dbc370)

  136. @132.The last comment was for DCSCA, the committed Rockefeller Republican

    Blame father. Mother was the committed ‘Goldwater Girl;’– and for 54 years, we’ve never let her forget the error of her ways. 😉

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  137. omg this video is everything

    can you can wear white without looking like a vestal virgin – i think you can sweetie pickles

    mazel tov! (drinks out of wine bottle)

    lovin the original vintage izod there josh

    wtf is that woman doing with the kale

    and yes what ABOUT rachel rosenberg? dish, please

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  138. *Naboo*

    nk (dbc370)

  139. “Sam, have you ever considered replacing “Dysphoria” with “Yosemite“? That way you could be all rackin’-frackin’ with your all-caps when dealing with us lily-livered bow-legged varmints.”

    Have you ever considered making a good post

    “I’m not out to convince people like you. My audience will be reasonable people. My audience is not fever swampers like you who say things like this: “The only people you have to blame for this state of affairs is democracy and the female race…” Instead, I’ll be talking to the adults, thanks.”

    So essentially “I’m not out to ‘effectively’ convince anyone, I’m preaching to the converted who already share my interests and tell the little white lies that keeps our society functional” yeah no duh we already knew that.

    “Which Lincoln quote was that?”

    Ok, so his EXACT WORDING was ‘the best way to get a bad law repealed is to enforce it strictly’, but the spirit and penumbra of the thing is essentially the same, remember that for all his good qualities Abe was also a lawyer and had that ol’ lawyer lawlessness, though if you want to start picking apart his public statements on the black and white races you’re more than welcome to.

    Dysphoria Sam (312848)

  140. So essentially “I’m not out to ‘effectively’ convince anyone, I’m preaching to the converted who already share my interests and tell the little white lies that keeps our society functional” yeah no duh we already knew that.

    Tell us more about how women ruined our society, Yosemite Sam.

    My post about Henry is up, by the way. I suggest comments on this made-up scandal go there.

    Patterico (115b1f)

  141. Rare footage of Dysphoria Sam taking shots at his opponents:

    Patterico (115b1f)

  142. The late-night monologue jokes pretty much write themselves, don’t they?

    I’ve been waiting a long time for this – I hope you’re ready to conduct a … thorough …investigation…

    Dave (59a371)

  143. Here’s a typical example of why it’s Trump’s party now and the usual establishment finds itself dealt out or just put on the bottom of the deck:

    Long time presidential advisor David Gergen just spent 10 minutes on CNN trying to pitch to viewers that the way to stop the flood of illegal immigrants across the southern border is not to hold them in detention centers, split families or build walls but to fix the problem ‘at the source’ by helping- aka $$$– Nicuaragura and Columbia and assorted Latin American lands to me it bette for them to live and stay there.

    Trumpsters aren’t buying that antiquated line of crap anymore, especially with crumbling bridges, congested airports and potholes here at home.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  144. @143. ^to make it better for them to live and stay there.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  145. Except the problem isn’t coming from Colombia or Nicaragua, the proximate nexus are the cartels, which received a fair amount of ammunition re castaway and fast and furious. Now duque is a reasonable leader unlike Santos who has been blind to the lefts encroachments.

    narciso (d1f714)

  146. @145. Which is partly why Gergen’s at CNN and not in the West Wing.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  147. Its not just any American owned business being attacked. Its an indirect attack on the sitting President of the United States in an attempt to punish American policy.
    This should not end well

    steveg (a9dcab)

  148. Sam, have you ever considered replacing “Dysphoria” with “Yosemite“? That way you could be all rackin’-frackin’ with your all-caps when dealing with us lily-livered bow-legged varmints.

    Womp womp

    Patterico (115b1f)

  149. summer bummer womp womp when old mister sun is burnin down

    don’t get too fried now!

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  150. ” Instead, I’ll be talking to the adults, thanks.

    For those at home keeping score at home, those would be the ones giggling about the Yosemite Sam references.

    No, really…

    the Bas (ca2d1a)

  151. Oops, strike one of those “at home’s”

    the Bas (ca2d1a)

  152. yosemite is fraught with peril

    The park averages 12-15 total traumatic deaths per year; most are water related.

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  153. ikes

    and then there’s the whole vernal falls thing to talk about

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  154. @123. ‘…an event that reinforced public confidence in American exceptionalism?’

    Meh. More like ‘our Germans were ‘excptionally’ better than their Germans.’

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  155. 151, you need the 2nd clarifier for home if one is accessing a scoring spreadsheet on a cloud as opposed to a laptop or desktop hard drive.

    urbanleftbehind (cdf37a)

  156. It’s the ALL CAPS plus “Sam” that made me think of Yosemite Sam, but I’m not laughing at him. I know that isn’t his name and his comments aren’t funny.

    DRJ (46c88f)

  157. not funneh

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  158. OT: As of today, women are allowed to drive in Saudi Arabia.

    I’m sure Yosemite Dysphoria Sam disapproves…

    Dave (445e97)

  159. So we rehabilitated certain parties like abs (Deutsche bank) thyssen,Krupp,bmw and their Japanese counterparts, certain political figures like kiesinger Josef strauss kodama kishi we armed them through arrangements like Lockheed and general dynamics. There was a push toward the common market and NATO.

    narciso (d1f714)

  160. I bet their driver’s licenses are not much help when used for purposes of identification.

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  161. Heh coronello, as I noted yeaterday, the men get the white abayas and the women get stock with the sown black bag.

    Its reasonable for hoagie to feel the way he does, how many bonafides does he need to give.

    narciso (d1f714)

  162. probably make for handy body tags tho

    saudi arabia lol

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  163. Hoagie was in Vietnam the way I was on Nambu with Anakin Skywalker. The closest he got was a Bob Lee Swagger novel.
    nk (dbc370) — 6/24/2018 @ 3:07 pm


    Mr. nk, I did three tours in Vietnam from 1969-1971 with the 82nd Airborne. I was engaged in 13 battles and 22 firefights , was wounded twice receiving two Purple Hearts (once shot and once hit with mortar shrapnel which I still carry in my right kidney) and was awarded the Bronze Star with “V” for Valor in action around Dong Hoi. Oh, and I killed more commies than you have fingers and toes, confirmed. So keep your smart assed comments about my service to yourself you ungrateful slob.

    Rev.Hoagie (c5d6cf)

  164. “The Times approach to Trump supporters was laughably offensive. It reported, “In interviews across the country over the last few days, dozens of Trump voters, as well as pollsters and strategists, described something like a bonding experience with the president that happens each time Republicans have to answer a now-familiar question: ‘How can you possibly still support this man?’

    Buried in Paragraph 26 was the answer, from John Westling, 70, of Princeton, Minnesota, who said, “Let’s see. Economy booming, check. Unemployment down, check. Border security being addressed, check. Possible end to the Korean War that started when I was 3 years old, 68 years ago, check.”

    Actions are more important than Words.”

    https://donsurber.blogspot.com/2018/06/why-resistance-is-futile.html

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  165. That’s one way Asian Americans can keep their slots at selective enrollment public schools: http://www.bostonglobe.com/metro/2018/06/22/bps-superintendent-tommy-chang-resign/K7Abb5k2CYXrGiJvxiqIqM/story.html

    urbanleftbehind (847a06)

  166. Hang in there, Hoagie. The backbenchers got the splinters, you got the medals.

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  167. And I don’t have to believe a word of it, Hoagie. You have given me a great many reasons to doubt your credibility.

    nk (dbc370)

  168. @163- yeah, yeah, but I bet you’ve never chased an ambulance in your life, loser.

    the Bas (ca2d1a)

  169. Hoagie was in Vietnam the way I was on Naboo with Anakin Skywalker.

    And there is photographic evidence to back it up!

    Dave (445e97)

  170. 168… there is where the true heroism is to be found… braving crosstown traffic chasing an ambulance! That and keeping teh poker face when presenting the “enhanced” billable hours to the clients.

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  171. Yes Haiku, few things funnier than Yosemite Sam and lawyers lecturing on morality and credibility.

    the Bas (ca2d1a)

  172. Yes Haiku, few things funnier than Yosemite Sam and lawyers lecturing on morality and credibility.

    And all of them Trumpkins.

    nk (dbc370)

  173. there’s no such thing as trumpkins anymore

    just americans

    humbled yet hopeful

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  174. Rev.Hoagie (c5d6cf) — 6/24/2018 @ 4:57 pm

    Thank you for your service, Rev.

    random viking (6a54c2)

  175. “During the mid-1980s dairy farmers decided there was too much cheap milk at the supermarket. So the government bought and slaughtered 1.6 million cows. How come the government never does anything like this with lawyers?”

    —- P.J. O’Rourke

    Now that’s just mean.

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  176. What did they do with the meat, or (pardon my ignorance) is dairy cattle unsuitable for traditional beef preparation?

    urbanleftbehind (847a06)

  177. Mr. nk, I did three tours in Vietnam from 1969-1971 with the 82nd Airborne.

    Hoagie, this site, which is a respected military affairs resource, says:

    With the Tet Offensive in Vietnam during February 1968, additional US troops were needed in a hurry. On 14 February 1968, the 3rd Brigade deployed to Vietnam in Operation All American. The Brigade arrived at Chu Lai and moved north to Phu Bai near Hue. In March 1968, the 3rd Brigade troopers fought alongside the 101st Airborne in Operation Carentan I. The Brigade conducted combat operations for 22 months, fighting along Highway 1, the Song Bo River, Hue, and Saigon. In September 1969, the Brigade conducted its last combat operation in Vietnam, Operation Yorktown Victor, in the so-called iron triangle. The 3rd Brigade returned to Fort Bragg and the 82nd Airborne on 12 December 1969.

    This agrees with several other sites I found, including several created by 82nd AB veterans. The 3rd Brigade of the 82nd Airborne was deployed in response to the Tet Offensive, in January 1968, and withdrawn in December 1969, after 22 months of service.

    In particular, all of the sources I’ve found (a dozen or so) indicate that the 82nd did not serve in Vietnam during 1970 or 1971. During most of the Vietnam war, the 82nd was held in reserve to deal with any other crises that might arise around the world. According to the same site:

    During the 1970s, the 82nd Airborne was alerted several times and Division units deployed to the Republic of Korea, Turkey and Greece for exercises in potential future battlegrounds. An antitank task force armed with the new TOW missile deployed to Vietnam in the spring of 1972.

    You also wrote:

    and was awarded the Bronze Star with “V” for Valor in action around Dong Hoi.

    Dong Hoi was in North Vietnam, roughly 50 miles north of the border with the South, as this map shows, and there is no record of the 82nd Airborne (or any other major US combat unit) ever engaging in ground combat that far into North Vietnam – at Dong Hoi or anywhere else. (There was a naval battle off the coast of Dong Hoi, but it seems doubtful that the 82nd Airborne would have been involved, and in any case the naval battle happened in 1972).

    Dave (445e97)

  178. @177. Dave; in John Wayne’s Vietnam, the sun sets in the East.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  179. Just a reminder that Mexico’s next president has flat out stated that they are invading America. That’s an act of war.

    We live in interesting times.

    NJRob (16b31f)

  180. 134… agreed… it could’ve gone so differently for both countries, given what they had done to much of the world. They were indeed fortunate that the US was blessed with men of vision, who looked at the long-term goals and valued them more than retribution. In Germany’s case, at least in what ended up being West Germany.

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  181. Certainly we did learn a lesson from the cold peace of Versailles, one might say it was not similarly applied half a century later.

    Narciso (0c09b6)

  182. Just a reminder that Mexico’s next president has flat out stated that they are invading America. That’s an act of war.

    Source?

    Googling “Mexico President Invade USA” only turns up Trump’s threats to invade Mexico.

    Dave (445e97)

  183. Similarly with Japan and it’s former colony in south Korea, whereas the Soviet satrapy to the north, followed the rules described in 1984

    Narciso (0c09b6)

  184. Dave,

    Pretty naive to think that a google search will reveal where and when the 82nd Airborne fought its battles.

    Leviticus (5ada74)

  185. That’s the faculty lounge mentality he employs…

    http://dailycaller.com/2018/06/22/mexican-candidate-immigration-speech/

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  186. Odd how that wasnt a major thread topic coronello.

    Narciso (0c09b6)

  187. Pretty naive to think that a google search will reveal where and when the 82nd Airborne fought its battles.

    Well, you know, the internet is controlled by Commies.

    My ROTC instructor in 1971 was a Master Sergeant in the 82nd Airborne. What he bragged about was having done a six-minute mile in combat boots (to encourage to see if we could do it in gym shoes).

    nk (dbc370)

  188. Dong Hoi was a human highway, used to supply manpower and supplies to the NVA and VC.

    I have an old high school friend who is two years my junior – a classmate of my wife and my surviving sister – who we reconnected with back when we both were on Facebook… around 2008 or so, I think. He has been teaching school over in Vietnam for the last 10 years, some city along the coast. He says loves the place and the people. He now sees it as his home. He returns every now and then for a visit – one such visit was a few months ago for the funeral of his sister. He was at a dinner party that my sister also attended and she said he seems very happy. To each his own, I guess.

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  189. There’s other things about Hoagie’s stories. Rank of captain and a sniper with 87 confirmed kills which only showed up in the last year or so, for a couple.

    nk (dbc370)

  190. And I don’t have to believe a word of it, Hoagie. You have given me a great many reasons to doubt your credibility
    I think Hoagie is perhaps guilty of simply not understanding how he comes across.

    Do you remember a few months ago how he was telling us hiw he discovered money left forgotten in the furniture by his patents? Roughly $3000 dating from the Depression.
    In 2018 dollars that equals more that $50,000.

    Now I think the wealthiest among us, including Hoagie, would be inclined to remember where we put $50,000. And let our children know where it was later on.
    But Hoagie’s folks were wealthy enough to do just that in the middle of the Depression.

    To put thus in perspective, at about the time Hoagie’s parents were hiding that $3000, my grandfather walked to work across the city of Boston to save the money for other things. The subway back then cost a dime, so my grandfather saved $1 a week. That’s how important even saving a dollar was back then.

    kishnevi (db47fb)

  191. Parents, not patents.

    kishnevi (db47fb)

  192. Thank you for serving, Hoagie.

    DRJ (15874d)

  193. So a dollar is worth 0.055 of what it was then, this is what sharing what ones troubles amounts to.

    Narciso (0c09b6)

  194. kishnevi @ 190.
    Do you remember a few months ago how he was telling us hiw he discovered money left forgotten in the furniture by his patents? Roughly $3000 dating from the Depression.
    In 2018 dollars that equals more that $50,000.

    That’s why I mentioned the Bob Lee Swagger novels by Stephen Hunter. (Bob Lee Swagger is an old Vietnam sniper.) A very similar story, down to the jargon used in the valuation by the appraiser, is in the latest one, G-Man. Difference being that Stephen Hunter was content with only one $1,000 bill, and it was found in a buried metal box, not a picture frame.

    nk (dbc370)

  195. @184. Even more naive to suggest that with the greatest of pride, United States Army’s 82nd Airborne would not make their storied battle history available- particularly to the people who pay for it– and forever honor their service to the nation when the country called:

    “In response the Tet Offensive of 1968, in the Republic of Vietnam, General Westmoreland, MACV commander, requested a brigade of the 82d Airborne Division be sent immediately to support U.S. operations. Within 24 hours, the Division organized men and equipment of the 3d Brigade, known as the Golden Brigade, and had them in route to Chu Lai. The 3d Brigade performed combat duties in the Hue-Phu Bai area of the I Corps sector. The brigade moved south to defend Saigon, fighting battles in the Delta, the Iron Triangle, and along the Cambodian border. After serving 22 months in Vietnam, 3d Brigade troopers returned to Fort Bragg in December 1969. Sergeant First Class Felix M. Conde-Falcon received the Medal of Honor for destroying five enemy bunkers at an enemy battalion command outpost.” – source: http://www.82ndairbornedivisionmuseum.com

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  196. Frank Hamer is in the book, too, DRJ. I won’t give any other spoilers.

    nk (dbc370)

  197. I think Leviticus was being sarcastic, DCSCA.

    nk (dbc370)

  198. So a dollar is worth 0.055 of what it was then, this is what sharing what ones troubles amounts to.

    A brand new 1934 Ford coupe, loaded with all the options, was $694 MSRP.

    nk (dbc370)

  199. nk (dbc370) — 6/24/2018 @ 7:05 pm
    Wasn’t aware of Swagger novels. It just struck me that Hoagie likes to present himself as pure middle class, when in fact he belongs to the 1% financially, and always has been. It would behoove him to remember that.

    And also to remember that if it wasn’t for socialized medicine and the research itbhelped finance, he would probably be dead by now.

    kishnevi (db47fb)

  200. I read I’m Frank Hamer many years ago. I think my Uncle or cousin or someone knew him.

    DRJ (15874d)

  201. nk, my parents paid $11,000 for the house in which I lived as a little kid. The mortgage was for $10000. My father’s uncle was the rich family member (and my father’s boss) and gave them the down payment as a gift. That was 1960. They sold it in 1969 for $15000. (That’s when we moved to Florida.)

    Houses like mine in that area now go for about $400,000 the last time I looked.

    kishnevi (db47fb)

  202. I took enough fresh lip and insults from people like you when I got back to Philly. Now you’re going to insult me and my service with “Google” 45 years later. Give me a break.

    Over the last several months I have been getting more and more disgusted with the snarky anti American attitude I detect with some of you guys at this blog. I even tried a month off just to see if I may be over reacting. I wasn’t. You have gone so far left just disagreeing isn’t enough now you don the usual leftist cloak of personal attacks and insults. Well, you can keep it. I’ve been commenting here foe a couple years now but suddenly I’m being attacked. I don’t need it. I’m not trying to impress you but I won’t have my honor, my service and my country demeaned and slandered by people who haven’t served and who only insult those who have. I’m done here.

    Rev.Hoagie (c5d6cf)

  203. Dong Hoi was a human highway, used to supply manpower and supplies to the NVA and VC.

    That may be, but there is no hint of the 82nd Airborne (or any other large US Army unit) fighting 50 miles inside North Vietnam. It would have been an enormously big deal.

    Small Special Forces teams (Green Berets) sometimes operated outside SVN with native forces, but that is a much different mission than the 82nd AB would have been tasked with.

    Dave (445e97)

  204. Sorry to see you go Rev. I’m sure the stalwart “conservatives” around here aren’t. I mean, you aren’t even grateful for the “socialized medicine” that saved your life. Sheesh!

    the Bas (ca2d1a)

  205. I’m not trying to impress you but I won’t have my honor, my service and my country demeaned and slandered by people who haven’t served and who only insult those who have. I’m done here.

    You volunteered the detailed information. Did you really think nobody would look it up?

    Frankly, until today I have never doubted your claims. I expected them to check out, or least be plausible, and was surprised that they appear not to.

    If you have been dishonest about your service, then you deserve to be called out for it (and I think any real veteran would agree).

    Dave (445e97)

  206. Reverend I’m worried about your health maybe you just have a fungus that makes you surly

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  207. Sorry, but recognizing the fact that Trump’s presidency is bad for the US and bad for conservatism is the opposite of being antiAmerican.

    Do you realize that under Trump no one takes our claim to being leader of the Free World seriously?

    kishnevi (db47fb)

  208. kishnevi @201, even using the official government figures for inflation/devaluation of the dollar (which in my opinion are understated vis a vis real purchasing power) a nickel during the Depression could buy more than a dollar does today. Pretty much like you said.

    And a nickel is $0.05, narciso. One-twentieth of a dollar.

    nk (dbc370)

  209. As seems to have become your habit, though, rather than addressing (and clarifying, where appropriate) the substance of what was posted, you chose to get self-righteous and attack the people involved.

    Dave (445e97)

  210. Right, yet he has achieved more despite the Possom Congress and the feral press, on a whole host of fronts, not everything of course there seems to an effort to isolate any malfeasance of Obama from accountability.

    Narciso (0c09b6)

  211. the Bas (ca2d1a) — 6/24/2018 @ 7:34 pm
    It would be perhaps better for Hoagie to shut up.
    If someone would need evidence that Trump supporters are racists, they would only need to collect his comments here to prove their case.

    Which is a shame, because the rest of the Trump supporters here (you, Random Viking, ropelight, Tellurian being the most prominent) don’t even come close to that.

    kishnevi (db47fb)

  212. 1700% inflation give or take, t hats what Keynesianism has wrought.

    Narciso (0c09b6)

  213. Hoagie, you have people who frequent this blog who support you, your ideals, your ability to cut thru the bullschiff and get to the heart of the matter, who believe you and who thank you for your sacrifice. I understand it wears on one, but don’t let their negativity get you down.

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  214. kish, these days not being ashamed to be white is the definition of “racist”. If you supported any Republican in the last ten years, you are racist.

    This is how you got Trump. Perhaps you should shut up, all your comments are just ensuring Trump for two terms.

    the Bas (ca2d1a)

  215. Narciso, making the world angry with us is not a good thing. Screwing up any attempt to pass conservative legislation on health care, immigration, is not a good thing.
    I was going to use stronger language but I don’t want to offend The Filter.

    kishnevi (db47fb)

  216. @197. Hope so.

    Hoagie rates a lot of slack IMO. Times and dates can get muddled w/age and particularly in his case, give the stresses he’s enduring. Believe he was there, zapped his share and carries the scars from then into now. The specifics seem less important today.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  217. but Hoagie may have an illness what interferes with Proper Commenting Behavior

    we’re just concerned is all

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  218. “Narciso, making the world angry with us is not a good thing. Screwing up any attempt to pass conservative legislation on health care, immigration, is not a good thing.”

    This seems to totally absolve Congress of any responsibility in this. This is not a good thing.

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  219. Haiku, other than the fact that Hoagie is a loyal member of your tribe, do you have any reason to give credence to his claims in the face of multiple apparent contradictions with the historical record?

    Dave (445e97)

  220. Bas, in real conservatism, being white black or any other race besides the human race is of no consequence.

    There were people to whom being white mattered. Except they called it being Aryan, and killed a bunch of my relatives for the crime of being Jews.

    Try to be a real conservative. You’l find it a good thing.

    kishnevi (db47fb)

  221. Like Simpson mazzoli, wait that will never happen again. Oh the flatulent wailing of corner flake and co, we’ll leave out McCain out of this, because he has proved a pitiful sort.

    When did they cheer America last, not in the 80s, they were chasing the fever dream of the nuclear dream, in that Clinton era about nothing?

    Narciso (0c09b6)

  222. I’m done here.

    Sounds a lot like what Uncle Sam said when he jumped on to the last chopper out of Saigon, eh Hoagie.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  223. This seems to totally absolve Congress of any responsibility in this. This is not a good thing.
    Valid point. But feckless Congress does absolve feckless POTUS of blame.

    kishnevi (db47fb)

  224. Does NOT absolve.

    kishnevi (db47fb)

  225. I’m quite certain that I never in my life have insulted anyone for wearing the uniform of this country. I’m quite certain that if I did that, my father’s ghost would strangle me in my sleep, and I’d deserve it.

    I am also quite certain that there is no breed of cowardly blowhard worse than those who claim to have served, especially in combat, especially with medal-winning valor, if they didn’t.

    I never served, but from blogging about the Swiftboat veterans in 2004, I learned that there actually is a ton of information about what military units served where and when and in what action. Dave and others are certainly right in what they’ve posted about the 82nd Airborne, which is indeed a justly famous division.

    So if you were part of it Hoagie, how did you serve in Vietnam from 1969-1971, when it didn’t? That’s a really straight-forward question. If you have a good explanation, then you’d have a right to be indignant, and I’ll be the first to endorse it and apologize for my own skepticism. But now, I’m really skeptical, because you’ve offered no explanation at all.

    So what’s the explanation?

    Beldar (fa637a)

  226. oh good lord

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  227. I have no reason to doubt Hoagie, and I value what he has posted – given a few lapses in judgement – far more than anything you’ve posted. If my memory serves me, there may have been well over a hundred thousand of the Bronze medals given out during the war in Vietnam and I don’t think their record keeping was all that it could have been. There may have been a helluva a lot that went on there that we don’t know about. Could be a good thing.

    And you can put your tribe comment where the sun gains no purchase.

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  228. @217. Oh no, Mr. Feet. Think of him more fondly as Trooper Duffy of F-Troop – the elderly cavalryman who insisted he was the sole survivor of the Alamo and regularly recounted his exploits there with Crockett and Bowie.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  229. I am also quite certain that there is no breed of cowardly blowhard worse than those who claim to have served, especially in combat, especially with medal-winning valor, if they didn’t.

    One other point is that there are a lot more people who make up false service records than you might think. And real veterans are (understandably) extremely intolerant of such people.

    There is a cottage industry of fed-up veterans who expose these frauds. Just google “stolen valor” and you will find page after page of videos where they call people out on the street and dress them down.

    The point being that it is far from impossible that someone who gives a contradictory or otherwise implausible story about their military service is a fraud. Real vets can accurately recount even the most trivial details of their service because they lived it, and are (justly) proud of it.

    Dave (445e97)

  230. But there was a,lively debate in the Obama error

    http://theepochtimes.com/large-scale-protests-in-iran-condemn-regime-and-

    Topple Mubarak and bin Ali, but stand like a,basenghi at the other instancr.

    Narciso (0c09b6)

  231. @ nk: Has Hoagie claimed here to be a captain with 87 confirmed kills as a sniper? I found this comment in which he wrote:

    I did basic at Ft. Benning and was 29th Infantry. Later I was attached with several other sniper teams to the 82nd Airborn.

    “Airborn”? Okay, typos happen, even in the names of famous American Army units. But if there was anyone in the 82nd Airborne with that kind of record of kills as a sniper, I’d expect him to be on this list; but the only member of the 82nd Infantry Division on it, with 28 kills, is Medal of Honor winner Sgt. Alvin York, from before the days it was, er, born as an airborne division.

    And there’s this comment, in which Hoagie wrote:

    When a local would see my M24 SWS (sniper weapon system) Remington 700 instead of the standard M14 or M16 they stepped aside. It sure finished my look, for sure.

    Except that Wikipedia (I’m up against the link limit for comments, sorry) says that system was designed in 1988.

    Still looking through other Hoagie comments.

    Beldar (fa637a)

  232. “So there I was with Davy Crockett. Shoulder to shoulder, back to back. Mexicans all around us. So I turns to Davy, and I says … I says: ‘Davy, what we needs is a wall on the border with Mexico. A big wall. A beautiful wall. A tremendous wall. And we should make Mexico pay for it.'”

    nk (dbc370)

  233. I have no reason to doubt Hoagie

    So you think the historical record is wrong, and the 82nd AB served in Vietnam during 1970-71, and fought engagements 50 miles inside North Vietnam?

    I value what he has posted – given a few lapses in judgement – far more than anything you’ve posted.

    Ah. If you “value” what someone says, you accept their claims uncritically, without a shred of evidence, and if you don’t “value” what someone says, you will dismiss documented facts they point out.

    I applaud the honesty of this part of your response.

    Dave (445e97)

  234. nk: Has Hoagie claimed here to be a captain with 87 confirmed kills as a sniper?

    Yes.

    nk (dbc370)

  235. Shameful behavior on here by people attacking a former serviceman because he doesn’t kowtow to their politics.

    Truly men of the left.

    NJRob (16b31f)

  236. I seem to remember Hoagie saying he killed 36 men.
    And

    kishnevi (db47fb)

  237. @231. Interesting, Beldar; came across this on the 29ths history page- the 29th Infantry Division (Light) was deactivated in 1968, but on 6 June 1984, the United States Army announced its reactivation as the 29th Infantry Division (Light) of the National Guard.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  238. And there’s this comment, in which Hoagie wrote:
    When a local would see my M24 SWS (sniper weapon system) Remington 700 instead of the standard M14 or M16 they stepped aside. It sure finished my look, for sure.
    Except that Wikipedia (I’m up against the link limit for comments, sorry) says that system was designed in 1988.

    The Army protocol for snipers during the Vietnam era was still a semi-automatic rifle. An M1 Garand or an M14, specially built and scoped. The “one shot– one kill” protocol, with a bolt action rifle based on the Remington 700, was the Marines.

    nk (dbc370)

  239. No the left has an objective, destroy all objective standards, cast law enforcement and military as a,criminal enterprise, undermine,faith flag and family, demoralize or,depose our,allies give support to our foes.

    Narciso (0c09b6)

  240. Source?

    Googling “Mexico President Invade USA” only turns up Trump’s threats to invade Mexico.

    Dave (445e97) — 6/24/2018 @ 6:38 pm

    Good thing others on here know how to use Google since you don’t.

    NJRob (16b31f)

  241. @232. ROFLMAO

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  242. I did basic at Ft. Benning and was 29th Infantry. Later I was attached with several other sniper teams to the 82nd Airborn.

    Hmm, that seems a bit … problematic … too. From Wikipedia’s history of the 29th Infantry Division:

    In 1968, in the middle of the Vietnam War, the Army inactivated several National Guard and Reserve divisions as part of a realignment of resources. The 29th Infantry Division was one of the divisions inactivated. During that time, the division’s subordinate units were reassigned to other National Guard divisions. 1st Brigade was inactivated, while 2nd Brigade was redesignated as the 116th Infantry Brigade, and the 3rd Brigade was redesignated as 3rd Brigade, 28th Infantry Division.

    So if Hoagie entered the service in 1969, there was no 29th Infantry Division. The division wasn’t reactivated until 1984 (40 years to the day after it landed on Omaha Beach…).

    Dave (445e97)

  243. No the left has an objective, destroy all objective standards, cast law enforcement and military as a,criminal enterprise, undermine,faith flag and family, demoralize or,depose our,allies give support to our foes.

    That is a near-perfect description of Trump’s agenda for the past 18 months.

    Dave (445e97)

  244. ‘Today, elements of the 29th Infantry Regiment are located at Fort Benning, GA. The 1,300 officers, noncommissioned officers, soldiers, and civilians assigned to 1st and 2nd Battalion provide instruction in courses that train privates to colonels on and in a wide variety of subjects and equipment; subject matter expertise for the development and evaluation of new doctrine and equipment; support Reserve Component units in their periodic training; provide troops, vehicles, and equipment to support Infantry School resident instruction; and have proponency for a variety of field manuals.’ – source- wiki29thhist. And yes, among the training programs, they do have a ‘sniper school.’

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  245. We never evaluated your walter mittyesque claims disco duck.

    Narciso (0c09b6)

  246. Shameful behavior on here by people attacking a former serviceman because he doesn’t kowtow to their politics.
    Well, people are questioning his claimed record as a serviceman.

    My stepfather had PTSD. And a very belated Silver Star.
    He was in the Chosin Reservoir. Or the Korean Conflict. He got mentioned in an Act of Congress–Philip Yolinsly
    https://books.google.com/books?id=O4faWmnhSPAC&pg=PA1757&lpg=PA1757&dq=philip+yolinsky&source=bl&ots=JY7oYzGVKc&sig=NtYbnBm7ti7y3qGQi2YPYAPXsBc&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiz0Zvs9O3bAhXMrFMKHQe-Bu4Q6AEwA3oECAYQAQ#v=onepage&q=philip%20yolinsky&f=false
    He’d be royally angry at someone claiming service record they were not entitled.

    kishnevi (db47fb)

  247. Pfft, Narcissy, you may glue weed with mustard seed then wing a bird by feathering it props then chocolate mousse on NBC.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  248. Maybe:

    A link to a video of a lecture given by LTC Mark A. Viney, Director, U.S. Army Heritage & Education Center, Carlisle, PA. in January 2011.

    http://www.carlisle.army.mil/AHEC/media … .cfm?id=32

    Operation Mule Shoe, a heretofore unknown Joint Chiefs of Staff operation plan for a limited invasion, or “lodgement”, into southern North Vietnam to reduce enemy sanctuary areas above the demilitarized zone.

    A four division attack – amphibious, ground, airborne, air assault – utilizing the 1st Cavalry Division, the 82nd Airborne Division, the 5th Marine Division and a second MARDIV, possibly the 3rd Marine Division. No ARVN or other allied forces would be involved.

    Of particular note is that the entire 82nd Airborne Division would be flown halfway around the world from North Carolina to North Vietnam. Secondly, a full Marine division would perform an amphibious landing, something that hadn’t been done since Korea.

    The operations would have taken place to the south of Dong Hoi, North Vietnam.

    I found this lecture very interesting.

    The link no longer works and the operation may not have occurred, but then again it might have.

    DRJ (15874d)

  249. If only the same level of scrutiny and skepticism was directed at the Steele dossier by some of the same commenters here.

    random viking (6a54c2)

  250. back in the nam we had a saying

    “if we can’t get decent sushi tonight we’ll try again next weekend and you know what it’s gonna be ok”

    and we all pulled through – the whole entire war team i was on (low draft number)

    that’s the power of positive thinking right there

    and plus we figured out how to make delicious low-carb cheesecake just using locally-sourced jungle-nuts

    but when we came home they called us baby-killers

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  251. “Try to be a real conservative. You’l find it a good thing.

    I used to identify as a conservative, no more. I figured out the only thing being conserved was their own sense of self-righteousness.

    I now identify politically as an American patriot. Unashamed of my heritage and fighting for my posterity. Globalists of any color, creed, or religion are my enemy. Trump is the leader I voted for to fight for America, and he’s done a admirable job against incredible resistance. Nevertrumpers are useful idiots for the opposition. Full of themselves and ignorant of their own role in helping America’s enemies.

    the Bas (ca2d1a)

  252. Oops, made hash of the italics.

    Not army hash though, I ain’t stealing no valor.

    the Bas (ca2d1a)

  253. The link no longer works and the operation may not have occurred, but then again it might have.

    It certainly did not occur, as described.

    A 4-division invasion of North Vietnam would have made it into the history of the war…

    A working link to a video of the lecture is here.

    Dave (445e97)

  254. If only the same level of scrutiny and skepticism was directed at the Steele dossier by some of the same commenters here.

    I’ve read it cover to cover at least three times.

    If Mr. Steele ever posts here at patterico.com, I assure you I’ll have some questions for him!

    Dave (445e97)

  255. Still looking for more comments from Hoagie about his service record.

    nk, I did find a comment from you in 2009 about the same 82nd Airborne master sergeant you referenced in #187 above, in which you also included the six-minute-mile-in-boots observation. If you made that up, you’ve been utterly consistent over the last nine years. 😀

    Beldar (fa637a)

  256. you weren’t there man

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  257. Here we go, from Hoagie last year:

    Tom Hayden was a coward & a traitor, Colonel. I had 79 confirmed kills in Vietnam and I guarantee every one was a better man ad greater patriot to his cause than Tom Hayden will ever be regardless how the leftist democrats rewrite history. And I too lost several Vietnamese friends some in the war and some when we couldn’t get them released to come back to America with us. That’s part of my resentment for these illegals who the left think “deserve” a path to citizenship. They “deserve” nothing but the boot.

    Beldar (fa637a)

  258. @256. We’re glad he got Kurtz, Mr. Feet!

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  259. those are just the confirmed ones

    hello we don’t do confirms all the time cause some of them is secret

    and it cuts down on paperwork

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  260. Also from Hoagie, Hoagie in 2016:

    From where you’re sitting you just accused a person who did two tours in Nam, engaged in 33 firefights, had 79 confirmed kills, was wounded twice, was awarded a Bronze Star with a “V” and two purple hearts of being an enemy sympathizer. Not only are you Godless you are classless. And you’re lucky it’s not my blog because I’d ban you for life for calling another blogger a traitor, especially a decorated/wounded veteran.

    And Hoagie from 2017:

    Don’t blame me happyfeet, I had 79 confirmed kills in Vietnam and I’m positive the total is double that. I did my part and sent a lot of commies to meet Stalin.

    BRW David, my war name in Nam was “Muffin”. That’s because after a particularly contentious firefight when I was walking back to a village a guy looked at me and said: “Man, you ain’t ‘fraid of nuffin’”. So they started calling me “Nuffin” and that degenerated into Muffin. So don’t worry your little head about me being afraid of terrorists. I’m not.

    I am surprised I missed all these at the time.

    Beldar (fa637a)

  261. @259. Like at Kent State, eh, Mr. Feet.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  262. She seems to have dated three different staffers , and buzzfeed was none the wiser.

    narciso (d1f714)

  263. I’ll trust your diligence more than my memory, Beldar. 79 instead of 87. But I’m sure that he claimed the rank of captain, recently, after the Roy Moore (who was a captain in Vietnam) posts, which did attract my attention because up until then he had been an enlisted man who had volunteered in 1968.

    nk (dbc370)

  264. Hoagie, today: ‘I did three tours in Vietnam from 1969-1971 with the 82nd Airborne. I was engaged in 13 battles and 22 firefights…’

    Hoagie, 2016: ‘From where you’re sitting you just accused a person who did two tours in Nam, engaged in 33 firefights..’.

    Tour de force doesn’t quite tally, does it, Trooper Duffy.

    As nk would say: “So there I was with Davy Crockett. Shoulder to shoulder, back to back. Mexicans all around us. So I turns to Davy, and I says … I says: ‘Davy, what we needs is a wall on the border with Mexico. A big wall. A beautiful wall. A tremendous wall. And we should make Mexico pay for it.’”.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  265. And two tours in 2016 went up to three on this thread. Sad, really.

    nk (dbc370)

  266. This is making my head hurt. I’ve read too many Hoagie comments in a row now.

    Maybe there’s a perfectly rational explanation. Maybe he’s right, because all these details are seared — seared! — in his memory. If there is, I hope he’ll share it with us.

    Beldar (fa637a)

  267. I can’t run a good search on “captain” because of “Captains Quarter’s” in the sidebar.

    Beldar (fa637a)

  268. The amount of chutzpah it takes for the International Man of Parody to question somebody else’s personal history is breath-taking. The cognitive dissonance it should produce could power the western US for the next century. DSCASPCA might be one of the craziest and most prolific liars we have encountered here.

    JD (ec3581)

  269. @263. Sources and methods; knew sales reps who’d sleep w/clients to make or exceed monthly quotas and cash commission checks. One was particularly adept at showing off her thong before going out on a sales call.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  270. @269. Liar.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  271. Hey jd, here in bearded Spock universe it makes sense,

    narciso (d1f714)

  272. Hey, did the IG report come out yet?

    random viking (6a54c2)

  273. No, but the stormy show has been put on rain delay

    narciso (d1f714)

  274. @267. Perhaps a typo but it’s hard to believe he’d forget an entire year tour. And the 82nd dates don’t quite match up Could be the meds or just age. A noted earlier, IMO he gets cut a lot of slack given his condition.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  275. Belfast / if you want some entertaining reading, search all of the absurd claims made by DSASCPA.

    JD (ec3581)

  276. @276. Do-do; start w/ol’home plate; Google 1 Prince’s Gate, Knightsbridge SW7 and peruse first floor flat called home; then will tell you about New Year Eve, 1970 watching a drunk level that crosswalk on Knightsbridge Road.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  277. Any more ironman competitions.

    narciso (d1f714)

  278. 274. No, but the stormy show has been put on rain delay

    More golden showers?!

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  279. 79 instead of 87.

    …in Buckram mail.

    Dave (59a371)

  280. One more nagging detail. Hoagie in 2014:

    Uh, Skeptical Voter, redc1c4 is on our team. You confused him with mr.gop who is a troll here and also goes by at least four other names. Anyway, I was in Nam 68′-701/2′ the U.S. Army 82nd Airborne. My lottery number was 186 but it didn’t matter, I volunteered. Every guy in my family serves and I was no exception. Got shot in 69′ and hit with mortar shrapnel in 70′. Then I got sent home. In my experience only civilian cowards label others “chicken hawks”. Seems to hold true here also. Anyway, welcome Skeptical Voter.

    But:

    During the Vietnam War, young men gathered in college dorms and friends’ homes to listen to live TV and radio broadcasts of the U.S. Selective Service System drawing lottery numbers to determine who would and would not be drafted. The 2010 issue of Vietnam magazine revisits those days in the article, “Live from Washington, It’s Lottery Night 1969!!”

    366 blue plastic capsules contained the birthdays that would be chosen in the first Vietnam draft lottery drawing on December 1, 1969. The first birth date drawn that night, assigned the lowest number, “001,” was September 14.

    Beldar (fa637a)

  281. nk, guided by your recollection about the Roy Moore connection, I found this from Kish in December 2017:

    BTW, Captain H. (I use your army rank for a reason here)….something came up yesterday with a customer of mine. He was a Vietnam vet was initially loath to buy something because it was made in Vietnam, given that “they were shooting my brothers” (his exact phrase).

    Which set me to wonder how widespread that attitude was among Vietnam vets, and I am hoping you can shed some light on the topic (or at least give your own view of the matter).

    Thanks.

    kishnevi (bb03e6) — 12/8/2017 @ 11:50 am

    Which makes me think Kish was referring to something, maybe something then-recent, that Hoagie had said about being a captain. But I can’t find that comment yet.

    Beldar (fa637a)

  282. Also, in that first lottery, #186 would have meant you were IN (or at least, that you had to report for “administrative processing”).

    I wasn’t aware until I just read the Selective Service site, but prior to that lottery in December 1969, there were no “draft numbers” at all. Local draft boards took the oldest eligible men first, but there was no other system to it.

    Has Hoagie ever mentioned when his birthday is? I almost vaguely remember that he did in the last year, but I could be wrong.

    That could be cross-checked against his claimed lottery number, for any of the years lotteries were held. Maybe eventually something that he told us will check out…

    Fun fact: within a matter of days, statisticians determined that the numbers chosen were not randomly distributed, and that men born in later months systematically drew lower numbers:

    For instance, the average number for men horn in Janu ary is 201, while the average number for December is 122. These averages are obtained by adding all the lottery numbers of the dates in the month and dividing by the number of days in the month.

    The average numbers for other months are: February, 203; March, 226; April, 204; May, 208; June, 196; July, 180; August, 173; September, 157; October, 182, and November, 144.

    If the system were random, each month could he expected to have an average around 183 or 184. Each of the first six months has an average number above this. Each of the last six months has an average number below it.

    This is almost certainly due to the little balls containing the numbers not being sufficiently mixed after being added to the bowl.

    Dave (445e97)


  283. and plus we figured out how to make delicious low-carb cheesecake just using locally-sourced jungle-nuts

    but when we came home they called us baby-killers

    happyfeet (28a91b) — 6/24/2018 @ 9:08 pm

    I don’t know from Run through the Jungle but you look like you could use a walk in A Forest

    Dude claims to be Robert Smith. You be the judge.

    Pinandpuller (e36906)

  284. Hoagie, January 7, 2016:

    Glad to see you Steve57. Happy belated New Year. Today is my 65th birthday but now it’s overshadowed by Hebdo.

    Lottery #186:

    1970: January 21 (my mother’s birthday)
    1971: February 3
    1972: November 6

    January 7 lottery numbers:

    1970: #306
    1971: #159
    1972: #292

    Nothing remotely close to a match here either, I’m afraid.

    Dave (445e97)

  285. Hey mr happyfeet, here’s a good cover The Passenger

    Have another one too Dear Prudence OMG ROBERT SMITH!!!

    Pinandpuller (e36906)

  286. I have no reason to doubt Hoagie, and I value what he has posted – given a few lapses in judgement – far more than anything you’ve posted. If my memory serves me, there may have been well over a hundred thousand of the Bronze medals given out during the war in Vietnam and I don’t think their record keeping was all that it could have been. There may have been a helluva a lot that went on there that we don’t know about. Could be a good thing.

    And you can put your tribe comment where the sun gains no purchase.

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0) — 6/24/2018 @ 8:15 pm

    John F’ing Kerry threw some over the White House fence and they weren’t even his.

    Pinandpuller (e36906)

  287. DCSCA

    I need you to debunk this claim, based on your particular set of skills:

    Queens of British Pop: Siouxsie Sioux

    Pinandpuller (e36906)

  288. The first lottery Beldar mentioned, on December 1, 1969, applied to men born between January 1, 1944 and December 31, 1950.

    Hoagie said he was born on January 7, 1951, so he would have been subject to the second lottery, which was held on July 1, 1970 and applied to men born in 1951 (only).

    Hoagie claimed that he had already served 2.5 tours of duty by that time and that he was sent home after being wounded in mid-1970…

    Dave (445e97)

  289. Do you realize that under Trump no one takes our claim to being leader of the Free World seriously?

    kishnevi (db47fb) — 6/24/2018 @ 7:36 pm

    I think that falls under the axiom you can’t give yourself a nickname.

    Pinandpuller (e36906)

  290. 79 kills would put Hoagie in fifth place on this list of the Deadliest Snipers of the Vietnam War. They all appear to be enlisted men, not officers. I gather that’s the general rule among snipers.

    Beldar (fa637a)

  291. @288. That be a Lulu, PP.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  292. They all appear to be enlisted men, not officers. I gather that’s the general rule among snipers.

    I don’t think anybody makes CPT or MAJ in the Army by the age of 19 (i.e. by the time Hoagie claims to have been shipped home). It’s basically impossible. And for good reason.

    According to this service academies site, unsourced, but pretty plausible-looking, some of the record-holders for youngest commissioned officers include:

    David A. Christian was a 2/LT at age 19 (Vietnam)

    Dave Hackworth enlisted at 15 and won a battlefield promotion to Captain at the age of 20. (Korea)

    Dan Inouye also received a battlefield commission to Captain at the age of 20. (WWII)

    George HW Bush was a LTJG at 19, youngest pilot in WWII.

    So, not impossible, but like the claimed 79 sniper kills, it would put him in the history book.

    If Hoagie really made that claim, it seems extremely suspect. But in fairness I don’t think there’s any hard evidence yet that he actually did.

    Dave (445e97)

  293. When do we start doing teh forensics on the only guy in an all girl British band?

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  294. Austin powers, man of mystery, yeah why be suspicious.

    narciso (d1f714)

  295. You know, most of us are just pseudonyms, or might as well be pseudonyms, and our reputations — such as they may be, rest on the things we say and how we say them. Which leaves me puzzled on why the forensic investigation of Hoagie has suddenly appeared here. What does this have to do with anything?

    Appalled (96665e)

  296. Pusillanimous Principled Peeps Propagating Perverted Prosecution of Peeved Peer

    Colonel Haiku (59ae41)

  297. aka they got a fevah and teh only cure is more faculty lounge cowbell.

    Colonel Haiku (59ae41)

  298. Well, this thread certainly took an interesting turn. A thorough fisking.

    Leviticus (5ada74)

  299. What do ya know, there are good tweets every now and then… https://static.pjmedia.com/instapundit/wp-content/uploads/2018/06/Screen-Shot-2018-06-25-at-8.32.01-AM-600×143.png

    Colonel Haiku (59ae41)

  300. It’s not like lefty bezerkers have attacked persons on this forum, oh wait.

    Narciso (369281)

  301. 295… heh, narciso… I’m suspicious why ASPCA keeps returning to teh story of that inebriated lout resting his wrinkled hand on his mother’s bottom while dancing with her. What’s up with that?

    Colonel Haiku (59ae41)

  302. Is it really stolen valor if the person is a pseudonym? I would say Hoagie’s #11 is as clear a statement of the Flight #93 mindset as I have seen and that has value. As does Beldar’s response on where that can lead someone. I’m not sure what the internet sleuthing adds, other than ad hominem taken to a higher plane.

    Appalled (96665e)

  303. Of all the things I’ve learned since the Rev. Hoagie inquisition started, is that people who may seem like natural allies or co-belligerents are anything but.

    urbanleftbehind (cdf37a)

  304. Appalled,

    I agree that what we say in our comments matters, not the messenger. But it also undermines a commenter’s credibility if he inflates his experience/background to seem more accomplished or admirable.

    Our (claimed) backgrounds matter, too. Knowing Patterico is a prosecutor lends credence to his opinions on criminal trials, right? And if someone claiming to be a doctor comments on medical matters, we notice it more, too. Thus, who or how we present ourselves as matters.

    DRJ (15874d)

  305. But I think Hoagie served and if he’s said anything inaccurate, it is likely explained by time or illness.

    DRJ (15874d)

  306. Two minute hate over, well t hats good to know, and you wonder why red state had issues.

    Narciso (369281)

  307. I’m not sure what the internet sleuthing adds, other than ad hominem taken to a higher plane.

    Hoagie often used his war record to buttress his credibility. He also claimed, among other things, to have traveled to Alabama (at age 14) to march for civil rights with Martin Luther King, to have raised a black child who survived a failed abortion, to have been told outright that he was denied admission to colleges and bank loans due to racial quotas, to have run 17 restaurants while working as a financial consultant, to be an ordained minister, to run a sort of community center for immigrants, to have a grandson who hates him for being white and “left school to join Black Lives Matter”, to have relatives who were brutally murdered in South Africa, and to be awaiting a life-or-death lung transplant.

    All of those things may indeed be true. Or not. Given that he chose to share all that, and frequently referred to it in various forms of argumentum ad verecundiam, it would be interesting to know.

    It’s troubling that not a single detail he provided about his military record appears to gibe with incontrovertible historical sources, and some – fighting 50 miles inside North Vietnam, or getting a draft number in the 1971 lottery when he supposedly enlisted in 1968 or 1969 (he goes back and forth on the year) – are almost certainly false.

    Dave (445e97)

  308. I just got tired of all his bullsh!t.

    nk (dbc370)

  309. 304… that ship sailed long ago, ulb.

    Colonel Haiku (59ae41)

  310. Fabulist or truth-teller, it’s not a good look to insult people repeatedly then complain about being insulted.

    Simon Jester (99147b)

  311. Hoagie has repeatedly stated that he’s well aware of Donald Trump’s many flaws, but he’s made the clear choice to maintain a strong pushback against those who continue to see things so differently that they have essentially joined “the Resistance”. It’s a willful choice both he and others have made to counter the anti-Trump stance they have chosen.

    Colonel Haiku (59ae41)

  312. “They” being some folks here.

    Colonel Haiku (59ae41)

  313. Colonel, he also attacks people who disagree with him as “commies” and the like.

    I wish him well, but he went off the deep end with anger. And anger, well, begets anger.

    Calling DRJ a lefty?

    Simon Jester (99147b)

  314. I’m not comfortable with this dissection of a commenter’s claims and I’m asking that it stop. I think it’s too far gone to delete all the comments — I wish I had seen this early on — but please stop it now.

    Patterico (115b1f)

  315. I just got tired of all his bullsh!t.

    I was frankly aghast when I read your comment @135.

    Now, having seen first-hand what a merciless bast@rd you are, I am more determined than ever to stay (or get?) on your good side…

    🙂

    Dave (445e97)

  316. I’m not comfortable with this dissection of a commenter’s claims and I’m asking that it stop.

    My sincere apologies to you.

    Dave (445e97)

  317. Dave (445e97) — 6/25/2018 @ 7:10 am

    When did you start posting here again? What was your previous nom de plume?

    NJRob (b00189)

  318. I’m not saying that what has been revealed here is inaccurate or that it doesn’t give me pause — but like DRJ, I am willing to chalk up some of the statements that have been questioned to time or illness. I appreciate Hoagie’s service, and I’d rather not see one of my commenters become the subject of a long research trail. I worry about the chilling effect that has on others, regardless of point of view. Hence my request.

    Patterico (115b1f)

  319. 315… that was a lapse in judgement, perhaps written in anger, Simon. I’m a crotchety old bastard and I don’t have to deal with anything close to what Hoagie’s dealing with.

    Colonel Haiku (59ae41)

  320. I liked RH and enjoyed his comments. However much of his story, parts he volunteered, simply are not checking out. Like not even close. Now I concede that there could be, could be, a logical explanation, but way too much of this doesn’t jibe. As much as I disagree in most other regards with nk and others who have jumped on this, I don’t see where any of them have dug into RH’s background beyond what he voluntarily posted here. This smells way too much like stolen valor and unless RH returns to explain himself or someone here who knows him in meat space can provide more info, I think stolen valor is a very valid concern. Understand your blog, your rules but this is the first I’ve gotten to reading this. Very sad if what appears to be the case is so. As someone who on a few occasions has worked with/helped vets and as one who looks forward to doing more so in that regard in the future, stolen valor is very important to me.

    Skorcher (5b282a)

  321. Good call Mr. Pat. This carp was basically no different than doxing someone you disagree with. Way beneath the dignity of this place.

    the Bas (ca2d1a)

  322. It’s nice to see so many people explain and defend the importance of transparency. I don’t know if it is crucial when it comes to anonymous commenters, but the principle is important.

    DRJ (15874d)

  323. And I want to make clear that, apart from his angry posts, I like Hoagie. And I wish him well.

    Simon Jester (99147b)

  324. Right I can see the sincerity,

    Narciso (4e7045)

  325. In fact, demands for Hoagie to come on and explain himself is a form of doxing; reveal yourself or be declared a liar.

    There are tons of reasonable explanations for the claims, for example his kills may not all be from sniping. Maybe his rank was achieved later in the guard. Heck, maybe he even exaggerated some details (not that any real vet would do that), and actually lied about his birth date. I know I would never give my actual birth date on an open forum, even under a pseudonym.

    Point is, this whole inquisition is pretty gross unless you actually know who he is and that he’s a complete fraud using stolen valor for personal gain. Which he isn’t. He’s an anonymous commenter on a blog talking politics. As is, calls for him to prove who he really is are way out of line IMO.

    the Bas (ca2d1a)

  326. When did you start posting here again? What was your previous nom de plume?

    You forgot to say the magic word!

    Dave (445e97)

  327. the Bas,

    I know you’re enthralled about this new Trumptastic world we live in, where you can say anything you want and act outraged when people take note of your inconsistencies and contradictions, but for many of us – myself included – the idea that “words mean things” is still an important one. Having your own words quoted back to you, with a chance to explain them, is a crucial component of meaningful discourse. Your attempt to muddy the waters of meaningful discourse is transparent and crass.

    Leviticus (efada1)

  328. Gee Leviticus, Patterico said he’s uncomfortable with it. Why didn’t you insult him for trying to shut down meaningful discourse?

    the Bas (ca2d1a)

  329. In fact, demands for Hoagie to come on and explain himself is a form of doxing; reveal yourself or be declared a liar.

    Nothing at all like doxxing.

    More like: explain the factual inconsistencies in information you volunteered, or have that information considered unfactual.

    As is, calls for him to prove who he really is are way out of line IMO.

    Nobody “called on him to prove who he really is”. He was (in effect) asked to back up the things he was saying, which happens here all the time.

    Dave (445e97)

  330. He even implied he would have deleted the inquiry if he had seen it sooner.

    He must be enthralled with acting outraged.

    the Bas (ca2d1a)

  331. Threatening murder is over the line. If nk’s “Rev.” Hoagie quote in 135 is accurate, that’s not acceptable in my book.
    Can’t we have commentators who at least don’t threaten to murder each other around here? ‘That too much to ask?

    Tillman (d34303)

  332. nk is cortect.

    When the time comes I will deal with them as humanely as I did with their comrades in Vietnam.

    Rev.Hoagie (c5d6cf) — 6/23/2018 @ 5:46 pm

    Tillman (d34303)

  333. Dave, does it occur to you that details proving his innocence to you (how American) might reveal more details about his identity than he’s comfortable with. For all we know, he may be legally restrained from giving certain details of his service.

    Hoagies arguments stand on their own merits, your attempts at character assassination won’t change that.

    the Bas (ca2d1a)

  334. *correct (I swear, some days…)

    Tillman (d34303)

  335. #320

    I’d rather not see one of my commenters become the subject of a long research trail. I worry about the chilling effect that has on others, regardless of point of view.

    Isn’t this all that needs to be said here? It’s a reasonable fear from the guy who enforces the rules. Because, what gets done unto one always gets done unto someone else (and twice as hard).

    Appalled (96665e)

  336. 335, that could be true in re inability to reveal. I know next to nothing about the details of one cousin-in-law who served in the first Gulf War and has remained a DOD contractor forward. I often think that he is in some sort of counter-intelligence (he actually literally ran into the service to escape gang retribution and could be considered swarthy in the Haiku sense, so lots of possibilties). If the that theory is true, Hoagie might have another new stressor, with the glasnost between NK and the US, might not be as much of a market for his unique services.

    urbanleftbehind (5eecdb)

  337. I come back to this thread a day later and all I can say is: Boy, that escalated quickly.

    Paul Montagu (0b5bee)

  338. @295. =Haiku!= Gesundheit!

    Do get it right, Pyrex Boy; that’s Academy Award nominated inebriated lout to you and it was an unzipped dress, no more, no less. You’d have caught him on TCM only yesterday.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  339. Dave, does it occur to you that details proving his innocence to you (how American) might reveal more details about his identity than he’s comfortable with. For all we know, he may be legally restrained from giving certain details of his service.

    Such dishonest language “proving his innocence” – LOL.

    He voluntarily made several factual claims, it was pointed out politely (by me at least) that his claims conflicted with known information, and he went apesh!t.

    I suppose he could have not volunteered the information in the comment section of a blog, if he didn’t want it commented on. I also note that he didn’t express any privacy concerns in his farewell. Probably because his anonymity and privacy were never in any danger.

    Hoagies arguments stand on their own merits, your attempts at character assassination won’t change that.

    nk’s original post was somewhat confrontational (albeit mild in tone by Hoagie standards), but I have never, ever – to this moment – been disrespectful to Hoagie, in spite of the unending stream of lies, calumnies and vituperation he directed at me (among many others).

    I pointed out that the information he volunteered conflicted with reliable archival sources. I did not even ask him to respond, I simply noted the apparent inconsistencies.

    “Character assassination” is more blatantly dishonest language. As Leviticus eloquently said, the truth matters.

    Dave (445e97)

  340. This ain’t doxing, nor remotely close to that.

    But I will respect our host’s preference.

    I do ask this of our host: If Hoagie shows back up and resumes his assertions of personal history as grounds for giving his opinions (e.g., that DRJ is slime, or that I need to accept responsibility for the fall of western civilization by withholding my vote from Trump), does your proscription still apply?

    Beldar (fa637a)

  341. “Don’t believe everything you read on the internet.”
    – Abraham Lincoln

    Words to live by.

    Dave (445e97)

  342. As Leviticus eloquently said, the truth matters.

    Dave (445e97) — 6/25/2018 @ 10:05 am

    Yes, the truth does matter — selectively, I guess. It’s as if Hoagie’s embellishments were used to generate FISA warrants or launch a counterintelligence expedition. Nice to know what gets the gears of scepticism rolling in some people’s heads.

    random viking (6a54c2)

  343. It’s as if Hoagie’s embellishments were used to generate FISA warrants or launch a counterintelligence expedition.

    In the immortal words of our host: De logic she no follow.

    Dave (445e97)

  344. In the immortal words of our host @316:

    “please stop it now.”

    random viking (6a54c2)

  345. Wow, Narciso:

    https://patterico.com/2018/06/24/should-other-countries-target-trumps-businesses/#comment-2130005

    I actually do mean it, and have a history of showing kindness to the gentleman.

    Simon Jester (c8876d)

  346. I actually do mean it, and have a history of showing kindness to the gentleman.

    Everyone here – even the wretched Ben Burn – tried to be supportive and kind to him about the various personal/family problems he described.

    Dave (445e97)

  347. hounding somebody off of a site isn’t nice (bad manners) but it’s really quite cruel when that person’s sick and you despoil one of their more engaging past-times

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  348. love Siouxsie! and the cure too but i kinda listened them to death already

    here i trade you this they’re destined to remain under-rated for awhile yet i’m afraid

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  349. narciso @274. The “Stormy Daniels” FBI interview was postponed because apparently, her lawyer notified the press about it. Thre has to be a little bit more to this. So what?

    Sammy Finkelman (02a146)

  350. The big draft lottery (for several years of birthdates) was held on December 3, 1969.

    I suspect Bill Clinton changed his date of birth after that. (in the 1980 Almanac of American Politics, the first one where he appeared, he is the only politician without a date of birth – only a month, August, 1946. Maybe some people knew what his old date of birth used to be. Also, that would have been the only thing of interest in his passport file, had anyone looked at it. And yes, he was tied into a political machine that I think had some connection with HJoe, Arkanas, as well as Hot Springs.)

    Sammy Finkelman (02a146)

  351. 338… lol, ulb. Some swarthiness in teh menz is expected. Not so much teh fairer sex.

    Colonel Haiku (59ae41)

  352. I am closing comments.

    Patterico (35fa71)


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