Patterico's Pontifications

6/12/2018

Trump on the Summit with Rocket Man

Filed under: General — Patterico @ 6:38 am



He looked into his soul:

“I do trust him, yeah,” Trump said. “Maybe in a year you’ll be interviewing and I’ll say I made a mistake. It’s possible. We’re dealing at a high level, a lot of things can change a lot of things are possible.”

He pressed the president on his previous criticism of North Korea’s human rights abuses including starving his people, running labor camps and assassinating members of his own family.

“George, I’m given what I’m given,” Trump said. “This is what we have, this is where we are, and I can only tell you from my experience, and I’ve met him, I’ve spoken with him. I’ve met him. And this is, this has started early and it’s been very intense. I think that he really wants to do a great job for North Korea. I think he wants to de-nuke, without that, there’s nothing to discuss. It was on the table from the beginning, and you see a total denuclearization of North Korea – so important.”

Trump talked about the agreements that were reached at the summit in Singapore today, saying that he believes the North Korean leader “wants to do the right thing”.

“We have the framework for getting ready to denuclearize,” Trump said. “He’s de-nuking the whole place. I think he’s going to start now.”

Trump seemed to hold an optimistic take on Kim’s intentions, saying that the dictator “really wants to do something I think terrific for their country.”

I guess once you’ve committed to a summit like this, you have to say dumb things like this in the aftermath. It’s all of a piece.

So important. And keep in mind: the missle launches have stoped:

So there’s that.

[Cross-posted at The Jury Talks Back.]

311 Responses to “Trump on the Summit with Rocket Man”

  1. Ding.

    Patterico (115b1f)

  2. Seems like a lot of wishful thinking to me, but time will tell.

    JP (2fb936)

  3. Didn’t someone in the admin. say that this meeting taking place was impossible?

    Oh, that’s rite……..

    Now, attack the typo.

    harkin (e4ec42)

  4. Let’s see. Trump committed to nothing in that statement, nor did Kim. They will probably do another one of these meetings. Trump is likely to tweet friendly, rather than nasty.

    As far as I can tell, Trump is neither the second coming of Neville Chamberlin or Henry Kissinger. Your cable news source may disagree.

    Appalled (96665e)

  5. For now it’s all show.

    It’s not a big deal at all unless something positive and lasting actually happens.

    So far the only thing good you can really say about it is that it’s not as bad as giving them nuke technology and telling the world it will never be weaponized.

    harkin (e4ec42)

  6. there’s a lot going on here but one thing you can see is how President Trump’s making an interesting contrast with captain canada’s post-meeting petulance and immaturity

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  7. “Maybe in a year you’ll be interviewing and I’ll say I made a mistake. It’s possible.”

    Yeah, sure it is.

    Dave (445e97)

  8. one thing you can see is how President Trump’s making an interesting contrast with captain canada’s post-meeting petulance and immaturity

    Yes, he certainly knows who’s willing to flatter him to get their way who our real friends are!

    Dave (445e97)

  9. he knows Israel is a for reals friend

    Canada’s kind of a slut-friend what you keep around cause they have tasty syrup

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  10. Just a reminder that the media was slobbering all over N. Korea’s agent at the Olympics when they thought it was an insult to the administration.

    NJRob (b00189)

  11. Canada’s kind of a slut-friend what you keep around cause they have tasty syrup

    The Maple-Leaf State!

    Speaking of The Onion:

    Trump Touts Success Of Singapore Summit After Securing $10 Billion Trade Deal To Sell Nuclear Warheads To North Korea

    Dave (445e97)

  12. “Well, it was not easy to get here,” Kim said. “The past worked as fetters on our limbs, and the old prejudices and practices worked as obstacles on our way forward. But we overcame all of them, and we are here today.”

    this reminds me how Mr. Lao-tzu likes to say that when you go on a journey of a thousand miles it starts with a single step

    but it’s actually over 3,000 miles from Pyongyang to Singapore!

    lots to unpack here

    unless you buy all new stuff when you get there

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  13. And last November, Trump believed Putin when the shortish Russian autocrat denied that he meddled in the 2016 election. Funny how Trump believes the words of dictators but can’t listen to reason on tariffs when democratically-elected leaders are talking to him.
    It’s a good step with Fat Kim, but only a step. Prior to this, two good things have happened this year: Fat Kim stopped his missile tests and he returned American hostages. However, as someone mentioned on Morning Joe, the statement to denuclearize is aspirational but Trump’s decision to end military exercises with SK is a tangible thing.
    There are incredible amounts of details to be worked out but, so far, credit due, more to Pompeo than Trump, but credit due.

    Paul Montagu (c66aed)

  14. So The Onion is a couple decades late and credits Trump for the deeds of Clinton?

    Kind of funny that the press is going bonkers over how brief it was and how non-binding anything is while Clinton spent 17 months negotiating a deal the the N Koreans used to build nuclear missles.

    harkin (e5c973)

  15. Didn’t someone in the admin. say that this meeting taking place was impossible?

    Someone in the administration strongly implied, obviously incorrectly, that it was all but impossible. Then the New York Times incorrectly characterized the statement of that official, who existed and still does. Then Trump falsely pretended that the individual had not merely been mischaracterized but that he did not exist, and then people defended him by twisting words and using illogical interpretations. Now, the meeting has happened, proving that the official overstated the unlikelihood of its happening, and doing absolutely nothing to vindicate the illogical readings given Trump’s remarks by many of his superfans.

    Patterico (208d52)

  16. “I do trust him, yeah,” Trump said.

    How foolish, especially after Kim planted a spy in his campaign. That was the Norks, right?

    random viking (6a54c2)

  17. Syrup from Vermont is the best.

    mg (9e54f8)

  18. i’m definitely not buying the canadian kind anymore Mr. mg

    number one I don’t appreciate their attitude

    and for a lot of stuff i like molasses just as well

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  19. Small batch Ohio maple syrup beats them all.

    Nate Ogden (223c65)

  20. You put a nickel in, the peanuts pour out.

    harkin (e5c973)

  21. Unaccountably, Trump’s tweet is not wrong. And those who are judging this a mistake did so before Trump left, and those who viewed it as necessary did also. This changed nothing.

    We will know shortly, and before Kim can effectively threaten the US. And who knows, maybe the horse will sing.

    Kevin M (752a26)

  22. The Bad Hair Summit didn’t quite live up to the hype, but it was hardly a failure. A lot more needs to be done, but the sanctions remain in place and Mr Trump won’t be sending plane loads of cash to Pyongyang.

    Who knows? This may all fall apart, but it hasn’t failed yet.

    Robert Stacey Stacy McCain wrote:

    Trump knows a simple truth of business: You will always negotiate from a position of weakness if you are unwilling to walk away from the deal.

    One of my primary pieces of advice is to never accept a “no” from someone without the power to say “yes.” My response to “no” from such people is simple: “Let me speak to your supervisor.”

    President Trump, on the other hand, has the power to say “yes,” but still has the balls to say “no.” This was what happened to President Obama in the laughably bad Iranian nuclear deal. He wanted that deal, badly, as part of his legacy — he knew that there’d be no Arab-Israeli peace agreement for which he could take credit, so he lost the ability to say “no.”

    The realistic Dana (ad65b0)

  23. Trump is neither the second coming of Neville Chamberlin or Henry Kissinger

    It’s George Shultz that we need.

    Kevin M (752a26)

  24. speaking of gulags

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  25. Clinton and Obama delivered large sums of cash in their dealings with crooked countries. They are the worst people in our country. Jail those bastiges.

    mg (9e54f8)


  26. It’s George Shultz that we need.


    Perhaps, but it’s Sergeant Schultz we got so deal with it.

    (See, Trump supporters can make jokes too)

    Rev.Hoagie (c5d6cf)

  27. it’s not as bad as giving them nuke technology and telling the world it will never be weaponized.

    And THIS is why we are obligated to stop NK, by any means necessary. The NNPT, which they signed did both those things, and in return the nuclear powers promised not to use nuclear weapons against them.

    Then they violated the treaty in secret. Then they reneged openly. Tolerating that means all those other (20? 30? 50?) countries where we did the same thing would no longer feel constrained by the dead-letter treaty. Eight nuclear powers is unstable enough.

    Kevin M (752a26)

  28. Perhaps, but it’s Sergeant Schultz we got so deal with it.

    Pompeo is Sgt Schultz?

    And besides, the Know-Nothings have a long and honorable history in US politics.

    Kevin M (752a26)

  29. Not to compare the two, but Reykjavik, which marked the end of the Cold War, was called a failure too.

    Kevin M (752a26)

  30. oh my goodness look at lil marco

    looks like he’s tentatively exploring what it’s like to have a sense of integrity

    Sen. Marco Rubio (R-Fla.) on Tuesday charged that the news media’s coverage of President Trump’s meeting with North Korean leader Kim Jong Un was “hypocritical.”

    “Presidents meeting with [Kim Jong Un] exposed incredible hypocrisy of many in media. When Obama did these things, he was described as enlightened. When Trump does it he is reckless & foolish. 1 yr ago they attacked Trump for leading us towards war, now attack for being too quick for peace,” Rubio said in a tweet.

    i’m tentatively impressed, lil marco

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  31. Hats off to Haley for her forceful dialogue to the leaders of Russia and China during this.

    mg (9e54f8)

  32. The ‘De-nuke’ focus has echoes of Bush’s ‘Nu-cu-lar’. It’s so silly.

    Dejectedhead (81690d)

  33. Then they violated the treaty in secret….”

    Fast forward to Iran.

    harkin (e5c973)

  34. 15 — but what Trump critics miss is that pretty much everyone knew exactly what Trump meant in this tweet, considered in the context of the facts, and it was only through the deconstruction of the sentence structure, the use of symbolic logic from undergraduate philosophy classes, and ignoring the factual context provided by events, that his tweet became the subject of controversy, kicked off by Maggie Halberman at the NYT.

    Did you mention that it was the NYT that willfully MISCHARACTERIZED the official as part of is narrative that Trump is disconnected from the work of his staff and ignorant of the events taking place around him???

    Because THAT was the point of the entire NYT article.

    I don’t remember you mentioning that.

    shipwreckedcrew (56b591)

  35. Swc – do you really expect a different answer this time?

    My favorite exchange from back then:

    CT: “Translation: Details Schmeetails”

    P: “Don’t try to get work as a translator”

    CT: “Ditto Chief”

    harkin (e5c973)

  36. Fast forward to Iran.

    Indeed. The two are connected. If you don’t lay down the law now, when?

    Kevin M (752a26)

  37. Meanwhile: International House of Pancakes Burgers?

    Kevin M (752a26)

  38. Can’t disagree with Jonah:

    How to grade the Singapore summit? I think the most fair-minded answer is that it’s too soon to tell, but there’s every reason in the world to be deeply skeptical that Kim will make good on his commitments to “de-nuclearize.” Why? Because: North Korea has promised to do exactly that — with far more specificity — in the past. The actual paper agreement that Trump and Kim signed is not just worthless on its own, it’s less than worthless given that it literally recycles past worthless promises as if they are new ones. That’s contrary to the opinions of a lot of people on Twitter and TV who think — and feel — that this is Trump’s masterstroke. This isn’t a criticism of Trump. It’s just a simple recognition of reality. The Norks have bamboozled everyone else who extracted promises from them. By all means, let’s hope for the best. But North Korean duplicity is normal.
    Moreover, there’s good reason to believe that if Kim were sincere about getting rid of his nukes, his own regime would kill him. The nuclear program is a unifying tool of state propaganda, celebrated and mythologized in grade schools and everywhere else in Korean society. Expecting them to get rid of them is like expecting the Hell’s Angels to forswear motorcycles in favor of minivans.

    But if it takes us further from a military conflict with the Fat Kim, then okay.

    Paul Montagu (c66aed)

  39. there’s so many really excellent artisanal pancake places now I think ihop’s right to make a bold move here

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  40. @ Paul Montagu, who wrote (#13):

    There are incredible amounts of details to be worked out but, so far, credit due, more to Pompeo than Trump, but credit due.

    You think that on a net basis, credit is due to Pompeo or Trump?

    We gave the Norks, and Kim personally, the greatest propaganda coup in the history of their country. We gave him photos of him on an equal basis with the President of the United States (never mind that that office is temporarily occupied by a preposterous reality TV star, he nevertheless arrived on Air Force One). We gave him the legitimacy of pretending that he loves his people, and the POTUS actually said that out loud without spontaneously combusting or being struck by lightning. He returns to his junta its undisputed and indisputable leader, the man who finally brought the Americans to treat him like an equal, to treat him like a world power, instead of like the fourth-rate tin-pot dictator-with-nukes that he actually is.

    The suspension of the joint military maneuvers with the South Koreans affects them, too. From news reports it came as a surprise to our own military; it surely must be a surprise to theirs, too, and while the current South Korean president may not protest, there are certainly more realistic elements within his own country, and especially within its military, who will conclude — correctly, it seems — that Trump has no more appetite for taking on North Korea militarily than Obama did. This summit didn’t include a renunciation of the use of military force by the U.S., but that is its indisputable practical effect for the present and going forward.

    Most of all, we gave him a 180-degree turn away from the prior American posture, which was of one of “maximum pressure,” both verbal and economic, with a credible military threat around the edges. The biggest difficulty in using military means to effect regime change in North Korea is the lack of political support at home that would translate into a Congressional authorization for the use of force like the ones George H.W. Bush and George W. Bush secured in order to evict Saddam from Kuwait and then, ultimately, topple his government in Iraq. Now Trump’s completely dissipated all of the political capital he’d been handed by Kim’s nuclear and missile tests.

    And we got nothing — nothing but a repetition of empty promises they’ve made before, about their version of “denuclearization” (undefined in yesterday’s document). The damn document makes that clear enough when it says that Kim “reaffirms his commitment.” Since it was never a real commitment, reaffirming it is completely meaningless.

    He’s been taken to the cleaners, and yet his cult followers insist, “It’s a good start!” As if there weren’t decades of history of broken Nork promises. As if this, the most ruthless of any of North Korea’s dictators, is now worthy of our — America’s and the free world’s — trust on anything.

    So I ask you, Mr. Montagu: On a net basis, what did America get out of this summit that leads you to believe credit is due to either Trump or Pompeo? All I see is proof that Pompeo is as big an idiot as Trump is.

    Beldar (fa637a)

  41. Apologies for a missed close-italics tag in #40.

    Beldar (fa637a)

  42. it’s funny to see the cowardly limp-wristed South Koreans whining about not getting to play war games

    but as far as the failmerican tranny-trash military ever having presented a credible threat to north korea?

    that didn’t just stop being a thing when north korea went nuclear

    it was *never* a thing cause we could never be sure how the dirty chinesers would respond – and the pathetic mattis military’s scared to death of china

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  43. On a net basis, what did America get out of this summit that leads you to believe credit is due to either Trump or Pompeo? All I see is proof that Pompeo is as big an idiot as Trump is.

    Yep.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  44. Trump repeatedly said that if there wasn’t a good deal to be made, he’d walk away from it.

    What he signed isn’t much of a deal — it has no specifics, it has no teeth or enforcement mechanism, it’s nothing more than a naked agreement to agree (or, on the Nork’s side, to pretend to try to agree). Besides a repetition of their often-made and often-broken promise to cooperate fully in the return of POW/MIA remains, we got only a repetition of their often-made and always-broken promise to work toward “denuclearization” — not the complete, verifiable, irreversible denuclearization on our terms that would be the minimum commitment to be meaningful, but a vague goal that in the past they’ve defined as America withdrawing our forces and abandoning our South Korean ally (like we abandoned our South Vietnamese ally).

    So why was this not a bad deal to walk away from? Or, more accurately, why wasn’t this a bad charade of deal-making without a real deal, that Trump should have run away from to deny the Norks the world-wide and internal propaganda coup that Kim is celebrating today?

    Beldar (fa637a)

  45. Pompeo is as big an idiot as Trump is.

    let’s not forget that sexy rexy tillerboobs (just like panty-boi mattis) thought staying in that yummy iran deal was a strategic masterstroke

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  46. How does this take us farther from a military conflict with Kim?

    For that to be even partly true, don’t we have to rely entirely on Kim’s unsupported bona fides?

    If, as I believe to be the case, Kim’s just suckered another American POTUS into a further indefinite period of dithering, doesn’t that actually make an eventual war — started at a time and place of their choosing, not ours — more likely, rather than less?

    Beldar (fa637a)

  47. 44.Trump repeatedly said that if there wasn’t a good deal to be made, he’d walk away from it.

    What he signed isn’t much of a deal — it has no specifics, it has no teeth or enforcement mechanism, it’s nothing more than a naked agreement to agree (or, on the Nork’s side, to pretend to try to agree).

    Yep.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  48. south korea isn’t worth one american life and everybody knows it

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  49. “I do trust him, yeah,”

    Neville Chamberlain thought he could trust Hitler, and he came back with “peace in our time.”

    It is not only what we would now call human rights, and the rights of other countries, that he ignored, but his treacherous dealings with other people – even close associates.

    On the other hand, Hitler had no parallel in the treachery department. He’s best known as evil, but he was also treacherous, and not incompetent at that.

    This is different also in another way. Trump is not relying on this trust. He’s just being optimistic.

    Sammy Finkelman (02a146)

  50. I think Kim just decided, and/or was under Chinese tutelage, to agree to anything.

    That does not mean he might not find it in his interest to follow through.

    Sammy Finkelman (02a146)

  51. What have we learned?

    Kim is a better negotiator: “what’s mine is mine and what’s yours is negotiable”… the 34 year old Kim will still be in power years after the 72 year old Donald is out of office, dead and buried… and the less sleep our Captain gets, the easier he is to roll.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  52. The best thing about IHOP’s version of the New Coke is the response from the other vendors.

    Wendy’s
    @wendys
    Can’t wait to try a burger from the place that decided pancakes were too hard

    Red Robin
    @redrobinburgers
    We’re as serious about pancakes as @IHOb is about burgers

    harkin (e5c973)

  53. One thing Congress could do is pass a law that reimposed all the penalties on ZTE, not now, but if the sanctions they violated were not lifted by midnight eastern time, on September 30, 2020. That would give Trump leverage, maybe as strong as a authorization for the use of force (which isn’t needed) Trump would also not fight such a bill, or if he did,, not very hard, unlike what';s being proposed now.

    That would give China a real incentive to see to it that North Korea completed the denuclearization because Trump probably isn’t going to lift all these sanctions unless North Korea comes at least very close to complete denuclearization by that date.

    That date, note, is before the next presidential election.

    Sammy Finkelman (02a146)

  54. Now we know why it was entirely possible to put together this “summit” with virtually no prep time, in the “10 minutes” that Mr. Pottinger (who was there with Trump) described in his presser:

    When you’re giving away the store and getting nothing in return, that doesn’t take long to prepare for.

    Kim got everything he realistically could have hoped for, plus more — a promise of a visit to the White House. Trump can let him sleep in the Lincoln bedroom and point out what a good deal he’s giving Kim, since after all Bubba used to charge (in campaign donations or other graft) for that privilege.

    Beldar (fa637a)

  55. “My meeting with Chairman Kim was honest, direct, and productive. We got to know each other very well in a very confined period of time under very strong, strong circumstances.”

    Trump should not use those words “got to know each other very well” because he also once said that he got to know Putin very well because they were on the same broadcast of the CBS show “60 Minutes”

    Sammy Finkelman (02a146)

  56. america didn’t give anything up at all plus we’re saving a ton of money by canceling those pansy-ass war games

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  57. 54. Beldar (fa637a) — 6/12/2018 @ 11:32 am

    When you’re giving away the store and getting nothing in return,

    Kim just said yes to everything.

    Sammy Finkelman (02a146)

  58. It’s George Shultz that we need.

    It’s Charles Schulz we got: Peanuts.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  59. Restarting the military arrangements in Skor is not hard, as these things go. The infrastructure–barracks, warehouses, magazines–is already there.
    As a general rule, when an enemy reneges on treaty requirements, the US’ liberals insist that acting as if the treaty were breached and actually doing something…is forbidden by the treaty. I doubt Trump would be moved by that argument. Hope not.

    Richard Aubrey (10ef71)

  60. Oh, yeah. Do we have Bill Maher’s take on this?

    Richard Aubrey (10ef71)

  61. 54.Now we know why it was entirely possible to put together this “summit” with virtually no prep time, in the “10 minutes” that Mr. Pottinger (who was there with Trump) described in his presser: ‘When you’re giving away the store and getting nothing in return, that doesn’t take long to prepare for.’ Kim got everything he realistically could have hoped for, plus more — a promise of a visit to the White House…

    Yep.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  62. Beldar, I had a response to you but it’s stuck in the moderation queue, which I really don’t get how it works. Last week, I wrote something about Ali Watkins and the secret seizure of her records, and it never saw the light of day. It wasn’t profane.

    Paul Montagu (c66aed)

  63. More from Trump: (He said Kim went eve further than he initially agreed)

    “This isn’t the past. This isn’t another administration that never got it started and therefore never got it done. Chairman Kim has told me that North Korea is already destroying a major missile engine testing site. That isn’t in the signed document – we agreed to that after the agreement was signed.”

    Sammy Finkelman (02a146)

  64. We gave him photos of him on an equal basis with the President of the United States.

    Beldar (fa637a) — 6/12/2018 @ 10:56 am

    In a comment under the post “Trump Cancels North Korea Summit”:

    This is a major cock-up. Trump owns it. I’m disinclined to pretend otherwise, and I’m not optimistic at all….”

    Beldar (fa637a) — 5/24/2018 @ 12:39 pm

    You look tired. Put down the goalposts, and get some rest.

    shipwreckedcrew (56b591)

  65. “When you’re giving away the store and getting nothing in return, that doesn’t take long to prepare for.

    Goalposts indeed.

    With luck you’ll be as right about this as you were about the meeting even happening.

    harkin (e5c973)

  66. lol

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  67. Returning the USS Pueblo is Kim’s Trump card. Insist on the deluxe Mickey Dee’s, big fella, built in Pyongyang’s TV Tower at American expense, of course. BTW, love the Bond villain look. Gotta get Ivanka to have a line in the stores by the holidays, eh, Captain.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  68. @ swc: You have once again misrepresented me. I criticized Trump for ever agreeing to meet with Kim without having secured any meaningful commitments in advance. I did not criticize Trump for canceling the summit; that was not the “cock-up” that you’ve selected my words out of context to suggest I meant.

    You seem intent on making me into your sustained enemy by misrepresenting what I’ve written and attributing to me motives that I do not have. I resent it.

    Beldar (fa637a)

  69. Beldar:

    Your #44 is stipulated — the piece of paper signed by Trump commits nobody to anything. It gives Trump an excuse to be mad on Twitter if the NORKs pull one of their typical stunts. The NORKs didn’t really agree to anything, so I guess this is a hard thing to violate.

    But, as to the propaganda coup to Kim — I am kind of so what about it. We aren’t any kind of avatar of democracy so long as Trump loves up on Putin and Xi and Duterte and the memory of Saddam Hussein. One more thug doesn’t mean that much. And Kim isn’t Putin — nobody outside of NORK looks on him as a shining example of anything, and that makes the propaganda coup limited in effect.

    The real question is what does Trump really have in mind, and I think it is getting out of Korea. That would be consistent with his worldview. Thing is, he needs to get something for that gift — his ego at least demands it, so I think he will continue down this road of de-nuke. The question will be whether he gives away too much. Since he doesn’t go for over-fancy solutions, I don’t think we’ll end up with some UN diplomatic Rube Goldberg machine.

    Appalled (96665e)

  70. Beldar, maybe I’m putting too much emphasis on Item #5 of my doctrine (which I established because liberals were too often putting words in my mouth), but I really do believe that it’s okay to keep diplomatic channels open as much as possible, but with expectations kept really low, and this doesn’t preclude putting “maximum pressure” on him in the form of sanctions and continuing to call for Kim to dismantle his nuclear program.
    I don’t see Trump’s suspension of military maneuvers as a terrible thing because he can un-suspend them if Fat Kim behaves like a dick, which I’m confident will happen. In the larger context of Kim releasing American hostages and suspending missile tests, Trump’s gesture is not completely out of line. The concern I have is that Trump will give up even more while Kim welshes or stalls.
    But like it or not, Fat Kim is the legitimate leader of his country. I think it’s better to talk with him than not, especially if it moves us even a little further away from military conflict. I doubt we’ll actually get to an agreement with real “trust but verify” provisions, which puts us pretty much where we were six months ago. Trump can still use a failed agreement for his gain by saying “I tried to get Kim to a fair agreement and he wouldn’t take it, so we’re going to sanction the son-of-a-b**ch and urge China to step up to the plate and take some responsibility.”

    Paul Montagu (c66aed)

  71. The summit has to be put in context of what’s happening in East Asia. For example, this:

    http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-06-12/china-warns-citizens-in-vietnam-after-protests/9857786

    If you know anyone who is Vietnamese, odds are they are talking about this. It’s been going on for weeks and is only now getting into the western press. Potentially could peter out, or could be another Tiananmen.

    If the Special Economic Zones were for the U.S. or Japan, there would be no protests. It’s only because it’s China. You can find such sentiments in places like Cambodia as well.

    Given a choice, North Korea would much rather have an alliance (economic, political) with the U.S. than China. This is low hanging fruit for the U.S., and maybe Trump is the first to realize that.

    Americans don’t realize just how valued their country is in East Asia, and yes this extends to Trump. The press likes to paint a different picture, but it’s simply wrong.

    random viking (a66018)

  72. Here was my full comment, from which swc plucked a line out of context to suggest that I’m moving my goalposts. To the contrary, what I said then — that in agreeing to the summit to begin with, Trump had already given the Norks what they most want (out of what’s realistically possible):

    Trump just gave away — for three hostages, which is not nothing, but is also not the basis for major diplomatic concessions in return from the world’s only superpower — something that no previous American President since Eisenhower has ever gotten close to giving away: He recognized the leader of the North Korean government as a co-equal entitled to sit across a negotiating table from a President of the United States.

    He’s also given the Norks something that unfortunately, every American President since Clinton has also given them: More time.

    Having pocketed the worldwide prestige and resumed hold on his ruling junta that accrues from both of these victories, Kim will blame Trump and the U.S. for walking away from the “peace and denuclearization process.” The Norks routinely make ridiculous claims, but this one actually will persuade some people in the world who are already hostile to Trump and/or the U.S.

    TR — despite his own instincts as a showman and crowd-pleaser, his own desire (in the words of daughter Alice) to be the corpse at every funeral, the bride at every wedding, and the baby at every christening — also knew how to speak softly and carry a big stick.

    Trump speaks loudly, encourages others to fawn over him, and uses his stick on porn stars.

    This is a major cock-up. Trump owns it. I’m disinclined to pretend otherwise, and I’m not optimistic at all that he can either reach (meaning: close on!) a deal, or lead America and a coalition of the willing into further action that will take the decisions out of Kim’s hands.

    To similar effect in the same set of comments:

    Oh, I have a long list of things to suggest to Trump, starting with taking a sledgehammer to his damn cellphones. But I don’t have anything to suggest to you, me, or other readers here except that we be realistic and honest in assessing this. Pretending that this [i.e., the scheduled and then canceled summit] has been a step in the right direction is not constructive. But as your comment suggests, we’re all stuck with the fact that Trump is the POTUS we have, not the POTUS who could either make peace or lead us into war.

    I was absolutely, positively not criticizing Trump for cancelling the summit, but rather, for ever agreeing to it. Elsewhere on that page, you’ll see I also said then exactly that which I’ve said today, which is that Trump is forfeiting the political capital upon which any credible military threat depends by overpromising and underdelivering.

    Beldar (fa637a)

  73. https://www.nationalreview.com/2018/06/north-korean-regime-limits-access-to-electricity-to-keep-power/

    A staggering 18.4 million North Koreans, some 70 percent of the country’s population, do not have access to electrical power….. In February, as sanctions on his country began pinching his regime’s finances, rather than increase the supply of electricity to North Koreans, he began selling it to China. According to the Seoul-based publication Daily NK, the electricity from a hydroelectric dam in the western part of the country was being supplied to a Chinese factory that produces fire-proofing materials. In return, Kim’s regime is getting cash payments of up to $100,000 per month. The Daily NK also reported that “The abrupt choice to export electricity means that the absolute amount of energy supplied domestically will be reduced. Power will continue to be supplied first and foremost to Kim Il Sung and Kim Jong Il idolization sites, munitions factories, and essential government organizations like the Party, and intelligence bodies, etc.”

    North Korea is so short of power that last year, Kim’s regime began installing electric meters in buildings in the capital, Pyongyang, which suffers from frequent blackouts, as part of an effort to reduce electricity consumption.

    There’s another thing they do:

    During blackouts, police go into apartments (this would be of people close to the regime) and check for videotapes stuck in VCRs or maybe something more advanced, to see if any of them are contraband. Once the electricity is off,people can’t get them out of the players, and they are caught.

    Sammy Finkelman (02a146)

  74. Kevin M, if not for the unfortunate name, Sambo’s would be wiping the floor with IHOB/P and Dennys.

    Appalled, you nailed 3rd paragraph, and I think he has his eye on switching the DMZ contingent over to our southern border. Then it will just be hot potato betweek South Ko and China as to who gets stuck with the redevelopment of NK.

    urbanleftbehind (5eecdb)

  75. The worst outcome that we could expect is for the North Korean nuclear program to remain frozen where it is, and resume with the next POTUS.

    Sammy Finkelman (02a146)

  76. @64 LOL, well played

    Angelo (67c8c3)

  77. Trump 101: sell the sizzle, not the steak.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  78. Beldar:

    We gave the Norks, and Kim personally, the greatest propaganda coup in the history of their country.

    You think he was in need of something to solidify his status in NK??

    We gave him the legitimacy of pretending that he loves his people, and the POTUS actually said that out loud without spontaneously combusting or being struck by lightning.

    Has the status of his grandfather, father, or himself, waned over the last 7 decades as a result of doubts among the population about whether he “loves” his people? Is Trump now responsible for somehow coverering the eyes of the NK population to the reality of their relationship with their ruling family?

    He returns to his junta its undisputed and indisputable leader, the man who finally brought the Americans to treat him like an equal, to treat him like a world power,…

    LMAO — I spit my coffer on the screen over the idea expressed here that there has been any doubt over 7 decades that the Kim family was the “undisupted and indisputable leader” of NK. It’s a shame Trump removed the doubts about that in the last 24 hours.

    instead of like the fourth-rate tin-pot dictator-with-nukes that he actually is.

    Among the things that Trump said yesterday that IMO was the most revealing of the fact that he’s rationally in control of what transpired was this exchange with Stephanopolous in his interview:

    G: You say his people love him. Just a few months ago you accused him of starving his people. And listen, here’s the rub. Kim is a brutal dictator. He runs a police state, forced starvation, labor camps. He’s assassinated members of his own family. How do you trust a killer like that?

    T: George, I’m given what I’m given, okay? I mean, this is what we have, and this is where we are, and I can only tell you from my experience, and I met him, I’ve spoken with him, and I’ve met him.

    Its a “realpolitik” view of circumstances — its the box within which you have to negotiate because the stage was set by those who came before you. So, like working your way out of bad position on a chess board, you do it one move at a time. It’s going to be 2 steps forward and 1 step back for a while — but as long as its that, then things are headed in the right direction.

    I think the Trump Administration has measured Kim correctly — I think Adm. Stavridis’s description of Kim’s regime is exactly correct — he’s a gangster, not an idealogue like the Iranian Mullahs. The risk and cost of taking out the gangster is too high, so the way you work to change a gangster is to convince him that “evolving” will be in the long run just as profitable — if not more so — and a whole lot safer.

    One example or a relatively minor variety — you sit across from Kim and say, “I know our are making tens of millions of dollars counterfeiting our currency. Why do that? Why not just do legitimate business with US, Chinese, South Korean, and Japanese companies? You’ll make hundreds of millions of dollars that way, and you’ll be applauded for it.”

    And I never lose sight of the fact that he’s got Pompeo and Mattis on each elbow while moving through this minefield.

    shipwreckedcrew (56b591)

  79. Talk about flattery:

    https://gizmodo.com/president-trump-made-a-fake-movie-trailer-for-kim-jong-1826755454

    …Trump played a video for Kim on his iPad. The video was created to look like a Hollywood movie trailer…

    …The fake trailer, complete with sweeping music and a dramatic voiceover, imagines a world where Trump and Kim have brought peace. And it even includes the phrase, “Destiny Pictures presents…” as though it was a real movie trailer. There is a real “Destiny Pictures” in existence but it has a .biz domain and doesn’t appear to have any relationship with the White House.

    The fake movie trailer was also played for reporters shortly before Trump took the stage for a press conference in Singapore earlier today….

    This is the English version:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A838gS8nwas&feature=youtu.be

    There’s also a Korean version.

    Sammy Finkelman (02a146)

  80. Senators Tammy Duckworth and Chris Murphy introduced the amendment to the John S. McCain National Defense Authorization act on Monday, aiming to prevent the president from starting a war with North Korea without an imminent threat or without the permission of Congress.

    lol number one naming a national defense authorization act after a mewling coward like piggy-boy mccain

    lol number two tammy duckworth

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  81. You seem intent on making me into your sustained enemy by misrepresenting what I’ve written and attributing to me motives that I do not have. I resent it.

    Some would rather knock down a strawman than grapple honestly with an opponent’s actual argument. Spending your life explaining “that’s not what I said” is not how I like to spend my time, and talking to people who serially misrepresent me is a waste of my time. I recommend not doing it.

    Patterico (208d52)

  82. I really WANT to think that all this will work out well, that this time it’s different after all those decades of broken promises, that Kim really does want to repent of his brutal, murderous ways. I want to be optimistic, but I’m finding it rather difficult. Especially after hearing Trump’s vapid talk about “chemistry,” and what a great guy Kim is. So, you negotiate with someone who has the blood of thousands on his hands, and you get all starry eyed and start slobbering. I’m finding it even harder to be optimistic after hearing that.

    Roger (e8eadf)

  83. Trump also showed Kim Jong Un his top of the line limousine (trying to make him jealous?)

    Sammy Finkelman (02a146)

  84. You can say what you want about the way Trump talks, but here’s the thing, and it’s an important point, one I think nobody gets, or maybe some people get but a lot of people don’t get and some of them who do get it don’t understand how important it is, but it’s a big point that I don’t see mentioned so often, well maybe some places but not the mainstream media certainly, which by the way is totally unfair and biased against Trump so like when he has a major accomplishment, like the many, many major accomplishments he’s had in his life going back to the 1970’s and ’80’s in New York City, the greatest city in the world where you can get some great food but none as good as this little deli over on 17th that me and my friend Jimmy from Kansas City, another great city I think although some people say it’s not so great but I like it better than San Diego, I can tell you that. And that’s all I’m going to say about that.

    Jerryskids (cfad51)

  85. who cares if kim repents

    the job at hand is to get rid of the nukey nukes what can take out our aircraft carriers in the blink of an eye (really fast)

    bill clinton couldn’t prevent it

    george w bush was helpless and distracted by his stupid and murderous wars of choice

    captain food stamp just shrugged and said you want nukes we’re not gonna stop you

    the tranny-trash mattis military are become a skittish doe before the mighty Kim

    there is only President Trump now

    he alone has the wisdom and the acumen to navigate these treacherous waters

    what lies on yonder shores no man can say

    but we’ll sail fast and we’ll sail true

    his hand held firm on the rudder

    and should we chance upon success, or rendezvous with bitter failure

    we’ll be a better people for having made this voyage

    thank you President Trump!

    thank you for all you do for us

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  86. Jerryskids – exactly.

    bendover (1b807d)

  87. Beldar @ 68:

    Not so fast. From the same comment:

    @ Kevin M: Trump just gave away [by cancelling the summit] — for three hostages, which is not nothing, but is also not the basis for major diplomatic concessions in return from the world’s only superpower — something that no previous American President since Eisenhower has ever gotten close to giving away: He recognized the leader of the North Korean government as a co-equal entitled to sit across a negotiating table from a President of the United States.

    He’s also given the Norks something that unfortunately, every American President since Clinton has also given them: More time. [i.e., by cancelling the summit].

    Having pocketed the worldwide prestige and resumed hold on his ruling junta that accrues from both of these victories [i.e., by getting the summit in the first instance before it was cancelled], Kim will blame Trump and the U.S. for walking away from the “peace and denuclearization process.” The Norks routinely make ridiculous claims, but this one actually will persuade some people in the world who are already hostile to Trump and/or the U.S.

    Your point — which I did not mischaracterize or take out of context — was that canceling the summit would be seen as a black eye for Trump, and a victory for Kim. This comment has NOTHING to do with criticism of Trump for not “having secured any meaningful commitments in advance.”

    While it might very well be true that traditional diplomatic discourse between hostile actors begins with working out details at lower level, resulting in meaningful commitments that are then endorsed by the leaders at the summit, that was never the design here. Trump upended the norm by having a meeting of the principals in advance of the details being worked out.

    Whether Kim will, or even intends to follow through, he made statements of a commitment at the meeting, and we gave him nothing in exchange for them except a cancellation of military exercises.

    Whether that’s an effective mechanism in the situation with the Norks — an intransigent mess for 7 decades — remains to be seen. But that was the design. It gives Trump the “whip hand” on sanctions if Kim does backslide in working out the details. Trump can go to China and said “Kim promised XYZ, but now he’s reversed himself. Take care of it or things go bad for you both from here.”

    It exposes why the Iran deal was so wrong-headed. The Iran deal gave the Iranians relief from sanctions without having to first comply — it handed over the carrot, while holding back the whip. Now that the Iranians are continuing to march across the desert intent on having religious confrontations with Sunni states, the Euros want no part of resuming sanctions. Why? Because the Euros are making a bunch of money doing business with Iran again.

    shipwreckedcrew (56b591)

  88. They actually did work out something at lower levels: The wording of the communique.

    Sammy Finkelman (02a146)

  89. 80 — comments that don’t take into account the actual words and arguments advanced by others with opposing views are pretty much worthless because they lack context.

    Beldar said I took his earlier comment out of context, but didn’t show how that was the case.

    I just put up the first 3 paragraphs from the same comment I referred to, showing that I did not take his words out of context, and his comment had nothing to do with what he suggested.

    I suspect you didn’t look back at Beldar’s earlier comment before weighing in with an ad hominem attack.

    What’s that “pot” and “kettle” saying again??

    shipwreckedcrew (56b591)

  90. Trump claiemd that this summit all took place bwecause of Otto Warmbier.

    I recall was tweeting about North Korea before that. (He said taht porobably because he didn’t want to seem to be ignoring his death)

    Sammy Finkelman (02a146)

  91. Both the pot and the kettle are black, and equally so, but the pot nevertheless hurls this description at the kettle as if it were an effective and cogent criticism, heedless of how that criticism applies equally as well to itself.

    This was in olden times, you see.

    We have enamel and ceramic pots now what can bring a pop of color to any stove top, and at a reasonable price.

    happyfeet (28a91b)


  92. 82.Trump also showed Kim Jong Un his top of the line limousine (trying to make him jealous?)
    Sammy Finkelman (02a146) — 6/12/2018 @ 12:26 pm


    They’ll never get the stench of kimchee out. Trust me.

    Rev.Hoagie (c5d6cf)

  93. It’s not what you look at that matters,

    it’s what you see. (H.D. Thoreau 1817-1862) (deceased)

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  94. I guess this is stage 2, good grief, compared to social worker, and kramerica intern for bob shrum, wendy Sherman, this has to be a better deal, they gave her the iran deal to negotiate after that,

    narciso (d1f714)

  95. 86. shipwreckedcrew (56b591) — 6/12/2018 @ 12:43 pm

    Whether Kim will, or even intends to follow through, he made statements of a commitment at the meeting, and we gave him nothing in exchange for them except a cancellation of military exercises.

    We also seeme3de to have stopped the intensificaiton of sanctions – and even commuted the death penalty of the Chinese company ZTE (at first, that seemed to be taken by North Korea as a signal to get all hostile to the United States again. Trump had to make a course correction to get things back on track.)

    The Iran deal gave the Iranians relief from sanctions without having to first comply

    That’s true, but here still, the level of sanctions remains more or less frozen for now.

    Sammy Finkelman (02a146)

  96. Trump is also trying to bribe Kim Jong Un (without actually giving him anything on credit, by the way.)

    He showed him possible praise Kim might get (which means he could be an honored tourist in many places in the world. He’d like that, maybe. Of course Kim might be afriad to leave his country.)

    He showed him that maybe he could have his own beach resort, right in North Korea.

    He showed him a limousine. i.e. “ This, too can be yours, if you only give us your plutonium and your missiles and your biologoical and chemical weapons.

    Sammy Finkelman (02a146)

  97. Beldar — or maybe we should have worked out the details of the commitments in advance, and had them memorialized at the summit. When signed, we could have suspended the sanctions, allowed economic aid to flow into the North, and begun the process of trying to bring the two Koreas together with an eye towards normalization.

    Wait. Wasn’t that the “Agreed Framework”??

    Didn’t the stupendous “verification” regime in that agreement fail to discovery the Nork’s continued development of nukes for more than seven years after the agreement was signed, even though they never stopped?

    Didn’t the Norks agree to give up their existing nuke reactors which were capable of producing weapons grade plutonium, in exchange for 500,000 tons of fuel oil annually, and the construction of two light water reactors for power generation to replace their existing reactor??

    And didn’t the Norks then start a uranium enrichment program that would enable them to use the spend uranium from the light water reactors to process into weapons grade material????

    Weren’t all the details of the “Agree Framework” negotiated in advance, just like you thought Trump should do here?

    shipwreckedcrew (56b591)

  98. swc, in #86 above, you’ve inserted a bracketed portion which is absolutely inconsistent with the remainder of the sentence, in which I was focused not on the cancellation of the summit, but the agreement to hold it in the first place. That’s what the colon means: It indicates a logical relationship between what goes before and what follows. Thus I described what was given away as “recogniz[ing] the leader of the North Korean government as a co-equal entitled to sit across a negotiating table from a President of the United States.”

    He gave them time by scheduling the summit to begin with. I applauded its cancellation, and you insist on claiming the opposite. He then rescheduled the summit, and has now allowed Kim to play him like a drugged fish, and given them even more time — quite literally an undefined amount of time, since the document which was signed has no deadlines or timetables, and Trump has insisted that the Norks are going to start complying “soon” without saying whether that means this week, this month, this calendar quarter, this year, or this decade.

    You have no arguments, but you are eager to attack me, including blatantly misrepresenting what I’ve written here. Your own arguments are spectacularly counterfactual: “[Kim] made statements of a commitment at the meeting, and we gave him nothing in exchange for them except a cancellation of military exercises,” you wrote. Bullsh!t. We gave him a summit with the POTUS. Today he’s an international rock star who dealt with Trump as an equal, whom Trump admits “loves his people,” instead of a murderous dictator ruling by bayonet and anti-aircraft cannon. You claim Trump has a “whip hand” — oh really? He’s thrown away the moral high ground.

    I’m done with you, sir. You argue in bad faith, and you cannot resist attacking me or our host when you have no actual counterargument.

    Beldar (fa637a)

  99. Maybe Trump should work with Hollywood or otehr content leaders, and get Kim addicted to some show, but withheld the episodes, or early releases of episodes, until he gets rid of nuclear biologoical and chemical weapons, as well as his missiles?

    But in truth the problem is his prisoners.

    Sammy Finkelman (02a146)

  100. Legalized gambling likely did more to end the mafia’s rule of terror across our land than the FBI did. Bringing kid Kim to Singapore and showing him what he could have if he changes course and denukes is a low-risk gamble. The people who’ve been talking to the Norks and the people who talked to Kim and his crew in Singapore may be proven wrong but are nevertheless in the best position to assess Kim’s intentions. It’s worth recognizing, however, that even if Kim does want to change NK’s course the rest of the regime may not be so willing. Time will tell if he can pull it off, even if he’s willing.

    crazy (5c5b07)

  101. shipwreckedcrew (56b591) — 6/12/2018 @ 1:10 pm

    All you are really doing in that comment is stating the case that unless an agreement to denuke North Korea with conditions that made it realistically verifiable was close to being finalized, this summit should never have taken place.

    kishnevi (f6ba20)

  102. 97. Beldar (fa637a) — 6/12/2018 @ 1:12 pm

    He’s thrown away the moral high ground.

    Right, but they all do.

    Trump is trying to assure Kim that he’ll stay in power.

    That’s like a SWAt team assuring someone holding hostages that they ahve no intention of arfresting him.

    What they could so is say that threatening more people will move them to action. And there’s quite enough deterrence against teh SWAtb team moving in as is.

    Anyway, even if Kim believed nobody knows and nobody cares what he does in North Korea, he cannot rest assured that will remain a permanent condition. What could help is if he beleives there is maybe some positive interest on the part of the United States in his staying in power – which could happen if he agreed to inform the U.S. about China. which would be soemthing subject to expiration.

    Sammy Finkelman (02a146)

  103. I keep reading that Trump didn’t know what he was getting himself into or what he’s done in meeting Kim.

    This seems a pertinent line.

    On the other hand I am starting to think that Kim wasn’t quite ready for Trump, either.

    JP (2fb936)

  104. 99. crazy (5c5b07) — 6/12/2018 @ 1:14 pm

    It’s worth recognizing, however, that even if Kim does want to change NK’s course the rest of the regime may not be so willing. Time will tell if he can pull it off, even if he’s willing.

    If he plays his cards right, he might get away with a very comfortable exile, at least for the time being. Qaddafi actually had that choice. Saddam Hussein, too.

    Sammy Finkelman (02a146)

  105. We gave him the legitimacy of pretending that he loves his people, and the POTUS actually said that out loud without spontaneously combusting or being struck by lightning.

    <3 Beldar…

    If Kim managed to keep a straight face during Trump’s moronic fake movie trailer, he is indeed “very talented”.

    I hope Kim comes to the next summit with a fake erectile dysfunction infomercial on his I-Pad for Trump…

    Dave (69d2f6)

  106. What could help is if he beleives there is maybe some positive interest on the part of the United States in his staying in power – which could happen if he agreed to inform the U.S. about China.

    Sammy I think there’s a fair chance that Pompeo’s visits may have set that in motion.

    crazy (5c5b07)

  107. It was a delightful summit. Everyone who was actually there says so.

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  108. there’s been exactly two korean international rock stars and that was that guy what pretended to ride a horsey i can’t even remember his name and some gay-ass boy band

    and they were both from the south part of the country not the northern gulag part

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  109. I hope Kim comes to the next summit with a fake erectile dysfunction infomercial on his I-Pad for Trump…

    The likes of a Madeline Albright would never stoop to the level of a fake movie trailer.

    It must be unsettling to witness Trump and Rodman run circles around those who obviously know better.

    random viking (6a54c2)

  110. The most useful service that this whole ordeal has provided is that the Left, collectiely, has beenarguing non-stop as to the futility of talk with intractable foes and intractable situation. for yeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeaaaaaaaaaaarrrrrrrrrrs, all we heard from those tools and fools is how al relationships must begin with talks and that it takes great courage to initiate discussions. I am talking all of my adult life, and then some. Talking and “dialogue” and “educating” are the sine qua non of life itself. My God, can you recall when the slightest of contacts were made with Fidel? There was a rapturous reaction by the usual Lefties.

    Now? Practical and verifiable and objective outcomes are demanded. No pre-judgments or praise based on intention.

    My friends, this is not a sea change…it is a DIMENSIONAL change. It cuts across the entirety of Progressivism.

    We simply must take note and throw it all right back in their repulsive faces.

    DJT is among the most truly inspired and useful idiots I’ve seen. He is an egotistic Gilligan who falls into outrageous good fortune. I am grateful for the unintentioned benefits we enjoy thanks to his administration.

    Ed from SFV (1b88c3)

  111. He looked into his soul

    It’s interesting that you take a dumbass quote from a president you did support and then act like Trump said something similar. Trump didn’t say any such thing.

    Trump saying he trusts Kim is just puffery, but it is a normal sort of puffery. Nothing about peering into souls.

    Anon Y. Mous (6cc438)

  112. “It must be unsettling to witness Trump and Rodman run circles around those who obviously know better.”

    Ya gotta admit after Clinton-N Korea and Obama-Iran, the bar was pretty low.

    harkin (e5c973)

  113. lol looks like bobby mueller’s sleazy and slithering fbi cowards are the dog that caught the car

    Special counsel Robert Mueller’s team is worried that Russian intelligence services will use a criminal case in Washington to gather information about its investigation and U.S. intelligence-gathering methods.

    In court papers filed Tuesday, prosecutors are asking a federal judge to impose limits on the information that can be shared by attorneys in the first criminal case directly related to Russian attempts to interfere in the 2016 U.S. presidential election.

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  114. Let’s hope the suffering of the NoKo people at least lessens and conditions improve for them, as a result.

    Colonel Haiku (105ec6)

  115. George W. Bush gazed deeply into Putin’s eyes like a dirty man-slut and then got a bunch of our tatters greased in Iraq over 9/11 when it was actually Obama’s Iran what helped Al Qaeda

    good times

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  116. The likes of a Madeline Albright would never stoop to the level of a fake movie trailer.

    Actually, she brought his dad (a big NBA fan) a basketball autographed by Michael Jordan.

    Is that gonna be the defense now? That Trump’s diplomacy is “only” as feckless as Madeleine Albright’s?

    “I believe that our meetings during these two days will help us to move further down the road of cooperation.” – Madeleine Albright, 2000

    “But they will be doing things, and I think he wants to do things.” – Donald Trump, 2018

    Got that? Kim will be doing things, and he wants to do things.

    I don’t know about you, but *I’ll* sleep easier tonight!

    Dave (445e97)

  117. Also, it’s not fair that Beldar is thrown into the middle of a scrum, mistreated and hoist by the short and curlies. Shameful.

    Colonel Haiku (105ec6)

  118. Is that gonna be the defense now? That Trump’s diplomacy is “only” as feckless as Madeleine Albright’s?

    But Trump’s diplomacy clearly doesn’t have the gravitas of an Albright.

    random viking (6a54c2)

  119. she’s about 15 stone or so, she hired social worker Sherman, as chief Asian regional negotiator,

    narciso (d1f714)

  120. Trump isnt as feckless as Clinton/Albright until he supplies a rogue regime with nukes while telling the world the move will prevent same.

    harkin (e5c973)

  121. dirty coward George W Bush who slaughtered tens of thousands of children in iraq and afghanistan for a handful of warm non-strategic poop has a sad :( about North Korean human rights today

    The George W. Bush Presidential Center is tweeting out coverage and analysis of human rights abuses in North Korea in the wake of President Trump’s historic summit with the country’s leader on Tuesday

    .

    compelling stuff thanks George

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  122. 15 stone eh?

    Better get a bigger bed.

    https://youtu.be/RvoEpp41gQs

    WARNING – once you see this, you cannot unsee it.

    harkin (e5c973)

  123. by that standard, Reagan would have been held liable for the excesses in counterinsurgency in central America, Pikachu, I recall when the democrats wanted to label Guatemala a terrorist regime,

    narciso (d1f714)

  124. nonono we use double standards

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  125. but the point is George W doesn’t have standing to lecture anybody about human rights abuses

    he did too many murder all up in it

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  126. Plus Boosh is on the hook for the Heroin epidemic as he never destroyed the poppy production in Afghanistan.

    mg (9e54f8)

  127. now the one they didn’t listen to, was Bolton, their was attention to other matters, which they mishandled poorly, they squandered the loyalty of the likes of scooter libby, in favor of Richard
    Armitage, yes, Pepperidge farm remembers,

    narciso (d1f714)

  128. he was such a feckless c-word if i may borrow the phrase samantha thanks you can have it back when i’m done

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  129. Most of all, we gave him a 180-degree turn away from the prior American posture, which was of one of “maximum pressure,” both verbal and economic, with a credible military threat around the edges. The biggest difficulty in using military means to effect regime change in North Korea is the lack of political support at home that would translate into a Congressional authorization for the use of force like the ones George H.W. Bush and George W. Bush secured in order to evict Saddam from Kuwait and then, ultimately, topple his government in Iraq. Now Trump’s completely dissipated all of the political capital he’d been handed by Kim’s nuclear and missile tests.

    1) What, exactly, convinces you that Trump could have gotten an AUMF as things stood? I’d have bet against.

    2) Now, however, should Kim continue with any kind of test, or even be spotted setting up for such, the political capital that you say was expended will return with interest. And at THAT point an AUMF would be a slam dunk.

    “We tried. We really tried. Going to war was not our choice, but he threw away his only chance.”

    Kevin M (752a26)

  130. Admittedly, should Kim return to testing, there are those who will echo the “Trump got fooled” line to the exclusion of the “take care of business” faction. It depends on whether you see this as an exercise in rope-giving.

    Kevin M (752a26)

  131. you have confidence in this possum congress, how nice for you, this was the default setting before an all out war,

    narciso (d1f714)

  132. Mr. Kim made a movie trailer for Mr. Trump:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uYMuJDajujc

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  133. the horses

    those magnificent steeds of freedom

    i cried at the horses

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  134. hey you tricker that’s the wrong movie

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  135. 133. Not from Mr. Kim’s POV, Mr. Feet.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  136. “We mishandled communication with Diamond and Silk for months,” Zuckerberg said in a response to Congress that was released on Monday, two months after his highly publicized congressional testimony. “Their frustration was understandable, and we apologized to them. The message they received on April 5, 2018 that characterized their Page as ‘dangerous’ was incorrect and not reflective of the way we seek to communicate with our community and the people who run Pages on our platform.”

    okey-dokey then

    zuckertwat capitalizes the words page and pages

    who knew?

    so it’s like some kind of term of art for him

    i never seen that before

    here’s
    a typical adweek article on facebook page stuff

    no caps

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  137. @129

    There won’t be more testing any time soon; it’s pretty clear that the timing of Kim’s charm offensive is due to testing being complete.

    Now, by raising expectations of dialog, his aim is to keep what he already has and force the US to look like the bad guy/aggressor if we push demands for disarmament.

    Dave (445e97)

  138. @ Kevin M, who asked (#128):

    1) What, exactly, convinces you that Trump could have gotten an AUMF as things stood? I’d have bet against.

    2) Now, however, should Kim continue with any kind of test, or even be spotted setting up for such, the political capital that you say was expended will return with interest. And at THAT point an AUMF would be a slam dunk.

    “We tried. We really tried. Going to war was not our choice, but he threw away his only chance.”

    I don’t claim to be convinced that Trump could; rather, as I’ve said here before (to you, I think), I was very pessimistic about whether any American POTUS could get one from the current Congress or any likely Congress, and especially pessimistic about whether Trump could. I nevertheless think that for any threat of use of force to be credible, that’s the necessary precondition, and I credit Kim with being smart enough to recognize that, which means he doesn’t have to take the threatened use of force from Trump seriously at all.

    We’ve been surprised by essentially all of the Nork’s nuclear and missile testing. We have no more access to North Korea now than before this summit — not even a tiny little bit. Kim has made no commitments whatsoever that he won’t resume testing either or both programs, though, and when he does, he’ll have done no worse than break the hollow promise of his commitment to denuclearization of the Korean Peninsula, which is the formulation in the “historic document.” And which, not at all coincidentally, is also the way the Norks always describe this issue, because they’re focusing on expelling the U.S. from the southern half of the peninsula, as they have been continuously since 1945.

    As for the “we tried” pitch: We didn’t. We gave them no deadlines. We got no agreement on anything. We gave up stuff. We got nothing beyond Kim’s “reaffirm[ation]” of empty promises the Norks have made repeatedly, most recently to Moon in April 2018, but before that to Obama, to Bush-43, and to Clinton. Kim won’t even concede that he’s broken any promises; he’ll continue to insist, as the Norks have for decades, that it’s the U.S. which is the hold-up to peace because we refuse to withdraw from South Korea.

    Contrast this summit, with its smiles and jokes and dramatic signing of a meaningless scrap of fluff, to how either Bush demonstrated their “exhaustion of lesser remedies” before the Gulf War or the Iraq War. Both of those presidents first gathered their political capital at home, without which they would have had zero credibility aboard. Both of those presidents maintained clear and unwavering requirements — withdrawal from Kuwait or allowance of unfettered inspections — that could leave no doubt regarding whether they’d been met. Both made a conspicuous show of serious preparation for use of military force, leaving no doubt whatsoever in anyone’s mind regarding America’s abilities to back up its threats. Both set realistic but short deadlines for compliance. And both used every possible means to expose Saddam’s villainy, his monstrous and murderous nature, his untrustworthiness, not only to the the American members of Congress who approved the use of force, but also to the American public and, indeed, the world. They damn sure didn’t wine and dine him at an all-expenses-paid summit!

    Trump has done none of those things that would be necessary steps to hold Kim seriously accountable for anything. He has instead treated Kim like a closer ally than he treated Canada on the previous day. I don’t think Trump can get an AUMF to bomb Canada either, but having just spoken of his trust in Kim, of Kim’s love for his people, of his talent, of his belief in Kim’s word, why should anyone believe Trump when he does the opposite of those things after the Norks surprise us with another nuclear explosion or missile launch?

    Beldar (fa637a)

  139. It’s past time for exercises in rope-giving.

    Beldar (fa637a)

  140. i rend these wretched garments

    i gnash my teeth (gnash gnash)

    fie on you trump

    fie on your summit

    fie on your dirty lies

    there’s no joy in pattericoville

    mighty Trump got bad advise

    he gave away the store you see

    look at these shelves so bare

    and kim oh kim Triumphant Kim!

    look on him and despair

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  141. It’s a process. If you look at things with too much of a political blogger gotcha game lens you really miss the picture on outside the border diplomacy and foreign relations and balance of power alignments. (I make same comment to my super rightist colleagues when they criticize Obama, Clinton, etc.) It is a different game than just domestic politics when you are looking at outside the border relations.

    Anonymous (3bf338)

  142. “Spending your life explaining “that’s not what I said” is not how I like to spend my time, and talking to people who serially misrepresent me is a waste of my time. I recommend not doing it.”

    YOU HEARD IT HERE FIRST, LADIES AND GENTLEMEN, PATTERICO IS *BASED* ON WHETHER OR NOT ANYONE SHOULD TALK TO JOURNALISTS.

    Tellurian (312848)

  143. “We’ve been surprised by essentially all of the Nork’s nuclear and missile testing. We have no more access to North Korea now than before this summit — not even a tiny little bit.”

    You literally have no knowledge basis for claiming any of this. Your ‘We’ is just you and every journalist trying to score brownie points with a GET TRUMP piece, except you’re not getting paid good money for it(are you?)

    “Kim has made no commitments whatsoever that he won’t resume testing either or both programs, though, and when he does, he’ll have done no worse than break the hollow promise of his commitment to denuclearization of the Korean Peninsula, which is the formulation in the “historic document.””

    Was anybody trying to seriously engage China and South Korea as full and often more equal partners in the endeavor previously?

    “And which, not at all coincidentally, is also the way the Norks always describe this issue, because they’re focusing on expelling the U.S. from the southern half of the peninsula, as they have been continuously since 1945.”

    IF THE US ABANDONS ANY OF ITS OVERSEAS POSTINGS AT ANY TIME FOR ANY REASON AFTER THE WAR IS OVER, THE TERRORISTS HAVE *WON* AND NO I’M NOT BEING PAID BY THREE-LETTER AGENCIES OR DEFENSE CONTRACTORS TO SAY THAT. THERE IS NO GOVERNMENT DUTY AS SACRED AS OCCUPYING OVERSEAS TERRITORY FOR DECADES FOR LITTLE TO NO PROFIT.

    Tellurian (312848)

  144. Well one could preposition forces on the border with Kuwait, or Saudi because saddam did not have a viable nuclear program or delivery program that option has been precluded.

    narciso (d1f714)

  145. “Contrast this summit, with its smiles and jokes and dramatic signing of a meaningless scrap of fluff, to how either Bush demonstrated their “exhaustion of lesser remedies” before the Gulf War or the Iraq War.”

    Consider also the electoral and fiscal consequences of these wars! WE SIGNED ALL THE RIGHT PAPERS, PAID OFF ALL THE RIGHT ALLIES, AND YELLED LOUDLY ENOUGH ABOUT ALL THE RIGHT INTERNATIONAL AGREEMENTS TO GET THESE WARS AND THAT SHOULD *IN NO WAY* REFLECT BADLY ON THE FACT THAT THESE WARS HAVE ACCOMPLISHED NEXT TO NOTHING FOR THE UNITED STATES OR THE STABILITY OF THE REGIONS.

    Tellurian (312848)

  146. Well let us just say the Gulf war, had more long term consequences than we first considered at the time.

    narciso (d1f714)

  147. Beldar @137

    That was remarkably long winded. You should take a page from the DeNero book on brevity and just type “F**K Trump!”. You used to be a neverTrumper but now you’ve gone full blown #resist. I guess Conquest rings true once again: “Any organization not explicitly right wing sooner or later becomes left wing.” Obviously it holds true for groups like neverTrumpers and individuals too, Beldar.

    You went from being with the group of idiots who would rather lose to Hillary with Cruz than win the White House with Trump to a full blown leftist. Wow! What a journey we witnessed. Or is it a fall?

    You’re on a fast race to the bottom when you’re allies are DeNero, Griffin, Samantha Bee and Stephen Colbert and you think that crowd is better than Trump and even worse better than the average guy who supports Trump.
    https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-XnHIVCOL65c/WyAgPaRB1aI/AAAAAAABrb8/GbWKFSfHgxEXDX5IOteEYTatEe9juHvXwCLcBGAs/s1600/tumblr_p6fe12wWUV1wmj1gwo1_500.jpg

    Rev.Hoagie (c5d6cf)

  148. Fast moving brush fire endangers expensive homes on Beverly Crest.

    ropelight (511571)

  149. How have you been hoagie,

    narciso (d1f714)

  150. Hoagie, every single word in your #146 is an attack on me, ending with your preposterous fantasy of what you think I’m thinking.

    Defend Trump if you can. When you attack me instead, everyone is entitled to presume that’s because you can’t or won’t defend Trump.

    Beldar (fa637a)

  151. there’s been a terrible fire near Durango and they’re not making much progress

    this is why we need giant fire suppressor robots

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  152. Durango, Colorado? I have an old friend there.

    ropelight (511571)

  153. 149… I dig your interpretation of where Beldar is coming from the most, Hoagie. Keep on teh good foot.

    Colonel Haiku (3ad005)

  154. Yep, Durango, Colorado. I clicked the link. Thanks for the info.

    ropelight (511571)

  155. lovely place i hope they catch a break soon

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  156. Beldar attacked the hell out of me.

    ropelight (511571)

  157. They run and lay down with coyotes, there will be fleas… Yuge amounts of fleas. It’s very sad.

    Colonel Haiku (3ad005)

  158. 155… it’s his nature…

    Colonel Haiku (3ad005)

  159. No charge for attacking

    mg (9e54f8)

  160. Pro bonehead.

    Colonel Haiku (3ad005)

  161. Aloha Colonel.

    mg (9e54f8)

  162. Hey, mg… haole man!

    Colonel Haiku (3ad005)

  163. Its a spirited argument. Now one must consider the unseeuous turn of phrase between 1990 and 2002 and now:

    https://www.commentarymagazine.com/politics-ideas/qatar-al-jazeera-columbia-journalism-review/

    narciso (d1f714)

  164. #158, Beldar wasn’t always like that, I admired him, he was kind, informed, and generous to other commenters, to me in fact. He changed during the GOP Primaries. I wish him well and look forward to when he regains his balance.

    ropelight (511571)

  165. It seems to me that neither Trump nor Kim has given much of anything away at this point. The US canceled some war games with SK and Kim released 3 Americans and is returning some SK soldiers’ remains.

    David in Cal (0d5a1d)

  166. Kim has also stopped his rocket tests. He quit those before Trump even gave him the meeting.

    Anon Y. Mous (6cc438)

  167. Make an argument if you’ve got one, ropelight. If not, you’re welcome to keep talking about me.

    Beldar (fa637a)

  168. draining the swamp i love you President Trump you’re my favorite!

    A senior career Department of Justice (DOJ) official has resigned, one week after the Trump administration made a controversial announcement that it would argue key parts of ObamaCare are unconstitutional.

    A DOJ official confirmed to The Hill that Joel McElvain resigned and his last day is July 6, but declined to comment on whether the resignation was due to last week’s announcement.

    buh-bye Joel i bet you gain 20 pounds in the next two weeks

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  169. @ Anon Y. Mous (#165): Yes, that’s true.

    We think we know, from seismic results and from the Nork’s public statement and publicity-only (no scientists) demonstration that he can’t resume nuclear testing in the underground facility the Norks have used for their prior testing. We likewise know, from the characteristics of his last rocket test, that it represented a huge leap forward in range and the technology necessary to achieve that. What he’s not yet demonstrated, and the tech people speculate that he’s still some time from being able to demonstrate, is miniaturization of his bombs and their control equipment sufficient to allow them to ride his latest rocket, in which event we’d not expect to see either rocket or nuclear testing for some time regardless of anything Trump has done or refrained from doing.

    Do you claim to know whether he has a rocket ready to test again? I.e., is his non-testing actually the result of him refraining from doing something he otherwise would be capable of doing? Or is it the result of his scientists having nothing new to test that would justify either the expense or diplomatic push-back from so doing? I respectfully submit that the evidence is consistent with either hypothesis, and that the more persuasive evidence suggests they have nothing yet that they’re ready to test.

    Regardless, can we agree that whether as a result of this summit or otherwise, he’s made no clear commitment to further refrain, when and if he’s able to resume either nuclear or rocket testing? And can we likewise agree that he and his father have played us over and over and over again with false promises, even when they have made promises (which this time, they have not)?

    Or do you believe, as Trump suggested last night, that Kim probably set about voluntarily abolishing his nuclear program as soon as he got off the plane home yesterday?

    Beldar (fa637a)

  170. F**k Trump? When was the last time anybody would do that for less than $130,000? And that was just the downpayment.

    nk (dbc370)

  171. @ David in Cal: It does not remain to be seen whether Trump will give the Norks the grand propaganda coup of a summit with the POTUS. That happened yesterday and the world was watching.

    It does not remain to be seen whether Trump will give Kim a signed, written assurance of “security guarantees.” That happened yesterday.

    It does not remain to be seen whether the Chinese would maintain such degree of cooperation with our sanctions regime as they briefly did, before Trump began engaging Kim directly. They’ve backslid, as even Trump admitted, and the sanctions are already loosening. All talk of “maximum pressure” has been explicitly discarded. The only thing that remains to be seen is whether the sanctions will be made partly or completely irrelevant; my bet is on the latter, but that will indeed require time to tell.

    Beldar (fa637a)

  172. he can put his little bombs on a boat and get within nuking distance of an aircraft carrier BOOM bye bye aircraft carrier that’s for sure

    kind of a game-changer there huh

    that’s what obama did

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  173. obama went to harvard btw

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  174. Yes but crazy Larry tribe was his chief proctor, and that was when he remarkedly more sane, rhan he currently displays

    narciso (d1f714)

  175. @Beldar

    My comment was so short; suggest you read it again. I didn’t mention nukes. I referred to rockets. Or missiles, if you prefer. Kim wasn’t launching nukes over Japan, but he was sending missiles over their territory. That has stopped.

    Maybe you think it’s a big coincidence. Trump threatens tariffs against China. And, actually starts implementing some. Kim stops acting bellicose. Kim lobbies the South for meeting. Trump stops needling him, starts giving him compliments. There is a meeting.

    Just because the leaks to the NYT don’t spell it out, you have a head on your shoulders. Figure it out.

    Anon Y. Mous (6cc438)

  176. Broken promises and past behavior should be taken into account. We’ll have to wait see whether anything becomes of this. But I must say it has been enjoyable watching media pundit heads exploding as a result. Notice that none of these clowns has a suggestion on how to resolve the problem.

    And the US didn’t even have to ply the NoKos with cash to get them to the table. That’s a first.

    Colonel Haiku (3ad005)

  177. #166, Beldar, I like you and I don’t want to argue with you. Debating our differences lately usually ends with you calling me a ‘lickspittle.’

    Actually, my observation at #163 is an attemp to explain the drastic change in the way your comments have gotten increasingly hostile, and too often personally resentful.

    You’re better than that.

    ropelight (511571)

  178. The Chinese got Kim to the table. He literally got there on a Chinese jet. They delivered him.

    Anon Y. Mous (6cc438)

  179. off-topic: Tim Draper’s three Californias plan qualified for the ballot with a projected 419,362 valid signatures out of a required 365,880.

    We’re going to vote on whether or not to dissolve the state. (Of course it’s not binding unless Congress consents).

    aphrael (e0cdc9)

  180. @ Anon Y. Mous: You’re correct that your comment at #165 was about rockets. I read it carefully and understood it to refer only to rockets. My reply, however, was about rockets and nukes both. You can ignore the part about nukes if it pleases you. I read your comment at #174 as well. The inference that I take it you’re asking me to make is that Kim’s failure to continue testing rockets is due to influence from the Chinese, which you further suggest is due to tariffs Trump threatened and started implementing. That is also consistent with the evidence, I will readily agree.

    And these are not mutually exclusive alternatives: There may be multiple reasons to explain why Kim hasn’t recently tested any more long-range rockets, any one of which might have been sufficient on its own.

    Even if Chinese pressure on the Norks in response to tariffs proposed and actually begun to be implemented by Trump were the sole explanation, however:

    How does that make it a good idea to give Kim this propaganda coup? These assurances of security guarantees? Do you think having this summit was a good idea? Do you think we got something of value equal to or greater than that which we gave up?

    Beldar (fa637a)

  181. Interesting aphrael, now will this drive more California integrists to the polls than secessioniats

    narciso (d1f714)


  182. You’re better than that.
    ropelight


    No ropelight, he isn’t.


    177.The Chinese got Kim to the table. He literally got there on a Chinese jet. They delivered him.
    Anon Y. Mous

    No he wasn’t. He f;ew there on a jet built in China but a Bigazz Cadillac built in America literally “delivered him”. That said, exactly what has the mode of transportation have to do with it?

    Rev.Hoagie (c5d6cf)

  183. @ Anon Y. Mous: Do you think Trump is right to trust Kim?

    Beldar (fa637a)

  184. Mr. Schneider’s out of jail so that’s good for America

    be even better if his worthless suck-ass ex-wife got a job though

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  185. Well we know what Chloe and lana had to resort to, when smallville wee canceled.

    narciso (d1f714)

  186. poor kids

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  187. How does that make it a good idea to give Kim this propaganda coup? These assurances of security guarantees? Do you think having this summit was a good idea? Do you think we got something of value equal to or greater than that which we gave up?

    The Chinese don’t want to capitulate publicly. They continue the charade that Kim is not their vassal. To keep the charade going, Kim has to have his own reasons to back down. So, he gets a meeting with Trump. The possibility of a McDonald’s is bandied about.

    All harmless. If it results in a cessation of hostilities on the Korean peninsula, well worth it.

    This stuff that you and Patterico fret about, the appearance of Trump meeting with a dictator. All silly nonsense. Nixon met with Mao. That guy killed more people then Kim could ever imagine in his wildest dreams. Yet, Nixon met with him. Hell, Nixon even went to him.

    Do you think Trump is right to trust Kim?

    I think that it is no problem for Trump to say that publicly. I would hope that he doesn’t really trust him, but I doubt he does.

    Look at your own behavior. When someone here says something uncomplimentary about you, you get annoyed. Offended. If those commenters who do that were trying to make some kind of deal with you, that would be a pretty stupid way to go about it. Instead, publicly at least, those that want to come to some arrangement with you would be further ahead to do some harmless fluffing. Compliment you on your well-reasoned prose, etc.

    Anon Y. Mous (6cc438)

  188. At least Shelly Levene got Bruce and Harriett Nyborg to sign a contract and write him a (hot) check to go along with it. Shelley didn’t even get steak knives in the end; I think he was headed for indictment, actually.

    Beldar (fa637a)

  189. @ Anon Y. Mous: Nixon went to China to fundamentally turn on its side the previous cold war dynamic between the U.S. and the Soviet Union. He did so only after Kissenger had already buttoned that down through secret negotiations that took well over a year; it was a fait accompli which Nixon and Mao jointly presented to Breshnev, and it had spectacular and generally beneficial changes on world history going forward. Do you want to compare yesterday’s farce to that, really?

    Your unsolicited relationship advice directed to me personally is duly noted. Further such advice is not solicited, but you are your own master.

    Beldar (fa637a)

  190. 179. Beldar (fa637a) — 6/12/2018 @ 6:51 pm

    Even if Chinese pressure on the Norks in response to tariffs proposed and actually begun to be implemented by Trump were the sole explanation,

    I think it was more the threat of the use of force, which was quite real even without a Congressional resolution. (then when Trump indicated he didn’t want to shut down ZTE, China thought there was no real threat – then Trump indicated he thought China was responsible and was playing games, and China decided that they didn’t want to do that, so they went back to Plan B.

    however:

    How does that make it a good idea to give Kim this propaganda coup? These assurances of security guarantees? Do you think having this summit was a good idea?

    I think Trump thought he could take advantage of an opportunity, and he could sell Kim on the idea of peaceful co-existence without Kim going about making threats.

    The summit – which Trump actually did his best to play up, beyond what others were doing – and the security guarantees was to encourage Kim Jong Un to continue along this path. Trump wants lots of meetings. Now we’ll see how much time he gives Kim for progress.

    Do you think we got something of value equal to or greater than that which we gave up?

    The other point of view is, what did we lose? Momentum?

    I don’t know. At some point you have to give your adversary an opportunity to at least pretend to cave in. trump was rushing Kim by agreeing to the meeting. And I think took him by surprise.

    Of course this could resemble the suspension of testing that the soviet Union did around 1960.

    Sammy Finkelman (a3d36d)

  191. Beldar, you know you’re in trouble when, for the most part, you find me agreeing w/you.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  192. Do you want to compare yesterday’s farce to that, really?

    As I thought I made clear in my comment, I think the whole thing about worrying about the appearance of meeting with a dictator is silly. But, your point seems to be that we should have that principle most of the time, but then we should sacrifice our principles if we get a really good deal. Is that what you meant to say?

    Your unsolicited relationship advice directed to me personally is duly noted. Further such advice is not solicited, but you are your own master.

    That’s dishonest. No other way to interpret it. I was offering an example of how others should go about trying to win you over, so even if you thought I was offering advice rather than giving an example, the target of the “advice” would have been others, not you.

    Anon Y. Mous (6cc438)

  193. 187… inside foosball.

    Colonel Haiku (3ad005)

  194. When a person such as Dana Bash takes the same position you are, it should be time to take time to take stock of what you’ve morphed into.

    Colonel Haiku (3ad005)

  195. For a less useless and mendacious interpretation, look no further than John T. Reed, who’s a libertarian actually worth listening to:

    https://johntreed.com/blogs/john-t-reed-s-news-blog/thoughts-on-the-kim-trump-summit-and-general-approach-of-each

    “I hope the summit leads to substantive elimination of the threat of NK nukes and missiles. It had not yet from what I have heard. Sounds like each side gave the other the “sleeves off its vest.” That is, they gave up stuff that matters little to them.

    I saw nothing wrong, but nothing substantive and good either, other than the general tenor of the two sides.

    It is possible that Kim has decided to take a new direction from what is father and grandfather did. Indeed, he seems to have said that. Consider Kim’s perspective if he does that.

    He was somewhat afraid to leave NK for this trip and hurried back when it was over. Why? A coup. His father and grandfather created a cadre with a certain horrendous mindset. That mindset does not allow a change from the Stalinist path chosen by Kim’s two predecessors.

    I am trained and experienced in leading men in tough situations: Army soldiers including in a combat zone, football and baseball players, tenants in residential and non-residential buildings. It is like lion taming. To paraphrase Obama, “I have a whip and a chair and I’m going to use them.”

    Just before the summit, Kim fired three of his top generals—no doubt an anti-coup move. Apparently, it worked. Maybe his murder of his half brother recently in Malaysia was more of what he thought was necessary to keep his military in line as he made radical changes in the nation’s path.

    That does not excuse murder, but it may be that murder is the minimum motivational technique in that country after 65 years of his father and grandfather.”

    Tellurian (312848)

  196. Recall Kissinger used two back channels to China, the first is Pakistan which is,part of the reason we find ourselves here, China provided nuclear technology, to the Pakistan program, this was in addition to assistant Khan network.

    narciso (560bda)

  197. What could help is if he believes there is maybe some positive interest on the part of the United States in his staying in power – which could happen if he agreed to inform the U.S. about China.

    crazy @ 105:

    Sammy I think there’s a fair chance that Pompeo’s visits may have set that in motion.

    I don’t know who the sources for this really are, but there is some talk in China about the idea of North Korea switching sides (which I kind of find impossible – on n all out basis anyway)

    https://www.nytimes.com/2018/06/10/world/asia/trump-kim-korea-china.html

    Sammy Finkelman (a3d36d)

  198. The other was ceacescus Romania, in this case the back channel was south Koreans, the front channel was japan.

    narciso (560bda)

  199. Some analysts ask whether the United States could now flip North Korea to its side and away from China.

    Really?

    What is China actually worried about>

    Sammy Finkelman (a3d36d)

  200. Ceacescu is one dictator who missed his chance to escape – that was not the case ith Saddam hssein and qaddafi, because they didn’t face a coup.

    Bashar Assad is someone who also may not escape, if he stays too close to Iran, becase Israel will just simply target him after all this time if war breaks out, and Israel won’t wait for iran to get ready.

    Sammy Finkelman (a3d36d)

  201. When a person such as Dana Bash takes the same position you are, it should be time to take time to take stock of what you’ve morphed into.

    If Dana Bash said peoplle should love their children, Haiku would refuse to love his children to own the libs.

    Patterico (0240e5)

  202. Navarro apologizes for harsh comment about Canada PM

    http://www.dailyherald.com/article/20180612/news/306129924

    WASHINGTON — President Donald Trump’s trade adviser Peter Navarro has apologized for having said there is “a special place in hell” for Canadian Prime Minister Justin Trudeau. Navarro offered the apology at a Wall Street Journal conference Tuesday, the Journal’s Gerald Seib tweets.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  203. Now north Korea is a proxy not a puppet regime like Venezuela is of China, and the Taliban emirate was of pakistan.

    narciso (560bda)

  204. Policy opinions are different than personal ones

    http://donsurber.blogspot.com/2018/06/nyt-columnist-attacks-trump-for

    narciso (560bda)

  205. Tellurian (312848) — 6/12/2018 @ 7:30 pm

    Maybe his murder of his half brother recently in Malaysia was more of what he thought was necessary to keep his military in line

    No, that was to prevent China from substituting another dictator, without greatly altering the system, or changing too many things. The half brother wss not himself interested in power, but he might have been picked by China.

    It’s 65 years since the end of the Korean war – it’s 70 years since the start of the regime, or maybe really 73.

    Sammy Finkelman (a3d36d)

  206. DJT is on quite the roll. A GOPe, Mark Sanford of South Carolina, just lost his seat to a DJT-backed insurgent. Katie Arrington (hmmm. the sexist DJT endorsed a woman to beat a man?!) should have little trouble winning the election in a safe GOP district.

    The more of these tools who get primaried, the better.

    Ed from SFV (1b88c3)

  207. Trump would crow a win if Kim let McDonald’s open a franchise aboard the USS Pueblo. A key to the food locker definitely exists, eh, Captain, sir?!

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  208. @210. Told to take a hike along the Appalachian Trail of tears, eh… no loss.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  209. If Dana Bash said peoplle should love their children, Haiku would refuse to love his children to own the libs.

    Patterico (0240e5) — 6/12/2018 @ 7:45 pm

    Yeah… but that’s not what she said. She dances in teh same conga line as a few folks around here.

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  210. A small example of the Jensen type down here, an Excon who had served time for arson, shot an officer, who went to serve a warrant in the face, he held the police at bay, till we discover he had killed his four children

    narciso (560bda)

  211. Katie Arrington (hmmm. the sexist DJT endorsed a woman to beat a man?!)

    With a rolled-up magazine, of course.

    “Kinky!” – Gov. Hedley Lamarr [Harvey Korman] ‘Blazing Saddles’ 1974

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  212. 106.It was a delightful summit. Everyone who was actually there says so.

    The Road To Singapore is in the can, Mr. Feet. Next summit, Casablanca: The Road To Morocco.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  213. If we judge people by who agrees with them, then remember that white supremacists support Trump.

    DRJ (15874d)

  214. He killed his four children and his wife, no we have to conclude there is just evil in the world, he was probably on early release because of our Possom court. Both stare and us supreme

    narciso (560bda)

  215. Here’s an NYT story I can get behind. Looks like Sanford is toast. Another one bites the dust.

    https://www.nytimes.com/elections/results/south-carolina-house-district-1-primary-election

    Anon Y. Mous (6cc438)

  216. Beldar — I don’t think the “grand propaganda coup of a summit with the POTUS” is such a big deal. If NK doesn’t move forward to denuclearize and the US sanctions remain in place, the fact the Kim once had summit with the President will mean less and less IMHO.

    David in Cal (0d5a1d)

  217. We were constrained by the limits of moon jae in,

    narciso (560bda)

  218. “170. It does not remain to be seen whether Trump will give the Norks the grand propaganda coup of a summit with the POTUS.”

    Just what did Kim gain from this “grand propaganda coup”? He’ll easily win his next election?

    You’ve gone around the bend.

    ” the sanctions are already loosening. All talk of “maximum pressure” has been explicitly discarded”
    Really? Because what I heard Trump say about a dozen times in the presser and the Q&A session aferwards was that the pressure will stay in place until we are satisfied with the denuke progress. Pompeo said the same thing.
    But what do those guys know, eh?

    “Do you think Trump is right to trust Kim?”
    When did he say he trusted Kim? What I have heard his say is that the thinks Kim is serious & sincere. Then he always says “We’ll see.”

    Now we have two more markers to judge Kim by, that we didn’t have before. Destroying his rocket motor testing facility and returning remains of US soldiers.
    NEITHER of these were ever mentioned before, as far as I know.
    BOTH of them are actions that Kim can do very quickly.

    Y’know, after all the times you never-trumpers have been wrong in your predictions, I’d think that you would have learned something. Guess not.

    fred-2 (ce04f3)

  219. #218, DRJ, when media thugs tried to embarrass Ronald Reagan with the same smear you linked, he responded by pointing out that although racists might support him – he didn’t support them.

    Besides we judge people on who they agree with, not on who agrees with them.

    ropelight (511571)

  220. Stephanopoulos asked how Trump could trust the brutal dictator.

    “I do trust him, yeah,” Trump said. “Maybe in a year you’ll be interviewing and I’ll say I made a mistake. It’s possible. We’re dealing at a high level, a lot of things can change a lot of things are possible.”

    https://abcnews.go.com/US/exclusive-trust-trump-opens-kim-historic-summit/story?id=55815265

    Anon Y. Mous (6cc438)

  221. If Kim Jong un could read a few comments here about Trump’s shortcomings, it’s likely he’d be wondering if he could trust Trump.

    ropelight (511571)

  222. Btw mutluk disco, may a yak find contentment in your hindquarters, Ludlow is recovering well re his wife

    narciso (560bda)

  223. It’s not Trump personally that Kim has to worry about. It’s whether or not the Senate will ratify the deal. I don’t know if there are 67 Senators who will back Trump, no matter what the details of the deal are.

    Anon Y. Mous (6cc438)

  224. I know this is late but do you really want to go to war?

    2) Now, however, should Kim continue with any kind of test, or even be spotted setting up for such, the political capital that you say was expended will return with interest. And at THAT point an AUMF would be a slam dunk.

    “We tried. We really tried. Going to war was not our choice, but he threw away his only chance.”

    Kevin M (752a26) — 6/12/2018 @ 4:01 pm

    Really? This is a positive for you?
    What do you want? Not stupid, simplictic talking points that just will not happen. What?
    Do you want to push an opponent to the corner and claim it’s their fault?
    And then what?
    Even when they lose it’s a terrible calamity.
    Do you not get that?
    What you really think (or want) to happen when if he breaks the agreement, which he likely will?

    It’s really easy to be a keyboard warrior, but we’ve never actually been run by one.. I, for one, woulfd much prefer a slow and mesured approach.
    I’m worried. I think the summit was not necessarlily a mistake but it cannot be set up as a do or die secenerio. That they must capitulate or it’s “over”.
    That is really calivier with thousands or tens of thousands of lives.

    Doubter4444 (d5f11d)

  225. Trump was constrained by what moon jae In, was willing to accept.

    narciso (560bda)

  226. @228. A narc sniffs covfefe while java brews and rugs lies low as cover worse for crime well spent.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  227. 227.If Kim Jong un could read a few comments here about Trump’s shortcomings, it’s likely he’d be wondering if he could trust Trump.

    Trust, but verify: he screwed Iran, the TPP, his allies and a porn star.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  228. Mr Doubter —

    No one wants to go to war, but when war is better than the alternatives (see Britain, 1937) then “peace in out rime” is far crueler than any war could be.

    I have said this until I’m blue in the face — and people have been saying it since the 90’s — that the world cannot tolerate countries that sign the nuclear non-proliferation treaty (a required step before they can get nuclear reactors) and then use those reactors they are given to violate the treaty. Every country except 3 (Israel, Pakistan and India) signed the thing. Those 3 did not because they wanted to develop weapons honestly.

    If NK can do it, then Iran can do it, then Saudi Arabia and Argentina and Germany and Poland and Japan and South Korea and .. and .. and.

    How much hope do YOU hold for a world with 30 nuclear powers? Sometimes war is the better option.

    Kevin M (752a26)

  229. For those of you that think that Trump hasn’t thought this out, watch this two minute video from TWENTY YEARS AGO, where he says he do exactly what he’s doing now, but carry a big stick.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sQUaQo2j42Y

    Kevin M (752a26)

  230. Beldar, as you may have noticed, I’m a hawk here. I have been since Bill Clinton was considering responding to Kim Jong Il. But I despair of Trump getting an AUMF on his own, and if he tried to go this on his own and nukes got used he’d be impeached unanimously. But as he said in that video, just following Carter’s wrecking of Korean policy, better now than later. A world with rampant proliferation is a doomed one.

    Kevin M (752a26)

  231. I saw that video before the election. My question then, as now, is what he means by “negotiate like crazy.” What he did yesterday was negotiating as if he were crazy: We got nothing, we gave up a lot.

    There is no support for the claim that Trump is a master dealmaker except for Trump’s claim that he’s a master dealmaker. Even the “joint statement” he came home with is a completely one-sided affair.

    Beldar (fa637a)

  232. @235.For those of you that think that Trump hasn’t thought this out, watch this two minute video from TWENTY YEARS AGO, where he says he do exactly what he’s doing now, but carry a big stick.

    Pfft. Jaysus… For those of you that know that Trump indeed hasn’t thought this out, watch this video from TWENTY FOUR HOURS AGO… but carry a big IPad:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A838gS8nwas&feature=youtu.be

    Golly!! What will Kim find out there, doctor?

    “His Destiny.” – Dr. Zaius [Maurice Evans] ‘Planet of the Apes’ 1968

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  233. @ Anon Y. Mous (#193): Then that’s the relationship advice that didn’t exist, I guess. Again, I recognized that you were also advising others as to how they might do something which they clearly have no interest in doing. But I also thought that you were finding fault with my becoming annoyed and offended. If you didn’t intend that, I thank you for the clarification.

    I haven’t argued that giving Kim the international status and recognition Trump just gave him was a bad idea as a matter of principle. If you believe you’ve seen me argue otherwise, please direct me to that comment. Rather, I readily acknowledge that America has not only dealt with gangster regimes, but that indeed we’ve been their military allies, going back to bribes paid to Barbary pirates. Accordingly, I have instead argued that Trump gave this international status and recognition to Kim without getting anything at all in return for it of commensurate value, as viewed from the perspective of the United States.

    Something of commensurate value might have been, for example, an unequivocal public recognition by Kim, in writing and on camera, that his government is committed to complete, verifiable, irreversible nuclear disarmament on the Libya model (as conducted by the Bush administration in conjunction with our allies and international inspectors; I do not include in this the Obama coda, in which we led from behind by supporting France and Britain in deposing him).

    In none of the negotiations between the U.S. and the North Koreans under Clinton, Bush-43, or Obama did we ever forfeit this extremely valuable negotiating chip; nor should Trump have. Now that chip is lost, forever, in exchange for a set of empty and unenforceable promises identical to those which the Norks have made and broken before, repeatedly, in their dealings with those prior presidents.

    You’ll recall that among the questions I asked you, politely and non-rhetorically, was one about how you value what we got and what we gave up. I’m still interested in your answer, which I don’t think you’ve given, unless I missed it.

    Beldar (fa637a)

  234. @ David in Cal (#221): First off, thanks for a conversation in which you’re disagreeing with me in a civil way but you’ve not tried to make me the issue. How very, very refreshing today!

    You wrote:

    I don’t think the “grand propaganda coup of a summit with the POTUS” is such a big deal. If NK doesn’t move forward to denuclearize and the US sanctions remain in place, the fact the Kim once had summit with the President will mean less and less IMHO.

    I hope you’re right, and that’s certainly among the plausible scenarios.

    But last night, for the first night in his life, Kim Jong-un did something neither his father or grandfather ever did: He slept with a written assurance in his chubby little hands, signed by a President of the United States in his official capacity as head of state for our government, promising him future guarantees of security. He’s gotten gratis from Trump a non-regime-change promise roughly equivalent to what JFK gave Castro in 1962 to induce the Russians to remove their missiles from Cuba.

    Not only did Kim sleep with that assurance in hand, every single rival or opponent or doubter within his regime surely knows he has it.

    Contrary to a spectacularly naive argument made here yesterday, Kim does not sit easy on this throne. That he’s killed so many more family members and members of the elites than either his father or grandfather is because he’s previously been less secure in his office than either of them was.

    From who else but us and potential internal dissenters did he need security assurances from? Is Moon going to suddenly declare war on him? Abe? Putin?

    I very much fear that Trump has irrevocably transformed not only Kim’s standing in the international community, but his standing within North Korea, regardless of whether we ever formalize, much less make good upon, Trump’s written promises of security assurances in the joint statement yesterday (to go along with whatever verbal assurances surely accompanied them).

    Beldar (fa637a)

  235. Let me try that sentence again:

    From who else but us and potential internal dissenters did Kim need security assurances to protect himself?

    Beldar (fa637a)

  236. Next thing you know Lawyers will be charging by the paragraph.

    mg (9e54f8)

  237. If Dana Bash said peoplle should love their children, Haiku would refuse to love his children to own the libs.

    Patterico (0240e5) — 6/12/2018 @ 7:45 pm

    Some people here just like setting up strawmen rather than dealing with those who disagree on the substance.

    shipwreckedcrew (56b591)


  238. 218.If we judge people by who agrees with them, then remember that white supremacists support Trump.
    DRJ (15874d) — 6/12/2018 @ 8:14 pm


    Hahahaha. But “if” we judge people by who disagrees with them, then remember leftists, democrats, communists, socialists, Antifa Nazi’s, moslem terrorists, Black Lives Matter racists, the media, Hollywood, Robert DeNero, Kathy Griffin, Samantha Bee, Stephen Colbert, Beldar and DRJ don’t support Trump. Funny thing is DRJ, Trump does not get to pick those who support him but YOU do get to pick the type of people you agree with. You lose.

    Oddly, seems you support the side that hates America while I support the side that wants to Make America Great Again after the above mentioned scum ruined her.

    Back in the day when the president was a moslem born, communist reared, half a fag pinko there wasn’t half the pissing moaning and griping you muster about Trump just because he banged a couple whores and made a comment about “grabbing pussy”. But now that you lawyers have gone full bore leftist it’s like reading HuffPo any more. I have to scan the commenters on the right before clicking in because if I don’t see a ropelight, narcso, Sammy, Colonel or a few others it’s not worth my time to read the rant. I’ve read them before and they haven’t matured with age.

    Rev.Hoagie (c5d6cf)

  239. if all this does is even temporarily knock North Korea out of cahoots with Obama’s persian terror-buddies then it was a masterstroke

    it’s time people started taking nuclear proliferation seriously

    thank you President Trump

    thank you for leading the way!

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  240. I can see ConDave playing the role of the execrable Nicole Wallace, ASPCA as Brian Williams and Beldar as teh Beave… er, Rachel Madcow…

    “On Monday night, MSNBC assembled a panel of spiteful Trump critics to throw a wet blanket over the summit. The doves turned into hawks and spent much of the evening trying to peck at Trump. Most of the people on the panel are apologists for this or that communist thug—just go back and look at MSNBC’s fawning coverage of Fidel Castro’s death—but on Monday night they played hardliners. Rachel Maddow, furrowing her brow as usual, objected to Trump even holding a summit. She has finally found a communist leader she thinks America should ostracize. When Obama met with the Castro brothers, she burbled with enthusiasm. But she covered this moment of historic diplomacy like a funeral, shuddering at the thought of North Korea joining the “community” of nations.

    MSNBC saw the summit as just one more occasion for obsessive anti-Trump fault-finding. The disgraced Brian Williams is still hanging around for some reason and looked like he wanted to give the summit the kind of newsy, anchormanish treatment of old, but he couldn’t pull it off in the company of jabbering Trump haters, for whom wild opining is all that counts. Plus, Williams is too reduced a figure for the cocksure Maddow to give any equal time. But Williams’s ego still asserts itself from time to time. On Monday night he fed it by asking one of the sham historians on the panel an arcane, look-at-what-I-know style question about the USS Pueblo, a ship the North Koreans captured in 1968.

    The utterly contemptible Nicole Wallace, whose smugness and nastiness are beyond caricature, drove much of the shrill coverage. She was at her whiny, know-it-all worst, droning on about Trump’s lack of “preparation” and so forth. But Trump seemed perfectly at ease, getting a stiff Kim Jong Un to crack a smile. Trump had said it would only take “a minute” for him to sense if the relationship between the two countries could improve. By that measure, the summit appeared to start promisingly. Normally such friendly gestures between an American leader and an adversary would warm the hearts of liberals. Not this time. The MSNBC panel looked on coldly and muttered suspiciously about Trump’s body language.”

    https://spectator.org/scoring-the-summit/

    Colonel Haiku (3ad005)

  241. is it more likely that the purged figures, were more the war party, consider lin piao, with mao, how kruschev fell to Brezhnev, the stolid muzhik just two years later, I think that’s likely, or gorbachev and his rivals in the central committee,

    narciso (d1f714)

  242. nevertrump can whine and whine about Kim being elevated by this summit

    but there’s an irony here

    President Trump was elevated too!

    He projected self-assurance and an effortless command of the proceedings: one can’t recall a bozo princeling like George W. Bush looking ever quite this presidential.

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  243. Nicolle Wallace being Rachel mcadams in mean girls,

    narciso (d1f714)

  244. Trump tweet today….. “Just landed – a long trip, but everybody can now feel much safer than the day I took office. There is no longer a Nuclear Threat from North Korea. Meeting with Kim Jong Un was an interesting and very positive experience. North Korea has great potential for the future!”

    The President just said it. THERE IS NO LONGER A NUCLEAR THREAT FROM NORTH KOREA.

    C’mon now. Seriously? What is wrong with that guy? Of all people, he has to be the one with his finger next to the nuclear button?

    And what is wrong with his supporters? This is beyond stupid. Beyond crazy.

    God help us.

    noel (b4d580)

  245. Beldar:

    I want to understand your thinking. Do you really think the deal with Trump increases Kim’s internal security? If I understand the dynamics in that country correctly, Kim takes a risk every time he ventures outside its borders.

    I guess I feel like Trump doesn’t care if the NoKo strong man is Kim or some other strong man, and, if he felt like he could put some other despot on the throne who might be more willing to deal in enough good faith that Trump could declare victory, he would do that.

    If we go into Trump’s dark secret heart, we’d find Trump doesn’t like Korea. They don’t trade fair, and what are we doing subsidizing their industry with our soldiers?

    Appalled (96665e)

  246. noel:

    Do you think Trump believes everything he tweets? Or that Kim can become Rocket Man again in a New York minute if he does something to betray Trump’s overhyped scrap of paper?

    Appalled (96665e)

  247. Noel – what Trump said was vastly premature and unwise – full stop.

    But when opponents of Trump and nevertrumpers write:

    -Of all people, he has to be the one with his finger next to the nuclear button?

    -what is wrong with his supporters?

    -This is beyond stupid.

    -Beyond crazy.

    -God help us.

    It is hard to take them seriously – when all one does is run around with their hair on fire every time the president says something, predictably, “over-the-top”

    bendover (8f3556)

  248. He loves Putin and Kim and slams our allies. This one guy controls the very existence of mankind. One guy. And this is who we have entrusted with that awesome power? He is obviously not in touch with reality.

    But none of this registers with his worshipers. What is the phrase? There is none so blind….

    noel (b4d580)

  249. You have to be amazed that when Trump says something crazy, ALMOST EVERY DAY, and I point it out…. I am berated for the volume of my criticisms.

    noel (b4d580)

  250. Noel:

    It’s an illustration of the basic failure of Conservatism as practiced in the United States that (i) the GOP so happily threw over more traditional figures for this and (ii) the President is seen as so spectacularly vital to everything in the first place.

    I think the founders knew that a Donald Trump was possible. They hoped the system they developed could keep him from running too far amok. Thus far, I actually think it’s done a good job of restraining him. We’ll see if that continues for the next 2 (or, omfg 6) years.

    Appalled (96665e)

  251. This one guy controls the very existence of mankind. One guy.

    Scary. IYKWIMAITTYD.

    Skorcher (5b282a)

  252. Appalled asks if I think that Trump believes everything he tweets. I honestly don’t know anymore. He has tweeted many insults and conspiracies and lies. You cannot know what he really believes. If he does believe them, we are probably in worse shape than if he doesn’t.

    noel (b4d580)

  253. 40. Beldar, I’m going to try to answer this again, and hopefully it’ll get out of the moderation queue. One of the items in my philosophy is that the U.S. should always keep all diplomatic channels open at all times with all parties, but with expectations kept really low. This means that I’m open to us meeting with those who are hostile to our interests, but it doesn’t mean that we concede to their interests if they conflict with ours.
    In that vein, I don’t oppose Trump meeting with Fat Kim. After all, Kim is the legitimate leader of his country and they have a seat at the UN. My larger concern is that Trump gives away too much. Suspending military maneuvers is not that much of a “give” because, if Kim starts behaving like a dick, he can un-suspend them at will. Also, there’s a larger context because earlier this year Kim returned American hostages and suspended ballistic missile tests, so it’s not unreasonable for a return gesture. The question is what else will Trump give up. Hopefully not sanctions unless they’re conditioned on concrete and verifiable denuclearizing steps, but Trump has given away our leverage before, so I’m not optimistic.

    Paul Montagu (c66aed)

  254. If he does believe them, we are probably in worse shape than if he doesn’t.

    So it’s win/win then. Cool.

    Skorcher (5b282a)

  255. dirty rod rosytwat keeps stonewalling Congress

    what are you hiding little man

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  256. 40. Beldar, hopefully this comment will make it through. My approach is that it’s okay to keep diplomatic channels open as much as possible, but with expectations kept really low, and this doesn’t preclude putting “maximum pressure” on him in the form of sanctions and continuing to call for Kim to dismantle his nuclear program.
    I don’t see Trump’s suspension of military maneuvers as a terrible thing because he can un-suspend them if Fat Kim behaves like a dick, which I’m confident will happen. In the larger context of Kim releasing American hostages and suspending missile tests, Trump’s gesture is not completely out of line. The concern I have is that Trump will give up even more while Kim welshes or stalls.
    But like it or not, Fat Kim is the legitimate leader of his country. I think it’s better to talk with him than not, especially if it moves us even a little further away from military conflict. I doubt we’ll actually get to an agreement with real “trust but verify” provisions, which puts us pretty much where we were six months and six years ago. Trump can still use a failed agreement for his gain by saying “I tried to get Kim to a fair agreement and he wouldn’t take it, so we’re going to sanction the son-of-a-b**ch and urge China to step up to the plate and take some responsibility.”

    Paul Montagu (c66aed)

  257. 40. Beldar, my approach is that it’s okay to keep diplomatic channels open as much as possible, but with expectations kept really low, and this doesn’t preclude putting “maximum pressure” on him in the form of sanctions and continuing to call for Kim to dismantle his nuclear program.
    I don’t see Trump’s suspension of military maneuvers as a terrible thing because he can un-suspend them if Fat Kim behaves like a dick, which I’m confident will happen. In the larger context of Kim releasing American hostages and suspending missile tests, Trump’s gesture is not completely out of line. The concern I have is that Trump will give up even more while Kim welshes or stalls.
    But like it or not, Fat Kim is the legitimate leader of his country. I think it’s better to talk with him than not, especially if it moves us even a little further away from military conflict. I doubt we’ll actually get to an agreement with real “trust but verify” provisions, which puts us pretty much where we were six months and six years ago. Trump can still use a failed agreement for his gain by saying “I tried to get Kim to a fair agreement and he wouldn’t take it, so we’re going to sanction the son-of-a-b**ch and urge China to step up to the plate and take some responsibility.”

    Paul Montagu (c66aed)

  258. Yeah… but that’s not what she said. She dances in teh same conga line as a few folks around here.

    That person x believes the same thing you do means nothing about you. As DRJ pointed out, we could use the same logic to equate Trump supporters with Richard Spencer. Yet this very poor logic is used against every criticism of Trump: you sound like the left!!!!!1! Once you accept logic like that, literallly no criticism of Trump is valid because it sounds like the left.

    You have to come up with something better than “Dana Bash thinks that too” or “you are a leftist because you cited Jonathan Chait.” Not one person complained when I cited Jonathan Chait on the problems with the Rick Perry indictment. But cite an argument of his criticizing Trump and it’s proof I am lost to the left. Meanwhile zero of my core principles have changed.

    Patterico (0240e5)

  259. as sacred places reminds us, Erick honecker did try concessions, and it ended up with the Berlin wall falling, btw, that was the 31st anniversary, the minefields are the wall,

    narciso (d1f714)

  260. @259 What’s Rosenstein hiding? Probably additional leak investigation(s) of members and/or staff.

    crazy (5c5b07)

  261. 260.

    But like it or not, Fat Kim is the legitimate leader of his country.

    … A leader whose underlings stage Potemkin elections and assassinate other claimants

    JP (2fb936)

  262. couldn’t find anything specific to korea, but this was her take in 99, which is the same in 2018

    narciso (d1f714)

  263. Hey, criticize away! Free country. I’ll continue to call a spade a spade.

    Colonel Haiku (3ad005)

  264. One source familiar with the situation says that Rosenstein’s decision to recommend a committee investigation is retribution for the Fox News article.

    “The new threat from Rosenstein to complain to House general counsel about a months old meeting makes no sense except as retaliation for this story getting out,” the source told The Daily Caller News Foundation.

    petty little rosytwat he’s like a spineless little octopus blowing ink

    it’s time to clean house at our corrupt little justice department

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  265. “ Nonathan Chait”

    Nice ring to that!

    Colonel Haiku (3ad005)

  266. When there is a paucity of conservative pundits to turn to, some turn left

    Colonel Haiku (3ad005)

  267. Even if true, Trump’s declaration is grossly premature by any normal diplomatic standard. Considering that North Korea has promised to “denuclearize” at least four times in the past (5 or 6 by some counts) and has yet to do so, there is no reason to believe that they have or they will this time. When they do break that promise (as lifelong communists are wont to do), is Trump going to be any less likely than any other politician to look the other way? Could Donald Trump really admit he was wrong?

    Gryph (08c844)

  268. here are a timely reminder of the foreign policy brilliance of bozo princeling George W. Bush

    Iraq’s Sadr Forms Surprise Alliance With Pro-Iran Coalition

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  269. @199. Interesting NYT’s article, Sammy. The view that Kim is seeking to capitalize on US/SK offers to lure NK away from total dependence on China seems to fit what we’ve seen from Trump/Pompeo’s actions. The return of CIA’s recently retired guru on NK to Pompeo’s team probably has a lot to do with the administration’s confidence that a big change-of-course deal with Kim is doable. We’ll soon see who’s right.

    crazy (5c5b07)

  270. Oops, sorry about the duplicate comments.

    Paul Montagu (c66aed)

  271. Attorney General Jeff Sessions defended Rosenstein on Tuesday during an interview with Fox News, telling the network he was “confident that Deputy Rosenstein, after 28 years in the Department of Justice, did not improperly threaten anyone on that occasion.”

    Got that? Did not improperly threaten anyone….

    Because the DOJ has oversight over a Congressional committee — not the other way around.

    random viking (6a54c2)

  272. If Donald being a liar…. or crazy… is a win win, then you’d fit right in with the new Republican Party. So, am I reading that right?

    noel (b4d580)

  273. Woohoo! There is no longer a nuclear threat from North Korea. Still keeping our eye on Canada.

    noel (b4d580)

  274. Trump also tweeted that our Country’s greatest threat is….

    noel (b4d580)

  275. The media!

    Whacko.

    noel (b4d580)

  276. If Donald being a liar…. or crazy… is a win win, then you’d fit right in with the new Republican Party. So, am I reading that right?

    We apparently have different understanding of the word “we”, in context. Or maybe not. Though definitely in regard to “the very existence of mankind”.

    Skorcher (5b282a)

  277. Enough already with Beldar’s bogus claim that Trump’s meeting with Kim Jong Un elevated the NOKO dictator to International prominence and secured his leadership position.

    Nuclear weapons and the demonstrated ability to deliver them is what elevated Kim to world prominence. And, that’s what brought the American president calling, that and nothing else.

    As for the stability of Kim’s leadership it would be wise to consult the NK constitution. Only a male direct blood relative of the Great Leader, Kim Il Sung may hold the supreme authority.

    (That’s why Un’s older brother was assinated, Now, other than Un there are no other qualified contenders.)

    Additionally, Kim Jong Un has carefully modeled himself and his ‘cult of personality’ on the Great Leader, the better to emphasize the legitimacy of his rule.

    Ever wonder why Kim has such an unflattering haircut? It’s the same as his revered grandfather’s. Kim’s attire is cut in the same familiar style Kim Il Sung preferred. When Un speaks publicly be uses Sung’s words and his cadence to emphasize the unbroken relationship.

    Moreover, Kim Jong Un has the solid support of the military. He’s consistently favored them with special considerations even to the point of allocating scarce resources first to the military at the expense of the general population.

    And, he’s been quick to sack multiple high level military officials who opposed his policies. Obviously, that’s one way a confident leader demonstrates authority, secure in his position, and willing to brook no opposition.

    ropelight (0b27dc)

  278. Of course Trump propped up the North Korean dictatorship. Pretending these actions haven’t done so is as crazy as saying Trump didn’t lie about Matthew Pottinger, or that his son didn’t meet with the Russian government for dirt that would steer the election Trump’s way.

    This deal is one of those ‘too big to fail’ sort of lies, kinda like Chamberlain on Poland. Of course your kids will be horrified by the weapons the North Koreans are developing now, and will condemn the naivety of the Trump administration, much as we blast Madeline Albright for her failure in 1994. No reasonable person, having been informed of the North Korean lies on these deals in the past, trusts them now. Hell, the only reason to have the summit was to create a ‘fake news’ story and bash Trump’s critics as America’s enemies. He really does sound like a tin pot el presidente these days.

    Dustin (ba94b2)

  279. Of course, there is no paucity of conservative pundits or opinion columnists, just a shortage of those who’ve gone all Bill Kristol/NeverTrump.

    Colonel Haiku (3ad005)

  280. Hell, the only reason to have the summit was to create a ‘fake news’ story and bash Trump’s critics as America’s enemies.

    Deep Thoughts…

    Colonel Haiku (3ad005)

  281. i never thought of it that way before

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  282. re sadr, joining with the salnroon, takes much of the oomph out of his movement,

    narciso (d1f714)

  283. @ Paul Montagu, who wrote (#):

    One of the items in my philosophy is that the U.S. should always keep all diplomatic channels open at all times with all parties, but with expectations kept really low.

    I agree with this. But the POTUS need not be the point of contact, and before this summit, never was, with the Norks. That was a very, very deliberate and important decision by prior presidents. Trump got nothing to justify a deviation from it. Who’s he going to meet with in person next? Boko Haram?

    Beldar (fa637a)

  284. Sorry, that (#293) was in response to Mr. Montagu’s #264.

    @ ropelight (#287): I’ve never been to North Korea. I’m willing to bet you haven’t either. Therefore: Can you cite us all to a single online resource by someone who has, or someone who’s at least engaged in the full-time study of North Korea professionally, who agrees with your assertions that Kim is secure in his position?

    I ask because literally every such resource I’ve ever seen says exactly the opposite — except for Donald Trump. What comes out of your mouth, like always, is a regurgitation of what he’s said. Are you going to tell us that the Dear Leader loves his people, too?

    Beldar (fa637a)

  285. “As for the stability of Kim’s leadership it would be wise to consult the NK constitution.”

    – ropelight

    lolololololololol…

    Why would any serious person waste an instant of their time consulting “the NK constitution”?

    Leviticus (efada1)

  286. Here’s an example, from James S. Robins, senior fellow for national security affairs at the American Foreign Policy Council, of the of the literally hundreds of articles on Kim Jong-il’s massive insecurity in office, which led him to execute three top military officials before he dared leave the country for this summit: All Eyes on Kim Jong Un: Why the North Korean dictator may be in a much weaker position than he says.

    So I repeat, ropelight: Cite a source, besides Trump, for your position, if you can.

    Beldar (fa637a)

  287. Kim is in a weak position, much weaker than he says. Kim is only 34, unlike Trump and Moon, and will be around long after both are gone. Pick one.

    Skorcher (5b282a)

  288. Leviticus: I took a class in comparative East Asian law. So I’ve read the English translation of the NKorea constitution, because I had to for a class.

    aphrael (e0cdc9)

  289. @296. Beldar, you gotta hand it to Kim, he played a weak hand beyond the max and leveraged it into diplomatic wins across the board. He may not have Paul Newman’s looks, but this week, he’s ‘Cool Hand Kim’ for sure.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  290. you gotta hand it to Kim, he played a weak hand beyond the max and leveraged it into diplomatic wins across the board. He may not have Paul Newman’s looks, but this week, he’s ‘Cool Hand Kim’ for sure.

    Not only that but he and Trump got in a round of golf and Kim no only beat Trump like a drum, but also bested his daddy’s record of 11 holes in one with 13 of the suckers. Of course we all knew this was going to happen because it was foretold by a swallow and heralded by a double rainbow the day before. Of course the White House denied all this. The liars that they are.

    Skorcher (5b282a)

  291. 288. Dustin (ba94b2) — 6/13/2018 @ 8:46 am

    This deal is one of those ‘too big to fail’ sort of lies, kinda like Chamberlain on Poland.

    Do you mean Checheslovakia (Munich in 1938) or Poland.

    With Poland, Chamberlain indicated Britain would go to war if Poland was attacked. They “guaranteed” the borders of Poland, it is said. With no way of making good. What that really was was a “test case.”

    No reasonable person, having been informed of the North Korean lies on these deals in the past, trusts them now.

    Trump is saying a lot of things that shouldn’t be said about North Korea, (and it’s hard to figure out the reason. Does Trump know or not? is it aform of flattery? Does he care?) but he’s not indicating that he trusts them. He said we’ll see in six months.

    https://www.nytimes.com/2018/06/12/world/asia/trump-summit-transcript.html

    Honestly, I think he’s going to do these things. I may be wrong, I mean I may stand before you in six months and say, hey, I was wrong — I don’t know that I’ll ever admit that, but I’ll find some kind of an excuse.

    Trump is now getting to the point of admitting that he lies. Or is it not a lie if nobody believes it, like Ann Coulter says?

    does sound like a tin pot el presidente these days.

    Sammy Finkelman (02a146)

  292. The big problem is that, with a weak, if not empty, hand, North Korea probed for and found the minimum that Trump would accept. But the minimum is not as good for North Korea as North Korea thinks.

    On top of that they are starting to misstate the agreement.

    Sammy Finkelman (02a146)

  293. 294. I’m partly with you, Beldar, regarding the timing of when a president meets with another head-of-state, but previous diplomatic processes have yielded nothing, so I’m amenable to seeing how this unfolds, but I would be pushed into the “no” column if Trump starts lifting sanctions without concrete actions in return by Kim.
    The Boko Haram analogy is really inapt because they don’t have a seat at the UN and we don’t negotiate with terrorists, but I sense that you’re trying to counter my point by pushing it to its most absurd length. Fat Kim is certainly brutal and evil in his acts, but he’s not an international terrorist. Rather, we are at a 60-plus year armistice with the nation that he is in charge of.

    Paul Montagu (c66aed)

  294. 287. ropelight (0b27dc) — 6/13/2018 @ 8:32 am

    Now, other than Un there are no other qualified contenders.)

    Actually, there is another brother, but he’s not in China.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kim_Jong-chul

    Moreover, Kim Jong Un has the solid support of the military. He’s consistently favored them with special considerations even to the point of allocating scarce resources first to the military at the expense of the general population.

    And, he’s been quick to sack multiple high level military officials who opposed his policies.

    tTyhat doesn’t sound like he thinks he has the full support of the military.

    They’re all terrified of him, that’s what it is, and Kim is terrified of them in the long run.

    Sammy Finkelman (02a146)

  295. 303. Paul Montagu (c66aed) — 6/13/2018 @ 1:38 pm

    The Boko Haram analogy is really inapt because they don’t have a seat at the UN and we don’t negotiate with terrorists,

    Except in novels co-authored by Bill Clinton.

    Sammy Finkelman (02a146)

  296. 295. Leviticus (efada1) — 6/13/2018 @ 11:43 am

    Why would any serious person waste an instant of their time consulting “the NK constitution”?

    This is a part of the constitution they are serious about. It is not in there for show. You put human rights and democracy in a constitution for show. You don’t put in a clause for show that says that only a male direct blood relative of the Great Leader, Kim Il Sung, may hold the supreme authority.

    Sammy Finkelman (02a146)

  297. 132. There’s a real trailer that Kim Jong Un made 5 years ago, showing him launching a nuclear attack against Hawaii, Los Angeles, Washington D.C. and Austin (which they put near Shreveport, – or was it Colorado in the beta version? – and probably mistook for Houston.)

    I didn’t find it – this is from Austin TV

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i-ezVhsz6XA

    This is another link ABOUT it:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wakqvpOAAtU

    In possible response to his still picture and trailer about attacking Los Angeles, Sony pictures and a whole movie about assassinating Kim Jong Un.

    In retaliation, North Korea hacked SONY, and leaked embarrassing computer files and deleted the rest.

    Sammy Finkelman (02a146)

  298. So tell me again how “impossible” equated to 2:1 betting odds (withdrawn 24 hours after offered and SEVERAL days before the summit)?

    Anonymous (3bf338)

  299. Beldar, I don’t have a citation or a link in support of my statement on the NK constitution. I read a lot, it’s something I came across in the last few days, found informative, and remembered it.

    I’ll keep an eye out, and if I encounter it again I’ll make sure to record the particulars.

    ropelight (0b27dc)

  300. Trump is nominated.

    felipe (023cc9)

  301. When a person such as Dana Bash takes the same position you are, it should be time to take time to take stock of what you’ve morphed into.

    Colonel Haiku (3ad005) — 6/12/2018 @ 7:30 pm

    What about when a person such as James Clapper, Obama’s DNI, takes your position?

    Or you could try to analyze the message instead of the messenger.

    DRJ (15874d)


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