Patterico's Pontifications

4/9/2018

Calm Down About the Cohen Raid

Filed under: General — Patterico @ 10:00 pm

I have a very firm stance on the propriety of the raid on the office, home, and hotel room of Donald Trump’s lawyer.

You ready? Here it is: I have no idea whether it was a proper action. But you’ll have to take it on faith that I didn’t consult the Magic 8 Ball before I concluded: all signs point to yes.

Commenters at my personal blog are no doubt representative of a large group of grassroots Republicans. They’re hopping mad. They’re calling this a fascist move.

Let’s take the dumbest possible Trumpist argument as a foil with which to clear away some of the underbrush. This may come across like a constructed strawman, but I’m seeing this point of view in my comments, so let me dismantle it before I take speak in a more measured fashion to the people who have not yet lost their minds.

The dumbest possible Trumpist argument is: This is Robert Mueller acting like a fascist. We are in Nazi America and the Gestapo has been released. Any prosecutor who thinks there is the slightest chance that this is on the level is necessarily corrupt. Seizing attorney-client communications shreds several amendments to the Constitution. Surely there is something wrong when Robert Mueller takes the word of a porn star and nothing else to raid the office of the President’s lawyer. This goes beyond TDS. It’s treason. Why, it’s no different from a SWATting!!!!1!

This is a pretty fair paraphrase of some comments I have seen on my blog. The crazy stuff — the stuff that sensible people would assume I am making up, because rational people don’t talk like this — it’s all there in my comments.

More and more, I feel that I have nothing in common with these people. I realize I’m telling off a lot of people who read what I write. I say this with the highest possible respect: you people have lost your freaking minds.

Let’s tick off some of the facts we know:

  • These warrants weren’t executed under the direction of Robert Mueller. They were executed under the direction of the U.S. Attorney for the Southern District of New York, a Trump appointee. Remember what I said here on March 29:

    There’s really no scenario in which this plays out well for Cohen. We know that Robert Mueller is looking at some of Cohen’s involvement in Russia-related activities like Trump Tower Moscow. Mueller seems like a thorough guy, and if he runs across illegal activity by Cohen of any kind in the course of his investigation, he can at a minimum refer those matters to the Justice Department, and conceivably take them on himself.

    Disbarment might be the least of Cohen’s worries at this point.

    New York Times last night:

    Federal prosecutors in Manhattan obtained the search warrant after receiving a referral from the special counsel, Robert S. Mueller III, according to Mr. Cohen’s lawyer

    It didn’t take a genius to see this coming, but let’s not pretend Robert Mueller was behind this raid. Even Cohen’s lawyer admits this was based on a referral.

  • It is not unprecedented, at all, to serve a warrant on a lawyer’s office. It usually requires higher levels of scrutiny, to be sure — and like many prosecutorial agencies, DoJ requires several levels of approval for such a warrant. They got it here.
  • It is not unprecedented, at all, to seize attorney-client privileged materials. In no way does that constitute a shredding off the right to counsel or any other constitutional provision. Such materials require strict procedures — a “dirty” team or a special master, with rigid separation from the “clean” team — to ensure that the prosecution team does not get their hands on privileged material. But again: this sort of thing happens all the time. If you were unaware of that fact, it’s time you learned it.
  • A federal magistrate approved this. Yes, magistrates sometimes approve bad warrants. But this was a very high-profile warrant, and a magistrate would have a high incentive to look at it verrrry carefully, so as to avoid looking like a fool later.
  • This warrant is almost certainly not based exclusively, or even in any significant part, on the word of Stormy Daniels. Stormy Daniels is, to put it mildly, not a credible person. She has admitted telling lies about this episode in the past. But you know who else has been flapping their gums about this? Michael Cohen and Donald Trump. Between the two of them, they’ve put enough material in the public record out of their own lie-holes for us to know that Cohen put up the hush money for Daniels, days before a presidential election, and went to tremendous and almost certainly unethical (if not illegal) lengths to distance Trump from that payment.
  • Nazis killed millions of Jews. These people were executing a search warrant. Calm the [expletive deleted] down, people!

Do we know that there is a solid foundation of probable cause for this warrant? No. We haven’t read it. Without reading it, we can’t know.

But, taking the above bullet points into account, all signs point to yes.

And if you’re hellbent on assuming, without knowing any facts, that this is a Nazi move — the Gestapo in action; treason before our very eyes — then you’ve gone waaaaay off the rails. You’ve fallen for the propaganda. You’re willing to tar dozens of professionals as Deep State “traitors” based on the propaganda offered by an orange-haired clown and his soulless dunce confederates.

Now: let’s take a giant step backwards and raise a leg to pee on the left for a second.

Nothing here means Donald Trump necessarily committed a crime. It’s far likelier to conclude that a provable crime might be proved against Michael Cohen than Donald Trump.

None of this means there is evidence of collusion between Trump and the Russian government.

What is means is that numerous people in the executive and judicial branches of government thought there was probable cause to believe that evidence of a crime would be found in the office or residence of the President’s lawyer. And that they followed the path laid out in the United States Constitution to learn whether they were right.

Period. End of discussion.

Now calm down, and stop going full retard on the partisanship. Stop, wait, think, listen, and learn. Above all, stop. Stop yammering. Stop screaming that we live in Nazi Germany. You sound like idiots.

Just stop.

[Cross-posted at RedState and The Jury Talks Back.]

766 Responses to “Calm Down About the Cohen Raid”

  1. wow this is quite the fascist apologia Mr. P notwithstanding all the footnotes

    me?

    I DID NOT LIVE UNTIL TODAY

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  2. Well how do you explain all of Clinton’s people being allowed to destroy their emails and devices while being given immunity while trumps are given pre dawn raids of all their assets? This is corruption not Nazi germany.

    Hi (ffbb3b)

  3. Did the entire Muller saga begin with a fraudulent claim about Russian collusion with Trump and the Trump dossier as well as surveillance obtained by corrupt means through the FISA courts?

    NJRob (b00189)

  4. The difference in how the Clinton email investigation and this is so stark that I don’t even know how to describe it. No sane person would describe them as using the same SOP. This is beyond ridiculous but hey you got your “principles which you seem to have abandoned cause you hate trump but oh well.

    Hi (ffbb3b)

  5. oh c’mon it can be corruption and nazi germany both

    his name is goddamn mueller for christ’s sake (skinshade lamps)

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  6. the Trump dossier

    poopstain mccain brung us this dossier – his daughter has such delectably large breasts for the fatherland!

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  7. If trump were a democrat you and the entire media as well as most sane people would be laughing at this bs like how everyone laughed at the birthers. But hey what a difference being a democrat and not tweeting mean stuff mean to everyone it seems.

    Hi (ffbb3b)

  8. Unfurl the banners and call forth the trumpets! In brilliant riposte (and executing for him a most difficult maneuver), Mr. Feets eschewed his normal custom of saying something wholly stupid and grandly-and-gratuitously offensive, and uttered forth but weak tea of moderately tepid tosh. April 9, it was. 2018. April 9.

    Q! (86710c)

  9. I DID NOT LIVE UNTIL TODAY

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  10. what’s not to be eschewed is this: what happens when all the dimwit mormon fbi trash have to actually rule the nation they conquered in the namr of herr mueller?

    what then???

    (hilarity ensues)

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  11. ugh

    in the *name* of herr mueller i mean

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  12. here you go picklehead this is my favorite anti-fascist song all year

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  13. Hmmm. Did someone just call Patterico a fascist?

    Oh, I am sorry: an apologist for fascists.

    That’s totally different.

    I’m starting to see Patterico’s goal here: to allow people to demonstrate what he finds odious about partisans.

    Simon Jester (3697fa)

  14. you really had me going

    wishing on a star

    the black holes that surround you Mr. Jester are heavier by far

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  15. Hey, I hope you are right that you weren’t lying about Patterico again. But you just can’t help yourself.

    But you and I aren’t supposed to talk. Because you are a misogynist, lying, and offensive jackass.

    I didn’t refer to you directly in my post. Please do me the same favor.

    Thanks also for the lampshade comment. So very classy.

    I’m happy to chat or debate you as soon as you quit being…well, the horrific jerk you are. Because you are capable of being decent. You just choose this foolishness.

    Simon Jester (3697fa)

  16. ok pickle-poo i give to you the death of failmerica (as interpreted by pre-tatted super-hot sinead)

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  17. ONE DAY MORE!!

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  18. USA Chuck Rhodes has to ask Wendy permission for a Special Master.

    Pinandpuller (d20ede)

  19. “calm down about the cohen raid”

    i will not calm down about the cohen raid

    never again

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  20. More and more, I feel that I have nothing in common with these people. I realize I’m telling off a lot of people who read what I write. I say this with the highest possible respect: you people have lost your freaking minds.

    Mr. Patterico how is this not textbook social positioning?

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  21. you people have lost your freaking minds.

    QFT. And thank you for the relevant legal background info.

    I think it’s going to get worse before it gets better, though. If it ever gets better.

    Trump is surrounded by people giving him bad advice, and he is an imbecile.

    I think he’s likely to make a big mistake in the near future, and the fallout will make his worshipers’ past hysteria look tame in comparison.

    Dave (445e97)

  22. Stop screaming that we live in Nazi Germany.

    If you’ve driven on any American interstate, it’s pretty clear it ain’t an autobahn. OTOH, entertainment insiders slave-laboring to all hours at the Disney Company nicknamed it ‘Mouschwitz’ a long, long time ago.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  23. Hmmm. Did someone just call Patterico a fascist?

    Oh, I am sorry: an apologist for fascists.

    I was more concerned about the picklehead comment.

    Anon Y. Mous (6cc438)

  24. someday i’ll wear

    pajamas in the daytime

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  25. These warrants weren’t executed under the direction of Robert Mueller. They were executed under the direction of the U.S. Attorney for the Southern District of New York, a Trump appointee.

    Wrong. The New York district was headed by the worthless partisan Preetinder something or other, until he was fired with prejudice.

    THe acting U.S. Attorney for New York is Preet Babaya’s hand picked assistant, Joon Kim, just as shady and rat [edit] as Bunbybya.

    papertiger (c8116c)

  26. I think you’re mistaken Mr. Feet:

    U.S. Attorneys Named in 17 Districts, Including Brooklyn and Manhattan

    Attorney General Jeff Sessions has named interim United States attorneys in Brooklyn and Manhattan, two of the country’s most prominent federal prosecutors’ offices, replacing lawyers who had served as top deputies to Obama appointees.

    On Friday, Geoffrey S. Berman, a former federal prosecutor in Manhattan, will take over the United States Attorney’s Office for the Southern District of New York from Joon H. Kim, who assumed control of the office in March after the longtime U.S. attorney in Manhattan, Preet Bharara, was fired by President Trump. […]

    Typically, the White House acts in the first months of an administration to fill many of the country’s 93 United States attorney’s offices. But President Trump has waited so long in making his choices for several districts, including those based in Manhattan, Brooklyn and Newark, that their acting leaders were running against a legal limit of 300 days in office. Even though Mr. Berman and Mr. Donoghue were appointed by Mr. Sessions under special executive authority, they were widely considered to be President Trump’s top choices.

    It might be good form to apologize for calling Mr. Patterico wrong.

    Dave (445e97)

  27. Oops, it wasn’t Mr. Feet who wrote that! My bad (and sorry Mr. Feet!)

    Dave (445e97)

  28. @5. his name is goddamn mueller for christ’s sake

    Mueller is of German, English and Scottish descent, Mr. Feet. You could say he has felt conflicted in the past but is now at peace with himself.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  29. it’s all good in the hood

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  30. Stop screaming that we live in Nazi Germany.

    First they came for the yellow legal pads.

    But since I wasn’t a yellow legal pad, I said nothing…

    Dave (445e97)

  31. So where are the usual MSM media bashers all at???

    One of the FBI raids was at Cohen’s Midtown Manhattan office– located in 30 Rockefeller Center– literally directly across 6th Avenue from Fox News and in the same building with NBC News. Apparently neither outlets got any video footage of it.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  32. you don’t have to be a yeller legal pad to speak up

    you just have to commit

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  33. gogogo

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  34. This just keeps getting better and better. The only thing I could hope for is if we somehow had Eliot Spitzer and Anthony Weiner involved. Maybe as witnesses to the credibility, or lack thereof, of the porn star.

    Allen (5f3847)

  35. papertiger, that’s not what the DoJ’s website thinks:

    https://www.justice.gov/usao-sdny/meet-us-attorney

    > Geoffrey S. Berman is the United States Attorney for the Southern District of New York.

    Sessions appointed him on January 3 of this year, effective January 5 of this year. Interestingly, according to his bio in the press release announcing his appointment, he served on the staff of the Iran-Contra committee.

    aphrael (3f0569)

  36. Patterico: I agree that this is way more likely to be evidence of wrongdoing on the part of Cohen than on the part of Trump, and it’s quite likely that it’s worst effect on Trump is to underscore his bad judgment of his associates’ character.

    And my inclination is to assume that procedure was followed. So the reaction of the Trumpist right confuses me.

    aphrael (3f0569)

  37. we should just have the dirty turgid comey/mueller fbi eff all the american presidents up the ass on a regular basis plus the dirty poopholes of their wives (michelle and melania and hillary)

    this would be social justice and also good diversity

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  38. gently of course

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  39. Except this whole thing started with the government obtaining warrants under false pretenses.

    I’m not a huge Trump fan but the DOJ and the FBI and the special counsel no longer have my trust.

    WarEagle82 (2b3d34)

  40. I agree that this is way more likely to be evidence of wrongdoing on the part of Cohen than on the part of Trump

    Certainly it looks like Cohen is indeed gonna take a long vacation, although not the one he stupidly boasted about.

    But is it credible to suppose that a control freak like Trump, who trusts the judgment of NO ONE but himself, wouldn’t have been giving Cohen instructions? One of Cohen’s apparent purposes was to fix problems while keeping them away from Trump, but if evidence seized shows that Trump was in the loop, anything illegal that Cohen did on his behalf becomes Trump’s problem too.

    If Trump stays true to form, he will likely also attempt to obstruct justice by using veiled threats and coercion to shut down or whitewash the investigation, as he did for Flynn.

    Dave (445e97)

  41. “In no way does that constitute a shredding off the right to counsel or any other constitutional provision. Such materials require strict procedures — a “dirty” team or a special master, with rigid separation from the “clean” team — to ensure that the prosecution team does not get their hands on privileged material.”
    –err, and we are supposed to believe that the same people who engaged in unprecedented and illegal unmasking and leaking of US persons for FISA intercepts will suddenly start dotting all the i’s and crossing the t’s when it comes to documents that are supposedly barred by “attorney-client” privilege?

    Mike Del Sol (48ad58)

  42. Mueller is of German, English and Scottish descent, Mr. Feet. You could say he has felt conflicted in the past but is now at peace with himself.

    DCSCA (797bc0) — 4/10/2018 @ 12:11 am

    He’s his own first cousin.

    You know, I don’t think there could have been an OITNB without Lost. It’s following the same flashback formula so far.

    Pinandpuller (d20ede)

  43. robert mueller is disgusting i have to go to bed now

    to sleep perhaps not to dream about disgusting fascist p.o.s. robert mueller

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  44. sorry i was rude Mr. aphrael i have too many eyeballs ok bye

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  45. Erica Eiffel sounds like a porn star but she’s oh so much more:

    Erika La Tour Eiffel, 37, a former soldier who lives in San Francisco, has been in love with objects before. Her first infatuation was with Lance, a bow that helped her to become a world-class archer, she is fond of the Berlin Wall and she claims to have a physical relationship with a piece of fence she keeps in her bedroom.

    But it is the Eiffel Tower she has pledged to love, honour and obey in an intimate ceremony attended by a handful of friends.

    She has changed her name legally to reflect the bond.

    She revisits the massive structure as part of a documentary on Five on Objectum-Sexual women. There are around 40 people in the world who have declared themselves OS, all of them women and many of them also Asperger’s Syndrome sufferers.

    The OS term was first coined by Eija-Riitta Berliner-Mauer, a 54-year-old woman who has been “married” to the Berlin Wall for 29 years.

    Before returning to Paris for her first wedding anniversary, Mrs La Tour Eiffel visits the Berlin Wall, where her affection for what many Germans see as a symbol of repression leads to an uncomfortable encounter with a member of the staff at the Checkpoint Charlie museum.

    Telegraph

    Pinandpuller (d20ede)

  46. i have no patience with these object-loving weirdos plus i have too many eyeballs

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  47. Patterico,

    Perhaps you should clarify some points for your readers then.

    1. “I have a very firm stance on the propriety of the raid on the office, home, and hotel room of Donald Trump’s lawyer.”

    Your stance seems to be: “Good. About time. Go get ‘em boys!.” And yet some very well-respected blogger/commenters are seeing these raids as 1) far exceeding the mandates of the Mueller investigation into Russian interference/collusion in the last election and, 2) an INCREDIBLE stretch of “violating” campaign finance laws. (Paul Mirengoff at http://www.powerlineblog.com/archives/2018/04/should-trump-sit-down-with-robert-mueller.php and John Hinderaker at http://www.powerlineblog.com/archives/2018/04/the-fbi-escalates-its-war-on-the-trump-administration.php)

    2. “Commenters at my personal blog are no doubt representative of a large group of grassroots Republicans. They’re hopping mad. They’re calling this a fascist move.”

    I have commented maybe a handful of times on your blog over the years. I would say yes, this move has caused me to be very upset. The FBI and DOJ track record over the last 8 years has not been very good when it comes to investigations being fair or non-political. There is a reason why some people in the comments are angry over the Us Attorney and FBI conducting a raid of DJT lawyer in the face of what you said “[DJT and Cohen] put enough material in the public record out of their own lie-holes”. Yet HRC’s own lawyers never experienced a raid or treatment like this despite the massive amounts of collusion on the homebrew email server, the destruction of evidence, or their access to emails prior to turning over what they deemed “relevant” to investigators.

    Step back from your role as an attorney and look at it from our perspective –

    DJT lawyer provides $130,000 cash payment to a porn start who had an illicit affair a decade ago and the DOJ conducts raids.

    HRC lawyers have unauthorized access to classified emails, review such emails for relevance, and then destroy or withhold other emails from investigators and the DOJ can’t be bothered to go secure the evidence from their offices or homes?

    You honestly do not see a double standard here? You do not see why people would be upset that our supposedly impartial DOJ employees are participating in an obviously political stunt?

    3. “More and more, I feel that I have nothing in common with these people. I realize I’m telling off a lot of people who read what I write. I say this with the highest possible respect: you people have lost your freaking minds.”

    I think what you are witnessing is something that you do not actually have experience with growing up in the United States – a group of people who see two separate justice systems, two different outcomes for one political party over the other, and have lost faith in the institutions to conduct their jobs fairly and impartially. From the Wisconsin John Doe investigations, to the Lois Lerner IRS scandal, to the handling of the HRC email server, to the lack of movement in the Uranium One investigation conservatives are no longer feeling like they can fairly participate in politics without retribution from those who hold power.

    Glenn Reynolds of Instapundit fame repeatedly says “You want more Trump? This is how you get more Trump.”

    Now granted you try and take the sober approach and list off the facts that we know about the situation but honestly – why should anyone take those facts at face value? Because we respect the hard working, impartial members of the DOJ and FBI?? They have already burned that bridge through the actions of people like McCabe, Strzok, Page, Ohr, and others.

    Why should we trust that what they do is on the up-and-up when they have demonstrated that they are unworthy of such trust?

    The people being angry is not the problem.

    The problem is what the people working and running the institutions have done to MAKE the people angry.

    But back to the evidence. We are to believe that the application for a warrant is on the up and up? From the same FBI/DOJ that is under investigation for FISA warrant abuses… ok.

    4. “These warrants weren’t executed under the direction of Robert Mueller.” & “Federal prosecutors in Manhattan obtained the search warrant after receiving a referral from the special counsel, Robert S. Mueller III”

    The information was referred from Robert S. Mueller III… who is supposed to be investigating Rusisan/election collusion. So are we now saying that $130,000 payment has anything, ANYTHING to do with his investigation? You can say that with a straight face right?

    5. “It is not unprecedented, at all, to serve a warrant on a lawyer’s office” & “It is not unprecedented, at all, to seize attorney-client privileged materials.”

    While others might say it is unprecedented to serve a warrant or raid a lawyers office I am not. However, when people are watching – in real time – how the FBI and DOJ handle one political parties lawyers versus another’s in an alleged, ALLEGED mind you, crime then yes they are going to raise eyebrows or take to the keyboards to make their anger known.

    6. “A federal magistrate approved this.”

    So what? We have already seen in the FISA abuse scandal and the Wisconsin John Doe raids that even when someone is wrong, wrong, wrong there will always be someone to sign off on a warrant. But again, the institutions have already shown themselves to be untrustworthy in performing fair and impartial investigations and yet we are supposed to take this “fact” as gospel truth that its all on the up and up.

    You know what we did not see – a Federal magistrate sign off on a warrant to raid HRC’s lawyers offices for violation of national security laws and access to classified information. I’m sure that was just an investigatory oversight and – Just. Not. Enough. Probable. Cause.

    7. This warrant is almost certainly not based exclusively, or even in any significant part, on the word of Stormy Daniels.

    I think we can safely infer that is correct. However, the information was referred to a US Attorney from the special counsel who is supposed to be investigating Russian election collusion. My question is what possible information could Mr. Mueller have uncovered in his Russian election collusion fishing tri- err, investigation that would make a federal raid the appropriate response?

    Other than, you know, tipping off journalists and getting splashy headlines to embarrass DJT?

    As has been stated above from Mirengoff and Hindraker Mr. Mueller’s investigation has been a farce and it is very possible that Mr. Mueller and others at DOJ are either trying to run out the clock until November 2018 or goad the president into doing something that can be called “obstruction”. You know, both tactics which really scream “Hey we are doing this by the book on the up and up and with no politics involved” right?

    “Do we know that there is a solid foundation of probable cause for this warrant? No. We haven’t read it. Without reading it, we can’t know. But, taking the above bullet points into account, all signs point to yes.”
    I refer you to my point about the FISA warrant scandal and the Wisconsin John Doe investigations. Why should we assume this is appropriate when the institutions involved have shown us they have not been acting appropriately before?

    “And if you’re hellbent on assuming, without knowing any facts, that this is a Nazi move — the Gestapo in action; treason before our very eyes — then you’ve gone waaaaay off the rails. You’ve fallen for the propaganda. You’re willing to tar dozens of professionals as Deep State “traitors” based on the propaganda offered by an orange-haired clown and his soulless dunce confederates.”
    Heh. You mean dozens of professionals such as: Andrew McCabe, Peter Strzok, Lisa Page, Bruce Ohr, Nellie Ohr, and others? When those who have been entrusted with power exercise that power without caution and due diligence why should we expect their colleagues to be any different?
    I’m sure there were PLENTY of fine, upstanding officers at the LAPD Rampart Division so a few bad apples doesn’t ruin the bunch right? No one is going to say ALL of Rampart Division is corrupt just because a few people were caught up in some questionable activity.
    I’m sure there are PLENTY of fine, upstanding officers in the Baltimore Police Department so a few bad apples doesn’t ruin the bunch right? No one is going to say ALL of the Baltimore Police Department is corrupt just because a few people were caught up in some questionable activity.
    I’m sure there are PLENTY of fine, upstanding members of the FBI and US Attorney offices but… well you get the idea.
    When you lose the trust of average Americans maybe it is time to step back and ask yourself – “Hey guys, we are the good guys right? Right? Guys?”

    Best,

    Nevyan

    Nevyan (693812)

  48. So a magistrate is going to look at evidence VERRRRRY carefully so as not to look like a fool. How about the last time a magistrate didn’t look at the evidence VERRRRY carefully, looked like a fool, and anybody besides the cops ever knew he was a fool?
    Somebody bought the dossier as a basis for the FISA warrant of such recent fame. Anybody know who that was? Ever know? Care? The penalty for buying crap from cops and prosecutors has never been explained. If busted publicly, I suppose a sympathy note from the local bar. What does the idiot who bought the dossier brief think about his own rational processes? Very proud, no doubt.
    So don’t be telling us that judges and magistrates have any reluctance to sign on bogus warrants, over and over.

    Richard Aubrey (10ef71)

  49. Fascism is not about killing jews. To obfuscate is not good activity.

    Rau8l Alessandri MD (d75e71)

  50. Patterico, you may very well be correct. One certainly hopes so.

    But there is an old saying. “If you try to kill the king, you best not miss.”

    If it turns out the DOJ did something improper here, then there will be a bloodbath. You cannot deny this is taking things to another level. Perhaps it was done correctly, we’ll see. But whoever did this better hope it does not turn out they did it wrong.

    Bored Lawyer (0e273f)

  51. Do you know who is half German? Trump. The other half is Scottish. His lampshades have no tattoos. (Tattoos cost money.)

    nk (dbc370)

  52. HRC lawyers have unauthorized access to classified emails, review such emails for relevance, and then destroy or withhold other emails from investigators and the DOJ can’t be bothered to go secure the evidence from their offices or homes?

    You honestly do not see a double standard here? You do not see why people would be upset that our supposedly impartial DOJ employees are participating in an obviously political stunt?

    I do. I never said that the Clinton matter was handled properly.

    Of course, Trump let her off the hook when he took office, saying she and Bill had suffered enough.

    I understand being upset at a seeming double standard. None of that makes this a fascist act comparable to a SWATting. That’s just nuts.

    Thanks for taking the time to respond; my time is short this morning or I’d spend more time in discussion with you.

    Patterico (115b1f)

  53. Your stance seems to be: “Good. About time. Go get ‘em boys!.”

    That wasn’t what I said my stance was. What I said was that we can’t know whether the warrant is proper without reading it, but all signs point to yes. Not quite the same thing.

    Patterico (115b1f)

  54. Teh Popehat thinks this is a BIG DEAL.

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  55. It stinks like a dead mackerel in the noonday sun…

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  56. Let’s take a poll. What do you find more incredible:
    1. Trump keeps a fixer on his payroll to cover up scandals for him but does not know what the fixer fixes or how he fixes it.
    2. A lawyer paid $130,000 out of his own pocket to cover up his client’s extramarital fling with a loose woman.

    Now, that may not be corpus delicti, but probable cause is a much lower standard.

    nk (dbc370)

  57. It stinks like a dead mackerel in the noonday sun…

    OK, I have a moment here. I’m on a phone so it’s not easy, but let’s talk about this. Other than contrasting this with the badly handled Hillary case — and I agree that case was badly handled — why does this stink? And even accepting (as I do) that the Hillary case was mishandled, is the argument that the FBI and DoJ should mishandle this too, as compensation? After calling a strike a ball, you call a ball a strike, or something?

    Patterico (e75e6a)

  58. Somebody bought the dossier as a basis for the FISA warrant of such recent fame

    I still don’t know that the Carter Page FISA warrant was improper. Like this warrant, i haven’t read it. And I don’t trust the accounts of those whose have.

    Patterico (e75e6a)

  59. @56

    nk,

    What federal crime could possibly have been committed, that Mr. Mueller supposedly uncovered in the course of his Russian election collusion fishing trip, that warrants federal officers raiding Cohens office, home and hotel room?

    Campaign finance violations?

    If that’s the case then HRC and the DNC should be expecting to hear “Federal Officers! Search Warrant!” in the near future since we have DOJ setting the bar so low for THAT “crime”.

    As others have mentioned here and elsewhere these are the known facts:

    1. The DOJ and FBI has a well documented history of, if not outright falsifying, then providing highly misleading information on applications for warrants.

    2. Members of the FBI have already shown their bias in investigating DJT compared to HRC and that bias has essentially poisoned the well for any agent in the FBI to conduct a fair investigation.

    3. The DOJ and FBI have a bad habit of leaking information to friendly media sources which place the accused (not convicted — but accused) in a dis-favorable light.

    4. The DOJ and FBI have been shown to have withheld exculpatory evidence from the accused and their defense in order to secure convictions.

    But hey… what do I know. Apparently the least intrusive answer for the DOJ and FBI was to take a referral from SC Robert Mueller and conduct a raid of the presidents attorney’s home, office, and hotel room. Perhaps (snowballs chance in hell) everything that gets leaked to the media will be the most favorable information to DJT and Cohen, right? Right?

    Right…

    Best.

    Nevyan (693812)

  60. The information was referred from Robert S. Mueller III… who is supposed to be investigating Rusisan/election collusion. So are we now saying that $130,000 payment has anything, ANYTHING to do with his investigation? You can say that with a straight face right?

    No, I can say something close to the opposite, that Rod Rosenstein and probably Mueller believe it is unrelated enough to be referred to someone else. Which is what happened. All you are doing here is building their credibility.

    Patterico (e75e6a)

  61. We don’t even know the scope of the warrant. It may have been limited to documents relating only to Cohen’s alleged refinanced property; or his lender; or watsername. And files tabbed SEC v. Hoagie, Ex Parte nk, or U.S. v. Haiku had to be left where they were, along with everything else not listed in the warrant.

    nk (dbc370)

  62. I refer you to my point about the FISA warrant scandal and the Wisconsin John Doe investigations.

    The Wisconsin John Doe thing was an unconscionable witch hunt. What does that have to do with this? And again, I don’t buy that the Carter Page FISA warrant was improper because I don’t trust the partisan second-hand reporting. It’s that skepticism that I am supposed to have about criticism of Trunp but nothing else.

    Patterico (e75e6a)

  63. I’m remembering the saga of Webb Hubbell as I reflect on the propriety of the DOJ’s methods and another investigating prosecutor.

    crazy (d99a88)

  64. @60

    Patterico,

    Remind me again what Mr. Mueller is doing so far outside the lane of his Russian election collusion investigation?

    Or as Paul Mirengoff wrote at Powerline Blog:

    “However, reports suggest that the raid may have been related to the issue of payments by Cohen to Stormy Daniels. If so, then Mueller has moved so far from the scope of a reasonable investigation that he should be sacked.” (http://www.powerlineblog.com/archives/2018/04/should-trump-sit-down-with-robert-mueller.php)

    Again — what is the nexus of Cohen’s payments to Stormy Daniels and Russian election collusion that Robert Mueller was investigating them and then said “hey, this sounds like something for the US Attorney in NY?”

    The only credibility being built is that future special counsels can conduct investigations with no boundaries and no oversight. Not exactly great for the country.

    Nevyan (693812)

  65. “More and more, I feel that I have nothing in common with these people. I realize I’m telling off a lot of people who read what I write. I say this with the highest possible respect: you people have lost your freaking minds.”

    Right back at’cha. I asked myself why I continue to read and follow this blog. I can’t come up with a good reason. So goodbye…

    CW (75700e)

  66. Again — what is the nexus of Cohen’s payments to Stormy Daniels and Russian election collusion that Robert Mueller was investigating them and then said “hey, this sounds like something for the US Attorney in NY?”

    The likely nexus is Cohen’s involvement in Trump Organization deals like Trump Tower Moscow.

    Patterico (e75e6a)

  67. Right back at’cha. I asked myself why I continue to read and follow this blog. I can’t come up with a good reason. So goodbye…

    When Trumpalos Flounce

    Patterico (e75e6a)

  68. Nothing makes me happier than when a dyed-in-the-wool Trumpalo announces he’s done with the blog.

    More please.

    Patterico (e75e6a)

  69. I hear Ace likes him some Trump these days, CW. Bonus: he likes to call Trump critics “cucks.” I think that’s more your speed.

    Patterico (e75e6a)

  70. Remind me again what Mr. Mueller is doing so far outside the lane of his Russian election collusion investigation?

    You seem determined not to understand a key point: these warrants were not requested, obtained or executed at the behest of Mueller.

    Mueller DECLINED to to act on whatever underlying suspicion prompted them, and he and/or Rosenstein referred them to the US attorney for SDNY to investigate.

    In other words, Mueller did EXACTLY what you claim he should have done, by NOT including this matter in his own investigation.

    Dave (445e97)

  71. Too many top lawyer bloggers are on the record now that this was a bridge to far.

    IMO, it was waaay too soon, without looking at the specifics, which we may never know.

    EPWJ (9957a2)

  72. It seems to me that many people are mad and have lost faith in the justice system, especially after the Clintons skated from justice for decades. Some people want to get even by using the same tactics to target their political enemies, while immunizing their political side. (Isn’t this the same helpless attitude people had about law during the Capone-Ness mobster years?)

    I understand this. Who hasn’t felt this helplessness or an urge to get mad or get even? In addition, daily news stories make us much more aware of what the government and the courts are doing, and produces a desire to neuter or nullify them both. Finally, some (including Trump) see little benefit in laws except to manipulate them. This attitude undermines the system even more.

    DRJ (15874d)

  73. It is unfortunate, though, because giving up on law leads us further toward lawlessness.

    DRJ (15874d)

  74. Interesting related development, that knocks down another false Trump talking point:

    Search warrant reveals Mueller’s interest in Manafort’s actions during Trump campaign

    The documents, used to obtain a search warrant in building the case against Manafort, were revealed in a court filing late Monday night. Manafort has pleaded not guilty in two federal cases, and the charges he faces do not include allegations about his time on the campaign.

    The search warrant makes clear that Mueller is also focused on Manafort’s actions connected to the campaign. The White House and others have repeatedly said that the investigation into Manafort concerns his activities before he joined Trump’s team in 2016.

    Investigators in a search warrant application last July told a judge in Virginia that they sought evidence related to Manafort’s interactions with a Russian real estate magnate and were suspicious of possible campaign finance violations.

    Specifically, the investigators sought from Manafort’s apartment records “involving any of the attendees of the June 9, 2016, meeting at Trump Tower” and anything involving Aras and Emin Agalarov, an Azerbaijani-Russian billionaire and his son tied to the meeting, the 2013 Miss Universe pageant in Moscow and to a possible earlier unsuccessful attempt to build a Trump Tower in Moscow.

    Manafort attended the meeting, which was facilitated by the Agalarovs and attended by their publicist and an employee of their company, and a Russian lawyer who was believed to be bringing revealing information about Hillary Clinton. Manafort was in the meeting, along with Donald Trump Jr. and Jared Kushner.

    Good to see that Mueller is following up on the “smoking gun” meeting specifically set-up for the purpose of recruiting the Russian government and its agents into service of the Trump campaign.

    Dave (445e97)

  75. Too many top lawyer bloggers are on the record now that this was a bridge to far.

    Have they read the warrant? Maybe top lawyer-bloggers have access the rest of us lawyer-bloggers can only dream of.

    But I doubt it.

    Ken White seems like a top lawyer-blogger to me. He also has an institutional bias against law enforcement, being a defense attorney (but not a bias that clouds his judgment, at least when it comes to the actions of prosecutors).

    Does he believe this is a bridge too far?

    Patterico (e75e6a)

  76. Democrats get off scot-free, Republicans get a body scan and anything that turns up is referred to someone for prosecution….what the heck does that have to with our constitution, oaths of office and the survival of our system?????

    /sarc

    Nevyan nailed it.

    harkin (379712)

  77. @ Nevyan (#59), who wrote:

    But hey… what do I know.

    Unless you’re actually part of the prosecution team, you know no more than what’s in the newspapers, which is a whole lot less than one needs to know to make the kind of super-confident assessments you’re purporting to make.

    Every single pro-Trump commenter here presumes that he or she knows everything important that needs to be known to form an emphatic, damning opinion.

    Not a single one of them actually does.

    Beldar (fa637a)

  78. It is unfortunate, though, because giving up on law leads us further toward lawlessness.

    The unseemly rush at all levels to absolve Hillary Clinton of wrongdoing has had a lot of unintended side effects on people’s confidence in the system.

    Too bad Trump declared her absolved at the beginning of his presidency.

    Patterico (e75e6a)

  79. It is unfortunate, though, because giving up on law leads us further toward lawlessness.

    Having a shameless liar and moral degenerate like Donald Trump as the chief executive doesn’t help, either.

    Dave (445e97)

  80. @ Nevyan (#59), who wrote:

    But hey… what do I know.

    Unless you’re actually part of the prosecution team, you know no more than what’s in the newspapers, which is a whole lot less than one needs to know to make the kind of super-confident assessments you’re purporting to make.

    Every single pro-Trump commenter here presumes that he or she knows everything important that needs to be known to form an emphatic, damning opinion.

    Not a single one of them actually does.

    Yup. This is like the hullabaloo over the Carter Page FISA application but on steroids. You don’t even need a partisan summary of the search warrant to declare it a police state tactic. The fact that it’s Trump’s lawyer is enough to opine, apparently.

    Patterico (e75e6a)

  81. Having a shameless liar and moral degenerate like Donald Trump as the chief executive doesn’t help, either.

    Quite so.

    Patterico (e75e6a)

  82. Nevyan nailed it.

    IT’S TREASON!!!!!1!!

    Patterico (e75e6a)

  83. Too bad Trump declared her absolved at the beginning of his presidency.

    Hey, it’s only prudent – he might need to bribe the Clintons to attend his next wedding too.

    Dave (445e97)

  84. IT’S LIKE A SWATTING!!!!!!!11!!!!1

    Patterico (e75e6a)

  85. The only part of any of this that astonishes me is that hatefulfeet can call Patterico an apologist for fascists while continuing to enjoy the privilege of commenting here.

    That is genuinely unfathomable to me.

    Beldar (fa637a)

  86. Patterico 4/1/2009: There’s an old phrase: “Where do I go to get my reputation back?” More relevant here is this question: Where do we go to get our election back?

    This was after the conviction of Ted Stevens, not indictment — nor merely a panty raid on Stevens’ attorney.

    But the magic ball said something different then.

    Anti-Trumpalos embrace “Name the person, and I’ll find the crime”. Trumpkins are the consistent ones, then as now.

    random viking (6a54c2)

  87. The only part of any of this that astonishes me is that hatefulfeet can call Patterico an apologist for fascists while continuing to enjoy the privilege of commenting here.

    That is genuinely unfathomable to me.

    It’s a combination of things. First, I don’t take him seriously. Second, that’s opinion. It’s a stupid opinion, but it’s still opinion. Despite swc’s claim that I have turned into LGF, I haven’t, and at most have demanded that people not tell provable lies about me, or give them a vacation for repeated distortions and false accusations combined with rudeness.

    Patterico (e75e6a)

  88. Trumpkins are the consistent ones, then as now.

    Lol

    Patterico (e75e6a)

  89. Pat,

    Ken Whites article, wish it had specifics of times a attorney client privilege was breached with outcomes.

    EPWJ (37d014)

  90. Patterico 4/1/2009

    That was after irrefutable evidence of prosecutorial wrong-doing emerged.

    There isn’t (yet) one iota of evidence of prosecutorial wrong-doing here, as this post goes to considerable lengths to explain. Rather, it appears that all proper procedures were followed, but (as the post also explains) without access to the relevant documents, it is wise to withhold final judgment (as he does).

    Dave (445e97)

  91. Does anyone remember why Hillary Rodham was FIRED, from the House impeachment committee during Nixon’s troubles.

    For advocating exactly, no not really, but on the same slippery slope, of the right of representation

    EPWJ (37d014)

  92. CNN reporting that another high-ranking White House aide, Homeland Security Advisor Tom Bossert, has resigned.

    Dave (445e97)

  93. Good morning… I think it stinks because all of this was put into play by the phony Russia Collusion Kabuki and since that hasn’t panned out, they are casting about hoping to find a crime. It is ridiculous in my estimation.

    Colonel Haiku (bf97e1)

  94. 88… as are anti-Trump Gimpinistas.

    Colonel Haiku (bf97e1)

  95. Does anyone remember why Hillary Rodham was FIRED, from the House impeachment committee during Nixon’s troubles.

    Snopes.com analyzes this claim in detail, and rates it “False”.

    Dave (445e97)

  96. Andrew McCarthy, Mark Levin among others accurately calling these actions “police state tactics.”

    NJRob (b00189)

  97. Snopes… wowzers…

    Colonel Haiku (bf97e1)

  98. If we are going after alleged campaign finance violations, when is Obama going to be jailed for turning the security off of his donation page to allow foreign donations?

    NJRob (b00189)

  99. Four pinocchios for the claim from the WaPo as well, with a review of original documents.

    Dave (445e97)

  100. The WaPo article includes a photocopy of the payment records for the committee staff, showing Clinton was paid up until the impeachment committee was disbanded.

    Dave (445e97)

  101. Attorney-client privilege is as complicated and subtle thing, something I think about and wrestle with daily because I regularly encounter slime-with-a-law-licence like Cohen who try to exploit and overuse it to hide shameful conduct.

    Cohen and Trump both insist that Cohen was acting without Trump’s knowledge. It’s awfully hard to square that assertion with a claim that the prosecutors have just seized privileged communications between attorney and client made during the course and for the purpose of the giving and receiving of legal advice & representation. Whatever else one might ultimately conclude, no rational person who understands anything about attorney-client privilege can dispute that Cohen has skated way outside any safe harbors: He’s claiming to have been acting as an independent principal, not an agent (or at least not an agent for Donald J. Trump personally), and he hasn’t just been a secret communicator with his client, he’s been an active participant in activities that go well beyond communications: In no universe is handing over $130k a “privileged communication.”

    If I were on a state bar grievance committee reviewing allegations against Cohen, I’d vote to jerk his law license simply for participating in the conspiracy to obstruct justice that’s structurally contained within the four corners of the NDA — an unconscionable, unenforceable piece of overreach that should shame even the crusty consciences of a hack like Cohen.

    Note well, you raving, frothing, lunatic Trumpkins: I’d also like to see Jim Comey and Andrew McCabe lose their law licenses. And I’d like to see Hillary Clinton wearing an orange polyester jumpsuit that can’t be described as a pants-suit, and I think her cellmates should include some of the co-principals in her own conspiracy to obstruct justice who used — and were permitted by the Lynch DoJ to use — their law licenses to help cover up their joint crimes.

    They’re all peas in a pod — people who genuinely believe that they’re above the law — which is why I continue to maintain that this photograph contains everything important that you need to know about the 2016 election. All of these people are hopelessly corrupt and have been for their entire adult lives, with the exception of Kylie Bax, the eye candy of the day as a proxy for all the women whom both Trump and Bubba have chased.

    Beldar (fa637a)

  102. Andrew McCarthy, Mark Levin among others accurately calling these actions “police state tactics.”

    Flow my tears, the policeman said.

    Having personally visited the aftermaths of search warrants and seen the smashed doors, slashed mattresses, broken walls and broken fixtures, the drawers and all their contents on the floors, the contents of kitchen cabinets and refrigerators on the floors, and no charges ever brought, color me unsympathetic.

    nk (dbc370)

  103. I guess Beldar is saying Alan Dershowitz doesn’t understand atty-client privilege.

    Colonel Haiku (bf97e1)

  104. If we are going after alleged campaign finance violations, when is Obama going to be jailed for turning the security off of his donation page to allow foreign donations?

    When the Trump administration prosecutes him, presumably. Why are you asking us?

    Dave (445e97)

  105. Dershowitz…wowzers…

    Dave (445e97)

  106. 61… damn your eyes, nk, I just crapped my pants…

    Colonel Haiku (bf97e1)

  107. Put this up if you want.

    I agree with probably 98% of what you write. There is every appearance that the warrants were issued in the regular course, and my guess is that a lot of previously acquired grand jury material (bank records primarily) had been acquired by Special Counsel about Cohen, and form a significant basis of the PC for the warrant.

    But less well understood by the masses who don’t understand the inner workings of DOJ and a USAO, is that Rosenstein’s decision to send this to the SDNY is a HUGE benefit for Trump and Cohen. It makes it much more likely that the entire matter goes away in the normal course — not in an illegitimate fashion — and Mueller’s gang loses its opportunity to pressure Cohen.

    I can explain if you want — its a matter of prosecutorial discretion and internal guidelines, i.e., I’m 99.9% certain the SDNY declines to pursue bank fraud cases that don’t have a loss of more than $1 million.

    shipwreckedcrew (56b591)

  108. Col,

    A lot of very good legal minds are going to be debating this for a while. For us non lawyers, grab the popcorn, comfy chair.

    EPWJ (37d014)

  109. If I am reading the comments correctly,those angry about this turn of events are screaming It’s not fair! and “Treason!, yet all the while, the inside knowledge necessary to make any sort of real informed opinion is not known to any of us. While people continue to point the finger at Patterico for his cautious approach to this, those same Trump loyalists cannot see how they beclown themselves with their overwrought and uniformed reaction devoid of the necessary information needed to substantiate and verify their claims. Your emotions are not that.

    Thought: If you’re sense of outrage, or unfairness or any other chest-thumping moral outrage is driving your response, maybe sit this one out until the critical information needed to make such an opinion of moral outrage is actually known.

    Dana (023079)

  110. Any lawyer who spends $130,000 of his own money to buy the silence of one of Trump’s “ladies”….. and then expects Donald to somehow pay him back, is an attorney you might want to avoid hiring.

    But his payback did arrive early yesterday.

    noel (b4d580)

  111. Federal attorney-client privilege is according to the common law. There has always been a future crime/fraud exception. Which means what you think it means. If an attorney and his client discuss how they can do something which is a crime or a fraud, those communications are not privileged.

    nk (dbc370)

  112. One more of those only the best types he hires, noel.

    Dana (023079)

  113. Yes. That’s right Dana. Like his campaign manager. And his other one. The best.

    noel (b4d580)

  114. I very much agreed with the expert on FNC last night who said there is a great likelihood that there is something to the seizures, as you are strongly implying, Pat. I also strongly agree with that guest when he said the aggressive move by SDNY was highly unusual and most likely did not meet the test for such a thing. There are specific protocols in place and the guest was highly skeptical that the Cohen matter rose to the levels required to instigate seizures as executed.

    It is not a small thing that the “regular” DOJ now has a criminal matter involving someone this close to DJT, with access to privileged communications. I do not trust for a nanosecond the process to vet or “clean” evidence to avoid the use or disclosure of such. The potential for exposition of this information almost certainly far, far outweighs the need for the seizures in the first place. A very real constitutional issue has been created. To what end? Who and what are being served? Us? Justice? I have severe doubts.

    Ed from SFV (1752e1)

  115. There has always been a future crime/fraud exception. Which means what you think it means. If an attorney and his client discuss how they can do something which is a crime or a fraud, those communications are not privileged.

    THEY SHOULD CALL IT THE HEINRICH HIMMLER FASCIST HOLOCAUST TREASONOUS SWATTING EXCEPTION!!!1!

    Dave (445e97)

  116. Frankly, I see nothing that points to the raid being legit. Mueller has tried to use a cut out by going through the deep state lackey Rosenstein, and using buddies in the NY Attorney’s office. Probable cause is not hard to create, and it stinks right along with the rest of the offal that has been Mueller’s falsely labeled investigation.

    He hasn’t found any collusion, so it’s time to shut him down. At this point, Mueller’s activities are in violation of the Special Counsel law and both Mueller and Rosenstein should be in the dock.

    Quartermaster (fa73fd)

  117. Will Cohen roll over?

    AZ Bob (9a6ada)

  118. Dave: That was after irrefutable evidence of prosecutorial wrong-doing emerged.

    Actually Dave, there was no prosecutorial wrong-doing, as you allege. You should follow your own advice and “withhold judgment.” Joseph Bottini and James Goeke were cleared and even had their attorneys fees reimbursed. In the public attorney business, this is known as “professional courtesy.”

    Yes, it’s wise to “withhold judgment” until after the election has been thrown. The idea that there is bias among federal prosecutors is so far fetched. We should have trust, and let the chips fall where they may. The eventual result of all this is simply an unintended consequence, I’m sure.

    random viking (6a54c2)

  119. The John Doe crimes have already been mentioned, but here’s another partisan prosecutor trying to destroy a man for being a political adversary.

    https://www.americanthinker.com/blog/2018/04/yes_rogue_prosecutors_do_try_to_take_out_elected_leaders_one_of_them_may_face_jail.html

    For those who want to continue to pretend that these actions should be seen in the best possible light, go ahead.

    NJRob (b00189)

  120. It seems logical to assume that if the threshold for taking such action is so high, with layers of standards to be met and approved, that this would indeed have to have met that threshold, no? Also, overlooked in the cries of unfair or double-standard, is that Geoffrey S. Berman, who oversaw the raid and is in charge of the criminal investigation into Cohen, is not only a Trump supporter who donated to his campaign, but is also one of Trump’s appointees.

    Dana (023079)

  121. @ nk (#61): You left out “United States vs. $130,000 in U.S. Currency (Singles Wrapped in a G-String).”

    Beldar (fa637a)

  122. Once again, all of these Republicans prosecutors who Trump appointed are out to get him…. by investigating his fixer (I mean, lawyer). More of those “best” hires I guess.

    noel (b4d580)

  123. Dana,

    where’s the Russian collusion that created this witchhunt?

    NJRob (b00189)

  124. Will someone make fun of me for my typos? Obviously, I have not been hard enough on myself. Bad boy, noel. Idiot.

    noel (b4d580)

  125. Ah, so Trump should only appoint people who will do his bidding, is that the guidance? Wasn’t sure how the game is played. Thanks for clearing that up, noel.

    random viking (6a54c2)

  126. No, Random Viking. Trump should just recognize that he created his “witch hunt”. He hired them. You know. The “best”.

    noel (b4d580)

  127. Will Cohen roll over?

    Highly doubtful, IMO. He has probably been promised a pardon if he takes the fall for Trump.

    We all know what Donald Trump’s word is worth, but in this case I imagine Cohen has some leverage since he knows where the bodies serohw are buried, where the money has been laundered, what income has been concealed from the IRS, etc.

    Dave (445e97)

  128. noel, gonna take a wild stab, but I’m guessing you’ve never hired a staff of thousands. But, if you had, I’m sure every one of them would be top notch.

    random viking (6a54c2)

  129. “Not much more than that is known as of this writing. There’s a lot of speculation and anonymously sourced reporting that it had to do with bank fraud, or the payment to Stormy Daniels, or something else. The seizure of records should have followed applicable procedures for searching an attorney’s office records to protect legitimate attorney-client privilege.

    Regardless, seizing the records of the personal attorney to the president is extraordinary, and reflects a number of points I’ve been arguing since the day Robert Mueller was appointed.

    The process of investigation is the reverse of what it should be. Mueller has identified the targets, being Trump and those around him, and then set out to find the crimes. Being near Trump means you will be subject to scrutiny to find a crime. In some cases that scrutiny may be minimal, in other cases, such as Paul Manafort, it could mean substantial criminal charges that likely never would have been brought but for Manafort being connected to Trump’s campaign for a relatively short time period.

    That’s the context to understand what likely happened with Cohen. Assuming the reports are accurate that this was a referral from Mueller and did not originate with the U.S. Attorney’s Office, it means that Mueller subjected Cohen to scrutiny and found something. What that something is we don’t yet know. If it had to do with alleged Russian collusion, or even Russia, it’s likely Mueller would have kept the matter in his investigation, just as he did with Manafort’s Ukrainian connections.”

    —- William Jacobson

    https://legalinsurrection.us8.list-manage.com/track/click?u=ebe2d440ad94d3d798160eb01&id=2b8435f3d2&e=2a2e1238e3

    Colonel Haiku (bf97e1)

  130. Once again, all of these Republicans prosecutors who Trump appointed are out to get him…

    How was he supposed to know they were all closet Nazis?

    And what about Chappaquiddick?

    Dave (445e97)

  131. “Deep state” is the new “virtue signaling” – a term that people use to sound smart and savvy, but really just makes them sound like they read InfoWars.

    Leviticus (efada1)

  132. When Dislike for Trump Overrules Constitutional Issues Gone Wild…

    You go, noel

    Colonel Haiku (bf97e1)

  133. Random Viking says, “Ah, so Trump should only appoint people who will do his bidding…”?

    I believe that Trump has made it “perfectly clear” that he wanted his Attorney General to do just that. Or why be angry at a recusal? Really. Why should that matter?

    noel (b4d580)

  134. Beldar,

    You’ve accused other lawyers of being criminals, now assuming facts about the case of a porn star trying for the better part of a decade to blackmail someone solely for money

    IMO, not only shreds what little credibility you may have left with those you are trying to convince, you again, drag Pat, DRJ, Dustin, people I intensely care about, down the gutter of your unfounded accusations given in your capacity as a member of the Texas bar and have abused the trust people, including me, have had in you over the years, you are better than this

    You’ve let your anger overcome your considerable judgement.

    This whole trump thing isn’t going away, the republicans are not losing the house, trump will be easily re-elected and this probe may go on till trump dies decades after he leaves office.

    EPWJ (37d014)

  135. Entrenched, self-serving Bureaucracy…

    Colonel Haiku (bf97e1)

  136. Actually I have hired a few people in my life, some good and others not so good. But I did not manage to hire the entire deep state like the Donald has.

    noel (b4d580)

  137. by investigating his fixer (I mean, lawyer).

    Cohen’s own attorney described Cohen as a “fixer”.

    nk (dbc370)

  138. Oh brother, EPJW. Who do you think you’re fooling?

    Leviticus (efada1)

  139. *EPWJ

    Leviticus (efada1)

  140. Cohen has done more fixin’ than a geriatric veterinarian.

    noel (b4d580)

  141. IMO, not only shreds what little credibility you may have left with those you are trying to convince, you again, drag Pat, DRJ, Dustin, people I intensely care about, down the gutter of your unfounded accusations given in your capacity as a member of the Texas bar and have abused the trust people, including me, have had in you over the years,

    Take it back.

    Patterico (e75e6a)

  142. Apparently not everyone believes this.
    https://reason.com/volokh/2018/04/10/why-the-fbi-raid-on-michael-cohens-offic

    -{
    It’s not every day that the FBI raids an attorney’s office, home, and hotel room, seizing documents, computers, phones and other materials. It should thus go without saying that it’s not every day that the FBI conducts such a raid on the President’s private attorney. Yet that’s where we are.

    As Popehat’s Ken White explains, “this is a big deal.” Raids of attorney offices are highly disfavored. (See the relevant provisions of the U.S. Attorneys’ Manual.) Approval for such raids is not easily obtained. In order to justify such a step, not only do investigators have to make a showing that crimes likely occurred, they also have to provide reasons why other methods of obtaining information — such as subpoenas for documents and the like — are liikely to be insufficient. Magistrate judges also don’t approve these sorts of things lightly.}-

    Karl Lembke (e37f42)

  143. Leviticus hates virtue signaling, and wants everyone to know that.

    random viking (6a54c2)

  144. unfounded accusations

    The public record (Cohen’s own statements and the text of the NDA released in the lawsuit against him) already demonstrate that Cohen intervened in his client’s most intimate personal affairs without (Cohen claims) a word of authorization or consultation.

    If your attorney secretly contacted your ex-girlfriend, falsely represented himself to her as acting on your behalf, and started trying to purchase explicit information and evidence about your past sexual relations without asking you or even telling you, you wouldn’t consider that just a tad … unethical?

    Yet that is precisely what Cohen himself claims to have done.

    You might have a better case if you argued that Trump was the only “victim” of Cohen’s malfeasance, and as such, is the only one entitled to bring an ethics complaint against him.

    On the other hand, I would think the bar has an interest in the integrity and ethics of its members, even when the unethical behavior is sanctioned with a wink and a nod from the client.

    Dave (445e97)

  145. I’ll add that historically. Mueller and his team are known for having ‘expansive’ definitions of laws when it happens to suit them.

    And of course, if he was to refer something to the US Attorney of Ny, who was then to set it aside, imagine the week of news coverage.

    Ingot9455 (bc8dc7)

  146. @76 harkin

    Mueller is a heart prosecutor specialist. He saw something suspicious on the full body scan and referred it to a brain prosecutor specialist.

    Pinandpuller (4f3488)

  147. Interesting, and I’ll have to think about what it means, but http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/us-attorney-trump-appointee-recused-michael-cohen-investigation/story?id=54365546 says Berman recused himself. It’s not clear who authorized the raid in his absence.

    aphrael (3f0569)

  148. I’m confidant that Spanky’s Cohen is one fine, upstanding attorney… just like “Jimmy” McGill.

    Tillman (a95660)

  149. Timing people. Timing.

    Bong Long (5a4596)

  150. harkin

    Granted, Cohen is analogous with the girl in Boston being treated against her will.

    Pinandpuller (4f3488)

  151. Mueller is taking this one step closer to Hitlerizing America. He should be burned to a crisp.

    mg (9e54f8)

  152. Pat,

    Sure, why not

    EPWJ (37d014)

  153. Lawyers should be the first holes walking the plank.

    mg (9e54f8)

  154. This was not Mueller’s doing. He may have gotten the ball rolling, but didn’t approve of the search – Spanky’s own appointees did. Trump has hoisted himself by his own incompetent and corrupt petard, and all the Trumpalos are crying foul about it. It’s absurd.

    Tillman (a95660)

  155. Patterico, July 2008: “In fairness, these charges must be proved against Sen. Stevens but if they are, good riddance. It’s always a good time to sweep out corruption, and I hope everyone in Congress, government and business gets the message.”

    Oct, 2008: Stevens convicted.
    Nov, 2008: Stevens narrowly loses election.

    Patterico, Apr, 2009: “There’s an old phrase: “Where do I go to get my reputation back?” More relevant here is this question: Where do we go to get our election back?”

    Mar, 2010: Obamacare passes by 1 vote.

    Patterico, 2016 to present day: Repeal Obamacare!!! Why won’t Trump do that?!

    Patterico, Apr 2018: “You’ve fallen for the propaganda.”

    Nov, 2018: Republicans lose Congress.
    Nov, 2020: Democrat wins presidential election.

    Mar, 2022: All illegals become citizens. Borders are opened to anyone without vetting. Judge Van Jones appointed to the Supreme Court, etc….

    Patterico, April 2022: “Why won’t anybody do something about the border?!!!!!”

    random viking (cea31b)

  156. You know what’s a bad precedent? Paying somebody $130,000 not to talk about how they were screwed by Trump. What if every American demanded that? Where would Trump find the money?

    nk (dbc370)

  157. Our concerns are based on the following:

    1) Extraordinary actions need to be based on extraordinary proof. To date, Mueller has, how can I put this mildly, been a bit underwhelming in his ability to produce actual evidence of actual crimes. So far, one might argue, his investigation has created more crimes than it has uncovered. When most of your charges are about “lying” to investigators about non-crimes, there is a problem.

    2) There certainly does appear to be a double standard in investigating Trump and well, everyone else. Just yesterday, Loretta Lynch admitted to discussing “matters of the day” with Clinton on the Tarmac, not just grand kids and golf. Oh well. I mean, what could be wrong with that?

    3) I recognize there are “layers” to approving an extraordinary action such as raiding the lawyer of the president. The problem there is that I also assumed there were many “layers’ to getting a FISA warrant against an American citizen, and that using dossiers generated by the opposing party was not one of them. I also assumed that, if hacking of the DNC was going to be investigated, the investigators would be allowed access to the equipment that was hacked. I assumed someone under investigation would actually be questioned in a more formal manner than Clinton ever was.
    So let’s just say my trust in the system is at a bit of an ebb. And what might actually restore it would be some transparency in the process.

    4) The prevailing theory of the crime appears to be as follows: Trump slept with Stormy Daniels (not a crime). Cohen paid Stormy some money and had her sign an NDA (not a crime). Cohen paid that out of his own money (not a crime). Trump may, we don’t know, have paid Cohen back from some campaign funds (Is this a crime? No idea. Probably hard to prove). I would note the words “Russia” and “election tampering” appear no where in that statement, and that seems to be a very slender reed on which to justify Mueller’s investigatory actions.

    You being a prosecutor and all, I defer to your judgement on this, naturally. But from the outside, it would seem that we have some very justifiable concerns. So, as to your suggestion we all just settle down, I say, no thank you. I intend to remain unsettled until this matter is better resolved and intend to continue voicing my justifiable concerns.

    Cassandra (a815b9)

  158. 154… that’s not fair, Random Viking. Funny, yes… fair? No.

    Colonel Haiku (bf97e1)

  159. Ken White seems like a top lawyer-blogger to me. He also has an institutional bias against law enforcement, being a defense attorney (but not a bias that clouds his judgment, at least when it comes to the actions of prosecutors).

    Ken White is a former federal prosecutor. He drank of the Kool-Aid for years. He is on the other side of the aisle now, but that doesn’t mean he shed all of the views he held when he was carrying the big stick for the feds.

    Anon Y. Mous (6cc438)

  160. Oh wait… a well-educated commenter told me that complaining about fairness is for LLLLLosers, so forget that.

    Colonel Haiku (bf97e1)

  161. Cohen says he is Trump’s fixer. How many women did he pay off? If there was more than Stormy and they all were paid in the run up to the election, then that would be a good case (much better than the Edwards’ case) of an FEC violation.

    Does that explain why the NY US Attorney is involved? Edwards was indicted in NC where he lived and his campaign headquarters was located. Trump and his campaign are in New York.

    DRJ (15874d)

  162. DRJ

    At what point is it a criminal act? Where is the criminal act?

    EPWJ (37d014)

  163. The Torquemada Tango continues

    Colonel Haiku (bf97e1)

  164. The nyc attorney refused, recused himself, it went to a notorious magistrate left over from the Obama administration.

    Popcorn comfy chair

    EPWJ (37d014)

  165. @ EPWJ (#133): Normally I don’t read your stuff. I figured out, from it being quoted by others, that you’ve directed a comment specifically to me today.

    So now I’ve read it, and I’m reminded why I usually don’t read your stuff: I can’t understand what the heck you’re talking about. If you hold our host, DRJ, and Dustin in high regard, that’s good; so do I, and I really, truly have no clue whether or why you think I’ve somehow dragged, or am trying to drag, any of them into any gutter.

    If you want to have a civil conversation about something I’ve written, I suggest you start by quoting what I’ve written that you want to talk about, and that you then explain in reasonably grammatical sentences what it is you disagree with, and your bases for that disagreement.

    Beldar (fa637a)

  166. 4) The prevailing theory of the crime appears to be as follows: Trump slept with Stormy Daniels (not a crime). Cohen paid Stormy some money and had her sign an NDA (not a crime). Cohen paid that out of his own money (not a crime). Trump may, we don’t know, have paid Cohen back from some campaign funds (Is this a crime? No idea. Probably hard to prove).

    This is good, but you need to fluff it up some more.

    Trump arrived in a taxi (not a crime). Trump took the elevator (not a crime). Trump ordered room service (not a crime). Trump and Stormy watched Cinemax (not a crime).

    Davethulhu (fab944)

  167. By the way, I must say I greatly appreciate the nuance Patterico shows people who disagree with him – either we agree, and are rational, thoughtful people, or we disagree with him and are irrational, subhuman, frothing Trump supporters.

    It must be quite tiresome to have just two categories of people in this world.

    For me, I have grave concerns as to the propriety of this raid – the unusual aggression it displays is a matter of great concern in and of itself. Again, extraordinary actions require extraordinary circumstances, which at least superficially, do not appear to be present in this instance. And yes, I we can always fall back on the excuse that “we don’t know what they know” but to date, whenever Mueller is involved, when we finally know what they know it turns out to be…unimpressive.

    Cassandra (a815b9)

  168. #165 – what is the theory of the crime? Please, illuminate for us.

    Cassandra (a815b9)

  169. Cassandra:

    Cohen paid Stormy some money and had her sign an NDA (not a crime). Cohen paid that out of his own money (not a crime).

    It could be a crime if he borrowed the funds as a home equity loan but did not use the funds for that purpose. That might be bank fraud and/or wire fraud:

    Two of the potential crimes being investigated — bank fraud and wire fraud — suggest prosecutors have some reason to think Cohen may have misled bankers about why he was using particular funds or may have improperly used banks in the transfer of funds.

    Cohen has acknowledged facilitating a $130,000 payment in October 2016 to Daniels, who claims she had a sexual relationship with Trump in 2006.

    Cassandra also said:

    Trump may, we don’t know, have paid Cohen back from some campaign funds (Is this a crime? No idea. Probably hard to prove).

    It could be an FEC violation:

    Those two things together — that a Trump Organization email address was used to facilitate the payment and that the payment was linked to the campaign — would constitute a legal violation. (On “60 Minutes,” Avenatti reiterated his sense that the timing of the agreement with Daniels made it very unlikely that it was unrelated to the campaign.) The email from the bank to Cohen does not prove that company money was used to pay Daniels, which Noble told us last month would itself be illegal. Just using that email address is its own problem.

    Common Cause‘s Paul Ryan (himself a former lawyer with the Campaign Legal Center) noted on Twitter that the use of Trump Organization resources probably violates 11 CFR 114.2(f).

    Allegations of bank fraud, wire fraud, and campaign finance violations are potential crimes that give rise to subpoenas, but much of the evidence has already been gathered as shown at the link.

    DRJ (15874d)

  170. It’s been said that the people objecting don’t know much, if anything, about the information which generated the raid.
    I submit we do. The DoJ and the feebs in particular have shown the rest of us that trusting them is a very, very bad idea. So, in looking at this from the outside, the way to bet is that this is a screw job. “On form” as the Brits say.
    I recall the feebs trying to frame Richard Jewell–which they wouldn’t have done if they’d thought he was really guilty–and Bubba Rent-a-Cop outsmarting them. Couple of guys got some time off and, according to reports, got a standing O when they returned. Or maybe that was the guy who screwed Ted Stevens. Hard to keep up.

    Meantime, we’ve been told there are layers and layers before getting this kind of authorization. But nobody’s told us who enforces the requirements. On form, nobody in this case.
    See, thing is, once you’ve convinced us you’re crooked, insisting you’re not doesn’t get you very far.

    Richard Aubrey (10ef71)

  171. I don’t think the ultimate taregtis even Trump.

    If this has something to do with the $130,000 paid to Stephanie Clifford/Stormy Daniels (the false name not too imaginative – her first name starts with the same two letters of the alphabet, and teh second name is pretty Anglo Saxon, like her real name = name of her first husband only it starts with a D instead of a C)

    If this has something to do with the $130,000 , I don’t think Trump had anything to do with it. The money was probably pout up some people in Nevada, who tried to indebt Trump to them back in 2006 by finding women for him, even if maybe he wasn’t looking for them.

    If Trump didn’t, this is not acampaign contribution; it is a an independent expenditure (if it was made because of the election. If for some other reason, it sin’t even that)

    shipwreckedcrew says that if Trump (agreed in advance to actually) reimburse him it would be loan (and theer could be some issues with that)

    The bank fraud charges are in 3 felonies a day territory – probably some (in this case probably non-material) false statement he signed on a loan application. Michael Cohen took out a home equity loan to pay the $130,000. It could be he signed that it was unincumbered or something. Or misstated his income. Whenever the FBI investigates someone they always look at the loans he took out. The loan was probably quickly paid back, and the real question is who reimbursed him.

    Sammy Finkelman (02a146)

  172. There are many types of people, Cassandra, but Patterico specifically said he is talking to people like this:

    And if you’re hellbent on assuming, without knowing any facts, that this is a Nazi move — the Gestapo in action; treason before our very eyes — then you’ve gone waaaaay off the rails. You’ve fallen for the propaganda. You’re willing to tar dozens of professionals as Deep State “traitors” based on the propaganda offered by an orange-haired clown and his soulless dunce confederates.

    The only time anyone claimed there are just two kinds of people was before the election when some Trump supporters claimed it was a BINARY CHOICE election, so we either voted for Trump or Hillary. Save your anger for them, Cassandra.

    DRJ (15874d)

  173. There is a real problem here with attorney client privilege. There are a lot of lawyers who could not be trusted not to leak anything or inform someone. Especially anyone with any kind of political ties.

    And then there’s the question, how did Hillary get so much attorney client privilege?

    But I think there is probably something here to find out (but not involving Trump) and I hope they do.

    Sammy Finkelman (02a146)

  174. “Also, overlooked in the cries of unfair or double-standard, is that Geoffrey S. Berman, who oversaw the raid and is in charge of the criminal investigation into Cohen, is not only a Trump supporter who donated to his campaign, but is also one of Trump’s appointees.” Dana

    I find this line of logic quite comical. The hidden assumption is naturally, that a Trump appointee would be subservient to Trump. Couldn’t the appointee perhaps be independent, or cowed by others, or afraid that he himself might face investigation if he didn’t go along? Again we see how simple duality of thinking hampers appropriate conclusions.

    So you are saying, in effect, approval of the raid automatically proves the necessity of the raid. I disagree with that logic.

    Cassandra (a815b9)

  175. Nullification is much easier than analyzing the law and the facts.

    DRJ (15874d)

  176. There are a lot of lawyers who could not be trusted not to leak anything or inform someone.

    Yes. Cohen. He went out and blabbed everything.

    nk (dbc370)

  177. A Special Response Team from the FBI entered Hillary Rodham Clinton’s lawyer’s homes in predawn hours Tuesday morning. A spokesman from the SDNY office said the lawyers were served immunity agreements and breakfast in bed with fresh squeezed orange juice. AP

    Pinandpuller (ab37f4)

  178. Reports say Berman recused himself, Cassandra.

    DRJ (15874d)

  179. Better to blame the Deep State.

    DRJ (15874d)

  180. 177 should be directed at Dana.

    BuDuh (fc15db)

  181. IMO “duality of thinking” got us into this Trump mess. BINARY CHOICE!!

    DRJ (15874d)

  182. All the straw men. Watch where you throw your cigarette butts.

    nk (dbc370)

  183. 168.

    It could be a crime if he borrowed the funds as a home equity loan but did not use the funds for that purpose.

    Most home equity loans don’t actyually requirre taht the money be used for the home. But maybe this was an old fashioned bank. I suppose you could claim wire fraud if he said anything untrue to the bank, but this is 3 felonies a day territory. It could also be something slightly more serious – say if his wife was a co-owner of the home and, in order to get the loan quickly, or, in order not to discuss it with her, he forged her signature on any documents. (confident that she wouldn’t miss the money)

    Trump may, we don’t know, have paid Cohen back from some campaign funds (Is this a crime? No idea. Probably hard to prove).

    Probably only an accounting error, unless this is consideered NOT campaign related.

    Those two things together — that a Trump Organization email address was used to facilitate the payment

    Cohen could owe the campaign money for the use of its computers maybe. All and any other personal email would be in the same category. It’s de minimus.

    Sammy Finkelman (02a146)

  184. DRJ !!!!

    JD (6a180b)

  185. 175. Did Cohen blab something he was bound not to do?

    It may be the fact he didn’t say who reimbursed him was one cause of the raid.

    Sammy Finkelman (02a146)

  186. Hi JD! What a pleasure to know you are here.

    DRJ (15874d)

  187. “JONAH GOLDBERG: The Cohen Raid: Mueller had better be right. “I’ve talked to several lawyers with DOJ experience. There are serious and strict guidelines against doing anything like this at the DOJ and FBI, particularly when the subject/target has been cooperating. They — and a judge — must have seen something significant to go ahead with this. Back on the first hand, I think Hugh Hewitt is right that this is a politically unprecedented move to go after the president’s lawyer and, by extension, the president’s private papers. Which means that whatever warranted this had better be big enough and clear enough to the public to justify such a move, or a lot of people are going to have egg on their faces.”

    The problem is, many, many people won’t believe claims that nonpartisan officials using meticulous procedures are acting fairly. There’s been too much egg on too many faces already. But the potential consequences here go beyond embarrassment. There can’t even be a shadow of a possibility that someone is overturning an election via bureaucratic war, or there will be hell to pay, and I don’t just mean embarrassment for a few top bureaucrats.

    UPDATE: Confirmed: Rod Rosenstein signed off on the Michael Cohen raid.”

    https://pjmedia.com/instapundit/293709/

    Colonel Haiku (bf97e1)

  188. 4. Hi (ffbb3b) — 4/9/2018 @ 10:26 pm

    The difference in how the Clinton email investigation and this is so stark that I don’t even know how to describe it. No sane person would describe them as using the same SOP.

    I noticed.

    Clinton’s lawyers were even allowed to hang on to classified information for awhile.

    The difference is I suppose if they decide to be suspicious, and doubt teh word of the lawyer(s.)

    Sammy Finkelman (02a146)

  189. Actually, Sammy, the purpose of a home equity loan can affect the bank requirements and documentation.

    DRJ (15874d)

  190. I didn’t know that David Kendall’s home and office had been raided regarding destruction of Hillary’s emails
    This is very interesting.
    Oh. Wait. Its Michael Cohen.
    Pretty soon the Democrats and NeverTrumpers will have successfully won the lawfare.
    No one will be able to work for Trump or the Administration without being destroyed personally, financially.
    Lady Justice is no longer blind and her boobs are on the scale.

    Yesterday the pundits were talking about illegal campaign contributions, but no one noted the giant in kind and real contributions made to Obama and Hillary by Google and Facebook of free offices and free access to data. That had to be worth 10’s of millions

    Steveg (6e6b4c)

  191. 175. Did Cohen blab something he was bound not to do?

    Yes. The rule about preserving the confidences and secrets of your client is much broader than the attorney-client privilege. You don’t discuss your client’s business. Even if the whole world does already know it.

    nk (dbc370)

  192. If Cohen (aka the “Fixer”) did pay other alleged Trump paramours, the obvious next question is the source of the funds he used to pay them. I suspect that is part of the information that could not be determined solely from subpoenaed bank records and why a search might be authorized.

    DRJ (15874d)

  193. That federal judge in HI said If any other president did what Trump did it would have been legal. That feels like what’s going on here.

    Pinandpuller (ab37f4)

  194. Alan Dershowittz – one of the most respected LIBERAL law professors in the country – thinks this stinks.

    https://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2018/04/09/dershowitz_on_cohen_if_this_were_hillary_clinton_aclu_would_freak_out_at_overzealous_mueller.html

    An L.A. County Deputy D.A. seriously infected with TDS thinks it is just peachy-keen, because…well…well…because it hurts Trump. Hmmmm….who to trust on this?…A tough one!…:>)

    Bill Saracino (78f41f)

  195. 40. Dave (445e97) — 4/10/2018 @ 1:27 am

    but if evidence seized shows that Trump was in the loop, anything illegal that Cohen did on his behalf becomes Trump’s problem too.

    If, say, Michael Cohen forged his wife’s signature, that would be Trump’s fault?

    Trump has said that he had nothing to do with this payoff, and asked why it was done said “ask Michael Cohen” why he did it. He refused to answer a reporter’s question if there existed a fund MC could tap (but if there existed such a fund, and it had $130,000, in it why would he take out a personal loan??)

    Superficially it kind of looks like Donald Trump orchestrated this, but it actually doesn’t make sense.

    I think it’s some other clients of Michael Cohen who put up the money. the ele3ction is connected because that was when Stormy Daniels story could get the most publicity. It wasn’t Trump who was so afraid of that.

    Sammy Finkelman (02a146)

  196. dershowitz_on_cohen_if_this_were_hillary_clinton_aclu_would_freak_out_at_overzealous_mueller.html

    Well, of course. That would affect people sympathetic to the ACLU.

    But actually there may be soemthing here to find out. And Hillary’s alwyers should not have been trusted.

    Sammy Finkelman (02a146)

  197. People who worked with Bill Clinton (like the McDougals, Vince Foster, etc.) also were incarcerated or had their lives destroyed, steveg. It isn’t the Party, it’s also the character of the leader that leads to results like this.

    DRJ (15874d)

  198. Democrats often forgive any behavior associated with covering up affairs, even criminal behavior.

    DRJ (15874d)

  199. Stinks like mackerel.

    Colonel Haiku (bf97e1)

  200. Some of you would like to think that all of those Republican investigators at the FBI and DOJ are the evil-doers. At the same time, neither the guy who ran the fake university nor his “fixer” lawyer could possibly have their hands dirty. The Donald, who once described himself as “greedy, greedy, greedy”. No, he couldn’t possibly be the problem.

    Mental gymnastics.

    noel (b4d580)

  201. Republicans have learned to ignore the immorality of affairs after the Clinton impeachment, and Trump is proof. But if Cohen broke the law to cover up Trump’s affair, is that ok? If so, there is no difference between a Republican and a Democrat.

    DRJ (15874d)

  202. Dave @143

    If your attorney secretly contacted your ex-girlfriend, falsely represented himself to her as acting on your behalf, and started trying to purchase explicit information and evidence about your past sexual relations without asking you or even telling you, you wouldn’t consider that just a tad … unethical?

    More. Let the ex think that he was paying her money coming from gthe client and produce a contract that he is supposed to sign – all without telling the client, who never sees or signs the contract.

    I have no idea though what kind of ethical violation this might be.

    Sammy Finkelman (02a146)

  203. All the belief in the good faith, stalwart nature of Mueller on the part of some will not freshen that air.

    Colonel Haiku (bf97e1)

  204. I know the lawyers here will disagree, but to attempt to impeach Trump for simple obstruction, when there is no real underlying crime, will fail. And it will fail on multiple levels. Not only will the Senate GOP not go along, but the people who voted for him will, correctly, view it as an attempted coup and will support not only Trump but any action he takes to return the favor.

    Watergate wasn’t about obstruction. It was about bugging the Watergate and THEN attempting to cover it up. This here is just about circling the wagons against a fishing expedition. Unless there is PROOF that Trump colluded with Russia to change the election results, there is no underlying crime.

    Even Clinton’s lies had underlying behavior that people could point to. Something to cover up. Here, there is nothing but the refusal to give the coup plotters the time of day.

    But,I am sure that people who live and breathe legal fumes all day will see this differently,. They should consider that their worldview is outside the public mainstream.

    Kevin M (752a26)

  205. And note that I don’t like Trump. But I like bullsh1t less.

    Kevin M (752a26)

  206. Bill Saracino:

    An L.A. County Deputy D.A. seriously infected with TDS thinks it is just peachy-keen, because…well…well…because it hurts Trump. Hmmmm….who to trust on this?…A tough one!…:>)

    The first three sentences of Patterico’s post:

    I have a very firm stance on the propriety of the raid on the office, home, and hotel room of Donald Trump’s lawyer.

    You ready? Here it is: I have no idea whether it was a proper action.

    Being blinded by anger is not good.

    DRJ (15874d)

  207. Mueller will take any old Staw Man before he burns any witches.

    Pinandpuller (ab37f4)

  208. IMO there is no basis to impeach. But Trump and his people seem to be doing their best to make it possible.

    DRJ (15874d)

  209. Is anyone actually surprised by this? One only has to look at the history of Meuller to understand that this has always been his M.O. And he’s always gotten his man: by hook or by crook. And don’t tell me it wasn’t Meuller’s doing, it all came about because Meuller whispered sour nothings in the ear of a federal prosecutor.

    Cohen, you poor sod, you’ll be telling people you don’t know a damn thing about anthrax in a couple of weeks. Given his many failings and questionable (to keep things civil) tactics employed over the course of his blighted career, employing Meuller as the special counsel is a rather curious thing to have done. But, Trumpkin!

    And “flounce”? Really? I thought you were using the term tongue in cheek. But, not. Jiminy Christmas.

    Estarcatus (d19e9c)

  210. That federal judge in HI said If any other president did what Trump did it would have been legal. That feels like what’s going on here.

    A Constitutional crisis is being created and it’s not the one that Mueller thinks it is.

    Kevin M (752a26)

  211. Presidents have lawyers to help them navigate legal issues. They have foreign policy advisers to help them with foreign policy. And they have military advisers to help them make good military decisions.

    Where has Trump failed? His judicial nominees have succeeded because he outsourced them to The Federalist, but his everyday legal decisions have been lacking. Either he has poor advisers or he doesn’t take advice because he thinks he is smarter. Or both. My bet is both.

    DRJ (15874d)

  212. So Cohen likes to do the dirty work without telling the boss. Plausible deniability?

    But….. ignorance of the lawyer is no excuse.

    noel (b4d580)

  213. > I find this line of logic quite comical. The hidden assumption is naturally, that a Trump appointee would be subservient to Trump.

    That’s really not the presumption at all. All you need to presume is that a Trump appointee would *not harbor partisan bias against Trump*, because otherwise Trump wouldn’t have hired him. That is: it makes it less likely that the person in question abandoned normal procedure in order to pursue a baseless witch hunt.

    aphrael (e0cdc9)

  214. They raid Cohens home and office. Now what can they use? What if they find evidence Cohen committed unrelated crimes? What about Trump’s possible crimes? Trump’s finances and taxes? What if they both are involved in a crime? What now is attorney client privilege and what isn’t?

    That has to be very complicated.

    noel (b4d580)

  215. The WaPo article includes a photocopy of the payment records for the committee staff, showing Clinton was paid up until the impeachment committee was disbanded.

    Dave (445e97) — 4/10/2018 @ 7:46 am

    Another pre first lady no show job?

    Pinandpuller (16b0b5)

  216. > Extraordinary actions need to be based on extraordinary proof.

    Absolutely agreed. But: there’s a process in place for this sort of action, which is *unusual* but not *unheard of*, and in theory it was agreed, when that process was established, that it was the correct process to use for this sort of action. It seems massively unfair to me to allege that the process is wrong just because you don’t like its use in this case.

    So I’d like to ask you:

    what do you think the process *should be* for getting a warrant to raid an attorney’s office and look at client files that you have reason to believe are not protected by attorney-client privilege? why is that process better than the one we have now?

    > So far, one might argue, his investigation has created more crimes than it has uncovered.

    That’s been a criticism of federal investigations for decades. Welcome to the club.

    > I would note the words “Russia” and “election tampering” appear no where in that statement, and that seems to be a very slender reed on which to justify Mueller’s investigatory actions.

    This isn’t about Mueller’s investigation. If it *were*, then *Mueller* would have authorized the raid. Since he referred it to the USAttorney for the SDNY, this is about something *tangential to his inevestigation* which he ran across and referred to the appropriate authorities.

    That is *precisely* the behavior expected in a situation like this.

    aphrael (e0cdc9)

  217. Having personally visited the aftermaths of search warrants and seen the smashed doors, slashed mattresses, broken walls and broken fixtures, the drawers and all their contents on the floors, the contents of kitchen cabinets and refrigerators on the floors, and no charges ever brought, color me unsympathetic.

    nk (dbc370) — 4/10/2018 @ 7:49 am

    Make Merry Maids Great Again

    Pinandpuller (16b0b5)

  218. 116.Will Cohen roll over?

    ‘Pardon me?’

    Why flip; he has a great deal of leverage over the President of the United States w/what he knows.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  219. Having personally visited the aftermaths of search warrants and seen the smashed doors, slashed mattresses, broken walls and broken fixtures, the drawers and all their contents on the floors, the contents of kitchen cabinets and refrigerators on the floors, and no charges ever brought, color me unsympathetic.

    nk (dbc370) — 4/10/2018 @ 7:49 am

    Yeah, Jim Rockford was always a hundred bucks a day PLUS expenses.

    Pinandpuller (16b0b5)

  220. They should consider that their worldview is outside the public mainstream.

    This mess boils down to the trouble with lawyers and the legal system that they have created, effectively legislating us into a state of anarchy. Well, not so much anarchy but to create such a tangled mess such that only lawyers have any possibility of having credibility in addressing it. Consequently, if the law is so convoluted it cannot be commonly understood by relatively very well educated people, we have pretty much ceased to be ruled by law and are instead ruled by the whims of court. In whose court those with the whims serve might be being slowly revealed.

    Skorcher (5b282a)

  221. If Cohen lived in California Gavin Newsome would be all over Trump’s payday lending business.

    It looks like the disposable solid rockets boosters of Daniels and Hogg have burned out and dropped into The Gulf. Can Cohen’s liquid fuel booster get the ImpeachTrump Shuttle into orbit?

    Pinandpuller (16b0b5)

  222. No, Random Viking. Trump should just recognize that he created his “witch hunt”. He hired them. You know. The “best”.

    noel (b4d580) — 4/10/2018 @ 8:26 am

    No, by NOT hiring Mueller to head the FBI. Like Tony Soprano checking with all the local divorce attorneys before Carmela.

    Pinandpuller (16b0b5)

  223. @156. Patience.

    It was 784 days from the night of the Watergate break-in [June 17, 1972] ’til the day The Big Dick resigned and flew into history [August 9, 1974.]

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  224. “Deep state” is the new “virtue signaling” – a term that people use to sound smart and savvy, but really just makes them sound like they read InfoWars.

    Leviticus (efada1) — 4/10/2018 @ 8:36 am

    How about “The Establishment”? We know that exists because they always have a candidate for president, we are told.

    Pinandpuller (16b0b5)

  225. When Dislike for Trump Overrules Constitutional Issues Gone Wild…

    You go, noel

    Colonel Haiku (bf97e1) — 4/10/2018 @ 8:36 am

    Magistrates Gone Wild! You won’t believe what they do when they think no one is looking!

    Pinandpuller (16b0b5)

  226. > Gavin Newsome would be all over Trump’s payday lending business.

    Not Newsom’s job. He’s the Lt. Governor, and basically has no actual power. That would be Xavier Becerra’s job.

    aphrael (e0cdc9)

  227. Not Newsom’s job. He’s the Lt. Governor, and basically has no actual power. That would be Xavier Becerra’s job.

    aphrael (e0cdc9) — 4/10/2018 @ 11:45 am

    Thank you mr aphrael. I was just riffing off of a GN Adam Carolla interview. But I think XB would be too busy prosecuting CA business owners for letting ICE do warrants all up in it.

    And good old GN got a taste of government overreach over his wine store so he decided to go statewide and do it to everybody.

    I hear a lot of stuff anecdotally about CA that may not be accurate, but if only part of it’s true God Bless You mr aphrael, and be well. Sincerely.

    Pinandpuller (16b0b5)

  228. DRJ wrote above (#191):

    If Cohen (aka the “Fixer”) did pay other alleged Trump paramours, the obvious next question is the source of the funds he used to pay them. I suspect that is part of the information that could not be determined solely from subpoenaed bank records and why a search might be authorized.

    Bingo. Recall, friends and neighbors, that Cohen quite deliberately structured the whole payoff cover-up using pseudonyms and front corporations, precisely to confuse any investigators — to make it harder to hold Trump accountable, in other words.

    Comes now the day when there are investigators, and they want to untangle the web that Cohen has deliberately woven to be tangled — and the investigators decide that to figure out what Cohen has done, and where the money that went to the porn star actually came from, and whether Cohen is being entirely truthful or partially truthful or lying through his teeth about that, and about whether it was with Trump’s knowledge or on his behalf, or his campaign’s behalf — the investigators actually want to look at the source documents.

    Who has access, custody & control of the source documents? Cohen. Who decided that he would be that custodian? Cohen. Who is the person who should be least surprised of all the people on earth that when investigators want to see the source documents, they serve a search warrant on Cohen?

    Cohen.

    In case it isn’t blindingly, screamingly obvious, Trump uses Cohen — an attorney — as a fixer precisely because, in the first instance, he can hide behind a fig leaf of attorney-client privilege whenever they want to simply pretend innocence. Trump demonstrated this within the past week, when, in response to questions on Air Force One about the source of the money Cohen gave to the porn star, Trump said, “You’ll have to ask Michael [Cohen]” — knowing that of course Cohen would refuse to answer any such question on grounds that it would invade attorney-client privilege. But the secondary reason to use Cohen as his fixer is that when Cohen’s actions (which aren’t privileged) or his speech with people other than Trump (which isn’t privileged) are put under the spotlight, they can scream about fascism and civil rights violations and yada yada yada — and the Trumpkins will not only swallow that, they’ll pound the table and demand another serving.

    Beldar (fa637a)

  229. The NYT:

    The F.B.I. agents who raided Michael Cohen’s office were looking for records about payments to two women who claim they had affairs with Mr. Trump, and information related to the publisher of The National Enquirer’s role in silencing one of the women.

    I

    Dana (023079)

  230. *Errata #227: That ought have read, “… whenever they want to simply pretend ignorance,” not “innocence.” (Although they may only be pretending to that too.)

    Beldar (fa637a)

  231. Haiku says, “When Dislike for Trump Overrules Constitutional Issues Gone Wild… You go, noel”

    Your analysis somehow overlooks all of the hurdles that must be overcome before a raid like that can occur. Oh those pesky facts don’t fit your narrative? Close your eyes and click your heals if you want but you aren’t going anywhere.

    noel (b4d580)

  232. @108. Dana:

    “Attorney-client privilege is dead!” Trump declared in an early morning post on Twitter.NPR.org

    Read a similar posting on another thread of this blog yesterday. Of course it’s not, but our Captain knows his audience: a nation that learned about law from watching Ben Matlock and Perry Mason. Don’t be surprised if in days ahead he manages to generate sympathy over this.

    It’s an image-over-substance era in a nation that doesn’t want to be governed but wishes to be entertained. Today’s show: old Senatorial farts badgering a hip young internet whiz. Listening to Grassley stumble through high tech lingo prepared for him to read aloud by young staffers is quaint. Wonder if he has figured out how to stop the clock from blinking on his Betamax.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  233. That would be a cool softball team name, though. And I’m inclined to agree.

    http://thefederalist.com/2018/04/10/robert-mueller-laid-trap-president-trump-marking-investigation-subject/

    Irregardless, the political class is ensuring that its diminution remain a permanent feature – only an extremely wealthy person would have as many disposable “weed carriers” be they advisers or lawyers in service of.

    urbanleftbehind (5eecdb)

  234. Attorney-Client Scamming is Dead!

    noel (b4d580)

  235. I don’t read Beldar’s comments any more… what used to be trenchant insight and commentary has devolved into strident and tedious…

    Colonel Haiku (111e13)

  236. I suppose that Columbia buddy who Comey dished classified docs, who is now his attorney, could be panty raided any day now. But, since we’re not fascist or Putinesque, we only do that sometimes, to some people.

    random viking (cea31b)

  237. noel: Your analysis somehow overlooks all of the hurdles that must be overcome before a raid like that can occur.

    Imagine all the hurdles that must be overcome to get a conviction. Just ask Ted Stevens.

    random viking (cea31b)

  238. 109. noel (b4d580) — 4/10/2018 @ 8:04 am

    109.Any lawyer who spends $130,000 of his own money to buy the silence of one of Trump’s “ladies”….. and then expects Donald to somehow pay him back, is an attorney you might want to avoid hiring.

    Maybe it was somebdy else he expected to pay him back. He;s also been accused of being involved with the National Enquirer

    Sammy Finkelman (02a146)

  239. Mule… er

    Colonel Haiku (111e13)

  240. 234… not really… I had to do that to see if it provided a big enough thrill to prompt repetitive employment. Sad to say, it did not.

    Colonel Haiku (111e13)

  241. And he’s got Deep State

    And she’s got Deep State

    But Daniel’s got the Deepest

    State of them all

    Pinandpuller (16b0b5)

  242. mueller rosenstein
    names will live in infamy
    teh Brothers Grimley

    Colonel Haiku (111e13)

  243. teh Dirty Duo
    Just two fruits vegetating
    ClintonNewsNetwork

    Colonel Haiku (111e13)

  244. In order to justify such a step, not only do investigators have to make a showing that crimes likely occurred, they also have to provide reasons why other methods of obtaining information — such as subpoenas for documents and the like — are liikely to be insufficient. Magistrate judges also don’t approve these sorts of things lightly.}-

    Karl Lembke (e37f42) — 4/10/2018 @ 8:55 am

    Mr Karl Lembke, this is your Tuesday morning predawn wake up call. It’s a new courtesy from the FBI. Please fill out a comment card, we love five stars.

    Pinandpuller (16b0b5)

  245. You know what’s a bad precedent? Paying somebody $130,000 not to talk about how they were screwed by Trump. What if every American demanded that? Where would Trump find the money?

    nk (dbc370) — 4/10/2018 @ 9:50 am

    Charley Rose, please pick up a white paging telephone.

    Harvey Weinstein…

    Pinandpuller (16b0b5)

  246. Many layers…many lawyers…Menelaus (Wrath of the People)…

    Pinandpuller (16b0b5)

  247. Did patterico just use the word “trumpkin”?

    Dude you’ve gone full Charles Johnson

    Hi (ffbb3b)

  248. “Extraordinary actions need to be based on extraordinary proof. Absolutely agreed. But: there’s a process in place for this sort of action, which is *unusual* but not *unheard of*, and in theory it was agreed, when that process was established, that it was the correct process to use for this sort of action. It seems massively unfair to me to allege that the process is wrong just because you don’t like its use in this case. So I’d like to ask you: What do you think the process *should be* for getting a warrant to raid an attorney’s office and look at client files that you have reason to believe are not protected by attorney-client privilege? why is that process better than the one we have now?”aphrael

    An excellent question. Since we have a “special” persecutor, why not have a special process? That is to say a more forthright and transparent process. What are the scope and limits of Mueller’s investigation? How about some sort acknowledgement that, with the Steele dossier, they have lost a certain element of trust and benefit of the doubt? I want to know straight up what what crimes they are alleging to justify this raid. Just a list. That would help a lot. Cohen knows. the prosecutors know. the judge knows. Why not us?

    “This isn’t about Mueller’s investigation. If it *were*, then *Mueller* would have authorized the raid. Since he referred it to the USAttorney for the SDNY, this is about something *tangential to his investigation* which he ran across and referred to the appropriate authorities.”

    Okay then, if it is tangential to Trump and the process, why the heavy handed raids of home, business, and hotel room? What are we talking about here? Is Cohen a serial killer? A flight risk? What about, I dunno, a subpoena?

    “That is *precisely* the behavior expected in a situation like this.” Well, that is where we part ways.

    Let me foist a theory on you. One way to stop a president you don’t like is to prevent confirmation of his cabinet and undersecretaries. That has been tried and partially succeeded.
    Another way to is sue and charge anyone who has any association with the administration. I mean, why would anyone want to work for Trump? And his people will spend all their time in court, defending themselves. Great way to gum up the works with lawfare.

    Which goes back to, if this is the *appearance* of what you are doing, then you had better take extraordinary measures to insure this isn’t that type of situation. We can argue about appearance, and to some, like you and Patterico, this appears perfectly fine. But to many people, this appears pretty damn bad. So, I’m saying it doesn’t HAVE to look that bad, it can be made to look a lot better with a little more public communication. Sure you won’t impact the die hards, but you might at least buy a little breathing space.

    Cassandra (a815b9)

  249. Patterico 2008 “I didn’t vote for Obama but wish him the best and hope we can all work together to see him succeed”

    Patterico 2016 “omg these trumpkin trolls, I hate trump he says mean things. I wont be tied down to the far right who will excuse everything he does. I will hold him accountable. Let me clutch my “principles” like an old lady holds her purse and use them as an excuse to basically be a democrat anymore”

    Patterico 2020 “we should give Clinton a chance. Of course she’s done somenthings I disagree with but she doesn’t say mean things on Twitter”

    Hi (ffbb3b)

  250. I submit we do. The DoJ and the feebs in particular have shown the rest of us that trusting them is a very, very bad idea. So, in looking at this from the outside, the way to bet is that this is a screw job. “On form” as the Brits say.
    I
    Richard Aubrey (10ef71) — 4/10/2018 @ 10:18 am

    If the first episode of Killing Eve is any indication, Mueller is a real dick swab, as the Brits say.

    Pinandpuller (16b0b5)

  251. Patterico just come out and say you wish Hillary had won already. This is the same cuck routine as every token “republican” on the Washington post payroll does.

    Criticize and say the Republican Party has gone too extreme, point out the most insane rhetoric as being the example of how republicans are now and how you are so much better than them, and every once in a while give a very slight dig at a democrat policy and never them personally like you do at Trump every other day.

    Hi (ffbb3b)

  252. #247

    Ding!

    Estarcatus (d19e9c)

  253. Even Clinton’s lies had underlying behavior that people could point to. Something to cover up.

    Not sure I see the distinction. Clinton was impeached for lying about an extramarital affair under oath, in testimony for a civil case that involved either sexual harassment, an unsuccessful pick-up attempt or another consensual extramarital affair, depending on what you believe. Clinton paid Jones a settlement without admitting any wrong-doing, and was never charged with a crime in connection with the encounter. The “underlying behavior” consisted of, to one degree or another, behaving like a cad. Whether the civil suit was about whipping it out in a hotel room or anything else, lying under oath is a crime, and the chief executive of the United States should be held to account for it.

    Here, there is nothing but the refusal to give the coup plotters the time of day.

    Nothing has been proven (yet), but there is plenty of evidence that Trump may have committed a number of crimes, including (but not limited to, as the lawyers like to say…):

    1) collusion with the Russians to affect the election outcome
    2) fraud and/or campaign finance violations associated with hush money payments to his serohw
    3) obstruction of justice by coercion and retaliation against the FBI director and other officials

    Trump is on videotape directing Russian intelligence agents to commit crimes on his campaign’s behalf (#1), and confessing to interference with the Russia probe (#3). There is plenty of smoke with regard to #2, but Trump is not personally implicated yet.

    So there are a number of angles that might eventually lead to impeachment.

    Dave (839341)

  254. Random Viking says, “Imagine all the hurdles that must be overcome to get a conviction. Just ask Ted Stevens.”

    Oh, I get it. Cuz someone, somewhere was once unjustly convicted, the raid on Cohen must also be unjust. Uh huh. You got me thinking.

    noel (b4d580)

  255. Did patterico just use the word “trumpkin”?

    He’s used it like forever. It’s a term of endearment. Don’t let it ruffle your skirt.

    And if you’re going to directly quote him, make sure they are actual direct quotes. To do otherwise is out of bounds.

    random viking (6a54c2)

  256. Actually, Sammy, the purpose of a home equity loan can affect the bank requirements and documentation.

    DRJ (15874d) — 4/10/2018 @ 10:40 am

    The Jane Doe Crain College Fund dba The Spearmint Rhino.

    Pinandpuller (16b0b5)

  257. Hi (ffbb3b) — 4/10/2018 @ 1:38 pm

    Enjoy your time here. I have a feeling it will be brief.

    :)

    Dave (839341)

  258. No, noel. People are unjustly prosecuted all the time. But, certain people here seem to think that unjust prosecutions based on political motives happen like never ever. But, you’re not one of those, right?

    random viking (6a54c2)

  259. No, Random Viking. I simply think that the hurdles to getting authorization for a raid on the President’s lawyer are quite significant. Its almost a certainty. You want to wish otherwise, have at it.

    noel (b4d580)

  260. http://www.nydailynews.com/news/politics/fbi-raided-michael-cohen-place-docs-trump-affairs-article-1.3925927

    FBI investigators who raided properties tied to Michael Cohen wanted documents tied to allegations about President Trump’s affairs and his [Cohen’s] taxi medallions, according to reports…. [They are worth a lot less money than they used to be thanks to Uber and Lyft et al and some taxi medallion owners are committing suicide for their life insurance. Did he borrow money on them at some point from some bank, based on their old evaluations? And if he did, is that a crime? If people are comitting suicide that would seem to be an indication that a lot of their value is considered to be gone for good. But is maybe the bank supposed to know what they’re worth since none of this is a secret?]

    ….Their target was records on former Playmate Karen McDougal and adult film star Stormy Daniels, the New York Times reported.

    McDougal sued the National Enquirer earlier this year over a $150,000 payment for her story about Trump, only to never run it and cornering her into silence.

    McDougal’s lawyer has accused Michael Cohen of having been secretly involved in the negotiations for that exclusive contract with the National Enquirer. With Karen McDougal it was a real affair. The first time, which happened at the same Lake Tahoe golf tournnament where he had intercourse with Stormy Daniels, Donald Trump thought he was supposed to give her money, but she knew nothing about that and refused to take it. Sounds like maybe somebody set them up. Somebody in Nevada who just might not want all their business and other activities to get too much attention, as it might when it was close to the end of a Presidential election in which Trump was a major candidate.]

    Sammy Finkelman (02a146)

  261. @ Cassandra (#248), who asked:

    What are the scope and limits of Mueller’s investigation? How about some sort acknowledgement that, with the Steele dossier, they have lost a certain element of trust and benefit of the doubt? I want to know straight up what what crimes they are alleging to justify this raid. Just a list. That would help a lot. Cohen knows. the prosecutors know. the judge knows. Why not us?

    When the Carter Page FISA warrant was obtained, Robert Mueller was still a partner at Wilmer Hale; he had nothing to do with it.

    The current warrant under discussion also wasn’t issued by Mueller or his team, but instead by the office of the U.S. Attorney for the Southern District of New York. His (or his acting subordinate, if he’s recused) authority is to prosecute all federal crimes that occur in his district; he doesn’t need and doesn’t have an appointment like Mueller’s to do that, it’s built into the definition of his job.

    So what on earth are you actually trying to say here? You have lost trust in the FBI and the DoJ? Okay, fine, so have many others; it’s an opinion you’re entitled to, however jumbled or confused your arguments to support that position may be.

    Since they’re part of the Executive Branch of government, I suggest that you fix your blame on the head of the Executive Branch of government.

    Beldar (fa637a)

  262. This mess boils down to the trouble with lawyers and the legal system that they have created, effectively legislating us into a state of anarchy.
    Skorcher (5b282a) — 4/10/2018 @ 11:31 am

    Supposedly anarchists don’t believe in no rules but in no rulers.

    Pinandpuller (16b0b5)

  263. It was 784 days from the night of the Watergate break-in [June 17, 1972] ’til the day The Big Dick resigned and flew into history [August 9, 1974.]

    DCSCA (797bc0) — 4/10/2018 @ 11:41 am

    When does Mueller send the raven out to look for dry land?

    Pinandpuller (16b0b5)

  264. Trump is an evil man who did evil things we just need to discover them

    Clinton did nothing wrong when she bashed cell phones with hammers and bleach bitted her email servers give her the benefit of the doubt. The DOJ followed all procedures when it trash canned Huma’s embezzlement charged and allowed Clinton’s entire staff to be granted immunity in exchange for yummy ice cream. They followed protocol as well when they gave her lawyers back devices with classified freaking information on them instead of pre dawn raiding their houses like they do whenever an “offender” is a republican. Also why bother following up school shooter threats? We got important stuff to do like investigate porn stars if they involve the president

    Hi (ffbb3b)

  265. 253. Dave (839341) — 4/10/2018 @ 1:56 pm

    Clinton was impeached for lying about an extramarital affair under oath, in testimony for a civil case that involved either sexual harassment, an unsuccessful pick-up attempt or another consensual extramarital affair, depending on what you believe.

    The lie was about Monica Lewinsky, which ajudge had rruled to be relevantm, based on a law that Bill Clinton himself signed!

    After this was all over, she (the judge) later actually ruled it irrelevant after all, and the suit was faulty on technical grounds – wrong tort – anyway (and had probably been ginned up by Bill Clinton as an public excuse foir having a legal defense fund) but Bill Clinton settled with Pauala Jones to reduuce the chances of him being indicted.

    Sammy Finkelman (02a146)

  266. Further to #261, still @ Cassandra (#248), specifically re this:

    I want to know straight up what what crimes they are alleging to justify this raid. Just a list. That would help a lot. Cohen knows. the prosecutors know. the judge knows. Why not us?

    The reason we know anything at all about the execution of this search warrant is because Cohen’s own lawyer and Trump have gone public with that news.

    Otherwise, like everything else a prosecutor does in obtaining and executing upon a search warrant, it would only be known by, as you say, the prosecutor, the magistrate, and the target of the warrant.

    If you want the list, ask Cohen and his lawyer and the POTUS.

    Do you understand why this is all so? It’s to protect the rights of those who are being investigated, but who have not yet been publicly indicted and may never be publicly indicted. These things are secret in order to protect, in this specific instance, Michael Cohen and his client Donald J. Trump. Neither you, nor I, nor other members of the general public have any right to penetrate the secrecy of this process and demand the list you are demanding.

    Beldar (fa637a)

  267. Your analysis somehow overlooks all of the hurdles that must be overcome before a raid like that can occur.
    noel (b4d580) — 4/10/2018 @ 12:00 pm

    More like The Robert Mueller Broken Skull Challenge.

    Pinandpuller (16b0b5)

  268. I said (in #266) “the list,” but ought have said, “A copy of the search warrant.”

    Beldar (fa637a)

  269. @263. When does Mueller send the raven out to look for dry land?

    As the ‘Nazi Card’ has been played, a prediction would be on Friday, April 20; the perfect day for Herr Trump to fire Mr. Rosenstein.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  270. Taxi medallions?!

    Curiouser and curiouser…

    Money-laundering tools? (Since there is no independent record of the transactions, could you claim that money acquired through other, illegal means was taxi revenue?)

    Dave (839341)

  271. Neither you, nor I, nor other members of the general public have any right to penetrate the secrecy of this process and demand the list you are demanding.

    Beldar (fa637a) — 4/10/2018 @ 2:16 pm

    Unless that list hurts trump then it leaks like a brown paper bag as Comey, Mueller and Rosenstein have pretty much all admitted to selectively leaking whatever they want. How dare he try to penetrate the secrecy of those careful stewards of gov trust! We should only read about what they want us to know in the approved papers and news stations.

    Hi (ffbb3b)

  272. I love the catch-22 presented as a logical argument. If the FBI and DOJ, blame the chief executive. If the chief executive tries to do something about it (not only now, but even a full year ago) it’s obstruction of justice.

    The bit never gets old.

    random viking (6a54c2)

  273. *if the FBI and DOJ are corrupt

    random viking (6a54c2)

  274. Oh. It just occured to me. Trump should be releasing his taxes any day now. He repeatedly promised to do that when the audit was over. Since Cohen likely had them on his computer, perhaps no further action will be necessary.

    Promises made. Promises kept.

    noel (b4d580)

  275. Did patterico just use the word “trumpkin”?

    Dude you’ve gone full Charles Johnson

    Hi (ffbb3b) — 4/10/2018 @ 1:26 pm

    I think this is the point on To Tell the Truth where I say “Disagree”.

    Pinandpuller (16b0b5)

  276. Good morning… I think it stinks because all of this was put into play by the phony Russia Collusion Kabuki and since that hasn’t panned out, they are casting about hoping to find a crime. It is ridiculous in my estimation.

    “Put into play” is pretty vague. If Mueller stumbles across something and it doesn’t justify a warrant, the people he passed it along to don’t have to act on it. But they did. We are now to assume all federal law enforcement is corrupt on account of they hate Trump enough to violate their oaths? No sale.

    Patterico (996bc5)

  277. Did patterico just use the word “trumpkin”?

    Dude you’ve gone full Charles Johnson

    I guess it’s random viking that went full Charles Johnson because that’s who I was quoting. Control F is your friend.

    It’s not my preferred term. Trumpalo is good.

    Patterico (996bc5)

  278. in a police state there are always winners and losers and they seem to self-sort rather nicely

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  279. @ Hi, who wrote (#271):

    Comey, Mueller and Rosenstein have pretty much all admitted to selectively leaking whatever they want.

    I call bullsh!t. Comey has indeed so admitted in Congressional testimony. I defy you to produce to me any example of either Mueller or Rosenstein having “pretty much” admitting to leaking, selectively or otherwise.

    Again, for the dim-witted: We know about this search warrant because Cohen’s lawyer and Trump went public about it, not because Rosenstein or Mueller or anyone else at the DoJ or FBI leaked about it.

    Beldar (fa637a)

  280. I prefer “Trumpkin” to describe those who’ve supported Trump since the GOP primaries or support him now on a no-matter-what basis. “Trumpalo” is disrespectful to a noble and symbolically American beast, a species that deserves better and, frankly, has more sense (despite its herd instincts, which I take to be the point of the comparison to fervent Trump supporters).

    Beldar (fa637a)

  281. Cohen failed to pay more than $40K in taxes on his taxi medallions last year, blaming the arrest of the Russian-born (naturally) taxi king-pin (and close friend) who manages them for tax fraud and grand larceny.

    Michael Cohen Owes NY More Than $40K In Unpaid Taxes From His Taxi Biz

    Dave (839341)

  282. We are now to assume all federal law enforcement is corrupt on account of they hate Trump enough to violate their oaths? No sale.

    This is getting to be quite feverish, isn’t it, P. Accelerated by the pace of the media cycles of our times. If you can recall the Watergate climate in the summer of ’74 amidst the battle over the tapes, the sickness was similar.

    Then came Jerry Ford and swine flu shots for the masses!

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  283. @281. Any parking tickets?

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  284. “If you can recall the Watergate climate in the summer of ’74 amidst the battle over the tapes, the sickness was similar.”

    L.O.L.

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  285. We are now to assume all federal law enforcement is corrupt on account of they hate Trump enough to violate their oaths? No sale.

    Straw man. Not all. Some — and that’s more than enough. Ask Ted Stevens.

    random viking (6a54c2)

  286. “We are now to assume all federal law enforcement is corrupt on account of they hate Trump enough to violate their oaths? No sale.“

    Let your conscience and your sense of ethics be your guide.

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  287. I went full Megatron Charles Johnson.

    random viking (6a54c2)

  288. So beldar they can all leak whenever and that’s ok but yeah sure these new guys don’t and we should super trust them. Got it

    Hi (ffbb3b)

  289. @284. =Haiku!= Gesundheit!

    L.O.L. indeed; resigned to a comedy of errors.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  290. This is not Watergate. In Watergate, Americans were breaking into the Democrat’s headquarters. Here, it was Russians first, then the goods were spread by Americans. Its the Americans Second policy.

    noel (b4d580)

  291. 271… the Truth has been penetrated – properly rogered, actually – repeatedly for well over a year now.

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  292. I thought it was an insult to Insane Clown Posse Mr Beldar.

    Pinandpuller (ab37f4)

  293. @290. =yawn= History rhymes.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  294. How can one hold the opinion that every leak, (which all by the way try to reflect negatively on trump super coincidence) is AOK gloss over that don’t look, while also holding the opinion that these DOJ guys are super non partisan and we should slobber on them trust after we freaking see text messages of them laughing being partisan as hell and openly discussing how the AG knew months beforehand they wouldn’t charge Hillary before they even interviewed her and how trump was a monster we needed an insurance policy against?

    Hi (ffbb3b)

  295. If only FISA warrants had been in Nixon’s arsenal….

    random viking (6a54c2)

  296. @282

    You recall enough for all of us grandpa.

    Pinandpuller (ab37f4)

  297. I thought it was an insult to Insane Clown Posse Mr Beldar.

    That’s how I understood it, which makes it OK in my book, since I don’t totally understand what that is (but have heard of Juggalos nonetheless).

    Patterico (996bc5)

  298. I’d love .to hear about the Facebook/Google Collusion with the Obama administration in 2012. Right after they bring Hillary Clinton, Loretta Lynch, Eric Holder, Lois Lerner and several others to justice.

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  299. @ Hi (#288): I just challenged you to produce any evidence of any occasion on which two of the very specific individuals you just named, and accused of that specific misconduct, had “pretty much” or otherwise admitted to leaking.

    I take it from your silence on that topic that you can produce no such evidence.

    Your recasting of my question into an assertion that “they can all leak whenever and that’s okay” is dishonest. I believe leaking is a serious problem and serious offense, and that one therefore ought to have at least some particle of supporting evidence before accusing a public official of it — and that’s precisely what you, sir or ma’am, lack.

    Beldar (fa637a)

  300. 296… he’s somethin’, ain’t he.

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  301. Trumpalo is good.

    I prefer “Trumpkin”

    I think “cultist” is best – it’s a more accurate description of the phenomenon, and only pejorative if you think independent, rational thought is a good thing (which cultists obviously do not).

    “Trumpalo” is disrespectful to a noble and symbolically American beast

    I’ve frankly never understood the etymology of “Trumpalo”. The Urban Dictionary says it originates from “Trump” + “juggalo”, where “juggalo” is another word whose meaning I had to Google…

    Dave (839341)

  302. @290. In Watergate, Americans were breaking into the Democrat’s headquarters.

    =yawn= Three of the Watergate burglars were Cuban exiles, one was a Cuban American, and the fifth was James W. McCord, Jr., a former CIA agent.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  303. I’m reassured on behalf of the buffalo.

    Beldar (fa637a)

  304. 295.If only FISA warrants had been in Nixon’s arsenal….

    Plumbers can be costly.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  305. I will repeat what I said last night
    The FBI and DOJ may be corrupt. That in no way means Trump is not corrupt.

    We know Cohen was involved with Trump’s real estate deals. We know that Trump’s deals involved some rather shady Slavs, and that financial shenanigans were likely involved. The only questions are whether those shenanigans were actually criminal, how much did Cohen know, and to what degree Trump was involved.

    And I am sure all those people who pointed out the apparent corruption of Bill Clinton getting an outsize fee for a lecture in Moscow will apply similar standards to this

    https://www.nytimes.com/2018/04/09/us/politics/trump-mueller-ukraine-victor-pinchuk.html

    Kishnevi (c91988)

  306. re LGF

    If you can’t tell the difference between frosting and diabetic p*ss then by all means let a guy with missing extremities decorate your cake.

    Pinandpuller (16b0b5)

  307. Dave, the need to caricature people is a definite sign of “independent, rational thought.” Mocking such a need might just step it up a notch.

    random viking (6a54c2)

  308. That’s how I understood it, which makes it OK in my book, since I don’t totally understand what that is (but have heard of Juggalos nonetheless).

    Patterico (996bc5) — 4/10/2018 @ 2:49 pm

    The ones you’ve seen were probably in suits and restraints.

    Pinandpuller (16b0b5)

  309. I prefer trumpnik. Trumpniki in the plural.

    Kishnevi (c91988)

  310. The FBI and DOJ may be corrupt. That in no way means Trump is not corrupt.

    Note that the sleazy cowardly and criminal FBI is dirty to the core and that this has been obvious for some time now.

    Now look at President Trump, who has served his country nobly and well.

    Advantage: President Donald Trump

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  311. “No Puppet. You’re the Puppet”. Oh how things have changed.

    noel (b4d580)

  312. “Dec 21, 1987 – Dear Donald, I did not see the program but Mrs. Nixon told me that you were great on ‘The Donahue Show.’ As you can imagine, she is an expert on politics and she predicts that whenever you decide to run for office you will be a winner! Sincerely, RMN” – text of personal correspondence to now President Trump from former President Nixon currently on display in the Oval Office.

    ‘Me And My Five O’Clock Shadow,’ eh, Captain, sir!

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  313. She sure knows how to pick em.

    noel (b4d580)

  314. What are the odds of that?

    noel (b4d580)

  315. CNN reporting Berman recused from Cohen investigation before search warrants issued.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  316. you people and your sneeringly disrespectful names like trumpapoo or whatever

    very mature

    I would offer “Trump stalwart” as a good descriptor of people who stand with out president, President Donald Trump, and against the burgeoning fascist police state that’s attempting to orchestrate a coup.

    This is a good descriptor because it is resepectful and very accurate thank you.

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  317. oops with *our* president i mean

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  318. @296. Not as much as Facebook, PP.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  319. Dave @281. I think that’s the wrong link.

    Sammy Finkelman (02a146)

  320. Was Victor Pinchuk pro-Putin or anti-Putin?

    Sammy Finkelman (02a146)

  321. The symbol of ICP is a Hatchet Man btw…

    Pinandpuller (16b0b5)

  322. In the meantime I wrote nothing here about North Korea or Syria and the legality of using military force.

    Sammy Finkelman (02a146)

  323. @316. the burgeoning fascist police state that’s attempting to orchestrate a coup.

    The Marine band marches to a different drummer, Mr. Feet.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  324. @296. Not as much as Facebook, PP.

    DCSCA (797bc0) — 4/10/2018 @ 3:34 pm

    You have some strawberries in Farmville getting ripe.

    Pinandpuller (16b0b5)

  325. 305 The FBI and DOJ may be corrupt. That in no way means Trump is not corrupt. Very true, but this is obvious.

    Sammy Finkelman (02a146)

  326. https://www.cbsnews.com/news/live-white-house-press-briefing-today-tuesday-2018-04-10-live-updates/

    Sarah Sanders says she doesn’t know whether Michael Cohen still represents Trump

    Sammy Finkelman (02a146)

  327. @324. And fresh for our Captain’s Table tonight, too!

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  328. @323 Mr DCSCA

    After Queen Marie-Thérèse’s death in 1683 and the king’s secret marriage to Mme de Maintenon, devotion came to the fore at court. The king’s enthusiasm for opera dissipated; he was revolted by Lully’s dissolute life and homosexual encounters. In 1686, to show his displeasure, Louis XIV made a point of not inviting Lully to perform Armide at Versailles. Lully died from gangrene, having struck his foot with his long conducting staff during a performance of his Te Deum to celebrate Louis XIV’s recovery from surgery. He refused to have his leg amputated so he could still dance. This resulted in gangrene propagating through his body and ultimately infecting the greater part of his brain, causing his death.He died in Paris and was buried in the church of Notre-Dame-des-Victoires, where his tomb with its marble bust can still be seen. All three of his sons (Louis Lully, Jean-Baptiste Lully fils, and Jean-Louis Lully) had musical careers as successive surintendants of the King’s Music.

    Jean Baptiste Lully

    Pinandpuller (16b0b5)

  329. If only lawyers could run this country without elections getting in the way.

    random viking (6a54c2)

  330. This is the correct TPM link on the taxi medallions:

    https://talkingpointsmemo.com/muckraker/michael-cohen-unpaid-taxes-taxi-business

    Sammy Finkelman (02a146)

  331. Cohen has talked to CNN anchor; Lemons out of lemonade.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  332. Cohen told TPM in an email that the taxes are collected from drivers by the management company that handles the medallions. Cohen said his medallions are managed by Gene “The Taxi King” Freidman, a New York City taxi kingpin who was recently hit with a slew of lawsuits alleging professional misconduct.

    Freidman pleaded not guilty in June to tax fraud and first-degree grand larceny charges for allegedly cheating the Empire State out of $5 million in unpaid taxes. Taxi passengers pay an extra 50 cents on each ride that managers are then supposed to pay toward funding the city’s overstretched transit system; Freidman is accused of collecting that tax but failing to fork it over to the state. Shortly before Friedman’s arrest on those charges, the Taxi & Limousine Commission confiscated 800 of the highly valuable medallions he manages.

    This is astory from last August. This probably can’t be about the $40,000.

    Sammy Finkelman (02a146)

  333. Did Cohen attempt to use medallions he either no longer owned, or that weren’t worth as much as they used to be in 2013, as collateral? Or what?

    Sammy Finkelman (02a146)

  334. “I will repeat what I said last night – The FBI and DOJ may be corrupt. That in no way means Trump is not corrupt.” Kishnevi (c91988) — 4/10/2018 @ 3:06 pm

    Agreed. Then what? Is this then all just a battle royal between sleazebags? A mob war in which I want no part? If Trump is destroyed, who will then hold the FBI and DOJ accountable?

    Are you okay with a progressive, weaponized DOJ? I don’t feel all that comfortable with that idea.

    Can we think that Trump might be the lessor of the two evils, given he is likely gone in 3 years? In which case the ideal situation would be for him to clean up the DOJ before he goes. Not likely, but the best possible outcome for the U.S. if both are corrupt.

    Cassandra (a815b9)

  335. @330. The Navy band can carry a tune, too.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  336. @334. Any pushcart faux pas history, Sammy? Now there’s a racket he’d cash in on.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  337. you people and your sneeringly disrespectful names like trumpapoo or whatever

    very mature

    This from someone who frequently calls Mitt Romney a pervert and a pedophile. To say nothing of all the other names he calls politicians.

    Forgive me if I take your criticism with all the respect it deserves.

    Chuck Bartowski (211c17)

  338. Of course i will forgive you these are fractious and difficult times but together we can walk through the dark valley of fbi fascism and emerge into a bright meadow of freedom

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  339. @ kish: Does that mean that all this time, beatniks have really been beatniki?

    Beldar (fa637a)

  340. Michael Cohen, President Trump’s personal attorney, said Tuesday that the FBI agents who raided his house, office and hotel room a day earlier acted professionally and courteously.

    “I am unhappy to have my personal residence and office raided,” Cohen told CNN in an interview. “But I will tell you that members of the FBI that conducted the search and seizure were all extremely professional, courteous and respectful. And I thanked them at the conclusion.”

    our fbi nazis are very well-mannered apparently

    this makes living in a police state more tolerable because when someone’s courteous to someone it’s just human nature for that person to be courteous to the next person they meet

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  341. Neither you, nor I, nor other members of the general public have any right to penetrate the secrecy of this process and demand the list you are demanding. Beldar (fa637a) — 4/10/2018 @ 2:16 pm

    Okay, that is funny. What is the over/under that everything acquired during the raid is leaked to the press? Especially if it is remotely damaging to Trump? I give it 30 days before the investigation starts hemorrhaging leaks. And I’m going to go out on a limb and guess that was the point of it all. You are still living in a world where rules apply. I’m not convinced that the normal rules of conduct are operational at this point. I certainly have been unpleasantly surprised by things in the very recent past.

    Cassandra (a815b9)

  342. You think taxi medallions are bad I heard LA is going to paint their streets white to reflect heat into space.

    Pinandpuller (16b0b5)

  343. “When the Carter Page FISA warrant was obtained, Robert Mueller was still a partner at Wilmer Hale; he had nothing to do with it.” beldar.

    Well you certainly win that point I never made.

    “The current warrant under discussion also wasn’t issued by Mueller or his team, but instead by the office of the U.S. Attorney for the Southern District of New York. His (or his acting subordinate, if he’s recused) authority is to prosecute all federal crimes that occur in his district; he doesn’t need and doesn’t have an appointment like Mueller’s to do that, it’s built into the definition of his job.”

    Um, well not to point out the bloody obvious, but Mueller’s Team refereed a possible crime to them which instigated the raid. So, what was refereed to them to investigate? Or are you being intentionally dense?

    “So what on earth are you actually trying to say here? You have lost trust in the FBI and the DoJ? Okay, fine, so have many others; it’s an opinion you’re entitled to, however jumbled or confused your arguments to support that position may be.”

    Seems perfectly clear to me. I want to know what is happening to who and why. I want to know the scope of Mueller’s investigation. I want some additional assurances this is all on the up and up. Given recent history, I don’t think this is an unreasonable request.

    I mean, what is the point of a special prosecutor anyway? Why couldn’t the DOJ just handle this internally? The sole purpose of the special prosecutor is to reassure the public that everything is being done by the book, and properly. That the president is not interfering with the investigation. If the purpose of the special prosecutor is solely to install confidence in the public that the investigation is being properly performed, why not take it a step further and really inform the public what the hell is happening?

    Right now, the special prosecutor is NOT fulfilling it’s sole function, which is reassure the public that no one is above the law. I’m not saying that is wholly or even partially Mueller’s fault, it is just a fact of the recent DOJ corruption that seem pretty self-evident. So change the playbook for Mueller so he reports, frequently and often, on what he is doing and why. Again, if his purpose is restore and support public confidence in the process, then I think that would be a critical step.

    “Since they’re part of the Executive Branch of government, I suggest that you fix your blame on the head of the Executive Branch of government.” You mean Trump? Well, he is facing the obstruction trap, now isn’t he? He literally can’t interfere, or he may face impeachment. Convenient, no?

    Cassandra (a815b9)

  344. Okay, I gave up at “refereed” (the second time).

    Let’s just leave it at this: You have your expectations. I think they don’t correspond with the real world. Cheers.

    Beldar (fa637a)

  345. I will, however, treasure this forever in my memory:

    So, what was refereed to them to investigate? Or are you being intentionally dense?

    Beldar (fa637a)

  346. Excellent job, Cassandra.

    BuDuh (fc15db)

  347. Beldar’s got the intellectual dishonesty bit down pat.

    random viking (6a54c2)

  348. “Do you understand why this is all so? It’s to protect the rights of those who are being investigated, but who have not yet been publicly indicted and may never be publicly indicted. These things are secret in order to protect, in this specific instance, Michael Cohen and his client Donald J. Trump. Neither you, nor I, nor other members of the general public have any right to penetrate the secrecy of this process and demand the list you are demanding.”

    Not demanding, requesting. Pointing out a path toward a better DOJ and special prosecutor.
    And frankly, this is a bit rich. Cohen was raided by the FBI on referral from Mueller. That seemed to hit the press awfully fast. I mean, there are certainly less flashy ways of doing this, no? Or is someone making a statement?

    “Michael Cohen, the longtime attorney of President Trump, is under federal investigation for possible bank fraud, wire fraud and campaign finance violations, according to three people with knowledge of the case.” Washington Post, today. So the information I am “demanding” was leaked within 24 hours. Mueller could have easily made a statement to the same effect yesterday.

    So this special super secret information was leaked by 3 people within hours of the raid. Literally hours. So tell me again, why is my request so unreasonable? Oh and this being such a super secret thing and all, I assume the DOJ will bend every resource to find those three leakers, right?

    Or, not so much? Public right to know and all that.

    This is a game. A leftist game. We have rules, and the rules apply, unless they decide to change the rules because you are a garbage subhuman. Because Trump is such a person, they get to break those rules, constantly. We protect privacy, unless, Trump is involved, and then, not so much.

    Next, expect his tax returns to be published. That is breaking the law of course, but no one will ever be prosecuted because, Trump.

    Cassandra (a815b9)

  349. @330. The Navy band can carry a tune, too.

    DCSCA (797bc0) — 4/10/2018 @ 3:48 pm

    If it absolutely positively doesn’t have to get there over hill over dale…

    Pinandpuller (16b0b5)

  350. I have to admire Beldar for diving into Cassandra’s fishwife tirade. I shudder to think what she sounds like when she doesn’t have the typing to slow her down. “I want, I want, I want! Why can’t we have, have, have? Why, why, why? You’re not listening to me!” I couldn’t even begin to do it.

    nk (dbc370)

  351. tirade*s*

    nk (dbc370)

  352. Of course i will forgive you these are fractious and difficult times but together we can walk through the dark valley of fbi fascism and emerge into a bright meadow of freedom

    happyfeet (28a91b) — 4/10/2018 @ 4:04 pm

    Don’t let herr mueller make you his forest wife-you’d sooner marry an ewok.

    Pinandpuller (16b0b5)

  353. i don’t know what that means but i hate his stupid nazi guts

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  354. I have to admire Beldar for diving into Cassandra’s fishwife tirade. I shudder to think what she sounds like when she doesn’t have the typing to slow her down. “I want, I want, I want! Why can’t we have, have, have? Why, why, why? You’re not listening to me!” I couldn’t even begin to do it.

    nk (dbc370) — 4/10/2018 @ 4:56 pm

    Pardon my ignorance, but don’t you have a whole ‘nother binder full of Saints you can beg patience from?

    Pinandpuller (16b0b5)

  355. I do love how Patterico and Beldar immediately focus on spelling errors when they have lost an argument. You are right Beldar, you win, I misspelled “referred”. Golly, I just don’t know the meaning on them thar’ word thingies. It wasn’t that I have other things to do, and type fast, and spell check selected the wrong word. I’m just another garbage subhuman person who’s argument can be safely ignored.

    Perfect. Really, just the ideal response. I mean, not elitist in the slightest.

    Cassandra (a815b9)

  356. i don’t know what that means but i hate his stupid nazi guts

    happyfeet (28a91b) — 4/10/2018 @ 4:58 pm

    Just as the intellectuals are on hand to argue and fret, so are the women called upon to gaze at the Bielskis with wide, melting eyes. Three of them (Alexa Davalos, Iben Hjejle and Mia Wasikowska) will be chosen as “forest wives” by Tuvia, Zus and Asael. “You saved my life,” says Lilka (Ms. Davalos) to Tuvia as they lie together, wrapped in furs and illuminated by golden sunlight. “No. You saved mine,” he says.

    Defiance

    Pinandpuller (16b0b5)

  357. “I have to admire Beldar for diving into Cassandra’s fishwife tirade. I shudder to think what she sounds like when she doesn’t have the typing to slow her down. “I want, I want, I want! Why can’t we have, have, have? Why, why, why? You’re not listening to me!” I couldn’t even begin to do it.” nk

    And I certainly appreciate your casual misogyny. High minded bunch here, eh?

    Please continue will your well-reasoned conservative arguments.

    Cassandra (a815b9)

  358. Or discussing whether Trumpkin or Trumpalo is the better term. These are the points debated by “independent, rational” minds.

    random viking (6a54c2)

  359. Okay, Cassandra. How about you finish rewriting the Constitution and all of due process law, plus the U.S. Attorneys’ Handbook and related regulations, the way you expect them to read, and email it all to Jeff Sessions? Mm-kay?

    Let’s just trash the presumption of innocence. Cassandra expects to be kept informed!

    Beldar (fa637a)

  360. ok i think i saw where that’s on one of my services but it didn’t look like it had vampires or anything intersting

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  361. *interesting* i mean

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  362. Nazis killed millions of Jews. These people were executing a search warrant. Calm the [expletive deleted] down, people!

    This is simply wrong on so many levels. Certainly, the Nazis conducted genocide. But they first took control of the powers of the state and used those powers to destroy a democratic society.

    Certainly Patterico is smart enough to know this.

    Furthermore, as I and others pointed out earlier, this entire fiasco started with the government abusing the power of their offices to obtain warrants illegally to undermine a duly elected President.

    The fact that these treasonous officials haven’t yet gone as far as the Nazis is irrelevant and not really comforting.

    And this is possibly the stupidest thing I have ever seen Patterico post on this blog.

    I get you hate Trump. I have no love for the man and I voted for him because the prospect of a Hillary presidency was an abomination.

    But it is clear that Mueller, the DOJ and the FBI is completely out of control and engaged in an coup against the duly elected President of the United States. The fact that they are “lawyers” doesn’t make these actions acceptable.

    I cannot believe he said something so ludicrous. Truly this is troubling.

    WarEagle82 (2b3d34)

  363. this makes living in a police state more tolerable because when someone’s courteous to someone it’s just human nature for that person to be courteous to the next person they meet

    happyfeet (28a91b) — 4/10/2018 @ 4:12 pm

    The FBI hiring procedure is called a “Cattle Car Audition.”

    Pinandpuller (16b0b5)

  364. And I certainly appreciate your casual misogyny. High minded bunch here, eh?

    this is a battle we have to wake up and fight anew every day

    glad to have you on board

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  365. The word “misogyny” means “dislike of, contempt for, or ingrained prejudice against women.”

    Cassandra, quote, please, anything I’ve written which you believe to be evidence that I dislike, have contempt for, or have ingrained prejudice against women.

    You sound like Hillary Clinton — but with even less justification!

    Beldar (fa637a)

  366. She meant me, Beldar. I have some vestiges of “gentleman” lefty somewhere, so I’ll refer the denial of a certain pass to Pinandpuller since it was his phrase to begin with.

    nk (dbc370)

  367. lefty

    Heh! narciso lives!

    nk (dbc370)

  368. “Since they’re part of the Executive Branch of government, I suggest that you fix your blame on the head of the Executive Branch of government.” You mean Trump? Well, he is facing the obstruction trap, now isn’t he? He literally can’t interfere, or he may face impeachment. Convenient, no?

    Cassandra (a815b9) — 4/10/2018 @ 4:29 pm

    Trump is the only person stopping investigations into Hillary/Benghazi and Hillary/emails, and the Bill/Lynch tarmac meeting. Why would he have done that before he was even inaugurated?

    DRJ (15874d)

  369. you link it is no good

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  370. Trump supporters is my preferred term.

    DRJ (15874d)

  371. Thank you, happyfeet. I’m not sure what happened but here it is.

    DRJ (15874d)

  372. Still sounded like Hillary, nk.

    Beldar (fa637a)

  373. @351. If it absolutely positively doesn’t have to get there over hill over dale…

    That’s a caisson file.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  374. “I Stand with Rand”

    http://dailycaller.com/2018/04/10/rand-paul-bob-mueller-cohen-raid/

    “You remember what Chuck Schumer said a couple months ago? He said if you cross the intelligence agencies, they can screw you six ways to Sunday,” Paul concluded. “This is about enormous power, prosecutorial power but also power in the intelligence communities. We have to rein this in or every American citizen is exposed to this kind of abuse of power.”

    random viking (6a54c2)

  375. Trumpniki vs. teh Gimpinistas!

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  376. Why would he have done that before he was even inaugurated?

    effing ivanka

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  377. War Eagle 82, I honestly don’t recall any Holocaust victims complimenting the manners of the SS troops who seized them and shipped them off to the death camps. Do you think you might actually be proving Patterico’s point instead of refuting it?

    Beldar (fa637a)

  378. 352… I nominate nk for teh presidency of teh He-Man Woman Haters Club… https://i.imgflip.com/125cmr.jpg

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  379. I second the nomination!

    felipe (023cc9)

  380. You guys need to approach lawyers cautiously and not from the back or they stampede. Maybe just let them get used to you. Or cover yourself with lawyer pheromones which you can find in fine sporting good stores. They smell like Scotch with a hint of leather.

    Pinandpuller (16b0b5)

  381. Cassandra, you do realize, don’t you, that “people with knowledge of the case” could be either prosecutors or people associated with Trump & Cohen?

    You do realize that it was Trump & Cohen’s lawyers who went public, yesterday, with news of the search warrant to begin with?

    The reason you presume that today’s news — about what the search warrant covered — was leaked by Mueller or his team, instead of by Trump & Cohen’s lawyers, is what exactly?

    Beldar (fa637a)

  382. Trump supporters is my preferred term.

    DRJ (15874d) — 4/10/2018 @ 5:24 pm

    What do you call someone like Mark Levin who just called Robert Mueller a vicious bastard? Hardly a Trump Soul Kisser.

    Pinandpuller (16b0b5)

  383. @ Cassandra, re this in particular (from #367):

    It wasn’t that I have other things to do, and type fast, and spell check selected the wrong word. I’m just another garbage subhuman person who’s argument can be safely ignored.

    Two points: (1) I didn’t ever call you that. You’re engaging in a fantasy, making up words and attributing them to me. (2) “[W]hose argument,” I would have written, probably, if I had said any of that, but I might have erred or made a typo, I often do. When I do it within a sentence of accusing someone else of being intentionally dense, I have the good grace to admit that it’s particularly funny.

    Beldar (fa637a)

  384. CNN reporting Berman recused from Cohen investigation before search warrants issued.

    Berman who? https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2018/04/10/top-ny-prosecutor-geoffrey-berman-trump-appointee-recused-michael-cohen-inquiry/502367002/

    Berman, named in January as an interim replacement to fill the post formerly held by Preet Bharara, whom Trump dismissed last year, was recused by Justice Department officials under Deputy Attorney General Rod Rosenstein, said the source, who was not authorized to comment publicly.

    These warrants weren’t executed under the direction of Robert Mueller. They were executed under the direction of the U.S. Attorney for the Southern District of New York, a Trump appointee.

    The raid was authorized by Rod Rosenstein according to anonymous.

    If only there were a news sources one could believe in.

    I want some definitive answers because I have this whole stream of cuss on standby waiting for a target.

    papertiger (c8116c)

  385. Say what you will, a certain group of Constitutional Lawyers is being forced into a Trump ADL by Mueller. It’s quite a sight.

    Pinandpuller (16b0b5)

  386. rosytwat needs to spend some time updating the old resume

    (if he wants to put his best foot forward)

    he’s too nazi to do justice department

    sick little nazi rosytwat :(

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  387. War Eagle 82, I honestly don’t recall any Holocaust victims complimenting the manners of the SS troops who seized them and shipped them off to the death camps. Do you think you might actually be proving Patterico’s point instead of refuting it?

    No, Beldar, you sanctimonious putz, I think you are sticking your ass in the air and waving it around like a baboon to get attention.

    And your moronic post now ranks just below Patterico’s moronic point in his OP. It didn’t start with the death camps. It all started with the extra-judicial overthrowing of the constitution. And either you are stupid as mud or are intentionally ignoring the main point. Of course, never overlook the power of AND.

    The DOJ and the FBI and the Special Counsel are running amok to look for crimes where none exist while intentionally overlooking the obvious crimes of the DNC, the Clintons, the Obamas, their cronies, and the DOJ and FBI.

    WarEagle82 (2b3d34)

  388. And when I do err, I don’t call anyone a misandrist for pointing it out.

    Beldar (fa637a)

  389. The DOJ and the FBI and the Special Counsel are running amok to look for crimes where none exist while intentionally overlooking the obvious crimes of the DNC, the Clintons, the Obamas, their cronies, and the DOJ and FBI.

    people know this

    i think they like it

    the germans had a hoot when they went fascist and americans are equally enthusiastic today

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  390. I love it when Beldar digs a hole for himself, then digs deeper.

    random viking (6a54c2)

  391. i think they like it

    I think you’re right. In some cases, it’s no surprise. In others, disappointing.

    Anon Y. Mous (6cc438)

  392. WarEagle82, who do you conceive to be the driving force, the Hitler, behind the extra-judicial overthrowing of the Constitution? I don’t really think you meant “extra-judicial” there, because I think you meant to indict the judges who started what ultimately led to the Nuremberg Laws by which the Nazis did indeed enlist their courts to bless what the storm troopers were doing; but regardless: When you build your time travel machine in 2042 in the smoking rubble of America, and you travel back to 2018 to kill the key person who overthrew American democracy in the fashion you’re claiming, who do you assassinate?

    Mueller?

    Rosenstein?

    Me & Patterico?

    Beldar (fa637a)

  393. “What do you call someone like Mark Levin who just called Robert Mueller a vicious bastard? Hardly a Trump Soul Kisser.”

    I call him an honest man, doing the best he can.

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  394. why did food stamp never move out of dc

    why is food stamp still there

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  395. it’s a nasty town humid and fully of butt-ugly rosytwat nazis

    what kind of sick fascist twist would want to inflict that on his family

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  396. @385. What do you call someone like Mark Levin who just called Robert Mueller a vicious bastard?

    Irrelevant.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  397. Berman, named in January as an interim replacement to fill the post formerly held by Preet Bharara, whom Trump dismissed last year, was recused [The raid was directed] by Justice Department officials [anonymous, perhaps without consultation. Who knows?] under Deputy Attorney General Rod Rosenstein, said the source, who was not authorized to comment publicly.

    papertiger (c8116c)

  398. I have a whole bag of cuss….

    Just waiting here.

    papertiger (c8116c)

  399. @392. the germans had a hoot when they went fascist…

    Actually, they had a Party, Mr. Feet.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  400. Some of you guys here just don’t get it. Trump is not the target. Trump is not even the reason all this leftist crap is going in from attacks on free speech and gun rights to raiding lawyers offices and stealing confidential info on clients to closing down entire web sites and punishing thousands of advertisers in the name of “sex trafficking”. It was never about Trump, he’s the excuse not the reason. We’re the reason! They are after us. They are trying to put us down. Do you guys really believe if Cruz had won the election all this crap would not be going on? Then you’re idiots. This sh!t is because WE WON not because Trump won. They would be calling Cruz names, investigating whether he was an “American” by birth, name calling, digging up old girlfriends, calling him a women hater, a racist and everything they call Trump. They are trying to make sure WE know this is what will happen every time they lose.

    If you side with them you side with fascists. And if you all can’t see the fascistic direction the leftist dems in this country are headed then you are willfully blind and are part of the problem. That’s all I have to say.

    Rev.Hoagie (1b0402)

  401. The first rule of holes is “stop digging.”

    Normally, I find myself agreeing with Patterico quite frequently.

    But it is coming out now that Rosenstein shepherded these warrants rather than a Trump appointee.

    It is long past time for Sessions to take his head out of his ass, stop playing around with weed and other tertiary matters and either take control of the DOJ, resign or be fired. The man has been a disaster. It’s like he decided to scuttle the ship the day after he was appointed.

    Again, I am not a huge Trump fan. I voted for him only because there was no other candidate able to defeat Hillary. But I’ll be damned if I am going to sit on my ass while Comey, McCabe, Brennan, Rosenstein and Wray destroy the constitution and our Republic.

    You are seeing the setup for the 21st Century American equivalent of “Das Ermächtigungsgesetz” that effectively destroyed the Weimar Constitution. Mueller and friends are intent on the destruction of the US Constitution while pretending to defend it.

    WarEagle82 (2b3d34)

  402. it’s not a coincidence that before his old slut-ticker gave out schwarzenegger was sensing this might be his moment

    he dreamed a (nazi) dream of days gone by

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  403. Well said, Rev.

    random viking (6a54c2)

  404. And if you all can’t see the fascistic direction the leftist dems in this country are headed then you are willfully blind and are part of the problem.

    there’s literally NOBODY that doesn’t see it

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  405. And Beldar continues his straw man extravaganza.

    I don’t know him from Adam but his putz-factor seems to be at an all time high now.

    I disagreed with him so now I want to assassinate him.

    What an insufferable twit.

    WarEagle82 (2b3d34)

  406. said the source, who was not authorized to comment publicly.

    papertiger (c8116c) — 4/10/2018 @ 6:06 pm

    You got to have definitive proof that certain individuals leaked tho. Even if every single thing that comes out comes from their office and they do nothing to stop it, it’s not their fault and you can’t blame them for selectively leaking. Ask beldar

    Hi (ffbb3b)

  407. For better or worse I do think I just coined that word and I need to rush over to Urban Dictionary brb

    Pinandpuller (16b0b5)

  408. Here’s what I don’t get about the cultist mindset:

    So far, as far as I recall, everyone Mueller has indicted, except Manafort and the Russian Gang of Thirteen have pleaded guilty, haven’t they? Any objective observer would say, based on what has been reported, that Manafort is likely guilty as sin (no, it hasn’t been proven in court yet, but they have damning bank records up the wazoo and he wasn’t very good at concealing what he was doing). The Gang of Thirteen will never face trial, but there’s a vast amount of electronic evidence against them.

    So everyone Mueller has filed charges against has either pleaded guilty or is guilty as sin regardless.

    So where are all these miscarriages of justice and out-of-control prosecutors I keep hearing about ad nauseum?

    If Trump’s hands are clean, why not just shut up and wait while Mueller continues to indict undeniably guilty people, as he’s done so far? Or at least shut up until he actually brings somebody to trial but fails to win a conviction?

    All the overwrought announcements about the arrival of fascism reek of desperation.

    They remind me of a story Shelby Foote told during the Ken Burns documentary about a trembling Confederate soldier brought before Robert E. Lee for discipline.

    Lee tried to calm him, saying “Don’t worry Private, you’ll get a fair trial here.”

    The soldier replied, “General Lee, that’s what I’m afraid of!”

    Dave (8b82ff)

  409. THe media has lied about Rosenstein actions before. Ascribing quotes out of thin air.

    Claiming Rosenstein was going to resign rather than denounce Comey.

    Can’t bring myself to condemn the man based only on this purposeful fog of media distraction.

    papertiger (c8116c)

  410. If Trump’s hands are clean, why not just shut up and wait while Mueller continues to indict undeniably guilty people, as he’s done so far? Or at least shut up until he actually brings somebody to trial but fails to win a conviction?

    That’s kind of like a rapist standing over you with his Johnson in hand, saying “It’s not a sin if you don’t enjoy it.”

    papertiger (c8116c)

  411. So everyone Mueller has filed charges against has either pleaded guilty or is guilty as sin regardless.

    So, Flynn pleading guilty (for lying about something that wasn’t illegal) because he’s down to his last nickel and can’t handle the stress on his family means what to you? Nothing?

    Plus, Ted Stevens.

    random viking (6a54c2)

  412. @ War Eagle 82: I asked you who you conceive of as the Hitler figure. You still haven’t answered.

    So is it Rosenstein who’s going to take over the government, in the way Hitler too? Because he’s the most senior right now of the names you named in #404 above (“Comey, McCabe, Brennan, Rosenstein and Wray”).

    Support your argument. You’re right, you don’t know me, I don’t know you (other than from past comments here, in which I don’t recall you being so consistently personal and insulting), so just support your argument and be specific.

    Beldar (fa637a)

  413. Please to get your nasty disease ridden [dingo] out of my face before, I rip it off and beat you to death with it, Dave.

    Thank you.

    papertiger (c8116c)

  414. Dave thinks bringing someone to trial is the goal in all this.

    random viking (6a54c2)

  415. @Beldar: You and Patterico have crossed a huge line with this moronic post and your idiotic comments. You posit a fallacy and then complain that I won’t play along with your straw man.

    You’re right that my vitriol is at an all time peak just now. I am insulting you personally because of the utterly moronic nature of your statements.

    I know victims of the holocaust. I have had many friends murdered by terrorists of different stripes on different continents. I have visited the camp sites in Germany and lived in the FSU. I know what evil looks like up close and personal.

    Screw you and your absolute nonsensical crap. You aren’t worth the trouble of playing whatever pointless game you engage in.

    WarEagle82 (2b3d34)

  416. Also, while you’re being specific:

    The fact that these treasonous officials haven’t yet gone as far as the Nazis is irrelevant and not really comforting.

    If you’re comparing what “Comey, McCabe, Brennan, Rosenstein and Wray” are doing now to what the Nazis did in the early 1930s, then yes, based on your very own assertion, how far those Nazis went, and how that compares to how far these officials have gone, is exactly the relevant comparison.

    But you apparently think not. So if we’re to ignore how far those Nazis went in comparing these people to Nazis, what are we supposed to look to? Their fashion sense? Their comic flare?

    Whatever you’re comparing, I, for one, am considerably comforted that no one in America has yet gone as far as the Nazis did in the early 1930s. The people who compare Trump to the Nazis are ridiculous. The people who compare Mueller to the Nazis, even moreso. I’m sufficiently persuaded, WE82, that you understand about the Nazis. It’s your grasp on what’s going on today that I’m doubting.

    Beldar (fa637a)

  417. So I guess that’s a no, you don’t care to specify who is the “Hitler”-figure in today’s putsch?

    Okay, then.

    Beldar (fa637a)

  418. Re Trumpalo/Trumpkin controversy:

    How about “Trumpswabs”?

    gwjd (032bef)

  419. @Beldar: Why don’t you bring your mother and father to church this weekend so the priest can marry them. Insufferable putz doesn’t begin to describe you.

    WarEagle82 (2b3d34)

  420. Beldar, I think you won.

    gwjd (032bef)

  421. I see another entry coming to Beldar’s highly touted blocking script.

    random viking (6a54c2)

  422. They’re dead, WarEagle82. I seem to recall you confirming long ago — maybe I’m hallucinating this, please correct me if I’m wrong — that you said your commenting name here is a reference to your having graduated from Auburn in 1982; if so, that would make us roughly the same age. Please be sure to give my best wishes to your folks, though, if they’re still around.

    Meantime, let us know if you figure out who the “Hitler” is.

    Beldar (fa637a)

  423. But it is coming out now that Rosenstein shepherded these warrants rather than a Trump appointee.

    Rosenstein is a Trump appointee.

    Davethulhu (081885)

  424. I am willing to agree that you are hallucinating so finally we find common ground.

    Your straw man assumes there is a single “Hitler” in this scenario but you are evidently to stupid to realize the fallacy of that point.

    But, I’m done. In fact, I think I’ll take a break from Patterico for a bit. Clearly, the site has veered off into a brand of “Never Trump” lunacy and I’ll find other places to get some balanced views. I obviously can’t find it here.

    WarEagle82 (2b3d34)

  425. The reason I prefer “Trumpkins” is that it’s an allusion to the Munchkins in Baum’s “Wizard of Oz.” It has nothing to do with their size, but rather with their devout and misplaced faith in the Great and Powerful Wizard of Oz, aka Oscar Zoroaster Phadrig Isaac Norman Henkle Emmannuel Ambroise Diggs, who was a con man and a liar, literally a snake-oil salesman and a vaudeville huckster. I suppose in this analogy, Mueller is Toto pulling back the curtain.

    Beldar (fa637a)

  426. But it is coming out now that Rosenstein shepherded these warrants rather than a Trump appointee.

    Not correct. Underlings in DOJ with or without (situation has not been clarified) Rosenstein’s direction sheparded these warrants.

    Got a whole six pack of cuss….

    Waiting for the fog to clear.

    papertiger (c8116c)

  427. Guys guys guys

    It’s like as soon as half the people get settled down the other half go nuts.

    Like the truck driver hauling a trailer load of parakeets who’s overweight but banging on the side to keep some of them flying (I know, it doesn’t work).

    Pinandpuller (16b0b5)

  428. I see another entry coming to Beldar’s highly touted blocking script.

    Too soon. You’ve just rekindled the relationship. Let’s not sully the occasion with premature exchange of saliva.

    papertiger (c8116c)

  429. Rosenstein is a Trump appointee.

    Rosenstein is a Trump appointee who would’ve been fired long ago if Trump had a free hand. See catch-22 noted @272, 273.

    random viking (6a54c2)

  430. It wasn’t supposed like this! It was supposed to be our DOJ, our FBI, our Homeland Security, arresting The Deep State and The Swamp and sending them to Gitmo! What happened? What went wrong? That traitor Sessions! Why did he recuse himself? Why isn’t he doing something?!!!??? Waahhh! Waaahh! Whaah! Fascists!!1!!

    nk (dbc370)

  431. The more the rosytwats and the goose-stepping fbi trash and herr mueller get their nazi on the more I love our president (duly elected), President Donald Trump

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  432. He’ll break your heart, happyfeet.

    nk (dbc370)

  433. J Howard Marshall didn’t get this excited when he met Anna Nicole Smith.

    Pinandpuller (16b0b5)

  434. Rosenstein doesn’t have a pulpit.

    Any report considering his action must be regarded as suspicious, most likely issued from the enemy encampment.

    papertiger (c8116c)

  435. He’ll break your heart, happyfeet.

    nk (dbc370) — 4/10/2018 @ 7:08 pm

    Does hf have front end or back end money?

    Pinandpuller (16b0b5)

  436. “Monday saw two developments in the Trump investigation — one discussed widely in the press, the other not as much — and neither pointed toward collusion.

    Remember collusion? The allegation that Donald Trump and his aides coordinated or conspired with Russia to fix the 2016 presidential election is, and has always been, the heart of the Trump-Russia investigation.

    Yet Monday saw two developments in the Trump investigation — one discussed widely in the press, the other not as much — and neither pointed toward collusion.

    In the development that set off a press firestorm, FBI agents raided the office and hotel room of longtime Trump lawyer/fixer Michael Cohen, apparently looking for evidence concerning Cohen’s role in paying off the porn star Stormy Daniels, who once denied but now says she had a one-night-stand with Trump more than a decade ago.

    Cohen’s lawyer, Stephen Ryan, said he was told the raid was “in part, a referral by the Office of Special Counsel, Robert Mueller.”

    The less-noted development was the release of a heavily-redacted search warrant from the tax evasion, bank fraud, and money laundering case against one-time Trump campaign chairman Paul Manafort. As expected, the warrant dealt overwhelmingly with allegations of financial crimes against Manafort, but one sentence — out of 27 paragraphs and sub-paragraphs — concerned the infamous 2016 Trump Tower meeting between Donald Trump Jr., Jared Kushner, Manafort, and some Russians who said they had dirt on Hillary Clinton.

    The Manafort warrant — executed in a pre-dawn, no-knock, guns-drawn FBI raid on Manafort’s apartment while Manafort and his wife were asleep inside — allowed the FBI to seize “Communications, records, documents, and other files involving any of the attendees of the June 9, 2016 meeting at Trump Tower, as well as Aras and Amin Agalorov.” (The last two are Russians who dealt with Trump in the 2013 Miss Universe pageant held in Moscow.)

    So two big stories, both generated by the Mueller investigation. And about the issue at the heart of the Mueller investigation — not much.

    In the Cohen case, it’s believed that Mueller’s team came across evidence that implicated Cohen in wrongdoing but did not fall under Mueller’s original assignment to probe “any links and/or coordination between the Russian government and individuals associated with the campaign of President Donald Trump” or any other matters that might “arise directly” from that investigation. So Mueller handed off the Cohen information to the U.S. attorney for the Southern District of New York, whose office oversaw the raids on Cohen’s office and hotel room.

    There was much speculation about what the agents wanted — evidence about the Daniels payoff being the leading candidate — but at the same time, the fact that Mueller farmed out the case to federal prosecutors outside his office suggests that the Cohen matter, whatever it is, does not fall under Mueller’s core Trump-Russia assignment.

    As far as the Manafort search warrant is concerned, the document shows clear Mueller interest in what Manafort knew about the Trump Tower meeting. But it appears whatever the FBI might have seized on that topic, if anything, did not lead to any charges against Manafort stemming from the meeting or collusion with Russia in general.

    Manafort faces the most serious charges of any figure in the Trump-Russia affair. But none of those charges alleges collusion. Most have nothing to do with the Trump campaign, or concern alleged criminal activity that began before Manafort’s association with the campaign and continued during his brief time as campaign chief.

    It is always possible that Mueller has more charges in mind for Manafort. But it is important to note that the no-knock raid on Manafort’s apartment took place on July 26, 2017. Manafort, along with business partner and fellow Trump campaign official Rick Gates, was indicted on Oct. 27, 2017. On Feb. 22, 2018, Mueller expanded the charges against Manafort in what’s called a superseding indictment. In none of those many charges is the accusation that Manafort was involved in a scheme with Russia to influence the 2016 campaign.”

    https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/opinion/columnists/byron-york-lots-of-mueller-action-but-what-about-collusion?platform=hootsuite

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  437. So, Flynn pleading guilty (for lying about something that wasn’t illegal) because he’s down to his last nickel and can’t handle the stress on his family means what to you? Nothing?

    Bill Clinton also lied about something that wasn’t illegal. Is he a victim of fascism now too?

    Also seems odd that Flynn was “down to his last nickel”, considering the fat checks Putin and other foreign governments and companies were writing him.

    $68K from Russians during 2015, for one speech in Moscow and two in Washington.

    $530K from Turkey that slipped his mind when he was filling out his Foreign Agent Registration Act paperwork…

    Dave (445e97)

  438. They must not teach analogies at Auburn.

    DRJ (15874d)

  439. He’ll break your heart, happyfeet.

    he’d have to out-nazi robert mueller, and that’s a really high bar

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  440. Calm down, nk. The Deep State is safe, and lawyers run the country, so … winning!! Cheer up.

    random viking (6a54c2)

  441. Sorry, random viking, but you do understand that it was Trump himself who set up his supporters for this kind of mockery with his shooting somebody on Fifth Avenue comment, right?

    nk (dbc370)

  442. paul ryan likes it when daddy romney inserts himself

    into the discussion

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  443. WRT Mueller. Not everybody pled guilty. One killed himself. One settled for about $6 mill. They still don’t know about the anthrax. Four innocent guys went to jail for murder to cover for Whitey Bulger, two died in jail. That cost the feds $100 mill.
    But, of course, Mueller wasn’t in charge of withholding exculpatory evidence in the Ted Stevens case. Nor was he in charge of trying to frame Richard Jewell.
    So the idea that simply because Mueller isn’t on scene means the feebs are clean as a hound’s tooth doesn’t hold water. I mean, his absence might improve the odds of non-dirty cop work. But not eliminate it.

    Richard Aubrey (10ef71)

  444. Rosenstein doesn’t have a pulpit.

    Any report considering his action must be regarded as suspicious, most likely issued from the enemy encampment.

    papertiger (c8116c) — 4/10/2018 @ 7:09 pm

    Levin’s gist tonight was that since Cohen didn’t relate to Russian collusion Sessions should have been green lighting that kind of thing but why was Rosenstein all up in it?

    Pinandpuller (16b0b5)

  445. Bill Clinton also lied about something that wasn’t illegal. Is he a victim of fascism now too?

    Yes, Dave. And, we both know Clinton plead guilty, and he did so because he was down to his last nickel.

    random viking (6a54c2)

  446. that’s the exact resume they were looking for to fill the position herr mueller has now Mr. Aubrey

    a corrupt fbi slutboy, ethically flexible

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  447. They must not teach analogies at Auburn.

    DRJ (15874d) — 4/10/2018 @ 7:17 pm

    Is that where they talk about Fruit of the Poisoned Oak Trees or is that the OTHER place?

    Pinandpuller (16b0b5)

  448. pope lickspittle says there IS no other place but you still have to recycle

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  449. ugh our poor hapless tatters have to sprinkle missiles on syria tonight and god knows what time zone that’s in

    isn’t roseanne on tonight?

    NO SPOILERZ

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  450. Trick question. There is no fruit or acorns either. Not even filthy strawberries.

    Pinandpuller (16b0b5)

  451. Pope Francis E. Neuman. [jpg]

    papertiger (c8116c)

  452. That was a Bama fan, Pin.

    DRJ (15874d)

  453. @ Pin (#447): The DoJ rules require that before seeking a search warrant for materials in the possession of a lawyer, the local U.S. Attorney’s office has to get upstream approval. As shown in the DoJ organizational chart, U.S. Attorneys report to the Attorney General though the Deputy Attorney General, i.e., Rosenstein. So regardless of Sessions’ recusal on matters relating to the 2016 campaign — and this likely involved possible campaign finance law violations connected to the Trump campaign — this request properly went to Rosenstein.

    Beldar (fa637a)

  454. Senate GOP Leaders Warn Trump Not To Fire Mueller But Reject Calls For Legislation To Protect Him

    so the fascist democrats make a big stink that mueller must not be fired

    ***whilst***

    the nazi fagpublicans refuse to pass a bill preventing mueller from getting fired

    Conclusion: the fascists want President Trump to fire Mr. Mueller

    everything herr mueller and the wheedling rosytwat do should be see through that lens

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  455. ugh seen through that lens i mean

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  456. speaking of acorns mesquite flour‘s a thing Mr. pin

    but it’s carby so we can talk about it later

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  457. They cannot pass a bill not to fire a special prosecutor. It would be unconstitutional. The Supreme Court has already ruled on this. Special prosecutors are underlings of the President and not a fourth branch of government.

    nk (dbc370)

  458. I suppose in this analogy, Mueller is Toto pulling back the curtain.

    Hmm. Rosenstein would be Dorothy then, I guess. Either him, or Stormy Daniels.

    To preserve the analogy with Trumpkins, the other residents of Oz would have to be supporters of the Great and Powerful One as well.

    Sessions as the cowardly lion is a no-brainer.
    Hannity as the brainless scare-crow, check.
    Bannon as the heartless tin-man seems right.

    Vladimir Putin as the Wicked Witch of the … East (we’ll retcon it)

    Ruby Slippers by Ivanka(tm)! (made in Vietnam)

    Dave (445e97)

  459. Mr. nk you’re smearing vaselines on my lens why you be like that

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  460. the fascists want President Trump to fire Mr. Mueller

    Mr. Rosenstein will do, Mr. Feet.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  461. Congress cannot fire the special prosecutor, but they can defund him at any time.

    random viking (6a54c2)

  462. Mr. Dave just so you know when you use the word Trumpkins you INSTANTLY lose credibility in my eyes

    you shoulda seen me i just snapped my fingers to emphasize the instantaneity (very emphatic)

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  463. Actually the local U.S. Attorney has to go to the Criminal Division in D.C., but it, too, reports to the Deputy Attorney General (same chart).

    Beldar (fa637a)

  464. Mr. Rosenstein will do, Mr. Feet.

    he does seem to be rapidly becoming some kind of fun Plan B abortion figuring large in the nazi coup-plotters’ schemes

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  465. Thank you, Beldar, what with all the discussions, I too was beginning to worry a little whether this was a slip of the iron grip we lawyers have on the world.

    nk (dbc370)

  466. @ Quartermaster, who wrote (way back up in #115):

    At this point, Mueller’s activities are in violation of the Special Counsel law and both Mueller and Rosenstein should be in the dock.

    There is no special counsel law; perhaps you’re thinking of the last statute, the independent counsel statute, which expired in 1999. There are now regulations within the Department of Justice, which are collected in part 600 of Title 28 of the Code of Federal Regulations.

    So which one of those regulations are you relying on for your assertion that Mueller’s activities are in violation of existing law? Be specific, please, or admit that you were mistaken.

    [Spoiler alert: There’s no regulation within part 600 that Mueller or Rosenstein have been credibly alleged to have violated. The closest thing to a credible allegation was Andy McCarthy’s, at it was proved conclusively wrong when the Rosenstein memo from August 2017 was released a few days ago.]

    Beldar (fa637a)

  467. Can we think that Trump might be the lessor of the two evils

    Sure. He is in real estate, after all.

    Patterico (996bc5)

  468. Special prosecutors are underlings of the President and not a fourth branch of government.

    The could revive the Tenure of Office Act from the (Andrew) Johnson administration.

    Violating that was the formal basis for Johnson’s impeachment.

    If they wanted to play constitutional hardball, Congress could strip the appellate jurisdiction for such an act from Supreme Court.

    As a practical matter, it would be easier to simply impeach Trump, of course.

    Dave (445e97)

  469. Mr. Dave just so you know when you use the word Trumpkins you INSTANTLY lose credibility in my eyes

    Beldar made me do it!

    Dave (445e97)

  470. Rod Rosenstein faces new scrutiny for approving surveillance of Trump associate

    January 29, 2018

    Less than a year after leaving Maryland with a reputation for staying above the political fray, Deputy Attorney General Rod J. Rosenstein was thrust again into the maelstrom Monday after a report indicated he approved the continued surveillance of a Trump campaign adviser.

    The former U.S. attorney for Maryland, who served in that job under presidents of both parties, extended the surveillance of Carter Page, a former foreign policy adviser to the Trump campaign, according to a controversial congressional memo described by The New York Times.

    Just to remind you of the plethora of times that the DNC media have tried to push President Trump to rash action in regard to Rod Rosenstein.

    papertiger (c8116c)

  471. speaking of acorns mesquite flour‘s a thing Mr. pin

    but it’s carby so we can talk about it later

    happyfeet (28a91b) — 4/10/2018 @ 7:50 pm

    That sounds sweet, I bet a Savannah wife could fix you up real good.

    Pinandpuller (16b0b5)

  472. You know mr happyfeet, I saw Mueller’s face in a Marble Cookie Brownie today, that’s how I know they are both the devil. Don’t ask me how the Biunity works.

    Pinandpuller (16b0b5)

  473. brownies were invented in chicago the bar there opens at 11 am

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  474. 11 am in the morning to be precise

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  475. I would rather go to hell viz the brownie instead of Boston FBI informants.

    Pinandpuller (16b0b5)

  476. nazi renfield rod rosytwat was feeling peckish

    so he licked up all the globules

    he didn’t ask he just did it

    LEAN IN

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  477. Was there a point to the sacrifice of all those electrons?

    nk (dbc370)

  478. Justice to let all intelligence panel members see Carter Page surveillance application

    The Justice Department is allowing all House and Senate intelligence committee members to review the application that it and the FBI used to obtain a surveillance warrant on former Trump campaign aide Carter Page, according to a letter obtained by CNN Friday.

    Lawmakers will be able to review the application and renewals at a secure location at the Justice Department— something the department calls an “extraordinary accommodation.”

    The concession comes amid fresh demands this week from House Intelligence Chairman Devin Nunes to allow all members of the committee to review the materials.

    The California Republican also wants to review an unredacted version of the document the FBI used to formally begin its investigation into potential coordination between Russia and the Trump campaign in Moscow’s efforts to influence the 2016 election, an issue not addressed in Friday’s letter.

    [ letter from the office of the assistant Attorney General issued April 6th – pdf]

    So if the Steele dossier is the only thing propping up the charade, that explains this out of the blue raid on Trump’s lawyer.

    papertiger (c8116c)

  479. So if the Steele dossier is the only thing propping up the charade, that explains this out of the blue raid on Trump’s lawyer.

    It does?

    Dave (445e97)

  480. “The reason I prefer “Trumpkins” is that it’s an allusion to the Munchkins in Baum’s “Wizard of Oz.”

    – Beldar

    That’s why I use it as well. Plus, munchkins are orange (if memory serves).

    Leviticus (61c134)

  481. the nazi-sucks are just flailing around now

    madly

    mueller’s rogering his dykey wife in unheard-of positions (missionary?!?)

    rod rosytwat’s switching away from a diet of high protein insects in favor of the blood of young romanian boys

    nazi-lick jeff sessions skipped his nap

    these are wasted days

    without affection

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  482. Plus, munchkins are orange (if memory serves).

    You’re thinking of *pumpkins*.

    Dave (445e97)

  483. or maybe *traffic cones*

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  484. I like it because the suffix -kin denotes the diminutive form. E.g. pannikin, mannikin, pipkin. Little Trumpkins.

    nk (dbc370)

  485. In the iconic Technicolor movie, several Munchkins were indeed orange-haired, Leviticus, and they all featured … improbable coiffes. Bonus: The actors playing the Munchkins allegedly got all handsie around Judy Garland.

    Beldar (fa637a)

  486. Munchkins are not orange.

    Your memory is SUSPECT!!

    Muhahaha

    papertiger (c8116c)

  487. ha…

    papertiger (c8116c)

  488. Bonus: The actors playing the Munchkins allegedly got all handsie around Judy Garland.

    Tiny, tiny hands, too!

    “… and when you’re a midget they let you do it …”

    Dave (445e97)

  489. Paper, that photo will come in handy the next time The Root or HuffPo Voices asks for a photo of the white house summer intern class.

    urbanleftbehind (6279b7)

  490. Ain’t it weird how all Hollywood remakes have a completely homogeneous proportional ethnically representative cast of extras.

    papertiger (c8116c)

  491. And A Christmas Story was the last film i saw with an accurate breakdown of would be neighborhood criminals, at least in methy NW Indiana (2w/2b in Ralphies first Red Ryder sequence)

    urbanleftbehind (6279b7)

  492. If it’s ethnically proportional, how could it be completely homogeneous?

    Dave (445e97)

  493. I was just thinking about that old joke my dad told about the lady who would sell something and still own it. I got to wondering if Trump and Cohen created a Scenic Easement for prosses.

    Pinandpuller (16b0b5)

  494. I like it because the suffix -kin denotes the diminutive form. E.g. pannikin, mannikin, pipkin. Little Trumpkins.

    nk (dbc370) — 4/10/2018 @ 9:16 pm

    Trumpkith. Slap the **** outta yo’ mouth.

    Pinandpuller (16b0b5)

  495. It’s been too long since I got the rundown on redundancies like kin and kith, part and parcel etc.

    Pinandpuller (16b0b5)

  496. Was there a point to the sacrifice of all those electrons?

    nk (dbc370) — 4/10/2018 @ 8:56 pm

    Entropy and Irony

    Live together in perfect harmony

    Part and parcel in your keyboard

    Oh Lord, why don’t we?

    Pinandpuller (16b0b5)

  497. Atrios gives this little nugget of the not so distant past: https://youtu.be/FHkPadFK34o

    Tillman (a95660)

  498. The NYT reports, among other things, that the acting U.S. Attorney for the SDNY, Geoffrey Berman, has recused himself in connection with this search warrant because he was a volunteer lawyer for the Trump campaign. That makes more sense that the other reason I’d seen speculated about, which was that he’s a potential candidate for nomination to be the U.S. Attorney for SDNY on a permanent basis.

    Beldar (fa637a)

  499. Leonardo Da Vinci

    Homo Genius

    Pinandpuller (16b0b5)

  500. There’s too much recusing going on.

    Pinandpuller (16b0b5)

  501. Obligatory picture of Sir Paul McCartney, and Stevie Wonder.

    papertiger (c8116c)

  502. So if the Steele dossier is the only thing propping up the charade, that explains this out of the blue raid on Trump’s lawyer.

    papertiger (c8116c) — 4/10/2018 @ 8:57 pm

    That’s like when you get a new Queen for your hive the workers have to chew through a plug before she can come out and see what’s up. It’s allows acclimatization and extraordinary accommodation.

    Pinandpuller (16b0b5)

  503. I heard bad things about George Harrison mr papertiger. He had baby sitars watch his girlfriends while he went out.

    Pinandpuller (16b0b5)

  504. You guys might be conflating Oompa Loompas and Munchkins.

    Pinandpuller (16b0b5)

  505. Dorothy, you in danger girl!!!!

    Pinandpuller (16b0b5)

  506. Oompa Loompas

    Totally orange.

    Except for the Johnny Depp version where they were inexplicably Indian.

    [jpg]

    papertiger (c8116c)

  507. WOODBRIDGE, Va. (AP) — Police in northern Virginia say a girl has been charged after she lied to police, falsely reporting that she had been held at knifepoint by a man who ripped off her headscarf.

    Prince William County police said in a statement Tuesday that further investigation into the girl’s report revealed “no altercation had occurred.”

    Police initially said the girl reported being confronted by a man who cursed at her, displayed a small knife and placed it against her arms as he called her a “terrorist.” The girl also falsely reported that the man removed her headscarf and covered her mouth to muffle her screams before fleeing.

    AP

    Pinandpuller (16b0b5)

  508. Patterico is a cuck.

    Hi (ffbb3b)

  509. The actors playing the Munchkins allegedly got all handsie around Judy Garland.

    A rainbow coalition that knows how to guild the lollypop.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  510. A desperate couple may be forced to live in a bus as the waiting list for public housing lengthens while high-rolling tenants who buy hot-tubs and sports cars enjoy lifetime leases

    Pensioners Linda and Cole, from north Melbourne, are being evicted from their modest private home because they can no longer afford the rent.

    The couple have repeatedly applied for public housing but are now coming to terms with living in an old bus which has been owned by their family for years.

    ‘This is not a game, this is reality. This is life,’ Linda told A Current Affair.

    Talking about her agonising wait for a public house, she said: ‘I’ve given up. We don’t stand a chance at all. I really think we’ve given up.’

    Linda then turned to her husband and asked ‘what’s your favourite saying?’ before he replied: ‘It doesn’t pay to be honest.’

    Cole’s remark was a dig at the thousands of public housing tenants who now earn enough to pay full rent in the private market but stay in state-subsidised homes because they were given lifetime leases or because their declared income is low enough to meet requirements.

    Contrast: One housing tenant Angelo Dallas enjoys the stylish two-bedroom apartment while he is ‘in between jobs’. Pictured: His flash cars outside his public house

    Dallas said: ‘You need to be comfortable where you live, and if that means purchasing a hot tub, then I do it.’ Pictured: The bachelor’s hot tub in his public house

    This Victorian public housing tenant Angelo Dallas is living in luxury with two luxury cars while paying just $100 a week for rent

    Daily Mail

    Pinandpuller (2d6b5f)

  511. Hi says, “Patterico is a cuck.”

    A martyr wannabe.

    noel (b4d580)

  512. Patterico is a cuck.
    Hi (ffbb3b) — 4/10/2018 @ 10:49 pm

    Said the worshiper of Roy Cohn’s slicked-up boy toy (that would be Trump).

    nk (dbc370)

  513. And what kind of insecure Neanderthal runs around calling people “cucks”?

    noel (b4d580)

  514. For the love of Pete…

    Do y’all not realize the Wizard is the good guy? Yes, he’s a charlatan, a mountebank, and a blowhard but it turns out that his bluster is just a facade when Toto pulls back the curtain to reveal a man who truly cares about people. The Munchkins are happy under his leadership, working their lollipop guilds and such. The Merry Old Land Of Oz provides a pretty good life. It’s the alternative, the Wicked Witch of the West who’s the real evil. Her and her flying monkeys.

    If y’all only had a brain, a heart, the nerve.

    Skorcher (5b282a)

  515. But ignoring the nonsense …. It’s a long way to November in this tofu on avocado toast age. Will this generate enough anger among Republicans to go to the polls in droves or will the 25 new Trumpastrophes have erased it from the public consciousness?

    nk (dbc370)

  516. There we go. I consulted Wikipedia…..

    “According to white supremacist Richard B. Spencer, the term is a shorthand used to express “a certain kind of contempt for mainstream conservatives”.

    noel (b4d580)

  517. I will bet that if Trump decides to fire Rosenstein, he does it with the cover of a Syria strike. He does know the art of the distraction.

    noel (b4d580)

  518. 505, gross I don’t want to see Angela Merkel and (Cook County IL Pres.) Toni Preckwinkel this early.

    urbanleftbehind (6279b7)

  519. It’s like “Russian Collusion” was something they used to prime the pump of this entire Entrenched Bureaucracy Self-Interest Last Stand at the Public Trough Sucking Machine.

    Colonel Haiku (b209d4)

  520. No mo Speaker Eddie Haskell!

    urbanleftbehind (6279b7)

  521. The Wizard was a figurehead who had no answers but wanted adulation and respect.

    DRJ (15874d)

  522. And here, boys and girls, we see the fundamental problem. A simple children’s story (well, ok not so simple but still a children’s story) about the struggle, on one side a Wizard whose subjects lead happy lives and on the other a wicked witch and her flying monkeys. Notice the word “wicked”. This really shouldn’t be so hard to understand. That sometimes people in leadership positions are flawed but can bring out the good in people. A leader who can help them understand their inner strength, power, possibilities, potential for growth. On the other side, a wicked witch. On one side, happy Munchkins. On the other, ugly flying monkeys. Most people, children in fact, can understand such things. But it takes a real intellectual to gum it all up by over thinking.

    Some people are flawed, maybe a bit silly, but can do great good for the world. Others are fundamentally evil. Another mystery solved.

    Skorcher (5b282a)

  523. Actually, Baum intended it as an allegory about humbugs and mountebanks who don’t give people anything that they don’t already have, with a shot thrown in at the gold bugs (the yellow brick road).

    nk (dbc370)

  524. The Wonderful Wizard of Oz is a well-known political allegory. For instance, one analysis is that it is an allegory about Populism:

    Since most of us don’t walk around thinking about the social movements and political debates of the late 1800s, a quick refresher on populism is in order. Similar to parties on our political landscape today, the Populist movement was a rising third-party campaign of angry disenfranchised “plain people” (farmers and, to a smaller degree, factory workers) seeking to wrest power from bankers and business leaders. United under the banner of the People’s (Populist) Party, these men and women sought fundamental economic change in order to break the power of concentrated capital. Populists advocated for bimetallism (the coining of both gold and silver), nationalizing the railroads, a graduated income tax, and a decrease in immigration. They believed that adopting silver (in addition to the gold standard) would pump money into the economy, resulting in limited inflation—a good change for people paying mortgages, a bad one for the banks holding loans.

    In his close reading of The Wizard of Oz, Littlefield argued that most of the characters and settings in Baum’s fictional world represented real people, places, and ideas from the Populist movement of the 1890s. He expected that most adult readers of the time would have understood Baum’s allusions. A few of the highlights from the article were …

    ***

    While further analysis of The Wizard of Oz is probably unnecessary, understanding the factors that promoted the Populist movement in the first place present an opportunity for insight into current events. In retrospect, the concerns that galvanized Populists to action in the 1890s were not as clear cut as they seem at first glance. As economic historian Anne Mayhew points out, ”farmers began to complain about railroad rates, interest rates, and problems of obtaining credit in a period when freight rates and interest rates were falling rapidly and when . . . credit was easily available.” Perhaps American farmers were looking for something to blame as their lives were going through chaotic change. Their protests may be best explained by American agriculture’s general movement into commercial production, international markets, and the cash economy. Mayhew observes that in the modern world farmers “found the railroad agent, the bank officer, the equipment salesman, and the grain elevator operator tyrannical because they did not respond, as the country store owner had earlier, to tales of a bad year, family illness, or other such problems.

    Sound familiar?

    DRJ (15874d)

  525. Breaking- Another ‘wave goodbye': Speaker Ryan will not run for re-election. 2012 GOP Veep candidate a quitter.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  526. The Wizard represents establishment politicians (who promise everything but deliver nothing) in Washington DC (the Emerald City) that you reach by following the yellow brick road (the Gold Standard).

    DRJ (15874d)

  527. DRJ: Sound familiar?

    Yes, the shallow need to caricature people in lieu of a coherent argument sounds very familiar.

    random viking (55d5fb)

  528. What’s the coherent argument for Trump besides that he’s not Hillary?

    nk (dbc370)

  529. And so it goes…Flying monkeys are starting to swarm…While I’m quite certain bi-metalism was in the back, or even front, of Baum’s mind when creating the story, if his intention truly was to infuse into young people’s heads a political statement, by all accounts out here it a place called reality, he failed miserably. Millions and millions of people are quite familiar with the story of Oz. I doubt one in 100,000 understands the fundamental argument of bimetalism or any similar such thing. Intellectuals, so called, especially the politicized kind, must inject their own mental illnesses into everything on their radar scopes.

    Being this is, as reality is concerned, a children’s story, one that many fine people (i.e. not “intellectuals”) consider dear to the character building of their youth, you can ask yourself one question…Are you a monkey or a munchkin?

    Skorcher (5b282a)

  530. I’m the farmer who wants to run Oscar Zoroaster Phadrig Isaac Norman Henkle Emmannuel Ambroise Diggs out of the county.

    nk (dbc370)

  531. I’m a muppet!

    felipe (5b25e2)

  532. What’s the coherent argument for an alternative other than he’s not Trump?

    random viking (6a54c2)

  533. Someone who is Presidential in his lifestyle, speech and manner; intelligent; informed; educated; conscientious; diligent; industrious; even-tempered … oh, wait, sorry, you did say “other than he’s not Trump” and the person I’m describing is exactly “not Trump”.

    nk (dbc370)


  534. 533.What’s the coherent argument for Trump besides that he’s not Hillary?
    nk (dbc370) — 4/11/2018 @ 7:44 am


    How about not only isn’t he Hillary but he also is no other leftist democrat? Or isn’t that good enough for ya? You neverTrumpers don’t realize Trump isn’t the reason for all the hate and all the attacks on our Constitution, he’s the excuse. The left hates us. They would have gone just as crazy if Cruz won. It wasn’t in their pre-fixed plan. Or haven’t you noticed they’ve spent since November trying to “undo” what we Deplorables did?

    Rev.Hoagie (1b0402)


  535. 538.Someone who is Presidential in his lifestyle, speech and manner; intelligent; informed; educated; conscientious; diligent; industrious; even-tempered


    So some RINO like McCain or Romney or perhaps Dole? IOW another loser for the R’s and a winner for the left!

    Rev.Hoagie (1b0402)

  536. Cruz would never make deals with a Democratic Congress that go against his principles. Trump would, but don’t take my word for it. Watch him in his last two years as President.

    DRJ (15874d)

  537. President Trump is a much better president than George W. Bush was who slaughtered all our hapless tatters and mutilated them also. This was very bad president skills.

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  538. Cruz would never make deals with a Democratic Congress that go against his principles.

    That’s true, for two reasons:

    1. He wouldn’t make deals with anyone, as he had a worse relationship with Congress than even Trump.

    2. He wouldn’t have been in the position to make deals, because Hillary would’ve carried Michigan, Pennsylvania and Wisconsin.

    random viking (6a54c2)

  539. Trump has no principles, DRJ. He already does only what he perceives as his momentary interest and follows the path of least resistance, as we saw with DACA, the Second Amendment, and the Omnibus.

    nk (dbc370)

  540. “Okay, Cassandra. How about you finish rewriting the Constitution and all of due process law, plus the U.S. Attorneys’ Handbook and related regulations, the way you expect them to read, and email it all to Jeff Sessions? Mm-kay? Let’s just trash the presumption of innocence. Cassandra expects to be kept informed!” beldar

    Why not? Trashing the fourth amendment seems a-ok with you. And I must have missed the section of the constitution on Special prosecutors get to investigate anything the president ever did and anyone he ever knew.

    Let’s see hmmm U.S. Attorney’s Manual, Section 9-13.420. When one reads the guidelines, prosecutors are admonished that, because raiding a lawyer’s office has serious constitutional implications, it should be avoided unless truly essential to a significant criminal investigation.

    Okay, now pay attention, Beldar, our difference of opinion is as follows: So far nothing Mueller has found has been significant, and almost all of it seems to be minor infractions, many of which have been generated by the investigation. Despite this evidence you are assuming they wouldn’t go against the guidance if it was more of the same, I’m assuming…not so much.

    History is on my side. Can I ask – why do you trust these guys?

    Cassandra (c33ba9)

  541. Cassandra, you don’t know, and I don’t know either, what Mueller has and hasn’t found. From that, I conclude that I don’t know what Muller has found, and you conclude that he’s found nothing important. One of us is full of crap.

    Beldar (fa637a)

  542. No, let’s take this a step further:

    My prediction: The investigation will eventually (over months) yield some charges (how could it not?) but they will be less than impressive. Let’s see…obstruction of justice….tax evasion, wire fraud (it will be made to sound much worse than it is). Nothing that could not have been charged without the raids. The investigation will leak continuously, with breathless reports from insiders in the Washington Post and NYT. Despite this being against the rules and illegal, no one will ever be investigated or punished for leaking. You and Patterico will sit back and act like Nelson Muntz conservatives. Ha-Hah.

    Your Prediction: Well, they would never do something like this unless it is serious, so Cohen will quickly be charged with serious crimes. Extortion? Racketeering? Hiring a hit man against Stormy Daniels? The investigation will be performed to the highest standards, they will be no leaks, and the entire thing will be quickly, and fairly concluded.

    Now I know, I’m cheating a bit, because there have already been leaks. But you keep acting like announcing information is tantamount to breaking the constitution, while leaking it is not a problem, barely an inconvenience, so I’m going to just stick that in there.

    Now, I want to say I very much hope you are right and I am wrong. That would be better for the country. I would love nothing better than to be wrong, to have my cynicism dispelled like a morning fog. To look back on this incident and say, yeah, that is how justice should be done.

    So we shall see.

    Cassandra (a815b9)

  543. He’s a sitar hero (red spot above his eyes)
    He’s a sitar hero. [jpg]
    He took one sitar (sitar hero, red spot above his eyes)
    Sitar hero, (spot above his eyes) he’ll come alive tonight!

    Refer to # 507

    papertiger (c8116c)

  544. Stop putting words in my mouth. You don’t have that permission. And your guesses are spectacularly wrong. You don’t speak for me, and you’ve shown yourself unwilling or incapable of guessing what I might say or think. Speak for yourself only, please, Cassandra.

    Beldar (fa637a)

  545. I would love nothing better than to be wrong

    That’s good, because you’ve been wrong so frequently.

    Chuck Bartowski (bc1c71)

  546. Populism is a word for when George Soros (and other foreigners rich enough to buy politicians by the bushell) don’t approve the outcome of a fair election.

    papertiger (c8116c)

  547. No Democrat, for instance, has ever been elected as the result of populism.

    (How could that be pt? What about Clinton? WHat about Obama?)

    Check their wikipedia page.

    papertiger (c8116c)

  548. Do Metro passes and Sec 8 in The Wiz represent Fiat Money?

    Pinandpuller (ab37f4)

  549. papertiger

    You’re singing to the choir, my man.

    Pinandpuller (ab37f4)

  550. “The investigation will leak continuously”

    The investigation has been notoriously un-leaky.

    Davethulhu (fab944)

  551. Bush I was undercut by populism.

    Pinandpuller (ab37f4)

  552. Perot + AWB+ Tax Increase

    Pinandpuller (ab37f4)

  553. Like when you notch one side of the tree and Clinton was the ax to the backside that drops it.

    Pinandpuller (ab37f4)

  554. meanwhile dirty fbi slutboy jim comey is reduced to calling President Trump silly and juvenile names

    grow the eff up

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  555. Geoffrey Berman, the U.S. attorney for the Southern District of New York, has reportedly recused himself from the investigation. Berman was appointed by Attorney General Jeff Sessions in January after meeting with Trump in late 2017.

    So everyone telling us to calm down because hey, it was a Trump appointee calling the shots, I eagerly await your recognition of reality.

    Cassandra (a815b9)

  556. Cassandra’s right these dirty fbi sluts are leaking like crazy

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  557. “Stop putting words in my mouth. You don’t have that permission. And your guesses are spectacularly wrong. You don’t speak for me, and you’ve shown yourself unwilling or incapable of guessing what I might say or think. Speak for yourself only, please, Cassandra.” beldar

    I thought I summarized your position quite fairly based on your posts – feel free to make whatever adjustments you deem to your prediction. As you say, one of us it right, and the other is wrong. So I’ve laid my marker down, and I assume you believe the opposite of what I do based on your repeated disagreements.

    If you don’t call the shot, you don’t get to say “I meant that” after.

    Cassandra (a815b9)

  558. did Berman recuse himself or did dirty rod rosytwat force him aside

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  559. Trump is in charge of the Executive Branch. His job includes nominating US Attorneys. If Obama holdovers are calling the shots because Trump waited a year to make his nominations, then he should be blaming himself for not doing a better job during his Transition.

    DRJ (15874d)

  560. No, you’re engaging in fantasies in which you try to guess what I say, Cassandra. That makes you a fabulist. Cut it out, or I’ll start making up stuff that I think you might say.

    Beldar (fa637a)

  561. No, you’re engaging in fantasies in which you try to guess what I say, Cassandra. That makes you a fabulist. Cut it out, or I’ll start making up stuff that I think you might say.
    Beldar (fa637a) — 4/11/2018 @ 12:24 pm

    That is still not an answer. Make a prediction. You insist I am most definitely absolutely wrong. Okay, lay out what you expect to happen that is different from what I have said. Easy-peasy.

    Cassandra (a815b9)

  562. Maybe Cassandra is a dental hygienist Mr Beldar.

    Pinandpuller (51e9e9)

  563. In August of 2017, Politico reported Trump personally interviewed Berman, “a move that critics say raises questions about whether they can be sufficiently independent from the president,” for the job as the U.S. Attorney in New York’s Southern District. Five months later, Attorney General Jeff Sessions appointed Bernam to the post as interim chief. An executive move, Sessions was permitted by law to fill a vacant position.

    Berman was not confirmed by the U.S. Senate and is serving in an interim role as one of the nation’s top federal prosecutors. And he’ll remain ‘interim’ until he’s confirmed. It’s not clear if or when a hearing date will be set.

    In announcing the appointment, Sessions said Berman “brings three decades of invaluable experience,” to the post. Sessions said Berman would “lead an incredible team of attorneys and investigators and help provide New Yorkers with safety, security, and peace of mind. I am pleased to appoint him to this important role.”

    papertiger (c8116c)

  564. > Since we have a “special” persecutor, why not have a special process?

    The DoJ does have a special process for special prosecutors.

    The federal court system already has a special process for handling situations where it is alleged that attorney client data should not be protected via attorney-client privilige. It’s not *common*, but it’s not unheard of, and there are rules that are being followed.

    What alternative rules would you prepare?

    > I want to know straight up what what crimes they are alleging to justify this raid.

    That’s a very, very, very bad idea.

    Investigators do not publically announce what they are invetigating *in order to protect the reputation of the person being investigated*. A large percentage of the population will believe someone being investigated for $x is guilty of $x, just because, and that risks permanently endangering a person’s reputation (plus it risks tainting the jury pool).

    > “That is *precisely* the behavior expected in a situation like this.” Well, that is where we part ways.

    What do you expect to happen when an investigation into $x instead yields information indicating crime $y?

    There are three options I see:

    (a) broaden the investigation of $x to include $y

    (b) ignore $y

    (c) refer $y to a different investigator

    of these three, (c) strikes me as being best *from a procedural sense* if $y isn’t trivial and isn’t closely related to #x.

    which do you prefer *as a general rule*?

    > But to many people, this appears pretty damn bad.

    Why do you think it is more likely to be the case that this is partisan malfeasance on the part of DOJ, rather than an actual indication that Trump, for whatever reason, surrounds himself with people who behave badly?

    aphrael (e0cdc9)

  565. I’m guessing Cassandra is being crossed off the invite list to Beldar’s tupperware party.

    random viking (329078)

  566. Wolf claimed Trump leaks but he isn’t the only one to believe Trump and member(s) of his staff are leaking information.

    DRJ (15874d)

  567. August 2017 was 7 months after Trump’s Inauguration. I guess nominating the US Attorney for his own State and town wasn’t high on Trump’s list of things to do. I bet he regrets that now.

    DRJ (15874d)

  568. Fourteen months later, Attorney General Jeff Sessions still dragging [dingo].

    What a worthless son of a double dealing lazy sack of [dingo]

    papertiger (c8116c)

  569. jeffy sessions is too many bigoted and lazy and he has no principles

    personally i’d be embarrassed if America turned nazi while i was supposedly the attorney general

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  570. So now the whole world lets Trump down?

    DRJ (15874d)

  571. Coincidentally, narcissists are never to blame.

    DRJ (15874d)

  572. McCarthy: “Yet, as that lawyer, Michael Cohen, has discovered, what was not a crime in the Obama days is the crime of the century now. ”

    This bit never gets old.

    But, as our host has wisely said, a Hillary wrong doesn’t negate Trump’s wrong.

    And, Obama’s wrong doesn’t negate Trump’s wrong.

    And generally, a Democrat wrong doesn’t negate a Republican’s wrong.

    And in the end only Republican wrongs matter. This is our path to success.

    random viking (329078)

  573. Cassandra, I decide what I will write about. I decide on its timing, its substance, its tone, and everything else about it.

    I’m rarely criticized, here or elsewhere, as being a man of too few words.

    You have deeply crazy and wrong ideas about criminal justice that I’ve tried, politely, to correct, as have other commenters here (including aphrael just above) who are practicing lawyers or at least have a more realistic conception of civil liberties and criminal prosecutions. I’ve written as much in response to your crazy ideas as I care to; you’re obviously just interested in being disagreeable, and you’re succeeding at that, but only that.

    On the broader subjects of the Mueller investigation, Trump’s jeopardy with respect thereto, and all the other political and legal aspects of this, I’ll write what I want, when I want it, and I’ll continue to take grave offense if you try to pretend you are speaking for me.

    Beldar (fa637a)

  574. You have deeply crazy and wrong ideas about criminal justice

    Not just crazy crazy, but deeply crazy. Yes. Of course.

    Skorcher (5b282a)

  575. Politico implies that the President is supposed to hire US Attorneys (a hundred of them) without an interview.

    Sounds like another one of the deep state’s zany catch 22s, perfectly designed to circumvent the will of the people.

    papertiger (c8116c)

  576. Trump must delegate. He only has 4 years and he can’t do everything himself like an episode of The Apprentice.

    DRJ (15874d)

  577. The Transition is when he should have been doing these things. I bet Christie had focused on these things but he fired Christie and gave the job to Pence, and a lot of important things did not get done. Maybe it was Christie or Pence or maybe it was Trump, but the buck stops with Trump.

    DRJ (15874d)

  578. My first comment on this thread (#77) said:

    Unless you’re actually part of the prosecution team, you know no more than what’s in the newspapers, which is a whole lot less than one needs to know to make the kind of super-confident assessments you’re purporting to make.

    Every single pro-Trump commenter here presumes that he or she knows everything important that needs to be known to form an emphatic, damning opinion.

    Not a single one of them actually does.

    Our host quoted that at #80, in case you missed it.

    Since I don’t know whether there was or wasn’t a good underlying affidavit or other evidence to establish probable cause, I don’t know whether this warrant was righteous or wrong. I certainly don’t know what results were obtained, if any, through execution of the warrant.

    So no, I will decline the demand, expressed insultingly, from Cassandra that I give her my “easy-peasy” predictions about the future.

    And yes, Skorcher (#580), the notion that, for example, Cassandra is entitled to look over Mueller’s shoulder in real time as he conducts this investigation, that she’s entitled to a list of the possible crimes he’s investigating, and that he run his investigation the way she thinks it ought to be done instead of the way the substantive law requires, is indeed deeply crazy and wrong. If you want to make the contrary case, I invite you to do so. If not, then thanks for the snarky but cowardly drive-by comment.

    Beldar (fa637a)

  579. One thing we found out from this incident, it doesn’t matter too much if you go through the vetting process to get your own guy in the attorney’s office.
    The [dingo] ducks out on you at the critical moment either way (unless you’re a Democrat of course).

    So [crikey] off and not wasting time vetting attorneys is the smart play. Time is money.
    Should have just left Preetinder Bhahaha in there. Save himself the bother.

    papertiger (c8116c)

  580. That deserves a better headline Rob.

    CORRUPT MUSLIM LAWYER ROBERT KHUZAMI, HOLDOVER FROM THE OBAMA ERA IN THE NEW YORK ATTORNEY’S OFFICE, APPROVED THE RAID ON TRUMP’S LAWYER WITHOUT JUSTICE DEPARTMENT OVERSITE

    link.

    That about cover it?

    I look forward to your cards and letters.

    papertiger (c8116c)

  581. Video follow up on Robert Khazani and the rogue elements within the U.S. Attorney’s Office of Lower New York.

    [YouTube]

    papertiger (c8116c)

  582. Who would’ve guessed that a skunk lawyer would be behind that!?!?

    Colonel Haiku (b209d4)

  583. Not a Trump fan, eh DRJ?

    Colonel Haiku (b209d4)

  584. Who would have guessed that the lawyer who suddenly evoked so much love for lawyers would be a lawyer who fits every lawyer joke? (I’m talking about Cohen.)

    nk (dbc370)

  585. I like the cut of your jib, Cassandra. You take a stance. Unlike so many others here. I’ve asked this question so many times, but the No!No!No!Ahhhhhhh!Trump! crowd never quite gets around to answering it. Namely, presumably we are all conservatives in some way, shape or form.

    Given that, here’s the reality: whoever you voted for other than Trump in the primaries lost. So, we have Hillary and Trump in the general. Who did you vote for? And if someone says something inane like “Well, the premise of the choice being binary is flawed, so…”, I call bullsh*t. And whoever says it a coward as well. Because the choice was Clinton or Trump. Wrote your own name in? You are an idiot.

    Now, answer the damned question, and then we’ll have a civilized debate about current events. But if you won’t answer that simple question (the sanctity of the voting booth my ass, cowards), then what are you? Who are you to look at Election Day and contemplate Original Sin as you sneer at people in desperate straits who saw some glimmer of hope of a better life? Who are you to look down your nose at those who saw in the Clintons the true depths of moral depravity, and decided that Trump was the better choice.

    Morally preening jack wagons, no need to direct the comment, you know who you are. Sip your lattes and laugh at the deplorables. You know, the average men and women who actually appreciate the return of jobs and a chance to live a middle class dream. The Trumpkins! who work in the energy sector, which has finally been unleashed. The Americans at the bottom of the economic ladder who have to compete with the “undocumented”, with their stolen identities and untraceable income.

    Yeah, all that is just…terrible. Clutch your pearls and drape yourselves on your fainting couches, you effete snobs. You serve no purpose, because you don’t appear to actually stand for anything. You are intellectually dishonest. Your virtue is a lie.

    Now, kindly sit down, STFU, and let the great unwashed masses, oh deplorables every one of them, chase their dreams free of your shabby morality. Jesus Christ.

    And, oh yeah, Trumpkin!, Trumpalo! are as tediously banal as NeverTrumper or Cucksevative. Anyone using the terms is the guy at the party on his fifth drink, the odd glimmer in his eye and half as smart as he believes himself to be. He’ll stare down at the ground and tell himself it must be clever repartee – all the best people are doing it! When he looks up, a dozen relieved people will have fled the corner. So shaddup with the inanities and talk like, you know, a real person.

    Estarcatus (d19e9c)

  586. The trouble with the legal profession is that 98% of its members give the rest a bad name.

    Colonel Haiku (b209d4)

  587. Papertiger,

    No, that’s not an accurate headline and completely misstates what was reported.

    He’s a flunky that breaks the rules for his friends and hides evidence.

    NJRob (3ac49c)

  588. I would pay good money to see Beldar and Joe DiGenova go at it over the Cohen matter and the Mueller approach overall. Each man is impressive and each have important data and beliefs to share.

    My suspicion is that JD has the better of the argument, but he most certainly lacks specific proof at this point.

    Ed from SFV (1752e1)

  589. Q: How do you get a lawyer out of a tree?
    A: Cut the rope.

    Colonel Haiku (b209d4)

  590. Talk about the cut of ones jib, Estarcatus, yours is pretty well cut too. Kudos.

    Rev.Hoagie (1b0402)

  591. “During the mid-1980s dairy farmers decided there was too much cheap milk at the supermarket. So the government bought and slaughtered 1.6 million cows. How come the government never does anything like this with lawyers?”
    – P.J. O’Rourke

    Colonel Haiku (b209d4)

  592. Who’s going to eat them?

    nk (dbc370)

  593. Pigs.

    Colonel Haiku (b209d4)

  594. Are you sure?

    nk (dbc370)

  595. A man in a bar stands up and proclaims, “All Lawyers are ASSHOLES!”
    A man at the front of the bar stands up and says, “Hey! I resent that!”
    So the first man asks, “Why, are you a lawyer?”
    “NO! I’m an asshole!”

    Colonel Haiku (b209d4)

  596. As the lawyer woke up after surgery, he said” “Why are all the blinds drawn?”

    The doctor answered: “There’s a big fire across the street, and we didn’t want you to think the operation was a failure.”

    Colonel Haiku (b209d4)

  597. Ok, I hadn’t heard that one.

    nk (dbc370)

  598. STATE OF ALASKA ATTORNEY SEASON AND BAG LIMITS
    **** 1300.01 GENERAL
    1. Any person with a valid Alaska state hunting license may harvest attorneys.
    2. Taking of attorneys with traps or deadfalls is permitted. The use of currency as bait is prohibited.
    3. Killing of attorneys with a vehicle is prohibited. If accidentally struck, remove dead attorney to roadside and proceed to nearest car wash.
    4. It is unlawful to chase, herd, or harvest attorneys from a snow machine, helicopter, or aircraft.
    5. It shall be unlawful to shout “whiplash,” “ambulance,” or “free Perrier” for the purpose of trapping attorneys.
    6. It shall be unlawful to hunt attorneys within 100 yards of BMW dealerships.
    7. It shall be unlawful to use cocaine, young boys, $100 bills, prostitutes, or vehicle accidents to attract attorneys.
    8. It shall be unlawful to hunt attorneys within 200 yards of courtrooms, law libraries, whooah-houses, health spas, gay bars, ambulances, or hospitals.
    9. If an attorney is elected to government office, it shall be a felony to hunt, trap, or possess it.
    10. Stuffed or mounted attorneys must have a state health department inspection for AIDS, rabies, and vermin.
    11. It shall be illegal for a hunter to disguise himself as a reporter, drug dealer, pimp, female legal clerk, sheep, accident victim, bookie, or tax accountant for the purpose of hunting attorneys.

    Colonel Haiku (b209d4)

  599. You seem to have more than the average share of intelligence for a man of your background,” sneered the lawyer at a witness on the stand.

    “If I wasn’t under oath, I’d return the compliment,” replied the witness.

    Colonel Haiku (b209d4)

  600. I think it’s too late to unring the bell, Rob.

    Here goes.

    CORRUPT OBAMA FLUNKIE ROBERT KHUZAMI IN THE NEW YORK ATTORNEY’S OFFICE, APPROVED THE COHEN RAID WITHOUT JUSTICE DEPARTMENT APPROVAL.

    How’s that?

    papertiger (c8116c)

  601. So now the whole world lets Trump down?

    Poor President Snowflake. We’re all so unworthy of him.

    Dave (445e97)

  602. Exactly the result I expected.

    Estarcatus (d19e9c)

  603. You can speak for yourself, Dave. And I agree with you… you are not worthy.

    Colonel Haiku (b209d4)

  604. This is supposedly a true story. A racketeer was on trial. His lawyer told him, “Don’t worry. A man with as much money as you have does not go to prison.” And it worked out exactly that way. When the case was over, the lawyer had the money and the client went to prison.

    nk (dbc370)

  605. i can vouch for this

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  606. Q: What is the ideal weight of a lawyer?

    A: About three pounds, including the urn.

    random viking (6a54c2)

  607. One morning a blind bunny was hopping down the bunny trail, and he tripped over a large snake and fell, Ker-plop!, right on his twitchy little nose.

    “Oh, please excuse me!” said the ever-so-polite bunny. “I didn’t mean to trip over you, but I’m blind and couldn’t see.”

    “That’s perfectly all right,” replied the snake. “To be sure, it was MY fault. I didn’t mean to trip you, but I’m blind too, and I didn’t see you coming. By the way, what kind of animal are you?”

    “Well, I really don’t know,” said the bunny. “I’m blind, and I’ve never seen myself. Maybe you could examine me and find out.”

    So the snake felt the bunny all over, and he said, “Well, you’re soft, and cuddly, and you have long silky ears, and a little fluffy tail, and a dear twitchy little nose; YOU must be a BUNNY RABBIT!” And the little blind bunny was so pleased he danced with joy.

    Then he said, “I can’t thank you enough, but, by the way, WHAT kind of animal are YOU?”

    And the snake replied that he didn’t know, and the bunny agreed to examine HIM, and when he was finished, the snake said,

    “Well, what kind of an animal am I?” So the bunny felt the snake all over, and he replied, “You’re hard, you’re cold, you’re slimy, and you haven’t got any balls… You must be a lawyer.”

    Colonel Haiku (b209d4)

  608. thumper has some crazy adventures

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  609. heh

    papertiger (c8116c)

  610. That deserves a better headline Rob.

    CORRUPT MUSLIM LAWYER ROBERT KHUZAMI, HOLDOVER FROM THE OBAMA ERA IN THE NEW YORK ATTORNEY’S OFFICE, APPROVED THE RAID ON TRUMP’S LAWYER WITHOUT JUSTICE DEPARTMENT OVERSITE

    Literally fake news. Check the reference to a WSJ article within your article: https://www.wsj.com/articles/manhattan-federal-prosecutor-recuses-himself-from-cohen-probe-1523399871

    It’s paywalled, but you can still see the first two paragraphs, the second of which starts with the following:

    “The deputy U.S. attorney, Robert Khuzami, whom Mr. Berman hired upon taking office in January

    Here’s more proof: https://www.nytimes.com/2018/01/05/business/robert-khuzami-us-attorneys-office.html

    “Robert S. Khuzami, who led the enforcement division of the Securities and Exchange Commission for four years during the Obama administration, was named on Friday as the deputy United States attorney in Manhattan.

    Mr. Khuzami’s selection was announced by Geoffrey S. Berman, who was appointed this week as the interim United States attorney for the Southern District of New York and who is expected to be nominated to the post by President Trump.”

    Not an Obama holdover. Hired by a Trump appointee.

    Davethulhu (081885)

  611. how do you slice it to where Khuzami isn’t dirty dirty swamp trash who probably has Mueller’s tacky-ass dyke wife as a saturday night side-piece

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  612. Only the best people

    Davethulhu (081885)

  613. yes yes

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  614. “In the real world, the Trump administration is humming along. Its domestic policies are sensible and have been remarkably successful in a short time. Abroad, the administration has pursued American interests, again with considerable success. It has also made progress, at least, at cleaning up the appalling messes left behind by Barack Obama in Iran, Syria, Russia and North Korea. By any objective standard, the Trump administration is, so far, a major improvement on its predecessor.

    But our “news” organizations have little interest in any of those topics. They are obsessed with tweets, with ten-year-old liaisons, with non-existent collusion and with investigations of nothing that apparently will never end. In their parallel world, Trump is such a failure that he might as well quit and save the Democrats the trouble of impeaching him. (For what? is a question that rarely seems to be asked.)

    Take yesterday’s press briefing by Sarah Sanders. As always, she began by describing the substantive work going on in the White House that day. As always, the press corps ignored such mundane topics and went straight to la-la land.”

    http://www.powerlineblog.com/archives/2018/04/washington-lies-in-a-parallel-universe.php

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  615. Cohen said he’d rather “Jump out of a building rather than turn on Donald Trump”. But then I noticed that he was only on the first floor when he said it.

    “Lets see now. Turn on him or spend the rest of my one and only life in jail. Hmm. Let me think. Ah. Well. Let me think some more…”

    noel (b4d580)

  616. once the fbi gestapo police state starts

    it’s not going to stop

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  617. I don’t like treating this as a criminal matter if it’s solely about campaign finance violations. Unfortunately, those are typically treated like regulatory and not criminal matters. We should care about those violations but Washington never has, so it’s questionable to start now.

    If this is solely a campaign finance case, Trump should have the DOJ revisit prior cases for any violations that can be pursued, or at least to gather the facts about past cases and make the political argument that this is arbitrary or abusive selective prosecution.

    Howevet, we don’t know the scope of the investigation. It’s certainly possible there is far more to this than campaign finance issues.

    DRJ (15874d)

  618. “Lets see now. Turn on him or spend the rest of my one and only life in jail. Hmm. Let me think. Ah. Well. Let me think some more…”

    Fortunately for Cohen, his corrupt boss can and probably will pardon him.

    Dave (445e97)

  619. Exactly the result I expected.

    Estarcatus (d19e9c) — 4/11/2018 @ 7:07 pm

    You come on to a thread, two days after it started, when many people have already abandoned it. You insult half your audience, poisoning the well in the process, to the point where most of the few people who read it and disagreed with them probably thought “Why bother?” Then you don’t even give them half an hour to meet your asinine challenge before sneering this line.

    I mean, I sure HOPE you didn’t expect a constructive dialogue. Or any kind of dialogue at all, really.

    By the way, if you’re the kind of person who likes Trump, I’m feeling pretty good about my vote for Gary Johnson. #NotBinary

    Demosthenes (09f714)

  620. Howevet, we don’t know the scope of the investigation. It’s certainly possible there is far more to this than campaign finance issues.

    DRJ thinks there’s a scope to the investigation. Another lawyer joke?

    random viking (6a54c2)

  621. RE: 626

    And yet you replied. I don’t speak for Trump voters. I speak for and about people who stood in the voting booth and actually took a difficult decision. Real Americans derisively sneered at by week in the knees, lilly livered blowhards. They didn’t have the luxury of moral vanity: they felt their vote actually mattered, and it did. Because of them, one of the most corrupt politicians in the history of our fine Republic is not sitting in the Oval Office.

    At least you had the courage to stick your neck out and actually tell the truth. I’ll give you that. If you live in a state where your vote might have made a difference, I won’t give you much else.

    It’s all too easy for the denizens of places such as, say, California to sit back and make petty value judgements about their fellow citizens: it was rather easy for them as those 55 electoral votes were going to Hillary no matter how they voted. Yet they then somehow believe they stood above the fray, that they didn’t sully their fineries, kept their skirts clean. Guess what: you didn’t. That anyone as described feels they have the moral authority to judge others is laughable. Others had to do the heavy lifting, and now you usher them out the backdoor lest your neighbors see the dirty brutes walk across your meticulously manicured lawn.

    So, Trump is President now. Who here would say that was not the better outcome? Because, reality check, it was Trump or Hillary. Hillary or Trump. I might understand the level of vitriol directed at those who voted for Trump over at the HuffPo, but here? Pat, you have less and less in common with your readers? Why is that, exactly? Let me take a stab at it: your blind hatred for Trump has unmanned you. Not everyone who felt the need to vote for Trump slavishly supports his every move. And not everyone who has a genuine concern that maybe, just maybe, their is more than a whiff of corruption bubbling up from the morass that is the FBI, the DOJ and the odious Mr. Meuller is some mindless dolt unable to reason out, all on their own, cause and effect. Trumpkin! So easy to throw that term in someone’s face: denigrate the man, brand him a fool and disengage. It requires not the effort of a measured debate. It makes me wonder: who, again, is the zealot, the blind adherent to a certain dogma? Less in common indeed, but perhaps not for the reasons you believe.

    Anyone else have the guts to say who they voted for and why?

    Estarcatus (d19e9c)

  622. I wrote in Vladimir Putin. He is a strong leader who has control of his country.

    nk (dbc370)

  623. Estarcatus says, “And not everyone who has a genuine concern that maybe, just maybe, their is more than a whiff of corruption bubbling up from the morass that is the FBI, the DOJ”

    Well Trumpkins, why is it exactly that you cannot “whiff the corruption” when it comes to the man with the fake university? The lying accuser of Birthirism fame? The man with the “fixer” of all things sleazy? The guy who wants loyalty and, if not, fires the investigators? Wants an Attorney General who has his back when it comes to his personal legal jeopardy? The man who stayed silent while his whole campaign/Administration denied Russia meetings?

    Where’s the whiff? Not there? But your fantasies about a corrupt FBI and DOJ stink of desperation. Especially since these men are among the finest Republicans that Trump has appointed.

    Some of us could see the slimy Clinton behavior without being blind to Trump’s. Why can’t the Trumpkins?

    noel (b4d580)

  624. Estarcatus….”Pat, you have less and less in common with your readers? Why is that, exactly? Let me take a stab at it: your blind hatred for Trump has unmanned you.”

    “Blind hatred”? “Unmanned you”?

    I love it when Trump’s folks keep saying Pat, you, me or whoever “hates” Trump. What? Its a cheap-shot and highly inaccurate but it makes them feel justified in their blind loyalty.

    As for “unmanned”? Who the hell knows what stupid remarks like that are supposed to mean.

    noel (b4d580)


  625. Some of us could see the slimy Clinton behavior without being blind to Trump’s. Why can’t the Trumpkins?


    Because of what you did right there, noel. You believe everyone and anyone who currently supports the President of the United States is worthy of being called a derogatory name like “Trumpkin”. That’s like calling my stepson a n****r. In your mind it’s the lowest name you could call someone of that ilk. I’m sure that’s why people like you use it, as an insult. Well, get over it pansy-ass Trump is president and he is doing a pretty good job so far. Or am I wrong? Is he doing exactly what Hillary would have done and is further driving the American Republic toward communism?

    The other thing you leftists do when you call everybody a Trumkin is you ignore those of us who BTW are the majority, that did not “support” Trump until he became our candidate. Fools like Demosthenes who insist a realistically binary choice between the only two people who could have possibly won was in fact #notbinary are just that, fools. He voted for Johnson but I helped carry Pennsylvania, a swing state for Trump. You’re welcome. If not for guys like me you’d have Hillary, not Johnson as president. And thanks to fools like Demosthenes Hillary zombies have been droning on and on about the popular vote since 10:07 PM, Nov. 8, 21016. Had it not been for the idiots who voted for other “no binary” candidates Trump would have won the popular vote which would shut up the Hillary zombies. But no, you guys had to signal your virtue like leftist wannabes by throwing away your vote in a foolish attempt of appearing above the fray.

    Believe it or not and if you took the time to listen instead of wearing your pussy hat and screaming at the sky with your leftist friends and calling us the political version of n****r you my realize we do NOT blindly follow the every word of Trump. But all you guys do is b!tch about his personal failures and crudeness constantly. Sorry, we only have the one guy so we, as adults realize we have to take is crap personality and vulgar tones to get Judge Gorsuch instead of another Ginsberg, regulation reductions instead of 20,000 new regs a year and so forth. But you girls just can’t get past his vulgar personal characteristics long enough to realize he’s doing yeoman’s work fighting back the left and exposing the corruption which has been institutionalized under the “nice” Republicans like The Bushes and both institutionalized and militarized under the malevolent left like Clinton and Obama and their communist cronies Holder, Hillary et al.

    Frankly, I’d rather be counted among those Deplorable Trumpkins who value Patriotism, the Constitution and our Historical Heritage than side with leftists who kneel during the National Anthem, march in protest of the Second Amendment and pull down statues of historical American figures. But like Estarcatus, I look around and see all the people and institutions that hate conservatives, Republicans and America with a white hot passion also hating Trump and not being able to accept his win and I know I’m on the right team.

    Rev.Hoagie (1b0402)

  626. Rev.Hoagie says, “Because of what you did right there, noel. You believe everyone and anyone who currently supports the President of the United States is worthy of being called a derogatory name like “Trumpkin”. That’s like calling my stepson a n****r”.

    Seriously? Even for you, that is strange.

    noel (b4d580)

  627. By the way, if you’re the kind of person who likes Trump, I’m feeling pretty good about my vote for Gary Johnson. #NotBinary

    Demosthenes (09f714) — 4/11/2018 @ 10:17 pm

    Johnson is feeling pretty good too… but that’s because he just smoked two joints and then he smoked two more. What’s your excuse?

    Colonel Haiku (b209d4)

  628. It’s another Gimpinista Sunrise…

    Colonel Haiku (b209d4)

  629. Alt-right Dictionary…. “Cuck”, “Pussy Hat”, “Unmanned”, “Neutered”.

    Starting to see a common thread. These guys may even have a doctorate but their heart is still in eighth grade.

    noel (b4d580)

  630. It’s called projection, noel. Or maybe they do honestly believe that “RealMenPutOnKneepadsForTrump. Who can say?

    nk (dbc370)

  631. #RealMenPutOnKneepadsForTrump

    nk (dbc370)

  632. Seriously? Even for you, that is strange.
    noel (b4d580) — 4/12/2018 @ 5:21 am

    There are none so blind as those who will not see. You are the reason you got President Trump.

    Calling people Trumpkins or Trumpalos or any of the other dozen pejoratives being used does not help your cause. People respond in kind most of the time. My first response when someone calls me a Trumpkin is usually “Go F yourself!” Comparing it to the n-word is not strange, it’s a matter of degree. The sentiment is the same, if not the emotional charge.

    I still hope he gets impeached. While he’s in office however, I want the country to succeed. It was said earlier, but bears repeating… it doesn’t matter which Republican nominee won… not to the progressives. Any Republican President is “worse than Hitler” and would face the same level of vitriol, partisan sniping, Deep State (and yes, it exists on every level of government) obstruction, and numerous other challenges being faced today. Only the specifics would differ.

    If President Trump is impeached, you’ll see President Pence face much of the same.

    Stashiu3 (466cdf)

  633. #RealMenPutOnKneepadsForTrump
    nk (dbc370) — 4/12/2018 @ 5:29 am

    And… we’re back to the homoerotic projection. Be back later. Be well.

    Stashiu3 (466cdf)

  634. I didn’t know “Trumpkins” was such an offensive name. Holy moly.

    Can I use “Punkins”? You know with all the “orange” thing of Trump’s. It may be appropriate but not quite as sensitive. Also, it is one of my favorite terms of endearment.

    noel (b4d580)

  635. Rev.Hoagie says, “You are the reason you got President Trump.”

    Oh no you don’t. You are NOT pointing the finger of blame at me. I may have done some pretty damn stupid and irresponsible things in my life (I used “may” when I meant something else) but don’t accuse me of that.

    noel (b4d580)

  636. how lovely to see a veteran advocating the impeachment of the commander in chief without just cause

    the us military is such a corrupt sleazy joke anymore

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  637. dirty military is no good

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  638. Why do you keep saying the “US Military”? For us folks who live here, it’s just called the “military”.

    noel (b4d580)

  639. no it’s the us military check the letterhead

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  640. What does the FBI letterhead say? You heard from them yet?

    noel (b4d580)

  641. the fbi letterhead’s all a clutter with swastikas and rousing slogans about the new fatherland we’re creating

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  642. I have the feeling you will find out differently.

    noel (b4d580)

  643. you’re pretty enthusiastic about this whole police state thing huh

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  644. Oh, I don’t like to ever see innocent folks get into trouble.

    noel (b4d580)

  645. Happy has more to fear from the CPD, especially next summer when Irish Gerry takes the reins away from Rahm.

    urbanleftbehind (6279b7)

  646. Via Drudge (honest):
    https://www.mediaite.com/online/gop-congressman-rips-trump-in-insane-tirade-to-journo-evil-really-fcking-stupid-forrest-gump/

    “I say a lot of sh[]t on TV defending him, even over this. But honestly, I wish the motherf[]er would just go away. We’re going to lose the House, lose the Senate, and lose a bunch of states because of him. All his supporters will blame us for what we have or have not done, but he hasn’t led. He wakes up in the morning, sh[]ts all over Twitter, sh[]ts all over us, sh[]ts all over his staff, then hits golf balls. F[]k him. Of course, I can’t say that in public or I’d get run out of town.”

    Read the whole thing.

    nk (dbc370)

  647. Quick happyfeet, tell me, how many Senators and Congressman are in Washington and who is on the Supreme Court?

    noel (b4d580)

  648. Los Angeles painting city streets white in bid to combat climate change

    this is so very odd not least because of the exorbitant cost

    but think about what this means

    we know and also they know that enhanced albedo is a very powerful mechanism by which the erf sheds heat

    and the albedo effect is far far more powerful than anything that can be attributed to the little carbon dioxide molecules

    this is geoengineering, and it will likely have a measurable cooling effect if they see the project through

    the implications are kinda profound cause it says people – california leftists specifically – are willing to support mitigation efforts wholly unrelated to draconian carbon reduction policies

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  649. Hint: Real Americans have no idea.

    noel (b4d580)

  650. I’ll read a little bit more to you:

    The congressman continued that “they just might pull the trigger if the President fires Mueller,” and that “sh[]t will hit the fan if that happens and I’d vote to impeach him myself.”

    “Most of us [Republicans] would, I think,” he added. “If we’re going to lose because of him, we might as well impeach the motherf[]er. Take him out with us and let Mike [Pence] take over. At least then we could sleep well at night.”

    nk (dbc370)

  651. You can use punkins, Gimpinista.

    Colonel Haiku (89ebb5)

  652. of course i know how many there are and lots of real americans know this

    there 435 reps 99 senators and 1 cowardly useless John McCain

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  653. Who is this Congressman? I like him.

    noel (b4d580)

  654. In between grocery aisles, Red State gets the bum scoop.

    Colonel Haiku (89ebb5)

  655. Gimpinista? You got me crying, you monster!

    noel (b4d580)

  656. Crying is acceptable, just go easy on the pillow…

    Colonel Haiku (89ebb5)

  657. Another Republican who doesn’t recognize a war is on…

    Colonel Haiku (89ebb5)

  658. ACLU Celebrates Raid On Trump’s Lawyer

    what’s unquestionable is how this is the exact same reaction they would have had if the fbi gestapo had raided food stamp’s lawyer

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  659. There you go again, happyfeet. You say,”lots of real americans know this” when you should say “lots of us do know this you arrogant biotch”. When you talk the way you do, you make me suspect that you’re in some Siberian Shitehole typing under 50 different names.

    noel (b4d580)

  660. Another demographic component endangered, Democrats hardest hit… https://tse4.mm.bing.net/th?id=OIP.IAMD84fFOVTQy9M3b0XvpQHaFj&w=286&h=206&c=7&o=5&pid=1.7

    Colonel Haiku (89ebb5)

  661. i’m in chicago

    let’s go cubbies let’s go (clap clap)

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  662. Go cubs. Isn’t that Fenway Park beautiful?

    noel (b4d580)

  663. yes yes it is here is where I’m a do brunch this weekend

    there’s so much goodness here the Lemon Crab Cake Benedict might could be how i go with the Summer Peach French Toast for the table:

    red wine poached pears, red wine reduction, creme anglaise, almonds

    They really kinda sell it don’t they?

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  664. Estarcatus,

    I have said many times that I voted for Trump to keep Texas red, because I could tell a lot of Texans who regularly vote Republican would not vote for Trump. I won’t vote for Trump again.

    DRJ (15874d)

  665. The Cubs play at Kaminsky Field.

    nk (dbc370)

  666. Except when they play the Green Bay Brewers at Lambert Park.

    nk (dbc370)

  667. Not this Kaminsky.

    urbanleftbehind (5eecdb)

  668. @ 626

    And yet you replied.

    As an act of charity.

    #WhatCanISayExceptYou’reWelcome

    Re-lurking now. Got a life to live; won’t waste it on this. Bye, everyone!

    Demosthenes (86a0cd)

  669. noel: I didn’t know “Trumpkins” was such an offensive name. Holy moly.

    I think the settled term is “Deplorables”. Why change it?

    random viking (1f2597)

  670. Deplorables? No, half of my family has bought into Trump’s University. I would not use that term.

    noel (b4d580)

  671. We settled on Trumpkins here a year before Hillary came up with Deplorables. Among other candidates was Trumpaddodles, my favorite.

    nk (dbc370)

  672. Trumpadoodles.

    nk (dbc370)

  673. Trump stalwarts or Trump aficionados if you please

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  674. Trumpleorangeskins? Just tossing things around.

    noel (b4d580)

  675. Yea. The Washington Orangeskins!

    noel (b4d580)


  676. 641.I didn’t know “Trumpkins” was such an offensive name. Holy moly.


    Yes you did you liar, that’s why you chose to use it. Don’t back away now coward.

    Can I use “Punkins”? You know with all the “orange” thing of Trump’s. It may be appropriate but not quite as sensitive. Also, it is one of my favorite terms of endearment.
    noel (b4d580) — 4/12/2018 @ 5:52 am

    You can use any pejorative term you want it’s a partially free country if you’re not a n****R, I mean Deplorable Trumpkin. When you use “Trumpin” you are using what you believe to be the worst possible slang term to describe a person who, even if for only that one issue of the moment supports Trump. It’s the same as a racist using N****r as the worst possible slang name to call the person at the moment. So for comparison purposes it fits. If you were just trying to debate a Trump act or policy you would use the term “supporter” not a derogatory term “Trumpin”. You language belies your obfuscation.

    Rev.Hoagie (1b0402)


  677. 679.Trumpadoodles.
    680.Trump stalwarts or Trump aficionados if you please
    681.Trumpleorangeskins? Just tossing things around.

    682.Yea. The Washington Orangeskins!
    noel (b4d580) — 4/12/2018 @ 7:56 am


    How about just “Trump supporter”, a$$hole? Or is that too civil for a deranged leftist?

    Rev.Hoagie (1b0402)

  678. Please Rev.Hoagie, stop with the n-word nonsense. If you have some issues you need to deal with there, I really don’t need to know.

    noel (b4d580)

  679. “How about just “Trump supporter”, a$$hole? Or is that too civil for a deranged leftist?”….. this message has been sponsored by the Rev.Hoagie.

    OK. Let me be clear. I am not qualified to help you.

    noel (b4d580)

  680. noel, the Left is much more skilled at coming up with clever pejorative terms. Learn from them. Actually, I think you and your cohorts here already are.

    random viking (6a54c2)

  681. Trumpaloompas?

    nk (dbc370)

  682. No, Hoagie. Trumpkin is not like the n-word. It’s like Commie, lefty and leftist. Denoting political orientation. Unless Trump founded a new race, Trumpkins, when I wasn’t looking.

    nk (dbc370)

  683. Unless Trump founded a new race, Trumpkins, when I wasn’t looking

    “Hold my Diet Coke”:
    http://www.cnbc.com/2018/04/12/doorman-brokered-30000-tabloid-deal-over-trump-paternity-rumor-reports.html

    urbanleftbehind (5eecdb)

  684. You’re wasting your time arguing with the Wicked Witch’s flying monkeys. They’re “intellectuals”. They think the Wizard of Oz was about 19th century coinage. You could beat them over the head with a sledge hammer (not that I’m suggesting such) and they’d still not get your point. They’re enraptured with what they’ve learned from books, the printed word, etc. They think their laws actually create wealth. Completely full of themselves.

    In context, I’ll take Trumpkin any day. Better that than a flying monkey.

    Skorcher (5b282a)

  685. Literacy: The curse of mankind!
    Ignorance is bliss, and Trumpkins the happiest people on Earth.

    nk (dbc370)

  686. Sounds like Cohen wasn’t fixing what really needed “fixing”, urbanleftbehind.

    nk (dbc370)

  687. Demosthenes, I hate to see you go but I don’t blame you. It is hard to have a discussion here anymore.

    DRJ (15874d)

  688. It is hard to have a discussion here anymore.

    Yes, can we please stay focused on pejorative labels and caricatures?

    random viking (6a54c2)

  689. Some might find this useful…I never knew the WW’s guards had a name…Apparently they’re called “Winkies”…I like that better than “flying monkeys”

    Skorcher (5b282a)

  690. Too bad Jim Hoft relies on self-professed twinkies

    urbanleftbehind (5eecdb)

  691. Yes, can we please stay focused on pejorative labels and caricatures?

    Don’t forgot Beldar’s spell checking. That is always fun.

    BuDuh (677c23)

  692. Have I done that, random viking? I don’t intend to. I’m sorry if I have.

    DRJ (15874d)

  693. Demosthenes calls an active thread “abandoned” and then abandons the whole site when he realizes it isn’t abandoned?

    Some discussion.

    BuDuh (677c23)

  694. Trumps the president, latest democrat poll show their support for 2018 has dropped and is evaporating, we. Got six half years of trump to go. There is going to be another round of tax cuts this year.

    Trump last week signed an executive order limiting access of welfare for able bodied recipients, this may trim two hundred billion or more each year alone, this is what got the Clinton surpluses.

    The plans I saw was an overall six percent reduction in social security through caps on wealth, age etc

    So it’s going to be awhile

    EPWJ (37d014)

  695. There is plenty of anger, sarcasm, and insults in most discussions these days. Demosthenes’ “why waste [my time] on this?” makes sense to me.

    But I have 30 minutes of free time. Are you interested in discussion, BuDuh?

    DRJ (15874d)

  696. @657 happyfeet

    If the streets are white you won’t be as likely to step on human waste or needles.

    Pinandpuller (bf7b15)

  697. noel

    If you’re at a family gathering and you look left and right and don’t see a deplorable it’s you.

    Pinandpuller (bf7b15)

  698. @695

    They have this thing a thing at Tractor Supply Calle do an elastrator.

    Pinandpuller (bf7b15)

  699. Skorcher, I know you aren’t impressed but I am interested in children’s stories with political messages or undertones. Dr Suess was known for it, and so was the Wizard of Oz.

    DRJ (15874d)

  700. No, not on Calle Dos. Called…it fixes everything but low T.

    Pinandpuller (bf7b15)

  701. Dr Sweet is a creepy nom de plume if you ask me.

    Pinandpuller (bf7b15)

  702. It’s like how all those intellectuals try to make a big deal out of a beautiful children’s story about a baby who was born in a manger and a star and three wise men and a tree and Santa bringing presents to good boys and girls, DRJ. Just because they’re enraptured because of what they learned from some book, the printed word, etc.

    nk (dbc370)

  703. DRJ: Have I done that, random viking? I don’t intend to. I’m sorry if I have.

    I believe you expanded on the whole shallow Wizard of Oz analogy. Apology not needed, but accepted. We Trumpkins/Deplorables don’t frequent safe spaces. Those are for you guys.

    random viking (1f2597)

  704. Just don’t put Beldar in a corner. Nobody puts Beldar in a corner.

    Cassandra (a815b9)

  705. “The Little Red Hen” for example. Shall we compare children’s stories analogies and whoever has the most wins? They’re children’s stories for a reason.

    random viking (1f2597)

  706. DRJ, Again you are over-intellectualizing. I first heard this silly cross-of-gold or whatever story attached to WoO when I was in college. Political people were always running their mouths about the latest BS they got from their sacred sources. It’s urban legend BS. Similar to the nonsense that GM couldn’t sell the Nova in Argentina (or wherever) because in Spanish “No va” means “don’t go”. You can argue with such people until the cows come home it is to no avail. People are easily led to believe such nonsense when they are fooled into thinking that they used their brains to sift it out. Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar. Quite often in fact.

    But humor me…please show me where it is documented that Mr. Baum meant The Wizard of Oz to be anything other than a nice children’s tale. Unlike some people, I am interested to know when I am wrong about such things.

    Skorcher (5b282a)

  707. Poky Little Puppy was written by a nice Texan lady who had a keen understanding of puppy behaviors.

    This book is the most best selling children’s book in the whole world, or at least at one point it was.

    This book was written before America descended into fascism and Americans widely adopted Nazi values, so it probably should be banned on facebook.

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  708. I believe there is a populist political message to the Wizard of Oz, random viking, and there are parallels to today’s issues. Pointing out the similarities of the concerns of ordinary people (*) in both generations seem reasonable to me. I did not mean to make any kind of deplorable comparison.

    (*) For instance, one of those similarities is immigration. I’m worried about illegal immigrants so I’m an “ordinary person” on that issue.

    DRJ (15874d)

  709. Drj

    Did u read the whole series, also my grandfather worked briefly w dr suess who wrote marketing materials for esso

    EPWJ (5f3710)

  710. No free time at the moment, DRJ.

    BuDuh (612663)

  711. I’ll do my best, Skorcher, but it will have to be later today. I have to take my son to a hospital appointment.

    DRJ (15874d)

  712. I’m leaving, too, BuDuh. Maybe later.

    DRJ (15874d)

  713. Literacy: The curse of mankind!
    Ignorance is bliss, and Trumpkins the happiest people on Earth.

    Missed that. Heh. Walt Disney was a homosexual. We know this because Donald Duck didn’t wear pants and wiggled his butt around. And because we are “literate”, unlike the dumb, dumb, dummies who didn’t go to kolledge and take classes is grown-up stuff like Psychology. Did I spell that right?

    Skorcher (5b282a)

  714. It iz wery interestink dot you vould chuze an egzampel of a duck vich is named Donald und doez not vear der pantz in connection mit der homozegzuality. Wery interestinK.

    nk (dbc370)

  715. No, Hoagie. Trumpkin is not like the n-word. It’s like Commie, lefty and leftist. Denoting political orientation. Unless Trump founded a new race, Trumpkins, when I wasn’t looking.

    nk (dbc370) — 4/12/2018 @ 8:21 am

    It’s definitely not as fun to say.

    Pinandpuller (16b0b5)

  716. It iz wery interestink dot you vould chuze an egzampel of a duck vich is named Donald und doez not vear der pantz in connection mit der homozegzuality. Wery interestinK.

    nk (dbc370) — 4/12/2018 @ 11:03 am

    What is the first thing that comes to mind when I say “Corkscrew Penis”?

    Pinandpuller (16b0b5)

  717. Did anyone else coin the word “Trumplestiltskin” as a guy who weaves golden hair out of straw because I’m totally calling that one?

    Pinandpuller (16b0b5)

  718. 720. Skorcher, there are some very smart people who didn’t go to college. But most people aren’t willing to put the time in, and read everything they need to read, to become well educated.

    I can think of one good example where what is called “common sense” can be wrong. I understand that Pasteur was thought to be crazy for thinking that microbes can make a person sick. After all, how can tiny bugs so small you can’t see them, ever make a relatively gigantic person sick?

    There are plenty of examples like that. Without learning more somehow, usually through books or training, we would never have learned about bacteria and a lot of other science we take for granted today.

    On the opposite end of the continuum, yes, there can be people who are “over-educated” and analyse everything too much. But you can go too far with anything. Drinking too much water at a time can kill you, but that doesn’t make water poison. The same goes for education.

    Tillman (a95660)

  719. Why thank you, Tillman. Until this very moment, right here right now, I did not understand that. It is well and good that there are educated people, I presume you are one, who are available to explain such things. Why, how would I know what my point was if someone like you didn’t come along and explain it to me.

    While I have your wise and knowledgable attention, can you tell me in the story of The Wonderful Wizard of Oz was the Wizard of Oz a good man or a bad man? Also, was it a story devised to push the economic, social and political ramifications of bimetalism to six year olds? Was it wrong of me not to use the Oxford Comma there? These appear to be the real tough questions we’re stumbling upon on this thread. Seems no matter how much education one gets, one can never figure such things out for one’s self.

    Skorcher (5b282a)

  720. I wasn’t trying to be condescending Skorcher. You just sound to me like you hate college or education, thus my response.

    Tillman (a95660)

  721. Education increases your knowledge but it doesn’t make you smarter.

    Pinandpuller (16b0b5)

  722. Sorry, Tillman…Yes a bit over the top. No, I don’t hate college or education as concepts. I do strongly resent the haughty attitude (hence my own OTT push back) that comes with much of it. Higher education focuses waaaaay too much on memorization and not enough critical thinking. Yet the more education people seem to have, the less able they are to question their previously infused beliefs. Once the Narrative gets hold of them and convinces them that it is smart to think such-and-such and that if you think such-and-such you will be smart too. And get a ‘A’. Critical thinkers are born out in the real world where, through the hard knocks school of empiricism, one learns true skepticism.

    Skorcher (5b282a)

  723. Of making books there is no end and much study is a weariness of the flesh. With much wisdom comes much vexation, and he who increases knowledge increases his detestation for an orange-skinned baboon in the White House.

    Or something like that.

    nk (dbc370)

  724. Like Jerry Clower said, a lot of people are educated beyond their intelligence.

    Pinandpuller (16b0b5)

  725. Like Jerry Clower said, a lot of people are educated beyond their intelligence.

    And then the go to law school.

    Skorcher (5b282a)

  726. Skorcher I’m not sure the point of your exorcise. You seem to complain about people having different opinions. Well study philosophy, like I have and you’ll get used to epistemological conundrums. (This bring’s Dewey’s The Quest for Certainty to mind.)

    Tillman (a95660)

  727. Well since it’s Spring and y’all are talking about barnyard animals I thought you might be interested in sexing chickens…it’s not what you think:

    Several breeds are used in red sex link breeding, they are usually named by parents used.

    Golden Comets are probably the best known, they are also bred wrong by most smaller breeders. I have even seen an advertisement on Craigslist for “full blooded Golden Comets”. To have a full blooded Golden Comet is impossible. They are created by breeding a White Plymouth Rock hen to a New Hampshire Red rooster. When these chicks hatch, the males will be white, the females will have a red cast. The males will grow to be mostly white, with some red spots showing through, females will be mostly red with some white spots especially in the tails and lower wings. Most commercial strains use smaller parent birds for better feed to egg conversions.
    The most common problems people have when trying to do this cross themselves is the silver gene needed in the White Plymouth Rocks. Hatchery stock New Hampshire Reds may have a cross in them that throws it off too. Chicks from White Plymouth Rocks that carry the silver gene will be smoky gray in color, and will be all white as adults. Another advantage of the silver gene is their feathers wont turn yellow in the sun like White Rocks bred without it.

    Backyard Chickens

    Pinandpuller (16b0b5)

  728. One man’s Educational is another man’s Trivial, wouldn’t you say?

    Pinandpuller (16b0b5)

  729. 734… Teh Exorcism of Tillie III… from American International Pictures

    Colonel Haiku (89ebb5)

  730. What is the first thing that comes to mind when I say “Corkscrew Penis”?

    Pinandpuller (16b0b5) — 4/12/2018 @ 11:08 am

    Wente Vineyards

    Colonel Haiku (89ebb5)

  731. About what I thought. Celebrate your empty moral vanitities, move on from the discussion and continue with the horse manure about stupid labels. Yeah, calling someone a Trumpkin is an insult meant to pigeonhole someone and shut off any meaningful conversation. I get that it’s easier than actually engaging. But it’s also cowardice. Note: I don’t call someone who disagrees with me a silly name, turn my back and walk away. I might actually learn something and be swayed by your point of view. But God forbid that you have to start from a place of honesty. That’d be awful, wouldn’t it? Might have to jump start a few neurons.

    Two people took up the challenge and stated who the voted for. Two. Again, exactly what I expected. And I get that you might have voted for Trump and cringe every time a new tweet comes rolling out like a loose cannon ball. Boy, do I get that. But appreciating the pivot to what appears to be governance that is actually good for the welfare of the governed is not mutually exclusive of the cringe factor. It’s nuanced. It’s complicated. But: Trumpalo! A stupid a term as Chicken Hawk. That anyone believes this passes for intellectual discourse should give the listener pause. Because it isn’t, never shall be and those that utter such inanities are unserious men, in a time when true gravitas is sorely lacking but desperately needed. Grow up and grow a pair. Men put away childish things, for they must. If your testicles have not descended, go hang out at the Daily Kos: they specialize in mindless drivel.

    Estarcatus (d19e9c)

  732. Dewey is singularly responsible for turning the word “liberal” into a pejorative, not that it was his intent.

    random viking (fb7eb9)

  733. Skorcher,

    I think you may be right that my Baum story is a myth. Thank you for pressing the point. I learned something interesting today.

    DRJ (d18ca6)

  734. Dewey is singularly responsible for turning the word “liberal” into a pejorative, not that it was his intent.

    random viking (fb7eb9) — 4/12/2018 @ 12:21 pm

    But you do know exactly where to go to find it!

    Pinandpuller (16b0b5)

  735. you seem to complain about people having different opinions. Well study philosophy, like I have and you’ll get used to epistemological conundrums.

    And there it is…See, I try to be nice with an ounce of contrition…I’ve studied philosophy. On my own. Without being told what to think. In the modern world context, I’ve found it very wanting. Even the non-Marxist stuff is tainted with the burden of that albatross. People are entitled to their own opinion, they are not entitled to their own facts.

    Skorcher (5b282a)

  736. the Wente family, who is recognized for their influence in making Chardonnay the best-selling varietal in the country, based on numerous accomplishments over the past 130 years. The development of the Wente clone spread to thousands of vineyards across California and the winery was the first to introduce a varietally-labeled California Chardonnay. The Wente family is proud to be recognized as “California’s First Family of Chardonnay.”

    I knew there was a bent in The Starr Report but I didn’t know it spiraled out of control.

    Pinandpuller (16b0b5)

  737. Well the first thing I learned in Philosophy is Love of Knowledge so what else is there?

    Pinandpuller (16b0b5)

  738. I think you may be right that my Baum story is a myth.

    Kudos, DRJ. C’est la vie, as the Frenchies say. Or so I’m told.

    Skorcher (5b282a)

  739. Well the first thing I learned in Philosophy is Love of Knowledge so what else is there?

    From what I have seen in the last 100 years or so, as to the waters of Casablanca, you were misinformed.

    Skorcher (5b282a)

  740. Well I’m sort of shocked, shocked, you didn’t spot the etymology.

    Pinandpuller (16b0b5)

  741. >Well I’m sort of shocked, shocked, you didn’t spot the etymology.

    I’m just not that into insects.

    Skorcher (5b282a)

  742. My dad is one of six kids. He’s the only one to not get a degree but he’s no dummy. He was a combat engineer, a rancher and farmer and a wildland firefighter.

    When they were growing up one of my aunt’s, who’s an accomplished radiologist and university professor, was driving a pickup truck for my grandpa. She entered a cattle guard not lined up properly and scraped the pickup on a gatepost from one end to the other.

    She said, “I didn’t have my glasses.” My dad replied,”Couldn’t you hear it?!”

    Pinandpuller (16b0b5)

  743. I’m just not that into insects.

    Skorcher (5b282a) — 4/12/2018 @ 12:44 pm

    So is a Thorax from Disney or Dr Sweet?

    Pinandpuller (16b0b5)

  744. My thought is if you didn’t learn something today you really went out of your way to avoid it.

    Pinandpuller (16b0b5)

  745. So is a Thorax from Disney or Dr Sweet?

    I thought Thorax was a Sacha Cohen character.

    Skorcher (5b282a)

  746. #740 Estarcatus (d19e9c) well said sir. Too late in the thread for most people – take no offence at the lack of response.

    It never ceases to amaze me how our intellectual betters will openly debate the best possible derogatory term to use, while at the same time berating Trump supporters for not listening to and respecting their superior knowledge. All with no sense of irony. As well said by David Brooks, the essential problem is that anti-Trumpism has a tendency to be insufferably condescending. I would add as well, they are relentlessly dishonest. Not always on facts, but in the way they frame a subject. For example, pointing to the things Trump has not accomplished (yet) while ignoring the things he has accomplished. Or quickly moving on when events show that Trump’s bluster and blather have yielded a tangible win for conservatives.

    It is all just a smokescreen for the visceral dislike of Trump the man. And I get that – I feel the same way. But I at least attempt to police myself for those feelings that color my perspective.

    I did not vote for Trump – I cast a protest vote for someone else (not Hillary). But in a deeply red state, I thought it would not matter and it didn’t. And, as I have said, I am pleasantly surprised at what has resulted. I feared much worse.

    Cassandra (a815b9)


  747. I did not vote for Trump – I cast a protest vote for someone else (not Hillary). But in a deeply red state, I thought it would not matter and it didn’t.


    But now you see it did matter. Oh, not as far as the election went. We still won even without the help of folks like you, Cassandra. But after Trump was elected and now for these 15 months we hear every time we get in a discussion how Trump didn’t win the popular vote. All those millions of “protest votes” could have and would have shut the door on that miserable sad argument and any time we can deprive the enemy of anything it is good. All votes count regardless of state. You had the same effect on the election as a person who didn’t vote at all. And the same effect after the election of giving the enemy a valid talking point.

    Rev.Hoagie (1b0402)

  748. Rev.Hoagie (1b0402) – Point taken. But in my defense, I was assured a Hillary landslide no matter what I did. So I thought my lesson was to the Republican establishment – give me something to vote for and less to vote against. But I was wrong and you were right. See how easy that was Nevertrumpers?

    I will disagree with the phrase “giving the enemy a valid talking point.” Enemies don’t have “talking points”. We say what we say and do what we do, and we misjudge one another, and situations, and make mistakes, and have to revise our opinions.

    Actually, I love the fact that Trump lost the popular vote but won the election – I find it quite hysterical in fact. So many leftists have outed themselves on being utterly ignorant on the constitution. And perhaps running up your vote total in true blue states is not the answer, and a move toward the middle would be better for democrats. Let’s hope they learn something about far left policies – they won’t sell.

    Cassandra (a815b9)

  749. Skorcher,

    Even if Baum was not writing a political metaphor and even though no one viewed it that way, I still believe the myth captures what was happening politically in the late 1880-1890’s. Don’t you think it was a populist period characterized by conflicts between ordinary people (farmers in the Jeffersonian/Jacksonian/Lincoln tradition) and elites (bankers, etc., in the Hamiltonian mode)?

    DRJ (15874d)

  750. Oz: How hard can it be to kill a Wicked Witch?

    papertiger (c8116c)

  751. Like Jerry Clower said, a lot of people are educated beyond their intelligence.

    And then the go to law school.

    For Trumpkins, it is: “And then they go to middle school.”

    nk (dbc370)

  752. Trump is to Trumpkin as NK is to idjit. Didn’t even have to make up a cutesy little word. Now go get me a juice box, fancy boy. Get to steppin’ pardner.

    Estarcatus (d19e9c)

  753. Now go get me a juice box, fancy boy. Get to steppin’ pardner.

    Said Putin to Trump.

    nk (dbc370)


  754. For Trumpkins, it is: “And then they go to middle school.”
    nk (dbc370) — 4/12/2018 @ 4:21 pm


    You are so clever, nk. Unfortunately your bigotry isn’t amusing.

    Rev.Hoagie (1b0402)

  755. Over 100 comments since Demosthenes claimed the thread was abandoned?

    BuDuh (2c1baf)

  756. @760. Pfft. Haven’t seen so much outgassing since Voyager swept past Io.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  757. Love this blocking script. Thank you, Taney. Thank you, Beldar. Thank you, felipe.

    nk (dbc370)


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