Patterico's Pontifications

1/12/2018

Suspect in Deadly Kansas SWATting Charged with Manslaughter

Filed under: General — Patterico @ 9:30 pm

Tyler Barriss, the suspected serial SWATter who was arrested after a hoax phone call to police led to the death of Andrew Finch in Wichita, Kansas, has now been charged with manslaughter:

The Los Angeles man at the center of what is believed to be the first fatal “swatting” incident in the U.S. has been charged with manslaughter in connection with a hoax phone call that led to a deadly shooting in Kansas, records show.

Tyler Rai Barriss, 25, was charged with involuntary manslaughter and interference with law enforcement, according to court records made public Friday. Barriss has also been accused of making a false alarm, a felony.

Authorities allege that a dispute over an online video game led Barriss to call a Wichita, Kan., police dispatcher and falsely claim that he had shot his father and was holding two other people hostage inside a Wichita home on Dec. 28.

But Barriss was in Los Angeles, not Kansas, and there was no hostage situation. When Wichita police responded, a man, later identified as Andy Finch, 28, emerged from the front door and was fatally shot by an officer.

. . . .

If convicted of involuntary manslaughter, Barriss could face up to 11 years and three months in prison, depending on his criminal history, Bennett said.

I think he should have been charged with murder. But this is better than the lousy “making a false alarm” charge that he was extradited for. I hope they didn’t screw it up by not charging the manslaughter before the extradition.

If you’re new to this story, you can read my post about this deadly SWATting here, as well as my own account of having been a SWATting victim in the past. I published the audio of the SWATting call and the body cam footage of the shooting here.

[Cross-posted at RedState and The Jury Talks Back.]

150 Responses to “Suspect in Deadly Kansas SWATting Charged with Manslaughter”

  1. They don’t put you on a bus to Wichita for spitting on the sidewalk.

    papertiger (c8116c)

  2. Hey, I was right about the Involuntary Manslaughter charge.

    How could they have screwed up by not charging him with that before after the extradition?

    Xmas (3a75bb)

  3. I was under the impression that general US law is that the judge doesn’t care how the defendant got in front of them, that any such concerns are a completely separate matter from whatever criminal charges the defendant is facing.

    Soronel Haetir (86a46e)

  4. With international extradition you’re stuck with what you charged before extradition. I can’t immediately remember if it is the same between states.

    Patterico (fcc13e)

  5. I thought in the international case that was generally due to agreement not to seek execution rather than a more general limitation.

    Soronel Haetir (86a46e)

  6. The thing here is the malice. He made this call maliciously with the knowledge that there was some chance of injury or death. And since the false report was charged as a felony, this is a death resulting from a felony, committed with malice aforethought. I think charging it as murder is reasonable, and let a jury sort it out.

    But take this a bit further.

    Let’s say that the guy he swatted wasn’t an innocent but was a fugitive who decided to spray the cops with his illegal machine gun, killing an officer before he himself was killed.

    In that scenario, I am willing to bet that the OFFICER’S death would be charges as felony murder. And that’s one step removed from the actual event.

    Kevin M (752a26)

  7. I posted something over at RedState that went like this:

    The argument in favor of involuntary manslaughter is that he had no expectation that anyone would get hurt (otherwise “murder” would be the obvious charge, given the malice).

    Let’s say I’m pissed at someone, who is down at the end of the block, maybe 800 feet away. I shoot at them with a wildly inaccurate Saturday Night Special. I plug them right between the eyes and they die. Am I going to bet away with this as “involuntary manslaughter”? If not, why is this different than the swatting.

    Kevin M (752a26)

  8. Patterico @ 4. With international extradition you’re stuck with what you charged before extradition. I can’t immediately remember if it is the same between states.

    No, it’s not. Not with states which have adopted the Uniform Criminal Extradition Act, which both California and Kansas have. It explicitly provides:

    After a person has been brought back to this State by extradition proceedings, he may be tried in this State for other crimes which he may be charged with having committed in this State as well as for the crime or crimes specified in the requisition for his extradition.

    That would be in California Penal Code Section 1556 (?), and Kansas Code of Criminal Procedure 22-2728. We have the same thing in Illinois.

    nk (dbc370)

  9. What might have been of concern is Section 6 of the UCEA, discretionary extradition not mandated by Article IV:

    22-2706. Persons not present in the demanding state at time of commission of crime. The governor of this state may also surrender, on demand of the executive authority of any other state, any person in this state charged in such other state in the manner provided in section 22-2703 with committing an act in this state, or in a third state, intentionally resulting in a crime in the state whose executive authority is making the demand, and the provisions of this act not otherwise inconsistent, shall apply to such cases, even though the accused was not in that state at the time of the commission of the crime, and has not fled therefrom. https://law.justia.com/codes/kansas/2011/Chapter22/Article27/22-2706.html

    See also, California Penal Code Section 1549.1.

    If Section 6 is construed to be limited to intentional crimes, he might not have been extraditable solely for involuntary manslaughter.

    nk (dbc370)

  10. Don’t quote me on the California section numbers. It has been obvious to me for a long time that California’s statutes are compiled by the same people who run the state lottery; and in the same way they pick winning numbers — by drawing numbered ping pong balls at random.

    nk (dbc370)

  11. Hurrah!

    Dave (445e97)

  12. Planet? It’s dimensional

    Letterman then asked Obama what he considers the more dangerous threat to a democracy, the president demeaning the press or a foreign power sabotaging the voting process. Both options are clearly jabs at President Trump and Obama answered without mentioning the current president’s name.

    “One of the biggest challenges we have to our democracy is the degree to which we don’t share a common baseline of facts,” Obama said. “If you watch Fox News, you are living on a different planet than you are if you are listening to NPR.”

    Admiral Ben Bunsen Burner (e96021)

  13. Barriss, clearly intended death, so I would charge him with
    first degree murder,

    narciso (d1f714)

  14. Sorry, groggy. Wrong thread.

    Admiral Ben Bunsen Burner (e96021)

  15. Some might say depraved indifference but burriss chose the target, it was only a matter of which cop would be provoked.

    narciso (d1f714)

  16. The officer who shot Andy Finch has some ‘plainin to do. Vague stores of Andy moving his hands toward his waste and toward cops is awefully thin justification for killing an innocent and unarmed man on his mother’s front porch.

    ropelight (623ec0)

  17. Well except how could the officer have known, he went by what he wasctild

    narciso (d1f714)

  18. I’m sorry, but I’m a law and order sort of guy but a couple weeks ago we saw a cop shoot a guy five times in a hall of a motel because “he reached for his waste”. Now a cop shoots a guy again because he made a move for his waste. What is it with these cops that they start shooting before they see something in a guy’s hand? Even just a cell phone but something. Moving can’t be a reason to shoot.

    Rev.Hoagie (6bbda7)

  19. If the officer didn’t actually see a gun, or something so similar in appearance to a gun (not a cell phone) that a reasonable person would assume it to be a gun, then the officer had no justification for xischarging his weapon – rifle or pistol.

    ropelight (623ec0)

  20. R.I.P. Keith Jackson, THE voice of college football on television

    Icy (a1956f)

  21. So how would you handle it, you only have what you are told, presumably the parent is dead so you can’t double check.

    narciso (d1f714)

  22. Yeah, Hoagie, since when does a man hitching up his trousers become such an imminent danger to public safety that police are authorized to gun him down?

    ropelight (623ec0)


  23. One of the biggest challenges we have to our democracy is the degree to which we don’t share a common baseline of facts,” Obama said.


    Obummer’s right on that one. If a person watches FOX News he knows a male is not a female regardless of how he “identifies” himself. If you listen to NPR you’d think the guy actually became a full blown woman and you better treat “her” with the respect “she’s” due. IOW, if you listen to NPR you are ant-science, anti-fact and easily lied to. Similarly, if you watch FOX News you get a smattering of leftists thrown in for debates sake. The last time a conservative was on NPR was when they were still predicting a Ice Age by 1980.

    Rev.Hoagie (6bbda7)

  24. #22, narciso, I’d draw a bead on the man and hold fire till ordered to shoot by the incident commander, or till I saw a gun pointed at me or other officer.

    ropelight (623ec0)

  25. The issue with international extradition is that general principle that a citizen will not be extradicted out of his own country unless the crime he is sought for would be a crime in his own country. That is why its not allowable under treaties for a person to be extradicted on one charge, but then prosecuted for a different crime once they arrive. If the second crime would not be a criminal act in their home country, then it would not have formed the basis for the extradition.

    That is not an issue between US states.

    shipwreckedcrew (56b591)

  26. A Seattle federal judge has just upheld a $15 Million judgment for the police killing of an unarmed black man.

    ropelight (623ec0)

  27. Glad the guy is getting some real charges. Still think he’s guilty of 1st degree murder.

    NJRob (b00189)

  28. Was it judge robart again, I’m conditioned to be skeptical, ie fergysin, Baltimore.

    narciso (d1f714)

  29. People can keep guns in their waistbands. Police are rightfully concerned when they see someone reach for their waists during a detention or stop.

    DRJ (15874d)


  30. 30.People can keep guns in their waistbands. Police are rightfully concerned when they see someone reach for their waists during a detention or stop.


    I didn’t say cops shouldn’t be “concerned”, DRJ. I said they shouldn’t start blasting away until they actually see a phukin weapon or at the very least something in his hand. Big difference. Especially if your son gets five rounds to the chest for pulling up his pants.

    Rev.Hoagie (6bbda7)

  31. Cops are rightly concerned but their career choice indicates they wish to assist society remain safe.

    If their self-safety is the highest priority maybe flipping burgers is a better choice.

    The Thin blue line is not just for cops.

    Admiral Ben Bunsen Burner (e96021)


  32. If their self-safety is the highest priority maybe flipping burgers is a better choice.


    Wow. Somewhere in hell Stalin, Hitler and Mao are getting a cold break. I actually agree with comrade Ben!.

    Rev.Hoagie (6bbda7)

  33. Beauty school, with a side job as “exotic dancers” on “ladies only” nights so they could still get some use out of their uniforms and maybe their nightsticks, the murderous sissy-boys.

    nk (dbc370)

  34. Expecting the officer to wait until he sees a gun may well be too late.

    DRJ (15874d)

  35. Keith Jackson – RIP

    harkin (8256c3)

  36. It’s still a minority of Fallujah vets with chronic PTSD but they do influence the good cops.

    Admiral Ben Bunsen Burner (e96021)

  37. Another approach would be to increase training, including helping police learn to give clear instructions during detentions, traffic stops, etc.

    DRJ (15874d)

  38. Talking with WFPK’s Kyle Meredith, Moby cited “active and former CIA agents” who were “truly concerned” about Trump’s collusion with Russia. “They were like, ‘This is the Manchurian Candidate, like [Putin] has a Russian agent as the President of the United States,’” he said. “So they passed on some information to me and they said, like, ‘Look, you have more of a social media following than any of us do, can you please post some of these things just in a way that … sort of put it out there.’”

    He added, “It’s really disturbing and it’s going to get quite a lot darker. Like the depths of the Trump family in business and their involvement with organized crime, sponsored terrorism, Russian oligarchs, it’s really dark. I guess we should all, like, fasten our seat belts and hold on.”

    https://pitchfork.com/news/moby-says-cia-agents-asked-him-to-spread-the-word-about-trump-and-russia/

    Admiral Ben Bunsen Burner (e96021)

  39. It hasn’t gotten this bad…yet

    https://youtu.be/5rXPrfnU3G0

    Admiral Ben Bunsen Burner (e96021)

  40. Anyway, good luck with the involuntary manslaughter charge. Here are the Kansas Pattern Jury Instruction, http://www.kansasjudicialcouncil.org/publications/Archived%20publications/PIK%20Crim/PIK%20Crim%203d%201993.pdf You want 56.06 at page 189. I’ll read a little of it for you.

    The defendant is charged with the crime of involuntary manslaughter. The defendant pleads not guilty.

    To establish this charge, each of the following claims must be proved:
    1. That the defendant unintentionally killed Andrew Finch;
    2.

    nk (dbc370)

  41. The bold is in the original.

    nk (dbc370)

  42. What good are NDAs?

    In late October 2016, Drake became the 14th woman to accuse then-candidate Trump of sexual misconduct. At a public press conference, Drake, flanked by her attorney Gloria Allred, claimed that after she met Trump in July 2006 at Nevada’s American Century Celebrity Golf Championship, where she was working a promotional booth on behalf of the adult film company Wicked Pictures, he made a pass at her. Trump’s wife, Melania, had recently given birth to their son Barron at the time.

    https://www.thedailybeast.com/trump-accuser-jessica-drake-has-an-nda-preventing-her-from-talking-about-donald-trump

    Admiral Ben Bunsen Burner (e96021)

  43. Training made a difference in this case. Unfortunately it didn’t end well for anyone.

    DRJ (15874d)

  44. I assume some of the NDA parties feel Trump can’t afford to sue them, or maybe they can get reimbursed if he does. It might also be very difficult for Trump to prove damages to his reputation at this point.

    DRJ (15874d)

  45. Ot Hawaii swatted by the Norms this mirning.

    urbanleftbehind (1d0126)

  46. My sister in Hawaii just received a text that said take shelter immediately. Turns out it was a mistake.
    Shipwreckedcrew did you receive the same?

    mg (8cbc69)

  47. After the sh!thole fiasco, anything that will get the jerkoff out of the White House. He’s a worthless buffoon, just stumbling around with his lickspittles struggling to prop him up.

    nk (dbc370)

  48. If the caller is charged with murder, isn’t that a case of the State of Kansas acknowledging that it’s reasonable to assume that a police officer will panic and shoot an unarmed man who is NOT acting in a threatening manner?

    I would think that a big part of the caller’s defense will be that the Wichita police did not follow their own policies on deadly force. I think swatting is a serious crime, but I also worry about piss poor decisions by the police being transferred over to increased charges for the swatter.

    Russ from Winterset (055413)

  49. @47. CNN is all over this– it’s a false alarm message– they were testing the system and they screwed up.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  50. @46. Missile attack; Fake News. It’s going around these days,

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  51. Letting the other guy draw/shoot first is appealing because then the officer can show he acted in self-defense, but police are also required to run toward danger. To me, the rules aren’t and shouldn’t be the same. The answer is training.

    DRJ (15874d)

  52. Russ,

    I think it’s a recognition that false alarms can lead to unexpected and potentially dangerous results.

    DRJ (15874d)

  53. Trump had it done to stop the momentum of the sh!thole comment and the $130,000 hooker story.

    nk (dbc370)

  54. As Tom the Cat once said…
    http://youtu.be/q5CAG9WNapE

    urbanleftbehind (1d0126)

  55. Since the victim in Wichita was unarmed, it’s hardly a case of “waiting for him to shoot first”. Now if you’re talking about the West Virginia case, that might be a factor.

    Russ from Winterset (055413)

  56. So, how is everyone’s day going?

    Not much happening where I live.

    “Inbound ballistic missle heading for Hawaii. THIS IS NOT A DRILL”.

    8:07 am on my iPhone.

    Other than that, kids are enjoying their pancakes.

    shipwreckedcrew (56b591)

  57. DRJ, that door swings both ways. Officers are aware of the significant amount of false alarms, so they cannot treat every case as if it is a confirmed threat. They have to be prepared for the threat, but they also have to assess the situation and act appropriately.

    This case, and that Arizona hotel hallway indicate that a significant number of officers have a “take off and nuke it from orbit” attitude.

    Russ from Winterset (055413)

  58. Reports are that it was a state emergency defense drill, but someone “pushed the wrong button” — hence the “This is not a drill” part.

    shipwreckedcrew (56b591)

  59. @57. Heard of nuking your bacon in a microwave but that’s a helluva way to get it frying, eh swc.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  60. What Would be the charge for an perp in a drive by where previous animus existed between the shooter and the intended, but a non-associate innocent walking near the intended was killed

    urbanleftbehind (1d0126)

  61. So Hawaii’s EMA just swatted Hawaii.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  62. Did they ever cover a missile crisis scenario in either iteration of Hawaii 5-0?

    urbanleftbehind (1d0126)

  63. Friend who is a bit paranoid was dubious about it being a mistake.

    I told him that if he was still concerned, he should probably go up on his roof with a rifle, and look for North Korean landing craft approaching the beach.

    shipwreckedcrew (56b591)

  64. What Would be the charge for an perp in a drive by where previous animus existed between the shooter and the intended, but a non-associate innocent walking near the intended was killed

    First degree murder. Transferred intent.

    nk (dbc370)

  65. The miscreant is getting off easy.

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  66. The defendant is charged with the crime of involuntary manslaughter. The defendant pleads not guilty.

    To establish this charge, each of the following claims must be proved:
    1. That the defendant unintentionally killed Andrew Finch;

    Did Tyler Rai Barris kill Andrew Finch?

    nk (dbc370)

  67. In the driveby hypothetical, the shooter pulled the trigger himself. So their actions directly caused the death of the bystander. In the Wichita case, doesn’t the swatter have a reasonable expectation that the responding officers will behave professionally?

    Russ from Winterset (055413)

  68. @63. The movies took a crack at it…

    “Make Honolulu glow…” – William Strannix [Tommy Lee Jones] ‘Under Siege’ 1992

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  69. I have no idea what the ratio of hoaxes and misconstrued situations are in relation to legitimate threats, but I would assume that false alarms greatly outnumber legit threats. Police officers know this better than anyone, so they cannot treat every call as legit. They are trained to assess threats, so why not hold them accountable?

    If the department claims that the actions of the shooter were appropriate, why are the vast majority of the responding officers not being disciplined for failure to open fire?

    Russ from Winterset (055413)

  70. Letting the other guy draw/shoot first is appealing because then the officer can show he acted in self-defense, but police are also required to run toward danger. To me, the rules aren’t and shouldn’t be the same. The answer is training.
    DRJ (15874d) — 1/13/2018 @ 10:53 am

    Not really:
    http://www.nytimes.com/2005/06/28/politics/justices-rule-police-do-not-have-a-constitutional-duty-to-protect.html

    The Supreme Court ruled on Monday that the police did not have a constitutional duty to protect a person from harm, even a woman who had obtained a court-issued protective order against a violent husband making an arrest mandatory for a violation.

    Infact, they can take quite some time to engage the shooter (not arguing police tactics in this case–Just that police are not dumb):
    https://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/orlando-nightclub-massacre/orlando-nightclub-shooting-emergency-services-respond-reports-gunman-n590446

    The shooter, identified by several law enforcement sources as Omar Mateen, 29, was killed in a shootout with law enforcement after a three-hour siege.

    The massacre — the worst mass shooting in the history of the United States — began when the gunman stormed the Pulse Nightclub about 2 a.m. ET with a handgun and a Sig Sauer MCX, an AR-15-style rifle, officials said.

    Almost 1/2 an hour from call to shooting… Nobody could call the residence first?
    http://www.kansas.com/news/local/crime/article192244734.html

    At 6:18 p.m., an officer working at City Hall received a call from an unknown man who said there was a disturbance with his father. When dispatchers spoke with the caller, he said he got into an argument with his mother and shot his father.

    “They can’t go in and treat somebody until the house is cleared and made safe,” he said. “An individual was shot at 6:47 and was at the hospital in about 17 minutes.”

    Running towards danger does not justify a wanton disregard of life–Or that these people have to respond or have only 10 seconds to “resolve” a situation.

    BfC (5517e8)

  71. Accidental and tragic as it is, the whole incident oozes poor judgement but seems like it’s the police officer who shot the victim who is directly responsible for the death– not an idiot prankster 1500 miles away. Sucks, but that’s the job the cop signed up for. Would vote to acquit if on a jury.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  72. If the department claims that the actions of the shooter were appropriate, why are the vast majority of the responding officers not being disciplined for failure to open fire?

    No, they have not let the cop off the hook yet. They are still investigating him. It will take months before there’s a decision.

    nk (dbc370)

  73. Swatting is a big issue here, Russ. I’m not sure that’s true for law enforcement until this case.

    DRJ (15874d)

  74. With an hour to decompress — here’s what sucks.

    Four kids at home and one off at soccer practice.

    And the stunning realization there’s not a f’ing thing you can really do about it.

    The 16 year old calls and says “What should I do?”

    What do you tell him?

    shipwreckedcrew (56b591)

  75. Colonel Haiku (2601c0) — 1/13/2018 @ 11:11 am

    Colonel! Welcome back, brother.

    felipe (023cc9)

  76. shipwreckedcrew (56b591) — 1/13/2018 @ 11:40 am

    That’s a tough situation for any father.

    felipe (023cc9)


  77. 48.After the sh!thole fiasco, anything that will get the jerkoff out of the White House. He’s a worthless buffoon, just stumbling around with his lickspittles struggling to prop him up.
    nk (dbc370) — 1/13/2018 @ 10:41 am


    That’s right, nk! And he can take his Supreme Court picks, his federal judgeships, his tax breaks, his deregulation, his growing economy, his repatriation of foreign capital, his refusal to bow to the UN, N. Korea or the climate loonies along wiff him. Who needs that if we have to listen to words like “sh!tholes”. After all, we’re prim and proper walking around in “pussy hats” dressed like vaginas. Never in the history of America has a president or any major politician ever spoken so badly. It’s a big phukin’ deal!

    Please stop whining like a leftist every time Trump opens his mouth. It’s petty.

    Rev.Hoagie (6bbda7)

  78. I like President Trump he’s cheeky and fun!

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  79. The defendant is charged with the crime of involuntary manslaughter. The defendant pleads not guilty.

    To establish this charge, each of the following claims must be proved:
    1. That the defendant unintentionally killed Andrew Finch;

    Did Tyler Rai Barris kill Andrew Finch?

    Yes.

    I set a landmine.

    nk and felipe are walking together across the field. nk steps on the landmine, which explodes, severely injuring nk and killing felipe. (Sorry, felipe. You didn’t do anything wrong to be included in this. Yours just happened to be the last comment I saw before I started typing this.)

    Who killed felipe? nk, or me?

    It’s not a precise analogy, but if you think it’s necessary for the act that most proximately caused the death to have been physically performed by the defendant (or even his confederate), you’re quite wrong. And that is all the analogy is meant to illustrate.

    Patterico (115b1f)

  80. In my upcoming post on Barriss’s interview with a local TV reporter, I cite the California statute on second degree murder that would apply here if the case were tried in California. Whether Kansas has an analogue, I don’t know — and I know better than to try to opine based on Web research.

    Patterico (115b1f)

  81. None of that is Trump. It’s the people around him. All he’s good for is playing golf and jerking off and I doubt that he can find his dick half the time.

    nk (dbc370)

  82. Patterico (115b1f) — 1/13/2018 @ 11:59 am

    Lol. Not a problem. I like your take on things. Feel free to use my name, anytime, in the furtherance of truth.

    felipe (023cc9)

  83. All he’s good for is playing golf and jerking off and I doubt that he can find his dick half the time.

    this is hyperbole in real life President Trump’s a results-oriented leader what’s compiling a very impressive record of conservative governance

    people can see in real time how economically beneficial his approach has been (especially compared to the stagnant economy and violent prosperity-rape of the food stamp years)

    hooray for President Trump!

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  84. Scenario 1: I set a Rube Goldberg contraption that is designed to fire a rifle into a large crowd when someone sits in a particular chair. Someone sits in the chair, the rifle goes off, and someone is killed. Who killed the victim? Me, or the person who sat in the chair? I say I am guilty of murder here.

    Scenario 2: it’s not a rifle. It’s a revolver, and I put one bullet in the gun and spin the cylinder, Russian roulette style. Now, sitting in the chair is not certain to fire the gun. Still murder? I say yes.

    Scenario 3: it’s a magic revolver that, instead of having a five or six round capacity, has a 100-round capacity. I put one, or two, or five bullets in.

    See, these are all judgment calls. To me, the issues are: 1) is the act of making the call dangerous to human life, and was the SWATter aware of that danger? (Obviously yes.) and 2) is the officer’s firing of the gun a sufficient intervening factor that we cannot say Burris’s call was a substantial cause of the death? (Less clear, but I would strenuously argue that it is not.)

    Patterico (115b1f)

  85. 76… hey, felipe… thx! I used the week to address more important things, but often checked back to read the comments. I definitely got a better read on who comes across as stable, sober and interesting and who comes across as arrogant, needy, obsessive/compulsive, braggadocious, honest, and in need of getting a Life.

    So… all in all, time well spent!

    Colonel Haiku (d58e4f)

  86. It’s less than a not-precise analogy because there’s a very big body of law on setting traps –bear traps, cross-bow traps, shotgun traps, car bombs, letter bombs, package bombs, and booby traps which a land mine would be. The killer is still wielding the instrumentality of the death, but with a time delay.

    nk (dbc370)

  87. how do we know you’re the real Colonel and not a replacement Colonel what will subtly insert nevertrump memes into the discussion here

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  88. false alarm of nuclear attack happened many years ago in floriduh. radio station in pre taped message said we were striking back!

    conelrad (96976e)

  89. nk (dbc370) — 1/13/2018 @ 12:13 pm

    “I can blow you away with one phone call.”

    Sure, it’s a movie trope. Is there mob case law on this?

    felipe (023cc9)

  90. US Military training is actually less likely to get “subjects of interest” shot (and, it turned out, the gun was unloaded):
    http://www.newsweek.com/stephen-mader-police-shooting-fired-lawsuit-aclu-west-virginia-weirton-ronald-606435

    About a year ago, in Weirton, West Virginia—a small city about 35 miles from Pittsburgh—a woman called 911 to report that a man was threatening to kill himself. It was May 6, and a white police officer named Stephen Mader was the first to respond. When he arrived, he found the man, Ronald Williams, who is black, was upset and despondent, with his hands behind his back.

    Mader ordered Williams to show him his hands. When he complied, Mader saw he held a silver handgun. The officer drew his own weapon and ordered Williams to drop the gun. “I can’t do that,” Williams said. “Just shoot me.”

    Mader, who served as a U.S. Marine in Afghanistan, felt the man wasn’t dangerous or aggressive; instead he feared Williams was trying to commit “suicide by cop.”

    O’Brien says the Mader case is important because he was punished for complying with the requirements of the Constitution’s Fourth Amendment, which protects citizens against unreasonable use of force. Plus, firing a cop for showing restraint, he adds, pushes officers towards more shootings. “It says to a police officer, If you can use force, you must use it. It says that when you’re in doubt, you must shoot to kill or you’ll be fired.”

    The city of Weirton has defended its decision to terminate Mader, saying he wasn’t fired over his handling of the Williams incident but because of two prior events, according to the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette. One occurred when a woman complained that Mader swore at her as he arrested her husband on a disorderly conduct charge, and the second was for not reporting the death of an elderly woman as suspicious, the newspaper reported. (The two officers who responded on May 6, including the one who shot Williams, also failed to report the death as suspicious.)

    BfC (5517e8)

  91. It’s less than a not-precise analogy because there’s a very big body of law on setting traps –bear traps, cross-bow traps, shotgun traps, car bombs, letter bombs, package bombs, and booby traps which a land mine would be. The killer is still wielding the instrumentality of the death, but with a time delay.

    Is it your contention that the killer must “wield the instrumentality of death”? OK. I pay someone to set the land mine in nk’s back yard. I never touch the land mine.

    Scenario 4: I hack North Korea’s early warning system to show that the U.S. has launched an all-out nuclear attack on North Korea. Kim Jong Un responds by firing what missiles he can. It turns out that most of them are duds, but he does achieve a direct hit on Wichita, Kansas, killing 70% of the citizens there. An investigation reveals what happened and establishes that I did the hacking. I say I knew there was a chance that Kim would respond the way he did and people would die as a result.

    I don’t get charged with murder there? Just, what? Some kind of hacking computer crime?

    Patterico (115b1f)

  92. Tons. But watch the Gotti movie to get all the flavors — mob case law, conspiracy to commit murder law, solicitation to commit murder law, accomplice to murder law, murder for hire law, Hollywood law, ….

    nk (dbc370)

  93. The basilisk is already worth less than two bits.

    The fact that barriss picked finch with such a blood curdling scenario well that’s intemt.

    narciso (21eb6d)

  94. i wonder if the idiot hawaiians just made war more likely

    this is a wonderful propaganda gift they gave to the nork regime

    so where does this put us

    ladyboy mattis knows our incompetent tranny-trash military isn’t up to the job though of taking on north korea

    but public support for military spending will drop precipitously if people realize like the hawaiians just did how defenseless we are

    what a mess

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  95. OK. I pay someone to set the land mine in nk’s back yard. I never touch the land mine.

    Easy conviction. Solicitation, conspiracy, murder for hire. Well established.

    The North Korea example, you’ve got me on that. Because that’s pretty close to what happened here. Nuremberg Law, the one they hanged von Ribbentrop for? Conspiracy to wage war?

    nk (dbc370)

  96. Had to be gut wrenching, shipwreckedcrew.

    mg (8cbc69)

  97. Salute, Col.

    mg (8cbc69)

  98. Oh, and my #93 was for felipe.

    nk (dbc370)

  99. There was a scenario like that on ncis some years ago although it was a group sort of like Islamic state ‘ the call’ that did the hack.

    narciso (21eb6d)

  100. “The argument in favor of involuntary manslaughter is that he had no expectation that anyone would get hurt (otherwise “murder” would be the obvious charge, given the malice).”

    So sending armed law enforcement officers under a false pretext that their lives (and the lives of supposed hostages) were in danger to a house to investigate does not contain a reasonable assumption that lives will be at risk?

    Really?

    harkin (8256c3)

  101. 97 — stories starting to percolate out of horrendous events. I’m at home in a part of Oahu that’s pretty quite and tranquil, so my immediate surroundings weren’t disturbed other than the anxiety in the house.

    But hearing that on the freeway cars were suddenly going 100 mph, and lots of people began disregarding rules of the road.

    Hotel hallways filled with thousands of panicked tourists who wanted some directions on what to do — any directions — and got nothing. Damn near anarchy in Waikiki.

    About 12 minutes passed before first semi-definitive message went out that it was a mistake. Almost 40 minutes before official state confirmation on same broadcast system as the warning went out.

    Only good thing to come out of it all was that the state system for pushing out a warning via cell phones worked pretty good.

    shipwreckedcrew (56b591)

  102. Or, somebody calls the cops, tell them that a young (12 year old) (may be a juvenile per caller) man is pointing a (apparently realistic toy, or a pellet gun?) pistol (appears to be a toy and is reported as toy to dispatcher) at people in the park. Dispatcher says nothing about being a toy, dispatches cops.

    Senior cop driving car pulls up to within a few feet of they guy and the Jr. Cop opens car door and shoots point blank. Killing the young man.

    Original caller caused killing by calling police on unarmed kid? Dispatcher caused killing by not fully reporting situation? The senior cop for pulling to within feet of somebody he believes is wielding the (toy) weapon? Cop in training shoots boy within 2 seconds of arrival on scene when partner puts passenger door almost against suspect. No medical care until FBI agent arrives on scene.

    As of December 2014, Officer Timothy Loehmann (the person who shot the kids) was the only one recommended for termination (and left the force).

    http://abcnews.go.com/US/cleveland-cops-recklessly-shot-boy-12-toy-gun/story?id=27402837
    https://www.nytimes.com/2015/12/29/us/tamir-rice-police-shootiing-cleveland.html

    The cop who did the shooting was placed in a very serious situation by the cop car driver & dispatcher not relating all known information from caller–And, in my humble opinion, should not have been fired/terminated.

    BfC (5517e8)

  103. Fear is the objective and loud noises panic the cattle.

    Controlling the masses since 9/11

    Admiral Ben Bunsen Burner (e96021)

  104. Hey, mg!

    No more anti-religion bigotry, feets.

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  105. With an hour to decompress — here’s what sucks.

    Four kids at home and one off at soccer practice.

    And the stunning realization there’s not a f’ing thing you can really do about it.

    The 16 year old calls and says “What should I do?”

    What do you tell him?

    That is crazy. Glad it turned out to be a false alarm and that nobody in government overreacted.

    Patterico (115b1f)

  106. If anyone is harmed/killed by the false ballistic missile warning in Hawaii, should the “button pusher” be tried on felony / homicide / murder charges (as appropriate)?

    Should the people that took 20-40 minutes to begin to roll back announcement be charged with felonies?

    BfC (5517e8)

  107. Drunk, stupid, playing on-line games while placing dollar bets, and causing the death of innocent people is no way to live your life.

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  108. BfC 91/93 – Yup, it’s painfully obvious that they are trained poorly and this will continue to happen, unfortunately. The quotes from the retired NYC police officer in your first link are spot on.

    Lenny (5ea732)

  109. That is crazy. Glad it turned out to be a false alarm and that nobody in government overreacted.
    Patterico (115b1f) — 1/13/2018 @ 12:47 pm

    Is that a joke/sarcasm… I cannot tell anymore. Falsely announcing incoming ballistic missile–Not a drill–on a government conceived/required system seems to be overacting to nothing.

    BfC (5517e8)

  110. Kamanawannanukeyou

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  111. No more anti-religion bigotry, feets.

    ok it’s the real one

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  112. Only the Shadow knows because there is no need to worry..be happy.

    Admiral Ben Bunsen Burner (e96021)

  113. Some where a fat little fvck who feels so ronery is laughing

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  114. obviously trained poorly..

    button pusher..fired

    No wonder Patterico keeps slapping you.

    Admiral Ben Bunsen Burner (e96021)

  115. ugh that dirty tranny bradley manning’s running for senate

    yuck

    that’s just nasty

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  116. And way I turned off all of the “Amber Alerts” and such on my cell phones. They were all useless (400 miles away, days after the event, etc.).

    At least we were safe for a few months when Pres. Clinton lost the launch codes. No launch on false warning(s) for him:

    http://abcnews.go.com/WN/president-bill-clinton-lost-nuclear-codes-office-book/story?id=11930878

    BfC (5517e8)

  117. Is that a joke/sarcasm… I cannot tell anymore. Falsely announcing incoming ballistic missile–Not a drill–on a government conceived/required system seems to be overacting to nothing.

    I mean after that. There are at least two incidents in the past (one in Russia, one in the US) where people responsible for monitoring nuclear systems thought their country was being attacked. Sober people in each case determined the situation was a false alarm, but we were lucky we did not launch a retaliatory strike (or that Russia didn’t in the case where they thought they were being attacked).

    If someone with the authority to launch nukes learned about this warning and reacted too quickly, it could be a calamity.

    Patterico (115b1f)

  118. Hawaii… the Deep Sleep State.

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  119. If Trump launched against N.K. on the Hawaii alert–That would have been OK. Just another government employee doing his job (aka SwATting N.K.).

    BfC (5517e8)

  120. By the way, just being absurd to make a few observations.

    BfC (5517e8)

  121. hillary did it! she pushed the button!

    conelrad (96976e)

  122. Parents put children in storm drain/sewers in Hawaii.

    DRJ (15874d)

  123. What a helpless feeling that would be, as swc’s earlier comment suggested.

    DRJ (15874d)

  124. Welcome, Colonel. You sound no worse for wear.

    Rev.Hoagie (6bbda7)

  125. Kernel…derp, derp fellate.

    Admiral Ben Bunsen Burner (e96021)

  126. 106 — appreciate the thought.

    shipwreckedcrew (56b591)

  127. All he’s good for is playing golf and jerking off and I doubt that he can find his dick half the time.

    this is hyperbole

    This exchange made me laugh.

    Patterico (115b1f)

  128. Has to have been very scary.

    How is it possible that this results from one person pressing “the wrong button”? That’s the extent of the safeguards here?

    Patterico (115b1f)

  129. Why won’t he call it Terrorism?

    Admiral Ben Bunsen Burner (e96021)

  130. More Hawaii reaction stories here.

    DRJ (15874d)

  131. A mistake by one person during a shift change, or so they say. Not reassuring.

    DRJ (15874d)

  132. they made Mr. drudge use his red font that’s how bad they effed up

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  133. Whether or not the cop was justified makes no difference in how to charge the swatter. If you drive drunk and kill someone, how far do you think “He wasn’t wearing his seat belt” is going to get you?

    Kevin M (752a26)

  134. Parents put children in storm drain/sewers in Hawaii.

    oh yeah just throw the kids to bitey clowns

    idiots

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  135. Did Tyler Rai Barris kill Andrew Finch?

    He pulled a trigger that, 1500 miles away, resulted in a death through a predictable sequence. Does the distance matter?

    If I threw a flowerpot out my 47th story window, killing someone, am I less culpable than if it had been the 10th story?

    If the flowerpot had hit a sign and it was the falling sign that killed them, and I now innocent because the sign should have been secured better?

    Meh. He would CERTAINLY be alive if Barris had not picked up the phone, so picking up the phone — with malice aforethought — is the moving force in the death.

    Kevin M (752a26)

  136. 33

    Reassuring but someone is probing our infrastructure weakness and an idiot is at the Helm

    Admiral Ben Bunsen Burner (e96021)

  137. You are a flowerpot kevin.

    Admiral Ben Bunsen Burner (e96021)

  138. then why isn’t the guy guilty what gave tyler the wrong phone number knowing full well tyler was gonna swat that number?

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  139. then why isn’t the guy guilty what gave tyler the wrong phone number knowing full well tyler was gonna swat that number?

    I think there could be culpability there too.

    Patterico (115b1f)

  140. If anyone is harmed/killed by the false ballistic missile warning in Hawaii, should the “button pusher” be tried on felony / homicide / murder charges (as appropriate)?

    No malice involved. That’s a BIG difference. The state might be liable for wrongful death, and doofus might get fired, but the most you would ever charge would be some misdemeanor.

    Kevin M (752a26)

  141. You are a flowerpot kevin.

    Actually I’m a little teapot.

    Kevin M (752a26)

  142. Looking forward to snorkeling with the turtles and laying on the beaches of Hawaii.
    Oh ya.
    No jellyfish if you please.

    mg (8cbc69)

  143. Looking forward to snorkeling with the turtles teh missiles and laying on the beaches of Hawaii.
    Oh ya.

    FIFY, mg…

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  144. Not saying that the cop’s incompetence negates the actions of the swatter. I’m an engineer by training, so I have no problem assigning blame. What I am talking about is the defense strategy. Lawyers and the legal system, never undereatimayr their ability to screw up a one car parade. Plus, defense attorneys have to zealously represent, they can’t just say “yeah, he did it. Fry him.”

    Plus, I would like to see the officer charged for shooting an unarmed man who was not making threatening gestures.

    Russ from Winterset (055413)

  145. If anyone is harmed/killed by the false ballistic missile warning in Hawaii, should the “button pusher” be tried on felony / homicide / murder charges (as appropriate)?”

    Only if he/she/xe/per/ver/zen/zi/tu/tau did it willfully knowing it was not true.

    harkin (8256c3)

  146. Looking forward to snorkeling with the turtles teh missiles and laying on the beaches of Hawaii.
    Oh ya.”

    Last time I was there (N shore Kauai) was sea turtle palooza.

    The snorkel-tour catamaran we took anchored a few miles off shore and sent out 4 members of the crew on longboards to form a perimeter and sent one guy up the mast.

    I swam up to one of them and said “dont want anyone to stray too far eh?”

    He replied: “we saw a 14’ tiger shark here yesterday”

    harkin (8256c3)

  147. If someone with the authority to launch nukes learned about this warning and reacted too quickly, it could be a calamity.

    By far the bigger worry are accidents:

    en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_military_nuclear_accidents

    An we’ve been living with them since “Day One.”

    DCSCA (797bc0)


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