Patterico's Pontifications

1/5/2018

Terrorizing Ajit Pai, Net Neutrality, the Resistance, and SWATting

Filed under: General — Patterico @ 10:30 pm

The anti-Trump “Resistance” has aspects that are criminal and out of control, and the latest example is their treatment of FCC Chairman Ajit Pai. Noah Rothman had an excellent piece in Commentary Magazine today titled The Torment of Ajit Pai, about the disgusting treatment that Pai has received at the hands of the “Resistance.” So what is Pai’s crime? Deciding that the federal government might not be the best entity to put in charge of the new printing press known as the Internet. But because we call this “net neutrality,” a bunch of self-righteous millenials with a Trump-level understanding of policy have taken it upon themselves to terrorize the man and his family:

The so-called “Resistance” latched onto the net-neutrality issue early in the Trump presidency and went about expressing their opposition to the repeal of this regulation in the most contemptible fashion imaginable. HBO host John Oliver was among the first figures of mainstream cultural relevance to organize a campaign against this regulation, which he dubbed “Go FCC Yourself.” He encouraged his followers to bombard the FCC’s website with comments supporting the regulation, and that is precisely what they did. Those comments were peppered with claims that Pai was a pedophile, a “dirty, sneaky Indian” who should self-deport, and reminders that anonymous online hordes maintain the “power to murder Ajit Pai and his family.” Oliver was eventually compelled to release a video urging his followers to dial back the racism and death threats.

This episode would prove to be just the beginning of Pai’s ordeal. By May of last year, Pai’s tormentors began a campaign to ensure that the FCC chairman could enjoy no peace—not even in his own home. “Resistance” groups began distributing fliers and door hangers around Pai’s Arlington, Virginia neighborhood, featuring a black-and-white photo of Pai with his vital stats (height, weight, age, and professional background) and accusing him of selling the Internet out to corporations. “Have you seen this man?” the fliers read.

These demonstrators didn’t stop there. They began organizing “vigils” in Pai’s driveway—a tactic that net neutrality activists deployed in 2014 against then-FCC chairman Tom Wheeler. They “come up to our front windows and take photographs of the inside of the house,” Pai told the Wall Street Journal. “My kids are 5 and 3. It’s not pleasant.”

“Is this really the world you want Annabelle and Alexander to inherit,” read a hand-made sign affixed to a lamppost outside Pai’s residence in November, making a point to emphasize the names of Pai’s two children. “They will come to know the truth: Dad murdered democracy in cold blood,” read another. The Pai family’s doorbell reportedly rang every half hour, according to National Journal’s Brendan Bordelon, with pizza deliveries that they had not ordered. “It was a little nerve-racking, especially for my wife who’s not involved in this space,” Pai told Fox News Channel. “Families,” he continued, “should remain out of it and stop harassing us at our homes.”

But it didn’t stop, and the threats to Pai’s safety have only become more credible. In December, ahead of the commission’s vote to formally nix the controversial 2015 regulation, a specific bomb threat forced the FCC to halt proceedings and clear the building. This week, Pai was forced to cancel a scheduled appearance at the Consumer Electronics Show after receiving credible death threats.

By the way, the fellow who left the FCC bomb threat was apparently Tyler Barriss, the same guy who evidently SWATted Andrew Finch in Kansas, leading to his death. Shortly before the bomb threat, Barriss tweeted on his @SWauTistic Twitter account: “Gonna evacuate the net neutrality meeting guys don’t be upset.” Moments later, the meeting was evacuated. I guess that wasn’t enough to get the FBI’s rear in gear. Maybe they could have saved Andrew Finch’s life. Instead, he boasted:

“l swatted FCC and MLG Dallas l’m not busted yet 😜” he tweeted. “if you can’t pull off a swat without getting busted you’re not a leet hacking God its that simple”

He’s now being extradited to Kansas, to be charged with . . . murder? Nope, “making a false alarm.” I think that’s absurd, and that it’s murder, but hey. What do I know?

Barriss’s actions are an extreme example, and they almost certainly motivated more by his psychopathic joy in disrupting people’s lives than by any political motive. But the millenials described in Rothman’s piece no doubt applauded Barriss’s actions. They couldn’t begin to give you a factually accurate explanation of why they think net neutrality is bad — but they love to disrupt the life of a guy they have determined is evil.

In this sense they are like the most enthusiastic Trumpers, who elevate the virtue of “hitting back” over any sense of morality, ethics, restraint, or proportion. I’m not talking about reluctant Trump voters, or people who don’t like him but think his administration has accomplished some good things. I’m talking about the Cernoviches and Posobiecs of the world: people who believe in outrageous behavior because they are imitating the excesses of the left.

I’m sorry to harsh your mellow in a post that you were enjoying about how the left is evil. But if you support these kind of tactics, as long as they are used in support of your preferred policy, you’re no better than the people Rothman describes.

Let’s see if we can get the “normals” together from all walks of life to oppose this kind of insanity, no matter the politics of the people who engage in it.

[Cross-posted at RedState and The Jury Talks Back.]

377 Responses to “Terrorizing Ajit Pai, Net Neutrality, the Resistance, and SWATting”

  1. Ding.

    Patterico (115b1f)

  2. Just isolated incident it’s not the 2nd highest Democrat, Keith Ellison is in favor of that, oh snap….

    narciso (21eb6d)

  3. Patterico, I’m right there with you on this one. Naive cynicism is the bane of our times. That it has now become militant ought to be a wake up call. If duly elected (or appointed) officials cannot walk the streets in peace something is very wrong.

    Mayor Daley may have had the right idea.

    Kevin M (752a26)

  4. He’s now being extradited to Kansas, to be charged with . . . murder? Nope, “making a false alarm.”

    And of course he’s impervious to a wrongful death suit. What an utter failure. I am reminded of a scene in The Godfather where the mortician seeks justice after the state fails him.

    Kevin M (752a26)

  5. OT but not too far — very good interview by Hugh Hewitt of Okl. Sen. Jim Lankford.

    Some stuff that goes on in the Senate out of plain sight.

    Dems in the Senate have demanded 30 hours of debate on every confirmation of an admin. appointee or Judge. Lankford pointed out that with more than 1000 appointees it would take nearly 11 years for a Pres. to get them all confirmed.

    Because the Senate only does on thing at a time, whenever the 30 hour clock is running on debate over a particular nominee, the Senate cannot conduct debate on any other measure. So when they are debating legislation on the floor, nothing can be done on any nominees.

    At the end of Dec., the Dems halted year-end promotions of 100 military officers which are normally pro forma votes.

    12 months into the Admin., and the Dems are stalling a vote on the nominee for Ambassador to Germany.

    shipwreckedcrew (56b591)

  6. He’s now being extradited to Kansas, to be charged with . . . murder? Nope, “making a false alarm.” I think that’s absurd, and that it’s murder, but hey. What do I know?

    I agree with you 100%. Where I suspect we are not in agreement is that I think it is also absurd that the cop who fired the shot has not been arrested for anything. He also should be charged with some level of homicide, but instead, he will probably walk and keep his job on top of it.

    And, when that happens, I’m guessing we will see a column from you about how that is right and good.

    Anon Y. Mous (6cc438)

  7. For the life of me, I do not understand the hysteria over “net neutrality”.

    As a form of almost-certainly unnecessary government regulation, I am opposed to it on principle.

    But as a practical matter, everything I’ve read tells me it’s simply irrelevant. The internet did not change in any noticeable way when the rules were adopted in 2015, and it is not going to change in any noticeable way when they are lifted, either.

    Either way, of all the hills to die on, this looks like one of the most pointless.

    Dave (9aedfd)

  8. > 12 months into the Admin., and the Dems are stalling a vote on the nominee for Ambassador to Germany.

    By the same logic that was used to stall the vote on Garland, well, the American people should get to decide this via the next Congressional election.

    Honestly, I think this *sucks*. The system cannot function with this level of obstruction. The Democrats in the Senate are *choosing* to actively contribute to the dysfunction of the government by not even trying to confirm people.

    But at the same time, I don’t know a single left-of-center person who isn’t *furious* about the refusal to *even hold hearings* on Garland. The *base* is even angrier.

    McConnell’s actions on Garland got ya’ll a Justice you like, but it absolutely poisoned what little remaining unpoisoned water there was in the well. Democrats as a whole now believe that if they play by the traditional rules of Senatorial behavior, the Republicans will just shaft them by not playing by those rules themselves, and so they’re not willing to play by the traditional rules. There is *zero* chance of fixing this in the next 2-5 years.

    aphrael (3f0569)

  9. Dave: there are two major concerns, one economic, one political.

    The economic concern is this: if it becomes commonplace that producers of high-bandwidth content have to pay for access to a “fast lane”, which seems *very* likely on mobile, then this introduces a large barrier to entry to new competitors in the high-bandwidth-content-producing space: unless they can afford to pay the fast lane fees, they have a hard time competing because their packets are distributed more slowly. That’s a threat to innovation, and increases the risk that either tech innovation will slow or tech innovation will move offshore, making us less competitive.

    The political concern is this: absent net neutrality or something like it, there is nothing to prevent a broadband provider from blocking websites based on *content*, and large portions of the country have no effective broadband competition. Furthermore, they wouldn’t even necessarily be required to *notify* you that they’re doing it. This could be tremendously corrosive to political freedom.

    aphrael (3f0569)

  10. Disclaimer: I’m pro net neutrality and don’t particularly like Ajit Pai.

    Bombarding the FCC website with comments accusing Pai of being a pedophile is ABSOLUTELY IMMORAL AND UNACCEPTABLE. So is bombarding it with comments calling him a “dirty, sneaky Indian”, or threatening to kill his family. That’s jut not OK behavior.

    It’s also … infuriatingly common all over the internet. I’ve been an admin and a moderator on multiple sites over the years and spent an insane amount of time trying to trample this kind of nonsense into the dust. I wish we had a solution to this problem, but it seems to require that the public be more virtuous than it is.

    But going to his house, taking pictures of the inside through the open curtains, faking unwanted pizza delivery orders, etc?

    That’s gone outside the line of reasonable protest. Stand on the outside of the street picketing, ok, sure, I don’t *like* that but it’s something that we probably have to tolerate because it’s really hard to craft reasonable rules that prohibit that but don’t prohibit activity that clearly should be protected.

    But these things? The people trespassing to take pictures through the open window shades, the people calling in the fake pizza deliveries: those people belong in jail.

    aphrael (3f0569)

  11. I agree with aphrael, in every particular.

    I’m sorry that Obama picked the false, misleading and manipulative label “Net Neutrality” to call “government regulation”, but I support it. I don’t like my ISP picking and choosing that I should download Amazon at 1.2 megabytes per second and Patterico at 1.2 kilobytes (not that big an exaggeration) which is what happens without it.

    As for Ajit Pai, it’s too bad he can’t live in Texas. Next door to Joe Horn.

    nk (dbc370)

  12. He’s now being extradited to Kansas, to be charged with . . . murder? Nope, “making a false alarm.” I think that’s absurd, and that it’s murder, but hey. What do I know?

    For murder, the state would have to make the case that a SWATting call to the police is the same as pointing a rabid dog at somebody and saying “sic’em”. As I understand it, the fugitive warrant on which Barris is being extradited is from the Wichita police. Maybe they’re not ready to confess that, yet?

    Personally, I might believe that about the Minneapolis police. Or the LA County Sheriff. But for now, I take the view that the Wichita police just had a Lon Horiuchi with them that night.

    nk (dbc370)

  13. Thanks for the explanation, but there are a few things that don’t make sense to me (admittedly, I have not tried to inform myself by research on the topic).

    The economic concern is this: if it becomes commonplace that producers of high-bandwidth content have to pay for access to a “fast lane”, which seems *very* likely on mobile, then this introduces a large barrier to entry to new competitors in the high-bandwidth-content-producing space

    That’s like saying freeway tolls create a barrier to entry by new delivery services, which seems kind of implausible. As long as everybody pays the same for “fast lane” access, it seems like it should come out in the wash as part of the fees charged to end-users or whoever else is paying the freight (e.g. advertisers).

    Also, isn’t it the mega-scale, established content providers like Google, Netflix, etc who are pushing this, and don’t they have the most to *gain* from these alleged barriers to entry for future competitors?

    Finally, “threats to innovation” work both ways. There is less incentive to provide premium service or new and improved features if you can’t charge for it accordingly to recover your development and deployment costs.

    The web is THE great success story of free enterprise in our lifetimes (invented by a fellow physicist at the lab where I worked at the time … you’re welcome …) and the US government’s policy of salutary neglect has been a huge contributing factor in that.

    The political concern is this: absent net neutrality or something like it, there is nothing to prevent a broadband provider from blocking websites based on *content*, and large portions of the country have no effective broadband competition.

    Preventing your customers from reaching content they want access to sounds like a perfect way to generate competition…

    This certainly bears watching, but it strikes me a solution in search of a problem, rather than the other way around.

    If there were sound business reasons for this type of corporate sociopathy, surely it would have made more sense, and been easier to get away with, 5, 10, 15 years ago. That it hasn’t happened on any significant scale by now suggests that it probably won’t, because the backlash would be catastrophic.

    I agree with aphrael, in every particular

    Filthy Keynesian.

    Dave (9aedfd)

  14. If there were sound business reasons for this type of corporate sociopathy, surely it would have made more sense, and been easier to get away with, 5, 10, 15 years ago.

    I believe that it was not possible for ISPs to limit bandwidth and download speeds at all before 1998. Then, little by little, they figured out ways to do it and screw their customers and their non-favorite sites.

    I’m not a techie. aphrael is, and would know the details.

    Rug peddler’s shill!

    nk (dbc370)

  15. Speaking of terror, it appears that somebody burned down the house of Tina Johnson, one of Roy Moore’s accusers.

    Not to put too fine a point on it, but we were promised that crime and violence would end almost a year ago…

    Dave (9aedfd)

  16. Yea Dave, and the Clintons promised aide to Haiti and all they got was plundered. We should feel lucky. Compared to what the democrats have been doing to the American people for over half a century (witnessed by Philly, Chicago, St. Louis, Cincinnati, Detroit, Flint and I could go on and on) Trump is a rookie liar. But I do feel your pain. I only wish you had been as hard-nosed about obummers lies. Obviously anything good accomplished by Trump is voided by his broken promises.

    The really good news is that Hillary isn’t there to keep hers like Gloria Allred for SC justice.

    Rev.Hoagie (6bbda7)

  17. All fires are “investigated for arson” by fire marshals. This #FakeNews is news only because it involves a Roy Moore accuser.

    nk (dbc370)

  18. The fire at the huntress’s church hasn’t been solved in eight years

    narciso (d1f714)

  19. All one needs to know is Jimmy Kimmel, Tom Hanks, Rosie O’Donnell, Steven Colbert, Chuck Schumer and Al Franken are for net neutrality. Any questions?

    Rev.Hoagie (6bbda7)

  20. “HOPE AND CHANGE: Regulations at ‘Lowest Count Since Records Began Being Kept in the Mid-1970s’: Economy advances while administrative state recedes; lefty commentators hardest hit.”

    http://reason.com/blog/2018/01/05/regulations-at-lowest-count-since-record

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  21. ” I don’t like my ISP picking and choosing that I should download Amazon at 1.2 megabytes per second and Patterico at 1.2 kilobytes”

    I don’t like my plumbing supply wholesaler charging me more for a part than he charges the guy who spends $200K per month for plumbing parts, but that’s life.

    Fred Z (05d938)

  22. The owner is always the primary suspect. And insurance companies do not pay for arson by the owner. It is not to this honey boo boo’s advantage to have the fire marshal make a finding of arson. She will have a fight on her hands to convince the insurance company that she did not do it. That would include an investigation into her past and into her present financial situation, believe you me, I guarantee it. A good rule for everybody: If you ever have a fire, avoid the a-word.

    nk (dbc370)

  23. Notice the Authoritarians shrink under the glare of sunlight with it’s anti-bacterial properties and vampiric skin sensitivities. They can’t hide their lascivious love of AGs asset forfeiture recidivism.

    Admiral Ben Bunsen Burner (b3d5ab)

  24. to oppose this kind of insanity, no matter the politics of the people who engage in it.

    Consider taking Rohrabachers seat. It should be vacated soon .

    Admiral Ben Bunsen Burner (b3d5ab)

  25. That is a valid point, Fred Z, and I would be less in favor of Net Neutrality if the FCC had kept its hands off of the internet altogether and left things the way they were. I don’t think that Net Neutrality is worth the government takeover, to put it bluntly. But now that it has, I want its rules to be in my favor and not in ATT’s and Comcast’s.

    nk (dbc370)

  26. we are governed by people who, if they do not fit the constitutional definition of being traitors, are behaving like traitors in all but name. I hung some bright lights on the fact that, just in the last week, Republicans have called for investigations into Hillary Rodham Clinton, James Comey, Huma Abedin, and Jerry Brown, none of whom have done anything except inconvenience the grifter-in-chief and his worthless spalpeens. It was all set to go.

    http://www.esquire.com/news-politics/politics/a14764646/never-trump-means-never-republican/

    Admiral Ben Bunsen Burner (b3d5ab)

  27. So-called net neutrality works well for – it advantages – Big Tech in Silicon Valley. That is primary reason why the Obama administration pushed it. Big Tech does not need the help, they already dominate and control the world. Rid the world of Obama’s Fecal Touch. No net neutrality.

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  28. that’s so mean to do that to the pizza delivery people especially during winter

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  29. my sorting hat says tyler barriss is slytherin

    at first i hoped he was just a confuzzled goof but it sure does look like he might could be evil

    evil is no good

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  30. Regulations at ‘Lowest Count Since Records Began Being Kept in the Mid-1970s’

    Sorry to bust your talking point (did Trump himself tweet this misleading claim out during a commercial break on The Gorilla Network?), but this 2016 whitepaper by the Congressional Research Service (a congressional office) explains why the number of pages of the Federal Register has virtually nothing to do with volume of economically significant government regulations (see the “Summary” at the beginning for a good overview, but the whole thing is interesting).

    Although the number of regulations issued each year is generally in the thousands, many of those regulations deal with routine matters. For example, a rule issued on April 2, 2013, by the U.S. Coast Guard provided notice of a “temporary deviation from the operating schedule that governs the Third Street Drawbridge across the China Basin, mile 0.0, at San Francisco, CA. The deviation is necessary to allow the public to cross the bridge to participate in the scheduled CycleSF, a community event.”

    And later:

    As noted above, the number of pages in the Federal Register may be only a rough approximation of regulatory activity each year for several reasons. First, the section of the Federal Register devoted to publishing final rules is relatively small, because the Federal Register documents other non-regulatory activities as well. For example, in 2015, approximately 30% of the total pages were in the “Rules and Regulations” section, which is where final rules are published. The other portions of the Federal Register are used for such items as presidential documents, proposed rules, notices, and corrections. Other than the proposed rules, these additional sections typically have little, if anything, to do with federal regulations. Over 1,000 pages each year are blank pages or skips, which are designed to leave room for other materials and to maintain the integrity of the individual sections.

    Also note that any actual deregulation would not necessarily reduce the page count, as the amended or eliminated rules would, themselves, have been included. This crucial caveat is buried at the bottom of the Competitive Enterprise Institute page that the numbers came from.

    The shorter page count of the 2017 Register may be a reflection of the general dysfunction of the Trump administration, with hundreds of high-level policy-making posts still unfilled due to incompetence and lack of preparation to govern.

    This page at the CEI site (What Regulations Did Trump Eliminate) provides a bit more realistic view.

    Reading the list 67 deregulatory actions completed exposes claims that Trump somehow deserves praise for the economy’s middling performance during last year for the nonsense they are. Calling these trivial deregulatory actions “smallball” would be far too generous…

    A few examples:

    “Importation of Bone-in Ovine Meat from Uruguay RIN: 0579-AE21″

    “Regulatory Omnibus Framework Adjustment to Modify Reporting Requirements for Electronic Vessel Trip Reports by Federally-Permitted For-Hire Vessels and Operators in the Mid-Atlantic Region RIN: 0648-BG60″

    “Food Labeling; Nutrition Labeling of Standard Menu Items in Restaurants and Similar Retail Food Establishments; Extension of Compliance Date; Request for Comments RIN: 0910-AG57″

    “Endangered and Threatened Wildlife and Plants; Removal of the Scarlet-Chested Parakeet and Turquoise Parakeet From the List of Endangered and Threatened Wildlife RIN: 1018-BB29″

    “Savings Arrangements Established by Qualified State Political Subdivisions for Non-Governmental Employees RIN: 1210-AB76″

    President Trump sure showed those Scarlet-Chested Parakeets who’s boss!

    Dave (9aedfd)

  31. Drudge summarizes the State of the Economy

    Awesome – 42M Food Stamp recipients under Trump, compared to 28M in Dubya’s worst year!

    Should we call him “Food Stamp Don”?

    (The participation rate has been falling every year since 2013…)

    Dave (9aedfd)

  32. If Shrump only got Gorsuch in, he’s fully successful. Everything else is written in invisible ink..fading away.

    Admiral Ben Bunsen Burner (b3d5ab)

  33. 28 million was before the Great Recession. Obummer pushed participation to over 48 million so 42 million means it’s coming down. So we should call him “Cutting down the Food Stamp Don”. Don’t cook the books, Dave. When it comes to the economy there aren’t many things which aren’t better under Trump than Hussein Mandela. Promises are another story.

    Rev.Hoagie (6bbda7)

  34. What does it take to impeach a Beef Supreme?

    Admiral Ben Bunsen Burner (b3d5ab)

  35. “In this sense they are like the most enthusiastic Trumpers…..”

    IOW – “Can’t……resist……must…compare…to…Trump supporters……”

    10 points for finding the story.

    Minus 1000 for the last three paragraphs.

    harkin (8256c3)

  36. Outrageous, unjustified, and far-fetched? No more than McConnell/Grassley & republicans’ criminally unconstitutional, historically unprecedented, totally reprehensible refusal to even grant Garland hearings, much less a vote.

    https://m.dailykos.com/stories/2017/4/7/1651425/-Impeach-Gorsuch

    Admiral Ben Bunsen Burner (b3d5ab)

  37. How’s the labor participation rate?

    Davethulhu (99cc74)

  38. btw – you do a disservice calling them the “Anti-Trump Resistance”

    They call themselves anti-Trump.

    They are really anti-Constitution.

    harkin (8256c3)

  39. Assuming Pat won’t see I’ll ask harkin..

    How are antihumps bypassing the Constitution?

    Admiral Ben Bunsen Burner (b3d5ab)

  40. …a “Trump-level understanding of policy” is an example of a Patterico-level obsession with self-mate.

    ropelight (a281b6)

  41. This is sadly the pattern if the brigatte the balder and action direct the last came on the scene a decade later.

    narciso (d1f714)

  42. They are really anti-Constitution.
    harkin (8256c3) — 1/6/2018 @ 8:47 am

    There are laws against intimidating federal government officials. (Even in the Ninth Circuit if it includes threats of violence.) I’d recommend putting them in cells with a guy named Bubba, but I have a feeling that’s what they’re hoping for.

    nk (dbc370)

  43. @13

    If there were sound business reasons for this type of corporate sociopathy, surely it would have made more sense, and been easier to get away with, 5, 10, 15 years ago. That it hasn’t happened on any significant scale by now suggests that it probably won’t, because the backlash would be catastrophic.

    It has happened. The biggest example was Comcast throttling bittorrent traffic back in 2008. This ultimately led to the net neutrality rules.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comcast_Corp._v._FCC

    As far as the backlash argument is concerned, backlash doesn’t matter if you have a monopoly.

    Davethulhu (99cc74)

  44. ACLU to storm 2018 midterms
    The group is aiming to become the NRA of the left, starting with plans to spend tens of millions in the election.

    Woot!

    Admiral Ben Bunsen Burner (b3d5ab)

  45. So is there a Fagan, behind burriss, enquiring minds want to know.

    narciso (d1f714)

  46. could one even imagine a more hypocritical p.o.s.

    Pope: Don’t make money, career whole life…

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  47. When it comes to the economy there aren’t many things which aren’t better under Trump than Hussein Mandela.

    Sure, but all the positive economic trends have been underway for years, and none of them are due to any policy of Trump’s. Until the tax cut passed a couple weeks ago, there was no Trump economic policy, apart from “brag about all the statistics that I was calling ‘phony’, ‘fake’, ‘fictitious’, etc, until I could try to take credit for them myself”.

    Want me to say something positive? OK, Trump hasn’t done anything egregiously stupid (like starting the trade war he promised) to interrupt the gradual recovery that has been going on for 6-7 years. Yay Trump!

    The Ryan tax-cut is a mixed bag, but let’s hope it does some good.

    But there has never been a time when the economy continues happily about its business with 4% unemployment for very long. The longest period of continuous economic expansion in US history is exactly 10 years – from March 1991 to March 2001. The current period of expansion started in June 2009. Do the math.

    Even under a conservative president who knew what he was doing, the likelihood of a downturn in the next few years would be substantial. It’s wise to project (cautious) economic optimism, but the praising Trump as an economic god responsible for every positive trend that’s been underway for the last 5+ years is gonna look pretty dumb when the numbers eventually head south.

    Here’s the graph of the historical unemployment rate.

    What do you notice always seems to happen when it has been falling for a long time, and reaches values as low as the current rate?

    Dave (9aedfd)

  48. Wow, Tyler Barriss. How strange that he turns up again! Sure hope the FBI is investigating his ties to political groups. Ha, ha.

    And the left doesn’t give a damn about net neutrality itself; it’s just a sexy-sounding issue that can rile people up for the next revolution or election. Like the Pai persecution, probably organized by the Robert Craemers of the country.

    And sure, there is insecurity in a free Internet, just like there was with free TV. Has the marriage between TV and government worked out? We were promised no commercials and quality arts programming. Instead every hack writer or actor in town is getting rich from our monthly premium — and still “there’s nothing on.”

    Patricia (5fc097)

  49. If it becomes commonplace that producers of high-bandwidth content have to pay for access to a “fast lane”, which seems *very* likely on mobile, then this introduces a large barrier to entry to new competitors

    But then why are incumbent providers like Netflix so adamantly in favor of “net neutrality”?

    The reality is that so-called “neutrality” is merely a scheme where the high-bandwidth-providers can externalize the costs of the infrastructure build-out needed for their business model. The ISPs (and peering and fiber companies) have to bear all this cost, raising their rates on all users, not just the Netflix subscribers.

    The political concern is this: absent net neutrality or something like it, there is nothing to prevent a broadband provider from blocking websites based on *content*

    Instead, under “neutrality”, the social media companies and hosting providers will be the censors. Not sure where the win is here.

    Kevin M (752a26)

  50. Swatting is “murder by cop” or “attempted murder by cop” in the same way that pointing a gun at police is “suicide by cop.”

    Kevin M (752a26)

  51. And the left doesn’t give a damn about net neutrality itself;

    They certainly don’t favor it due to the fear of censorship — the left is perfectly happy with Twitter and Facebook doing all the censoring they want — they’re just afraid the ISPs aren’t as controllable as social media.

    Kevin M (752a26)

  52. The group is aiming to become the NRA of the left, starting with plans to spend tens of millions in the election.

    Where do I donate?

    “Democrat X is an atheist who opposes the death penalty, wants criminals freed on technicalities, and wants to keep you Christer assholes out of politics entirely. Vote for X!”

    Kevin M (752a26)

  53. If, as I suspect, the police sniper protocols for hostage situations is to “take out” the perpetrator at the first opportunity, regardless of what he is doing, you may be right. But will the police admit this? That’s one. Two is: Can you prove the SWATter knew this?

    nk (dbc370)

  54. And three, you’re ok with that?

    nk (dbc370)

  55. Awesome – 42M Food Stamp recipients under Trump, compared to 28M in Dubya’s worst year!

    Under W, adults with no children were generally not eligible for food stamps. Obama changed that and the floodgates opened. Going from W to Trump you seem to be passing over someone for the sake of your narrative.

    Kevin M (752a26)

  56. @56

    If you’re not happy with your social media companies, form a competitor. Unlike ISPs, Twitter, Facebook, etc don’t have a govt granted monopoly.

    If you don’t like that ISPs have monopolies, why was there this big push to remove neutrality without a corresponding push to remove the monopolies?

    Davethulhu (99cc74)

  57. 47 – Comcast’s throttling was in 2008. The OIO wasn’t in place until 2015. So how do you explain what happened in the intervening years?

    The bottom line is that investors are not going to invest billions of dollars into internet infrastructure, a competitive commodity business with high up-front costs if there’s no control over the network.

    The Internet is not, and never has been, neutral and as David Clark would say, you are delusional with your “happy little bunny rabbit dreams.”

    http://iep.clemson.edu/wp-content/uploads/2009/02/Internet_Architect_Suggests.Feb2009.pdf

    Lenny (5ea732)

  58. Captain Food Stamp assured us that food stamps have powerful multiplier effects

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  59. Can you prove the SWATter knew this?

    Don’t have to. At least not for manslaughter. If I throw a toaster out a 10th story windo and it lands on someone, I will be cited for more than “littering.”

    The act is one of careless disregard for the danger posed to others. If as a result of that careless disregard someone is injured or dies, it is not a stretch to call it a homicide.

    Kevin M (752a26)

  60. Going from W to Trump you seem to be passing over someone for the sake of your narrative.

    I said that the rate had been falling since 2013. That implies that it was increasing before.

    I guess my attempts to point out flawed reasoning and misappropriation of statistics by imitating them are lost on some.

    Comparing Dubya’s food stamp enrollment to Trump’s is obviously ridiculous. So is claiming that Donald Trump is responsible for a trend that has been underway for the last four years.

    Dave (9aedfd)

  61. Kevin is upset.

    Admiral Ben Bunsen Burner (b3d5ab)

  62. If you don’t like that ISPs have monopolies,

    What monopolies? I have many choices for internet.

    I have the phone company, the cable company, several other providers like Covad and all the cell carriers. In some places there are municipal systems, co-ops and satellite links. ANd there is the 5G stuff on the horizon.

    Kevin M (752a26)

  63. You can’t reason with a tiger when your head is in his mouth!

    Admiral Ben Bunsen Burner (b3d5ab)

  64. @62

    From 2010 to 2014, the FCC Open Internet Order was in effect.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FCC_Open_Internet_Order_2010

    It was challenged in court by Verizon and largely vacated, which then led to the 2015 OIO.

    Davethulhu (99cc74)

  65. Kevin M shows he gets it with several comments.

    Patterico (ed9208)

  66. …a “Trump-level understanding of policy” is an example of a Patterico-level obsession with self-mate

    I could have said a “fourth-grade level of understanding of policy” but I wanted to denigrate the millenials more.

    Patterico (ed9208)

  67. Granting you’re right about the SWATter’s guilt, what about the shooter? Is he guilty of anything? Or is he as innocent as the toaster?

    nk (dbc370)

  68. Ben is always willing to support those with a petard has the expert on anarchism that doesn’t know that they always lose, in France in Spain in Russia and the us.

    narciso (d1f714)

  69. Yes involuntary .manslaughter, is that still applicable.

    narciso (d1f714)

  70. @67

    1/3 of the population has only a single ISP. Mobile is not a viable alternative due to data rates and caps.

    Davethulhu (99cc74)

  71. Dave, I’m sorry we’ve neglected to thank you for inventing the Internet. Our praise has been misdirected at Al Gore all these years.

    Leviticus (b94909)

  72. 62… Lenny gets it. Best post re: net neutrality. The beauty of fiber is that bandwidth increases with replacement of electronics at end points. But it is very expensive to plow and put it in the ground. Again, the POS net neutrality greatly advantaged the Big Tech giants, which was the plan from its inception.

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  73. Mr. nk it’s beginning to look like the failmerican popo kinda *like* being used as trusty little tools by folks like our slytherin friend

    for context remember what the sleazy popo did in wisconsin during john doe

    they’re pliable and willing gestapos anymore

    it’s who they are

    and it’s a dangerous situation

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  74. Dave would have to be old enough to be collecting SS to lend any credence to his ManBearPig-like claim. I’m cereal.

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  75. Any whatsoever. Even a smattering.

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  76. They are only acting according to policy, Mr. happyfeet. Which absolves them of responsibility. And in the now-famous-on-Patterico’s Pontification case of Ashcroft v. Iqbal, Mr. Kennedy the Justice ruled that the people who set the policy cannot be held responsible either because that would paralyze the government. Is very sad. Like Latvia. Hide your potato.

    nk (dbc370)

  77. Like the mountain guide with the swahili.

    narciso (d1f714)

  78. Dave, I’m sorry we’ve neglected to thank you for inventing the Internet. Our praise has been misdirected at Al Gore all these years.

    LOL. Touche’.

    I find most people don’t know the web – not the internet – was invented by a physicist; forgive me for throwing in a shameless plug for my profession…

    It’s true I didn’t invent the internet, or the web. However…

    I was in a band with some of the ladies in the first photograph ever posted on the web.

    And I was also on the first softball team in the world with a web page.

    So there is that.

    Dave (9aedfd)

  79. Pontification*s*

    nk (dbc370)

  80. a good policy would be to deny this generation of sleazy pop their pensions and laugh when their mistresses leave them and they have to spend their dotage living in a 2-bedroom ramshackle with their fat-ass wives

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  81. oopers this generation of sleazy *popo* i mean

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  82. Dave would have to be old enough to be collecting SS to lend any credence to his ManBearPig-like claim.

    The World Wide Web was invented and launched by Tim Berners-Lee at CERN in 1991. I worked there from 1991 to 1997.

    (It’s a large international lab, employing thousands of people, and to my knowledge, I never met Berners-Lee personally)

    Dave (9aedfd)

  83. The web sprang from ARPANet, a government project dating back a half century.

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  84. Iqbal concerns illegal activity, ordered by superiors, Does it not, the officer didn’t have the expectation that the subject would be innocent.

    narciso (d1f714)

  85. The invention and employment of TCP/IP protocol was what brought what we know as the Internet into being. I’ve worked with many colleagues who were prime movers in the standards bodies of the technologies developed and used.

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  86. “In this sense they are like the most enthusiastic Trumpers…..”

    IOW – “Can’t……resist……must…compare…to…Trump supporters……”

    10 points for finding the story.

    Minus 1000 for the last three paragraphs.

    So you support the Cernoviches and Posobiecs of the world. You would support the tactics described the article if directed at, say, Nancy Pelosi rather than Ajit Pai.

    If no, then stop grousing at me for making a point you agree with.

    If yes, then you are indeed part of the problem. And I am thrilled to have your criticism.

    So which is it?

    Patterico (115b1f)

  87. I was using the web when it was just one of several options to access the internet including telnet among others.

    NJRob (b00189)

  88. The beauty of fiber is that bandwidth increases with replacement of electronics at end points. But it is very expensive to plow and put it in the ground. Again, the POS net neutrality greatly advantaged the Big Tech giants, which was the plan from its inception.

    I am shocked! Shocked, to see an actual salient thought. It truly is a random universe..

    Admiral Ben Bunsen Burner (b3d5ab)

  89. The web sprang from ARPANet, a government project dating back a half century.

    You should educate yourself on the difference between “the World Wide Web” and “the internet”.

    While the terms have become interchangeable in casual speech, they are not at all the same things.

    Dave (9aedfd)

  90. The point is not the internet its these free range pirates inspired some might say directed by social media. Now our host and his family was targeted by a criminal psychopath, made respectable by his deft use if lawfare and ingratiating himself with a certain strata of gullible marks, who apparently have contacts in law enforcement.

    narciso (d1f714)

  91. No. According to Mr. Kennedy the Justice the superiors did not specifically order the jail guards to torture Mr. Iqbal and that was the end of the matter. They, the superiors, could not be held responsible for either the policy that led to his detention and torture, for the conduct of the guards as their agents in carrying out that policy (no respondeat superior), or for failing to supervise the guards.

    nk (dbc370)

  92. What is the common application of twombly and Iqbal, not the narrow particulars.

    narciso (d1f714)

  93. harkin, did you applaud when Laura Loomer and Jack Posobiec disrupted a play in Central Park?

    Do you cheer when people issue death threats against Roy Moore’s accusers?

    I have to assume that running over someone in Charlottesville or shooting people at abortion clinics is extreme enough to get a thumbs down from harkin.

    So why not join me in condemning disruption, threats, and political violence by everyone?

    Or you can pretend the left is the only one that engages in it. We can pretend the alt right, and its “let’s do what the left does!” mentality doesn’t exist — if that makes you more comfortable in your view that this is a one-sided issue.

    It’s just not the truth. And lies aren’t the way I operate.

    Minus 10,000 points for your comment as stated. Care to rephrase or elaborate?

    Patterico (115b1f)

  94. Telnet… Good Lord, the changes in technology over the last half century have been breathtaking. That is generally true of a great many fields, but when I sit back and ponder the changes I have seen in a career now spanning 45 years in my field, I marvel at man’s ingenuity and how much I don’t know.

    Speaking of the FCC, I think back on a visit I made to their office in DC in the Fall of 1988 – an attempt to get a favorable ruling on a serving arrangement/configuration on a customer’s prem – and remember how barebones shoddy (complete with cheap 1950s furniture) it was and thinking if other federal government agencies are this thrifty, I have no complaints, lol.

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  95. So you support the Cernoviches and Posobiecs of the world

    Suggest “In this sense they are like the Cernoviches and Posobiecs of the world”, since that’s what you meant. Or, “In this sense they are like the most extreme off-the-chart enthusiastic Trump supporter outliers, making this association with Trump supporters basically meaningless.”

    Otherwise, a venn diagram might help to identify the absurdity.

    random viking (616c92)

  96. I was using the web when it was just one of several options to access the internet including telnet among others.

    Entirely possible, but not before 1991 (and as a practical matter, the web did not diffuse out of the scientific community for another couple years).

    Mosaic (released in 1993) was the first recognizable web browser, followed within the next couple years by Netscape and Internet Explorer.

    I’m not making any of this up…

    Dave (9aedfd)

  97. 94… You should rely on more than Wikipedia, Dave. I never conflated the two.

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  98. They have been empire building since then, this wee before the great tech age, recall it was in the early 90s, that they thought virtual rreality.An immersive but generally narrow enterprise wee the future.

    Bet apparently Robert creamer got away again with the j 20 petardiers, its striking how little attention that story got.

    narciso (d1f714)

  99. I was pointing out this not merely an academic exercise, and one should note that in cavalier responses on this subject.

    narciso (d1f714)

  100. Here’s a good timeline from Live Science…

    “The precursor to the Internet was jumpstarted in the early days of computing history, in 1969 with the U.S. Defense Department’s Advanced Research Projects Agency Network (ARPANET). ARPA-funded researchers developed many of the protocols used for Internet communication today. This timeline offers a brief history of the Internet’s evolution:

    1965: Two computers at MIT Lincoln Lab communicate with one another using packet-switching technology.

    1968: Beranek and Newman, Inc. (BBN) unveils the final version of the Interface Message Processor (IMP) specifications. BBN wins ARPANET contract.

    1969: On Oct. 29, UCLA’s Network Measurement Center, Stanford Research Institute (SRI), University of California-Santa Barbara and University of Utah install nodes. The first message is “LO,” which was an attempt by student Charles Kline to “LOGIN” to the SRI computer from the university. However, the message was unable to be completed because the SRI system crashed.

    1972: BBN’s Ray Tomlinson introduces network email. The Internetworking Working Group (INWG) forms to address need for establishing standard protocols.

    1973: Global networking becomes a reality as the University College of London (England) and Royal Radar Establishment (Norway) connect to ARPANET. The term Internet is born.

    1974: The first Internet Service Provider (ISP) is born with the introduction of a commercial version of ARPANET, known as Telenet.

    1974: Vinton Cerf and Bob Kahn (the duo said by many to be the Fathers of the Internet) publish “A Protocol for Packet Network Interconnection,” which details the design of TCP.

    1976: Queen Elizabeth II hits the “send button” on her first email.

    1979: USENET forms to host news and discussion groups.

    1981: The National Science Foundation (NSF) provided a grant to establish the Computer Science Network (CSNET) to provide networking services to university computer scientists.

    1982: Transmission Control Protocol (TCP) and Internet Protocol (IP), as the protocol suite, commonly known as TCP/IP, emerge as the protocol for ARPANET. This results in the fledgling definition of the Internet as connected TCP/IP internets. TCP/IP remains the standard protocol for the Internet.

    1983: The Domain Name System (DNS) establishes the familiar .edu, .gov, .com, .mil, .org, .net, and .int system for naming websites. This is easier to remember than the previous designation for websites, such as 123.456.789.10.

    1984: William Gibson, author of “Neuromancer,” is the first to use the term “cyberspace.”

    1985: Symbolics.com, the website for Symbolics Computer Corp. in Massachusetts, becomes the first registered domain.

    1986: The National Science Foundation’s NSFNET goes online to connected supercomputer centers at 56,000 bits per second — the speed of a typical dial-up computer modem. Over time the network speeds up and regional research and education networks, supported in part by NSF, are connected to the NSFNET backbone — effectively expanding the Internet throughout the United States. The NSFNET was essentially a network of networks that connected academic users along with the ARPANET.

    1987: The number of hosts on the Internet exceeds 20,000. Cisco ships its first router.

    1989: World.std.com becomes the first commercial provider of dial-up access to the Internet.

    1990: Tim Berners-Lee, a scientist at CERN, the European Organization for Nuclear Research, develops HyperText Markup Language (HTML). This technology continues to have a large impact on how we navigate and view the Internet today.

    1991: CERN introduces the World Wide Web to the public.

    1992: The first audio and video are distributed over the Internet. The phrase “surfing the Internet” is popularized.

    1993: The number of websites reaches 600 and the White House and United Nations go online. Marc Andreesen develops the Mosaic Web browser at the University of Illinois, Champaign-Urbana. The number of computers connected to NSFNET grows from 2,000 in 1985 to more than 2 million in 1993. The National Science Foundation leads an effort to outline a new Internet architecture that would support the burgeoning commercial use of the network.

    1994: Netscape Communications is born. Microsoft creates a Web browser for Windows 95.

    1994: Yahoo! is created by Jerry Yang and David Filo, two electrical engineering graduate students at Stanford University. The site was originally called “Jerry and David’s Guide to the World Wide Web.” The company was later incorporated in March 1995.

    1995: Compuserve, America Online and Prodigy begin to provide Internet access. Amazon.com, Craigslist and eBay go live. The original NSFNET backbone is decommissioned as the Internet’s transformation to a commercial enterprise is largely completed.

    1995: The first online dating site, Match.com, launches.

    1996: The browser war, primarily between the two major players Microsoft and Netscape, heats up. CNET buys tv.com for $15,000.

    1996: A 3D animation dubbed “The Dancing Baby” becomes one of the first viral videos.

    1997: Netflix is founded by Reed Hastings and Marc Randolph as a company that sends users DVDs by mail.

    1997: PC makers can remove or hide Microsoft’s Internet software on new versions of Windows 95, thanks to a settlement with the Justice Department. Netscape announces that its browser will be free.

    1998: The Google search engine is born, changing the way users engage with the Internet.

    1998: The Internet Protocol version 6 introduced, to allow for future growth of Internet Addresses. The current most widely used protocol is version 4. IPv4 uses 32-bit addresses allowing for 4.3 billion unique addresses; IPv6, with 128-bit addresses, will allow 3.4 x 1038 unique addresses, or 340 trillion trillion trillion.

    1999: AOL buys Netscape. Peer-to-peer file sharing becomes a reality as Napster arrives on the Internet, much to the displeasure of the music industry.

    2000: The dot-com bubble bursts. Web sites such as Yahoo! and eBay are hit by a large-scale denial of service attack, highlighting the vulnerability of the Internet. AOL merges with Time Warner

    2001: A federal judge shuts down Napster, ruling that it must find a way to stop users from sharing copyrighted material before it can go back online.

    2003: The SQL Slammer worm spread worldwide in just 10 minutes. Myspace, Skype and the Safari Web browser debut.

    2003: The blog publishing platform WordPress is launched.

    2004: Facebook goes online and the era of social networking begins. Mozilla unveils the Mozilla Firefox browser.

    2005: YouTube.com launches. The social news site Reddit is also founded.

    2006: AOL changes its business model, offering most services for free and relying on advertising to generate revenue. The Internet Governance Forum meets for the first time.

    2006: Twitter launches. The company’s founder, Jack Dorsey, sends out the very first tweet: “just setting up my twttr.”

    2009: The Internet marks its 40th anniversary.

    2010: Facebook reaches 400 million active users.

    2010: The social media sites Pinterest and Instagram are launched.

    2011: Twitter and Facebook play a large role in the Middle East revolts.

    2012: President Barack Obama’s administration announces its opposition to major parts of the Stop Online Piracy Act and the Protect Intellectual Property Act, which would have enacted broad new rules requiring internet service providers to police copyrighted content. The successful push to stop the bill, involving technology companies such as Google and nonprofit organizations including Wikipedia and the Electronic Frontier Foundation, is considered a victory for sites such as YouTube that depend on user-generated content, as well as “fair use” on the Internet.

    2013: Edward Snowden, a former CIA employee and National Security Agency (NSA) contractor, reveals that the NSA had in place a monitoring program capable of tapping the communications of thousands of people, including U.S. citizens.

    2013: Fifty-one percent of U.S. adults report that they bank online, according to a survey conducted by the Pew Research Center.

    2015: Instagram, the photo-sharing site, reaches 400 million users, outpacing Twitter, which would go on to reach 316 million users by the middle of the same year.

    2016: Google unveils Google Assistant, a voice-activated personal assistant program, marking the entry of the Internet giant into the “smart” computerized assistant marketplace. Google joins Amazon’s Alexa, Siri from Apple, and Cortana from Microsoft.”

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  101. pervy Mitt Romney’s slicked-up and ready boytoy Paul Ryan has a wall around his house for so nobody can do peeky-peeky

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  102. Twiqbal is how Palin got her lawsuit against NYT dismissed. It used to be that in a motion to dismiss, the court had to accept well-pleaded facts as true and decide whether they set forth a claim for which relief can be granted under the law. Twombly and Iqbal give the court discretion to also rule whether the claim is plausible.

    Old:
    Plaintiff: Mr. narciso owes me $10,000.
    Court: Fair enough. We’ll have a trial and you can try to prove it.

    After Twiqbal:
    Plaintiff: Mr. narciso owes me $10,000.
    Court: a) I find the claim plausible. We’ll have a trial and you can try to prove it.
    b) I don’t find the claim plausible and I see no need to waste anybody’s time with a trial. Case dismissed.

    nk (dbc370)

  103. You should rely on more than Wikipedia, Dave. I never conflated the two.

    Then what was the point of saying (dismissively):

    The web sprang from ARPANet, a government project dating back a half century.

    And it did not “spring” from ARPANet. It built on networking protocols and infrastructure that were developed as part of ARPANet, sure.

    By the same token, my iPhone relies on advances in microwave technology developed for military radar during World War II. But my iPhone didn’t “spring” from any WWII radar station.

    Dave (9aedfd)

  104. In so far, a the pizzagate matter can be considered incitement then yes, one might argue that Caesar presentation with David rasche who I don’t think has been seen in public since barbarians at the gate, that might also be considered provocation ymmv.

    narciso (d1f714)

  105. So you support the Cernoviches and Posobiecs of the world

    Suggest “In this sense they are like the Cernoviches and Posobiecs of the world”, since that’s what you meant. Or, “In this sense they are like the most extreme off-the-chart enthusiastic Trump supporter outliers, making this association with Trump supporters basically meaningless.”

    Otherwise, a venn diagram might help to identify the absurdity.

    Ooh ooh I have a good formulation! See what you think of this:

    In this sense they are like the most enthusiastic Trumpers, who elevate the virtue of “hitting back” over any sense of morality, ethics, restraint, or proportion. I’m not talking about reluctant Trump voters, or people who don’t like him but think his administration has accomplished some good things. I’m talking about the Cernoviches and Posobiecs of the world: people who believe in outrageous behavior because they are imitating the excesses of the left.

    Which of course is a quote from the post you are commenting on. I bolded part of it to make it harder to skip over or ignore, but it’s otherwise the same exact language, cut and pasted from the post.

    My point is to make it clear that you are not off the hook just because you are a non-leftist or a Trump supporter. If you’re one of those people who goes around preaching that we have to engage in a little dishonesty and other foul tactics because hey that’s what the left does and they win so we need to do it too to win, and Trump understands that which is why he wins — then you are part of the problem.

    If you advocate immoral tactics, I am looking at you. Not just others. You.

    Patterico (115b1f)

  106. The invention and employment of TCP/IP protocol was what brought what we know as the Internet into being. I’ve worked with many colleagues who were prime movers in the standards bodies of the technologies developed and used.

    Somewhere there ought to be a statue of Jon Postel.

    Kevin M (752a26)

  107. Except the good judge went to the pretense is a Al, then says no soup for you.

    Like I saptated before Mcfarlane then Zimmerman and last the huntress, one can go back to westmoreland and Sharon, libel is the coin of the realm.

    narciso (d1f714)

  108. There have been films about gates and jobs yet not about Berner lee, and company the vasco De gama and Columbus of this brave new world.

    narciso (d1f714)

  109. Entirely possible, but not before 1991 (and as a practical matter, the web did not diffuse out of the scientific community for another couple years).

    Mosaic (released in 1993) was the first recognizable web browser, followed within the next couple years by Netscape and Internet Explorer.

    I’m not making any of this up…

    Dave (9aedfd) — 1/6/2018 @ 10:56 am

    I wasn’t using a browser.

    NJRob (b00189)

  110. Of course it was the warwitch Hillary rosen, last seen whining about bacon suits, that shutdown napster.

    So a larger example, without the edited transcripts that Liz alvarez of the times accepted. The edited audio by NBC news tag team, the edited video by abc Zimmerman would not have become a wanted man, subject to a fatwa from the panthers.

    narciso (d1f714)

  111. Here, Dave… this should help… “Credit for the initial concept that developed into the World Wide Web is typically given to Leonard Kleinrock. In 1961, he wrote about ARPANET, the predecessor of the Internet, in a paper entitled “Information Flow in Large Communication Nets.” Kleinrock, along with other innnovators such as J.C.R. Licklider, the first director of the Information Processing Technology Office (IPTO), provided the backbone for the ubiquitous stream of emails, media, Facebook postings and tweets that are now shared online every day.”

    https://www.livescience.com/20727-internet-history.html

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  112. Its like vie found put through the discovery channel fwiw tesla had the patent on radio technology till it waahanded over to Marconi, who built the rca empire upon it, after death it reverted back to him.

    narciso (d1f714)

  113. I think there’s a distinction between the development of TCP/IP and the development of http as a communication protocol on top of TCP/IP. My understanding is HTTP came out of CERN in the late 80s/early 90s, by which time TCP/IP had been around for a while.

    It looks to me like you are crediting Kleinrock, who wrote about ARPANET — but the web, strictly speaking, started as http and html, and was a distinct thing from the underlying internet.

    Still is, truth be told.

    aphrael (3f0569)

  114. Ooh ooh I have a good formulation! See what you think of this:

    I’m not talking about reluctant Trump voters, or people who don’t like him but think his administration has accomplished some good things

    I’m not a reluctant Trump voter, nor someone who does not like him. So, that means I’m good with you — or not? I’m not one of “the Cernoviches and Posobiecs of the world”, either, nor do I advocate immoral tactics. Again, try a venn diagram.

    Big Circle: Trump Supporters. Medium sized circle within: enthusiastic Trump supporters.
    Infinitely small dot within: the Cernoviches and Posobiecs of the world. Hence, absurd.

    Tell me, would “most enthusiastic Dole supporters” or “most enthusiastic Newt supporters” back in the day include the Timothy McVeighs of the world?

    random viking (616c92)

  115. A sign of intelligence is an understanding of just how little one knows.

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  116. Well kleinrock can be considered the copernicus if not galileo

    http://www.cnn.com/2009/TECH/10/29/kleinrock.internet/index.html8

    narciso (d1f714)

  117. There have been films about gates and jobs yet not about Berner lee, and company the vasco De gama and Columbus of this brave new world.

    Nobody remembers who built Columbus’s ships. Berners-Lee invented a protocol for displaying multi-media pages but it would do no good if those other folks hadn’t turned it into a system and a product.

    Kevin M (752a26)

  118. Possibly like NJRob, I can remember using telnet, ftp, various chat programs, irc, and gopher, *all* before the invention of the web. I initially thought the web was a fad and that gopher would win the day.

    aphrael (3f0569)

  119. That timeline ignores some of the streams that flowed into the river, such as Compuserve, The Source, GEnie, all the BBSes and other attempts to commercialize inter-computing. Yes, TCP/IP and HTML won in the end, but a lot of stuff got thrashed out on the sidelines.

    Kevin M (752a26)

  120. You have a gang of pirates, who intend mayhem attributed to law enfirvement they are generally nit that particular about the target. Behind them you have some even mote shadowy character, and the front for them is Camelbert and kimmel.

    narciso (d1f714)

  121. 124… Probably missed even more, Kevin. But yeah…

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  122. I got a CIS account in 1979 and that, and later GEnie, satisfied my online needs until ’95 or so when it became possible to get a dialup Internet account (with the newcomer Earthlink) without breaking the bank.

    CIS and such had the discussion board (like this one) down pat, complete with trolls (like this one).

    Kevin M (752a26)

  123. 2001: BitTorrent introduced; Google buys Usenet archive; blogs start

    Kevin M (752a26)

  124. 123… good thing no money was involved, aphrael.

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  125. He might be the vasco De gama after all:

    https://www.internethalloffame.org/inductees/jcr-licklider

    Can we focus on one particular egregious and malicious practice.

    narciso (d1f714)

  126. Did you know that, at 300pbs, you can read a discussion board in real time?

    Kevin M (752a26)

  127. Here, Dave… this should help…

    LOL. Yeah, sorry, but LiveScience.com is not an authority.

    Here’s the paper you cited. It is a theoretical model of the timing of packets travelling on a network. Nothing to do with the Web per se.

    As I said, you (and the editors of LiveScience.com) should educate yourselves on the difference between the World Wide Web and the Internet.

    I wasn’t using a browser.

    Cool. But before 1991 or 1992, there was nothing you could connect to, with or without a browser, using the web, because there were no web servers.

    Dave (9aedfd)

  128. But then why are incumbent providers like Netflix so adamantly in favor of “net neutrality”?

    Consider content/information as a product to market and an IP the distributor/retail outlet.

    Ever wonder why a Walmart has aisle-enders full of Panasonic batteries when you prefer to buy Duracells? So you save yourself some ‘search time’ shopping and just buy the Panasonic. That’s no accident. Marketers may buy/bribe/cajole/kickback-and-send-a-girl-to-your-room-too-compete for that valuable retail space; it’s finite. Consider NN on the web the way manufacturers and B&M stores do retail space for product placement. Then ask who you’d prefer controlling access to products you want to consume– the store, the manufacturer, or you. There’s a lot of $ at stake.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  129. nor do I advocate immoral tactics

    Then you’re good with me. Why you like the habitually dishonest man-child is a different discussion. In my experience the people who actually like the waste of oxygen say it’s because “he fights!” which usually boils down to an endorsement of immoral tactics.

    The only reason I bring Trump into it is that many Trump supporters who support immoral tactics cite Trump as a reason.

    I am interested in discussing further with you how someone “likes” such an immoral person, as opposed to simply being pleased with his tactics or his results.

    Patterico (115b1f)

  130. The method or protocol. One before the means or tools, I reference Bruce wagners wild palms dystopia on where they went wrong, also lawnmower man, by contrast Bradbury and Arthur c Clarke understood the end process better.

    narciso (d1f714)

  131. It seems so hard to get at the truth, nowadays thanks to the journalist echo chambers like Ben Rhodesia constructed you can get everything but, unless you dig incessantly like Howard carter.

    narciso (d1f714)

  132. for example who *doesn’t* fight is pervy Mitt Romney

    this is why CNN fake news propaganda slut Candy Crowley was able to do lies all up on him during his debate with food stamp and pervy Mitt Romney just sat there like the sick little pervert he is

    yes yes

    it’s easy to forget that doing peeky peeky in the windows – however shockingly immoral – is noted here more for its novelty than its immorality

    but the focus on peeky peeky also has the effect of normalizing

    normalizing the everyday immorality of trash like Lois Lerner

    trash like Candy Crowley

    trash like lying cowardpig John McCain

    trash like Sally Yates

    trash like Jim Comey

    this is overton 101

    i’m not falling for it though cause of i’m too smart (just smart not genius like President Trump)

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  133. The term “immoral tactics” is a big umbrella. Based on your post, it means bomb threats, having “vigils” on someone’s else’s property, and bring children into it. How you got from there to bringing “most enthusiastic Trump supporters” under that umbrella involves some leap. Yes, you walked it back to the “Cernoviches and Posobiecs of the world”, but that’s one helluva walk back. That was my point.

    I like him because what would have caused a Jeb/Kasich/Rubio/Romney/McCain to wilt and cave, he appears to be immune to. A Cruz might be in that league, but he wouldn’t have carried Michigan, Ohio, and Pennsylvania — so he’s a moot issue. The opposition expects Republicans to cave to accusations of being “mean spirited”, “racist”, or whatever epithet, because that is all they have.

    “The only reason I bring Trump into it is that many Trump supporters who support immoral tactics cite Trump as a reason.”

    Bomb threats, etc? Who exactly, besides those mentioned? Need some evidence, and I’m sure you have it.

    random viking (616c92)

  134. Andy McCarthy has a very nice primer this morning on the legal issue of “intent” and why it is completely warranted for DOJ to take another look at the Clinton email case notwithstanding the politicized exoneration of Clinton during the Obama administration.

    One way I always characterized “intent” so jurors could understand it is that “intent to commit a crime” is not what is required. That’s the canard that Comey put forward as the basis for Clinton’s exoneration.

    The issue of “intent” goes to the purposefulness of the action in question — generally its the absence of a mistake or and unwitting action.

    Everyone is charged with knowing what the law is. So if you “intentionally” act in a manner that violates the law, that is all that is required. It is not necessary — IN MOST INSTANCES — to prove an intention to violate the law by your action. There are a few statutes where that is required, but the requirement is specific to the language in the statute and well known to prosecutors and judges.

    As an illustration — lets say Clinton’s explanation for having a server in her residence was that she inquired of her State Dept staff about having access while at home to her email from her gov’t email address. The staff told her they would look into it, and then came back to say they could arrange that. Then a State Dept IT guy shows up at the NY house one day, accompanied by some tech installation guys, and they go down in the basement for a couple hours. They then come back and say “All taken care of, just use this email address when you are at home.”

    Under that scenario it would be hard to prove “intent” — she never asked for anything that would suggest that she was trying to evade the security protocols in order to keep her emails away from prying eyes in the government. There would be no way to prove that she intended to set up a system by which classified information would be transmitted across an unsecured network.

    As McCarthy points out, the evidence against Clinton shows pretty conclusively that she did, in fact, want to have created a system by which she could transmit classified information outside a secure network. That was the whole point of what she did — to get her communications beyond the reach of the State Dept IT guys. So it wasn’t a “mistake” on her part that the network set up at her residence was outside the existing State Dept network, and that classified information would be transmitted across that network. She didn’t have to “intend” to commit a crime — she only had to “intend” to take the action she took, i.e., she didn’t do it by mistake.

    And I would only note the absence of any demands from the media to investigate Obama for obstruction of justice based on his press conference where he said, in April 2016, that he did not believe Clinton had committed and crime, and that her actions were careless but taken without any intention to harm the US.

    Wasn’t that as much a signal to Comey as anything Trump is alleged to have said to Comey about Flynn?

    shipwreckedcrew (56b591)

  135. @105. =Haiku!= Gesundheit!

    The Colonel Ask-ed Jeeves!

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  136. I think there’s a distinction between the development of TCP/IP and the development of http as a communication protocol on top of TCP/IP. My understanding is HTTP came out of CERN in the late 80s/early 90s, by which time TCP/IP had been around for a while.

    It looks to me like you are crediting Kleinrock, who wrote about ARPANET — but the web, strictly speaking, started as http and html, and was a distinct thing from the underlying internet.

    Bingo.

    Nobody remembers who built Columbus’s ships. Berners-Lee invented a protocol for displaying multi-media pages but it would do no good if those other folks hadn’t turned it into a system and a product.

    Well, Columbus’s ships were no different than thousands of others. There was nothing new or innovative about them. Sorry, but I’m gonna cast Berners-Lee as Columbus.

    Once Columbus had made the breakthrough, the immediate consequences (initial conquest and colonization of the New World) were nearly inevitable. It took guts and hard work (and some luck) on the part of the conquistadors and first colonists, to be sure, but was there any chance the Europeans would just give up and go home? I don’t think so.

    I think the same is largely true for the web. The potential demonstrated by the initial breakthrough was enough to ensure that sufficient resources would be invested to exploit it and make it work eventually. That’s not to minimize the accomplishments of the people who risked their money and applied their creativity to the problem, but I don’t think the outcome was ever in doubt.

    The personal computer (where the key breakthrough was made at Xerox-PARC) developed much the same way.

    Dave (9aedfd)

  137. On the whole origin of the internet thing, I have no idea what it was because I’m not well-versed on the technology side of the internet or WWW, but in 1978 I was going to a local college library with a high school friend, and we could sign on to a computer network that let us play a very simple Star Trek inspired turn-based game.

    I’m guessing this was part of the network between colleges that began with the connection between Stanford and UCLA in the early 1970s.

    Anyone have any idea what I was doing back then?

    shipwreckedcrew (56b591)

  138. 134 — “he fights” as an endorsement of immoral tactics is a broad mischaracterization of a lot of Trump supporters who hold that view.

    Or I should say “another mischaracterization”….

    shipwreckedcrew (56b591)

  139. The term “immoral tactics” is a big umbrella. Based on your post, it means bomb threats, having “vigils” on someone’s else’s property, and bring children into it. How you got from there to bringing “most enthusiastic Trump supporters” under that umbrella involves some leap. Yes, you walked it back to the “Cernoviches and Posobiecs of the world”, but that’s one helluva walk back. That was my point.

    I didn’t think it was that difficult to understand either.

    It’s entering the realm of Ahab/Moby Dick

    harkin (a76a32)

  140. -crawls out from under rock-

    NK, I confess that I do not understand the nature of your relationship with Dave, but instead of:

    Rug peddler’s shill!
    nk (dbc370) — 1/6/2018 @ 5:31 am

    Perhaps “damned, dirty, ape!” might be preferred?

    Or “rapscallion Dave!” Just trying to help a brother out.

    -Crawls back under rock-

    felipe (023cc9)

  141. swc@139
    No. Trump’s conversation with Comey was a private conversation with the person in charge of the investigation asking him to go easy with Flynn in a general way. I don’t consider that obstruction of justice–in contrast to ordering Comey to not charge Flynn, which Trump did not fo.

    Trump’s public comments about Bowe Berghdahl do directly parallel that Obama press conference, both in content and in hypocritical treatment by the media.

    Kishnevi (0d40fa)

  142. @137- ‘$24 [or rubles] and a string of beads is ‘genius,’ Mr. Feet; taking full advantage of every edge you can get over a competitor to screw’em and win is the stink of raw, free market capitalism; it’s what made America great– and will Make America Great Again!!!!

    “I’d hate to take a bite outta you. You’re a cookie full of arsenic.” – J.J. Hunsecker [Burt Lancaster] ‘The Sweet Smell Of Success’ 1957

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  143. “Anyone have any idea what I was doing back then?”

    Um… 8 tracks and 6 packs?

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  144. R.I.P John Young, astronaut
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Young_(astronaut)

    Gemini 3 (first Gemini flight)
    Gemini 10 (docking tests)
    Apollo 10 (dry run with LEM, no landing)
    Apollo 16 (2nd trip to moon)
    STS-1 (first Shuttle flight)
    STS-9 (Spacelab)

    Kevin M (752a26)

  145. the stink of raw, free market capitalism

    there should be a Yankee Candle!

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  146. @150. Trump Candles!!! Can see a whole campaign: ‘Light the fire’ – Ivanka is on it, Mr. Feet! Dumb as a brick- no; goldbrick, maybe.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  147. “Strawberries… pootie poot poot, yada, yada…”

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  148. The difference between the Left and the Right on this kind of behavior is that the Political Establishment frequently gives the Leftwits who pull this sh*t a pardon, only occasionally gives the same kind of consideration to the Rightwits.

    If you espouse – or pretend to espouse – a Leftwing Cause you are Viewed With Approval. Maybe you will be told you have Gone Too Far, but it will be an indulgent telling off. After all, you Meant Well. If you espouse a Rightwing or Libertarian Cause you will be Viewed With Alarm. You will be called Racists, even if this forces those using the term to crop the picture they want to use to illustrate your racism to avoid revealing that the central figure is a Black man. Your speech will be denounced as the close equivalent to assaulting people with clubs.

    This isn’t to say that all Rightwing activists are innocent angels wrongly accused, OR that all Leftwing activists are evil vermin hiding behind a tissue of lies.

    But the Left gets let off too goddamned much, and thus often goes to goddamned far. And if the authorities ever actually started enforcing on the Left the policies they invoke on the Right many heart attacks would ensue.

    C. S. P. Schofield (99bd37)

  149. Anyone have any idea what I was doing back then?

    That “Star Trek” game was seemingly ubiquitous around the time you mention. I had my first encounter with a computer in 1978 too, on a terminal in my high school connected by modem to a main-frame at Burroughs Corp, who donated access time to us.

    And that game was one of everyone’s favorite way to waste time. Wikipedia has an article about it, which says the program was written in 1971.

    NK, I confess that I do not understand the nature of your relationship with Dave

    NK will be my sworn enemy until he recants his scurrilous and dastardly slanders against that shining beacon of conservative economic wisdom, Friedrich August von Hayek.

    Dave (9aedfd)

  150. No discussion of Trump asking them to go light on Flynn can happen without first discussion the INCREDIBLE obstruction that happened with Hillary Clinton. Flynn lied about something that was not a crime. Hillary and her coterie lied repeatedly about multiple serious felonies carrying penalties up to life imprisonment and then they all got off because the fix was so obviously in.

    I defy anyone to say that what Trump did was in any way comparable to the things that ought to put Comey, Comey’s staff, Hillary, Huma, Lynch, Bill Clinton and Obama himself behind bars for a long time.

    Kevin M (752a26)

  151. How you got from there to bringing “most enthusiastic Trump supporters” under that umbrella involves some leap. Yes, you walked it back to the “Cernoviches and Posobiecs of the world”, but that’s one helluva walk back. That was my point.

    A “walk back” is when you say one thing and then later have to retract part of it.

    When one phrase immediately follows another and both are published at the same time as part of the same piece, it’s not a “walk back.” You read the text together to allow one part to illuminate what is meant by another part.

    The piece criticizes those who support the use of immoral actions as a way to emulate the left’s “winning” tactics.

    If you have never seen such arguments being made, welcome back to reality, I hope you enjoyed your two-year coma.

    Patterico (115b1f)

  152. harkin, did you applaud when Laura Loomer and Jack Posobiec disrupted a play in Central Park?

    Do you cheer when people issue death threats against Roy Moore’s accusers?

    I have to assume that running over someone in Charlottesville or shooting people at abortion clinics is extreme enough to get a thumbs down from harkin.

    So why not join me in condemning disruption, threats, and political violence by everyone?

    [If the above sounds redundant, it’s because I already asked this question and you ignored it. So I’m asking again.]

    Patterico (115b1f)

  153. 155… I hope 2018 will be a productive year, in that respect.

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  154. It would be telling to note the number of US assets killed because of Hillary leaving SCI documents all over the place. The number is not zero. But, yeah, let’s throw the book at Trump because we hate him. That’s a great way to defend the Rule of Law.

    Kevin M (752a26)

  155. Of course, the question of who is the teller of the tale is .key, in the earlier instance it was Robert Mueller’s notes re the ashcrift matter were determunative. Now it is those alleged memos which .at or .at not be in the possession of the house.

    narciso (d1f714)

  156. It would be telling to note the number of US assets killed because of Hillary leaving SCI documents all over the place. The number is not zero.

    Really?

    (I think she should have been prosecuted regardless, but I am unfamiliar with this surprising claim…)

    Dave (9aedfd)

  157. 149 — a life well-lived.

    shipwreckedcrew (56b591)

  158. RIP Jerry van Dyke.

    Kishnevi (b347f4)

  159. shipwreckedcrew sez:

    134 — “he fights” as an endorsement of immoral tactics is a broad mischaracterization of a lot of Trump supporters who hold that view.

    Or I should say “another mischaracterization”….

    Indeed, shipwreckedcrew. The notion that any noticeable number of Trump supporters would defend immoral tactics by Trump, using the phrase “he fights” — that’s a total mischaracterization by me.

    You got me.

    Have a good day.

    *starts to walk out the door, stops, and turns*

    Oh, just one more thing, shipwreckedcrew:

    Does any of this sound familiar?

    I think where Patrick and I simply have a fundamental disagreement is I put a lot of stock in the fact that Trump — while not great politician or statesmen, and a guy who is attempting to execute the job of being President pretty much by the seat of his pants when his history in that regard isn’t very comforting — has been the victim for 8 months of a disinformation campaign willingly engaged in by the dominant national media and the permanent political establishment of both parties, both in and out of government.

    So he fights back. And the disinformation and distortions that are aimed at undermining him are sometimes — oftentimes — met with disinformation and distortions issued by his team.

    I think its unfortunate that our political system has sunk to this level, and that Trump is not capable of being more statesmen-like. But he’s a bare-knuckled brawler when it comes to media wars, and landing blows is more important than throwing them in a fair and respectful manner as political debate should be.

    I have provided a link so that any claim of taking things out of context can be readily evaluated by readers. I believe the author of the above language says later that “I’ll overlook the tactics that get employed to beat-back his opposition given the unique circumstances he’s had to confront.” Those tactics clearly involve disinformation and distortions.

    The author of that language — who was it again, shipwreckedcrew? — endorses immoral tactics as a way to fight back against the left.

    Unless that author thinks that disinformation and distortions aren’t immoral when used to combat disinformation and distortions. But if that is the claim — that’s it’s wrong for me to condemn the endorsement of immoral tactics to respond to immoral tactics, because hey, if you’re responding to immoral tactics, that means your own immoral tactics can be redefined as moral — than I think the argument is both circular, and proves my point for me.

    Patterico (115b1f)

  160. A “walk back” is when you say one thing and then later have to retract part of it.

    OK, this is not a walk back:

    Lesbians are vile. I mean those that have a Hollywood platform. I mean those that are pompous twitter a$$es. I mean Rosie O’Donnell and her ilk — everyone else is fine.

    Patterico, the following is also redundant because I had asked and you ignored:

    119: Tell me, would “most enthusiastic Dole supporters” or “most enthusiastic Newt supporters” back in the day include the Timothy McVeighs of the world?

    138: “The only reason I bring Trump into it is that many Trump supporters who support immoral tactics cite Trump as a reason.”

    Bomb threats, etc? Who exactly, besides those mentioned? Need some evidence, and I’m sure you have it.

    No, this is not evidence:
    If you have never seen such arguments being made, welcome back to reality, I hope you enjoyed your two-year coma.

    random viking (616c92)

  161. Trump is a vulgar, crass, alpha-male brute. But he doesn’t care what SJWs and liberals say about him. He fights, and sometimes fights as dirty as they do.

    That’s a quote from Rod Dreher, cited with approval here by our very own Trumpalo Col. Haiku.

    Patterico (115b1f)

  162. NK will be my sworn enemy until he recants his scurrilous and dastardly slanders against that shining beacon of conservative economic wisdom, Friedrich August von Hayek.
    Dave (9aedfd) — 1/6/2018 @ 12:52 pm

    Thank you for clearing that up for me, Dave. While nk is both, scurrilous and dastardly (;-), and the voice of one crying in the desert, I think you mean “libels,” not “slanders.”

    felipe (023cc9)

  163. Bomb threats, etc? Who exactly, besides those mentioned? Need some evidence, and I’m sure you have it.

    Bomb threats? No. There was a fella ran over a lady with a car in Charlottesville. Now I demand that you produce a leftist who ran over someone with a car at a political rally thrown by leftists, and if you can’t in your next comment, then I win.

    In other words, if you raise the level of generality, then yes, people on the right and people on the left both do the following for political reasons:

    * lie
    * distort
    * cheat
    * threaten
    * attack
    * kill

    I cited shootings at abortion clinics or abortion doctors. That ain’t leftists doing that.

    But you got me, I don’t have any bomb threat examples at my fingertips.

    If you’re unfamiliar with the tendency of the Trump-supporting alt right to be violent and threatening, then again, welcome to reality.

    Patterico (115b1f)

  164. *starts to walk out the door, stops, and turns*

    Oh, just one more thing, shipwreckedcrew:

    Hey! You just performed the “Columbo maneuver!”

    felipe (023cc9)

  165. The author of that language — who was it again, shipwreckedcrew? — endorses immoral tactics as a way to fight back against the left.

    Yeah, just like Trump “praises mass murder”.

    I didn’t see shipwreckedcrew endorse bomb threats, threats against another’s children, etc. which is where you had the “immoral tactics” goalpost in your post, before you moved them.

    random viking (616c92)

  166. random viking, do you deny that there is a variety of Trump supporter that uses the term “he fights” to praise fighting “dirty” including dishonesty?

    Really?

    I mean, I just cited comments to that effect from two Trump supporters who are regular commenters here.

    They rationalize it by saying, hey, the left started it.

    By the way, the leftists who do this stuff all rationalize it by saying the right started it.

    I say it’s time to stop rationalizing bad behavior and strike blows that are hard, but fair.

    Patterico (115b1f)

  167. Now I demand that you produce a leftist who ran over someone with a car at a political rally thrown by leftists, and if you can’t in your next comment, then I win.

    Does it have to be a car?

    AntiFa Assaults Then Laughs At Elderly Woman At Portland Pro Trump #FreeSpeechPDX Rally
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sUsvF_eHBdA

    I have more. Looks like I win, unless you’re a stickler on the car component.

    random viking (616c92)

  168. I didn’t see shipwreckedcrew endorse bomb threats, threats against another’s children, etc. which is where you had the “immoral tactics” goalpost in your post, before you moved them.

    No, of course shipwreckedcrew doesn’t endorse such things. You’re the one moving the goalposts if you’re implying that I have said that every single Trump supporter endorses violence. shipwreckedcrew merely endorsed distortions and disinformation in response to same.

    I just responded to the bomb threats thing. A Trumpalo ran over someone with a car. You’re arguing in a clever but slippery manner by using an overly specific level of generality, but the fact remains that both sides have members that engage in threatening and sometimes even violent tactics.

    f you’re seriously going to claim that no members of the alt-right do not threaten children, I am going to demand that you put up or shut up. Let’s agree to put $100 each in a pot. The challenge: for me to find examples online of Trumpalos threatening children over politics. If I can, I win the $200. If I can’t, you do. I don’t see why I should have to research something this obvious and pervasive for free. You game?

    Didn’t think so.

    Patterico (115b1f)

  169. I have more. Looks like I win, unless you’re a stickler on the car component.

    I am. If you get to be a stickler about bomb threats and only bomb threats, then I get to be a stickler on the car component. Pick your level of generality and stick with it. I win.

    Patterico (115b1f)

  170. 164 – we’ve strayed quite a ways from

    In this sense they are like the most enthusiastic Trumpers, who elevate the virtue of “hitting back” over any sense of morality, ethics, restraint, or proportion. I’m not talking about reluctant Trump voters, or people who don’t like him but think his administration has accomplished some good things. I’m talking about the Cernoviches and Posobiecs of the world: people who believe in outrageous behavior because they are imitating the excesses of the left.

    And that language followed lamenting the tragic death of a man on Kansas as a result of “Swatting”, and the outrageous conduct directed at the family of Ajit Pai.

    The intellectual dishonesty of your comment at 164 — in line with your comment in the OP and at 134 — is to equate and take an acknowledgment of political reality all call it an “endorsement” of what I explicity said was “unfortunate” and lamented that political discourse has sunk to this level AND IDENTIFYING Trump as being tempermentally unable to rise above it.

    But you like your neat little boxes where its Moral Patrick in one box, not to be mingled with all those Trumpers who remain interested in how the country is actually governed and can manage to navigate through the excesses.

    He’s a New York City media star. I always knew that.

    shipwreckedcrew (56b591)

  171. I say it’s time to stop rationalizing bad behavior and strike blows that are hard, but fair.
    Patterico (115b1f) — 1/6/2018 @ 1:24 pm

    I completely agree, but fairness requires the capacity of empathy and a care for justice. Both of which you have displayed repeatedly, as well as other commenters* here.

    *You know who you are.

    felipe (023cc9)

  172. The intellectual dishonesty of your comment at 164 — in line with your comment in the OP and at 134 — is to equate and take an acknowledgment of political reality all call it an “endorsement” of what I explicity said was “unfortunate” and lamented that political discourse has sunk to this level AND IDENTIFYING Trump as being tempermentally unable to rise above it.

    But you like your neat little boxes where its Moral Patrick in one box, not to be mingled with all those Trumpers who remain interested in how the country is actually governed and can manage to navigate through the excesses.

    He’s a New York City media star. I always knew that.

    I disagree with your (increasingly common) accusation of dishonesty on my part. But let’s run with it for a second, for the sake of argument.

    Hey, if it’s dishonesty, it’s in response to dishonesty. That makes it OK in your book, right?

    Patterico (115b1f)

  173. This is a good tweet:

    Patterico (115b1f)

  174. RIP – John Young

    “He and Mercury astronaut Gus Grissom made the first manned Gemini mission in 1965. Unknown to NASA, Young smuggled a corned beef sandwich on board, given to him by Mercury astronaut Wally Schirra. When it came time to test NASA’s official space food, Young handed Grissom the sandwich as a joke.

    The ensuing scandal over that corned beef on rye — two silly minutes of an otherwise triumphant five-hour flight — always amazed Young. Sandwiches already had flown in space, Young said in his book, but NASA brass and Congress considered this one a multimillion-dollar embarrassment and outlawed corned beef sandwiches in space forever after.”

    https://www.yahoo.com/news/nasa-legendary-astronaut-moonwalker-john-young-died-183902895.html

    harkin (a76a32)

  175. It’s not really about, “Well, you know, people are being fooled that he’s not really conservative.” It’s not. I know he’s not a conservative. The fact is, to put it simply, Trump will fight. Not only will he fight, he’ll fight dirty, and the thing is we gotta get that. We have to have someone that’s gonna fight in the mud, ’cause that’s where our opponents are. That’s where our opponents have been.

    caller to Rush Limbaugh, April 2016

    Patterico (115b1f)

  176. But you like your neat little boxes where its Moral Patrick in one box, not to be mingled with all those Trumpers who remain interested in how the country is actually governed and can manage to navigate through the excesses.

    In the Trump era, it’s “virtue signaling” to argue that Our Side Should Not Lie.

    Patterico (115b1f)

  177. *You know who you are.

    Some know who they are, even though they aren’t.

    Patterico (115b1f)

  178. R.I.P. John Young, Commander, Apollo 16; 9th man to walk on the moon and commander, STS-1, first space shuttle flight

    Damn.

    John’s spaceflight experience is easily searched out, having flown in two nearly forgotten yet essential Gemini missions, two Apollo missions to the moon (one a nearly aborted landing at Luna’s Decartes Highlands) and commanded two space shuttle missions: STS-1 and STS-9.

    John was a truly a fine man with a laconic style, rye wit, a great sense of humor and most importantly, a stellar aviator. Condolences to Susy, his second and devoted wife; a wonderful woman. John was a close friend of a long time NASA contact of mine and literally was ‘the astronaut’s astronaut.’ Among the more memorable publicly known stories of John was his smuggling of a corned beef sandwich aboard Gemini 3 to share- much to the surprise of his companion, Gus Grissom. And his ‘Lunar Olympics’ jump while saluting the U.S. flag during the April, 1972 Apollo 16 mission remains an iconic image and humorous piece of television– a moment capped off by NASA informing him Congress had passed the budget for the space shuttle– its first flight he’d command nine years later.

    John was a ‘government man’ all the way, too. Many years back I’d passed along a gift to him through my friend and he told me Young could not accept it directly– government rules- so his wife pulled $10 out of her purse, handed it to my friend who handed it back to her. The gift was in his office for years and in my office hangs a personalized gift in return– a photo of John framed up– frozen in time and space– doing his Olympic jump; a prized possession.

    Now there are just five Apollo moonwalkers left with us: 11’s Buzz Aldrin, 12’s Alan Bean, 15’s Dave Scott, 16’s Charlie Duke and 17’s Jack Schmitt. I’m deeply saddened to learn of John’s passing. And sadder still to know it may be left to a total buffoon like Donald Trump to honor those surviving Apollo crews on July 20, 2019, who actually did make America great again.

    Ad Astra, John. Ad Astra– to the stars.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  179. They should serve corned beef on rye sandwiches on SpaceShipOne.

    felipe (023cc9)

  180. Intellectual dishonesty is not the same as factual dishonesty. I’m not calling you a liar – I’m challenging your use of disingenuous form of argument that might be referred to colloquially as “moving the goal posts”, or your practice that I’ve pointed out many times of including a small caveat in an otherwise declarative agrument, and then accusing challengers of mischaracterizing your comment because you left yourself a bit or room to maneuver that they didn’t acknowledge. That’s called “having it both ways.”

    And I note your election to not challenge my claim that you mischaracterized my acknowledgment of a decline in political discourse — calling out Trump as a willing participant in such — as an “endorsement” of the decline in political discourse and of Trump’s conduct.

    shipwreckedcrew (56b591)

  181. 181 — no, but it is living in a bubble.

    shipwreckedcrew (56b591)

  182. I’ll be up front: I have no respect for those who argue that we should lie as part of our political advocacy.

    I’m just going to take a moment to relish the fact that shipwreckedcrew called me “dishonest” for saying that some Trumpers use the phrase “he fights” to support immoral behavior by Trump — and then I published a comment by shipwreckedcrew in which he used the phrase “he fights” to support immoral behavior by Trump.

    I mean, that’s some pretty damned fine irony, if I do say so my damned self.

    Patterico (115b1f)

  183. @163-RIP Jerry van Dyke.

    ‘My Mother The Car’— worst television series ever.

    Hell-of-an-epitaph.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  184. And if you carry forward your morality play, the end result is that Trump would be run out of office by an endless disinformation campaign waged against him 24/7/365.

    He’s like a Tiger Tamer with a whip and a chair. If he doesn’t make contact now and then, the Tigers lose their fear of the sting of the whip.

    shipwreckedcrew (56b591)

  185. And I note your election to not challenge my claim that you mischaracterized my acknowledgment of a decline in political discourse — calling out Trump as a willing participant in such — as an “endorsement” of the decline in political discourse and of Trump’s conduct.

    LOL. Re-read your comment. You weren’t “calling out” Trump. That’s the point. You were supporting his dishonesty.

    So he fights back. And the disinformation and distortions that are aimed at undermining him are sometimes — oftentimes — met with disinformation and distortions issued by his team.

    I think its unfortunate that our political system has sunk to this level, and that Trump is not capable of being more statesmen-like. But he’s a bare-knuckled brawler when it comes to media wars, and landing blows is more important than throwing them in a fair and respectful manner as political debate should be.

    But it is my firm opinion that he didn’t establish the ground-rules for his fight with the media and the permanent political establishment — they came after him with everything they have.

    I want him to be successful not for his sake, but for the benefit of the country. So I’ll defend him when I think he’s on the right path, and I’ll overlook the tactics that get employed to beat-back his opposition given the unique circumstances he’s had to confront.

    Let’s summarize. He uses disinformation and distortion. But landing blows is more important than fairness, and so I’ll overlook the tactics of disinformation and distortion.

    That is a fair summary of your own words, which you wrote.

    Now you’re pulling a Trump by taking something you said and denying it happened, even though we all just watched it happen. We’re not stupid. We know how to read.

    Yes, you said it’s “unfortunate” that we’ve come to the point where you have to support your guy lying. But you supported your guy lying. And now you’re lying about it, pretending you called him out, when instead you rationalized it.

    I have zero respect for this.

    Patterico (115b1f)

  186. “Alyssa Milano
    @Alyssa_Milano
    Just made the mistake of reading all of @realDonaldTrump’s tweets from the last few days.

    I’m now curled up in the fetal position with an Cinderella tiara on my head.

    Also, my feet are cold. So very cold”

    harkin (a76a32)

  187. “…….worst television series ever.”

    I Married Joan made Mi Madre El Auto look like I, Claudius.

    harkin (a76a32)

  188. So he fights back. And the disinformation and distortions that are aimed at undermining him are sometimes — oftentimes — met with disinformation and distortions issued by his team.

    I think its unfortunate that our political system has sunk to this level, and that Trump is not capable of being more statesmen-like. But he’s a bare-knuckled brawler when it comes to media wars, and landing blows is more important than throwing them in a fair and respectful manner as political debate should be.

    Bill Shipley:
    I think its unfortunate that our political system has sunk to this level.
    I think its unfortunate that Trump is not able to be more statesman-like.
    Throwing blows in a fair and respectful manner is the way political debate should be.

    Patrick Frey:
    Bill Shipley endorses immoral behavior

    I put my name to it.
    I’ll let the readers decide who is being intellectually honest.

    shipwreckedcrew (56b591)

  189. peeky peeky Ajit i see you hey you hungry for a pizza

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  190. There are no “good” tweets. It’s a fvcking world of narcissistic morons who are off their rockers.

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  191. And I note your election to not challenge my claim that you mischaracterized my acknowledgment of a decline in political discourse — calling out Trump as a willing participant in such — as an “endorsement” of the decline in political discourse and of Trump’s conduct.

    You did not endorse the decline in political discourse. You lamented it. But given that fact, you endorsed Trump’s dishonest conduct. Those are two different things. You made clear they were two different things, and that you lamented one and supported the other.

    Now you’re using your language lamenting the decline in political discourse to pretend that you condemned Trump’s lying. And you’re suggesting that I am being dishonest for demonstrating it.

    I’m not going back and forth on this any further. Your own words hang you.

    This is what you get when you endorse dishonesty and then accuse an honest person of dishonesty. The honest person researches the matter, and shows you to be immoral, dishonest, and a hypocrite.

    You bought the ticket. I hope you enjoyed the ride.

    Patterico (115b1f)

  192. There are no “good” tweets. It’s a fvcking world of narcissistic morons who are off their rockers.

    Except of course President Donald J. Trump.

    Patterico (115b1f)

  193. Oops, make that SpaceShipTwo!

    felipe (023cc9)

  194. Beware the moors and grab some garlic, Patterico’s afoot. And he’s thirsting for blood.

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  195. All who use Twitter are lesser for it. Fvcking narcissistic nitwits.

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  196. Beware the moors and grab some garlic, Patterico’s afoot. And he’s thirsting for blood.

    You don’t seem happy here. Let’s see if a one-week vacation from the comment section makes the heart grow fonder.

    As much as I enjoy your insults, I think I’ll enjoy their absence even more.

    Patterico (115b1f)

  197. Possibly like NJRob, I can remember using telnet, ftp, various chat programs, irc, and gopher, *all* before the invention of the web. I initially thought the web was a fad and that gopher would win the day.

    aphrael (3f0569) — 1/6/2018 @ 11:41 am

    That’s exactly what I remember.

    NJRob (1ca9bb)

  198. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=icayHrkoBvc

    A salute: moon jump.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  199. The Colonel responds in moderation to my giving him a one-week vacation with this:

    Make it permanent. You are off the deepest end.

    Sounds good to me, buddy, but it’ll have to be your choice.

    Literally all you did here any more was write unhappy comments about how I wasn’t smooching the man-child’s posterior with sufficient enthusiasm to satisfy you. It was one personal and negative comment after another. I don’t need persistent negativity in my life.

    So in one week, I’ll unmoderate you again. If you choose to stop leaving comments, hooray. It’s win win. If you insult me again, it will be another one-week vacation, and so on, and so on.

    If you’re sincere about making it permanent, go ahead. One less negative thing in my life.

    I extend an open invitation to anyone else whose comments are a never-ending stream of negativity to pack up and go elsewhere. I write compulsively and will probably continue even if I have only five readers. I started with very few and I can go out with very few. Your threats, promises, or actions in leaving will only make me happy. Why on earth would you stay at a blog where you have literally nothing positive to say, ever? I really don’t get it.

    Colonel, I’m filtering emails from your email address so I don’t see them. Again, if you want to make the vacation permanent, that will have to be your choice, if only so you don’t get to go around bragging about how you were banned. But if you think you’ll be missed by me, think again. The notion that I never have to hear from you again sounds pretty damned fine right about now.

    Patterico (115b1f)

  200. And how did she feel about Harvey weinstein, so these esteemed gentleman of the bar in Los Angeles, did they commiserate with your plight, we see the bureau wasnt interested and I’m beginning to guess why because your pursuer had things wired

    narciso (d1f714)

  201. @192– Best thing out of ‘Car’ was Jack Davis’ promo art.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  202. Mr. Colonel’s passionate about America and making it more better that’s why he likes President Trump.

    After eight years of food stamp i think Mr. Colonel was ready to embrace a positive change and I think he’s embraced our president, President Trump, in that spirit.

    When Mr. Colonel does criticize on people what are doing a drumbeat of vituperation on President Trump, it’s just cause of he sees the glass half full – that President Trump is moving America forward in significant and meaningful ways, ending the obama period of decline, stagnation, and self-abasement.

    This is why I think he’s more positive-minded than perhaps he’s given credit for being sometimes.

    I’ll miss him if he goes that’s for sure.

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  203. I remember watching the jumping salute as young kid (age 8) and the first shuttle launch in college (age 17).

    According to his NASA biography page, Young logged almost 3 years of flying time during his career…

    Dave (9aedfd)

  204. @207. Mr. Feet: =Haiku!= Gesundheit!

    Would miss him, too; he keeps my sinuses clear.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  205. Mr. Colonel’s passionate about America and making it more better that’s why he likes President Trump.

    After eight years of food stamp i think Mr. Colonel was ready to embrace a positive change and I think he’s embraced our president, President Trump, in that spirit.

    When Mr. Colonel does criticize on people what are doing a drumbeat of vituperation on President Trump, it’s just cause of he sees the glass half full – that President Trump is moving America forward in significant and meaningful ways, ending the obama period of decline, stagnation, and self-abasement.

    This is why I think he’s more positive-minded than perhaps he’s given credit for being sometimes.

    I’ll miss him if he goes that’s for sure.

    There’s different ways to express that the glass is half full.

    One is to say “I think the glass is half full.”

    Another is to say “I guess the host here is going to continue being annoying by not recognizing that the glass is half full. I think I will mock him some as a result.”

    His choice if he wants to be back in a week.

    Asking my commenters not to insult me is actually a pretty minimal request.

    Patterico (115b1f)

  206. @208. He was the best all-around astronaut NASA had in the era he served, experienced in the vital programs of the times, connected well w/NASA management and knew the ins and outs of navigating the bureaucracy. ‘The Astronauts Wives Club’ may hold him to a different standard given the divorce.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  207. I thought blaming the victim of a swatting, hypothetically, was showing disteapect but what do i knows,growing up In south Florida, and going to school with so e talented folks but also my share of bullies, yes no one gang a farthing about that now. I know the type.

    narciso (d1f714)

  208. Things the Host Does Not Like:

    1. Being directly insulted
    2. Being called dishonest

    There may be more, but this is a pretty basic list. In the Trump era, this might be a difficult list to comply with, as rudeness, dishonesty, and infinite aggression are the praiseworthy norm.

    In the past, these minimal standards were simple for one and all.

    Patterico (115b1f)

  209. In the category of what are they thinking, they are carting Ryan gosling as Neil aArmstrong.As a space exploration and astronomy buff I was a fan of Von braun, his CV came as a surprise, as did the us goats efforts on his behalf.

    narciso (d1f714)

  210. 190: Ok – you want to debate the comment from 6 months ago?? Let’s parse out the entire exchange in the context with which it was written from start to finish:

    It came under an OP captioned “Stephen Hayes: Trump Caved to Putin”, which came in the aftermath of the G20 summit, where Putin made a comment to Trump before the gathered press corps “These are the ones who insulted you?”

    Part of Hayes story concerned comments made after the meeting by Tillerson concerning Syria, which Beldar called out in the comments as a blatantly unfair characterization of what Tillerson actually said based on the full transcript of his remarks, in which he made the comment “the objectives of the US and Russia in Syria are the same.” I fully endorsed Beldar’s comment, and also in my comment at 72 that in the OP you had based your agreement with Hayes’ partly on the ASSUMPTION that Putin’s statement to Trump had come AFTER the two had met in private, and they had “bonded” over “fake news.” This point was made by you – and was a point of disagreement in the comments between us — in an earlier post that came before the summit, linking a NYT story expressing a “fear” the two might “bond” over that issue.

    In response to the part of my comment at 72 about Putin’s comment having been made before the meeting, you posted at 74 that you would correct your OP if I provided you a link to show the comment was made before their meeting — i.e., before they could have “bonded”.

    Then at 75 your wrote: “So far the number of links you have provided to substantiate your assertion is zero. Plenty of assertion, zero links.”

    At 77 I responded by saying a simple google search on my phone of “Putin comment reporters insult Trump” brought up numerous stories on the meeting, with Putin’s comment in Russian having been translated by Jim Scuitto at CNN, noting that the exchange came during a photo op which took place prior to their 2 hour meeting. I expressed some displeasure at the “give me a link” crap given that I think there’s not much of a basis in the record over a decade here of me making up facts out of whole-cloth – or assuming the timing of a comment without having a basis for doing so.

    At 92 you came back and acknowledged I was correct, and that you would post an update and correction the next morning, which you did. But that wasn’t enough for you – in addition to acknowledging your error, you put in an argument that your error was really meaningless to the central point of the OP, and Trump and Putin probably bonded over the press issue during the meeting as well.

    No proof of that, but hey, why concern yourself with facts when you get to decide which ones really matter and which ones don’t.

    Harkin came in at 127 with a “pat on the back” for having pushed to get the ACCURATE facts out.

    The comment you link here, which is the subject of this most recent “debate” between us, was in response to Harkin’s comment – not in response to anything you wrote.

    As is clear from the text of the comment, it attempted to give a bit of the backstory on where you and I parted ways over the issue of the 2016 election and Trump, after many many years of seeing eye-to-eye on most subjects. It had nothing to do with any kind of debate over an endorsement of “immoral activities”.

    And the context that is missing is the reference to your snark at 77 — “So far the number of links you have provided to substantiate your assertion is zero. Plenty of assertion, zero links.”

    Although you provided a link to my comment in that July 2017 thread, you left out the first paragraph where I made reference to that snark in your cut and paste of the comment.

    I’ll close with this – another Patterico mischaracterization:

    I think where Patrick and I simply have a fundamental disagreement is I put a lot of stock in the fact that Trump — while not great politician or statesmen, and a guy who is attempting to execute the job of being President pretty much by the seat of his pants when his history in that regard isn’t very comforting — has been the victim for 8 months of a disinformation campaign willingly engaged in by the dominant national media and the permanent political establishment of both parties, both in and out of government.

    So he fights back. And the disinformation and distortions that are aimed at undermining him are sometimes — oftentimes — met with disinformation and distortions issued by his team.

    You chose to emphasize with bold the words “he fights”, rather than what I wrote which was “So he fights back”, which relates back to the end of the previous paragraph where I said he Presidency has been the subject of a nonstop disinformation campaign for 8 months by both the media and the political establishment of both parties.

    Again, it was a statement of declarative fact, not an endorsement of the tactics he’s employed.

    You mischaracterized it as an endorsement as guided to do so by your TDS.

    shipwreckedcrew (56b591)

  211. Now down in south Florida when job was developer, that entailed dealing with some folks. You woulfnt invite to dinner, at least one embezzler one hmo scanner and one midlevel importer.

    narciso (d1f714)

  212. Literally all you did here any more was write unhappy comments about how I wasn’t smooching the man-child’s posterior with sufficient enthusiasm to satisfy you.”

    You really believe this?

    harkin (a76a32)

  213. @214. In the category of what are they thinking, they are casting Ryan Gosling as Neil Armstrong…

    What’s worse, he a Canadian.

    Passed that nugget of casting stupidity along to some old H’wood contacts. Producers are oblivious and could care less; it’s a bought project sold to be made for $. Read ‘First Man’ and you’ll see why this ‘biopic’ is doomed. Met Armstrong; in his life he displayed the emotions of a potato which served him well as an aviator and even a vegetable like Gosling can’t pull that off as entertaining. Aldrin… or the life of Von Braun or Lindbergh [ both previously done but due for better remakes] would make for much richer material to work with.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  214. Well the Canadian bit is superflous, there was a fellow in college who could have easily blended in, but he was very earnest from my recollection, Purdue his alma matter has gone totally ssow.in that series timeless, there was someone who I think carried of the part of Von braun well, if the army used paperclip to bring in their clutch of scientists, the CIA did as well with some of the folks admitted under the lodge act, that my friend. CLarice hunted down nearly 40 years later.

    narciso (d1f714)

  215. Trump is perfectly happy to use lies and distortions even when he’s not being attacked. See his support for birtherism and his “millions of illegal votes.”

    Trump lies like he breathes.

    Davethulhu (99cc74)

  216. Ok – you want to debate the comment from 6 months ago?

    No. You’re very bad at reading. These are the words: “I’m not going back and forth on this any further. Your own words hang you.” The end.

    Patterico (115b1f)

  217. Watch the “From the Earth to the Moon” miniseries. I can’t recommend it highly enough.

    Davethulhu (99cc74)

  218. You really believe this?

    If the comment related to me in any way, yes.

    Patterico (115b1f)

  219. Wish we could all get together and break bread.

    mg (8cbc69)

  220. Wish we could all get together and break bread.

    Yup. People get more accustomed to engaging in rudeness online.

    Patterico (115b1f)

  221. “Literally all you did here any more was write unhappy comments about how I wasn’t smooching the man-child’s posterior with sufficient enthusiasm to satisfy you.”

    “You really believe this?”

    If the comment related to me in any way, yes.

    Could you cite the best example of CH literally saying you don’t kiss Trump’s posterior with sufficient enthusiasm?

    harkin (a76a32)

  222. Could you cite the best example of CH literally saying you don’t kiss Trump’s posterior with sufficient enthusiasm?

    No. That is my colorful way of saying he bitches about how I don’t like Trump. The “literally” applies to that being ALL he would say about me. There was never a positive comment about me. It was 100% negativity.

    Patterico (115b1f)

  223. @219. Curt Jurgens did VB in ‘I Aim At the Stars’ but the story was more marketing fantasy for the period and the flick a dull dud.Good one and half-sheet art, though.

    The Paperclip back story is intriguing and would make for a good film\– especially when you view cozy images of VB w/Ike or VB w/JFK or LBJ, conferring. Kurt Debus, who ran the Kennedy Space Center, was SS; Arthur Rudolph a Nazi as well, who oversaw the Saturn program for VB in Huntsville. Dornberger was a ‘sour kraut’ too. When NASA began clearing out ‘the Germans’ post-Apollo and FOIA inquiries began to unseal the Paperclip files in the mid-80s, the jig was up. VB, Debus and Dornberger died before they could be fully outted but Rudolph was hounded out of the country and in a deal, renounced his U.S. citizenship and fled back to Germany where he died.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  224. 221 — I typed that before seeing your “pull the cord” post.

    Typical when you tire of being pointed out for being wrong.

    shipwreckedcrew (56b591)

  225. My intent is to abandon this scintillating 359th round of “we don’t like Patterico’s attitude towards Donald John Trump” for anything else in the world. If I do not respond to your comment, that is why. Thank you.

    Patterico (115b1f)

  226. Trump lies like he breathes.

    All hyperbole aside, the man is bat. sh*t. crazy.

    He is convinced – beyond any possibility of doubt – that he is infallible.

    His entire view of the world is not just colored, but created, by his need to preserve that delusion.

    Nothing – nothing – that goes wrong is his fault.

    The only flaws he will admit are being too kind, too generous and too trusting to a world unworthy of him.

    Dave (9aedfd)

  227. That was a general comment, not directed to swc’s 229, which I had not seen. But as to that, my attitude is that there is nothing more to say. swc, I quoted the language where you defended Trump’s decision to lie to the public, and I will not spend the day repeating it. If you want to declare that means you won, go ahead. It’s not so, and anyone who reads your comment knows it. You supported dishonesty, and you’re going to have to live with what you wrote.

    Patterico (115b1f)

  228. @222.Watch the “From the Earth to the Moon” miniseries. I can’t recommend it highly enough.

    Yes. Stellar. Accurate, too. Scott and Aldrin were technical advisors; Hanks and crew did an outstanding job getting it right. Attended the premiere in Hollywood many years ago. Among the more amusing conversations was w/a costume designer who told me she was perplexed by the ‘pieces of cork’ all over some of the earlier spacesuits she saw in museums as she was designing new ones for the series–turns out what she thought was ‘cork’ was actually aged and disintegrating pieces of elastic.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  229. “Trump lies like he breathes.

    All hyperbole aside, the man is bat. sh*t. crazy.

    He is convinced – beyond any possibility of doubt – that he is infallible.”

    Next thing you know he’ll be claiming he can slow the ocean’s rise.

    At least they won’t give him a Nobel Prize for doing absolutely nothing, that would just enhance his delusion that he can do no wrong.

    harkin (a76a32)

  230. Sure hoping Trump does not tweet these two statements out within minutes of one another….

    “As much as I enjoy your insults,”

    …and

    “Things the Host Does Not Like:

    1. Being directly insulted“

    The netroots would crucify him for that, probably call him mentally imbalanced.

    harkin (a76a32)

  231. ‘Trump is a liar buhbuhbuh Obama.’

    Sounds a whole lot like Obama’s sychophants for eight tedious years. But Boosh justified every broken promise and failure.

    This is why character matters.

    Dustin (ba94b2)

  232. “Sounds a whole lot like Obama’s sychophants for eight tedious years..”

    Thank you so much for helping make my point. Trump is not an outlier, he’s a continuation.

    harkin (a76a32)

  233. I don’t think Patterico actually enjoys being insulted.

    Davethulhu (99cc74)

  234. A side effect is that Trump’s view of the truth is qualitatively different from a sane person’s.

    Normal, sane people rationalize their bad behavior; the very act of rationalization is tacit acknowledgement of the their error. We did something wrong, but it’s understandable, or justifiable, or just this once, or … whatever.

    Trump, on the other hand, is Orwellian. The truth is anything that glorifies or exalts him. A lie is anything that exposes his imperfection. The factuality of what is said about him is irrelevant in either case. In his world, a negative statement about him cannot, even in principle, be truthful.

    And, of course, this “operational” definition of the truth extends to his own statements about others. He has absolutely no problem saying completely contradictory things in the same breath, if the lie suits his purposes.

    Take this moronic claim from the two-minutes hate against the media during his campaign rally last month:

    “They’re saying sorry – they’ve been doing that all year. They never apologize.”

    So, the media have been saying they’re sorry all year AND they never apologize. The bastards!

    In other news, the chocolate ration has been raised to 20 grams a week, and we have always been at war with Eastasia…

    Dave (9aedfd)

  235. It’s a mental death spiral to get fixated on Trump “lying.” You’ll just give yourself ulcers. He’s been hyping and bullsh-tting his way through adult life since the Reagan era rewarded him for doing same, long before NBC rewarded him w/t ‘Apprentice.’ Straphangers in the 80’s would endure him four out of five days a week on Page Six of the NY Post and as many days a week on local metro NY TV and radio. He was in the rotation w/Helmsley, Steinbrenner, Billy, Reggie and Yogi. Dumping Ivana for the ‘Georgia Peach’ was front page news for months. So the ‘new Donald’ is old news– especially to NYers.

    He’s just a show and Season One is in the can. Enjoy the entertainment– and make more popcorn; ‘The State Of The Zoonion’ episode of Trumpland premieres Season Two, January 30!

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  236. In this sense they are like the most enthusiastic Trumpers, who elevate the virtue of “hitting back” over any sense of morality, ethics, restraint, or proportion. I’m not talking about reluctant Trump voters, or people who don’t like him but think his administration has accomplished some good things. I’m talking about the Cernoviches and Posobiecs of the world: people who believe in outrageous behavior because they are imitating the excesses of the left.

    You don’t call the people harassing Pai “Obamanites” so why is Trump responsible for every excess of the right. And if there was similar harassment of Obama appointees I would like a reference.

    James B. Shearer (951d11)

  237. PAT, What could DJT do to win you over?

    EPWJ (4dc563)

  238. “You don’t call the people harassing Pai “Obamanites” so why is Trump responsible for every excess of the right. And if there was similar harassment of Obama appointees I would like a reference.

    Pretty much.

    harkin (a76a32)

  239. OT: Kansas City in shock.

    harkin (a76a32)

  240. It all adds up to ten words: Donald Trump is not a President to be proud of.

    nk (dbc370)

  241. “Typical when you tire of being pointed out for being wrong.“

    – shipwreckedcrew

    My impression is that you have way more time on your hands than Patterico does – typical of the Federal/state prosecutorial divide, in my experience.

    Or are you retired, at this point?

    Leviticus (b94909)

  242. Next thing you know he’ll be claiming he can slow the ocean’s rise.

    If one accepts that human activity contributes to the rise of the oceans, why is it unreasonable to imagine that the opposite effect can also occur?

    I realize you may reject the premise, but it is hardly outside the mainstream of scientific thought. Human activity MUST affect the climate to some degree, and there is undisputed historical proof that the climate in turn affects sea levels. The legitimate question is not whether human activity affects the climate (and sea levels), but how much.

    In any case, Obama did not even suggest reversing the ocean’s rise, but merely slowing it.

    Slowing the rate of rise (as opposed to reversing it) is not hard to accomplish at all. If you do ANYTHING that would tend to warm the planet less (walking to work one day instead of driving, lowering your thermostat by one degree for an hour, turning off the porch light, etc), the rate of rise of the oceans will, in fact, be slowed.

    …by an immeasurably small amount, of course, but it still illustrates why Obama’s suggestion is not a priori unreasonable.

    Dave (9aedfd)

  243. They need to be a #6 seed as in on road all playoff games to have a chance.

    urbanleftbehind (1d75fb)

  244. ActualLy there hasn’t been any appreciable warming in 20 years, it wee an excuse to get rid of the traditional light bulb and replace it with the weak toxic mercury bulb. To make lighter cars that lead to more fatalities, and to feed an never ending string of solyndras.

    narciso (d1f714)

  245. PAT, What could DJT do to win you over?
    EPWJ (4dc563) — 1/6/2018 @ 4:36 pm

    Yikes! “win you over,” that could mean anything. From acknowledging that DJT has done something good (P has done so several times) to “I’ll forgive him anything and everything (snowball in Gehenna)!” But you prolly meant somewhere in the middle.

    “What will it take for you to buy today?” – salesman’s pitch.

    felipe (023cc9)

  246. Just like Christine was the Doe eyed demon, right dustin, one can have a difference of opinion not focusing on the same laser pointer carp that the journalist cares about,

    narciso (d1f714)

  247. Cromwell didn’t have much in the way of writings and of course ill machia wouldn’t dare challenge Cosmo so one thanks of wolfs bildungsroman, like a poor copy of this:
    https://sourcebooks.fordham.edu/basis/procop-anec.asp

    narciso (d1f714)

  248. 244-harkin
    Titans O-Line with stellar run blocking

    mg (8cbc69)

  249. never ending string of solyndras

    Solyndra went bankrupt in 2011, what were the next companies in the chain?

    Davethulhu (99cc74)

  250. “Next thing you know he’ll be claiming he can slow the ocean’s rise.”

    “In any case, Obama did not even suggest reversing the ocean’s rise, but merely slowing it.”

    What I said.

    I’d be more tolerant of the left’s science claims if they called out the legion of frauds they rely on for so much.

    From Al Gore erasing his claim that the North Pole would no longer have summer ice by 2014 to Michael ‘Hockey Stick’ Mann being told by the Nobel Committee to quit claiming he won the Nobel Prize, you’ll have to come up with better reasons to turn a trillion dollars in US taxes over to the UN and its enablers.

    A few examples of very bad science:

    https://www.google.com/amp/s/wattsupwiththat.com/2017/10/30/some-failed-climate-predictions/amp/

    harkin (a76a32)

  251. Titans O-Line with stellar run blocking

    The loss of Kelse was huge.

    harkin (a76a32)

  252. Only procopius wrote that tome twenty years later, after the encomiums. And he didn’t use a scribe. Its more like Stanley Hilton, one time factotum for dole who issued a poison pen just inntime for the 1996 election. Now is there any substantive criticism, particularly since he was blamed for the roll out of the immigration pause

    narciso (d1f714)

  253. I can dig it, HF. But that is easy to say since you were not insulted. Maybe he was the anchovy (I like anchovies) on the pizza that is this site’s comment section, but I saw him as Steve McQueen in The great escape*. He’s in the cooler now. See you in a week, Colonel.

    * Or maybe Sylvester Stallone in Victory. YMMV.

    felipe (023cc9)

  254. You don’t call the people harassing Pai “Obamanites” so why is Trump responsible for every excess of the right.

    Because the left has always (or least for the last 20 years or so) used immorality and dishonesty to advance its agenda. Obama brought nothing new to the table in this regard – indeed, in 2008 Obama’s campaign was atypically (for a Democrat) positive and consciously aimed to be uplifting, although he reverted to a more traditional approach in 2012.

    The avowed, accepted and systematic use of immoral and dishonest tactics by the Republican party, on the other hand, is an innovation introduced within the most recent election cycle by Donald J. Trump, and is in the process of being rationalized and normalized by what Patrick calls “his most enthusiastic” [cultists].

    The GOP has not always fought like Boy Scouts, to be sure. Nixon, for instance, succumbed to a similar “ends justify the means” temptation, and he was decisively – and properly – repudiated by the party. But since then, at least at the national level, I think Republicans have set themselves apart from Democrats by giving character its due. Until Donald Trump came along…

    Dave (9aedfd)

  255. Yrs Nixon wasnt paranoid enough, the fact he had unveiled an actual traitor on the democrat front ranks a little like kendall Myers (the last was in the pay of the Cuban govt for 30 years) wasnt forgiven just like with this modern day ware ring, like the abedin nasseef and associates

    narciso (d1f714)

  256. Indeed, harkin.

    mg (8cbc69)

  257. @179. True facts: moon methane; evidence of lunar outgassing released:

    John Young breaking wind with a hot mike:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uuv6TVv0r44

    Farting on the moon; one giant =bleep= for mankind…

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  258. http://www.cnn.com/2008/LIVING/wayoflife/08/22/mf.campaign.slurs.slogans/

    John Adams and Thomas Jefferson fought as well. Should we reconsider how we look at them?

    NJRob (1ca9bb)


  259. I think Republicans have set themselves apart from Democrats by giving character its due.

    I agree. And America kept moving more and more left. It takes a lot of character to watch commies ruin education, take over the media, manufacture filth and garbage in entertainment, serve up anti American racist bilge in the NFL, keep planned parenthood killing babies and doing it with tax money, ending the meaning of marriage, infiltrating the military with transgendered nut jobs, calling men women because they say they are regardless of truth and honesty, stacking the judiciary with leftist thugs, watching as unassimilable immigrants are brought in strictly to become democrat voters and de-whiten America, wasting tax money on international climate schemes and all the while using Lawfare against republicans, conservatives, Christians and any political opponents by using our own government agencies against the people. That’s a boat load of character I must say.

    Rev.Hoagie (6bbda7)

  260. there’s nothing wrong with Mr. trump’s character he’s quintessentially American

    hard-working and disciplined

    ambitious

    brash and decisive

    he knows his own mind and he respects individualism

    he respects freedom and he respects the right a pikachu has to the pursuit of happiness

    he’s beautiful and if you raise your kid to be like Donald Trump, America thanks you

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  261. Too much hyperventilating over things of little significance or little veracity, where he has had the power to change things like the Rhodes fatwa, the Paris sell out, the deal with the Castro’s he has, now curtailing the mire extreme acts of the alawi ruling clique with little cost, was just gravy.

    narciso (d1f714)

  262. Levitcus — it’s a Saturday. I don’t work for the feds any longer. I’m self-employed so my time is my own. I’d invite you to sit in my study and watch me work at 4:00 am most mornings if you ever find yourself in Hawaii.

    shipwreckedcrew (56b591)

  263. Media Matters Funding Sexual Assault Witch Hunt on Republicans

    As reported by Kenneth Vogel in The New York Times, political partisans are “raising hundreds of thousands of dollars to support abusers who come forward with charges against President Trump and members of Congress.”

    One of those partisans is American Bridge 21st Century Foundation, which gave Lisa Bloom, attorney and daughter of activist lawyer Gloria Allred, $200,000 to fund Trump’s accusers. The organization was founded by Media Matters’ David Brock and says it will possibly create an ongoing fund “to encourage victims to bring forward similar claims against Republican politicians,” Vogel reported.

    They see me rollin
    They hatin
    Patrollin
    they tryin to catch me
    ridin’ dirty
    Tryin to catch me ridin’ dirty
    Tryin to catch me ridin’ dirty
    Tryin to catch me ridin’ dirty
    Tryin to catch me ridin’ dirty

    Journalist Describes How Fusion GPS Smeared Him as a ‘Pedophile,’ ‘Extortionist’ and ‘Drug Trafficker’

    The shady, liberal opposition research firm behind the discredited anti-Trump dossier uses smear tactics and intimidation to discredit people who go against its clients, a London-based Venezuelan journalist told Fox News Thursday.

    In congressional testimony as well, Alek Boyd said Fusion GPS labeled him a “pedophile,” “extortionist” and “drug trafficker” after he criticized Derwick Associates, one of its clients.

    “I believe that Fusion GPS’s business is to do basically whatever the paymasters tell them to do,” Boyd said in his first American TV interview. “They are particularly good at spreading misinformation, disinformation and smears.”

    Human rights activist Thor Halvorssen told a similar story last July, when he submitted statements to the Judiciary Committee describing for the record how the firm went after him for whistle-blowing against Derwick.

    “Imagine waking up one day and seeing a headline in a fringe website that says that I’m a neocon scam artist and then you read the actual article and it says that I — there in some Facebook posts and Twitter posts that they put out — it says falsely says that I sleep with children, it says that I’m a heroin addict, it says that I’ve been to rehab, it says that I’m an embezzler,” Halvorssen told Fox news’ Tucker Carlson last summer.

    He said that it’s a “company that sells itself to the highest bidder to bring together smear campaigns and to try and destroy honest, good people who are going against their clients.”

    I’m thinking about that incident with Mrs. Anderson’s house burning down.
    What if she were offered a bunch of money to accuse Roy Moore “the serial datists”, but when the con worked the Dems refused to pay up?
    What if instead they burned her house down?

    That would be in keeping with their character, and because of the nature of their association, Mrs Anderson would be highly unlikely to bring any charges.
    Force multiplier with no splash back.

    papertiger (c8116c)

  264. And by the way, there isn’t a gossamer shade of comparison between the way Trump fights and the way Democrats fight.

    papertiger (c8116c)

  265. And after #269 above anyone worried about republicans and their character needs a head doctor.

    Rev.Hoagie (6bbda7)

  266. And halvorsen has been doing his bit, taking up where his father left off, for the last 25 years. Derrick partners also laundered their cash in south Florida real estate, can’t imagine Mueller would be interested in that.

    narciso (d1f714)

  267. They are only looking out for our best interests:
    http://ktla.com/2018/01/06/hotel-staff-interacted-with-las-vegas-shooter-more-than-10-times-in-days-before-massacre

    That’s why they won’t come up with a motive till late in the ywar

    narciso (d1f714)

  268. So was Cash for Clunkers the seminal event in the cars to West Africa trade or the Obama administration doing the job of getting the cars to the dock?

    urbanleftbehind (1d75fb)

  269. Its an intriguing question isn’t it, if you saw act of valor, you’ll note some similarities with act of valor, I notedat. one west African mogul, was exonerated by the same judge that is presiding over the swan bros case

    narciso (d1f714)

  270. Yes that was repetitive, alqueda more likely the chechen emirate was funding their opweations through a smuggling in Latin America, that shipped their product to Africa.

    narciso (d1f714)

  271. Nice how Hoagie shifted from “browning of America” to “de-whitening of America.” I can’t tell whether that is getting closer to his real grievance or further from it. I suspect the former.

    Leviticus (b94909)

  272. I would say De westernizing but you evade the point, the campuses a quarter century said ‘western culture has got to go’ they mostly succeeded in that.

    narciso (21eb6d)

  273. shipwreckedcrew – What Island?
    I am going to the big Island for a few weeks

    mg (8cbc69)

  274. Now Ram fans in shock.

    Outplayed and outcoached, props to the Falcons.

    harkin (a76a32)

  275. Note to nevertrumpers, Trumps character is admirable.

    By the way, maybe I watch too much crime drama on TV, but don’t law enforcement and prosecutors use disinformation and distortion (and outright lies) all the time when trying to convict defendants?

    Not casting dispersion here, just asking.

    Coming at it from another angle, disinformation and distortion are a tactic of war, and whether you believe it or not, the USA is in the midst of a civil war(not a hot war yet, and not like the last one in this technology driven world, but a war for the soul of the nation nonetheless). I really believe accepting that fact, or not is what makes you (on the rights perspective, the left know we are in a civil war) a Trump supporter, or a nevertrumper.

    What us immoral in war is a whole different concept than what is immoral otherwise. The movie Sergeant York has a good treatment on that.

    The left controls the MSM and is subjecting the American people to massive distortion and disinformation. Trump is the rights General Patton. War is unpleasant, but it’s time to get real. There are things going on the the fight against globalism and the deep state most can’t even fathom, and the people are consumed with foolishness.

    The TEA Party is the past, and the shot heard round the world hasn’t happened yet, but we are all going to have to pick a side. Be wise

    TheBas (8d01aa)

  276. Note to nevertrumpers, Trumps character is admirable.

    A take so hot it can’t be touched.

    Also delusional bullshit.

    Patterico (115b1f)

  277. 283- Yes, you do watch too much crime drama on TV. Prosecutors who do that and get caught are usually known as “disgraced former prosecutors.” Or as “disbarred lawyers.” (Or as “Nancy Grace.”)

    I actually think you have a decent point when you suggest that the difference between Trump supporters — at least, those who justify everything he does because “he fights!” — and others is that the former believe that we are in a “war.” But of course that belief is also, to borrow the host’s language, delusional b.s.

    But Trump as General Patton? Seriously?

    Well, maybe in the sense that he throws temper tantrums and attacks people who are supposed to be on the same side. (He hasn’t actually gone into a hospital to slap any GIs yet, but give him time.)

    In the “tactical and strategic genius” sense? Not so much.

    And note that Ike allowed Patton to command a field army, with an Army group commander (fellow named Bradley; maybe you’ve heard of him?) placed over him, and SACEUR over Bradley. So to analogize Trump to Patton implies that, at most, he could be a useful subordinate in this “war” you think is going on. But you Trump enthusiasts tend to think he should be in undisputed charge of the entire war.

    gwjd (032bef)

  278. 279 – for Levi

    White and Nerdy (official video)

    You see me rollin
    on my Segway
    I know in
    my heart they think I’m
    White and nerdy

    Think I’m just too white and nerdy
    Think I’m just too white and nerdy
    Can’t you see I’m white and nerdy?
    Look at me, I’m white and nerdy

    I’d like to roll
    with the gangstas
    Although it’s
    apparent I’m too
    White and nerdy

    Think I’m just too white and nerdy
    Think I’m just too white and nerdy
    I’m just too white and nerdy
    How’d I get so white and nerdy?

    I been browsin’, inspectin’ X-Men comics
    You know I collect ’em
    The pens in my pocket, I must protect them
    My ergonomic keyboard never leaves me bored
    Shoppin’ online for deals on some writable media
    I edit Wikipedia
    I memorized Holy Grail really well
    I can recite it right now and have you R-O-T-F-L-O-L

    I got a business doing websites (websites)
    When my friends need some code, who do they call?
    I do H-T-M-L for ’em all
    Even made a homepage for my dog, yo
    I got myself a fanny pack
    They were havin’ a sale down at The Gap
    Spend my nights with a roll of bubble wrap
    Pop, pop, hope no one sees me gettin’ freaky

    papertiger (c8116c)

  279. (I think she should have been prosecuted regardless, but I am unfamiliar with this surprising claim…)

    IIRC, several Afghans on our payroll, and listed in those documents, were killed.

    Kevin M (752a26)

  280. The Rams Fans were brought in by the NFL to fill the seats.

    mg (8cbc69)

  281. 1) Can’t we all get along?

    2) Trump HAS been “the victim for 8 months of a disinformation campaign willingly engaged in by the dominant national media and the permanent political establishment of both parties, both in and out of government. People who just don’t like him have repeated assertions from his enemies that they would be more critical of, had they not been hoping that dirt would turn up.

    3) Trump is a boor, a bully, and an amazing loudmouth. It is hard to say that he behaves differently from all previous Presidents (some of which have been boors and/or bullies) because he has instant mass media access ALL THE TIME. This has not been true for any president before Obama. God only knows what Richard Nixon would have been tweeting during Watergate, or what either Roosevelt would have done with such a pulpit.

    4) As for tactics, yes, he races everyone to the gutter. I wish he didn’t and I cannot see an upside to it.

    5) But for all his many meltdowns he hasn’t thrown anyone into jail because they criticized him, or to make a lie good. Obama did both those things (Dinesh D’Souza and that filmmaker he blamed Benghazi on). He hasn’t used the IRS against his enemies (both Bill Clinton and Barack Obama did this). He hasn’t sent minions armed with clubs to bash in the heads of his opponents (the DNC vice-chair has endorsed doing this). He didn’t tap his opponent’s phones (as Obama did to Trump’s campaign).

    So, when you reel in horror with the man’s crassness and apparent lies, try not to lose all perspective. The opponents are playing for keeps and trying to co-opt you in their fight.

    Kevin M (752a26)

  282. “…very stable genius…” – President Donald J. Trump, 1/6/18

    Uh-huh.

    “And, I kid you not.” – Captain Queeg [Humphrey Bogart] ‘The Caine Mutiny’ – 1954

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  283. 290 –

    He has his critics using “genius” and “stable” in the same sentence as “Trump”.

    Lenny (5ea732)

  284. ‘Gorilla channel’ warfare: Parody book excerpt fools Trump trashers — Fox News 1/5/18

    Ahh, but the gorilla channel that’s… that’s where I had him. They laughed at me and made jokes but I proved beyond the shadow of a doubt and with… geometric logic… that a gorilla channel feed to the White House media room DID exist, and I’d have produced that feed if security hadn’t pulled my Press access. – MSNBC contributor Scott Dworkin “twitter mutterings” 2018

    papertiger (c8116c)

  285. 289-Kevin M.
    In agreement

    mg (8cbc69)

  286. So the same fluffers are considered reliable detractors now:

    https://legalinsurrection.com/2016/01/how-the-washington-post-contributed-to-mythology-of-obama-greatness/

    narciso (d1f714)

  287. He understands that politics in mma, no holds barred, a corollary to the Doolittle rule:

    http://www.americanthinker.com/articles/2018/01/hellzapoppin_the_fbi_doj_and_clinton_share_the_hot_seat.html

    narciso (d1f714)

  288. Trump Bund, Moscow chapter..

    THE DENSE NETWORK of pro-Kremlin Twitter accounts tracked by the group Alliance for Securing Democracy has spent the last year spreading chaos and discord about topics as diverse as NFL players refusing to stand during the national anthem and Al Franken’s alleged sexual misconduct. It was only a matter of time, then, before the troll army set its sights on special counsel Robert Mueller.

    https://www.wired.com/story/pro-russia-twitter-trolls-target-robert-mueller/

    Admiral Ben Bunsen Burner (b3d5ab)

  289. I have to give Trump Trolls credit for tenaciously battling to salvage their human dignity without tarnishing their tin weasel.

    Admiral Ben Bunsen Burner (b3d5ab)

  290. Espcially Random Viking who brandishes his wooden sword with a clackity-clack

    Admiral Ben Bunsen Burner (b3d5ab)

  291. There are two ways for a president to corrupt the vast powers of federal law enforcement. The one that has commanded the greatest attention so far is the defensive corruption of curtailing investigations into the administration and its allies (by, say, firing Robert Mueller). The other is offensive, by directing investigations into the administration’s political critics. And while this form of corruption has attracted less attention, Trump appears to have made far greater headway here.

    http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2018/01/republicans-weaponizing-the-law-against-trumps-enemies.html

    Admiral Ben Bunsen Burner (b3d5ab)

  292. Can Trump Trolls be guilty of Sedition?

    Could be….

    Admiral Ben Bunsen Burner (b3d5ab)

  293. Like siccing the IRS and Misha on the tea party and Gibson guitar and using the auto czar to shutter dealerships that pay the danegeld and putting a drag net over the entire ap, surveilling James rosen a if he wee will Smith, clay feller is screaming in the ether, after what sally Quinn did to him.

    narciso (d1f714)

  294. But for all his many meltdowns he hasn’t thrown anyone into jail because they criticized him, or to make a lie good. Obama did both those things (Dinesh D’Souza and that filmmaker he blamed Benghazi on). He hasn’t used the IRS against his enemies (both Bill Clinton and Barack Obama did this). He hasn’t sent minions armed with clubs to bash in the heads of his opponents (the DNC vice-chair has endorsed doing this). He didn’t tap his opponent’s phones (as Obama did to Trump’s campaign).

    Maybe you could encourage him to have the courage of his principles. Wait! Did I say principles

    Admiral Ben Bunsen Burner (b3d5ab)

  295. Good grief Benn, its bad enough you subjected your students to drek that makes maos red book, seem origiginal. As for the rest of you, you saw how both bushes were pummeled because they saw themselves above the grand Mal dementia the the dems were projecting

    narciso (d1f714)

  296. Yes I mispelled original, our host has been attacked by one of the lefts Rottweiler, and yet he still thinks marquise of queensbury rules apply.

    narciso (d1f714)

  297. 287

    IIRC, several Afghans on our payroll, and listed in those documents, were killed.

    This by itself is pretty weak. I expect Afghans on our payroll are getting killed all the time. Afghanistan is a dangerous place.

    James B. Shearer (951d11)

  298. Yes but they were particularly targeted, at that time and even after Snowdon,assuage wee in favor at the guardian, the times and the post, when he moved away fro. Burning assets and operationsrhats when he became png

    narciso (d1f714)

  299. There’s been a bomb cyclone of revelations from and about the White House since New Year’s Day. But there’s a pattern. It all stems from President Trump’s contempt for the rule of law. The week began with a tweet from the President that, in a quasi-normal political environment, would have led to an impeachment investigation.

    https://www.newyorker.com/news/daily-comment/donald-trump-and-the-rule-of-law

    Admiral Ben Bunsen Burner (586aab)

  300. He didn’t tap his opponent’s phones (as Obama did to Trump’s campaign).

    You’re still falling for tweets Trump wrote after watching the teevee? That were retroactively justified by relying on Louise Mensch?

    Patterico (ed9208)

  301. Let me get this straight….

    1) Col. Haiku is now banned
    2) Teh burner keeps on with his burning

    Question: If I infer something, something in my own little head or somehow cause others to infer such in their own little heads, from those two facts have I now insulted the host?

    CFarleigh (094b61)

  302. Yes he throws scat over the place, I guess that doesn’t insult all over the host.

    narciso (21eb6d)

  303. Special Ed Rear Admiral Ben Burnee Bro

    mg (8cbc69)

  304. Patterico, have you missed ALL of the FISA Court scandal? They used the bogus Steele dossier to get a warrant to spy on members of the campaign. Now you could argue that “members of the campaign” is different than “the campaign” but it would be hair-splitting.

    See for example, here: http://www.nationalreview.com/article/454709/steele-dossier-source-fisa-warrant-against-trump-campaign

    Or here: http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2018/01/04/house-intel-committee-to-get-long-sought-documents-from-doj-on-fusion-gps-nunes-says.html

    Or here: https://www.cnsnews.com/news/article/susan-jones/goodlatte-raises-questions-regarding-fbis-impartiality-wants-documents-fisa

    Kevin M (752a26)

  305. Yes he throws scat over the place, I guess that doesn’t insult all over the host.

    Exactly that. The rule seems to be that you can be as disruptive, disrespectful or tediously moronic as you want, just don’t attack our host. I am pretty sure that if you put it to a vote, Ben would be off the island toot suite.

    Kevin M (752a26)

  306. Let me get this straight….

    1) Col. Haiku is now banned
    2) Teh burner keeps on with his burning

    You could start by not lying. #1 is false. He has a one-week vacation. Whether he chooses to extend it is his decision.

    Patterico (115b1f)

  307. He didn’t tap his opponent’s phones (as Obama did to Trump’s campaign).

    And even if, after all the stonewalling, it turns out that the Hillary partisans who rand the FBI did not cheat on the FISA warrants, the rest of what I said (e.g. the IRS auditing Paula Jones, the Tea Party vs IRS, the jailing of several people, and the support of Antifa) are all things that Trump has not done that the Democrats have done more than once. Perspective is important.

    Kevin M (752a26)

  308. President Trump, it is often said, is a very thin-skinned person.

    I abjure this. I think he just feels like if people say something he thinks is unfair he’s not going to let that be the last word.

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  309. the sleazy FBI cheated the FISA warrants six ways to Sunday

    and the rubber-stamp FISA losers just sat there drooling on their robes like they had good sense

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  310. You could start by not lying. #1 is false.

    You could stop “lying” yourself. He is banned for one week. Burner? Not so much. Why is it so important for you to always be right, 100% of the time? OK, I lied there. 92.6% of the time. Close enough for government work though.

    This is what happens when you try to control other people’s expressions. It’s a downward spiral. There’s a quote often attributed to Ghandi, though I presume it’s apocryphal…for several reasons…”Choose your enemies well. You will begin to resemble them.”

    CFarleigh (094b61)

  311. Kevin M,

    I did not see the word wiretap in any article you linked, nor did I see any proof of Obama ordering anything. If you’re talking about a FISA warrant on a weirdly grinning guy who has been the subject of previous recruitment attempts by the Kremlin, was an investor in Gazprom, and had other contacts with Russian operatives, and was also once a low-level foreign policy adviser on the Trump campaign, I’m not sure you have proved your case that President Obama ordered wiretaps on the Trump campaign.

    Again, Trump saw this allegation on the teevee and rushed to his Twitter account, and his acolytes have been backfilling to justify it for months.

    Just because the man-child farts it out on Twitter doesn’t mean there’s a basis for it.

    Patterico (115b1f)

  312. Kevin M 312,

    As your own link states, the FISA warrant was for Carter Page after he was no longer part of the Trump campaign.

    DRJ (15874d)

  313. You could stop “lying” yourself. He is banned for one week.

    Which is different from being banned. For example, I am now banning you for a week, for calling me a liar. I’ll undo it in a week. If someone says you are “banned’ without further qualification, they will be just as dishonest as you have been on this thread.

    Enjoy your time off.

    Patterico (115b1f)


  314. The week began with a tweet from the President that, in a quasi-normal political environment, would have led to an impeachment investigation.


    Hahahaha. Comrade Ben!, you’re a psychotic flukin’ fool. Now tweets are cause for impeachment? Here, kitty, kitty. A shiny laser light. Hahahaha.

    Rev.Hoagie (6bbda7)

  315. Actually, I changed my mind. Calling me a liar gets you the full ban hammer.

    Unless you apologize for calling me a liar.

    Buh-bye CFarleigh.

    Patterico (115b1f)

  316. DRJ,

    Indeed. Let me quote Kevin’s link for non-clickers:

    Exactly when during the summer of 2016 the surveillance of Page began is unclear. Importantly, however, an unidentified government official told the New York Times that the FBI and DOJ waited until Page was no longer part of the Trump campaign before seeking the warrant — investigators being leery of crossing the line of direct spying on a political campaign member.

    But I missed the whole FISA Court scandal, I am told.

    Patterico (115b1f)

  317. This is what happens when you try to control other people’s expressions.

    This is from a member of the group telling Patterico that everything he says about Trump is wrong, so shut up. Classic.

    DRJ (15874d)

  318. He’s now being extradited to Kansas, to be charged with . . . murder? Nope, “making a false alarm.” I think that’s absurd, and that it’s murder, but hey. What do I know?

    Not really seeing how it’s murder without an intent to kill. Consider some other examples:

    Scenario A: Someone steals a stop sign to decorate their room. Lack of stop sign causes fatal auto accident.

    Scenario B: Someone pulls a fire alarm because they aren’t prepared for an exam. Firemen’s response to false alarm delays response to real alarm resulting in a death.

    Scenario C: Some group blocks a street to protest something or other. Resulting traffic jam delays emergency response to heart attack victim resulting in death.
    Are these murder also? If not where do you draw the line?

    James B. Shearer (951d11)

  319. Not really seeing how it’s murder without an intent to kill.

    Murder does not require intent to kill.

    I could give examples of my own but I’m strapped for time.

    Patterico (115b1f)

  320. meat is murder

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  321. No because such a call is designed to provoke a death,

    narciso (21eb6d)

  322. From the link provided in comment 283

    What character traits this took: hard work, focus, commitment, courage, honesty, independence, incorruptibility, self-confidence, love of excellence.

    This approaches Millerian level cult worship. Except for the self confidence, Trump has demonstrated, on an almost daily basis, his lack of all those character traits. And given how much he has to praise himself, and how much praise he seems to demand from others, the appearance of self confidence is probably a screen for deep insecurities.

    What us immoral in war is a whole different concept than what is immoral otherwise.
    Umm, no. The apparent exceptions are acts done to preserve the life of oneself or others: self defense.

    kishnevi (bb03e6)

  323. Aw common, Patterico. It’s a political site. They say Trump has thin skin?

    You really need to consider your current political allegiance. Somewhere back during the primaries I think you switched to democrat and just can’t come to grips with it. Since the election you’ve gone out of your way to diminish Trump at every chance. You’ve constantly produced arguments against Trump which are the very same I see put forth by leftists everywhere including the web and the MSM. IOW, you have consciously or unconsciously allied yourself with the Rosie O’Donnell/Chuck Schumer/Black Lives Matter radical leftists who, like you, have done nothing but scream at the sky since last November.

    Yet the insulting radical left commenters are unscathed whilst you ban the Colonel and CFarleigh?

    BTW, it seems to you some called you a “liar” but from my perspective (having respect for all involved) it appeared they were calling you out for talking out of both sides of your mouth. I understand you want to be a virtuous NeverTrumper but when you do that you need to be aware the people you are allying yourself with. One cannot be for conservative and republican programs and actions and be against the person enacting them. Makes no sense. We can agree he’s a vapid, vulgar individual but he’s still doing conservative deeds so far.

    The leftists like the comrade Ben!, Davechuhu et al on this site, and the leftists outside this blog don’t hate Trump because he lies, he exaggerates, he talks about grabbing pussy, he tweets or he’s generally an obnoxious bore. That’s their excuse to get guys like you to agree with them. They hate him because he is the exact opposite of everything they want: socialism with a dash of fascist rule to use government force for everything from redefining marriage to forcing taxpayers to fund their immoral programs. Brute force.

    Ask yourself where you think America would be right now if Hillary was president. If you answer honestly you would have to say a sh!t load closer to the left’s socialist utopia than we currently are and moving closer daily. Maybe Trump hasn’t stared the U.S. tacking right yet but he slowed the leftward plunge. At least for a while.

    MAGA. With or without Trump, MAGA.

    Ya know Canada has been our neighbor for a few hundred years and if it weren’t for American power and innovation nobody would even know they are there. That’s the difference between what the left wants, a semi-European socialist crap hole, and what America is exceptional individualists. If the left hates America so much there is a Euro style copy right next door and no matter how much they threaten or promise they just won’t move there. They could even learn and speak French, almost as good as a moslem native of Paris.

    Rev.Hoagie (6bbda7)

  324. James B. Shearer, check up on what’s known as “reckless disregard for human life”.

    If you do something which gives rise to a reasonable, easily foreseen risk of someone dying, and someone does die, you can be charged with homicide. Of the three examples you give, I’d say only the third one does. It is a case of drawing the line, but some cases are clearly on one side or the other.

    In this case, the SWATTer could claim he expected the police to respond with caution, prudence, and without quick resort to their guns, and that this was a reasonable expectation.

    The prosecution would be forced to argue that such an expectation is unreasonable, and that the police should be expected to respond without caution and prudence, and by quickly resorting to their guns. Which is the truth, most of the time, but I doubt the Wichita police would be happy if they made that argument.

    kishnevi (bb03e6)

  325. Yet the insulting radical left commenters are unscathed whilst you ban the Colonel and CFarleigh?

    For all his insults to other people here, I don’t remember Ben insulting and directly attacking the integrity of Patterico.

    Trump is conservative only if you think that authoritarian enforcement of socially conservative views, and a general push to increase the powers of law enforcement, is conservative.

    They could even learn and speak French, almost as good as a moslem native of Paris

    Displaying your ignorance again…Most of Canada speaks English. It’s only Quebec that is majority French speaking, and New Brunswick and Manitoba which have a large enough Francophone population to justify official use of French at the provincial level. Overall, 80% of Canadians (according to Wikipedia) speak English as their mother tongue.

    kishnevi (bb03e6)

  326. 327

    Murder does not require intent to kill.

    Isn’t that normally the case? The exceptions that I am aware of are felony murder and depraved indifference murder which don’t seem to clearly apply here either.

    On another point why is this being prosecuted in Kansas rather than California? Is there a standard rule when the act crosses a state line?

    James B. Shearer (951d11)

  327. Kishnevi,

    what socially conservative views has Trump used authoritarian acts to enforce?

    NJRob (b00189)

  328. Patterico says he is no longer a Republican and is not NeverTrump, Hoagie. I question your beliefs that he is a Democrat and NeverTrump because they are not consistent with what Patterico says about himself.

    DRJ (15874d)

  329. 335

    If you do something which gives rise to a reasonable, easily foreseen risk of someone dying, and someone does die, you can be charged with homicide. Of the three examples you give, I’d say only the third one does. It is a case of drawing the line, but some cases are clearly on one side or the other.

    I would expect the risk would have to exceed some threshold. The risk here seems to less than one in a thousand. Is that enough?

    Also homicide and murder aren’t the same thing. And did you mean my first example?

    James B. Shearer (951d11)

  330. James,

    There is also reckless homicide and negligent homicide, neither of which require intent to kill. State laws define them in different ways but, in general, negligent homicide occurs when someone is killed as a result of a defendant’s negligent conduct (conduct that a reasonable person would consider dangerous, even if this particular defendant did not). Reckless homicide is similar but the defendant knows the conduct is dangerous and does it anyway. For example, see this regarding Tennessee law.

    Murder is generally a state law crime that must be prosecuted in the jurisdiction where it occurred. In this case, it occurred in Kansas.

    DRJ (15874d)

  331. NJRob (b00189) — 1/7/2018 @ 9:58 am
    Renewing the War on Drugs seems a good example to me. Equating of criticism of police with being unpatriotic (which is the Trumpian stance about NFL kneelers) is another.

    James B. Shearer (951d11) — 1/7/2018 @ 10:03 am

    As I said, it is a case of deciding where we draw the line. The example I said was clearly over the line into criminality was the BLM blocking traffic.

    Reckless disregard/depraved indifference is often charged as manslaughter, I believe, so that’s why I used the term homicide and not murder.

    kishnevi (bb03e6)

  332. Also, I think the terms homicide and murder are often used interchangeably, but technically homicide is the killing of another while murder is unexcused criminal homicide.

    DRJ (15874d)

  333. NJRob (b00189) — 1/7/2018 @ 9:58 am
    Renewing the War on Drugs seems a good example to me. Equating of criticism of police with being unpatriotic (which is the Trumpian stance about NFL kneelers) is another.

    James B. Shearer (951d11) — 1/7/2018 @ 10:03 am

    As I said, it is a case of deciding where we draw the line. The example I said was clearly over the line into criminality was the BLM blocking traffic.

    Reckless disregard/depraved indifference is often charged as manslaughter, I believe, so that’s why I used the term homicide and not murder.

    kishnevi (bb03e6) — 1/7/2018 @ 10:19 am

    Enforcing federal law is authoritarian? Is that really the card you want to play? Is enforcing laws against rape a failure because rape still happens? That’s the claim about the “war on drugs.”

    So patriotism is socially conservative versus just common sense? We don’t have a nation without shared values and beliefs. Do you feel the same about other nations that clearly share a similar view?

    NJRob (b00189)

  334. Trump is conservative only if you think that authoritarian enforcement of socially conservative views, and a general push to increase the powers of law enforcement, is conservative.

    If you do something which gives rise to a reasonable, easily foreseen risk of someone dying, and someone does die, you can be charged with homicide.

    It can be easily forseen that crushing a baby’s skull inutero will cause that person to die.

    Pick a color Kish. Stick with it for more than a minute.

    papertiger (c8116c)

  335. Hoagie @ 32..I didn’t write that..

    To the Ben whiners..

    You anti-democratic patriots have 36 hours to up your linguistic game and provide more challenge than that of hecklers shouting down the lectern, which is there to help you evolve, not get you all sweaty with rage.

    Admiral Ben Bunsen Burner (b3d5ab)

  336. Admiral Ben Bunsen Burner (b3d5ab) — 1/7/2018 @ 10:37 am

    I ignore you because I don’t hold truck with assassins for hire.

    papertiger (c8116c)

  337. PT

    You have some challenges but you’re the least of the goatheads in my shoe.

    Admiral Ben Bunsen Burner (b3d5ab)

  338. Enforcing federal law is authoritarian? Is that really the card you want to play? Is enforcing laws against rape a failure because rape still happens? That’s the claim about the “war on drugs.”

    So patriotism is socially conservative versus just common sense? We don’t have a nation without shared values and beliefs. Do you feel the same about other nations that clearly share a similar view?

    The War on Drugs is premised on the belief that people shouldn’t have the right to destroy their own lives. If people don’t have the freedom to destroy their own lives, then they don’t have the freedom to improve their own lives: you can’t have one without the other.

    Hence the authoritarian nature of the War on Drugs.

    Making the police uncriticisable is authoritarian. Which is what Trump with his whole “unpatriotic NFL players” gambit wants.

    It can be easily forseen that crushing a baby’s skull inutero will cause that person to die.

    Which is why I stick to the traditional Jewish belief that abortion is allowable if, and only if, the life of the mother is at risk, and with the Torah’s teaching that a fetus is not considered a full human being.

    kishnevi (bb03e6)

  339. We have an app for that now, right? Mostly I can skip Bendover, but sometimes he leads with a longish quote from Huffpo that sucks me for a minute.

    I’ve seen you talk about a code to ghost annoyances, but I missed the day it was posted I think.

    papertiger (c8116c)

  340. Yes, there is Ostrich software available but conservatives come standard with the hardware.

    Admiral Ben Bunsen Burner (b3d5ab)

  341. Kishnevi,

    The War on Drugs is premised on the belief that drugs destroy people’s lives and warp the fabric of society. That’s not conservative. That’s logic. Go live in a drug infested community for a while. The scales will come off your eyes.

    And your remark stating that if you don’t have the right to destroy your life, then you don’t have the freedom to improve it is proven nonsense by the fact that we exist right now. We’ve had penalties on the books for self-abuse since our founding and people’s lives have gotten better every step of the way.

    Criticizing police =/= equal support for BLM and spitting on the flag and our nation. People on here criticize the police often. They don’t spit on the flag and the nation. Once again, without a common set of beliefs and social norms, you do not have a nation. You instead have different city states gearing up to war with each other.

    NJRob (b00189)

  342. Yet the insulting radical left commenters are unscathed whilst you ban the Colonel and CFarleigh?

    Haiku is not banned. That is a falsehood you spoke and you should retract it.

    The rest of your comment is just silly.

    Patterico (ed9208)

  343. will we ever see Mr. Colonel again nobody knows

    it’s completely opaque, this future we face

    there’s no certainty

    these shifting sands on which we plant our flag

    they are treacherous

    uncaring as Apathy

    capricious as Chance

    it is a melancholy day

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  344. Women who seek out abortions, and this was true of my sister, do so at the urging of the sperm’s author for financial reasons.

    If full employment removes the incentive, putting an end to the practice, or at least removing the main excuse from the table, color me conservative.

    papertiger (c8116c)

  345. Men will still claim being unable to afford child support no matter what their income, if they don’t want to be responsible. And men will still be willing to support their children no matter what their income, if they do want to be responsible.

    It’s not a question of having men who can afford to support their kids. It’s a question of having men who want to support their kids.

    kishnevi (bb03e6)

  346. The New York Daily news had an editorial about this, and cited other examoples of extreme opposition to free speech, too, some of which I didn’t know about. (I learned about the Ajit Pai death threats from that editorial too)

    http://www.nydailynews.com/opinion/mob-marches-growing-hostility-contrary-views-article-1.3740669

    Another mad milestone in Americans’ seeming inability to so much as listen to views with which they disagree: Death threats just forced Ajit Pai, chair of the Federal Communications Commission, to cancel an appearance at the nation’s biggest tech industry trade show, set to start Sunday.

    Which means that at least one person is so enraged by Pai leading the charge to undo net neutrality, he or she stooped to criminal intimidation, and perhaps even plotted to do Pai physical harm.

    This is madness, of exactly the sort that led Brown University students to shout down former Police Commissioner Ray Kelly four years ago.

    And that last year led rabid Middlebury students to hound conservative scholar Charles Murray as he tried to leave campus — and left professor Allison Stanger, who had the temerity to sit on stage with Murray, with a concussion.

    And that prompted Columbia students to shout down Danny Danon, Israel’s representative to the United Nations.

    And that triggered a public radio station in Berkeley to cancel a discussion with the evolutionary biologist Richard Dawkins, in the midst of an uproar over his comments criticizing Islam.

    And that propelled students to rush the stage at the College of William & Mary during a talk about, yes, the First Amendment, chanting “liberalism is white supremacy.”

    This virus of supposedly enlightened intolerance now plagues places where adult professionals congregate. It was bound to come to this, and it’s damn depressing.

    Sammy Finkelman (02a146)

  347. 346. Rabbi Solveiuchik treated practical haalchah more or less as the same as for amoutating aleg.

    Sammy Finkelman (02a146)

  348. This is about as “uniform” a standard for murder as you will find in the United States, given the variations from state to state:

    A person who kills an individual without lawful justification commits first degree murder if, in performing the acts which cause the death:
    (1) he either intends to kill or do great bodily harm to that individual or another, or knows that such acts will cause death to that individual or another; or
    (2) he knows that such acts create a strong probability of death or great bodily harm to that individual or another; or
    (3) he is attempting or committing a forcible felony other than second degree murder.

    (2) is the one we’re interested in: “knows that such acts create a strong probability of death or great bodily harm” Knows! Strong probability!

    In the Steinle post, Patterico tried to explain the difference between criminal state of mind and civil tort state of mind, for all the good it did. “Viewed in retrospect it was not unforeseeable” does not cut it in criminal law.

    nk (dbc370)

  349. 338

    … In this case, it occurred in Kansas.

    The victim died in Kansas but the chain of events started in California. The accused acted in California. Perhaps the rule is that Kansas has jurisdiction but this is not completely obvious.

    James B. Shearer (951d11)

  350. 339

    Reckless disregard/depraved indifference is often charged as manslaughter, I believe, so that’s why I used the term homicide and not murder.

    The term murder is what I am questioning.

    James B. Shearer (951d11)

  351. It was my guess that it would be tried in Kansas. It’s where the death happened and where most of the witnesses are.

    So: here’s my scenario:

    I set up a contraption so that a gun will be fired into a crowd if someone sits in a chair. Someone sits in the chair and the gun goes off, killing someone in the crowd. I did not pull the trigger.

    Tweaked: now the gun is a revolver and only one round is in the chamber. So it’s like Russian roulette. I did not pull the trigger and it was not certain that a bullet would be fired if the trigger was pulled.

    But the gun did go off and someone was killed.

    These are examples of someone setting up a situation where another person’s action caused the death, and in the second scenario even the firing of the gun was not certain.

    Are they still murder? I’d say so.

    Again, you don’t need intent to kill for murder.

    Patterico (115b1f)

  352. The term murder is what I am questioning.

    I do not know Kansas law but California’s rather typical second degree murder law requires knowledge that one’s action is likely to cause death, and a conscious disregard of that risk. No intent or premeditation is needed.

    Patterico (115b1f)

  353. will we ever see Mr. Colonel again nobody knows

    With any luck, either:

    1. Never
    or
    2. When he stops being a persistent negative presence

    Patterico (115b1f)

  354. Kevin M 312,

    As your own link states, the FISA warrant was for Carter Page after he was no longer part of the Trump campaign.

    Was this point ever responded to? You’d think a guy who was lecturing me about how I missed the whole FISA Order scandal might want to step forward and either defend his point or acknowledge he was wrong.

    Patterico (115b1f)

  355. You really need to consider your current political allegiance. Somewhere back during the primaries I think you switched to democrat and just can’t come to grips with it.

    I think I have the same beliefs I always had, but refuse to kiss the ass of an eternally dishonest man-child, and you can’t come to grips with that.

    I understand you want to be a virtuous NeverTrumper but when you do that you need to be aware the people you are allying yourself with. One cannot be for conservative and republican programs and actions and be against the person enacting them.

    I can easily be for limited government and freedom and still oppose a guy who a) has done very little meaningful towards my most important goals (ending ObamaCare and the never-ending cycle of debt), b) is a chucklehead, and c) is a man-child whose “accomplishments” were all done by his handlers, who hold him in contempt and flatter him because they know he is such a simpleton, that’s all it takes.

    You are desperately trying to redefine “conservatism” as equivalent to kissing the rump of an aging man with the personality of a grade-school child. I don’t buy it, I never will buy it, and you can give up trying.

    Patterico (115b1f)

  356. i like President Trump because a.) he does a lot of accomplish and b.) he’s such a spirited lad

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  357. you probably have your own reasons

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  358. Indeed. Let me quote Kevin’s link for non-clickers:

    Note: one link of three, and the most cautious one. The request for a FISA warrant FOR ANY REASON using lies and unsubstantiated assertions, which are present to the court as intelligence product, is a serious breach of the law. That it is done to tap the phone of someone who is in any way related to a campaign, given that these warrants often allow ancillary taps, makes it especially eggregious.

    Further, many believe that Carter was not the only one named in this/these warrants. Further, there are claims that the product of these taps was available to the WH, with names unredacted.

    I am sorry that my 1 minute search for corroboration did not hit certain gold. But the accusation made by our host that I work from what TRUMP spouts is one of those lies that he so hates.

    Kevin M (752a26)

  359. Was this point ever responded to? You’d think a guy who was lecturing me about how I missed the whole FISA Order scandal might want to step forward and either defend his point or acknowledge he was wrong.

    Golly gee, but I have a live outside of this blog.

    Kevin M (752a26)

  360. And I repeat: You respond to only one sentence in a detailed post. Then DEMAND that I prove that one sentence while ignoring the rest as if it had no meaning.

    I could just as reasonably DEMAND that you responded to everything else in that post. I won’t, but I would have equal justification in doing so.

    Kevin M (752a26)

  361. Damn honest of you Patterico, to state what you did about Bannon after how he has treated you.

    mg (8cbc69)

  362. 360

    I do not know Kansas law but California’s rather typical second degree murder law requires knowledge that one’s action is likely to cause death, and a conscious disregard of that risk. No intent or premeditation is needed.

    The issue is what “likely” means here. If I were the defense I would argue it means more likely than not (that is a 50+% chance). If I were the prosecution I would argue it means a substantial chance (say 10% or more chance). The probability here appears to be less than one in a thousand which doesn’t come close to even the lower standard. If there is a one in a thousand chance of rain tomorrow you would not say it is likely to rain.

    On another point is the standard how a reasonable person would have assessed the danger or how the idiot accused actually assessed the danger?

    James B. Shearer (951d11)

  363. James,

    If I throw a flowerpot off my 47th story window at 4am, I might well say that “the chance of it hurtung someone was less than 50%.” But if it DOES hit someone and it kills them, I would rightfully be charged with a homicide. Not first degree, perhaps, but at least manslaughter.

    I had no good reason to throw the flowerpot, I knew that there was SOME chance it would hit someone, and yet I did it anyway. Anything that results is MY FAULT.

    Similarly with the swatting. It’s an act that was followed by a death and if the swatting “prank” had not happened, the person would be alive. You can go on about “odds” all you want but the fact is that the chance of the guy being dead is now exactly 100%.

    Kevin M (752a26)

  364. I had no good reason to throw the flowerpot, I knew that there was SOME chance it would hit someone, and yet I did it anyway. Anything that results is MY FAULT.

    NO! You are confusing civil liability with criminal liability. You had to have known, or willfully and wantonly disregarded (that’s recklessness), that there was a DAMN GOOD chance that it would not only hit someone but that the force would be sufficient to cause death or great bodily harm.

    nk (dbc370)

  365. 371

    I am not questioning that a serious crime was committed just that “murder” as usually defined was committed.

    James B. Shearer (951d11)

  366. Unlike the flower-pot example, isn’t it clear that there was malice involved in the swatting call, and that the intent was to place the target in a situation where there was greatly elevated risk to them?

    A better analogy might be cutting someone’s brake lines or removing the lug-nuts on their tires, when you know they will be commuting to work on the freeway. The victim might manage to maintain control of their sabotaged car and survive, or they might not…

    Dave (445e97)

  367. You guys really, really, really, have the kneepads on for the police, don’t you? You just won’t entertain the notion that the sniper’s’s volitional act of firing a shot with intent to kill or cause great bodily harm was an intervening act which superseded whatever mens rea the SWATter had and was the proximate cause of the victim’s death. To you the cops are as devoid of free will and as incapable of voluntary acts as toasters, flower pots and freeways.

    nk (dbc370)

  368. You guys really, really, really, have the kneepads on for the police, don’t you?

    My analogy wasn’t intended to absolve the shooter of responsibility.

    To my non-lawyerly eyes, the Swatter is definitely guilty of some kind of felony homicide, and the cop may well be guilty too.

    Dave (445e97)

  369. I apologize to you, Dave. Nonetheless, an act which results in the death of a person does need to be labeled a homicide in order to be punishable as a crime. Not any more than an act which does not result in the death of a person does. If after years and years of SWATtings the legislature has left a gap in the law which does not sufficiently punish “making a false alarm” which results in the death of a person, the solution is not exotic prosecution theories. Prosecutors, judges and juries making up the law as they go along to get the result they think they should get in a particular case is … ‘ow you say in your country … Orwellian?

    nk (dbc370)


Powered by WordPress.

Page loaded in: 0.8516 secs.