Patterico's Pontifications

12/4/2017

The GOP Tax Bill: A Betrayal of Conservative Values

Filed under: General — Patterico @ 7:31 am

Early Saturday morning, the United States Senate passed a sweeping tax bill. While many conservatives are cheering its passage, they shouldn’t be. The bill is a massive and disastrous betrayal of conservative values, for four reasons.

First, the bill proves, once and for all, that no party in Washington D.C. cares about the national debt, its effect on our children, and its drag on the economy.

Second, the bill raises taxes on many in the professional middle class, to give away goodies to super-rich donors.

Third, the bill will drive up health insurance premiums by repealing ObamaCare’s individual mandate without repealing the other provisions of ObamaCare.

Fourth and finally, the bill fails to deliver on the stated goal of “simplifying” the tax code.

Yes, we’re going to dive into each one of those items and see how they fail to benefit Americans. Maybe, before the final legislation is agreed upon and sent to President Trump, some things can be fixed. Or amended. Or we can just start over. (Probably not that last one.)

Here we go…

1. THE BILL WILL ADD TO THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT’S ALREADY CRUSHING DEBT

Unless you are Matt Yglesias, or some other equally smug and ignorant putz, you understand that the national debt is a huge problem. With the recent lifting of the debt ceiling, the debt exceeded $20 trillion dollars. I know that every number that ends in “illion” just ends up sounding like some variant of the word “big” to most people, so if you want a visual of what $20 trillion in hundred-dollar bills looks like, click here, or play this video:

For years, I have warned about the coming crash of the government debt bubble. You can’t go on borrowing like your drunk uncle Joe forever without the ultimate result being inflation and lots of it. And what’s the main thing that will jump-start the crash? Interest rates rising above their unnaturally depressed level. Bad news! That has already started to happen.

And as interest rates rise, and spending continues out of control, an ever-increasing chunk of the national budget will be devoted to interest payments. This will squeeze out other priorities and choke the private sector. Ultimately, our children are going to be paying for all this, one way or another — either in the form of higher taxes, or inflation. Given the cowardice of government officials, it’s going to be inflation. And it’s going to be bad.

And while our main problem is spending, and not taxes, this bill makes the problem worse.

Friday night, hours before the vote, the CBO estimated that the bill would add almost $1.5 trillion to the debt over ten years. Now look. I understand that CBO estimates are generally off. I also understand, and agree with, the argument that growth tends to offset part of the loss in revenue from a tax cut. Static scoring models tend to understate the extent to which growth resulting from a tax cut offsets the loss in revenue. This is all true.

But any honest economist will tell you that there is no guarantee that tax cuts “pay for themselves.” Kevin D. Williamson, who is (like me) a hardcore free marketeer with a respect for the economic philosophy of Ludwig von Mises and Friedrich Hayek, wrote a piece in September opposing the proposed Republican tax cut. It is worth quoting at length because it sets forth the case against the tax bill as an engine of growth that will allow tax cuts to “pay for themselves”:

Republicans want to cut taxes by $1.5 trillion — while the government already is running a deficit — and they propose to offset those cuts with wishful thinking.

. . . .

Tax cuts can contribute to economic growth by putting more money into the pockets of consumers and investors. In the free-lunch version of the story, that extra money produces so much new economic activity that the resulting growth in corporate and individual incomes offsets the reduction in tax rates. If that sounds like Keynesian stimulus theory standing on its head, it is. There is a multiplier effect — and politicians looking to sell you a bill of goods always assume that the multiplier is >1, even when there’s no reason to believe this to be the case.

Tax cuts can have anti-growth effects as well as pro-growth effects. Deficits and public debt are a drag on the economy, hoovering up investable capital and putting upward pressure on interest rates. If you want to eventually eliminate those deficits and pay down that debt, then you either have to raise taxes in the future, cut spending, or do both, i.e., you have to invert today’s stimulus measures at some point in the future. (“At some point in the future” is every politician’s favorite timeframe, of course — they all assume they’ll be dead or retired by the time the music stops.)

Williamson acknowledges that, for believers in the Laffer curve (and I am one, as most anyone with any knowledge of economics is), it is true that the loss of revenues can be offset to some degree by growth. But, he noted, it is irresponsible — and not very “conservative” — to expect that the net amount of revenue loss (including the offset) will not add to the debt and deficit:

Republicans are right about the existence of growth effects, but they are fooling themselves about the scale of those effects. There is nothing wrong in principle with “dynamic scoring,” the Republican-favored policy of incorporating growth effects into the Congressional Budget Office’s evaluation of the fiscal effects of legislation. But that should be done responsibly. The current pie-in-the-sky Republican attitude toward taxes is something else entirely. On the other hand, there’s a good conservative case for ignoring dynamic scoring, too: If we cut a dollar in spending for every dollar in tax cuts and find out 20 years from now that we could have gotten away with only cutting 70 cents in spending on the dollar, then that will be a happy surprise. Sobriety in expectations and caution about future developments was, once upon a time, considered “conservative.”

Bob Murphy, a free-market economist who worked for Arthur Laffer, explains that the notion that tax receipts would increase if taxes are cut “was never a blanket prediction of the Laffer approach.”

You can’t count on tax cuts to pay for themselves. These tax cuts are overwhelmingly likely to add to the deficit and debt. At a time when the national debt just passed $20 trillion, this is incredibly irresponsible. Moreover, those Senators who raised concerns about the debt were steamrolled, while others who usually worry about the debt said not a word. So the bill sends a signal that the real problem — out of control spending — will never be addressed. And that has potentially tragic consequences for our country.

2. THE BILL HIKES TAXES ON THE PROFESSIONAL MIDDLE CLASS TO GIVE TAX BREAKS TO SUPER-WEALTHY DONORS

The bill is also non-conservative because conservatives are supposed to stand for the middle class. And this bill raises taxes on many in the middle class, to pay for tax breaks for the very wealthy.

First, let’s clear some leftist tropes out of the way.

To be clear: I am not upset that the bill helps the wealthy. Any tax cut bill does. It’s ridiculous to oppose a tax cut on the basis that it benefits the wealthy more than it benefits the poor. Of course it does! The wealthy pay most of the taxes in this country.

The top 1% of taxpayers pay a higher effective income-tax rate than any other group (around 23%, according to a report released by the Tax Policy Center in 2014) — nearly seven times higher than those in the bottom 50%.

If you’re against a tax cut for the wealthy, you’re against tax cuts, period. Similarly, opposing a tax cut because “38% of Americans won’t get a sizable tax cut” ignores the fact that a good chunk of those people aren’t paying federal income tax to begin with.

That said, I don’t think it makes sense to increase taxes on any portion of the middle class while giving a tax break to the super-rich.

And make no mistake: taxes are going up on a lot of people in the middle class. Full disclosure: I am among the members of the professional middle class affected by these changes. How much they will affect me, I’m not sure. There was a flood of activity on the Senate floor just before the vote, with changes handwritten in the margins of legislation and copies cutting off the words in the margins. The last-minute changes included significant ones like the retention of the alternative minimum tax, which will hurt me. Depending on what the final bill looks like, my extra tax liability could be a few hundred extra per year if I’m lucky, and several thousand extra per year if I’m not.

But it’s not about me. Even if the final bill irons everything out to where I personally get a tax cut and not a tax hike, I would still oppose a plan that raised taxes on anyone in the middle class to give a tax raise to the super-rich.

And it does. Conservative Marc Thiessen says that “there are millions of Americans, including individuals and families at every income level, who would see their taxes hiked under the GOP plan.” (My emphasis.) Meanwhile, the bill does benefit the super-rich: “Congress’s official scorekeepers say over 80 percent of millionaires would pay less in taxes in the coming years under this plan.” This analysis was not done on the final version, but it’s obvious that there were no last-minute changes that will suddenly take away the tax breaks of most millionaires.

Again: I would have no problem if the super-rich were to receive a bigger break than the less well-off. They should get a bigger break, since they pay more. But to actually raise taxes on many in the middle class, while cutting taxes of the super-rich, is just plain wrong. People in the middle class are struggling with a lot of problems these days, including out-of-control college tuition and skyrocketing health insurance premiums. It’s infuriatingly bad policy to add to their burdens. As Thiessen says: “When Republicans reform the tax code, there should be no losers, especially not the middle class.” Amen to that!

Many justify this by arguing that the system is getting flatter. That argument has some appeal. I am generally in favor of a flatter tax system. As I said, I am a hardcore free marketeer — meaning I oppose government intervention in as many areas of life as possible. If we look at this only from the perspective of economics, I believe that any special tax break or deduction should be eliminated. But this can be done without raising the taxes of people in the middle class. All Republicans need to do is get rid of some breaks for the super-wealthy, and then lower middle-class rates enough to compensate for the aspects of the plan that hit the middle class in the gut. But GOP lawmakers are so intent on throwing bones to their donors, they simply don’t care that they are screwing the middle class to do it.

The GOP seems to be making a practical political calculation: most of the middle-class people hurt by this bill live in blue states that won’t vote for the GOP anyway. I understand the calculation, but there is a countervailing practical political issue here as well. Blue states aren’t entirely blue. While California will never throw its electoral votes to Donald Trump, we do send about 14 Republicans to the House of Representatives. We do donate to political candidates. But guess what? If Republicans in blue states have their taxes raised by hundreds or even thousands of dollars per family per year, those Republicans may not feel particularly inclined to keep donating to the politicians who voted to raise their taxes. They may even be so disenchanted with Republican lawmakers that they stay home on Election Day. If enough blue-state Republicans feel this way after they see what this bill does to them next April, the bloodbath in 2018 may be worse than any of us ever dreamed.

3. REPEALING THE INDIVIDUAL MANDATE WITHOUT REPEALING OBAMACARE WILL DRIVE UP PREMIUMS EVEN MORE

ObamaCare can never work. It’s an effort to centrally plan one-sixth of America’s economy. The effort was doomed from the beginning, because central planning never works. Ever. We should have learned this when millions starved to death under Communism. But like a cockroach that lives through a nuclear blast, socialism has an incredible ability to outlast the lessons of history, which ought to have destroyed the idea many times over, years ago.

ObamaCare tries to manipulate consumers by changing existing law in the hope that it will create an artificial demand for health insurance (through the individual mandate), to compensate for the requirement that health insurance be supplied at prices that would be unavailable in a truly free market (guaranteed issue). In other words, the law creates a price control, and then tries to avoid the shortages that price controls usually create, by creating an artificial demand by legislative fiat.

It isn’t working, and it never could work. Centrally controlled prices never do. Only the market can balance a demand for goods with a concominant supply of goods. From its inception, ObamaCare has resulted in insurance companies fleeing the exchanges and driving up premiums.

But you can’t fix an imperfect attempt by central planners to balance supply and demand by throwing only one end open to “deregulation.” California learned this in the 1990s with its failed semi-deregulation of utilities, which “deregulated” the supply chain, but left price controls in place on the delivery to consumers. It was a disaster, because you can’t do that. Markets work their magic only when both supply and demand are free of government regulation.

Yet one-sided “deregulation” is exactly what Congress is doing here. It is “deregulating” half of the market (by removing the mandate) while regulating the other half (by continuing to impose guaranteed issue and other regulatory requirements).

If insurance companies lose the part of ObamaCare that incentivizes young people to buy more insurance, by threatening them with a penalty (sorry, a “tax”) for failing to do so, then insurance companies will have to find some other way to deal with the increased costs of guaranteed issue and other regulations. Inevitably, they will do this through some combination of accelerating their current flight from the exchanges, and raising premiums even higher than we have seen to date.

So while ObamaCare’s scheme is unsustainable, the artificial demand created by the individual mandate does serve to balance, albeit imperfectly, the price controls created by guaranteed issue. Deregulating the individual mandate side while leaving the price controls in place will accelerate the death spiral caused by rapidly increasing premiums.

It’s terrible policy, and the egregiousness of it will take days for people to realize, amid the welter of discussion of other aspects of the bill. But make no mistake: this is one of the biggest problems of the Senate bill.

4. THE BILL DOESN’T REALLY SIMPLIFY DOING TAXES

Every tax bill is accompanied by its proponents’ claims it simplifies the filling out of a tax return. Every time, this is a lie. This time is no exception.

Nobody is going to be filing taxes on a postcard. Nobody! All the bill does is create a new set of winners and losers. Who those winners and losers are, exactly, will emerge only slowly over time, as we see what breaks lobbyists were able to lard the bill up with, in the mad rush to get this thing passed in the early hours of a Saturday.

Check out this Washington Post summary of the changes that we know about, and you’ll see a distinct lack of simplicity. There are still SALT deductions, just not as many. There is still an alternative minimum tax. It just applies to a different group. There is still an estate tax. It just applies to a different group of people. As the old shampoo commercial said: And so on. And so on. And so on.

IN CONCLUSION

Are there good parts about this bill? Sure, I guess. The corporate tax reduction is welcome. There will be more growth. A lot of Americans will see some actual relief from the bill. It’s not all bad.

But to me, the debt is a five-alarm fire. Any major legislation that makes it worse, and that signals we won’t fix spending, is a calamity.

So while you could say that the passage of the bill means both bad news and good news … yes, that is technically true.

But that’s like saying that the surgeon has bad news and good news after the operation. The bad news is that the surgeon cut off the wrong leg, and you still have gangrene in the leg he left attached. Whoops! I’m sorry about that. But on the bright side, he also put a band-aid on the boo-boo on your elbow and stopped a little bleeding.

Um, thanks for the small favor, I guess? But mainly, screw you guys for the horrible job you did.

Like a lot of things that have happened over the past year, the best real conservatives can say about this is that it has been … clarifying. It really puts a perspective on things, doesn’t it?

[Cross-posted at RedState and The Jury Talks Back.]

540 Responses to “The GOP Tax Bill: A Betrayal of Conservative Values”

  1. Tons of nutrition here. But the coming crash caps it.

    Admiral Ben burn (b3d5ab)

  2. The point about where revenue is coming from is valid, the budget is not the responsibility of that committee,

    however the budget that tried to trim discretionary program growth was doa, don’t you
    recall. Now you want to trim entitlements which ones and by how much

    narciso (d1f714)

  3. Remember…these are optimists

    Could the next recession be the one where policy makers are the most impotent they’ve been for 45 years or will they simply go for even more extreme tactics and resort to full on monetisation to pay for a fiscal splurge? It does feel that we’re at a crossroads and the next downturn could be marked by extreme events given the policy cul-de-sac we seem to be nearing the end of,” Deutsche Bank’s team writes.

    http://www.businessinsider.com/what-will-cause-the-next-financial-crisis-2017-9/#japans-longstanding-economic-and-social-issues-4

    Admiral Ben burn (b3d5ab)

  4. Plutocracies are self-feeding. Wealth feeds power and power feeds wealth. Yet eventually the runaway greed, unless checked early enough, will lead to a mega-crisis. The United States seems to be on such a path, with growing risks of another financial bubble or a future fiscal crisis. The timing is especially inopportune, since America is challenged as never before by the global shifts of economic, diplomatic, and military power.

    https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bostonglobe.com/opinion/2017/11/28/runaway-greed-enabled-tax-bill-will-lead-crisis/jNBma9mfGAUOJ5J7gk2OxH/amp.html

    Admiral Ben burn (b3d5ab)

  5. Which loophole affects Patterico? A huge mortgage, an expensive property? You have the right to choose a high tax state… Congress and the President are concerned with the whole country… Would you be so critical if your taxes were reduced? What will you say to the formerly unemployed, who get jobs? 1.3 trillion dollars in new debt. How can this be compared to 10 trillion in eight years?

    Raul Alessandri (223d20)

  6. Patterico, for the first time in a while I actually agree with your entire post and your reasons explained in each of your four points. I also agree with narciso about getting the spending under control but that idea is both infuriating and frustrating. It’s those damn entitlements.

    Rev.Hoagie (6bbda7)

  7. You can’t count on tax cuts to pay for themselves.

    Or for Iraq oil to recover the $2 trillion.

    Admiral Ben burn (b3d5ab)

  8. See the pattern?

    Admiral Ben burn (b3d5ab)

  9. Raul counsels personal responsibility..

    Admiral Ben burn (b3d5ab)

  10. Now maybe the folks at Henry blodvettd little fanzine missed qe infinity.

    narciso (4346c7)

  11. Address spending. That’s the only way out of the “Govt. take care of me!!!” hole.

    harkin (bb95ff)

  12. I hate to say this but it doesn’t matter because not enough people agree with this or are impacted by this or even understand this to make a difference. In fact, most people think the band-aid will solve the problem.

    DRJ (15874d)

  13. We could hike the rate up to 22, and that might obviate the loss of at least one deduction.

    Tell us what programs would you cut, which taxes to raise, make it balance and not tank the economy.

    narciso (4346c7)

  14. For example, how many people will say that because we have a spending problem, we don’t have to be (or it’s useless to be) responsible about anything else?

    DRJ (15874d)

  15. Thank you, Patterico, for a fair and passionate essay. Sure you are angry, but there is little spittle flying, and we could all—everywhere—learn from your kind of approach.

    I have not studied economics other than Sowell’s fine book. But my very conservative brother has a degree in the topic, and he agrees with your post.

    I am curious (and obviously not a request or demand) to see your proposal for tax reforms.

    But the problem we have (which is why I liked your post) is waaaay too much overheated and overstated nonsense. Like this:

    https://twitchy.com/dougp-3137/2017/12/02/drama-queen-alert-patton-oswalts-fury-despair-over-passage-of-a-tax-bill-is-unmatched/

    So any attempt to deal with a big problem gets that kind of approach. But to be fair, I remember similar rhetoric when Reagan was POTUS.

    Bumper sticker thinking is all the rage these days.

    Again, Patterico, a great post.

    Simon Jester (c8876d)

  16. narciso,

    How about making responsible decisions every time we can, instead of trying to fix the problem with every law/budget and then giving up if it can’t be done? In other words, stop digging.

    DRJ (15874d)

  17. Patton Oswald snorfle, he wouldn’t even qualify as an alternate Hollywood square.

    narciso (4346c7)

  18. I remember similar rhetoric when Reagan was POTUS.

    And supremely justified in their rancor now that History gives us context.

    Admiral Ben burn (b3d5ab)

  19. I’m a New York resident who is fortunate enough to be able to complain about being in AMT territory so I sympathize with a bit of this, and I would have preferred a gradual elimination of SALT and mortgage interest above $500k so people could adjust better. But I am not in principle opposed to eliminating the deductions because pretty much all deductions distort economic behavior for tax reasons and can cause the behavior to be too separate from the sense of the underlying business transaction. Overall, I can’t tell if I’ll break even after not deducting SALT or whether I’ll come out ahead. And the elimination of SALT should also affect the AMT amounts because part of AMT is packing back in taxes on deductions in high-tax states. Once again, I’d have liked more gradualism on all of this. I don’t like the idea of not being able to figure out next year’s taxes and wondering what will pop up at the end of my TurboTax exercise. But the principle of eliminating the deductions is sound.

    As for the overall tax rate – I would actually be willing to pay MORE federal tax if it was earmarked solely and specifically to reducing the deficit. That’s not going to happen so from an individual point of view I’d rather take the extra money and invest it in financial instruments that rise in value when interest rates rise. Heck, I’ve been taxed several thousand dollars a year in foregone interest income for the last 8 years as the government made sure that interest rates were artificially low so that banks could be reflated. And that may have been a sound policy too – or maybe not – but the several thousand dollars of foregone, essentially risk-free, interest income I haven’t gotten as a prolific saver is very real to me.

    But I’m pleased with the removal of the individual mandate. I don’t think it helped lower rates in the first place but without the individual mandate those of us who are willing to insure only against catastrophic illnesses – i.e., essentially taking a big hit on the survivable expenses but making sure we aren’t bankrupted by medical expenses – can do that more cost-effectively because we won’t have to take on a bronze plan at a minimum. Yes, it would have been nicer if they could have addressed preexisting conditions too – that’s an enormous gap. But at the very least, the removal of a coercive plan to have health insurance is a start, no matter how imperfect.

    Lazlo Toth (0699ca)

  20. Almost there, Patterico! You have almost arrived in the Reality Based Community. There are many former-Republicans here – hardly a monoculture, and we argue. A lot.

    We just prefer to match judge policy preference against the real world instead of wishful thinking, and more generally acknowledge that the laws of physics apply to this world.

    Just a few more small steps, including getting over your aesthetic preferences and realizing that lots of us rootless libertines actually care about policy, too.

    grass is greener (51fdf0)

  21. Great post, Mr. Toth.

    Even if a final bill is passed and signed relatively early this month, they should push back Tax Day to perhaps the May 20s, both to allow publication of the updated materials etc for 2017 Tax Year and to make a point about true Tax Freedom Day (which is usually around that time).

    urbanleftbehind (5eecdb)

  22. Now within the current framework, echoing Rumsfeld aphorism, what can be done?

    narciso (4346c7)

  23. Kansas cut taxes on the rich and is a basket case. California raised them and is thriving. In 2012, Kansas slashed taxes on top earners and business owners, while California raised taxes on top earners to the highest state rate in the nation. Since then, California has had among the strongest economic growth of any state, while Kansas has fallen behind most other states.
    So don’t fall for supply-side, trickle-down nonsense. Lower taxes on the rich don’t generate growth and jobs. They only make the rich even richer, at a time of raging inequality, and they cause bigger budget deficits.

    https://www.salon.com/2017/10/15/why-the-republican-tax-plan-is-more-failed-than-trickle-down-economics_partner/

    Admiral Ben burn (b3d5ab)

  24. You go to economic war with the Reagan you have.

    Admiral Ben burn (b3d5ab)

  25. Stockman has spent the last 30 years apologizing, admitting that supply-side and “trickle-down” economics are the same and that tax cuts could never pay for themselves. At best, says conservative economist Greg Mankiw of Harvard, growth could cover about a third of the cost of tax cuts.

    Still, false hope underpins the plan that Trump and congressional Republicans hope to pass before year’s end. There is still widespread disagreement among Republicans about what to cut and how to pay for it.

    https://www.google.com/amp/www.stltoday.com/opinion/editorial/editorial-arthur-laffer-is-still-peddling-supply-side-nonsense-trump/article_8ccf961f-41bf-5df1-af32-fc2ba81a019c.amp.html

    Admiral Ben burn (b3d5ab)

  26. Fuhrman has some interesting charts.like

    https://gregmankiw.blogspot.com/2017/11/furman-on-tax-reform.html?m=1

    Admiral Ben burn (b3d5ab)

  27. Bill Moyers went after Reagan for the modest trimming he did, now trump isn’t doing that but they are still caterwalling.

    narciso (4346c7)

  28. There is no tax reform that matters. There is only spending reform. Short-term, for some people good things happen. Rob Peter, pay Paul. Long term, markets adjust. Peter absorbs the new taxes into his costs of doing business. Paul pays the taxes in higher costs, etc. he just doesn’t think he does. Peter pays less than he thinks he does because slowly, over time, he gets that money back by charging more or paying less for Paul’s services because Paul’s competition/cousin absorbs the payment and cuts prices to take business away from Paul. So then Paul lowers his prices to stay competitive. And so on, and so on, and so on. Markets adjust. So long as government sucks WEALTH out of the economy, that WEALTH ultimately has to come from somewhere. If they don’t get it in taxes, they simply print the money. So long as the bastards have us talking about taxes we are not talking about SPENDING. And on, and on, and on it goes. All this blather. From “the smart” people.

    CFarleigh (5b282a)

  29. When tillerson decides some offices in foggy bottom should remain secured, there was gnashing.

    narciso (4346c7)

  30. Of course the genuine goal is the destruction of SS. Reagan did his level best then Dubya made a stab.

    Admiral Ben burn (b3d5ab)

  31. Fine which programs would you cut, how many people will be left bereft of not destitute.

    narciso (4346c7)

  32. Baby Boomers are the demographic to watch.

    Admiral Ben burn (b3d5ab)

  33. I agree, but what other outcome was possible once the decision was made to use the rules of reconciliation?

    Political restraints may justify choosing the reconciliation process but the reconciliation rules and congressional scoring methods limit the ability to do anything other than rearrange taxes and benefits. Every dollar of tax relief must be offset by a dollar raised somewhere else from someone else leading to no net benefit to the budget and numerous complaints from those affected by the changes.

    My gripe with the House and Senate bills is that the tax code will be more progressive and just as complicated as before only different. My solution is the flat tax with highly limited deductions/credits. It’s good enough for Medicare and Social Security (although both need to adjust it for demographic realities) so it ought to be good enough for income earned from any source. Tear up the tax code and shut down the favor factory at its source.

    crazy (d99a88)

  34. So you would prefer to keep the current tax code? You’ve got to deal with the Congress you’ve got, not the one you want.

    This is a good article, by the way, with more light than heat.

    Donaldo (95053d)

  35. It does make some significant points, but ignored the constraints of the system, even if you replaced mcturtle with cornyn.

    narciso (4346c7)

  36. Yertl the Turtle bloviating advice to wait and watch the emerging collapse.

    Admiral Ben burn (b3d5ab)

  37. The Turtle’s wife has been out of the way (and thus good to me, so far).

    urbanleftbehind (5eecdb)

  38. Patterico,

    I understand this post and agree that our massive debt is a catastrophe waiting to happen. We are the grasshopper and winter is coming.

    Yet, no one is willing to address cutting entitlements which is the elephant in the room. Without doing serious cuts, including the eventual end of Social Security and Medicaid, we won’t be able to negotiate our way out of this.

    I don’t see any end other than default and pain.

    NJRob (b00189)

  39. narciso,

    How about making responsible decisions every time we can, instead of trying to fix the problem with every law/budget and then giving up if it can’t be done? In other words, stop digging.

    DRJ (15874d) — 12/4/2017 @ 8:21 am

    Not realistic when you have the left and resident idiots on here claiming that the cure is full socialism.

    When you rob from Peter to give to Paul you can always count on Paul’s support.

    NJRob (b00189)

  40. Need a Constitutional Amendment to limit government spending to no more than 18% GDP. A balanced budget amendment wouldn’t work because that would just encouraging spending and tax increases. Only by tying to to GDP can we control the beast.

    NJRob (b00189)


  41. Not realistic when you have the left and resident idiots on here claiming that the cure is full socialism.

    They actually espouse Selective Socialism™, NJRob. What’s theirs is theirs and what’s ours is half theirs.

    Rev.Hoagie (6bbda7)

  42. It is realistic to be responsible with every decision, especially now that the GOP is in charge of Congress. You can’t keep demonizing the left when you have control, unless you want to lose control. That is what I think will happen in 2018 because the GOP Congress has been so weak and unprincipled.

    DRJ (15874d)

  43. Corporate wise, the drop in rates and repatriation are great ideas.

    But much like the Bush Jr. tax cuts, any tax cut for working people is illusory if you don’t get rid of AMT. The SALT and mortgage deduction eliminations are not bad things, but doesn’t appear there has been much appreciation on how that will impact home sales, values, banking, construction, etc. Wiping out any and all business expenses for people on W2s is a bad deal. Simply looks like they moved around the deck chairs of the working and middle class.

    If they wanted to do something slightly radical to offset the SALT and mortgage interest changes, let people draw on retirement savings with neither tax nor penalty to purchase their primary residence. John Crudele of the NY Post has advocated this for years. It would create a building boom and not cost anyone anything. People need a place to live in retirement anyway. Would also encourage younger people to save for retirement, which is going to be a major issue in the future.The current crazy quilt setup of what is taxable and penalized is a disasters. Alas, this has still not been done.

    Bugg (b7f13d)

  44. But go ahead and complain. It will be good practice if the Democrats win the House and complaining is all you will have.

    DRJ (15874d)

  45. Hoagie:

    Do you make more than $75k?

    If not enjoy paying for Trumps half.

    Admiral Ben burn (b3d5ab)

  46. You can’t keep demonizing the left when you have control, unless you want to lose control. That is what I think will happen in 2018 because the GOP Congress has been so weak and unprincipled.

    A good portion of the GOPe is already on the left. Either directly or they’ve been sufficiently cucked that it really doesn’t matter. If demonizing the left causes you to lose control to the left, well you’re so far gone at that point (and I regretfully believe we are) that it doesn’t really matter. However, if demonizing the left to no effect causes “you”, whoever “you” is, to lose control to someone more forceful on the right, well bad for “you” and good for us. Scaring people to back away from demonizing the left, when the left should rightfully be demonized, is a function of being cucked. But this shouldn’t be about demonizing the “left” itself. It should be about communicating the facts about leftism. The actual leftists themselves are irrelevant. You must fight the ideology. I agree that personal attacks on leftists at some point are not helping. But we should never, ever think twice about demonizing the unsustainable failure that is socialism.

    CFarleigh (5b282a)

  47. The Trump approach is all of nothing, CFarleigh. “I want my way or I quit!” It’s easier but it isn’t the adult way to be.

    DRJ (15874d)

  48. 19. Lazlo Toth (0699ca) — 12/4/2017 @ 8:29 am

    I’d have liked more gradualism on all of this.

    There may wind up there being no change at all in the mortgage interest deduction, because there’s no change at all in the Senate bill, and the final bill will probably follow the Senate bill in most things. Even the mortgage change only applies to mortgages taken out after November 2, 2017 – everything earlier is grandfathered in, as were mortgages in the 1986 tax reform bill. The problem is that people could not affect what the mortgage is, or what to pay for a house, on such short notice. It was ridiculous to treat that as an expiring tax provision that they didn’t want people to rush to take advantage of.

    Most other changes kick in on January 1, 2018, except for the corporate income tax cut in the Senate bill, which takes effect on January 1, 2019 in the Senate bill, creating interesting profit opportunities for big very profitable corporations, where they can make money by selling things at a slight loss.

    (Send out a catalog in late 2018, don’t bill or charge credit cards until after the New year of 2019 – expenses reduce taxes by 35%, but revenue that comes in the next calendar year is only taxed at 20%, so for instance cost of advertising and mailing catalogs and goods is $10,000, gross revenue from sales is only $9,000, but the corporation nets $700, because the expenses reduce taxes by $3,500 – assuming nothing else is lowering the rate – while the $9,000 increases taxes by only $1,800. That’s $1,700 in difference, and minus the $1,000 loss there is $700 net!)

    There is also an important change in the treatment of alimony, but this again, only affects new divorce decrees entered into after December 31, 2017, which in practical terms means Friday, December 29. Till now alimony is treated as deductible to the payer and taxable to the recipient – this will be reversed (unless the Senate changed that)

    Sammy Finkelman (e70ce9)

  49. By the way, it didn’t help with this bill. Where was Trump protecting the little guy here?

    DRJ (15874d)

  50. What will hit suddenly is the elimination of the deduction for state and local income taxes. Many people could wind up underwithholding.

    And even worse:

    The withholding tables, I believe reflect only the standard deduction.

    In places like New York, New Jersey and California, withholding will go down, but taxes will go up!

    Sammy Finkelman (e70ce9)

  51. Sammy:

    What happens to deduction for school supplies? No matter. Nevermind

    Admiral Ben burn (b3d5ab)

  52. Blue collar Blues

    Admiral Ben burn (b3d5ab)

  53. The Constitutional Amendment we need is one that says that taxes will be paid only by people who think people should pay taxes.

    nk (dbc370)

  54. You can’t craft any bill that would guarantee no one was in a special category that might get a tax increase. What I can tell you is that every segment of taxpayers, every category of taxpayers on average gets significant relief,” McConnell said Sunday on CBS News’ “Face the Nation.”

    You go to economic war with the Raygun you have.

    Admiral Ben burn (b3d5ab)

  55. What’s truly amazing is the hard-core conservatives excuses for this travesty. A pox on you.

    Admiral Ben burn (b3d5ab)

  56. By the way, it didn’t help with this bill. Where was Trump protecting the little guy here?

    Yeah. Read my first post. The little guy pays either way. Just like the big guy. The tax code is irrelevant. It’s not the taxing, it’s the spending.

    “I want my way or I quit!”
    You know, I think you’re projecting here. Not on this subject per se, but it’s in the back of your head. Balthazar or wth his name is, accused me of this out of the blue on a discussion of the law a couple weeks ago. Then he put me on his blocked list. It was bizarre. Self awareness factor among lawyer types seems very low. The “my way or I quit” is the very same approach the left is using. Not one single dem was interested in this discussion. Schumer and Pelosi didn’t show up because they were looking for any excuse not to. The left does not bargain in good faith. This has been shown repeatedly for at least the last 8 years and arguably much longer. They have had the media in their pocket, so given their lack of self-respect, there is no reason that they should. They have controlled the message. But now the media has been exposed for the lies they have told and someone is fighting back. This is what a fight looks like. Never seen a pretty one. The Marquis de Queensbury has long been dead.

    CFarleigh (5b282a)

  57. Insult-teflon and knucklehead awareness was a wise genetic choice for maximizing stoopid.

    Admiral Ben burn (b3d5ab)

  58. 19. Lazlo Toth (0699ca) — 12/4/2017 @ 8:29 am

    I don’t like the idea of not being able to figure out next year’s taxes and wondering what will pop up at the end of my TurboTax exercise.

    The IRS has a tax withholding calculator at irs.gov

    https://www.irs.gov/individuals/irs-withholding-calculator

    and a revised one for 2018 will probably be up and running by around April. People who don’t use it could be surprised.

    21. urbanleftbehind (5eecdb) — 12/4/2017 @ 8:34

    Even if a final bill is passed and signed relatively early this month, they should push back Tax Day to perhaps the May 20s, both to allow publication of the updated materials etc for 2017 Tax Year and to make a point about true Tax Freedom Day (which is usually around that time)

    No, nothing affects 2017 except for some mortgages taken out very late in the year, and that only in the house bill.

    And besides which, anyone can postpone the tax filing date, any year, to October 15 (it used to be August 15 and you could file for another extension till October 15, but this has been made simpler and easier to do) You file Form 4868 by April 15, and you should be OK. Every state with an income tax should offer a similar extension (because their taxes are based on what is reported on the federal form)

    Note: If you owe money you will owe interest, and this does not get rid of any penalty. A lot of people come April 2019 may wind up owing money.

    It is possible to send a check without filing a tax return. If you owe more than $1,000 the issue of being required to subsequently file estimated taxes quarterly comes up. To some degree this is a matter of judgment. You never have to file estimated taxes if your expected withholding will equal 100% of your previous years taxes, or at least 90% of your expected taxes. (You could lose income)

    Sammy Finkelman (e70ce9)

  59. Indeed, the passage of the Trump tax cuts will help lay the groundwork for their undoing by increasing the chances Democrats regain control of Congress. The moment Trump won his election last November, he immediately forfeited his most potent advantages: He no longer had the deeply unpopular Hillary Clinton as his opponent, and he lost the advantage of Democratic complacency (which tends to build up over time when their party holds the White House). An anti-Republican wave of some size was always inevitable. But Trump compounded the problem by surrendering another potent advantage: his brand as an economic populist loathed by the financial elite and planning to raise taxes on rich people like himself.

    http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2017/12/the-trump-tax-cuts-for-the-rich-must-and-will-be-repealed.html

    Admiral Ben burn (b3d5ab)

  60. His brand as Economic Populist
    was dead months ago.

    Admiral Ben burn (b3d5ab)

  61. We’re past Hump Day for Trumpism.

    Admiral Ben burn (b3d5ab)

  62. That this is happening with a GOP controlled Congress demonstrates just how little daylight, if any, remains between the Democrats and Republicans. Both sides love to spend, spend, spend while blathering on that we have a revenue problem. They don’t care as the coffers necessary to keep the gravy train running are regularly replenished. We are looking at fiscal restraint and responsibility, and smaller government in the rear view mirror.

    Dana (023079)

  63. You can’t suck Dems into the Trumpublican Tux Bill Dana. Nice try.

    Admiral Ben burn (b3d5ab)

  64. 52, The deduction for school supplies, which is not on Schedule A, but is before Adjusted Gross Income on Line 23 of Form 1040, was eliminated in the House ill, but I think retained in the Senate bill.

    The big education issues are

    1) The student loan interest deduction on Line 33 (eliminated by the House, retained by the Senate) – this has some limitations on the amount of interest deductible – $2,5000 I think – and the level of income someone can have and still deduct it ($80,000)

    2) Taxation of any reduction in tuition for students who perform work in exchange – maybe limited to graduate students or maybe it is to students who also get paid some cash. This is insane. Someone with $30,000 in cash income from a university could be taxed as if they had $80,000 in cash income.

    3) Taxation of some large endowments held by universities.

    Also, fundraisers are concerned many people may no longer itemize deductions. This doesn’t affect small donations but could affect really large ones. They wanted the bill to at least allow deductions of any charitable donations to the extent they exceed 2% of adjusted growth income, over and above the standard deduction, but they didn’t get it.

    Sammy Finkelman (e70ce9)

  65. There may, in fact, be little difference between the two parties. They pretend to fight as they line their own pockets and spend us into oblivion.

    Colonel Haiku (11439f)

  66. http://www.mcclatchydc.com/news/politics-government/white-house/article187562198.html

    Preserved in Senate version? Thanks Sammy and thanks fer nuttin’ McTurtle.

    Admiral Ben burn (b3d5ab)

  67. Rear Admiral needs Kaopectate for his diarrhea of teh mouth. He is mincing so frantically that may combust!

    Colonel Haiku (11439f)

  68. Maybe haiku but the Democratic Party will still be here.

    Admiral Ben burn (b3d5ab)

  69. Haiku: I’m waiting for some speed chess players to step up…alas.

    Admiral Ben burn (b3d5ab)

  70. But go ahead and complain. It will be good practice if the Democrats win the House and complaining is all you will have.

    DRJ (15874d) — 12/4/2017 @ 9:51 am

    Or you can go teh Rep. Joe Barton “Texas Route”!!!

    Colonel Haiku (11439f)

  71. I guarantee you that any bill that retains the AMT will be vetoed. It’s the thing that screws Trump every year and makes that YUGE loss he took meaningless. The return that was outed showed him with a minuscule tax by regular methods, and about 20% tax on AGI by AMT.

    Kevin M (752a26)

  72. Look at the mooks we have to try to appeal to, Portman veruca salt, fideloflake.

    narciso (4346c7)

  73. 60. If the IRS determines that should have filed estimated taxes, but you didn’t you may get charged a penalty.

    Anyway I think a lot of people in states like California could wind up underwithholding in 2018 if they are not careful, but maybe that only hits at upper middle to high levels of income. There’s probably several thousand dollars worth of tax refunds per year that would need to be wiped out.

    Sammy Finkelman (e70ce9)

  74. THE BILL WILL ADD TO THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT’S ALREADY CRUSHING DEBT

    As would the status quo. The hope is that our fun new tax system leads to a better rate of economic growth that will help change the complexion of our very serious fiscal problems for the better.

    THE BILL HIKES TAXES ON THE PROFESSIONAL MIDDLE CLASS TO GIVE TAX BREAKS TO SUPER-WEALTHY DONORS

    Here you seem to mostly be talking about the elimination of some of the SALT deductions. This is actually one of the most reform-minded features of what’s been passed.

    Here’s how I think about this.

    Remember how our fascist democrat friends want to thwart the Electoral College?

    A bunch of states team up and give all their electoral college votes to the nationwide popular-vote winner, regardless of who won the most votes in their state. Then, the candidate who garners the most citizen votes in the country moves into the White House.

    Legislative houses in Colorado and California have recently approved this plan, known as the National Popular Vote proposal, taking it partway to passage.

    okie dokie. Daddy Soros likes some creepy-ass will to power crap all up in it.

    Ok so remember why Team R likes to cut taxes.

    Lower tax burdens helps keep more monies in the hands of the wealth-creating private sector and leaves less capital in the hands of the wealth-destroying federal government. Yay!

    But just a handful of states could say ok…

    So the federal government wants to cut taxes and help the economy boom by lowering taxes by N.

    What say we *raise* taxes by N and thwart this new economic policy? Done and done.

    So there you go.

    Eliminating the SALT deduction makes it much much more difficult for this sort of thwarting ploy to succeed.

    REPEALING THE INDIVIDUAL MANDATE WITHOUT REPEALING OBAMACARE WILL DRIVE UP PREMIUMS EVEN MORE

    In economic parlance this falls under the heading of “too bad so sad.” The fascist federal government, notwithstanding what a constitution-defiling harvardtrash p.o.s. like John Roberts may think, has no right to mandate the purchase of health insurance.

    If that’s not a core principle there are none to be found what are worthy of the name.

    THE BILL DOESN’T REALLY SIMPLIFY DOING TAXES

    On balance the bill doesn’t make doing taxes particularly more complicated either.

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  75. You mistake the central flaw in Obamacare — that it put 5 million American (self-employed) families alone in the National Sacrifice Zone by merging their insurance pool with one containing the medically-needy never-insured, and then capping the costs for the latter and not giving a fig for the costs imposed on the former.

    The extreme case of this cost-transfer is seen in this year’s CA exchange program, where a 10% surcharge is put on all Silver plans sold through the CoveredCA. Since the federal subsidies are keyed to the cost of the Silver plans, this surcharge has no effect on the subsidized. Non-subsidized folks who are foolish enough to buy through the Exchange will pay it of course. It’s fully in the spirit of Obamacare.

    Kevin M (752a26)

  76. Ben Burn, my point was that there is no difference between big spending Dems and the equally big spending Republicans, no matter how much the latter beg to differ.

    Dana (023079)

  77. 22 years with the same Dr.has come to an end because of mittens and his hoar jonathon gruber. I would run either one of these somebiotches over if I ever see them within miles of my vehicle. Mittens and his gruber is what real republican betrayal looks like.
    Seriously, I will back up over their traitorous azzes to make sure they don’t fu## with anyone else.

    mg (60b0f7)

  78. On balance the bill doesn’t make doing taxes particularly more complicated either.

    The pass-through provisions for LLCs and such are incredibly complicated.

    Kevin M (752a26)

  79. I just wrote my Republican Congressman–we’d be better off without any reform than this mess. The GOP has both houses of Congress and the Presidency and they still can’t seem to get anything done right.

    I understand now why voters stay home.

    ROCHF (877dba)

  80. your wasting lead or ink, ROCHF

    mg (60b0f7)

  81. CNBC

    Federal Reserve Chair Janet Yellen said the central bank is concerned with growth get out of hand and thus is committed to continuing to raise rates in a gradual manner.
    “We don’t want to cause a boom-bust condition in the economy,” Yellen told Congress in her semiannual testimony Wednesday.
    While Yellen did not specifically commit to a December rate hike, her comments indicated that her views have not changed with her desire for the central bank to continue normalizing policy after years of historically high accommodation.

    Admiral Ben burn (b3d5ab)

  82. Dana

    Ok. It seemed a little out of balance.

    Admiral Ben burn (b3d5ab)

  83. Yellen’s Concern was never expressed during the 8 long years of teh Obama Regime.

    Colonel Haiku (11439f)

  84. The pass-through provisions for LLCs and such are incredibly complicated.

    but number one nobody with an LLC has any intention of doing their own taxes

    and number two the software for this will be in place in two shakes of a lamb’s tail (have that for ya in a jiff!)

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  85. Need a Constitutional Amendment to limit government spending to no more than 18% GDP. A balanced budget amendment wouldn’t work because that would just encouraging spending and tax increases. Only by tying to to GDP can we control the beast.

    Yes. This. CA has a balanced budget requirement, yet it spends in deficit more often than not. You just lie about projected income, easy-peasy.

    My preferred amendment is this:

    Federal expenditures during any fiscal year cannot exceed ___% of the average GDP of the three preceding years. Expenditures above this amount require 2/3rds approval in each House in a bill separately presented to the President.

    Incidentally, the servo feedback in this formula allows Keynesian spending in recessions, coupling it with mandatory Keynesian savings in boom years.

    Kevin M (752a26)

  86. @78

    Ben Burn, my point was that there is no difference between big spending Dems and the equally big spending Republicans, no matter how much the latter beg to differ.

    There is a difference, in that the Democrats are willing to come up with a strategy to pay for their spending. The cliche may be “Tax and Spend Democrats”, but I suggest that this is better than “Borrow and Spend Republicans”.

    Davethulhu (fab944)

  87. This bill would be vastly improved by raising the corporate rate to, say, 22% and restoring the personal exemptions, making the SALT deduction a single-tax elective and perhaps lowering the 25% middle-class bracket a bit further.

    Kevin M (752a26)

  88. You just lie about projected income, easy-peasy.

    This. There is no law that will fix a moral problem. Spending more than you take in, taking from others to play Santa Claus to third parties is a moral failure. Morals are beyond the power of the law. Pass laws, amendments, hell get yourself a whole new constitution. Does not matter if you can’t control your appetites. There are times to go into debt. But if you can’t discipline yourself, you will be perpetually in debt. Not to the Chinese, Japanese, or anyone else, but to future generations. You can default on debt to others but future generations will pay the price for that one way or another.

    CFarleigh (5b282a)

  89. Democrats: Tax and Spend
    Republicans: Borrow and Spend
    Patterico: Tax and Don’t Spend
    Libertarians: Don’t tax and Don’t spend

    Kevin M (752a26)

  90. > raises taxes on many in the professional middle class

    Analytically, there is a degree to which the political movement of Trumpism is a coalition between the wealthy and the white working class put together *specifically* to stick it to the professional middle class, whom the wealthy see as an easy target and who the white working class see as cultural enemies who are the proximate cause for all of their ills.

    There’s lots of historic precedent for that. It very rarely ends well.

    aphrael (e0cdc9)

  91. Better:

    Democrats: Tax and Spend
    Republicans: Spend and Don’t Tax
    Patterico: Tax and Don’t Spend
    Libertarians: Don’t Tax and Don’t Spend

    Kevin M (752a26)

  92. This bill would be vastly improved by raising the corporate rate to, say, 22% and restoring the personal exemptions, making the SALT deduction a single-tax elective and perhaps lowering the 25% middle-class bracket a bit further.

    yeah you’re all about keeping it simple

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  93. Aphrael

    Add in the punishment of blue states. Setting themselves up for vengeful progressives so angry they could let air out of tires.

    Admiral Ben burn (b3d5ab)

  94. Admiral Ben burn — part of the reason that I am so filled with despair over politics is that each side is now resorting to tactics which will inflame the other, and feeling like the other’s previous tactics justify it. It’s hard to see how that ends.

    aphrael (e0cdc9)

  95. there is a degree to which the political movement of Trumpism is a coalition between the wealthy and the white working class put together *specifically* to stick it to the professional middle class

    Yes. The college-educated and professional classes that looked down on the great mass of working-class folks and considered anyone without a college degree unemployable were largely the pinata that Trump swung at.

    Also the coastal elites vs fly-over country, New Age vs Tradition, cosmopolitan vs small town, etc.

    So, it’s no surprise that Trumpism doesn’t care a lot about California or New York lawyers (or doctors, engineers, etc).

    Kevin M (752a26)

  96. yeah you’re all about keeping it simple

    That would be no more or less complicated than current law, and would remove the larger hits on the middle class. You do understand that the removal of the personal exemptions pretty much wipes out the increased standard exemption, and is a HUGE hit on anyone who itemizes? Choco rations, etc.

    Kevin M (752a26)

  97. What is actually ironic about this plan, from a Trumpism stand point, is that it takes from Main Street and gives to Wall Street. THAT is not what he ran on. The pass-through provisions that are supposed to help Main Street are pretty niggardly; only the doubling of the Estate Tax threshold particularly helps, but you have to die to claim it.

    Kevin M (752a26)

  98. aphrael, as long as we’re choosing sides, I want to be on the side that likes girls.

    Steve57 (0b1dac)

  99. That Iraqi oil tanker sailed Admiral. I assume you were more supportive of Clintons Welfare to Work War?

    When Johnson declared war on poverty Marcel Ledbetter came out with his hands up and said,” I surrender!”

    Pinandpuller (133f9b)

  100. How is that war going btw?

    Pinandpuller (133f9b)

  101. You don’t need to speak Portagee to know EXACTLY what she’s saying.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=39&v=YomccCQyP5k

    Pérola – Fala Do Que Quiseres [Official Video]

    But I did happen to date a woman from Mozambique.

    Like that’s an accomplishment.

    Steve57 (0b1dac)

  102. > What is actually ironic about this plan, from a Trumpism stand point, is that it takes from Main Street and gives to Wall Street.

    Of course it does.

    The Republican donor class doesn’t actually *care* about Main street. It does a good job of pretending to to attract votes, but that doesn’t mean its policies are pro-Main-street.

    But it’s very, very good at misleading.

    aphrael (e0cdc9)

  103. Aphrael

    Your concerns are well founded but I don’t give a fig for their threats should Trump get dumped.

    Admiral Ben burn (b3d5ab)

  104. They’re like Vikings with wooden swords. Lots of noise but little real damage.

    Admiral Ben burn (b3d5ab)

  105. I can’t speak to KS and CA but TN is RTW and has no state income tax and is a growing thriving state. Looking at one factor like how much do wealthy people pay in taxes is the product of a simple mind.

    Pinandpuller (133f9b)

  106. Time to go after these sh*theels!!!

    “CLAIM: IRS Losing $458 Billion a Year but Not Trying to Collect It.”

    https://pjmedia.com/news-and-politics/senator-irs-losing-458-billion-year-not-trying-collect/

    Colonel Haiku (9298f8)

  107. Admiral ben burn — if the Democrats retake the Senate, no Trump Supreme Court nominee will be confirmed.

    I think this is *wrong*, but the die is cast, and it’s too late to uncast it.

    aphrael (e0cdc9)

  108. I’m not a huge fan of wars. I received medical care in a Navy Hospital. During Vietnam. I was a Coast Guard brat. From earliest childhood I got to see passageways lined with amputees and the horribly burned. Just as soon as I could I signed up. My Dad, the sainted Senior Chief, insisted I become an officer first.

    Better me than someone who doesn’t know what they’re getting into.

    Before the USS Stark the Navy trained to combat fires up 1800dg. After the Stark …

    …The first missile punched through the hull near the port bridge wing, eight feet above the waterline. It bored a flaming hole through berthing spaces, the post office, and the ship’s store, spewing rocket propellant along its path. Burning at 3,500 degrees, the weapon ground to a halt in a corner of the chiefs’ quarters, and failed to explode. The second missile, which hit five feet farther forward, detonated as designed. The fire burned for almost a day, incinerating the crew’s quarters, the radar room, and the combat information center…

    I grew up deathly afraid of being burned alive. You can goddammed bet I trained.

    Oh, I joined the nav shortly after the stark.

    Steve57 (0b1dac)


  109. Looking at one factor like how much do wealthy people pay in taxes is the product of a simple mind.

    Please don’t offend the trolls.

    Rev.Hoagie (6bbda7)

  110. CA famously lost Breaking Bad to NM because of taxes.

    Pinandpuller (133f9b)

  111. I only wish Rev Hoagie.

    Pinandpuller (133f9b)

  112. Chesty Puller famously said, we’ve been looking for the enemy for quite some time. We’ve found them. They’re all around us. That greatly simplifies the situation.

    Steve57 (0b1dac)

  113. So, if I buy an ad with that Grassley quote, and nothing else, is it considered a political attack ad? (Will I have to file a bunch of paperwork with the state or federal authorities?)

    “I think not having the estate tax recognizes the people that are investing, as opposed to those that are just spending every darn penny they have, whether it’s on booze or women or movies.” Chuck

    noel (b4d580)

  114. Rev Hoagie

    I’m surprised he hasn’t started calling himself Cardinal Ben Burn to mock you.

    Pinandpuller (133f9b)

  115. booze is ok cause depending on which kind you get it probably won’t have a lot of carbs

    i think that’s all Senator Grassley was trying to say there

    what kind of loser spends money on movies anymore

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  116. here’s $20!

    may i please to see Jennifer Lawrence dry-hump an older daddy figure who is paid 25% more than she is because patriarchy?

    thanks!

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  117. OK, if Chesty Puller didn’t say it, I will. Next chance I get.

    Steve57 (0b1dac)

  118. If you can’t trust Angry Zen Master, who can you trust?

    http://www.angryzenmaster.com/2009/01/16/million-dollar-virgin/

    Steve57 (0b1dac)

  119. Good article overall, although I am sorry to see the usual, misleading trope about “fixing spending”.

    “Fixing spending” means “fixing entitlements”.

    In the last 50 years, the smallest percentage of GDP spent by the government was in 2000 (17.9%), compared to 2016 (20.9%). The 3% difference is MORE than accounted for by Social Security, Medicare and other health-related entitlements:

    +4.2% of GDP: Social Security, Medicare, other entitlements
    +0.3% of GDP: Defense
    -1.5% of GDP: Everything else

    Present levels of non-defense discretionary spending are already 1.5% of GDP LOWER than in the year with modern-day record low spending.

    Zeroing out non-defense discretionary spending entirely would still not quite balance the budget, and the shortfall due to entitlement growth would continue to widen in future years.

    Talking about “fixing spending” without saying “entitlements” is at best extremely misleading, and at worst, downright harmful (if it leads people to ignore the real problem). It’s like a 3-pack-a-day smoker worrying about getting cancer from a chest x-ray.

    Dave (445e97)

  120. Bishop Ben burn has a nice ring to it, Pinandpuller. But the comrades are anti-theist so I doubt it. Think about it. We knew him when he was just the lowly Commissar of Tractor Barn #5. The man is coming up in this brave new revolution.

    Rev.Hoagie (6bbda7)

  121. USA Today propaganda slut William Cummings has did the thinkings on how you can cope if you find yourself getting the short end of the tax stick

    If walking to work is an option for you, there is no cheaper way to get to work.

    Thanks William! Good stuff.

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  122. Talking about “fixing spending” without saying “entitlements” is at best extremely misleading

    Somebody help me out here because I’m just a dumb engineer and don’t do all the lawyerly jibber jabber that’s all up in it (as the saying goes)…Is there some contortion of the language such that “entitlements” are not a subset of “spending”?

    CFarleigh (5b282a)

  123. Is there some contortion of the language such that “entitlements” are not a subset of “spending”?

    The Democrats, as well as Donald Trump and some of his cultists, like to pretend that the budget deficit isn’t about entitlements.

    Dave (445e97)

  124. The Democrats, as well as Donald Trump and some of his cultists, like to pretend that the budget deficit isn’t about entitlements.

    Some people like to pretend that they’re not talking about Social Security when they use the word “entitlements”. Thus their use of the word “entitlements”. Kinda like when they say “single payer” when they mean “government payer”.

    In the context of Social Security, some people like to pretend that the portion the corporations put into the fund came from the corporation and not from the labor of the person who did the actual work. Lots of pretending going on. It’s like DC is a wonderful land of make believe.

    CFarleigh (5b282a)

  125. @CFarleigh:Is there some contortion of the language such that “entitlements” are not a subset of “spending”?

    Yes, the language distortion is “mandatory” spending. No Congress can bind any future Congress, so “mandatory” spending can also be changed. But there are people who like to pretend that Social Security and Medicare came down from on high like the 10 Commandments. Entitlements can be reformed at any time enough of Congress chooses to do so, and will be reformed (whether Congress chooses or not) when they consume such a high percentage of tax revenue that other essential functions are impossible.

    Congress chooses not to reform “mandatory” spending, because they believe (perhaps rightly) that if they try they’ll be run out of office if they try. But that doesn’t mean they can’t, it means they won’t. Until events force a reform, an ugly and unplanned one.

    Frederick (64d4e1)

  126. Also note, some people like to pretend that Social Security funds go to retirees not to drunks, drug addicts, “disabled” (as opposed to disabled and unreasonably able to work…which is what “disabled” used to mean)

    CFarleigh (5b282a)

  127. If SS is on the Eve of Destruction I suppose it’s Adam Smith’s fault.

    Pinandpuller (133f9b)

  128. What in the budget to cut? Anything which gives a penny to a Democrat.

    Ingot (e5bf64)

  129. @125

    He ain’t heavy, he’s my coworker.

    Pinandpuller (133f9b)

  130. Haven’t you ever heard of a bishopric{k]?

    Pinandpuller (133f9b)

  131. Anything which gives a penny to a Democrat.

    Well that’s a start. The F-35 would be a good start as well. Lockheed stock has quadrupled since 2008 or so. Not one more penny should they get until all contracted F-35’s and the related logistics systems are completed. If they don’t like it, give the contract to someone else. NASA “space” program needs to go as well. Numerous others to be cut. But that’s a start.

    CFarleigh (5b282a)

  132. Cleek’s Law
    Today’s conservatism is the opposite of what liberals want today, updated daily.

    updated

    Admiral Ben burn (b3d5ab)

  133. No Congress can bind any future Congress, so “mandatory” spending can also be changed.

    No Congress can bind any future Congress by law, but they can and do bind them politically. Compared to that, the law is a trifling matter.

    Dave (445e97)

  134. Of course y’all see yourselves as for real conservatives.

    Admiral Ben burn (b3d5ab)

  135. On the unseen hand please take note of the fickle middle finger of fate.

    Pinandpuller (133f9b)

  136. BB is TOTS to take his pension in loneliness and alcohol per Billy Squier.

    Pinandpuller (133f9b)

  137. @Dave:No Congress can bind any future Congress by law, but they can and do bind them politically.

    I already acknowledged Congress doesn’t want to reform entitlements. “Political binding” is a contradiction in terms, because anything that is under political control is by definition not defined by law. It’s the sort of self-contradiction anyone has to resort to in order to talk about “mandatory spending” as though it is something Congress’s hands are tied about. It’s not.

    Compared to that, the law is a trifling matter.

    Yes, of course, Congress controls what the law is. That they choose not to change the laws tells us all we need to know; that people pretend the laws just fell from the sky on Congress so we have no choice but to spend this money this way ALSO tells us all we need to know.

    Frederick (64d4e1)

  138. NASA “space” program needs to go as well.

    Yes, eliminating that 0.1% of GDP spending will make all the difference, and having a space program to help promote science, education and space-related entrepreneurship brings no benefits.

    Leave science, technology and space to the Chinese, Russians and Europeans!

    Dave (445e97)

  139. 140

    Does anyone, including you comprehend your fragile psychology?

    Oh. I forgot hoagie.

    Admiral Ben burn (b3d5ab)

  140. 142

    It’s the principle..

    Admiral Ben burn (b3d5ab)

  141. Federal Reserve Chair Janet Yellen said the central bank is concerned with growth get out of hand and thus is committed to continuing to raise rates in a gradual manner.

    If the Federal Reserve Board is going to try to keep economic growth at a level below 2% what’s the point of anything else anyone does??

    Sammy Finkelman (e70ce9)

  142. No one wants to talk about the 3rd rail the Pentagon.

    Does every recruit need safety eyewear whose +++retail suggested price is a bargain when absurd MILSPEC morons triple IT?

    More waste examples available on demand.

    Admiral Ben burn (b3d5ab)

  143. 145

    Exactly. Growth is the enemy.

    Admiral Ben burn (b3d5ab)

  144. This entire post should have been sponsored; tagged w/a seriously fearful William Devane swingin’ his putter on the 18th hole peddling gold and silver bullion pleading, “What’s in your safe?!”

    The kids will do fine in their own time. They always do.
    _________

    U.S. Corporations That Pay No Taxes

    https://moneymorning.com/2015/05/21/chart-u-s-corporations-that-pay-no-taxes/

    Study says most corporations pay no U.S. income taxes

    https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-taxes-corporations/study-says-most-corporations-pay-no-u-s-income-taxes-idUSN1249465620080812

    And as Sir Willard of Romney Marsh quipped, “Corporations are people my friend…”
    ________

    How Accurate Are CBO’s Forecasts?

    “Accuracy is the degree to which forecast values are dispersed around actual outcomes. One widely used measure of accuracy is the root mean square error. By that measure, the forecasts by CBO, the Administration, and the Blue Chip consensus have been about equally accurate over two-year periods as well as over five-year periods. CBO’s evaluation finds this:

    – Among two-year forecasts by CBO since the early 1980s, forecast values deviated from actual outcomes by 1.4 percentage points per year for real (inflation-adjusted) output growth and by 0.8 percentage points per year for inflation in the consumer price index.

    – Among five-year forecasts by CBO since the early 1980s, forecast values deviated from actual outcomes by 1.2 percentage points per year for real output growth and by 0.6 percentage points per year for inflation in the consumer price index.

    How Do CBO’s Assumptions About Fiscal Policy Affect Forecasting Errors?

    CBO constructs its economic projections under the assumption that federal fiscal policy will follow current law, thereby providing a benchmark for lawmakers as they consider potential changes in the law. In contrast, the Administration’s forecasts assume the adoption of policies reflected in the President’s proposed budget. Forecasters in the private sector (represented in the Blue Chip consensus) form their own assumptions about the future stance of federal fiscal policy, which may anticipate changes in law.

    Differences between forecasts, and thus differences in forecasting errors, sometimes arise from different assumptions about fiscal policy, particularly when policymakers are considering major changes to current law. For example, in 2009 and 2010, different fiscal policy assumptions caused CBO’s two-year forecasts of real output growth to diverge noticeably from those of the Administration and the Blue Chip consensus.”

    https://www.cbo.gov/publication/43846

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  145. Btw that eyewear cost us 140 bucks times 3 or 4 hundred thousand give or take a small city

    Admiral Ben burn (b3d5ab)

  146. ‘The GOP Tax Bill: A Betrayal of Conservative Values’

    “When the legend becomes fact, print the legend.” – Maxwell Scott [Carleton Young] ‘The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance’ 1962

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  147. I haven’t even gotten to the f-35

    Admiral Ben burn (b3d5ab)

  148. When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro

    -Hunter S. Thompson.

    Admiral Ben burn (b3d5ab)

  149. “Washington (CNN)- A former top counterintelligence expert at the FBI, now at the center of a political uproar for exchanging private messages that appeared to mock President Donald Trump, changed a key phrase in former FBI Director James Comey’s description of how former secretary of state Hillary Clinton handled classified information, according to US officials familiar with the matter……

    …….The shift from “grossly negligent” to “extremely careless,” which may appear pedestrian at first glance, reflected a decision by the FBI that could have had potentially significant legal implications, as the federal law governing the mishandling of classified material establishes criminal penalties for “gross negligence.””

    https://youtu.be/pdFl__NlOpA

    harkin (e12c28)

  150. Hillary lost Harkin

    Nice defection…

    Admiral Ben burn (b3d5ab)

  151. DefLection..

    Admiral Ben burn (b3d5ab)

  152. I already acknowledged Congress the electorate doesn’t want to reform entitlements.

    Fixed.

    Yes, of course, Congress controls what the law is. That they choose not to change the laws tells us all we need to know; that people pretend the laws just fell from the sky on Congress so we have no choice but to spend this money this way ALSO tells us all we need to know.

    Congress, however imperfectly, reflects the will of the electorate. Are you suggesting that there is widespread popular support for entitlement reform, and that a refractory congress is thwarting it?

    I think the situation is quite different. There are conservatives in Congress who recognize that entitlement reform is essential, but without political support outside the beltway, nobody is going to end their career by proposing or voting for the sacrifices that would be required, in some suicidal gesture of futility.

    People generally do, however, have at least a vague understanding that increasing the debt is a bad thing. This is why I think it’s important to highlight the clear connection between that, and the ruinous growth of (what is called) entitlement spending, rather than the Trump-ian lie that (what is called) discretionary spending is responsible.

    Remember, Trump told people he could eliminate the $20T national debt in eight years … by renegotiating trade deals with China. And despite the breath-taking ignorance exposed by that lie, people still voted for him.

    Dave (445e97)

  153. 98. Kevin M (752a26) — 12/4/2017 @ 11:33 am

    and would remove the larger hits on the middle class. You do understand that the removal of the personal exemptions pretty much wipes out the increased standard exemption, and is a HUGE hit on anyone who itemizes? Choco rations, etc

    The other big factors are:

    1) The doubling (in the Senate bill – the House bill raises it to $1600) of the child tax credit.

    Some caveats:

    (a) The increase expires, but they don’t want it to expire, but they did it to stay within the budget resolution.

    (b) The child tax credit is now, for the first time, indexed to inflation, but the second $1,000 is not.

    (c) The second $1,000 is not refundable, (the first one is, at least in part, in current law – use Schedule 8812 and enter on Line 67 – the regular child tax credit in entered in Line 52) but Marco Rubio wanted to make it refundable against payroll taxes, and maybe he can that in conference committee

    2) The personal exemption is not abolished without replacement. It is replaced by a $300 – that’s a 3 with two zeroes – credit for the signers of the return and those dependents not eligible for the child tax credit.

    3) Income tax rates are somewhat lower or start at a higher level of income. From now on, the indexing for inflation will use chained-CPI, which is expected to show less inflation than just plain old CPI.

    4) The second personal exemption for the elderly (over age 65) and blind is gone altogether – no $300 for that.

    It’s called the standard deduction by the way. It differs depending on whether someone is single, a married, head of household (has a dependent but is not married) Married filing separately takes the standard deduction for a single person but if one spouse itemizes, the other must.

    Sammy Finkelman (e70ce9)

  154. Winning

    He promised a total ban on Muslim immigration. When will he keep his promise?

    Dave (445e97)

  155. Only mittens could warm your hands, Dave.

    mg (60b0f7)

  156. @135. NASA “space” program needs to go as well.

    Look, stupid, in 1961 President Kennedy challenged Americans to put a man on the moon by the end of that decade. Today virtually all of the modern gadgets you play with and depend on – from the digital porn on your tablet to the satellite that beams it to you- can be sourced to the technical R&D boom, IC and computer miniaturization demands kindled chiefly by NASA in that era.

    What does merit review is why there are several different U.S. space agencies- overt, covert and military- operating within the U.S. government- by far the biggest budgeting going to those in military and black-ops. Consolidation is long overdue.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  157. @Dave:Fixed.

    No, you broke it. Congress has that power to do this now. They choose not to do it. It does not matter why they choose not to. It is their choice and they have and do choose it.

    The “electorate” did not choose Obamacare, Congress passed it and a lot of seats changed hands not long after. They could do the same with Social Security and Medicare. They don’t wanna, that’s all.

    Are you suggesting that there is widespread popular support for entitlement reform, and that a refractory congress is thwarting it?

    Huh. I bet if you polled “Should Congress reform entitlements” you would get like 95% agreement. Where you would get disagreement is what should be reformed and how. There’s no national consensus on what reform should take. Totally irrelevant.

    Nonetheless, the indisputable fact is that these entitlements would change if 51% of both houses chose to do so. Whether those Congressmen would be around after the next election is totally beside the point. They are making a choice.

    A majority of Congress cannot be found to agree on any number of things. “Mandatory” spending as distinct from other spending is no different. It is only brought up to confuse the issue.

    Congress can decide whatever it likes, within the Constitution. They are making choices and I do not absolve them from their responsibilities.

    Frederick (64d4e1)

  158. The only stupidity associated with NASA is the brain dead idea of sending humans versus robots into the darkness. You anti science bots need a reboot.

    Admiral Ben burn (b3d5ab)

  159. The wookie/cichrane ratio is high.

    narciso (d1f714)

  160. You conservatism engineers think waste and avarice are your your special terriory . ONE dimensional thinkers needbreplacements.

    Admiral Ben burn (b3d5ab)

  161. NASA “space” program needs to go as well.

    Why is space in quotes? Do you think the moon landing was a hoax? Are you a flat earther?

    Davethulhu (fab944)

  162. Dear Baby Boomers,

    Please keep listening to the smart people who told you butter, eggs and bacon are bad for you.

    Sincerely

    Generation X

    Pinandpuller (75a92d)

  163. There hasn’t been one in eight years, and not much of one for the last 12 years

    narciso (d1f714)

  164. @151. Ben, back in the day, weapons systems were costed out to be affordable– and disposable, as happens in war. Today they’re simply costly.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  165. “Hillary lost”

    Imagine how much she’d have lost by with an honest media and FBI.

    It’s like the people who said “lock her up” knew something.

    harkin (e12c28)

  166. For you space men
    https://video.search.yahoo.com/yhs/search;_ylt=A0LEV7tazCVa8zMARF8PxQt.;_ylu=X3oDMTByMjB0aG5zBGNvbG8DYmYxBHBvcwMxBHZ0aWQDBHNlYwNzYw–?p=swingin+on+the+moon+music+mel+torme&fr=yhs-Lkry-SF01&hspart=Lkry&hsimp=yhs-SF01#id=1&vid=f60e18210407ca1acc0c8ce39725344b&action=view

    mg (60b0f7)

  167. The rizzotto tray press still has considerable reach, unfortunately.

    narciso (d1f714)

  168. It’s like the people who said “lock her up” knew something.

    That plays great before the election — now we don’t care, right?

    Davethulhu (fab944)

  169. never mind.
    Mel Torme – swinging on the moon

    mg (60b0f7)

  170. @167: Dear Baby Boomers, Please keep listening to the smart people who told you butter, eggs and bacon are bad for you. Sincerely, Generation X

    Dear PP:

    “Those were thought to be unhealthy… precisely the opposite of what we now know to be true.” – Dr. Argon [John McLiam] ‘Sleeper’ 1973

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  171. @166 DCT

    The scare quotes are supposed to go around “Muslim Outreach”.

    Pinandpuller (75a92d)

  172. @163. The only stupidity associated with NASA is the brain dead idea of sending humans versus robots into the darkness.

    Save yourself: don’t go there.

    “People have always gone where they have been able to go.” – Michael Collins, CMP, Apollo 11, July, 1989, NASM address, Washington, D.C.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  173. Yes, eliminating that 0.1% of GDP spending will make all the difference, and having a space program to help promote science, education and space-related entrepreneurship brings no benefits.

    Leave science, technology and space to the Chinese, Russians and Europeans!

    This right here is the reason we have huge deficits. Because of the 0.1% factor I almost left NASA out but changed my mind for this very reason. It’s all 0.1%. We can never cut a damn thing because “it’s not enough”. But mostly included it because it’s a sacred cow. NASA wastes TONS of money. I know this because I processed Space Shuttles for 4 1/2 years. Which leads me to:

    Look, stupid, in 1961 President Kennedy challenged Americans to put a man on the moon by the end of that decade. Today virtually all of the modern gadgets you play with and depend on – from the digital porn on your tablet to the satellite that beams it to you- can be sourced to the technical R&D boom, IC and computer miniaturization demands kindled chiefly by NASA in that era.

    What does merit review is why there are several different U.S. space agencies- overt, covert and military- operating within the U.S. government- by far the biggest budgeting going to those in military and black-ops. Consolidation is long overdue.

    Stupid, eh? What the living eff do you know? Ever processed a space vehicle? Ever seen dozens and dozens of engineers sitting around on their butts waiting for their very narrow amount of expertise to be needed? Ever talked with engineers frustrated to no end because when they have work to do they have to coordinate with half a dozen unionized “techs” with their various break times, lunch times, sick times, hungover times? Have you ever run a major engineering project yourself? Have you, Stupid? As for this specific part:
    Today virtually all of the modern gadgets you play with and depend on – from the digital porn on your tablet to the satellite that beams it to you- can be sourced to the technical R&D boom, IC and computer miniaturization demands kindled chiefly by NASA in that era.

    You know even less about economics, and especially opportunity costs, than you know about engineering, Stupid. Let me guess, are you another worthless lawyer? Double you tee eff do you do for a living?

    CFarleigh (094b61)

  174. @175 DCSCA

    Exactly my point. I will buy you a lifetime supply of Rapeseed Oil. Some folks call that five years of Canola. And there’s isn’t much difference between sh!t and Canola.

    Pinandpuller (75a92d)

  175. I bet if you polled “Should Congress reform entitlements” you would get like 95% agreement. Where you would get disagreement is what should be reformed and how. There’s no national consensus on what reform should take.

    We were talking specifically about cutting spending.

    And you would lose your bet, spectacularly.

    Congress can decide whatever it likes, within the Constitution. They are making choices and I do not absolve them from their responsibilities.

    So you think Congress should completely ignore the will of the people who elected them? Interesting.

    Dave (445e97)

  176. Perhaps Patterico is prejudiced against the bill for the same reason I am. It will increase the tax on us Californians.

    David in Cal (2b55d5)

  177. NASA “space” program needs to go as well.

    Why is space in quotes? Do you think the moon landing was a hoax? Are you a flat earther?

    No, are you an idiot who infers much from little? I was in a bit of a rush so I short handed to differentiate space from NASA’s other aeronautical responsibilities. I was also kinda making a joke about the vacuousness of it. Proof reading it now I see that it didn’t come across as fully as I intended.

    CFarleigh (094b61)

  178. “That plays great before the election — now we don’t want any info that shows the FBI let Hillary off the hook for criminal behavior but pursues Trump appointees for non-criminal”

    Fyp

    It’s interesting that so many who said accusations about her were lies before the election now say it doesn’t matter because she lost.

    harkin (e12c28)

  179. @178. =sigh= Doubling down on being ‘farleigh stupid’ only makes you read doubly stupid, stupid. Now go play with your tablet.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  180. I would agree that if we must be funding space exploration via government (why we MUST is basically Keynesian BS but I think I covered that already), unmanned is the way to go. Creating a second earth in the vacuum of space, distant from any realistic rescue hope, essentially defeats any other purpose of such a mission.

    CFarleigh (094b61)

  181. @183

    You know I was quoting Trump, right?

    Davethulhu (fab944)

  182. I was just listening to Vinnie Tortorich. He said Italians call Canola “lampara” because they use it as lamp oil. The best thing you can do with it in America is dump it out on the ground for all your hommies.

    Pinandpuller (75a92d)

  183. Doubling down on being ‘farleigh stupid’ only makes you read doubly stupid, stupid. Now go play with your tablet.

    Sooo, doubling down on simple insults and calling me stupid supports your argument you thinks? Please answer my question:

    Ever processed a space vehicle? Well have you, Stupid?

    CFarleigh (094b61)

  184. @188. =yawn= The atmosphere of Jupiter is ‘fairleigh dense’ too.

    Economic Benefits of NASA

    How do you measure the NASA stimulus? How much return does NASA get for every dollar it spends? Economists may argue and quibble on the exact numbers, but it appears that the US economy gets at least $2 back for every $1 spent by NASA; in some instances, the ratio is up to $14 back for every dollar spent.

    It’s still difficult to place a precise number on the exact monetary benefits of NASA, but consider that NASA spending benefits not just the folks working at Kennedy Space Center or in Houston: It benefits the companies supplying rocket engines and computers, all the way down to suppliers that provide individual bolts.

    https://www.pcworld.com/article/253684/thank_you_space_how_nasa_tech_makes_life_better_on_earth.html

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  185. Mr. DCSA number one Mr. Farleigh is not stupid number two hello? feed the whirl let them know it’s christmastime again!

    this is the time where we do peace on erf I can tell for sure cause i just got back from the grocery store and i saw where i could buy a package of jello brand no bake candy cane “dessert” (only 40 carbs per serving which is enough to choke a goddamn reindeer!)

    so I want you to remember about Jesus and knock it off with calling people stupid thank you

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  186. Harkin

    Shall we dig up Iraq war criminality? Bush won and the cost us nearly 4500 American dead. Memory fail?

    Admiral Ben burn (b3d5ab)

  187. CFarleigh, NASA did a much better job at innovation than the private sector. NASA put them to shame. You should at least concede that.
    You also talk as if there isn’t waste in the private sector – that’s a good one. Very funny.

    Tillman (a95660)

  188. p.s. there is no such thing as NASA

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  189. I want to have access to Dark Has a. That’s where the real money goes.

    Admiral Ben burn (b3d5ab)

  190. Sheesh. Dark NASA.

    Admiral Ben burn (b3d5ab)

  191. oops!

    Mr. *DCSCA* i mean (i forgot a letter)

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  192. This right here is the reason we have huge deficits. Because of the 0.1% factor I almost left NASA out but changed my mind for this very reason. It’s all 0.1%.

    0.1% for a program that gives us justifiable pride in what our country can do, inspires kids to learn and dream, and spurs technological innovation that creates whole new industries.

    Is NASA perfect? Of course not. Suppose a scandalously high 10% of its budget were “wasted” – now we’re talking about 0.01% of GDP. The truth is probably closer to a tenth of that.

    Of course waste should be eliminated wherever possible. But calling for the elimination of a fabulously successful program because of a small incidence of waste is just dumb.

    Dave (445e97)

  193. @190. All evidence to the contrary, Mr. Feet. Overlooks consolidation but ‘maid to order’ vacuuming a clean-room.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  194. CFarleigh, NASA did a much better job at innovation than the private sector. NASA put them to shame. You should at least concede that.
    You also talk as if there isn’t waste in the private sector – that’s a good one. Very funny.

    Teach you this in school did they? Engineer your are not. Nor an economist, or at least one who knows economics such that it can be known. I’ve worked private sector, I’ve worked NASA and other government contracts. I know of what I speak. But since you want to jump in I’ll ask you what I asked Stupid…Ever processed a space vehicle? Well have you, Very Funny?

    CFarleigh (094b61)

  195. @177 DCSCA

    In Space no one can hear your rape whistle.

    Pinandpuller (75a92d)

  196. 146. 149. Admiral Ben burn (b3d5ab) — 12/4/2017 @ 1:45 pm

    Does every recruit need safety eyewear whose +++retail suggested price is a bargain when absurd MILSPEC morons triple IT? …Btw that eyewear cost us 140 bucks times 3 or 4 hundred thousand give or take a small city

    It works the same way with aspirin bought by patient in a hospital – or a scale to weigh a person on.

    I think the reason the military pays so much is because of all the procedures involved to avoid corruption and kickbacks, and to make sure they get good quality..

    Sammy Finkelman (e70ce9)

  197. calling for the elimination of a fabulously successful program because of a small incidence of waste is just dumb

    You’re discounting the 1% additional needed for the wealthiest 2 %.

    Admiral Ben burn (b3d5ab)

  198. No Sammy.

    It’s MILSPEC which is necessary for say engineering on ordnance. The idiots take that to mean MILSPEC FOR ALL LIKE MEDICARE.

    Admiral Ben burn (b3d5ab)

  199. @159 Dave

    Insha’congress. .

    Pinandpuller (75a92d)

  200. The Pentagon has reckless disregard for OTHER PEOPLE’S MONEY.

    Admiral Ben burn (b3d5ab)

  201. No Bureacracy demolition hammer for a wastrel like PENTAGON?

    Admiral Ben burn (b3d5ab)

  202. Trump gets something done.

    Dave: Strongman!

    Trump doesn’t get something done

    Dave, weak, man!

    Pinandpuller (75a92d)

  203. No, but I don’t care if you’ve processed a space vehicle CFarleigh. I’ve worked for both government and the private business myself. There is waste in both.
    Answer me this, if NASA is such a waste and privately owned business is so superior, why didn’t businesses invent much?

    Tillman (a95660)

  204. @197. It’s a waste of electrons arguing w/anti-NASA freaks in modern America, circa 2017. The ROI across the board beyond the aeronautics and space disciplines discredited them decades ago. Not that it’s perfect; as an agency it suffers from the ey-down-to-earth inefficiencies prone to all established bureaucracies; most publicly known in HSFO as Challenger and Columbia demonstrated. But ours is a far better world today with NASA than it would have been without it.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  205. SBBARI

    Spend Bucks Beyond All Reasonable Intelligence

    Needs some work from the guys who have seen the elephant.

    Pinandpuller (75a92d)

  206. @208 Tillman

    NASA hired all the Nazis, duh.

    Pinandpuller (75a92d)

  207. Trump gets something done.

    Dave: Strongman!

    Trump doesn’t get something done

    Dave, weak, man!

    No inconsistency.

    I criticize Trump when he does the wrong thing, and I also criticize Trump when he fails to keep his promises.

    He’s both an idiot and a liar, you see.

    Dave (445e97)

  208. Putin would smile if we dropped NASA P&P.

    Tillman (a95660)

  209. Government does stuff like take an agent who has it out for his big boss and transfer him to HR. They have people called “Gypsy Cops”. They have places called “rubber rooms”.

    Pinandpuller (75a92d)

  210. Needs some work from the guys who have seen(felt the elephant

    -fixt

    Admiral Ben burn (b3d5ab)

  211. why didn’t businesses invent much?

    Again, somebody help me out here. Is this Very Funny or Stupid?

    And again again, opportunity costs cost.

    CFarleigh (094b61)

  212. @208. =yawn= Tillman, we now may be ‘fairleigh sure’ who left that wrench head in the wiring of Apollo 1 back in the day; a genuine Roy Fleming.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3yRJG1diLxI

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  213. Really astounding. White collar criminals have the arrogance of giant balls backed up by monkeydicks and peanut hangers.

    https://www.thedailybeast.com/mueller-manafort-wrote-op-ed-with-russian-operative-last-month-4

    Admiral Ben burn (b3d5ab)

  214. i think going forward as the consensus grows that the FBI is corrupt political sleazy and ghetto, people will just lie to their trashy nasty FBI faces more and more

    everyone knows they’re just a ghetto gestapo now

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  215. @216. =yawn= It’s ‘fairleigh certain’ you’ve never seen a 1949 flick titled ‘Destination Moon’ which invented a plausible rationale for a business venture into space. Spoiler alert, alas, no mass quantities of uranium found on Luna— yet.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  216. No true conservative would ignore bureaucratic waste of any kind. The Mils would be no exception.

    It’s exceptionally crass and Trump-like to accept this characterization. It’s as though he and you have revolutionized politics. You don’t hide your warts. You decorate them with narcissistic pride.

    Admiral Ben burn (b3d5ab)

  217. Dave

    You really have the red I win black he loses thing down. You get to be right no matter how the Muslim ban goes down.

    I guess the green slot on the roulette wheel would be a Korematsu style decision. Good odds for you.

    Pinandpuller (75a92d)

  218. george w. booosh is a idiot, liar and the reason many soldiers did not come home and many more have issues beyond rational thought.
    and his old man is a pervert.

    mg (60b0f7)

  219. @218. Funny, too. History does rhyme.

    “The truth is, these are not very bright guys, and things got out of hand.”- ‘Deep Throat’ [Hal Holbrook] ‘All The President’s Men’ 1976

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  220. See this is why we have big deficits yet can’t have nice things. Economic ignorance. Arguments that consist of no math but lots of name calling. An inability to understand what Bastiat spoke of over 150 years ago.

    “Life, liberty, and property do not exist because men have made laws. On the contrary, it was the fact that life, liberty, and property existed beforehand that caused men to make laws in the first place.”
    ― Frédéric Bastiat, The Law

    And a bonus:
    “There is only one difference between a bad economist and a good one: the bad economist confines himself to the visible effect; the good economist takes into account both the effect that can be seen and those effects that must be foreseen.”
    ― Frédéric Bastiat

    CFarleigh (094b61)

  221. Yes like arming the sinaloa and zeta cartels, oops sorry about that, how about the Syrian rebels who defected to Al queda.

    narciso (d1f714)

  222. “sinaloa” sounds like an ancient grain what’s loaded with exotic micronutrients and beneficial fiber and yet is nevertheless too carby for to participate in no carb christmas

    pro-tip: you can leave it out for Santa and say it’s reindeer food!

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  223. CFarleigh calls truce on rhetoric…offers no new facts..just pleas for clemency.

    Admiral Ben burn (b3d5ab)

  224. How about the Nun murderers?

    Admiral Ben burn (b3d5ab)

  225. hugo black wrote the majority opinion for korematsu, a former member of the kkk.

    mg (60b0f7)

  226. @213 Tillman

    We have a fully funded NASA and are totally dependent on Russia for our rides to space. Please continue to explain the virtues and foresight of government.

    I don’t live my life based on what makes other people smile or I would tell better jokes.

    Pinandpuller (75a92d)

  227. Its a picturesque pat of the birder whose marketing and distribution dept was headed by previously one sicilia falcon, then caro quintero (played by benucio Del torso) and then Guzman loera made a franchise play.

    narciso (d1f714)

  228. Decoder ring on aisle 232 ASAP!

    meh. Cancel that..

    Admiral Ben burn (b3d5ab)

  229. You don’t know dale Scott or Jonathan Marshall, what of leftist expert are you:
    http://articles.latimes.com/1988-09-28/news/mn-2556_1_mexico-city-police/2

    narciso (d1f714)

  230. @213. Putin would smile if we dropped NASA P&P.

    No effing kidding; monuments to their space program across Russia– from Sputnik to Gagarin; it’s a part of their culture and charging their rivals $70 million a ride for each astronaut on Soyuz to the ISS has been lucrative revenge. China would smile at NASA’s demise as well. In America, spaceflight, manned or unmanned, has never been seen as essential to the national character; hence the repeated ‘gaps’ in civil HSF ops go and planetary programs as well w/endless budget battles. Most people don’t realize much the Apollo era costs went to infrastructure construction– KSC, MSFC, Houston, etc., besides hardware development. Post-Apollo, those assets had to be reworked for shuttle which operated for three decades and today, reworked for leasing to commercial firms for LEO ops and development of NASA’s new Orion spacecraft and use w/t new SLS HLV under development.

    But consolidation of the multiple space agencies operated by the spooks and the military would be a cost saver– that’s where to look for waste; but it’s also where the big budget R&D is funded as well.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  231. Patterico:

    And what’s the main thing that will jump-start the crash? Interest rates rising above their unnaturally depressed level.

    Therefire, that must be prevented.

    Trump thinks maybe he’s being moderate to liberal on that, but still the rates are rising slowly. So far the harm is not too great.

    The danger is if happens that inflation starts rising and then the fed goes all-out to “fight” it. So far, also, inflation stubbornly refuses to go up. But, in way, we are always on a precipice.

    Cutting the deficit won’t get you off of it. There is nothing anybody can do about the budget that will affect this one way or the other.

    Sammy Finkelman (e70ce9)

  232. 227, in other words, it makes ya s _ _ _ real good!

    urbanleftbehind (c54a05)

  233. Follow to above post on Manafort new revelations..

    http://www.businessinsider.com/mueller-manafort-bail-trump-russia-2017-12?op=1

    Admiral Ben burn (b3d5ab)

  234. And inspired a ton spitload of Los Tigers Del Norte songs. Like James Brown, they all start off off the same beat.

    urbanleftbehind (c54a05)

  235. The “disaster” would probably inflate away much of the national the debt.

    That’s basically the choice: keep interest rates permanently low, or create stagflation – a recession and lot of inflation, and inflate away the national debt.

    Sammy Finkelman (e70ce9)

  236. Compare this NASA nonsense to the bean counter rationale:

    eliminate promotions and discounts to maximise profits

    Admiral Ben burn (b3d5ab)

  237. @211. And they lived and worked chiefly in =drummroll= Huntsville, Alabama, PP. Pedophile 1 may liftoff in 10 days or less.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  238. @241. Back in the Apollo days technicians and engineers were rewarded w/bonuses for every ounce/pound they could save in weight.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  239. But consolidation of the multiple space agencies operated by the spooks and the military would be a cost saver– that’s where to look for waste; but it’s also where the big budget R&D is funded as well.
    DCSCA (797bc0) — 12/4/2017 @ 4:09 pm

    For my part I’m not saying kill NASA. But how about we start feeding it some senior chow so it doesn’t get too fat? Every government department can stand some cuts.

    One of my favorite Adam Corolla lines is about people defacing porta-johns with “Mexican Space Shuttle”.

    Pinandpuller (928a45)

  240. Answer me this, if NASA is such a waste and privately owned business is so superior, why didn’t businesses invent much?

    It is a common Leftist trick to just throw out a lie like it was a fact, and Tillman is a Leftist liar. Inventions have been by private individuals — from the spear to the iPhone. Governments’ involvement has been sometimes to fund them and other times to forbid the research except under government auspices. And in the specific case of the space program, to have all the Nazi rocket scientists.

    nk (dbc370)

  241. Bureaucracy stifles innovation no matter how many specifications are written requiring it.

    crazy (d99a88)

  242. How about the Nun murderers?
    Admiral Ben burn (b3d5ab) — 12/4/2017 @ 3:53 pm

    Hey, we got Father Dowling up in he-ya!

    Pinandpuller (928a45)

  243. Wow… 79 posts by two individuals, Rear Admiral and ASPCA.

    Colonel Haiku (9298f8)

  244. *jingle jingle* Arms…for the poor

    *jingle jingle* Arms…for the poor

    Pinandpuller (928a45)


  245. …why didn’t businesses invent much?

    You are the pinnacle of leftist stupidity and government education.

    Rev.Hoagie (6bbda7)

  246. No we got the better crew, the soviet’s got a few, but korolev was their great helmsman, Von brown was a visionary no doubt, his was the idea between the wheel station, which we have yet achieve anything as shisticated

    narciso (d1f714)

  247. Heh.

    NK wants a conservative paradise as antithesis to …

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Leap_Forward

    Let’s all build our own community space program.

    Admiral Ben burn (b3d5ab)

  248. Wow… 79 posts by two individuals, Rear Admiral and ASPCA.
    Colonel Haiku (9298f8) — 12/4/2017 @ 4:29 pm

    There’s probably a government program to count those for you. Have you written Pueblo, CO lately? Their stationary doesn’t smell like lavender.

    Pinandpuller (928a45)

  249. I don’t care what you say, doing away with the “individual mandate” was the best push-back against communism for as long as I can remember. Now hopefully I can get my thousands of dollars back that the government stole from me these last 6 years or so, even as I paid thousands of dollars in cash for the healthcare services that I chose to purchase.

    jcurtis (379dfb)

  250. Nunes/Rohrabacher…

    Watch what happens kernel. Get your kneepads.

    Admiral Ben burn (b3d5ab)

  251. We have a fully funded NASA and are totally dependent on Russia for our rides to space. Please continue to explain the virtues and foresight of government.

    Except we don’t. And that’s where the politics come into play in transition. Commercial proponents– the privateers- seek to under fund NASA ops to subsidize commercial space development yet leave NASA responsible for carrying the risk should they have a ‘bad day.’ NASA would prefer full funding for BEO ops and leave LEO ops to commercial contracting but at their own risk which a quarterly driven economy cannot absorb given the low to no ROI on commercial spaceflight ops. Capital will invest in oil exploration before LEO space ops for a quicker and more lucrative ROI. OTOH, if lunar regolith was found to cure cancer, commercial space would be awash is cash.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  252. And the same FBI assclown was the guy questioning Flynn. Wow.

    Colonel Haiku (9298f8)

  253. Kill ’em All

    Let Natural Selection

    Sort ’em Out

    Your move Sam Harris

    Pinandpuller (928a45)

  254. @254. =Haiku= Gesundheit!

    But then, you seldom have anything to say, Colonelle.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  255. Caught in a trap

    Can’t walk out

    You didn’t bring a lawyer, Mikey

    Pinandpuller (928a45)

  256. The other reason I like getting rid of the mandate (besides the libertarian one), is the “problem” Patterico identifies. It does stick it to filthy insurance companies who crawled into bed with Obama and rubbed their filthy hands with filthy glee and giggled hysterically at the prospect of a captive, young, healthy insured pool driven into their filthy grasp by the filthy mandate. Let them all go bankrupt or go out of business and let’s do a new deal with doctors and their patients starting fresh, is what I say.

    nk (dbc370)

  257. 263

    You’re too fearful of a discussion. Some projects are too large for state and local.

    Admiral Ben burn (b3d5ab)

  258. yes yes Mr. nk

    sleazy actions have unpleasant consequences

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  259. john kasich is ugly

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  260. The filthy insurance companies knew filthy Obamacare was going to be a fustercluck. (With the Vaseline jar full of sand.) It is the kind of thing they know because it is their job to know. But they went along because they saw how they would make out like bandits. Which they are. Bandits.

    nk (dbc370)

  261. Strzok is where he belongs: the HR dept, with the rest of the SJWs…

    Colonel Haiku (9298f8)

  262. @244. We have a fully funded NASA and are totally dependent on Russia for our rides to space. Please continue to explain the virtues and foresight of government.

    The push to ‘privatize’ NASA was tried in the Reagan era w/t shuttle. Cost-cutting cut corners, including quality assurance, reduced margins, pressured turnaround times which led to cannibalizing parts from vehicles under construction and unrealistic launch schedules to service ‘customers’ (including military) which in part eventually led to losing Challenger.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  263. @266. Lest ye forget, Mr. Feet, watching him eat is uglier.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  264. Strzok is where he belongs: the HR dept, with the rest of the SJWs…

    but where’s his hot-to-trot fbi honey bunny Lisa Page?

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  265. Who was it that said donations by DOJ/FBI employees to political orgs or politicians is within their rights and is absolutely above board and fully ethical?

    Colonel Haiku (9298f8)

  266. he’s just gross all the way around Mr. DCSCA

    i hope he gets publicly humiliated and starts to cry even though he’s trying really hard not to and them he just loses it and starts bawling like the little girl he is and blows a big honking snot bubble on national tv

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  267. oopers and *then* he just loses it i mean

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  268. Ted Cruz voted for this tax bill you know

    and it’s a fairly decent-sized step forward for him in this chapter of life where he’s understandably focused on his political rehabilitation

    i’m not saying i respect him now just cause of this but for sure i definitely acknowledge his progress

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  269. When a government agency believes it’s above the law and conducts itself accordingly, something is very wrong.

    Colonel Haiku (9298f8)

  270. 214. Pinandpuller (75a92d) — 12/4/2017 @ 3:33 pm

    Government does stuff like take an agent who has it out for his big boss and transfer him to HR.

    If they didn’t have a special counsel, you could blame Trump for having him transferred. But now that we have a special counsel, it is clear that Mueller did it, which might mean he actually wants to be fair, or appear to be so. But Trump is not thanking him. Of course that would be a bad idea, but still..

    The rubber rooms are for teachers.

    Sammy Finkelman (e70ce9)

  271. The stock market is going up because some people think the cut in the corporate tax rate means that more money will be left for dividends and corporate buybacks and mergers, not because they think the economy is going to grow..

    Sammy Finkelman (e70ce9)

  272. Federal law enforcement agencies ignoring federal law. This needs to be corrected.

    Colonel Haiku (9298f8)

  273. 66. According to the CBS Evening News, the student loan interest deduction (Line 33 on Form 1040) is eliminated in both bills.

    It will still be there for 2017 tax returns of course.

    Sammy Finkelman (e70ce9)

  274. Shes apparently on feinsteins senate staff now, I guess to try outflank deleon

    narciso (d1f714)

  275. Strzok would have likely been the investigator in Petraeous’ mishandling of code-word notes that he kept at home and shared with his amorous biographer. Despite admitting lying to the FBI Petraeous was only charged with a single count of mishandling classified unlike Flynn.

    crazy (d99a88)

  276. 262. Pinandpuller (928a45) — 12/4/2017 @ 4:46 pm

    ou didn’t bring a lawyer, Mikey

    If he’d consulted a lawyer, (before) he would have told him that he almost certainly had nothing to worry about as far as violating the Logan Act. But he didn’t, so he thought he did, so he lied.

    Sammy Finkelman (e70ce9)

  277. So one guy lies about a crime and isn’t charged when he admits it, the other lies about something that’s not a crime and is charged when he admits it. Some justice system we have here…

    crazy (d99a88)

  278. Most likely, but that prosecution was just designed to get Brendan into his slot, it was prompted bow from a leak likely Jews office e at the pentagon.

    narciso (d1f714)

  279. Supreme Court allows full travel ban to go into effect, 7-2.

    So much for those moronic decisions by District Court and Appeals Court judges.

    shipwreckedcrew (56b591)

  280. whaaaaa?

    but dirty-assed DOJ butt-wipe Sally Yates put on her brightest pink pussyhat and assured us the travel ban was unlawful

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  281. 277 — what happened was that Strzok was on “detail” to Mueller’s investigation. When the issues arose last summer regarding his extra-marital affair and possible bias based on an OIG review of emails connected to the Hillary email case, Mueller booted him from the detail.

    So he would have returned to whatever “squad” he was assigned to at FBI HQ. It was from that position that he was transferred to HR. This is not an unusual occurrence when an Agent has an OPR investigation opened against him, as the extra-marital affair and biased emails would have likely caused to happen.

    You can’t have an extra-marital affair when you are doing any kind of counter-intelligence work, as it opens you up to blackmail. And his biased emails would be considered professional misconduct. IF he had strong political beliefs about either candidate, he should have declined the assignment to Mueller’s detail on the basis that he could not be impartial.

    shipwreckedcrew (56b591)

  282. It only took Trump 3 times to get it right.

    DRJ (15874d)

  283. Jeh johnson, who got his own promotion to dhs, out of the deal where he proceeded to force out Phil honey,

    narciso (d1f714)

  284. Lots of idiots trotted out all kinds of ridiculous arguments about why the travel ban was unlawful.

    By refusing to allow the Appeals Court Orders limiting application of the Travel Ban to remain in effect, the Court is signalling pretty strongly that the President is correct in his reading of his authority to do what he did, and that restricting entry into the US is not unlawful discrimination cognizable in a US Court of Law.

    shipwreckedcrew (56b591)

  285. Plus dropping Iraq and Sudan from the travel ban.

    DRJ (15874d)

  286. That Petraeus investigation was ginned up by false claims t that his mistress had harassed Jill Kelley. That gave the FBI a reason to subpoena emails, which led to discover emails between Petraeus and his mistress. People at the CIA had probably discovered that, because everything
    that goes out of Langley is eavesdropped on, but they are not supposed to listen to it for personal information.

    I think the people at the CIA who knew he had a mistress needed someway for a legitimate investigation to discover that, and I think they created one, with the help of a foreign intelligence agency.

    Once here was a whole investigation going it discovered what he did with sharing his notebooks. It wasn’t really so unusual. I mean, she also had a security clearance and nothing was going to be published without being cleared. How could he possibly ever write a first draft without probably including classified information?

    Sammy Finkelman (e70ce9)

  287. 289 — we don’t know that. The Travel Ban may have ultimately been upheld by the SC in its original form if that particular version had lasted long enough to have been reviewed by the SC. But by its very terms, the original EO was only intended to last 120 days while a comprehensive review of the vetting system was done.

    shipwreckedcrew (56b591)

  288. You mean like the resistance at dhs which cooked up that bogus memo, the others that hid the ingress of a figure connected to a kidnapping in Iraq, the legal malpractice in Honolulu, baltimore et al

    narciso (d1f714)

  289. You really have the red I win black he loses thing down. You get to be right no matter how the Muslim ban goes down.

    Not my fault that the politician I oppose is an unprincipled moron.

    If Trump came out and admitted that his original Muslim ban was a cynical attempt to manipulate peoples’ bigotry for votes, I would stop blaming him for failing to keep the promise.

    But he has never disavowed it, so it remains an urgently needed action he promised to do, but didn’t.

    Ditto for his promise to put Hillary Clinton in jail.
    Ditto for his promise to appoint “pro-life judges”.
    Ditto for his promise to eliminate the $20T national debt in eight years.
    Ditto for his promise to institute cruel forms of severe torture.
    Ditto for his promise to order summary execution of the wives, mothers and children of suspected terrorists.
    Ditto for his promise to institute the death penalty for cop killers by executive order.
    Ditto for his promise to end freedom of the press by allowing the courts to silence journalists critical of him.
    Ditto for his promise to summarily execute Bowe Bergdahl.
    Ditto for his promise to declare China a currency manipulator.
    Etc, etc.

    All of these things, according to Trump at one time or another, are absolutely necessary, and yet he has done none of them.

    It’s frustrating how the press gives him a pass on all these broken promises, by the way, just like they give him a pass on his promise that crime and violence would end once he was inaugurated.

    Dave (445e97)

  290. Of course what happens if a terrorist like the one released by Obama in 2012, who. Came from Sudan or another from Iraq ingresses, this is the problem with leaving loopholes.

    narciso (d1f714)

  291. “Tax and Spend Democrats”, but I suggest that this is better than “Borrow and Spend Republicans”.

    Davethulhu (fab944) — 12/4/2017 @ 11:16 am

    Spend in haste, tax at leisure.

    Pinandpuller (928a45)

  292. You can see how the system was rigged from the lowest investigator to the head of the bureau, to prevent accountability for Hillary from page to strzok to rybicki to mccabe to comedy.

    narciso (d1f714)

  293. OT, but Lindsey Graham by telegraphing punches with regard to the Far East might have done more to turn the clock back to pre-DADT than any incident of incompetance or cowardice by tranny, queen or bulldike.

    urbanleftbehind (847a06)

  294. @251. If memory serves, of the 100 Peenemunde team captured/surrendered, 99 came West through Paperclip and one chose to go East w/t Rooskies. The genius of Von Braun once they left White Sands was seeding several of those engineers and managers into key positions across the U.S. aerospace industry which made for smoother planning, integration and management when Apollo ramped up. The secreted ‘Chief Designer,’ Korolev, was comparable to Von Braun in skill and vision but hamstrung by the pressures for Soviet ‘propaganda’ flights. His lasting legacy beyond getting Gagarin up and down is the Soyuz– its base design still operational nearly 50 years after the first flight. OTOH the Russian N-1 was a nightmare design and w/o his guidance, as he died before it was tested, it literally blew up in their faces whereas Von Braun’s Saturns soared to success.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  295. blow it out your azzhole, Dave.

    mg (60b0f7)

  296. Inthe tregillis tale, the second part set in 1963, as the iron curtain came as closer as the channel thanks to the ubermench. Von braun went with the cosmonauts,

    narciso (d1f714)

  297. They’re like Vikings with wooden swords. Lots of noise but little real damage.
    Admiral Ben burn (b3d5ab) — 12/4/2017 @ 11:51 am

    Undocumented Englishmen. You’re a regular Water Dancer yourself. Your sword has lost it’s savor.

    Pinandpuller (928a45)

  298. Kevin D. Williamson:

    Deficits and public debt are a drag on the economy, hoovering up investable capital and putting upward pressure on interest rates.

    No, they’re not, because there is no free market in interest rates.

    This is wrong, and that it is wrong sis brne out by the histoical record of the last 40 or 50 years.

    The idea of “crowding out” is pure theory, and doesn’t reflect the reality in the United States.

    Sammy Finkelman (e70ce9)

  299. It really is strikinghow much of a parallel there is with Von braun:

    m.esa.int/About_Us/Welcome_to_ESA/ESA_history/50_years_of_humans_in_space/Sergei_Korolev_Father_of_the_Soviet_Union_s_success_in_space

    Their James webb was marshal ustinov, deposd in the aftermath of the matthias rust affair

    narciso (d1f714)

  300. 296. The original ban, which was not a Muslim ban, was an attempt to make it look like he was fulfilling a campaign promise.

    Sammy Finkelman (e70ce9)

  301. 296. The original ban, which was not a Muslim ban, was an attempt to make it look like he was fulfilling a campaign promise.

    Exactly my point.

    When I refer to “the original ban”, I mean the total ban he promised, not the half-assed substitute he tried to fool people with.

    Dave (445e97)

  302. Third, the bill will d drive up health insurance premiums by repealing ObamaCare’s individual mandate without repealing the other provisions of ObamaCare

    Susan Collins got a promise from Mitch McConnell that two bills that are supposed to counteract something will get a floor vote (and getting it is a real problem) but they are said to compensate for earlier things.

    The thing is, though, without the mandate, less comprehensive insurance policies can be offered. And a 10% increase in a year is par for the course.

    Sammy Finkelman (e70ce9)

  303. Sammy @293, I get the point you’re making but don’t overthink it. Petraeous was undone by his own admission that he knew his handwritten notes were classified TS under various code words and that he shouldn’t have them at home in a box and shouldn’t have shared them outside program channels with an uncleared person – that’s a crime – he knew it and denied it until he was confronted with LTC Paula ____’s conflicting account of how she came to have them. Flynn’s underlying conduct was lawful – maybe not so wise politically, but nonetheless lawful.

    So one lies about a crime he knows he’s guilty of the other lies about lawful conduct he’s afraid some will think is criminal. The first skates on the lie to the FBI, the other’s on his way to bankruptcy until he admits to and pleads to the lie. From his perch as the deputy of the counter-intel group Strzok was likely involved in the Petraeous investigation. The IG says he’s looking at other cases this may well be one of them. The disparate treatment of officials that appears to be based more on political favoritism than equal treatment under law is the point.

    crazy (d99a88)

  304. 308. Dave (445e97) — 12/4/2017 @ 5:59 pm

    When I refer to “the original ban”, I mean the total ban he promised, not the half-assed substitute he tried to fool people with.

    That one he took back within a few weeks or even days during the campaign.

    But he was trying to fool people with the idea he was getting tough. It had to look a little bit over the top to do that.

    Sammy Finkelman (e70ce9)

  305. All Ted had to do was save/limit mortal damage to the property tax deduction. He is also what one might deduce as Reluctant NeverTrump, more an accident of the mods and mids cannibalizing their potential primary votes. Had one solid “NT Moderate” arose prior to the late fall 2015, Cruz might have wisely pulled back and ended up sitting where Race Bannon Leather Jacket now sits.

    urbanleftbehind (847a06)

  306. 310. Wit a second. Petraeus pled guilty. The controversy I think was that it was a low sentence for the crime.

    Sammy Finkelman (e70ce9)

  307. @306. Narciso, it is, isn’t it– especially in retrospect. And yet at the time, K wasn’t ‘known’ generally in the West and purposely kept under wraps by the Rooskie powers that be. Can’t help but think of him every time a Soyuz is lofted and imaged w/t ISS. People don’t realize Soyuz was initially designed for lunar flights, too. It’s like that old 1969 VW print ad said of the LM- “It’s ugly. But it gets you there.”

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  308. 312. Trump was willing to say ridiculous things that others were afraid to dispute or didn’t know how to argue against, but no one would join him in. Whatever anybody else did, he went one step further. That was the reason th wall was going to be paid for by Mexico and that was the reason for hhis proposed Muslim ban after San Bernardino.

    Sammy Finkelman (e70ce9)

  309. If you can’t trust Angry Zen Master, who can you trust?

    Steve57 (0b1dac) — 12/4/2017 @ 12:32 pm

    I heard a thought experiment that asked: would you sell your dog for a million dollars? Thing is, with a million dollars you can probably afford to steal your dog back.

    Pinandpuller (928a45)

  310. That one he took back within a few weeks or even days during the campaign.

    Find me a quote of Trump repudiating the original ban:

    “Donald J. Trump is calling for a total and complete shutdown of Muslims entering the United States.”

    Trump never admits he’s wrong about anything, and this was no exception.

    Dave (445e97)

  311. Because everything had to go the credit of the politburo, plus he wee a detainee, although I’m nit short he wee a zed, he designed semyorka, the counterpart to the hwaaung missile today.

    narciso (d1f714)

  312. The “total and complete shutdown of Muslims” thing remained on his campaign website through election and inauguration day, and was only finally removed after litigants fighting his executive orders started pointing to it as evidence of intent to discriminate…

    Dave (445e97)

  313. HE BILL HIKES TAXES ON THE PROFESSIONAL MIDDLE CLASS TO GIVE TAX BREAKS TO SUPER-WEALTHY DONORS.

    No,the tex breaks to wealthy donors are being financed by the increase in the deficit. They are supposed to stimulate the economy, because they’ll have all that much more money to invest and taking risks will be a better bet.

    The hike on the professional middle class, (mostly people who itemize deductions and a bunch of other oprovisions that affect some people a lot but others not at all) are being used to finance tacx custs.’

    Everybody on payroll will see a rise in their take home pay come January, 018, or as soon as they can change the withholding tables (it might take till April, and will be even bigger than if they would have started in January.)

    Some will be surprised at what their return return says in April, 2019, but, well, that’s after the next election.

    Maybe not so surprised because the lower withholding only stated in April.

    They might get really surprised in March and April of 2020 – Presidential primary season.

    Sammy Finkelman (e70ce9)

  314. @211. And they lived and worked chiefly in =drummroll= Huntsville, Alabama, PP. Pedophile 1 may liftoff in 10 days or less.
    DCSCA (797bc0) — 12/4/2017 @ 4:18 pm

    In one of Leon Jaworski’s books he described German POW’s impression of middle America: Nice cars in front of crummy houses.

    Pinandpuller (928a45)

  315. The reverse of that POW’s impression might take place in a neighborhood full of urban district High School teachers and administrators – opulent homes but the crap car is used to commute to discourage vandalism.

    urbanleftbehind (847a06)

  316. Pedophile I may liftoff in 10 days or less.
    DCSCA (797bc0) — 12/4/2017 @ 4:18 pm

    A shocking confession, ASPCA. May you crash upon re-entry!

    Colonel Haiku (9298f8)

  317. The primary teachers had much less of that fear so they would drive Caddies and sports cars to school and why I had absolutely no sympathy during their strikes.

    urbanleftbehind (847a06)

  318. private individuals
    nk (dbc370) — 12/4/2017 @ 4:24 pm

    Private Individual gets a blanket party. Every. Damn. Night.

    Pinandpuller (928a45)

  319. In an ideal world with an literate population and a political system not focused to narrow short tern ends we would have a solution, frankly though we wouldn’t be in this mess in the first place.

    narciso (d1f714)

  320. i don’t understand how this tax bill is a “betrayal of conservative values”

    i like it a lot cause of the many ways in which it breaks with the failed obama policies

    there’s much more to do that’s for sure!

    but the journey of a thousand miles is no good unless you’re in someone else’s moccasins (someone you really love like how hot-to-trot FBI trollop Lisa Page lurvs her some Trump-hating texts before falling into bed with people way higher than her on that slicked-up FBI totem pole she likes to ride like jessie the yodeling lesbian cowgirl from toy story except for not as lesbian).

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  321. 319. Dave (445e97) — 12/4/2017 @ 6:18 pm

    The “total and complete shutdown of Muslims” thing remained on his campaign website through election and inauguration day, and was only finally removed after litigants fighting his executive orders started pointing to it as evidence of intent to discriminate…

    More like on the web site archives. In the debates, it was understood not to be current. He also called for something temporary.

    On January 14, 2016, Donald trump said he was not rethinking his position. (but he had already backtracked as far as green card holders, who seemed to be included at first)

    By the time of the second presidential debate between Donald trump and Hillary Clinton, on Sunday, October 9 2016 it seemed to be gone:

    http://www.nytimes.com/2016/10/10/us/politics/transcript-second-debate.h
    tml?_r=0

    RADDATZ: … Mr. Trump, in December, you said this. “Donald J. Trump is calling for a total and complete shutdown of Muslims entering the United States until our country’s representatives can figure out what the hell is going on. We have no choice. We have no choice.”

    Your running mate said this week that the Muslim ban is no longer your position. Is that correct? And if it is, was it a mistake to have a religious test?

    TRUMP: ….The Muslim ban is something that in some form has morphed into a extreme vetting from certain areas of the world. Hillary Clinton wants to allow hundreds of thousands – excuse me. Excuse me..

    RADDATZ: And why did it morph into that? No, did you – no, answer the question. Do you still believe…

    TRUMP: Why don’t you interrupt her? You interrupt me all the time.

    RADDATZ: I do.

    TRUMP: Why don’t you interrupt her?

    RADDATZ: Would you please explain whether or not the Muslim ban still stands?

    TRUMP: It’s called extreme vetting. We are going to areas like Syria where they’re coming in by the tens of thousands because of Barack Obama. And Hillary Clinton wants to allow a 550 percent increase over Obama. People are coming into our country like we have no idea who they are, where they are from, what their feelings about our country is, and she wants 550 percent more. This is going to be the great Trojan horse of all time….

    Sammy Finkelman (e70ce9)

  322. The push to ‘privatize’ NASA was tried in the Reagan era w/t shuttle. Cost-cutting cut corners, including quality assurance, reduced margins, pressured turnaround times which led to cannibalizing parts from vehicles under construction and unrealistic launch schedules to service ‘customers’ (including military) which in part eventually led to losing Challenger.
    DCSCA (797bc0) — 12/4/2017 @ 5:00 pm

    Freeze-Dried chicken in every BOB.

    Pinandpuller (928a45)

  323. @323. =yawn= Haiku! Gesundmeit!

    And you kid me not, eh Colonelle.

    If he loses and our Captain is now on record endorsing him, that greenlights him dating his daughter once Jared goes to prison.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  324. Errata corrected:

    Everybody on a payroll will see a rise in their take home pay come January, 2018, or as soon as they can change the withholding tables (it might take till April, and will be even bigger than if they would have started in January.)

    Some will be surprised at what their return says in April, 2019, but, well, that’s after the next election.

    Maybe not so surprised because the lower withholding rates only started in April.

    Sammy Finkelman (e70ce9)

  325. @329. A vast improvement over ‘spam-in-a-can’ PP.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  326. Yes, its not a swamp its mine field ringed with barbed wire, the metaphor occurred to me after the agitate over comeys firing. Because that was just one pin. Mccabe (who was involved in agent gritz suit, as well as a rooting interest with red queen) rybicki who forwarded the corrections, prietap who ran the surveillance, his opposite number laufman at doj, and those are just the ones we are currently aware of

    narciso (d1f714)

  327. If they didn’t have a special counsel, you could blame Trump for having him transferred. But now that we have a special counsel, it is clear that Mueller did it, which might mean he actually wants to be fair, or appear to be so. But Trump is not thanking him. Of course that would be a bad idea, but still.. How did Mueller know about the texts?

    The rubber rooms are for teachers.
    Sammy Finkelman (e70ce9) — 12/4/2017 @ 5:09 pm
    Government employees all.

    Pinandpuller (928a45)

  328. I heard a thought experiment that asked: would you sell your dog for a million dollars? Thing is, with a million dollars you can probably afford to steal your dog back.

    Once, long ago, after an experiment I worked on had made an important discovery, we had a brief window of time in which the funding agency wanted to throw money at us. At one of our meetings, the leader of the experiment (a future Nobel prize winner) asked people to suggest upgrades for the experiment and very seriously intoned: “Assuming you had unlimited resources, what would you do?”

    One of my colleagues immediately quipped, “If I had unlimited resources, I’d hire someone to figure out how to spend them.”

    Dave (445e97)

  329. The truth is that if more Muslim women were willing to serve alcoholic drinks half-naked in Sheldon Adelson’s casinos, there would be no Muslim ban. They’re really the ones to blame, the over-religious prudes.

    nk (dbc370)

  330. The problem is the shuttle became a crutch, in twenty some years there want a successor vehicle, the intrrnationsl soacecstation became an oversight. Heinleins view typified by do harriman, may have been idealistic but viable.

    narciso (d1f714)

  331. @323. Pshaw on you, Colonelle– you faked me out by falsifying the post; but the gig’s already filled- our Captain has a lawyer to do that for him.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  332. Buy Liberty Mutual

    Teach kids how to change tire

    Wut do?

    Pinandpuller (928a45)

  333. By the time of the second presidential debate between Donald trump and Hillary Clinton, on Sunday, October 9 2016 it seemed to be gone: …

    “Seemed”.

    He had an opportunity to explicitly repudiate the original ban, and he bent over backward to avoid doing so.

    Dave (445e97)

  334. The withholding tables are normally based on people taking the standard deduction. They can result in huge tax refunds for people itemizing deductions. There may be a margin of error to take account of possible for interest and other jobs or income also.

    Here’s how people can calculate their withholdiHng

    https://www.irs.gov/publications/p505

    Not that many read this kind of thing.

    POh, look? The latest from the IRS: A new way to pay.

    https://www.irs.gov/publications/p505#en_US_2017_publink1000194713

    Pay by Cash

    Cash is a new in-person payment option for individuals provided through retail partners with a maximum of $1,000 per day per transaction. To make a cash payment you must first be registered online at http://www.officialpayments.com/fed, our Official Payment provider.

    Sammy Finkelman (e70ce9)

  335. If Trump came out and admitted that his original Muslim ban was a cynical attempt to manipulate peoples’ bigotry for votes, I would stop blaming him for failing to keep the promise.

    But he has never disavowed it, so it remains an urgently needed action he promised to do, but didn’t.

    Dave (445e97) — 12/4/2017 @ 5:33 pm

    You can call a leg a Muslim ban but it’s still a leg.

    Pinandpuller (928a45)

  336. @337. Remember the orbiter was initially supposed to be smaller, and just a part of larger system for a more robust station w/return to Luna and points beyond– Mars as the longer term plan. When the Big Dick cancelled everything but shuttle, priorities shifted and shuttle became a mission to itself. The final design was dictated by military payload needs to secure $ as budgets tightened and development costs soared– particularly engineering the reusable engines and tile issues. What eventually flew was never what they truly wanted– it was what they could afford to get.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  337. Oh for the love of God…I so wanted to drop this but then saw P&P’s quoting of this from Stupid:

    The push to ‘privatize’ NASA was tried in the Reagan era w/t shuttle. Cost-cutting cut corners, including quality assurance, reduced margins, pressured turnaround times which led to cannibalizing parts from vehicles under construction and unrealistic launch schedules to service ‘customers’ (including military) which in part eventually led to losing Challenger.

    How old are you? Were you even alive then? Challenger was lost because a NASA official, a f’n government idiot, overrode engineering.

    From Utah, four Morton Thiokol vice presidents and 10 engineers participate in the second teleconference. Lund presents the engineering data and recommends no launching below 53 degrees. On the line from Marshall Center with Lovingood and others is Hardy, who tells Morton Thiokol he is “appalled” by the recommendation to delay.
    At the Kennedy Center, Mulloy challenges the credibility of the data and the conclusions of Morton Thiokol’s engineers, who recall Mulloy’s saying, “My God, when do you want me to launch–April?”

    http://beta.latimes.com/science/la-sci-challenger-24-hours-pre-launch-debate-20160128-htmlstory.html

    Please Stupid, shut the eff up. You have no effing idea what the eff you are talking about. I was there that day. It was cold as hell overnight. I picked up my supervisor at 3:30 AM. That was no kind of weather for O-rings based on what we later learned and what ENGINEERS knew. You f’n bastards and your politics and your games, etc. You get people killed, then blame others.

    CFarleigh (094b61)

  338. 340. It was gone. It had somehow morphed – Trump couldn’t say how – into extreme vetting for people from certain areas of the world.

    Yes, he wouldn’t agree that “morph” meant it had changed.

    Sammy Finkelman (e70ce9)

  339. You can call a leg a Muslim ban but it’s still a leg.

    And “a total and complete shutdown of Muslims entering the United States” is still a ban.

    Dave (445e97)

  340. Good God, I see he goes on. As if he’s all space-knowledge boy and stuff. More to the topic of this post, kind of, this is a prime example of this country’s problems. People who talk. They talk and talk as if they know oh so much. Never done real work in the real world, though. Not humbled by real experiences. Dunning-Kruger effect is strong in this one. Stupid indeed.

    CFarleigh (094b61)

  341. Pinandpuller (928a45) — 12/4/2017 @ 7:03 pm You can call a leg a Muslim ban but it’s still a leg.

    It wasn’t the same thing, and he didn’t call it that. But he wouldn’t say it was not the same thing.

    He just said it had morphed.

    Sammy Finkelman (e70ce9)

  342. Challenger was lost because a NASA official, a f’n government idiot, overrode engineering.

    True, but aggressive launch scheduling was part of the environment in which that mistake was made, as your own quote bears out:

    “My God, when do you want me to launch–April?”

    Dave (445e97)

  343. New York State Governor Andrew Cuomo lied the other day. He said he had talked to all the Republican members of Congress from New York State and they told him they were being forced under pressure to vote for the bill.

    There were four House members who votes for it. Three of them said they had never talked to the Governor and the fourth said he did but the conversation didn’t go any way like Andrew Cuomo said it did. He said he already knew that the Governor lied (about conversations) and that;’s why he had one witness to the conversation.

    I think he said Governor Andrew Cuomo used the argument that eliminating the deduction for state and local income taxes would hurt the state budget.

    Sammy Finkelman (e70ce9)

  344. Strzok me, Strzok me

    You could be a Mueller boy, you lie pretty well

    Strzok me, Strzok me (Strzok)

    Strzok me, Strzok me

    We got your number now

    Strzok me, Strzok me

    They said you’re a hater but man, you’re just in HR now

    Pinandpuller (928a45)

  345. There tragically has been a pattern of catastrophic failure every 16 yrs or so, Apollo 1, challenger Columbia, until the last we chose not to shutter the program.

    The European space agency has met somewhat of an impasse in a slightly longer arc. Since then NASA has become more introspective and not reaching for the stars

    narciso (4346c7)

  346. in hr like a little b!tch

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  347. True, but aggressive launch scheduling was part of the environment in which that mistake was made, as your own quote bears out:

    No, dumb azz. That NASA idiot was the one putting the pressure on. The scheduling was aggressive because the political idiots who manipulated the designs and plans and such sought out “experts” who would tell them what they wanted to hear. They ignored and dismissed the ENGINEERS who understood these things. Gawd damm it, I was f’n there. You people have no f’n idea what the eff you are talking about. I’ve studied complex systems. I’ve worked them. I’ve seen the many failures over the few successes. There was no way they were going to launch two Shuttles a month as originally planned (because fixed costs needed to be spread out over as many launches as possible), as sold to the public cost-wise. Any idiot could see that. Especially after Challenger. But no one wanted to see it. Because politics and government.

    CFarleigh (094b61)

  348. @344. =yawn= ‘fairleigh ignorant’ is no way to go though life, son- do read the ’86 report some time and accept the hows and whys you were cleaned out w/t deadwood.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  349. do read the ’86 report some time and accept the hows and whys you were cleaned out w/t deadwood.

    F U Stupid. You sniveling little coward. I read the reports when they came out. Hell, I ran the data on what some of those reports were based. I left that job because it made me sick to my stomach going in every day, seeing the waste, the stupidity, the indifference to the costs to taxpayers when we were running huge deficits. You little coward punk, you would not have the guts to say such to my face. You know nothing you ignorant little s*t.

    CFarleigh (094b61)

  350. You can call a leg a Muslim ban but it’s still a leg.

    And “a total and complete shutdown of Muslims entering the United States” is still a ban.
    Dave (445e97) — 12/4/2017 @ 7:08 pm

    And a complete shutdown of people from six to eight countries isn’t.

    Pinandpuller (928a45)

  351. the important thing is nobody we knew was on any of the doomed shuttles

    so just be thankful

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  352. you can call her leggy

    and you can call her meggy

    and you can call her leggy meggy

    but she still ain’t no goddamn princess

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  353. the important thing is nobody we knew was on any of the doomed shuttles

    so just be thankful

    Yeah, Bill Nelson was on the flight before. It tests my faith in God that he missed by one mission.

    CFarleigh (094b61)

  354. where’s elissa she’s missing like the whole presidency so far

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  355. you know Mr. Nelson?

    i don’t even know who that is

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  356. Senator Bill Nelson. Our POS, talks too slow, won’t STFU senator from Florida.

    CFarleigh (094b61)

  357. He was a “humble” congressman at the time, IIRC.

    CFarleigh (094b61)

  358. oh yes yes he’s from Florida

    he has nice teeth but i bet he’s all super-opposed to drilling the oils off the western coast of Florida

    that’s so lame

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  359. Not to be confused with one of the real astronauts that I met, one George “Pinky” Nelson. A good guy.

    CFarleigh (094b61)

  360. @354. =yawn= Still venting hot gas out the aft end of your service module. The scheduling was “aggressive” because the agency was pushed to meet customer demand and avoi penalties for slipping launch dates; commercial and military customers contracted for at or below coast launch services to get business; an agency competing w/international launch services. Do read the ’86 report some time. And do follow up w/t CAIB report as well.

    “You were there…” ..and it’s ‘farleigh clear’ they found some deadwood and cleared you out.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  361. It doesnt fit on the cue card, pin, we did learn something from this exercise, when push comes to shove, there is a constituency to foil any effective betting regime.

    National healthcare was defeated in 1994, but like dragon’s teeth it was rrevibed in w009, this was because a large enough crisis was engineered, the populace were trained tp.loath insurance companies and those same companies were bought off, so no Harry and louise.

    narciso (4346c7)

  362. Does BB go to bed early or do they kick his homeless a$$ out of the library at 7 o’clock?

    Emperor Norton

    Pinandpuller (928a45)

  363. i bet he’s all super-opposed to drilling the oils off the western coast of Florida

    Oh, yes. Takes him forever to tell you why, though. Ohh…here, listen to him talk about drones. Do it. I dare you…

    https://www.c-span.org/video/?c4576550/senator-nelsons-speech-drones

    CFarleigh (094b61)

  364. “astro” meaning star and “naught” meaning yeah we’re naught actually going anywhere near any stars it’s kind of a misnomer but you get a sweet pension

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  365. And again, Mr. Stupid. You have no f’n idea what you are talking about. Talk about talk is all you have. Do yourself a favor and shut up before you sh*t yourself even more.

    CFarleigh (094b61)

  366. Isn’t he the definition of a drone do not operate heavy machinery whole listening to them.

    narciso (4346c7)

  367. oh good lord he’s a poky lil pup ain’t he

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  368. When I refer to “the original ban”, I mean the total ban he promised, not the half-assed substitute he tried to fool people with.
    Dave (445e97) — 12/4/2017 @ 5:59 pm

    He sure fooled that HI judge.

    Pinandpuller (928a45)

  369. “astro” meaning star and “naught” meaning yeah we’re naught actually going anywhere near any stars it’s kind of a misnomer but you get a sweet pension

    Well if you live long enough to collect the pension, I suppose.

    CFarleigh (094b61)


  370. And “a total and complete shutdown of Muslims entering the United States” is still a ban.
    Dave (445e97) — 12/4/2017 @ 7:08 pm

    Yes, it would be, but what Trump did was not a complete shutdown of moslems entering the United States. Unfortunately. And it wasn’t a ban on moslems. It was a halt to all people from certain countries not just moslems. Unfortunately.

    Rev.Hoagie (6bbda7)

  371. Isn’t he the definition of a drone do not operate heavy machinery whole listening to them.

    Heh, yeah. I missed the pun. Nelson droning about drones. Of course I woulda/coulda/shoulda sold it better using it up front and all instead of this pathetic post-facto thingy.

    CFarleigh (094b61)

  372. correct

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  373. “Donald J. Trump is calling for a total and complete shutdown of Muslims entering the United States.”
    Trump never admits he’s wrong about anything, and this was no exception.
    Dave (445e97) — 12/4/2017 @ 6:11 pm

    Thought Experiment: He wasn’t wrong.

    Pinandpuller (928a45)

  374. I fear he wasn’t pin, terrorists try to make it through the gaps, and the next wave are likely to be exponentially worse. Either in Europe or here.

    narciso (4346c7)

  375. The reverse of that POW’s impression might take place in a neighborhood full of urban district High School teachers and administrators – opulent homes but the crap car is used to commute to discourage vandalism.
    urbanleftbehind (847a06) — 12/4/2017 @ 6:31 pm

    Insert go to Road House reference here…

    Pinandpuller (928a45)

  376. Yes you had to illustrate the point, I recall during the 2000 campaign how our local fishwrap painted mccollum as this dinosaur and miller in bright pastels.

    narciso (4346c7)

  377. Don’t worry guys, I put BB’s picture on Soy Milk cartons. Fingers crossed.

    Pinandpuller (928a45)

  378. Nelson, how’d that get in there.

    Meanwhile we had rollback in Utah, something of note.

    narciso (4346c7)

  379. Dave took the reds that bob bitchin passed up

    mg (60b0f7)

  380. And again, Mr. Stupid. You have no f’n idea what you are talking about. Talk about talk is all you have. Do yourself a favor and shut up before you sh*t yourself even more.

    Let’s tone it down, please.

    Patterico (115b1f)

  381. The rest of the story:

    https://mobile.twitter.com/alimhaider/status/937888701572698112

    Deripasha is very near heer compared to veselberg, blavatnik and sochin ( but the last isn’t having a great time of it either)
    Perhaps picking Marc Rich’ s old form wasn’t dis swift.

    narciso (4346c7)

  382. @362/349. Nelson was a Florida congressman in ’86. Lucky, too. His committee pull wangled seat on 61C which was delayed repeatedly over both weather and technical issues– one time due to the accidental draining of oxidizer close to launch which was luckily caught and would have forced a RTLS abort had it launched.

    The launch scheduling pressures for shuttle were absurd for an experimental machine pitched as ‘operational’ when it clearly wasn’t. (A two week turn around was never going to happen.) The tiles were always dinged and damaged, from flight 1 on; ring burn thrus as early as STS-8. The problems were there but NASA management more or less ignored the plea for fixes- as down time meant launch schedule slippage. They became acceptable flight risks and the list grew longer and longer to stay on schedule.

    The push to privatize, to meet customer demand and under priced contracts to attract business and avoid slippage penalties; the need compete w/international launch services (Ariane, the Soviets, etc.,) drove the space agency and the work force to try to meet an economic demand the shuttle simply was not up to. Reaganomics: bad management can kill.

    Post Challenger the military mothballed it own space shuttle launch complex at Vandenberg, moved its ‘business’ manifest to expendable LVs; a wiser, more economical– and safer– method of meeting their needs and shuttle stopped carrying dangerous commercial satellite payloads not already configured for its payload bay (such as some planetary probes.) It became a machine in search of a mission– hence a reduced flight schedule w/more time for turnaround and servicing, more ‘science missions’ and eventually, by the grace of one vote– assigned the task of assembling the ISS– and retired.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  383. “I lost a brother to vagina. Vagina got his a$$.” JB Smoove Curb Your Enthusiasm

    Pinandpuller (928a45)

  384. In the “Proofreaders Wanted ” section
    http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2017/12/senate-gop-accidentally-killed-all-corporate-tax-deductions.html

    Is there anything in this bill that will force investors to invest the money they save on these tax cuts in the US? If not, the idea that they will do so is a sham. They might do so, but they could also invest in Mexico or Canada or Japan…which means no benefit to the US.

    kishnevi (5cc98a)

  385. I heard a thought experiment that asked: would you sell your dog for a million dollars? Thing is, with a million dollars you can probably afford to steal your dog back.
    Pinandpuller (928a45) — 12/4/2017 @ 6:11 pm

    I’m going to have to discuss it with the dog.

    Steve57 (0b1dac)

  386. With a million dollars maybe I can afford the legal defense.

    Steve57 (0b1dac)

  387. @372 Will be ‘farleigh easy’ on you and cut you some slack. CF. You’re missing the forest for the trees.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  388. “astro” meaning star and “naught” meaning yeah we’re naught actually going anywhere near any stars it’s kind of a misnomer but you get a sweet pension
    happyfeet (28a91b) — 12/4/2017 @ 7:38 pm

    I thought this was a naughty-Cal themed thread.

    Pinandpuller (928a45)

  389. We’ve all been wrong sometime.

    Hopefully it’s not walking into an ambush.

    Steve57 (0b1dac)

  390. I can’t speak to KS and CA but TN is RTW and has no state income tax and is a growing thriving state. Looking at one factor like how much do wealthy people pay in taxes is the product of a simple mind.

    Yes, ad CA has a MUCH lower property tax than TN. It’s a mix. Truth be told, there is very little difference in the overall tax burden on median incomes in CA (8.8%) vs TN (8%).

    For someone making that median income, CA is 8th lowest in taxes among 50 states. TN is 6th lowest. New York is 48th “best” (4th worst counting DC) and Illinois is dead worst.

    Now, saying that, the property tax deduction is worth more in TN. Imagine how fair it would all seem if only income taxes were deductible.

    https://wallethub.com/edu/best-worst-states-to-be-a-taxpayer/2416/

    Kevin M (752a26)

  391. I fear he wasn’t pin, terrorists try to make it through the gaps, and the next wave are likely to be exponentially worse. Either in Europe or here.
    narciso (4346c7) — 12/4/2017 @ 7:53 pm

    They can register to vote when they get their DL.

    Pinandpuller (928a45)

  392. So there I was, having my first cup of coffee when I saw an announcement about Northrop Grumman passing a critical design review for the U.S. Navy on the Navy’s new jammer.

    Wow. It made me recall when Raytheon’s AN/SLQ-32 first came into the fleet in the late 1970s. The AN/WLR-1 techs were aghast over the idea of a digital automated electronic warfare suite that would detect incoming missiles and fire Super Rapid Bloom Offboard Countermeasures (Super RBOC) into the air to decoy inbound rounds away from the ship.

    Now, bear with me as the early morning logic trail heats up. Super RBOC deploying overhead can mask a ship electronically much like smoke screens did for visual observations during World War II.

    It reminded me of U.S. Navy Fleet Adm. William Halsey’s Dirty Trick Department during World War II. Its sole purpose was to think up things to bedevil the Imperial Japanese Navy (IJN). Operational deception, or OPDEC, begins at the deck plate level, and Adm. Halsey became a strong advocate that every engagement, campaign or battle required an element of OPDEC in it.

    And, sometimes the tools of OPDEC work surreptitiously, such as in the World War II Battle of Komandorski Islands on March 27, 1943…

    https://www.afcea.org/content/?q=Blog-operational-deception%E2%80%94sometimes-it-just-happens

    AFCEA gave me an award. If I look around maybe I can find it.

    It was a plaque.

    Steve57 (0b1dac)

  393. One thing that is left out of the tax cut discussion is that the corporate tax cut will not behave like an individual tax cut. There may be immediate increases in revenue from the lower tax rate.

    Large corporations do tax arbitrage. If one country has a high tax rate and they have a subsidiary in another country, all the markup happens at the subsidiary and they pay the bulk of their taxes there. Companies have even been doing upside-down buyouts to “become” a foreign company and escape taxation in their former home.

    The USA currently has the highest corporate income tax in the first world (3rd behind UAE and Puerto Rico). Bringing it down to 20% will put the US well under the median and presumably will cause some firms to “bring” their profits home. 20% of something is gobs better than 39% of nothing.

    Increased investing/operations in the US is 1) something we want; 2) something that ceteris paribus global companies want; 3) increases tax revenue; and 4) lowers risk to the investors. Maybe not driving them away with stupid high rates would be a good thing.

    Kevin M (752a26)

  394. Now, saying that, the property tax deduction is worth more in TN. Imagine how fair it would all seem if only income taxes were deductible.

    Kevin M (752a26) — 12/4/2017 @ 8:39 pm

    My house was built in 1944. It was framed out of four quarter red oak harvested from across the road. I have 13 odd acres and pay about $600 a year in taxes. About a quarter mile up the road at the county line property taxes more or less double. I don’t know if I’m ever going to get internet that’s not Mifi so there’s that. Also the wheel taxes vary a lot in the 95 counties. I’m sure it must be similar in CA.

    As an aside I was amused by YOLO Cty, CA.

    Pinandpuller (928a45)

  395. 392. As the article explains:

    ….Due to arcane Senate rules, the Trump tax cuts can only add $1.5 trillion to the deficit over the next decade. Last Thursday, the Senate tax bill already cost about that sum, and then McConnell started making expensive promises to his few holdouts. Susan Collins wanted a $10,000 property tax deduction for Americans in high-tax states; Ron Johnson wanted a 23 percent business-income deduction for the company that his family owns. [not just that one] This left the Senate Majority Leader searching under the tax code’s couch cushions for new sources of revenue.

    Eventually, he came upon the corporate alternative minimum tax (AMT). At present, most corporations face a 35 percent (statutory) rate on their income. But by availing themselves of various tax credits and deductions, most companies can get their actual rates down far below that figure. To put a limit on just how far, the corporate AMT prevents companies from paying any less than 20 percent on their profits (or, more precisely, on the profits that they fail to hide overseas).

    The GOP had originally intended to abolish the AMT. But on Friday, with the clock running out — and money running short — Senate Republicans put the AMT back into their bill. Unfortunately for McConnell, they forgot to lower the AMT after doing so.

    This is a big problem. The Senate bill brings the normal corporate rate down to 20 percent — while leaving the alternative minimum rate at … 20 percent. The legislation would still allow corporations to claim a wide variety of tax credits and deductions — it just renders all them completely worthless. Companies can either take no deductions, and pay a 20 percent rate — or take lots of deductions … and pay a 20 percent rate.

    I think the AMT would not apply to all deductions.

    Sammy Finkelman (e70ce9)

  396. Of course, if they’d have lowered the corporate AMT, it wouldn’t bring in so much money.

    Sammy Finkelman (e70ce9)

  397. Armed Forces Communications and Electronics Association. In case anyone wanted to know.

    Steve57 (0b1dac)

  398. Ot that far future techno noir altered carbon is coming to Netflix with kinnaman, the last robocop.

    narciso (d1f714)

  399. And a complete shutdown of people from six to eight countries isn’t.

    You should really try to pay attention before jumping into a conversation and blindly reciting talking points like a robot.

    I never said the executive order was a ban. I said that it wasn’t a ban, and that this was another example of Trump breaking his campaign promises.

    Dave (445e97)

  400. Cotrevtuon it was klimnik, the for army translator, as if you are going to find non military translators in Russia.

    narciso (d1f714)

  401. “astro” meaning star and “naught” meaning yeah we’re naught actually going anywhere near any stars it’s kind of a misnomer but you get a sweet pension

    “Nau” (pronounced nav) means ship, and “nautes” means sailor, and “nausea” means the feeling you get when you’re on a ship or you see the fuel bill for a rocket launch.

    Yeah, space travel is still pretty much a fantasy.

    nk (dbc370)

  402. Yes, it would be, but what Trump did was not a complete shutdown of moslems entering the United States. Unfortunately. And it wasn’t a ban on moslems. It was a halt to all people from certain countries not just moslems. Unfortunately.

    Read the conversation. You are agreeing with me.

    Dave (445e97)

  403. Thought Experiment: He wasn’t wrong.

    If he wasn’t wrong, then why hasn’t he implemented “a total shutdown on Muslims entering the United States?”, like he promised?

    Is Trump a traitor who us to be overrun with Islamoterrorists?

    Dave (445e97)

  404. I’ve forwarded the link to this post to Nancy Pelosi’s office, doing what I can to spread the word…

    http://thehill.com/blogs/floor-action/house/363240-pelosi-gop-tax-proposal-the-worst-bill-in-the-history-of-the-united

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  405. The stupid Democrat blue-slip specials (judges) just had to go and give him cover with the morons who actually believed that he could, or would, ban all Muslims. But considering that they and their ilk are the reason he was elected in the first place ….

    nk (dbc370)

  406. Re: the tax bill

    Nothing in either the current Senate or House bills actually matters, does it?

    They still have to basically rewrite the whole thing from scratch (again) into some form that both houses can pass.

    Dave (445e97)

  407. And again, I’m wishing for the 9th Circuit to be split and the current judges being assigned to Guam. Which then tips over.

    Kevin M (752a26)

  408. @412. =Haiku!= Gesundheit! ‘… doing what I can to spread the word’

    Shame on you, Haiku!

    Spread the Land-O-Lakes, instead. Seen better skin on a Thanksgiving turkey.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  409. Unless there is artificial gravity, better radiation shielding and a more robust propulsion system i dint think we will get very far. I mentioned webb because he was a long time govt official in state and other departments

    narciso (d1f714)

  410. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TKM7CzLytxc

    Run Silent Run Deep Official Trailer #1 – Clark Gable Movie (1958) HD

    “I don’t believe it.”

    Steve57 (0b1dac)

  411. WhAT did the good people of Guam do to deserve that, but its a good start.

    narciso (d1f714)

  412. That was based on the novel by Edward beach, and it inspired that first trek episode with the romulans

    narciso (d1f714)

  413. @414. Some points were planted as bartering chips for sure; all that matters is what gets the Trump scrawl… as long as he doesn’t sign it ‘Teddy Roosevelt’ before charging off to Mar-a-Happydale for Christmas.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  414. The bells left behind.

    http://militaryhonors.sid-hill.us/mem/jones.htm

    …First, submariners do not enjoy the publicity that other branches of service do. Many can name the pilot of the B-29 that dropped the atomic bomb or the photographer who took the famous picture of the Iwo Jima flag raising. But who can name the U.S. submarine with the most confirmed sinkings during the war? Also, who remembers that Admiral Chester Nimitz, a submariner himself, began his successful tour as Commander-in-Chief, Pacific Fleet, on 31 December 1941, at a ceremony aboard the submarine USS Grayling SS-209? A keen eye can make out the submarine’s bell mounted on the conning tower in the photograph of the ceremony.

    Second, the U.S. submarine campaign took a catastrophic toll of Japanese shipping and succeeded, while German and Japanese submarine campaigns failed.

    Third, submarines did more than sink ships. They laid mines, delivered supplies, and served as lifeguards for downed aviators. Submarines saved numerous Army Air Forces and Naval aviators, including Navy pilot George Bush, our future president, rescued by a submarine in 1944 after his plane crashed.

    Fourth, submarine attacks were not always carried out at a distance while submerged, with impersonal torpedo salvoes. The deck guns and small arms onboard World War II submarines encouraged surface combat, which was fatal for many men, including Chief Pharmacist’s Mate Arthur BEEMAN, killed while aiding a wounded officer during a surface attack. Beeman Center on the Submarine Base, Pearl Harbor, is named for him. LCDR Reggie Raymond, a Prospective Commanding Officer, was killed by an enemy bullet while on the bridge of the USS SCORPION SS-278, firing a Browning Automatic Rifle at a Japanese ship.

    Fifth, individual bravery was recognized by many decorations, including six Medals of Honor awarded to submarine commanders: Samuel DEALEY, Eugene FLUCKEY, Howard GILMORE, Richard O’KANE, Lawson RAMAGE, and George STREET. One wolfpack commander, Captain John P. CROMWELL, also received a Medal of Honor. Three of these Medal recipients – CROMWELL, DEALEY, and GILMORE – were lost in action and received theirs posthumously. Their “tombstones” are in military cemeteries in the Pacific, where they are listed on tablets among the names of those missing in action.

    Sixth, submarine duty was a lonely job with unique hazards. Aircrew have parachutes and crash landings; surface ship crews can abandon ship; infantrymen can find a hole or run. A depth-charged submariner had only one place to go: where he was.

    Finally, the casualties were great. Memorials at the BOWFIN Museum and at the Submarine Base list the 52 submarines lost, implicitly marking the deaths of over 3,500 submariners, most of whom remain lost at sea in graves that will never be found. Many losses were the subject of a grim communique such as this one in 1945: “The Submarine USS BULLHEAD SS-332 is overdue from patrol and presumed lost.”

    One of those lost was the USS ROBALO SS-273, and her Commanding Officer, Manning Kimmell. That was the second great tragedy of the war for his father, Admiral Husband Kimmel, former Commander in Chief, Pacific Fleet, who was relieved after the attack on Pearl Harbor.

    A display case in the BOWFIN Museum has a memorial to these losses: the bell of the USS WAHOO. For practical reasons, submarines left their bells behind when leaving on patrol. If a bell were left in its exposed topside mount behind the conning tower, it could make unwanted noise; if taken below, it would occupy space and present a hazard. The WAHOO exhibit notes a more ominous reason for leaving the bells behind: the ship’s bell would be a memorial if the submarine never returned. The WAHOO’s bell in fact serves as such a memorial: she was lost in 1943 with all hands, including her highly successful commander, Navy Cross recipient Dudley “Mush” MORTON, credited with 19 sinkings in one year…

    Steve57 (0b1dac)

  415. There was quite a story to him:
    http://fleetsubmarine.com/beach.html

    narciso (d1f714)

  416. @417. Radiation shielding is an issue the Mars planners aren’t keen bringing to the top of the list. it’s a problem going out, staying there for 24 months and coming back. The ‘Big Wheel’ issue for even a 1/2 g design is apparently a cost issue on top of engineering challenges. Last public hearing caught on CSPAN noted they’ve finally settled on the Earth-Moon first then Earth-Mars proposal akin to that advocated by Armstrong, Cernan and Lovell several years ago. Sort of doing a ‘Gemini’ approach in cislunar space to perfect hardware, methods and procedures before venturing out to Mars. But by the time they do send people out there, robots could land, survey and collect samples for return. Beginning to see these HSF plans as a means to an end- more about developing the necessary technologies than about actually “going.”

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  417. New York State Governor Andrew Cuomo lied recently. He said he had conversed with all the Republican individuals from Congress from New York State and they revealed to him they were being constrained under strain to vote in favor of the bill.

    There were four House individuals who votes in favor of it. Three of them said they had never conversed with the Governor and the fourth said he did however the discussion went poorly way like Andrew Cuomo said it did. He said he definitely realized that the Governor lied (about discussions) and that is; the reason he had one observer to the discussion. http://www.gurgaoncompanion.com

    I think he said Governor Andrew Cuomo utilized the contention that disposing of the finding for state and neighborhood pay charges would hurt the state spending plan.

    Alka (90a6a4)

  418. Killing silently is always difficult.

    Steve57 (0b1dac)

  419. I was looking for Christmas ornaments last night and I found a box. Inside was a scrapbook with a graduation card taped to it.

    It said,” Happy Graduation! I wanted to give this to you myself but my electric scooter is high-centered in the parking lot. I know that you’ll be a success in anything you do. Love, Mama Joon(from nut to sl*t, you’ll see!).”

    Like Mr nk says, I don’t know whether to sh*t or go blind.

    Pinandpuller (928a45)

  420. If he wasn’t wrong, then why hasn’t he implemented “a total shutdown on Muslims entering the United States?”, like he promised?
    Is Trump a traitor who us to be overrun with Islamoterrorists?
    Dave (445e97) — 12/4/2017 @ 9:16 pm

    Democrat softball fanatics with duffle bags full of guns?

    It could be called The Joker Curve if you like. There’s a sweet spot where you minimize jihadists and left-wing lunatics.

    Did you by chance have a bully who promised to beat you up every day after school?

    Pinandpuller (928a45)

  421. Mama Joon(from nut to sl*t, you’ll see!).”

    OMG I think I may be the victim of a forgery.

    Pinandpuller (928a45)

  422. Let me tell you about the legend of Rot Ben. On Christmas he dresses up in red, breaks into your house and steals your presents to give to all the little welfare boys and girls.

    Possibly related to Underwear Gnomes and Hold Nickar

    Pinandpuller (928a45)

  423. Let’s tone it down, please.

    Patterico (115b1f) — 12/4/2017 @ 8:04 pm

    You talking to me? Read the full exchange. Or is Rocket Boy one of you NeverTrump protected species? While I was gone I see he was busy on Wikipedia learnin himsrlf some stuff, intertwined with more leftist BS. You chattering classes need to get out in the real world and do real work before you start telling those of us who do how things should be done.

    There was plenty of money in that Shuttle program. What wasn’t there was a viable reason to solve the problem in that manner. Typical government waste as a result of there being no objective standards driven by market forces. The failure to understand this is fundamental to what drives ever larger government programs and thus eventually huge deficits. If you fail to understand even this relatively simple disaster, there is no hope for solving this greater problem.

    CFarleigh (094b61)

  424. By the time NASA is fixing to get ready to plan a Mars mission, SpaceX will be standing there. NASA is about the process; the planning, the developing, the environmental studies and getting next year’s funding. It’s no longer much involved in DOING. Kind of like what happened to the California freeway builders.

    Kevin M (752a26)

  425. @433. Musk’s SpaceX has never even tried to launch, orbit and return anybody yet and w/o an escape system for a crewed Dragon, NASA would not contract, hence a system was developed and tested; the only Mars Musk will ever see in Mars, Pennsylvania. He will never conduct a manned orbital flight until NASA is there to take the heat for a ‘bad day’ and cover the costs for same– which means taxpayer subsidies for commercial space. That remains a matter on contention. Once a few crewed Dragons under NASA contracting fly, investment capital may loosen but he has competition from Bezos, etc. It’s the ROI that is holding them back.

    _____

    @432. It’s ‘farleigh obvious’- you need to throttle back and try the decaf. Cracked bitter w/#132 being swept out w/t deadwood and all; had your ears pinned back by others- tagged and bagged w/161 & 189, too. Preparing a holiday gift for the Faget family—you know of him, dontcha- and will mention an OPF scamp and his static discharge– they’ll get a smile out of it.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  426. https://pjmedia.com/trending/nancy-pelosi-california-republicans-dont-belong/
    Please stay in California as the rest of the country doesn’t need your bend over and take it attitude.

    mg (60b0f7)

  427. @435. Given the flipping McConnell and Trump have over the Alabama matter along w/the tax issues and related matters of principle, it’s easy to see why Patterico and kindred spirits have had it w/a GOP gone mad. Perhaps there are enough principled and committed conservatives and indies to spark a fresh party- the New Republicans. It’s a hard fight but witnessing this crazy spiral downward may just attract enough people to give it a look. I certainly would be open to hearing out an alternative; for the Dems are old, clinging to dreams of power and offer nothing new while our Captain keeps tweeting a few strawberries short of a quart. Everybody may not agree w/a fresh outlook, but everybody may agree what’s unfolding is growing stale.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  428. http://www.sandiegouniontribune.com/military/the-intel/sd-me-puller-commissioning-20170817-story.html

    The Lewis B. Puller — named for the most decorated Marine ever — started life in a San Diego shipyard in 2015 as a humble mobile landing platform.

    But today, in the Persian Gulf, the ‘Chesty’ Puller became a warship when it was commissioned by the Navy and its designation changed from USNS to USS.

    The Navy has decided that some of its jack-of-all-trades mobile landing platforms will better serve the nation as “expeditionary sea bases,” with additional gear to support special-operations missions and airborne mine counter measures work.

    This is the latest in a history of naming roulette. These ships have also been called afloat forward staging bases.

    The redesignation of the Puller to USS saves the Navy paperwork headaches, according to a Navy official at the Pentagon.

    I can get into this later, but it’s not paperwork.

    Originally, the Navy planned to “convert” the Puller to a warship only for specific missions, said Lt. Seth Clarke. But that’s a nine-day process requiring Navy secretary approval.

    She can’t sustain combat. I doubt Chesty would be proud.

    Steve57 (0b1dac)

  429. By the way, the prefix “T” signifies a civilian crew. Which means certain things. T-AH 19 and 20 are hospital ships. T=civilian crewed. A=auxiliary. H=hospital

    It’s against the rules of war to shoot at them. Why is this relevant today? Because the USS Kearsarge, which did deploy to the Philippines, is a combatant. Which means she can have an embarked Helo detachment. And the Comfort and Mercy can’t. So while Hillary! was making a big deal about the 1000 bed Comfort not going to Puerto Rico, the 600 bed Kearsarge was a lot more useful. And the Wasp.

    http://www.cnn.com/videos/world/2017/09/27/puerto-rico-uss-kearsarge-watson-dnt.cnn

    Steve57 (0b1dac)

  430. Breaking– Jaysus, not even dawn and Ventura, CA is on fire- 27,000 evacuated; 30,000 acres consumed already; LA ‘Creek Fire’ burning as well 1,000 acres so far. High winds/low humidity forecast through midweek.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  431. That whole valley from Fillmore down is a firetrap full of fuel. I was just through there last Friday . Before I consider property, the fuel is a major factor as to clearance.

    Admiral Ben burn (b3d5ab)

  432. As a lawyer, I can confirm that I frequently compose tweets confessing to crimes and send them from my clients’ twitter accounts. It’s the first thing you learn at law school.

    Heh.

    Admiral Ben burn (b3d5ab)

  433. Douchwitz..lol

    Dershowitz went on to tell me that if Hillary Clinton had been elected, he would be defending her against scurrilous Republican attacks, and Democrats would be making the same arguments Republicans are making now. When I pointed out that the Trump­–Russia story seems objectively more important than the Uranium One “scandal,” and thus that his point was moot, he reminded me that he had defended Bill Clinton during impeachment. Eventually we got off the phone.

    http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/interrogation/2017/12/an_interview_with_alan_dershowitz_on_trump_and_the_mueller_investigation.html

    Admiral Ben burn (b3d5ab)

  434. Because God works in mysterious ways (or, at the very least, has a postmodern sense of humor), it was Donald J. Trump—gracer of Playboy covers, delighter of shock jocks, collector of mistresses—who descended from the mountaintop in the summer of 2016, GOP presidential nomination in hand, offering salvation to both Pence and the religious right. The question of whether they should wed themselves to such a man was not without its theological considerations.

    https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2018/01/gods-plan-for-mike-pence/546569/

    Admiral Ben burn (b3d5ab)

  435. You chattering classes need to get out in the real world and do real work before you start telling those of us who do how things should be done.

    Said the Trump Tower janitor to Donald Trump.

    nk (dbc370)

  436. This bill isn’t fair to the middle class. It isn’t fair to states with higher state and local taxes. And it almost certainly will explode the debt.

    Yes, I know some of you really hate that “fair” word. So… what’s your alternative, again?

    noel (b4d580)

  437. Yes, I know some of you really hate that “fair” word. So… what’s your alternative, again?

    “covfefe”

    Dave (445e97)

  438. Kearsarge, which did deploy to the Philippines

    Same war. Honest mistake.

    Steve57 (0b1dac)

  439. So… what’s your alternative, again?

    I’m fine the way I am, but as for you, I would advise that you try to build up as much good karma as possible in this incarnation so that you will be reincarnated as a billionaire in the next cycle of The Great Wheel.

    nk (dbc370)


  440. Yes, I know some of you really hate that “fair” word. So… what’s your alternative, again?

    “Rspect”

    Rev.Hoagie (6bbda7)

  441. 392. 403. 404. I am not sure this is described quite correctly. The corporate alternative minimum tax applies to certain credits and deductions.

    What they seem to be concerned about most is the research and development tax credit, the New Markets Tax Credit (supposed to incentivize projects in distressed areas) and tax free municipal bonds (mainly held by banks)

    They also didn’t do their calculations right, because the gain from applying the corporate alternative minimum tax was estimated at less than just applying it to the research and development tax credit.

    The alternative minimum tax only mattered when it would result in a higher overall tax liability than the standard tax system. Since the standard tax was 35% a corporation needed to use the credits quite a lot to get its overall tax liability below 20%. But now if the standard rate would be 20%, (starting in 2019 in the Senate bill) there’d always be zero value in any of the credits that the alternative minimum tax applied to.

    Most of the provisions of the tax bill were written with the idea t hat the alternative minimum tax would be abolished.

    One thing that means is that the House most likely won’t pass the Senate bill as is, but this may not be necessary anyway. Even if they did, they probably still could make corrections,, as they did with Obamacare (the Democrats didn’t want to fix some things at that time probably because it would have affected the budget score, and that resulted later in a lawsuit. The intention probably was to fix it later, but they lost control of the House of Representatives in the 2010 election.)

    Sammy Finkelman (e70ce9)

  442. Correction 66. 280.

    According to the CBS Evening News, the student loan interest deduction (Line 33 on Form 1040) is eliminated in both bills.

    It will still be there for 2017 tax returns of course.

    But the Wall Street Journal said yesterday it is retained in the senate bill and was eliminated only in the House bill.

    In general, I found the CBS Evening News last night, under its new anchor, less competent and more biased. A very discernable decline in quality.

    Sammy Finkelman (e70ce9)

  443. I’m from the government and I’m here to help
    I’m a lawyer

    mg (60b0f7)

  444. I’m from the government and I’m here to help
    I’m a lawyer

    Yeah…we’re gonna need 1000 feet of shore line and a left handed sky hook, stat.

    CFarleigh (5b282a)

  445. Yesterday, Monday, December 4, 2017, New Yorks Governor Andrew Cuomo, California Governor Edmund G. “Jerry” Brown (also known as Governor Moonbeam and Governor Methuselah) and New Jersey Governor- elect Phil Murray held a conference call trying to organize opposition to the new tax bill,* particularly the elimination or reduction of state and local tax deductibility:

    https://www.governor.ny.gov/news/audio-rush-transcript-governor-cuomo-california-governor-brown-and-new-jersey-governor-elect

    Governor Cuomo stated it off:

    …To add insult to injury, the tax cut is then targeted at twelve states that happen to be so-called “blue states” where they target eliminating the state and local deduction. I don’t think people understand what this will do yet, but it will be devastating for the states that are effected. It is, in essence, an increase in people’s property taxes and an increase in state income tax. Only on those twelve states. It is going to have a very negative impact, I believe, on those twelve states. I believe it puts them at a structural competitive disadvantage because structurally our taxes will then be higher than other states, which by the way, also raised revenue. They can do it to a value-added tax or real estate tax, but they’re raising revenues also. They just don’t have a property tax and an income tax, and those states that do will be at a structural competitive disadvantage….

    _____
    * (Or maybe just to promote Andrew Cuomo)

    Sammy Finkelman (e70ce9)

  446. Governor Brown:

    Thank you, Governor Cuomo. Let me say very clearly that the most immediate evil of this cynical maneuver called the tax bill is to further divide America when we’re at one of our most divisive periods in history. The idea that a president and representatives holding the majority would use that power to penalize 12 states, I believe mostly who voted strongly against the president, is not going to bring America closer together. Our biggest challenge is that we’re divided, while some of our most important competitors are getting more unified and certainly more authoritarian. We need to come together. This bill will divide the blue states from the red, the democrats from the republicans. It is evil in the extreme. That’s number one. Number two, it exacerbates inequality. The bottom 40 percent – that’s a hell of a lot of people – the hardest working, the not particularly well paid 40 percent of America – they’re going to take home 58 cents a week if they don’t live in California, New York, New Jersey, or the other nine states that are being penalized…

    He means the actual cash benefit works out, on average, to 58 cents per week, or $30 a year, if you pick your income category right, and make the right assumptions.

    Sammy Finkelman (e70ce9)

  447. “Leftist, massive ignorance, unwise, unproductive, demagogue and go home” Just a few of the courtesies you have thrown my way in the last 24 hours.

    Is this the same Rev.Hoagie that now demands “respect”?

    noel (b4d580)

  448. Sorry I had the name of the New Jersey Governor-elect wrong

    Governor-elect Murphy:

    ….I would say in a glass half full sense, Governor Cuomo started with this comment and I want to reiterate, it’s not over yet. We’re in the 9th inning.

    Each of our states have Republican members of the house. And I would say this is beyond Republican or Democrat. This is a clear cut question: are you representing your constituents who elected you, who claim to represent, or are you in with President Trump’s wrongheaded leadership in Congress? It’s black and white. We have five Republican members of the house in New Jersey. The last time this came up they voted the right way. We need all of them to vote the right way and I’m sure Governors Cuomo and Brown agree with their delegations in New York and California, respectively.

    I just remind everyone, as I turn it back over, that the SALT deduction, that has been particularly problematic in our states, has been part of the tax code since the income tax became legal in 1913. So this is back over 100 years that Congress recognized that taxing people twice was unfair and unsound, and as was already stated we are the three biggest donor states already in the United States in terms of the federal dollar give and get and this will only make it worse. I’m honored to stand with these governors.

    And I would say this, that the stronger we are together, the more locked arms we can be on issues like this and we fight together as a team, I think there’s a lot to be said for that and a lot we will accomplish and I’m honored to be on this with you gentlemen today…

    Sammy Finkelman (e70ce9)

  449. Hoover would have been embarassed so would angleton

    http://www.powerlineblog.com/archives/2017/12/ishmael-jones-the-trump-dossier.php

    narciso (d1f714)


  450. 456.“Leftist, massive ignorance, unwise, unproductive, demagogue and go home” Just a few of the courtesies you have thrown my way in the last 24 hours.

    Is this the same Rev.Hoagie that now demands “respect”?
    noel (b4d580) — 12/5/2017 @ 7:32 am

    First of all, noel my discourteous words were in response to you on two separate occasions insinuating I didn’t care about the poor and I was stupid. I replied in kind. If you argue the point and stop the insults I will accommodate.

    Secondly, I was not demanding respect. I was making a joke like Dave did with “covfefe”, a Trumpurism. I used “respect” and Obamurism. Take a deep breath lad, it’s a joke. That’s the problem with you “long time Republicans”, you lose your sense of humor. We can make our point and still remain civil.

    Rev.Hoagie (6bbda7)

  451. Strangely Illinois may not be compelled to join in that coastal grouse, seeing as its income tax is a flat 5% (MN, WI, and IA have rates in the 8-9% range, while the “Big 10 East” has rates between 5 and 3).

    urbanleftbehind (5eecdb)

  452. Hmm. The tax bill deliberately punishes northern and western states. Very divisive. Add that to the Bannon antics of attacking immigrants and defending the Confederate monuments as well as Trump’s baiting of minorities…. and I am starting to wonder what’s going on.

    Its almost as if the Bannon crowd is flirting with a Neo-Confederate ideology?

    noel (b4d580)

  453. Rev.Hoagie…. I didn’t say you were stupid. I said being a Roy Moore supporter is stupid. And pretending that this tax bill is a middle class tax cut is stupid. I still think both are unwise. But, I could be more diplomatic, thats for sure.

    As for “not caring”, I already told you that I applauded your work at your church. And I merely implied that a reverend should care about the impact of legislation on the poor. Again, I could always be more artful.

    I am not above criticism at all, but….. I wouldn’t be comparing insults if I were you.

    noel (b4d580)

  454. everything is gonna be ok i promise

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  455. Anybody who thinks Noel’s language is unacceptable, surely has withdrawn his support of Trump by now.

    noel (b4d580)

  456. No just high tax state, that’s something else entirely, now this may effect some effective members like lee zeldin of new York, but it can’t be helped;

    Projection re fusion and drumheller

    https://www.redstate.com/sweetie15/2017/12/05/fight-deep-state-plans-secret-spy-network-considered-white-house/

    narciso (d1f714)

  457. Liberals have been peddling this knock off adorno authoritarian matrix through hofstadler in the 60s and most recently perlstein in the last decade.

    narciso (d1f714)

  458. The tax bill deliberately punishes most adversely affects northern and western states

    whose Democrat-controlled legislatures have been taxing the asses off their citizens.

    Fixed that for you. Thank me, later. Telling lies is no way to build up karma if you want to come back as a the child of rich parents.

    nk (dbc370)

  459. nk… Insinuating that I am jealous is all you seem to have to go on. I am not the jealous type. At all. But since you have nothing else, just go with it.

    noel (b4d580)

  460. Thank you for the permission.

    Maybe you can answer me this. Are you and Ben burn the designated soft sell/hard sell Soros troll team for this site? You the “disappointed lifelong Republican” concern troll and Ben burn the unabashed “Progressive” troll?

    nk (dbc370)

  461. Hahaha. Oh nk. That is funny. I have worked for real Republican candidates from legislature and mayor on up. Long before Trump decided to register as one.

    We used to only be “accused” of being the Party of the rich. Now, apparently, we are that Party.

    noel (b4d580)

  462. 465/466: that alt-deep-state might be real, possibly domestically more so than abroad…how do you account for so many easy turnarounds of potential R “No” votes on the bill discussed on this post (though they may have lucked into McCain in a stage of vigorous cancerous cell expansion).

    urbanleftbehind (5eecdb)

  463. Good Moroni! Maybe Illinois, Missouri and the U.S. government were not all that wrong about the strangeness of Mormons after all.

    nk (dbc370)

  464. How do you actually, no I’d rather not find out, great kobols ghost.

    narciso (d1f714)

  465. 454/ 457. I think Governor Cuomo means a real estate transfer tax (which was never deductible) and what Governor-elect Murphy:means by “donor states” are states that, by the late New York Senator Daniel Patrick Moynihan’s calculation, contribute more to federal revenue than they get back. (not states where bigger political donors come from.)

    460. urbanleftbehind (5eecdb) — 12/5/2017 @ 7:59 am

    Strangely Illinois may not be compelled to join in that coastal grouse, seeing as its income tax is a flat 5% (MN, WI, and IA have rates in the 8-9% range, while the “Big 10 East” has rates between 5 and 3).

    The “3” here must be a typo. Five percent is still something, and without SALT, could become more like 8%.

    The Governors had a bit of difficulty by the question that, after all, aren’t they defending rich people from taxation? That’s why Governor Cuomo talked about the impact on the budget, and taking money from states.

    They also had some difficulty with the idea of a legal challenge. Governor Brown didn’t really see one here – this is political. Although he went with the spin as it went along. Governor Cuomo apparently thinks maybe lawyers can find an issue over the question of this being a a tax on a tax – and it would be a case of first impression. He also called for doing something similar to what the Republicans did with Obamacare.

    You know I believe interest from state and municipal bonds are free of federal income tax because of a court challenge, although maybe that’s not good law now. They are covered by the alternative minimum tax, I think, and now must be reported in any case, (line 8b on Form 1040) and they factor into some calculations in connection with other tax law provisions, although they are not included in Total Income (line 22) or Adjusted Gross Income. (line 37, carried over on to Line 38 on the next page.)

    Sammy Finkelman (e70ce9)

  466. Some “live” reporting of the SCOTUS oral arguments in the Colorado gay wedding cake case here: https://www.wsj.com/livecoverage/supreme-court-cake-gay-rights-same-sex-colorado

    “If the parts don’t fit, you must acquit.”

    nk (dbc370)

  467. “INDEPENDENT” COUNSEL: More Anti-Trump Messages Reportedly Sent By Members Of Mueller’s Team: “A Lot More Is Going To Come Out.”

    http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-12-05/more-anti-trump-messages-reportedly-sent-members-muellers-team-lot-more-going-come-o

    Colonel Haiku (9298f8)

  468. Not to cast aspersions on nk unnecessarily as I did in the Garbage Tax Bill post earlier this morning, but my Greek co-worker held Mormons in the same ill repute as Muslims

    urbanleftbehind (5eecdb)

  469. 473… Missouri don’t show me sh*t.

    Colonel Haiku (9298f8)

  470. Bow it looks like they will be moving that embassy to Jerusalem, ragnarok to follow.

    narciso (d1f714)


  471. I am not above criticism at all, but….. I wouldn’t be comparing insults if I were you.

    I won’t, noel. I hope from this point on we can disagree and discuss things civilly. Perhaps we just got off on the wrong foot. I just want you to understand I don’t think you’re a bad person, or stupid or evil if I disagree. I just think you’re wrong. I’ve changed my mind before after all I started out as a Democrat in 1972. Sh!t happens. I’ll listen change my mind. What I won’t do is listen to hysterical crap. Leftists have a bad habit of making everything “The end of the world” and I don’t respond well to that. Maybe immature college kids think cow farts cause glow ball warming but, please.

    Rev.Hoagie (6bbda7)

  472. They call it “baptism of the dead”, their (Mormon) attempts to “save” their souls.

    Colonel Haiku (9298f8)

  473. Noel insists he’s a Republican, Comrade Hoagie… no leftist, he.

    Colonel Haiku (9298f8)

  474. Well, I have Mormon neighbors (one door over) and Muslims in the family, so I am not like that Greek. Every religion has its witchcraft, I guess. I scoff at the Shroud of Turin too.

    nk (dbc370)


  475. ….but my Greek co-worker held Mormons in the same ill repute as Muslims

    I know. Those damn suicide bombing Mormons should be on the no-fly list. Killers!

    Rev.Hoagie (6bbda7)

  476. “We used to only be “accused” of being the Party of the rich. Now, apparently, we are that Party.”

    http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/democrats-are-now-the-party-of-the-rich-so-why-not-tax-the-rich/article/2642320

    Colonel Haiku (9298f8)

  477. Well mccaskill and ed Nixon, do not speak to their perspicacity.

    TheolgicLly they seem to be camping on already established ground, but I’m nit going to hold it against them. Are there any doctrinal differences between Catholics and orthodox not organizational?

    narciso (d1f714)


  478. 483.Noel insists he’s a Republican, Comrade Hoagie… no leftist, he.

    “Comrade” Hoagie? My dear Colonel, what’s going on here?

    Rev.Hoagie (6bbda7)

  479. narcisco, you made me look up “perspicacity”. Very shrewd of you.

    Rev.Hoagie (6bbda7)

  480. Are there any doctrinal differences between Catholics and orthodox not organizational?

    Principally, the Filioque, whether the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father or from the Father and the Son. Also, the bodily ascension of the Virgin, and I don’t even ….

    The organizational differences, these days without a Western and Eastern Roman Emperor, stem from the concept of the primacy of the Pope. Administration is one thing, but the Greek Orthodox do not concede that any bishop is above any other in spiritual matters.

    nk (dbc370)

  481. Interesting I thought he was considered a distinct person, but I can see how they would come to that conclusion.

    narciso (d1f714)

  482. 487, they were the unwitting victims of mainstream Dem muckraking of the BLM – HRC couldnt allow a challenge from farther “wight” middle america, although it took an Akin for their reelection.

    urbanleftbehind (5eecdb)

  483. Your friend in the struggle, comrade Hoagie.

    Colonel Haiku (9298f8)

  484. If this bill punishes states that overly tax their citizens, including my own, I support it. Citizens need to feel the pain of electing stupidity.

    Murphy is a moron who is going to bankrupt the state and is promising to immediately make people unemployable with a $15 minimum wage and tons more spending and giveaways to the state unions.

    Keep it up. Maybe I’ll finally pull the plug and move to more rational areas.

    NJRob (b00189)

  485. A practical guide for not screwing up the “United” States.

    #1 Don’t deliberately punish liberal states with double taxation. They may get back in power. Real soon.

    noel (b4d580)

  486. If you want more Twitter followers you should ghostwrite a newspaper editorial.

    Pinandpuller (c15a71)

  487. @491 now do benghazi

    Davethulhu (fab944)

  488. @496 noel

    Isn’t paying taxes a privilege? Some are more privileged than others. And liberal states with “double” taxation are in power in their states.

    Pinandpuller (c15a71)

  489. I’m sure Mueller FBI guy could get a transfer to the ISS. Ask some questions.

    Pinandpuller (c15a71)

  490. Eliminating state tax deductions is like dropping pallets of guns around Mexico. Rise up!

    Pinandpuller (c15a71)

  491. Off-topic: Russia banned from 2018 Winter Olympics for cheating

    But they would never try to influence our election…

    Dave (445e97)

  492. OH BOY! Your tax dollars at work:

    Huell Howser investigates The US/Mexican Border

    Pinandpuller (16b0b5)

  493. 498… go watch “13 Hours”, Cthulhu…

    Colonel Haiku (7f045b)

  494. Interesting I thought he was considered a distinct person, but I can see how they would come to that conclusion.

    If you mean the Pope, they consider him First Among Equals (primus inter pares) as Bishop of Rome. But I understand that that is a different position from that of Pope even with Catholics.

    nk (dbc370)

  495. But they would never try to influence our election…

    Dave (445e97) — 12/5/2017 @ 10:59 am

    Sure they would, just as 0bama did with Israel and just as Democrats in the past worked with the Soviets to influence ours.

    Colonel Haiku (7f045b)

  496. a very good question… https://hotair.com/archives/2017/12/05/werent-huma-abedin-cheryl-mills-charged-lied-peter-strzok-fbi/

    Colonel Haiku (7f045b) — 12/5/2017 @ 11:32 am
    Rush: “Huma Danger”

    Pinandpuller (16b0b5)

  497. I can get into this later, but it’s not paperwork.

    Originally, the Navy planned to “convert” the Puller to a warship only for specific missions, said Lt. Seth Clarke. But that’s a nine-day process requiring Navy secretary approval.

    She can’t sustain combat. I doubt Chesty would be proud.

    Steve57 (0b1dac) — 12/5/2017 @ 5:10 am

    In a vessel PT test is there such a thing as girl push-ups? No offense intended to another Puller.

    Pinandpuller (16b0b5)

  498. Huma Dangler

    Colonel Haiku (7f045b)

  499. No father son and holy spirit

    narciso (d1f714)

  500. That whole valley from Fillmore down is a firetrap full of fuel. I was just through there last Friday . Before I consider property, the fuel is a major factor as to clearance.

    Admiral Ben burn (b3d5ab) — 12/5/2017 @ 5:36 am

    Is that an environmentalist’s bug or a feature?

    Pinandpuller (16b0b5)

  501. This bill isn’t fair to the middle class. It isn’t fair to states with higher state and local taxes. And it almost certainly will explode the debt.

    Yes, I know some of you really hate that “fair” word. So… what’s your alternative, again?

    noel (b4d580) — 12/5/2017 @ 5:57 am

    Now you know why CA and NY want rid of the EC and proportional senators.

    Pinandpuller (16b0b5)

  502. Strangely Illinois may not be compelled to join in that coastal grouse, seeing as its income tax is a flat 5% (MN, WI, and IA have rates in the 8-9% range, while the “Big 10 East” has rates between 5 and 3).

    urbanleftbehind (5eecdb) — 12/5/2017 @ 7:59 am

    It’s almost like the 12 so called states in question are the ones who wouldn’t sign on to an Article Five Convention.

    Pinandpuller (16b0b5)

  503. Has anyone here ever watched Brotherhood? It just started replaying on Showtime. It’s like if they moved The Wire to Boston but I haven’t heard any “Jimmies” yet. They stick with the pure unadulterated slurs. Just like gram gram did, with love.

    Pinandpuller (16b0b5)

  504. I briefly mentioned this series some years ago

    http://collider.com/altered-carbon-trailer-netflix/#images

    narciso (d1f714)

  505. 517… yes, it’s pretty good… I think it’s more like Rhode Island (simmer down, Rear Admiral, no reds involved). That guy who plays the maniac older brother does a good job.

    Colonel Haiku (7f045b)

  506. Off topic: (What the Communists used to call, back in the 1940s, “boring from within” by an anti-Israel group)

    https://www.wsj.com/articles/anti-israel-activists-subvert-a-scholarly-group-1512337924

    Emails unearthed in a federal lawsuit appear to show that the American Studies Association’s decision to boycott Israel was orchestrated by a small cadre of academics who infiltrated the ASA’s leadership to demonize the Jewish state…

    ….The emails suggest that secrecy was part of the strategy. As nominees sought election to leadership in late 2012, many explicitly agreed to hide their anti-Israel agenda from the ASA’s voting members. “I feel it might be more strategic not to present ourselves as a pro-boycott slate,” Ms. Maira wrote. “I would definitely suggest not specifying BDS, but emphasizing support for academic freedom, etc,” wrote David Lloyd, a professor of English at the University of California, Riverside.

    But Nikhil Singh, a New York University professor of social and cultural analysis and history, cautioned Mr. Lloyd, Ms. Maira and others against subterfuge: “I think that not revealing something this important and intentional and then hoping later to use the American Studies Association national council as a vehicle to advance our cause will not work and may well backfire, because it will lack legitimacy.”

    The warning went unheeded. Only one BDS supporter running for a seat on the National Council mentioned his support for a boycott resolution in his candidate statement. He lost. Those, who hid their support won. More recent Israel-boycott campaigns at larger academic organizations like the Modern Language Association have failed.,,,

    Sammy Finkelman (02a146)

  507. What’s happening with No collusion

    Benghazee!!Hillary!SethRich!Pizzagate!Yellowcake1and2!

    Admiral Ben burn (b3d5ab)

  508. 517… yes, it’s pretty good… I think it’s more like Rhode Island (simmer down, Rear Admiral, no reds involved). That guy who plays the maniac older brother does a good job.

    Colonel Haiku (7f045b) — 12/5/2017 @ 12:21 pm

    I knew it was RI but I was being cute. What the heck happened to Annabeth Gish between Brotherhood and Sons of Anarchy? It looked like she dropped two weight classes and there was nothing wrong with her.

    Here’s a good true crime podcast about RI Crimetown

    Pinandpuller (16b0b5)

  509. Scientists in Switzerland are hard at work with the Hadron SuperColluder trying to find answers for ABB.

    Pinandpuller (16b0b5)

  510. That’s someone else’s Rebel Yell pin. The standard debating strategery.

    Admiral Ben burn (b3d5ab)

  511. If you think about it Trump is kind of a Super Conductor.

    Pinandpuller (16b0b5)

  512. Mirror universe and star gates, yes its the guy from the last terminator film and white house down (his from down under)

    narciso (d1f714)

  513. Mueller and company is at Absolute Zero.

    Pinandpuller (16b0b5)

  514. ‘Are, ‘are, ‘are!

    Pinandpuller (16b0b5)

  515. Annabeth Gish would have been a dark horse pick for an early 1990s treatment of Wonder Woman.

    urbanleftbehind (c54a05)

  516. Or another way to say it: Mueller only spent seven million dollars to get to Absolute Zero.

    Pinandpuller (16b0b5)

  517. 510. A better question than about Hillary because there’s no question really that they lied to the FBI. It’s open and shut. They said they didn’t know about the fact that clintonemail.com had its own server, (and was not serviced by some corporation) but they did.

    Sammy Finkelman (02a146)

  518. Conservative Dave the Science Guy

    Would you fact check this tweet I just sent out?

    Nominate Robert Mueller for the Nobel Prize in Science: He spent $7 million and got to Absolute Zero.

    Pinandpuller (16b0b5)

  519. Strzok had intimate knowledge of a bunch of things. For starters, a married “top” attorney.

    I’ll bet she was, eh squire?

    Pinandpuller (16b0b5)

  520. Gish is hard on teh eyes…

    Colonel Haiku (7f045b)

  521. “I knew it was RI but I was being cute.”

    That must have been the source of the whooshing noise over my melon…

    Colonel Haiku (7f045b)

  522. In other news today Robert Mueller approves of Paul Manafort’s request to spend Christmas with his wife in Nakatomi Tower.

    Pinandpuller (16b0b5)

  523. 49. I am not sure this is correct, because the accounting is probably done on an accrual basis, not a cash basis. But there still should be ways to do something like that. Just ordering goods. And a special New year’s sale. The example I read involved use of immediate expensing of capital expenditures That kicks in in 2018. I wanted an even more intriguing example.

    Here is what I said could happen

    Most other changes kick in on January 1, 2018, except for the corporate income tax cut in the Senate bill, which takes effect on January 1, 2019 in the Senate bill, creating interesting profit opportunities for big very profitable corporations, where they can make money by selling things at a slight loss.

    (Send out a catalog in late 2018, don’t bill or charge credit cards until after the New year of 2019 – expenses reduce taxes by 35%, but revenue that comes in the next calendar year is only taxed at 20%, so for instance cost of advertising and mailing catalogs and goods is $10,000, gross revenue from sales is only $9,000, but the corporation nets $700, because the expenses reduce taxes by $3,500 – assuming nothing else is lowering the rate – while the $9,000 increases taxes by only $1,800. That’s $1,700 in difference, and minus the $1,000 loss there is $700 net!)

    As I said above, maybe you couldn’t postpone recognizing the sale(s) just by not billing or charging immediately.

    Sammy Finkelman (e70ce9)

  524. Ot, a little knken thriller, sortof the female version of American asdasin, is finally basing filmed, o noted this because Blake lively wee on set

    narciso (d1f714)

  525. I believe that most middle class taxpayers would prefer all of those deductions for SALT, interest, healthcare etc. rather than not having them…. in order to fit everything on that little “postcard” tax return.

    Size doesn’t matter.

    noel (b4d580)

  526. One important point: They are setting the standard deduction at a level so that only about 10% of all tax returns will not use it. (It’s now around 30% who itemize – the 70% who do not, of course, included teenagers etc)

    In some counties the average deduction for state and local income taxes is high but that’s like averaging Bill Gates’s income or ban account with that of a dozen random individuals. The amount of the deduction by the median person using it, or even the 75th percentile, is much lower.

    Now when everybody takes the standard deduction, this is the same as a different (lower) tax rate.

    And this obviates the whole purpose of deductions, which is to treat differently situated taxpayers differently. You’re not taking account of state and local taxes. You are giving the same deduction or amount of tax owed, to people who have these expenses and people who do not.

    And it’s the people who have higher living expenses who get taxed more.

    Now they are considering restoring it, perhaps under a $10,000 cap (is that for BOTH income taxes and real estate taxes combined?

    Now people at very high levels now do not fully benefit from SALT because they are currently hit by the Alternative Minimum Tax, whose computation does not exclude state and local taxes. (the AMT has lower tax rates though)

    Sammy Finkelman (e70ce9)

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