Patterico's Pontifications

11/24/2017

Questioning the Roy Moore Accusers vs. Believing Them and Saying “So What?”

Filed under: General — Patterico @ 2:30 pm

There are two types of partisans who support Roy Moore: those who question the most serious of the allegations against him, and those who accept the allegations as true but say we should support him anyway.

It is the latter group — people who say “sure he’s guilty but vote for him anyway” — that I continue to find inexplicable. I run a personal blog at patterico.com and have done so since February 2003. Over there, I have a guest poster who is also a long-time reader named Dana. She’s an excellent blogger who deserves to be more widely read, and she had this to say about the Roy Moore situation:

The worst example of party loyalty is when a sexual predator’s bad behavior is brushed away, rationalized, overlooked, or worse: acknowledged as being rooted in truth, or altogether true but dismissed anyway because supporting the party trumps everything else – especially when an election is involved. And even if the opponent is as morally pure as driven snow, better to have an accused sexual predator in office than one from across the aisle.

Emphasis is mine.

When I recently wrote a post targeting those who believe Moore’s accusers but support him anyway, my post was repeatedly misread as attacking people questioning the claims of the accusers. In this post, I’m removing any chance for a fair-minded reader to misread what I am saying, by emphasizing the bolded language above.

So let me be crystal clear: for the sake of this post, we are going to assume for the sake of argument that all of the most troubling aspects of the accusations are false. We’ll assume for the sake of argument that multiple women got together and contrived a political hit on Moore, fabricating evidence against him in an effort to keep him out of office.

Isn’t there still room to criticize people who have said: “Even assuming the allegations are true, we should vote for him anyway”? Even if those people are mistaken about the allegations being true, isn’t it troubling to you that someone would say that?

I saw that in comments to my recent post, some people were saying I was trying to “cherry pick” these comments as having come from unimportant people. But one of the people who said this was the governor of Alabama, who said she had no reason to question the accusers, but that people should vote for Moore anyway.

It’s not “cherry picking” to note a claim from the governor of Alabama. And the accusers include someone who said Moore tried to have sex with her when she was 14.

Dana titled her post on this topic When Party Loyalty Begets a Collective Moral Bankruptcy:

But convenience is not limited to the left side of the aisle. The disgust I have at the Democrats’ decades-long denials and efforts to dismiss and rationalize Bill Clinton’s awfulness until politically convenient to admit them, is the same disgust I feel about the right side of the aisle currently circling the wagons around Roy Moore. . . . It’s taken a long time, but Republicans are now this close to becoming as morally bankrupt as are the Democrats.

This is the problem when you say “maybe it’s true but vote for him anyway.” You become morally bankrupt. If you believe in God as the foundation of morality, how can you justify voting for someone you have said you believe to be a child molester, whether you’re wrong or not? It makes no sense to me, at all.

And what basis do you have to criticize those who support Al Franken’s butt cheek grabs or John Conyers’s escapades? The only thing you can say is: well, their policies are bad. Because you have already legitimized supporting sexual assaults for the purpose of politics. The only weapon you have left is that the other side’s politics are worse.

And even if you didn’t care about moral bankruptcy, your precious political power is not exactly enhanced when independents see Republicans shrugging their shoulders at child molestation.

If you want to question the accusers, and you can do so in a factual way that does not rely on rumor and fever swamp smears, that is appropriate. But if your argument is “vote for the guy I believe to be the child molester, FOR THE CHILDREN!” then you have lost your way.

Roy Moore may well still win this election. But there is a giant wave coming in 2018. The Senate will almost assuredly be firmly in the hands of the Democrats, whether Roy Moore is in the Senate or not.

And when that wave has washed over you, and your majority and your soul are both gone, what will you have left to show for it then?

[Cross-posted at RedState and The Jury Talks Back.]

498 Responses to “Questioning the Roy Moore Accusers vs. Believing Them and Saying “So What?””

  1. Is there a link to the governor’s statement?

    BuDuh (fc15db)

  2. “And when that wave has washed over you, and your majority and your soul are both gone, what will you have left to show for it then?”

    I know elections have consequences but now how people in another state vote determines the fate of my soul??

    Fonzi on water skis for about the 15th time in a year.

    harkin (a9a478)

  3. “vote for the guy I believe to be the child molester, FOR THE CHILDREN!” then you have lost your way.

    You expect too much from them. Your argument is logical but theirs is emotional,..trumping all logic.

    Are you truly trying to persuade?

    Admiral Ben burn (b3d5ab)

  4. @3. Ben– It’s a win if he wins and a win if he loses. Partisanship, hyper-partisanship— or what ever be the label of the week- are just terms for failure as zealous ideologues battle insurgent pragmatists. You can sense which side is losing. Sit back and enjoy the fight; let ’em have their civil war.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  5. If one determines that one is at war, one almost necessarily chooses to align with unsavory characters. Right, Uncle Joe?

    That is the moral calculus.

    After decades of Democrat immorality (to be kind) it is understandable to me that folks on the right have decided they must engage with like practices. Lee Atwater was not wrong.

    I withheld my vote for DJT despite the most evil candidate of our lifetimes being the opponent. I’d struggle to withhold a vote for Moore today. Not when Franken and Conyers are being given a pass.

    Ed from SFV (3400a5)

  6. I think the “so what” position is wrong, but it’s not wholly unreasonable.

    How about this:

    I don’t see anything in the Constitution which disqualifies a serial killer on death row from getting elected to the Senate, so long as the prison housing him is located in the State he would be representing. Not to get too judgy, but I’d venture to say that, all other things being equal, voters should conclude that they should not vote for such an individual on the ground of character.

    However, this serial killer is a Republican, who would permit his colleagues to enter his vote by proxy for all judicial nominees, including the next 2 or 3 Supreme Court nominees, and these judicial slots may open rather soon, as Justices such as Ginsberg get older & frailer.

    So why not say:

    “Hey, this guy’s a morally repulsive degenerate, and I’ll celebrate his execution, but while he’s alive, we can use his Senate vote to lock in a pro-liberty jurisprudence for the next 30 years.”

    This argument becomes more compelling with our almost perfectly divided Senate, in which a single vote may very well be determinative.

    There’s a couple problems with this argument, which others can elaborate if anyone cares. But I don’t think it’s wholly irrational, and I think this kind of argument animates the thinking of at least a minority of Moore supporters. David Horowitz might be an example.

    Brian (3af743)

  7. But I don’t think it’s wholly irrational, and I think this kind of argument animates the thinking of at least a minority of Moore supporters.

    They may be under the illusion they are thinking.

    Admiral Ben burn (b3d5ab)

  8. Alabama governor plans to vote for Moore even though ‘I have no reason to disbelieve’ accusers:

    “I certainly have no reason to disbelieve any of them,” Ivey said. “The timing is a little curious. But at the same time, I have no reason to disbelieve them.”

    DRJ (15874d)

  9. Of course Ray Moore will win. They voted for a president that the Bezos-Republicans tell us hosted a lesbian piss party in his hotel room.

    jcurtis (0d8007)

  10. Thanks for the link full of cherry-picked quotes, DrJ.

    Is there a link to a complete transcript or full audio of the Q&A with the governor?

    BuDuh (ca3d28)

  11. @8 & 10 Thanks for the link full of cherry-picked quotes, DrJ.

    There you go, DJR – you try to be just a bit obliging around Thanksgiving time, and the moocher that comes ’round pan-handling just will have none of that, thankyouverymuch!

    Q! (86710c)

  12. Saying you don’t know whether the accusations are true is not the same thing as saying you believe them.

    James B. Shearer (951d11)

  13. Is it possible the GOP could have their cake and eat it, too? Say Moore wins and the powers that be voice indignant outrage, seat him all the same, get his votes for the tax reform or any other rushed pieces of legislation in the near term, then move to initiate the process to expel him. Democrats would be put in the position of either letting a rumored child molester remain in office for obvious political gain in the net cycle or join the effort to expel him. If this is possible, it’s not very principled but reasonably pragmatic.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  14. Ben– It’s a win if he wins and a win if he loses. Partisanship, hyper-partisanship— or what ever be the label of the week- are just terms for failure as zealous ideologues battle insurgent pragmatists. You can sense which side is losing. Sit back and enjoy the fight; let ’em have their civil war.

    DCSCA (797bc0) — 11/24/2017 @ 3:18 pm

    Ever the partisan.

    You voted for Hillary, the rapist protector, right?

    NJRob (b00189)

  15. Hi, Q!. Do you have a link that provides the entirety of the governor’s Q&A?

    BuDuh (ca3d28)

  16. @13 DSCA Say Moore wins and the powers that be voice indignant outrage, seat him all the same

    Not that it’s at all critical to your post, but I believe it is fairly well settled that he cannot be refused his seat, assuming he wins. (That option (refusal to seat) applies in quite limited circumstances, not applicable here.) Expulsion thereafter – yes, that’s an option. (All of which you may well know already, in any event.)

    Assuming Moore wins (still quite likely, imo), I wouldn’t be at all surprised if the interest in exploring the allegations and in possibly expelling him may well take a softer turn and a lower flame than current rhetoric might suggest, however. A case of ever-vanishing principles . . . but the holidays tend to make me cynical, so there’s that . . .

    Q! (86710c)

  17. I’ll put it bluntly: the choice is between a man who may or may not have attempted to f(ornicate) an underaged girl 38 years ago, vis a vis a man who, if elected, will do his best to f(ornicate) the entire country now.

    Our esteemed host said, I think on twitter, that if Mr Moore loses, that’ll be one less vote for the Republican tax plan which will raise his personal tax bill by $10,000+ a year. If Mr Jones wins, the junior Senator from Alabama won’t vote to support the tax plan.

    He also won’t support:

    1 – Any conservative nominee to the Supreme Court;
    2 – Any measures to try to curb government spending;
    3 – Any pro-life measures;
    4 – Any action to curtail or end Affirmative Action;
    5 – Any action to curb illegal immigration or help deport illegals already here more efficiently;
    6 – Any measures that make any actual sense.

    No, I don’t want Mr Moore in the Senate, but I want Mr Jones there even less.

    Mr Moore may or may not be personally repugnant; Mr Jones is politically repugnant, and Alabamans will be voting to fill a political office.

    The coldly realistic Dana (ecab7a)

  18. Thanks for the link full of cherry-picked quotes, DrJ.

    BuDuh (ca3d28) — 11/24/2017 @ 4:09 pm

    Maybe you asked for tres cerezas, por favor.

    Pinandpuller (38eb0f)

  19. 1. It is possible to believe that electing a child molester to congress will do less harm to our nation than electing a Democrat would. That does not make you morally bankrupt; it means that there is truth in the statement that perfect is the enemy of better.

    2. Way to use your time, energy, and effort to criticize your potential allies and signal your virtue. I’m so glad you’re “concerned” about that particular subset of Moore supporters. Maybe you could have used the time to write something about the Democrats who are opposing Moore. Like McCain and McConnell, National Review, and PJMedia. And maybe yourself? I don’t read you often enough to tell.

    lpdbw (374e83)

  20. There are several videos of her press confetence, BuDuh. Here and here and you can find more if you want.

    DRJ (15874d)

  21. Thank you, DrJ. I’ll have a look.

    BuDuh (ca3d28)

  22. Mr Moore may or may not be personally repugnant; Mr Jones is politically repugnant, and Alabamans will be voting to fill a political office.
    The coldly realistic Dana (ecab7a) — 11/24/2017 @ 5:13 pm

    It’s sort of a moot point. Only about 42% of the regular commenters here are registered to vote in Alabama.

    Pinandpuller (38eb0f)

  23. At the risk of incurring collective wrath, I’m going to touch on a very touchy subject.

    Moore has been called on this blog and across the internet a “pedophile” and a “child molester” based on the assumption that the allegations are true. This is a good example of how loose language leads us to false dichotomies.

    A “pedophile” is an adult — a sexually mature male — who has a sexual attraction to PREPUBESCENT children of either sex.

    Girls typically begin the process of puberty at age 10 or 11, and boys generally begin at age 11-12.

    A male who is attracted to post-pubescent females — even ones under 18 — is not a “pedophile”. And while post-pubescent females under the age of 18 are minors by default (capable of being an emancipated minors in many states at various ages younger than 18), they are no longer “children.”

    The age of consent in Alabama is — and was then — 16. Neither of the two youngest women involved in the allegations against Moore were 16 at the time of the episodes — both said they were 14.

    So, even if true, Moore is not a “pedophile” under the accepted definition of that term, and Moore is not a “child molester” as both were minors, but not children.

    We know from recent reporting that the court hearing taking place the morning they allegedly met concerned an effort by her father to obtain physical custody of Leigh Corfman due to “disciplinary and behavioral issues” while in her mother’s custody. There is only brief mention in the original WaPo story about her remembering telling Moore she was only 14.

    But there is this passage from the story that now rings a little less than truthful given the nature of the custody hearing that took place:

    Betsy Davis, who remains friendly with Corfman and now lives in Los Angeles, says she clearly remembers Corfman talking about seeing an older man named Roy Moore when they were teenagers. She says Corfman described an encounter in which the older man wore nothing but tight white underwear. She says she was firm with Corfman that seeing someone as old as Moore was out of bounds.

    “I remember talking to her and telling her it’s not a good idea,” Davis says. “Because we were so young.”

    A second friend, who spoke on the condition of anonymity for fear of losing her job, has a similar memory of a teenage Corfman telling her about seeing an older man.

    After talking to her friends, Corfman says, she began to feel that she had done something wrong and kept it a secret for years.

    “I felt responsible,” she says. “I felt like I had done something bad. And it kind of set the course for me doing other things that were bad.”

    She says that her teenage life became increasingly reckless with drinking, drugs, boyfriends, and a suicide attempt when she was 16.

    It seems odd to me that Corfman would say — which she clearly does in the article — that it was her incident with Moore that sent her off into a downward spiral of boyfriends, drinking, and drugs, given that it was misbehavior and disciplinary issues that brought her to court that morning AND caused a judge to remover her from her mother’s custody and place her with her father, which happened before her first encounter with Moore.

    And this incongruous recollection of the sequence of events also calls into question the contemporaneous confirmation from friends who claim they told her at the time, and now 40+ years later they are sure it was Moore she was talking about — even though none has ever come forward in all the years Moore was a prominent official in Alabama.

    We also have the big credibility issues now with the yearbook and the substantial likelihood the inscription attributed to Moore is a forgery.

    shipwreckedcrew (56b591)

  24. That 1st YouTube did the trick, DrJ. I was unable to find anything that complete. Thank you again.

    I have to agree that what she said is closer to what has been argued here.

    Sorry for the cherry picking dig.

    BuDuh (ca3d28)

  25. @14. You voted for Hillary, the rapist protector, right?

    Wrong. Voted for Trump to successfully neuter the modern ideological conservative movement. So far, so good. :-)

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  26. I know elections have consequences but now how people in another state vote determines the fate of my soul??

    No, but they assuredly will determine the fate of your majority. Patterico’s point, which you may have missed, is: It’s a bad idea to sell your soul for the sake of a transitory majority in the Senate.

    gwjd (032bef)

  27. Our honored host wrote:

    If you believe in God as the foundation of morality, how can you justify voting for someone you have said you believe to be a child molester, whether you’re wrong or not?

    Forgiveness of sin is a major tenet of Christian morality. Has Mr Moore, assuming that he really committed these sins, asked the Lord for forgiveness? We don’t know, because he has denied the allegations. I could see how a candidate who has asked for such forgiveness might still choose to deny the accusations during a political campaign, because admitting seeking forgiveness is also confirming the allegations. That would be Mr Moore’s personal cross to bear.

    Regardless of the answer, the accusations against Mr Moore all date to over thirty years ago; if he did commit these acts, at least he seems to have reformed himself since then. I’d note that the law has that element of forgiveness as well, in the form of statutes of limitations.

    The choice for Christians in Alabama is: should they vote for a man who is accused of, but denies having committed, sexual sins nearly four decades ago, or voting for a candidate who supports the killing unborn children today. Voters there might have to hold their noses while voting for Mr Moore, but voting for Mr Jones would be the greater sin.

    In his 1891 encyclical Rerum novarum, His Holiness Pope Leo XIII clarified the ‘doctrine of double effect.’ Double effect notes that some actions have both a good and an evil component. For the act to remain moral, the good must outweigh the evil. Given the special evil that abortion constitutes — anyone who has, pays for, performs or assists in performing an elective abortion incurs a latae sententiae excommunication, one that is automatic even if Church officials are unaware of the act — it is clear that voting for someone who will defend the abortion on demand, right up to natural birth position of the Democratic Party is a greater evil than voting for someone who will do what he can to end that barbarism even though he may have tried to seduce an underaged girl 38 years in the past.

    Keeping Doug Jones out of the Senate is the greater good which outweighs whatever evil attends supporting Roy Moore.

    The Catholic Dana (ecab7a)

  28. @16. Q– right, understood. They have so many arcane rules as is, though, the manipulation of the matter certainly seems likely in some fashion, assuming he wins.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  29. You might keep saying that, disco, but that’s nowhere near true. Now mcturtle have taken pruning shears to the party like the applewhite gang but that has nothing to do with trump.

    narciso (d1f714)

  30. Courtesy of the Zman.com:


    The Neocon Mind That’s the Progressive mind. The cause comes ahead of everything. When Barak Obama won in 2008, he could have demanded a human sacrifice at his inauguration, and the Left not only would have supported it, they would have claimed only racists opposed human sacrifice. We are seeing the same thing play out with the neocons, who have made their loony “NeverTrump” cause into something close to a cult. Every event is spun into some weird conspiracy or bizarre outrage. Hating Trump is their reason to exist.

    Fact is the leftists have been engaged in an all-out war with America since the 60’s. Finally conservatives have decided to fight dirty too and the left suddenly becomes morally outraged (which is so amusing). Bull! Fighting to win is ugly, but winning is so damn beautiful! Winning! We can MAGA or we can let the leftist communists keep on winning because our guy ain’t perfect. Oddly, all this is about Moore against whom there still is no verifiable evidence of wrong doing.

    Rev.Hoagie® (6bbda7)

  31. Shipwreckedcrew
    —Never mind the allegations of sexual misconduct

    Moore believes that judges and elected officials should pick and choose the laws they obey and enforce based on their private religious views. Furthermore he has acted on that position.

    Seems to me that’s a far more dangerous position–rejecting the rule of law–than anything Jones supports. Or do you think that doesn’t matter?

    kishnevi (0dce2b)

  32. Why be concerned about electing a possible child molester? Republicans regularly elect people who push grandmas in wheelchairs off cliffs and want to put y’all back in chains.

    Pinandpuller (38eb0f)

  33. To Catholic Dana@27 and Rev Hoagie @ 30, I ask the same question I asked SWC.

    kishnevi (0dce2b)

  34. @16. @Q- Postscript. Not so sure any longer term strategy by D’s to label the GOP as ‘the party of pedophiles’ would stick in this low bar era anyway. Their problem is less ideas and mostly age; everybody is too old or retreads w/minimal appeal. If Mueller doesn’t nail Trump– or our Captain goes from strawberries to bananas w/dementia– suspect he will win a second term if he chooses to run. Anybody of the current stuffed-shirts who tries to primary him will likely fall short.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  35. Mr Nevi wrote:

    Moore believes that judges and elected officials should pick and choose the laws they obey and enforce based on their private religious views. Furthermore he has acted on that position.

    Such as Democrats deciding not to support existing laws such as defending traditional marriage laws? Such as liberals supporting ‘sanctuary’ policies, defying the laws of the United States with which they disagree?

    That Mr Moore has chosen, in the past, to view the laws of God as superior to those of men has twice cost him his seat on the Alabama Supreme Court; that the left are choosing to support their political judgements over the laws of the land is worse than what Mr Moore has done. At least Mr Moore was supporting a better position than the Democrats of today.

    The practical Dana (ecab7a)

  36. Exactly, they are still counting bodies in el a fish, and we’re still focused on this garbage. It was about 4 years between the luxor attacks (organized by zawahiris group) and 9/11. Maybe next time it Wil be st. Paul’s cathedral or something closer.

    narciso (d1f714)

  37. Wrong. Voted for Trump to successfully neuter the modern ideological conservative movement. So far, so good. :-)
    DCSCA (797bc0) — 11/24/2017 @ 5:36 pm

    So how much did you save by cutting out the rape middle man?

    Pinandpuller (38eb0f)

  38. No problem, BuDuh.

    DRJ (15874d)

  39. This is how the average leftist views the Moore situation:


    Adam Weinstein
    @AdamWeinstein

    Stop saying the sitting biblical conservative congressman whose extramarital infidelities were exposed is a victim. Revenge porn statutes do not exist to protect powerful men from exposure for gross hypocrisy. Statutes are not and ought not to be power-neutral

    2:06 PM – Nov 22, 2017

    Once again without thinking a leftist lets slip his loathing of the Constitution. This time for equal treatment under the law. Quelle surprise!

    Rev.Hoagie® (6bbda7)

  40. To the practical Dana–
    Moore has gone farther than the Democrats. They stick to loopholes and judicial process. They pay lip service to the rule of law. Moore would jettison it.

    kishnevi (d7d2b1)

  41. What is somewhat amusing is his publication, gasket is on life support because it took that tack, with regards to Peter thiel.

    narciso (d1f714)


  42. Seems to me that’s a far more dangerous position–rejecting the rule of law–than anything Jones supports. Or do you think that doesn’t matter?

    I am far less worried about bad or evil decisions being made by a person asking “What would Jesus do” than the current group who seem to wonder “What would Stalin do”. Even a non Christian like kishnevi should recognize the morality of trying to be as good a person as Jesus. When did that become a negative?

    Rev.Hoagie® (6bbda7)

  43. sitting biblical conservative congressman whose extramarital infidelities were exposed

    Conyers is a biblical conservative? That’s the only Congresscreature I know of whose pecadillos are being discussed.

    Admittedly I spent the day immersed in the bowels of Black Friday, so perhaps I missef something.

    kishnevi (d7d2b1)

  44. What loophole did they use again with doma, or prop 8, or 187 or 209, or amendment 2 in Colorado, or sb 1070?

    narciso (d1f714)

  45. I think the reference to Barton, who has long since past his shelflife.

    narciso (d1f714)


  46. 40.To the practical Dana–
    Moore has gone farther than the Democrats. They stick to loopholes and judicial process. They pay lip service to the rule of law. Moore would jettison it.

    Moore has on occasion done exactly what Never Trumpers believe they are doing: deciding by his sense of morality. Could be worse, could be Sharia. But then the left would love his decisions, wouldn’t they? Come on admit it!

    Rev.Hoagie® (6bbda7)

  47. The worst example of party loyalty is when a sexual predator’s bad behavior is brushed away, rationalized, overlooked, or worse: acknowledged as being rooted in truth, or altogether true but dismissed anyway because supporting the party trumps everything else – especially when an election is involved. And even if the opponent is as morally pure as driven snow, better to have an accused sexual predator in office than one from across the aisle.

    I don’t see why it is worse to acknowledge the accusations as true (or possibly true) but decide this shouldn’t be vote determining. At least in that case you aren’t calling the accusers liars.

    James B. Shearer (951d11)

  48. Meanwhile the travismockasham continues in another fromt

    https://t.co/layMe9iY11?amp=1

    narciso (d1f714)

  49. Well first off, there have been plenty of people over the centuries who have answered the question “What would Yeshu do?” by saying “Kill Jews!”

    More broadly, if Moore can say “Yeshu wants us to do this”, then a Moslem has equal rights to say “Allah wants us to do this”. And Stalinist to say “in the name of the People!” Which is why Moore should not be allowed to say that.

    kishnevi (d7d2b1)

  50. And that’s a serious misreading of scripture, yes we have a stAlinist red squaw fraud from massachussetts another who got their through embezzlement and voter fraud,

    narciso (d1f714)

  51. @29. McTurtle 101: make full retreat appear a strategic withdrawal.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  52. @37. Still tallying the body count, PP.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  53. It took two decades but it’s kind of heartwarming to see liberals collectively declare:

    Linda Tripp was right!

    harkin (a9a478)

  54. They aren’t being serious, it’s curious how the most relevant example of sexual harassment on the policy level isn’t talked about.

    narciso (d1f714)

  55. We’re obligated to believe 40 year old charges so that Californians won’t be required to pay their fair share of Federal taxes?

    Richard (5fe947)

  56. kishnevi — I think you are overstating his views in that regard. However, even to the extent it is true, I’m much less concerned about that personal religiosity when held by a legislator than I am when held by either an executive branch member charged with enforcing the law, or a judicial officer charged with interpreting the law.

    shipwreckedcrew (56b591)

  57. There are problems with the accounts of Moore’s accusers: Beverly Young Nelson’s yearbook has been doctored, and Leigh Corfman was already such a delinquent that her mother was in court to transfer custody to the father on the day Moore met mother and daughter.

    ropelight (a26aed)

  58. We’re obligated to believe 40 year old charges so that Californians won’t be required to pay their fair share of Federal taxes?

    Wow, talk about bad faith. That’s deliberately misstating the argument Patrick made in the post.

    Chuck Bartowski (211c17)

  59. swc, may I remind you that Moore was a judicial officer charged with interpreting the law?

    kishnevi (d7d2b1)

  60. Shipwreckedcrew
    —Never mind the allegations of sexual misconduct

    Moore believes that judges and elected officials should pick and choose the laws they obey and enforce based on their private religious views. Furthermore he has acted on that position.

    Seems to me that’s a far more dangerous position–rejecting the rule of law–than anything Jones supports. Or do you think that doesn’t matter?

    kishnevi (0dce2b) — 11/24/2017 @ 5:44 pm

    What makes you believe Jones or any leftist is going to follow the rule of law? Is it their disrespect for Christians or their ignoring the Constitution? Is it trying to put innocents in jail who disagree with their social values?

    Please elaborate.

    NJRob (b00189)

  61. All that is needed for Socialists to obtain power is for free men to insist on having clean hands.

    Kevin M (752a26)

  62. Moore is explicit, and avows that personal belief should override everything else. The Leftists at least pretend that is not so. He takes the final logical step.
    At bottom, he is in this respect, a Leftist. If the Leftists are wrong, he is even more wrong. The fact that he wants results that are superficially ones you like should not blind you to the underlying problem. The Left wants to drive Christians out of the marketplace? Moore believes sodomy should be a capital crime….

    kishnevi (d7d2b1)

  63. All that is needed for Socialists to obtain power is for free men to insist that having clean hands is irrelevant.

    FTFY.

    kishnevi (d7d2b1)

  64. Is an “accused sexual predator” still a predator if he takes “No!” for an answer? If your answer is “Yes”, then what is the guy does not take “No” for an answer?

    You may wish to consider that when you start your argument with loaded terms such as “sexual predator”, when another person might call him “a clumsy oaf who couldn’t get laid for $20.00 in a $2.00 [rhymes with door]house”, you might get some less than measured responses.

    nk (dbc370)

  65. the guy *who* does not take “No” for an answer

    nk (dbc370)

  66. .eftista are wrong because they believe in the heresy that Satan propagated, that one can create heaven on earth, that man needs no moral code than what he conjures for his own ends. This is where we find ourselves in 2017.

    narciso (d1f714)

  67. Moore believes sodomy should be a capital crime….

    For real? Or is it “There you go again” along the lines of my previous comment?

    nk (dbc370)

  68. Moore is explicit, and avows that personal belief should override everything else. The Leftists at least pretend that is not so. He takes the final logical step.
    At bottom, he is in this respect, a Leftist. If the Leftists are wrong, he is even more wrong. The fact that he wants results that are superficially ones you like should not blind you to the underlying problem. The Left wants to drive Christians out of the marketplace? Moore believes sodomy should be a capital crime….

    kishnevi (d7d2b1) — 11/24/2017 @ 7:50 pm

    So you’re saying he’s worthy of being a Democrat on the Supreme Court like our “wise latina” or “international constitutions” ala Ruth Bader Ginsburg.

    NJRob (b00189)

  69. So who is the mist powerful force certainly in western Europe, is that faith that has supplanted the thin gruel that passes fir. Christianity, that was the premise of houllebecqs submission bow one of the survivors of bataclan an event not remembered by any major publication, committed suicide.

    narciso (d1f714)


  70. #1. Well first off, there have been plenty of people over the centuries who have answered the question “What would Yeshu do?” by saying “Kill Jews!”

    #2. More broadly, if Moore can say “Yeshu wants us to do this”, then a Moslem has equal rights to say “Allah wants us to do this”. And Stalinist to say “in the name of the People!” #3. Which is why Moore should not be allowed to say that.
    kishnevi (d7d2b1) — 11/24/2017 @ 6:12 pm

    #1. “over the centuries” has nothing to do with Moore, now and here. Good try.
    #2. Moslems and Stalinists have a modern, contemporary and current reputation for advancing death, slavery and harm. Modern Christianity does none of those things as a matter of faith.
    #3 When you say Moore “should not be allowed to say that” are you speaking as a leftist hate speech determiner or just an anti free speech citizen? And if he should not then why can Ruth Bader, Sotomotomayer and assorted and sundry leftists be allowed? Everybody has morals, some good some bad. So far by eliminating those big bad Christians we’ve marched continuously leftward in a stupor of deconstruction.

    BONUS: “I would hope that a wise Latina woman with the richness of her experiences would more often than not reach a better conclusion than a white male who hasn’t lived that life”. I’ll take Roy Moore any day.

    Rev.Hoagie® (6bbda7)

  71. Did someone dial tie eleven, while I want looking?

    narciso (d1f714)


  72. Moore believes sodomy should be a capital crime….

    kishnevi (d7d2b1) — 11/24/2017 @ 7:50 pm

    Except it’s not, kishnevi and even if Moore were President it would not be so. Therefore, your point is moot.

    Rev.Hoagie® (6bbda7)

  73. Lately, every single member of Congress who is in the Democrat Party has voted a party line on every major piece of legislation. Their Senators do everything in their power, as a bloc, to delay the most trivial nomination.

    It took FIVE MONTHS to confirm Callista Gingrich as Ambassador to the Holy See.

    This isn’t really something people have fought over before.

    The Democrat appointees to the Supreme Court are as monolithic a bloc as ever could be. If they had their way, there would be no Second Amendment, political speech would not be a right, and nuns would have to buy abortion insurance.

    So, how can anyone claim a moral high ground to putting another of their number in the Senate? Child abuse 40 years in the past, or more general abuse to everyone in the near future.

    One does not have to be supporting a party out of blind obedience in order to hold one’s nose and vote for someone distasteful. Presumably one has some allegiance to the basic principles of the party and understands that we have a government of parties, not men.

    Is it morally acceptable to vote for a person who would vote to diminish your freedom, just so that you can say “I didn’t vote for the jerk on our side?”

    Kevin M (752a26)

  74. All that is needed for Socialists to obtain power is for free men to insist that having clean hands is irrelevant.

    Sounds like “Gentlemen don’t read other gentlemens’ mail”

    Kevin M (752a26)

  75. Wel. It took till After September 11th, to break the hold on negropnte because nearly 20 year
    lAter the deems couldn’t move on Otto reach had to be recess appointed for much if the same reason.

    narciso (d1f714)

  76. re: “This is the problem when you say “maybe it’s true but vote for him anyway.” You become morally bankrupt. If you believe in God as the foundation of morality, how can you justify voting for someone you have said you believe to be a child molester, whether you’re wrong or not? It makes no sense to me, at all.”

    The perfect is the enemy of the good. In wartime, you support the USSR if that is what you think is necessary. In fact, it might even be good to learn some tactics from the Left and turn them on them. Besides, it is the GOP establishment that is morally bankrupt, and you know those dirtbags have supported this whole campaign against Moore. Their only regret is that this came out too soon.

    Donaldo (95053d)

  77. Here he rests. By God, he died with clean underwear and his self esteem intact.

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  78. How b0noble did hershendohn losing to Barbara boxer feel like?

    narciso (d1f714)

  79. It’s simple and pathetic. Pooter, Wee Eric, and BillY Bob Kristol have lost any relevance they once thought that they had. And money,
    Scorch the earth boys. Let the commies win. Then make your big come back.
    Patterico isn’t even smart enough to see his own demise. Wee Eric will tell him, when it’s time.

    JOM (30b6bd)

  80. Hi Gus.

    Patterico (0170be)

  81. Forgiveness of sin is a major tenet of Christian morality. Has Mr Moore, assuming that he really committed these sins, asked the Lord for forgiveness? We don’t know, because he has denied the allegations. I could see how a candidate who has asked for such forgiveness might still choose to deny the accusations during a political campaign, because admitting seeking forgiveness is also confirming the allegations. That would be Mr Moore’s personal cross to bear.

    My head is spinning. So he has asked God for forgiveness while publicly claiming he didn’t do it? How does that work, exactly?

    Patterico (0170be)

  82. The imprtantest thing is to elect Mr. Roy Moore cause nobody wants to validate these sleazy honey boo boo smear tactics.

    happyfeet (60512a)

  83. oops *importantest* I mean

    not impressed with this Surface tab thinger I’m using today

    happyfeet (60512a)

  84. The uni-party is made up of slip and sue walmart lawyers.

    mg (60b0f7)

  85. Only the 2nd time in the last century their has been an increase of 35 year old or less new farmers. 69 % have college degrees. The resurrection of rural America will be the savior of this nation.

    mg (60b0f7)

  86. And when that wave has washed over you, and your majority and your soul are both gone, what will you have left to show for it then?

    Patterico channels Jonah Goldberg’s characterization of the Trump-led, ethics-optional GOP as “the party of Wales“…

    “Why Richard, it profits a man nothing to give his soul for the whole world…but for Wales!?” – Sir Thomas More, A Man for All Seasons

    Dave (445e97)

  87. So you believe that joining the NY Times, WaPo, and assorted leftist rags, the Democrats in congress, the pro Democrat talking heads and all the usual partisans of the left in condemning a person based on a 40 year old event accused by a female who kept silent until now and providing no proof or evidence is the moral way to go? Then all that legal mumbo-jumbo about being innocent until proven guilty is only for Democrats and especially not for Trump supporters? I see.

    Your virtue signaling is nauseating.

    Rev.Hoagie® (6bbda7)

  88. @90 Your typical unthinking fulminations about the left are risible. Doncha think there’s more than a few good God-fearing conservatives who share the judgment of Alabama’s own conservative Repubican governor, that she has “no reason to disbelieve” the women who have accused Moore of sexual misconduct? Of course not. “Thinking” just ain’t your thing, Rev. Nor is honest debate, apparently.

    Q! (86710c)

  89. That’s right Q!, do what leftists do best attack me personally. I’m a “God-fearing conservative” and as such believe Moore is entitled to be considered innocent until he’s proven guilty. Do you believe every accused person is guilty? You mention a Republican governor who has “no reason to disbelieve” the woman who accused Moore. She also has a greater reason not to believe her. Now you being a leftist won’t care about fairness or justice or even guilt or innocence. All you care about is a Senate seat and hurting Trump. But like I said before, either we’re all innocent until proven guilty or the left wins. When you want to ruin a man it’s not what you “believe” that counts, it’s what you can prove.

    Rev.Hoagie® (6bbda7)

  90. Hoagie hates Leftists…loves wringers.

    Admiral Ben burn (b3d5ab)

  91. “… But there is a giant wave coming in 2018. The Senate will almost assuredly be firmly in the hands of the Democrats … ”

    Get your head out of your …

    Neo (d1c681)

  92. I’ll just take a pass on being Leftist.

    Admiral Ben burn (b3d5ab)

  93. Rev. Not perzackly. It’s what you can get people to believe, or pretend to believe and then preach to yet others.
    Patterico makes a false distinction between disbelieving the accuser and believing the accuser but saying so what. For P and leftists, they are morally identical. That would be the usual case. But we have to add the juicy possibility of hurting Trump.

    Richard Aubrey (415087)

  94. Myopia is a feature rather than a bug for the Sightless Party.

    Admiral Ben burn (b3d5ab)

  95. You can’t hurt a Masochist.

    Admiral Ben burn (b3d5ab)

  96. https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2017/11/25/want-to-know-why-roy-moore-might-win-blame-the-media-215863

    Like myself they halfway want him to win just to see the Washington Fire.

    Admiral Ben burn (b3d5ab)

  97. @92 Rev. That’s right Q!, do what leftists do best attack me personally

    As Ronald Reagan said, dear Rev., “There you go again.” I note that your “response” does not respond at all to the substance of my comment, but only to the gloss I placed on your lack of seriousness or honesty. Which such gloss you once again (it’s like by rote, Rev.!) confirm the accuracy of. Your teachers must be so proud.

    Q! (86710c)

  98. Mr Nevi wrote:

    To the practical Dana– Moore has gone farther than the Democrats. They stick to loopholes and judicial process. They pay lip service to the rule of law. Moore would jettison it.

    Oh, I think not. The Democrats are perfectly happy with defying the law . . . when such defiance suits their political positions. Remember how the left told us that immigration law was the sole purview of the federal government, when we had Presidents who wouldn’t enforce immigration laws, and cities and states tried to restrict illegals? Now that we have a President willing to enforce immigration law, things have changed.

    The very practical Dana (ecab7a)

  99. But there’s something really funny about the White House’s confirmation that Flynn pulled out of the joint defense agreement, along with their pathetic claims this doesn’t mean Trump is in trouble.

    Jay Sekulow, an attorney for Trump, said, “This is not entirely unexpected.”

    “No one should draw the conclusion that this means anything about General Flynn cooperating against the president,” he said, adding, “It’s important to remember that General Flynn received his security clearance under the previous administration.”

    Confirming to the press that Flynn pulled out of the joint defense agreement involves confirming that the White House had a joint defense agreement with his lawyers. And that entails confirming that the President is being targeted in matters closely tied to Flynn’s own actions.
    https://www.emptywheel.net/2017/11/24/the-dumb-ass-poker-faces-in-the-white-house-just-admitted-their-investigation-coincides-with-mike-flynns/

    Admiral Ben burn (b3d5ab)

  100. 101 You use Medical Marijuana to justify your claim Dems routinely violate Federal law? There are so many ignorant assumptions in your screed I don’t know were to begin.

    Admiral Ben burn (b3d5ab)

  101. Double dumb-ass on ya..

    Admiral Ben burn (b3d5ab)

  102. Goshdurn it, Hoagie! You keep engaging those two dorks, Bun burn and (lgbt)Q!, and it encourages them that at least one person here gives a sh!t about what they have to say. Blocking script, my friend. Blocking script.

    nk (dbc370)

  103. Our esteemed host challenged me:

    Forgiveness of sin is a major tenet of Christian morality. Has Mr Moore, assuming that he really committed these sins, asked the Lord for forgiveness? We don’t know, because he has denied the allegations. I could see how a candidate who has asked for such forgiveness might still choose to deny the accusations during a political campaign, because admitting seeking forgiveness is also confirming the allegations. That would be Mr Moore’s personal cross to bear.

    My head is spinning. So he has asked God for forgiveness while publicly claiming he didn’t do it? How does that work, exactly?

    Surely I wasn’t unclear about this: I said that he may have asked God for forgiveness, but we do not know whether this has occurred. Further, I stated, very directly, that if he has, he may also have made the political calculation that making public an act of contrition would be admitting to the allegations being true, and he thought that would be a worse thing to do politically.

    It might be the wrong calculation, if that’s what happened. The then-Governor of Arkansas had to admit that he had “caused pain in his marriage,” and it didn’t seem to harm him in his next election.

    Just so there is no misunderstanding, I believe, personally, that yes, the allegations against Mr Moore are probably true, at least in general, though possibly some of them are false individually.

    The very Catholic Dana (ecab7a)

  104. Another so-called Christian

    Figgers..

    Admiral Ben burn (b3d5ab)

  105. Patterico absolootly correct.

    One must confess before any forgiveness is considered.

    Admiral Ben burn (b3d5ab)

  106. I am so sick of cults.

    Admiral Ben burn (b3d5ab)

  107. Mr Bartowski wrote:

    We’re obligated to believe 40 year old charges so that Californians won’t be required to pay their fair share of Federal taxes?

    Wow, talk about bad faith. That’s deliberately misstating the argument Patrick made in the post.

    Alas! that isn’t quite true. Our rather distressed host has made several arguments concerning the effect that the tax bill would have on the deficit — which is my reason for opposing it as well — but the passion he has expressed hasn’t been about the deficit, but about his personal tax bill.

    The economist Dana (ecab7a)

  108. X-rated public confessions are a thing only among some Protestant revivalist sects. It’s partly their substitute for the stuff they’re not allowed to read or watch, and partly sharing “dating” tips and who’s available for what.

    nk (dbc370)

  109. Some Christians consistently associate with the wrong people.

    For his own nefarious reasons, Harry Anslinger, the first commissioner of the U.S. Treasury Department’s Federal Bureau of Narcotics, demonized marijuana—he encouraged people to believe that marijuana was nothing but a scourge on society and could lead to psychosis, insanity, and even murder. Anslinger’s actions are directly responsible for the passage of The Marijuana Tax Act of 1937 that outlawed possessing or selling cannabis in the U.S.

    In 1970, the Marijuana Tax Act was repealed and an even more restrictive and consequential law was passed: The Comprehensive Drug Abuse Prevention and Control Act. This new law designated marijuana as a Schedule I drug and the reasons it was designated as such can be traced back to the misinformation and outright lies of the 1930s. Once marijuana received the Schedule I designation, its fate was sealed.

    Marijuana Is a Schedule I Drug. It Must Be Dangerous

    business man with his head buried in the sandPoliticians, lawmakers, law enforcers…all of them can point to marijuana’s designation as a Schedule I drug as solid evidence that marijuana is bad, and should be illegal. It’s like heroin. It’s like LSD. It must be dangerous. It’s on the same list as those other really dangerous drugs. But few look any further to understand why it’s on that list – they won’t learn that it ended up there without any scientific evidence to prove that it has high potential for abuse and no medical use. No evidence at all.

    Legitimate Medical Applications

    Dr. Sanjay Gupta once supported the DEA’s position on marijuana but now says that, “We have been terribly and systematically misled for nearly 70 years in the United States, and I apologize for my own role in that.” Not only does he now believe that the drug has “very legitimate medical applications,” he says that “sometimes marijuana is the only thing that works.”

    http://marijuanapolitics.com/marijuana-is-a-schedule-i-drug/

    Admiral Ben burn (b3d5ab)

  110. Oh yes. Everyone finds nk a fascinating thinker with such literary verve

    Don’t block him if he amuses you.

    Admiral Ben burn (b3d5ab)

  111. Seaman washout Burn wrote:

    Patterico absolootly correct.

    One must confess before any forgiveness is considered.

    But to whom must the confession be made? If one is asking God for forgiveness, Protestants would say the confession must be made to God. Catholic hold that confession must be made to God, with a priest as a witness, to assign penance and give absolution. If Mr Moore has confessed his sins to God, and sought forgiveness, that still does not mean he must confess them to the voters. If he has been lying about the allegations against him, that would be another sin, but does not remove any forgiveness for the prior ones.

    It was 1994, and there were three of us in the batch office at the Hampton plant. One guy, a Protestant of some denomination, said that we Catholics had it easy: sin all we want during the week, then go to Confession on Saturday, and all was forgiven. Jeff beat me to the answer: “That’s because you’ve never sat in that chair.” I would guess that confession might be easier when you are doing so in private prayer, than Confession, where you have to make it to another human being. It isn’t always easy!

    I always do my penance in Latin.

    The extremely Catholic Dana (ecab7a)

  112. Failed Seaman Recruit Burn wrote:

    Dr. Sanjay Gupta once supported the DEA’s position on marijuana but now says that, “We have been terribly and systematically misled for nearly 70 years in the United States, and I apologize for my own role in that.” Not only does he now believe that the drug has “very legitimate medical applications,” he says that “sometimes marijuana is the only thing that works.”

    Colorado legalized sale, possession and use of marijuana for recreational purposes for people over 21. the result was as anyone could have told them: marijuana usage has soared among teenagers.

    As for ‘medical’ marijuana, the prescription drug Marinol is used for that. The ‘medical marijuana’ advocates just want a foot in the door for recreational usage; everyone knows that, too.

    The blogger Dana (ecab7a)

  113. Your ignorance is breath-taking dana.

    Admiral Ben burn (b3d5ab)

  114. Our Windy City barrister wrote:

    X-rated public confessions are a thing only among some Protestant revivalist sects.

    During the early medieval period, Confession was not private, but had to be made to the entire congregation.

    Nevertheless, that to which nk refers might better be described as PG-13 at most.

    The historian Dana (ecab7a)

  115. I would attempt to reformat your hard drive but it’s easier if you just buy a new one.

    Admiral Ben burn (b3d5ab)

  116. During the early medieval period

    Repeat that in your head a few times.

    Admiral Ben burn (b3d5ab)

  117. Two of my responses to Mr Burn went into the trash.

    The Dana in limbo (ecab7a)

  118. Good riddance!

    Admiral Ben burn (b3d5ab)

  119. The very catholic Dana – Di te ament

    mg (60b0f7)

  120. Mr Burn — and everyone else — should follow me on Twitter! If Instapundit and our host do, I can’t be all bad!

    The Dana on Twitter (ecab7a)

  121. Your testing my altar boy days of memorization, Dana!!!

    mg (60b0f7)

  122. I don’t know what the answer is but I’m not sure I agree that private remorse is enough. God forgives us when we are remorseful but He also wants us to repent and change our sinful ways. Part of repenting is taking responsibility for our sins, apologizing to those we sin against, and trying to repair the harm we’ve done. That can’t be done in private.

    DRJ (15874d)

  123. I suspect Catholic priests hear the same things in confession. Humans aren’t very creative with their sins.

    DRJ (15874d)

  124. Means “And with your spirit,” which His Holiness Pope Benedict XVI had redone as he insisted that the English form of the Mass needed to conform more closely to the Latin. “And also with you” was used for decades.

    To be honest, I preferred the English responses before Pope Benedict made the changes. Yes, they aren’t as close to the Latin, directly, but they flowed better in English than the current. It has been years since the change, and I’m still not used to them.

    My Latin improved when my priest in Jim Thorpe started using Latin in the Mass during Lent. And if you are inclined to watch the Mass on EWTN, the People’s responses are given in Latin, which will help refresh your memory.

    The diligently Catholic Dana (ecab7a)

  125. 5 “And when you pray, you must not be like the hypocrites. For they love to stand and pray in the synagogues and at the street corners, that they may be seen by others. Truly, I say to you, they have received their reward. 6 But when you pray, go into your room and shut the door and pray to your Father who is in secret. And your Father who sees in secret will reward you.

    7 “And when you pray, do not heap up empty phrases as the Gentiles do, for they think that they will be heard for their many words. 8 Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him. 9 Pray then like this: Matthew 6. Read the whole thing.

    nk (dbc370)

  126. http://www.breitbart.com/big-government/2017/11/24/nolte-shaky-allegations-roy-moore-not-enough-disqualify/

    Best article yet Ive read on the Moore accusations.

    “Excuse me for speaking a hard truth, but all victims should NOT be automatically believed. (See: Mockingbird, To Kill a.) Yes, they should be taken seriously, but then their accusations must be fully and fairly investigated. Unfortunately, our media disagrees.

    As it is with all things, when it comes to Roy Moore, our blazingly dishonest media are not seeking to inform or illuminate. Rather, they are using the Moore scandal as yet another weapon in a relentless and highly partisan campaign of emotional blackmail meant to define just who is and is not a good person.

    Just as the media do with guns, abortion, homosexuality, Obamacare, and Trump, all of their coverage is geared towards pressuring you to agree with them because if you do not agree with them, that means you are an immoral and indecent person.” [Remind you of anyone we know?]

    harkin (10a18c)

  127. DRJ wrote:

    I suspect Catholic priests hear the same things in confession. Humans aren’t very creative with their sins.

    Oh, I’m sure that’s true, and any priest will tell you that. Still, while venial sins are easy to confess, sitting in that chair, knowing that you have to tell the truth about all of your sins isn’t a lot of fun. To go to Confession and deliberately withhold something is a sin in itself, because it means receiving absolution invalidly; that’s considered blasphemy.

    Most priests these days don’t push you for details, but I remember one Saturday at St Joseph’s in Hampton, Virginia. Confession — it’s called Reconciliation these days, but I stick with the old name — was scheduled at 4:00 PM, and there was a Mass at 5:00. Father Morris was hearing Confession, and for whatever reason, he was going really long with it, apparently pressing people. Father Majewski came in around 4:30 — apparently he was scheduled to celebrate the Mass that afternoon — took one look at the long line remaining, quickly set up another confessional in the small side chapel, and let me tell you, he was racing through things to get Confession done.

    The devoutly Catholic Dana (ecab7a)

  128. Just as rich persons have a more difficult Christian path, the political Christian is hobbled. Stumbling nonbelievers is the hazard to both.

    Admiral Ben burn (b3d5ab)

  129. As hard as it may be to confess sins to a priest, it’s still private. Shining light on our sins by publicly repenting is what makes us change.

    DRJ (15874d)

  130. I remember getting 5 hail marys and 10 acts of contrition for confessing – swearing in church! 1957.

    mg (60b0f7)

  131. Is praying the same as confessing, nk?

    DRJ (15874d)

  132. Goshdurn it, Hoagie! You keep engaging those two dorks, Bun burn and (lgbt)Q!, and it encourages them that at least one person here gives a sh!t about what they have to say. Blocking script, my friend. Blocking script.

    nk (dbc370) — 11/25/2017 @ 6:59 am

    It’s up to the boss to decide if he wants to take out the trash. They’re here to throw feces around. Now to debate constructively.

    But I do agree with you that they get off on having people acknowledge and debate their nonsense.

    NJRob (b00189)

  133. That’s right Q!, do what leftists do best attack me personally. I’m a “God-fearing conservative” and as such believe Moore is entitled to be considered innocent until he’s proven guilty. Do you believe every accused person is guilty? You mention a Republican governor who has “no reason to disbelieve” the woman who accused Moore. She also has a greater reason not to believe her. Now you being a leftist won’t care about fairness or justice or even guilt or innocence. All you care about is a Senate seat and hurting Trump. But like I said before, either we’re all innocent until proven guilty or the left wins. When you want to ruin a man it’s not what you “believe” that counts, it’s what you can prove.

    Rev.Hoagie® (6bbda7) — 11/25/2017 @ 6:17 am

    100% correct.

    NJRob (b00189)

  134. 100% correct.

    LOCK HER UP!

    Admiral Ben burn (b3d5ab)

  135. You don’t like being reminded of your inconsistency but that’s too bad.

    Admiral Ben burn (b3d5ab)

  136. That chapter in Matthew seems to say so, DRJ. God already knows. He will also know if we have repented and done recompense. He does not need to know that we have already told the same thing we are telling Him to x-number of people in order to believe us.

    nk (dbc370)

  137. He could keep confessing/caressing/confessing because Christians aren’t perfect, just forgiven..

    Admiral Ben burn (b3d5ab)

  138. Just a reminder, but conservatives want AG Sessions to open up an investigation on Hillary’s crimes. The left just wants to murder 100 million conservatives just like Billy Ayers. They look at Stalin and Mao as role models.

    NJRob (b00189)

  139. I think Hobby Lobby wanted the elephant parts Donnie Jr wanted to import but I can’t find the link.

    Admiral Ben burn (b3d5ab)

  140. Inconsistency is a conservative prerogative. Uranium/yellowcake and decisions based on emotion they can manage without side-splitting internal conflicts.

    Tight-fistedness..war mongering..
    Nativist…white fright.

    Hey! You have plenty of consistency.

    Admiral Ben burn (b3d5ab)

  141. I wish I knew the answer, nk. I think our relationship with God is important, and true remorse and repentance will be rewarded with forgiveness. But doesn’t God expect us to also change our behavior? How can it be a real change of behavior if we keep the truth buried? Isn’t that The opposite of change?

    The parable of the servants we discussed a few weeks ago comes to mind. One servant begged to have his debts forgiven but after receiving it, denied the same forgiveness to another servant who owed him money. He was cast out for not understanding the real meaning of repentance and forgiveness. It is not enough to accept forgiveness, as if the point is our own self-pity and salvation. We must also extend forgiveness to others by being merciful. How is it merciful and forgiving to protect our reputations and let others suffer because we want to keep our wrongful acts a secret?

    DRJ (15874d)

  142. At the very least, isn’t an apology in order when we have wronged someone? Or is telling a priest enough, even if it lets us save face and continue to act like we did nothing wrong?

    DRJ (15874d)

  143. Even Alcoholics Anonymous counsels members to make amends/restitution.

    Admiral Ben burn (b3d5ab)

  144. Beliving or not beliving Moore’s accusers is completely irrelevant. ‘Belief’ has no proper place in the discussion. Evidence is what counts, hard evidence, verifiable evidence.

    And, the evidence so far indicates that Beverly Young Nelson’s yearbook is a forgery, straight up: different color ink, different handwriting, bogus signature.

    ropelight (e02e5f)

  145. Law, politics, and morality aren’t always the same, ropelight.

    DRJ (15874d)

  146. Evidence is what counts, hard evidence, verifiable evidence.

    His ladies gun and cockblocked minusX Stetson is proof he’s Gormish.

    Admiral Ben burn (b3d5ab)

  147. Plus, Moore knows the truth. I’m talking about him if he did these things, not his accusers.

    DRJ (15874d)

  148. How is it merciful and forgiving to protect our reputations and let others suffer because we want to keep our wrongful acts a secret?

    If repentance and recompense require a public confession and apology, then they require a public confession and an apology. But what if the wronged person agrees to $32 million and a non-disclosure agreement? 😉

    That parable you cited actually says that we have an obligation to forgive those who trespass against us, and it implies that the obligation is unconditional. Our forgiveness should not need to be bought.

    nk (dbc370)

  149. And, yes, if we have repented and been cleansed of our sin by God, it is as if we had done nothing wrong.

    nk (dbc370)

  150. Torquemadaism.

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  151. One must confess before any forgiveness is considered.

    Who appointed you God, Ben?

    One must confess TO God to get forgiveness FROM Him. As for Man, the Lord said “Let him who is without sin cast the first stone.” You seem like a man with a lot of stones to throw, but a “moral” reason is, to you, as good as any other, so long as you get to throw it.

    Redemption is basic to Christianity, and there are countless stories of men who, having come to understand God, change their ways. Now, I am in general no fan of ex-Judge Moore for policy reasons, but I have no doubt that the man today is different than the man of 40 years ago. For one thing, the behavior in question changed (unlike many of the Hollywood liberals in the news of late).

    Kevin M (752a26)

  152. 1 Corinthians 5:6-12

    Your boasting is not good. Don’t you know that a little yeast leavens the whole batch of dough? 7 Get rid of the old yeast, so that you may be a new unleavened batch—as you really are. For Christ, our Passover lamb, has been sacrificed. 8 Therefore let us keep the Festival, not with the old bread leavened with malice and wickedness, but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.

    9 I wrote to you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people— 10 not at all meaning the people of this world who are immoral, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters. In that case you would have to leave this world. 11 But now I am writing to you that you must not associate with anyone who claims to be a brother or sister[c] but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or slanderer, a drunkard or swindler. Do not even eat with such people.

    12 What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? 13 God will judge those outside. “Expel the wicked person from among you.”[d]

    Admiral Ben burn (b3d5ab)

  153. Good points but I think repentance involves changing behavior. That does not require a public remedy but doesn’t it require something?

    DRJ (15874d)

  154. Plus, I don’t think it’s buying forgiveness to apologize for or try to remedy wrongful behavior. I think it’s the outward manifestation of a decision to change one’s behavior.

    DRJ (15874d)

  155. Even Alcoholics Anonymous counsels members to make amends/restitution.

    DIRECT amends to those harmed, unless to do so would constitute further harm, or harm others.

    This means that you apologize directly the the person you harmed, not take out an ad in the paper. But one does not go to an unaware husband and apologize for sleeping with his wife, since that would further the harm and you have no right to implicate others in your sin.

    Kevin M (752a26)

  156. “Go; and sin no more!”

    nk (dbc370)

  157. Imagine Moore in Paul’s congregation..

    “Let’s go have a beer and talk

    Admiral Ben burn (b3d5ab)

  158. Just a reminder of how disgusting these leftwing m00nbats really are… https://mobile.twitter.com/BrendanBordelon/status/934418166620524544

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  159. 12 What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside?
    13 God will judge those outside. “Expel the wicked person from among you.

    A person who comes to find faith was outside the church before. The one who is wicked NOW is the one to be expelled.

    Kevin M (752a26)

  160. The one who is wicked NOW is the one to be expelled.

    Exactly correct.

    Admiral Ben burn (b3d5ab)

  161. I had come to post something about redemption, but saw The Very Catholic Dana’s excellent #27 and follow-up. Not much to add really.

    Kevin M (752a26)

  162. So, Ben, has Moore been dating teens lately? THAT would be news. Does his opponent favor elective abortion? The Catholic Church DOES find that wicked and WILL cast one out for that.

    Kevin M (752a26)

  163. Admiral Richmond Kelly Turner
    Admiral ben burnee bro

    mg (60b0f7)

  164. Jesus was BIG on hypocrisy.

    His one violent act was in part, about hypocrisy in the Temple.

    Admiral Ben burn (b3d5ab)

  165. No one is going to challenge me on my false colors ? Like Haiku, I just decided raise my rank with no foundation whatsoever?

    Admiral Ben burn (b3d5ab)

  166. But there’s nothing Biblical about what’s being done to Roy Moore. It’s write out of a saloon brawl:
    Floozy: This man insulted me!
    Cowboy: I did not!
    Gunman: Are you calling this lady a liar?

    nk (dbc370)


  167. 176.No one is going to challenge me on my false colors ? Like Haiku, I just decided raise my rank with no foundation whatsoever?

    Frankly I would have gone with Commodore. Has more of a ring to it. But I guess you wanted to make-believe you out ranked the Colonel.

    Rev.Hoagie® (6bbda7)

  168. Rear Admiral would not be false colors for Bun burn, I think. What do you think, Hoagie?

    nk (dbc370)


  169. 177.But there’s nothing Biblical about what’s being done to Roy Moore.

    There isn’t? Wouldn’t you consider spreading unsubstantiated stories to harm another as Bearing False Witness? I would and that sounds pretty damn Biblical to me.

    Rev.Hoagie® (6bbda7)


  170. 179.Rear Admiral would not be false colors for Bun burn, I think. What do you think, Hoagie?

    I like where you’re going with this. I give you Rear Admiral Comrade Ben! Burn:

    https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-2XI3vNK_NGY/WhheWj5m-wI/AAAAAAABmzw/8_JNqPX7r_gDRcA4UAtKzNVP6O1A8UCZgCLcBGAs/s1600/unnamed%2B%25282%2529.jpg

    Rev.Hoagie® (6bbda7)

  171. @98 ABB

    Yes, yes rector. Pain don’t hurt, to quote Brother Dalton.

    Pinandpuller (3e38b3)

  172. Next time, remember to mark pictures like that NSFW, Hoagie.

    nk (dbc370)

  173. Speaking of bearing false witness and Dana’s comment 27:

    Forgiveness of sin is a major tenet of Christian morality. Has Mr Moore, assuming that he really committed these sins, asked the Lord for forgiveness? We don’t know, because he has denied the allegations. I could see how a candidate who has asked for such forgiveness might still choose to deny the accusations during a political campaign, because admitting seeking forgiveness is also confirming the allegations. That would be Mr Moore’s personal cross to bear.

    Isn’t that bearing false witness? How is that defensible?

    DRJ (15874d)

  174. @103 ABB of the Hi-C’s

    CO and WA state both have recreational mj and your state law goes into effect en Enero if I am not bad wrong.

    Pinandpuller (3e38b3)

  175. Ninth Commandment “bearing false witness” is perjury.

    nk (dbc370)

  176. lol, rev.

    mg (60b0f7)

  177. Also, “against” another person.

    nk (dbc370)

  178. Denying true claims seems like that to me.

    DRJ (15874d)

  179. Its the harmless lies that are allowed, and this would not be harmless.

    DRJ (15874d)

  180. @109 ABB

    What, were you on a medical marijuana run when Hale-Bopp came thru? You can still catch your connection. Archimedes says you’ve got a big enough stick up your a**.

    Pinandpuller (3e38b3)

  181. Christ had to carry His Cross, but He did not have to put the nails in himself.

    nk (dbc370)

  182. French Admiral Francois Darlan
    could be compared to Admiral ben burnee as he jumped ship to help the nazis.

    mg (60b0f7)

  183. Some things can’t be unseen, Hoagie! Good Gosh Almighty…

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  184. Re: Second paragraph at #152

    Doesn’t Nelson’s fraudulent yearbook and Gloria Allred’s refusal to allow it to be examined by independent experts generate a modicum of hesitation in the minds of Moore’s detractors?

    Or, has the lynch mob gone nose blind?

    ropelight (e02e5f)

  185. Goggles they did nothin nothin.

    narciso (d1f714)

  186. I thought the Ninth Comandment said commandments not enumerated in The Ten Comandments should not be construed to deny or disparage other commandments given The Children of Israel.

    Pinandpuller (3e38b3)

  187. Yes, ropelight. I think Beverly Nelson’s story is questionable. Corfman’s story is more believable.

    DRJ (15874d)

  188. Questionable?

    What question would you ask Nelson if you were Moore’s defense attorney?

    ropelight (e02e5f)

  189. “It’s called scotoma. The mind sees what it chooses to see.” Sir Leigh Teabing

    Pinandpuller (3e38b3)

  190. A guy named Jesus might use drywall screws.

    Pinandpuller (3e38b3)

  191. Yes and that name is a compound of the two hacks who fell for the priory De scion forgery.

    https://mobile.twitter.com/Regressipedia/status/934481244745863168?p=v

    Speaking of firgery

    narciso (d1f714)

  192. As for Corfman, her story is full of holes. She was too young to work at the restaurant, employees there never saw her, the restaurant never closed at 10pm – always after 11 to catch the swing shift workers on the way home, the trash bins were located in back not on the side, there was no highway immediately behind the restaurant, etc.

    ropelight (e02e5f)

  193. What blows my mind is that Chuey is a nickname for Jesus and there’s even a transitional form that escapes me at the moment.

    Pinandpuller (3e38b3)

  194. If I could only ask one question, I would want to kniow the names and ages of all the people Nelson can remember working with at the diner.

    DRJ (15874d)

  195. Correction: Trash bins located on the side of the restaurent – not in back.

    ropelight (e02e5f)

  196. All of these stories could be true, or they could all be false, or some combination.

    DRJ (15874d)

  197. Corfman didnt’t work at the diner. She was the girl at the courthouse.

    DRJ (15874d)

  198. Corfman didnt’t work at the diner. She was the girl at the courthouse.

    DRJ (15874d) — 11/25/2017 @ 11:16 am

    The teen at the courthouse for disclimplinary issues who blamed Roy Moore for her issues.

    The one who said she had a phone in her room that her mother said she didn’t. The one who said Roy Moore picked her up at a location over a mile and across a highway away. That one?

    Still, might have partially been true.

    Do you remember all of your sins from 40 years ago and before you decided to follow Christ and had Him wash away your sins?

    Have you given a press release for all of those sins?

    NJRob (17bf20)

  199. Do you remember all of your sins from 40 years ago and before you decided to follow Christ and had Him wash away your sins?

    Have you given a press release for all of those sins?

    Have you denied them and smeared the victims publicly?

    Patterico (0170be)

  200. Yes, DRJ, I confused Corfman with Nelson. I’m commenting on my phone and watching Florida State vs Florida and Ohio State vs Michigan.

    ropelight (e02e5f)

  201. You can’t fix poor judgment, but it shouldn’t necessarily be a removable offense:

    https://pjmedia.com/instapundit/281691/#respond

    narciso (d1f714)

  202. #217, assumes facts not in evidence.

    ropelight (e02e5f)

  203. exposen joe has got to go

    mg (60b0f7)

  204. I’m watching football, too, ropelight. This is a great time of year for college football fans.

    DRJ (15874d)

  205. @132

    Just as the media do with guns, abortion, homosexuality, Obamacare, and Trump, all of their coverage is geared towards pressuring you to agree with them because if you do not agree with them, that means you are an immoral and indecent person.” [Remind you of anyone we know?]

    Hmm.

    So let me be crystal clear: for the sake of this post, we are going to assume for the sake of argument that all of the most troubling aspects of the accusations are false. We’ll assume for the sake of argument that multiple women got together and contrived a political hit on Moore, fabricating evidence against him in an effort to keep him out of office.

    Isn’t there still room to criticize people who have said: “Even assuming the allegations are true, we should vote for him anyway”? Even if those people are mistaken about the allegations being true, isn’t it troubling to you that someone would say that?

    Dave (445e97)

  206. Have you given a press release for all of those sins?

    I try to apologize for my mistakes and sins, to God and to people in my life. Iv’ve apologized for hurting people here, and that is public.

    DRJ (15874d)

  207. Are you a Florida fan or Florida State, ropelight?

    DRJ (15874d)

  208. 167, that’s like one of those 80s solo pop acts(Sting, Peter Gabriel, Phil Collins, Winwood etc.) getting on with their backup singers.

    urbanleftbehind (7c507c)

  209. I try to apologize for my mistakes and sins, to God and to people in my life. Iv’ve apologized for hurting people here, and that is public.

    DRJ (15874d) — 11/25/2017 @ 11:41 am

    As do all Christians. Do you remember all of your sins from 40 years ago?

    Is it not reasonable to assume that you might not remember some transgression and that if a leftist tried to smear one against you l, you might feel it is just one trying to tar your name instead of being the truth? As Senator Reid said about his lie regarding Romney’s taxes, “He didn’t win, did he.”

    NJRob (17bf20)

  210. Have you denied them and smeared the victims publicly?

    Patterico (0170be) — 11/25/2017 @ 11:23 am

    Are you a Christian?

    NJRob (17bf20)

  211. It’s possible to forget things that happened 40 years ago, but not these things. They are either true or not.

    DRJ (15874d)

  212. I’m talking about the sexual aspects, not where trash cans or phones were. Details matter when we test credibility, but people know details can be forgotten.

    DRJ (15874d)

  213. Is it not reasonable to assume that you might not remember some transgression

    You think Roy Moore may have forgotten that he tried to rape 14-year old children?

    Wow.

    Dave (445e97)

  214. Really DRJ? Why not these things?

    He dated younger ladies in the past. By all we can see he has been married to his wife without scandal for many years. Every accusation, of which only 1 is even a legitimate accusation, is from 40 years ago.

    Where is the track record like we see with these serial harrassers coming out in politics and hollywood?

    Do you believe in being washed in the blood of Christ and having your sins forgiven? Or must you repent over and over again and self-flagellate eternally for your transgressions?

    Is it not possible he did meet with this young lady, but things are not exactly as either remember?

    We know from Jane Roe, that the left will gleefully rake advantage of a troubled person’s weakness to advance their agenda.

    NJRob (17bf20)

  215. You think Roy Moore may have forgotten that he tried to rape 14-year old children?

    Wow.

    Dave (445e97) — 11/25/2017 @ 11:57 am

    Libel.

    No accusation of rape is made that is remotely credible.

    NJRob (17bf20)

  216. I’m talking about the sexual aspects, not where trash cans or phones were. Details matter when we test credibility, but people know details can be forgotten.

    DRJ (15874d) — 11/25/2017 @ 11:54 am

    And I am disputing them. 40 years can make a memory hazy especially when it comes to trauma. Remember all the false child abuse allegations in the 80’s.

    Have you ever heard of a child abuser that stopped and was found 40 years later?

    NJRob (17bf20)

  217. Reid was immoral and wrong to act as he did, even though he got away with it. You can use it to justify acting the same way if you want, but Democrats aren’t winning many races now. That conduct turned voters off. Do you really want to see if it works that way for Republicans?

    DRJ (15874d)

  218. A restaurant wouldn’t use illegal labor surely.

    Pinandpuller (d86053)

  219. The stories are consistent that he was attracted to younger women, and he married one who he first noticed when she was in high school. The problem with Corfman is she was even younger than his usual interests, so sex-based activity with her might have risen to statutory rape. No, I dont think he could forget that unless he targeted so many high schoolers that he can’t remember them all.

    DRJ (15874d)

  220. Reid was immoral and wrong to act as he did, even though he got away with it. You can use it to justify acting the same way if you want, but Democrats aren’t winning many races now. That conduct turned voters off. Do you really want to see if it works that way for Republicans?

    DRJ (15874d) — 11/25/2017 @ 12:04 pm

    He gleefully and maliciously lied to advance the agenda of destroying this nation and all you hold dear. We are at war whether you accept it.

    Were we wrong to align with Russia in WWII?

    NJRob (17bf20)

  221. The stories are consistent that he was attracted to younger women, and he married one who he first noticed when she was in high school. The problem with Corfman is she was even younger than his usual interests, so sex-based activity with her might have risen to statutory rape. No, I dont think he could forget that unless he targeted so many high schoolers that he can’t remember them all.

    DRJ (15874d) — 11/25/2017 @ 12:08 pm

    And most of the stories are consistent that he acted gentlemanly and politely to these young women with 2 exceptions: the 14 year old initial accusation and the yearbook claim that is looking more dubious by the day.

    That does not strengthen your claim other than to say you are uncomfortable that he pursued women younger than you’d prefer in a modern context.

    NJRob (17bf20)

  222. Were we wrong to align with Russia in WWII?

    What a moronic analogy. We didn’t adopt Bolshevism to defeat Hitler, did we?

    If we had, don’t you agree it would have been a horrible mistake?

    Dave (445e97)

  223. @126 Tweeting Dana

    I follow you and I’m about two thirds bad.

    Pinandpuller (d86053)

  224. #225, DRJ, I’m a long time Gators fan (I have blue and orange lights in the back and keep them on during night games).

    However, I recently spent an hour or so with Jimbo Fisher (mostly we talked baseball – lead off hitters, and airplanes – turbo prop jets with good glide characteristics). He’s a belt and suspenders man.

    I like the guy and now am taking increasing interest in Seminole football, but my lights are still blue and orange.

    ropelight (e02e5f)

  225. The preschool abuse cases were almost all the product of discredited interview practices where children’s memories were altered/prompted by suggestions. That isn’t the case here, except to the extent the Moores and others feel the Washington Post reporters and Gloria Allred were the suggesters. That could be true, which is why corroboration is important.

    There is some corroboration for some witnesses, but no one has been tested under oath or in court so IMO this is a personal political judgment call.

    DRJ (15874d)

  226. Read Mr Dana’s blog too. Don’t be a d*****.

    Pinandpuller (d86053)

  227. What a moronic analogy. We didn’t adopt Bolshevism to defeat Hitler, did we?

    If we had, don’t you agree it would have been a horrible mistake?

    Dave (445e97) — 11/25/2017 @ 12:13 pm

    Says the severely conservative leftist that is pushing as true a rape claim from someone that is using false evidence to back her claim. The yearbook is a fraud, no different than Dan Rather’s papers on George W. Bush’s service record.

    You’re doing your best to push the Bolshevik revolution in this nation by smearing Christian conservatives with lies and putting a Nancy Pelosi leftist in Alabama of all places.

    NJRob (17bf20)

  228. Plus the underage girl who claims he gave her wine, and these girls including his wife. He likes them young, I get it. Many young girls like older men, too. But a 30 year old consistently dating 14-17 year old girls is strange.

    DRJ (15874d)

  229. There is some corroboration for some witnesses, but no one has been tested under oath or in court so IMO this is a personal political judgment call.

    DRJ (15874d) — 11/25/2017 @ 12:21 pm

    Agreed.

    And that is what it comes down to. We believe what we do based on our gut and how we interpret the publicly available evidence.

    Thankfully neither of us ha e to vote in this election and it’s up to the people of Alabama to make this decision.

    Still waiting for the rest of the serial offenders in Congress to be revealed.

    NJRob (17bf20)

  230. The most important event in college football today is ……

    UCLA HIRED CHIP KELLY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    Back to your regular programming.

    shipwreckedcrew (56b591)

  231. Plus the underage girl who claims he gave her wine, and these girls including his wife. He likes them young, I get it. Many young girls like older men, too. But a 30 year old consistently dating 14-17 year old girls is strange.

    DRJ (15874d) — 11/25/2017 @ 12:26 pm

    17-19. Still young, but above the age of consent.

    NJRob (17bf20)

  232. Yes, that’s why I said strange, not illegal.

    DRJ (15874d)

  233. 239 – well its not.

    shipwreckedcrew (56b591)

  234. You’re doing your best to push the Bolshevik revolution in this nation by smearing Christian conservatives with lies and putting a Nancy Pelosi leftist in Alabama of all places.

    Your cult leader is the one who wrote checks to Pelosi, Reid, Schumer, Kerry, Carter, Rangel, Weiner and Clinton, not me.

    Dave (445e97)

  235. Still waiting for the rest of the serial offenders in Congress to be revealed.

    NJRob (17bf20) — 11/25/2017 @ 12:27 pm

    YES!!! The American people have a right to know.

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  236. Dave’s another one who puts the “con” in conservative.

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  237. #244, DRJ, the National Review article you link relies on the WaPo for much of its content – Corfman and her mother in the courthouse when they met Moore.

    Yet, there is no mention of why mother and daughter were there, wonder why? Mother was asking the court to transfer custody of misbehaving daughter to her father. To which the court agreed and set a date for the exchange to take place within a few weeks.

    Daughter resided with her father, at some distance from Mom and Moore, for the next year. Both of which would have made on-going contact somewhat problematic.

    ropelight (e02e5f)

  238. I linked that to list the accusers, ropelight, because NJRob and I were discussing them. It is supposed to be a repeat of initial reports gathered in one place, not the final word.

    DRJ (15874d)

  239. Corroboration is some evidence, not the final decision.

    DRJ (15874d)

  240. There are at least two sides to every accuser’s story. I don’t know who is telling the truth or if none of them are, and thankfully it doesn’t matter because I’m not voting. I’m tired of these choices.

    DRJ (15874d)

  241. Florida State and Ohio State both won. Not my conferences but I was cheering for their opponents. It’s been that kind of weekend but I still love it.

    DRJ (15874d)

  242. Dave’s another one who puts the “con” in conservative.

    I’m tempted to say your another one who puts the “homo” in ad hominem.

    But I won’t.

    Dave (445e97)

  243. *you’re

    Dave (445e97)

  244. if what was falsely brought up against Moore were true but many believe it is very false. I don’t see any proof that Moore is guilty of anything “charge” brought against him. Nothing to do with amount of time the accused waited to bring the charges or the character of the the accusers. I have family who have suffered sexual harassment and assault and seen how people react to it and deny or defend themselves. As well as dealing & supporting those who are effected by said crimes. In fact one family member most affected by these kind of crimes was the one who first didn’t believe the Moore accusers in my immediate family, including those users who were filmed & interviewed. She at first waited to listened to all sides and after a week or two has told me she believes Moore and not the accusers. Patterico makes big assumptions that what Moore is accused of is true (which is fine by me, thats what make America so great, freedom of opinion) and those of us who believe Moore, do so just because he is a “Republican” or for Trump or for whatever. Again, not true or accurate. I am not a party person and haven’t been one for over over 20 years. It may be America, and Patterico is entitled to his or her opinion, but that is all it is. You cannot read people minds to tell why they have decided to support Moore. Some may have and others have not supported Moore for the reasons you give. I believe Moore is 100% innocent because the accusers have not convinced me he is “guilty” of anything. In particular the woman and her lawyer with the yearbook are completely criminal with their false accusations & presentation of the “facts”. Also the Washington Post (who first broke this “story”) has staff that is in collusion with the DNC and Soros to promote DNC goals and policies (which was also reported this week), which makes the WP no better than a DNC SuperPAC. Not too mention that is also the case with the WP owner. Is their bias in some Moore supporters in their support for him? Sure is. Is there bias with the accusers and those who support them and are against Moore? Yes, again, there sure is. But on either side, some people are not biased and are trying to be fully objective with the facts and not paint a broad brush on those who disagree with them.

    Hope everyone’s Thanksgiving weekend is going well.

    Where Eagles Dare (8f562c)

  245. “You see that with this post from Jonah Goldberg at National Review. Ostensibly it is a post about sexual misconduct. In reality, it is a game of moral equivalence so he can denounce Roy Moore, a proxy for Trump.

    Whenever popular passion swamps politics, true-believing zealots and opportunistic demagogues will exploit that passion. The zealots will overreach. The demagogues will demagogue — using a good cause to destroy political enemies and defend unworthy allies. Republican Senate candidate Roy Moore is credibly accused by nine women of preying on teenagers, one as young as 14. Harvey Weinstein is credibly accused by at least 50 women of a long list of offenses, including rape. Democratic senator Al Franken has been accused by two women of inappropriate advances or groping.

    Notice the slight of hand. Calling the Moore accusers credible is what people in the business call a lie. The best you can say about some of them is they are not obviously insane. The worst you can say about Moore, is he wanted a young wife forty years ago when he was still a relatively young man. Franken and Weinstein, in contrast, are admitted degenerates. There is a mountain of corroborating evidence to support the claims against them. Goldberg knows this, but he lies anyway, because that serves the cause.

    That’s the thing to keep in mind with the neocons. Neoconservatism was never a right-wing phenomenon. It was a Progressive heresy, and only a very narrow one. Their dispute with the Progressives was never over ideology. It was over tactics. The neocons wanted to aggressively wage jihad against the Soviets. After the Cold War, they wanted to use the American Empire to make the world safe for global Jewry. Otherwise, they were perfectly fine with the Progressive social project, as long is it did not harm the war effort.”

    http://thezman.com/wordpress/?p=12136

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  246. The worst you can say about Moore, is he wanted a young wife forty years ago when he was still a relatively young man.

    No, the worst you can say about Moore is that he tried to put a 14-year old girl’s hand on his dick while feeling up her crotch, and tried to forcibly sodomize a 15-year old behind a dumpster.

    Dave (445e97)

  247. old joe goes to show the republican party is a bunch of ho’s

    mg (60b0f7)

  248. Well, Dave, if you’re into that sort of thing, I suppose having a go behind a dumpster doesn’t seem all that inappropriate

    ropelight (e02e5f)

  249. @264 You can wriggle all you want, Haiku, you’re still on the hook for Bush and his neocon cabal. Everyone knew what he was by 2004, and conservatives voted for him 84-16.

    https://ropercenter.cornell.edu/polls/us-elections/how-groups-voted/how-groups-voted-2004/

    Davethulhu (6a4a84)

  250. Well, Dave, if you’re into that sort of thing, I suppose having a go behind a dumpster doesn’t seem all that inappropriate

    You’re the one defending it.

    Dave (445e97)

  251. DRJ, now that the Sunshine State rivalry has been settled, I’m moving on to my true love: Alabama! Roll Tide!

    Auburn, a worthy opponent, in the Iron Bowl for a birth in the SEC Championship game. If you like the college game – it just doesn’t get any better.

    ropelight (e02e5f)

  252. I’m not defending it, I’m suggesting you seem to more about it than I do. I’m just not into dumpsters is all.

    I like my dirty weekends with frisky chicks in luxury hotels or priate beach houses with lots of cold Champagne and fresh seafood. Superior personal hygiene is always a big plus.

    Now, I’m not putting you down or passing judgment. If rutting in the dark behind dumpsters is what it takes to make your monkey dance then I’ll go to my church and you can go to yours.

    ropelight (e02e5f)


  253. …. then I’ll go to my church and you can go to yours.

    I don’t think he goes to church ropelight, if he did he wouldn’t be so keen on bearing false witness against someone when he couldn’t possibly know the truth. I always love it when heathens who believe in murdering babies in the womb and who can’t seem to determine which rest room or locker room a guy should use suddenly become paragons of virtue and preachers of morality.

    Rev.Hoagie® (6bbda7)

  254. Dave: (in condemning tone) More tried to sodomize a 15 year old behind a dumpster
    ropelight: oh you’re into that?

    How do you get from A to B, ropelight?

    Davethulhu (6a4a84)

  255. Same way you got into this, Cthulhu… http://americandigest.org/wp/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/DOsH2wPWAAAsqHS.jpg

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  256. yes yes there is different churches

    happyfeet (cf61b1)

  257. Is it not reasonable to assume that you might not remember some transgression

    You don’t try to make a 14-year-old touch your junk and forget it.

    Most of us have never done that and can say 100% for sure that it never happened.

    Patterico (0170be)

  258. You voted for Hillary, the rapist protector, right?

    It takes a hyper-partisan to conclude that Bill was a rapist but Roy Moore was not a child molester. You realize leftists played the “smear the victim” game with Juanita that many on the right are playing with Moore’s victims, don’t you? It’s not admirable on either side of the aisle.

    Patterico (0170be)

  259. Typical Haiku, can’t respond, so jump to the personal attacks.

    Davethulhu (6a4a84)

  260. “I suppose having a go behind a dumpster doesn’t seem all that inappropriate.”

    – ropelight

    Really? “Having a go” with a 15-year-old behind a dumpster doesn’t seem “all that inappropriate” to you?

    That’s a new low, even for ropelight.

    Leviticus (3c8b11)

  261. Patterico articles often infuriate me but this one I agree with whole-heartedly. PRINCIPLES should be inviolate – or they are not principles. You either have a principle and always apply it or you don’t have it to begin with. We are not liberals – our “principles” are not, nor should be, fluid to meet the occasion or our benefit. A reminder: it is also the way we Conservatives view the Constitution: we conserve not pretend it ‘grows’ as a living document.

    I believe the voters will decide Alabama. There really isn’t another option. If conservative voters there refuse to betray their conservative principles. so be it. I would honor them more for that than tossing forever what they purport believe for the short term consequence of another GOP in the Senate.

    C (3fe8af)

  262. #273, Hoagie pretty much covered it at #272, but I’ll add that Dave’s misplaced certainly about an incident of which he can have no direct knowledge, is indicative of an unexamined emotional comnection. In this case, an unnatural obsession with deviant practices. Psych 101.

    ropelight (e02e5f)

  263. Hoagie would wait til those babies can serve as cannon fodder in the next conservative adventure.

    Admiral Ben burn (b3d5ab)

  264. Then y’all can honor their sacrifice with a monument to that generation and sing songs by the campfire.

    Admiral Ben burn (b3d5ab)

  265. Like Vietnam?

    ropelight (e02e5f)

  266. Exactly gropelight.

    Admiral Ben burn (b3d5ab)

  267. a lot of people are getting way out ahead of the known facts

    happyfeet (cf61b1)

  268. If there are any babies left after Dems rip them from the womb them then sell off the parts for Lamborghinis.

    ropelight (e02e5f)

  269. Hey Hoagie! At least all those babies you rescue into abusive homes can enjoy life for 18 or 20 years.

    Admiral Ben burn (b3d5ab)

  270. Of course y’all may be victims of their criminality so it evens out.

    Admiral Ben burn (b3d5ab)

  271. #291, not to mention limited government, reductions in taxation and regulation, the rule of law, states’ rights, and fair trade.

    ropelight (e02e5f)

  272. 291 that 2nd graf made my sides split.

    Where are the Goldwater Republicans?

    Admiral Ben burn (b3d5ab)

  273. You swallow the camel of crime but strain out the gnat of abortion.

    Admiral Ben burn (b3d5ab)

  274. The Son of Man is to go, just as it is written of Him; but woe to that man by whom the Son of Man is betrayed! It would have been good for that man if he had not been born.”

    Admiral Ben burn (b3d5ab)

  275. It takes a hyper-partisan to conclude that Bill was a rapist but Roy Moore was not a child molester. You realize leftists played the “smear the victim” game with Juanita that many on the right are playing with Moore’s victims, don’t you? It’s not admirable on either side of the aisle.

    Patterico (0170be) — 11/25/2017 @ 2:12 pm

    You’re saying the evidence is equal? You’re really claiming that?

    NJRob (b00189)

  276. Alabama play caller just made a rookie blunder – tried a fake field goal on the 26 uard line and failed miserably. It very well might cost them the game, the SEC Championship, and the National Championship

    ropelight (e02e5f)

  277. Fortunately, I have lots of Boudain and cold beer on hand.

    ropelight (e02e5f)

  278. Solomon was very wise

    A good name is better than fine perfume, and the day of death better than the day of birth.

    Ecclesiastes 7:1

    Admiral Ben burn (b3d5ab)

  279. That wasn’t a fake field goal, it was a muffled snap set. Rookie.

    CFarleigh (6e1f8d)

  280. But later the lure of plural marriage drove the poor bastard mad.

    Admiral Ben burn (b3d5ab)

  281. Upset weekend, ropelight.

    DRJ (15874d)

  282. And some people still watch football President Schlump.

    Admiral Ben burn (b3d5ab)

  283. So many recent mass murder of innocents like church goers. I don’t think this is the Rapture they expected.
    https://www.buzzfeed.com/mikehayes/a-church-youth-pastor-has-been-charged-with-murdering-three?utm_term=.veyRRM3bq#.ljx33BpDj

    Admiral Ben burn (b3d5ab)

  284. Sounds like attempted rape to me.

    Not so clear to me since it seems Moore didn’t use as much force as he could have.

    James B. Shearer (951d11)

  285. @291

    Everything liberals and liberalism stands for masks its real objective of seeking and maintaining political power.

    *declares that voting for a child molester is better than voting for a Democrat*

    🤔

    Davethulhu (6a4a84)

  286. Re national review, I recall after that debate with bill Buckley, vital having lost the argument accused him of spreading Nazi graffiti around his home in Sharon con.

    narciso (d1f714)

  287. “At least all those babies you rescue into abusive homes can enjoy life for 18 or 20 years.

    Of course y’all may be victims of their criminality so it evens out.”

    Kill them so they don’t grow up to be criminals….are you wearing a hood?

    Kind of cool tho how you equate abortion with abuse.

    harkin (a9a478)

  288. Harkin

    If you’ve truly thought it out rationally there is hope.

    Yes I understand your black/white moral dilemma. Try a grey card next time you meter your light exposure.

    Admiral Ben burn (b3d5ab)

  289. This was Margaret dangers modest proposal, how has it worked out.

    narciso (d1f714)

  290. During the early medieval period, Confession was not private, but had to be made to the entire congregation.

    Nevertheless, that to which nk refers might better be described as PG-13 at most.
    The historian Dana (ecab7a) — 11/25/2017 @ 7:39 am

    Animals, including insects, faced the possibility of criminal charges for several centuries across many parts of Europe. The earliest extant record of an animal trial is the execution of a pig in 1266 at Fontenay-aux-Roses. Such trials remained part of several legal systems until the 18th century. Animal defendants appeared before both church and secular courts, and the offences alleged against them ranged from murder to criminal damage. Human witnesses were often heard and in Ecclesiastical courts they were routinely provided with lawyers (this was not the case in secular courts, but for most of the period concerned, neither were human defendants). If convicted, it was usual for an animal to be executed, or exiled. However, in 1750, a female donkey was acquitted of charges of bestiality due to witnesses to the animal’s virtue and good behaviour while her human co-accused were sentenced to death.

    Translations of several of the most detailed records can be found in E.P. Evans’ The Criminal Prosecution and Capital Punishment of Animals, published in 1906. Sadakat Kadri’s The Trial: Four Thousand Years of Courtroom Drama (Random House, 2006) contains another detailed examination of the subject. Kadri shows that the trials were part of a broader phenomenon that saw corpses and inanimate objects also face prosecution; and argues that an echo of such rituals survives in modern attitudes towards the punishment of children and the mentally ill.

    Source

    Pinandpuller (0c4c30)

  291. “It takes a hyper-partisan to conclude that Bill was a rapist but Roy Moore was not a child molester. You realize leftists played the “smear the victim” game with Juanita that many on the right are playing with Moore’s victims, don’t you? It’s not admirable on either side of the aisle.” posted by Patterico

    True but not even close to what most folks feel who support Moore. No “smearing” necessary. The facts show who is actually a predator and who is being falsely accused. Clinton was proven in a court of law to be a liar about his predatory sexual activity. The Supreme Court’s ruling in Clinton v. Jones led to the District Court’s hearing of Jones v. Clinton, which led to the Lewinsky scandal, when Clinton was asked under oath about other workplace relationships, which led to charges of perjury and obstruction of justice and the impeachment of Bill Clinton.

    Clinton had a known history of infidelity and sexual harassment that went back decades and was continued while in elected office. He was impeached over his lifestyle & criminal actions as POTUS. Worse should have been done to Clinton if the US Senate wasn’t run by such a bunch of cowards. Even Gloria Steinem admitted in her 1998 op-ed at the time, Clinton was a bad man but also said, “so what.” People in power new Bill was bad but they simply didn’t care.

    If all the various allegations were true, wrote Steinem, Bill Clinton was “a candidate for sex addiction therapy.” And later she wrote the most shocking of all statements, “Even if the allegations are true, the President is not guilty of sexual harassment. He is accused of having made a gross, dumb, and reckless pass at a supporter during a low point in her life. She pushed him away, she said, and it never happened again. In other words, President Clinton took ‘no’ for an answer.”

    If i believed 1/1000 of a percent of what the Washington Post printed about Moore he would be done for me and my family & friends. We do not tolerate sexual crimes for any cause, for any political party or for any reason. period. Many supporters of Moore are of the same disposition.

    The only reason the radical left-leaning entrenched media and political establishment his NOW publicly admitting to Bill’s predatory past is because they are willing to throw Bill overboard to get at Trump and anyone else they feel supports (even partially supports) Trump’s agenda. But EVERYONE in Washington and the DNC has known the truth about Bill since he became POTUS.

    the really sad thing about all of this is that the Bush clan has considered Bill a family member. Barbara Bush considers him family. She even revealed that all her sons call him “My brother by another mother.”

    And people wonder why voters are so fed up with both establishment parties’ leaders.

    On the side of the accusers all I see is a lawyer who does not want to allow supposed evidence to be analyzed by neutral third parties. This evidence is clearly a forgery. I also see and read other family members of other accusers who say the accusers are lying or not correct in what they are accusing Moore of. I read about witnessed to life in the late 1970s in Moore’s Alabama community who says that Moore was never banned from a mall for being a creep or some kind of sexual predator.

    Also the news organization who brought the story to the public has been found out this week to have reporters who collude with the DNC & Soros to push their agenda. So the paper doing the investigation is more a biased DNC Super PAC then a unbiased objective “free press”. I see and read the accusations against Moore as a smear campaign against someone who could vote in agreement with many of Trump’s policies and this frightens both the establishments of the left and the right.

    I especially see a left wing & right wing of American politics who are frightened to their core that a potential US Senator would fight against gay marriage, even if it meant he would have to go to jail. I further see a left wing & right wing of American politics who are frightened to their core that a potential US Senator would fight for the public placement of the 10 Commandments, even if it meant he would have to go to jail.

    I see corrupt establishment politicians who gave Bill Clinton a whole lot of rope to hang himself, several years to defend himself, immediately condemn Roy Moore before he even has a chance to defend himself. By Romney & McCain no less: 2 politicians who have disappointed voters more than any I can think since Bush 41; who have flipped & flopped & lied on more important issues than John Kerry and both Bill & Hillary Clintons combined. These same Republican establishment politicians have told Moore that the accusations are enough to warrant Moore drop out of the race. Yet these same establishment politicians NEVER said for Clinton to ever to do the same thing until it reached impeachment and even then many did not do or say a thing.

    Again, not even close. no “smearing” necessary of anyone who has accused Moore, to defend Moore.

    Where Eagles Dare (8f562c)

  292. Repeat that in your head a few times.
    Admiral Ben burn (b3d5ab) — 11/25/2017 @ 7:41 am

    You must have more tattoos than Leonard Shelby.

    Leonard Shelby: I have to believe in a world outside my own mind. I have to believe that my actions still have meaning, even if I can’t remember them. I have to believe that when my eyes are closed, the world’s still there. Do I believe the world’s still there? Is it still out there?… Yeah. We all need mirrors to remind ourselves who we are. I’m no different.

    Pinandpuller (0c4c30)

  293. It seems scripture was mot always adhered to:

    https://www.catholic.com/magazine/online-edition/is-confession-in-scripture

    The broderick case seems quite distinct from this flurry of accusations
    ,

    narciso (d1f714)

  294. Father Majewski came in around 4:30 — apparently he was scheduled to celebrate the Mass that afternoon — took one look at the long line remaining, quickly set up another confessional in the small side chapel, and let me tell you, he was racing through things to get Confession done.
    The devoutly Catholic Dana (ecab7a) — 11/25/2017 @ 8:21 am

    Almost positive Protestants invented self-check kiosks at grocery stores.

    Pinandpuller (0c4c30)

  295. There appears to be a paradox, there is to be evidence of the spirit working within, although works do not save in ans of themselves and the message must be spread but it myst be dine with humility.

    narciso (d1f714)

  296. You don’t like being reminded of your inconsistency but that’s too bad.
    Admiral Ben burn (b3d5ab) — 11/25/2017 @ 8:45 am

    Better a foolish consistency.

    Pinandpuller (0c4c30)

  297. Even Alcoholics Anonymous counsels members to make amends/restitution.
    Admiral Ben burn (b3d5ab) — 11/25/2017 @ 9:24 am

    Wow. If those low-lifes can do it-anybody can!

    When 12 Step Programs don’t Work: AA Founder Bill W on How LSD Can Help

    Pinandpuller (0c4c30)

  298. You could use about 500 mics.

    Admiral Ben burn (b3d5ab)

  299. We may have this rape culture all wrong:

    Rapé and Sacred Tobacco

    Nicotine may be a widely abused substance in our modern world, but to many indigenous cultures of the Americas, tobacco is a sacred plant known to cleanse both individuals and ceremonial spaces. That’s the case for rapé (pronounced “ha-peh”), a powerful, cleansing snuff used by shamans in Brazil and Peru as part of important medicinal rituals.

    Rapé is gaining more popularity outside of the Amazon for its medicinal properties, and for people interested to try it, it’s important to find a reputable source for the sacred tobacco. While you can administer rapé yourself or with a trusted friend, it’s also important to educate yourself on its proper usage.

    Source

    Pinandpuller (0c4c30)

  300. Kevin Sorbo in

    (It’s an honor just to be nominated) The 12 Biggest Lies

    Pinandpuller (0c4c30)

  301. David Morrell the fellow behind Rambo, has a series featuring De qyicey as some sort of detective, in the time of prime minister palmerston, the latter was known for consumption of opium.

    narciso (d1f714)

  302. Imagine Moore in Paul’s congregation..

    “Let’s go have a beer and talk
    Admiral Ben burn (b3d5ab) — 11/25/2017 @ 9:57 am

    Imagine militant married lesbian pastors.

    Pinandpuller (0c4c30)

  303. Frankly I would have gone with Commodore. Has more of a ring to it.
    Rev.Hoagie® (6bbda7) — 11/25/2017 @ 10:14 am

    Commodore 64 had more RAM to it.

    Pinandpuller (0c4c30)

  304. Correction: Trash bins located on the side of the restaurent – not in back.
    ropelight (e02e5f) — 11/25/2017 @ 11:13 am

    Back, and to the left. Back, and to the left.

    Plus there’s the whole park bench in front of the court house thing.

    Pinandpuller (0c4c30)

  305. “It takes two to lie. One to lie and one to listen.” Homer Simpson

    Pinandpuller (0c4c30)

  306. Are you a Christian?
    NJRob (17bf20) — 11/25/2017 @ 11:50 am

    Man, I am tonight.

    Pinandpuller (0c4c30)

  307. If you can’t define when life begins how can you define when rape begins?

    Pinandpuller (0c4c30)

  308. You swallow the camel of crime but strain out the gnat of abortion.
    Admiral Ben burn (b3d5ab) — 11/25/2017 @ 2:59 pm

    Don’t be silly. Gnats bother ->you way more than abortions. And mosquitoes have actually killed more people than dirty commies.

    Pinandpuller (0c4c30)

  309. Where Eagles Dare (8f562c) — 11/25/2017 @ 4:51 pm

    You don’t seem to realize that there’s not really any more credible evidence in the Broadrick case against WJC than ant of the allegations against RMoore: the victim’s account. And the claims of forgery etc on the part of Moore’s accusers are supported by echo chamber whisperings, not actual facts.

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0) — 11/25/2017 @ 12:57 pm

    You apparently don’t care that you cut and pasted an anti-Semitic screed for us to read. But I do.

    kishnevi (c62fd3)

  310. Really didn’t Broderick have contemporaneous persons she confided in, but as atty gen and future gov, Clinton was capo do tutti, why I call him the razorback borgi

    narciso (d1f714)

  311. Penn and Teller posted:

    “It takes two to lie. One to lie and one to listen.” Homer Simpson

    Sadly, no: far too many people are quite adept at lying to themselves.

    The psychologist Dana (ecab7a)

  312. Yes that last part could have been left out of the passage, the neocons overreach was assuming one could apply the lessons from the east bloc to the middle, the problem is the solution to baathism for instance ended up a larger problem as the former had destroyed civil society.

    narciso (d1f714)

  313. That was the joke in Colin Powell’s cracker barrel formulation. Oddly the lesson was not learned in Libya and the transitional council tried to purge much of the pre revolutionary officer corps.

    narciso (d1f714)

  314. Yes what matters character references

    http://donsurber.blogspot.com/2017/11/roy-moore-and-brothel.html?m=1

    narciso (d1f714)

  315. Way to go Stanford.
    I’m pulling for the Badgers against the o.s.u.

    mg (60b0f7)

  316. You could use about 500 mics.
    Admiral Ben burn (b3d5ab) — 11/25/2017 @ 5:17 pm

    When you have described the sound of 500 mics dropping, then you will have reached enlightenment.

    Pinandpuller (0c4c30)

  317. kishnevi

    Not sure what your post 335 is all about. I agree with you that what Colonel Haiku posted at 264 @ 12:57 pm is anti-semitic and I dont care for it either.

    as to your further following comments towards my post 316 :

    “You don’t seem to realize that there’s not really any more credible evidence in the Broadrick case against WJC than ant of the allegations against RMoore: the victim’s account. And the claims of forgery etc on the part of Moore’s accusers are supported by echo chamber whisperings, not actual facts.”

    Your comment about what I posted is offensive. You wish to falsely accuse someone (me) of your own tactic. “Echo chamber whisperings” is exactly what you did to me. You are repeating a false accusation others have said, about people who defend Moore without proving any evidence to support that false accusation.

    I didn’t mention the Broadrick case anywhere in my post. what makes you think thats what I was talking about? Please don’t make up something that was not discussed by me. I talked facts. The case of Clinton and what he was found guilty of is a matter of legal and government record, which goes back decades. We are now in the year 2017. Clintons criminal court record & impeachment proceedings goes back until 1997/98, the roots of those proceedings go back even farther, in 1991. All testified by the accuser under oath. They go back decades and NOW people (especially the left) are saying Clinton was wrong. These people are years too late and they knew about the wrong Clinton did years ago, as I also showed by quoting one of the biggest liberal supporters of the DNC & the Clintons: Gloria Steinem. Not even close to the current smear campaign & false accusations going on against Moore. Not even close.

    Bill Clinton repeatedly denied what was going on until two things took place: He was forced under oath when Paula Jones launched her sexual harassment suit, and the physical evidence of the semen stained blue dress was produced. Confronted with these two things Bill Clinton came at least partially clean. He admitted his guilt. Moore vehemently denies it and no one has proof he is lying or has stepped up to take him to court and swear what they say or know is true. Has the USA all of a sudden become run by a Star Chamber in regards to Moore?

    The claims are 100% false in the case of the yearbook “evidence.” I know how to authenticate artwork and signatures. Their are at least 3 different scripts on the yearbook. And 2 different inks. Signing the 1977 date twice. 2 different forms of 1977. The name of the restaurant is another style different then the 2 other 1977 dates. And Allred would not allow the book to be analyzed by a neutral 3rd party. Even Wolf Blitzer accused Allred of hurting her case. So CNN and my points are “not actual facts”? Not sure why all the contempt for Moore or those who defend him and can explain their reasoning. I have eyes to see and a brain to analyze & deduce.

    So what are the major differences between the accusations against Judge Roy Moore and the accusations against Democrats Bill Clinton, Al Franken, Charlie Rose, Harvey Weinstein, and Conyers?

    All of the cases above we have one or more of the following:

    1) An admission of guilt
    2) Settlements paid
    3) Investigations by a competent body
    4) Physical evidence of wrongdoing
    5) Accusations made under oath.

    What do we have in the Roy Moore case? NONE of these things: No admission of guilt, no settlements paid to accusers, no investigations made by a competent body. The entire body of physical evidence is an old yearbook signature that the lawyer of the claimant not only refuses to release for examination but admits she has not even asked her client if she saw Mr. Moore sign said book. The other accusers have family members accusing them of being mistaken or simply lying.

    Now as you know by my post 316, if Roy Moore is lying I think he should be burned at the stake, even if it means the temporary loss of a senate seat in Alabama (after all the if the incompetent lying GOP won’t pass the bills they promised with 52 votes being down to 51 won’t make ANY difference). On this point I differ with some on the right. Also as I mentioned on my posts yesterday and today, I am not into the whole left vs right dialectic. I don’t chose either, especially if anyone on EITHER side has committed a sexual crime, ESPECIALLY against a child. As most of my posts stress.

    Furthermore it is not out of the realm of possibility that one of those five conditions might be met concerning Roy Moore before election day. And if it occurs I will be the first to state he needs to get lost.

    But until I see that happen I will not only continue to defend Moore & his campaign for US Senator but will call out the dishonorable left/right/centrist establishment medias for lumping Roy Moore with the increasing numbers of proven and or ADMITTED sexual predators, rapists or pedophiles in Hollywood, the news media and federal government.

    Unless you have something that is backed up by facts about what I am saying, or you are some kind of a telepath, please don’t imply or make up what I posted.

    Thanks very much.

    Where Eagles Dare (8f562c)

  318. Normal Rogers, broderick friend was witness to her i juries as was her future husband. Not event that were recounted 30 years later. That particular publication sometimes overreach best where they should.

    narciso (d1f714)

  319. (Concerning Juanita Broaddrick vs Clinton and five women vs Moore)

    You’re saying the evidence is equal? You’re really claiming that?

    I think there’s a definite chance Broaddrick is telling the truth. But she is one woman, and she didn’t keep her story straight (she recanted, then un-recanted). If I had to wager, I’d say about 50-50.

    So, no. The evidence is not “equal”. The evidence against Moore is much stronger.

    For that matter, the evidence against Trump is also much stronger.

    Dave (445e97)

  320. 1) An admission of guilt

    Strange that you leave Donald Trump off your list, seeing as we have recordings in which he brags openly about:

    1) Committing forcible sexual assault on multiple women
    2) Violating young girls by peeping at them in the dressing rooms of his beauty pageants

    Dave (445e97)

  321. Juche dave doesn’t dissapoint, maybe he is frum.Who ignores cnns record of supporting dictators like the soviets the Castro’s the sandinistas. The north koreans btw trained a unit of Zimbabwe’s military the 5th division that committed atrocities in their version of the Ukraine matabeleland.

    narciso (d1f714)

  322. Why is that significant,because the then zanu youth leader tsvangerai would stark his campaign of opposition against mugabr regime in that period.

    narciso (d1f714)

  323. Malia O don’t you know girl?

    Once you go white you’ll never be right

    Guess who’s coming to dinner?

    Go ahead, guess

    Knock knock

    Who’s there?

    Not Colin Kapernick

    Who?

    Pinandpuller (0c4c30)

  324. Accusations are like opinions: everyone’s got one.

    Like that Larry Sinclair guy

    NTTAWWT

    Pinandpuller (0c4c30)

  325. Dave

    was your post 347 in reference to my 344 post?

    If it is, in reference to your following post 346:

    “evidence against Moore is much stronger.”

    There is no “evidence.”

    “the evidence against Trump is also much stronger.”

    There is no “evidence” against Trump either.

    In either case above we do not have one or more of the following:

    1) An admission of guilt
    2) Settlements paid
    3) Investigations by a competent body
    4) Physical evidence of wrongdoing
    5) Accusations made under oath.

    so not sure where there is evidence of any sexual crime of any kind by either of them.

    Seems to me your accusations & claims of “sex crimes” etc on the part of Trump are supported by echo chamber whisperings, not actual facts by your following post 347:

    “Strange that you leave Donald Trump off your list, seeing as we have recordings in which he brags openly about:”

    “1) Committing forcible sexual assault on multiple women”
    “2) Violating young girls by peeping at them in the dressing rooms of his beauty pageants”

    if you mean for Trump’s “Access Hollywood Video”, most people feel Trump lies a lot or exaggerates (including me), so please show/prove to me what Trump said on the video is “true.” I am sure the video is still within the statute of limitations that the local authorities could arrest him for admitting to a crime. If so, why wouldn’t they?

    But who knows maybe the police or DA are not doing anything because Trump is also saying in the crass video, “They let you do it.” So he’s implying, rightly or wrongly, that in his mind his hypothetical i.e. lie or exaggeration, has consent. So it would not be criminal because there’s no claim that he’s overcoming anybody’s will.

    Thanks.

    Where Eagles Dare (8f562c)

  326. There is no “evidence.”

    You clearly don’t understand what the word “evidence” means, which is amusing considering the density of lawyers on this site.

    Hint: “evidence” does not mean “conclusive proof”.

    Dave (445e97)

  327. Dave

    Short answer:

    You missed the entire point of post 352: Trump doesn’t state a crime of any kind in the Access Video. Trump is simply being crass. Hence no “evidence” since not even a potential criminal act is described in the Video. Your “MacGuffin” about a supposed definition I don’t understand, doesn’t hold any merit against that point and implies ignorance on my part, which is offensive.

    Long answer:

    Your post 354:

    “You clearly don’t understand what the word “evidence” means, which is amusing considering the density of lawyers on this site.”

    “Hint: “evidence” does not mean “conclusive proof”.”

    Your definition Dave, assuming I did not understand the legal term of “evidence,” doesn’t change one iota of what I posted.

    So what is your point in your post post 346 & 347 that there is “more evidence with Trump” and the video?

    Your post 346:

    “the evidence against Trump is also much stronger.”

    “Strange that you leave Donald Trump off your list, seeing as we have recordings in which he brags openly about…”

    My 352 post:

    “if you mean for Trump’s “Access Hollywood Video”, most people feel Trump lies a lot or exaggerates (including me), so please show/prove to me what Trump said on the video is “true.” I am sure the video is still within the statute of limitations that the local authorities could arrest him for admitting to a crime. If so, why wouldn’t they?”

    “But who knows maybe the police or DA are not doing anything because Trump is also saying in the crass video, “They let you do it.” So he’s implying, rightly or wrongly, that in his mind his hypothetical i.e. lie or exaggeration, has consent. So it would not be “a crime” because there’s no claim that he’s overcoming anybody’s will.”

    Hint Dave: I am saying there is not even a crime “bragged” about to provide “evidence” for.

    To restate since for you: The police or DA are not doing anything because Trump is not shown them by his big mouth any “evidence” of any wrong doing to warrant an investigation or an arrest. He is saying in the crass video, “They let you do it.” So he’s implying, rightly or wrongly, that in his mind his hypothetical i.e. lie or exaggeration, has consent. So it would not be criminal EVIDENCE to warrant an arrest, indictment and later, a criminal trial, because there’s no claim that he’s overcoming anybody’s will.

    Hint Dave: “Arrest” or “Indictment” also doesn’t imply “guilt” or “conclusive proof” either.

    Unless you have something that is backed up by facts about what I am saying, or you are some kind of a telepath, please don’t imply or make up what “definitions”I know or don’t know.

    Some people seem to want to call false accusations backed up by forged documents “evidence” that Moore should drop out of a US Senator race. If the documents are forged they are not even “evidence”.

    Other people seem to want to call a crass video “evidence” that Trump is unfit to be the POTUS because it implies he is guilty of a crime. Yet being crass is also not “evidence” of anything criminal.

    In addition, the contempt of those kind of people, for those who don’t fit their narrative, is disheartening to say the least.

    Thanks very much.

    Where Eagles Dare (8f562c)

  328. Since we just celebrated Halloween last month, and this week we celebrated the national feast day started by our Puritan & Pilgrim forebears, I am feeling a wee bit nostalgic & contemplative. And I think a few other folks are felling a bit nostalgic as well.

    The more I read from those who think Moore or Trump are guilty by simple accusations, if not association, that are not backed up by any evidence, or the evidence is determined to be a forgery, the more i think that those who feel that way would have enjoyed Salem where you were considered “guilty” of being a witch by a simple accusation and the only way to “prove” your innocence was by drowning because only witches could swim.

    Now i am not saying all who are against Moore or Trump feel that way, just a few 😉

    Until dawn have a pleasant good night & don’t let the bats bite 😉

    Where Eagles Dare (8f562c)

  329. Denying true claims seems like that to me.

    Purple seems like red to me.

    Kevin M (752a26)

  330. So, does any of this justify a vote for a man who advocates things that are sinful? Is intention of future sin less troubling than past sin? Would one prefer another choice? (spoiler: yes). Is the state law an ass for not allowing it? (also yes). Is this yet another indictment of month’s long early voting? (Hell yes).

    Kevin M (752a26)

  331. One last question: Does anyone else find this to be a despiriting debate? Surely there are issues that natter. Surely the GOP can find better candidates. Maybe Trump’s America is a place where Judge Judy actually belongs on the Supreme Court.

    Barlow pushed another button, with his free hand ready at the volume control.

    “—latest from Washington. It’s about Senator Hull-Mendoza. He is still attacking the Bureau of Fisheries. The North California Syndicalist says he got affydavits that John Kingsley-Schultz is a bluenose from way back. He didn’t publistat the affydavits, but he says they say that Kingsley-Schultz was saw at bluenose meetings in Oregon State College and later at Florida University. Kingsley-Schultz says he gotta confess he did major in fly casting at Oregon and got his Ph.D. in game-fish at Florida.

    “And here is a quote from Kingsley-Schultz: ‘Hull-Mendoza don’t know what he’s talking about. He should drop dead.’ Unquote. HullMendoza says he won’t publistat the affydavits to pertect his sources. He says they was sworn by three former employes of the Bureau which was fired for in-competence and in-com-pat-ibility by Kingsley-Schultz.

    C M Kornbluth, The Marching Morons

    Kevin M (752a26)


  332. 289.Hey Hoagie! At least all those babies you rescue into abusive homes can enjoy life for 18 or 20 years.
    Admiral Ben burn (b3d5ab) — 11/25/2017 @ 2:36 pm

    You are a very cruel and nasty man, Ben! You know full well the fear and pain my family is going through right now not knowing the whereabouts or well being of my grandson. For you to radicle my and my first wife’s decision to take in neglected children in what seems an effort to deliberately demean me is deplorable. My grandson could be dead for all we know and you give him a life span of “18 or 20 years” to enjoy life? Thanks for your compassion.

    Rev.Hoagie® (6bbda7)

  333. waterboarding ben burnee bro would be the happiest time of the year.

    mg (60b0f7)

  334. Mr M wrote:

    One last question: Does anyone else find this to be a despiriting debate?

    I certainly do! What should have been an easy GOP seat retention now comes loaded with so much baggage that even if we retain the seat, Mr Moore will have a hard time getting anything positive accomplished. The second-best for which we can hope is that he’ll be there to vote for President Trump’s court appointments, and the best is that he gets expelled, and a Republican is appointed to replace him. Poor choices, and it’s pretty bad that we have to realize that the worst option is a Democrat in that seat.

    The saddened Dana (ecab7a)

  335. The whole point of thus exercise eponymous Dana is to prevent anyone from doing anything substantial.

    narciso (d1f714)

  336. Rear Admiral Burn wrote:

    Hey Hoagie! At least all those babies you rescue into abusive homes can enjoy life for 18 or 20 years.

    How interesting it is that Mr Burn thinks that these children would have such miserable lives that they’d be better off dead, and that other people should get to decide who’s better off dead.

    Strange thing is, most children growing up in ‘abusive homes’ don’t commit suicide; apparently, when they get to take the decision themselves, they don’t decide that they’d be better off dead.

    The Dana pointing out the obvious (ecab7a)

  337. Narciso, damn straight it’s a travesty…that Flynn is party to the propagation of Turkish cinematography.

    urbanleftbehind (7c507c)

  338. How interesting it is that Mr Burn thinks that these children would have such miserable lives that they’d be better off dead, and that other people should get to decide who’s better off dead.

    You and Hoagie deliberately obfuscate. Are you saying children don’t suffer when they are unwanted? Take a closer look at the unintended consequences of your good intention.

    Admiral Ben burn (b3d5ab)

  339. if you want to pick the best choice it’s Mr. Roy Moore that’s for sure

    happyfeet (60512a)

  340. Happy, that makes me think of Narciso link about the mall melee in Hoover, AL and he sarcastically(?) said it was Moore’s kind of people. We all know it was black toots, but in a jungle primary situation where it is like R vs. R IN the grand finale, Moore would be the least disliked vs. an opponent more like Sesions.

    urbanleftbehind (7c507c)

  341. Where Eagles Dare (8f562c) — 11/25/2017 @ 9:04 pm

    Sorry, I didn’t realize you were such an expert on handwriting that you can discover forgery based on online images alone.

    However, you don’t seem to realize that if any of the handwriting in the year book is Moore’s, then what Nelson said about him signing the yearbook is true. And in fact what is shown on the images is one sentence with the signature “Roy Moore”, all in what appears to be the same handwriting. The rest appears to me to be a woman’s handwriting, and I would theorize that Nelson wrote it to serve as a statement or reminder of when and where “Roy Moore” signed the book. She could have done that at any time in the last forty years, up to and including the moment she handed the yearbook over to Allred. Which leaves the core–that sentence wishing Merry Christimas and the signature with it–to be written or not be written by Moore. And the signature readily matches Moore’s known signature.

    And you will notice there that I made sure to make clear how much of that is my speculation. I know the limits of analyzing online images.

    But the larger point is that the Broadrick case rests on the victim’s word, just like the Moore accusastions.

    kishnevi (bb03e6)

  342. Rev.Hoagie® (6bbda7) — 11/26/2017 @ 4:26 am

    Hoagie, I’m pretty sure BenBern was talking about the biological parents who keep their unwanted kids instead of abortion, and not people like yourself who step in and take up the burden of raising kids their biological parents don’t want.

    kishnevi (bb03e6)

  343. Thank you kishnevi but they left off a salient ingredient….some want bodies to slough off in their wars of choice and breeders comply.

    Admiral Ben burn (b3d5ab)

  344. The Republican Party is now the Trump party: “There is zero appetite for the ‘Never Trump’ movement in the Republican Party of today,” an adviser to a pro-Trump super PAC told the New York Times. “The party is now defined by President Trump and his movement.”

    https://www.nbcnews.com/think/opinion/trump-his-voters-are-drawn-together-shared-sense-defiance-ncna823266

    Admiral Ben burn (b3d5ab)

  345. For JC chairman Adm Mullen on This Week discusses his concerns.

    https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.theatlantic.com/amp/article/534624/

    Admiral Ben burn (b3d5ab)

  346. 370

    … what Nelson said about him signing the yearbook is true. …

    Didn’t she (or her attorney) claim all the writing was Moore’s?

    James B. Shearer (951d11)

  347. 375
    Good point. But I don’t know (or at least don’t remember)in detail what she said initially. Anyone have a handy link to a transcript?

    kishnevi (bb03e6)

  348. @375 Didn’t she (or her attorney) claim all the writing was Moore’s?

    I don’t believe so. To me it’s always seemed likely that there were at least two contributors to the writing on the page. (Not that I pretend to have any particular expertise in h/writing recognition/analysis): (1) The first pair of “77s” look remarkably dissimilar to the second pair.
    Which would make sense if the top part was the Moore inscription, and the bottom part (after the signature name itself, or at least the signature line) was an “add on” (which also makes perfect sense); (2) The odd curl in the D in the “DA” after the signature itself, looks “odd” (/ “feminine”) as compared to the inscription above (conceding that I didn’t note at capital D in the inscription, for point-to-point comparison) [parenthetically, this D looks nothing like any D I’ve seen which is presented as the secretarial/clerk initials “DA” placed after Judge Moore’s signature on official documents/copies thereof]; (3) The hand-printed portion (“Olde Hickory …”) looks remarkably “feminine” to me – with its “slashed e” and all. (While the hand of the inscription itself looks neither particularly feminine or masculine.)

    fwiw, I find the arguments/opinions that this inscription is a forgery of Roy Moore’s to be quite unconvincing, and that it is an “obvious forgery” to be signs of weakness of intellect/observation/honest consideration.

    Q! (86710c)

  349. Some folks interpret the right to vote as a responsibility to vote, and moreover, to vote for a candidate with a realistic chance of winning — meaning: no protest/third-party votes. Those voters consider it their duty to participate in the presidential elections in the way that will most likely result in the better, or at least the less-bad, of the two major-party candidates.

    If you start with that premise, then you can feel okay about having voted for Trump, and you end up making realistic and rational arguments like those my friend The Dana Who has made here.

    I don’t start with that premise. Even in a two-candidate election, I choose to impose a very broad but loose qualifying step: Regardless of whether he/she is least-worst, is this a candidate whom I can cast an affirmative vote for in good conscience, thereby sharing in the future responsibility for having put this candidate in office?

    Neither Clinton nor Trump came remotely close to satisfying this test for me. If the election were held again tomorrow, I’d still not vote for either of them, even though Trump has generally done better than my worst-case predictions for him. Assuming he lives that long, and isn’t impeached in the House and convicted in the Senate, before the 2020 presidential election, I will certainly be voting for someone else — not Trump — in the 2020 GOP presidential election primaries.

    Roy Moore likewise failed to pass my threshold test. He is not someone who I could bring myself to vote for, regardless of the alternatives, and that was equally as true of him — going back at least to 2003, long before any of this sexual predation stuff came out — as it was for Trump and Clinton.

    The only other remark I have on this subject at this time is to point out, with respect to those who’ve argued that Moore might have repented or at least cleaned up his act, is this: Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. The low character of a 30+ year old man who sought to “seduce” 14-year-olds is not something that can be redeemed by merely suppressing one’s worst predatory actions. I don’t expect him to be trolling the Senate galleries asking visiting parents permission to “date” their daughters. But Roy Moore has more in common with the mullahs in Iran than he does even with the most rabid populist wing of the GOP. That he’s ever been in this general election at all — given his history as an active, non-theoretical opponent of the Rule of Law — is itself a stain upon American democracy. That he might win it is a rancid possibility that I cannot contemplate without genuine disgust.

    Beldar (fa637a)

  350. In this vein, if one is to credit Roy Moore’s claim/suggestion of forgery, why is it that the good judge has not provided the public with a handwriting sample of the era ( late 70s – early 80s ??) which might show that the “inscription itself” is clearly not in his hand? The lack of any such proffer itself seems rather damning. All things considered.

    Q! (86710c)

  351. Roughly Reared Admiral Burn wrote:

    You and Hoagie deliberately obfuscate. Are you saying children don’t suffer when they are unwanted? Take a closer look at the unintended consequences of your good intention.

    No, I’m saying that those children don’t seem to think that they’d be better off dead, given that they aren’t all committing suicide.

    You are trying to say that other people’s judgement of how awful their lives must be ought to be controlling, in ending their lives before birth; I am telling you that, whatever suffering they undergo, the fact that the vast majority don’t try to kill themselves tells you, tells me, tells all of us, that they don’t consider themselves better off dead.

    The very blunt Dana (ecab7a)

  352. Thank you Beldar. As usual when you make the same point I was trying to make, you do it much better.

    But:
    The low character of a 30+ year old man who sought to “seduce” 14-year-olds is not something that can be redeemed by merely suppressing one’s worst predatory actions.

    Given that the WaPo could not find anything more recent, and more specifically dating from after his marriage, does suggest he managed–probably with the help of religion–to suppress that behavior.

    kishnevi (bb03e6)

  353. #370, you don’t need a weatherman… (or a handwriting expert) to spot an obvious forgery. Allred’s refusal to allow an independent examination also provides a strong indication she knows, or fears, the yearbook is bogus.

    Additionally, you don’t seem to realize, or wish to acknowledge, the implications that attach if anyone other than Roy Moore signed Moore’s name in the yearbook, your absurd speculative excuses notwithstanding.

    Your rush to assume guilt based on accusation – the hallmark of a perverted legal system – and your efforts to conflate Clinton’s on-going lifetime history of sex crimes (along with perjury and obstruction) up to and including Slick Willy’s many recent romps with underage nymphetts on Epstine’s Lolita Express with an exceptionally conveniently timed attack on a key GOP Senate candidate the Left dispises for his unapologetic adherence to Christian morality and to 2nd amendment rights is both laughable and sad, as well as transparently typical of the modern Democrat modus operandi under the twisted leadership of Hillary Clinton and Nancy Pelosi acting in concert with their professional Jurnolista media attack dogs.

    ropelight (6e3a0c)

  354. My good friend Beldar wrote:

    Some folks interpret the right to vote as a responsibility to vote, and moreover, to vote for a candidate with a realistic chance of winning — meaning: no protest/third-party votes. Those voters consider it their duty to participate in the presidential elections in the way that will most likely result in the better, or at least the less-bad, of the two major-party candidates.

    If you start with that premise, then you can feel okay about having voted for Trump, and you end up making realistic and rational arguments like those my friend The Dana Who has made here.

    I’d point out here that I didn’t vote for either the smarmy Donald Trump or the even more odious Hillary Clinton; I voted for Gary Johnson, the first time I have ever voted for a minor party candidate for President.

    I will admit it: I assumed that Mrs Clinton would carry Pennsylvania, given that it wasn’t really a ‘swing state’ in anyone’s estimation; the last Republican to carry the keystone State had been the elder George Bush in 1988. I judged that voting for Mr Trump, to keep Mrs Clinton — who was, as we all know, guaranteed to win! — was a wasted vote, and that a protest vote for Mr Johnson would better send a message that the GOP had nominated a terrible candidate.

    And I still think the GOP nominated a terrible candidate; the country is simply fortunate that the Democrats nominated a worse one.

    With the Moore/Jones election, we have a close race, and one which has real implications for our country. Yes, I have voted third party in a non-presidential race, also one in which the outcome was undoubted, Senator Arlen Specter’s (R-PA) 2004 re-election bid; he was so far ahead of Socialist Democrat Joe Hoeffel that it was safe for me to vote for Constitution Party candidate Jim Clymer.

    The Dana who voted for Gary Johnson (ecab7a)

  355. narciso (d1f714) — 11/25/2017 @ 7:58 pm

    BTW, backing up to this link from last night–that actually confirms the portrait of Moore being a self-righteous martinet during his Vietnam years. It’s merely presented by someone more sympathetic to Moore. Although perhaps he begged off the brothel out of fear that he could not afford it–the description gives me the feeling the prices charged there were not cut-rate.

    kishnevi (bb03e6)

  356. Mr Nevi wrote:

    The low character of a 30+ year old man who sought to “seduce” 14-year-olds is not something that can be redeemed by merely suppressing one’s worst predatory actions.

    Given that the WaPo could not find anything more recent, and more specifically dating from after his marriage, does suggest he managed–probably with the help of religion–to suppress that behavior.

    Suppress? Perhaps his preferences have actually changed.

    Really, everybody’s does. When I was married, at age 26, I sure wasn’t interested in any 57-year-old women . . . but I am now! I didn’t find grey hair on women at all attractive when I was 26; I do now. The simple passage of time changes people’s desires and perspectives.

    The realistic Dana (ecab7a)

  357. 380

    No, I’m telling you forcing your morals through legislation/voting is not winning converts and making yourself the arbiters of who should live and who should die( death penalty) is a slippery slope.

    Admiral Ben burn (b3d5ab)

  358. Suppose cutting a line was a crime. Trump says “When you’re rich you can just step into a line. People let you cut lines.”

    Dave: Trump just admitted to a crime. He’s an unindicted line cutter.

    Unfortunately the new left statute of limitations states you have up to seven years to withdraw your consent.

    Pinandpuller (80bd35)

  359. Additionally, you don’t seem to realize, or wish to acknowledge, the implications that attach if anyone other than Roy Moore signed Moore’s name in the yearbook, your absurd speculative excuses notwithstanding.

    May I point out that if it’s a forgery, it’s not an obvious forgery. If it was forged, the forger made a very good imitation of Moore’s signature. And I’m allowing for the very real possibility that it was forged. Unlike WED or you, I know my limits at analyzing photo images seen online. But the point WED raises–that there is more than one person’s handwriting–does not mean that the core sentence and Moore’s signature was forged. And the different handwriting can be accounted for without requiring forgery to have taken place.

    And I refer to Juanita B. specifically because she was referenced in particular by others. The evidence for her claim of rape boils down to her word, just like the claims against Moore. The rest of Clinton’s sexcapades are irrelevant to the point I’m making.

    You are in fact making the reverse mistake you accuse me of. You assume that because the Left is claiming Moore did these things the claims are not true, just because the Left is making them. The best propaganda uses facts, not inventions. The art comes in with selecting which facts to present….

    kishnevi (bb03e6)

  360. I sure wasn’t interested in any 57-year-old women

    Knowing you, I suspect you still aren’t interested in the generality of 57-year-old women. You are interested in one woman, your wife, who happens to be 57 years old. True, isn’t it?

    kishnevi (bb03e6)

  361. Two words: Emmylou Harris.

    I said to the man, are you trying to tempt me

    Because I retired down in Kentucky?

    Pinandpuller (80bd35)

  362. Two more words: Melissa McBride

    Jamie Lee Curtis look too much like my mom now. Ewww

    Pinandpuller (80bd35)

  363. No, I’m saying that those children don’t seem to think that they’d be better off dead, given that they aren’t all committing suicide.

    This isn’t the right question. If they had horrible childhoods but are now doing okay they don’t have the option of erasing their past suffering. The right question is something like would you choose to bear a child knowing they will have a life like yours.

    James B. Shearer (951d11)

  364. I come from the state down under

    Where guitars twang and senators blunder

    The only type of bread is Wonder

    You better put me on your album cover

    Pinandpuller (80bd35)

  365. What level of obtuseness, consider that Doug Jones put the wrong man in prison, allowing the perpetrator of the Olympic bombings to go on attack a gay night club and an abortion clinic, because Richard jewell just screamed murderer.

    narciso (6708a7)

  366. Actually she had at least two witnesses, norma Rogers and one other, but as,long as your willing to hang one and absolve another.

    narciso (6708a7)

  367. But unlike Clarence Thomas who is pilloried Abu mayer and Abramson even more frequently than the cicada, those details often escape note.

    narciso (6708a7)

  368. 376

    Good point. But I don’t know (or at least don’t remember)in detail what she said initially. Anyone have a handy link to a transcript?

    This NYT story claims she said:

    I turned 16 on November 14, 1977. About a month later I received my yearbook from Southside high school where I had spent my freshman and sophomore years. I happened to bring my yearbook to work with me to the restaurant on December 22, 1977. I put it down at the end of the counter. Mr. Moore happened to notice it and asked if he could write in your yearbook. I felt flattered and I said “yes”. He wrote in my yearbook as follows:

    and held up the yearbook.

    This seems to me to be a claim that Moore wrote the whole thing. And I am unaware of any later correction or clarification. Of course the woman could have forgotten exactly what happened but that is one reason for a statute of limitations, it is difficult to accurately recall long ago events.

    James B. Shearer (951d11)

  369. and that other people should get to decide who’s better off dead.

    There are things not to wish for, as Karma is a bitch.

    Kevin M (752a26)

  370. The Republican Party is now the Trump party: “There is zero appetite for the ‘Never Trump’ movement in the Republican Party of today,” an adviser to a pro-Trump super PAC told the New York Times. “The party is now defined by President Trump and his movement.”

    I guess we’ll find out in 2019 or so. *Someone* will challenge Trump, unless he has risen considerably in the polls. And if he loses, I would expect all of his supporters who were all “oh no not hillary!” in 2016 to back the Republican against Warren or Harris.

    Kevin M (752a26)

  371. Neither Clinton nor Trump came remotely close to satisfying this test for me. If the election were held again tomorrow, I’d still not vote for either of them,

    But, Beldar, you live in a state (as do I) where the outcome was unavoidable. My write-in vote was a choice without even potential consequence. Virtue signalling, if you will. At best, it serves as a message of dissatisfaction which may or may not be heard.

    More difficult is what choice we would have made in PA or MI or even NC. When there is the possibility of disastrous beating merely awful, the nose-holding binary choice becomes real.

    And that is the situation in Alabama. I guess you could say that one Senate seat isn’t all that important, and justify voting NOTA as a result, but it seems a cop-out to me.

    Kevin M (752a26)

  372. Question: Should Gary Studds have been expelled from the House?

    Kevin M (752a26)

  373. Mr Burn wrote:

    No, I’m telling you forcing your morals through legislation/voting is not winning converts and making yourself the arbiters of who should live and who should die( death penalty) is a slippery slope.

    Given that you know I am opposed to capital punishment, your comment loses its validity.

    The amused Dana (ecab7a)

  374. Part of my problem with this whole “irredeemable” argument is that I deal with people on a daily basis who have changed, or are trying to change, their lives utterly. To the point that, after a passage of time, the old person could truly be called dead. It happens.

    I recognize that it’s not the way to bet and that few see a lot of successes. I do. For example, I have seen homeless bag ladies become fully-functional members of society (surprised the sh1t out of me, too). I have also seen deep-in-the-game gang-bangers reform and be worthwhile people (that happens a bit more).

    So I am reluctant to let poorly substantiated charges of 40-year-old behavior — charges that are by their nature irrefutable — be the window through which I decide people’s fate.

    Kevin M (752a26)

  375. You’re the exception to the Rule, then Dana. But you’re not opposed to suicide in jail as long as the dead didn’t get help so I don’t remotely understand your sense of right/wrong

    Admiral Ben burn (b3d5ab)

  376. Mr Nevi wrote:

    I sure wasn’t interested in any 57-year-old women

    Knowing you, I suspect you still aren’t interested in the generality of 57-year-old women. You are interested in one woman, your wife, who happens to be 57 years old. True, isn’t it?

    True enough, but that doesn’t mean I can’t appreciate the beauty of other ladies of similar age.

    38 years, 6 months and 7 days so far.

    The Dana who isn't blind (ecab7a)

  377. I also suspect that some of those who oppose Moore now, would be similarly opposed without these allegations. As Beldar points out, Moore’s disregard for the Rule of Established Precedent Law would be cause for his opposition regardless. I suspect he is not alone.

    Kevin M (752a26)

  378. Mr Burn wrote:

    You’re the exception to the Rule, then Dana. But you’re not opposed to suicide in jail as long as the dead didn’t get help so I don’t remotely understand your sense of right/wrong

    You can’t? Suicide would be their choice!

    Suicide is the one unforgivable sin, in that someone who has committed suicide can’t ask for forgiveness. But suicide is also an act which violates no one else’s rights, and thus ought not to be something that is the concern of the state.

    The pro-life Dana (ecab7a)

  379. Mr Shearer asked:

    The right question is something like would you choose to bear a child knowing they will have a life like yours.

    And how can anyone know that, in advance?

    I grew up dirt-poor, but when my wife and I had children, we weren’t quite so poor anymore. Still, an accident could have taken away everything we had earned. God has given us few guarantees in this life.

    The Army-daddy Dana (ecab7a)

  380. Dana

    Should there be death panels where unhappy or incorrigible type’s can get advice about how to do it alone?

    I’m just trying to understand what sounds like indifference and apathy toward what you see as unworthy lives.

    Admiral Ben burn (b3d5ab)

  381. Roy Moore is going to be a very good senator and that’s in spite of all this lying these boo boos be doing on him

    happyfeet (5bd5f1)

  382. Mr M asked:

    Question: Should Gary Studds have been expelled from the House?

    The distinguished gentleman from Massachusetts was sodomizing a 17-year-old page, but, apparently, the age of consent was 16, so no actual crime was committed. The problem turned out to be that the voters in the district he represented were not in the least distressed about his carnal activities, and kept re-electing his skanky ass.

    The Dana who remembers (ecab7a)

  383. Mr Burn persists:

    Dana: Should there be death panels where unhappy or incorrigible type’s can get advice about how to do it alone?

    I’m just trying to understand what sounds like indifference and apathy toward what you see as unworthy lives.

    I suppose that’s why Al Gore invented the internet, but if you want to commit suicide and can’t figure out how, you are really stupid.

    Just where do you see me as having said that any lives are unworthy? That’s just a straw man argument on your part. I stated that it was the person’s choice, not any declaration that his life was valueless.

    The Dana who recognizes stupid questions (ecab7a)

  384. Mr M wrote:

    More difficult is what choice we would have made in PA or MI or even NC. When there is the possibility of disastrous beating merely awful, the nose-holding binary choice becomes real.

    No one ever expected Pennsylvania or Michigan to not be carried by the lovely Mrs Clinton. When I cast my vote for Governor Johnson, I was sure that Mrs Clinton would carry the state. It would have been a more difficult vote had the Keystone State been considered a toss-up.

    The Dana who used to live in Pennsylvania (ecab7a)

  385. not any declaration that his life was valueless.

    You sure fooled me. You don’t feel superior to those not religious?

    Time to reset

    Admiral Ben burn (b3d5ab)

  386. icon not keep my pants on john has stepped down from the judiciary committee.
    1 down with al heading towards the unemployment line.

    mg (60b0f7)

  387. It’s interesting watching the abusers as to Party

    Liberals repentant

    Conservatives in denial

    At least That’s normal behavior.

    Admiral Ben burn (b3d5ab)

  388. Actually she had at least two witnesses, norma Rogers and one other, but as,long as your willing to hang one and absolve another.

    narciso (6708a7) — 11/26/2017 @ 10:07 am

    Even in Shariah Court that’s practically a slam dunk.

    Pinandpuller (16b0b5)

  389. What you think they will actually force Conyers out of , tell me another one

    narciso (347782)

  390. Question: Should Gary Studds have been expelled from the House?

    Kevin M (752a26) — 11/26/2017 @ 10:51 am

    He liked his pages like he liked his cold medicine: OTC.

    So what’s the age of consent in DC?

    Pinandpuller (16b0b5)

  391. See? Liberals can be shamed.

    Any conservative abusers not in denial?

    Admiral Ben burn (b3d5ab)

  392. There’s an old joke about the guy who wanted to come back as a stud so he died and ended up on a snow tire in MN. It was a lot funnier in third grade.

    Pinandpuller (16b0b5)

  393. I think ABB should be referred to as t’aint because he t’aint smart and he t’aint funny.

    Pinandpuller (16b0b5)

  394. Lawyers…

    Should settlement agreements be public as a matter of law?

    Admiral Ben burn (b3d5ab)

  395. Can’t name one abuser ?

    All in denialying?

    Admiral Ben burn (b3d5ab)

  396. Congressional settlement agreements definitely should. They are working for us and often using our money to pay their victims. Hiding the details from us adds insult to injury.

    DRJ (15874d)

  397. TIL taking a leave of absence=shame.

    Shame Level: Tonya Harding can I start over?

    Pinandpuller (16b0b5)

  398. You had to be high to vote for Johnson. Of course the same could be said about votes cast for Felonia Von Pantload or teh Trumpster.

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  399. @426 Lawyers… [¶] Should settlement agreements be public as a matter of law?

    Nope. As far as a more nuanced answer to a more nuanced question, that might be a different story. Personally I am not familiar with (a) any “model” legislation (if any exists) on the subject (or a sub-set); (b) any existing legislation of any US state or body (if any exists) on the subject (or a sub-set); or ( c ) any existing legislation of any foreign jurisdiction (if any exists) on the subject (or a sub-set). Nor with any history of such legislation-in-practice (if any exists), and the boons and/or benefits supposedly flowing therefrom. Given the number of articles that appear in law reviews, however, I cannot but imagine that over the past, say, 20 years … more than one more-or-less-precocious student or professor has intoned on this question (or a sub-set thereof).

    Q! (86710c)

  400. 409

    And how can anyone know that, in advance?

    I was thinking of people with things like Huntington’s disease. I am under the impression that such people generally either choose not to have children or to have the fetus tested and aborted if it is carrying the bad gene.

    James B. Shearer (951d11)

  401. 398

    I don’t know what happened to the link that was supposed to be in this comment (number 398). I will try again to link the NYT story.

    James B. Shearer (951d11)

  402. Thank you for digging that out.

    This seems to me to be a claim that Moore wrote the whole thing.

    By implication but not explicitly. And she may have been thinking that the difference between Moore’s handwriting (if it was his) and the feminine handwriting was so obvious she didn’t need to draw attention to it.

    But the forgery is not nearly so obvious as some people here think. And if it was forged, why did the forger add in the handwriting which is obviously not written by Moore?

    kishnevi (5a7bdb)

  403. How many outlets have really ctitucally examined this killian memo, it was stipulated as true along with glens dubious affirmation.

    narciso (d1f714)

  404. By implication but not explicitly. And she may have been thinking that the difference between Moore’s handwriting (if it was his) and the feminine handwriting was so obvious she didn’t need to draw attention to it.

    But the forgery is not nearly so obvious as some people here think. And if it was forged, why did the forger add in the handwriting which is obviously not written by Moore?

    kishnevi (5a7bdb) — 11/26/2017 @ 5:01 pm

    You’re just dissembling. The claim has always been that Moore wrote the full statement. Now you’re claiming it’s obvious he did not.

    Just admit your issue with Moore is that he’s an evangelical Christian.

    Full stop.

    NJRob (2ad508)

  405. Just admit your issue with Moore is that he’s an evangelical Christian.

    No, my issue with him is the same that Beldar and Kevin M. have with him: he doesn’t believe in the Rule of Law. He thinks he can freely ignore any judicial orders and any laws he doesn’t like. The fact that he advocates for a Christian theocratic regime is a part of that–and makes him out of the mainstream even among evangelicals.

    kishnevi (5a7bdb)

  406. kishnevi

    I have never once used or reference Juanita Broderick in any post on this subject. Not sure how it is relevant to anything you and I are discussing except you have some kind of infatuation with Juanita’s accusations. I do NOT use or reference unsubstantiated accusers, which include Juanita Broderick.

    Not sure why YOU do.

    Clinton is condemned as per official court and government records that go back decades. The 1997/98 District Court’s ruling in favor of Paula Jones in Jones v. Clinton, in addition to Clinton’s perjury, obstruction of justice and impeachment confirms as FACT his sexual predatory ways as far back as 1991.

    In regards to your following comments:

    “Sorry, I didn’t realize you were such an expert on handwriting that you can discover forgery based on online images alone.”

    YEP its done all the time for auctions throughout the world on a regular basis.

    As I have repeatedly stated I do research and purchase art and regularly have to verify artists’ techniques and signatures. The yearbook is a forgery.

    No where in any official communication with the press does the accuser or her lawyer state that what is shown in the yearbook is written by any other person(s) but Moore. And there are at LEAST 3 different scripts. The main paragraph, the signature, the two different sets of 1977 dates and the printied “Olde Hickory House” versus all of the other lettering. The R, M and double Os are do not match any signatures that are by Roy Moore. The most obvious sign that the signature is fake is the Y which always has a large loop that either crosses the R or matches the height of the R. Not to mention that Roy Moore NEVER used the acronym “DA” after his name. Even if he did use DA, in the late 1970s Moore was ONLY a deputy district attorney (DDA).

    But the most damning evidence of forgery comes from Gloria Allred herself (the accuser’s lawyer) . When CNN’s Wolf Blitzer asked her directly: “Can you say flatly to our viewers that the signature is not a forgery?” Allred refused to answer his persistent question. In the exchange Blitzer responded, “But that’s not a flat denial, Gloria.” Blitzer also asked why Allred needed a Senate hearing and would not just permit an independent handwriting expert to analyze the yearbook writing. She told Blitzer she would only release the yearbook for examination by handwriting experts if and when a Senate committee calls a special hearing. Allred knows perfectly well the Senate will not call a special hearing for a candidate who is not even a member of the Senate and time wise it’s impossible prior to the December 12 Alabama election.

    It is most definitely a forgery and possibly a crime.

    kishnevi please do not post false narratives about those who wish to defend Moore. It is an offensive and a method of smearing someone you disagree with. I am curious about why you do this. I have never once used an unsubstantiated accuser to back up the predatory history of Bill Clinton or smeared the character of any of Moore accusers. I only deal with the “evidence” presented by the accusers or their lawyers to support their claims. I am very concerned about sex crimes carried out by politicians in any political party or in any institution. I doesn’t help your case against Moore that he is supposedly guilty of being a sexual predator. If Moore is guilty of anything it is being the victim of a political smear campaign carried about by the Washington Post which has reporters who attend & participate in DNC/Soros political action conferences, which was reported this week in the media.

    Thanks very much.

    Where Eagles Dare (8f562c)

  407. When this story first broke, it was revealed that Beverly Nelson Young had a conviction for check fraud. They tried to gloss it over but the few details seemed to show that she had forged her stepfather’s checks.

    nk (dbc370)

  408. *Beverly Young Nelson*, Old Hickory.

    nk (dbc370)

  409. When this story first broke, it was revealed that Beverly Nelson Young had a conviction for check fraud. They tried to gloss it over but the few details seemed to show that she had forged her stepfather’s checks.

    nk (dbc370) — 11/26/2017 @ 6:54 pm

    Whenever I sign a yearbook I run a line all the way across the page.

    Pinandpuller (16b0b5)

  410. First off, Juanita B. was mentioned by other people in this thread. I thought you did to, but I guess I was confused.

    Second, your observations about Moore’s signature are incorrect, going by the images on this link
    https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/roy-moore-says-signature-forgery-experts-say-more-evidence-needed-n821936

    To me they look like an almost perfect match other than the middle initial used in the one seen in the judicial order. But what do I know? My experience is limited to matching signatures on customer’s credit cards at my job. Pro tip: signatures by the same person can vary a lot, especially if there is a substantial interval of time between them.

    In fact, one of the original arguments used to “prove” forgery was that it was obviously copied off a judicial order signed by Moore.

    You undoubtedly missed my remark last week that “D.A. 12-22-77 Olde Hickory House” were all written in the same handwriting, and by a woman.

    Lastly, Allred’s refusal to allow examination is a sound strategy whether or not forgery is involved.

    kishnevi (5a7bdb)

  411. When this story first broke, it was revealed that Beverly Nelson Young had a conviction for check fraud. They tried to gloss it over but the few details seemed to show that she had forged her stepfather’s checks.

    nk (dbc370) — 11/26/2017 @ 6:54 pm

    Can you remember all of the checks you forged 30 years ago? I can’t.

    Well…my grandma used to drive me crazy putting Mr and Mrs ****** * Yada Yada Yada on Christmas checks and I wouldn’t notice until I got to the bank…

    Pinandpuller (16b0b5)

  412. You would in fact be better off relying on something like this
    http://wkrg.com/2017/11/20/roy-moore-campaign-attempts-to-debunk-accusers-claims/

    kishnevi (5a7bdb)

  413. 434

    By implication but not explicitly. And she may have been thinking that the difference between Moore’s handwriting (if it was his) and the feminine handwriting was so obvious she didn’t need to draw attention to it.

    If she was thinking that she was being stupid. And her lawyer (whom she presumably hired to protect her) was also being stupid. And as far as I know neither has corrected the record as would be appropriate if this was just a misunderstanding.

    James B. Shearer (951d11)

  414. kishnevi

    Yes I missed what you wrote last week and I agree with you. The “D.A. 12-22-77 Olde Hickory House” were all written in the same handwriting (or a couple of similar ones yet different from the rest of the inscription) , and most likely by a woman. I feel the larger 1977 near Olde Hickory is an even different author from the Olde Hickory style. And those are just a couple reasons I think the yearbook “evidence” is fake and doubt the accusers whole story. Thank you very much for letting me know what you thought about that part of the writing.

    As to the rest of what you wrote:

    I stand by everything i posted in my last response to you. As far as your link all they show is one sample of Moore’s signature. I have looked at more than just one example. If feel your link proves the point on how different the forgery is from the real thing. Moore was in his 30s and a lawyer in the last 1970s. The yearbook signature does not seem like a person of that age or background. And Moore has never signed documents I have seen going back decades in the manner that the yearbook shows. The acronym DA was never used. He wasn’t even a DA in the 1970s. I found Roy Moore signatures going back at least the early 1990s which is within 10-15 years of 1977. The R and Y are the most obvious difference. Lastly, and I feel very significantly, dashes rather than slashes were not common use for dates in the 70s. Let alone in a yearbook note. But by the late 1980s it became a computer standard that crossed over into hand-writing & note-taking. As an aside I have yearbook from 1986 and not one date anywhere with dozens of notes written.

    You posted in 442: “Lastly, Allred’s refusal to allow examination is a sound strategy whether or not forgery is involved.” I strongly disagree. For most it is a sign she & her client have something to hide.

    What is also wrote about in my 438 post included the following:

    “But the most damning evidence of forgery comes from Gloria Allred herself (the accuser’s lawyer) . When CNN’s Wolf Blitzer asked her directly: “Can you say flatly to our viewers that the signature is not a forgery?” Allred refused to answer his persistent question. In the exchange Blitzer responded, “But that’s not a flat denial, Gloria.” ”

    kishnevi, her lawyer could not flatly say to CNN viewers the signature was NOT a forgery. I watched the interview. Blitzer couldn’t believer her answers. He was stunned. And so were many of us watching.

    For me, the smear campaign used against Judge Moore seems liked classic tactics, right out of a marxist playbook known as Rules for Radicals:

    “Make the enemy live up to its own book of rules.”

    “If you push a negative hard and deep enough it will break through into its counterside.”

    “Ridicule is man’s most potent weapon.”

    “Keep the pressure on.”

    “Pick the target, freeze it, personalize it, and polarize it.”

    “Go after people and not institutions; people hurt faster than institutions. (This is cruel, but very effective. Direct, personalized criticism and ridicule works.)”

    “The threat is usually more terrifying than the thing itself.”

    Thats what has been done to Moore by the Washington Post, in support of the DNC. Make him an immoral amoral political boogieman. Personally I don’t think a marxist first came up with these tactics. I think politicians and political campaigns have been doing this for a very long time. Even governments against those they think are inferior or to be subjugated. But a marxist’s strength is knowing how to be codify & simplify (though by “simplifying” I dont mean its a sign of weakness or even “dumbing down”); To be concise and precise in tactics, goals and objectives; In order to win over the most people with the most expedient message. That is the mastery of the marxist ethic i.e. directness. Directness implies trust.

    The amazing thing about the DNC is they are so incompetent at even being “radical.” But thats a post for another thread.

    Thanks very much kishnevi and good night.

    Where Eagles Dare (8f562c)

  415. True as d’souza noted, alinsky derived many of these principles from observing the Chicago mob AND political maxhine.

    narciso (d1f714)

  416. 152. ropelight (e02e5f) — 11/25/2017 @ 9:27 am

    And, the evidence so far indicates that Beverly Young Nelson’s yearbook is a forgery, straight up: different color ink, different handwriting, bogus signature.

    Wait a second. Different color ink? Do we know that? That’s what I suspect could be the truth when I mentioned that the photograph we see is only in black and white, but that’s what we don’t have proof of. (Yes, the yearbook itself was all in black and white but that’s not the point.)

    Different color inks would actually tend to support the notion that it is not a 100% forgery, and Ray Moore maybe signed it but something was added to it. (because if it was all done at once, it would have been simpler to have it all with the same ink. Of course it could be a forgery that somebody made improvements to as more time and thought was put into it.

    A lot of time and thought of course, would indicate Beverly Young Nelson going to Gloria Allred – or some one – would not have been stimulated by the Washington Post story, but pre-date it, and would indicate co-ordination with those people who fed the names of some women to the Washington Post,and raise questions as to why the story did not include her. Most likely because her story was deemed less credible, either by the people pushing it, or by the Washington Post, like for instance maybe the Washington Post discovered that Roy Moore was never the district attorney of Etowah County. More likely the people pushing it knew her story was underminable a number of ways.)

    Another possibility of course is that this is the product of photoshopping that used a genuine Roy Moore signature that was not in a yearbook and what we see in the picture is not to be seen in any genuine yearbook..

    I didn’t notice 3 different handwritings, but the last two lines are hand-printed, not in script, and the 7’s are written differently. That makes two different handwritings. How do you get to three? Do you think the “1977” and the “12-22-77″ were added at different times?

    The bogus signature, if what they are saying is correct, is not taken from a time when Roy Moore was in the district attorney’s office, but when he was a circuit judge.

    It actually looks closer maybe to a misshapen OA, if anything – it’s a triangle – but anyway a clerk of his says she stamped his signature, and then would make a slash and put her initials next to it. If so, this could only be a photoshop, or a cut and paste job.

    One question that hasn’t been settled is if this was in fact BYN’s yearbook or a yearbook from 1977. It’s brought in to show that she’s not making a mistake as to who it is, and to “prove” he went too that restaurant.

    By the way, if you pay attention to the accusations he seems to have been placed at the mall at the same time, (fall, 1977) and he very possibly was neither place, although I suppose they could claim he stopped going to the mall and went to the downscale restaurant near the courthouse instead…the storie about the mall don’t have district attorney but “a lawyer”

    Sammy Finkelman (c31643)

  417. 446. Where Eagles Dare (8f562c) — 11/26/2017 @ 8:38 pm

    The “D.A. 12-22-77 Olde Hickory House” were all written in the same handwriting (or a couple of similar ones yet different from the rest of the inscription) , and most likely by a woman.

    It’s neater, but I don’t know that’s enough to say it was written by a women. You might as well say it was written by an 10-year old.

    I feel the larger 1977 near Olde Hickory is an even different author from the Olde Hickory style.

    The “1” of 1977, looks like the “1” of “12-22″ and the 7’s don’t look that different. What’s curious is that the word Christmas is repeated. Like as if Roy Moore (if this was real) had the yearbook to himself a long time and kept on adding to his inscription. Do you think maybe both times the year is mentioned were added later?

    I found a link where someone claims a different color for some of it, but I think that may be a fraud. It has the “Moore DA 12-22-1977 Olde Hickory House in a different shade of ink even than the Roy, which this person claims may be “Ray””

    One thing this person says is Olde Hickory House was not the name of the restaurant

    That is, itt did not have the “E’ at the end of “Old” Well, that’s one thing that could be checked out. And after all, Olde with a ‘E” means England and Old Hickory is a reference to Andrew Jackson, so somebnody wanting to make an allusion to Andreww Jackson, the winne rof the Battle of New Orleans, would not want to make his restaurant sound English in some way.

    But then why add the “e?” That needs to be explained, too. Maybe for the same reason Etowah County was misspelled. To defeat Nexis Lexis.

    Lastly, and I feel very significantly, dashes rather than slashes were not common use for dates in the 70s.

    This would be someone’s personal style. But you would have slashed and not dashes on a check.

    Yet alone in a yearbook note. But by the late 1980s it became a computer standard that crossed over into hand-writing & note-taking. As an aside I have yearbook from 1986 and not one date anywhere with dozens of notes written.

    There are some people that have the practice of writing in dates. But if this were true, it would be a nice piece of luck for BYN that Roy Moore was in the habit of dating his autographs. You’re right — people just don’t do that. Roy Moore, expecting to become famous some day, and expecting his autographs to be worth money, and the later ones to be worth more, might have dated his autographs. If so, there should be other examples, although the media wouldn’t find them quickly.

    “But the most damning evidence of forgery comes from Gloria Allred herself (the accuser’s lawyer) . When CNN’s Wolf Blitzer asked her directly: “Can you say flatly to our viewers that the signature is not a forgery?” Allred refused to answer his persistent question. In the exchange Blitzer responded, “But that’s not a flat denial, Gloria.” ”

    Does she think she can concede forgery but still maintain the attempted rape happened?

    Sammy Finkelman (c31643)

  418. There might not be any real contemporary yearbook with that writing in it, you know.

    Sammy Finkelman (c31643)

  419. After almost a year in the White House counsel’s office tackling a raft of ethics and financial disclosure issues, James Schultz resigned last week and is returning to private practice at the Philadelphia-based law firm where he previously worked, Cozen O’Connor.

    Schultz insists his exit is unrelated to any of those myriad controversies, but simply triggered by a desire to get back to private law work and back to Philadelphia, where his family has remained.
    https://www.politico.com/blogs/under-the-radar/2017/11/27/trump-white-house-ethics-lawyer-exits-260542

    Admiral Ben burn (b3d5ab)

  420. Christianists meh

    The change could turn churches into a well-funded political force, with donors diverting as much as $1.7 billion each year from traditional political committees to churches and other nonprofit groups that could legally engage in partisan politics for the first time, according to an estimate by the nonpartisan congressional Joint Committee on Taxation.
    https://mobile.nytimes.com/2017/11/26/us/politics/johnson-amendment-churches-taxes-politics.html?referer=

    Admiral Ben burn (b3d5ab)

  421. Churches could become like labor unions.

    Sammy Finkelman (c31643)

  422. SEIU members in the wings.

    Will they hire thugs for their Love of Jesus?

    Admiral Ben burn (b3d5ab)

  423. Moment please. Have two questions:
    1. Who drew sketch of young Beverly Young?
    2. Who try to get fellatio without taking penis out of pants first? Was young Miss Young supposed to stick head inside fly?

    nk (dbc370)

  424. these boo boos is sketchy

    happyfeet (a037ad)

  425. Old Chinese proverb: “Hard to find good liar in Gadsden, Alabama.”

    nk (dbc370)

  426. @450 Does she think she can concede forgery but still maintain the attempted rape happened?

    No. Allred may not be the sharpest pencil in the drawer, but “no”.

    And of course she does not concede in any fashion that the signature is a forgery. E.g., Blitzer/Allred clip of @ 11.15. She studiously avoids answering the question, just as she studiously avoids answering several other questions.

    This is a perfect example of “pivoting”, a technique which has become all-too-commonplace in the last 20-30 years. You don’t answer the question put to you, but pivot back to the point you want to deal with. And you hammer at that point (“your point”), and relentlessly ride over the questions which are asked which are not “on your point”, while (at times, and as Allred did here on several occasions with several different questions), responding to those inquiries/remarks that are not your point, by saying (e.g.) “we are not going to be distracted . . . the important thing is to have an evidentiary hearing and why is Judge Moore unwilling to testify under oath . . . we are willing for an independent examination of the inscription in the proper setting . . .” It’s just what politicians, and pr folks, and spin doctors do. (Sensible or not, under the circumstances.)

    Personally, I think such insistence on such relentless pivoting is oftentimes unwise and that may well be the case here. But it is frankly absurd and obtuse to maintain that Allred conceded that the inscription (the “money part” – imo there’s a likely a tack-on (“caption”) part at the end, which likely was written by Nelson herself at the time) is a forgery.

    Q! (86710c)

  427. You don’t answer the question put to you, but pivot back to the point you want to deal with

    Strangely, they are unaware of the incorrigible dishonesty. Even if you point and fire flares….nothing.

    Admiral Ben burn (b3d5ab)

  428. 459. Q! (86710c) — 11/27/2017 @ 9:10 am

    E.g., Blitzer/Allred clip of @ 11.15.

    The YOUTube video only goes up to 10:48.

    Gloroia Allred is not answering obvious quesitons. It would be easy to say that Roy Moore was not her divorce judge (which is consistent with her not seeing him again) – he just signed off on the dismissal of the divorce proceeding.

    At 7 minutes she is asked can she say flatly that it wass not a forgery. She says all that she can say is taht she ill allow all this to be asked and answered at the hearing about the writing.

    At 7:58: We’re not denying, we’re not admitting we’re not addresseing , we will not be distracted”

    She refuses to let anyone and anything but a Senate hearing to examine the signature (and yearbook) which she knows is not going to happen before the election.

    I can say this – the only way we’re going to get a Senate hearing is for Roy Moore to be elected.

    She studiously avoids answering the question, just as she studiously avoids answering several other questions.

    She flatly refuses to let anyone and anything but a United states Senate Commiottee hearing.

    Her excuse for a Senate hearing is that they want it done in a professional setting and that is the only setting where people can testify under oath. She dares Moore to testify under oath and claims she is withholding evidence but is ready to spring it at a hearing.

    Sammy Finkelman (02a146)

  429. 215. NJRob (17bf20) — 11/25/2017 @ 11:20 am

    The one who said Roy Moore picked her up at a location over a mile and across a highway away.

    That point is in dispute. The Washington Post ran a story about it.

    It is not settled where they lived.

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/roy-moore-campaign-refuses-to-substantiate-claims-about-accuser/2017/11/22/e9d89f20-cfa6-11e7-81bc-c55a220c8cbe_story.html

    `The campaign has claimed to have found documents that show Leigh Corfman lived more than a mile from the intersection where she said Moore picked her up for dates in 1979, when she was 14 and he was 32. She says he took her to his house and touched her inappropriately. Moore has denied knowing Corfman.

    “According to records the media has not bothered to look at, we’ve been able to find that Corfman’s supposed pickup place was almost a mile away from her mother’s house and would have been across a major thoroughfare,” Ben DuPré, a longtime aide to Moore, said at an event Tuesday in Montgomery. “This is yet another improbable fact in Leigh Corfman’s own words and story that the media has not bothered to investigate.”

    Corfman and her mother, Nancy, told The Washington Post that they lived at the time on Whittier Street in Gadsden, Ala., around the corner from Alcott Road and Riley Street, where Leigh says she met Moore.

    Nancy Corfman said she kept that address from 1974 until February 1981, when she relocated with her new husband to a house on Dogwood Circle in Gadsden, which is about a mile away across a major thoroughfare. A police report about property theft published in the Gadsden Times on March 31, 1980, listed Nancy Corfman’s address on Whittier Street.

    The Post requested documentation to support DuPré’s description of another address on Tuesday, and a spokeswoman for the Moore campaign said she would try to respond. On Wednesday morning, after another request for the information, Brett Doster, a strategist for the Moore campaign, sent an email to The Post.

    “The Washington Post is a worthless piece of crxx that has gone out of its way to railroad Roy Moore,” Doster wrote in an email he described as an “on the record” statement. “There is no need for anyone at the Washington Post to ever reach out to the Roy Moore campaign again because we will not respond to anyone from the Post now or in the future. Happy Thanksgiving.”

    DuPré claimed Tuesday that the news media had not reviewed the available legal filings at the Etowah County courthouse for the custody dispute that Leigh Corfman says led her to meet Moore in February 1979. In fact, The Post obtained and reviewed the entire case file before publishing an article on Corfman.

    DuPré described what he called four problems with Corfman’s story, including the claim of a different address. The evidence he presented did not contradict what Corfman has told The Post.

    DuPré said that court files showed that her parents were attempting to transfer custody of their daughter from the mother to the father. Second, he noted that her parents had described in legal filings concerns for their daughter’s behavior after their separation. Neither fact is in dispute, and both were known to The Post before publication. [The question of her behavior goes to Leigh Corfman’s claim in her TOODAy shwo interview taht this made her behavior bad, not the main accusation. SF]

    DuPré also pointed to a Breitbart story that quoted Corfman’s mother saying there was no phone in her daughter’s room in 1979. Both Leigh Corfman and her mother have said they had a phone on a long cord in the hallway that could be brought into the daughter’s room, where the younger Corfman says she spoke with Moore.

    A long extension that could be pulled into her room? That sounds like an attempt to reconcile different claims. In any case they ahgve an answer for it.

    Now taht telephone number wass probably listed asnd probably contained an address. The court files should also. But I wouldn’t put it above any [eople organzieing aframe-up to provide the Moore campaign with a false defense.

    Sammy Finkelman (02a146)

  430. 459

    ….and that is why Moore is still in the running. Most people are not criminal trial lawyers and saw Allred’s evasiveness in the Blitzer interview as not being truthful & the yearbook and accusations as a forgery & lies.

    any discussion is all mute now anyways….right on cue the establishment Republicans send in a cannonball candidate to insure Moore and the seat go Democrat. Moore has obviously beat the smear campaign or this guy wouldn’t have jump in.

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/retired-marine-colonel-to-launch-alabama-senate-write-in-campaign/2017/11/27/08816f4c-d394-11e7-9461-ba77d604373d_story.html?utm_term=.603510cec495

    all the very best.

    Where Eagles Dare (30c9de)

  431. 464. Moore should run commercials that the only way to get a Senate hearing is to elect him.

    The New York Times reported that discussions were being held in Washington.

    Mr. McConnell and his allies have believed for weeks that disaster awaits, win or lose, if Mr. Moore remains in the race: Either the Democrats will claim the seat on Dec. 12, or Mr. Moore will win and thrust the party into an agonizing monthslong debate over whether to expel him.

    Actually if some of the accusations are false, or if Democrats in Senate deliberately try to stretch out the onvestigation by say, refusing to look into certain things, this could hurt the Democratic Party. If this turns out to have been largely ginned up by some outfit like Fusion GPS (not them but something else) hired by some Democrats I think the whole thing could backfire. Now McConnell, at this point, obviously does not believe that.

    I don’t think they have to worry about any agenda. There’s no agenda about to pass anyway and judges and all will be confirmed anyway.

    Well, no agenda, beyond the tax bill, which is going to be done this year anyway.

    We may see with it, as with Obamacare in 2010. The House being forced to pass teh Senate bill unchanged. They’ll pass a bill in the Senate before they have to seat another Alabama Senator, but I don’t know if they have enough time to pass a conference report. When would that be expected? Do they have until December 26?

    And in any case, if they try to wait till next year, the Congressional Budget Office conclusion that repealing the individual mandate will save a lot of money will turn into a pumpkin, so it’s probably now or never even if Roy Moore gets the seat.

    McConnell had some Washington campaign lawyers with experience in Alabama electionswrite four-page memo outlining a legal avenue to block Mr. Moore’s path, but the White House counsel’s office ignored the document entirely.

    Now two private polls, commissioned by Republican groups in mid-November, found Mr. Jones leading Mr. Moore in a head-to-head election and winning handily in a three-way race.

    They got of Governor Kay Ivey postponing the election, giving some time for ann indeoendent candidate to catch on. Not sure something that is legal. They also wanted Luther Strange to resign and have anew senator appointed. Somehow that would enable a special election to be postpoined? In any case the new Senator could tehn launch a campaign.

    the idea of Luther starnge resigning

    Sammy Finkelman (02a146)

  432. They got the idea of Governor Kay Ivey postponing the election, giving some time for an indeoendent candidate to catch on. I am not sure that is something that is legal.

    They also wanted Luther Strange to resign and have anew senator appointed. Somehow that would enable a special election to be postponed?

    In any case the new Senator could then launch a campaign.

    Sammy Finkelman (02a146)

  433. 456, nk (dbc370) — 11/27/2017 @ 8:48 am

    Moment please. Have two questions:

    1. Who drew sketch of young Beverly Young?

    Toward the end of this video:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tHPOm6yIy6k

    Gloria Allred says right at 19 minutes (of 19:42) that this (she describes it as a “kind of a portrait”) was done at Six Flags, “I guess that’s Six Flags Magic Mountain” when BYN was about 16, and Beverly Young interrupts her to say “I was 16.”

    This might be done to try to prove that she had long red hair, no color pictuire of her from that time existing.

    2. Who try to get fellatio without taking penis out of pants first? Was young Miss Young supposed to stick head inside fly?

    Here I think there’s been some attempt maybe to make it sound like Roy Moore wanted fellatio, but taht is soemthing that Beverly Young Nelson either doesn’t understand or go along with. She also says that he tried to pull off her shirt and uses the word “rape.”- that that’s what she thought he wanted to do.

    She also says she had neck injuries. So this might be characterized as just an attempt to overpower her, and pushing her neck down was only part of the struggle.

    Sammy Finkelman (02a146)

  434. 438. Where Eagles Dare (8f562c) — 11/26/2017 @ 6:42 pm

    No where in any official communication with the press does the accuser or her lawyer state that what is shown in the yearbook is written by any other person(s) but Moore .

    So she’s not claiming that she r anyone else added the date and location later. But that still could be true without it all being a forgery.

    And there are at LEAST 3 different scripts

    I just see two differentl written 7’s – betwene tghe first 77 and the 7;s in 1977, and teh fact that the last two lines are handprinted. Now if they started with something real, it might make sense to not attempt to duplicate the handwriting. But someone could also have switched from script to hand-prionting as when you write adate that’s not in script. I also wonder about this word “Love”

    There’s nothing whatsoever to show (from the picture) that this was addressed to Beverly Young. And why is it necessdary, or useful to write Christmas twice? Yes, I suppose someone could have spent a long time writing in the yearbook and kept on adding things.

    I don’t see anything that shows that the Y usually was higher. A bigger problem is that the signature from the 1999 docuemnt has amiddle initial S

    Not to mention that Roy Moore NEVER used the acronym “DA” after his name. Even if he did use DA, in the late 1970s Moore was ONLY a deputy district attorney (DDA).

    And in 1999, a judge. and they say this was somebody else’s initials.

    Allred knows perfectly well the Senate will not call a special hearing for a candidate who is not even a member of the Senate and time wise it’s impossible prior to the December 12 Alabama election.

    That’s a very strong argument for electing Moore.

    Sammy Finkelman (02a146)

  435. Sammy Finkelman

    Thank you very much for all of your posts responding to mine. As you can see I am in agreement with you on a majority of what you are saying. If you do a search for Roy Moore Signature you will see the Y loops up and even crosses the R in many, if not all, of his sigs. I have seen going back to 1991 and 1994 and all the Ys loop in such a manner as to almost create his middle initial S.

    Here is one link but there are others who found or show the same discrepancies:

    http://powderedwigsociety.com/moore-signature/

    For now I see Moore has withstood the scrutiny of his past or this new write-in hitman wouldn’t have jumped in. I read he was interviewed as saying he is an independent but attended a Jones fundraiser as well as voted for Trump in the general and Kasich in the republican primary. a real “mystery man” like the CIA write in Utah against Trump. are we really surprised the establishment does the same play in Alabama against someone who is also willing to fight them tooth and nail to defend his reputation or his beliefs?

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/retired-marine-colonel-to-launch-alabama-senate-write-in-campaign/2017/11/27/08816f4c-d394-11e7-9461-ba77d604373d_story.html?utm_term=.603510cec495

    thanks again Sammy.

    Very sincerely & respectfully

    Where Eagles Dare (30c9de)

  436. Where Eagles Dare (30c9de) — 11/27/2017 @ 1:44 pm

    Here is one link but there are others who found or show the same discrepancies:

    http://powderedwigsociety.com/moore-signature/

    That website claims that Roy Moore yearbook signature is an even sloppier forgery than Barack Hussein’s birth certificate. But that’s not a forgery, even though the document published by the Obama White House was printed on April 25, 2011 and clearly says so.

    http://www.syracuse.com/news/index.ssf/2011/04/white_house_releases_obama_bir.html

    The websites claiming forgery don’t show the whole document with the April 25, 2011 date stamp.

    Everything about it screams out truth, including his mother first signing her name as Ann only, and having toi wroite Stanley above the Ann. Consistent with that, the date of the signatre of thr attendant is one day later tahn taht oif Ann and it wasn;’ta cceopted until Aug 8, 1961 (obviously it had been declined at first)

    Also he’s Barack Hussein Obama II, and his father’s race is :African.” gthis would not have been invented.

    With Roy Moore, the y does NOT cross the R in his 7/24/2017 signature – that’s a HUGE capital S.

    I don’t think the campaign of Lee Busby means anything, except tat it will absolutely prevent anybody else from winning as aa write-in.

    Sammy Finkelman (02a146)

  437. @462 Sammy. Frankly (and no offense intended) a large part of your problem is that you don’t see the simplest things, and then you tend to run on and on about the hypothetical this and the speculative “unanswered” that.

    That said, I don’t take issue with the majority of what you posted at 462 (It seems relatively unobjectionable, but frankly I just skimmed it, so I’m not vouching for it.).

    My initial comment here is both a general one – my general impression after reading dozens upon dozens of your story-book posts – but also because you seem ofen to exhibit a general failure to exercise simple common sense – and this tendency of yours is evidenced in your post at 462 where you write:

    459. Q! (86710c) — 11/27/2017 @ 9:10 am
    E.g., Blitzer/Allred clip of @ 11.15.
    The YOUTube video only goes up to 10:48

    Apparently it did not even occur to you that when I wrote E.g., Blitzer/Allred clip of @ 11.15 I was identifying the clip, and its (approximate) date (i.e., posted to Youtube on 11.15; when the show aired, I have no idea – though I assume on the 14th or 15th)

    Moreover, this tendency of yours not to see the simplest things is almost always seems to run in favor of Moore, notwithstanding the occasional doubt you mention as regards the problems with this or that piece of evidence (or speculation) about Nelson’s account.

    One would think that, were you actually being even-handed, you would note and comment something along the lines of the following:

    Of course, it should be an easy matter for Judge Moore to offer convincing proof that the (main body) of the inscription is a forgery: all he needs to do is provide a short (paragraph-length) and reasonably uncontestable exemplar of his handwriting from the era in question (mid-70s – mid-80s), and absent divine intervention, that sample should differ in numerous obvious ways from the year book inscription. In other words, how in God’s name could Nelson have accurately replicated/forged the inscription? That Moore has not made any such tender or proffer almost has to be taken as compelling evidence against him, and evidence that the yearbook inscription is not a forgery.

    But. You never seem to argue, or suggest in lines favoring Nelson. Your choice. Obviously.

    Myself, I imagine WaPo and other outlets are searching for exemplars of Moore’s handwriting of the era. One obvious place to look is in Court records, though the potential pickings seem not terribly promising. While one wouldn’t expect much of Judge Moore’s handwriting to appear there, every once and a while a judge will cross out some typewritten material, and write in a change (as on proposed orders, submitted by counsel; I assume w/o knowing that this happens from time to time in Alabama as well). Perhaps such (hypothesized) investigations might bear some fruit worth the picking (though these interlineations tend to be quite brief), or perhaps there are better sources out there. And perhaps such investigations will come to play a role in the election outcome. Who can tell?

    But, whether or not any investigative digging turns up anything of note, the present failure of Moore to produce such a writing which would convincingly show that the “money shot” portion of the yearbook inscription is clearly a forgery . . . well, that’s pretty telling, in itself.

    Q! (86710c)

  438. 470

    Sammy

    The Obama crap on that site doesn’t interest me. Sorry for the distraction but I don’t doubt Obama’s birth certificate (new version or older one). Thats a horse of another color already decided. I only sent you the link for the Moore comparison which show dozens of discrepancies, some I noticed on my own and others that I better understood once I read the analysis.

    “With Roy Moore, the y does NOT cross the R in his 7/24/2017 signature – that’s a HUGE capital S.”

    Not sure what you mean. In the Roy Moore signature, the y DOES cross the R in his 7/24/2017 signature – It is HUGE capital-looking S. I am looking at the entire document at that link right now. The y becomes this loop that extends & crosses the R almost looking like an S.

    Here is a link that says the year book sig is NOT a forgery yet I can see differences:

    http://americablog.com/2017/11/yearbook-signature-roy-moores.html

    and this by Moore’s lawyer:

    http://www.al.com/news/index.ssf/2017/11/roy_moore_lawyer_to_speak_at_a.html

    and a bunch of Moore signature examples here with all kinds of opinions about yearbook signature, pro & con (the one with the circuit court stamp is from 1994 put the stamped date is not shown. I have seen the same one with 1994 on it but cant find it right now. MSNBC had it on TV but I cant find a good screen capture of it

    https://www.metabunk.org/roy-moore-yearbook-signature-faked.t9252/

    The beauty & madness of the web.

    All the very best.

    Where Eagles Dare (30c9de)

  439. 471 Q! (86710c) — 11/27/2017 @ 3:24 pm

    459. Q! (86710c) — 11/27/2017 @ 9:10 am
    E.g., Blitzer/Allred clip of @ 11.15.
    The YOUTube video only goes up to 10:48

    Apparently it did not even occur to you that when I wrote E.g., Blitzer/Allred clip of @ 11.15 I was identifying the clip, and its (approximate) date (i.e., posted to Youtube on 11.15; when the show aired, I have no idea – though I assume on the 14th or 15th)

    That’s right. It didn’t. I didn’t know what it meant. But usually when citing videos and mentioning at something it means at that point in minutes and seconds on the video.

    Looking more carefully, you wrote “of”

    I still don’t know what the @ is doing there. I disregarded the “of” maybe because I read it too quickly.

    I also don’t notice dates on You Tube videos.

    I should have assumed, maybe, that you weren’t being so wrong, and that what you wrote actually had to make sense, so if I thought it was a time on the video, and that was after the last second on the video, that wasn’t what it could mean. I assumed carelessness and that it was an error in your note-taking or typing or maybe the wrong video. But I did check a little, and the video turned out to contain what you apparently were referring to, and I told you where it really was on the video (if that was what you meant) I assumed that somehow you entered “11” when you meant “7” and no, I couldn’t figure out how such a mistake could be made, but I assumed it could happen in a way that I couldn’t figure out. I also didn’t notice, or overlooked, that following the “11” was not a colon, but a period, but that’s a legitimate style, although I think it is English (as in Great Britain) but somebody anywhere could use it.

    This is also a failure of communication on your part.

    Video of @ 11.15 ??

    Sammy Finkelman (c31643)

  440. these honey boo boos have zero credibility Mr. Eagles

    this is why nobody believes their stupid lies

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  441. Moreover, this tendency of yours not to see the simplest things is almost always seems to run in favor of Moore, notwithstanding the occasional doubt you mention as regards the problems with this or that piece of evidence (or speculation) about Nelson’s account.

    There are some problems with Moore’s defense, and with what his defenders say. A problem wtith Nelson;s account is something in favor of Moore.

    When I first mentioned the problem with Corfman’s address, I did not state it as fact – I stated on;y that’s what Breitbart said came from Dupre, and I think I said some words about this being important. I later corrected someone who stated that as fact because I wasn’t sure this was right. It would be too easy. It shouldn’t be that easy, unless it is something someone overlooked.

    I thought there needed to be some checking to see if that was really true and that’s why I was so ready to pick up on the Washington Post saying that address was not her address in 1979. But I do think the Washington Post should have clearer proof of the address in 1977. They don’t need a police report from 1980. (that might go to, perhaps, how late she was living there, but we want to know how early)

    Sammy Finkelman (c31643)

  442. One would think that, were you actually being even-handed, you would note and comment something along the lines of the following:

    Of course, it should be an easy matter for Judge Moore to offer convincing proof that the (main body) of the inscription is a forgery: all he needs to do is provide a short (paragraph-length) and reasonably uncontestable exemplar of his handwriting from the era in question (mid-70s – mid-80s), and absent divine intervention, that sample should differ in numerous obvious ways from the year book inscription. In other words, how in God’s name could Nelson have accurately replicated/forged the inscription? That Moore has not made any such tender or proffer almost has to be taken as compelling evidence against him, and evidence that the yearbook inscription is not a forgery.

    That’s because that is irrelevant.

    Moore himself, or someone supporting him released what is supposed to be a signature or a stamped signature of the judge in 1999.

    It really did resemble his signature on a divorce document from 1999, all the way down to the DA, which definitely did not mean District Attorney on the divorce papers (assuming that really is the signature from the 1999 divorce document.)

    There are other ways of forging things other than painstakingly copying something out by hand. So of course I didn’t say Roy Moore should provide a sample of his handwriting. We already know it is similar. He, or smeone acting on his behalf, already did! (in an attempt to argue that Beverly Young Nelson was lying when she says she never saw Roy Moore again, and also to make a stupid and wrong argument that her motive was revenge for refusing her divorce, which he couldn’t do anyway. The counterargument to the claim that her case came up before Judge Roy Moore is that he signed it on;y in his capacity as supervising judge, and it would not have been necessary for her to see him, and it was only to acknowledge she was wirhdrawing her divorce petition. See, I know a lot about this (but not all) I don’t know if any of that is true. I don’t know if that signature, complete with the letters DA, really came from a divorce court paper.

    The forgery could be done by photoshop, and printing it out and taking a photograph of the result.

    I also thought maybe Roy Moore did sign that or sign something somewhere like that and the forgery was adding things to it. We still don’t know that there’s any physical June 1977 yearbook with any of that in it. I know that would be Gloria Allred pulling a big bluff, but almost anything is possible in this case, and maybe her bluff won’t be called. And she can say she never actually saw the yearbook herself, only the pictures Beverly Young Nelson provided.

    Sammy Finkelman (c31643)

  443. There’s a lot of peculiar things here, far too much for anything to be taken at face value.

    There’s the letters DA after Roy Moore’s name, which can’t mean District Attorney, not in 1977 and not in 1999; the claim stated in 2017 as fact by Beverly Young Nelson and by Gloria Allred, that Roy Moore was the district attorney of Etowah County in 1977 when BYN should have discovered long ago in the course of numerous discussions with her sister over the years, that that was untrue; the two DIFFERENT misspellings of the name of the County, as “Etiwah” and “Elowah”, in the written statement that Gloria Allred put out; and now I saw the claim, which sounds very reasonable and plausible, that the name of restaurant is misspelled in the inscription!

    That it is not supposed to be “Olde Hickory House” but :Old Hickory House.”

    Now the thing about a lot of that is that it should be possible for it to checked out. The major media hasn’t even yet figured out taht he was NEVER the District Attorney of Etowah County, and that Gkloria Allred handed them adocument with two misspellings of proper names.

    So, now, was it “Olde Hickory House” or was it “Old Hickory House?”

    Sammy Finkelman (c31643)

  444. @476 That’s because that is irrelevant.

    I am gobsmacked that you (or anyone) would say that. Obviously the greater the writing sample, the smaller the chance any person can successfully imitate/forge it. Double down on that the smaller the “known data base” is (here a mere signature, and signatures themselves tend to be idiosyncratic vis-a-vis a person’s normal cursive).

    How on earth could Nelson (or you or your English teacher or my grandmother) even hope to render a version of the main body of the yearbook inscription which was even remotely similar to what Moore would have written? 15 “words”, not counting the signature itself. Dozens of letters and concatenations, in a unique hand. Assuming that she/you/they had an exemplar of Moore’s signature as a “base” to work off of.

    I am confident that neither I nor any other human could write that inscription in a reasonable approximation of your hand, Sammy, knowing just your signature (although the length & complexity of what I imagine your signature to be is a particularly rich data-bed). Just as I am confident that you could not write the inscription in any reasonable approximation of my hand if all you knew of my writing was my signature.

    All this balderdash and supposedly informed judgment which ignores 80 percent or more of the alleged forgery is absurd, frankly.

    Q! (86710c)

  445. http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/453723/roy-moore-allegations-hickory-house-restaurant-dispute

    It notes he claim by Kayla Moore that it was established in 2001 (elsewhere reported contradicted by old ads etc)

    It says that, therw are listing for a restaurant called Old Hickory House Bar B Que – no added “e” – at 1715 US 431 (the same as East Meighan Boulevard) that say it was establoshed in 2001. The telephone number is disconnected and the restaurant may be closed.

    But a reporter for AL.com found an old 1978 city directory that lists an Olde Hickory House at 305 East Meighan Blvd.

    See: https://twitter.com/billineastala/status/930480416364158976/photo/1

    He says the site now has Rally’s.

    The listing actually says: Olde Hickory House The (D E Locklear) restr 305 E Meighan Blvd

    He also found an ad on page 21, of the Gadsden Times, Jan. 2, 1978:

    https://twitter.com/billineastala/status/930519160123248640

    It spells it THE “OLDE” HICKORY HOUSE with I guess are supposed to be hickory sticks. The “O”‘s are shaped like a diamond, and the letter “T” of “THE” is chopped off in the enlargement.

    But it gives yet another address: 207 Meighan Blvd, and the store hours are described as 6 a.m to 11 p.m. That contradicts Beverly Young Nelson’s claim it closed at 10 p.m., but she could have been mistaken or lied about when it closed, and/or the hours might have been changed after the new year.

    As for the address:

    mThornton‏
    @billineastala

    Addendum: some have noted difference in address from city directory. City of Gadsden officials say address changes for 911 dispatching would account.

    See also this tweet:

    Replying to @LStaxServices

    City of Gadsden says streets were renumbered about that time for 911 dispatching.
    1:56 PM – 15 Nov 2017

    You mean all the addresss were changed? Which one is earlier?

    Sammy Finkelman (9668e6)

  446. Sammy

    Great research on the restaurant.

    at the following link is another example of Moore’s sig in 1994 when he was a circuit court judge.

    http://knowyourmeme.com/photos/1315389-roy-moore-sexual-misconduct-allegations

    The Moore I see the 1977 sig the more I agree with someone who wrote it looks like it is a sig from a guy named Ray and she added all the other writing. The angle of the lettering from Moore and after that, are at a different angle than the paragraph and the Ray /Roy name.

    on this link:

    https://www.metabunk.org/roy-moore-yearbook-signature-faked.t9252/

    I posted earlier there is other lettering that shows the body of the inscription in the year book also doesn’t match up with other lettering Moore has produced. So even in larger samples there are more discrepancies, not to mention the Olde Hickory stuff DOESNT match ANY of the other lettering at all.

    clearly a forgery in my opinion.

    very best

    Where Eagles Dare (8f562c)

  447. @476 That’s because that is irrelevant.

    478. Q! (86710c) — 11/27/2017 @ 7:38 pm

    I am gobsmacked that you (or anyone) would say that. Obviously the greater the writing sample, the smaller the chance any person can successfully imitate/forge it.

    The signature matches it. In fact it matche it too well, with the DA. Anything more wouldn’t mean anything. No person writes his signature the exact same way two time.

    What somebody needs to do is look at the yearbook. They don’t need more samples of Roy Moore’s signature. But you can sometimes look at a signature that is in question and see if it has been written too carefully.

    How on earth could Nelson (or you or your English teacher or my grandmother) even hope to render a version of the main body of the yearbook inscription which was even remotely similar to what Moore would have written? 15 “words”, not counting the signature itself. Dozens of letters and concatenations, in a unique hand. Assuming that she/you/they had an exemplar of Moore’s signature as a “base” to work off of.

    The biggest thing anyone needs to look at the yearbook. True, if Roy Moore was found to write some letters significantly differently that would also tend to show forgery. Maybe Moore had no peculiar way of writing a capital L, tht was different from what is seen there, let’s say. Could be aso someone had larger sample.

    All this balderdash and supposedly informed judgment which ignores 80 percent or more of the alleged forgery is absurd, frankly.

    It is possible also that some of it is not a forgery, but Roy Moore wrote parts of it somewhere, and it was added to.

    The biggest candidate for being a forgery are the dates and the line “Olde Hickory House” both handwriten, which could be an attempt to connect it to BYN, while avoiding detection of forgery, if the rest was genuine.

    The possible wrong name really sounded strong although that appears to be the real name of a restaurant, after all. Why somebody decided to call it “Olde” remains a mystery. Maybe there was another place called “Old Hickory.”

    Sammy Finkelman (9668e6)

  448. 480. Where Eagles Dare (8f562c) — 11/27/2017 @ 8:07 pm

    Great research on the restaurant.

    It was just Google with the right search terms and following up a link or two. Probably more can be forced out of Google.

    Now we need some map or picture that should establish whether there was a exit from the parking lot to the next street or not. Also, if there was only one restaurant and it didn’t change location. The Post Office would also know or would have known about address changes. The restaurant in 2001 is probably a different one from the one in 1977-78.

    at the following link is another example of Moore’s sig in 1994 when he was a circuit court judge.

    http://knowyourmeme.com/photos/1315389-roy-moore-sexual-misconduct-allegations

    The Moore I see the 1977 sig the more I agree with someone who wrote it looks like it is a sig from a guy named Ray and she added all the other writing.

    It looks exactly like Roy Moore’s later signatures. The difference in that the R now extends all the way past the “y” later could be explained by changes over time in the way somebody writes. Ad wouldn’t it be a coincidence to have someone named “Ray” You could also get something that “Roy Moore” signed.

    The angle of the lettering from Moore and after that, are at a different angle than the paragraph and the Ray /Roy name.

    on this link:

    https://www.metabunk.org/roy-moore-yearbook-signature-faked.t9252/

    There’s no difference in the angle between :”Roy” and “Moore” Theer’s a difference between “Love,” and what follows. The color difference here is explained(as an accident?) by the camera. I’d say somebody at a news organization caused that. Differences might be attributed to the white balance setting or the color of the pixels around the writing. The whole thing was in black and white.

    This shows how different news organizations reproduced that:

    https://www.metabunk.org/explained-roy-moore-two-color-yearbook-signature-depth-of-field-chromatic-aberration.t9253/

    I’ll tell you what bothers me. The top of the building is chopped off. I don’t know if anybody would print anything like that. It could be somebody pasted or attached a piece of paper to the yearbook page.

    The Olde Hickory writing could be explained by somebody continuing to print once they had printed the date, but it could also be explained by someone not havingthe confidence in their ability to forge the handwriting, which would mean the handwriting up to Love, Roy Moore DA would be genuine, or photoshopped from something genuine.

    The two different forms of the “7” are also interesting. Maybe one is genuine (at least taken from something genuine) and one is fake. But people sometimes do have two styles.

    Sammy Finkelman (9668e6)

  449. Sammy

    “Theer’s a difference between “Love,” and what follows.”

    you are right & i agree with you! Its everything before Love that different! I couldn’t make out where the break was exactly but it seems like it shifted about there.

    “The Olde Hickory writing could be explained by somebody continuing to print once they had printed the date, but it could also be explained by someone not havingthe confidence in their ability to forge the handwriting, which would mean the handwriting up to Love, Roy Moore DA would be genuine, or photoshopped from something genuine.”

    good points but I agreed with an earlier post you made that the DA was never used by Moore. It was used by an admin person of his with those initials. and he was never a DA in 1977.

    To me, I have not seen any sample of Moore’s writing that matches the dashed date or the old hickery house. None of his number/date samples have that rounded form of numbers or letters. Those little serifs on the twos & sevens doesn’t show up anywhere. That is written by a completely different person than the rest. I would bet $1000 on it and i only bet on a sure thing. I even feel the date and the restaurant name are by 2 different people. Thats why i also mentioned it felt more like 3-4 different types of writing on the yearbook. then again maybe only 2. Comme-ci-comme-a

    very best & good night.

    Where Eagles Dare (8f562c)

  450. WED
    I think you shouldn’t focus on the yearbook forgery. Even if it was forged, the basic accusation is not disproved. And the forgery is not so obvious as you seem to think. Assuming it was forged, an ancillary question is of course who did it.

    Moore found three witnesses who directly contradict Nelson in detail and in the basic story (they say Moore was not a regular customer and Nelson never worked there). I don’t know of any reason to to not accept their statements. If they are not lying, Nelson is, and the yearbook is proved to be a forgery.

    I linked to these witnesses back at comment 444.

    kishnevi (948a4d)

  451. @484 In addition to the Moore campaign’s press release you linked to (regurgitated in the press), see this (Nov. 27) — a follow-up on this, a Nov. 20 interview and piece on one of the women (Ledbetter) touted in the campaign press release.

    The latest report (above (Nov. 27)) has several women disputing Ledbetter’s account. One was a waitress at the Olde Hickory House back in the day and the other was there several times a week to pick up her sister who worked there (this gal worked across the street, so perhaps she was there other times as well, when not picking up her sister). This is all back in 1977 range (well, the report has at least one gal tying down the era, as I recall). They both said Moore was a regular there then – a frequent customer who they saw there frequently.

    (It will be recalled that the Moore campaign’s position was that Moore was never a regular there, and proffered Ledbetter (and others) in supposed support thereof. Of course, the absence of evidence is not, as a rule, evidence of absence.)

    Q! (86710c)

  452. 485

    This all just shows why a statute of limitations is a good idea. People don’t remember things very well that happened 40 years ago. This is why I am reluctant to give much weight to accusations about things that happened long ago.

    James B. Shearer (951d11)

  453. @486 statutes of limitations are an excellent idea, I agree, and the reason you cite is one reason why. That said, neither Nelson nor these 2 other (conservative) gals seem to have any problem in recalling that Moore was a regular at the Olde Hickory House back in the day. Which is believable and unremarkable. Indeed, the only remarkable aspect of it is that it puts the lie to the word of a candidate running for Senate.

    Q! (86710c)

  454. Re: the name Olde Hickory House.

    I was a little cautious but I should have been more cautious. I knew this was not mentioned in the Facebook post/press release issued by Hannah Ford of the Moore campaign on Monday, November 27.
    (https://www.facebook.com/JudgeRoyMoore/posts/704454039752830 and @444/484 kishnevi linked to a WKRG News 5 story, or is it WIAT?) story that reposted the entire press release)

    If they talked to someone who was really in the Olde Hickory House, and the name was actually Old Hickory house, they would know it, and it’s not mentioned. that the Moore campaign had not used it was avery important point, and i shouldn’t have laid it aside..

    I thought maybe they overlooked it somehow, or maybe it wss new, although it shouldn’t have been a new claim since they talked to people who were there.

    I knew that Kayla Moore had made an accusation that the restaurant opened only for the first time in 2001, but I had read newspaper advertisements and listings had been found showing it existed in 1977. And that claim was gone.

    i had read this claim, in a web site about forgery that i didn’t accept, that the name was Old Hickory house. This was a nice solid claim, EITHER TRUE OR NOT, and probably checkable, and befre checking, the name made more sense without the e.

    What I did NOT kjnow was thAt both claims were the same: Kayla Moore had claimed both that the restaurant only opened in 2001 AND that the name was really Old Hickory house (without the e)

    The people debunking her didn’t bother mentioning that. They didn’t bother mentioning that the 2001 restaurant almost certainly had no connection to the 1977 restaurant, and didn’t even have the same exact name.

    I also did not know for sure that this was a claim that pre-dated November 20.

    The question then comes up why is the extra “e” there? My guess would be to avoid a trademark violation. Which means there was another restaurant, or a restaurant chain called Old Hickory House.

    Indeed there was.

    There was an Old Hickory House in Tucker Georgia near Atlanta

    https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:6og6DCwfYEAJ:https://www.facebook.com/pages/Old-Hickory-House/141677265871484+&cd=3&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us

    Carolyn Scruggs — 5 starI have dined at Old Hickory House since the 1980’s. This is the last one standing. Everything they cook is delicious including their fried green tomatos! It’s worth the drive because you will love it!

    about 5 months ago · 2 Reviews ·

    Sounds like a chain that existed in the 1980s, and maybe the 1970s therefore. “Last one standing.”

    The website for oldhickoryhouse is down now maybe because of all of this or maybe before.

    From the look of that January 2, 1978 ad it looks like someone went to great lengths to justify the Olde Hickory name.

    I had thought maybe somebody changed the name to prevent people from looking it up, like the spelling of the name of the county was changed in Gloria Allred’s release of the statement of Beverly Young Nelson (the “error” is definitely hers, ir t asppeared in a number of news outlets)

    Sammy Finkelman (02a146)

  455. Oh – it looks like there’s trademark for “Old Hickory House” without the “e” with a design taht looks like the design (hickory sticks) in that ad.

    It was issued though, on Wednesday, August 16, 1978.

    https://www.trademarkia.com/old-hickory-house-73183578.html

    So is it the same people, and did they drop the “E” in 1978? Or different people to prevent the competition from trading on their name? Or no connection?

    On Wednesday, August 16, 1978, a U.S. federal trademark registration was filed for OLD HICKORY HOUSE by OLD HICKORY HOUSE PROPERTIES, INC., ATLANTA 30305. The USPTO has given the OLD HICKORY HOUSE trademark serial number of 73183578. The current federal status of this trademark filing is CONTINUED USE NOT FILED WITHIN GRACE PERIOD, UN-REVIVABLE. The correspondent listed for OLD HICKORY HOUSE is Julius R. Lunsford, Jr. of Hurt, Richardson, 1100 Harris Tower, Peachtree Center, 233 Peachtree St., NE. Atlanta GA 30043 . The OLD HICKORY HOUSE trademark is filed in the category of Computer & Software Services & Scientific Services . The description provided to the USPTO for OLD HICKORY HOUSE is Restaurant Services.

    CONTINUED USE NOT FILED WITHIN GRACE PERIOD, UN-REVIVABLE

    8/24/2002

    Sammy Finkelman (02a146)

  456. Newsmax claims the restaurant in Tucker, Georgia opened up in 1977.

    https://www.newsmax.com/Politics/roy-moore-sexual-misconduct-harassment-alabama/2017/11/14/id/826145/

    Here’s teh January 9, 1978 ad for olde Hickory house in Gadsden.

    https://twitter.com/billineastala/status/930563016533401600/photo/1

    Click on the photo to see the full ad.

    The restaurant again advertises its hours as from 6 A.M. to 11 P.M. states it is open seven days.

    11 P.M. is what Rhonda Ledbetter, not Beverly Young Nelson said. Caveat: BYN was maybe talking about December, and she could ahve made amistake about when her shift ended or lied, either about that or about that being when teh restauarant closed, without the whole thing being alie.

    One comment:

    Janet Morris‏
    @janersm · Nov 15

    My dad said it smelled amazing and was said to have been the best barbecue in Gadsden. He worked across the street from it in the late 70s/early 80s.

    Sammy Finkelman (02a146)

  457. 485. Q! (86710c) — 11/27/2017 @ 10:38 pm

    http://whnt.com/2017/11/27/olde-hickory-house-restaurant-worker-says-roy-moore-was-a-regular/

    has several women disputing Ledbetter’s account. One was a waitress at the Olde Hickory House back in the day and the other was there several times a week to pick up her sister who worked there (this gal worked across the street, so perhaps she was there other times as well, when not picking up her sister).

    The alleged waitress has no name or face and WHNT doesn’t say waht they ddi to check taht she was teling the truth. The one who says she went there to pick up her sister, says she was 17 years old at the tiem. Neitgehr apaprently says they knew either know Rhonda Ledbetter or the accuser Beverly Young Nelson. Joan says she saw Moore several times a week. Can’t they cntact her sister?

    It’s inconclusive.

    This is all back in 1977 range (well, the report has at least one gal tying down the era, as I recall). They both said Moore was a regular there then – a frequent customer who they saw there frequently.

    (It will be recalled that the Moore campaign’s position was that Moore was never a regular there, and proffered Ledbetter (and others) in supposed support thereof. Of course, the absence of evidence is not, as a rule, evidence of absence.)

    Sammy Finkelman (02a146)

  458. someone said soemwhere – can’t get it when I click:

    “Olde Hickory House, address 305 East Meighan Blvd, Gadsden, AL Google Earth appears to have the building in the 1997 Historical…” Comment by Jota_

    Sammy Finkelman (02a146)

  459. 484. kishnevi (948a4d) — 11/27/2017 @ 9:51 pm

    WED

    I think you shouldn’t focus on the yearbook forgery. Even if it was forged, the basic accusation is not disproved.

    It is vice versa. It is kind of necessary for it to be some sort of a forgery if she her basic story is untrue. The yearbook is brought in to

    1) Show she is not making a mistake as to who it was/

    2) Prove Roy Moore was there.

    And the forgery is not so obvious as you seem to think.

    It is not obvious in the wys people are claiming. But were people to see the actual yearbook, it might turn out to be a transparent forgery. We don’t even know if that yearbook is hers, or from June 1977. We don;t know if different inks are used or not. Nothing. We don’t know if some piece of paper was attached to the yearbook or not.

    Assuming it was forged, an ancillary question is of course who did it.

    Probably not Beverly Young Nelson all by herself or with assistance of members of her family.

    Gloria Allred claims Beverly Young Nelson claims she was inspired to coem forward by the Washington Post story and BYN also indicates her decision postdated that. Onlyy 4 days elapsed between the WP story and BYN. Could all this have happened if there was no connection between her and the 4 previous women? We really need to know all of these things as to how this became public, but the Washington Post will be of no help, except if it’s James O’Keefe or some pro-Moore or anti-Washington Post organization trying to trap them. We need to know if any anti-Moore stories failed to be verified, especially before the first story came out.

    Moore found three witnesses who directly contradict Nelson in detail and in the basic story (they say Moore was not a regular customer and Nelson never worked there). I don’t know of any reason to to not accept their statements. If they are not lying, Nelson is,

    They don’t all strictly contradict her. It;s been proven now by 1978 ads, that BYN was wrong about the closing hour, although Rhonda Ledbetter was maybe also wrong, saying she thought it was midnight but it was at least 11 pm because the Goodyear place next door closed at 10 and the workers came over to eat. There’s another big issue about whether the parking lot had an exit to the back. Or where the dumpsters were. Or whether it was lighted. Or whether Roy Moore would have stood out if he was wearing a suit. Or whether he could really have stayed there till closing and come to work the next day on time. Or why he would not drive far away for the rape. Or how BYN expected to call her boyfriend when she got home if he didn’t have a cellphone either

    So far nobody has placed BYN at the Olde Hickory House, although two anonymous people claim to have placed Moore there. BYN has not been asked to name other people who worked there,

    A good question to ask people would be to expand on the probable trademark war between the Old Hickory House chain in Georgia and the Olde Hickory House in Gadsden, Alabama. Someone who worked there two or three years should maybe know something about it.

    Sammy Finkelman (e3cf91)

  460. “I think you shouldn’t focus on the yearbook forgery. Even if it was forged, the basic accusation is not disproved. ”

    but how is the basic “accusation” true?

    it seems that we are back to the salem witch trial litmus test scenerio:

    accuser: “you’re a witch!”

    accused: “no I am not”

    accuser: “prove it!”

    accused: “I deny it”

    accuser: “I don’t believe you!”

    accused: “how can I convince you?”

    accuser: “throw yourself in deep water and if you drown you are innocent…”

    accused: “…and if I can swim?”

    accuser” “…you are guilty, of course, and will be summarily executed by the state in front of a cheering & gleeful populace…”

    accused: “?”

    accused: “???”

    “….grand juries indicted George Burroughs, Mary Eastey, Martha Corey and George Jacobs, Sr.. Trial juries convicted Martha Carrier, George Jacobs, Sr., George Burroughs, John Willard, Elizabeth Proctor, and John Proctor. Elizabeth Proctor was given a temporary stay of execution because she was pregnant. On August 19, 1692, Martha Carrier, George Jacobs Sr., George Burroughs, John Willard, and John Proctor were executed.”

    “Mr. Burroughs was carried in a Cart with others, through the streets of Salem, to Execution. When he was upon the Ladder, he made a speech for the clearing of his Innocency, with such Solemn and Serious Expressions as were to the Admiration of all present; his Prayer (which he concluded by repeating the Lord’s Prayer) [as witches were not supposed to be able to recite] was so well worded, and uttered with such composedness as such fervency of spirit, as was very Affecting, and drew Tears from many, so that if seemed to some that the spectators would hinder the execution. The accusers said the black Man [Devil] stood and dictated to him. As soon as he was turned off [hanged], Mr. Cotton Mather, being mounted upon a Horse, addressed himself to the People, partly to declare that he [Mr. Burroughs] was no ordained Minister, partly to possess the People of his guilt, saying that the devil often had been transformed into the Angel of Light. And this did somewhat appease the People, and the Executions went on; when he [Mr. Burroughs] was cut down, he was dragged by a Halter to a Hole, or Grave, between the Rocks, about two feet deep; his Shirt and Breeches being pulled off, and an old pair of Trousers of one Executed put on his lower parts: he was so put in, together with Willard and Carrier, that one of his Hands, and his Chin, and a Foot of one of them, was left uncovered.”

    by Robert Calef, More Wonders of the Invisible World, 1700.

    …the more things change the more they stay the same….go figure.

    Where Eagles Dare (30c9de)

  461. Reported this September in the Gadsden Times:

    http://www.gadsdentimes.com/news/20170927/cdc-etowah-county-no-1-in-stds

    CDC: Etowah County No. 1 in STDs

    Etowah County had the highest per-capita rates of chlamydia and gonorrhea in the United States in 2016, according to a Center for Disease Control STD surveillance report released Tuesday.

    According to the study, Etowah County had 4,219 reported cases of chlamydia per 100,000 members of the population which would equate to one diagnosis in every 24 people.

    The CDC noted 1,778 reported cases of gonorrhea per 100,000 population members, which would equate to one diagnosis in every 58 people. Statistics were collected from both clinic and non-clinic sources, according to the report.

    Rates are reported annually.

    Sammy Finkelman (e70ce9)

  462. 495

    Sammy

    …and your point is….?

    to play the devils advocate, what was the rate in 1977?

    so as a devil’s advocate could I surmise that due to high STD rates in 2016, they would validate forging documents and falsely accusing someone of pedophile rape in 1977?

    for many years prior to 2016 its been counties in California and other states. I could see if its been the last 2 decades.

    Also, people have used these stats to also show certain demographic groups of people have higher rates of STDs (or certain STDs) than others. Does that mean they also have higher rates of raping others?

    just saying 😉

    Respectfully

    Where Eagles Dare (30c9de)

  463. Mr. Dare std rates had come up here before

    i think i remember Alaska scoring very highly, along with the deep south states

    seemed mostly to correlate with median hhi more than anything if i remember right

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  464. 497

    Thanks very much happyfeet.

    It’s kind of a relative subjective post. I live in the NYC metro area and certain STDs are a lot higher than others:

    “Where the South didn’t have the highest rate of infection is concerning AIDs, which is most common in the Northeast states of Maryland and New York.”

    same for each type of other STD. It varies from state to state and region. Also the amount & size of universities is listed as a possibly factor as well.

    http://www.medicaldaily.com/std-hotspots-america-which-states-are-most-affected-chlamydia-gonorrhea-and-aids-270761

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2254609/Heat-map-reveals-highest-rates-STDs-occur-U-S–South.html#ixzz4zvl8bt30

    I am just not sure how it all fits into this discussion….

    Where Eagles Dare (30c9de)

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