Patterico's Pontifications

11/9/2017

Pathetic Defenses Of Roy Moore Made In The Face Of Sexual Misconduct Allegations

Filed under: General — Dana @ 6:27 pm



[guest post by Dana]

Instead of just issuing an even-handed, nuts and bolts statement of, “If the allegations prove to be true, Roy Moore must step down,” some members of the GOP are eagerly defending the Republican candidate against reported allegations of sexual misconduct, and frankly, it’s not bringing out the best in them:

Alabama state auditor, Republican Jim Zeigler, bluntly told reporters he doesn’t see anything wrong with Moore’s accused behavior.

“There is nothing to see here,” Zeigler told The Washington Examiner. “The allegations are that a man in his early 30s dated teenage girls. Even the Washington Post report says that he never had sexual intercourse with any of the girls and never attempted sexual intercourse.

While Ziegler may try to convince others that there was nothing “immoral or illegal” about a 30 year old man dating teenage girls, it should be noted that Leigh Corfman claims that she was just 14 years old when Moore allegedly took off her shirt and pants and removed his clothes. He touched Inflatable football helmet tunnel her over her bra and underpants, she says, and guided her hand to touch him over his underwear. That is a far different animal than dating teenage girls.

Ziegler also inferred that because Moore didn’t have sexual intercourse with the girl and that it took place more than 40 years ago, the political fallout would be minimized. Further, he believes that the voters in Alabama will be angrier with the Washington Post for “desperately trying to get something negative” on Moore than they would be for “his dalliances with teenage girls decades ago”.

Ziegler then cited the Bible in an attempt to justify Moore’s alleged actions:

“Take the Bible. Zachariah and Elizabeth for instance. Zachariah was extremely old to marry Elizabeth and they became the parents of John the Baptist.” Ziegler added, “Also take Joseph and Mary. Mary was a teenager and Joseph was an adult carpenter. They became parents of Jesus.”

Oh FFS. Really??

Along with Ziegler’s ridiculous efforts to defend Moore, Alabama Marion County GOP chair David Hall threw in his two cents worth:

“It was 40 years ago,” Hall told Daniel Dale, a reporter for the Toronto Star. “I really don’t see the relevance of it. He was 32. She was supposedly 14. She’s not saying that anything happened other than they kissed.” He added, “The other women that they’re using to corroborate: number one, one was 19, one was 17, one was 16. There’s nothing wrong with a 30-year-old single male asking a 19-year-old, a 17-year-old, or a 16-year-old out on a date.”

Again, according to Leigh Corfman’s accusation: She was 14 years old when Moore allegedly took off her shirt and pants and removed his clothes. He touched her over her bra and underpants, she says, and guided her hand to touch him over his underwear. When Toronto Star reporter Daniel Dale pointed this out to Hall, the GOP official dismissed it:

“Well, she said he may have TRIED to. But we’re talking something that somebody SAID happened, 40 years ago. It wouldn’t affect whether or not I’d vote for him.”

There was also this from Alabama Bibb County Republican chairman Jerry Pow:

“I would vote for Judge Moore because I wouldn’t want to vote for Doug,” he says. “I’m not saying I support what he did.”

But a vote for Moore is exactly that: support for Moore.

And this:

“Yeah!” Covington County GOP Chairman William Blocker tells me he’d consider voting Moore even if hard proof of sexual abuse emerged.

“There is NO option to support to support Doug Jones, the Democratic nominee. When you do that, you are supporting the entire Democrat party.”

Finally this from Alabama Geneva County GOP chairman Riley Seibenhener, who said that “he doesn’t believe the allegations are true, but if they’re true he won’t support him – but, at the same time, it’s not “forcible rape.” Oh. Good to know. Unbelievably, he added: “I know that 14-year-olds don’t make good decisions.” If only that girl hadn’t made the bad decision to let Moore take off her top and pants, and let him touch her over her bra and underpants, and let him lead her hand to touch his genitals over his underwear, my preferred candidate wouldn’t be in the mess he’s in! And what’s that you say about the bad, very bad decisions the adult Roy Moore made? Irrelevant!

More defenses and dismissals at the link.

As it stands, the accusations are just that until proven otherwise. None of us know yet whether they’re true or not. And certainly, it wouldn’t be a surprise if this was an optimally timed, down and dirty scheme by Democrats to win an election. But, despite that, it’s pretty awful for GOP officials and local leaders to simply dismiss said accusations as irrelevant, or blame a teenage girl, or determine that even if the accusations are true they would still vote for Moore. Practically indefensible, you might say.

(Cross-posted at The Jury Talks Back.)

–Dana

310 Responses to “Pathetic Defenses Of Roy Moore Made In The Face Of Sexual Misconduct Allegations”

  1. Here we go.

    Dana (023079)

  2. Roy Moore did the right thing and through it all he’s never let go of his faith

    that’s very humbling and beautiful

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  3. also it should be noted that Leigh Corfman claims a lot of things but a penny to her name ain’t one of them

    i think this hoochie’s pretty sketch

    there’s a stench factor here for sure

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  4. Any reason you won’t post Roy Moore’s emphatic denial?

    NJRob (b00189)

  5. I posted Moore’s denial in the previous post which addressed the allegations. I said:

    Moore has denied the allegations:

    “These allegations are completely false and are a desperate political attack by the National Democrat Party and the Washington Post on this campaign,” Moore said in a statement obtained by Breitbart News.

    Separately, Moore’s campaign said in a statement, “This garbage is the very definition of fake news and intentional defamation.”

    Dana (023079)

  6. it makes you wonder if maybe the harvey bomb wasn’t set off on purpose and then orchestrated by a filthy (and broke) democrat slag like alyssa milano

    (who was coincidentally also very involved in the Jon Ossoff fiasco in Georgia)

    just to prepare the battlefield for these ridiculously sketchy unsupported and decades-old allegations by these random-assed alabama trailer trash women

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  7. I think the opposite is true, bezos Carlos slims whoever is cursed to own new York
    Magazine, covered up spacey and weinatein and then yell improbable squirrel

    narciso (d1f714)

  8. i wonder if Leigh Corfman ever shivered as she watched a roach crawl across the toe of her high-heeled shoe

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  9. None of us know yet whether they’re true or not.

    We know at least two who do: Roy Moore and Leigh Corfman.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  10. The county politicos are at least honest: party loyalty comes before anything else. The others remind me of a certain presidential candidate who suggested he could shoot someone in broad daylight on Fifth Avenue and suffer no voter backlash… Good thing Ziegler doesn’t know the Rabbinic midrash which teaches that when they first married Isaac was forty and Rebecca three (they waited ten years to consummate the marriage).

    kishnevi (0dce2b)

  11. Would you feel better if the girl was called F**kabee? That has been portrayed as defensible criticism of people unrelated to the context of the original Kelly/Huckabee insult.

    BuDuh (81c6fa)

  12. @5/@6. Of course he’ll deny it- you don’t expect him to say, ‘Sweet home Alabama, yes I did it!’

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  13. even if he did it as described Mr. DCSCA these allegations are ridiculously silly

    this trailer trash creature has led this unbelievably hard life of alabama poverty and degradation

    yet her biggest trauma was this fantasy date where some guy was super nice to her and not abusive or mean or degrading (unlike her seven-and-counting drunk-ass alabama husbands)

    this makes NO sense

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  14. Have no idea if this in MSM fake news story or what really happened. Admit Moore and holy rollers give me the creeps, but that’s a bias I admit to. His refusal to obey higher courts and some of his statements cause me more concern. The voters of Alabama will have to look at this mess and then decide for themselves.

    Bugg (08921e)

  15. Bill Clinton is lighting a candle and thanking god he ran 25 years ago.

    harkin (b4548f)

  16. So what is,the standard, ths ladies go on rheir (redacted) primal scream therapy and we later finx out, Weinstein and to back took them at their word. Someone whose rectitude has been considered excessive is then charged with rather reprehensible nehavior

    narciso (d1f714)

  17. Is there a way for Moore to prove he’s innocent? If not, the charge was predictable. Wouldn’t say it’s necessarily the Democrats behind it though. The worst thing that happened to McConnell last November wasn’t Trump. It was a Republican majority in the Senate that doesn’t have excuses anymore.

    jcurtis (8292c4)

  18. I posted Moore’s denial in the previous post which addressed the allegations. I said:
    Moore has denied the allegations:
    “These allegations are completely false and are a desperate political attack by the National Democrat Party and the Washington Post on this campaign,” Moore said in a statement obtained by Breitbart News.

    Separately, Moore’s campaign said in a statement, “This garbage is the very definition of fake news and intentional defamation.”

    Dana (023079) — 11/9/2017 @ 6:46 pm

    Noted. Yet you continue to cast aspersions on him without acknowledging his denial.

    Too much like an LA Times article that mentions a correction on page C14 as they continue to bash the Republican.

    Or the NY Times and Washington Post. Just ask Sarah Palin.

    NJRob (b00189)

  19. this trailer trash creature has led this unbelievably hard life of alabama poverty and degradation

    yet her biggest trauma was this fantasy date where some guy was super nice to her and not abusive or mean or degrading (unlike her seven-and-counting drunk-ass alabama husbands)

    If these very serious allegations are true, this lady is somebody you could get to confess to killing JFK for a sandwich, a beer and a cigarette.

    nk (dbc370)

  20. And perhaps,we should consider the messenger.

    narciso (d1f714)

  21. yes yes i think the whole thing’s rather too obvious

    that said

    Alabama people are rather all too familiar with the razor of occam, and they’ll see this for what it is

    this house is clean

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  22. Reading this blog and all the GOPers trying to justify what Moore allegedly did is ridiculous. It’s like I’m reading The Onion. These guys are soooo out of touch with reality. Yeah, she was 14, but he only kissed her – what’s the problem? WTF! This crap has gone on for so long that some of these dolts don’t see a problem with it. The rationalization is off the map. Which tells you how bad this whole thing is and how we probably are only seeing the tip of the iceberg. My wife isn’t at all in the entertainment industry, but she told me years ago about the Weinstein and Spacey rumors. If she heard this stuff, virtually everybody in that business had to know…and know about many other Hollywood sexual predators. Hopefully this will continue to open the floodgates and out as many as these scum balls as possible.

    eddieb (8d1aaf)

  23. Is there a way for Moore to prove he’s innocent? If not, the charge was predictable. Wouldn’t say it’s necessarily the Democrats behind it though

    Since the accuser is a Republican that’s safe to say.

    Any reason you won’t post Roy Moore’s emphatic denial?

    NJRob

    Dishonest.

    Dustin (ba94b2)

  24. these rino pos will not denounce bobby the pedophile menendez, but will denounce Moore. All you need to know why the republican party is made up of the worst people in the world. Hope Mccain and mccdonnell and mckowski croak on chicken bones.Those three would let menendez f their grand kids.

    mg (60b0f7)

  25. Sad, rinos can’t move as fast on legislature as they did setting up Moore.

    mg (60b0f7)

  26. Yet you continue to cast aspersions on him without acknowledging his denial.

    NJRob, how exactly am I doing that? Because in this particular post, I am focused on demonstrating the outrageous lengths GOP party leaders are going to defend their fellow Republican when they don’t even know if the allegations are founded, and much more troubling, declaring that even if they are proven out, they would still vote for Moore. Party loyalty usurps all else – even if these moral failings and subsequent denials that followed pan out.

    Why do you continue to ignore these reactions, which by any reasonable person’s standard would be at the very least, troubling? Why are you instead focused on me and my disgust at grown men who would defend this alleged behavior? I can’t figure out why a reasonable person like yourself isn’t more troubled by party loyalty being elevated to the point that these adult males in GOP leadership, would be willing to lay the blame for this alleged behavior at the feet of a 14-year old girl, or dismiss her claim as irrelevant (even if true), or say that such behavior wouldn’t impact their vote. Why is there no condemnation from you about them??

    I’ve clearly stated in the post that none of us know whether these claims are true, yet these political officials are the ones acting as though they are in their defense of Moore. And I believe their defenses of Moore are revolting. Would that you be able to see that I am not the issue here.

    Dana (023079)

  27. Also, I think what happens when a Republican pol finds himself in the position of being accused of X, the right, having spent years fighting the culture wars and more often than not, being on the defensive, reflexively reacts to something like the Moore allegations as being yet one more skirmish in the same battle. And while it may be just that, or it may be strictly a political tactic employed by the Democrats to just win the election, the truth is, none of us – save the woman making said allegations and Moore himself – know with any certainty that this is indeed just another skirmish in the same battle or a sleazy ploy by the Dems. Or worse, that Moore really did treat a 14-year old girl in this manner. If we’re pre-programmed to automatically assume that it’s just part of the culture wars or a cheap move by the Democrats, then what happens when it is neither of those and rather, it is Moore having behaved very, very badly?

    I guess I think we shouldn’t have a built-in response, even though the urge to do so is strengthened by dishonest attacks by Democrats in the past. Nor should our response be to automatically believe such accusations because we don’t like said individual’s views or beliefs, even if they are on our side of the aisle. Thus, a wait-and-see take of If the allegations prove to be true, Roy Moore must step down seems appropriate. But the GOP members cited in the post view this in any way but that. Party loyalty shouldn’t supersede our principles. Our principles and values should inform our politics. Not the other way around.

    Dana (023079)

  28. Dana, Judge Moore has been a lightening rod in Alabama for the better part of a decade.
    I’m shocked, shocked, that a republican lawyer, in 40 years ago deep blue Alabama, was carrying on like this in a state where everyone talks.

    He denied it most vehemently, remember the dems just got the republican gov to resign over an affair, they have been cooking this up for months.

    EPWJ (4dc563)

  29. Roy Moore has been, as EPWJ said, a lightning rod in Alabama for many years. Why these allegations appear now ?

    The WaPo slimed George Allen for similar reasons. He was running for the Senate, and WaPo is the company town paper.

    I didn’t trust it then (and I stopped believing Larry Sabato about anything) and I don’t trust it now.

    Mike K (b3dd19)

  30. Politico

    The forces of evil will lie, cheat, steal — even inflict physical harm — if they believe it will silence and shut up Christian conservatives like you and me,” Moore continued in the email. “Their goal is to frustrate and slow down our campaign’s progress to help the Obama-Clinton Machine silence our conservative message. That’s why I must be able to count on the help of God-fearing conservatives like you to stand with me at this critical moment.”

    The email then asks for an “emergency contribution” to Moore’s campaign.

    I think Moore needs an Old Testament solution like a good stoning

    Ben burn (b3d5ab)

  31. On Oct. 7, 2016, The Post had another scoop: Donald Trump had been recorded casually talking about sexual assault while preparing for a segment on “Access Hollywood.” When he denied having actually assaulted anyone during a presidential debate, a number of women came forward to say that he’d done to them precisely what he described in those audio recordings.

    The result for Trump? He won more support from evangelical voters than any Republican since the question of religious identification began being asked.

    http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/opinion/commentary/ct-roy-moore-sexual-assault-underage-20171109-story.html

    Ben burn (b3d5ab)

  32. Evangelicals seem to have struck a bargain with Satan in order to preserve their relationship with Jesus.

    Ben burn (b3d5ab)

  33. How easy it is to convince those that appear willing to do the Dems bidding!?!?

    Colonel Haiku (dd820b)

  34. Wait and see approach as they sharpen their knives to cut the man loose.

    Colonel Haiku (dd820b)

  35. Just curious l… what were the age requirements for marriage in Alabama back in those days?

    Colonel Haiku (dd820b)

  36. White House spokesperson Sarah Huckabee Sanders’ statement on behalf of the president:

    Like most Americans, the President believes we cannot allow a mere allegation, in this case one from many years ago, to destroy a person’s life. The President also believes that if these allegations are true, Judge Moore will do the right thing and step aside.

    Dana (023079)

  37. Saying that Moore should step aside if the allegations are true seems a fair response to everyone but Moore and the GOP Party leaders in Alabama. Is Trump doing the Democrats’ bidding, Haiku?

    “The president believes we cannot allow a mere allegation, in this case one from many years ago, to destroy a person’s life. However, the president also believes that if these allegations are true, Judge Moore will do the right thing and step aside,” Sanders told reporters aboard Air Force One.

    DRJ (15874d)

  38. A lifelong republican they tell us:

    https://mobile.twitter.com/steph93065/status/928862158812692480

    Dana, where does one go to get their reputation back.

    narciso (d1f714)

  39. Considered innocent till proven guilty!

    That statement is the foundation of our jurisprudence, allegations are insufficient to assume guilt, much less to initiate punishment.

    Everyone knows that, but the idiots, pests, and fanitics here can’t wait to kick off Roy Moore’s pecking party. Like the Red Queen said: First the sentence, then the trial.

    ropelight (3dc687)

  40. This story helps Trump since he did not support Moore, but it hurts him as well since he’s now stuck on the same side. What hurts Trump most is that the story is dominating the news when Trump was on his foreign trip — the best kind of story for a President who needs to look more statesman like and Presidential.

    DRJ (15874d)

  41. Will Trump step aside?

    Ben burn (b3d5ab)

  42. “Unlike most Western countries, half of the US states do not have a legal minimum age of marriage. While in most US states, individuals age 18 have a right to marriage (with two exceptions—Nebraska (19) and Mississippi (21)), all states allow minors to marry in certain circumstances, such as parental consent, judicial consent, pregnancy, or a combination of these situations. Most states allow parties aged 16 and 17 to marry with parental consent alone. In most states, children under 16 can be married too. In the 25 states [1] which have an absolute minimum age set by statute, this age varies between 13 and 17, while in 25 states there is no statutory minimum age if other legal conditions are met. Although in such states there is no set minimum age by statute, the traditional common law minimum age is 14 for boys and 12 for girls – ages which have been confirmed by case law in some states.[2] Over the past 15 years, more than 200,000 minors married in US, and in Tennessee girls as young as 10 were married in 2001.[3]”

    Pulled from wiki, current laws, for what it’s worth… looking to see what the age was 40 years ago.

    Colonel Haiku (dd820b)

  43. So you’re thinking legality as opposed to morality?

    Natch!

    Ben burn (b3d5ab)

  44. Customs are different… regional differences. Reckon if Moore had done anything improper or inappropriate, kinfolk would’ve settled his hash damned skippy, IYKWIMAITYD.

    Colonel Haiku (dd820b)

  45. 46… beenburned preaches morality. The worm has turned.

    Colonel Haiku (dd820b)

  46. Did Eric wemple ever apologize for the dog droppings he entertained, about the huntress, did the daily caller on mischacterizing a direct assault as some kind of dare.

    narciso (d1f714)

  47. What hurts Trump most is that the story is dominating the news when Trump was on his foreign trip — the best kind of story for a President who needs to look more statesman like and Presidential.

    Yeah, the media was really doing a bang up job reporting on the trip prior to this.

    LOL

    BuDuh (fc15db)

  48. Right on the same way Cruz was getting in the way of obamacare shortcomings. They spent 23 million dollars on that primary and they got bupkis.

    narciso (d1f714)

  49. The timing and substance of this story strikes me as originating with the Alabama Democratic Party. It comes just before the general election but after Moore is the nominee, so it primarily benefits the Democratic nominee. It involves local people as the accusers — so it’s not surprising that some are Republican since Alabama is heavily Republican — but accusations by local Republicans adds weight to the claims in the minds of local voters.

    Last minute allegations of sexual impropriety are common in political campaigns, especially against Republicans, but the recent Hollywood stories give stories like this extra impact. That’s a plus for the Democrats and it may well depress turnout in the general election. I’m not sure it will change the outcome, though. The intent may be to see Moore lose, but it could also be an effort to discredit Moore as a Senator in the same way the Anita Hill story damaged Clarence Thomas.

    DRJ (15874d)


  50. What hurts Trump most is…….

    ….the media in America is nothing more than the advertising and propaganda wing of the DNC. They will cover anything that stops any positive Republican spin on any subject.

    Rev.Hoagie® (6bbda7)

  51. Why you don’t think the den of thieves in the state capital, working with mcturtle are up to it, re Tom Ross and castles Redfield rove.

    So what story is crowded out by this, do you wonder?

    narciso (d1f714)

  52. That’s almost sad, hoagie.

    Ben burn (b3d5ab)

  53. Ah yes the John Edwards supporter, snorfle.

    narciso (d1f714)

  54. It was early 1979 and Moore — now the Republican nominee in Alabama for a U.S. Senate seat — was a 32-year-old assistant district attorney. He struck up a conversation, Corfman and her mother say, and offered to watch the girl while her mother went inside for a child custody hearing. “He said, ‘Oh, you don’t want her to go in there and hear all that. I’ll stay out here with her,’ ” says Corfman’s mother, Nancy Wells, 71. “I thought, how nice for him to want to take care of my little girl.”
    ADVERTISEMENT – CONTINUE READING BELOW

    Alone with Corfman, Moore chatted with her and asked for her phone number, she says. Days later, she says, he picked her up around the corner from her house in Gadsden, drove her about 30 minutes to his home in the woods, told her how pretty she was and kissed her. On a second visit, she says, he took off her shirt and pants and removed his clothes. He touched her over her bra and underpants, she says, and guided her hand to touch him over his underwear.
    Aside from Corfman, three other women interviewed by The Washington Post in recent weeks say Moore pursued them when they were between the ages of 16 and 18 and he was in his early 30s, episodes they say they found flattering at the time, but troubling as they got older. None of the women say that Moore forced them into any sort of relationship or sexual contact. Wendy Miller says she was 14 and working as a Santa’s helper at the Gadsden Mall when Moore first approached her, and 16 when he asked her on dates, which her mother forbade. Debbie Wesson Gibson says she was 17 when Moore spoke to her high school civics class and asked her out on the first of several dates that did not progress beyond kissing. Gloria Thacker Deason says she was an 18-year-old cheerleader when Moore began taking her on dates that included bottles of Mateus Rosé wine. The legal drinking age in Alabama was 19.

    Ben burn (b3d5ab)

  55. Meanwhile, conservative writer Jonah Goldberg criticizes the Republicans who are defending Moore. “… I cannot grasp why so many people think it’s a good idea to stand by a man who, if elected, will serve as a negative campaign ad made flesh. I get the argument that it’s a ‘binary choice!’ But it’s a binary choice now, because a bunch of people who want to see the GOP burn down made it one.”

    Goldberg adds, “In the long run, a Senator Moore would cost Republicans more seats than the one he might give them. He’d be an albatross for every elected Republican, including President Trump, who will be asked to take a side on every scene in the clown show Moore would bring to Washington. And every conservative who ever denounces a Democrat for immoral behavior or insane views will be asked, ‘Oh yeah, why did you support Roy Moore then?’ Saving Steve Bannon’s reputation as the leader of some (doomed) movement certainly isn’t worth it, not for the cost to the GOP not to mention your own souls.”

    Ben burn (b3d5ab)

  56. we now have a new measure of the depths to which nevertrump trash will sink

    but i fear they can go much much lower

    their rabid contempt for democracy isn’t something we’re familiar with in this country

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  57. Yes mittens Norma Desmond, wonder if omelet man will crawl out.

    narciso (d1f714)

  58. BuDuh,

    The original Washington Post story about Moore was dated November 9, the 4th day of Trump’s 11-day Asia trip, and approximately 36 hours before the Asia-Pacific summit started in Vietnam — the highlight of Trump’s trip. The media is covering his trip, and they were covering his preliminary stops in Japan and China, but this story effectively knocked it out of the headlines just as Trump was headed to the high point of the trip.

    Feel free to respond by saying LOL. It’s easier.

    DRJ (15874d)

  59. As if that story won’t dominate the entire weekend, and puts a pillow on the direct assault on rand Paul, the discoveries re fusion gps and veselnutskata, do you take us for dools.

    narciso (d1f714)

  60. LOL

    BuDuh (fc15db)

  61. BuDuh is to conversations as dog[rhymes with Loop] is to sidewalks.

    nk (dbc370)

  62. 7. happyfeet (28a91b) — 11/9/2017 @ 6:48 pm

    if maybe the harvey bomb wasn’t set off on purpose

    That’s a question that needs going into. It may have ben failed damage control.

    Ronan Farrow was researching this for an article to be published in New Yorker. Weinstein (or somebody hired to defend him and prevent publicity) leaked less damaging accusations to the New York Times with the idea of taking the sting out of it.

    How Farrow got interested in this I don’t know. In a way this has been building up for 3 years. It also started with that comic saying something about Bill Cosby – and that I think was political, because Cosby was a counter-voice to all that kind of no blacks are doing anything wrong kind of thinking. I think it’s very possible that somebody wanted to remove Cosby as a voice in the public square, Otherwise, why then? Race relations were getting worse, because of the claims that were being made, and Bill Cosby stood in the way of them getting worse.

    Somebody might have had yet another target in he end. I don’t know that this would all have bene done for an Alabama Senate race that can’t be won anyway. Maybe these kinds of allegations are more damaging to conservatives than liberals. Or it could be that whoever set off this bomb found out it got out of hand and was not under anybody’s control. Anyway, there are things I would like to know that we don’t know.

    Sammy Finkelman (69aa73)

  63. It is an uncomfortable story, now we see there is a direct incentive for veselnitskaya to embellish her story. By comparison.

    narciso (d1f714)

  64. kishnevi (0dce2b) — 11/9/2017 @ 6:58 pm

    … Good thing Ziegler doesn’t know the Rabbinic midrash which teaches that when they first married Isaac was forty and Rebecca three (they waited ten years to consummate the marriage).

    This is based on the fact that the borth of Rebecca is mentioned on;y after the Akedah (the binding of Isaac (genesis 22) and the next thing mentioned is he death of Sarah when he would have been 37. So that gives her 3 years if she was born right before.

    But it actually says that Abraham heard about a whole lot of births at the same time, so logically that means he was out of touch with his brother and the last one of them (this one is actually a granddaughter, Rebecca) could have happened years before.

    The actions of Rebecca in Genesis in Genesis 24 don’t sound like that of a 3-year old. There are other opinions. It is possible to think all of this because ages didn’t mean the same thing in those generations – except that 3 years old should have been even more immature.

    The oldest age for Isaac at the Akedeh was 37, but he is described with a word that would fit a teenager at 22:5.

    Sammy Finkelman (69aa73)

  65. She’s an ambulance chaser specializing in mechanics liens lol.

    http://www.vinogradovalaw.com

    Ben burn (b3d5ab)

  66. It also started with that comic saying something about Bill Cosby

    NPR picked up that story immediately and began a relentless campaign aimed at lynching Mr. Cosby.

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  67. NJRob, how exactly am I doing that? Because in this particular post, I am focused on demonstrating the outrageous lengths GOP party leaders are going to defend their fellow Republican when they don’t even know if the allegations are founded, and much more troubling, declaring that even if they are proven out, they would still vote for Moore. Party loyalty usurps all else – even if these moral failings and subsequent denials that followed pan out.

    Why do you continue to ignore these reactions, which by any reasonable person’s standard would be at the very least, troubling? Why are you instead focused on me and my disgust at grown men who would defend this alleged behavior? I can’t figure out why a reasonable person like yourself isn’t more troubled by party loyalty being elevated to the point that these adult males in GOP leadership, would be willing to lay the blame for this alleged behavior at the feet of a 14-year old girl, or dismiss her claim as irrelevant (even if true), or say that such behavior wouldn’t impact their vote. Why is there no condemnation from you about them??

    I’ve clearly stated in the post that none of us know whether these claims are true, yet these political officials are the ones acting as though they are in their defense of Moore. And I believe their defenses of Moore are revolting. Would that you be able to see that I am not the issue here.

    Dana (023079) — 11/10/2017 @ 4:26 am

    If the stuff with a 14 year old is true, he should’ve never run in the first place and should step down.

    The rest is nonsense and being used to stack the deck on the original claim.

    Is the woman that narciso shows with Biden the original accuser? Because then it seems like a hit job.

    NJRob (b00189)

  68. The reason people don’t want to say Moore should quit, is the same reason people would not want a blackmailer to get the results he wanted to happen when somebody didn’t pay the blackmail.

    It’s being very subtly suggested that this is something current, but I think the people who dug this up know it is not, and don’t even dare to utter the idea. There’s not shred of an accusation here that Moore has done anything like this since he got married, in 1985. It’s being said these women came forward, but that’s not true.

    Sammy Finkelman (69aa73)

  69. And I just lost all respect for Mitt Romney. I’ll never say another good word about the sonouvab!tch, again. He should have stepped aside when Harry Reid said he didn’t pay any taxes.

    nk (dbc370)

  70. nevertrump has lurid fantasies of molested young girls, and it excites them to believe this is true

    but they are foolish and perverse creatures

    with a surpassing contempt for democracy

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  71. The republicans better buckle up because every one of them old enough to have lived through the 60’s has a history that looks different in today’s culture than it did in the Age of Aquarius. Every. Single. One of them.

    crazy (d99a88)

  72. What this story provides is — like the Comey firing and not coincidentally also tied to Mike Flynn’s actions — important timing. In November, Trump promised to keep Preet. In December, Flynn continued his discussions with the Turks. In March, just after DOJ started forcing Flynn to reveal details about his work for Turkey, Trump reneged on his promise to Preet and — in the guise of firing everyone — fired Preet.

    Here’s what the timeline looks like:

    November 30: Trump tells Preet he can stay

    Mid-December: Flynn has meeting discussing $15 million payoff for doing Turkey’s bidding

    March 7: Flynn submits delated FARA registration ending in November

    March 11: Trump fires Preet

    Given Sessions’ confusion about whether he was really involved in that decision, I would bet there’s a paper trail showing he provided, as he did for the Comey firing, cover for a decision that had already been made.

    https://www.emptywheel.net/2017/11/10/the-flynn-turkey-deal-raises-the-obstruction-stakes-for-the-preet-bharara-firing/

    It’s getting exciting..

    Ben burn (b3d5ab)

  73. “There is nothing to see here,” Zeigler told The Washington Examiner. “The allegations are that a man in his early 30s dated teenage girls. Even the Washington Post report says that he never had sexual intercourse with any of the girls and never attempted sexual intercourse.

    The New York Times writes that Jim Zeigler also said that the account given by Leigh Corfman “was the only part that is concerning” and “He went a little too far, and he stopped.”

    (Maybe she stopped? Maybe she didn’t want to see him any more? Maybe the seduction failed? I mean, he wasn’t going to rape her. Maybe he was even hoping to marry her one day.)

    Zeigler also said, according to the New York Times, “it would have been perfectly acceptable” if Leigh had been 16 and not 14 at the time.

    It would have been legal, maybe not really acceptable. You know, adultery is almost outright legal now. What’s legal or not isn’t the be all and end all of everything.

    The thing is, what Leigh Corfman accuses him of doing might have been criminal, but the statute of limitations has long since expired.

    Sammy Finkelman (69aa73)

  74. 14-year-olds don’t make good decisions.”

    Vote for Moore

    Ben burn (b3d5ab)

  75. By the way, they are saying this was 40 years ago, and even that it was “more than 40 years ago.”

    Not true. The time of the alleged events is 38 1/2 years ago.

    But maybe Jim Zeigler can cite the Bible here. When the Jews were condemned to wander in the desert for 40 years, it was really only 38 1/2 years more.

    Deuteronomy 2:14:

    יד וְהַיָּמִים אֲשֶׁר-הָלַכְנוּ מִקָּדֵשׁ בַּרְנֵעַ, עַד אֲשֶׁר-עָבַרְנוּ אֶת-נַחַל זֶרֶד, שְׁלֹשִׁים וּשְׁמֹנֶה, שָׁנָה–עַד-תֹּם כָּל-הַדּוֹר אַנְשֵׁי הַמִּלְחָמָה, מִקֶּרֶב הַמַּחֲנֶה, כַּאֲשֶׁר נִשְׁבַּע יְהוָה, לָהֶם. 14

    And the days in which we came from Kadesh-barnea, until we were come over the brook Zered, were thirty and eight years; until all the generation, even the men of war, were consumed from the midst of the camp, as the LORD swore unto them.

    Sammy Finkelman (69aa73)

  76. streiff has it right. Step away from the lynching. Even if Moore’s elected the Senate doesn’t have to seat him.

    crazy (d99a88)

  77. Mitt Romney wants a beautiful lynching he wants to string Roy Moore up like how they did on perverted Mormon pedophile Joseph Smith who loved to slurp slurp slurp the young mormie girls including his 14-year-old vixen wives Helen and Nancy (slurpy slurpy so good)

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  78. Bona fide Trumpet says “So?

    If you want to condemn Moore based on this, well that’s your right. I’m not going to argue this with anyone because if you’ve already decided Moore is guilty then we have nothing to talk about. If you want to say I’m a bad person, knock yourself out I really don’t care. The adulation of people I don’t know is not one of my motivators.

    Ben burn (b3d5ab)

  79. I did not realize until now that deep down he is a shallow person.

    nk (dbc370)

  80. he’s very tribal

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  81. Why do conservatives default to the lowest common denominator..?

    Why do they decorate, rather than hide their plantar warts?

    Ben burn (b3d5ab)

  82. Why ask why?

    Ben burn (b3d5ab)

  83. The response to Weinstein was the end of tolerance for bad behaviors by a certain sector of the population. Not that conservatives didn’t need spittle bibs at the news of Hollywood excess. But the other half doesn’t accept their native perverts with a taint, but with a veneer of disgust largely eclipsed by their shallow personal values. I can’t imagine what they’re thinking. Are they thinking?

    Ben burn (b3d5ab)

  84. Heh. He also believes the Earth is 6000 years old.

    It comes down to a question who is more credible in the eyes of the voters — the candidate or the accuser,” said Jerry Falwell Jr., the president of evangelical Liberty University who has endorsed Trump and Moore, both Republicans.

    “The same thing happened to President Trump a few weeks before his election last year except it was several women making allegations,” Falwell told RNS in an email. “He denied that any of them were true and the American people believed him and elected him the 45th president of the United States.”

    In a follow-up email, Falwell noted Moore’s denial of the allegations, saying: “And I believe the judge is telling the truth.”

    http://religionnews.com/2017/11/10/conservatives-defend-roy-moore-invoking-joseph-mary-and-the-ten-commandments/

    Ben burn (b3d5ab)

  85. There is really only one defense: the claim that maybe he didn’t do it.

    While there is reason to believe that people are coming forward now, when before they feared to, there is also the rising possibility that false denunciations are being made while the making is good.

    There are a lot of men who could be vulnerable to extortion, revenge, or political animus here. Not saying that this is one of those cases but some women lie.

    Kevin M (752a26)

  86. And: it’s a good thing for Teddy Kennedy that he’s dead.

    Kevin M (752a26)

  87. Considering that Moore has had to be kicked out of jobs he’s held, which is more likely: He’ll step down, or Kim Jong Un will give up his nukes?

    Kevin M (752a26)

  88. Today, Rush pointed out that the ‘holier than thou’ Hollywood perverts currently layin’ low or on the lam are big bucks loud-mouth Democrat supporters and contributers. Not one Republican among the dirty turds.

    What is it that draws crooks, poverty pimps, inverts, wackjobs, traitors, and human flotsam to the Jackass Party? Is it as simple as ‘birds of a feather…’ or that poluted waters seek the lowest levels?

    It’s beyond me why anyone with an ounce of self-respect and even a faint trace of integrity would associate themselves with such an obvious gang of criminals, malcontents, and outright traitors.

    ropelight (3dc687)

  89. 94

    Already covered in 89.

    Ben burn (b3d5ab)

  90. http://www.latimes.com/politics/la-na-pol-trump-judge-20171110-story.html

    Filling holes…not good. Hope he’s not a pedophile.

    Ben burn (b3d5ab)

  91. 94. ropelight (3dc687) — 11/10/2017 @ 10:01 am

    What is it that draws crooks, poverty pimps, inverts, wackjobs, traitors, and human flotsam to the Jackass Party? Is it as simple as ‘birds of a feather…’ or that polluted waters seek the lowest levels?

    Neither. It is that some Democrats are really, really skilled at manipulating the media and covering things up. But it’s maybe more that Democratic bundlers recruit them, rather than that they seek out Democrats. At the start, they wouldn’t even know that Democratic Party could help them. (maybe there’s something abit off here, though)

    Sammy Finkelman (69aa73)

  92. Not saying that this is one of those cases but some women lie.

    Anita Hill lied and she had been promised that she could be anonymous in her accusation.

    Then a Democrat staffer leaked her ID.

    The feminists all defended her though and Thomas’s witnesses were not allowed to testify.

    Mike K (b3dd19)

  93. National Reivew’s all in: open-and-shut case on Moore, he should just step down now. They would rather gamble on a write-in campaign.

    I’m really surprised by such a rush to judgment–except that this is a guy they have always hated.

    Frederick (53c627)

  94. How did you substantiate Hills lies?

    wishful thinking

    Ben burn (b3d5ab)

  95. They’re conflating everything with pedophilia, accepting the WaPo version of events as face value, and saying where there’s smoke there’s fire. That’s some motivated reasoning right there.

    Frederick (53c627)

  96. Statement just released by accused abuser Louis C.K.:

    “These stories are true.”

    Dave (445e97)

  97. With that little revolver, Moore would just end up with a third nostril, should he go the R Budd DWYER route.

    urbanleftbehind (847a06)

  98. If Roy Moore did it the only decent thing for him to do would be to retire from public life.

    But if he didn’t, how’s he supposed to defend himself?

    NRO’s reasoning is that it’s so unlikely that four women would have cooked it up independently, and that this isn’t court so there’s no presumption of innocence, and Moore should just step down and the party in Alabama should risk the seat on a write-in campaign.

    This is directly at odds with their stance on sexual assault allegations at colleges and universities. The universities argue that since it’s not court, they don’t have to prove it, and NRO rejects that. As for women conspiring to smear someone, NRO has reported cases of that at college campuses. And we only have the WaPo’s word that the women acting independently, only came forward, when contacted, are Trump voters, etc. And as for confirmation of “witnesses”, they’ve confirmed that yes, Moore and the then-14-year-old were in court on the same day.

    They would never accept this standard against someone they didn’t hate enough to risk a Senate seat over.

    If this sort of thing becomes the new normal, well the phrase “sowing the wind and reaping the whirlwind” comes to mind.

    Frederick (53c627)

  99. Those of us who remember the 60’s remember the many young ladies who turned out to be high school girls. Before lynching Moore Alabama voters should know the rest of the story. Wouldn’t it be ironic if Moore turned out to be an inexperienced and sexually unliberated young man trying to navigate the dating world in the Age of Aquarius rather than the creepy old pedophile the story would have us believe.

    True or not, or more likely somewhere in between, there’s no good outcome for republicans at this point other than winning the seat, refusing to seat him if he’s lying and starting the process of filling this seat all over. Anything else is a yuuge win for the Senate club that couldn’t care less about Bob Menendez’s dalliance with under-aged working girls provided by his moneyed friend(s). So their objections are not about his morality, they’re about not wanting this particular man in the club.

    crazy (d99a88)

  100. filthy nevertrump pervert Mitt Romney wants the democrats to take the Senate so they can do #resist

    how hard is this to see

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  101. The WaPo’s new slogan is that: Democracy dies in darkness, what they don’t mention is that they stand ready to turn out the lights.

    ropelight (3dc687)

  102. Maybe Jeff Sessions can resign and run a write-in campaign for his old job.

    Kevin M (752a26)

  103. Democracy dies when the press sells out.

    Kevin M (752a26)

  104. Louis C.K. has always been a pig. He is the left-wing Andrew Dice Clay but because he is left-wing, they gave him a pass for decades. Want to see him tell a young woman, on national television, “I’m going to masturbate and think about you”? No? I don’t blame you, I’m sorry I did.

    nk (dbc370)

  105. Too bad the AL (2020) and NJ (2018) Senate terms in question don’t both have the short window as the Menendez seat. That could have been an interesting “trade” letting Jones get seated but in return getting Menendez to resign with Christie being given a very conservative (yeah I know it’s Jersey) conservative name to appoint.

    urbanleftbehind (847a06)

  106. > How Farrow got interested in this I don’t know.

    It seems reasonable to conclude that Ronan Farrow has reasons of personal history to be interested in the stories of women who have been abused by powerful Hollywood men. It seems likely that he has an axe to grind on this issue. (And rightly so).

    aphrael (e0cdc9)

  107. @crazy:So their objections are not about his morality, they’re about not wanting this particular man in the club.

    They don’t have to seat him if they don’t want. So not wanting to seat him, is not a motive for wanting him destroyed by an allegation that cannot possibly be substantiated except by Moore himself.

    And if he did it, he needs to admit it and drop out.

    Frederick (53c627)

  108. 108, I’m surprised half of this board hasn’t jumped on that idea.

    urbanleftbehind (847a06)

  109. So the ladies that were of legal age of consent said he didn’t do anything untoward, asked permission from their parents, and that they broke up harmlessly.

    And that’s being tied in to prove he did something inappropriate with a minor. Correct?

    NJRob (b00189)

  110. And the senate committee is playing the akin game. Shows you how the fix is , like 8mississippi kansas

    narciso (d1f714)

  111. >The universities argue that since it’s not court, they don’t have to prove it, and NRO rejects that.

    I think the difference is that the kinds of sanctions the universities hand out — including potentially expulsion — are more court-like in nature. *Especially* in the case of public universities, where the students have due process rights.

    aphrael (e0cdc9)

  112. I didn’t trust it then (and I stopped believing Larry Sabato about anything) and I don’t trust it now.

    I find it interesting that no one seems to realize that this being a political ploy on the part of the Left does not mean the allegations are false. The Post went looking for dirt and apparently had to go back 40 years to find it.
    Does anyone know when Moore became “born again”? I couldn’t find that doing a quick look online. I did find out he joined the GOP in 1992, so at the time of these incidents he may not have been a Christian believer, but he was a Democrat.

    kishnevi (ad27e2)

  113. Frederick@113 I don’t disagree but I wouldn’t rule out the fact that this all may have been more innocent than it sounds today but profoundly embarrassing for Moore to admit that at 32 yrs old he was less sexually mature and experienced than his peers leading him to a few sweet young things that may have been younger than they appeared or than he thought they were. Or he may be a big fat liar who’s going down in flames and deserves everything that’s coming whether he pulls out now or not.

    Politically the question is how to keep the seat. Deal with this straight up, win now and then dump him later if guilty then start over may be easier than trying to mount a write-in campaign with an ugly and unresolvable mess hanging over a race where the absentee ballots have already been mailed out.

    crazy (d99a88)

  114. I think the difference is that the kinds of sanctions the universities hand out — including potentially expulsion — are more court-like in nature.

    Off-topic, I guess, but being expelled from a university for sexually harassing another student is not much different from being thrown out of a bar for being drunk and rowdy. In both cases, the justification is that you are interfering with the establishment’s ability to serve other clients.

    While a public institution has due process obligations, there is nothing “court-like” about the sanctions.

    Dave (445e97)

  115. The Senate doesn’t want to do anything of consequence, rand Paul is off the forld

    narciso (d1f714)

  116. 100. Ben burn (b3d5ab) — 11/10/2017 @ 10:46 am

    How did you substantiate Hills lies?

    Oh, it’s very simple. You would think maybe there was no way to determine it; that it was simply a “he said, she said” situation, but there were ancillary statements made and ways of getting at the truth.

    Streiff on Red State, linked by crazy @82, has it that “there are people out there who still believe Anita Hill” but that has it wrong, and his memory is fading or he’s been affected by the media trope because he’s forgotten that while before their testimony, most people believed Anita Hill. After her testimony, a majority of the public believed Anita hill was lying and Clarence Thomas was telling the truth.

    However, since then, this has become such an often cited case in point, that people have come to believe that Anita Hill was telling the truth. But they only believe that for the reason Goebbels said people believe lies. And Arlen Specter stopped arguing, which was a mistake.

    All those people who claim that Anita Hill was telling the truth never go into details. That’s because they can’t, really.

    There was the question: If, Clarence Thomas was harassing her – if she didn’t like what Clarence Thomas was doing, why did she follow him from one office to the other when he changed jobs?

    Her answer was a lie: The great Democratic talking point about Reagan wanting to abolish the Department of Education. She was afraid that the Department of Education would be abolished. This screamed to high heaven that she was lying, and lying at the behest of Democrats.

    Now abolishing the Department of Education did not mean, as Democrats tried to get people to believe but never explicitly said, abolishing (most of) what it was doing, but just converting it into a Foundation or a sub-cabinet agency or folding it back into HEW. Everything would go on as before , except maybe for the higher political level positions. (that raises the question of why the teachers’ unions wanted it in the first place. Maybe so they could go on junkets. Other countries had a Department of education – they wanted one also. That’s all I heard. I never really read any explanation as to why they wanted it – what would it do?)

    Anita Hill was a civil servant, as Senator Arlen Specter pointed out, and she would not have lost her job. However he used terminology that would be more familiar to people in Washington. It still was clear to people watching the hearings. He repeated it a lot. And she never gave an answer.

    The other thing was the testimony of her co-workers, that when she worked there, she was NOT avoiding him. In fact some of them thought the explanation for her accusations was that she was interested in him and he wasn’t in her. (I don’t think that was the explanation)

    Now, had all these accusations been true, there would not have been a very good reason for Clarence Thomas to deny that. He was divorced at the time. He wasn’t being accused of something that should disqualify anyone. Just a terrible method of courting a woman. He could have admitted it and apologized. It would have been accepted by Senator Biden. He had considered it a matter of no importance before it became public.

    The biggest reason for Clarence Thomas to deny that was that it simply was not true.

    It’s a little like what Ed here said about some of the ones here – the fact that the accusation was mild made it more believable.

    Clarence Thomas was of the opinion that the accusations by Anita hill were a recent invention. I don’t know if that’s true – it may be – and that would be a very interesting and important story.

    It looked on the surface to me that Anita Hill quit because she wasn’t so good at her job, and maybe she wouldn’t be promoted, or the job was hard for her and other was easier, (that part is generally
    believed by everyone who thinks she is a liar) but (this part is what I thought) she didn’t want to say that. So whenever she was asked why she quit, she “explained” it was because she was sexually harassed. But she never went into detail. So it looked from the testimony of people who said she had told them about this years before (unless, as Clarence Thomas felt, they were lying too.)

    Came Clarence Thomas’ nomination to be a Justice on the United States Supreme Court, which was difficult for Democrats to oppose because he was an African American replacing an African American.

    So some Democrats, who got wind of this because she’d told this sexual harassment – no details – story to a number of people were determined to force her out in the open. So what she did, it looks like, was invent details that wouldn’t be too big a lie – or maybe it is that they wouldn’t make her look too weak for not making a big fuss at the time.

    She was promised anonymity at first but the Senate Judiciary Committee did not kill the nomination in committee.

    Among the people who knew it before it became public were Bill and Hillary Clinton, because they both Yale Law School graduates. Someone in he class of 1972 knew, I think.

    At some point there was a round robin letter sent to Anita Hill and signed by Yale Law School graduates.

    Bill Clinton declared his candidacy for president on the day of the Anita Hill leak.

    David Brock was first going to write a book about the Anita Hill leak, but then he changed it to a book about Anita Hill called “The real Anita Hill” and he’s since become a big supporter of the Clintons, so I think that’s good reason to think Bill and Hillary Clinton were involved with the leak. He didn’t switch sides. He was already covering up for the Clintons from the start.

    Sammy Finkelman (69aa73)

  117. being expelled from a university for sexually harassing another student is not much different from being thrown out of a bar for being drunk and rowdy

    except the fascist university pigs keep your monies what you pre-paid for a whole semester

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  118. All women should be believed unless they are accusing my husband. hillary clinton. A republican child molester is better then a democrat. Sweet home alabama. hope neil young will remember southern man don’t need him around.

    alabammy (3d2978)

  119. “So the ladies that were of legal age of consent said he didn’t do anything untoward, asked permission from their parents, and that they broke up harmlessly.

    And that’s being tied in to prove he did something inappropriate with a minor. Correct?”

    – NJRob

    Actually, not correct.

    NJRob would have everyone forget that the most disturbing allegations against Moore involve actual sexual contact with an actual minor:

    “Leigh Corfman says she was 14 years old when an older man approached her outside a courtroom in Etowah County, Ala. She was sitting on a wooden bench with her mother, they both recall, when the man introduced himself as Roy Moore.

    Alone with Corfman, Moore chatted with her and asked for her phone number, she says. Days later, she says, he picked her up around the corner from her house in Gadsden, drove her about 30 minutes to his home in the woods, told her how pretty she was and kissed her. On a second visit, she says, he took off her shirt and pants and removed his clothes. He touched her over her bra and underpants, she says, and guided her hand to touch him over his underwear.

    Leviticus (efada1)

  120. > A republican child molester is better then a democrat.

    Ah, partisanship. Any member of the tribe is better than any outsider. No matter how good the outsider, nor how bad the member of the tribe, it doesn’t matter, tribal membership is all.

    aphrael (e0cdc9)

  121. One story has it that when Caesar got up in the Senate and said “Caesar’s wife must not only be good but she must also appear to be good”, the whole Senate burst out in laughter. Caesar’s own reputation at that time was that of a wastrel and a philanderer who had almost certainly been buggered by the king of Bithynia (NTTAWWT).

    Similarly, the appropriate response to all the jackleg politicos virtue-signalling about the appearance of impropriety now existing from these allegations against Roy Moore is uncontrollable laughter.

    nk (dbc370)

  122. 104. Frederick (53c627) — 11/10/2017 @ 11:10 am

    And as for confirmation of “witnesses”, they’ve confirmed that yes, Moore and the then-14-year-old were in court on the same day.

    She says that all that happened that day is that he got her telephone number. This would explain how he got to know her. Her mother seems to corroborate that he babysat her.

    Sometime later he called her and they had a date and he kissed her.

    On the second date he started to get physically involved with her getting her undressed as far as her undergarments and getting her to touch him through his undergarments. She was reluctant but didn’t know how to say no or whether she should say no.

    The third date never happened because she said no.

    Sammy Finkelman (69aa73)

  123. Leigh Corfman says she was 14 years old

    and this is the sum total of proof we have of honey boo boo’s age

    this good enough for a bad touch pervert like Mitt Romney maybe or a demented cowardpig torture victim like John McCain

    but not for decent fair-minded people

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  124. this *is* good enough for a bad touch pervert like Mitt Romney i mean

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  125. When Moore was allegedly chasing high school girls a critic of his and his paramour were also looking for love and fudging their ages according to wikipedia:

    Hensley met John McCain in April 1979 at a military reception in Hawaii.[20] He was the U.S. Navy liaison officer to the United States Senate and almost eighteen years her senior.[21] By her later description, each fudged the age they said they were to the other: “He made himself younger, and I made myself older, of course.”[22]

    crazy (d99a88)

  126. Crazy: Of course, Hensley was 25, and McCain was 43. That’s a very different scenario.

    aphrael (e0cdc9)

  127. McCain likes the young stuff that’s for sure – especially back when he was a roaring drunk like his admiral daddy

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  128. @Sammy: Her mother seems to corroborate that he babysat her.

    Yes. That is what we have witnesses to.

    Frederick (53c627)

  129. “seems to corroborate” – where are the papers proving what date this allegedly happened

    honey boo boo and mama june haven’t submitted a shred of proof have they nope other than that they’ve both made extremely questionable life choices

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  130. “So the ladies that were of legal age of consent said he didn’t do anything untoward, asked permission from their parents, and that they broke up harmlessly.

    And that’s being tied in to prove he did something inappropriate with a minor. Correct?”

    – NJRob

    Actually, not correct.

    NJRob would have everyone forget that the most disturbing allegations against Moore involve actual sexual contact with an actual minor:

    “Leigh Corfman says she was 14 years old when an older man approached her outside a courtroom in Etowah County, Ala. She was sitting on a wooden bench with her mother, they both recall, when the man introduced himself as Roy Moore.

    Alone with Corfman, Moore chatted with her and asked for her phone number, she says. Days later, she says, he picked her up around the corner from her house in Gadsden, drove her about 30 minutes to his home in the woods, told her how pretty she was and kissed her. On a second visit, she says, he took off her shirt and pants and removed his clothes. He touched her over her bra and underpants, she says, and guided her hand to touch him over his underwear.“

    Leviticus (efada1) — 11/10/2017 @ 12:18 pm

    Reread my remarks before you say I’m incorrect. What I stated was factually correct. For a lawyer, you do a poor job of reading.

    The legal acts are being used to substantiate the illegal act.

    Otherwise they wouldn’t be mentioned.

    You’re lying.

    NJRob (b00189)

  131. we all know Mr. Leviticus is a good reader

    but as a lawyer what statute are we saying was brokened

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  132. > You’re lying.

    Why is it necessary to claim a *lie*, which goes to intent and character, rather than simply claiming that he’s *wrong*?

    aphrael (e0cdc9)

  133. Of course it is aphrael, but the part about each of them pretending to be younger (him) and older (her) is likely to be close to the eventual explanation for what the heck is the real story about Moore and the high school girls.

    Let me clarify something. I didn’t particularly like Moore before any of this and still don’t but doubt that this story broke at this time and in this way because of diligent reporting but more likely as the result of the same kind of work went into the other dirty dossier. Win now. Dump him later and start over is more likely to be successful than fighting with him and losing an ineffective write-in campaign.

    crazy (d99a88)

  134. good point Mr. aphrael we don’t wanna join sleazy dishonest pervert Mitt Romney in his vapid ad hominem sewer

    not on a Friday

    especially today cause it’s snowing – the first snow of the year!

    i already went out once wearing inappropriate footwear and i’m a do it again soon once i get some stuffs off my plate

    winter’s my favorite thing ever

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  135. Why is it necessary to claim a *lie*, which goes to intent and character, rather than simply claiming that he’s *wrong*?

    aphrael (e0cdc9) — 11/10/2017 @ 12:47 pm

    Because he used his false statement to accuse me of trying to make “everyone forget the most disturbing allegations.”

    He slandered me. I called him a liar.

    NJRob (b00189)

  136. Why is it necessary to claim a *lie*, which goes to intent and character, rather than simply claiming that he’s *wrong*?

    Because Internet

    Patterico (115b1f)

  137. @aphrael:Why is it necessary to claim a *lie*, which goes to intent and character,

    A “lie” has to be a) false, b) intended to be taken as true, c) intended to deceive, d) known to the speaker to be false. Leviticus can at most be shown to be hitting a) and b).

    He might have been mistaken, which would exempt him on c) and d).

    You can deceive without lying: this is what I call “narrative” when journalists do it, by a series of true statements connected by unsupported statements to support as story incompatible with other facts not presented. You can speak the truth but not all of it. You can knowingly make false and deceptive statements that are not intended to be taken as true (“clown nose on, clown nose off”).

    Frederick (53c627)

  138. Frederick, at 143: yeah, that was sorta my point. :

    Patterico, at 142: while that’s fair, I’m going to persist in my quixotic hope that the internet can be more like the internet at its best, and less like the internet at its worst. :)

    aphrael (e0cdc9)

  139. i think it’s disingenuous though to call allegations “disturbing” if they’re not actually disturbing

    it’s just empty rhetoric used to frame the discussion in such a way as to trick people into accepting the allegations as fact when in reality it’s just stuff what came out of honey boo boo’s butt

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  140. The WaPo article is about as soundly sourced an article as you’ll ever see. Plus, everybody knew this guy was disgusting trash even before this stuff came out. Mike Lee is asking for his image to come off Moore’s ad? Sen. Lee, how about retracting your endorsement and thinking twice in the future before endorsing trash like Moore.

    It feels pretty awesome not to be in the GOP these days.

    Patterico (115b1f)

  141. Patterico, at 142: while that’s fair, I’m going to persist in my quixotic hope that the internet can be more like the internet at its best, and less like the internet at its worst.

    Yeah, I know and agree. But NJRob is a fan of Internet aggression. It’s part of why he likes Trump so much.

    Patterico (115b1f)

  142. Patterico,

    I’m a fan of internet aggression because trolls run rampant and people argue in bad faith. Politely saying he was mistaken would’ve gotten my remark ignored and his allowed to stand.

    NJRob (b00189)

  143. based on what exactly, this is the kind of trash the prevezon gang would fund, perhaps fusion gps, they are known for it, it’s too poorly done for black cube, but palladino would be game,

    narciso (d1f714)

  144. so what stories aren’t they covering, in lieu of this?

    narciso (d1f714)

  145. nevertrump and baseless slander is like the goof-ass US Navy and tatted-up trannies anymore

    come aboard

    we’re expecting you!

    hi i’m badtouch Mitt Romney your cruise director what a darling little boy you have

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  146. “Innocent until proven guilty is for criminal convictions, not elections. “ – Mitt Romney

    https://www.mediaite.com/online/mitt-romney-on-roy-moore-innocent-until-proven-guilty-is-for-criminal-convictions-not-elections/

    harkin (b4548f)

  147. well he did kill his employees wife, we are told, have they learned nothing from this exercise?

    narciso (d1f714)

  148. Tax-evader, gay-tormentor, dog-abuser and cancer-giver Mitt Romney says so.

    Man, the GOP hates Moore, and its voters in Alabama.

    Frederick (53c627)

  149. @narcisco:so what stories aren’t they covering, in lieu of this?

    Need you ask?

    Frederick (53c627)

  150. Does anyone know when Moore became “born again”? I couldn’t find that doing a quick look online. I did find out he joined the GOP in 1992, so at the time of these incidents he may not have been a Christian believer, but he was a Democrat.

    kishnevi (ad27e2) — 11/10/2017 @ 11:47 am

    This is an interesting question. One to which I can’t find an answer. He may have “grown-up” in the faith, without having any sort of St. Paul conversion moment.

    With that, no comment on the matter from Christians James Dobson or Franklin Graham. Both of whom gave their support to Moore. But maybe they don’t need to.

    Dana (023079)

  151. I’m a fan of internet aggression because trolls run rampant and people argue in bad faith. Politely saying he was mistaken would’ve gotten my remark ignored and his allowed to stand.

    I’m deleting my comment supporting you. I want to encourage good behavior and discourage bad.

    Patterico (115b1f)

  152. @Dana:With that, no comment on the matter from Christians James Dobson or Franklin Graham.

    Maybe they’re waiting to learn if it’s true.

    Frederick (53c627)

  153. Politely saying he was mistaken would’ve gotten my remark ignored and his allowed to stand.

    NJRob (b00189) — 11/10/2017 @ 1:13 pm

    Which is why I made a point to respond to each of your comments directed at me. Just saying your were mistaken would have allowed you to ignore me and let your comment stand. I prefer to clarify and explain further, if necessary, as well as refute and correct. I think that’s good practice all around. Not that we *need* to be right but because we all want and need to be understood and not taken out of context or have any spin attached to our comments.

    Dana (023079)

  154. so if a longstanding professing Christian is suspect, who can be believed?

    narciso (d1f714)

  155. I had not read this whole thread, but I notice now that after NJRob deliberately lied* by saying Dana had not posted Moore’s denial, Dana refuted NJRob’s blatant and premeditated lie* by showing that she had indeed posted that. NJRob’s next comment contained no apology for his lie*, but instead merely said:

    Noted. Yet you continue to cast aspersions on him without acknowledging his denial.

    I think NJRob owes Dana an actual apology for his lie*.

    *I would say NJRob merely misspoke, but that might not get a reaction from him, and you have to fight fire with fire, and all that other stupid bullshit.

    Patterico (115b1f)

  156. the smear is all that matters Mr. narciso – the fascist nevertrump filth what are orchestrating this don’t care if you believe it – they just want the ability to frame the last weeks of the race in terms favorable to getting an extra democrat vote for impeachment so they can depose a duly elected president

    they went to harvard you see, and they know much better than the voters do

    especially the dirty alabama voters

    slurp slurp in the burp says Mitt Romney (slurpy slurpy so good)

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  157. @narcisco:so if a longstanding professing Christian is suspect, who can be believed?

    Well, we certainly can all think of examples of professing Christians who were found to be guilty of all sorts of things.

    And that’s the narrative WaPo is pushing here.

    If he actually is guilty, of course he should retire from public life, at minimum, I don’t demand that he go so far as to enter a monastery and wash lepers.

    But WaPo has launched an attack which it is impossible to defend against, with very suspicious timing. This isn’t like Weinstein, where he was caught on tape, and has had dozens of named accusers now come out. Or like Louis CK who’s now admitted it.

    This is a guy who has always been controversial and has been in the national spotlight more than once and prominent in Alabama for decades, and he’s being required to prove a negative.

    Sowing the wind, reaping the whirlwind. This sort of thing is now going to be normal. Unless he really did it and he cops to it, this is going to be another tool of elections.

    Frederick (53c627)

  158. Also, fuck Roy Moore. He can deny this all he likes but I say he is lying. The article is solidly corroborated and he is a pile of trash human anyway.

    Patterico (115b1f)

  159. Donald Trump was right to support Luther Strange.

    Patterico (115b1f)

  160. Innocent until proven guilty is for criminal convictions, not elections. I believe Leigh Corfman. Her account is too serious to ignore. Moore is unfit for office and should step aside.

    – Mitt Romney

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  161. The article is solidly corroborated

    Who is corroborated the centerpiece accusation?

    “Two of Corfman’s childhood friends say she told them at the time that she was seeing an older man, and one says Corfman identified the man as Moore. Wells says her daughter told her about the encounter more than a decade later.”

    That is it, except for this:

    “Corfman described her story consistently in six interviews with The Post. The Post confirmed that her mother attended a hearing at the courthouse in February 1979 through divorce records. Moore’s office was down the hall from the courtroom.”

    As for the actual centerpiece accusation, one person’s word.

    Frederick (53c627)

  162. so if a longstanding professing Christian is suspect, who can be believed?

    narciso (d1f714) — 11/10/2017 @ 1:36 pm

    That’s a good question. Personally, I operate from the premise that everyone, given the right circumstances, is capable of doing pretty awful stuff. Given that, a “professing” Christian is not always synonymous with a true believer who humbly walks in the grace of, and with God. It’s easy to profess you are one. In name only. But far less easy to live in the way we are called to go. Does Moore’s life evidence to you a man of God, humble, with love for his neighbor, with an understanding that he lives in grace and not judgment, etc., etc.? It’s hard to say because we don’t know him personally, and can only judge by what he says, but moreso, by what he has done and how he has treated others. The fruit of the Spirit reveals what’s in the heart.

    For me, I don’t put a longstanding professing Christian in a category where they are not suspect, anymore than I would put a Taoist or Buddhist in that category. No one gets an automatic beyond reproach pass. But I do tend to give more credibility and belief toward those whose lives have demonstrated an observable faith, commitment, integrity, fidelity, etc. But that only goes so far if we don’t know the individual personally. What do you think?

    Dana (023079)

  163. let me put it another way, since I am occasionally accused of being cryptic, how could he prove to you he didn’t do it,

    narciso (d1f714)

  164. “What I stated was factually correct. ”

    – NJRob

    What you stated was an opinion (“that’s being tied in to prove he did something inappropriate with a minor”) phrased as a rhetorical question. It was not “factually correct.” In the process of seeking to undermine the real story by use of a red herring (“he didn’t do anything untoward with the girls who were old enough to consent!”) you attempted to draw attention away from the allegation that he DID to something untoward with the girl who was NOT old enough to consent.

    You think it helps your case that Roy Moore didn’t touch the overage girls?

    Leviticus (efada1)

  165. there’s 100% as much proof that Roy Moore touched an underage girl in the 70s as there is that Mitt Romney diddles young mormie boys in the here and now Mr. Leviticus

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  166. “Wendy Miller says she was 14 and working as a Santa’s helper at the Gadsden Mall when Moore first approached her, and 16 when he asked her on dates, which her mother forbade. Debbie Wesson Gibson says she was 17 when Moore spoke to her high school civics class and asked her out on the first of several dates that did not progress beyond kissing.”

    – Washington Post Article

    These other girls were “tied in” to show that Roy Moore was pursuing them, asking them on dates, and/or kissing them when they were minors and he was not. You think that’s irrelevant and/or misleading, as corroborating evidence?

    Leviticus (efada1)

  167. Under the Romney standard, there are no elected officials to seat anywhere.

    urbanleftbehind (34153c)

  168. a few years ago, they would have said there was no reason not to trust Robert Bentley, who came in first in that primary, that moore contested,

    narciso (d1f714)

  169. @Leviticus:You think it helps your case that Roy Moore didn’t touch the overage girls?

    NJRob is saying the opposite. The of-age girls are being mentioned to establish a narrative, which makes the under-age one more plausible.

    But for the centerpiece accusation, the only evidence so far is the word of one person. All the other corroboration consists of confirming that Moore knew her, they were in the court the same day, that the young woman said she had a relationship with him. But the actual assault, one person’s word, decades after the fact.

    If the burden is on Moore, to prove a negative 40 years later, because he’s an obnoxious and ignorant bumpkin, well I’d give the Devil the same benefit as I think we should give Moore, for my own safety’s sake. I don’t to see accusations like this become an accepted part of elections.

    Unless he did it and cops to it, that will happen.

    Frederick (53c627)

  170. This is interesting. In an interview with Sean Hannity, Moore said, “I don’t remember dating any girl without the permission of her mother”. Question: How many of you guys dated girls young enough to require a parent’s permission when you were an adult males your early thirties?

    Further, Andrew Kaczynski is reporting this:

    Moore mentioned they’ve have evidence of “collusion” on the story. His wife shared a link on Facebook accusing the WaPo of bribing people & noted an accuser did sign language interpretation at a Clinton rally.

    Moore is reportedly going to release a comprehensive statement very soon.

    Dana (023079)

  171. In the seventies in small towns across the deep south these things were settled with a shotgun or the sheriff. That it wasn’t is what makes me open to the possibility there is more to the story than what we’re told and that this is more about keeping Moore out of the club at all costs than about righting an old wrong. We can sacrifice Moore to the crocs today but that won’t satisfy them. They’ll be back looking for another meal tomorrow. I wish he’d never run and at this point he probably does too.

    crazy (d99a88)

  172. “The of-age girls are being mentioned to establish a narrative, which makes the under-age one more plausible.”

    – Frederick

    I’m not exactly sure what you mean by that, Frederick. Are you using “narrative” in a pejorative sense? Is it somehow suspicious that the Washington Post found more than one girl that Roy Moore pursued (i.e. attempted to date) when she was between the ages of 14-17? Does it buttress or undermine Corfman’s claims to have another woman claim that Moore tried to date her when she was a minor?

    Leviticus (efada1)

  173. “Question: How many of you guys dated girls young enough to require a parent’s permission when you were an adult males your early thirties?”

    – Dana

    Bingo.

    Leviticus (efada1)

  174. honey boo boo could always recant as well

    ohnoes!

    fascist harvardtrash pervert Mitt Romney would never get the garbage stank off

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  175. the party what reveres Bill Clinton’s rapey herpes penis like it was a holy relic has a much much lower standard of evidence for others huh Mr. Leviticus

    i guess it’s cause Bill and his herpes penis went to Yale?

    that’s just my hypothesis i’m not really sure

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  176. *holey* relic

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  177. @Leviticus:. Are you using “narrative” in a pejorative sense?

    No, in a descriptive sense. They have a story to tell about Moore. They have facts in the story more plausible. The facts that might make the story less plausible are not in the story.

    Does it buttress or undermine Corfman’s claims to have another woman claim that Moore tried to date her when she was a minor?

    It is completely irrelevant to those claims, because the accusation is not merely that Moore tried to date her but something much more specific and serious.

    I don’t want to be hard on Corfman in case it really is true.

    My objection here is the standard being used to judge Moore. It could be used against you or I or anyone else–one person will be allowed to accuse you and if it is shocking enough, you will can expect to be treated as though it were true regardless of whether any other evidence appears.

    If he really did do it, well horsewhipping is too good for him. But how is he supposed to defend himself if it isn’t? Is that the kind of polity we want to live in? The tactic will not be limited to bible-thumpin’ rednecks.

    Frederick (53c627)

  178. As for the actual centerpiece accusation, one person’s word.

    It traces back to one person’s word, but the evidence that she told others at an earlier time, with no political motivation reasonably possible at the time, is corroboration. But yes, nobody else was there at the time Moore allegedly “took off her pants and shirt…touched her through her bra and underpants,” and “guided her hand to his underwear.” You’re completely right about that. Also she didn’t videotape it. Also correct. Very good.

    There’s a clip I have seen of someone who dated the woman in 2009 and she told him about it, but I can’t find it right now.

    Add to the mix that Moore says it didn’t happen and also he doesn’t recall it, the gross relationships with other minor girls, and his general nature as a shitbag, and fuck him. It happened, in my constitutionally protected opinion.

    Patterico (115b1f)

  179. Devin Nunes…now we know why you are so adamant..

    http://www.businessinsider.com/devin-nunes-michael-flynn-turkey-russia-2017-11?op=1

    Ben burn (b3d5ab)

  180. My objection here is the standard being used to judge Moore. It could be used against you or I or anyone else–one person will be allowed to accuse you and if it is shocking enough, you will can expect to be treated as though it were true regardless of whether any other evidence appears.

    You’re ignoring the other people she told ages ago.

    Patterico (115b1f)

  181. Rohrabacher?

    Et Tu?

    Ben burn (b3d5ab)

  182. More from Moore’s interview with Hannity:

    “Nobody that abuses a 14-year-old at age 32 or at age 17, it doesn’t matter, if you abuse a 14-year-old you shouldn’t be a Senate candidate,” Moore told Hannity. “I agree with that. But I did not do that.”

    “Allegations of sexual misconduct with her (Corfman) are completely false.” Moore said. “I believe they are politically motivated. I believe they are brought only to stop a very successful campaign, and that’s what they’re doing.”

    Dana (023079)

  183. @Patterico:she told others at an earlier time,

    Told them what, exactly? WaPo only says “she was seeing an older man”, she “identified the man as Moore”, told Wells about “the encounter”.

    The WaPo is letting its readers fill it in, but not saying, exactly what she said when? Did she tell the story of the assault at each of those times? The WaPo does not say yes or no.

    Frederick (53c627)

  184. @Patterico:You’re ignoring the other people she told ages ago

    We’re cross posting. I’m not ignoring them. The Post does not say exactly what she told them.

    Frederick (53c627)

  185. Which is why I made a point to respond to each of your comments directed at me. Just saying your were mistaken would have allowed you to ignore me and let your comment stand. I prefer to clarify and explain further, if necessary, as well as refute and correct. I think that’s good practice all around. Not that we *need* to be right but because we all want and need to be understood and not taken out of context or have any spin attached to our comments.

    Dana (023079) — 11/10/2017 @ 1:34 pm

    Agreed.

    And what if no evidence is found on a 38 year old allegation?

    NJRob (304392)

  186. In the final analysis, no indictment of their candidate will convince the faithful. As Trump once said, “I could stand in the middle of 5th Avenue and shoot somebody and I wouldn’t lose voters.” Or, more to the point, Roy Moore could molest a 14-year-old girl and not lose votes. Because for Republican partisans, their opponents are “the forces of evil,” and anything is preferable to that. Even Donald Trump. Even Roy Moore. So in ostensibly fighting evil, Republicans have become complicit in it.

    This is a party that does not deserve to survive.

    Max Boot, a senior fellow at the Council on Foreign Relations and a member of USA TODAY’s Board of Contributors, is author of the forthcoming book The Road Not Taken: Edward Lansdale and the American Tragedy in Vietnam.

    Ben burn (b3d5ab)

  187. “It is completely irrelevant to those claims, because the accusation is not merely that Moore tried to date her but something much more specific and serious.”

    – Frederick

    I disagree that it is completely irrelevant. I think it is most definitely relevant, though certainly not dispositive. It seems logical to me that a precursor to touching a 14 year old girl as alleged would be interest in 14 year old girls. Finding out that Roy Moore was interested in more than one 14 year old girl seems relevant to me.

    Leviticus (efada1)

  188. corroboration that she told others at an earlier time, with no political motivation reasonably possible at the time, is corroboration

    this is not corroboration

    these are trashy impecunious losers what are likely being paid for their so-called corroboration

    all they have to do is let a WaPo fake news propaganda slut write that “at an earlier time” blah blah blah

    it’s highly unlikely to the point of absurdity that any of the honey boo boos are politically motivated

    if they were this would have come out much much sooner you see

    it’s all financial with these ones

    they won the #nevertrump lotto

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  189. I think NJRob owes Dana an actual apology for his lie*.

    *I would say NJRob merely misspoke, but that might not get a reaction from him, and you have to fight fire with fire, and all that other stupid bullshit.

    Patterico (115b1f) — 11/10/2017 @ 1:42 pm

    I thought you deleted your previous remark agreeing with my interpretation on internet aggression.

    Guess not.

    Actions speak louder than words. Carry on.

    NJRob (304392)

  190. You can listen to Moore’s full interview here.

    Dana (023079)

  191. WaPo only says “she was seeing an older man”, she “identified the man as Moore”, told Wells about “the encounter”.

    Uhhhh…not exactly.

    Betsy Davis, who remains friendly with Corfman and now lives in Los Angeles, says she clearly remembers Corfman talking about seeing an older man named Roy Moore when they were teenagers. She says Corfman described an encounter in which the older man wore nothing but tight white underwear. She says she was firm with Corfman that seeing someone as old as Moore was out of bounds.

    That’s a little more than “the encounter,” my friend. You left out a very important detail there.

    Patterico (115b1f)

  192. @Leviticus:Finding out that Roy Moore was interested in more than one 14 year old girl seems relevant to me.

    Never said it had no relevance whatever–and the article makes it clear the other girls were of-age, and you acknowledged that earlier, so I don’t know where “more than one 14 year old” is coming from. One is plenty bad enough.

    What there IS corroboration for, the interest in a 14-year old, is pretty bad. But the sexual assault is far uncorroborated. Perhaps more evidence will come forth. It’s not unreasonable to wait, on a decades old case, even for someone as unpleasant as Moore.

    Frederick (53c627)

  193. happyfeet is a trashy commenter who is likely being paid for his stream of bullshit.

    I really need to remember to hit my filter bookmark.

    Patterico (115b1f)

  194. NJRob is saying the opposite. The of-age girls are being mentioned to establish a narrative, which makes the under-age one more plausible.

    But for the centerpiece accusation, the only evidence so far is the word of one person. All the other corroboration consists of confirming that Moore knew her, they were in the court the same day, that the young woman said she had a relationship with him. But the actual assault, one person’s word, decades after the fact.

    If the burden is on Moore, to prove a negative 40 years later, because he’s an obnoxious and ignorant bumpkin, well I’d give the Devil the same benefit as I think we should give Moore, for my own safety’s sake. I don’t to see accusations like this become an accepted part of elections.

    Unless he did it and cops to it, that will happen.

    Frederick (53c627) — 11/10/2017 @ 1:56 pm

    Correct and thank you.

    NJRob (304392)

  195. @Patterico:That’s a little more than “the encounter,” my friend. You left out a very important detail there.

    All right, let’s put it in. Still, one person’s word; still, no contemporaneous detail tying what is said today to what was said then.

    Of course it is possible that Moore is guilty. I keep saying that. I also keep saying that the “corroboration” presented is not as cut-and-dried as it is being made out.

    Frederick (53c627)

  196. i’m not getting paid at all well except for i’m kinda at work right now but I stay really caught up with all my stuff

    i’m one of them inbox zero people

    i have to work this weekend though on a few things cause they’re the kind of stuff you want to do when you’re certain you’ll not be interrupted

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  197. Wouldn’t it be wonderful if two camps could be distilled from all these disparate and contradictory positions?

    Consistent honor and principles in one camp. Everyone else in the other..

    Ben burn (b3d5ab)

  198. I thought you deleted your previous remark agreeing with my interpretation on internet aggression.

    That actually is a lie by you.

    I deleted a comment saying Leviticus was being unfair to you. I never ever defended your stupid position on Internet aggression and for you to say I did is a deliberate lie that you need to retract.

    Patterico (115b1f)

  199. Frederick is the Fixer Nutjob.

    Ben burn (b3d5ab)

  200. I also really would present my words being distorted into an attack on Corfman. She could very well be telling the truth. Moore could very well have done it. But what the WaPo has presented is not enough to establish that, and there is not enough detail there for Moore to be able to prove it couldn’t have happened that way, 40 years later.

    And I’d hate to see this become the new normal in elections. Unless he did it, and he cops to it, it will become the new normal, if it is allowed to work. I think we’ll all be worse off then, especially those who are in positions of public trust.

    Frederick (53c627)

  201. Frederick and NJ Rob,

    I think you are both underestimating the importance and probative value of circumstantial evidence. Direct evidence is more persuasive because it is clear and often convincing proof of guilt. A videotape of the incident, an eye witness or a confession is often convincing and can be difficult to rebut.

    On the other hand, circumstantial evidence requires inferences and admittedly can be subject to different interpretations. We see that in this case, but it doesn’t mean that the evidence cannot also be convincing. Showing that Moore, Corfman and her mother were in the places/dates she claimed and doing the things she claims is probative circimstantial evidence that corroborates the rest of her story. Showing that Moore had a pattern of approaching young girls in similar ways is also probative regarding his dating proclivities.

    DRJ (15874d)

  202. All right, let’s put it in. Still, one person’s word; still, no contemporaneous detail tying what is said today to what was said then.

    That last part is just false. I just gave it to you. There is a detail (Roy Moore had an encounter with this girl while she was 14 in which he was wearing only underwear) that ties what she alleges today to what was said then. Not in every respect, but enough to make non-partisans conclude that there is corroboration, rather than do what you are doing: deny there is corroboration and then back off that position and complain in a slippery fashion about the extent of the corroboration.

    Patterico (115b1f)

  203. Standing O for DRJ’s comment.

    Patterico (115b1f)

  204. there’s no evidence lol this is all hearsay

    i deem it slanderous and irrelevant!

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  205. Patterico (115b1f)

  206. “Does it buttress or undermine Corfman’s claims to have another woman claim that Moore tried to date her when she was a minor?”

    – Leviticus

    “It is completely irrelevant to those claims”

    – Frederick

    “Finding out that Roy Moore was interested in more than one 14 year old girl seems relevant to me.”

    – Leviticus

    “Never said it had no relevance whatever”

    – Frederick

    ///

    The other 14 year old I’m talking about is Wendy Miller. We could debate whether not an approach = interest, I suppose – but I think it does. “Wendy Miller says she was 14 and working as a Santa’s helper at the Gadsden Mall when Moore first approached her, and 16 when he asked her on dates.”

    And I agree with you that “What there IS corroboration for, the interest in a 14-year old, is pretty bad.”

    Leviticus (efada1)

  207. @DRJ: Showing that Moore had a pattern of approaching young girls in similar ways is also probative regarding his dating proclivities.

    Yes, but not sexual assault of a minor. There is still only one person’s word for that, and it is not made clear that she told the same story years ago, because the WaPo is not coming out and saying she did.

    Some of the story is corroborated, I agree. But the centerpiece accusation is not, not yet anyway.

    I am not denying the value of circumstantial evidence. I am denying that enough has been presented to just go ahead and treat Moore as though he did it. I know Moore is an awful man. That doesn’t mean he did this specific awful thing, though of course he could have.

    Maybe he murdered a 14-year old girl, how do we know?

    Frederick (53c627)

  208. Any time anything like this happens between two people alone, it is one person’s word against another. What you do is look to surrounding circumstances to see if one account is credible. Here, the accuser’s account is credible on several levels: lack of bias, character of accused, similar behavior by accused, contemporaneous statements to others, cold hard facts that corroborate other aspects of the story, and vague “not generally, no” denials by the accused.

    Moore’s incredible denial in the Hannity that he never even knew Corfman is the cherry on top.

    Patterico (115b1f)

  209. oh my goodness isn’t President Trump a handsome vision in royal blue on the cover of Drudge today

    poor putin looks like such a squidget next to him

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  210. @Leviticus:”“It is completely irrelevant to those claims” does not contradict “Never said it had no relevance whatever”. The sexual assault of a minor claim, Leviticus.

    And I agree with you that “What there IS corroboration for, the interest in a 14-year old, is pretty bad.”

    Glad we agree on that. And I hope we can also agree, that because a man has done ONE KIND of bad thing, is not in itself evidence that he has done something much worse.

    Frederick (53c627)

  211. I am not denying the value of circumstantial evidence.

    Just ignoring it, and then minimizing it when your ignoring it is called out.

    Patterico (115b1f)

  212. Any time anything like this happens between two people alone, it is one person’s word against another.

    especially when anything like this happens thirty years ago but only emerges in a senate race where poor butthurt nevertrump’s candidate lost in the primaries

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  213. Of course this is not a capitulation to the Amazonian wimmens.

    It’s just our recognition of male wretchedness as a function of our lizard-brain, unfortunately hard-wired to the cortex and heavily influencing certain tribal holdouts. We reject the reptilian past….most if us anyway.

    Ben burn (b3d5ab)

  214. A journalist out of ABC33/40 News is now reporting that Mike Ortiz, who dated Corfman around 2009 for two years, said that Corfman told him about a sexual encounter w/ Moore when she was young. He said he believed her then, and continues to do so. He also said that she had struggled internally whether or not to say anything before this point.

    Dana (023079)

  215. Heard Moore with Hannity this afternoon. To his credit, Hannity did not softball this. Moore denied the 14 year old stuff. But on the other women, despite Hannity pressing him if gently, asking if during that time in his life he ever dated girls that young. he started with “I don’t recall”. Having represented people in all similar legal situations, this CANNOT BE AN ‘I DON’T RECALL ‘ RESPONSE. IT HAS TO BE NO, EMPHATICALLY NOT, ABSOLUTELY DIDN’T HAPPEN. Moore also threw in an odd detail that he only dated women after their mothers agreed and consented; that’s very strange unless..they’re underage? That a guy who is a judge and a former DA didn’t grasp that was all I needed to hear. The equivocation is going to crush Moore. Can we get Mo Brooks or even RINO Luther Strange bacK?

    Bugg (08921e)

  216. @Patterico:Just ignoring it, and then minimizing it when your ignoring it is called out.

    I think this criticism unwarranted. I hope that you are not implying bad faith on my part.

    I have, all along, repeatedly, acknowledged that Moore might well be guilty. But I am also paying attention to what the Post is saying implicitly vs explicitly, and emulating your L. A. Times work as well as I can.

    Frederick (53c627)

  217. Elect the child molester!

    Patterico (115b1f)

  218. Patterico (115b1f)

  219. A journalist out of ABC33/40 News is now reporting that Mike Ortiz, who dated Corfman around 2009 for two years, said that Corfman told him about a sexual encounter w/ Moore when she was young. He said he believed her then, and continues to do so. He also said that she had struggled internally whether or not to say anything before this point.

    This is the clip I alluded to earlier. I had seen it but then lost it and could not find it.

    Patterico (115b1f)

  220. @Patterico: The people you cite, and Dana cited, who believe Moore did it but should be elected anyway to strengthen the band of the red monkeys, are utterly reprehensible.

    I certainly would hope that neither of you, nor aphrael, nor Leviticus, will conflate me with them.

    Frederick (53c627)

  221. My objection here is the standard being used to judge Moore. It could be used against you or I or anyone else–one person will be allowed to accuse you and if it is shocking enough, you will can expect to be treated as though it were true regardless of whether any other evidence appears.

    You were indeed ignoring the other evidence at this point in the thread.

    Patterico (115b1f)

  222. regardless of what anyone testifies to it’s pretty obvious Mr. Moore’s for sure the best choice in this race cause he’s the one what loves America the most and he’s the one what can keep America heading in the right direction!

    all these dubious allegations deserve a hall pass given how unsubstantiated they are (obviously)

    there’s two people running you see – Mr. Moore and a filthy democrat, and only one of them has any interest in helping make America great again (Mr. Roy Moore)

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  223. The people you cite, and Dana cited, who believe Moore did it but should be elected anyway to strengthen the band of the red monkeys, are utterly reprehensible.

    I certainly would hope that neither of you, nor aphrael, nor Leviticus, will conflate me with them.

    Nope. You’ve been quite clear to the contrary. I just think you have been minimizing the compelling circumstantial evidence. This is pretty solid stuff.

    Patterico (115b1f)

  224. Much as I want Trump’s agenda to go forward, there is no point to having as weird a guy as Moore in the Senate. 32 year old men who have the ability to get through West Point and law school and pass the bar know damn well who they’re dating or trying to date. His story on Hannity was preposterous.

    Bugg (08921e)

  225. @Patterico:This is pretty solid stuff.

    I think reasonable people can disagree on how solid it is. At any rate thank you for this:

    Nope.

    And as I said, if he really did do it, horsewhipping is too good for him. It would be much better for our political system if he were really guilty, because then there’s a chance this won’t become a tactic.

    Frederick (53c627)

  226. the important thing to remember is how Alabama just has to pick the best person to go to the senate they don’t have to worry about all this #fakenews

    it’s not the important factor in the decision

    plus rooms are cheap right now in Gulf Shores

    you can stay all week for not a lot of money

    they have lotsa nature stuff and you might even see an alligator!

    plus they have froyo by the ounce

    i never really found a Chicago froyo place here yet

    i wonder if you could get an uber there to take you to The Flora-Bama

    all in all I think Alabama has a solid choice in Mr. Roy Moore, someone who’s going to make the good policies

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  227. I think Horowitz’s point regarding how long ago it happened is important. The Post apparently could not find more recent dirt to use. I think the evidence is clear enough that he did do something with those girls. I think his blanket denial ruins his case. He could have easily said he wasn’t a particularly well behaved person back then, but marriage and religion changed him, and that 2017 Moore thinks 1979 Moore was wrong to do it. I would accept that. Of course, I wouldn’t vote for him to begin with, given that he believes the US ought to be a quasi-theocracy.

    kishnevi (e93d54)

  228. And as I said, if he really did do it, horsewhipping is too good for him.

    It’s a safe statement for you to make, since you’ve pretty much established that since he didn’t do it in front of a room full of witnesses, no quantum of evidence will ever be enough for you to conclude it happened.

    Patterico (115b1f)

  229. > I certainly would hope that neither of you, nor aphrael, nor Leviticus, will conflate me with them.

    I am not conflating you with them, and it’s a fair warning, that there’s a risk of doing so.

    aphrael (e0cdc9)

  230. whatever happens I would practice Christian forgiveness on Mr. Moore for sure but that’s silly cause he didn’t do anything wrong!

    first you have to have proof of wrong-doing and there’s none of that to be found just hearsay and unsupported allegations

    part of walking with Jesus means you can forgive Mr. Moore no matter what you think of the evidence

    you certainly don’t have to whip him with a horse whip until his flesh is torn and bloodied

    oh my goodness i hope that’s not the nevertrump vision for America

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  231. ouch

    mg (60b0f7)

  232. Like so many things in recent political debate, this strikes me as hinging heavily on the distinction between *belief* and *knowledge*, and on the defines of the space where we believe something to be true but not with sufficient certainty to convict in a court of law: what kind of social opprobrium is appropriate in such cases?

    I DO NOT accept the proposition that social opprobrium is only appropriate in the presence of enough evidence to convict. Nor do I accept the proposition that any accusation should result in social opprobrium against the accused.

    In THIS CASE, I think there’s sufficient reason to believe the accusations and to apply social opprobrium. I believe that because of the number of women who have come forward, the details they’ve given, and the corroborating evidence from people they’ve talked to over the years.

    Your mileage may, and obviously does, vary.

    aphrael (e0cdc9)

  233. For the record, I think Frederick has debated this in good faith. I don’t have any problem with people parsing these sorts of allegations, but at the same time I think the WaPo story is pretty thoroughly sourced.

    Leviticus (c7071a)

  234. @Patterico: since you’ve pretty much established that since he didn’t do it in front of a room full of witnesses, no quantum of evidence will ever be enough for you to conclude it happened.

    There is nothing I have said that can plausibly construed as this, and I think this characterization is quite unfair.

    A contemporaneous account made by Corfman, with the same level of detail as that made today, related by other people before this became public, would be sufficient for me to think it more likely than not.

    As an example, suppose we got to see the contemporaneous account of Roy Moore in his underwear, and it was limited purely to that: he was in his underwear, but at the time Corfman had said nothing else. Then where would we be with the sexual assault at its level of detail today?

    But if we got to see the contemporaneous account of Roy Moore in his underwear, and it also had the other details we’re hearing about today, I’d say yeah that’s pretty good evidence.

    Maybe we will get to see those details.

    Frederick (53c627)

  235. I believe that because of the number of women who have come forward, the details they’ve given, and the corroborating evidence from people they’ve talked to over the years.

    plus you forgot about the Mateus Rose

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  236. @aphrael:I DO NOT accept the proposition that social opprobrium is only appropriate in the presence of enough evidence to convict.

    My position here, consistently, is that what we have good evidence of is really bad on its own; it’s just I’m not sure we have evidence at that level for the sexual assault of a minor, yet. There are gradations of badness and that a man has stooped to a very low level does not in itself establish that he has also done something else much worse.

    The worst that is going to happen is that he loses an election he thought in the bag. For a guilty man, not nearly bad enough, for as bad as we can obviously see now, probably about right.

    And if other public officials not guilty of the same thing are put through something similar, that would be really bad.

    So in a way I really hope he actually did it, and it would be best if he would admit it.

    Frederick (53c627)

  237. @225

    Elect the child molester!

    Sorry, but that ship sailed a year ago.

    Donald Trump bragged openly about peeping at naked girls, and this was corroborated by at least four of the victims who competed in Miss Teen USA, where the contestants were children as young as 15.

    Dave (445e97)

  238. 11.5% alcohol!

    i’m a look for some at my lil bodega and then come home and ply myself with rose

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  239. The people you cite, and Dana cited, who believe Moore did it but should be elected anyway to strengthen the band of the red monkeys, are utterly reprehensible.

    I certainly would hope that neither of you, nor aphrael, nor Leviticus, will conflate me with them.

    Rest assured, I’m not doing that, Frederick.

    Dana (023079)

  240. Mateus was as big as Red Mountain or Bali Hai, just a dollar more.

    Ben burn (b3d5ab)

  241. nice they ship to Illinois

    bookmarking that for after i move

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  242. The woman who is alleged to have been the 14 year old who “dated” Moore is a Hillary staffer.

    Setup by WaPoo.

    Sorry to see so many Reps join the lynching.

    Mike K (b3dd19)

  243. Plus, Moore’s wife says the WaPoo was offering money for stories like this.

    Mike K (b3dd19)

  244. “Question: How many of you guys dated girls young enough to require a parent’s permission when you were an adult male in your early 30’s?

    If this behavior were morally acceptable to you, then I would expect there would no hesitation to answer in the affirmative. Given that no one has, I’m going to assume that no adult male here dated someone so young as to need parental permission, and that the reason you didn’t date someone that young when you were an adult male was for the very obvious reasons that Moore seemed to have ignored or dismissed.

    Dana (023079)

  245. Link? I’m curious

    Leviticus (c7071a)

  246. (Requesting Mike K’s link)

    Leviticus (c7071a)

  247. @243 As an example, suppose we got to see the contemporaneous account of Roy Moore in his underwear, and it was limited purely to that: he was in his underwear, but at the time Corfman had said nothing else. Then where would we be with the sexual assault at its level of detail today?

    For most people (not you, clearly. F), we’d be pretty much at the same point. I mean, it’s really not about the particulars of sexual assault, is it? It’s about the gross impropriety. Moore’s denied even knowing her (lies) and what’s he doing in his underwear, eh? Really. I mean … really??!! And what precisely is the inference you expect cautious, discerning, fair-minded evaluators to reasonably draw from the posited fact that “at the time Corfman had said nothing else” to her confidant? That it’s more likely than not that she’s lying about that now? A bridge in Brooklyn, for you, my man…

    Q! (86710c)

  248. i didn’t join Dr. Mike I have too much class and intelligence to “join the herd” as they say

    pls to not conflate me!

    but if you gonna conflate me you’d be wise to ply me with some Mateau Rose first

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  249. The woman who is alleged to have been the 14 year old who “dated” Moore is a Hillary staffer.

    Let’s get a link.

    When you produce it, it will turn out to be someone other than the 14-year-old, I predict.

    But we’ll see. That’s why the Internet has links.

    Patterico (115b1f)

  250. (Requesting Mike K’s link)

    Spoiler: it’s not Corfman.

    Patterico (115b1f)

  251. he never said it was corfman

    it’s the 14 year old christmas elf honey boo boo not the bra and underwear honey boo boo

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  252. @Q!:That it’s more likely than not that she’s lying about that now?

    I have very carefully been saying the opposite of this.

    I mean, it’s really not about the particulars of sexual assault, is it? It’s about the gross impropriety.

    What is pretty well established is, I agree, quite bad enough.

    Frederick (53c627)

  253. I’m a fan of internet aggression because trolls run rampant and people argue in bad faith. Politely saying he was mistaken would’ve gotten my remark ignored and his allowed to stand.

    I’m deleting my comment supporting you. I want to encourage good behavior and discourage bad.

    Patterico (115b1f) — 11/10/2017 @ 1:31 pm

    That’s what you wrote in response to my remark. That’s what I’m responding to as i did not see your support.

    NJRob (304392)

  254. he never said it was corfman

    it’s the 14 year old christmas elf honey boo boo not the bra and underwear honey boo boo

    Yeah, I don’t know what the hell you’re talking about. The WaPo article says:

    Debbie Wesson Gibson says she was 17 when Moore spoke to her high school civics class and asked her out on the first of several dates that did not progress beyond kissing.

    What is this 14-year-old stuff? That is Corfman and I have seen zero evidence she has ever worked for Hillary.

    Patterico (115b1f)

  255. oops i got the electric youth honey boo boo confuzzled with the christmas elf honey boo boo

    my bad

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  256. just more dreck from the abetter of the tenez translogistics deal

    https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DOTlXKTWkAAcGj6.jpg

    narciso (d1f714)

  257. This, I’m guessing, must be what Mike K. is referring to.

    Dana (023079)

  258. let’s dance it out

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  259. you know actual established payoff, or Russians actually abetting a disinformatiom campaign,

    narciso (d1f714)

  260. I’m a fan of internet aggression because trolls run rampant and people argue in bad faith. Politely saying he was mistaken would’ve gotten my remark ignored and his allowed to stand.

    I’m deleting my comment supporting you. I want to encourage good behavior and discourage bad.

    Patterico (115b1f) — 11/10/2017 @ 1:31 pm

    That’s what you wrote in response to my remark. That’s what I’m responding to as i did not see your support.

    Nope and nope.

    First, your quote is missing blockquote tags. Here’s how my comment actually read:

    I’m a fan of internet aggression because trolls run rampant and people argue in bad faith. Politely saying he was mistaken would’ve gotten my remark ignored and his allowed to stand.

    I’m deleting my comment supporting you. I want to encourage good behavior and discourage bad.

    The way you quoted it just now, you made it sound like I am the one who said: “I’m a fan of internet aggression…” But I was quoting you, and I used a blockquote tag to make that clear.

    Now. Here is what I deleted:

    I do think that he has a point about Leviticus being wrong here, though. Leviticus, folks are making a more subtle argument than you are giving them credit for, I think.

    Not praise for your Internet aggression. I never praised your Internet aggression. So take that back.

    Patterico (115b1f)

  261. Trump prolly hit that

    urbanleftbehind (34153c)

  262. you know the whole bit of covering with a pillow,

    http://datechguyblog.com/2017/11/09/roy-moore-wapo-and-the-problem-with-an-untrustworthy-press/

    then you have the particular reporter, who has some credibility issues, but since we’re in macho grande electric boogaloo,

    narciso (d1f714)

  263. So, what to do?

    Should the Democrats, who orchestrated the timing of this, be allowed to run a candidate unopposed? When this happened in New Jersey, a court ordered the state to reprint the ballots with a new candidate’s name.

    Of course, that was to favor the Democrats. Not the same thing here.

    Kevin M (752a26)

  264. Roy Moore says “I don’t remember dating any girl without the permission of her mother”

    This is just too weird for words.

    Kevin M (752a26)

  265. This, I’m guessing, must be what Mike K. is referring to.

    Yes. And how is that the 14-year-old accuser we have been talking about, whose name is Leigh Corfman and not Deborah Gibson? Mike K says “The woman who is alleged to have been the 14 year old who ‘dated’ Moore is a Hillary staffer.” Gibson is described as having been 17 in the WaPo story. Corfman is described as having been 17.

    Patterico (115b1f)

  266. who orchestrated the timing of this, ?

    Eh? Cascading gravitas is Harvey Weinstein.

    Ben burn (b3d5ab)

  267. Not praise for your Internet aggression. I never praised your Internet aggression. So take that back.

    Patterico (115b1f) — 11/10/2017 @ 3:52 pm

    I take it back.

    NJRob (304392)

  268. So, what to do?

    Should the Democrats, who orchestrated the timing of this, be allowed to run a candidate unopposed? When this happened in New Jersey, a court ordered the state to reprint the ballots with a new candidate’s name.

    Of course, that was to favor the Democrats. Not the same thing here.

    Moore is going to stay on the ballot and he will be elected.

    Patterico (115b1f)

  269. I take it back.

    Thank you.

    Patterico (115b1f)

  270. @Kevin M:So, what to do?

    If he wins the Senate should refuse to seat him. They shouldn’t allow him to sully their order.

    But all kidding aside, the Senate should refuse to seat him if he wins.

    Frederick (53c627)

  271. People in AL are posting on #RoyMoore‘s FB page that this “brave” woman – Leigh Corfman, has claimed several pastors at various churches have made sexual advances toward her.

    oh my goodness this is an internet fact that really changes how i perceive this entire story

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  272. The Gibson woman is a Hillary campaign worker.

    Red State, of course, is all aboard with the accuser.

    TDS is heavy around here,

    We’ll see if anything comes out about Corfman. I suspect Gloria Allred turned her down.

    Mike K (b3dd19)

  273. these honey boo boos seem to be women of wretchedly poor character Dr. Mike

    it hurts my heart to see them lie and sin like this when all Jesus wants to do is forgive them

    all they have to do is tell the truth and ask Him to walk with them on their faith journey together and they’ll finally know the peace and Love what has been so elusive in their lives

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  274. that no one has, I’m going to assume that no adult male here dated someone so young as to need parental permission, and that the reason you didn’t date someone that young when you were an adult male was for the very obvious reasons that Moore seemed to have ignored or dismissed.

    It’s not as weird as it sounds. I didn’t grow up in the South, but I was a college student at a college in the South with a high number of Southern students. For a considerable number of them, the protocol of dating involved introducing the young gentleman to the young lady’s family for their approval, if he was not already known to them, no later than the time he showed up to escort her on their first date–no matter how old she was. The determining factor was whether she lived under her parents’ roof. For those young ladies who were from out of town, the dormitory staff usually served as parental substitute.
    Of course we were much closer in age to Corfman than Moore, but this was the late seventies, and the rules probably lasted longer in rural Alabama than in suburban Atlanta.

    kishnevi (417b3c)

  275. The Gibson woman is a Hillary campaign worker.

    So your comment was wrong, as I predicted.

    Patterico (115b1f)

  276. Mike K:

    TDS is heavy around here,

    Trump opposed Moore and supported Luther Strange. By Mike K’s standards, Donald Trump has TDS.

    DRJ (15874d)

  277. grand mormon wizard Mitt Romney must have issued a fatwah

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  278. TDS is heavy around here,

    Always an intellectually lazy way to avoid actual discussion and consideration of very valid points that might contradict one’s perception or view of things. Always disappointing when a commenter with much to offer has on default setting.

    Dana (023079)

  279. Further, not only did Trump support Strange, but his position is:

    I The president also believes that if these allegations are true, Judge Moore will do the right thing and step aside.

    By Mike K’s standards, Trump has a double shot of TDS.

    Dana (023079)

  280. Uou know they should lose this seat and thr one on tennessee (talk about earning the blount treatment) give up a generational opportunity and they can roger themselves (I think thAt the British expression. Did you not recall the garbage they threw at sessions, to keep him off the bench, the games played to insure recusal

    narciso (d1f714)

  281. Circumstantial evidence is good. Unless it’s planted. Because it does not lie. DNA is circumstantial evidence. So are fingerprints. Found standing over a dead body with a smoking gun in your hand — the best.

    What we mostly have is direct evidence. Women who say this happened. And try to bolster it with their prior consistent statements: “Well, I’ve said it more than once, and that means I’m telling the truth.” Good only if you believe them. If you disregard the circumstantial evidence that somebody in Alabama organized them and served them up to the WaPo reporter on a silver platter: “No, no, these women did not come to us, no sir. Why, we just heard about them and sought them out ourselves.”

    nk (dbc370)

  282. And we wonder why Chicago has a crime problem, good grief

    narciso (d1f714)

  283. Good point, nk. We can’t rule out that this is part of a convenient scheme targeting Moore, but it seems to be a scheme with an element of truth.

    DRJ (15874d)

  284. And you are right that some evidence is direct evidence.

    DRJ (15874d)

  285. @nk:Circumstantial evidence is good.

    Probably you know it, but my favorite quote about it is Thoreau’s: “Some circumstantial evidence is very strong, as when you find a trout in the milk.”

    Frederick (53c627)

  286. As when you find the trout in the milk. Not when somebody says “nk put a trout in my milk”. The second is direct evidence and worth only as much as the person saying it.

    nk (dbc370)

  287. #WBRC just spoke to Leigh Corfman, Roy Moore’s accuser. “I stand by my comments. The article is very detailed, anyone with questions should please re-read it. And I want to say thank you to my friends and others who have supported me and my story.”https://mobile.twitter.com/bshelburne/status/929072419544928257

    Dana (023079)

  288. she was probably paid extra to say “i stand by my comments”

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  289. Creepy; in 1835, Edgar Allen Poe, then 26, obtained a license to marry his 13-year-old cousin Virginia Clemm. They were married for eleven years until her early death…

    ‘Quoth the Raven’Nevermore…’ birds of a feather, eh Judge.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  290. Sammy: Her mother seems to corroborate that he babysat her.

    134. Frederick (53c627) — 11/10/2017 @ 12:28 pm

    Yes. That is what we have witnesses to.

    I haven’t seen them quoted, but I didn’t read all the stories or the whole WP Post story. If so, the question is, how good are those witnesses? Did anyone actually corroborate that offered to stay with her daughter, arguing that she shouldn’t hear all the details in court, and hat she agreed? Who would remember that, if this wasn’t anything special?

    135. happyfeet (28a91b) — 11/10/2017 @ 12:32 pm

    “seems to corroborate” – where are the papers proving what date this allegedly happened

    It is claimed taht they were in the court in the same date. I can see how a frame-up could have been put together.

    Now Moore would have been there almost every day. So we only need someone, willing to lie, who could plausibly have been in the courthouse on any date during 1979. It might be actually that there are no records of what dates Moore made an appearance before a judge. If there are, and this is faked, it could be that the hours don’t coincide – he is before a judge at the time Leigh s mother was also before a judge. Now they don’t say anything happened that day, beyond obtaining a telephone number.

    Now, did she have a separate telephone? They are rather poor. Whose number was this? That’s got to explained too. True, 1979 was still in the era of AT&T and universal service, but Ma Bell did charge something for installation, and also for the phone service. Fourteen is a bit young to have her own telephone number.

    Especially if they are poor.

    If it is a household number, how does he know who’s going to answer the phone?

    Sammy Finkelman (8b8667)

  291. There’s another thing. If true, Moore would almost certainly remember this because it would be the only time he did anything like this. And now he says he always asked the mother’s permission. (that can be corroborated or not)

    Well, her mother was just about his age – one year older. So imagine he told her. She’s 33 he’s 32,.

    If so, wouldn’t she say to him: You’re not interested in me, you’re interested in my daughter?!!

    I could see him maybe trying to get close to the mother, although he usually dated younger women.

    Sammy Finkelman (8b8667)

  292. People in AL are posting on #RoyMoore‘s FB page that this “brave” woman – Leigh Corfman, has claimed several pastors at various churches have made sexual advances toward her. oh my goodness this is an internet fact that really changes how i perceive this entire story
    happyfeet (28a91b) — 11/10/2017 @ 4:10 pm

    She must give off a vibe. Like moths drawn to a road flare. Or she’s a liar.

    Pinandpuller (2e01d0)

  293. Uou know they should lose this seat and thr one on tennessee (talk about earning the blount treatment) give up a generational opportunity and they can roger themselves (I think thAt the British expression. Did you not recall the garbage they threw at sessions, to keep him off the bench, the games played to insure recusal
    narciso (d1f714) — 11/10/2017 @ 5:18 pm

    Corker can get kicked right in the fanny, I think that’s the Brit term.

    Pinandpuller (2e01d0)

  294. Now, did she have a separate telephone…Fourteen is a bit young to have her own telephone number…how does he know who’s going to answer the phone?

    Single Mom, latchkey kid.

    If so, wouldn’t she say to him: You’re not interested in me, you’re interested in my daughter?!!

    I could see him maybe trying to get close to the mother, although he usually dated younger women.
    Sammy Finkelman (8b8667) — 11/11/2017 @ 6:24 pm

    Mrs Brown you’ve such a lovely daughter.

    Was he uninterested in going the step-dad route?

    Pinandpuller (2e01d0)

  295. Walden Pond had trout?

    I’ve heard of milking trout but you probably wouldn’t enjoy it.

    Pinandpuller (2e01d0)


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