Patterico's Pontifications

10/21/2017

Saturday Sports Open Thread

Filed under: General — JVW @ 12:12 pm

[guest post by JVW]

Who would ever have thought that Alabama would be a 35-point favorite over Tennessee, even in Tuscaloosa? General Neyland must be rolling over in his grave.

I’m looking forward to USC-Notre Dame later today. One of those teams is likely going to be eliminated from the BCS Playoff picture.

Michigan-Penn State should be interesting too. I pointed out earlier this month that this begins a hellacious three-game swing for the Nittany Lions, with road games against Ohio State and Michigan State coming up next.

Game 7 of the American League Championship Series is this evening. Winner goes on to play the Dodgers in the World Series. I unabashedly hate the yankees, so go Astros!

Leave all sports-related observations in the comments.

– JVW

99 Responses to “Saturday Sports Open Thread”

  1. Number three Cal his taking care of number two UCLA in men’s water polo.

    JVW (42615e)

  2. 40 years ago tomorrow the #11 Domers came out in green and did a job on my #5 Trojans (no they weren’t undefeated, the Tide had beaten them 21-20 two weeks earlier)….one day after my 20th birthday.

    I was painting the dean’s living room for extra cash (yes I worked my way through school, no loans or handouts) and he was cool enough to set up a TV….but that one was painful.

    Have a few friends who are in South Bend today, hope they get a win to enjoy.

    Fight On!!

    harkin (10a18c)

  3. I bleed Dodger Blue, and am waiting to see who they beat. As I said on the other thread, both the Yankees and the Astros have their attractions.

    Still, this IS the best Dodger team I’ve ever seen. That includes the Koufax/Drysdale/Wills/Roseboro/Gilliam era (3 times world champs), the Garvey/Cey/Lopes/Russell Dodgers (1-2 WS all against the damn Yankees), and the ’88 miracle team.

    Kevin M (752a26)

  4. USC-Notre Dame

    Yeah, that should be good. And traditional.

    Kevin M (752a26)

  5. Koufax, Drysdale, Wills, Roseboro is my team. Every record and Series win after 60s should have an asterisk (steroids and HGH)

    Ben burn (b3d5ab)

  6. Still, this IS the best Dodger team I’ve ever seen. That includes the Koufax/Drysdale/Wills/Roseboro/Gilliam era. . .

    Woah! That’s quite an assertion. I’m actually now reading The Last Innocents about the Dodger teams of the 60s. Good book.

    I think for the World Series I’ll put up a post on the best baseball books I have read. Would that be of interest to anyone?

    JVW (42615e)

  7. Popeye and the Penguin were good but get a load of the bulk…not definition of muscle structure.

    Ben burn (b3d5ab)

  8. Oh ‘dem pinstripes: Ruth, Gehrig, DiMaggio, Mantle, Maris, Munson, Mattingly, Guidry, Rizzuto, Winfield, Jeter, Huggins, Torre & Stengel; ARod, Billy & Reggie, Whitey, Elston, Yogi… and on and on. Everybody loves to hate the New York Yankees– most World Series: 27.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  9. JVW,

    Consider the following batters, from a pitcher’s POV:

    Taylor, Seager, Hernandez, Bellinger, Turner, Puig, Grandal or Barnes,… plus a deep bench that includes folks who are starters on many other teams. Then consider the pitching, as good as it’s ever been. Maybe pitching was better in other years, especially starters, but not THAT much better. I’d take Kershaw over Drysdale. And nobody’s juiced.

    Kevin M (752a26)

  10. Oh ‘dem pinstripes

    None of those guys are playing this year. Although I have to admit Aaron Judge is pretty good.

    Kevin M (752a26)

  11. Greetings:

    Doesn’t anybody know who Warren Spahn is any more ???

    I grew up in the Bronx of the ’50s and ’60s about a mile or so due north of the House that Ruth Built. When October came around we would get up early and get down there and in line for some bleacher seats. Back then regular season bleacher seats were 75 cents but for the Series they went for $2.10.

    11B40 (6abb5c)

  12. Doesn’t anybody know who Warren Spahn is any more ???

    Spahn and Sain, and pray for rain.

    JVW (42615e)

  13. Let’s Go Yankees!

    That is all.

    NJRob (336bc4)

  14. I have tickets for SC Arizona, which is the 4th and Homecoming but I read the threats about ANTIFI riots and don;t know that I want to be in Downtown LA that day.

    I listed them for sale on StuHub again and we probably won’t go although we do have plans to be in Orange County that weekend.

    Good seats if anyone is interested.

    Mike K (b3dd19)

  15. Warren Spahn, pitcher in the greatest pitcher’s duel ever, against Juan Marichal. Willie Mays ended it with a homer.

    Charlie Davis (df08d0)

  16. Marichal, The bat-wielding punk who fought off John Roseboro with Frisco courage?

    Ben burn (b3d5ab)

  17. @11. But you can bet their in the minds of the Yanks taking the field.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  18. I have tickets for SC Arizona, which is the 4th and Homecoming but I read the threats about ANTIFI riots and don;t know that I want to be in Downtown LA that day.

    Hadn’t heard about that. Is that because of the anniversary of the election?

    JVW (42615e)

  19. @12. Ticket prices were ‘welcoming’ back in the day. Mother, gramps and my late father kept their tickets from the 1960 World Series games at Forbes Field between the Pirates and Yankees – they saw the Maz homer. Price per ticket- all of about $8. Among some of my late grandfather’s papers we found his two ticket stubs from the 1925 World Series at Forbes as well. Price was around $5. Best memories for me from them days was meetin’ Maz and Clemente and watchin’em play at Forbes. Sad day when Forbes Field was torn down. Brother got a bleacher seat from it in his den.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  20. I’d be interested in your review, JVW, but I hate to ask people to post. It can be a chore to write well enought to make it look easy, as you do. Plus, I’m more of a football fan than a baseball fan so I won’t be your most discerning reader.

    As for football, my Longhorns are continuing to pull defeat from the jaws of victory, but I am very optimistic about our new coach. He has brought back the drive to win and has the ability to make it happen. I hope he will develop the coaching skills that TCU’s Gary Patterson has. I’m glad he doesn’t look like a deer-in-the-headlights like some coaches.

    I think K State can upset OU.

    DRJ (15874d)

  21. @11. Postscript. The Astros do have good pitching this year. Should be a good game.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  22. Greetings, DCSCA: ( @20 (797bc0) — 10/21/2017 @ 2:22 pm)

    I saw Clemente play in the Series at the Stadium. We were in the right field corner of the bleachers. He didn’t get a warm reception for a number of reasons. Playing ability was one.

    The good Sisters of Mercy would bring B&W TVs into the classrooms when the Yankees were in the Series and let us watch some of the game until dismissal. World Series day-games were still legal back then.

    During the school year, but not the summers, the ushers at the Stadium would let us in for free after 3 o’clock to see a couple of innings. I was about a six-minute miler back then with books and in a shirt and tie.

    11B40 (6abb5c)

  23. 16. Charlie Davis

    That was an amazing game, before the days of pitch counts.

    https://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes/SFN/SFN196307020.shtml

    I think one is a close second.

    http://www.baseball-almanac.com/boxscore/05261959.shtml

    Both featured the great Braves teams of Aaron, Matthews and Crandall.

    JoeH (f94276)

  24. I just returned from a funeral in So. Cal. today, and in honor of the deceased, who was an ardent lifelong Dodger fan, everyone in the family, extended family and close friends wore Dodger jerseys with various player’s names. Kershaw, Gagne, Bellinger, and even Rafael Furcal. The large spray of flowers at the front of the church was made up of only blue and white flowres with a Dodger sash across it. Talk about bleeding Blue.

    Dana (023079)

  25. @23. LOL. That’s a great story about Clemente. He, Stagell and Alou put up w/a lot back in the day. Back then, in Pgh, radio was still a fun way to enjoy the games, too, rather than the ol’ b/w TV as you could listen to some great play-by-play outdoors. You could walk up and down the neighborhood and hear KDKA’s Rosey Rosewell — and the great Bob Price– giving play-by play as the folks did their yardwork or were sippin’ Iron City Beer on the patio and front steps. Just thinking about it is relaxing.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  26. JoeH,

    I watched the Braves throughout college and law school in the late ’70’s. I liked to study at night with the TV on, and the choices were the PTL Club with Jim and Tammy Faye Baker or reruns of the Braves (in season) on WTBS. The announcers were great, especially Skip Carey. Good announcers but just enough home-cooking to make it fun, like Bob Ueker in Major League.

    DRJ (15874d)

  27. ^Stargell. Typo.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  28. Yikes, Dana. Different but a little endearing, too.

    DRJ (15874d)

  29. @26.Sorry- typos- Willie Stargell and Bob Prince.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  30. It was very endearing, DRJ. We were a bit surprised as it was a traditional Catholic mass, but the more his remaining 5 older siblings shared about him and the presence of the Dodgers in their years growing up together, the more it made perfect sense. It was indeed, the perfect send-off.

    Dana (023079)

  31. That’s nice. It wasn’t his obsession, but a family tradition. I like that.

    DRJ (15874d)

  32. I would have searched high and low for a Bob Welch jersey had I attended that funeral, Dana. May your friend rest in peace.

    JVW (42615e)

  33. Alabama reminds me of the way Texas used to be in the SWC. Texas had a virtual monopoly on the great Texas high school players, so the games were almost boring and the fans completely spoiled. Now the Big 12, the successor to the SWC, still has great players but they are spread out among the schools and the is more parity. I think that’s why the Big 12 teams don’t often go undefeated and they have a harder time getting national notice.

    DRJ (15874d)

  34. Doesn’t anybody know who Warren Spahn is any more ???

    Milwaukee Braves all-star pitcher in the 60’s. I remember seeing a game between Spahn and Koufax on TV. Couldn’t tell you who won, but there were an awful lot of strikeouts.

    Kevin M (752a26)

  35. Marichal, The bat-wielding punk who fought off John Roseboro with Frisco courage?

    Roseboro was saying some quite unkind things. Didn’t deserve the beating, but wasn’t totally innocent.

    Kevin M (752a26)

  36. The Army Black Knights beat the Temple Owls 31-28, in overtime, this afternoon. CBS Sports Network (Channel 221 on Direct TV) broadcasts most service academy home games.

    Army epitomizes the way college football ought to be played, in a small, friendly stadium, with players who will never play in the NFL. If you want to see great college football, watch the Black Knights!

    The football fan Dana (0c82d7)

  37. Army epitomizes the way college football ought to be played, in a small, friendly stadium, with players who will never play in the NFL. If you want to see great college football, watch the Black Knights!

    I’m dying to go to West Point and watch a game at Michie Stadium on a glorious fall afternoon in the Hudson River Valley one of these days, Dana.

    JVW (42615e)

  38. Roseboro was saying some quite unkind things. Didn’t deserve the beating, but wasn’t totally innocent.

    That’s locker room stuff. Everyone chatters but to take a bat to bare hands is chickensh”t.

    Ben burn (b3d5ab)

  39. Trojans getting worked so far…..is Anthony Davis available?

    harkin (be4c6e)

  40. The Naval Academy has two Heisman Trophy winners: Joe Ballino and Roger Stauback. Both played professional football, Joe with the Boston Patriots and Roger with the Cowboys.

    PS: in ’59 with Ballino running the ball NAVY beat Army something like 42 to 13. I was in the stands on the Navy side.

    ropelight (bbe920)

  41. Miss the twilight aspect of the usual 2:30 central ND start, much like a 4:00p men’s final at the US Open, it was a good contest if it ends in darkness.

    urbanleftbehind (880d45)

  42. Football fan Dana: some of them do play pro football, after fulfilling their service requirements
    http://goarmywestpoint.com/news/2015/9/9/FB_0909151926.aspx
    Villaneuva being the guy who stood for the anthem a couple of weeks ago.
    There were three or four others drafted by the NFL in previous years. This Wikipedia list contains athletes in all sports who attained some sort of distinction
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_sportspeople_educated_at_the_United_States_Military_Academy
    Oddly a Naval Academy athlete is included. And I suppose, although he was Navy basketball, David Robinson might be mentioned.

    Did you know Patton was an Olympic athlete?

    kishnevi (07cb64)

  43. Equestrian or fencing, the spoiled little rich dilettante?

    nk (dbc370)

  44. Both and three more.

    For his skill with running and fencing, Patton was selected as the Army’s entry for the first modern pentathlon at the 1912 Olympic Games in Stockholm, Sweden. Of 42 competitors, Patton placed twenty-first on the pistol range, seventh in swimming, fourth in fencing, sixth in the equestrian competition, and third in the footrace, finishing fifth overall and first among the non-Swedish competitors.

    nk (dbc370)

  45. After the first half of the Noter Dame game, I doubt anyone is interested in my tickets.

    I have not seen them this sloppy before.

    I remember Warran Spahn and even remember Sammy Baugh when he was Redskin quarterback.

    He was known as “slinging Sammy Baugh” because he threw the ball so hard. Once he thought a linebacker was too aggressive rushing him and threw the ball right at his face,. Knocked him out.

    Before face masks.

    Mike K (b3dd19)

  46. That’s nice, but somebody paid our high school $140,000 for the naming rights to the athletic field, so there.

    nk (dbc370)

  47. Sammy Baugh played quarterback for TCU and was inducted into the charter class of the pro football Hall of Fame.

    DRJ (15874d)

  48. Roger Staubach, ropelight. Among his many accomplishments, including the 1963 Heisman you mentioned, what impresses me most is that he served his Navy commitment before joining the Cowboys in 1969.

    DRJ (15874d)

  49. I like Wisconsin. They play good team ball and have some deceptive speed.

    DRJ (15874d)

  50. Given his roots in the Cincinnati area and his post football career business success, I wished Staubach would have put a group together to rescue the Bengals from the younger Browns; maybe he had too much respect for old man Paul Brown.

    urbanleftbehind (847a06)

  51. Wisconsin uses its natural instate strengths well, big linemen and skill position players from metro Madison, Racine/Kenosha plus strong recruiting touch in the East. Interestly, north Milwaukee is not as productive for football talent as Cleveland, Detroit, Indy or the South side and suburbs of Chicago.

    urbanleftbehind (847a06)

  52. Staubach was so identified with and beloved in Dallas that it’s hard for me to picture him going anywhere else.

    DRJ (15874d)

  53. Sammy Baugh still holds the NFL record for single-season punting average, 51.4 yards per kick in 1940. Granted the ball was slightly rounder in those days, but that’s still an impressive feat for a guy who was also the best quarterback of his era.

    JVW (42615e)

  54. That 1940 season, by the way, was the year that the Chicago Bears absolutely pole-axed Baugh’s Redskins in the NFL Championship game 73-0. Early in the game with the Bears up 7-0, the Redskins drove down deep into Bears territory. A Washington receiver dropped a touchdown pass from Baugh in the endzone and the Redskins failed to score on that possession. After the game, Baugh was asked by a reporter if that blown TD might have made a difference in the game. Baugh looked at him and said, “Yeah, it would’ve made the final score 73-7.”

    JVW (42615e)

  55. I loved Forbes Field. Saw Clements triple against Cecil Upshaw with 2 outs in the bottom of the ninth. Al Oliver then struck out.

    Ipso Fatso (17a3ec)

  56. Correction: Clemente.

    Ipso Fatso (17a3ec)

  57. SC is embarrassing tonight. 49 to 14 in the 4th quarter.

    I have not thought they were as good as the rankng all season.

    I have had SC season tickets since 1956, with two years our for Uncle Sam. This might be the worst game.

    Interesting that there were NFL ads all through the game. I think they are hurting bad.

    Mike K (b3dd19)

  58. I have had SC season tickets since 1956, with two years our for Uncle Sam. This might be the worst game.

    And they still have to face Arizona and Khalil Tate in two weeks. Tate already has 128 yards and a TD rushing, and the fourth quarter has only just begun.

    JVW (42615e)

  59. @58. Yes– beautiful, old school ball park; big, manual scoreboard and that Longines clock perched on top.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  60. Astros!!!!

    urbanleftbehind (847a06)

  61. Congrats to the Astros. Played good ball; they can take LA.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  62. Astros win!!!

    No disrespect but I did not want to see Yankees in the series.

    Astros bully not as good.

    GO DODGERS!!

    harkin (be4c6e)

  63. Congratulations to Beldar and whoever else is an Astros fan.

    I’m going to go throw up now.

    NJRob (336bc4)

  64. So weird, who ever thought there would be a Dodgers/Astros series.

    Last post season game I went to was Dodgers over Astros when they came back from two games down behind Hooten and Fernando and then Jerry Reuss shut them out and they beat Nolan Ryan in game 5.

    harkin (be4c6e)

  65. Astros!

    DRJ (15874d)

  66. Rob, at least you can console yourself with the knowledge that the Yankees got further than the Red Sox.

    kishnevi (b9b7a2)

  67. That is a good victory, against a worthy opponent. Beating the Dodgers will be anti-climactic.

    nk (dbc370)

  68. The Sawx-Yanks rivalry will definitely heat up next year.

    NJRob (c584ca)

  69. So weird, who ever thought there would be a Dodgers/Astros series.

    At the end of the regular season I thought these two were the best teams in their respective leagues. I expected a bit more from the Indians, who I thought were pretty close to the Astros, but when you consider the season in total from start to finish these are the two most deserving teams.

    JVW (42615e)

  70. Get your geah right heah
    https://www.chowdaheadz.com
    The one team they don’t carry licensed merchandise from is the Patriots.

    kishnevi (b9b7a2)

  71. Rob, at least you can console yourself with the knowledge that the Yankees got further than the Red Sox.

    It’s true, I confess, but the Red Sox go down in the history books as the Eastern Division champs for 2017.

    JVW (42615e)

  72. @ kish (#48): I’m glad you fixed that link because I loved reading that story about the homecoming queen kicking the game-winning field goal.

    @ DRJ: Agreed re Coach Herman and the ‘Horns, also re Staubach (and for precisely the same reasons).

    It is enormously gratifying to Houstonians to watch our Astros beat the Yankees for the AL pennant. The Yankees played hard and well, and both teams have a great deal to be proud of, but only one goes on.

    Beldar (fa637a)

  73. “I expected a bit more from the Indians, who I thought were pretty close to the Astros, but when you consider the season in total from start to finish these are the two most deserving teams.”

    I was speaking more as an old fud who still thinks of the Astros as a NL team.

    Back in the Ryan/mike scott/JR Richard days they had some great games in the NL west against the Dodgers.

    harkin (be4c6e)

  74. 60 – “I have had SC season tickets since 1956, with two years our for Uncle Sam. This might be the worst game.”

    Mistakes mistakes mistakes from beginning to end, that really was as ugly as it gets.

    Helton needs to get these kids back to fundamentals ASAFP.

    harkin (be4c6e)

  75. SC could have come back with 55 unanswered points in the second half. But they didn’t.

    Kevin M (752a26)

  76. So, it’s the Astros. And yes, that IS weird since they used to be in the same NL division.

    I’m pretty sure this Dodger team could beat anyone; they’re 7-1 so far and the one they lost was 3-2, all solo home runs. It’s just too bad it’s impossible to keep a team together anymore.

    Kevin M (752a26)

  77. SC could have come back with 55 unanswered points in the second half.

    I tried to say that in comment 40……..and the first TD of that 55 was in the first half.

    harkin (be4c6e)

  78. harkin, we are an ND family, and were present at the game years ago when Anthony Davis ran over our boys like a runaway freight train. Unbelievable!

    So I hope the Irish Catholics win today!

    Patricia (5fc097)

  79. “So I hope the Irish Catholics win today!”

    I have good news for you…..

    harkin (be4c6e)

  80. She meant the Patriots, of course.

    Completely useless fact:

    If you go by “Irish/Irish descent” Boston is the sixth biggest Irish city in the world.
    But New York City takes the fifth place.

    (I heard that quite a while back. It may no longer be true. For all I know, it never was true. But it would certainly be truthy.)

    kishnevi (bb03e6)

  81. Btw raised Catholic (St Bruno’s) and grew up in the SoCal football community where the loyalties to both are incredible. I never hated ND as so many SC fans do and usually root for them against anybody else.

    When I was a kid my Sunday football routine started by watching the ND replay of the previous day’s game from the old Mizlou Network on one of the locals.

    harkin (be4c6e)

  82. We always say the ND Irish Catholics with a wink. Not too many of them left at the Dome. :)

    Patricia (5fc097)

  83. The SC game last night was the opening scene of a very ugly season. Arizona beat Cal in double OT.

    Helton and his assistants are on thin ice. The execution was awful and showed a lot of poor coaching. There have been comments about Helton being a pal to the players and maybe that was a factor.

    Chip Kelly is just over the horizon.

    Cal beat WSU which beat SC.

    Long season after high hopes.

    Mike K (b3dd19)

  84. “We always say the ND Irish Catholics with a wink

    ND is the only team I’ve ever heard described thusly, thanks for clearing that up.

    harkin (be4c6e)

  85. 85, overall student body or the teams? I suppose the Italians, Poles, non-luth. Germans and Croats long ago rivaled the true Irish.

    urbanleftbehind (847a06)

  86. I’m so old I remember a time in SoCal when most priests were Irish and most gardeners were Japanese.

    harkin (be4c6e)

  87. The ND love is deep on my mom’s side of the family from their Chicago proper days and the flag always flies somewhere in my generations now-homeland of NW Indiana. When my uncle had his funeral mass in Lowell, IN decorum and my pallbearing kept me from photographing nearby homesvfukly decked out in blue and gold.

    urbanleftbehind (847a06)

  88. Internment turned the Japanese American from Italians into Jews.

    urbanleftbehind (847a06)

  89. The ND love is deep on my mom’s side of the family from their Chicago proper days

    My father was a big ND fan, as were lots of men who had never graduated from high school, let alone ND.

    Chicago supplies the fans for Green Bay and Notre Dame.

    Mike K (b3dd19)

  90. urbanleftbehind, both team and students. Chicago still has what they call The Irish Mafia, guys who went to school there together and support each other in business, etc.

    People in my father’s and grandfather’s generation felt ND was the one place they could go and succeed because of anti-Catholic bias. So, it enabled many Irish to move up the economic ladder.

    Patricia (5fc097)

  91. Greetings, Patricia: ( #93 (5fc097) —10/22/2017 @ 1:24 pm )

    New York City’s ND fans, both real and imagined attendees, are oft times (or were) referred to as the “Subway Alumni”.

    It’s sad to see how far ND, Georgetown, and others have drifted in their faith.

    11B40 (6abb5c)

  92. Trump did the NFL owners a favor by focusing on the take a knee protests. He hurt their bottom lines in the short run, but now they can credibly tell the player’s union that their paychecks will suffer if they keep this up. That gives the owners cover and will divide the players. The owners will end up benefiting the most of this goes away.

    DRJ (15874d)

  93. He hurt their bottom lines in the short run, but now they can credibly tell the player’s union that their paychecks will suffer if they keep this up. That gives the owners cover and will divide the players. The owners will end up benefiting the most of this goes away.”

    Totally agree that even the players are not stupid enough to miss what this is doing to the crowds and TV audience. Do they want to lose money for alienating the fan base over a fake outrage? I sure wouldn’t think so.

    But the brand is in the toilet. That cant be good for the owners.

    harkin (be4c6e)

  94. I agree, but I figure most of the owners think they can hold out longer than the players, and the fans will ultimately come back.

    DRJ (0280d9)

  95. Greetings:

    My mother had an interpersonal relations playbook that was about the size of one of those NFL binders. A couple of her favorites were “Nipping it in the bud” and “Taking the wind of of those sails”. Obviously, the macho honchos of the NFL didn’t have the time to do a séance and get in touch with dear departed mom.

    Several years ago, the players began sporting some type of skullcap under their helmets. Apparently its correct application was complicated enough that they didn’t have the wherewithal to remove them during the playing of our anthem. I even sent a real letter to the Commissioner announcing the inappropriatenes of that wearing and my personal disapproval. No reply was received. That would be a whiff on the nipping.

    Likewise on the taking. In my opinion, the owners had two cards to play, the contract of employment and basic human hospitality.
    I attended a sales lecture during one of my attempts at a college education and the guru, who seems to do more lecturing than selling those days had a great pitch. He asked what was the function of every employee. After leaving us stupidly stumped for a more than adequate amount of time, he pronounced that it was “the acquisition and maintenance of customers”. The underlying idea being no customers, no revenue; no revenue, no profit; and no profit, no organization. Obviously, the players have failed in that part of their responsibilities and, almost similarly, the owners have failed to require that they do. Hospitality-wise, well this was another serious issue for my parents, with mother in the lead. Their teaching was that when another’s castle, one does give oneself the rights of the lord of the manor. If the situation becomes unpleasant, one leaves. One doesn’t stay around kicking up dust (or worse).

    11B40 (6abb5c)


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