Patterico's Pontifications

10/18/2017

Trump Denies Democrat Congresswoman’s Account of Call to Widow

Filed under: General — Patterico @ 8:45 am

I updated my previous post on this, but it probably deserves its own post. The background, from the #FAKENEWSJEFFBEZOSPOST, is here:

In his call with Sgt. La David T. Johnson’s widow, Myeshia Johnson, Trump told her, “He knew what was signing up for, but I guess it hurts anyway,” according to the account of Rep. Frederica S. Wilson (D-Fla.), who was riding in a limousine with Johnson when the president called and heard the conversation on speakerphone.

Wilson recalled in an interview with The Washington Post that Johnson broke down in tears. “He made her cry,” Wilson said. The congresswoman said she wanted to take the phone and “curse him out,” but that the Army sergeant holding the phone would not let her speak to the president.

The White House neither confirmed nor denied Wilson’s account. “The President’s conversations with the families of American heroes who have made the ultimate sacrifice are private,” a White House official said in a statement.

Or are they? This morning, Trump has tweeted that the Democrat Congresswoman lied and that he has proof:

We’ll see. Somehow, I doubt we’re going to get the proof. Trump also implied he had a tape that would prove James Comey lied about what was said in a private meeting. I have yet to hear that tape.

In any event, I don’t think anybody wants to hear a tape of a conversation between Trump and the widow. I certainly don’t. It’s one of the darker moments of this lady’s life under any circumstances, no matter what was said, and no recording of it should be splashed across the news. If the Congresswoman, an apparent friend of the family, lied about the conversation, Trump could quietly provide the tape to journalists, who could get the accurate quote on the record. Tweeting that he has proof is not necessary — just like invoking the death of John Kelly’s son was not necessary.

I worry that this all ends up putting the widow in the crosshairs. Trump’s army of deplorables would not hesitate to send her death threats if she said something uncomplimentary about Dear Leader, you know.

There’s really no way this ends well. Which is usually the case when President Donald J. Trump is involved.

[Cross-posted at RedState and The Jury Talks Back.]

309 Responses to “Trump Denies Democrat Congresswoman’s Account of Call to Widow”

  1. “He knew what was signing up for, but I guess it hurts anyway,”

    Even if not verbatim but the words have that meaning I am at a loss for words and that never happens.

    Ben burn (b3d5ab)

  2. “Trump’s army of deplorables would not hesitate to send her death threats if she said something uncomplimentary about Dear Leader”

    An army of death threats eh?

    Why not just say they’ll show up at the funeral with bump stock-fitted assault weapons and mow everyone down?

    harkin (8789d3)

  3. i definitely believe President Trump over some tacky-assed funeral-crashing congresshooch what plants her fat ass in the funeral limo like it was her own personal uber and then starts making a spectacle of herself

    why would President Trump have anything but respect and kindness in his heart when he reached out to that widow lady?

    he wouldn’t!

    This is obvious to anyone who is willing to do the analysis.

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  4. In his call with Sgt. La David T. Johnson’s widow, Myeshia Johnson, Trump told her, “He knew what was signing up for, but I guess it hurts anyway,” according to the account of Rep. Frederica S. Wilson (D-Fla.), who was riding in a limousine with Johnson when the president called and heard the conversation on speakerphone.

    Wilson recalled in an interview with The Washington Post that Johnson broke down in tears. “He made her cry,” Wilson said. The congresswoman said she wanted to take the phone and “curse him out,” but that the Army sergeant holding the phone would not let her speak to the president.

    good lord

    stupid lying congresshooch hello

    if the call was on speaker you wouldn’t need to grab the phone

    now we all KNOW you’re a liar

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  5. Once again, when it comes to President Trump, he is guilty until proven innocent. Very odd attitude for a Deputy D.A.

    Bill Saracino (ad0096)

  6. If the hat act lied and Mr. President truly dindunuffin, I don’t see how anything could be laid at his door (except maybe Rose McGowan by the Secret Service). This is something he has a right to defend himself against, the chips fall where they may.

    nk (dbc370)

  7. “Trump’s army of deplorables would not hesitate to send her death threats if she said something uncomplementary about Dear Leader, you know.”

    Really? Is that your honest opinion of Trump’s defenders? Is that actually what you think, or is it yet another example of an ill considered unhinged and smarmy attemp to smear those who insist on solid evidence before condemning the accused?

    ropelight (bbe920)

  8. 1. That sounds very much like the way Donald Trump talks.

    Sammy Finkelman (02a146)

  9. those who insist on solid evidence before condemning the accused?

    OJ Simpson was acquitted I believe.

    Ben burn (b3d5ab)

  10. I don’t even see the problem with the disputed version. But then I didn’t vote for Trump because he was smooth conversationalist regarding delicate matters. I’ll take bluntness over sophistry.

    jcurtis (00837a)

  11. #9, Bb, you’ve got your head so far up your a** you couldn’t see daylight at noon. You smarmy tu*d.

    BTW, there was enough solid evidence to condemn OJ ten times over. He got off because of the color of his skin in the jurisdiction where he was tried. It was an undeniable example of pure black racism, straight up.

    ropelight (bbe920)

  12. I think you missed the point gropelight. Change batteries.

    Ben burn (b3d5ab)

  13. I’m confused. Everybody sees that as insensitive, but why? Seems like a fine comment here.

    Patrick Henry, the 2nd (2ab6f6)

  14. I don’t even see the problem with the disputed version.

    me neither this whole concoction stinks like one of them let’s-pimp-out-the-grieving-war-widow stunts

    for sure a healthy skepticism’s called for here cause it’s just not normal for a congresshooch to arrange to be present when a president graciously reaches out to the family of a fallen soldier

    seriously is it normal?

    No.

    that was never a thing until now

    and my feeling is it’s very weird slicked-up and sleazy

    and the emphasis on how the widow’s all but certain to get “death threats” is particularly revealing

    what the congresshooch has done here is a LOT like how westboro baptist used funerals to troll people into attacking or threatening them so they could leverage that victimization for legal or financial reasons

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  15. 14. happyfeet (28a91b) — 10/18/2017 @ 10:42 am

    sure a healthy skepticism’s called for here cause it’s just not normal for a congresshooch to arrange to be present when a president graciously reaches out to the family of a fallen soldier

    She was present to escort her and the whole family to the airport to pick up the body.

    Why?

    To call attention to herself, of course. Maybe offer to help with the bureaucracy.

    She made a complaint as part of the Democratic Party response to Trump making the call. They didn’t want trump to get any credit, or get out of the criticism for not saying anything earlier.

    Tell us something bad about the call, somebody (at the DNC? at the DCCC?) said, and don’t say anything good, and we’ll leak it to the press, and you back it up when they call. Prove Trump is no good.

    Sammy Finkelman (02a146)

  16. 13. Patrick Henry, the 2nd (2ab6f6) — 10/18/2017 @ 10:36 am

    I’m confused. Everybody sees that as insensitive, but why? Seems like a fine comment here.

    They were looking for some other way to characterize than saying Trump is a moron. That would have looked like you were feeling superior to special needs people. So they had to make him evil, and not stupid.

    Sammy Finkelman (02a146)

  17. Their family member died. Telling them “He knew what was signing up for, but I guess it hurts anyway,” does not seem sympathetic. It could even sound like telling them they should have expected this because it’s what he signed up for so get over it, even though it hurts.

    I hope he was trying to say that death is a possibility and people in the military and their families know that, but knowing that doesn’t stop it from hurting. But that’s true of life. We can all be killed at any moment, but it isn’t comforting to be told that at times like this. The point of a condolence call is to be comforting, not talk about how dangerous life can be.

    DRJ (15874d)

  18. It’s not really bad anyway, so they had to argue the point.

    Listen, the Congresswoman didn’t have all that much material to work with.

    She couldn’t outright make things up, because people would go to the family, so it’s more spin than actually bad..

    Sammy Finkelman (02a146)

  19. so Sleazy Frederica’s entire game was to leverage a soldier’s death for political advantage

    wouldn’t that be morally wrong?

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  20. A death that is expected, or that people know can happen, is less hurtful. Trump said that but then conceded that I guess it hurts anyway. I don’t know that the widow commented on that. She commented on Trump’s ignorance.

    Henry Kissinger said when his father died at age 95 that it is expected but it hurts still, or something to that effect.

    Sammy Finkelman (02a146)

  21. Telling them “He knew what was signing up for, but I guess… it hurts anyway,” does not seem sympathetic.

    for all we know the widow is the one what said “he knew what was signing up for” and then President Trump picked that up and said that nevertheless the pain and the loss are great

    that what it sounds like to me

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  22. oopers for all we know the widow is the one what said “he knew what *he* was signing up for”

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  23. It’s not really bad anyway, so they had to argue the point.

    and pray for death threats

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  24. Trump said that but then conceded that I guess it hurts anyway.

    the I guess part appeared magically overnight

    it wasn’t part of the original story

    originally it was reported as *but* it hurts anyway

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  25. In addition, he is the Commander in Chief. He should feel some responsibility for them since they serve under his command. To the extent his comment appears to disclaim responsibility for sending them on missions where they get hurt or killed, then it is self-serving and the opposite of the buck stops here. I am not saying he did that. I hope it wasn’t in his thoughts, but it’s hard to know.

    DRJ (15874d)

  26. According to the AP,

    “He offered condolences on behalf of a grateful nation and assured them their family’s extraordinary sacrifice to the country will never be forgotten,” said a White House statement.

    That’s certainly true. No one will forget this now.

    DRJ (15874d)

  27. No one will forget this now.

    especially if she gets her some death threats

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  28. 5 seconds of a reported 3 to 5 minute phone call may be enough to fan the flames of our preconceptions and biases but not enough to accurately characterize a conversation fairly. Trump deserves criticism for publicizing his communications with the families of the fallen and then walking into the middle of a free fire zone but the piling on based on a hearsay report from a biased 3rd party is uncivilized tribal behavior.

    crazy (d99a88)

  29. I found nothing wrong with what President Trump said, and I’m a veteran. And I voluntarily “signed up”. o go to Vietnam. And was wounded twice. Still, I have zero problem with his remark.

    Also I wouldn’t listen to anything that came out of this idiot unless it was on tape and corroborated by at least five witnesses to the same statement. Look at this fool:

    http://anodtothegods.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/10/brown-wilson2.jpg

    Rev.Hoagie® (6bbda7)

  30. I believe Trump meant well with this call, but his response to the blowback is classic Trump hyperbole. So was his initial statement that he’s the only President to make military condolence calls. Trump believes in exaggeration, which he calls truthful hyperbole:

    On exaggeration: “The final key to the way I promote is bravado. I play to people’s fantasies. People may not always think big themselves, but they can still get very excited by those who do. That’s why a little hyperbole never hurts. People want to believe that something is the biggest and the greatest and the most spectacular. I call it truthful hyperbole. It’s an innocent form of exaggeration, and a very effective form of promotion.”

    He’s exaggerated so much for so long that he can’t stop himself. It’s the salesman in him. Some of us are comfortable with a Salesman-in-Chief but some of us aren’t.

    DRJ (15874d)

  31. Mr. Reverend as a veteran how would you feel if a congresshooch got in a car with your wife after you were killed in action and created such a spectacle surrounding a call from the president lamenting your passing that people were concerned that death threats would be forthcoming?

    would you feel proud?

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  32. ‘Foot Locker Room Talk,’ eh Captain, sir.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  33. My wife would smack the sh!t out of that vagabond.

    Rev.Hoagie® (6bbda7)

  34. DRJ @30. Well said. Mining a widow’s grief for political advantage is wrong – no matter who’s doing it. I long for the days when we didn’t do that but they’re long past. Politics doesn’t stop at the water’s edge, or anywhere else for that matter, anymore.

    crazy (d99a88)

  35. Once again, when it comes to President Trump, he is guilty until proven innocent. Very odd attitude for a Deputy D.A.

    Bill Saracino (ad0096) — 10/18/2017 @ 9:55 am

    Expressing such sentiments around here can get you banned, Billy boy.

    CFarleigh (5b282a)

  36. Our Captain may actually be a deeply sensitive soul who riffs layers of callous, indifferent, incoherent and insensitive language as an insular wall to shield his tender, compassionate side from the aches and pains of day to day life.

    Nah.

    He’s from Queens.

    “Hey! I’m walking here! I’m walking here!” – Ratso Rizzo [Dustin Hoffman] ‘Midnight Cowboy’ 1969

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  37. Everybody sees that as insensitive, but why? Seems like a fine comment here.

    Me too but this smells like a setup. The mother has now been quoted as saying Trump “disrespected her son.”

    The military has been one of two good paths for blacks to avoid the pathology of the inner city and the soft bigotry of low expectations of college.

    If the BLM movement is infiltrating the military like it is the NFL, the country is in trouble.

    Blacks have the most to lose but they seem intent on trashing their own opportunities. Colleges are the best example.

    Maybe the military is next.

    Mike K (b3dd19)

  38. @37. A set up???????

    Like your pup tent on the Grassy Knoll.

    Step away from the bong.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  39. Step away from the bong.

    surely there’s a more respectful way to phrase this

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  40. Based on ropelight’s usage, I’m guessing Cal Thomas used the word “smarmy” in one of his recent columns.

    Leviticus (efada1)

  41. Blacks have the most to lose but they seem intent on trashing their own opportunities. Colleges are the best example.

    Maybe the military is next.

    Unfortunately the dead soldier cannot speak for himself (ooh…did I say that in an insensitive manner? Please correct me…not directed at you Mike). When I first saw this story I wondered how the soldier would have felt. I was reminded of the Sheehan guy (sad that I can remember his mom’s name but not his…Corey was it?) whose father, I believe, said that his son would not have approved of his mother’s actions. This whole thing smells like the same set-up. But to your point specifically, I’d like to believe that Sgt. Johnson’s experience in boot camp and especially as a Special Forces soldier, most likely made him very unlike the BLM’s and such that are trashing our institutions.

    Found this little tidbit interesting whilst trying to clarify “Special Forces”…
    Johnson was left behind when French forces’ helicopters scrambled to evacuate the soldiers

    https://www.local10.com/news/florida/miami-dade/remains-of-u-s-army-sgt-la-david-johnson-return-to-miami

    Seems there’s a story there. Not that any of these political point scorers give a rat’s * about Sgt. Johnson himself.

    CFarleigh (5b282a)

  42. “If the BLM movement is infiltrating the military like it is the NFL, the country is in trouble.”

    – Mike K

    Yeah! Not only will our military and our football teams be deprived of their best players, but our colleges will be overwhelmed with “the soft bigotry of low expectations” because of all the black people studying in them.

    Black people should probably just stick to the Army and the NFL.

    /sarc off

    Leviticus (efada1)

  43. If the p!nk panama with the purple rhinestones is lying, it cannot be anything else but a setup. How broad, is a different question.

    nk (dbc370)

  44. Is there a script to not have to read posts from the host?

    shipwreckedcrew (56b591)

  45. @25. Lights, cameras, signing ceremonies are part of the job; condolence calls are a ‘chore.’

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  46. keep ur chin up President Trump don’t let them h8rs get u down peace outtie love you

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  47. Step away from the bong.

    I think you have far more experience with bongs than I since mine is zero.

    Yeah! Not only will our military and our football teams be deprived of their best players, but our colleges will be overwhelmed with “the soft bigotry of low expectations” because of all the black people studying in them.

    I doubt you have been paying attention but I have noticed the phenomenon best exemplified by Black Lives Mater protestors invading Baker library at Dartmouth the week before finals.

    Why do you suppose they were not studying like the students they harassed? Dartmouth is an Ivy League school. I would think everyone would be concerned with finals.

    The Dartmouth Review listed epithets that were hurled at white students, including ‘F*** you, you filthy white f***s!’ and ‘F*** you, you racist s****!’
    It reported that as well as the profanity, both male and female students were shoved.
    And in an op-ed for The Tab, Charlie Lundquist, a white male student who was at the protest, said he had been proud to attend, but left early because of what it became.

    So he wanted to help but saw what was happening and left. Why are black students demanding their own housing ?

    Why are college students protesting? They are in college. They are the elite of the black college age kids.

    Why not study ? Do they know that “African American Studies” degrees are worthless? Do they know that no professor is going fail them whether they do the work or not?

    West Point had a rigid Honor Code for 200 years. Now, the honor code is no more. It seems that since women and black athletes are priorities, honor is no longer important.

    How about the UNC athletes A- essay ?

    On the evening of December Rosa Parks decided that she was going to sit in the white people section on the bus in Montgomery, Alabama. During this time blacks had to give up there seats to whites when more whites got on the bus. Rosa Parks refused to give up her seat. Her and the bus driver began to talk and the conversation went like this. “Let me have those front seats” said the driver. She didn’t get up and told the driver that she was tired of giving her seat to white people. “I’m going to have you arrested,” said the driver. “You may do that,” Rosa Parks responded. Two white policemen came in and Rosa Parks asked them “why do you all push us around?” The police officer replied and said “I don’t know, but the law is the law and you’re under arrest.

    Slate defends the practice, sort of.

    The student did not earn the A- for the paper specifically, but for the entire, completed class.
    So instead of evidence of specific academic corruption, the image merely seems to be visual proof that UNC admitted athletes with grade-school-level writing skills and awarded them high marks.

    So, it’s OK. Do you see my point, Leviticus? Or is the leftist haze in front of you obscuring it?

    Mike K (b3dd19)

  48. @Mike K:Or is the leftist haze in front of you obscuring it?

    Signature leftist move is to take any mention of race as the occasion for an inquisition into your racism. Leviticus I hope is better than that, and will accept your explanation at face value instead of trying to twist it into a confession.

    Frederick (8a82ba)

  49. west point lol

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  50. Your “point” was clearly stated:

    “The military has been one of two good paths for blacks to avoid the pathology of the inner city and the soft bigotry of low expectations of college.”

    What’s the other “good path for blacks,” besides the military? You clearly don’t think black people should go to college, based on the statement above.

    Leviticus (efada1)

  51. @Mike K:You clearly don’t think black people should go to college, based on the statement above.

    And Leviticus disappoints.

    Frederick (8a82ba)

  52. @47

    West Point had a rigid Honor Code for 200 years. Now, the honor code is no more. It seems that since women and black athletes are priorities, honor is no longer important.

    This is at least the second time you’ve linked this, and I’ve actually gone and read the article. Nowhere does it mention women and black students as the cause for the decline of the honor code. The author singles out “Senior Administration”. Where are you getting your take on this?

    Davethulhu (fab944)

  53. @Leviticus:You clearly don’t think black people should go to college, based on the statement above.

    If you apply that logic consistently, Mike K is also saying they don’t belong in the inner city–if “don’t belong” and “avoid” were synonyms, which they aren’t.

    But if you read English correctly, it is “pathology” and “soft bigotry of low expectations” that are to be avoided, not the “inner city” or “college”.

    I think you should pass up the temptation to accuse people of racism by distorting their statements, it would be a better comments section.

    Frederick (8a82ba)

  54. @Davethulhu:Nowhere does it mention women and black students as the cause for the decline

    Not surprising since Mike K did not say this. He said that the Academy has priorities other than honor, not that women and black students caused the decline.

    Frederick (8a82ba)

  55. You can only have one highest priority. If your highest priority is honor, then your student body will reflect that, and perhaps demographic balance and academic achievement will not come out as well as if they were your highest priority.

    If your highest priority is demographic balance, your student body will reflect that, and perhaps honor and academic achievement will not come out as well as if they were your highest priority.

    If your highest priority is academic achievement, your student body will reflect that, perhaps demographic balance and honor will not come out as well as if they were your highest priority.

    This is a simple and obvious truth and ought not to be made an occasion for insinuating racism. Nothing is going to get better if people can’t talk about it without being smeared.

    Frederick (8a82ba)

  56. @54 The article doesn’t mention women in any way, and it doesn’t mention athletes by race.

    Davethulhu (fab944)

  57. college is gross

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  58. The author relates two anecdotes, one of a student he reported for lying (female), and another of a student reported by another professor for plagiarizing (male, but no race is specified. He also mentions academic performance for athletes being neglected but again no race is specified. Finally we have the triggering incident, Lieutenant Che Shirt, who is a white male. So, once again, I ask where Fredrick and Mike K are drawing the conclusion that all of this is a result of making “women and black students a priority.”

    Davethulhu (fab944)

  59. Mr. thulhu pls to click for to learn

    Black West Point cadets under scrutiny for raised fists in photo

    west point’s a joke school anymore

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  60. You clearly don’t think black people should go to college, based on the statement above.

    This, of course, is nonsense and you know it. I’m a little disappointed as a I remember you slightly more logical.

    The three pathways are college, for those, unlike the UNC athlete, prepared for it. That rarely involves Ivy League colleges but there are plenty of good colleges that will let these kids succeed.
    The second is the military, which has been for a half century the best and least racist organization in American life. The third, and it is only for those with the necessary talent, is athletics.

    I would suggest you read a book called “Mismatch,” but you won’t.

    I have taught medical students for 15 years. Each year about a third of my students were black but only a few were American born. My foreign born black students simply did not understand American blacks.

    The American black students are starting to notice.

    Back in 2007, African students constituted nearly 40 percent of the black students admitted to Ivy League schools. Why is that troubling for African-American students? It’s not that African-American students begrudge African and Caribbean students for their success, but their admittance often gives opponents of affirmative action an argument that racism is no longer an obstacle, simply because of their success.

    The Wall Street Journal’s, James Taranto wrote in 2007 that, ”…at least as measured by enrollment in elite universities, black immigrants and their children are succeeding in America far more, on average, than blacks whose families have been in the U.S. for generations — i.e., the descendants of slaves.

    This, of course is bullshit because West Indian blacks who also do well are descended from slaves.

    Several of my African students had had harder lives and were poorer than the American blacks but still did well.

    I just don;t think you know what you are talking about Leviticus.

    Mike K (b3dd19)

  61. You clearly don’t think black people should go to college, based on the statement above.

    Only if they want to be gladiators in the NFL arena. But they should not assume those high salaries are reparations unless they resist

    Ben burn (b3d5ab)

  62. Nowhere does it mention women and black students as the cause for the decline

    It would help if you read the article. I’m not going to spoon feed you dopes but in several places the offending cadet is described as “she.” The athletes are also immune to the Honor Code. Guess.

    Mike K (b3dd19)

  63. @61 I already addressed this in post 58. As for the athlete part, are all the athletes black? Are black athletes overrepresented among underperforming students? You’re pulling this out of your ass.

    Davethulhu (fab944)

  64. happyfeet –
    just made fresh sea scallops over 550 degree wood coals then once on the platter brushed them with a fresh grapefruit, honey, habanero glaze. Outstanding is all I can say.

    mg (31009b)

  65. ooh that sounds lovely i just learned what a martini sauce is have you ever tried?

    it’s basically a dry vermouth and OJ reduction

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  66. no,but sounds delicious. I love glazing seafood, will give it a try.
    thanks.

    mg (31009b)

  67. here’s the take on it i added to bookmarks but there’s no end to them

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  68. bookmarks can turn into a cesspool of knowledge

    mg (31009b)

  69. speaking of cesspoolsI I watched A.G. Sessions and the attorneys du jour make complete fools of themselves today. Of all of them Sasse was best. He spoke of the future in cyber issues.

    mg (31009b)

  70. harvardtrash ben sasse viciously attacked harvardtrash ted cruz with a dr. pepper

    it was a complete and utter breakdown of civility and decorum that in my opinion has been long overdue

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  71. Sessions and his wee man complex wearing thin. The only good thing about His Recalcitrance is his stubborn streak. It’s way taller than Trump.

    Ben burn (b3d5ab)

  72. Why is the President calling anyway? I don’t mean just Trump, but any President. Does the President call the mother of every soldier who is KIA? This may be so, but currently I tend to think of this kind of thing as usually a PR stunt.

    dlm (a4eb00)

  73. #4 “if the call was on speaker you wouldn’t need to grab the phone”

    Good point, though it’s not definitive. She could still have wanted to grab the phone. This could also show she was not thinking clearly.

    dlm (a4eb00)

  74. #27. Of course she’ll get death threats. A few of them may even be legitimate. Most will be fake, but that won’t matter. The important thing is that she gets them.

    dlm (a4eb00)

  75. We’ve been living in a lawless regime for eight years, its a change of pace, were going through.

    narciso (d1f714)

  76. Are black athletes overrepresented among underperforming students? You’re pulling this out of your ass.

    Did you read the letter ?

    Are you on a lefty crusade to end the Army ? That’s what’s going on there,

    I guess the enemies of the military are getting in through the back door, which Obama left open.

    Mike K (b3dd19)

  77. @75 I read the letter. In fact, I’ll quote the parts that you apparently did not read:

    Every fall, the Superintendent addresses the staff and faculty and lies. He repeatedly states that “We are going to have winning sports teams without compromising our standards,” and everyone in Robinson Auditorium knows he is lying because we routinely admit athletes with ACT scores in the mid-teens across the board. I have personally taught cadets who are borderline illiterate and cannot read simple passages from the assigned textbooks. It is disheartening when the institution’s most senior leader openly lies to his own faculty-and they all know it.

    I dunno, it seems to me that you’re assuming that said illiterate athletes are all black.

    Here’s a bonus for you, re: Obama:

    Academic standards are also nonexistent. I believe this trend started approximately ten years ago, and it has continued to get worse. West Point has stated standards for academic expectations and performance, but they are ignored. Cadets routinely fail multiple classes and they are not separated at the end-of-semester Academic Boards.

    Who was President ten years ago?

    Davethulhu (fab944)

  78. Why this should surprise anyone is astounding. Character is character, and we all know Trump’s character by now. (UPDates: (!!!) Wife confirms Congresswoman’s account but wails that the worst part was that Trump didn’t even remember her husband’s name. UPdates: (!!!) Trump offered a grieving military father $25,000 in a call early last June, but didn’t follow through. White House reports that the check (now) “has been sent”!!. Updates: Sarah Huckabee Sanders, like her boss, is a wanton whore liar.

    Why this should surprise anyone is astounding. Why Trump supporters shrug off yet more evidence of the moral -slash- human hollowness of their man is . . . depressing. In the extreme.

    Q! (267694)

  79. Why this should surprise anyone is astounding. Character is character, and we all know Trump’s character by now. (UPDates: (!!!) Wife confirms Congresswoman’s account but wails that the worst part was that Trump didn’t even remember her husband’s name. UPdates: (!!!) Trump offered a grieving military father $25,000 in a call early last June, but didn’t follow through. White House reports that the check (now) “has been sent”!!. Updates: Sarah Huckabee Sanders, like her boss, is a wanton liar.

    Why this should surprise anyone is astounding. Why Trump supporters shrug off yet more evidence of the moral -slash- human hollowness of their man is . . . depressing. In the extreme.

    Q! (267694)

  80. Sarah Huckabee Sanders is super-darling I just think the world of her

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  81. Huckabeast sucks hind teat.

    “[M]ultiple people in the room believe that the president was completely respectful, very sympathetic, and expressed condolences for himself and the rest of the country, and thanked the family for their service, commended them for having an American hero in their family, and I don’t know how you can take that any other way,” she hedged.

    Did he observe the spirit of empathy?

    Ben burn (b3d5ab)

  82. @Davethulhu: Fredrick and Mike K are drawing the conclusion that all of this is a result of making “women and black students a priority.”

    I would like you to retract this, because I have said no such thing. That I defend Mike K against your misrepresentation of his views does not mean I share his views myself.

    I would appreciate your not misrepresenting my views in the future, as well.

    Frederick (8a82ba)

  83. @80 Withdrawn, in that case. Maybe you should let Mike K speak for himself.

    Davethulhu (fab944)

  84. @Davethulu:Maybe you should let Mike K speak for himself.

    That might be best, but nonetheless people attributing views and motives to others by association is a lot of why the comments around here have got so bad, and we should think twice before doing it. I appreciate your retraction, and thank you.

    Frederick (8a82ba)

  85. “You see South Africa led by the likes of Steve Biko?”

    “I hope, by the likes of Steve Biko”

    Ben burn (b3d5ab)

  86. By far, the most disgusting aspect of this mess is that ALL Gold Star families have been contacted by the media who are seeking to make political points.

    I am well satisfied that DJT did not say anything overtly offensive in this instance. I also firmly believe he has genuine compassion and the deepest respect for the fallen and their families. It’s one of his few virtues. For sure, though, he is capable of being an oaf.

    Ed from SFV (3400a5)

  87. “he is capable of being an oaf.”

    Good of you to stipulate..

    Ben burn (b3d5ab)

  88. it seems to me that you’re assuming that said illiterate athletes are all black.

    Are you really this clueless? Who do you think ?

    Mike K (b3dd19)

  89. Sadly its new led by Jacob zumba a corrupt warlord in the guise of mugabe.

    narciso (d1f714)

  90. @87 That’s the only line out of my post that you’re going to respond to? No, I’m not going to assume that the only underperforming athletes are black.

    Take me from A to B, Mike K. Explain how making “women and black athletes” priorities resulted in a white male communist being graduated.

    Here’s my theory: In 2007 (when the author writes that problems began to surface), we were deep in the middle of an extremely unpopular war. Perhaps this impacted the quality of candidates that were applying? Perhaps the army (facing retention issues) pushed harder for more graduates?

    Davethulhu (fab944)

  91. Strikingly she doesn’t know the difference between Niger which is French speaking Ang Nigeria which is English along with Yoruba and ibo:

    https://www.newsbusters.org/blogs/nb/chris-reeves/2017/10/18/wow-bbc-anchor-asks-dem-rep-if-she-complicit-politicizing-soldiers

    narciso (d1f714)

  92. Pin: You’re gonna have to show me one of narc’s links that are non-wingnutty. Waiting..and waiting.

    Ben burn (b3d5ab)

  93. 90

    The audacity of Thumpers aghast at politics being injected into Trumpian-Pan-Politics which have no boundaries for indecency.

    Ben burn (b3d5ab)

  94. It’s not fair to blame Trump for starting this. It was that Democratic Congresswoman who started it. You can argue whether Trump should have ignored her comment, but don’t give her a pass.

    David in Cal (2b55d5)

  95. This heah’s how ya’ll gits into West Point, once ya’ll meets the basic rechoirments. It’s only one page, and you can all draw your own conclusion whether it is a process which will result in West Point classes looking like something in-between the Congress of the United States and the enlisted barracks of your choice.

    nk (dbc370)

  96. @Mike K: Signature leftist move is to take any mention of race as the occasion for an inquisition into your racism.

    That right-wing rag, Huffington Post, says that

    “While only 39 percent of all students who took the ACT college admissions test in 2013 scored well enough to be deemed college-ready by the testing company, the number was dramatically lower for minority students, with only 11 percent of African-American and 18 percent of Hispanic students meeting the bar. Forty-nine percent of white students and 57 percent of Asian students made the mark.”

    I assume that any failure of African-Americans to live up their full potential is inextricably linked to generations of structural and institutional racism. But admitting unprepared people into academic environments where they cannot succeed without lowering standards cannot make up for that; there is a pervasive assumption in higher education that it can.

    Maybe every single African-American athlete admitted to West Point through the prep-school back door was in that top 11% that the ACT determines are college ready, and maybe not one of the “athletes with ACT scores in the mid-teens” mentioned in the letter were African-American. It is barely possible, though statistically unlikely, that this is the case.

    Frederick (8a82ba)

  97. If only they tried harder:
    babalublog.com/2017/10/18/communism-using-hunger-and-starvation-as-a-weapon-of-mass-destruction

    narciso (d1f714)

  98. Totally believe Trump said this but honestly don’t believe his intent was to offend, either, but he has lost the benefit of the doubt w/the media given his record. He has an undisciplined, scattershot mind. He’s inarticulate and brain farty by nature– and age– as is often the case w/71 year olds who try to over talk you too fast, speak before they finish forming a thought and misfire words that backfire intent. What offends more is not recognizing it in himself or acknowledging it when others close to him point it out– then stubbornly and steadfastly denying it.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  99. Is credibility a value worth having as we march toward Idiocracy?

    Diminishing returns

    Ben burn (b3d5ab)

  100. Ordinarily Mrs Johnson moment of grief before her husbands casket,, should have sufficed, but the dens who allowed the killing fields and the boat people to happen, the Ken burns series whitewashed them, like Philip Jennings pointed out, who allowed a smaller slaughter to arise out of the Iraqi withdrawal, will not let sleeping dogs lie.

    narciso (d1f714)

  101. From the Kerry wannabe, who was rewarded with a post as Hudson spokesman, where he diminished the via scandal:

    https://mobile.twitter.com/jrsalzman/status/920701356633079808?p=v

    narciso (d1f714)

  102. Wanna consider that Madame Superfly will be 75 years old in less than three weeks? In the context of the brain farts of dotards? And maybe their acuteness of hearing, too?

    nk (dbc370)

  103. I wonder what kind of people she has appointed to the service academies as a Congresslady.

    nk (dbc370)

  104. Notwithstanding the mental health of Doughboy with the listening skills of red granite and the oratory of a deviant Shrek…

    Ben burn (b3d5ab)

  105. She was a felementaty school principal , and school board member,( yes just the sortb who would ban mockingbird) her to south, hhastins to the north, Webbie dubious in the center square, and you wonder why I’m cynical

    narciso (d1f714)

  106. she seems to carry a lot of credibility with nevertrump Mr. narciso

    they lick up everything what spews out her mouth

    and they love it so much

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  107. Here’s credibility

    https://goo.gl/images/VKUjIt

    Ben burn (b3d5ab)

  108. The character problems LTC Heffington, USMA Class of 97 writes about from his perspective as a cadet and faculty member over the past 24 years have been popping up periodically for much longer. Sex, drugs, cheating scandals have been making the news every few years since the 70’s. They are reflective of the same erosion in values in our society and our military from the Vietnam era forward. The service academies have been “grading on the curve” so to speak in admissions, retention and graduation for a long, long time. Eventually it catches up with you as LTC Heffington is bravely trying to point out. Corny and antiquated as many may believe it to be the cadet administered Honor Code is probably the most important character development element of a cadet’s academy experience. Without it a 4 year commissioning program at a service academy is just a free ride and the officers that are commissioned after cheating the honor code have even less of a sense of right and wrong than their counterparts. It’s a shame the Commandants and Superintendents are too wed to the current PC climate to clean up their commands.

    crazy (d99a88)

  109. And now the media have made it Trump vs. the soldier, instead of demented DNC crone vs. Trump. To be expected: Dog bites man/media bites Republican President, situation normal.

    nk (dbc370)

  110. Actually not grosteque…kinda flattering.

    Ben burn (b3d5ab)

  111. If this “puts the widow in the crosshairs”, well, I’d have to blame the Congresswoman for deciding to weaponize a private conversation. By blowing up a private conversation into a national news story, whatever hurt Mrs Johnson felt originally is going to be magnified a lot.

    Trump, of course, cannot help himself; he has to have the last word even if it’s a stupid one. The Democrats know this, which is why they handed this story to the papers. The blame is all theirs.

    Kevin M (752a26)

  112. COS Gen. John Kelly says what the wacky Texas CongressCritter says Trump said is not true. That’s good enough for me, but YMMV.

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  113. Patterico,

    Why, in two posts, have you nothing to say about the Congresswoman’s reprehensible weaponizing of private grief? Do you think she’s doing this to HELP the widow?

    Kevin M (752a26)

  114. Trump critic clown noses on… Trump critic clown noses off.

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  115. Kernel..we know whats going on with the Four Horsemen. They’re trying to avoid a Spanish bit for the Gelding.

    Ben burn (b3d5ab)

  116. This was the second time they tried to play the sheehan card, the first was in Yemen.

    Yes we had clay Shaw, who was replaced by Allen west, who was sold out by that weasel weatherford, and now that punk Patrick Murphy has sat in his place.

    narciso (d1f714)

  117. The whole situation is grotesque. I question the premise that the commander-in-chief should be expected to call the wife / significant other of every dead soldier, but fine, let it through.
    Trump beclowns himself every time he opens his mouth (or flexes his fingers), and he reacts like a 10yo to the taunts of the media.
    This congresscritter has cheapened the sacrifice of somebody who has essentially signed up to take a bullet for her, and has made public for all to see the pettiness of the current political climate. Shame on her.

    Where are the statesman?? (i’d say statesperson but that just sounds stupid).

    that david from Oz (9f6eaa)

  118. Fair Play for Cuba was a communist front and many of your cousins fell for it. Is that why you’re mad?

    Ben burn (b3d5ab)

  119. Trump beclowns himself every time he opens his mouth (or flexes his fingers), and he reacts like a 10yo to the taunts of the media.

    this is hyperbole and plus guess what it’s not even true

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  120. Yes… where are TEH statesmen? http://youtu.be/_ipvdBnU8F8

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  121. You really like that article kernel..

    Ben burn (b3d5ab)

  122. that article lays it straight out how undeniably corrupt the fbi is today and it obliterates the whole idea of there being some quantity of integrity what Robert Mueller’s poor deluded wife may have thought her husband possessed

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  123. The should-have-been presidetialdebate of a year ago is on the CNN.

    urbanleftbehind (6a13e5)

  124. I generally like Ben, but he lays on the OTM Latino sarc a little thick.

    urbanleftbehind (6a13e5)

  125. I assume that any failure of African-Americans to live up their full potential is inextricably linked to generations of structural and institutional racism.

    It is more likely that the Murray effect and the Freakonomics effect are at work. The “baby mommas” with IQs of 85 are having 15 children from 15 daddys with equivalent IQs.

    The other possibility is that the American slaves were losers captured by the winners in the wars of West Africa and sold to the Arabs or slavers from Europe. They might have been lower on the IQ scale.

    There are a lot of African immigrants and I have met some. They are better able to manage higher education. Nigerians (Ibos) are especially well, represented as “Quants” in the securities industry in NYC.

    The black doctors I know, and I know quite a few, are usually descended from other doctors and their children tend to go to medical school, as well.

    It’s genetics in action. Read The 10,000 Year Explosion.

    I gave a copy to a black orthopod friend of mine and teased him saying “Farakahn was right about us being “ice people.”

    The book points out that as humans moved north., they needed clothing and vitamin D so melanin declined. In both Europe and Asia, white skin goes with northern origin.

    Of course, you are horrified at the thought of inequality.

    Mike K (b3dd19)

  126. Kevin M (752a26) — 10/18/2017 @ 5:51 pm

    Temper thyself, if only for a moment, Kevin. You and I know that you are astute, but the silence serves P well, not you.

    felipe (023cc9)

  127. Trump’s army of deplorables would not hesitate to send her death threats if she said something uncomplimentary about Dear Leader, you know.

    This is really uncalled for. Every movement in this country has it’s crazy people. I’m sure there are some crazy centrists. There is always someone who calls in a death threat, even if it’s against McDonald’s for shorting them a chicken nugget. To cast this aspersion on your politial opponents when 99.9% of them would never do such a thing is asinine. I am sure that Trump gets death threats, too.

    And I remind you, it was not Trump who blew this up.

    Kevin M (752a26)

  128. Temper thyself, if only for a moment, Kevin. You and I know that you are astute, but the silence serves P well, not you.

    You are going to have to draw me a diagram for that.

    Kevin M (752a26)

  129. Mueller, well he let benkaure slip through his fingers, the Chapman ring he nabbed by accident, mostly because the CIA had an asset who like tretyakov subsequently passed. He was auditioning for the atty general spot and didn’t getvit, so like felt he turned bitter. Also trump impinged onnsome of his firmscclientele.

    narciso (d1f714)

  130. @Mike K: You might read my statement you quoted a little bit more carefully, and not impute to me views I didn’t actually express, as I asked Davethulhu not to do.

    Of course, you are horrified at the thought of inequality.

    Yeah, I am, it’s a tragic problem, for those individually suffering from it as well as the larger society.

    Frederick (8a82ba)

  131. 123… it’s the real thing, BeenBurned. Unlike you .

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  132. Mike K (b3dd19) — 10/18/2017 @ 6:17 pm

    “It is more likely that the Murray effect and the Freakonomics effect are at work.”

    I agree.

    “The “baby mommas” with IQs of 85 are having 15 children from 15 daddys with equivalent IQs.”

    Yikes! WTH, Man?!! Hyperbole does not serve you well. You totally disappointed me, there.

    felipe (023cc9)

  133. I think the issue is cultural, the marcusian liberation from traditional norms. Damaged the affluent baby boomers, but it was fatal for working class and poor people. Once upon a time, I thought obama might have been an answer but he carried every foreign radical pose and encouraged the most antis ail elementd

    narciso (d1f714)

  134. Kevin, the point is that Trump is making a mountain out of a molehill. He could have just let Wilson shout and fuss. I agree that Wilson “weaponized” this, but I am among the many here who find the original statement not only inoffensive but true (assuming Trump said it).

    kishnevi (98ea1b)

  135. Frederick, I was making a statement in general and not just to you.

    I apologize if it sounded that way.

    This country is headed in avery unhealthy direction. American blacks have gotten themselves into a very dangerous cul de sac.

    If whites are the enemy, where do they go ? They are 12% of the population.

    They have concluded against all evidence, that too many black men are incarcerated.

    This is at the root of BLM and the NFL stuff.

    Today’s news brings more evidence of the problem. Radee L. Prince killed three co-workers and wounded two others at his workplace in northern Maryland and then drove to Delaware where he shot a sixth victim. Police apprehended him early this evening after a manhunt.

    The shootings occurred only hours ago, and Prince’s full criminal record has not yet been reported. However, he has a lengthy criminal history in both Maryland and Delaware, according to court records and law enforcement officials.

    Wilmington Police Chief Robert Tracy says that in Delaware alone, Prince has a total of 42 arrests, including 15 convictions for felonies and several for misdemeanors. That’s quite a record for a 37 year-old.

    Prince has also had trouble with the law in Maryland. For example, in 2015 he was pulled over for driving with his front headlight out, and became “extremely loud and aggressive,” according to court records. Police found a pistol in the card, and Prince was charged with multiple handgun violations. However, prosecutors dropped these charges three months later.

    Earlier this year, Prince was fired from a job in Maryland for punching a co-worker and threatening other employees. As far as I can tell, he was not prosecuted for this, and a judge declined to issue a “peace order” when another co-worker applied for one.

    This is an explosion that is building up steam.

    The Civil Rights Act of 1965 was passed with white good will.

    That good will, except for a series of beta males on the left, is getting tired of this BLM agitation.

    Mike K (b3dd19)

  136. Kevin M (752a26) — 10/18/2017 @ 6:19 pm

    Very well Kevin. Your demand upon our gracious host (P), betrays an undercurrent of projection on your part. To what end do you suppose his silence on the matter? His silence speaks well of him in that discretion is the better part of valor. Your assignation to him of some vice instead of valor, is a reflection on you, not our host.

    Is my mind still obscure?

    felipe (023cc9)

  137. Hyperbole does not serve you well.

    OK.

    Oxygen Media has ordered what they’re describing as a “daring” (according to their press release) new 1-Hour special titled All My Babies’ Mamas, which will premiere next spring.

    The project will center on the complicated lives of one man, his many women, and their many children.

    Further… the series which comes from creative duo Liz Gateley and Tony DiSanto of DiGa Vision…

    … will capture the highs and lows of this extreme ‘blended family’ that is anything but ordinary, while also showing the drama and the passion behind life’s most unexpected situations.

    In addition, Cori Abraham, Senior Vice President of Development at Oxygen Media, says:

    “‘All My Babies’ Mamas’ will be filled with outrageous and authentic over-the-top moments that our young, diverse female audience can tweet and gossip about.”

    blogs.indiewire.com/shad…

    This is…this is…just so damn wrong. After 6 months of going without cable, I come back to this shit. Way to perpetuate the sterotype Oxygen.

    Oxygen is Oprah’s TV network.

    The privately held company Oxygen Media was founded in 1998 by former Nickelodeon executive Geraldine Laybourne, talk show host Oprah Winfrey, and producers Marcy Carsey, Tom Werner and Caryn Mandabach (of Carsey-Werner fame). Laybourne was the service’s founder, chairwoman, and CEO, staying with the channel until the NBCUniversal sale. The company’s cable network Oxygen launched on February 2, 2000.

    You choose what you want to believe. I’m not selling anything but truth.

    Mike K (b3dd19)

  138. And I remind you, it was not Trump who blew this up.

    Actually, it was. Without Trump’s overreaction, it would have remained Frederica’s clown in the spotlight moment. We could have pointed out Trump’s alleged statement may have been inelegantly expressed, but was completely true.

    kishnevi (98ea1b)

  139. We could have pointed out Trump’s alleged statement may have been inelegantly expressed, but was completely true.
    kishnevi (98ea1b) — 10/18/2017 @ 6:39 pm

    Well said.

    felipe (023cc9)

  140. I came to despise her, over a little kerfluffle about 5 years, when libel were passed off as truth, and even after an acquittal denebian slime devils like Lisa bloom kept pushing it.

    narciso (d1f714)

  141. Is my mind still obscure?

    No, but I don’t accept your premise. I see no impediment to our host calling out a partisan Democrat who says things like “the Tea Party is the real enemy” as using this widow for political purposes. Why would he censor himself (which is what you are suggesting)?

    So, I note that he did not, even though her actions were pretty “monstrous” themselves, and ask why.

    I note that this Congresswoman was also a “family friend” of Treyvon Martin’s, and was heavily involved there.

    Kevin M (752a26)

  142. Without Trump’s overreaction, it would have remained Frederica’s clown in the spotlight moment.

    And it’s a predictable overreaction, too. I think I can make a Trump flowchart now.

    Kevin M (752a26)

  143. Cyndi sheehan,is piping out of her burrow.

    narciso (d1f714)

  144. A reminder:
    dailycaller.com/2014/06/05/obama-administration-official-brandon-friedman-hey-maybe-bergdahls-platoon-was-a-bunch-of-psycopaths/?utm_source=site-share

    narciso (d1f714)

  145. This is not unlike when, caught on tape, someone showed Trump a water decontamination kit amongst the items being handed out in PR and he muttered in half-kidding amazement, something like ‘You mean you put this stuff in the bad water to clear it then you can drink it? Really?’ THen made a ‘not me’ face.

    Yes, Gramps. And you wear the disposable diapers to pee in then toss ’em out– and you don’t have to wash them!

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  146. No, but I don’t accept your premise.
    Kevin M (752a26) — 10/18/2017 @ 7:09 pm

    There is no fault in that.

    Why would he censor himself (which is what you are suggesting)?
    Kevin M (752a26) — 10/18/2017 @ 7:09 pm

    Because it pleases him to do so.

    felipe (023cc9)

  147. I note that this Congresswoman was also a “family friend” of Treyvon Martin’s, and was heavily involved there.
    Kevin M (752a26) — 10/18/2017 @ 7:09 pm

    I have no doubt that you will make, of that, what you will.

    felipe (023cc9)

  148. Wallaby save is back for more:
    http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/blogs/tim-blair

    narciso (d1f714)

  149. You choose what you want to believe. I’m not selling anything but truth.
    Mike K (b3dd19) — 10/18/2017 @ 6:38 pm

    Again, I agree with you. The truth is better served, plain. A wise man once said that there is no need to defend the truth; set it free and it will defend itself.

    felipe (023cc9)

  150. So, we have a conversation between a grieving widow and the President. He says something that causes the widow to start to cry, according to our sole reporter, a hyper-partisan “progressive.” Solely concerned for her good friend’s emotional state, said hyper-partisan reporter then gives her version of events to the media. Because grieving widows LIKE media firestorms.

    The media takes them as gospel as they pass the “it’s dirt about Trump” low bar test and pushes the story to all with a Drudge siren. Trump, predictably responds with a denial.

    Now, I am willing to bet that what Trump said, and what the Congresswoman reported are not the same thing, and his denial is probably truthy. Still, Trump (again) is an idiot for responding. But the real fault in this clusterfork is Frederica Wilson’s.

    Kevin M (752a26)

  151. A wise man once said that there is no need to defend the truth; set it free and it will defend itself.

    Then explain the Clintons.

    Kevin M (752a26)

  152. Kevin, the point is that Trump is making a mountain out of a molehill. He could have just let Wilson shout and fuss. I agree that Wilson “weaponized” this, but I am among the many here who find the original statement not only inoffensive but true (assuming Trump said it).

    Probably not the best thing to say to a recent widow. No?

    Patterico (115b1f)

  153. But the real fault in this clusterfork is Frederica Wilson’s.

    As I said in the other thread, she may have acted badly. I think it depends on the family’s point of view. I have not read all the comments here, but surely you agree that Trump acted badly with respect to Gen. Kelly, right?

    Patterico (115b1f)

  154. Really? Is that your honest opinion of Trump’s defenders? Is that actually what you think, or is it yet another example of an ill considered unhinged and smarmy attemp to smear those who insist on solid evidence before condemning the accused?

    Nope, not of all his defenders. A small minority? You bet! And all it takes is a few for death threats to have a real effect.

    Patterico (115b1f)

  155. Kevin M (752a26) — 10/18/2017 @ 8:05 pm

    We will always have the poor with us.

    felipe (023cc9)

  156. Trump deserves criticism for publicizing his communications with the families of the fallen and then walking into the middle of a free fire zone but the piling on based on a hearsay report from a biased 3rd party is uncivilized tribal behavior.

    The party is biased, but it’s not hearsay and it’s corroborated by a family member.

    Patterico (115b1f)

  157. Did this begin with that virtue signaling jackalope who wanted to show how woke he is:

    http://miami.cbslocal.com/2017/10/09/wife-devastated-after-us-soldier-killed-in-niger-he-was-everything-to-us

    narciso (d1f714)

  158. UPdates: (!!!) Trump offered a grieving military father $25,000 in a call early last June, but didn’t follow through. White House reports that the check (now) “has been sent”!!.

    Yeah, today. Now that he was called on it. LOL. Just like the cool million he pledged to give the vets during the campaign, but never actually intended to follow through until that “nasty” reporter from the #FAKENEWSBEZOSPOST called him on it.

    Trump is worth less to humanity in terms of morality than stuff I scrape off my shoe.

    Patterico (115b1f)

  159. I see TDS is back with the host.

    Mike K (b3dd19)

  160. Look, we all know Trump doesn’t like soldiers who get captured – how do you think he feels about soldiers who get killed?

    Jerryskids (3308c1)

  161. I’m going to steal that one, Jerryskids.

    Patterico (115b1f)

  162. I’ve never paid much attention to those National Perspirer clones at the grocery checkout, is that where some folks are finding their news these days?

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  163. Yes we learned nothing about what they did to w, the combined media and political juggernaut, that led to the rise of the Islamic state. Why were troops in Niger, a place previously known to Joe Wilson’s travel agent and sundry uraniumBrokers. Because the Arab spring supported by Hillary and Obama opened the mummies tomb and gave Al queda a fresh lease on life, they swarmed south into subsaharsn Africa. Book hatam arose in pat ofout of the corruption abutted by the Clinton foundations strigoi like donors, pfnr oartnsrs of mark rich like kurzin and chagoyry.

    narciso (d1f714)

  164. , but surely you agree that Trump acted badly with respect to Gen. Kelly, right?

    I don’t agree. I can glimpse Trump’s thought process: Gen Kelley is a Gold Star parent, so ask him if Obama made such a call.

    It is disheartening to realize that an autistic person like myself, who supposedly suffers from lack of empathy and social “deficits”, has more empathy and tact, and more awareness of what not to say, than POTUS.

    kishnevi (704a68)

  165. Actually agent j and k might have been onto something coronello. They are the only publications who don’t ibservr the auinby like incuriosity about certain topics. Nice the inquirer leans one way, the globe and Co another.

    narciso (d1f714)

  166. I can glimpse Trump’s thought process: Gen Kelley is a Gold Star parent, so ask him if Obama made such a call.

    I can glimpse it too. Why does that mean he didn’t act badly? Is this the latest instance of grading this guy on a curve? Would you HIRE someone as crass as this to do any job at all? To sort mail? To answer your phone?

    Patterico (115b1f)

  167. But I didn’t think in my wildest dreams or nightmares that my congressperson, would be a harboring a clan of wholesale spies extortionists and real estate Banco artists who were hired by 50 den rats. Why is that nit a story. Instead of say Stuart smalleys cracked fairy tales.

    narciso (d1f714)

  168. Gosh, I don’t know but maybe its because smooth talk has gotten us very little in twenty fives like treaties written on monopoly paper, inconclusuve foreign engagements a hollowed out industrial base,
    Where a wildfire like the opioid academic can flourish with a few tweeksn a population of ignorant emotionally unstable youth, subjected to mind arson, those are the highlightd

    narciso (d1f714)

  169. Sonwe’ve made some progress with the pla boardrooms that calls itself china, re north Korea. We are starting to prune the weeds that the last decade of regulatory kudzu has wrought. We seem to have if not an out right victory, a hudna against the Islamic state, and we are moving at a snails pace toward legal sanity, Hawaii and marylabs are of course outliers.

    narciso (d1f714)

  170. You know what the difference is between SoS Tillerson calling him a ‘f-cking moron’ and a congresswoman calling him out for sounding insensitive at a time of grief?

    Nothing.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  171. Ah yes that but of fake news from three weeks ago, if vanity and fair and the tines could start their stories with ‘once upon a time’

    narciso (d1f714)

  172. Or seeing as it is the east century ‘a long time ago, in a galaxy far far away’

    Speaking of olden ehrenreich as Hans solo, what gives.

    narciso (d1f714)

  173. Has most recently known for abut part in a beatty film that practically no one saw. And they haven’t even optioned for digital streaming.

    narciso (d1f714)

  174. most people look where they are stepping

    mg (31009b)

  175. I’m kinda confused about this whole thing. “He knew what he was signing up for, but I guess it hurts anyway” doesn’t strike me as particularly offensive – although I suppose there’s a more eloquent way to state that families are affected by a loss of their loved ones in battle, even when soldiers make the individual decision the army. At least… that’s what I’m hoping Trump was getting at.

    lee (0c7da6)

  176. #FAKENEWSMIAMICBSLOCAL.COM:

    Rep. Frederica Wilson’s office claims multiple threatening phone calls directed at congresswoman came into her D.C. office on Wednesday.

    Her staff told CBS4’s Carey Codd the calls were directly related to the phone call from the president to the wife of Army Sgt. La David Johnson.

    The congresswoman’s staff said they alerted the Capital Police, Miami Garden Police and the threat division of the U.S. House of Representatives.

    Codd was told she is safe and that she is being protected at this point.

    Patterico (115b1f)

  177. What I figure happened here is that Trump said something clueless that either the widow took badly, or the Congresswoman got the widow to take badly.

    Then the Honorable Mr Wilson called all the scandal sheets (WaPo, HuffPo, etc) and got her version of the call out, as she “remembered” it.

    Trump denied he said any such thing (and he probably did not say the words the honorable Congressperson put in his mouth).

    Then 4 million phone calls to the widow later she says “yes, he hurt my feelings, I don’t quite remember what he said.” and *presto* confirmation.

    Kevin M (752a26)

  178. Rep. Frederica Wilson’s office claims multiple threatening phone calls

    There are 300 million people in this country. Some of them are certifiable. I hope they investigate. There is some chance those calls came from her staff or supporters. But if any of them were real, that would be one less crazy person walking the streets.

    Kevin M (752a26)

  179. McCain signs on to Democrats’ Facebook ad disclosure bill

    it seems to be one of those bills what just adds a bunch of regulation what will have n real effect on anything

    the purpose of the bill mostly being to validate poor hillary’s contention that some paltry amount of vague issue-related ads what maybe were purchased by someone in or near Russia have ensured that her criminal ass will never be president

    this is how sleazy coward-ass war hero John McCain chooses to spend his last days?

    marinating in his own bitterness and hate

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  180. Urban.

    Narco has roots, donchaknow?

    Ben burn (b3d5ab)

  181. “The black doctors I know, and I know quite a few, are usually descended from other doctors and their children tend to go to medical school, as well.”

    – Mike K

    And it never occurred to you, in light of this observation, that their success has way more to do with inherited wealth, opportunity, and status than IQ or race?

    Because that’s kinda the point. And that’s setting aside the structural and institutional racism which explains the differences in inherited wealth, opportunity, and status in America.

    Leviticus (efada1)

  182. that’s setting aside the structural and institutional racism which explains the differences in inherited wealth, opportunity, and status in America.

    That’s not (continuing) racism, that’s family history.

    Sammy Finkelman (3915d0)

  183. 179. lee (0c7da6) — 10/18/2017 @ 9:45 pm

    I’m kinda confused about this whole thing. “He knew what he was signing up for, but I guess it hurts anyway” doesn’t strike me as particularly offensive

    They’re trying to pin that on trimp as saying something bad, as meaning “he got what he deserved.”

    This is actually I think very similar to what soldiers write when they wrote letters that are supposed to be given to their loved ones if they get killed in action. It is so platitudinous that isn’t unreasonable to suppose that said something like that

    Sammy Finkelman (3915d0)

  184. this is how sleazy coward-ass war hero John McCain chooses to spend his last days?

    marinating in his own bitterness and hate

    be happy he doesnt one day want to give Donny Boy a big hug after whizzing past the security checkpoint. Thats when you head to the exits as fast as possible!

    urbanleftbehind (5eecdb)

  185. 142. kishnevi (98ea1b) — 10/18/2017 @ 6:39 pm

    We could have pointed out Trump’s alleged statement may have been inelegantly expressed, but was completely true.

    Trump brought in General Kelly, to back up his claim that other president’s didn’t a;ways call family members, which he made in the first place to show he was better than other presidents because he had been accused of ignoring the deaths at first. The Democrats then had tried to claim, without actually saying so, that Obama called everybody. So Donald Trump tossed out General Kelly’s name as proof he was right.

    The problems with that being:

    1. John Kelly shouldn’t have been on the list of people to call. General Kelly was not the next of kin.

    2. Trump didn’t call every family of soldiers killed this year, although he called some.

    The other issue was what Trump had said in the call. Trump’s response was to claim it was fabricated.

    And now I suppose we need Congressional hearings. Is it just ripped out of context, and what it meant misrepresented, or was any of that snippet totally made up?

    Sammy Finkelman (3915d0)

  186. It occurred to me between the time I first mentioned why Trump brought in General Kelly and the time I read he wonkette page tat it could be at General Kelly was not the next of kin. And he wasn’t.

    It also seems to be the case that actually in fact Obama did not place a telephone call to a member of the family of every single American serviceman killed in combat, as some Democrats tried to claim, but I await further fact-checking…

    Sammy Finkelman (3915d0)

  187. “If you’re ‘not in the family’ you don’t know how to make these calls…’ says CoS Kelly at the WH Briefing presser today.

    WADR to Kelly, and his own personal loss, military personnel aren’t the only walk of life to suffer loss, as first responders know all too well, and pretty much all of us w/family and friends know the pain and difficulty facing us when we have to ‘make that call’ at a passing.

    It’s never, never easy– whether you’re in uniform or civilian.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  188. Since folks are bringing up General Kelly, let’s hear what he has to say:

    John F. Kelly, the White House chief of staff, delivered an emotional, personal defense of President Trump’s call this week to the widow of a slain soldier, describing the trauma of learning about his own son’s death in Afghanistan and calling the criticism of Mr. Trump’s call unfair.

    Mr. Kelly said that he was stunned to see the criticism, which came from a Democratic congresswoman, Representative Frederica S. Wilson of Florida, after the president delivered a similar message to the widow of one of the soldiers killed in Niger. He said afterward he had to collect his thoughts by going to Arlington National Cemetery for more than an hour.

    In a remarkable, somber appearance in the White House briefing room, Mr. Kelly, a retired Marine general whose son was slain in battle, said he had told the president what he was told when he got the news.

    “He was doing exactly what he wanted to do when he was killed,” Mr. Kelly recalled. “He knew what he was getting into by joining that one percent. He knew what the possibilities were, because we were at war.”

    “I was stunned when I came to work yesterday, and brokenhearted, when I saw what a member of Congress was doing,” he said. “What she was saying, what she was doing on TV. The only thing I could do to collect my thoughts was to go walk among the finest men or women on this Earth.”

    https://www.nytimes.com/2017/10/19/us/politics/john-kelly-son-trump.html?_r=0

    Kevin M (752a26)

  189. Come on, Patterico. You know I don’t think well of Trump but even to me this looked like a setup or intentional misrepresentation of what he said. And after Kelly’s statement, it looks to me like the Trump statement is being taken out of context, and indeed might have been Trump repeating what Gen. Kelly told him.

    Trump’s only “skill” is getting people to overreact to him, Patterico. You really are letting him play you.

    SPQR (240837)

  190. The Bixby Letter:

    Executive Mansion,
    Washington, 21st November, 1864.

    Dear Madam,

    I have been shown in the files of the War Department a statement of the Adjutant General of Massachusetts that you are the mother of five sons who have died gloriously on the field of battle.
    I feel how weak and fruitless must be any word of mine which should attempt to beguile you from the grief of a loss so overwhelming. But I cannot refrain from tendering to you the consolation that may be found in the thanks of the Republic they died to save.

    I pray that our Heavenly Father may assuage the anguish of your bereavement, and leave you only the cherished memory of the loved and lost, and the solemn pride that must be yours to have laid so costly a sacrifice upon the altar of Freedom.

    Yours, very sincerely and respectfully,

    A. Lincoln.

    Mrs. Bixby.

    The Bixby Letter was almost certainly written for Lincoln’s signature by his then presidential secretary, later Teddy Roosevelt’s Secretary of State, the amazing John Hay. But one reason Hay was so beloved of Lincoln was that he came to hear “the Boss’ voice” in his head and then to write in that exact manner for Lincoln’s review and signature; the Bixby Letter became Lincoln’s prose by adoption, and while it’s interesting to note that it was actually written by Hay, that makes it no less a profound example of Lincoln’s thinking, writing, and speaking as a great American president.

    Even Donald J. Trump admits that Lincoln was “more presidential” than he is. Lincoln was also someone whom a large portion of the country despised from before and after his election, so much so that that election triggered the secession of the Confederate states. So Lincoln’s opponents, even more than Trump’s, had every incentive to take anything Lincoln said and try to twist it into something much more radical or synyster. But Lincoln also believe it is better to keep one’s mouth closed sometimes and be thought a fool than to open it and remove all doubt. More practically, in terms of politics, Lincoln was careful about what he wrote and said, and to whom, and when, in no small part to deny his opponents easy opportunities.

    I don’t think Lincoln talked about grabbing women by the p*ssy even to the fellows he’s just out-wrastled or beaten in a rail-splitting contest, for instance.

    Remember when, during the campaign, Trump was asked about his views on abortion in a news interview, and pronounced that women who get abortions should be guilty of a criminal offense? He said it because it was the thing he thought he was supposed to say for that audience. He isn’t a social conservative or a conservative or a thoughtful person, so this subject had never occurred to him, and since he doesn’t understand the people who do fit those descriptions, he guessed what he thought they most likely would want him to say.

    He only cares about the reaction, not the substance of anything he said, because the reaction is all about him, and that’s all he cares about.

    I doubt Trump was any more offensive or insensitive in this phone call with the war widow than he usually is. He was blurting out fragments of things he’s heard genuinely empathetic and feeling people say in similar circumstances — comments indistinguishable on their face, or as read in transcription — from those made by prior presidents going back to George Washington.

    Is the Left’s faux outrage entirely manufactured? Yes! Absolutely.

    Should Trump be more careful and more articulate? Duh. Frogs should also have wings so they can fly instead of bumping their butts on the ground when they jump, but let’s not any of us hold our breath waiting for the wings to grow on frogs or for Trump, when not reading from the ‘prompter, to become anything remotely resembling articulate, or, failing that, even careful in his speech.

    On my list of complaints about Trump, this isn’t in the top 5000.

    Beldar (fa637a)

  191. Trump admits..lol

    Ben burn (b3d5ab)

  192. synyster? Where did that come from? Why is Google autocorrect injecting names of obscure pop artists into my comments rather than simply helping me spell?

    *Sinister.

    Beldar (fa637a)

  193. Trump’s Chief of Staff confirms Trump is a liar but means well. I believe both parts are true. I also believe the American public is so worn down by Trump that we don’t care if he’s liar or if he means well. Just shut up for awhile.

    DRJ (15874d)

  194. Maybe Google is getting paid to promote certain things and people.

    DRJ (15874d)

  195. Lets see if the host responds to the comments of Gen. Kelly given today in the press room.

    Does the host continue to put credence in the public statements of the Congresswoman from Florida?

    I would note that the family has said Pres. Trump disrespected the fallen soldier. So far as I have been able to find, they did not verify the version of the conversation given by the Congresswoman who claimed to hear Trump’s words.

    Gen. Kelly did hear Trump’s words.

    So, who does the host place his trust in now that WE HAVE MORE FACTS ABOUT THE EVENTS — one again.

    This is simply another example of Patrick running with the initial press account of an event which comes with a clear anti-Trump slant, from an anti-Trump source, and holding it up as an unassailable fact which confirms his long-standing views of Trump as a person.

    In another environment this is called “confirmation-bias” — we over-indulge on events that confirm our world view, rather than waiting to see if more information might become available which adds to the picture of events.

    A similar example was Patrick’s criticism of Pence for taking a “side-trip” to the Colts v. 49ers football game in order to score cheap political points by making a scene out of leaving the game when some players — predictably — took a knee during the national anthem. He criticized the “stunt” because of what he claimed was the added expense of Pence flying from Las Vegas, back to Indianapolis, and then on to Los Angeles.

    But facts came out on day 2 that the trip to the football game was long-planned, and that it was the trip to Las Vegas was on very short notice just after the shooting, and that rearranged the travel schedule. The trip to Indianapolis was not an over-night trip, the advance work by the Secret Service would have been done two weeks earlier, so the savings of remaining in Las Vegas and then going on directly to Los Angeles would not have been as significant as was made out in the press.

    But hey — those are inconvenient facts.

    Patrick’s not reading my comments any longer, but maybe someone will ask him for his POV on the press-driven meme about the call to the fallen soldier’s wife now that Gen. Kelly has made his observations known.

    Or is Gen. Kelly part of the “Cult of Personality” that Patrick is worried about?

    shipwreckedcrew (7e501e)

  196. Drj: is wearing down the intended goal? It seems to be an effort to lower the bar on social contracts amongst us.

    Ben burn (b3d5ab)

  197. @Beldar:I don’t think Lincoln talked about grabbing women by the p*ssy

    He was not above using dirty jokes to win court cases. The manners of the time permitted men among other men to be extremely coarse in private and still be paragons in public.

    Frederick (64d4e1)

  198. @shipwreckedcrew:Patrick’s not reading my comments any longer, but maybe someone will ask him for his POV

    You might take a moment to consider what it is you hope to see as a result, and if the way you are going about it is likely to lead to that result, or lead farther away.

    Frederick (64d4e1)

  199. @ Leviticus, my respected friend, will you indulge me in some non-rhetorical questions re #185 above, in which you mentioned in passing “the structural and institutional racism which explains the differences in inherited wealth, opportunity, and status in America”?

    I really don’t know what that means, or rather, what you had in mind when you made this assertion. I’ve heard others make it, and didn’t know what they meant, but you’re someone I am comfortable asking, and I certainly don’t want to impute others’ views or explanations to you (or vice versa).

    Jim Crow laws certainly were examples of structural and institutional racism. De jure and/or de facto policies to refuse to hire blacks as police officers likewise were structural and institutional racism. Mortgage companies redlining neighborhoods based on race rather than default rates could be, I suppose, “structural and institutional” in a sense. But I’m guessing none of those things — whose illegality was established in the 1950s and 1960s for the most part — were exactly what you had in mind.

    I know there are still individual racists; indeed, I’m of the opinion that, as the song from Avenue Q goes, everyone’s a little bit racist at best; I don’t think of it so much as a fixed and immutable attribute which is either present or not, but rather a tendency that’s situational and contextual and that requires constant self-evaluation — much like greed.

    I likewise stipulate, not cheerfully but realistically, that there are settings in which individual acts of racism, perhaps overt but quite often implicit or subconscious, still have ugly consequences — and that includes some settings in which individual decision-makers (including, for example, police officers doing a traffic stop) are acting as as public servants, from which tragic results can and sometimes do flow. I don’t believe government can solve this continuous problem of individual hearts and minds by laws or policies or racial preferences and rules, but I do agree that we need continuing education and discussion and debate between our communities and tribes and interest groups (a process which government screws up more often than it actually facilitates, and that therefore should be largely a matter of private efforts both individual and collaborative).

    (An aside of my own: I also believe — but don’t necessarily expect you to agree; I really don’t know whether you will or not — that there is institutionalized and systematic racism in America directed against other groups than blacks. Specifically, I’m outraged that major private universities and even public universities systematically discriminate against Asian applicants, while simultaneously giving racial preferences to other groups. I’m in favor of absolutely strict enforcement of the equal protection clause, and I would have the government stop using race labels for any purpose whatsoever in the operation of public institutions. Regardless, I’m guessing this isn’t what you had in mind when you wrote your comment above.)

    So can you give some examples of the “structural and institutional racism” that you contend “explains the differences in inherited wealth, opportunity, and status in America”? I can’t for the life of me think of any way in which institutional racism prevents black families from gathering and passing down their wealth. Help me out here.

    Am I correct in guessing that we can agree that there are also other factors that also explain the “differences in inherited wealth, opportunity, and status in America”? If so, as compared to the United States in, say, 1900, 1950, 1975, and 2000, are the differences that you attribute to structural and institutional racism more or less pronounced now?

    Thanks in advance if you choose to respond to these questions, and of course, you need feel no obligation to do so.

    Beldar (fa637a)

  200. He was blurting out fragments of things he’s heard genuinely empathetic and feeling people say in similar circumstances — comments indistinguishable on their face, or as read in transcription — from those made by prior presidents going back to George Washington.

    I have seen this behavior in other folks who are totally over their head but won’t/can’t admit it. They seen and heard people their position do things. They have no idea why they said or did them, or when they were appropriate. So they repeat these things more or less at random, hoping that other people also have no clue.

    The always works with some people, never with everyone. Hmm. Maybe Lincoln was on to something there, too.

    Kevin M (752a26)

  201. So, is it racism that has largely African-American bureaucrats running failing state schools with largely African-American students? And if so, who’s the oppressor?

    Kevin M (752a26)

  202. DRJ — if you haven’t, I would strongly suggest that you watch Kelly’s statement, or read the transcript that the NYT has posted.

    For you to come to this subject, and take away from it that Kelly confirmed Trump is a liar — is just stunning.

    I must conclude that you have not seen the video or read the transcript. If you have, and its still your first reaction that Kelly confirmed Trump is a liar, then all hope for you is lost.

    You’re way too far into the gallon of Patterico Koolaid.

    shipwreckedcrew (7e501e)

  203. shipwreckedcrew,

    I’m not sure what message you want to send to Patterico since Kelly confirmed that Trump said what the Congresswoman said he said (contradicting Trump’s tweet denying he said it), and Patteric o has repeatedly said his concern is the family. My assumption is the widow put the President’s call on speakerphone for the Congresswoman to hear.

    DRJ (15874d)

  204. I wrote above in #195: “On my list of complaints about Trump, this isn’t in the top 5000.” By “this,” I meant his remark to the widow.

    The fact that he then punches down at an inconsequential congresscritter and turns this into another chapter in the continuing reality TV drama of “Apprentice President” — when he should be leading and getting an agenda through Congress — is among my top five complaints. But this is just one more fluid ounce in that river of juvenile drama.

    Beldar (fa637a)

  205. And anyone, anyonewho isn’t concerned with Cult figures in politics is just barmy..

    Ben burn (b3d5ab)

  206. frerericka Wilson, didn’t consider, nit surprising she’s a client of the wan bros, there would someone else on the side of the call

    narciso (d1f714)

  207. Have you watched the video or read the transcript of Kelly’s statement?

    shipwreckedcrew (7e501e)

  208. I thought Kelly’s statement was sincere, convincing, and from the heart. I appreciate him opening up about his son’s death when the reports make it clear he did not want to do that, but he did it to help the President. Trump is fortunate to have Kelly on his team. We all are.

    DRJ (15874d)

  209. What I heard was Kelly say that Trump told the widow her husband signed up for this. That was said as part of a message that her husband died as part of a team, doing what they were trained to do for their country. That’s a wonderful message but I thought the Congresswoman said Trump told the widow her husband signed up for this and Trump denied it, but Kelly’s statement said he did. I am not criticizing the content of context, merely noting that Trump did say what the Congresswoman said.

    DRJ (15874d)

  210. I meant to say Kelly talked about military deaths, not his son’s death, although I think there is overlap there.

    DRJ (15874d)

  211. I will be glad to pass along that you think I’ve drunk too much Patterico Koolaid. I hope you are having a bad day and you normally aren’t this cruel to people when they make you mad.

    DRJ (15874d)

  212. Now you ask why nit enough credit is given to posts favorable to the administration, except I take it as a socratic challenge its because sites develop a brand, much like you font credit the treehouse or breitbart because they have made some errors in the past, but as compared to the rizzotto tray top three,

    narciso (d1f714)

  213. @213. Yes but Kelly is CoS- a civilian position– and his comments today were clearly made from a military frame of mind– which is slightly disturbing. You wanna believe he did this dirty detail at the direction of the President and not on his own.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  214. There was also this interesting comment about an unnamed S FL Congresswoman:

    I’ll end with this. In April of 2015, I was still on Active Duty, I went to the dedication of the new FBI Field Office in Miami, and it was dedicated to 2 men who were killed in a firefight in Miami against drug traffickers in 1986. Guy by the name of Grogan, and Duke. Grogan almost retired, 53 years old, Duke I think less than a year on the job. Anyways, they got in a gunfight and they were killed. Three other FBI Agents were there and they were wounded, now retired.

    So we go down, Jim Comey did an absolutely brilliant memorial speech to those fallen men, and to all of the men and women of the FBI who serve our country so well, and Law Enforcement so well. There were family members there. Some of the children that were there were only 3 or 4 years old when their dads were killed on that street in Miami Dade. Three of the men that survived the fight were there and gave a rendition of how brave those men were and how they gave their lives.

    And a Congress Woman stood up and in a long tradition of empty barrels making the most noise, stood up there amid all of that and talked about how she was instrumental in getting the funding for that building. How she took care of her constituents because she got the money and how she just called up President Obama and on that phone call he gave the money, the $20 Million to build the building. And she sat down. And we were stunned. Stunned, that she had done it.

    Even for someone that is that empty of a barrel we were stunned. But you know, none of us went to the press and criticized. None of us stood up and were appalled. We just said OK, fine.

    Wonder who that might have been…

    crazy (d99a88)

  215. Beldar,

    I think you are right that Trump says things he hears, but I also think he meant well with this call. He probably wanted to say the right thing but, as we know well, he isn’t that articulate and uses as lot of verbal shorthand. It’s a shame this happened for both Trump and the family.

    DRJ (15874d)

  216. DC: It’s Semper Fidelis rather than Sic Semper Fidelis

    Ben burn (b3d5ab)

  217. Sic Semper Tyrannus

    Ben burn (b3d5ab)

  218. New FBI South Florida HQ Dedicated To Fallen Special Agents

    In a touching ceremony, the FBI and the General Services Administration officially named and dedicated their new headquarters to two fallen special agents who paid the ultimate sacrifice.

    “We will never forget it. This memorial is a good reminder but even without it, we will never forget. This building is both a memorial and inspiration,” said FBI director James Comey. …

    “Each time we walk through the doors of this building, now dedicated in their names, we’ll not only remember their honorable service but we will also carry their torch, the torch of fidelity, bravery and integrity,” said Special Agent in charge of the Miami Bureau George Piro.

    Thanks to Congresswoman Frederica Wilson, on Tuesday, President Barack Obama had signed the bill that dedicated the building to the fallen agents.

    What a coincidence.

    crazy (d99a88)

  219. when he should be leading and getting an agenda through Congress — is among my top five complaints. But this is just one more fluid ounce in that river of juvenile drama.
    Beldar (fa637a) — 10/19/2017 @ 4:27 pm

    You can lead a cowgirl to congress but you can’t make her vote.

    Pinandpuller (16b0b5)

  220. Except when she’s reverse cowgirl..

    Ben burn (b3d5ab)

  221. @222. Gotta– or wanna- believe Kelly did this on a directive from the President. Apparently it’s easier to punch down and berate a civilian member of Congress than the ‘f-cking moron’ he works for who spit out the word salad to begin with as he stood by and witnessed it– which he essentially confirmed today and made Trump out to be tweeting a liar– but we’re numb to that anymore, aren’t we.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  222. so…suppressive fire..?

    Ben burn (b3d5ab)

  223. Numb…is exactly the problema, DC.

    The cortex has surrendered to the lizard brain.

    Ben burn (b3d5ab)

  224. @ DRJ (#220): You give him credit for a greater capacity for empathy than I think he actually has, but I readily confess that neither I nor anyone knows what’s in his head and heart. When I assume that he cares only about himself (including how he’s perceived), that seems to me to best fit the data over decades, whereas if I presume he cares about family, for example, I can’t explain things like cutting off the nephew’s health insurance. I certainly hope that you have the right of it, though.

    Beldar (fa637a)

  225. He’s not a tyrant…so far.

    Ben burn (b3d5ab)

  226. To sum up, the inetire intelligence committee network was compromised including.
    Presumably operations in subsaharan africam

    narciso (d1f714)

  227. Eh?

    Ben burn (b3d5ab)

  228. I’m not about to read all the comments but I wonder how many have looked at General Kelly’s press meeting.

    If you haven’t, You should watch it.

    Mike K (b3dd19)

  229. @232. He learned his ethics from Roy Cohn; he’s ‘television generation’– “a ratings man,” which is, if you know your “Network”, a volatile industry subject to change, week to week… or day to day.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  230. Crazy, the news article does point to Wilson, but Debbie WS is also a congresswoman from South Florida, and she’s crass enough to have done that. So is Ileana Ros Lehtinen, although I can’t imagine her doing that, and Lois Frankel, who’s from West Palm Beach and therefore geographically unlikely to have been involved.

    kishnevi (5a999e)

  231. And it never occurred to you, in light of this observation, that their success has way more to do with inherited wealth, opportunity, and status than IQ or race?

    Because that’s kinda the point. And that’s setting aside the structural and institutional racism which explains the differences in inherited wealth, opportunity, and status in America.

    Leviticus

    Do you read your comments ?

    Mike K (b3dd19)

  232. I understand. Kelly wisely didn’t name her and I haven’t found a transcript but there are other articles as well as FBI Press info available from which you may draw your own conclusions.

    crazy (d99a88)

  233. Its just like Jose Rodriguez in his memoir, didn’t bother to name the punk apparatchik who tried to tried to claim he was some super interrogator

    narciso (d1f714)

  234. malia obama’s car is DISGUSTING

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  235. kishnevi, this whole episode has been driven by a lack of context. Kelly’s ending remarks added additional context as to why he was upset enough by the reporting to return to the briefing room and explain why the press has the story wrong. It wasn’t just that he felt Trump’s words were being misrepresented by Congresswoman Wilson it was also that he’d seen it himself once before.

    Our own bias and perception is obviously going to frame our response to anything Trump says or does. So be it. No matter how cynical one might be, I don’t know any reason why we shouldn’t believe General Kelly.

    crazy (d99a88)

  236. Crazy, Kelly criticized Wilson for criticizing Trump’s statements to the Johnson family (I agree with him on that, to be clear), but he essentially confirmed that Trump said what she said Trump said. He didn’t say she was lying, he said she had no reason to criticize Trump for what he said. She didn’t misrepresent what Trump said.

    kishnevi (5a999e)

  237. Something for Leviticus to read although I doubt he is interested in other opinions than his own.

    Still, it would be helpful for him to read.

    A better life has always been available to those who reject undisciplined and irresponsible behavior, and embrace self-determination and personal responsibility. So-called bourgeois values have always empowered blacks to persevere and overcome bitter oppression. They provided the moral “glue” that held the black community together during the hardest of times.

    The life-affirming values that enabled Douglass and others to survive retain their potency in the 21st century. Hundreds of examples of achievement against the odds prove this point. In cities around the country, activists like Bertha Gilkey have ousted drug dealers from public housing projects, transformed their communities, and sent hundreds of young people to college. Neighborhood moral mentors and character coaches from Washington, D.C., to Milwaukee have changed the behavior, attitudes and life trajectories of once-violent gang members.

    That is why black doctors are descended from black doctors and so on.

    Mike K (b3dd19)

  238. She didn’t misrepresent what Trump said.

    I suspect she edited it but what she related is not objectionable.

    He probably said more. That, however, will be the end of such calls.

    Mike K (b3dd19)

  239. i got your gold star right here

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  240. ” That, however, will be the end of such calls.”

    Which may be exactly the goal they were trying to obtain.

    Note: for some reason the blocks which enable italic, block quote etc. have disappeared from my page. Is there a problem with me or Patterico?

    Rev.Hoagie® (6bbda7)

  241. I suspect the quote in the John galt link summed up the point, but were supposed to believe memos never admitted to congress, dodge dossiers without the fundrrs, apocryphal rants ala Nixon, that is thevp currency of the realm.

    narciso (d1f714)

  242. I have them

    kishnevi (5a999e)

  243. If you’re gonna play in Congress

    You gotta have a hat and a sass

    A weave is kinda hot on a

    South Florida lass

    So batten down the hatch

    And neverTrump with our Ben Sasse

    If you’re gonna play in Congress

    You gotta have a hat and a sass

    A memorial in Miami Gardens

    It’s time to put on a show

    A cowgirl in a limo screamed

    “Prosecute Sheriff Joe!”

    She said “I sure miss Obama

    Boys don’t get me wrong

    Don won’t be president for long”

    So we mustered our outrage, gonna set CIC straight

    BLM “Raise the Roof!” with Trump’s Twitter update

    You say y’all want impeachment, you say you want Trump to go

    Wrote a song about it, like to hear it? Here it go:

    If you’re gonna play in Congress

    You gotta have a hat and a sass

    Extensions aren’t so great for a

    South Florida lass

    Let’s throw POTUS down a mineshaft

    Like Tsar Nicholas

    If you’re gonna play in Congress

    You gotta have a hat and a sass

    Pinandpuller (16b0b5)

  244. Hat versus Hat, Clarke / Wilson coming this spring to FOX News. With music provided by The Gap Band.

    urbanleftbehind (6a13e5)

  245. he essentially confirmed that Trump said what she said Trump said. He didn’t say she was lying, he said she had no reason to criticize Trump for what he said. She didn’t misrepresent what Trump said.
    kishnevi (5a999e) — 10/19/2017 @ 6:09 pm

    I disagree. Kelly did no such thing. This is simply the conclusion to which you (and others of like mind) wish to jump. Kelly reported his conversation with Trump, as touching upon the message that should be conveyed; When he said “that was the message,” he was referring to his conversation with POTUS, not the content of the Congresswoman’s allegations. That is your misunderstanding of Kelly’s words.

    There is a reason that Kelly told the story of the “empty barrel.” It was to high light the stunning inappropriateness of a politician injecting and drawing attention to oneself at a sensitive moment; just as Wilson had injected herself, most inappropriately, into what Kelly described as a “sacred moment,” and drawing great attention to herself. Kelly’s criticism of Wilson had nothing to do with Trump, but with Wilson’s befouling of a sacred moment.

    felipe (023cc9)

  246. the takeaway is don’t call these gold star limo chicks

    just don’t do it

    no upside

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  247. 220 — DRJ – I think this is a perfectly fair and accurate read of what happened. Trump expressed to the wife the sentiments that Kelly had explained to him — the things that Kelly knew about his son, and the things that Gen. Dunford said to him as his Casualty Officer when breaking the news.

    AS KELLY SAID, it was the Congresswoman who mischaracterized the comment in an unfair manner.

    Trump’s reaction via Twitter — which you characterize as a “lie” — was in response to the following (so far as I can tell):

    From the NYT:

    “Myeshia, the entire time, was in a ball, rolled up almost like in a fetal position crying,” Ms. Wilson said on Wednesday. “What he said was, ‘I guess he knew what he was signing up for but it still hurts.’ That’s how he said it.”

    So in other words, when you sign up when you go into the military, you are really signing up to die,” she said of the president’s comments. “That is not what you say to a grieving widow, a woman who just learned that her husband cannot have an open casket funeral. In fact, she will probably not even be able to see his body.”

    Ms. Wilson said she became “livid” at Mr. Trump’s comments, and motioned to the military officials in the limousine that she wanted to speak with the president herself. But she said they would not allow it.

    Instead, the conversation continued for several more minutes with Ms. Wilson crying.

    “When she got off the phone, she said, ‘He didn’t even know his name. He kept calling him, ‘Your guy,’ ” Ms. Wilson recalled the widow saying. “He was calling the fallen soldier, ‘your guy.’ And he never said his name because he did not know his name. So he kept saying, ‘Your guy. Your guy. Your guy.’ And that was devastating to her.”

    I suggest for your consideration that it wasn’t “he knew what he signed up for” that Trump was denying — he was denying the entirety of the characterization of his conversation given by Cong. Wilson that was printed in the Times.

    So far as I can find, the only comment by Trump, which you are calling a “lie”, is his Twitter comment ““Democrat Congresswoman totally fabricated what I said to the wife of a soldier who died in action (and I have proof). Sad!”

    Getting his facts the QUITE SLANTED WaPo article that Patrick linked, he captioned his post on the subject:

    “Trump’s Monstrous Insensitivity to the Families of Fallen Soldiers: Two Related Anecdotes.

    Everything in his post CREDITED Cong. Wilson’s account of the call, AS REPORTED IN THE NYT AND WAPO.

    Patrick then linked a WAPO article under using his own descriptor of “Just how much Kelly doesn’t like his son’s death being used for political purposes.”

    But today we have Gen. Kelly going before the cameras and talking about Pres. Trump’s call, and using his own experience in that regard as context for explaining why such calls are so difficult.

    I’m waiting to see if Patrick — after he gets off work — has any further thoughts on this issue given the new facts that have come out today.

    All I really wish he would do in his commentary here is simply WAIT a beat or two before seizing upon the first reporting from an overtly hostile press corps that will, at EVERY OPPORTUNITY — find fault with EVERYTHING Trump does rather warranted or not.

    There is NO FAULT to ascribe to Trump here. Maybe his execution wasn’t perfect, but the venality of the press reporting — which Patrick jumped on and amplified because it fits his TDS — was not just inaccurate, it was blatantly unfair.

    shipwreckedcrew (56b591)

  248. I found the General’s method of deciding who would get to ask a question, inspired.

    felipe (023cc9)

  249. when you go into the military, you are really signing up to die

    lol

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  250. What I want to know, is who decided to put the call on speakerphone? I would be surprised if the wife suggested it.

    I agree with Hoagie. Every honorable action Trump takes must be smeared and prevented from recurring using all possible means.

    felipe (023cc9)

  251. happyfeet (28a91b) — 10/19/2017 @ 6:47 pm

    I fail to see the humor – that’s a good thing.

    felipe (023cc9)

  252. 239. crazy (d99a88) — 10/19/2017 @ 5:45 pm

    Kelly wisely didn’t name her and I haven’t found a transcript but there are other articles as well as FBI Press info available from which you may draw your own conclusions.

    Here’s a transcript (and video, if you want)

    https://www.nytimes.com/2017/10/19/us/politics/statement-kelly-gold-star.html

    It probably took a couple of hours to become available. The transcript misses, or omits, some of the false starts and corrections, such as when he starts to say “by joining the Marines” but changes that to “the 1 per cent” and it doesn’t indicate any words that were emphasized.

    Neither does it indicate which words were pronounced unclearly (but it probably gets those right.)

    Sammy Finkelman (3915d0)

  253. I fail to see the humor – that’s a good thing.

    you have to laugh at people what say these things

    it’s de rigueur trust me

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  254. Seth Mcfarlane doesn’t get it:
    biblehub.com/john/15-13.htm

    narciso (d1f714)

  255. brb

    i needs must walk amongst the stones

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  256. I’m waiting to see if Patrick — after he gets off work — has any further thoughts on this issue given the new facts that have come out today.

    it’s now 7:09 in los angeles for sure

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  257. 243. kishnevi (5a999e) — 10/19/2017 @ 6:09 pm

    Kelly…essentially confirmed that Trump said what she said Trump said. He didn’t say she was lying, he said she had no reason to criticize Trump for what he said.

    That’s exactly right. Which leaves Trump’s defense the next morning on Twitter that what she said was “totally fabricated” hanging.

    She didn’t misrepresent what Trump said.

    I’m not sure Kelly didn’t say that. He wasn’t taking a position on whether Trump was genuinely misconstrued. Kelly spoke about

    what the President tried to say to four families the other day…in his way tried to express that opinion — that he’s a brave man, a fallen hero, he knew what he was getting himself into because he enlisted. ..That was the message that was transmitted.

    Transmitted.

    He allowed, in other words, that maybe it might not have been received correctly.

    Although he also said that she shouldn’t have listened in to the call in the first place, and if she found something wrong with what Trump said, she shouldn’t have said anything, and neither he nor anyone else said anything when a “congresswoman stood up, and in the long tradition of empty barrels making the most noise” (it was her) said something that was insensitive.

    The way she told the story, it could be understood like Trump was speaking about a sheep or a bull that went to the slaughter – he was supposed to get killed. Or maybe a daredevil. Evel Knievel. A man who went over Niagara falls in a barrel. “He was doing what he wanted to do.”

    She later on pointed out, or claimed, that Trump had not used the word “hero” even once in the call.

    Sammy Finkelman (3915d0)

  258. Trump, in his tweet, could have been responding to the interpretation of what he said, rather than the exact words Congresswoman Frederica Wilson quoted him as saying. (but his words, and the spin put on them, are not same thing, and you can’t say the account is totally fabricated in that case.)

    One commentator here found that interpretation * so ridiculous it was funny.

    * So in other words, when you sign up when you go into the military, you are really signing up to die

    …was how she interpreted his remarks to the widow.

    Sammy Finkelman (3915d0)

  259. @shipwreckedcrew. The previous post on this topic

    Trump’s Monstrous Insensitivity to the Families of Fallen Soldiers: Two Related Anecdotes

    …definitely needs an update, and there’s no particular evidence of what a news article attempts to say – that Kelly doesn’t like the defense that Obama didn’t call him, but Kelly did indeed confirm that what Trump said in his tweet, that Congresswoman Frederica Wilson’s account was “totally fabricated”…

    …was not true.

    What Trump said was misconstrued and twisted, maybe intentionally, maybe not so; and, in Kelly’s opinion, done by her for selfish reasons, even if that’s what she thought..

    Sammy Finkelman (3915d0)

  260. Beldar @204 – a few thoughts:

    I obviously agree that Jim Crow laws were good examples of structural and institutional racism. I do believe that mortgage redlining is also a good example of structural and institutional racism, and it was in fact one of the examples that I had in mind when I made my comment to Mike K. I edited an article in law school that contained a long discussion of redlining, GI Bill discrimination, and a few other racists policies as major factors in the wealth disparities in white and black America that persist to this day. The article was titled Reimagining Merit as Achievement. (Mike K might want to check it out, since we’re apparently suggesting reading for each other).

    I think there is a valuable discussion to be had regarding the point at which individual racism (in the Avenue Q sense, which I share) in State agents collectively becomes “institutional.” I don’t think there is an easy answer – but I tend to believe that past some difficult-to-define threshold, that does indeed become the case.

    But there are plenty of powerful structures and institutions in our society beyond the State. My impression (and correct me if I’m wrong) is that you come out of a BigLaw background. I was reading an article on Above the Law a couple of weeks ago, an interview with a recently promoted black partner at a BigLaw firm. The article acknowledged that this was a rare thing. Are we to believe that the scarcity of black CEOs, BigLaw partners, etc. is down solely to some meritocratic shortcoming in the population (as Mike K would have us believe)? Or are we to believe that there are structural and institutional forces that continue to impede the upward mobility of black people in America – not least of which is the highly amplified threat of becoming a target of police attention and violence?

    I agree with your aside. You are correct in guessing that we can agree that there are also other factors that also contribute to the explanation of the “differences in inherited wealth, opportunity, and status in America.” As compared to the United States in, say, 1900, 1950, 1975, and 2000, there are certainly differences that I attribute to structural and institutional racism that are less pronounced now.

    I view disproportionate application of violence by law enforcement as one of the key continuing sources of structural and institutional racism in America. I think the aftereffects of redlining, GI bill discrimination, and other forms of economic discrimination against blacks continue to have enough impact to qualify as structural and institutional racisms as well.

    Happy to continue discussing – I view this as a start.

    Leviticus (2bb722)

  261. Patterico, I think you should repost that post you wrote about the most important speech being an audience who gives you an honest hearing.

    nk (dbc370)

  262. I see some people are discussing Gen. Kelly’s presser. I just did a new post with the whole video and my thoughts on the topic. That is the best place to discuss the presser.

    Patterico (115b1f)

  263. Gah! the most important *part of* speech

    nk (dbc370)

  264. @Leviticus:The article acknowledged that this was a rare thing. Are we to believe that the scarcity of black CEOs, BigLaw partners, etc. is down solely to some meritocratic shortcoming in the population (as Mike K would have us believe)? Or are we to believe that there are structural and institutional forces that continue to impede the upward mobility of black people in America

    Why is this either/or for you? Why do you exclude the possibility that a lack of equal distribution of merit is due, at least in part, to structural and institutional racism?

    And given that this is so, perhaps getting to where we need to be cannot happen over a period time much shorter than that in which the structural and institutional racism was much stronger than now, without compromising merit at any rate.

    Frederick (f82baa)

  265. Patterico, I think you should repost that post you wrote about the most important speech being an audience who gives you an honest hearing.

    I would, but I doubt that the people here who need to read it would give it an honest hearing.

    Patterico (115b1f)

  266. Congresswoman Frederica Wilson to Politico, about what Whitw House Chief of Staff Kelly said today:

    Kelly’s trying to keep his job. He’ll say anything,

    I also heard a soundbyte in which she said Trump didn’t remember his name (rather than not know his name)

    Sammy Finkelman (3915d0)

  267. shipwreckedcrew,

    I’m not sure what message you want to send to Patterico since Kelly confirmed that Trump said what the Congresswoman said he said (contradicting Trump’s tweet denying he said it), and Patteric o has repeatedly said his concern is the family. My assumption is the widow put the President’s call on speakerphone for the Congresswoman to hear.

    Oh Good Lord. He’s trying to send a message to me? Nope, done. I agree that Kelly confirms the essence of what the Congresswoman said — but puts a different spin on how it was intended (and I am willing to believe his spin, as well as the fact that it was evidently not received in the spirit in which it was offered). As I said in my latest post (which is why I should not be commenting about this on this post), this stuff happens.

    Totally gone from everyone’s attention (except mine) is the ham-handed way in which Trump used the death of Kelly’s son to make a cheap political point. I’ll not be pretending that didn’t happen, even if many others will be.

    Patterico (115b1f)

  268. I also heard a soundbyte in which she said Trump didn’t remember his name (rather than not know his name)

    Discussed in my latest post; let’s take this discussion there please.

    Patterico (115b1f)

  269. @Leviticus: Take a less fraught example to see what I mean.

    You need to hire, say, 10 actuaries. You have a pool of candidates to choose from. You have 50 North Koreans, just freed from North Korea, with their poor childhood nutrition, stunted growth, and education of lies and propaganda, from a Communist nation where no one has any idea of finance and few people have ever even seen a computer. You have 50 South Koreans, who have labored under none of these disadvantages.

    If you hire on merit, on those best suited right now to be apt in position, all 10 are going to be South Koreans. The North Koreans are in no way culpable for their situation, but that does not change it. You can choose to hire, say 2 of them, perhaps, and be less effective than if you hired 0. But you did not rule North Korea and you did not make them what they were, and racial or ethnic animus does not enter in your decision making because they are the same ethnicity and race. You hired purely on merit, neither you nor the applicants did anything wrong, and yet you got the unbalanced result.

    Frederick (f82baa)

  270. Leviticus, your point about BigLaw illustrates how hard it is to give a hard and fast answer.
    Perhaps BigLaw is not keen on hiring blacks.
    But it’s possible that black lawyers are not keen on joining BigLaw. Most of the ones I know have been focused on working locally, as prosecutors or defense lawyers, or as general practice in their community, either solo or part of a small law firm, or for organizations (usually leftist in orientation) dealing with problems in the black community. Perhaps their preference for SmallLaw has its roots in conditions arising from segregation, but it is not evidence of lingering racism in BigLaw

    kishnevi (a1a81b)

  271. To pile on Frederick’s hypo:
    You can’t hire a North Korean if North Koreans are not interested in working for you.

    kishnevi (a1a81b)

  272. We are all punished for not picking our parents more wisely. You can’t equalize the circumstances of birth. At most, some individuals can rise above them. Or get away from them — that’s how America came about.

    nk (dbc370)

  273. 259. Thank you Sammy, but I was referring to a transcript of the dedication ceremony of the new FBI building Kelly was talking about.

    crazy (d99a88)

  274. swc:

    I suggest for your consideration that it wasn’t “he knew what he signed up for” that Trump was denying — he was denying the entirety of the characterization of his conversation given by Cong. Wilson that was printed in the Times.

    I suggest for your consideration that if that’s what Trump meant to deny, he should have said it.

    BTW, what do you think about Kelly’s statement regarding Cong. Wilson’s role in getting money for the FBI building at Miramar, given the fact that the building’s funding was authorized before Wilson even took office?

    DRJ (0280d9)

  275. #goldstarmakeitrain

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  276. 281 — the reporting is that Congress appropriated $144 million for the building in 2010.

    The final cost of the building was $194 million.

    So Congress had to appropriate additional $50 million after 2010.

    Buildings like this — and the FBI built several new buildings in various cities over the last 10 years (trust me, I have reason to know that) because of security short-comings in many of their existing offices at that time — were part of Obama’s much touted $1 trillion stimulus after he first came into office.

    Cong. Wilson was elected in 2010, after having strongly supported his campaign in 2008 — when re was running against Hillary Clinton — as an elected state representative in Florida.

    So when she gets elected in 2010 — the election in which the GOP took over the House after gaining 63 seats to take control from Nancy Pelosi.

    How many newly elected Dems were there to the House in 2010???

    Only 2 GOP members lost re-election to a Dem. So that would be 2 new Dem members in an otherwise wave GOP year.

    One open seat previously held by a GOP member was won by a Dem. So that’s 3 newly elected Dems.

    There were 5 first time winners among Dems who replaced previous House members who were also Dems.

    So that’s only 8 — out of a Dem Caucus of 193 — who were newly elected.

    So, do I think that Frederika Wilson, an active Obama supporter from Florida, who was one of only 8 newly elected Dems to the House in 2010, got special attention from the White House to help her in her district??????

    LOL.

    Hmmmmmm.

    shipwreckedcrew (56b591)

  277. 281 — Twitter = 140 characters.

    Trump didn’t give a speech or answer a question from the press in the Rose Garden.

    Or do you REALLY think Trump’s tweet was meant as a denial that the words passed from his lips, under circumstances where he knows other people were with him in the Oval Office when he made the call, and heard his end of the conversation????

    Don’t make me laugh again.

    shipwreckedcrew (56b591)

  278. It seems kind of improbable when you put it that way, then again. The new York times can pretend not to read their own paper, to get from under a blood libel suit.

    narciso (d1f714)

  279. I’m glad you are so certain about everything, swc. Best wishes.

    DRJ (15874d)

  280. i love Mr. shipwreck don’t mind saying so

    the fbi on the other hand is slutty putrid and corrupt

    i got your mulder right here

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  281. oh wait that’s scully

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  282. What I’ve seen is that Wilson’s legislation involved the naming of the building, not the funding.

    DRJ (15874d)

  283. Here is that legislation.

    DRJ (15874d)

  284. they’re both partial to the odd cuddle

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  285. I think the series jumped the shark last season.

    narciso (d1f714)

  286. i read the reviews and skipped it like kingsman 2 electric boogaloo

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  287. Also, the building came in at $156M:

    The $156 million price tag is actually substantially less than the original expected cost, which was $190 million, according to a post last year by The Next Miami.

    DRJ (15874d)

  288. Yes, Wilson pushed through in 4 weeks the legislation necessary to name the building after the slain FBI agents. That’s not being denied by anyone.

    The question is whether that was what she took credit for at the dedication of the building, or was it what Kelly said she took credit for. Comey is reported in the press as having credited her at the dedication for getting the legislation through so quickly. Miami news outlets have published that they have looked for a transcript of her comments but have not found one. I can pretty much PROMISE you that either GSA or FBI has a video of the event, and it will surface soon enough. I’ve been to 6-7 of these ceremonies — at least 4 federal buildings and courthouses, and 2 FBI HQ buildings that I can think of. There is always a video camera recording the event.

    As for 294, you have an article from Dec. 2014.

    Here is one from Apr. 2015, which says “after final build-out” — meaning all the tenant improvements needed by the FBI — the total cost will be $194 million.

    Federal buildings are owned by GSA, and leased by the agencies who use them. So, after the building is constructed, GSA then goes about building out the interior space to the specific needs of the particular agency that is going to occupy the building. Post 9-11, the FBI adopted much higher security requirements for its buildings than was the case before 9-11. Many big cities had new buildings constructed because it made more sense financially to build a new building with a 45 year life span, than to retrofit old buildings to bring them up to standard when they had much shorted expected life spans. GSA has a standard for federal buildings that they become outdated after 35-40 year, and should be replaced in inventory after 45 years.

    And, many people are surprised to learn this, but even today many FBI Divisions spend millions of dollars every year leasing office space in ordinary office buildings when they run out of room at their older FBI building. But this leased space normally can’t be brought up to the required security specifications, so not all FBI work can go on in the leased space. That problem led to a boom in building FBI buildings starting around 2005, and continuing on through today, in order to consolidate all FBI work under one roof.

    I don’t know if the difference between your article’s number of $156 million, and the second articles number of $194 million had to do with the build-out expense, but I would guess that it does. For that not to be the case, this would have to be the only GSA project in a century to come in 20% under budget. Frankly, having been tangentially involved with the building of both the new Federal Building in Fresno, and the new Federal Building in Sacramento, I can say almost catagorically that there is no way a federal building construction project was brought in by the contractor at 20% under the budgeted amount. That’s Fantasyland.

    shipwreckedcrew (56b591)

  289. https://www.local10.com/news/more-about-fbis-new-high-performing-hub-for-south-florida-operations

    That’s the link. Sorry not sure what I did wrong.

    shipwreckedcrew (56b591)

  290. I know this stuff because I once prosecuted a GSA contract officer for fraud with regard to construction of a federal building used by the National Park Service.

    shipwreckedcrew (56b591)

  291. Wilson hasn’t represented Miramar since it was redistricted effective 1/3/2013, so her involvement likely ended at the end of 2012. Since then, Republican Tom Rooney has been its Representative. Wouldn’t be have been more likely to ask for any additional funding, especially since the overruns occurred after 2012?

    In addition, Republican Rep Mario Diaz-Balart sits on the House Appropriations Committee. Isn’t it likely he played a role? He was also at the dedication.

    DRJ (15874d)

  292. It appears Wilson got involved in the naming legislation as a consequence of her prior representation of the people in that district. Maybe the officers/agents were also some of her constituents. But I don’t think she would be likely to ask for appropriations outside her district.

    DRJ (15874d)

  293. Maybe there weren’t any overruns.

    DRJ (15874d)

  294. @ Leviticus (#267): You don’t disappoint, my friend, thank you for the civil and thoughtful answer.

    You’re right that I did BigLaw for just over dozen years at three firms, roughly 1981-1993. When I started, there weren’t many partners who weren’t white males, but there were a few. When I finished, there weren’t very many more who weren’t white males. I was heavily involved at all three in recruiting out of law school, and eventually as a partner, I was involved in promotion decisions too. From my anecdotal and personal experience within those firms, I know beyond any shadow of a doubt that each of them, by the time I got there, had embraced a private version of affirmative action in good-faith efforts to reverse the institutional racism and sexism of prior decades. They all had far more success, though, in their efforts to recruit and promote women than black men; if, as an amateur sociologist, I were to make guesses as to why, it would be that there was already a large pool of women whose social and educational skills and goals made them good candidates for the those jobs as soon as the institutional barriers of discrimination — unwritten rules, but rules nonetheless — were reversed and replaced with their opposite. But BigLaw in general is a particularly slow-moving indicator of social trends because of the length of the pre-partnership associate track; and the outflow of successful black lawyers who’ve come up through that system to partnership levels is fierce, with those partnership positions often being traded for judgeships or other appointed and elected political offices. (Houston’s current city attorney, for instance, is a black lawyer who I helped recruit and train at Baker Botts, which would dearly love to still have him as a partner instead, not only because he’s a superb lawyer and fine man, but because he’d help their diversity statistics.) In the rest of the practice of law outside the BigLaw environment, which of course makes up the overwhelming majority of the careers most lawyers pursue, however, it seems to me that there’s neither continuing “institutional” biases among private institutions, nor (more importantly or at least urgently to me) among governmental employers.

    If I look at the problems of race and racism in my own profession and locality, the weeping sore of continual failure is actually a remnant of the earliest days of the mid-20th century civil rights movement, Texas Southern University’s Thurgood Marshall School of Law. It was originally created by the Texas Legislature to be a “separate but equal” law school to avoid losing the lawsuit they ultimately lost anyway, Sweat v. Painter, when then-still-segregated Texas Law School denied admittance to Herman Sweat a few years before Brown v. Board. That entire sad institution has become the institutional poster child for the soft bigotry of low expectations, and its graduates (which are still mostly black, as is the faculty & administration) have by far the highest failure rate on the Texas bar exam year-in and -out. Its graduates are the opposite of well-respected by the community, which is not to say that none of its graduates succeed, but instead to say that they succeed despite the terrible and deserved reputation of their school. It would cause a huge outcry, but I genuinely believe the most racially enlightened thing that could be done with that law school (as opposed to TSU’s undergrad programs) would simply be to close it down. Despite its origins and best intentions, I think it now actually promotes, as an institution, ongoing private racial discrimination, rather than the opposite. Certainly if one looked objectively at the results being obtained for the taxpayer from this publicly funded school, leaving aside its history and all questions of race, one must conclude that this particular institution has been an utter failure, indeed, a disservice to the public and its students alike.

    Re this:

    I think there is a valuable discussion to be had regarding the point at which individual racism (in the Avenue Q sense, which I share) in State agents collectively becomes “institutional.” I don’t think there is an easy answer – but I tend to believe that past some difficult-to-define threshold, that does indeed become the case.

    I would say those thresholds aren’t just difficult, but impossible, to define. Ultimately they have to rely upon one group of people’s subjective assessment of what’s in the hearts and minds of another group of people, and it’s therefore guesswork, with a high degree of imprecision and accompanying high degree of mistake. If one starts rewriting, or even tweaking, the rules and policies of the institution to try to address this guesswork, then one’s abandoned both principle and practicality, and the attempted fixes are likely to make things worse. I’m in mind of the point made by steve57, for example, speculating that the recent collisions of American Navy warships might be the result of a focus in training on things like “diversity” and “tolerance” in lieu of training on basic seamanship; taking that as a metaphorical jumping off place, when you start trying to chart the course based on feelings and guesswork instead of charts and compasses, you might as well cut loose the ship’s rudder and go where the currents take you.

    And re this:

    I view disproportionate application of violence by law enforcement as one of the key continuing sources of structural and institutional racism in America. I think the aftereffects of redlining, GI bill discrimination, and other forms of economic discrimination against blacks continue to have enough impact to qualify as structural and institutional racisms as well.

    This confuses me a little; is the violence a manifestation or a source of racism? And if the governmental institution, law enforcement, has indeed long since changed its official policies and rules, why attribute the racism that may still pop up, sometimes disastrously, in individual encounters to the institution? The example I have in mind is a traffic stop made by, say, a black and hispanic cop of a young, male, black man driving a fast, flashy car in a bad neighborhood. Approaching that car, those officers — despite their own racial identities and histories, but also in some measure because of their own individual and anecdotal experiences with race, sex, social, and economic factors — are more likely to be clearing their weapons for ready access than if they’d just pulled pallid old me over instead. I’m troubled by that, but I don’t think it has anything to do with institutional racism still resident in their institutions. And I likewise don’t think the solutions involve further changes in rules or policies of those institutions. To the contrary, I think that’s a red herring that diverts attention from the real and ongoing sources of those problems — which in contrast to the general success we’ve had in rooting out institutional discrimination, I perceive as getting worse since 1900, 1950, 1975, or 2000. I very frankly blame the Democratic Party and its deliberate fostering of racial and other identity group politics, as well as the well intentioned but disastrous policies it promotes (e.g., sanctuary cities), but that’s probably at least one bridge too far for you, I’d guess.

    Beldar (fa637a)

  295. “They all had far more success, though, in their efforts to recruit and promote women than black men; if, as an amateur sociologist, I were to make guesses as to why, it would be that there was already a large pool of women whose social and educational skills and goals made them good candidates for the those jobs as soon as the institutional barriers of discrimination — unwritten rules, but rules nonetheless — were reversed and replaced with their opposite.”

    – Beldar

    This is an important point to discuss, I think. If we can acknowledge that institutional discrimination often exists beyond Jim Crow laws, redlining, etc., in the form of unwritten rules, then we have to actively assess A) what the unwritten rules are for black people, and B) whether those rules have been “reversed and replaced with their opposite” as you’ve noted with respect to women in the workplace.

    I should note that I did not mean to single out BigLaw – it was just an example that occurred to me from that recent article.

    Leviticus (efada1)

  296. More to follow – gotta step away from the computer for a moment.

    Leviticus (efada1)

  297. “Is the violence a manifestation or a source of racism?”

    – Beldar

    I think it’s both. Ta-Nehisi Coates talks a lot about this in Between the World and Me – the message that is sent to black people when unjust violence is perpetrated on black people by the State and goes unpunished. That message is: black bodies are worth less than white bodies. That message, when internalized by whites or blacks, is a major source of racism in America.

    You use the following as an example:

    “The example I have in mind is a traffic stop made by, say, a black and hispanic cop of a young, male, black man driving a fast, flashy car in a bad neighborhood. Approaching that car, those officers — despite their own racial identities and histories, but also in some measure because of their own individual and anecdotal experiences with race, sex, social, and economic factors — are more likely to be clearing their weapons for ready access than if they’d just pulled pallid old me over instead. I’m troubled by that, but I don’t think it has anything to do with institutional racism still resident in their institutions.”

    I’m interested to hear your thinking on this point. If we can disregard, to any degree, the personal and racial identities, histories, and experiences of the officers – which your example seems to do – and still agree that the officers are more likely to be clearing their weapons for a young black male than an old(er!), white male, then doesn’t that point to the institutional itself being at least a partial source of their disparate reactions?

    Leviticus (efada1)

  298. @Leviticus:then doesn’t that point to the institutional itself being at least a partial source of their disparate reactions?

    If you mean the institution of policing, not necessarily, because other forms of institutional racism unrelated to policing may be responsible for the disparate rates of violent crime. But the crime rates are what policing is tasked with, and they must deal with the facts as they are, not as how they might be in a more justly ordered world.

    Frederick (64d4e1)

  299. Anything going to be retracted?

    http://minx.cc:1080/?post=372106

    Fred Z (05d938)

  300. Constanly new ELITE and SOCKS5 proxies here: https://publicproxy.net

    Sandra Lewis (65949e)

  301. Leviticus (efada1) — 10/20/2017 @ 12:06 pm

    the message that is sent to black people when unjust violence is perpetrated on black people by the State and goes unpunished.

    That’s not true, and it was just proven by a study of body cameras in Washington D.C.

    Now unjust violence perpetrated on black people by people who are NOT working for the government does go unpunished. But people like Ta-Nehisi Coates don’t want to see it punished.

    By the way, the place where agents of the state use unjust violence against people, often blacks, is in the jails, not on the street, but they don’t want to talk about that because people might ask what are so many black people doing in jail in the first place?

    Sammy Finkelman (20d02d)

  302. 305. Frederick (64d4e1) — 10/20/2017 @ 12:12 pm

    But the crime rates are what policing is tasked with, and they must deal with the facts as they are, not as how they might be in a more justly ordered world.
    A better run world maybe. It would have extremely low rates for every category of person.

    If you try to ignore the differences in crime rates, or pretend they don’t exist, all that you will get is an even greater discrepancy. Now it is important to judge people individually and not according to what could be more usual, and that extends also to the type of clothing they are wearing. Al Capone dressed his hoodlums in suits and ties.

    Sammy Finkelman (20d02d)


Powered by WordPress.

Page loaded in: 0.8859 secs.