Patterico's Pontifications

10/8/2017

Pence Walkout Was a Cynical, Expensive, Pre-Planned Stunt

Filed under: General — Patterico @ 6:00 pm

Susan Wright noted earlier that Mike Pence walked out of the Colts/49ers game, ostensibly because he was offended that the 49ers decided to “take a knee” during the national anthem.

Here’s the thing: he knew this was going to happen. The press was told to remain in the parking lot, and not even to bother coming in — as Pence would be leaving early.

Pence knew the 49ers would take a knee. Look at the timing. Trump made his incendiary “get that son of a b*tch off the field” remarks on September 22. The 49ers’ next game was October 1, and the 49ers very visibly took a knee during that game against the Cardinals:

The next game after that was today. And guess what? Press reports had already made it clear that the 49ers were going to continue their protests. It is well known: “The 49ers have been among the most visible protesters in the league.” Consider this interview with Eric Reid, in which he indicated that he planned to continue doing this:

Q: Will you protest throughout the season?

“I do plan on that, yes.”

Q: You talked to the 49ers PR staff but not the coach. What plans do you have in talking to the organization about it?

A: “Well I had a talk with Jed (York, the 49ers CEO) last year and he told me how he felt about the situation, that he believes it’s my right to do so and he wasn’t going to say anything to make me feel I need to stop doing it. I think that’s awesome that he just has a good heart and allows me to do it.”

And Trump said in a tweet that he ordered Pence to leave the game if anyone took a knee:

Which, as I just demonstrated, it was already clear was going to happen.

This was nothing more than a stunt. A premeditated and incredibly cynical stunt. I was going to call it a “cheap stunt” — but that would be wildly inaccurate, because it actually cost the taxpayers quite a lot of money. Consider: Pence had just been in Las Vegas, and his next stop was Los Angeles, a short plane flight west — but he instead flew all the back to Indianapolis for this photo op, taking his entourage and his security detail with him. The streets doubtless had to be blocked off for his motorcade. I’m quite sure special security precautions were taken for the Vice President of the United States. And all along, he planned to engage in a tawdry, pre-planned sham performance — with all the expense that entails — just to get people embroiled in a cynical culture war.

I agree with Ed Krayewski at Reason:

Pence certainly knew the history of the 49ers in the protests, or should have. . . . But had he simply chosen not to attend, he couldn’t have put on this show. That required giving money to the organization he claims he’s boycotting.

But Pence’s move isn’t about a genuinely-held belief. It’s a rank political stunt at the expense of taxpayers, and reveals the self-masturbatory nature of much of what government officials do.

Pence dragged Secret Service out to Lucas Stadium, only to throw a hissy fit and walk out.

I would add only: that was the plan all along.

Look: I personally disagree with the concept “taking a knee” during the national anthem. I always — always — stand up tall, put my hand on my heart, and sing. Not because some politician tells me to, but because I love my country. I set that example for my children. I don’t like these protests.

But I’m not going to sit for lectures about respecting our soldiers from Donald “I like people who weren’t captured” Trump or his pathetic toady Mike Pence. And I’m not going to let myself be hoodwinked by their horsesh*t antics. They planned this, they knew it would happen, and it is a manipulative, self-absorbed con job.

Just how stupid do you think we are?

If they want to pull something like this as a sort of campaign stunt, let them pay for it with campaign money. Don’t bill the taxpayers for this. This is why people hate government.

[Cross-posted at RedState and The Jury Talks Back.]

355 Responses to “Pence Walkout Was a Cynical, Expensive, Pre-Planned Stunt”

  1. Trump wants to take credit from Pence: has tweeted he told the Veep to leave if any players took a knee.

    Every tax dollar wasted on this farce should be accounted for. OTOH, don’t blame him; lived in Indy– couldn’t get out of there fast enough, either.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  2. Eh, not really caring a whole lot about the Pence outrage.

    So what if they knew it was going to happen? And how do they know what Pence genuinely believes? And isn’t everything Colin doing and the rest of them one big stunt?

    I dropped my season tickets after last year before Trump ever weighed in. Because of Colin, because of ESPN, because of gun control speeches on half time shows.

    They ruined my favorite sport. Trump and Pence are giving voice to those of us who are fed up with this nonsense. Do I care if it’s theater? No.

    But I am offended by those of you who are offended by the guys who are helping to burn it down. NFL delenda set. Trump is not leading me to dislike the NFL. I was already there. He is helping us.

    You on the other hand are simply annoying by pretending like we don’t get it or that if we somehow engage in one piece of theater as push back against all the theater the left engages in somehow we are bad.

    I didn’t vote for Trump in the primaries, I have read Patterico for a long time – but I just don’t get this endless desire to criticize Trump for pushing back on the targets that so richly deserve it – and winning too. First Republican in forever interested in winning some element of the culture war and we stand in a circular firing squad?

    Meh, just don’t get it.

    PrincetonAl (b792ad)

  3. I’m with you Al, the outrage machine is starting to smoke and shake.

    harkin (2184e5)

  4. But will Jason Aldean get the Dale Jr. treatment for going on SNL last night? (Michaels, Miller, Piscopo, Jackson, and MacDonald notwithstanding).

    urbanleftbehind (847a06)

  5. Good

    jcurtis (e6bb6a)

  6. One thought they might consider the circumstances if the last week, and put things in perspective, but these overpaid popinjays are singlehandedly torpedoing the game.

    narciso (d1f714)

  7. There’s no doubt this was a calculated decision designed to stoke the current controversy, which was likewise deliberately created by Trump. Peyton Manning’s number being retired is a big deal in Indiana, though, and Pence, the immediate former governor of that state, is uniquely positioned to make an emphatic symbolic statement. And he did.

    This isn’t the kind of presidential leadership I prefer, nor is the choice of issues (protests by NFL athletes) one I think Team Trump ought to be focusing on. I’m repelled by the protests, but I was likewise repelled by Trump’s injecting himself into it. Given that he has, however, and given that for the previous eight years we regularly saw Obama engage in rhetoric and symbolism that I likewise found thoroughly repugnant:

    I’m not upset by the expense associated with it. The POTUS and VPOTUS have security everywhere, all the time. More, yes, when they appear in public, but their jobs involve them appearing in public. Trump’s trip to Puerto Rico was also an entirely symbolic and deeply political action, one that cost the public more than if he’d stayed home, and a damned uneconomical delivery system for a roll of paper towels. But I don’t begrudge the fact that we have to pay to protect the POTUSes and VPOTUSes who’re making symbolic trips and appearances, even when I disagree with their choices about what symbolic trips and appearances they want to make. The fact that expense was associated with it doesn’t make the behavior any more reprehensible, in other words, even if that’s your take on the stunt. And Trump supporters, and no small number of others who support him on this particular issue, don’t think it’s reprehensible for Trump, through Pence, to be staging this counter-protest, so they’re certainly not going to begrudge the expense.

    Beldar (fa637a)

  8. I also suspect Trump spent some time this weekend pacing back and forth and muttering to himself, “Three f’g dollars in damages, trebled! One dollar times three for my big, beautiful football league! Three dollars?!? I’ll show those SOBs what kind of damage I can do to them now. So you can take your three f’g dollars and ….”

    Beldar (fa637a)

  9. It’s an outrage! Not only did Pence make a statement for America but he probably sent his dog on a separate plane. An outrage I tell you! Oh, the humanity!

    Eight years of beer gardens, fly-ins for political rallies on the taxpayer dime, separate vacations, separate planes on the same vacation, private planes for dogs and now Pence is the bad guy for standing up to the spoiled millionaires disrespecting the country I fought for. There’s a war going on here folks and you’re either for the people who stand for the anthem or kneel for it.

    We have elections for a reason and win or loose you’re still expected to love your country and respect it. If they can’t do that they shouldn’t be here. What, because Trump won and they hate Trump it is a legitimate reason to disrespect the nation? That’s childish and absurd. Did we conservatives kneel because Obummer won? Obummer won an election but we still loved our country. This is all racial bull crap invented by Black Lies Matter and this is tearing us apart. These pigs are not being paid to protest they’re being paid to play ball. If they won’t do that they shouldn’t get paid at all.

    Rev.Hoagie® (6bbda7)

  10. PrincetonAI sez:

    But I am offended by those of you who are offended by the guys who are helping to burn it down. NFL delenda set. Trump is not leading me to dislike the NFL. I was already there. He is helping us.

    This is the third comment you have left on my blog. I checked. Your previous comments, left during the primary season, show you to have been a Rubio supporter, and then a Cruz supporter. In other words, you are not a dyed-in-the-wool Trumper. That gives you some credibility.

    Yet you use your third comment on this site to proclaim yourself “offended” by . . . my post, I guess. Then you call me “annoying”:

    You on the other hand are simply annoying by pretending like we don’t get it or that if we somehow engage in one piece of theater as push back against all the theater the left engages in somehow we are bad.

    Your comment seems inconsistent as to whether you believe this was a stunt. You sort of careen back and forth between “so what if it was”:

    So what if they knew it was going to happen?

    to “maybe it wasn’t”:

    And how do they know what Pence genuinely believes?

    to (as I read it) “of course it was and how dare you insult my intelligence by suggesting I don’t know that”:

    You on the other hand are simply annoying by pretending like we don’t get it or that if we somehow engage in one piece of theater as push back against all the theater the left engages in somehow we are bad.

    (I just quoted that a second time, but for a different purpose than I quoted it the first time.)

    I’m a little torn. Usually when someone comes on here and whines that I am being unfair to Trump, I quickly lose patience and include that person’s handle in my growing list of people whose comments I no longer read, thanks to the comment script on the sidebar. The Haikus and harkins and Mike Ks who spend their time whining about my criticism of Trump are all effectively muted now.

    And so are you. But I still hold out a tiny bit of hope.

    So. I have muted you. But I have not completely written you off. If you are truly interested in a rational dialogue, send me an email. Make your case. Try to omit your complaints about how I am annoying and how I have offended you — that is the sort of whinging that caused me to block you here on the site. Instead, engage me in a genuine and honest way. If you want.

    If not, you can do your boring Trump-cheering here for the benefit of an adoring crowd. I won’t see it, but others will.

    It’s your choice.

    Patterico (115b1f)

  11. In the first sentence of #7, I ought to have said “inflamed” rather than “created.”

    Beldar (fa637a)

  12. the national nfl pedophile league

    what they’re doing is poisoning the minds of children with their unreasoned america-hate

    not so much the children of privilege

    but regular american children, many of whom what are minorities what need to stay focused on school family and work ethic and shoulder to the grindstone type stuff

    the national nfl pedophile league wants then to take a knee in seventh grade and get their america-hate on at the expense of their education and their alignment with the values of success and community

    me i stand with Mr. Mike Pence and i oppose this crass NFL pedophile exploitation of children, and i abjure the NFL’s attempt to poison young baby-child hearts and minds against the ideals of capitalism and freedom and liberty

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  13. oopers he national nfl pedophile league wants *them* to take a knee in seventh grade i mean

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  14. ugh *the* i mean brb i just got home from taking the cousins to pizza i need to settle in a bit more i think

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  15. To a lot of people, Trump’s injection of himself into this turned showing respect for the flag into showing support for Trump. It’s not a matter of loving one’s country, it’s now (in their view) a matter of showing support for Trump because he’s demanding it. And the more he demands they do it, the less inclined they will be to do it. And if something is so sacrosanct that it must be respected, then it’s an idol that should be disrespected.

    If Trump really wanted people to reject the kneeling, he’d shut his mouth.

    kishnevi (8ce7fb)

  16. President Hillary would gladly get on her knees with the boys.

    mg (31009b)

  17. Beldar,

    You always make me think. In a commenting environment where I pay attention to fewer and fewer people, yours are always comments that I will take the time to read, and digest, and respond to respectfully.

    I agree with you that “this was a calculated decision designed to stoke the current controversy” and that the controversy “was likewise deliberately created by Trump.”

    I agree with you that “[t]his isn’t the kind of presidential leadership I prefer, nor is the choice of issues (protests by NFL athletes) one I think Team Trump ought to be focusing on.” Like you, ” I’m repelled by the protests, but I was likewise repelled by Trump’s injecting himself into it.” I also agree that “for the previous eight years we regularly saw Obama engage in rhetoric and symbolism that I likewise found thoroughly repugnant.”

    Then we come to your last paragraph, wherein you proclaim yourself undisturbed by the expense. Let me quote it so I am careful to react to exactly what you wrote. You say:

    I’m not upset by the expense associated with it. The POTUS and VPOTUS have security everywhere, all the time. More, yes, when they appear in public, but their jobs involve them appearing in public. Trump’s trip to Puerto Rico was also an entirely symbolic and deeply political action, one that cost the public more than if he’d stayed home, and a damned uneconomical delivery system for a roll of paper towels. But I don’t begrudge the fact that we have to pay to protect the POTUSes and VPOTUSes who’re making symbolic trips and appearances, even when I disagree with their choices about what symbolic trips and appearances they want to make. The fact that expense was associated with it doesn’t make the behavior any more reprehensible, in other words, even if that’s your take on the stunt. And Trump supporters, and no small number of others who support him on this particular issue, don’t think it’s reprehensible for Trump, through Pence, to be staging this counter-protest, so they’re certainly not going to begrudge the expense.

    I don’t mean to be flippant when I respond to that last part by saying that I don’t care what Trump supporters think. Of course they won’t bedrudge the expense. The issue is whether fair-minded people like you and me should.

    I’m thinking out loud here, so excuse a lack of rigor.

    I agree that the visit to Puerto Rico was entirely symbolic. I also agree that a certain amount of symbolism is central to the job. But I see a big difference between a symbolic visit to Puerto Rico, to show a fake kind of involvement in relief efforts, and a cynical pre-planned walkout-in-a-huff from a football game where some black athletes are mounting a symbolic protest that you knew would happen. And I get offended by the expense of the latter while I accept the expense of the former as part of the cost of the symbolism of the office.

    If you want to equate the two in some sense, I think you’re going to have to work a little harder to persuade me. I’m trying hard to read your comment as a persuasive argument in favor of spending the money on this culture war charade. So far, I’m not seeing it. But you could still persuade me.

    Patterico (115b1f)

  18. To a lot of people, Trump’s injection of himself into this turned showing respect for the flag into showing support for Trump. It’s not a matter of loving one’s country, it’s now (in their view) a matter of showing support for Trump because he’s demanding it. And the more he demands they do it, the less inclined they will be to do it. And if something is so sacrosanct that it must be respected, then it’s an idol that should be disrespected.

    If Trump really wanted people to reject the kneeling, he’d shut his mouth.

    I agree entirely. And of course you and I both know that Trump doesn’t give two shits about the kneeling. It’s all about a cynical and incredibly obvious strategy to manipulate the rubes into screaming on behalf of one side of a culture war. Nothing more and nothing less. He does not care about the issue at all. As always, he cares about how it benefits him: Donald J. Trump. The. End.

    Patterico (115b1f)

  19. There’s a war going on here folks and you’re either for the people who stand for the anthem or kneel for it.

    I’m for the people who stand for the anthem, unless those people are cynical punks like Donald Trump or Mike Pence.

    Patterico (115b1f)

  20. We have elections for a reason and win or loose you’re still expected to love your country and respect it. If they can’t do that they shouldn’t be here. What, because Trump won and they hate Trump it is a legitimate reason to disrespect the nation? That’s childish and absurd. Did we conservatives kneel because Obummer won? Obummer won an election but we still loved our country. This is all racial bull crap invented by Black Lies Matter and this is tearing us apart. These pigs are not being paid to protest they’re being paid to play ball. If they won’t do that they shouldn’t get paid at all.

    This entire phenomenon is very interesting in the way that it reveals a Giant Cultural Gap between football fans and football players.

    I don’t love this country because I am “expected” to. I love this country because it stands for certain principles that Donald Trump doesn’t give a crap about. I also recognize the many deficiencies of this country — and I will criticize those shortcomings, and the shortcomings of its leaders, whether ultra-patriots like it or (as it more likely) not.

    Patterico (115b1f)

  21. Thank you, sir, for the kind words. Re this:

    But I see a big difference between a symbolic visit to Puerto Rico, to show a fake kind of involvement in relief efforts, and a cynical pre-planned walkout-in-a-huff from a football game where some black athletes are mounting a symbolic protest that you knew would happen.

    I do too. I approve of one, and not the other. But I disapprove of many other things Trump says and does, many other trips he takes, much of the other symbolism that he engages in. And those all involve protection expenses, just like the symbolic events I do approve of. Likewise, he earns a presidential salary on days he’s relatively presidential and on days he’s a buffoon; the ratio between those bothers the hell out of me, but not because of the waste of his salary on the days he’s a buffoon, it’s because he’s a buffoon. I’m very mildly torqued that the taxpayer isn’t getting his money’s worth on that salary, but on the list of things about Trump that torque me, that’s not in the top 500. The complaint about expense just seems to me to be a distraction, small potatoes, that doesn’t really help anyone’s argument about whether the symbolic gesture is inappropriate. Let that argument stand or fall, succeed or fail, on its own without grasping for relatively minor details (the differential between Pence’s protection costs on his original schedule and on this stadium visit).

    I’m certainly not trying to persuade you that it’s a good idea to spend money on this culture war charade, but in comparison to, say, healthcare or tax cuts, which really are about money — measured in billions — this discussion really isn’t a fiscal discussion, it’s a values discussion. That’s all.

    Beldar (fa637a)

  22. I suppose you could say this was all done courtesy of the NFL. Pence–and others who talked about doing this–knew the chances the players wouldn’t hand Pence the great big prize were zero. It was as predictable as the sun rising. And the players did exactly what he–presumably–wanted them to do.
    In various martial arts you can simply…not be there when the opponent makes a move. You have to be able to predict it and it helps to be standing just in front of a brick wall.
    The NFL knew what Pence expected them to do, they knew it would make them look worse and get even more bad PR. If they’d refrained, Pence would have looked like an idiot, taking most of weekend–travel, security, and so forth–to see a football game. For nothing.

    Richard Aubrey (0d7df4)

  23. people forget sometimes how wonderful and pease porridge hot President Trump is

    he’s a true American and for that he has my love and respect

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  24. Patterico, would you have begrudged the protection costs if Pence had stayed for the game?

    Beldar (fa637a)

  25. Like Corker in the other thread, the relative personal strengths or weaknesses of the proponent are not necessarily a reflection of the merits of his message. Trump always gets my back up, reflexively, but there are some things I concede he’s right on. This is one of them. Pence does not get my back up. I generally respect him, and I don’t consider him a toady. So on this question, the ad hominem and the ad rem mesh for me, and I pretty much agree with Beldar.

    nk (dbc370)

  26. Patterico and Beldar,

    I’ve had much the same discussion at The Jury. The difference is I had it with myself.

    DRJ (15874d)

  27. Actually I think the kneeling matters to him because of its real focus, the police.

    Last Monday, when he read his initial statement about Las Vegas, in saying he would be going to Las Vegas, he listed the people he wanted to meet: law enforcement officers, first responders, and families of the victims (and surviving victims). In that order. As if he felt the police should get first priority, and the actual victims only rated third. I found that a curious way of looking at things.

    kishnevi (8ce7fb)

  28. I’m certainly not trying to persuade you that it’s a good idea to spend money on this culture war charade, but in comparison to, say, healthcare or tax cuts, which really are about money — measured in billions — this discussion really isn’t a fiscal discussion, it’s a values discussion. That’s all.

    I understand your argument better: in the grand scheme of the federal budget, this is a very small expense, and the more relevant discussion is whether it was a good idea to begin with.

    But when someone is involved in nothing more than a cheap (in the derogatory and not the literal sense of the word) stunt that is entirely partisan in nature, and has no redeeming value whatsoever except insofar as it helps fuel a screaming war among partisan idiots . . . . the extra expense just galls me. You can call it irrational if you like. But it just does.

    Patterico (115b1f)

  29. how much did Mr. Pence’s security cost exactly? We got a number on that?

    harvardtrash ted’s feckless government shutdown in 2013 cost the failmerican economy $24 billion according to S&P

    is that kinda the same as the Pence football game security? Less? More?

    just looking for a little context here

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  30. We should be protesting football because

    Inequality of outcomes.

    Pinandpuller (16b0b5)

  31. Patterico and Beldar,

    I’ve had much the same discussion at The Jury. The difference is I had it with myself.

    Ha. Well, since I see your internal discussion, let me join you there and make it a discussion between at least two people.

    Patterico (115b1f)

  32. 22. The former governor of Indiana attending a game to honor one of the best players to play for an Indiana team would be perfectly natural and appropriate.

    Instead Pence, in response to a childish stunt, pulled his own childish stunt.

    kishnevi (8ce7fb)

  33. This NFL crap is gold for our Captain.

    He’s had a rough week; the limelight has been stolen by Mother Nature, towels tosses and Vegas losses. A ‘stay-tuned’ tease, a few provocative tweets, a ‘Stature of Liberty’ play by the Veep and voila: “it’s all about me again,” eh, Captain?!

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  34. Obama went to meetings all over the country to tell people they should support Obamacare because if they liked their plans and doctors, they could keep them. That was a series of symbolic appearances designed to perpetrate a gigantic, multi-trillion dollar fraud on the American public, and I have enormous fault to find with Obama for that. That he was on Air Force One for each of those flights doesn’t materially add to my annoyance with him, though. Otherwise I’d need to add the “and he wasted government money while doing this!” to every single one of my objections about Obama. My list of objections is long and strong enough on its own, it doesn’t need that tiny marginal extra support.

    Beldar (fa637a)

  35. ^Stature=Statue

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  36. It’s been awhile…
    Isn’t most everything the VP does “political,” to the extent of it possibly be called a stunt, anyway?
    So, of the President tells him to do this, in his home state, and he agrees, why is that a problem?
    And, thanks Beldar and Patrick for your great points…

    reff (654c04)

  37. You cannot go to a White Castle in Indy unless you have a slight Midwest accent.

    I’m not joking.

    Pinandpuller (16b0b5)

  38. Um, this wasn’t any ordinary game. Peyton Manning was being honored with a statue. If Pence picked a different game, he would have missed the ceremonies. He gave the Niners the benefit of the doubt and they let him down.

    ken (28344a)

  39. reff! Nice to see you!

    Patterico (115b1f)

  40. What bothers me most about the NFL is that there are no women players or coaches, even though half the population of the United States is female. (No, it’s not a rickroll.)

    nk (dbc370)

  41. Also: I wouldn’t say the fiscal objection is “irrational” at all. It’s entirely rational, but still it’s a footnote at best on more consequential arguments about this general subject — arguments which you’ve made well here and elsewhere.

    Beldar (fa637a)

  42. Its a bluff, as we found out two weeks ago

    http://www.star-telegram.com/sports/nfl/dallas-cowboys/article177788616.html

    narciso (d1f714)

  43. Actually, kishnevi, the part about Peyton Manning cuts the other way for me. If he really cared about his State and its citizens, why would Pence deliberately try to upstage Peyton Manning’s night with his own protest (and that is clearly what this is)?

    DRJ (15874d)

  44. Both parties use wedge issues. This one works more to the benefit of the right in the purple states.

    AZ Bob (f60c80)

  45. Has anyone ever been to San Francisco?

    AZ Bob (f60c80)

  46. “I don’t care what Trump supporters think. Of course they won’t bedrudge the expense. The issue is whether fair-minded people like you and me should.”

    =>

    “Trump supporters are not fair-minded people.”

    None of us? Not one? Not even happyfeet? Not even one of his feet, or a toe on one of them?

    Fred Z (05d938)

  47. happyfeet, are you perhaps a reincarnation of the long lamented Manolo, the shoe blogger? Your phrasing has many similarities wit his. https://pjmedia.com/eddriscoll/2015/5/2/legendary-shoe-blogger-reveals-secret-identity/

    Fred Z (05d938)

  48. President Trump’s our deliverance can you even imagine

    eight years of food stamp followed by four of an evil diseased stinkypig

    12 years of despotism and rot

    it’s as biblical an end times plague as any we’re like to ever know

    and the wonder of it is it never happened

    we stood on that twilight precipice and the darkness reached for us

    to snatch and rend and torment

    but in President Trump our deliverance was made manifest

    and the evil dark quailed and to the shadows has retreated

    our blessings are tremendous indeed

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  49. It is well known that the president chose to insert himself into the NFL’s take-a-knee kerfuffle. Given that it originally was a form of protest, if President Trump had truly been concerned about what was happening, and why, then it seems he would’ve taken a more positive step in helping solve the problem. Not an overtly political one that plays to his base. He could have invited a few of the more informed leaders of said protest to the White House for a round-table to discuss concerns, and head off the start of a movement. And even if it met with little success, it would at least symbolize that this White House cares about injustices (whether real and/or perceived). But given that the president is a sore loser (and ungracious winner) and tends keeps score of wrongs done, I believe that his involvement is little more than him trying to even the score. The fact that he knows precisely how to reach his base and tap into everyday American’s ire toward select groups, he cleverly transformed the meaning behind the protest into one about patriotism and disrespecting the flag, the country, and even our vets and first responders. And if it works to simultaneously stick it to the NFL and increase support for him, then it’s a win-win.

    Dana (023079)

  50. “I note the change in attitude because I consider McCarthy both very smart, and also someone who is reluctant to leap anti-Trump conclusions out of animus towards the President.”

    McCarthy sounds like an excellent role model, one worthy of emulating.

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  51. Deliverance! Yeah, the folks from Deliverance is what’s got him elected.

    nk (dbc370)

  52. So the guy is actually engaging in a stunt, that detracts from an honor being given, complains when someone takes offense, how many moons in the sky here.

    narciso (d1f714)

  53. “President Hillary would gladly get on her knees with the boys.”

    mg (31009b) — 10/8/2017 @ 7:40 pm

    I’m not so sure about that, mg…

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  54. If you can’t handle the program, change the channel.

    Well played, Captain. So well, they don’t even realize it.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  55. Dana believes “[Trump’s] involvement [with the NFL take-a-knee imbroglio]is little more than him trying to even the score.”

    As far as I can see, she also believes that this makes him an a**hole, and that anyone who thinks that Trump may be engaged in a legitimate propaganda/persuasion ploy is also an a**hole.

    Which is why this has become sort of a Leninist blog. Here, Trump is Trotsky and needs an ice-pick in his head after he is chased over his wall into Mexico.

    Stalinist too, as in air-brushing non-conformist commenters like happyfeet away. happyfeet, you are not in this photo, and never were. You sir, do not exist.

    Fred Z (05d938)

  56. Great now I have dial the neuralizer to eleventy.

    narciso (d1f714)

  57. That is overbroad, some of this relentless harping, does have a two minute hate feel.

    Pikachu doesn’t believe in anything except possibly exotic recipes

    narciso (d1f714)

  58. and yet he persisted Mr. Z!

    and in this i look to President Trump as my rector and guide

    he’s gotten us this far and he’ll see it through to the end

    and I’m a try to live up to his example

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  59. Odd tapper and cilizza and reid are on the same wavelength, what did we call that about seven years ago?

    narciso (d1f714)

  60. I would never have guessed that was who he was?

    narciso (d1f714)

  61. 49er says this is an example of systemic oppression. I say he can blow it out his greasy backside.

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  62. It’s called , for those with a copy of the home game.

    narciso (d1f714)

  63. Trump’s involvement in this is a lot like being on the same side as Stalin in WWII, so that much of Fred Z’s comment @56 makes sense.

    nk (dbc370)

  64. No, because Stalin in many ways enabled Hitler or at least the teichwehr, partitioning Poland, the NFL has been politicking since at least 2014.

    narciso (d1f714)

  65. I could have phrased that better. To explain: I have nothing but contempt for the National Felons League but Trump is not a guy I’d pick to be in the same foxhole with.

    nk (dbc370)

  66. I disagree. While I would have preferred Trump to STFU and let Pence do his own thing, I despair of Trump S-ingTFU.

    But the protest needed to be made. You have to show up to turn your back. For people who make more in a year than anyone here will make in their lifetime to spit on the flag of the ONLY country in the world where that is possible is beyond the pale. And it should be pointed out.

    Kevin M (752a26)

  67. I have a challenge for all these NFL players: Give 90% of their wealth (not income, wealth) to the people who they pretend to protest for.

    Kevin M (752a26)

  68. The NFL, both players and management, is in the position of being against the national anthem and progressives have fallen all over themselves to support or defend it.

    Wouldn’t Republicans be galactically stupid not to take the other side on that? Wouldn’t being above the fray on the national anthem be the worst possible response?

    Frederick (63491b)

  69. And reff is right that any time the Vice-President leaves his house, unless it is so the President doesn’t have to leave HIS house, is an utter waste of taxpayer money.

    I remember being stuck in traffic for 30 minutes because the roads were blocked for VP Dan Quayle. Does it matter where he was going?

    Kevin M (752a26)

  70. #50

    “He could have invited a few of the more informed leaders of said protest to the White House for a round-table to discuss concerns, and head off the start of a movement.”

    I’d pay good money to be at that meeting……the NFLPA (player’s union) has donated thousands of dollars to the Center for Community Change Action, a group active in the anti-Trump resistance and bankrolled by a host of liberal foundations, including top Democratic donor George Soros’s Foundation for Open Society.

    Lenny (5ea732)

  71. I’d like to see Katt Williams throw 20k in cash off the top deck during the Anthemc.

    Pinandpuller (14e91a)

  72. Do ANTIFA and BLM know it’s a statue of Peyton Manning? That could be a problem.

    Pinandpuller (14e91a)

  73. @64 nk

    As Rayllan Givens put it it’s, “sh*tkicker on sh*tkicker crime.”

    Pinandpuller (14e91a)

  74. Pinandpuller
    Can Eric Prince beat the hell out of Barrasso in a run for the senate in Wyoming?

    mg (31009b)

  75. Thank you, Patrick, for noticing….I’m actually here nearly every day…pretty close actually….and thanks to Dana, et. al., for the greatCommentary…
    Beldar in #34 hits my point much better than I….thanks Beldar….and no, Kevin M, it’s not always a waste, but it is almost always political…
    While the POTUS is an overbearing loudmouth, he is the opposite of GWB44, which is important for one thing: he will defend the points and actions he takes, whereas B44 (BINGO….no…wait…) would not, to his eternal detriment, and to most Conservatives eternal respect. PresTrump will fight for his points, as he clearly has his stamp on this one, and that is not always the wrong answer.
    As for the protest itself, I guess if I’m going to comment, I should have an opinion, so here goes. The Anthem, and the Flag, represent the NATION, which is also the representation of the Constitution. That incredible document is the reason thato one can protest. So, yes, they are protesting the wrong thing. And, no, they don’t see that. While they say they are not protesting those things, and are protesting social justice in some form, the when, and the where, just doesn’t fit the why.

    reff (72bf44)

  76. And, Patrick, I am sorry you have left the Republican Party, or, should I say, it has left you. Hard, very hard, to be a Conservative today and still support some of the Party….I go back to WFB….have to find the most “electable” one….

    reff (72bf44)

  77. Such was my first reaction but upon reading the full context, that he was there to honor Peyton Manning, a point others have raised yet you failed to address even in the comments, I realized it wasn’t that big of a deal. But h8rs gotta h8. The rabid, knee jerk reactions to whatever this administration does, the banning of Trump or Trump-leaning commenters for the slightest impropriety whilst simultaneously tolerating the nastiest comments from the leftists here, doesn’t reflect well on either yourself nor the credibility of your position.

    CFarleigh (a06bdc)

  78. “We have a few things in the Chutz-pocrisy Dept. First, after VP Pence and his wife walked out on the Colts-Niners game the moment players were spotted kneeling for the anthem, Adam “pencil neck” Schiff and Brian “ovoid thumb” Stetler decried it as a stunt.”

    — JJ Sefton

    Colonel Haiku (7680d5)

  79. Birds of a feather and all that…

    Colonel Haiku (7680d5)

  80. I despise most of Trump’s cabinet, but truly enjoy him tweeting against establishment hacks like corker.

    mg (31009b)

  81. Bonus laughter comes when the establishment rino class circles the wagons with chuck and nancy.

    mg (31009b)

  82. Happy Civilization Day, everybody.

    nk (dbc370)

  83. It’s teh Indigenous Peoples Day, get with teh Program!

    Colonel Haiku (7680d5)

  84. “IT’S COME TO THIS: Kiss pauses Louisiana concert to lead crowd in Pledge of Allegiance.

    Oh, to go back in time and tell my ten year old self that in the 21st century, a Kiss concert would be more patriotic than the NFL…”

    https://pjmedia.com/instapundit/277807/

    Colonel Haiku (7680d5)

  85. The TDS Crew will continue in their attempts to extend teh crazy beyond their cocoons…

    Colonel Haiku (7680d5)

  86. Simmons get it, Col.

    mg (31009b)

  87. I voted for Trump, and expect to do so again. And i agree in the macro with his position on the NFL and the disrespect for our flag and anthem.

    But wish he would spend his time and political capital on things that matter; immigration, trade deals, debt and spending, ending these pointless endless wars. The President of the United States of America should spend a sentence or 2 tops on this. We had 8 years of the Prom King of the Left, can we now have a grownup? Bad enough we have GOPe looking to sell us out at the first opportunity, we need a president who thinks it through.

    Bugg (08921e)

  88. Speaker of the House Simmons!!!

    mg (31009b)

  89. seems like hateful Mayor Trigglypuff and her tacky-assed form-fitting t-shirts must have polled like a flaming bag of turds cause both her and the puerto rican katrina narrative are gone daddy gone

    even the reuters propaganda sluts are reporting the dysfunction’s all local

    “If there is a place, a locality that is not delivering food to the people of Puerto Rico that need it, there’s going to be some hell to pay,” Rossello said.

    He said the government was trying to identify problems in the distribution pipeline, looking to ensure that local leaders deliver resources to the Puerto Rican people as soon as they arrives in the municipality.

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  90. yes yes yes i too salute the bravery of the intrepid Mr. Columbus

    he sailed a wee lil boat all the way to the new whirl without falling off!

    but nevertrump says his trip was just an expensive stunt :(

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  91. Imagine how stupid Pence (more Trump due to the scheduled nature of his tweet) would have looked if word got out to the 49er locker room in pregame and they actually decided to stand.

    urbanleftbehind (847a06)

  92. but nevertrump says his trip was just an expensive stunt

    Well, to some degree you gotta admit it was a bit of a scam. When he left he didn’t know where he was going, when get got there he didn’t know where he was, and when he got back he didn’t know where he had been. And he did it all with someone else’s dough. And he did spend some time in the pokey, IIRC. But all in all, good times.

    CFarleigh (a06bdc)

  93. tweets are ephemeral Mr. urban another tweet what congratulated the filthy nfl pedophiles on their new-found patriotism would’ve been the feel-good story of the day

    and all the CNN Jake Tapper fake news propaganda sluts would’ve had sour ass-face all week

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  94. So what exactly were Pence’s options?

    a) Go and leave if players protest explaining why he left as he did
    b) Go, stay and say nothing
    c) Go, stay and explain why he stayed
    d) Don’t go and say nothing
    e) Don’t go and explain why he didn’t go
    f) Turn down the offer to be Trump’s running mate

    Seems like there was going to be ample criticism no matter what he did.

    crazy (d99a88)

  95. Let’s not forget any of the “stay and let it ride options” resuscitate the now largely dormant Pence-Ryan or Pence-martin’s coup rumirs.

    urbanleftbehind (847a06)

  96. *Pence-Mattis

    urbanleftbehind (847a06)

  97. Imagine how stupid Pence (more Trump due to the scheduled nature of his tweet) would have looked if word got out to the 49er locker room in pregame and they actually decided to stand.

    Why would he/they look stupid? His stated purpose for going was to pay tribute to Manning. If they players had not kneeled, he would have stayed for the game. It could very well have been a healing moment for the NFL and to some extent the country. The NFL, or more specifically the 9ers, let that opportunity slip by. But of course, leopards, spots and all that jazz.

    CFarleigh (a06bdc)

  98. yes yes Mr. Farleigh he did the nina and the santa maria and the pinto bean all up in it

    and we’re the heirs of his thirst for adventure and his mindfulness of new romance

    today is a day of celebrate!

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  99. Agree CFarleigh. One could add the three dolphins players that stayed in the tunnel during our National Anthem.

    mg (31009b)

  100. But I’m sure they had a good reason:

    https://mobile.twitter.com/alimhaider/status/917234821746831361?p=v

    He took Russian at Boston u perhaps

    narciso (d1f714)

  101. These are the rocket surgeons on congressional staff:
    https://mobile.twitter.com/David_J_Bier/status/917227571082907648

    narciso (d1f714)

  102. the banning of Trump or Trump-leaning commenters for the slightest impropriety

    Are you in some mind-altering substance? I hardly ban anyone. What I do with people who whine about my criticism of Trump is personally mute them. Which I am now doing with you. But ban? Um no.

    Patterico (03f629)

  103. this was a one and done gesture I think, but also I think this gesture will be visibly emulated by at least a few season ticket holders

    it was like throwing a rock in a pond, so it was probably communications-wise an incredibly savvy and efficient message buy

    in terms of messaging and shaping the narrative they completely killed it on that budget

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  104. Today is a day to protest the left’s attempted cultural appropriation of Columbus Day by flying the flag.

    crazy (d99a88)

  105. Are the people who stayed and watched the game less patriotic than Mike Pence?

    Patterico (115b1f)

  106. everyone’s less patriotic than Mike Pence

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  107. The guy who just won the Nobel Prize for economics would probably explain it as the “sunk cost” fallacy. Pence’s cost was negligible, their tickets, etc. substantial.

    nk (dbc370)

  108. Pence’s cost *to him*

    nk (dbc370)

  109. Beldar, another way of making my point about the expense is this:

    I keep hearing people respond that, hey, the football players are putting on a show. So why can’t Pence do the same?

    And I keep coming back to: I would be totally fine with that — if he weren’t spending taxpayer dollars to do it.

    That, to me, is the difference between his stunt and the players’ stunt.

    One could respond that there is another difference: their intent is to disrespect the country and his was not. But I don’t think that’s their intent. Their intent is to raise awareness of an issue that football fans tend not to care about. They could say Pence is disrespecting their concern over police treatment of black people just like he can say they are disrespecting the country. I think they should all shut up and do their jobs but that’s because I am the type of person who gets annoyed by protests (but thinks it’s critical that people have the freedom to do it whether I am annoyed or not).

    Patterico (115b1f)

  110. That’s the point, isn’t it? Trump wants people to start walking out of games in order to pressure the NFL. He doesn’t care about the protests. He cares about hurting the NFL.

    DRJ (15874d)

  111. Pence’s cost *to him*

    Right. To *him*.

    Patterico (115b1f)

  112. Hat tip teh Grateful Dead…

    Truckin’ Trumpin’

    Trumpin’ got my chips cashed in… keep Trumpin’, like the do-dah man
    And Mike Pence, more or less in line, just keep Trumpin’ on.

    Arrows of neon and flashing white grills out on K Street.
    Chicago, New York, Detroit and it’s all on the same street.
    Congressional Critters involved in a typical meet greet
    Hang it up and see what tomorrow brings.

    Dallas, got a red machine; Houston, too close to New Orleans,
    New York’s got teh de Blasi he just won’t let you be, oh no.

    Most of the heads that you see on TV talk regime change
    Most of the time they’re spittin’ and lyin’ at you
    One of these days they gonna get all that’s comin’
    A place so hot, and I tell ya, it ain’t got a view

    Trumpin’, like the feckless Prez… once told me “Now I can tell you this”
    “Sometimes, ya gotta deal with clowns, all you gonna find in this tow-ow-own”

    Sometimes some light is found at this site
    Other times gotta steel for a fight
    Lately it occurs to me what a long, strange trip it’s been.

    Colonel Haiku (7680d5)

  113. That’s the point, isn’t it? Trump wants people to start walking out of games in order to pressure the NFL. He doesn’t care about the protests. He cares about hurting the NFL.

    And now people who just want to watch football are unpatriotic if they actually go ahead and do it.

    Patterico (115b1f)

  114. Now that Trump is President, I guess it makes sense to say we want our elected officials to put on shows. The Best Shows.

    We should change the oath of office.

    DRJ (15874d)

  115. It should be best in show, given all teh mutts involved…

    Colonel Haiku (7680d5)

  116. PrincetonAI sent me a thoughtful email and I am unmuting him in my comment script.

    Patterico (115b1f)

  117. One question: Had this whole issue not come up now, would Pence have attended that game?

    Sammy Finkelman (9f1a19)

  118. As for the protest itself, I guess if I’m going to comment, I should have an opinion, so here goes. The Anthem, and the Flag, represent the NATION, which is also the representation of the Constitution. That incredible document is the reason thato one can protest. So, yes, they are protesting the wrong thing. And, no, they don’t see that. While they say they are not protesting those things, and are protesting social justice in some form, the when, and the where, just doesn’t fit the why.

    I agree with all of that.

    Patterico (115b1f)

  119. oh my goodness this is not about “hurting the nfl”

    the politicization of previously unpolitical cultural space is a deeply totalitarian phenomenon

    we see this throughout history in all kinds of societies – it’s a HUGE red flag

    President Trump and Vice President Pence, they’ve engaged in this skirmish on the side of freedom

    something a prissy pervert like Mitt Romney would never have done

    something a slimy coward like John McCain *could* never have done

    they would’ve said nothing done nothing and allowed evil to triumph

    But not team trump no sir cracker jack applejack

    they see clearly what it is that these filthy NFL pedophiles are doing

    and the parents at those games where half-witted young kids from 3rd to 12th grade are mindlessly taking a knee, they see it too

    President Trump and Mr. Vice President Pence have offered a powerful frame what disrupts that offered by these mindless kaepertwatters:

    condone or do not condone

    this is the conversation kaepertwatting sparks now

    it’s certainly not a consciousness-raising exercise (it never was)

    but a simple question

    should a football game be an anti-american hyper-political event or not

    and they achieved this mighty blow against nfl pedophile totalitarianism by spending very very very little monies

    President Trump and Mr. Vice President Pence

    they are the champions my friend

    and they’ll keep on fighting to the end

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  120. Are the people who stayed and watched the game less patriotic than Mike Pence?

    I asked that question on Twitter and the Super-Patriotic Types are responding “Yes.”

    Pretty soon this is going to be a test of your loyalty. If you watch a football game you fail the test.

    To hell with that.

    Patterico (115b1f)

  121. One time I did throw a Wendy’s burger and French fries into the garbage because the lady who wrapped it was the same one who took my money, and she did not wash her hands or put on those plastic gloves before handling the food. But it was only $5 or something. Can you get into a football stadium for under $200.00 these days?

    nk (dbc370)

  122. I’m glad no one blames Pence…poor mannikin.

    Ben burn (b3d5ab)

  123. I’m glad no one blames Pence…poor mannikin.

    Ben burn (b3d5ab)

  124. “. So, yes, they are protesting the wrong thing.”

    To me it’s like a prayer. When one prays it is a petition to a higher power. I don’t see that ad misplaced.

    Ben burn (b3d5ab)

  125. There’s a team owned by the Texas Hunt family, didn’t they get mad about something and have something done about it going on 54 years ago?

    urbanleftbehind (847a06)

  126. Sports Illustrated:

    There was absolutely no chance that this game would go off with 45 Colts standing on their side of the field and 45 members of the Niners standing on their side of the field. For at least the previous 26 games that the 49ers played, first with Colin Kaepernick sitting and then kneeling, and this year with safety Eric Reid leading players in some form of demonstration, the team did something during the anthem. Last week in Arizona, about 30 players kneeled.

    Calculated and cynical.

    Patterico (115b1f)

  127. If the protest is not about disrespecting America then the protestors are doing it wrong.

    crazy (d99a88)

  128. The protesters don’t feel like this country exists for their benefit. They think it exists for the benefit of others who have more money and influence.

    Isn’t that something many Trump supporters can identify with? I understand they don’t like how the protesters target the flag/anthem but don’t they basically agree with the sentiment?

    DRJ (15874d)

  129. Trump’s entire strategy is to embroil himself in idiotic culture war battles to distract the marks from his failure to accomplish anything real.

    Patterico (115b1f)

  130. brilliant and empowering

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  131. The protesters don’t feel like this country exists for their benefit. They think it exists for the benefit of others who have more money and influence.

    Aren’t most of these protestors on the football fields far wealthier than you or I?

    Patterico (115b1f)

  132. The SI piece removes all doubt as to Oences absence of character.

    Ben burn (b3d5ab)

  133. Obviously the players themselves have money and take but many black players feel like they are considered second-class outside of football. And they all have extended families and friends who probably don’t have celebrity or money. I wish they would choose another way to protest but this works far better than other things they could do.

    DRJ (15874d)

  134. Hopefully people will quit going to NBA games as well.

    mg (31009b)

  135. Money and fame.

    DRJ (15874d)

  136. Who is more like Huey Long?

    Trump or kneelers?

    Ben burn (b3d5ab)

  137. I blame Gandhi.

    DRJ (15874d)


  138. The protesters don’t feel like this country exists for their benefit. They think it exists for the benefit of others who have more money and influence.

    Aren’t most of these protestors on the football fields far wealthier than you or I?

    Yes, I view it more as them acting white limousine liberal.

    nk (dbc370)

  139. Becasi what is Ryan and Mcdonnell’s excyde, the double down on failure theater.

    narciso (d1f714)

  140. Ghandi was very calculating..

    Ben burn (b3d5ab)

  141. I’ve been a football fan for over 50 years, both college and NFL, I love the game, always have, in high school my intramural team (7 man) won the league and then beat the all-stars.

    I remember the 1st Superbowl, and before that the NFL Championships. During the season I organize my weekends around the games on TV and I pay extra for NFL Ticket for access to the games I want to watch.

    I love football, but I love my country more, and now I turn off my TV and walk away at the first hint of disrespect for the national anthem. And, that includes any chickensh*t TV attempts to conceal player protests: give the issue short-shrift and I’m gone.

    So, now it’s come to this, I’m separated, and the divorce is being finalized. I will not tolerate the sight of these ungrateful pampered players using their positions to disrespect the nation that gave them the opportunity to become millionaires, famous and respected, now revealed as self-absorbed pariahs, unworthy of notice and devoid of significance.

    PS: Strangely, there was no disconcerting sense of loss, no painful withdrawals, only the uplifting feeling of freedom from an unhealthy and unexamined addiction. I’m free at last.

    ropelight (d782cb)

  142. When Obama adopted the drug addled punk Trayvon to kick off the Obamason Thugs on Drugs movement, he imposed rather burdensome expenses across the country. The expense imposed by Pence by joining Trump in this tag-team pig wrestling match is rather negligible in comparison. I wouldn’t buy a ticket to watch pig wrestling but it is mildly more entertaining than the Bush rope a dope.

    Rick Ballard (ada478)

  143. 133… those who think nothing is being accomplished in the background may wish to ponder who the real “mark” is.

    Colonel Haiku (7680d5)

  144. 138, that well ran dry years ago, just check any NBA Eastern Conference (particularly Wizards or Hawks) arena crowd shot or any town with hockey as counter programming.

    urbanleftbehind (847a06)

  145. I think many of the players believe they have been discriminated against, but they were the lucky or talented ones who prevailed. There could also be an element of black guilt. They have fame and money while most of their extended families and childhood neighbors don’t. Maybe this is a way to reconnect with groups they no longer are a part of.

    DRJ (15874d)

  146. The brutish colonial authorities were very patient, as turtledove punted out, against the Germans it would be over quickly,

    narciso (d1f714)

  147. That’s Noblesse Oblige DRY.

    We need more of that quality.

    Ben burn (b3d5ab)

  148. 145-Ropelight
    Cheers

    mg (31009b)

  149. DRJ…

    Ben burn (b3d5ab)

  150. Nobody wants NFL football players to take a knee more than Donald Trump.

    Patterico (115b1f)

  151. I don’t really care about any of this. I have not watched football regularly since I was a child. I was once a huge Dallas Cowboys fan, and still enjoy watching the games with my brother and brothers-in-law during family get-togethers. But otherwise, meh.

    Patterico (115b1f)

  152. there’s no difference between doing filthy fascist pedophile politics all up in a sleazy nfl football game and doing the same thing all up in a church service or a graduation ceremony or a funeral

    we are all westboro baptists now?

    oh hells to the no says Vice President Pence

    not on my watch says President Trump

    of this we shall be free

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  153. Great wildfire post. Love rapid-fire comments.

    Ben burn (b3d5ab)

  154. Trump is still on the honeymoon period of his Presidency, I hope you all realize. No, no, no, don’t tell me about the media and The Left — you don’t go on your honeymoon with the girls who turned you down. Let’s see how long the GOPe who thought he would bend to their purposes, those who thought he would be their rector [I’m still not sure about that spelling, happyfeet], and those who just thought he was better than Hillary, will continue to cut him slack.

    nk (dbc370)

  155. tomorrow is another day Mr. nk

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  156. DRJ, a lot of this is the players trying to avoid being labeled as kuhns (phonetic).

    urbanleftbehind (847a06)

  157. Sunday Night Football down 3% from last sunday night.

    mg (31009b)

  158. They can help their friends and neighbors, Ben burn, through their personal wealth, charities and foundations. Real help, not PR stunts.

    Instead, IMO these protests aren’t designed to help black people, they are designed to make massive institutional changes in how our law enforcement works. It’s a way to stop enforcement of criminal laws that target blacks, even if the enforcement is justified and actually helps black communities. It’s a discussion we need to have but won’t as long as this is about NFL protest stunts on both sides.

    DRJ (15874d)

  159. NT-dom has to crap or get off the pot. That would be an instant majority should they jostle their way toward serving over hell.

    urbanleftbehind (847a06)

  160. nk, Corker and his rino klan will never get anything accomplished to MAGA.

    mg (31009b)

  161. 91

    He said the government was trying to identify problems in the distribution pipeline, looking to ensure that local leaders deliver resources to the Puerto Rican people as soon as they arrives in the municipality.

    Many of the municipalities may not just be equipped to do so – but of course in that case they should rely on private organizations. Anybody. Not just dump supplies at city hall or wherever. (the municipalities are actually more like counties) They don’t have phone service.

    But finally there’s mail delivery, so now they can use snail mail:

    https://www.nytimes.com/reuters/2017/10/09/us/09reuters-usa-puertorico-mail.html

    Do you know what else didn’t happen in Puerto Rico?

    The (bankrupt) electric utility didn’t ask for help!!

    Everywhere else in the United States when power lines get knocked down, they ask electric utilties all across the United States to send workers and help. This didn’t happen in Puerto Rico, and even when utilities called on their own, they told them they didn’t want any help.

    https://www.eenews.net/stories/1060062975

    The American Public Power Association, based in Washington, confirmed today that the troubled Puerto Rico public utility that serves more than 3 million people on the island has decided not to request assistance from the group of 1,100 U.S. electricity companies standing ready to help.

    Maybe it was only private utilities they were rejecting help from. They were getting a little bit from the New York Power Authority. I think some people in Puerto Rico are inclined to socialism, and they don’t want to violate their principles, or something. The something maybe being to help the union that helps them. Or make private power look better than public power. They could lose their sinecures. I mean especially the people running the electric utility.

    Only over the weekend did they finally start to get help from other (non-government) utilities.

    Meanwhile they were counting on help from their bondholders:

    https://www.nytimes.com/2017/09/27/business/puerto-rico-hurricane-bondholders.html

    They’re up to 15% electric service restored now.

    And now Puerto Rico’s governor Ricardo Rossello said that he will speak to Elon Musk after he said his solar power systems could be used to restore electricity on the island. So maybe maybe they ar actually starting to get organized.

    I also think that maybe the politicians in Puerto Rico – some of them anyway – wanted to make sure that all help comes through them. And they hid the job action.

    Snopes has that as false. It’s mostly true.

    The only thing is:

    1. It was a wildcat strike, but the kind of wildcat strike where the union leader engages in double talk, and doesn’t want to endorse it, or even acknowledge it, but he does attempt to use it to negotiate. And he doesn’t come out against it.

    . Maybe he’s for it, maybe he’s not, 2. The Teamsters Union was not involved. It’s not the main truck driver’s union in Puerto Rico.

    3. The International Brotherhood of Teamseters was actually getting ready to help break that strike by collecting name of drivers to go to Puerto Rico.

    Maybe some of the truck drivers are still not working. (and some of them have legitimate reasons – like they have to stand on line all day to buy gasoline or to get some food, or their wives do, and the roads aren’t cleared and if some roads are cleared a mudslide comes along and blocks it again.)

    The Governor of Puerto Rico also made things very bad for a few days by imposing acurfew and not exempting truck drivers delivering fuelfrom it. (they were not government employees)

    A lot of people are trying to get off the island. Maybe it’s less than 2% or 3%

    Oh you know what else in Puerto Rico? It could cause a problem in a few months for the rest of the United States. Years ago (they’ve since I think been repealed) there were tax incentives for establishing manufacturing plants in Puerto Rico. Most of the companies that took advantage of that were pharmaceutical companies – maybe because it’s important for those drugs to be manufactured inside the United States, rather than imported, but the incentives weren’t great enough to cause otehr kinds of manufacturing to be located in Puerto Rico.

    So now 10% of all employment in Puerto Rico is connected with that. And that means also that there’s a certain semi-random assortment of drugs taht are made there.

    Now all these plants apparently have generators, but there’s a problem with a getting a steady supply of fuel. So if this doesn’t get straightened out, we face the possibility of there being shortages of various prescription medicines in a few months.

    Sammy Finkelman (9f1a19)

  162. Yrs he’ll never bear Hillary now, now about his modest oriposals in the immigration plan, the Iran deal that has corker going fir his Jules, the Castro regimes holding their people hostage due to their own provocations.

    narciso (d1f714)

  163. kuhn wrote of paradigm shifts did he not

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  164. “. It’s a discussion we need to have but won’t as long as this is about NFL protest stunts on both sides.”

    DRJ: I don’t think either of us is qualified to analyze their intent when this issue extends to many previous generations.

    Ben burn (b3d5ab)

  165. When or how does the protest end? When or how does the systemic injustice end? Who decides? Their ill-defined protest is making a political statement that is separating them from a large number of their fans who believe they’re protesting the country when they refuse to stand for the colors and the national anthem. Right or wrong, if they’re not protesting the country then they’re doing it wrong.

    crazy (d99a88)

  166. I asked that question on Twitter and the Super-Patriotic Types are responding “Yes.”

    Pretty soon this is going to be a test of your loyalty. If you watch a football game you fail the test.

    To hell with that.

    Patterico (115b1f) — 10/9/2017 @ 8:07 am

    If they’re watching because they agree with the protesters that America is a hateful, racist nation then yes they are.

    If they’re watching because they just want to relax and watch some football, then no they aren’t.

    If they’re gamblers, that’s up to you to decide.

    Pence was right to leave and it was a stunt, but a good one. It got the message across that this administration will fight the culture war that most have just given to the left without even a battle. Leaders stand up for what’s right. This is an easy way to lead. It was a no brainer.

    The culture war is a real battle for the heart and soul of our nation.

    NJRob (7f4bec)

  167. 163. DRJ (15874d) — 10/9/2017 @ 8:43 am

    It’s a way to stop enforcement of criminal laws that target blacks, even if the enforcement is justified and actually helps black communities.

    It may help black communities but it hurts black criminals. Some of whom have a lot of money. And a lot to lose.

    Sammy Finkelman (9f1a19)

  168. It hurts some forms of corruption, too.

    Sammy Finkelman (9f1a19)

  169. I blame tinker v. Us myself, that’s when it was decided that posturing eqyalled speech. Jihndon v. Us w the same sort of foolishness.

    narciso (d1f714)

  170. Happy, I thought you would get the phonetic kuhn reference more than anyone else here, good on you for not fulfilling that.

    urbanleftbehind (847a06)

  171. “It got the message across that this administration will fight the culture war”

    Goo not! Are you wrong.

    Ben burn (b3d5ab)

  172. Goo not? Ottocorrect.

    Ben burn (b3d5ab)

  173. FFS
    Are you in some mind-altering substance? I hardly ban anyone.

    No mind altering substance here. I certainly recall banning of several commenters a few weeks back. Even the long-time regular Happyfeet was banned recently, was he not? But of course by your definition he is “hardly anyone”.

    What I do with people who whine about my criticism of Trump is personally mute them. Which I am now doing with you.

    This sticking fingers in your ears, la-la-la-i’m-not-listening, is disconcerting in the context of coming from someone who is in a significant position of power. But hey, you’re not listening anyway so what’s the diff?

    Not that you’re listening anyways, but as to the idea that
    Trump’s entire strategy is to embroil himself in idiotic culture war battles

    One of Breitbart’s most astute observations, though I may be biased as I came to the same conclusion decades before he did, is that politics is downstream from culture.

    CFarleigh (a06bdc)

  174. 166, they need to fire up the vats here in North Chicago IL (Abbott is up here). Interestingly, there are stories of early onset puberty in addition to general locura on the island due to drug manufacturing.

    urbanleftbehind (847a06)

  175. Good gamblers will do well observing the turmoil. They have no home team to cloud their ability to read the tea leaves.

    mg (31009b)

  176. “This sticking fingers in your ears, la-la-la-i’m-not-listening, is disconcerting in the context of coming from someone who is in a significant position of power. But hey, you’re not listening anyway so what’s the diff?”

    Awareness much? Using script block?

    Ben burn (b3d5ab)

  177. how could a Puerto Rican power company be so ill-prepared for a hurricane

    what’s wrong with these people

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  178. Because like the new Orleans levy boards they spent it on something else,

    narciso (d1f714)

  179. I don’t think it helps the GOP to focus on tactics instead of principles and goals. It’s like putting Lee Atwater in charge of the Republican Party. You win the battle but lose the war.

    DRJ (15874d)

  180. I guess Puerto Rico is on topic since its also about Trump dropping the Ball.

    Ben burn (b3d5ab)

  181. 184

    Plus…brain cancer.

    Ben burn (b3d5ab)

  182. Good points, Sammy 172 and 173.

    DRJ (15874d)

  183. 183-narciso
    COCAINE & HOOKERS

    mg (31009b)

  184. No its mostly about virtue signaling when you’re not on solid ground,

    narciso (d1f714)

  185. Puerto Rico’s on topic since it’s also about the needless and gratuitous politicization of yet another part of the public sphere

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  186. Meanwhile Jorge Rodriguez, a Puerto Rican businessman who runs an engineerinbg firm and sent people to help eople in Puerto Rico but told his people not to get invopolved with local governments and whose statement was published in the New York Post:

    http://nypost.com/2017/09/30/inept-puerto-rican-government-riddled-with-corruption-ceo/

    …has gotten death threats and bodyguards.

    http://nypost.com/2017/10/08/ceo-receives-serious-threats-after-criticizing-puerto-rican-government/

    Sammy Finkelman (9f1a19)

  187. Every time there is a total screwup, Amtrak, grenfell towers, what have you, there were warnings and failure of due diligence. And just as often there ate excuses after the fact. We can go back to silverman falling to exercise basic containment protocol?s in the early 80s

    narciso (d1f714)

  188. CFarleigh 178,

    Patterico rarely bans people and does so only for specific reasons that he clearly articulates at the time. He also gives banned persons a chance to contact him to plead their case or apologize. They usually don’t.

    But even if he did what you claim,which he doesn’t, so what? No one has a right to post comments here. Patrick doesn’t have an obligation to read, consider and respond to comments. This is a forum he provides at his expense. it also takes time to post interesting content, and to coordinate and manage. He offers the forum to us free of charge, he tries to interact with it as much as his schedule allows, and he has done it for years. d

    You try doing that. Seriously. Instead of complaining, youu try blogging and see how hard it is.

    DRJ (15874d)

  189. Yes, Ben, I do seem to be talking about people with brain cancer.

    DRJ (15874d)

  190. I don’t think it helps the GOP to focus on tactics instead of principles and goals. It’s like putting Lee Atwater in charge of the Republican Party. You win the battle but lose the war.

    DRJ (15874d) — 10/9/2017 @ 8:56 am

    Since all the left does is focus on culture while constantly moving the goal posts as to what is acceptable discourse, do you care to rephrase?

    Who has been more successful at changing the country to their desired goals, no matter who is in power? How have they done so? What levers of power have they controlled?

    NJRob (7f4bec)

  191. Atwater was repentant about dirty tricks DRY so he had that going for him.

    Ben burn (b3d5ab)

  192. DRY=DRJ. sheesh.

    Ben burn (b3d5ab)

  193. Autocorrect, Ben. Join my club.

    DRJ (15874d)

  194. NJRob,

    Can you explain to me what you think I’m missing?

    DRJ (15874d)

  195. Because I recall the Clinton and Obama Presidencies and some Democratic Congresses. That seems like power to me. But it’s true the left historically has more control over the culture. Hasn’t that always been the case? Isn’t there almost always a move to more liberal mores?

    DRJ (15874d)

  196. NJRob,

    Can you explain to me what you think I’m missing?

    DRJ (15874d) — 10/9/2017 @ 9:19 am

    How successful has the GoPe been focusing on principles and goals? Have we reversed the horror that is abortion on demand? Have we promoted civics in schools and raised people who know why America is the greatest nation on Earth? Have we repealed the Obamanation that is Obamacare? Have we shrunk the deficit? Cut any government programs? Made a difference in any way towards the GoP platform?

    The left gets what it wants because it owns the culture. It owns the media, owns Hollywood, owns music, is trying to own sports and other forms of entertainment.

    There’s a reason Obama put ads in video games. He wanted to reach people who just wanted to escape for a while. The left doesn’t let up in their battle to destroy our nation and create out of its destruction a socialist, fascist utopia.

    Breitbart understood (as was quoted above) that politics is downstream of culture. Most Americans that voted for Trump are disgusted by the insult done to our nation and those that defend her by these ignorant athletes. For Trump and Pence to show some public support to the Americans that supported him, goes a long way.

    NJRob (7f4bec)

  197. Because I recall the Clinton and Obama Presidencies and some Democratic Congresses. That seems like power to me. But it’s true the left historically has more control over the culture. Hasn’t that always been the case? Isn’t there almost always a move to more liberal mores?

    DRJ (15874d) — 10/9/2017 @ 9:23 am

    Unless you control the culture yes. It’s why insulated societies survive inside a dominant culture while others are assimilated. Are we better as a nation for accepting leftist social mores? Why should we continue to fight against them if we’re just conceding defeat over the long haul?

    NJRob (7f4bec)

  198. 182. happyfeet (28a91b) — 10/9/2017 @ 8:54 am

    how could a Puerto Rican power company be so ill-prepared for a hurricane

    What’s wrong with these people

    I think Puerto Rico is not a fully developed democracy, and they may not be being saved by prosecutors. Jared Kushner’s newspaper had an article in 2016 where somebody apparently blamed the federal government’s failure to prosecute for the bankruptces and said even the local FBI office was part of the corruption:

    http://observer.com/2016/06/did-fbi-and-justice-dept-enable-puerto-ricos-financial-meltdown/

    It has also been alleged that law enforcement authorities in Puerto Rico stood by and did nothing for a number of years—an assertion that was substantiated by a phone call originating in Alexandria, Virginia. Some months ago, I received a call from a man stating he worked for the U.S. government, inferring he was with the Central Intelligence Agency (CIA).

    [Actually, this sounds more like the NSA, if true. Q. How did he know to call him? – SF]

    I was told that Puerto Rico came on his agency’s radar years ago because the head of the PREPA fuel purchase office started making direct calls to the then-president of Venezuela, Hugo Chavez. An agency listened in and found out that PREPA was buying sludge oil from Venezuela and billing the utility for high grade oil. The difference in value—hundreds of millions per year (today it would be $700 million a year and is said to be still going on)—was allegedly kicked back to the fuel office manager and distributed to politicians and government officials on the island.

    As the unnamed government agency continued to listen in on the calls, the caller claimed it became clear that family members of Puerto Rican FBI agents and family members in the Puerto Rico U.S. Attorney’s office were receiving payments based on these “kickbacks.” He went on to tell me that the Puerto Rico’s FBI office and U.S. Attorney will do nothing about the oil kickback scheme and the bond rating scheme because they were participating in it. He went on to suggest that because of the separation laws regarding CIA activities and U.S. national law enforcement, there was not much he could do.

    The scheme made sense because Venezuela was kicking back some of the money to people in Puerto Rico.

    If the utility were a private company the politicians would have been criticizing it all the time, but this way they share(d) in the spoils – governments got free electricity for years. If it were private the people in charge would be afraid of losing their jobs or the company going bankrupt, which would probably cause them to lose their jobs. They’d be afraid of breaking the law because opoprivate companies don’t usually own state governments. They’d be afraid of being sued. Maybe they still can be sued, but they don’t get fired because of the lawsuit.

    Here’s news (from 2015) about the lawsuit:

    https://www.reuters.com/article/usa-puertorico-prepa/update-2-puerto-rico-residents-sue-power-authority-allege-fraud-idUSL1N0VY1PL20150224

    “As a result of this scheme, PREPA overpaid its fuel suppliers for fuel oil and passed through the entire cost of the non-compliant fuel oil to plaintiffs,” the lawsuit alleged. The lawsuit covers oil purchases since 2002.

    The key to the fraud was that they colluded with testing laboratories that issued certificates for fuel that was compliant either with contract requirements or federal environmental standards..

    Sammy Finkelman (9f1a19)

  199. It s called leadership Pence demonstrated that he knows what a great country we have inherited and how it got here Sacrifice lives and fortunes pledged and lost so that this great nation could survive
    We ask men and women to give up their hopes and aspirations to come to the aid of the nation when attacked
    These fortunate few who have a chance to play their favorite sport and make great fortunes from the fans who pay to watch should give honour to those whose efforts made this country
    Thats the condition of employment If you cannot accept that go find another line of work.

    john morrissey (22cfcd)

  200. In politics fight, Breitbart knew culture is key

    Breitbart — web entrepreneur, writer, provocateur, television personality — did a lot of things. But for the Right, by far the most important thing he did was teach, again and again and again, that culture is upstream from politics.

    Breitbart knew instinctively, as people in Washington and most other places did not, that movies, television programs, and popular music send out deeply political messages every hour of every day. They shape the culture, and then the culture shapes politics. Influence those films and TV shows and songs, and you’ll eventually influence politics.

    Yup.

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  201. Are the people who stayed and watched the game less patriotic than Mike Pence?

    No, but they are also not Vice-President. Some may be more patriotic, others less — lots of people in the stands. If people start sitting through the national anthem though, we’re back to 1968, a period I hoped never to see again.

    Kevin M (752a26)

  202. CFarleigh,

    I read your #178 because DRJ referenced it. In it, you claim that I banned happyfeet — in a thread that I can see is littered with comments from happyfeet.

    You can characterize me as putting my fingers in my ears, but that characterization is silly. Do you not choose what to read from a larger universe of possibilities? I get value from certain people here and choose to read them. I get annoyed at people who do nothing but whine about me criticizing Trump, so I choose to skip reading comments from people who are bound to annoy me. This way I have a happy day and interact with people who merit that interaction.

    Someone who accuses me of banning someone who is commenting all over this thread is not someone who merits that interaction. Back to mute with you.

    Patterico (115b1f)

  203. Jorge Rodriguez sort of implied that whoever wasn’t corrupt in Puerto Rico, was incompetent, which makes sense if, in many places, things were never set up to work right.

    Then it would be a very difficult thing to get things to work right – you’d have to invent things from scratch, and not that many people have tathat skill – and also the decision to change things around maybe would only come with the realization that a lot of things existed to facilitate corruption.

    And anybody who assumed business as usual was good just so long as you were honest would be wrong. And you’d have to watch out for malfunctioning and/or corrupt entities, and be able to identify them.

    Sammy Finkelman (9f1a19)

  204. How does caepernick who bareLY knows how to kick a ball, identify with Che guevara, who was one of the most racist people around, because of the culture.

    narciso (d1f714)

  205. I think original (Andrew) Breitbart would have pulled the reins in at some point becoming repulsed to some of more blatant white nationalist constituency, owing to his Jewish heritage. In some ways his passing while truly missed, allowed for a more muscular presence to steer Breitbart into its present state.

    urbanleftbehind (847a06)

  206. And I keep coming back to: I would be totally fine with that — if he weren’t spending taxpayer dollars to do it.

    This is bullcrap. Politicians spend their entire days spending taxpayer money scoring cheap points off each other. Every single one of them from President to statehouse to city council. It’s the way the game is played. This is as much nonsense as my local city councilman, who is facing a recall petition, going on about the cost of a special election.

    Government costs money and this is just par for the course. Name a politician who has not spent taxpayer money building a grandstand when they thought it was important. (And what they think is important IS important because they got elected to decide those things.)

    Kevin M (752a26)

  207. I don’t really care about any of this. I have not watched football regularly since I was a child. I was once a huge Dallas Cowboys fan, and still enjoy watching the games with my brother and brothers-in-law during family get-togethers. But otherwise, meh.

    Agreed. I only turn games on this season to turn them off after the anthem protest. DirecTV keeps track.

    Kevin M (752a26)

  208. I note that Hillary does not spend taxpayer money making silly statements and grandstanding actions. That’s because Trump won the election, so he gets to do it instead. Or is the argument that Trump is the first president to do this?

    How much money did Reagan’s speech at Pointe du Hoc cost? Who cares. He thought it was important to make the effort. That I agree with him isn’t the point. Trump and Pence think it’s important to defend the anthem and to make it clear what they think of those who “defile” it. Don’t like it? Vote for someone else in 2020. I hope to do so in the primaries. Run Mitt run.

    Kevin M (752a26)

  209. “It s called leadership”

    Pence is a follower. Read the Ports illustrated story Patterico put up. He’s a wind-up mannikin.

    Ben burn (b3d5ab)

  210. They are attacking middle class bourgeious culture, what every radical groupndiesm

    narciso (d1f714)

  211. Puerto Rico is definitely on topic, on this Columbus Day, when we talk about people not walking out of the Colts/49ers game because the 49ers thought they were in the restroom of a San Francisco gay bar during the playing of the National Anthem.

    Sometimes you have to take the bad with the good and salvage what you can. Like Columbus. Sure he discovered Americans, but on his second voyage he discovered Puerto Ricans, and now we’re stuck with Luis Gutierrez and a ban on spray paint in Chicago.

    nk (dbc370)

  212. It’s becoming clear that Paddock is simply a massive a**hole lacking in human qualities normally seen in average folks.

    How many out there like him?

    Ben burn (b3d5ab)

  213. Oh, how disingenuous is this? in a thread that I can see is littered with comments from happyfeet.

    What laywerly …stuff. Yes, I can see those comments as well. Childish point itself, in context. And yes, you banned HF. That you unbanned him after a week or so is only because banning such a regular permanently would have caused other commenters who interact/generally agree with him to abandon this place. A couple of them even seemed to have done so for a while, probably for other reasons though I wouldn’t know specifically. But you did and have banned people for strongly disagreeing with you. Don’t pretend otherwise. Look, to say that you have rarely banned people is one thing as it is a matter of semantics as to what “rarely” means. In the context of all commenters, no you haven’t banned a lot of people. Besides HF I recall at least three other bannings of strong T supporters. It is your place and it is without a doubt your right to ban or whatever. And you can pretend to be whoever you want to be. But as I said it doesn’t reflect well on your position on Trump. And I doubt it’s limited to Trump. Though as you’re, of course, not listening, whatev’s.

    CFarleigh (a06bdc)

  214. The Sense of Entitlement is strong in this one.

    nk (dbc370)

  215. i don’t litter that’s a complete misnomer I sprinkle

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  216. 219… visit any university campus and you’ll find your answer… the Left has been grooming and shaping these monsters for years now.

    Colonel Haiku (7680d5)

  217. Name a politician who has not spent taxpayer money building a grandstand when they thought it was important. (And what they think is important IS important because they got elected to decide those things.)

    Lol. What Trump thinks is important IS important because he’s the President. So any idiotic thing he farts out on Twitter is by definition important. You can’t actually believe this.

    Patterico (115b1f)

  218. President Trump is smart he understands how politics is downstream from culture

    and he acts accordingly

    this is why he’s hot

    this is why he’s hot

    he’s hot because he’s fly!

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  219. I wonder if Gramsci would revise and extend his remarks if he knew the destination of the march through the institutions would be the stage of a perpetual Punch and Judy show set in a pig sty?

    Puerto Rico today, like Venezuela, is a remarkable exposition of the progressive future. Puerto Rico might be a little better – hungry people clutching EBT cards while pols throttle the public utilities ability to restore power to run the scanners necessary for their function is rather enlightening.

    The Puerto Rican pols sure aren’t letting a crisis go to waste.

    Rick Ballard (ada478)

  220. I don’t think so, he just wanted to tear diwb. And he thought the new man would rise on its place.

    narciso (d1f714)

  221. And Kevin M, I don’t mean to be twisting what you’re saying. But I feel like I must be mis-reading it somehow because read literally it does not compute for me at all.

    Patterico (115b1f)

  222. Methinks nk was a member of a Chicago greaser gang.

    urbanleftbehind (847a06)

  223. There is an amazing amount of information known about Columbus, for something that happened 500 years ago, but not about what he did in Portugal because a lot of records in Portugal were lost because of the 1755 Lisbon earthquake. But nobody knows very much about what he did. Most people only know about the voyage he made in 1492, and maybe some things taht keled up to it. But not what happened later.

    Now people will say bad things happened. But what he did wrong is not just what went wrong because of what happened after him, or what he didn’t know and what nobody knew – the diseases that would spread and kill the vast majority of the Indians – but what himself did.

    He became the dictator of Hispaniola and executed many Indians (and some Spaniards) sometimes the Spaniards for being brutal. It had always been one of his ambitions to rule a territory.

    It was so bad that King Ferdinand and Queen Isabella sent an investigator with authority and Columbus was removed from power, recalled and arrested. (“If only the czar knew” sometimes is true. Tiberius Caesar also recalled Pontius Pilate for brutality – except that I don’t think Pilate was arrested. But Columbus was taken in chains back to Spain.)

    Most Indians there on that island died. Some writers of the time thought it was famine, but in reality they actually committed suicide, he made life so bad for them with his demands for gold that wasn’t there, and the pillaging of the villagers by the men from Spain without adequate supplies that Columbus brought to Hispaniola, who took all the food they had. Or maybe it was disease?

    By the way, we have two words in English (after being in Spanish) that come from the Indians there on the island at that time: Canoe and hammock.

    The ship his accuser was on, however, went down in a storm and the ship he was prisoner on, although considered the least seaworthy of them all, survived.

    Columbus’s defense was that he was not a governor of a place like Sicily – the place had to be pacified – and he did it all for them and for Christianity, and as amatter of fact, he was interted in another crusade. He was restored to honor, and even allowed to keep the hereditary title of Admiral of the Ocean Sea – there were descendants of his with that title even into the Twentieth Century – and some of his money returned, after debts that it was determined he owed were paid, and other money was taken by the crown, but he was not re-instated as viceroy or governor or allowed to be a governor any more. He was given more ships for more exploration.

    His name actually was Cristoforo Colombo in Italian and Cristóbal Colón in Spain. The name Columbus is a Latinization that appeared only after his lifetime (or rarely and obscurely during his life?) He was a citizen of Genoa, at least partially descended from a Jewish family which had been forced to convert, probably in Spain in 1391, and that accounted for his many signs of piety.

    Sammy Finkelman (9f1a19)

  224. This is not the only stunt Pence was involved in this past week.

    Predident Trump re-created the NAtional Space Council, abolished by Preident Clinton in 1993, and, at what I think is its first meeting, Pence announced the United States would put a man on the moon.

    https://www.nytimes.com/2017/10/05/science/national-space-council-moon-pence.html

    Standing before the space shuttle Discovery in a voluminous hangar outside of Washington, Vice President Mike Pence announced on Thursday a renewed focus on putting Americans in space and making a return to the moon.

    “We will return American astronauts to the moon, not only to leave behind footprints and flags, but to build the foundation we need to send Americans to Mars and beyond,” Mr. Pence said during a meeting of the National Space Council…

    Sammy Finkelman (9f1a19)

  225. we have two words in English (after being in Spanish) that come from the Indians there on the island at that time: Canoe and hammock.

    Three. And “cannibal” from the Caribs who kept the Arawaks around as tasty snacks.

    nk (dbc370)

  226. Another politiacal stunt: Trump tells Congress that he wants all sorts of conditions for DACA, about hiing more immigration judges, increasing enforcement, limiting immigraiton, especially for family reunification, deporting unaccompnied minor more quickly, including building the wall, which he had said before ws not part of the deal. Spokespeople wouldn’t say what was more important or if he would veto anything.

    There’s a whole section of the Dem Party that wabts to vote aaginst DACA because its too limited – and that’s in a clean bill There’s enough to pass a clean bill but most of thee things are non-starters..

    If Democrats had some principles, but were willing to let Trump look good to himself, they would agree to include only funds for a wall, which is mostly just a way of wasting money, but add conditions for the wall, like it should not be opaque or should have holes you can see through; limit the appropropriation; and make Trump sign a statement every 3 months that Mexico was going to pay for it. And maybe after a while, that it had paid something. How could Trump oppose that?

    Sammy Finkelman (9f1a19)

  227. Granted, nowhere near as important, but here is another “stunt” by a president as noted in the NYT 10 years ago, 20 years after said “stunt” occurred (my bolding):

    From the autumn of 1986 through the end of his presidency in January 1989, Mr. Reagan was in fact moving steadily closer to a working accommodation with Mr. Gorbachev, conducting a series of summit meetings and signing a major arms control agreement — steps that were strongly opposed by the American right.

    The opposing perspective on the Reagan speech is that it was nothing but a stunt. The adherents of this interpretation include not just Democrats or liberals but many veterans of the George H. W. Bush administration.

    In a 1995 book about the end of the cold war, “Germany United and Europe Transformed,” two former officials of the first Bush administration, Condoleezza Rice and Philip Zelikow, minimized the significance of the Berlin Wall address and its role in the events leading up to the end of the cold war. They argued that after the speech was given there was no serious, practical follow-up. No one pursued any policy initiative with respect to the Berlin Wall. “American diplomats did not consider the matter part of the real policy agenda,” they wrote.

    Others agreed. “I thought it was corny in the extreme,” Brent Scowcroft, national security adviser to George H. W. Bush, told me. “It was irrelevant, that statement at that time.”

    Even some of Mr. Reagan’s own senior foreign-policy officials seem to think the speech was not particularly noteworthy. In his 1,184-page memoir, former Secretary of State George P. Shultz does not mention the speech at all. Similarly, Jack C. Matlock, who served as Mr. Reagan’s Soviet adviser and then as United States ambassador to Moscow, does not discuss the speech in his own book about Mr. Reagan’s relations with the Soviets.

    CFarleigh (a06bdc)

  228. Lol. What Trump thinks is important IS important because he’s the President. So any idiotic thing he farts out on Twitter is by definition important. You can’t actually believe this.

    What Trump thinks IS important because he can act on it in a way few can. The press treats those idiocies as important, so in that sense they are.

    Perhaps I am using the word to mean “has impact” and “sets the debate” rather than “these are the things we ought to be talking about.” These are NOW the things that we are talking about, so they have import.

    And some of what he goes on about IS important, like Korea, although he and nearly everyone else misses the point about Korea.

    Yes, it is hard to live in Bizzaroland, and perhaps I am having more luck with it than you are, but try as I might that High Castle thing isn’t working for me.

    Kevin M (752a26)

  229. As far as I am aware nobody celebrates Columbus as a conqueror, a viceroy or governor, a despot or even a converted Jew. Just as the guy given credit for discovering America. I know, sooner or later somebody had to discover America! Well, for historical purposes Columbus is that somebody.

    The constant deconstruction of America is not to our benefit guys. Tearing down a statue of Lee, taking a knee for the national anthem and de-honoring Columbus is all part and parcel of the lefts incessant war on America because white/Christian/male.

    Leftists can’t tell a male from a female but they know what the climate will be in 100 years and they know that Columbus was a white bastard. BTW, if the Indians had no resistance from European disease they would have croaked regardless of which Europeans “discovered” them. I really doubt whether Columbus or anybody at that time gave much consideration to the spread of disease by virus and bacteria they knew nothing about. Nor would they have given a crap considering the hardship of life in general in the 15th century.

    Rev.Hoagie® (6bbda7)

  230. Perhaps I am using the word to mean “has impact” and “sets the debate” rather than “these are the things we ought to be talking about.” These are NOW the things that we are talking about, so they have import.

    That makes more sense to me. Actually, I wasn’t talking about it until Pence’s ridiculous stunt. I was ignoring Trump’s crap because it was so obviously cynical and manipulative. But now that we are spending a quarter of a million bucks on a 10-minute appearance, yeah, I’m talking about it too. I guess Pence wins.

    I could send my daughter to college almost anywhere for a quarter million dollars, by the way. If they have such contempt for the money they are welcome to send it to me.

    Patterico (115b1f)

  231. To several people who just drove by, nobody who comments here is “banned.” Pretty much becasue “banned” would mean they don’t comment here.

    However, tehre is a script, available to all, that weeds out the comments of people who are, IYHO, jerks. You add in the handles and you chose to run it. Put “Kevin M” on the list and you don’t see my comments. You could even cut out Patterico’s if you wished.

    Our host is incompletely happy with Trump and not in a mood to read blind recitations of the party line. His call. But it isn’t “banning”

    Kevin M (752a26)

  232. @233 the origin is true, but the basis is false

    http://hartzog.org/j/cannibals.html

    Davethulhu (fab944)

  233. I could send my daughter to college almost anywhere for a quarter million dollars, by the way. If they have such contempt for the money they are welcome to send it to me.

    I spent my 40’s in the Libertarian Party. I sympathize. I really do. I left the LP because its leadership (then) was stealing all the donations. I don’t return because even if that hadn’t been the case they still have no interest in being effective. The CA GOP is heading that same direction.

    Kevin M (752a26)

  234. Sometimes I wonder where this country would be if Mitt Romney was finishing his 5th year as President. Better, I think.

    Kevin M (752a26)

  235. @242 you should have had your private defense agency arrest the leadership.

    Davethulhu (fab944)

  236. The head of the Environmental Protection Agency said Monday that he will sign a new rule overriding the Clean Power Plan, an Obama-era effort to limit carbon emissions from coal-fired power plants.

    “The war on coal is over,” EPA Administrator Scott Pruitt declared in the coal mining state of Kentucky. He said no federal agency “should ever use its authority” to “declare war on any sector of our economy.”

    step by methodical step food stamp’s sick and sleazy legacy’s being erased

    at this rate obama’s sick and vile corruption of the national NFL pedophile league might be all that’s left by the end of President Trump’s first term

    and this is a melodic tune to sing and this is a merry jig to dance

    Trump is strong no-one can tell us he’s wrong searching our hearts for so long

    all of us knowing

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  237. OK, look…I’m not wanting to make a big issue of this but this is getting kafkaesque. People have been banned, both temporarily and permanently. What is with the insistence of pretending otherwise?

    As for nobody who comments here is “banned.” Pretty much becasue “banned” would mean they don’t comment here. …It’s like refuting your point becasue you spelled “because” wrong.

    CFarleigh (a06bdc)

  238. The True Conservatives have backed down in the cultural conflict again and again and again and again.

    DN (4c7af4)

  239. Sometimes I wonder where this country would be if Mitt Romney was finishing his 5th year as President. Better, I think.

    Definitely. He’s not perfect. He toadied up to Trump in the end, just like Pence does. But hey, he’s a politician. That’s what they do. Obviously we’d be waayyyyy better off.

    Patterico (115b1f)

  240. i remember i was in a dark place

    i cried out but nobody heard

    i drifted in and out of consciousness

    time lost all meaning it could have been hours days or weeks

    and then

    the tiniest pinpoint of light rent the darkness

    and slowly it grew until i found myself enveloped entire by its radiance

    and people could hear me again!

    i laughed for the joy of it

    the grace of it,

    amazing

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  241. 243- Kevin M take another hit
    mittens lost the debate to Crowley

    mg (31009b)

  242. 238, it is actually, at the federal level somewhat the first ethnic pander holiday.

    urbanleftbehind (166c3b)

  243. mittens lost the debate to Crowley

    Obama’s folks intentionally fed that info to Crowley, knowing it would come up on the debate. It was a set-up with the moderator as an unintentional* co-conspirator.

    ————-

    * she’s been around the block, she should have realized the set-up immediately and refused to play.

    Kevin M (752a26)

  244. Thanks to all the Policeman guarding the Columbus statues around the country from being destroyed by the insane democrat voters.

    mg (31009b)

  245. Yes, Romney tried too hard to avoid being seen as “mean.” HE should have torn Crowley a new assh0le for entering the debate, and particularly asked her, “OK when did he say it and how did you find out?” That would have put a stake in it.

    But back then words meant something and debate was reasoned. Trump ran as Yosemite Sam.

    Kevin M (752a26)

  246. sleazy Mitt Romney, kittenish and mewling, doesn’t have a presidential bone in his perverted little body

    he’s a fraud and a hornswoggle

    and by no means is he a conservative

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  247. Definitely. He’s not perfect. He toadied up to Trump in the end, just like Pence does.

    Someone will have to challenge Trump in 2020 for the nomination. If no one of stature does, the GOP is ruined just like the crazy people want.* It’s political suicide if you lose though. Romney could do it as he’s too old to care. Ryan won’t, lacking cohones. Maybe Cruz but I’m guessing not.

    ——————-
    * (i.e. “Once the GOP is gone the true conservative party that the people always wanted will rise from the ashes. Bwwaahahahahahaha!!!!)

    Kevin M (752a26)

  248. Given a choice between a center-right establishment candidate and Trump, I’ll take the one who isn’t Trump. Given a choice between Trump and the Communist the Dems will run, I’ll maybe retire to Costa Rica.

    Kevin M (752a26)

  249. harvardtrash ben sasse will run for sure

    pretty sure the arrogant and slimy socialist governor of ohio will run too

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  250. I have so much respect for our national anthem that I don’t sing. It takes a A++ voice to sing it, and I have C- pipes. I have been told to shut up during “Happy Birthday.”
    I wish this was the biggest problem facing our world.

    Mark (2d775f)

  251. Yes, Romney tried too hard to avoid being seen as “mean.” HE should have torn Crowley a new assh0le for entering the debate

    Which is why he isn’t DJT. You can’t have your cake and eat it too. You can’t bring a knife to a gun fight and expect to win AND be loved and admired for your restraint. Losing isn’t winning.

    CFarleigh (a06bdc)

  252. A handy Know Thyself recap of 24 cognitive biases we all experience at one time or another.

    crazy (d99a88)

  253. @ Patterico (#113): He has a security detail, so he can’t do anything without expending taxpayer dollars to do it. This isn’t primarily a fiscal issue; the money involved is the whiff of a fragrance of a rumor of a rounding error on the increase in the federal debt that day, it’s less than one cruise missile fired at a sand dune in Syria.

    I’m not sure if you missed my earlier question, which was whether you’d begrudge the protection expenses if Pence had stayed for the game. It wasn’t rhetorical, and I don’t know what your answer would be, and I’m genuinely interested.

    @ DRJ, who wrote (#114):

    That’s the point, isn’t it? Trump wants people to start walking out of games in order to pressure the NFL. He doesn’t care about the protests. He cares about hurting the NFL.

    I definitely think hurting the NFL is a side benefit for Trump, the settling of an old grudge. I nevertheless don’t think that’s his main intent. His main intent is to distract from his own failures, to rally his own base (who might otherwise be wondering why he hasn’t delivered on his promises), and, perhaps, to expand it using a very emotional issue, a wedge issue that he can exploit to demonize one side of the argument and divide Americans further. If he were only hurting the NFL and its players, I wouldn’t much care, but I think there are risks that extend far beyond that. Obama routinely engaged in rhetoric and symbolism that had the purpose and intent of widening racial divisions and keeping all issues defined in race-oriented terms, which I abhorred because I think it’s the most cynical form of tribalism. Trump’s likewise encouraging tribalism, from the other side.

    Your “The Best Shows” comment (#118) also gave me a good grin, so thank you, DRJ. If the oath is changed, we might as well go ahead and substitute The Nielsen Company for the Electoral College. And your defense of our host’s disinclination to ban commenters (#193) is spot-on, and something that you & I have both personally observed here, admiringly, for nearly a decade and a half now. And I also agree with your Lee Atwater observation (#184), and merely add that helping the GOP (or the conservative cause) isn’t something that has ever interested, or will likely ever interest, Donald J. Trump.

    Beldar (fa637a)

  254. That’s a clever chart, crazy, thank you for linking it (#261).

    Beldar (fa637a)

  255. @Beldar: using a very emotional issue, a wedge issue that he can exploit to demonize one side of the argument and divide Americans further.

    Well, it’s an emotional issue for NFL fans, who think the demonstration is inappropriate and disrespectful.

    How can Republicans, in good conscience, not get on the other side of that issue, when progressives fall all over themselves to defend or excuse the behavior? Especially considering how many players have been disciplined for much less controversial statements?

    Frederick (64d4e1)

  256. I’m not sure if you missed my earlier question, which was whether you’d begrudge the protection expenses if Pence had stayed for the game. It wasn’t rhetorical, and I don’t know what your answer would be, and I’m genuinely interested.

    I would not. What offends me is his inconveniencing all the people he inconvenienced for the stunt.

    Patterico (115b1f)

  257. I mean if the next target is motherhood or apple pie or puppies–since the Confederate flag / statue issue has so quickly metastasized into the American flag / Columbus statue issue–how does it help Republicans with voters to try to play being above it all?

    Frederick (64d4e1)

  258. You can’t have your cake and eat it too

    I want: brains, sanity, ideology, competence, decisiveness, patience, integrity, honesty, and a sense of fairness in a president. In Trump I got decisiveness and teaspoon of ideology.

    On a scale of 1 to 10 a “2.” He was, however, running against a “1.”

    Meh. I accept it and will not attack him unreasonably, but there are so many better choices , and in 2020 we get another chance. If the Dems come to their senses and move to the middle, Trump is toast.

    Kevin M (752a26)

  259. #261, crazy, remember, it’s a shallow man that knows himself.

    ropelight (d782cb)

  260. here’s a similar clever chart Mr. instapundit found

    one salesguy made it into a poster at work I guess it’s kind of a provocative tool for to stare at while he thinks about all the different dynamics at play in moving stuff along the pipeline

    taking from the needy giving to the greedy

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  261. how does it help Republicans with voters to try to play being above it all?

    So, I was watching “Spider-man: Homecoming” last night and noticed that, in a scene at the Washington monument a character objected to going up the elevator because the monument was “built by slaves.”

    While it was started before the Civil War, nearly all completing occurred after slavery was ended, and it was completed in 1884. More likely it was built by the Irish, but anyway, little by little, this crap is metastasizing.

    Kevin M (752a26)

  262. vice president pence did inconvenience on me

    srsly

    you live in indiana

    you already done plenty inconvenience on yourself sweet pickles

    a surfeit if you will

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  263. *nearly all construction

    Kevin M (752a26)

  264. I want: brains, sanity, ideology, competence, decisiveness, patience, integrity, honesty, and a sense of fairness in a president. In Trump I got decisiveness and teaspoon of ideology.

    I’m reminded of Pittsburgh Pirates World Series winning manager (twice) Danny Murtaugh who said:

    “Why certainly I’d like to have a fellow who hits a home run every time at bat, who strikes out every opposing batter when he’s pitching and who is always thinking about two innings ahead. The only trouble is to get him to put down his cup of beer, come down out of the stands, and do those things.”

    People with the qualities we admire (which in an amazing coincidence so often happen to be the qualities we perceive ourselves of possessing) aren’t interested in getting into politics.

    CFarleigh (a06bdc)

  265. And jemele hill harpoon herself, you never know where the two minute hate will lead.

    narciso (4dd5df)

  266. @Kevin M: this crap is metastasizing.

    It’s electoral suicide for progressives, and if Party of Stupid doesn’t capitalize on it, it’s electoral malpractice for them.

    Frederick (64d4e1)

  267. Indiana’s solvent, it’s hardly Wisconsin, but it’s solvent, though I wish the Region plus South Bend would secede but keep the same tax structure.

    urbanleftbehind (847a06)

  268. i love indiana more than pickles it’s just kinda nonadjacent to a lot of things

    life is all about trade-offs i guess

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  269. Putin’s Puppet is doing his little dance and too many of us can’t help ourselves and feed into it.
    Divide the country as much as you can, then start a war. That’s the hideous tactic we seem to be falling for.

    Tillman (a95660)

  270. Sure thstd a visbke excuse, meanwhile every ruusian proxy, Cuba, Iran even Syria, has received a slapdown.

    narciso (d1f714)

  271. But narciso, he never slaps down Russia. Why’s that?

    Tillman (a95660)

  272. “hideous tactic..”

    They can have their yellowcake and bake it too, Tillman.

    Ben burn (d4c096)

  273. They are, after all, creatures of habit.

    Ben burn (d4c096)

  274. he slapped down russia harcore today when they announced they’re rolling back the obama-era EPA fascism

    the more coal we use the more natural gas we can export you see

    and this makes baby putin cry

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  275. *hardcore* i mean

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  276. When Obama did it … “I disagree with him but he was trying to advocate for his side” …. but I might add, at our vast expense.

    When Trump does it … “This why we hate Trump and Govt. Why are they making these decorative points at our vast expense!”

    Two guys. Two totally different set of rules.

    Poor Biggie (987b85)

  277. Belmar 262,

    Those are very kind and undeserved comments.

    You may be right that Trump is trying to distract his base. If so, I’d like to see his polling. Could there be some buyer’s remorse?

    DRJ (15874d)

  278. Beldar. I’m not proofreading today.

    DRJ (15874d)

  279. When Biden did it “a good solider for Obama and the Democrat.”

    When Pence does it “He’s a wind-up mannikin.”

    Two guys. Two totally different set of rules.

    Poor Biggie (987b85)

  280. Biggie,

    I’m curious what rules you think Trump believes in and follows. Are there any, other than doing anything that will make money and get media attention?

    DRJ (15874d)

  281. ULB… you lay down with ho’s you get sneeze

    Colonel Haiku (7680d5)

  282. 289… the real Belmar… http://i.imgur.com/kFujNJc.gif

    Colonel Haiku (7680d5)


  283. I’m curious what rules you think Trump believes in and follows. Are there any, other than doing anything that will make money and get media attention?
    DRJ (15874d) — 10/9/2017 @ 3:50 pm

    He was talking about Pence not Trump. Good try though.

    Rev.Hoagie® (6bbda7)

  284. Biggie said Trum!p in comment 288. Did he mean Pence?

    DRJ (15874d)

  285. No, dry, because the bare faces this pidgin maoist self criticism every day, and this is because the cadresare miseducated with soviet originated educational templates, so what is the next target, the next thing one has to applaud first and contunuously.

    narciso (d1f714)

  286. I’d fire him for giving a woman incriminating information against him, before firing him for the white powdery substance. Dolls can’t be trusted, and any guy who doesn’t know that is too stupid to be in the big leagues.

    nk (dbc370)

  287. dirty dolphins got cocaine all up their nose

    the national nfl pedophile league has a cocaine problem ay carumba

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  288. Yrs stupidity shouldnt neccesarily be a firing a firing offense, too many front offices would be vacant.

    narciso (d1f714)

  289. Every day there is another transgressive affirmation that must be embraced, none is too absurd to contemplate.

    narciso (d1f714)

  290. NJRob,

    I guess things seem worse in New Jersey than in Texas because the culture wars aren’t lost here. Abortion was favored by most of the population when I was in college 40 years ago. Reagan was accepted despite his anti-abortion stance, not because of it, and partial-birth abortion wasn’t even on the radar. Now it is no longer a fringe issue and many people have concerns. Other family value issues are seeing a resurgence, too.

    The difference is time has let us learn more facts. 3D and 4D sonograms show babies in the womb and more people see abortion as taking a life. Reason, facts, and evidence work but can take time.

    DRJ (15874d)

  291. Well, on this very nice Italian American Day, and since i saw that Delmar meme, let’s see how some indigenous roll at the park

    urbanleftbehind (847a06)

  292. Well what the hells the point of landing a gig in South Florida if you can’t…

    urbanleftbehind (847a06)

  293. 299… teh bi+ch set ‘im up.

    Colonel Haiku (7680d5)

  294. if these filthy NFL pedophiles aren’t gonna respect the flag you should just walk out and that’s exactly what Vice President Pence did

    good for him

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  295. the rampant cocaine abuse is probably at least partially responsible for the NFL’s unreasoning hatred for America

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  296. I think it was Pin who when asked about The opioid epidemic, replied “pull out the damn needle”.

    urbanleftbehind (847a06)

  297. #292 DRJ,

    I’m curious what rules you think Trump believes in and follows.

    Answer: None.

    Are there any, other than doing anything that will make money and get media attention?

    He is genuinely Pro-American and acts out of his belief in the best interest of the nation. As with most men in his shoes, he confuses getting his way with “what is best for the nation.” And he is a Queens jerk off of the old school type. Plus he is not steeped in any political theory of merit so he feels like a wether vane at times.

    Barry on the other hand DOES NOT LIKE THE USA and never has. He is a Leftist and no Leftists love this Country. They all hate it with a passion.

    Poor Biggie (987b85)

  298. I’m a Leftist and I love this country.

    Trump, on the other hand, only loves Trump.

    Davethulhu (fab944)

  299. How to solve the drug problem????

    Easy.

    Provide infinite amounts of drugs at no cost in Govt air conditioned facilities with no medical care provided. This is why there wasn’t really a drug problem in the good old days. Darwin took care of it and families did not have money to pay for al the indulgences (or Obamacare Policies).

    Poor Biggie (987b85)

  300. #311 Illogical, Liar or both.

    To be of the Left means to dislike what the Country has always been and to want it to be what it was never intended.

    I love you, you are perfect, now change ….. is not love.

    Poor Biggie (987b85)

  301. The left loves this country, like like loved Tina turner: I know its not an original counagr.

    narciso (d1f714)

  302. Ace, who I’m guessing isn’t too popular here…

    Especially given that the left is (quite successfully) bullying the NFL in their direction — and without any pushback from the right whatsoever, we’re essentially gifting the left with the NFL.

    Just as we gifted them academia, the bar, the courts, and the media.

    How’s that workin’ out for us?

    Bullying a bully isn’t bullying — it’s just kicking a would-be bully in the ass for a while until he stops bullying.

    The left has decided that it can’t win the political war on the current battlefield, so it has made it its mission to shape the battlefield by taking over the main transmission stations of permissible public opinion and using the power of those corporations to propagandize and bully citizens into compliance.

    That is the war. Some on the Not-So-SmartSet right may proudly pat themselves on the back for avoiding that war, denying the existence of that war, and even white knighting corporations actively fighting that war on behalf of the left — but that is the actual war.

    And, as to any conservative too polite to fight the actual war — then what is the point of you, and whose side are you actually on?

    Posted by Ace at 06:09 PM Comments

    CFarleigh (a06bdc)

  303. breitbart almost convinced the right that culture is upstream from politics

    and then the stunting effect of nevertrump set in

    it’s like his whole legacy’s been washed away like hepatitis pee on a San Diego sidewalk

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  304. Have a Coke and a smile. It’s not bullying, it’s hard sell. To which Americans have no sales resistance.

    nk (dbc370)

  305. Fair enough, Biggie. Thanks for answering me.

    DRJ (15874d)

  306. “Especially given that the left is (quite successfully) bullying the NFL in their direction ”

    Ace….boo hoo. I suppose it was inevitable Trumps influence would infuse this level of poor-me whining.

    Ben burn (b3d5ab)


  307. 318.Have a Coke and a smile. It’s not bullying, it’s hard sell. To which Americans have no sales resistance.
    nk (dbc370) — 10/9/2017 @ 5:05 pm

    And that’s exactly how the left gets away with it. They change the nuance from the truth “bullying” to accepted “hard sell” which makes it seemingly docile. Like *abortion* is a *woman’s choice*. Or *valid ID becomes *voter suppression*. Or *freedom to protest* becomes *taking a knee during the anthem*.

    Rev.Hoagie® (6bbda7)

  308. That’s convincing evidence to some people, Hoagie. I’ll need a little more cognac, not kool-aid, to wash it down.

    Ben burn (b3d5ab)

  309. Keep throwing him the br’er patch, this will work out for you.

    https://mobile.twitter.com/adamcandee/status/917514759917801472?p=v

    narciso (d1f714)

  310. What do you think has been happening in Afghanistan, Iraq and Yemen, this is just an acknowledgement of reality.

    narciso (d1f714)

  311. Don’t forget North Korea.

    Did you ever meet a war, you don’t actually fight in, that you didn’t like?

    Ben burn (b3d5ab)

  312. oh my goodness you don’t even know for sure about anything

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  313. The revolutionary guard supplied the ieds that attacked 1/3 of our casualties in Iraq and Afghanistan.

    narciso (d1f714)

  314. Narco: Long history of that…beginning….here

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1953_Iranian_coup_d%27état

    Ben burn (b3d5ab)

  315. Actually you have to go farther back:
    http://www.iranicaonline.org/articles/fedaian-e-esla

    Heard about them in scotts tome on the shah

    narciso (d1f714)

  316. Here is a post with a letter written by a young man who fell in Vietnam. It sounds if it was written today. Scroll to the bottom.

    felipe (023cc9)

  317. The link doesn’t work for me, felipe.

    DRJ (15874d)

  318. If the right is losing the culture war, then how did Trump get elected?

    DRJ (15874d)

  319. Oh yeah the radical one percent which mushroomed in membership after Mossedeq. Just like MacChrystal said about insurgencies 4 minus 1 equals 8.

    Ben burn (b3d5ab)

  320. Rev.Hoagie® (6bbda7) — 10/9/2017 @ 5:23 pm

    Works the other way as well.
    For instance,rebranding the estate tax as the “death tax”.

    kishnevi (9a5a41)

  321. Because that’s what it functionally became

    https://mobile.twitter.com/omriceren/status/917540760219738113?p=v

    Gates, buffet, Zuckerberg find ways around it, foundations and such

    narciso (d1f714)

  322. Please repost the link, felipe. You put text instead of a URL and I can’t fix it from here because I don’t know what the link is supposed to be.

    Patterico (115b1f)

  323. The functionality we fed and fed and fed like the Sorcerers Apprentice.

    Ben burn (b3d5ab)

  324. 243.Sometimes I wonder where this country would be if Mitt Romney was finishing his 5th year as President. Better, I think.

    Sometimes I wonder where this country would be if Marina had just rolled over. Better, I’m certain.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  325. GaaaH! sorry. let me track that link down.

    felipe (023cc9)

  326. Here is the link.

    felipe (023cc9)

  327. “50.It is well known that the president chose to insert himself into the NFL’s take-a-knee kerfuffle. Given that it originally was a form of protest, if President Trump had truly been concerned about what was happening, and why, then it seems he would’ve taken a more positive step in helping solve the problem. ”

    You guys don’t seem to realize that there is a war going on. The Left is fighting to win, and too much of the Right is sniffing about unseemly manners.

    The “problem” is merely a McGuffin. How could anybody not see that? It is just a handy club they picked up to beat you with. They don’t actually care about what they are complaining about.

    fred-2 (ce04f3)

  328. NJRob,

    I guess things seem worse in New Jersey than in Texas because the culture wars aren’t lost here. Abortion was favored by most of the population when I was in college 40 years ago. Reagan was accepted despite his anti-abortion stance, not because of it, and partial-birth abortion wasn’t even on the radar. Now it is no longer a fringe issue and many people have concerns. Other family value issues are seeing a resurgence, too.

    The difference is time has let us learn more facts. 3D and 4D sonograms show babies in the womb and more people see abortion as taking a life. Reason, facts, and evidence work but can take time.

    DRJ (15874d) — 10/9/2017 @ 4:12 pm

    So abortion isn’t permitted where you live? The Supreme Court’s imaginary prenumbras and emanations don’t apply? I need to move.

    But seriously, I’m talking about what you see on the idiot box every day and pushed by the media and social networks. Tennessee Senate candidate Marcia Blackburn just got her ad banned from Twitter for saying she was 100% pro-life.

    And Texas cannot withstand unlimited immigration no matter how strong and responsible the local culture. I hope I’m wrong. Maybe it’s growing up in leftist utopia of high tax, high corruption.

    NJRob (7f4bec)

  329. Yes, abortion is legal. Are you saying the culture war is lost as long as that is the case? There is a clear partisan divide on culture issues in America, and it is a concern because it is a growing divide. But having lived through the 60’s, it is encouraging to me that traditional values still matter to half the country.

    DRJ (15874d)

  330. Good link, felipe.

    DRJ (15874d)

  331. Yes but that ad, was pursuant to the stem express atrocities, which were enabled by fusion gps (yes that same company funded with magnitsky cash and with bureau complicity, allowed that recent round if lawfare against daleiden

    narciso (d1f714)

  332. All that you think you see isn’t the whole story:
    112.international/article/russias-informational-interference-in-catalan-crisis-21462.html

    narciso (d1f714)

  333. Yes, abortion is legal. Are you saying the culture war is lost as long as that is the case? There is a clear partisan divide on culture issues in America, and it is a concern because it is a growing divide. But having lived through the 60’s, it is encouraging to me that traditional values still matter to half the country.

    DRJ (15874d) — 10/10/2017 @ 3:42 am

    I’m saying that allowing abortion on demand was the lynchpin that shows how amoral our culture has become. The reason society has accepted the deconstruction of the family unit is because we’ve allowed the government to decide that it is more important and beneficial to us than family. We must take back the culture if we mean to save our nation and that includes getting society to at least reach the level that even the left has accepted in Europe when it comes to abortion.

    NJRob (7f4bec)

  334. President Trump is gonna help make it to where womens have 20 whole weeks to have an abortion tailored especially to their specific needs as women

    this is freedom it is so good

    we can dance and we can sing because we are consensus

    we are consensus

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  335. Re: quote from the Observer article (then Jared Kushner’s newspaper) that I posted at 205.

    …Some months ago, I received a call from a man stating he worked for the U.S. government, inferring he was with the Central Intelligence Agency (CIA).

    [Actually, what he tells sounds more like the NSA, if true. It is nicknamed No Such Agency. Q. How did he know to call him? – SF]

    I was told that Puerto Rico came on his agency’s radar years ago because the head of the PREPA fuel purchase office started making direct calls to the then-president of Venezuela, Hugo Chavez. An agency listened in and found out that PREPA was buying sludge oil from Venezuela and billing the utility for high grade oil. The difference in value—hundreds of millions per year (today it would be $700 million a year and is said to be still going on)—was allegedly kicked back to the fuel office manager and distributed to politicians and government officials on the island.

    As the unnamed government agency continued to listen in on the calls, the caller claimed it became clear that family members of Puerto Rican FBI agents and family members in the Puerto Rico U.S. Attorney’s office were receiving payments based on these “kickbacks.” He went on to tell me that the Puerto Rico’s FBI office and U.S. Attorney will do nothing about the oil kickback scheme and the bond rating scheme because they were participating in it. He went on to suggest that because of the separation laws regarding CIA [sic – it’s more general] activities and U.S. national law enforcement, there was not much he could do.

    I see that shipwreckedcrew posted at 10/9/2017 @ 10:22 am in the GOP waste their time talking about Obamacare thread at comment 57:

    In large measure — not in all instances — creating a criminal investigation of US citizens based on information gathered from FCI techniques, is forbidden by law. As a general proposition, when an FCI investigation reveals information of potential criminal conduct by an intercepted US person, the FCI investigation is shut down — at least with respect to that person — a criminal referral is made, and the criminal investigation STARTS FROM SCRATCH. The criminal investigators are not allowed to know what was learned through the FCI investigation, or how it was learned.

    Are they even allowed to make a referral? Because it sounds like they had information that the Puerto Rican Electric Power Authority was seriously corrupt, and had engaged in a scheme with Veneuela’s Hugo Chavez abd fuel oil testing companies and that even the local FBI and the U.S> Attorney’s office was being paid off through their relatives.

    There was some information about great corruption in Puerto Rico that just was allowed to go on. Is that mandatory? Or just protecting methods and sources?

    Sammy Finkelman (9f1a19)

  336. 230. Correction. I wrote about Columbus:

    The ship his accuser was on, however, went down in a storm and the ship he was prisoner on, although considered the least seaworthy of them all, survived.

    That was actually alater covoy. Columbus was not in that onvoy, only his wealth. As a matetr of fact Columbus wasactaully back in Hispaniola at that time. Columbus had been sent back to Spain in 1500 by the what you could call a grabd inquistor, or something like that, the Knight Francisco d=e Bobadilla. By June 1502, he had himself been placed under investigation and replaced by Nicolas de Ovando and was being recalled to Spain.

    Columbus had been rehabilitated and given new ships but ordered not to make landfall in Hispaniola, but he did. He gave two reasons: One ship needed to be replaced, and there was going to be a storm so he was taking shelter in a port. He warned the governor that there was a storm coming, Ovando refused to listen to him, and most of the ships went down in the hurricane. Columbus had a way of telling, maybe from clouds, currents, winds, temperature, debris in the water, or something, that a hurricane was about to hit. That’s part of the reason why he was a great navigator.

    Sammy Finkelman (9f1a19)

  337. NJRob @351. The European view is also pretty much the Judaic and Islamic view. Abortion in the first four months of the pregnancy is not considered homicide.

    nk (dbc370)


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