Patterico's Pontifications

10/4/2017

Catalonia to Declare Independence Next Week

Filed under: General — Patterico @ 10:00 am

It appears increasingly likely that Catalonia — an autonomous community of Spain on the French border — will declare independence from Spain next week:

Catalonia will move on Monday to declare independence from Spain, a regional government source said, as the European Union nation nears a rupture that threatens the foundations of its young democracy and has unnerved financial markets.

Pro-independence parties which control the regional parliament have asked for a debate and vote on Monday on declaring independence, the source said. A declaration should follow this vote, although it is unclear when.

Catalan President Carles Puigdemont earlier told the BBC that his government would ask the region’s parliament to declare independence after tallying votes from last weekend’s referendum, which Madrid says was illegal.

“This will probably finish once we get all the votes in from abroad at the end of the week and therefore we shall probably act over the weekend or early next week,” he said in remarks published on Wednesday.

On Sunday the world witnessed the disconcerting spectacle of police disrupting the independence referendum with violence, including the firing of rubber bullets. The Spanish government maintains that the election was unconstitutional, and the country’s Supreme Court agrees. But shutting down votes with violence . . . it’s a bad look.

Sarah Lee, who has written about the issue in recent days, correctly noted of Spanish officials: “their tactics, to Western eyes with a fondness for free speech and assembly, don’t look very democratic.” If the Spanish government believes the vote was unconstitutional, they could simply declare that they do not recognize it. Why use violence to prevent it?

Unfortunately, Americans often tend to see these sorts of issues through a partisan political lens. The first question conservatives will ask is: is an independence movement left-leaning or right-leaning in nature? If the former, it’s bad. If the latter, it’s good. Here, there are overtones of this being a Socialist revolution, and so many conservatives are wary. Plus, the stability of the EU in general, and our relationship with Spain in particular, counsel a rejection of the calls for independence. And so far, President Trump is predictably siding with the Spanish government on this issue.

I have a different view: if a political subset truly wants to be independent from a larger group, that should be allowed. This is true whether it’s Scotland trying to break away from the UK, or Britain exiting the EU, or California or Texas seceding from the U.S.

There are always going to be thorny issues, of course. Here in the U.S., for example, how would Nevada secede when 85% of its land is owned by the federal government? And what happens when — as in Catalonia — the population is divided about whether they want to stay part of the larger group?

But in principle, decentralization is often a good thing. It keeps representation more in tune with the populace, and prevents governments from agglomerating too much power. And in the end, governance should be about what the people want.

And so I wish Catalonians well in their quest — assuming the referendum shows that independence is truly the will of its population.

But make no mistake: things could be about to turn very ugly.

[Cross-posted at RedState and The Jury Talks Back.]

152 Responses to “Catalonia to Declare Independence Next Week”

  1. If a super-majority of the population, say two-thirds, wants to secede, the moral argument for secession is strong. If it’s only small group of self-seeking politicians, small fish in a big pond who would rather be big fish in a small pond, swaying less than half of the population, they should be charged with treason.

    nk (dbc370)

  2. I spent a few weeks in Barcelona 2 years ago and was astonished by the Catalan nationalism and dislike of rule by the “Castellanos”. They don’t even call Spanish “Espagnol” but rather “Castellano” ie Castillian.

    They have a lot of museums and many of them dwell at length on the perceived vileness of Spanish rule, most especially the Born Museum which has an absolutely poisonous series of videos and displays on the subject.

    Many, many Catalan flags, large ones, were hung from windows and balconies all through Barcelona, rich areas and poor.

    So no huge surprises here for me.

    Fred Z (05d938)

  3. I have a different view: if a political subset truly wants to be independent from a larger group, that should be allowed. This is true whether it’s Scotland trying to break away from the UK, or Britain exiting the EU, or California or Texas seceding from the U.S.

    There has to be limits to that, right? I mean, what if the 65,000 of us who live in Redondo Beach decided we wanted to secede from Los Angeles County? Should we have that right? I would love to get out from under the thumb of a county supervisor as dumb and useless as Janice Hahn, and it would be great if the larger parts of the county quit raising my taxes to fund projects in the Valley, Downtown, and on the Westside. But is it really a great idea to allow such small-scale revolt? What limits would you put on the ability to secede in terms of size and level of control?

    JVW (42615e)

  4. (a) The referendum results show about 90% of those who turned out in favor of independence. But that’s meaningless, because turnout was low, and because the Spanish authorities’ behavior essentially guaranteed that highly motivated pro-independence people would turn out while anti-independence people wouldn’t risk being beaten in order to vote.

    (b) This *is* going to turn very, very ugly, and will probably result in an armed occupation by the Spanish.

    aphrael (e0cdc9)

  5. And I don’t want either Texas or California to secede. Not Texas because without it all the country will go hopelessly left; and not California because then Illinoisans won’t have anyone to look down on.

    nk (dbc370)

  6. The Madrid government’s hostility to even taking a measure of support for Catalan independence, including the use of violence to discourage the regional poll, has only exacerbated an already highly charged issue and given the previously undecided conclusive reason to support independence.

    No one wants to see European nations devolve into a balkanized patchwork of principalities, but repititions of Madrid’s actions will spark independence movements all over the continent. The Basques are waiting for an opportunity to set up their own independent country.

    ropelight (051652)

  7. Now he is Argentina Catalan, from a prominent family, one member i know:
    https://mobile.twitter.com/Debradelai/status/915332976032002048

    narciso (d1f714)

  8. Oh, yeah, the Spanish government has completely mismanaged this. What percentage of anti-separatist Catalonians, or Castilians living in Catalonia, will be moved to either switch sides or acquiesce, as a result of watching the Spanish beat people to keep them from voting?

    aphrael (e0cdc9)

  9. Imagine if the occupy resistance, finagled a calexit, by breaking the rules, having been funded by Russia, and add Iran to the backers

    narciso (d1f714)

  10. If the Spanish government believes the vote was unconstitutional, they could simply declare that they do not recognize it. Why use violence to prevent it?

    I think both sides maybe may be operating under a legal theory that says that a vote of “the people” supercedes all constitutions.

    So the Spanish government somehow thinks it needs to prevent that vote from taking place; the anti-secessionists tell their people not to participate in order so that the vote won’t count; and the Catalan government, which is now in the hands of the secessionsists, insists that the vote counted anyway even if some people deliberately did not parrticipate, and even if some of the voting was stopped and ballots seized.

    This thing wouldn’t happen in Canada with Quebec, or in Scotland partly because of alink between law and legitimacy. But it did happen in the United States in 1787 where a new constitution was established in a way that simply ignored the old. The United State Senate also maybe has taken to sometimes ignoring its own rules for changing rules with regard to the filibuster.

    Sammy Finkelman (f1bb90)

  11. Sammy Finkel,

    Given that the Senate is granted plenary power over its rules I have a hard time seeing any failure to follow those rules as anything more than a political matter.

    Soronel Haetir (86a46e)

  12. Its patticulsrly in violation of provision 155, like my link points out. This was annoutfit that kept the civil guard out of the investigation into the cell that had been operating for the better part if a decade.

    narciso (d1f714)

  13. Heavy-handed Spanish police actions aside, it does not look like the separatists have thought about (or at least cared enough to discuss in any great detail) the constitutional and diplomatic hurdles that would face an “independent” Catalonia, inter alia:

    1) It is up for debate as to whether Catalonia would accede to the EU or whether many current EU members would be very happy about allowing a newly separated legal territory in their ranks;

    2) What will be the fate of Spanish federal property (assuming such exists) and institutions within Catalonia;

    3) What will be the fate of Spanish crown property (assuming such exists) and institutions within Catalonia;

    4) Will any subdivisions of Catalonia which wish to remain part of Spain be allowed to do so, or if not, can they in turn separate from Catalonia and rejoin Spain;

    5) Would Catalonia seek to create its own currency following secession, and if not, point 1) becomes immensely relevant;

    6) Would Catalonia-based companies that are listed on the Spanish stock exchange remain so;

    7) Would Catalonia-based companies not listed on the Spanish stock exchange be eligible to do so, and under what rules;

    8) Would Catalonia maintain its own armed forces;

    And so on and so on.

    JP (f1742c)

  14. I would imagine that if Catalonia isn’t part of the EU, it may not be allowed to use the Euro.

    aphrael (e0cdc9)

  15. I would imagine that if Catalonia isn’t part of the EU, it may not be allowed to use the Euro.

    I wonder if Catalans see that as a benefit or drawback.

    JVW (42615e)

  16. Its a relative
    Ybaffluentvpart of Spain, while then
    Anguished in the recession thatzapatero made worsr

    narciso (d1f714)

  17. It’s because of the Basque that the Spanish government is using the military in Catalonia, ropelight. Thee is a history of violence in Spanish separatist groups. Catalonians are smart enough to realize that and employ non-violent methods.

    Whatever happens, I hope Spain can control the terrorists in its midst. It seems like a fertile ground for terrorism.

    DRJ (15874d)

  18. Fred Z, I noticed the Catalan nationalism in Barcelona a few years ago.

    As for their actual independence, what happens when Spain says no? If the voting turnout was low, the turnout for actual fighting will be even less, I would think.

    Patricia (5fc097)

  19. The problem are irregular forces
    https://www.saulmontes-bradley.com/2017/08/

    narciso (d1f714)

  20. Non-violence is a tactic, Patricia. My guess is the Catalonians are as willing to fight as the Basques. More important, the Spanish government thinks that, too.

    DRJ (15874d)

  21. What about the coming brawl between Real Madrid and Barcelona fans?

    I look forward to seeing the Socialists wreck the place

    steveg (2c90e9)

  22. Off topic, but HAPPY 60th BIRTHDAY, SPACE AGE!

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qvPzUAeWZZY
    “beep… beep… beep… beep…”

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  23. 14.I would imagine that if Catalonia isn’t part of the EU, it may not be allowed to use the Euro.

    They might be able to adopt the currency unilaterally (Kosovo and Montenegro do this) but would be unable to issue the Euro in the same way as would Spain or France as I understand it.

    JP (f1742c)

  24. I’m wondering if they could also do something like the CFA Franc, where they issue currency that is pegged to the Euro, without the EU assenting.

    Of course, the CFA Franc system was set up *with* EU approval (or, rather, it predated the EU and how to deal with it was a problem contemplated in the agreement that set up the euro), and *any* backed currency regime is subject to runs on the currency.

    aphrael (e0cdc9)

  25. #18, nonsense DRJ, Madrid’s violent assaults against Catalans was an attempt to prevent a recognition of the extent to which independence had taken hold.

    There is no such ambiguity extent in the Basque regions of Spain or France. Basques want an independent state of their own and they don’t need to count noses to confirm the obvious.

    Madrid wants to keep Spain intact, but the government’s wrongheaded tactics are driving wedges between the regions to the extent that disunion can be prevented only at bayonet point, and that for only a brief period.

    We’re likely to see a newly independent Catalan within 3 years.

    ropelight (051652)

  26. Europe is changing so fast before our eyes……even if it wasn’t such a potential sh*tstorm it would still be fascinating.

    And yes I know we’re not that far behind. If Latin America was mostly Muslim we would have already passed them by on the road to complete civil breakdown.

    harkin (fd5d8b)

  27. https://www.craigmurray.org.uk

    “Only the Greens mentioned the UN Charter and the right of self-determination. Such was the extraordinary tenor of the general advocacy of crushing Catalan aspirations, that the Polish Law and Justice Party came across as more reasonable than the “mainstream” of the EU.

    It was, in short, horrific. I am afraid to say that it left me in no doubt whatsoever that I have made the right choice in declining further to support membership of the EU.”

    Craig is former UK ambassador who up until now was big on the EU.

    Ben burn (c770f4)

  28. 27.Europe is changing so fast before our eyes……even if it wasn’t such a potential sh*tstorm it would still be fascinating.

    Change: the conservative whine; bitter dregs.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  29. Madrid’s violent assaults against Catalans was an attempt to prevent a recognition of the extent to which independence had taken hold.

    Perhaps, but the behavior of Spanish police isn’t indicative of how many Catalans actually want formal and complete secession from Spain.

    For what it is worth, voter turnout for the referendum was surprisingly low (if current estimates are to be believed).

    JP (f1742c)

  30. DC

    Incremental, glacial change is their compromise if it must be.

    Ben burn (c770f4)

  31. @32. Ben, OTOH the last dying tendrils of Putin’s Retro Plan remains to feed division from within. Any disintegration of anything in the West is welcomed.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  32. For what it is worth, voter turnout for the referendum was surprisingly low (if current estimates are to be believed).

    I dunno. This CNN article says that turnout was 42%. Mark Steyn’s figures are that 2.3 million out of an estimated 5.3 eligible voters (which is 43.3%) turned out to vote, and both CNN and Steyn agree that support for independence was at least 90% (CNN’s figure; Steyn had it at 92%). So let’s do the math: in order for the “no” side to prevail, the remaining 3 million voters would have to vote at roughly 88% to remain as a part of Spain. Granted that those who favored independence were far more motivated to vote, but do you really think the non-voters were that overwhelmingly against seceding?

    JVW (42615e)

  33. I hate to see the fracturing of the bonds that held the modern era of the nation-state together. The world was not a better place before that.

    crazy (d99a88)

  34. It is interesting to study the United States Declaration of Independence:

    http://www.ushistory.org/declaration/document

    We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness…. That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.

    Notice the bolded clause?

    That’s what’s missing in Catalonia. At least so far.

    Sammy Finkelman (02a146)

  35. you only get one civil war

    after that you’re just afghanistan

    happyfeet (048778)

  36. The American Declaration of Independence is indeed a relevant and remarkable example of how to demonstrate one’s decent respect to the opinions of mankind when undertaking an armed insurrection to existing government.

    That’s not what this is, yet. Short of force of arms, all kinds of deals can be discussed; this is statesmanship that predates written history.

    Beldar (fa637a)

  37. ropelight 26,

    I agree this is an attempt to prevent recognition of an independent Catalonia, but that doesn’t negate my point nor does it support your claim that my comment was nonsense. However, it does show you have a short fuse.

    DRJ (d35869)

  38. the basque community in boise’s where i had this amazing beef tongue once for brunch it’s a thing

    it was very tasty and i felt very independence after

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  39. No mention by the media of the fascism on display. This is the real face of true fascism… beating up grandmas and anyone else they so choose.

    Dogs are lovable creatures, so a better characterization of the media? LapWeezuls

    Colonel Haiku (43fb26)

  40. SoS Rex Tillerson speaks truth to power:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=trljmnV6blE

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  41. Why bother with the links, this is an antifa islanist alliance that pushed this referendum, against their own rules.

    narciso (d1f714)

  42. DC: Is this new info for Texas Tea for the Tillerman? I thought they were Bros.

    Ben burn (c770f4)

  43. Europe was never really all that stable, in terms of existing without war, until the end of WWII. We kind of forced them to, I think. The welfare state of the EU helped paper over problems for years, but now the donor states like Catalan are tired of it.

    So what is frightening is that Europe is reverting to type. Hope not.

    Patricia (5fc097)

  44. @44. Ben, one is a real CEO; the other played one on TeeVee.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  45. But they had conversations…bonding with mutual admiration……too much Applejack?

    Ben burn (c770f4)

  46. Good point, Patricia 45.

    DRJ (15874d)

  47. Off topic but pleasantly noteworthy- as an ol’ad man, can’t get enough of this truly wonderful GE TV spot. Best damned corporate commercial I’ve seen in a long time. Kudos to the creatives at my old shop, BBDO.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZEPyefJps0Y

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  48. as a young reporter in the Catalonian Civil War I honed my prose to a fine edge of parsimony and developed a taste for exotic liquors

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  49. @47, Ben, One is real; the other is fake. Guess which is which.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  50. “Bad look?” … South Carolina said same thing of Lincoln, including DC breaking a series of agreement with SC on the movement of troops, supplies and ordnance down river to Sumter.

    And Catalunya as a donor state? LOL! Northern Europe is the donor state. Catalans, not so much. but very arrogant.

    You want a donor state in Spain, the Basque.

    Poor Biggie (987b85)

  51. ‘Exotic liquors..’

    Yes daffyfeet. We know
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Absinthe

    Ben burn (c770f4)

  52. Oh and “diversity” is what got Spain in the situation it is in.

    Everyone with their own language and “culture” ….. eventually that is what you get.

    Poor Biggie (987b85)

  53. #50 Oh that drunk was an idiotic Communist.

    Poor Biggie (987b85)

  54. like white elephants, the hills remembered everything

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  55. Poor biggie. Arabs took Catalan centuries ago. Ketchup…

    Ben burn (c770f4)

  56. #56 … I commend him at least for not being a raging pu$$y like our entire Intellectual Class in this Country. But boy was he an opinion journalist no better than Duranty.

    Poor Biggie (987b85)

  57. Change: the conservative whine; bitter dregs.”

    Don’t think too many Euros would agree that the loss of individual liberties, the refugee influx, Islamic invasion, multiculturalism, terrorism and the advanced police state aren’t happening fast enough.

    45 – “Europe was never really all that stable, in terms of existing without war, until the end of WWII. We kind of forced them to, I think……….So what is frightening is that Europe is reverting to type. Hope not.

    So true – and they curse and ridicule the country that insured and paid for multiple generations of peace and stability.
    funny too that my comments seemed to be taken as being anti-Catalan.

    harkin (fd5d8b)

  58. #57 … And look how that turned out for the gloriously murderous Moors. Not so good.

    Poor Biggie (987b85)

  59. I read the headline too fast. Thought it said: “California to declare independence next week.”

    Thanks a lot for getting my hopes up!

    gwjd (032bef)

  60. #56 Ahhh a story of two people talking to each other but neither truly understanding each other …… and they say you are a dumb ass. Quite the contrary as you drop insight on the nature of conflict as this one is.

    Poor Biggie (987b85)

  61. “Not so good.”

    Purple finger makes em good..

    Ben burn (c770f4)

  62. Why does Jeff Bezos always look like he is on 5 Red Bulls and two lines of cocaine?

    Poor Biggie (987b85)

  63. While I understand the sentiment behind “self-determination”, the reality is that all of Europe is largely stitched together nation-states with various ethic groups having long-standing histories. If the nation states begin to allow so-called “autonomous” or “semi-autonomous” regions to declare independence and break-away, you won’t have nation-states for very long.

    What should Spain do with the Basque region if Catalan is allowed to go its own way? What about Belgium and the Netherlands?

    What about regions of countries that have been subject of such massive legal and illegal immigration that foreign nationals have set up what are effectively foreign enclaves.

    What about great cities of Europe? Marseilles is 25% Muslim now. Large parts of Southern France have North African majorities.

    shipwreckedcrew (56b591)

  64. shipwreckdcrew,

    It matters not. We have pictures of granma bleeding from her forehead to worry about.

    Plus she thinks her penzione is going UP UP UP if only all that tax money they send to Madrid were not to be sent.

    Not just elites here who play on emotion and lies to push their destructive Agenda. Generalitat de Catalunya will save you! Trust us!

    Poor Biggie (987b85)

  65. Orwell, were speaking of was a sincere socialist, but he had poum (anarchist) sympathies, that didn’t sit well with the Stalinist in the republic,

    narciso (d1f714)

  66. And so far, President Trump is predictably siding with the Spanish government on this issue.

    predictable but not for the reasons you cite

    can you imagine if President Trump were to support these whiny euro-trash catalonians in their spurious bid for “freedom” while not doing so for the brave and valorous Kurds?

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  67. “predictable but not for the reasons you cite..”

    We gave noticed the Kelly ball-gag effectiveness meter
    ….still on.

    Ben burn (c770f4)

  68. Stephen hunter, had an early novel, the Spanish gambit with figures loosely based on Orwell, (an Eaton grad and burmese police officer) and Kim philby or possibly graham greened.

    narciso (d1f714)

  69. Ernest Hemingway?

    Ben burn (c770f4)

  70. Kurds or no Kurds, as a general rule you side with the lawful government of a country that you’re on good terms with when it’s undergoing civil unrest. Spain is not a Fascist dictatorship anymore; it’s a constitutional monarchy with an elected Parliament and a member of NATO.

    nk (dbc370)

  71. this is why i stand with President Trump Mr. nk

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  72. My daughter has been to Spain several times. I told her that I had been there when Franco was still alive. She said: “You’re that old?”

    nk (dbc370)

  73. That stings, nk.

    DRJ (d35869)

  74. I agree with you about what the official U.S. government position should be. It’s a harder call personally.

    DRJ (d35869)

  75. Oh Ernest Happyfeet, we can say we knew you when, after your novel about the New Spanish Civil War. :)

    Patricia (5fc097)

  76. Orwell, were speaking of was a sincere socialist, but he had poum (anarchist) sympathies, that didn’t sit well with the Stalinist in the republic,

    It wasn’t anarchist sympathies that soured the Stalinists on Orwell, it was his exposure of their lies, treachery and murder.

    Every high school/college student needs to read Homage To Catalonia.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homage_to_Catalonia

    harkin (fd5d8b)

  77. The head of NATO at point, DRJ, said that “NATO is to keep the Russians out, the Americans in, and the Germans down.” Not a bad strategy.

    Patricia (5fc097)

  78. :)

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  79. La tortilla espanola esta hecho con patatas.

    nk (dbc370)

  80. huh i didn’t know that

    i wonder if i ever had that at tapas and just never knew

    i might be going to purple pig this weekend but that’s not necessarily muy authentico

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  81. #81 y juevos, con sal, pimienta y pimiento.

    Poor Biggie (987b85)

  82. oh. also it’s more of an italian small platesy thing i guess so really unlikely to find the tortillas there

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  83. Google Spanish omelette, happyfeet. Tortilla espanola = omelette.

    nk (dbc370)

  84. i’ll have to go back to the streeterville tapas place to try:

    TORTILLA A LA ESPAÑOLA
    Spanish egg, onions & potato Omelet

    the company used to take us here a lot when we visited from LA, but I don’t think this one ever made it to the table

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  85. i guess i remember purple pig as spanish cause of the marcona almonds my sister likes from there

    and honestly it’s sort of pan-savory more than ethnic per se i think

    this is my weekend where my houston cousins come on their first chicago trip god help me

    i rented a boat (those lil electric ones with a cover – it’s likely gonna rain) and I’m a do pimm’s cups and beer

    i still have to figure out the food part

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  86. If California tried to secede:

    1) There would be a subsecession issue, as the majority of counties in the state have no wish to be ruled by San Francisco. Some would fight.
    2) The US could lose the entire west coast shortly thereafter (domino effect) as Oregon and Washington joined CA.
    3) The national security and economic problems would be extreme whether or not the whole west coast went.

    I doubt it would happen. More likely would be a shattering of CA into 4 or 5 states.

    Jefferson
    SF Bay and coast
    San Joaquin Valley
    Los Angeles County
    The rest of SoCal

    except for Jefferson, the states would all have about 10 million people and be two blue, two red and a purple.

    Kevin M (752a26)

  87. The Greeks make it, too, in a more casual way. Basically scrambled eggs with french fries in them; eaten with the oil they were fried in, feta on the side, and bread.

    nk (dbc370)

  88. But shutting down votes with violence . . . it’s a bad look.

    So is conducting a referendum that the law of the land says is illegal. There was a process and they were in a hurry so they said “F it!” and they are surprised that someone though the RUle of Law needed to be enforced.

    Spain is in a poor position. It has other breakaway tribes, such as the Basque and if Catalonia goes, any group in Spain with a grievance will declare their own kingdom. Why negotiate? Just break away. What could go wrong?

    Further the EU states don’t want to see it either. They have their own internal divisions, and there is always someone who will prefer walking to talking.

    I expect occupation, arrests, fighting in the streets, a “resistance” and a terrible result all around.

    Kevin M (752a26)

  89. If California had a statewide vote, and the SF area counties plus Los Angeles County voted to secede, but the other counties voted no, what does the Guaranty Clause require of the USA?

    Do they have a duty to the Californians who do NOT wish to be ruled by a Marxist single-party regime? Do the US citizens in newly independent CA retain their citizenship?

    Suppose those who failed to renounce said citizenship were harmed, had their property seized, etc. Does the US have a duty then?

    Kevin M (752a26)

  90. we’re going to pittsfield for sure

    i just realized like 2 weeks ago that a “greek diner” is a thing

    I tried to talk myself into going to Alexander’s the other day and that’s when i realized that Pittsfield wasn’t sui generis

    apparently it’s not just a chicago thing

    nobody tells me anything i have to learn all this stuff on the street

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  91. Which I brought up calexit, whose founder found moskva so amenable, remember that modest proposal by fmr kgb operative ponomarev, about secession. All the pieces I’ve pointed out suggest this was nit a benign exercise.

    narciso (d1f714)

  92. “Why are Greeks in the diner business?” asked Peter Drakoulias, 30, whose grandfather started Empire Atlantis Supplies, one of New York’s largest suppliers of paper goods and chinaware to diners.

    “Someone came over from Greece, worked as a counterman and then brought over his brother.”

    can it be that it was all so simple then

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  93. Calexit, the comic book, reviewed at Breitbart.

    Kevin M (752a26)

  94. 91.
    The obvious precedent is West Virginia.

    kishnevi (704a68)

  95. If you read books from near the turn of the century — the 19th to the 20th — you’d know that the stereotype for Greeks back then was not diners but fruit stands. And in Chicago, the most, best and biggest fresh markets right now are still owned by Greeks.

    But I’ll tell you the story of my first wife’s grandfather and maybe you’ll understand better. He landed at Ellis Island as a young man and worked his way across the country on railroad road crews to California. In Northern California, he found steady work as a lumberjack. But then he hit age 30 and realized he was getting too old to skinny up trees and swing an ax all day. So he opened a saloon, complete with card tables, “hostesses” and rooms upstairs, like Miss Kitty’s in Gunsmoke. So I’d say that restaurants and similar businesses are what smart, hard-working, but uneducated and unskilled Greeks got into when they got too old to pound railroad spikes or chop down trees. Then they passed it on to their newly-arrived relatives. Their kids, for the most part, went to school and became white collar.

    nk (dbc370)

  96. Wouldn’t it be fun to see how long the People’s Republic of California last as a welfare state with open borders? Maybe President Trump would invite Mexico to invade it?

    AZ Bob (e25fce)

  97. @ nk (#74): And Franco is still dead too! I’m old enough I remember the first time that skit ran!

    My first trip to Spain was 1977, two years after Juan Carlo had taken the throne, while the country was in the first throes of romance with him. Went back there for my honeymoon. Didn’t make it to Catalonia, though.

    Beldar (fa637a)

  98. @ kish (#96): The story of the birth of West Virginia is lost on most modern Americans, but it is, um, genuinely compelling.

    Beldar (fa637a)

  99. (By which I mean, a very specific and consequential example of Lincoln’s pragmatism.)

    Beldar (fa637a)

  100. My grandfathercwas their around the same time, they didn’t allow direct flights from Cuba, he saw how the society had started to loser the shackles under Franco. Of course by the time of the stillman film Barcelona (set in 1985) anything goes including at least a few targeted attacks on us servicemen.

    narciso (d1f714)

  101. i think my tax guy you sent me to a couple years ago was greek

    his mom was still running the place it seemed

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  102. in that article though there’s a greek diner they found in i think it was atlanta

    so somehow i just missed the whole dinerspora til now

    hah! swidt?

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  103. I believe it was the debut of Mira sorvino, and a mid level break for this person,
    http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0074065

    narciso (d1f714)

  104. foodwise for the boat since it’s at 3 i think i’m a do caramel apples and call it good

    it’s seasonal festive and simple

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  105. lol i was looking at Tushka the other day cause i was reading about Rob Morrow’s wife who was in Barcelona too

    what a godawful name but she really embraced it and named her kid tu

    in my defense i can’t help everyone

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  106. You win obscure reference of the night,

    narciso (d1f714)

  107. Do any of you guys remember reading a short story in one of your middle school or high school English readers about a poor hillbilly farm lady who gets an urge to buy a diner owned by a guy named Slick and pillow-talks her husband to sell their farm to the town banker to raise the money? I remember the story very well, but not the title or the author.

    nk (dbc370)

  108. Got it! “The Patented Gate And The Mean Hamburger” by Robert Penn Warren. Don’t read the ending, it’s sad. But it shows how poor rural Americans got into the diner business too.

    nk (dbc370)

  109. I would think if Spain had their poop grouped properly, the whole country would have a say, not just the people in Catalonia.
    Kurdistan is another story.

    mg (31009b)

  110. You know that Hugo Chavez’s daughter is of Spanish descent, right?

    nk (dbc370)

  111. Valerie Plame is of Jewish decent

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  112. That’s why her husband started the Iraq war.

    nk (dbc370)

  113. 34:

    Granted that those who favored independence were far more motivated to vote, but do you really think the non-voters were that overwhelmingly against seceding?

    I really don’t know. It may be that there is at least a significant minority and possibly a majority within Catalonia who are against full secession.

    I do find it interesting that only just over 40% of the population took part in a region-wide vote to determine their constitutional status. There are a lot of ways to look at that I guess.

    JP (f1742c)

  114. Or friend at Zblog.com believes Catalonia is a symptom of disaggregation, or the final stages of the decline of our culture.

    Today, the signs of disaggregation are appearing in all over Europe. The Catalonian revolt is one good example. It has deep historic roots, going back to the Roman Empire, but it is boiling over now for a reason. The same is true of the Visegrad Group. There is more history in those lands than the rest of Europe, but that’s not why they are in dissent from the rest of Europe. The reason for the break ups is that the underlying logic of these great combinations no longer makes any sense. The EU is a solution to a problem of the past.

    From the Enlightenment through the end of the Cold War, the great debates were about how whites would deal with whites. How would whites organize their lands politically? How would whites describe and maintain borders between groups of whites? How would whites manage commerce in their own lands and between other groups of whites? These were the great questions. The answer was social democracy, separate borders for separate peoples and regulated markets for goods and services.

    The end of an historical epoch is not just when the great questions of that epoch are answered. The end comes when new questions arise that the old answers cannot address. The EU is proving to be less than worthless in the face of mass migration from the south. The Yankee Imperium over America has no answers for the demographic challenges facing the white population. It’s why the arrangements of the old era are showing stress and beginning to break.

    In the European world, large countries and supra-national organizations are solutions to past problems. The new problems, like how Europe will deal with 4 billion Africans to their south, demand new solutions. If the current social arrangements don’t address the coming problems, then those arrangement will fall apart and be replaced by new ones. That first means tearing down the old arrangements to make way for the new. The era of disaggregation will be about the old organization units breaking into their parts.

    The argument is worthy.

    Rev.Hoagie® (6bbda7)

  115. 18 & 39, DRJ, the length of my fuse notwithstanding, it’s important to recognize that Basque terrorism (as wrongheaded and counterproductive as it inevitably proves to be) arose as a response to the Madrid government’s use of torture during the repression of Basque separatists in the mid 1960s.

    Violence against Catalans seeking autonomy is not “because of the Basque.” Violence is the way Madrid historically reacts to independence movements.

    ropelight (051652)

  116. BTW, the Z Man is very un-PC. So if any of you guys get the vapors when a white person suggests the people and cultures of South America, Africa and the Middle East may not be up to the task of maintaining let alone expanding the accomplishments of the white-Christian West you best not go there. However, those of you who have not bought in to the bullsh!t idea of “diversity” as espoused by our elite celebrities and academics who themselves tolerate zero diversity of thought or by the mantra of “oppression” as expressed by millionaire sportsmen taking a knee before leaving for their million dollar mansions in their Lambo’s, you may find his writing of interest. Just sayin’.

    Rev.Hoagie® (6bbda7)

  117. “That’s why her husband started the Iraq war.”

    YOU as*wipes are never held accountable but your wagon is tied to that orange meteorite digging a hole to China. So there’s that.

    Ben burn (c2b66f)

  118. http://freebeacon.com/issues/cruz-lee-warn-trump-not-to-tap-former-clinton-aide-as-ambassador-to-colombia/
    Stumble bum Trump has failed to put conservatives in a position to help the people that voted for him. He will ignore Cruz and Lee as he has the people that voted for him. Someone name me a conservative in his cabinet. And why are there plenty of democrats?

    mg (31009b)

  119. Well, if the Tedster finds it so important…the Texas bench is plenty deep, aint it?

    urbanleftbehind (5eecdb)

  120. Opposition to MacManus is an obviously valid conservative position. Cruz and Lee are right to publicize the snafu. Why SecState would support MacManus causes me to withhold judgment on recent news reports of friction between Tillerson and Trump.

    ropelight (051652)

  121. I would have wrote in Patterico for president if I would have known Elmer Sessions was going to be a intimidated, gutless. lying stooge.
    How clinton and obama and their personnel hacks are not under his investigation is sickening. I can only guess daca donny is fine with his do nothing AG.

    mg (31009b)

  122. Violence against Catalans seeking autonomy is not “because of the Basque.” Violence is the way Madrid historically reacts to independence movements.

    ropelight (051652) — 10/5/2017 @ 7:34 am

    The Spanish government responds this way, as it did with the Basque independence movement. So why did you call it “nonsense” when I said that above?

    DRJ (15874d)

  123. Hoagie,

    I think immigration and assimilation are issues in Europe, but the main concern in Catalonia seems to be economic. Catalonians (and the Basque) are tired of funding the other parts of the country. Ethnic issues/tribalism strike me as the consequence of their economic concerns rather than the cause.

    DRJ (15874d)

  124. I tend to agree, mg. How future AG Sessions could attend all those Trump campaign rallies and hear the enthusiastic crowds chant “Lock her up” and now do nothing is a clear abduction of his constitutional responsibility to enforce the laws.

    Trump should call for AG Sessions to resign or be dismissed, and damn quick.

    ropelight (051652)

  125. Are there two Hoagies?

    nk (dbc370)

  126. you may find his writing of interest. Just sayin’.

    Thanks, Hoagie, but I’m still in the second chapter of Mein Kampf and who knows when I’ll be able to start The Turner Diaries.

    nk (dbc370)

  127. Amazing that a 4 star general like Kelly has never led a platoon or been in battle, but will get on his knees to please the chamber of commerce dolts. I wonder who Kelly was blowing?

    mg (31009b)

  128. I’m reading an interesting book called “How the Irish Became White.” Hoagie, you might find it interesting and/or disturbing.

    James Baldwin has some interesting thoughts on the subject of what it means to be “white” as well.

    Leviticus (efada1)

  129. #124, DRJ, @ #18, (because you have the cart before the horse) blaming the Basque for the violence inflicted on them by the Madrid government is nonsensical.

    Blame the Basque for resorting to the tactics of terrorism, that’s a legitimate indictment. But acknowledge the terrorism was initiated in response to the Madrid government’s use of torture against Basque independence leaders.

    This is a case of 2 wrongs, however one preceded the other.

    ropelight (051652)


  130. James Baldwin has some interesting thoughts on the subject of what it means to be “white” as well.

    I never knew there is a special meaning to being white. I just thought it a color and descriptor of the Caucasian race. And why is white in parentheses? Is being white hypothetical or something? Is How the Irish Became White anything like how the Hispanics did? Since Ireland is a country I expect being Irish is a nationality. I’m sure there are many natural born Irish who are not white.

    Have you seen the DNA Tree company ad where the Hispanic looking lady says “I travel a lot and when people would ask my nationality I would say “Hispanic”? Then she took her DNA test and miracle of miracles she’s 16 different nationalities and now she’s proud to be 26% native American.

    First of all they asked her nationality, not her race but she is too stupid and too full of leftist propaganda to proudly answer: “American”. Secondly most Americans are mongrels so what? Third at 26% she has 21% more native American blood in her than Elizabeth Warren which means she now qualifies as an official “victim” of the left. Bravo!

    Rev.Hoagie® (6bbda7)

  131. ropelight,

    You keep talking about causation and that is important, but I’m talking about predicting behavior. Behavior is often based on emotion, not facts.

    DRJ (15874d)


  132. Thanks, Hoagie, but I’m still in the second chapter of Mein Kampf and who knows when I’ll be able to start The Turner Diaries.
    nk (dbc370) — 10/5/2017 @ 9:36 am

    Way to go nk, keep that mind rusted shut. Anyone openly talks race must be a Nazi, right? That’s why I suggested some may not wish to read Z man.

    Rev.Hoagie® (6bbda7)

  133. Granted that those who favored independence were far more motivated to vote, but do you really think the non-voters were that overwhelmingly against seceding?

    JVW (42615e) — 10/4/2017 @ 2:26 pm

    Maybe. Catalonia is divided between natives and immigrants from other parts of Spain and the world. The natives and immigrants from outside Spain seem to agree on independence. My guess is that immigrants from other parts of Spain who are living in Catalonia may be less likely to support independence, to vote, and to oppose the Spanish government’s desire to maintain a unified Spain.

    DRJ (15874d)

  134. Don’t disaggregate me, bro!

    nk (dbc370)

  135. Are “mongrels” white, Hoagie? Or are they not white? If it’s just a matter of how light their skin is, where is the cut-off point on the color palette?

    Leviticus (efada1)

  136. I won’t read the book you recommended, either, Leviticus. I looked at the reviews and the author’s idea of the Irish becoming white seems to be that they assimilated into the ruling class, instead of staying a downtrodden minority. “The oppressed became oppressors.” Is my impression correct?

    nk (dbc370)

  137. Almost, but it’s missing a key component – “assimilated into the ruling class” entailed systematic, public violence against black people. Pogroms, basically.

    Leviticus (efada1)

  138. I haven’t finished it yet, to be fair.

    Leviticus (efada1)

  139. And probably not a thesis that needs to be explained at book-length, to be even more fair.

    Leviticus (efada1)

  140. author’s idea of the Irish becoming white seems to be that they assimilated into the ruling class

    this and the diner discussion reminded me of the Chicago Tribune’s John Kass’ assertion that Greeks, at least in Chicago, did not reach full whiteness until 1968 when their enclave around Chicago Ave @ Central Ave was destroyed in the April 1968 riots

    urbanleftbehind (5eecdb)

  141. Also, ropelight, I don’t think most Spaniards would agree when you say they caused the Basque conflict. They view the Basque ETA as criminals or terrorists, not freedom fighters. IMO that perception is carrying over to how Spaniards view the Catalonia question. It’s smart of Catalonians to embrace nonviolence so the comparison is avoided, but it’s hard to escape the comparison as long as both want to be autonomous.

    DRJ (15874d)

  142. I would put far greater weight into the arrival of more “unwashed” e.g. Italian and points E and S immigrants in the latter 1800s. True, there was events like the 1863 draft riots and the later post WWI riots (Chicago-1919 and Tulsa – 1921?),

    urbanleftbehind (5eecdb)

  143. Popular writers of the 1960s I have read pointed out that the most extreme resistance to civil rights in the South did not come from the aristocracy — they were confident in their relationship with the descendants of their forefathers’ slaves. It came from the white lower class who were losing the inferiors they could look down on.

    nk (dbc370)

  144. “Are there two Hoagies?”

    He has shades of grey. It’s confusing for black and white only

    Ben burn (c2b66f)

  145. Assimilation for the Irish began as the accent disappeared, but they stayed in their own neighborhood ghettos, like the Norwegians, Greeks,Italians and so on. Accents were harder to lose but at least the Irish were caucasoids.

    Ben burn (c2b66f)

  146. Blame the Basque for resorting to the tactics of terrorism, that’s a legitimate indictment. But acknowledge the terrorism was initiated in response to the Madrid government’s use of torture against Basque independence leaders.

    Are you only referring to ETA here? The group itself hasn’t exactly been popular amongst Basque Spaniards (or Basque French) for most of its existence.

    Which isn’t too surprising. A lot of the postwar “Euroterror” groups and movements were founded by student radicals and other mixed nuts who played the old game of claiming to speak for “the people” while harbouring thinly veiled contempt for the same.

    JP (f1742c)

  147. Both sides are already calling each other Nazis so Patterico is right that things could get ugly.

    DRJ (15874d)

  148. europe’s just kinda gross how they’ve done transitioned themselves like a self-mutilating tranny

    slicked-up and slimy war hero john mccain wants to do that here in america

    but we’re not gonna let him are we gang

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  149. A more balanced view at the basque conflict

    https://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/para/eta.htm

    I don’t think the Catalan despite a longer period of enmity, had that much of a militant wing

    narciso (d1f714)


Powered by WordPress.

Page loaded in: 0.4840 secs.