Patterico's Pontifications

9/19/2017

Anonymous Sources Tell CNN That Manafort Was Wiretapped

Filed under: General — Patterico @ 7:01 am

Double whammy. Anonymous sources and #FAKENEWSCNN!! No Trump supporter will every take any of this seriously. That I can tell you:

US investigators wiretapped former Trump campaign chairman Paul Manafort under secret court orders before and after the election, sources tell CNN, an extraordinary step involving a high-ranking campaign official now at the center of the Russia meddling probe.

The government snooping continued into early this year, including a period when Manafort was known to talk to President Donald Trump.

Some of the intelligence collected includes communications that sparked concerns among investigators that Manafort had encouraged the Russians to help with the campaign, according to three sources familiar with the investigation. Two of these sources, however, cautioned that the evidence is not conclusive.

Stories based on anonymous sources are worth nothing. They may be worth discussing, however, because folks like Trump are bound to react to them. Just remember not to jump to a conclusion that the story is correct simply because it supports your pre-conceived notion.

If it’s true, this is potentially big news because the story appears to indicate, for the first time (as far as I can tell), that a Trump aide was actually a target of a wiretap — as opposed to incidentally captured on a wiretap that did not target them. Mitigating the bigly-ness of the news is the fact that the investigation into Manafort began in 2014 — long before Trump even entered the presidential race in June 2015:

A secret order authorized by the court that handles the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act (FISA) began after Manafort became the subject of an FBI investigation that began in 2014. It centered on work done by a group of Washington consulting firms for Ukraine’s former ruling party, the sources told CNN.

. . . .

The FBI then restarted the surveillance after obtaining a new FISA warrant that extended at least into early this year.

Sources say the second warrant was part of the FBI’s efforts to investigate ties between Trump campaign associates and suspected Russian operatives. Such warrants require the approval of top Justice Department and FBI officials, and the FBI must provide the court with information showing suspicion that the subject of the warrant may be acting as an agent of a foreign power.

It is unclear when the new warrant started. The FBI interest deepened last fall because of intercepted communications between Manafort and suspected Russian operatives, and among the Russians themselves, that reignited their interest in Manafort, the sources told CNN. As part of the FISA warrant, CNN has learned that earlier this year, the FBI conducted a search of a storage facility belonging to Manafort. It’s not known what they found.

There’s a lot here that is unclear. But Manafort has always seemed a shady character, though, and news that he is under severe scrutiny does not come as a big shock. Not only did the initial investigation into Manafort precede Trump’s entry into the presidential race, but interest appears to have been “reignited” by things he said to Russians during an incidental surveillance pursuant to warrants directed at other targets.

For me, the key takeaway is that Trump showed horrible judgment in making Manafort his campaign manager. Which we always knew anyway.

[Cross-posted at The Jury Talks Back.]

208 Responses to “Anonymous Sources Tell CNN That Manafort Was Wiretapped”

  1. I ask that people not completely ignore Part Two of my ongoing series because of this post.

    Patterico (115b1f)

  2. It publishes at 9 a.m. Pacific.

    Patterico (115b1f)

  3. But Carey, if we started checking fara registrations we’d have to the use redskins stadium to hold them all, so you are fine with the cyndi archer treatment.

    narciso (d1f714)

  4. In other news:
    freebeacon.com/national-security/eye-north-korea-trump-makes-u-n-debut

    narciso (d1f714)

  5. “The declaration came in a 115-page filing as part of the government’s case against Dmytro Firtash, a Ukrainian oligarch who was once involved in a failed multimillion-dollar deal to buy New York’s Drake Hotel with Manafort, and an important player in the Ukrainian political party for which Manafort worked.”

    https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/amp/doj-ex-manafort-associate-firtash-top-tier-comrade-russian-mobsters-n786806

    Ben burn (b3d5ab)

  6. “The White House did not respond to a question about whether Trump had met with Tulub, a hunting buddy of Yanukovych’s who had served in the government when Yanukovych was prime minister. But a White House official questioned the chronology supporting the claim, explaining that Trump HAD NOT WORKED with Manafort before the 2016 campaign.”

    http://www.politico.com/story/2017/02/paul-manafort-blackmail-russia-trump-235275

    In a Tuesday interview, Manafort denied brokering a 2012 meeting between Trump and Tulub and also pointied out that he wasn’t working for Trump at the time.

    However, Manafort did confirm the authenticity of the texts hacked from his daughter’s phone. And he added that, before the texts were sent to his daughter, he had received similar texts to his own phone number from the same address appearing to be affiliated with Leshchenko.

    He said he did not respond directly to any of the texts, and instead passed them along to his lawyer. He declined to provide the texts to POLITICO.”

    Ben burn (b3d5ab)

  7. Manafort was campaign manager for a few months. He comes across as the heavy, I believe Trump needed him or wanted him because in the early primaries he needed someone to twist arms and get things moving and someone who knew the “system.” Manafort ultimately left. Maybe a bad hire in retrospect, but at the time it I believe it was what was needed.

    Steve_in_SoCal (58e1f9)

  8. But Hillary Clinton is not the President of the United States. Yesss!!!

    Donald Trumpen (cfbc18)

  9. Manafort did yeoman’s work for Trump, striking a deal with the GOP establishment to support his nomination. I think that’s what he was brought in for — as a specialist in dirty deals — and he did it very well. When that was done, he moved on.

    nk (dbc370)

  10. The heavy was Lewandowki and he was successful with the great unwashed in the primaries. The “rough them up” nose-droolers. But Lewandowski was not the man to bring over the Ryans and the Priebuses. For that Trump needed a “guess what I have in this briefcase and you can have it” guy.

    nk (dbc370)

  11. Oh well, at least he used a perfectly disposable tool in the truest sense of the word. It is truer reflection of the holdout GOPe and RelucTrump than of Trump that this was the guy that brough them over.

    urbanleftbehind (5eecdb)

  12. As Jim Comey might put it: Lordy, there appear to be tapes.

    https://www.lawfareblog.com/latest-scoops-cnn-and-new-york-times-quick-and-dirty-analysis

    Ben burn (b3d5ab)

  13. No they don’t actually have any evidence:
    https://mobile.twitter.com/omriceren/status/910152179876548608?p=v

    narciso (d1f714)

  14. So does this mean that Trump Tower was in fact wire tapped?

    AZ Bob (8784fc)

  15. Probably at one point, but they dint give a farthing about Ukraine why tick off the beat, that’s why lesins murder went unaknowledge. There’s enough rubles circulating to fill the black sea

    narciso (d1f714)

  16. The FBI then restarted the surveillance after obtaining a new FISA warrant that extended at least into early this year.

    There’s a sentence just before this one in the original article:

    The surveillance was discontinued at some point last year for lack of evidence, according to one of the sources.

    Since we don’t know why it was restarted, we don’t know if further evidence was found to justify the investigation or if it was politically motivated. All of that is of course secret.

    What we do know, is that the FBI either went rogue, or they restarted the wiretap with Obama’s authority.

    Frederick (64d4e1)

  17. Now of course the rocket designs likely came from Russia or Ukraine and they buy north Korea cole

    http://freebeacon.com/national-security/bolton-trumps-u-n-speech-the-best-of-his-presidency

    narciso (d1f714)

  18. This story was also in the New York Post (one of three front page stories – the Manafort one is on page 9) and New York Daily News (minor front page headline, referring you to page 10) and there was also the New York Times lead front page story, that,while it mentions nothing about FISA warrants, focused on the investigation of Manafort and extended it a little bit to the idea that Mueller is adopting a very aggressive course with people in the Russian inquiry, except for White House officials, who are being permitted to give voluntary interviews instead of being hit with grand jury subpoenas and search warrants, and even edging over into penetrating attorney-client privilege. (when lawyers prepare public documents it’s an exception) I don’t seem to find a`story about this in the Wall Street Journal.

    There were actually two FISA warrants that involved Manafort. One started in 2014 and went into 2016 but had expired by the time he was hired by the Trump campaign, and the other began after he was no longer with the campaign and extended into 2017.

    There is, or could be, a possibility, that Trump could have been overheard if he talked to Manafort during the periods of the FISA warrants and CNN claims the second warrant included a period of time when Trump is known to have spoken to Manafort, and that they continued to talk all the way until lawyers for both the President and Manafort insisted that they stop. (obviously because this could be interpreted as a case of someone trying to influence a witness, or a target trying to influence an investigation.)

    And there’s also the fact that Manafort has a residence (or business office, or pied a terre?) in Trump Tower.

    He also has a home in Alexandria, Virginia, which is the place where the FBI picked a lock July 26, when they executed their surprise search warrant, and they also searched a storage locker.

    Manafort’s apartment was on Floor 43, while Trump lived on Floors 66 to 68 while also having an office on Floor 26. From 2005 to 2016, Manafort’s apartment there was in the name of a limited liability corporation – then he put it in his own name.

    https://ny.curbed.com/2016/10/25/13405036/trump-tower-residents-list

    CNN also says the (second FISA warrant) turned up inconclusive indications that Manafort may have (probably earlier) encouraged Russian operatives to help the campaign. It might be that the main thing that’s inconclusive is whether some of the people he communicated with were actually Russian operatives, and not just suspected of being so. It doesn’t say either how strong the suspicion is – like maybe if Russian officials spoke of getting them to do something or other – which still wouldn’t tell you if Manafort knew or didn’t know these people were not acting for themselves, but were acting, or would be expected to act, as Russian agents, unless maybe the type of help mentioned clearly involved the Russian gvernment or money.

    And it doesn’t even say if the people they are talking about were American citizens or not, or what kind of help Manafort had wished for, or if the evidence amounted to more than a few words in passing or not.

    The 2014 investigation involved Manafort being paid with secret (siphoned off?) funds by the Party of Regions, but Manafort says he didn’t know there was anything posssibly illegimate about the source of the money with which he was paid for his work for Viktor F. Yanukovych and the more or less pro-Russia Party of Regions. Manafort says he didn’t get cash even if a ledger seems to indicate that cash was taken for him. When the`problem was publicized, he quit the campaign.

    Sammy Finkelman (02a146)

  19. They probably bootstrapped the dossier that came from akmetshin who sent veselnitskaya
    to trump tower, and he was there to supervise.

    narciso (d1f714)

  20. Regarding the #fakenews angle, I don’t doubt that CNN talked to “sources” and those sources said what they wrote here.

    #Fakenews is about what is presented, and how, and what is left out.

    The original narrative, according to the CNN headline at the time, was “Trump’s baseless wiretap claim”. I am interested to see what narrative replaces it.

    Frederick (64d4e1)

  21. Exactly so leaving out that podestas firm was also under scrutiny. That the evidence
    was drawn from the dodge dossier and the nearly as dubious crowdstrike report.

    narciso (d1f714)

  22. Meanwhile at the UN……

    TRUMP: “The problem in Venezuela is not that socialism has been poorly implemented, but that socialism has been faithfully implemented. (Applause) From the Soviet Union to Cuba to Venezuela, wherever true socialism or communism has been adopted, it has delivered anguish and devastation and failure.
    “Those who preach the tenets of these discredited ideologies only contribute to the continued suffering of the people who live under these cruel systems. America stands with every person living under a brutal regime. Our respect for sovereignty is also a call for action. All people deserve a government that cares for their safety, their interests and their well-being, including their prosperity.”

    https://news.grabien.com/story-trump-problem-venezuela-not-socialism-has-been-poorly-implem

    harkin (32652f)

  23. Now caracas and their mini me, Ecuador bank through Panama or they did, I think Mrs ortega was beginning to investigate that.

    narciso (d1f714)

  24. i heard the fbi was a white nationalist front group that’s why it’s so corrupt

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  25. this is why there’s never been an African American Director of the FBI

    cause the FBI is racist against black people

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  26. Feet, I’ve heard somewhat the opposite, that the FBI fixation with mobsters now with white supramacists is the result of both the LBJ infused 1960s and Clintonic 1990s ramp up of A-A hiring, but OK then…If Clarke could stop it wit de whyte womminz and manage something other than shooing people out of county parks at sunset, he’d have been in like Flint

    urbanleftbehind (5eecdb)

  27. hard to know for sure

    best thing to do is fire all them corrupt fbi taco squeezers and start over with a clean slate

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  28. The problem in Venezuela is not that socialism has been poorly implemented, but that socialism has been faithfully implemented.

    Socialism is pretty bad – but what’s wrecked the economy of Venezuela is not so much socialism as ancillary ideas derived or related to socialism – and the real problem is a lack of democracy, because this all would have been gone a long time ago if there was any opportunity to replce the government.

    Also, all of this, or a lot of it, could be just an excuse to steal money. I’m not sure the government of Venezuela did anything because of these principles, aside from the idea that they could always issue orders to people as to what to charge etc. Nwo that doesn’t work.

    Sammy Finkelman (02a146)

  29. @Sammy: I’m not sure the government of Venezuela did anything because of these principles

    Nationalization and expropriation of industries. Communal councils for citizens.

    Frederick (64d4e1)

  30. You can’t have a worker’s paradise without workers with a work ethic. If the majority of your population just wants to snooze under a palm tree with a bottle of rum all day ….

    nk (dbc370)

  31. @nk: Furthermore the workers left to themselves make poor choices; their false consciousness is so extreme that they might think they’re better off somewhere else. Any government run for their benefit will have to prevent them leaving, by deadly force if necessary.

    Frederick (64d4e1)

  32. The story of what led to the second FISA warrant was in the New York Times story that FBI Director James Comey told Donald Trump and members of Congress was “in the main” “not true” and agreed with Senator Cotton that it was “almost entirely wrong” Maybe it wasn’t so wrong after all. But only some of the context – trying to link it to Trump – was not true.

    https://www.nytimes.com/2017/02/14/us/politics/russia-intelligence-communications-trump.html

    The National Security Agency, which monitors the communications of foreign intelligence services, initially captured the calls between Mr. Trump’s associates and the Russians as part of routine foreign surveillance. After that, the F.B.I. asked the N.S.A. to collect as much information as possible about the Russian operatives on the phone calls, and to search through troves of previous intercepted communications that had not been analyzed.

    Also:

    The officials said the intercepted communications were not limited to Trump campaign officials, and included other associates of Mr. Trump. On the Russian side, the contacts also included members of the government outside of the intelligence services, they said. All of the current and former officials spoke on the condition of anonymity because the continuing investigation is classified.

    The officials said that one of the advisers picked up on the calls was Paul Manafort, who was Mr. Trump’s campaign chairman for several months last year and had worked as a political consultant in Ukraine. The officials declined to identify the other Trump associates on the calls….

    Mr. Manafort, who has not been charged with any crimes, dismissed the officials’ accounts in a telephone interview on Tuesday. “This is absurd,” he said. “I have no idea what this is referring to. I have never knowingly spoken to Russian intelligence officers, and I have never been involved with anything to do with the Russian government or the Putin administration or any other issues under investigation today.”

    He added, “It’s not like these people wear badges that say, ‘I’m a Russian intelligence officer.’”

    Several of Mr. Trump’s associates, like Mr. Manafort, have done business in Russia. And it is not unusual for American businessmen to come in contact with foreign intelligence officials, sometimes unwittingly, in countries like Russia and Ukraine, where the spy services are deeply embedded in society. Law enforcement officials did not say to what extent the contacts might have been about business.

    The officials would not disclose many details, including what was discussed on the calls, the identity of the Russian intelligence officials who participated, and how many of Mr. Trump’s advisers were talking to the Russians. It is also unclear whether the conversations had anything to do with Mr. Trump himself.

    Later, Comey told the Senate committee:

    https://www.nytimes.com/2017/06/08/us/politics/senate-hearing-transcript.html

    RISCH: … OK.

    On — I remember, you — you talked with us shortly after February 14th, when the New York Times wrote an article that suggested that the Trump campaign was colluding with the Russians. You remember reading that article when it first came out?

    COMEY: I do. It was about allegedly extensive electronic surveillance…

    RISCH: Correct.

    (CROSSTALK)

    COMEY: … communications. Yes, sir.

    RISCH: And — and that upset you to the point where you actually went out and surveyed the intelligence community to see whether — whether you were missing something in that. Is that correct?

    COMEY: That’s correct. I want to be careful in open setting. But…

    RISCH: I — I’m — I’m not going to any further than that with it.

    COMEY: OK.

    RISCH: So thank you.

    In addition to that, after that, you sought out both Republican and Democrat senators to tell them that, hey, I don’t know where this is coming from, but this is not the — this is not factual. Do you recall that?

    COMEY: Yes.

    RISCH: OK. So — so, again, so the American people can understand this, that report by the New York Times was not true. Is that a fair statement?

    COMEY: In — in the main, it was not true. And, again, all of you know this, maybe the American people don’t. The challenge — and I’m not picking on reporters about writing stories about classified information, is that people talking about it often don’t really know what’s going on.

    And those of us who actually know what’s going on are not talking about it. And we don’t call the press to say, hey, you got that thing wrong about this sensitive topic. We just have to leave it there.

    Sammy Finkelman (02a146)

  33. 32. But all of that phony. It was just stealing and lies.

    The thing about socialism is, it abolishes the concept of stealing.

    Sammy Finkelman (02a146)

  34. Manafort needs to buy a dog.

    1. He needs a friend.

    2. People can’t just slip in your house like a surprise FBI wake up service.

    Pinandpuller (16b0b5)

  35. I think that the proscriptions on emigration in those places are due more to the implementation of the totalitarian philosophy — “the government will decide where you live, not you” — than to anything else. On the other hand, complaints about “brain drain” and other losses of citizens due to emigration can be heard in every country, even the United States, so there might be rational economic and demographic reasons, too.

    nk (dbc370)

  36. @24 harkin

    Now that’s what you call a reset button.

    Pinandpuller (16b0b5)

  37. @29 urbanleftbehind

    Wasn’t there an actual directive to “Get Whitey [Bolger]?”

    Pinandpuller (16b0b5)

  38. Your phone call may be monitored by the FBI for training purposes.

    Pinandpuller (16b0b5)

  39. i heard the fbi was a white nationalist front group that’s why it’s so corrupt
    happyfeet (28a91b) — 9/19/2017 @ 9:37 am

    You heard right. Also, they’re Mormon.

    http://www.broadway.com/shows/book-mormon/

    Steve57 (0b1dac)

  40. No that was the exact opposite in fact he had a handler Connolly, who was essentially the Matt Daamon character.

    narciso (cec177)

  41. The thing about socialism is, it abolishes the concept of stealing.
    Sammy Finkelman (02a146) — 9/19/2017 @ 10:52 am

    I have to disagree. I think it enshrines stealing in the Socialist Republic’s constitution. Or maybe it changes the definition. When the government does it you dare not call it theft.

    On a side note, I caught a Rage Against the Machine video the other night and I had to laugh. I think it was Sleep Now in the Fire. It was filmed down on Wall Street in guerilla fashon a la Get Back and Where the Streets Have No Name. Apparently there was such a riot that the NYSE had to close early.

    Anyway, they had a two second shot of a guy holding up a Donald J Trump for President 2000 sign. I had to wonder what Tom Morello would do if I broke into his house and carted off his sweet Che Marshall half-stack. I’d have to repaint the cabinet. That goes without saying.

    Pinandpuller (16b0b5)

  42. @42 Steve57

    Elder Comey got excommunicated.

    Pinandpuller (16b0b5)

  43. mormons do it downtown

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  44. Moody Bible Institute let that happen so close to their turf…and the Jesuits wont be far (Loyola University’s Business and Law Schools) either.

    urbanleftbehind (5eecdb)

  45. Not enough praying going on.

    The Hill

    Alabama Senate candidate Roy Moore in an August speech said the U.S. asked for “shootings and killings” because the country has “taken God out of everything.”

    In an Aug. 24 speech to Citizen Impact USA, a Christian conservative group, Moore also lamented the lack of prayer in public schools and city council meetings.

    Ben burn (b3d5ab)

  46. He is talking about North Korea, right?

    “Remember that you’re dealing with a population that knows very little about the outside world except what the government tells it about the outside world, and, because of that, a population that firmly believes the United States is always one step away from annihilating it and has been since the middle of the last century. Now, before god and the world, here’s an American president saying that for real. The government propaganda apparatus doesn’t even need to make anything up this time around.

    http://www.esquire.com/news-politics/politics/a12274982/trump-un-speech/

    Ben burn (b3d5ab)

  47. Jesuits often perplex me

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  48. They perplex me, too.

    Steve57 (0b1dac)

  49. I was educated by them, in part.

    When wenner fires taibbi will he go to puffington, where they BS for free

    narciso (d1f714)

  50. Dominicans are more my speed.

    thif

    Steve57 (0b1dac)

  51. Damn. can you add an edit function?

    Steve57 (0b1dac)

  52. i find a lot of them have a very bland affect – almost like they’re missing a dimension of personality

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  53. Federal bureau of incompetents

    mga (21de20)

  54. Phone is small
    Fingers too big

    mg (21de20)

  55. I thought I was the only one who had that problem, mg.

    Steve57 (0b1dac)

  56. You can nick name me ten gauge.

    Steve57 (0b1dac)

  57. 50.

    Remarks by President Trump to the 72nd Session of the United Nations General Assembly
    United Nations New York, New York 10:04 A.M. EDT:

    https://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press-office/2017/09/19/remarks-president-trump-72nd-session-united-nations-general-assembly

    Not one word about Burma/Myanmar. Or any place genocide or attacks on civilians are occuring.

    It’s a very false speech. President Trump blames dislocation and mass migration on “international criminal networks” which is only true in Central America.

    And I don’t believe much of it makes any sense. Just what is “our way of life” that might have been imposed on other people after World War II?

    He said:

    If the righteous many do not confront the wicked few, then evil will triumph.

    I think he is using avery crabbed view of evil, or a distorted version of reality.

    The evil he wants to confront is mostly, or entirely, one country encroaching on another, although he does attack the North Korean regime for ” the starvation deaths of millions of North Koreans, and for the imprisonment, torture, killing, and oppression of countless more.” But that’s not his main complaint – it’s just thrown in as a sweetener. In fact U.S. policy is to try to reassure Rocket Man that he can continue to imprison, torture, kill, and oppress his people just so long as he doesn’t affect any non-citizens of North Korea. Rocket Man does not believe this because if so why should we care about what happens to South Korea and Japan? Especially, South Korea, which he is the heriditary ruler of.

    Sammy Finkelman (02a146)

  58. It’s very hard to read between the lines. Does Trump really want to hold responsible “those countries who support and finance terror groups like al Qaeda, Hezbollah, the Taliban and others that slaughter innocent people.”

    That means Pakistan. Things are getting a little worse there, now:

    https://www.nytimes.com/2017/09/16/world/asia/pakistan-hafiz-muhammad-saeed-milli-muslim-league.html

    He’s on Wanted Posters in U.S., and Campaign Posters in Pakistan

    LAHORE, Pakistan — For years, Hafiz Muhammad Saeed, one of the most-wanted militant leaders in South Asia, has lived in the open in Pakistan despite a $10 million American bounty on his head. He has mocked efforts by the United States to capture him and led large public gatherings in Lahore, Pakistan’s second-largest city.

    Now he is trying something even more brazen: In recent weeks, he has become the face of a new political party campaigning to win the seat of a former prime minister in the National Assembly.

    Last month, the Islamist charity that Mr. Saeed founded — Jamaat-ud-Dawa, which is widely accused of being a front for the Lashkar-e-Taiba militant group that waged the deadly 2008 Mumbai attacks and is on the United Nations list of global terrorist groups — announced that it was starting the Milli Muslim League political party.

    The Election Commission of Pakistan has forbidden the display of Mr. Saeed’s picture on election posters, but despite these clear orders, the constituency in Lahore is covered with posters showing Mr. Saeed, his visage side by side with the official candidate, Muhammad Yaqoob Sheikh, a senior Jamaat-ud-Dawa leader.

    Mr. Saeed, who is under house arrest, cannot run for the seat himself nor can he attend campaign events in person. Mr. Sheikh was placed in 2012 on a United States Treasury sanctions list of those designated as leaders of terrorist organizations.

    Now note I think Trump may be serious – the only thing s he may have no idea hw hard ot will be toturn Pakistan around.

    And China – he’s praising China and Russia for voting for resolutions. They only did that – and they only verbally support U.S. policy – to prevent the U.S. from doing more on his own. trump was actaually happy about gas lines in Pyongyang – theer are no cars there except in comnmection with the regime – that must have been staged – it doesn’t mean there’s a shortage

    Sammy Finkelman (02a146)

  59. Trump says ” No nation on earth has an interest in seeing this band of criminals arm itself with nuclear weapons and missiles.”

    I think it is obviously not the case that all nations think so, however muxh the State Department wants to argue taht they should think so.

    . I think China, or people influential in China want to see a regime get away with the use of nuclear weapons, because it would make their own possession of nuclear weapons so much more valuable, and North Korea is an excellent test case. If it doesn’t get awya with it they won’t have lost too much.

    And until some nation uses nuclear weapons with impunity, or the retaliation gets condemned which also would help destroy MAD, they will promote genocide and other forms of mass murder, the goal being to increase tolerance for that.

    Sammy Finkelman (02a146)

  60. ok, ten gauge.
    laughing

    mg (21de20)

  61. I am glad.

    Steve57 (0b1dac)

  62. Do you own a 10 gauge?
    I used my Uncle George’s once when I was 13 or so. My shoulder was black and blue when I was through.

    mg (21de20)

  63. 63… okay, Sammy, no sane nation…

    Colonel Haiku (0842fd)

  64. Patterico makesa good point. It is CNN, so folks may wish to wait for a more credible source.

    Colonel Haiku (0842fd)

  65. CNN angle is what’s troubling here, not the lying members of Congress or the former FBI director or the rogue intelligence services.

    Colonel Haiku (0842fd)

  66. I wish Dick Cheney could be persuaded to take benburned out hunting. Is there a season on D-bags?

    Colonel Haiku (0842fd)

  67. FISA’s for spies not crooks. What were (are) they investigating?

    crazy (d99a88)

  68. open season-no limit

    mg (21de20)

  69. Me too I also hope someone shoots people I disagree with.

    Davethulhu (3a2442)

  70. It’s official: Fox News has moved to the left.

    “You’re buggin’ me, man! You’re buggin’ me!” – Sylvester Marcus [Dick Shawn] ‘It’s A Mad, Mad, Mad, Mad, World’ – 1963

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  71. lock and load davy-boy

    mg (21de20)

  72. 63. 68. okay, Sammy, no sane nation…

    No nation not run by an evil government. The idea that this is not sane, is based on the idea that North Korea, or Iran for that matter, might attack anyone, but that is not true – it won’t attack its friends, and they prove themselves to be its friends by protecting the government from other governments, bribing them, and helping them probably with secret police tactics, torture equipment and whatever – things the United States will not do and won’t even be asked to do.

    North Korea’s missiles rely on imported fuel. A dangerous fuel, that the Soviet Union stopped using – a fuel that created a great disaster in 1960. Russia recently started making it again – they were importing it. The fuel is too volatile as well as poisonous.

    I tend to think this is too reckless for Russia – but remember, Russia can’t stop it, so the choice is between futilely opposing it and maybe becoming a target, or making North Korea fell like Russia is an ally. From Putin’s point of view, he might as well try yo get Rocket Man to think Russia is an ally.

    Mao and the Chinse military were always bothered by the fact that nuclear weapons didn’t scare anyone.

    Sammy Finkelman (db3b66)

  73. @61. As far as he knows, Burma Myanmar was a ‘looza’ contestant in a Miss World pageant some years back.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  74. Cognitive behavioral therapy would help her, nk.

    mg (21de20)

  75. Imagery based exposure should do it.

    mg (21de20)

  76. 76… 🦑 Hunting 🔫

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  77. reads like a clinton was involved, narciso!!

    mg (21de20)

  78. Catherine Herridge is like a warm, turquoise water, white sand beach in a sea of Jim Acostas.

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  79. Interesting… A green water pistol icon posted using an iPhone becomes a revolver on an iPad. Who knew?

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  80. That might be the south Alabama creeping out of Tim Cook (after reading another story, found out Cook was from Robertsdale AL and a War Eagle grad to boot).

    urbanleftbehind (684c7d)

  81. And nary any interest in Hillary and Bill’s Russia millions.

    But Manafort chump change ………

    KRS One (987b85)

  82. Cool handle, 92.

    urbanleftbehind (684c7d)

  83. The government propaganda apparatus doesn’t even need to make anything up this time around.

    This is absolutely true. The North Koreans could lift the MSM storied verbatim. All the propaganda and spin has been done for them.

    I read the speech and while I would argue with some of the phrasing, I think that Trump said JUST what he promised in the campaign. That America would favor Americans, that we would befriend nations that looked out for their people first, and that anyone who said their country put “the world” first was lying or deluded.

    It was a clear and effective speech, and it put the world on notice that North Korea with nuclear weapons is not going to be the way this thing ends, and Iran should take what is coming to heart.

    Kevin M (752a26)

  84. Now note I think Trump may be serious – the only thing s he may have no idea hw hard ot will be toturn Pakistan around.

    When North Korea’s military disappears in an hour of unremitting attack, Pakistan and Iran will get right with Jesus.

    Kevin M (752a26)

  85. Sammy–

    You argue about deterrence and leadership and sanity, as if that had a thing to do with the problem. It doesn’t.

    The problem is that both those countries signed the Non-Proliferation Treaty, which allowed them nuclear reactors and help with the technology. Then both countries used those reactors to divert fissionable material in preparation for a nuclear weapon*.

    If these countries can cheat so badly on the NPT that they end up with the very weapons they foreswore, then the other 190 countries who signed it** can reasonably determine that they, too, might benefit from similar cheating. Since we won’t stop it now, we won’t stop it ever.

    And so, 20 or 30 years from now, we have 43 nuclear weapons states and the hope of deterrence (or even knowing who your attacker is) is lost. And then we have the last war, one of many vs many.

    So, your microscopic focus on this tree misses the forest of danger.

    North Korea delenda est

    ——–
    * North Korea actually did this several times, and we stupidly let them, thanks toJimmy Carter, Bill Clinton and Barack Obama.

    ** Pakistan, India, Israel and South Sudan are the only non-signatories. North Korea withdrew after they exploded a bomb.

    Kevin M (752a26)

  86. Mainland China wants to absorb Taiwan, butthe fact that they cannot issue a credible threat of using nuclear weapons on Taiwan prevents that.

    Sammy Finkelman (db3b66)

  87. 94. Kevin M (752a26) — 9/19/2017 @ 9:10 pm

    it put the world on notice that North Korea with nuclear weapons is not going to be the way this thing ends

    I think “the world” doesn’t believe that. They don’t believe there’s any kind of credible military threat against North Korea, and all of that is just talk. They may think that anyway Trump lies, which he does in other contexts.

    The Administration is not being explicit enough beause they don’t want to explain exactly what the military plan is, and they are also trying to maintain operational security, and so people think there is no military plan in the works, and kit’s all bluff. They think maybe there is no red line. (although North Korea seems to be trying to avoid crossing it, at least for now.)

    They’re not listenting to what the Administration says.

    They don’t even believe that Trump would cut off all trade with China. That isn’t being threatened too much because China is pretending to want to help, and Trump seems to be inclined (sometimes) to believe the Chinese leadership. The Chinese leadership may not understand, in the meantime, that merely wanting to help is not enough.

    It is possible that North Korea may stop (for a prolonged period of time, like a year or a year and a half or even longer) making more nuclear and ballistic missile tests, and maybe stop it with the verbal threats too, and freeze the situation where it is, until the coast is clearer. North Korea would still be being watched very closely, and this situation may be more unstable than they think.

    Sammy Finkelman (db3b66)

  88. You can just tell that it’s only the attempt to maintain surprise that is the reason that Administration is not being more explicit. There also may be various alternate contingency plans.
    Kevin M:

    When North Korea’s military disappears in an hour of unremitting attack

    They will collapse like the Incas – but for precisely that reason, as well as others, Pakistan and Iran will distinguish their cases from that.

    Iran actually did get scared in 2003 when the Iraqi regime of Saddm Hussein was quickly destroyed, but they recovered their courage. Qaddafi’s Libya did get rid of all of its nuclear weapons, which is now widely regarded internationally as a mistake because it led to his overthrow and death eight years later.

    If these countries can cheat so badly on the NPT that they end up with the very weapons they foreswore, then the other 190 countries who signed it** can reasonably determine that they, too, might benefit from similar cheating. Since we won’t stop it now, we won’t stop it ever.

    The time to stop it with military force, really, is at the beginning. What you can call the Begin plan for the control of nuclear weapons. That is the only plan that has any prospect of working.

    Israel did it with Iraq in 1981 and with Syria in 2007. In 2007 they didn’t announce it, because they thought if they just did it quietly, Assad would be less likely to react. In reality it was just plain deterrence, which, contrary to theory is not naturally balanced. If Syria was deterred from starting a war with Israel before the bombing, it would be, and was, deterred afterwards, as well.

    More precedent: In 2003 the United States also did an attack on Iraq, although in that case, the WMD programs were dormant. Saddam Hussein, however, did his best to convince Bush and Rumsfeld that he had chemical weapons, because he thought that would deter an attack.

    U.S. soldiers were given chemical weapon protection gear, and it was thought that would make an attack impossible after the beginning of April, 2003.

    And maybe Bush wouldn’t want to maintain an army there for anither hals a year In any case that bought Saddam Hussein more time. Saddam Hussein thought Bush’s stated reasons were not his real reasons for wanting to invade Iraq and were maybe close to the opposite of his reasons. He thought
    Bush would surely invade if he didn’t have WMDs. Saddam was trying to convince other countries that he did not have WMDs but not the United States.

    He thought the real reasons were perhaps because Bush hated him and his regime, or thought that his father had made a moral mistake in 1991, and/or wanted revenge because he hd tried to kill his father, so if Bush found it too hard to do he would give up.

    Now Bush was waiting until the last minute, to prove to everyone how much he didn’t want war, and Saddam Hussein knew that Bush’s plan involved the co-operation of Turkey – and then he had the (probably bribed) Turkish Parliament pull the rug out from under the United States and withdraw opermission to attack from Turkey.

    And then Bush went ahead anyway because the involvement of Turkey was really more for political than military reasons.

    That’s the way I see it.

    Sammy Finkelman (db3b66)

  89. And so, 20 or 30 years from now, we have 43 nuclear weapons states and the hope of deterrence (or even knowing who your attacker is) is lost.

    I think we’re getting there already, and this is the Chinese hope.

    Actually we would know because of isotopic analysis, but there might be a delay, whichmight be fatal to deterrence, because any kind of retaliation would probably be a war crime.

    And then we have the last war, one of many vs many.

    China probably thinks that, in such circumstances, they can arrange a ceasefire, like with wars against Israel.

    North Korea delenda est

    Kim Jong Un probably believes that’s what we want, and it is worse than useless to try to convince him otherwise. Even if he believed it, he wouldn’t believe we would retain our reluctance if we knew all that he had done, which means a posture of not enting to destroy the North Korean reime is unstable. Kim Jong Un will on;y believe that countries that actively help him do not wnt to destroy him.

    What he might be convinced of, is that we are deterred, for now, but the greater the danger he makes himself, the less tehe deterrence there is. It’s like a hostage standoff when the hostage takers slowly begin to prepare to kill more people.

    Sammy Finkelman (db3b66)

  90. Postponing war until there is no alternative may be the worst possible policy.

    Sammy Finkelman (db3b66)

  91. if we’re not going to do anything we should pull our hapless tatters off that godforsaken peninsula and walk away

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  92. That spencer’throw them through a plate glass’ ackerman. One if those who provoked the blame kerfluffle, the Novak column was a response. He wee subsequently the recipient of a link from iris that compromised operation crevice that would have lead to to 7/7

    narciso (d1f714)

  93. Sammy,

    Kim is operating under a delusion — that obtaining nuclear weapons by the path he did — cheating on the most important and effective treaty ever signed by most of the countries of the world — is going to improve his state’s security.

    Of course, if he can turn that delusion into fact there will be 10 more countries with nuclear weapons by 2020. And that way lies danger.

    As for determining an attacker by isotope analysis, if many countries have weapons they’ll be traded like jet planes are now. And, oops, I guess that one got stolen by terrorists. Too bad for San Diego. All we know is it came from somewhere in the Muslim Consortium, or maybe Brazil.

    Kevin M (752a26)

  94. Qaddafi’s Libya did get rid of all of its nuclear weapons

    Qaddafi’s Libya did get rid of all of its yellowcake. They were a good decade from nuclear weapons. Their mistake was not being paranoid enough to think that the US would attack them irrationally, only to wind up with a total mess and a dead ambassador.

    Kevin M (752a26)

  95. North Korea comfortable as a subject for y’all? Nice…

    Ben burn (762dec)

  96. Remember when American presidents didn’t put the ass in General Assembly? It was only last fall. Hell, even President Beavis made his scariest speeches at other venues and he put the dip in diplomatic.

    Ben burn (762dec)

  97. Postponing war until there is no alternative may be the worst possible policy.

    And yet, this is what we have done. Bill Clinton was prepared to go to war with North Korea in the 90’s when their plutonium diversion was discovered. But Jimmy Carter went to NK and brought back a pocketful of promises. And Clinton was unable to act.

    When North Korea’s uranium program was discovered in 2003, W had his hands full in Afghanistan and Iraq, and when they tested a bomb in 2006, he had no political capital left to use, and was unable to act.

    President Feckless also did nothing as North Korea tested bomb after bomb and missile after missile. He probably could have acted, but did not. Probably for the best, given the incompetence shown in Libya.

    So, now, here we are with the Norks having a 150KT bomb, enough to wreck Seoul or maybe Tokyo. Unlikely they have many, today. But it really is the last chance to act. Will we? I sure hope that material has been streaming to the East for months.

    Kevin M (752a26)

  98. Korea has a mini Fat Boy?

    They has misills?

    Oh noes….

    Ben burn (762dec)

  99. North Korea comfortable as a subject for y’all? Nice…

    Sticking your head in the sand and hoping it will go away comfortable for you? Stupid…

    Kevin M (752a26)

  100. Go away troll.

    Kevin M (752a26)

  101. Kevin: NOT comfortable with Trump Tower as world’s largest washing machine?

    Ben burn (762dec)

  102. Can anyone dispute Trumps speech was Westphalian?

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Westphalian_sovereignty

    Ben burn (762dec)

  103. Really Kevin, in the fall of 94, Clinton was,focused on that scourge of humanity Raul cedras,

    narciso (f787e5)

  104. Better to light a candle than to curse the darkness, Kevin. Beldar’s Excellent Prismatic Troll-Blocking Script Tutorial.

    nk (dbc370)

  105. Vision is tiresome until he consumes the idocaine

    narciso (f787e5)

  106. yellowcake’s such a great word

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  107. i can’t remember where i clicked on this from but it’s a very good overview of where we stand with the investigation into the corrupt FBI

    The spying ramped up after Trump’s win when the results could no longer be used to engineer a Hillary victory, but would instead have to be used to cripple and bring down President Trump. Headed out the door, Rice was still unmasking the names of Trump’s people while Obama was making it easier to pass around raw eavesdropped data to other agencies.

    people need to remember the bolded part cause it’s the enduring tip-off about how all this Russia silliness is just squirrel!

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  108. There are some important issues to this story that are coming from other news outlets.

    Fox’s Ed Henry reported yesterday that the Judge(s) of he FISA court who authorized the new 2016 FISA wiretap on Manafort are upset that — apparently — part of the basis for their approval was information taken from the FBI dossier prepared by the former MI6 agent, which we now know was commissioned and paid for initially by Trump GOP opponents, and later by Dem supporters of Clinton.

    Reading between the lines, and looking at the timing, the dossier came into the possession of the FBI in October through John McCain and a couple other sources, and my guess is that the FBI had not been able to verify much of what was in the dossier. But if given the time crunch with the election approaching, they went to the FISA Court for a warrant and used the dossier information without lots of caveats and provisos about its provenance, and warranted its credibility based on the historical work of the MI6 agent, then the entirety of the investigation of Manafort beginning in Oct 2016 is called into question.

    The reporting is that the 2014 FISA wiretap of Manafort was based on the work his company and other US companies did for the Pro-Russian party in Ukraine during the elections in 2014. That FISA was shutdown by prosecutors in early 2016 based on the conclusion that there was insufficient evidence to warrant continuing it. The question under investigation was whether Manafort was acting as an “agent for a foreign power”, so in early 2016 the answer from DOJ would have been “No.”

    If the only change in the fall of 2016 was the Trump dossier from the MI6 guy, that explains a lot with respect to the FBI STILL being unwilling to answer questions about whether they paid to obtain it — which is something that would impact the credibility of the dossier and should have been disclosed in the FISA warrant application — and what use the FBI made of the dossier, including but not limited to whether it was part of the FISA warrant application.

    Also, given that Manafort’s attorneys have now asked DOJ to release transcripts of whatever intercepts the have with Manafort speaking to foreigners, and demanding a DOJ IG investigation into the leaks, I would not be surprised if it was Manafort’s side who gave this information to the NYT and CNN. Part of the reporting is that Manafort has been threatened with indictment. The reporting strikes me in some ways as trying to put out into the public the idea that Mueller is a bit out of control, and using “Gestapo”-like tactics to pressure Manafort and people around him.

    shipwreckedcrew (56b591)

  109. Thanks for the link nk, I’d been trying to find that for a while.

    And *presto* S/N up by 20dB.

    Kevin M (752a26)

  110. Thank you for the opportunity to use a Jack Vance reference. 😉

    nk (dbc370)

  111. the FBI dossier prepared by the former MI6 agent, which we now know was commissioned and paid for initially by Trump GOP opponents

    – which one?

    urbanleftbehind (5eecdb)

  112. i bet it was pervy old Mitt Romney

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  113. 104. Kevin M (752a26) — 9/20/2017 @ 7:10 am

    Kim is operating under a delusion — that obtaining nuclear weapons by the path he did — cheating on the most important and effective treaty ever signed by most of the countries of the world — is going to improve his state’s security.

    I don’t think he’s operating under that delusion. He knows he is pretty secure just from the ability to wage conventional war and lob artillery into Seoul etc.. North Korea has been left undistrubed now for almost 65 years. There is no reason for him to expect that to change, unless…

    What Kim is looking for is security in case he decides to attack South Korea.

    His assumption may be that what’s in place is not enough to defend against a surprise North Korean attack. It wasn’t in 1950. The U.S. forces are supposed to be a “tripwire.” Now that actually may be wrong, and South Korea has a good enough military to defend itself, and the North Korean military may be hollow shell. But, if so, Kim doesn’t know that.

    I think his military plan is to drop aromic boms on U.S. bases and on airports in Guam and Japan to prevent reinforcements from being sent, because he thinks, perhaps correctly, that the United States will not expose its soldiers to radioactivity.

    Now to deter the United States from using nuclear weapons in such a scenario, he may think he needs also to be able to strike the continental United States.

    Anyway I don’t think any of this nuclear weapons and missile program is designed to enhance his security (if the status quo remains)

    It’s designed to make possible an assault on and the conquest of South Korea. He may even think he may be able to get the United States to give him South Korea as a gift, in return for avoiding war, and for not using atomic bombs on Guam and Japan.

    Now one thing that spoils that scenario is missile defense. Which, by the way, note, China opposes.

    Sammy Finkelman (db3b66)

  114. Of course, if he can turn that delusion into fact there will be 10 more countries with nuclear weapons by 2020. And that way lies danger.

    Merely possessing nuclear weapons is nothing. It’s not the nuclear proliefration treaty that stops other nations from getting nucear weapons, but the idea that it would not be in their self-interest.

    The delusion you describe is that obtaining nuclear weapons is going to improve his state’s security. If he merely develops them you can’t prove that it helps if nothing happens.

    Using one or two is what he wants.

    That’s where the danger comes from. I thinnk he truly probably believes he can get away with using one or two on hostile territory, and then quickly get a ceasefire if it backfires on him. He’s probably being told that this can happen by foreign militay advisers, probably acting on the instructions of their government although they could also be working just for themselves or a faction.

    Sammy Finkelman (db3b66)

  115. The article linked at 117 makes worthwhile points along the lines of my comments at 120.

    The press doesn’t quite yet understand the distinctions between a FISA warrant and a T-III criminal wiretap — the different reason for getting each, and the limits on how one can be used in the arena of the other.

    As noted in the article, it’s not surprising that Manafort was subject to a FISA intercept warrant given his 15 years of work in the Ukraine, and the fact that in 2014 there was a violent clash between the Pro-Russian and Pro-Ukraine political forces in opposition to each other. Its been well publicized that Manafort’s company provided PR advice to the Pro-Russian side — which was supported by Putin’s Russian government.

    The fact that prosecutors shut that FISA down in early 2016 was likely because it had quit generating any useful intelligence — meaning Manafort wasn’t talking to anyone about anything of interest to the FISA investigators and prosecutors.

    So the big question not yet known is what prompted the FBI to go back to the FISA court in the fall of 2016 to get another warrant on Manafort. By the time they did so he had already left the Trump campaign. So was it something they found in the Trump dossier?? If so, now you know why there has been so much effort put into trying to maintain the credibility of the dossier.

    shipwreckedcrew (56b591)

  116. 123 — its never been officially identified as which GOP opponent got the ball rolling. But it has been reported that Fusion GPS was originally commissioned to do oppo research on Trump by one of the GOP primary challengers.

    Jeb Bush would be my guess.

    When he dropped out, someone leaked to the Dems that the work was underway, and they started paying Fusion GPS to finish the project.

    shipwreckedcrew (56b591)

  117. The panicked NK war drums have been beaten up for decades and all they want is an Iran deal. Better bomb them before that happens..

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gulf_of_Tonkin_incident

    Ben burn (762dec)

  118. Who blew the whistle on the pizza pedophile ring (clinton/podesta)?

    Bet it’s the same maroons.

    Ben burn (762dec)

  119. When he dropped out, someone leaked to the Dems that the work was underway, and they started paying Fusion GPS to finish the project.

    Jeb would have leaked the pee pee and anything else he could have

    he was desperate it was hilarious

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  120. As for determining an attacker by isotope analysis, if many countries have weapons they’ll be traded like jet planes are now.

    Sooner than you think, although probably not by 2020. 2025 maybe. In fact probably North Korea may be tyhe precise plan of teh Axis of Evil. North Korea may be planning to sell a bomb to Iran and for Iran planning to buy one and use one. How anyone can discount this possibility, I don’t see. Iran may have given up nothing.

    But we’ll still know who manufactured it – whose plutonium or uranium it was, and more.

    I guess the question then will be should the government of Iran or the government of North Korea be the one to fall or both.

    And, oops, I guess that one got stolen by terrorists. </blockquote< Even more plausible deniability.
    Too bad for San Diego.

    No, they’ll try it on Tel Aviv first. Or maybe some rebellious city in Iran, if that happens. Come to think of it,

    Use in a civil war presents the best possibility of breaking the nuclear taboo safely.

    All we know is it came from somewhere in the Muslim Consortium, or maybe Brazil.

    Only if it gets smuggled in. I mean we’ll know where it came from. And we’ll aLsO know it was a North Korean product.

    North Korea maybe could sell it to Venezuela – well, since Venezuela has no money, really Iran. I don’t know if Iran would want to risk doing that.

    But things would get more dangerous every decade.

    Sammy Finkelman (db3b66)

  121. ultimately, the investigation is looking for transfers of money from Russia to the United States, each one, if proved, a felony offence.

    A lawyer- outside the Department of Justice but familiar with the case – told me that three of Mr Trump’s associates were the subject of the inquiry. “But it’s clear this is about Trump,” he said.
    https://patribotics.blog

    Ben burn (762dec)

  122. A GMO that causes every vegetable to produce gluten would be the ideal biological weapon for an attack on the West Coast, but I don’t think that would be within North Korea’s capabilities. China’s maybe?

    nk (dbc370)

  123. shipwreckedcrew (56b591) — 9/20/2017 @ 8:26 am

    the FBI dossier prepared by the former MI6 agent, which we now know was commissioned and paid for initially by Trump GOP opponents, and later by Dem supporters of Clinton.

    No, Fusion GPS was first hired by someone (or several people) we are told, who was an anti-Trump Republican, but who was more likely a Clinton Republican, whose cover would have been blown had he continued after June. But the hiring of Christopher Steele to dig up dirt from the Russians about Trump came later after someone else took over the account. This was undoubtably an expenditure secretly and illegally co-ordinated with someone connected to Bill and/or Hillary Clinton.

    Steele had real Russian sources. The reason he was given this disinformsation was because Putin thought he was still working for MI-6, or at least someone important in the Conservative Party. Taht he was working for Americans was a secret kept from the Russians.

    Later the FBI even planned to pay Steele (after the election)

    Reading between the lines, and looking at the timing, the dossier came into the possession of the FBI in October through John McCain

    No, that’s wrong. When McCain gave it to Comey, Comey already had had it for around three months.

    and a couple other sources, and my guess is that the FBI had not been able to verify much of what was in the dossier.

    Even worse. They had probably proven some of it untrue, especially in detail. The disinformation included some provably wrong facts in order to prevent it from backfiring.

    But if given the time crunch with the election approaching, they went to the FISA Court for a warrant and used the dossier information without lots of caveats and provisos about its provenance, and warranted its credibility based on the historical work of the MI6 agent,

    Louise Mennsh mentions several applications to a FICA court.

    then the entirety of the investigation of Manafort beginning in Oct 2016 is called into question.

    No, Manafort was really a separate investigation, I think. His name came up as someone who some Russians thought would act as an agent – because that’s exactly what they hoped he would be. I don’t think anyone informed Manafort exactly. He was more of a useful idiot (albeit maybe perhaps paid from time to time.)

    The big question is: Who suggested to Trump, or to someone close to Trump, that Mike Flynn and Paul Manafort be hired? I think there was an attempt to penetrate the Trump campaign, and, hopefully for Russia, a future Trump Administration. I don’t think Trump likes the implication.

    The reporting is that the 2014 FISA wiretap of Manafort was based on the work his company and other US companies did for the Pro-Russian party in Ukraine during the elections in 2014. The source of the money to pay him.

    That FISA was shut down by prosecutors in early 2016 based on the conclusion that there was insufficient evidence to warrant continuing it. The question under investigation was whether Manafort was acting as an “agent for a foreign power”, so in early 2016 the answer from DOJ would have been “No.” The kind of agent who needed to register. He was of course a foreign agent, or had been, for the Ukrainian Party of reasons, but operated in Ukraine. There was also the question of whether he knew he was getting laundered money. But anyway he had stopped working for them because they weren’t in power any more. And that was a counter-intelligence, not a criminal, investigation

    If the only change in the fall of 2016 was the Trump dossier from the MI6 guy,

    No I think the second time it came from Russians describing him as an agent who could influence Trump, maybe in passing.

    that explains a lot with respect to the FBI STILL being unwilling to answer questions about whether they paid to obtain it — which is something that would impact the credibility of the dossier and should have been disclosed in the FISA warrant application — and what use the FBI made of the dossier, including but not limited to whether it was part of the FISA warrant application.

    I think the dossier was used for a different FISA application but maybe it’s true, the Manafort one as well.

    Also, given that Manafort’s attorneys have now asked DOJ to release transcripts of whatever intercepts the have with Manafort speaking to foreigners, and demanding a DOJ IG investigation into the leaks, I would not be surprised if it was Manafort’s side who gave this information to the NYT and CNN.

    What – he wants an invetigation into his own leaks? AND HOW WOULD HE KNOW ABOUT THE FISA WARRANTS ANYWAY?

    Sammy Finkelman (db3b66)

  124. 130. The pizza pedophile ring is Russian disinformation. By that time they had mostly given up on electing Trump, but wanted peopel to hate Hillary some more, and for Democrats to think Trump supporters were idiots.

    Sammy Finkelman (db3b66)

  125. Kevin M @108. What – you think Jimmy Carter went to North Korea independently and not on Bill Clinton’s instructions? He solved a political problem for Clinton.

    Sammy Finkelman (db3b66)

  126. R.I.P. Jake LaMotta, the “Raging Bull”

    Icy (c8fe66)

  127. anti-Trump Republican, but who was more likely a Clinton Republican

    sleazy war hero torture victim John McCain fits the bill and this would explain his later role in the pee pee dossier saga

    The court document confirms that Wood, Steele and former State Department official David Kramer decided together that new information gathered after the election should be shared with authorities in Britain and the United States.

    […]

    Kramer, a former State Department official who until recently served as a senior director at Arizona State University’s McCain Institute for International Leadership, declined comment.

    Kramer’s the lil puppy dog poop-stain mccain sent to fetch his dossier.

    McCain’s way more all up in this than he’s willing to acknowledge. Remember how he gave fbi turdboy Jimmy Comey all that hot sweet lovin?

    And the sleazy corrupt McCain Institute could very well have cut the first checks to Fusion GPS.

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  128. @71.I wish Dick Cheney could be persuaded to take benburned out hunting. Is there a season on D-bags?

    =Haiku!= Gesundheit!

    Wish Lindsey Graham could be persuaded to take the Colon-elle out camping. Is there a sale on sleeping bags?

    “Ohhhh, sweet mystery of life at last I’ve found you! At last, I know the secret of it all!” – Elizabeth Lavenza [Madeline Kahn] ‘Young Frankenstein’ 1974

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  129. 136..

    Boy! Are you wrong.

    Ben burn (762dec)

  130. I think this is a little chewing of crow

    https://www.wsj.com/articles/all-mr-comeys-wiretaps-1505862793

    narciso (d1f714)

  131. Nobody wants our intel agencies to be used like the Stasi in East Germany; the secret police spying on its own citizens for political purposes.

    this is clearly not true

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  132. it’s instructive who doesn’t get the scrutiny, the san Bernardino cell, the Orlando cell, the one in Columbus,

    narciso (d1f714)

  133. the safest people in america are the wives of muslim terrorists

    nothing can touch them

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  134. 148. If so, and probably not so, not the happiest.

    Sammy Finkelman (db3b66)

  135. Why Obama Really Spied on Trump – to protect himself.

    Obama Inc. compartmentalized its espionage operation in individual acts of surveillance and unmasking, and general policies implemented to aid both, that may have been individually legal, in the purely technical sense, in order to commit the major crime of eavesdropping on the political opposition.

    When the individual acts of surveillance are described as legal, that’s irrelevant. It’s the collective pattern of surveillance of the political opposition that exposes the criminal motive for them.

    If Obama spied on two of Trump’s campaign leaders, that’s not a coincidence. It’s a pattern.

    The same reason the institutional players will do whatever it takes to protect themselves and their organizational prerogatives.

    crazy (d99a88)

  136. I don’t think he’s operating under that delusion. He knows he is pretty secure just from the ability to wage conventional war and lob artillery into Seoul etc.. North Korea has been left undistrubed now for almost 65 years. There is no reason for him to expect that to change, unless…

    I said “improve.” Developing nuclear weapons may make him immune (it will if nothing is done before he has the ability to destroy half the USA), but right now it has placed him in an existential trap. If the US is actually willing to go to war over this, his quest has brought ruin, not security.

    No, I guess that he could pinkie-promise to get rid of his weapons and dismantle his industrial capacity for making them, but that would be the 3rd or 4th time he’d be making that promise and we’d have to be pretty stupid (or desperate) to accept his word. And I don’t think Kim would accept the kind of inspection regime (say, an army division) that would be required to insure the disarmament.

    I really do not see a way out of this that does not require war. Either now, and win, or 30 years from now and everybody loses.

    Kevin M (752a26)

  137. As for giving him security if he were to attack South Korea conventionally, well, we can beat Kim conventionally any time we want. We rolled up the Norks PDQ in 1950l it was a million Chinese that were the problem.

    Hell on the South Koreans though.

    Kevin M (752a26)

  138. But things would get more dangerous every decade.

    John Varley has imagined this failure mode several different ways. None are good.

    Kevin M (752a26)

  139. I will enjoy all this prosecutorial overreach when one of Trump’s guys is at the helm and it turns out all you need to no-knock a dude and pat down his wife is a vague connection to a foreign country, an association with someone you hate politically, and some low-effort NCIS-level spy erotica.

    Dysphoria Sam (7a6db4)

  140. Well, until Trump appoints people to the DoJ’s many open positions (now filled by Obama holdovers), we’ll never know.

    Kevin M (752a26)

  141. Reason Number 2 why I wouldn’t have minded Merrick Garland. (Reason Number 1 being that to get Gorsuch we had to take Trump too.) Trump and Sessions are going to let the cops do whatever they want and the robes will now be our first line of defense, God help us.

    nk (dbc370)

  142. @ nk (#156): Gorsuch replaced Scalia, who was normally a “conservative” vote but was a fierce constitutional libertarian on issues like the right to jury trial. I don’t think he’ll create a major change compared to what would have resulted if Scalia had lived another few years, but time will tell. You’re surely right that nothing resembling respect for, or understanding of, the Rule of Law can be found behind Trump’s dyed blonde eyebrows.

    Beldar (fa637a)

  143. Garland was never, ever a serious candidate anyway, based solely on his age and already-existing life tenure as chief of the most consequential court of appeals. He was never more than a stalking horse for Obama & the DNC to beat the GOP about the head and shoulders with. I credit him with intellectual honesty, and probably more common sense than Ginsberg, but no more than Breyer on his best days. He’d have been an older, duller Kagan probably.

    Beldar (fa637a)

  144. *Ginsburg. Apologies, any SCOTUS Justice deserves for me to spell her name right, but I can’t seem to remember this one.

    Beldar (fa637a)

  145. @ Kevin M (#151), who wrote, re the Norks:

    I really do not see a way out of this that does not require war.

    This has been my sad conclusion since we failed to turn up significant amounts of WMDs in Iraq after the fall of Saddam, after which Dubya’s remaining political capital (at a zero balance after Florida 2000, but substantially enhanced post 9/11) dropped back to a zero balance. That effectively ended any prospect of him doing anything serious to stop or even deter the Norks; nothing short of war would have worked then either, in all likelihood. And of course there was never, ever, for a nanosecond any possibility that Obama would do anything except the most obvious of hollow pretenses.

    Lives will be lost, and there will be a military exchange. The open questions remain when, where, how many, and with what consequences.

    Beldar (fa637a)

  146. You’re right about Scalia, Beldar. He was also the staunchest on Fourth Amendment protection of the home.

    nk (dbc370)

  147. If Trump were smart (heh; sorry for the unlikely counterfactural), he’d have ex-Kennedy clerks weekly visiting their old boss, solicitously enquiring who among the remaining list of 20 would be most pleasing to Kennedy as a successor for his seat0, and promising that Trump was merely waiting for the crook of a finger to appoint Kennedy’s favorite (or someone among his top five, anyway) upon Kennedy’s retirement announcement ASAP, while the GOP still controls the Senate and McConnell could pound the nominee through regardless.

    Beldar (fa637a)

  148. Of the Dem appointees, I won’t be surprised if Madame Justice Ginsburg outlasts Mister Justice Breyer, and of course Kagan and Her Imperial Hispanic Majesty are young yet. Thomas will go out in a pine box, with trumpet fanfares if I have to drive to Washington to play them myself.

    Beldar (fa637a)

  149. I know the daily mail had its own hiccup about it:
    https://mobile.twitter.com/Uncle_Jimbo/status/910586047939141634?p=v

    narciso (d1f714)

  150. watched cpan today and the dems were grilling a lady judge from Colorado. Was glad to see Orin Hatch ask pertinent questions and let her give answers. Hope she is confirmed.
    Love Justice Thomas

    mg (21de20)

  151. @Beldar:Thomas will go out in a pine box, with trumpet fanfares if I have to drive to Washington to play them myself.

    No. He will be drawn up to Heaven in a fiery chariot.

    Frederick (626da3)

  152. @154

    vague connection to a foreign country

    You know Manafort is registered as a foreign agent, right? Would your really categorize this as a “vague connection”?

    Davethulhu (3a2442)

  153. We like to believe, in this country, that we have rights. On the contrary, we have the right to petition the system that wrongs us in certain specified ways, after great time and expense, to partially redress the wrong at taxpayer charge, generally too late to make much difference, and only if it is graciously pleased to do so. While it is certainly better than what most of humanity has had (and still has) to deal with, I would prefer that government be limited in its power to inflict wrongs in the first place. I have always felt that of the Justices who have served in my lifetime, Thomas understands this the best.

    Frederick (626da3)

  154. @ Frederick (#169): I’d play for the chariot, if they couldn’t find anyone whose lip was in better shape.

    Beldar (fa637a)

  155. swc 127:

    So the big question not yet known is what prompted the FBI to go back to the FISA court in the fall of 2016 to get another warrant on Manafort. By the time they did so he had already left the Trump campaign.

    Manafort became campaign chairman in June 2016 and resigned in mid-August 2016. Since it appears he was no longer involved in the campaign when the FISA warrant was renewed, doesn’t it seem more likely that Manafort had reached out to his old clients — foreign entities and governments — to work for them again?

    Manafort has expensive tastes and would want to earn money. He has a history of working in Russia, Ukraine, etc., so that is where he would go. It could certainly be that who he contacted seemed like a political gift to the Democrats and the Obama Administration began an investigation to capitalize on that. But it could also be that who he contacted raised concerns among government officials for non-political, national security reasons.

    DRJ (d35869)

  156. Fire Tillerson and put Haley in his spot.
    He is more concerned with oil than Americans.

    mg (21de20)

  157. Actually he want, neither podesta working for sberbank, but he didn’t get a battering ram, neither did edelman of mercury, or Von weberm

    narciso (d1f714)

  158. He is more concerned with oil than Americans.

    Oh for sure.

    But Rexy Tillerboobs and sleazy anti-semitic US Army general HR McMaster’s number one priority is preserving obama’s Israel-genocide deal with Iran.

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  159. That’s Steve Schmidt’s shop,

    http://politico.com/story/2017/04/28/paul-manafort-ukraine-lobbying-237764

    Exxon even mote than bechtel did show keen attention to oil interests, like Schultz and weinberger

    narciso (d1f714)

  160. It’s looking. like America had its own version of the STASI right here at home. Surely nothing to worry our little minds over…

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  161. Brennanclapperpowerriceholderobamalynch tarfeatheredtorched

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  162. remember what happened to Alberto Gonzales and then reflect on how filthy lying ex-military obama-pig James Clapper is treated by the CNN Jake Tapper fake news propaganda sluts

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  163. Yes and Mueller and comey were in on that, Gonzalez still hasn’t figured it out.

    narciso (d1f714)

  164. I wonder ….

    If Mueller has a Hail Mary pass in reserve. Should his investigation look like it’s producing nothing real, which so far it hasn’t, he makes himself obnoxious enough for Trump to fire him. Then the talk starts about obstruction of justice a la Comey’s firing. Not enough for legal action, but good enough for politics?

    nk (dbc370)

  165. As a taxpayer for many years – I want people tried, convicted, sentenced and sent to the pennitentiary. Then abused by their fellow criminals.

    mg (21de20)

  166. 182, the trouble with that political strategy of appointee martyrdom is it starts to hit the wall of diminishing returns, particularly if Trump is able to peel off hard-opposition groups one by one through sausage-making. However if he does head down that path, its possible the loudest voices in the removal choir switch from the usual left-liberal suspects to the “base”.

    urbanleftbehind (5eecdb)

  167. Attorney General Rod Rosenstein will facilitate whatever corrupt fbi turdboy Mueller wants to do

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  168. …then, Happy, their has to be a tolerable level of flunky/confidante to flush. Loyalty to this one, except for his sainted Joe Arpaio, is a one-way street.

    urbanleftbehind (5eecdb)

  169. I read where Kimmel the grand dragon of hollywood antifa threatened to pound Foxe’s Brian of the curvy couch.
    Get Don King to promote the fight.

    mg (21de20)

  170. Ha e we seen rosenstein, sent out a search party, funny how comes bogus memo scam works

    narciso (d1f714)

  171. …only if its a warm-up to Kimmel v. Carlson; isnt Kilmeade on Team Shep?

    urbanleftbehind (5eecdb)

  172. Its unclear how the midetators feel about this.

    narciso (d1f714)

  173. How many admirable qualities does the genius possess?

    https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/donald-trump/where-did-trump-s-use-rocket-man-come-n802681

    Ben burn (b3d5ab)

  174. It’s a game to the horrible Deplorables.

    “The provision attracted widespread attention on Wednesday after late-night host Jimmy Kimmel blasted Sen. Bill Cassidy (R-La.), a lead author of the legislation. Kimmel said the senator is violating the “Jimmy Kimmel test,” which Cassidy coined as a way of saying that no one should be denied care because they can’t afford it.

    “This guy Bill Cassidy just lied right to my face,” Kimmel said.”
    http://thehill.com/policy/healthcare/351628-gop-takes-fire-on-pre-existing-conditions

    Ben burn (b3d5ab)

  175. “It’s the trick Republicans have been trying to play all along—claim that you’re protecting people with pre-existing conditions because insurance companies can’t say directly “we will not insure you,” but let the insurance companies charge people with pre-existing conditions so much that no one could afford coverage. We’re not denying you insurance, we’re just charging you

    $100,000 a year! Your pre-existing condition is totes covered! What a “great Bill.”

    https://m.dailykos.com/stories/1700297

    Ben burn (b3d5ab)

  176. Everyone who can’t afford health insurance shouldn’t have to worry about it.

    That’s Freedumb.

    Ben burn (b3d5ab)

  177. Kimmell got it all wrong on Tuesday, Cassidy complained to reporters, “I’m sorry [Kimmel] does not understand.” Kimmell fired back:

    “Oh, I get it. I don’t understand because I’m a talk-show host, right? Well then, help me out. Which part don’t I understand? Is it the part where you cut $243 billion from federal health-care assistance? Am I not understanding the part where states would be allowed to let insurance companies price you out of coverage for having pre-existing conditions? Maybe I’m not understanding the part of your bill in which federal funding disappears completely after 2026? Or maybe it was the part where the plans are no longer required to pay for essential health benefits, like maternity care or pediatric visits?”

    Ben burn (b3d5ab)

  178. Kinda hope they hammer that last coffin nail for the walking dead Party.

    https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.vox.com/platform/amp/policy-and-politics/2017/9/18/16328364/cassidy-graham-senate-whip-count

    Ben burn (b3d5ab)

  179. i hope they pass graham cassidy just for to shove it up jimmy kimmel’s ass

    this would amuse me and i would enjoy it a lot

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  180. He’s just painting republicans their favorite color…whitewash on tombstone.

    Ben burn (b3d5ab)

  181. Matthew 23:27

    Ben burn (b3d5ab)

  182. i like hunter green

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  183. Where is the special counsel in investigating Mueller? wtf Sessions you deep state flunky.

    mg (31009b)

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