Patterico's Pontifications

9/12/2017

National Debt Passes $20 Trillion

Filed under: General — Patterico @ 7:48 am

Only a few dinosaurs like me care about this. We want to avoid saddling our children with a crushing tax burden. But our time is past. The competing factions now consist of President Trump, who doesn’t give a crap about the debt, and the establishment GOP, which doesn’t give a crap about the debt.

Fans of one side will pretend to care as a way to blame the other, and vice versa. The comments to this post will be filled with that sort of talk. But that’s the standard partisan horse excrement, which is all anyone really cares about. Very few actually care about the issue as an issue. Most people will just cite the debt as a club to whack people they don’t like. Give them a chance to actually do something about it and they wouldn’t lift a finger.

Someone like me is a man without a party. The very few of you who actually truly care about this are men and women without a party as well.

[Cross-posted at The Jury Talks Back.]

174 Responses to “National Debt Passes $20 Trillion”

  1. BORING where are the threads about Trump

    Patterico (115b1f)

  2. Someone like me is a man without a party.

    I am like you, P. We need to stop these obstinate Continuing resolutions. Go back to funding each dept. one by one. Surely we have the votes for that, but the will?

    felipe (b5e0f4)

  3. this are driven by entitlements and interest on the debt

    food stamp kicked the can on both of this for the one-eight years he was food stampin’ proud

    the trashy-assed poop-lick paul congress got so distracted by pretending to want to repeal obamacare they took their eye off the ball i think

    this can be put in the “ancillary costs of obamacare” column i think

    so if you know who’s managing that spreadsheet you should have them update it accordingly

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  4. the trashy-assed poop-lick paul congress got so distracted by pretending to want to repeal obamacare they took their eye off the ball i think

    Thesis of post confirmed. Hack commenter blames Ryan (who deserves blame), implicitly suggests Trump cares about this (patently false).

    Nobody cares about it in Washington D.C. Except maybe Mike Lee.

    Patterico (115b1f)

  5. I’m with you, Patterico. I am very depressed about all this.

    Simon Jester (c8876d)

  6. Mike Lee? As in Clinton during the 90s?

    It does take a Democratic administration to deal with Deficit.

    Ben burn (e69b56)

  7. no i replied gently to Mr. felipe to suggest that the CR process is not driving this it’s entitlements and debt interest

    then i said Obama got an 8 year pass on dealing with this

    then i said Congress dithered

    Trump clearly wants to ramp up economic growth and break out of the food stamp/associated press “new normal” framing

    that’s not unrelated here, and he’s made a lot of great steps towards this goal in his short tenure in office so far

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  8. Ryan also deserves the blame for this travesty:

    Speaker Paul Ryan will not allow Congressional action on national concealed carry reciprocity to move bills forward, Rep. Thomas Massie told host Mark Walters Thursday on Armed American Radio. The reason given is Ryan thinks the timing isn’t right to consider H.R. 2909, the D.C. Personal Protection Reciprocity Act, a supplement to state reciprocity provisions of H.R. 38.

    I imagine the *timing will be right* once the leftists control Congress again and we can’t get the bill through. Idiot!

    Rev.Hoagie® (6bbda7)

  9. Nobody cares about it in Washington D.C. Except maybe Mike Lee.

    Don’t forget Trey Gowdy.

    Rev.Hoagie® (6bbda7)

  10. next big step forward *could* be meaningful tax reform

    we just saw how poop-lick paul and sleazy mitch were planning to kick the can on tax reform and play pattycake all month with the freedom filth… to accomplish the CR President Trump knocked out in a mere 24 hours

    so here we are with tax reform on the agenda for the first time in over a decade!

    thank you President Trump

    thank you for all you do

    xxxooo

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  11. If only Republicans had control of Congress, I’m sure they’d stop they continuing resolutions and get the budget under control. But what can they do, with a 4-5 Supreme Court, majorities of both houses, a President not of the opposite party, and a deep bench all the way down to the state Houses?

    Frederick (64d4e1)

  12. Yeh, their hands are tied, Frederick. Just ask Ryan.

    Rev.Hoagie® (6bbda7)

  13. When I stopped being a Democrat, I did not sign on with the Repubs because I realized that in operation they are not too different; they are the Ruling Party.

    The debt is a scandal, a fatal one. I suspect these Republican senators are retiring because they cannot handle the pressures of real governance, like how to stop incurring debt. So much easier to pass it off to the bureaucracy or the president and then have blistering show trials in some Senate hearing room that lead nowhere.

    I have moved on to acceptance from anger and depression though. We have two generations now raised to despise their country and to demand free stuff from richer people. Empires rise and fall. Whether we can save this one depends on the ones left who see clearly the alternatives.

    Patricia (5fc097)

  14. Patricia, as long as the same type of people are “educating” our children America will continue its decline. I remember as a yute traveling in Asia and Europe many of the people there didn’t like Americans. But they did respect us. Now they do neither.

    Rev.Hoagie® (6bbda7)

  15. 200 Trillion in unfunded liabilities and counting.

    NJRob (7f4bec)

  16. A couple things:

    I think the verdict is not yet in on where the Trump admin. will take us on the debt.

    As Reaganites and growth proponents have argued for decades, the easier way to close the budget gap is by growing the economy and narrowing it on the revenue side. Lets see what they produce in the way of tax reform. It looks like Trump’s overall approach to the economy has had a positive effect on growth, although its early still.

    Once you can close down the annual deficit number, then you can start working the debt number backwards. The debt number’s biggest impact on the economy is the payment of interest on outstanding bonds every year. I haven’t followed this particular aspect in a few years, but my recollection is that bond payments as a percentage of GDP has remained relatively constant even as the debt has risen — meaning it hasn’t rise so much as to “crush” the “next generation.” And keep in mind that its hell to get old — we are at least 2 generations removed from Reagan’s move to supply side economics, and the “debt burden” hasn’t crushed anyone yet.

    And as I’ve mentioned before, a huge difference in the government debt created today with bond sales, and the government debt that was created in 1987, and is being paid off today as 30 year bonds matured, is that with current interest rates the cost of borrowing today is about 2/3 cheaper than the cost of borrowing in 1987.

    August 31, 1987 — 30 year bond rate was 9.5%.
    August 31, 2017 — 30 year bond rate is 2.75%

    A $10,000 bond in 1987, with a 30 year maturity, cost gov’t about $1,000 in interest each year.
    The same bond today cost the gov’t about $275 in interest each year.

    Lets say it was a Chinese bank that bought that bond back in 1987. We paid that bank $30,000 in interest over 30 years. When that bond matured, they let us borrow that $10,000 again, and this time we only have to pay them $8,250.

    shipwreckedcrew (56b591)

  17. Inflation, taxation, or default. There are no other options.

    Diffus (4a5ca6)

  18. I know, Rev.Hoagi, sad.

    We actually had a class at Old State U that taught how the American Dream did not exist, was just oppression, blah, blah. Made the kids who grew up under Communism very angry.

    Patricia (5fc097)

  19. Stupid question, but I ask it here because there is generally a decent and informed comments section (no laughing):

    Who actually holds this debt accrued by the US government? Is it mostly other governments, or is it private bondholders, or some other groups that we should be aware of?

    The usual offhand remark about it tends to infer that the biggest group is Chinese creditors. Given the growing appetite for debt in China it would be a curious parallel if a lot of American parties in turn held Chinese debts.

    JP (f1742c)

  20. So what you’re saying, Shipwreckedcrew is we’re still paying China gobs of taxpayer cash jus less than in 1987? Great news.

    Rev.Hoagie® (6bbda7)

  21. I think the largest holder is the Social Security system.

    Rev.Hoagie® (6bbda7)

  22. Who Owns the U.S. National Debt?

    that seems current and fairly well-researched

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  23. this was an interesting development last year – the amount held by the filthy saudi royal perverts who sponsored the 9/11 terrorist attacks on new york city and the pentagon was released for the first time

    And by unveiling the secret — the kingdom owns a surprisingly low $116.8 billion in US debt, making it the 13th-largest holder of Treasurys — Washington waded into a red-hot diplomatic dispute.

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  24. Thanks Hoagie, feets

    JP (f1742c)

  25. That link has great info in it, especially about China and Japan holdings of US debt.

    These holdings are not nearly as much of a problem as folks think, because the internal demographic issues of both countries make them more interested in the stability of the US economy than instability.

    Both have rapidly aging populations because of historically low population growth rates. They need income from outside the country to fund their social safety net needs. China has a HUGE problem in terms of an aging population, and desperately needs the income it receives in the form of US interest payments on its bond holdings. China has what — 4.5x the population of the US, but a GDP of about 60% of the US? Reverse those numbers and ask yourself what kind of pressures would that place on the US economy.

    That’s the reality in China, and with the US as its biggest trading partner, China needs the relationship with the US more than the US needs the relationship with China.

    shipwreckedcrew (56b591)

  26. @shipwreckedcrew: the US as its biggest trading partner, China needs the relationship with the US more than the US needs the relationship with China.

    They send us stuff produced in factories, and we send them promises to pay in 30 years. We’re getting screwed!

    Frederick (64d4e1)

  27. To be fair, the Democrats’ pretend they will take it from “the rich” instead of the kids. And the kids VOTE for them, too.

    We went through this before, starting in the 60’s and ending when Ross Perot put the fear of God into both parties by getting 19% of the vote while clearly crazy. Considering the last few elections, this wouldn’t be that hard to pull off again.

    “Despite” Trump, the electorate is still pissed off at both parties. Maybe Patterico isn’t as alone as he thinks.

    Kevin M (752a26)

  28. If you constructed a Balance Sheet for the US Government, the unfunded liabilities of Social Security and Medicare would dwarf the $20 Trillion Treasury Debt held by the public. So I don’t get too excited about the debt figures because the automatic spending levels built into these 2 entitlement programs are where the action is.

    Solution is simple, but not easy. Gradually increase the age when you first qualify for Medicare from 65 to whatever is required (age 70?) to get spending under control. Same for Social Security. People live longer so they should be in the work force for a longer period of time, and have to wait longer before they can draw on these 2 programs.

    This is simple mathematics which means that there should be bi-partisan support for this. However, the political hacks like Paul Krugman who are completely dishonest so-called economists would howl and scream in opposition to such a sensible solution. I won’t even mention what Schumer, Pelosi, Warren, Sanders, or others would say.

    Let’s see if Trump can strike a grand bargain on spending cuts.

    Tax cuts are for pussies. Real men do spending cuts. I couldn’t give a crap about this so-called tax reform. Go to Johnny Cochrane’s grump economist blog to learn what real tax reform would look like.

    El Gipper (f1f816)

  29. @Kevin M:“Despite” Trump, the electorate is still pissed off at both parties. Maybe Patterico isn’t as alone as he thinks.

    We got Trump because Republicans aren’t offering the electorate palatable alternatives. Patterico is a party of one at the moment because neither the Republicans, nor the electorate, wants he wants. I’m in a party of one for much the same reason, and Patterico don’t form a party of two for various reasons where we differ and I imagine much the same is true for you, who differ from me, Patterico, and the Republicans and the electorate.

    And the Republicans all want different things too, which is why they haven’t delivered anything that they appeared to be promising a year ago.

    There’s not a coherent set of voters all wanting the same things, you see.

    Frederick (64d4e1)

  30. I believe current immigration policy is going to impose a far greater burden on our descendants than current fiscal policy. So why should I care a lot about the national debt?

    James B. Shearer (c8deb5)

  31. Meh! What did posterity ever do for us? We should take care of our old people who made us and built us this great country we live in, and of ourselves. The miserable little snotnoses with their iPhones glued to their grubby little hands and their piercings and tattoos and Starbucks spiced pumpkin lattes with soy milk can go … fend for themselves.

    nk (dbc370)

  32. I couldn’t give a crap about this so-called tax reform.

    tax reform’s largely meant to reform a tax code what’s in large measure responsible for failmerica’s sclerotic growth

    it is so good and noble, this effort to reform the taxes

    it’s empowering

    and an affirmation of human dignity

    President Trump wants to step on the gas and rev America’s economic engine!

    I call shotgun!

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  33. @nk: What did posterity ever do for us? We should take care of our old people who made us and built us this great country we live in, and of ourselves.

    I don’t always get a good read on when you are being ironic, so forgive me if I mistake you.

    The posterity you criticize here is who is going to be taking care of us when we are old–unless they are replaced by large numbers of people who do not share our language and culture and weren’t here to benefit from what we and our elders built, and who are hardly going to be motivated to do the job well or perhaps at all–or machines are going to help do it, either by keeping us independent and active longer or taking care of us instead of people, or both–or we’re not going to get to be around to be old.

    But what older generations got, and are getting, is not on the table. The young people with the characteristics needed to do that do not exist.

    The future belongs to those who live in it. What can you do?

    Frederick (64d4e1)

  34. Way OT with regard to the national debt, but a confirmation of doubts posed several threads ago…http://www.oann.com/red-cross-volunteers-stay-in-high-end-houston-hotel/

    BTW, Frederick, great response to nk.

    urbanleftbehind (5eecdb)

  35. @urbanleftbehind: Well, we could have produced those young people but didn’t, is all I was trying to say. For whatever reason, we didn’t. I suspect the reasons are found here, but I don’t have a Western civilization to run differently and see what else could have happened.

    Frederick (64d4e1)

  36. I was being ironic. I agree with all your points. If the old are going to be carried on the shoulders of the young they should leave them firm ground to stand on.

    nk (dbc370)

  37. @nk: Was thinking today that for most of Western history, at any moment armed strangers could appear, take everything you owned, and you and your family as slaves, if they left you your lives.

    And that in times of peace and order, resisting them would make things worse, since those armed strangers represented the government. And that state of affairs lasted well into the 19th century.

    Honestly I am thinking less about the debt, and less about Kids These Days, and more about if and how to get me and mine ready for days like that again.

    Frederick (64d4e1)

  38. ‘Posterity,’ as always, will take care of itself– and likely have more taxing, if not crushing issues to manage:

    https://www.space.com/1740-asteroid-apophis-dealing-earth-future-troublemaker.html

    And, of course…

    “It’s the size of Texas, Mr President.” – Dan Truman [Billy Bob Thornton] -‘Armageddon’ 1998

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  39. “When Global Network Perspectives asked finance and economics experts from throughout the Global Network for Advanced Management to weigh in on the risks of another crisis, they didn’t question our capacity to mitigate systemic risks. What spooks these experts from a dozen countries is a loss of faith and confidence in leaders and the structures of society. In country after country, the greatest risk of a new crisis comes from politicians’ unpredictable efforts to restore the sense of hope that has been missing for the last decade—which in many cases means undoing good work on financial structures and institutions.”
    http://insights.som.yale.edu/insights/what-will-trigger-the-next-financial-crisis

    The next crisis won’t be survivable.

    Ben burn (e69b56)

  40. “more about if and how to get me and mine ready for days like that again.”

    All it takes is a two-fer disaster like a major quake in the heels of Irma or a domestic attack. Gird Thy loins..

    Ben burn (e69b56)

  41. BORING where are the threads about Trump

    Your wish = my command!

    Trump promised he would eliminate the national debt (all of it) in eight years, without raising taxes or cutting entitlements.

    Uncharacteristically for him, he even told us specifically how he would accomplish this particular miracle: by eliminating the trade deficit with China.

    Sadly, he has done nothing to eliminate the trade deficit with China, or to eliminate the national debt in eight years.

    Just another lie he told because it sounded good to him at the time.

    DT: We’re not a rich country. We’re a debtor nation. We’ve got to get rid of — I talked about bubble. We’ve got to get rid of the $19 trillion in debt.

    BW: How long would that take?

    DT: I think I could do it fairly quickly, because of the fact the numbers . . . .

    BW: What’s fairly quickly?

    DT: Well, I would say over a period of eight years. And I’ll tell you why.

    BW: Would you ever be open to tax increases as part of that, to solve the problem?

    DT: I don’t think I’ll need to. The power is trade. Our deals are so bad.

    BW: That would be $2 trillion a year.

    DT: No, but I’m renegotiating all of our deals, Bob. The big trade deals that we’re doing so badly on. With China, $505 billion this year in trade.

    As Bugs Bunny would say, “Wadda Maroon!”

    Dave (445e97)

  42. There’s no maroon like Ron Burgundy Maroons in a hot air balloon.

    Ben burn (e69b56)

  43. @6 Ben Burn

    Sure. Andrew Jackson. One data point in 230 odd years.

    Pinandpuller (b58f8a)

  44. Bonds can be synonymous with fetters.

    “They’re gonna put y’all back in chains.” Joe Biden

    Pinandpuller (b58f8a)

  45. How quickly I forgot about the origin of stocks.

    Pinandpuller (b58f8a)

  46. Or to put the VP’s quote into Dave Ramsey’s favorite Proverb,”The borrower is a slave to the lender.”

    Pinandpuller (b58f8a)

  47. Pillories and stocks were prematurely disbanded because it was too embarrassing.

    Public embarrassment was the point.

    Ben burn (e69b56)

  48. But some seem immune to embarrassment.

    Some seek embarrassment.

    Some hire publicists to enlarge their embarrassment footprint.

    Ben burn (e69b56)

  49. It’s a genuine conundrum.

    How to deal with Trump, I mean…

    Ben burn (e69b56)

  50. I was amazed to find so many closet Ramsey disciples in my very blue metro area – it seems like good advice except for the dollar amounts discussed. Sadly, the local non-obnoxious conservative radio outlet here replaced Dave Ramsey with a rotation of Larry Elder (not as bad as I thought, tbh) and Jay Sekulow/sons.

    urbanleftbehind (5eecdb)

  51. KenB

    I got twenty trillion thanks for that.

    Ben burn (e69b56)

  52. How many times do the american people have to tell you that you are hurting the country with your austerity. the infrastructure of america needs to be updated not alowed to crumble. I can make a very good case that you lower taxes and stop spending to lower the deficit libertarian conservatives are committing sabotage and probably treason!

    still trumpin (a260f2)

  53. 53.”How many times do the american people have to tell you that you are hurting the country with your austerity. the infrastructure of america needs to be updated not alowed to crumble. I can make a very good case that you lower taxes and stop spending to lower the deficit libertarian conservatives are committing sabotage and probably treason!”

    The song of misdirection. Blame austerity while you burn billions on corruption and indoctrination.

    In CA they are spending billons on everything BUT infrastructure. They had great roads and schools when they had their priorities right. They still spend a huge per student amount on schools, but they don’t give a crap that they aren’t preparing kids to be adults, just good reliable democratic voters and public employees with great defined benefits instead of defined contributions.

    harkin (33654e)

  54. And did I just read an entire post about the national debt that mentions the word “GOP” and “party” but never once mentions the democrats?

    harkin (33654e)

  55. I imagine much the same is true for you, who differ from me, Patterico, and the Republicans and the electorate.

    Well, I would be just ticked pink to have Romney or Ryan or Rubio or maybe even Cruz as President. I guess there’s some Republican in that. I am not conservative in some respects (e.g. don’t give a rat’s petunia about first trimester abortions or gay marriage) and very conservative in others (e.g. I believe in property rights to perhaps a fault). I want government to do as few things as possible, but to do them well.

    I want the leadership to be credible, honest and competent. I have not been offered that lately. My lesser standard (“well, at least don’t screw me over”) is so far satisfied by Trump where it would not have been by Hillary. But it’s been a near-run thing with the medical stuff. Only Trump and Ryan had my side.

    Kevin M (752a26)

  56. And did I just read an entire post about the national debt that mentions the word “GOP” and “party” but never once mentions the democrats?

    Doesn’t even mention Bernie or his ilk, who would make Obama look like a miser.

    Kevin M (752a26)

  57. @17 Diffus

    What about 4. Liquidation of assets?

    Pinandpuller (16b0b5)

  58. @31 nk

    Flip the script: young people on ice floes.

    Pinandpuller (16b0b5)

  59. @35 Frederick

    It’s cheaper to manufacture “those people” in Guatemala.

    Pinandpuller (16b0b5)

  60. @39 Ben Burn

    We manufacture caregivers in foreign markets and financial crises domestically.

    Pinandpuller (16b0b5)

  61. @39 Ben Burn

    Work with me here. Are you saying the next financial crisis is an extinction event or are you predicting a Kevin Costner or Mel Gibson movie scenario?

    Water World, The Postman, Mad Max, Apocalypto etc.

    Pinandpuller (16b0b5)

  62. It’s a dang good thing that the US of A is too big to fail. It is the only thing that is saving our economy.

    One day, our good buddies in the PRC and the Fed may decide we aren’t so big.

    Ed from SFV (3400a5)

  63. 62

    More like William Mumy to Little Bills “You just shot an unarmed man!”

    Muny: ” Well, he shoulda armed himself.”

    Ben burn (e69b56)

  64. @40 Ben Burn

    Thank God high taxes scattered the entertainment industry out to other states besides California. I’d hate for there to be an entertainment shortage on top of all that.


    Flint Sky: Those people in the forest, what did you see on them?
    Jaguar Paw: I do not understand.
    Flint Sky: Fear. Deep rotting fear. They were infected by it. Did you see? Fear is a sickness. It will crawl into the soul of anyone who engages it. It has tainted your peace already. I did not raise you to see you live with fear. Strike it from your heart. Do not bring it into our village. Apocatypto

    Pinandpuller (16b0b5)

  65. @41 Dave

    Just another lie he told because it sounded good to him at the time.

    Who said he wasn’t prepared to be president on day one?

    Pinandpuller (16b0b5)

  66. @50 ULB

    Well, if you pay everything off and come to One Financial Peace Plaza to declare it you can take me out to lunch lol.

    Pinandpuller (16b0b5)

  67. If one subscribes to the Rational Expectations School of Economics, you’ll quickly understand why tax cuts won’t stimulate a damn thing in this economy. It’s the government spending, stupid!

    Economists have run time series regressions on tax rates and GDP, and there’s no correlation, let alone causation, much to the glee of left-wing economists. Why? Well, because if the government has an operating deficit, and if there are huge outstanding future liabilities that will require future taxation to pay for them, then business people incorporate those expectations of the future tax increases into their current investment decisions.

    You cannot look at tax rates divorced from spending levels because spending determines the long-term level of taxation.

    Until Republicans get serious about spending cuts, they’re wasting everyone’s time focusing on tax rates. OK, there are a few good things to be done like eliminating the deductions for mortgage interest, state taxes, and charitable donations. Replacing the income tax with a VAT would be even better. But neither of those reforms are going to increase GDP growth rates to 3%.

    It’s the spending, Stupid!

    El Gipper (f1f816)

  68. @64 Ben Burn

    My dad did say there were less gun fights in the streets and more guys shot coming from outhouses in the olden days.

    I like Unforgiven, of course, but I like Open Range a little more.

    Boss Spearman:
    Man’s got a right to protect his property and his life, and we ain’t lettin’ no rancher or his lawman take either.

    Pinandpuller (16b0b5)

  69. I don’t agree Mr. Gipper

    other than to the extent that yes we need more than just tax cuts

    we need tax reform and regulatory reform and legal reform and education reform as well, and that’s just for starters

    we’re in a pickle and I ain’t gonna sugarcoat that pickle for you

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  70. But drug crimes are victimless crimes, Hoagie!

    nk (dbc370)

  71. So they say, nk.

    Rev.Hoagie® (6bbda7)

  72. Sarbanes Oxley did nothing for the next crisis, except enlarge it, and Sutton dillinger will not stop the next one,

    narciso (335be2)

  73. We can fix the debt by harvesting and selling islamo terriost and anti-fa body parts.

    mg (31009b)

  74. first thing is we’re gonna need a whole lot more people to approach this problem with a positive attitude and an affirmative sense of “yes we can”

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  75. funny stuff, happyfeet. Trump couldn’t balance a grandkid on his knee. Let alone the budget. Jared and Ivanka make me want to puke.

    mg (31009b)

  76. The bogus Boston fed study, fed the narrative behind the subprime bubble.

    narciso (335be2)

  77. Narciso, how are you doing?
    And has anyone heard from Ropelight?

    kishnevi (4aeca3)

  78. I hate to be greedy, but I wonder how much of the approximately $350k of the Social Security taxes paid by me and my employer I will ever see?

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  79. No power on my half of the block but I can’t complain. Thanks for asking.

    narciso (335be2)

  80. @70 Maybe don’t believe every meme you see in the internet. The guy in the picture was released as a result of the Fair Sentencing Act of 2010, Obama had nothing to do with it.

    Davethulhu (3a2442)

  81. “Someone like me is a man without a party. The very few of you who actually truly care about this are men and women without a party as well.”

    That’s been me since maybe Clinton. On the other hand I’m pushing 80 and I don’t have grandchildren go ahead on you all.

    Bang Gunley (5a4596)

  82. Wiki:

    The Fair Sentencing Act of 2010 (Public Law 111-220) was an Act of Congress that was signed into federal law by U.S. President Barack Obama on August 3, 2010 that reduces the disparity between the amount of crack cocaine and powder cocaine needed to trigger certain federal criminal penalties from a 100:1 weight ratio to an 18:1 weight ratio and eliminated the five-year mandatory minimum sentence for simple possession of crack cocaine, among other provisions.[1] Similar bills were introduced in several U.S. Congresses before its passage in 2010, and courts had also acted to reduce the sentencing disparity prior to the bill’s passage.

    So unless you believe “signed into law” does not mean signed into law, and unless by President Barack Obama does not mean by Barack Obama, I will have to assume Obama made it law. So yes Davethulhu, Obama had very much to do with it. Then no, I don’t believe every meme I see in the internet since I didn’t believe yours.

    Rev.Hoagie® (6bbda7)

  83. But unlike what your meme wants to suggest, Obama didn’t do it on his own. This was no Executive Order. This was a law passed by Congress. So blame them to. And blame the judge who apparently decided in this case that when the law talked about nonviolent offenders it really meant violent offenders.

    kishnevi (37d538)

  84. Hoagie, you and I both know that your meme was implying that Obama pardoned the guy. You do this sh*t every time someone catches you out.

    Davethulhu (3a2442)

  85. Blame the 111th congress?

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/111th_United_States_Congress

    Well, ok.

    Q! bert (fc15db)

  86. It was passed by unanimous consent.

    Davethulhu (3a2442)

  87. Only a few dinosaurs like me care about this…

    Goodbye, Space Age; hello, Stone Age:

    “According to a Congressional Budget Office (CBO) report published in October 2007, the U.S. wars in Iraq and Afghanistan could cost taxpayers a total of $2.4 trillion by 2017 when counting the huge interest costs because combat is being financed with borrowed money.” – Wikipedia

    “The war is not meant to be won. It is meant to be continuous.” – Winston Smith [John Hurt] reading Goldstein ‘1984’ – 1984

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  88. It went straight from the Senate to Obama???

    Or do you think the House was unanimous consent?

    Q! bert (fc15db)

  89. Passed/agreed to in House: On motion to suspend the rules and pass the bill Agreed to by voice vote.

    Meaning nobody cared enough to make it a formal vote.

    Davethulhu (3a2442)

  90. Not sure what argument you’re trying to make here. The bill was widely bi-partisan.

    https://www.ussc.gov/sites/default/files/pdf/news/congressional-testimony-and-reports/drug-topics/201507_RtC_Fair-Sentencing-Act.pdf

    Davethulhu (3a2442)

  91. Widely bipartisan with no names attached to the vote history? Please.

    Dem all the way. Dem Senate, Dem House, and Dem POTUS.

    I admit that I do not know if the Judge was a Dem.

    Q! bert (fc15db)

  92. If only there was some way to see the bill’s co-sponsors, and who the members of the judiciary committees were at the time. Alas, this information is lost to the past.

    Davethulhu (3a2442)

  93. I did find Dick Durban’s name as a sponsor. Is he a Republican?

    Q! bert (fc15db)

  94. Is Chuck Grassley? Or Jeff Sessions? Or Orrin Hatch? Maybe these guys were all Democrats back in 2010.

    (There are more, I just pulled out some that caught my eye)

    Davethulhu (3a2442)

  95. I honestly don’t understand what point you’re trying to make. The idiotic meme is basically saying that Obama pardoned the guy, which is patently false. It’s ok to move on, you don’t have to defend every stupid thing to death.

    Davethulhu (3a2442)

  96. https://www.congress.gov/bill/111th-congress/senate-bill/1789/cosponsors

    Hmm. 6 out of the 40, or so*, Republicans co-sponsored. That changes everything.

    *total varied during the gestation of the bill.

    Q! bert (fc15db)

  97. you don’t have to defend every stupid thing to death.

    But you do?

    Q! bert (fc15db)

  98. Ok you do agree with the meme that Obama pardoned the guy?

    Davethulhu (3a2442)

  99. There were 23 co-sponsors in the Senate
    https://www.congress.gov/bill/111th-congress/senate-bill/1789/cosponsors
    Among the six Republicans, Jeff Sessions.

    kishnevi (37d538)

  100. I am the same kind of dinosaur as our host regarding the national debt.

    Earlier today I wrote, but then didn’t submit, a much, much longer comment about the Sequester and how it is an important and recent example of how the Republican Party, in both the House and Senate, cooperated effectively to leverage the just-acquired House majority for the GOP into a meaningful dampening in the growth rate of federal deficit spending. That was a crude and painful-to-all-sides compromise with many toxic effects, including an even better fiscal excuse to hollow out the military than Obama had been able to articulate on his own. But if the GOP had not retaken the House in January 2011 after the backlash to the Obamacare cramdown and the Trillion Dollar Stimulus, we’d have had more cramdowns and stimuli for the next six years of Obama’s presidency. Whether you agree with that conclusion or not, you can’t have a serious discussion of the efficacy, in general or in the 21st Century, of the federal debt ceiling (and the regular legislation enlarging it) without considering that example. This stuff can be mega-important, especially to the party out of power, to whom it hands a potential club; the club can be wielded by the right hand or the left hand as situationally propitious.

    Playing with the debt ceiling and government shutdowns is also mega-dangerous, politically, and the Dems are justifiably proud in their lifetime record of net success in the kabuki theater that accompanies every attempt to use political power to rein in deficit spending. Now that the GOP supposedly has unified control of the federal government, we ought to be seeing fiscally conservative and responsible GOP legislators negotiating in their Senate and House GOP caucuses with those of their fellow GOP congressmen and senators who are less fiscally disciplined. But the party congressional leadership’s job is then to produce the compromise among Republicans which the leadership and POTUS will cram down the Dems’ resisting throats. See above, re Obamacare and the Stimulus.

    If you can’t grasp how Trump became a traitor to his party from the visual evidence of Trump literally embracing Chuck Schumer as he did it — that is to say, if you are Trumpkin-stupid and voted for him in the primaries because he’s such a great dealmaker and is going to drain the swamp — then think of it this way: Trump just forced the GOP leadership in the House and the Senate to go through the kabuki show at least twice, and probably three more times, before the 2018 midterms.

    Who does this help? The Democrats. Who just helped them? Trump. Mid-term elections can and do turn on such issues.

    Someone with the political sophistication of the average candidate for student council in the sixth grade could have figured all this out. Anyone who’s ever had a discussion in the huddle, resolved it, and then gone out to run a play against the other team, in any sport, can understand this.

    Someone totally self-obsessed, totally uninterested in sticking to a plan, and unwilling to be bored for even thirty more minutes while the grown-ups were talking, would instead sell out for the NYT headlines that Trump in fact got, and then have some pillow-talk with Nancy Pelosi, tweeting out the sweet nothings she’d whispered to him about contradicting what his administration had just announced a few days earlier.

    Does anyone think this will be the last time Schumer suckers Trump? Con men love conning each other more than anything. And they get better at it, because the marks double down while insisting they haven’t been conned.

    I disagree with this from our host in this post, however:

    Someone like me is a man without a party. The very few of you who actually truly care about this are men and women without a party as well.

    Perhaps it’s because I’ve lived my whole life in Texas, which has open primaries and doesn’t require, or even have any mechanism (beyond one year’s primary and general election voting, made the day of on-site) for party registration or declaration. But I emphatically conceive of the GOP as being something more than the sum of its parts, and certainly more than the sum of Donald J. Trump and every other currently-serving state or federal public official elected or appointed because of a GOP affiliation. I don’t think my allegiance to or self-identification with the Republican Party, lifelong though it has been and is likely to continue, obliges me to vote for any particular one of the party’s nominees in any particular election, much less to give that nominee any sort of blind or unthinking allegiance or support when and if elected. But I don’t root for the other team, I don’t want to join the other team, and I don’t want to give up my season tickets either. I reserve the right to boo stupid coaching decisions made by my side, and can point to a personal history of having done that in the past. I’ll reserve the right to start petition to put the starting QB on waivers or fire the general manager.

    But I’ll continue to be a Republican when Trump is dust, and I hope and expect to see the GOP recover from Trump, whether he changes (which seems unlikely but I’ll still hope for it) or blows himself and his presidency to pieces (which will hurt, but not destroy, the party). It’s not Trump’s party; he’s just its most recent presidential nominee.

    Beldar (fa637a)

  101. If it said that he was pardoned as a result of Obama’s actions, I would agree. I don’t like the wording of the meme. At the same time, I understand that liberal fantasies only make things worse.

    Ultimately I am agreeing with 87 while going a step further to blame Dem leadership as a whole.

    Q! bert (fc15db)

  102. 103 that was posted at comment 100.

    Q! bert (fc15db)

  103. I will give you that my logic does allow that a few wheeling and dealing Republicans’ actions led to this as well.

    Turns out I don’t like them either.

    Q! bert (fc15db)

  104. Q, while that was being posted I was searching for the info. Then didn’t refresh before posting my comment, so I didn’t see the other comments until after posting.

    kishnevi (37d538)

  105. 88.Hoagie, you and I both know that your meme was implying that Obama pardoned the guy. You do this sh*t every time someone catches you out.

    Don’t like getting caught do you, Davethulhu? Obama signed the bill. He could have vetoed the bill. He didn’t therefore he made it law. The result speaks for itself. Had Obama vetoed the bill that guy would be in prison and those folks would be alive. Period. Obama may not have murdered those poor unfortunate people himself but his complicity was necessary for it to happen. So in fact the bastard is an accomplice before the fact.

    Rev.Hoagie® (6bbda7)

  106. BTW, it doesn’t matter if Congress, the United Nations and Star Fleet Command sponsored or passed the bill. Obama signed it into law. Obama is an accomplice to murder.

    Rev.Hoagie® (6bbda7)

  107. Wow. I got all you lefties running around trying to tell me Obama didn’t sign into law a bill that got people murdered. Mission accomplished.

    Rev.Hoagie® (6bbda7)

  108. That’s not what your meme says, and you and I both know it Hoagie. You thought Obama pardoned the guy when you posted it, and we both know that as well. Maybe run off back to stormfront where that sort of thing is appreciated.

    As far as your legal reasoning is concerned, it’s clear Obama Derangement Syndrome is alive and well.

    Davethulhu (3a2442)

  109. 103.There were 23 co-sponsors in the Senate
    https://www.congress.gov/bill/111th-congress/senate-bill/1789/cosponsors
    Among the six Republicans, Jeff Sessions.
    kishnevi (37d538) — 9/12/2017 @ 7:51 pm

    And absolutely none of that matters. You do remember the little black & white movie about how a bill becomes a law, don’t you? So regardless of how many sponsors, co-sponsors or any other support foreign or domestic until Obama signed it it was not a law, just a bill. He made it the law. He allowed the dude out with his actions.

    Rev.Hoagie® (6bbda7)

  110. “You thought…..” You have no idea what I thought Davehulhu and to say you do is ridiculous. But as usual when a leftist looses an argument your will now tell me what I meant. You’re in over your head. Obama made it a law and people died because of it. That is my point.

    And I love the squirrel thrown in with: “As far as your legal reasoning is concerned, it’s clear Obama Derangement Syndrome is alive and well.” Now you try belittlement or snark or insults or accusations. Funny coming from a leftist who has been non-stop hysterical anti-Trump going on a year. Legal reasoning? Did you really type that silliness? Okay here’s some “legal reasoning” just for you: Obama signed it into law. Is that “reasonable” enough?

    Rev.Hoagie® (6bbda7)

  111. Seattle mayor Ed Murray is resigning over a sex scandal.

    Have #neverTrumpers been praying for his ruination with their hands pointed towards the floor, and Hell, like Linus?

    Pinandpuller (16b0b5)

  112. You have no idea what I thought Davehulhu and to say you do is ridiculous.

    Of course I know what you thought, it’s the same thing as everyone else who has posted this, it’s easy enough to find on social media.

    In fact, this meme is even dumber than I first realized. Callahan was released Aug 2014, 10 months ahead of time based on the act in question. He committed the murders in January 2016, 17 months after he was released. He would have been out of prison anyway.

    Davethulhu (3a2442)

  113. If it wasn’t clear, I was wondering if all the prayers for Mr President DJT’s resignation or impeachment aren’t ricocheting off in unexpected directions.

    Duncan: There is a war on. How is it you are headed west?

    Hawkeye: Well we face to the north and, real subtle-like, turn left.

    The Last of the Mohicans

    Pinandpuller (16b0b5)

  114. Who else is on the new reality show with Ed Murray, Lena Dunham and Anthony Wiener?

    Pinandpuller (16b0b5)

  115. I had a client who escaped from prison. He contracted measles, and just broke out.

    nk (dbc370)

  116. hope all you Floridians are ok.
    my oldest daughter was married sat. in the back yard and now heads home to St. Pete. We have had a great family of Floridians staying with us for a few days. God Bless you all.

    mg (31009b)

  117. @119 nk

    Sounds like a sovereign citizen.

    Pinandpuller (d92660)

  118. lets have internet porn tax pud pulling ted cruz could put a dent in the national debt all by himself!

    cruds pud (bb6d7a)

  119. Well the wiccans who prayed for mar alagi to be destroyed, were dissapointed, I guess that’s you Lana.

    narciso (6169c7)

  120. No, I want to talk about Seattle’s child-molesting Democrat mayor. And don’t tell me it’s a coincidence that that horsesh!t story about pron on Ted’s Twitter came out at the same time as the Dem perv’s resignation.

    nk (dbc370)

  121. I would pay people to start chanting “R. Budd DWYER” (college cheer cadence, as in Over-rated!) at the scheduled Wednesday stepdown, nk.

    urbanleftbehind (807688)

  122. That’s cold ulb:
    6a00d83451b2aa69e201b8d2a9f1dc970c

    narciso (36dd65)

  123. I had to look it up.

    I remember that when Indiana passed its religious freedom law, Seattle banned travel by its municipal employees to Indiana. At that time, I did not know about the Democrat Mayor’s peccadillos but I had a pretty good idea of what kind of place Seattle has become. I thought, “Less work for the vice squads of Indiana”.

    nk (dbc370)

  124. You keep on truckin’ Republican-controlled Congress! https://twitter.com/WilkowMajority/status/907919277298212864

    Colonel Haiku (a4b010)

  125. That’s both sickening and ridiculous at the same time, Colonel.

    Rev.Hoagie® (6bbda7)

  126. Pin: Republicans have the best sex scandals. It’s those tight sphincters with no outlets.

    Ben burn (b37d73)

  127. it’s about time poop-lick paul faced the dynamic and growing Republican White Supremacy Movement head on

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  128. That’s actually sad for the fact that there are probably better hard core non-establishment talents for those ambassadorships. Not liked the McCourts since they sold out to the cholo-ocracy for Dodger home game experience (they were the owners of record when that paramedic got beat up in the parking lot). Might be nice to see Porky Pig Weathervane get cucked by a Rotherdam alumnus.

    urbanleftbehind (5eecdb)

  129. I remember that when Indiana passed its religious freedom law, Seattle banned travel by its municipal employees to Indiana.

    good catch Mr. nk

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  130. so pool-lick paul wanted a HUGE debt increase

    and President Trump opted for a much smaller one

    and poop-lick paul’s the fiscal hero?

    lol Republican Party don’t ever change

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  131. oops i did a misspeller on *poop-lick paul*

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  132. The Trump sphere of influence does seem to be shrinking like Legacy family- owned teams urban. Walter O’Malley as Ambassador has some resonance.

    Ben burn (b37d73)

  133. I call him Eddie Haskell pikachu, hey How about the supreme court upholding the travel ban, almost entirely.

    narciso (36dd65)

  134. Just make this clod ambassador to Slovenia.

    https://www.campusreform.org/?ID=9758

    Ben burn (b37d73)

  135. lovin that Supreme Court Mr. narciso

    they got their sensible shoes on this week

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  136. Yeah (and one-time salute to Justice Kennedy who put some sort of one-day stay before tuesday’s ruling), but whats up with this, and from one of his first-in-line wise guy northeastern supporters to boot…http://nypost.com/2017/09/13/gop-congressmen-back-legislation-to-protect-dreamers/

    urbanleftbehind (5eecdb)

  137. Trump does. He wants them to have amnesty.

    DRJ (15874d)

  138. The Donald ‘pivot ‘ from bad cop to good has an expiration date: his next buzzy fit.

    Ben burn (b3d5ab)

  139. Its not the sneaking in per se, after all many acres are hard to defense… it would be the other services that Disney parks offer based on other’s proof of payment i.e. express lines at Space Mountain, rented strollers, shuttles, priority on pins etc. (analogous to social services in this case).

    urbanleftbehind (5eecdb)

  140. harvardtrash trannies are the very worst most awful kind!

    you’ll never get that out of the upholstery

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  141. The national debt is a symptom. It is a portent of a lousy future.

    But controlling the national debt is like trying to put ice cubes on a thermometer instead of turning down the thermostat for the heater. All it does is play into the hands of Democrats who want to raise tax revenues to lower the “deficit.”

    The problem is federal spending in a fiat currency monetary system where there are no effective budgetary constraints when the Federal Reserve can buy all the Treasury Bonds it wants.

    Step One – Federalism: Shutter the Departments of Agriculture, Commerce, Energy, Education, Labor, Health and Human Services, Housing and Urban Development, Transportation, and Veterans Affairs. Give all 50 states two years to take over whatever policies and programs they desire from these departments, hire staff members, and raise taxes on their residents accordingly. This especially goes for Medicaid. Let the states be responsible for aiding the indigent. Whatever programs with true interstate commerce impacts are contained in these departments could be retained and continued under the Department of the Interior. Air Traffic Control, Center for Disease Control, interstate pollution controls, etc.

    Step Two – Raise the minimum age for receiving Social Security and Medicare benefits gradually to a level sustainable with federal tax revenues not exceeding 18% of GDP. Transfer the Disability Insurance Program in Social Security to the States to run as they wish.

    Step Three – Focus on operating the Departments of Defense, Homeland Security, Interior, Justice, Treasury, and State. Like a restaurant with a menu limited to fresh ingredients prepared very well, the federal government will focus on doing fewer things better.

    Once we’ve done this, THEN we can talk until we’re blue in the face about tax reform.

    El Gipper (f1f816)

  142. If everyone felt that, Gipper, we would have never had the Sequester and the debt would be even higher. I would like structural reforms, too, but sometimes all we can get is procedural reforms.

    DRJ (15874d)

  143. 145.Trump does. He wants them to have amnesty.
    DRJ (15874d) — 9/13/2017 @ 9:11 am

    That was, you know, kinda my point DRJ. I disagree with amnesty regardless who wants it. I was there for the last amnesty under Reagan when we got screwed the first time.

    Rev.Hoagie® (6bbda7)

  144. 149.harvardtrash trannies are the very worst most awful kind!

    you’ll never get that out of the upholstery
    happyfeet (28a91b) — 9/13/2017 @ 9:34 am

    Moslem’s from the “religion of peace” know how to deal with those pesky trannies, happyfeet.

    https://a.disquscdn.com/get?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.barenakedislam.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2017%2F01%2FFallujah_ISIS_Gay_Execution-800×450.jpg&key=pjQyiIX2mbnyVdlIHtdasQ&w=600&h=285

    Rev.Hoagie® (6bbda7)

  145. Then call Trump out on it, Hoagie. You are right and he is using his feelings instead of doing what he promised. I get this is difficult but he is not doing what he campaigned to do.

    DRJ (15874d)

  146. Or keep talking about hate. Your call.

    DRJ (15874d)

  147. Benedict Arnold was short changed.

    felipe (b5e0f4)

  148. I don’t understand what it is you want me to do, DRJ. I just stated I’m against amnesty regardless who wants it. You do realize “regardless” includes Trump, Hillary, every commie leftist and even you. So what more can I “call out”? And what is this “talking about hate” sh!t?

    Rev.Hoagie® (6bbda7)

  149. El Gipper (f1f816) — 9/13/2017 @ 9:36 am

    The problem is federal spending in a fiat currency monetary system where there are no effective budgetary constraints when the Federal Reserve can buy all the Treasury Bonds it wants.

    Why is that a problem? Why should anyone be against free money? Because it causes inflation? Where is there inflation in the last ten or even twenty, years?? *

    The safe limit on how big a deficit can be is not zero. On the other hand, it is not infinity, either. So there are constraints. Just not precise ones.

    Also, the problem is maybe not the deficit, but the total accumulated debt. (Countries that have hyperinflation have far larger deficits)

    There is no precise limit. The debt maybe gets more risky the bigger it gets as a percentage of GDP and the greater the amount that needs to be rolled over every year or two or three.
    ————–

    * And even if there is a price to paid for free money, isn’t free money worth something, too?

    Sammy Finkelman (58e1fc)

  150. STUPID MUSLIMS

    how many times i tell you trannies can’t fly

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  151. One reason this can continue, too, is that the Dollar is like the proton. There is nothing it can decay into. It is th world’s reserve currency.

    There is no other more reliable and useful currency it can be exchanged for. Not gold. Gold is not money. If someone has gold oer silver, they have to turn it back into dollars if they want to spend it. Gold is not money. Money is what nobody is afraid of getting stuck holding, and everybody is willing to take.

    Let the states be responsible for aiding the indigent.

    This ignores the free money. Taxpayers pay $5 into the U.S. Treasury and get $6 back, and there is problems when there are sudden emergencies. We’ve been using free money now for about 85 years.

    Sammy Finkelman (58e1fc)

  152. They thought, “since we break many laws, why not the laws of physics?”

    felipe (b5e0f4)

  153. Well, in the end, production approximately matches consumption regardless of what currency it’s denominated in. If we can move digits around in ledger entries in a such a way that people can enjoy more goods and services for the same work, then I’m not sure it matters financially how that was achieved.

    When you think about consumer debt, you’re increasing your present consumption by agreeing to give someone else the right to some of your future consumption, and as a result constraining some of your future choices. That’s what’s going on, when you take money out of it. People who save are not piling up goods and services in some kind of warehouse, to draw down when they retire. They are yielding their power to consume today to someone else, in exchange for a promise that later they will be given someone else’s power to consume.

    So a system of economics needs to allow people to make those kinds of choices. But in the end, production now matches consumption now, and will in the future. No one eats money, or clothes themselves in it, or builds a house out of it. People can’t consume goods that are not being produced, and only a tiny fraction of goods get stockpiled for any length of time–and services, of course, can only be done at one time, they cannot be saved for later.

    Frederick (64d4e1)

  154. In other words it’s not the size of the debt, or the interest on it, or who it’s owed to. It’s the plausibility that the promises will be kept.

    For the unfunded liabilities, public and private, we have all been operating with some of our power to consume today, taken away and given to today’s old* and sick* people for them to consume today, and we put up with it largely because we expect that someday we will be allowed to consume other people’s when we need it.

    A radical change in the entitlement structure might improve the balance sheet, on paper, but if it makes the promises less plausible, then in practice it won’t.

    And that’s what makes economics at the national scale so hard, there are a bunch of shared illusions which are more likely to come out true if people believe them.

    Frederick (64d4e1)

  155. old* and sick*: Plenty of people on Medicare and Medicaid are neither. The average age for Medicare is well under 65, for example, and qualifying disabilities get expanded every time we turn around.

    Frederick (64d4e1)

  156. a penny saved is a penny earned

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  157. This is just for you DRJ. I just took a few minutes and went to usa.gov/elected-officials and sent a scathing email of objection to the White House telling President Trump in no uncertain words that I was “calling him out”* about amnesty to dreamers or anyone else and that he is going back on his campaign promises and I am mad as hell. Feel better?

    *my exact words

    Rev.Hoagie® (6bbda7)

  158. 104. Beldar (fa637a) — 9/12/2017 @ 7:52 pm

    Trump just forced the GOP leadership in the House and the Senate to go through the kabuki show at least twice, and probably three more times, before the 2018 midterms.

    Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell says that deal isn’t anywhere near as good as the Democrats think it is. He actually separated the budget/continuing resolution issue from the debt ceiling issue, which won;t become a must-pass bill until the middle of 2018. I’ll try to post the link to yesterday;s New York Times story (it went online Sept 11) later.

    and then have some pillow-talk with Nancy Pelosi, tweeting out the sweet nothings she’d whispered to him about contradicting what his administration had just announced a few days earlier.

    Wait, wait. Did Trump ever say he didn’t want the Dreamers to get amnesty, or that he would codition it on anything in particular?

    Senator Schumer pointed out to Trump that something like 70% of the American people favor it (if they work etc, although preventing people from working is given as the justification for limiting, and even lowering, legal immigration. I guess people haven’t quite bought into that, and tghey think working is a positive.) and even 56% of Trump voters do. Trump’s feelings are like that of the electorate.

    He’s just got a problem with part of his base. (and can you see Trump accepting that as part of a deal?)

    Sammy Finkelman (58e1fc)

  159. @Sammy:something like 70% of the American people favor

    Yeah, because they’ve been lied to about it. But that’s another issue. Most people don’t realize that it applies to people in their late 30s who have committed crimes, because it’s been described differently.

    It’s like asking “do you think the government should help take care of the disabled”, of course everyone agrees, but not if you explain that drug abusers and alcoholics count as disabled.

    Frederick (64d4e1)

  160. Rev.Hoagie® (6bbda7) — 9/13/2017 @ 10:39 am

    sent a scathing email of objection to the White House telling President Trump in no uncertain words that I was “calling him out”* about amnesty to dreamers or anyone else and that he is going back on his campaign promises and I am mad as hell. Feel better?

    *my exact words

    But Trump is not going back on his campaign promises, or only a little.

    He said he would get rid of DACA, and he did, although not right away, like he promised.

    He never promised he would oppose a legislative solution.

    He supports the kind of immigration bill Jeff Sessions wass for, and so far he does.

    He never said getting one was a condiion for the other.

    He never said he wouldn’t make a deal with the Democrats that included legalizing the DACA recipients.

    Now what Trump wants is funding for the wall, while saying he will get the money back from Mexico, somehow. This is one item the Democrats don’t want to waste money on, because of the way it sounds to their base, and they’re offering adding some money for other things, just not a “wall.” Just so long maybe as Trump doesn’t call it a wall.

    Sammy Finkelman (58e1fc)

  161. 167. her’s the link to NYT artivle on the deal.

    https://www.nytimes.com/2017/09/11/us/politics/mitch-mcconnell-debt-limit-deal-trump-schumer.html

    Sammy Finkelman (02a146)

  162. No, Hoagie 166, I don’t feel better. What I want is for you to call people out with reason, not anger. I don’t want you to be “mad as hell.” It isn’t good for anyone’s health or soul.

    DRJ (15874d)

  163. Further, playing to happyfeet’s bigotry against transgenders by linking photos of the murder of LGBT people is (IMO) hateful

    DRJ (15874d)

  164. i’m not bigotry on trannies i just don’t like them

    they’re not normal

    ugh

    why you make me think about trannies??

    safe place safe place

    happyfeet (28a91b)


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