Patterico's Pontifications

8/8/2017

President Trump Vows Fire And Fury, And Power Like This World Has Never Seen Before

Filed under: General — Dana @ 5:48 pm

[post by Dana]

[Patterico and I each wrote a post about this. This is a combination of the two.]

North Korea best not make any more threats to the United States. They will be met with fire and fury like the world has never seen. He has been very threatening beyond a normal state. And as I said they will be met with fire, fury, and frankly power, the likes of which this world has never seen before.

“Lovely,” says our host.

One lunatic faces off against another. Each makes grand pronouncements from which it is difficult to back down.

What could possibly go wrong?

From North Korea to the US:

The president’s comments came as North Korea earlier in the day escalated its criticism of the United States, as well as its neighboring allies, by warning that it will mobilize all its resources to take “physical action” in retaliation against the latest round of United Nations sanctions.

The statement, carried by the North’s state-run Korean Central News Agency, was the strongest indication yet that the country could conduct another nuclear or missile test, as it had often done in response to past United Nations sanctions. Until now, the North’s response to the latest sanctions had been limited to strident yet vague warnings, such as threatening retaliation “thousands of times over.”

“Packs of wolves are coming in attack to strangle a nation,” the North Korean statement said. “They should be mindful that the D.P.R.K.’s strategic steps accompanied by physical action will be taken mercilessly with the mobilization of all its national strength.”

Resolution 2371 was unanimously supported in a vote by the UN Security Council several days ago. As a result of its passage, “the regime of Kim Jong Un will be banned from exporting any goods or services. The BBC estimates that the sanctions will reduce North Korean exports from $3 billion to $2 billion annually. That $2 billion will be retained by continued illicit trading with nations such as China”. The sanctions also “ban[s] member countries from importing coal, iron, iron ore, lead, lead ore and seafood from North Korea. They also prohibit member nations from hosting any additional workers from the North above their current levels.”

After the president left the golf course to make his tit-for-tat fire and fury threat, North Korea made a threat of their own against Guam, which has two US military bases:

North Korea said on Wednesday it is “carefully examining” a plan to strike the U.S. Pacific territory of Guam with missiles…
A spokesman for the Korean People’s Army, in a statement carried by the North’s state-run KCNA news agency, said the strike plan will be “put into practice in a multi-current and consecutive way any moment” once leader Kim Jong Un makes a decision.

In another statement citing a different military spokesman, North Korea also said it could carry out a pre-emptive operation if the United States showed signs of provocation.

Earlier Pyongyang said it was ready to give Washington a “severe lesson” with its strategic nuclear force in response to any U.S. military action.

On one hand, while John McCain believes the situation is serious, he warns that the president’s rhetoric is not helpful and that he should instead “walk softly and carry a big stick”. On the other hand, Tom Nichols thinks we all need to take a deep breath:

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Both reactions seem wise.

(Cross-posted at The Jury Talks Back.)

–Dana

314 Responses to “President Trump Vows Fire And Fury, And Power Like This World Has Never Seen Before”

  1. To me, this is yet another example where the President needs to not make any threats, warnings, or major statements without first seeking the approval of his reliable and experienced advisors.

    Dana (023079)

  2. I like Derbyshire’s theories on gunboat diplomacy.

    Tell them repeatedly that they can do what they want to themselves and their immediate neighbors, but that if they interfere with us, we will bomb the living snot out of them, targeting particularly the homes and families of their senior idiots.

    Let the posterity of Kim Jong Un be Kim Jong Nun.

    Fred Z (05d938)

  3. Dia under general fLynn had one of the best track record, re the Libyan report one month before Benghazi, which I’ve referred on various occasions, they didn’t make a big deal about the vaunted 17 agency finding

    narciso (d1f714)

  4. Mike Flynn? When Mike Flynn was head of the DIA he sent a whole day at the HQ of the GRU and he was arguing for co-operation with Russia in Syria and I think he’s suspected by some people of having been a Russian spy back then – or else why did the New York Times mention that?

    Of course Mueller doesn’t seem to be looking into that angle.

    Sammy Finkelman (a3d36d)

  5. 2. Fred Z (05d938) — 8/8/2017 @ 6:54 pm

    Tell them repeatedly that they can do what they want to themselves and their immediate neighbors, but that if they interfere with us, we will bomb the living snot out of them, targeting particularly the homes and families of their senior idiots.

    Trump doesn’t want retaliation – he wants prevention, and abandoning allies doesn’t sound like an idea reliable and experienced advisors would want.

    Sammy Finkelman (a3d36d)

  6. Looking the otherway with the donbas report team (ballard will explain) letting the shbihas run rampant, the rhides road show some mild sanctions against caracas nothing with bite no to mention belans heist if the exchanges and the rusatom deal, there wiil be a quiz.

    narciso (d1f714)

  7. So the Russian sanction would more affect firms like mannesman and Siemens who do business with Russia and downstream with Iran.

    narciso (d1f714)

  8. Sammy, South Korea is not much of an ally. What have they done for the USA lately? It looks to me like “ally” in their case means “dependent”. Sort of like France and Germany.

    Jesus, are Americans always such suckers?

    America is just the big, rich, drunk, guy of the world, tucking thousand dollar bills into the panties of hookers, and he never does get laid, he just passes out and the hookers steal his wallet and laugh at him.

    I’m Canadian, disgusted at my country, one of the hookers, and disgusted at yours.

    Patterico says I’m a fool of a Trumpkin. Maybe so. Anything is better than what we’ve had.

    Fred Z (05d938)

  9. The previous regime under Mrs park, was more prowestern than the new got, the Jimmy carrel of sraoul, but they are threatened just as much because they are considered a puppet regime tied to the Japan, the one time conqueror in the us, as much I disagree with Bruce comings revisionist view of north Korean history. I do acknowledge the key facts

    narciso (d1f714)

  10. Not seeing the nutcasery on Trump’s part here. If the Norks nuke us, we’re going to nuke them hard.Is this some kind of brutal excess or something?

    Richard Aubrey (0d7df4)

  11. It’s funny to watch my academic pals on Twitter. They must hate all things involving DJT. I mean, I don’t like the fellow, but if he does something good, it’s important to admit to that freely. Otherwise, it takes you to weird places.

    Like my buddies basically saying that Trump is the warmonger here.

    I need to watch “Team America” to reboot my mood.

    Simon Jester (bcb31a)

  12. They are the epitome of epistemuc closure aren’t they. We cannot it is like riding on the amazon

    narciso (d1f714)

  13. Does exum realize the same chief negotiator behind the Korea was part and parcel of the Rhodesia road show.

    narciso (d1f714)

  14. Bill Clinton unleashed the bombast too. He said “It would mean the end of their country.” I guess that’s “Step 3″ in the “How to Deal with the Norks” playbook.

    So hopefully we are all not about to die. Yet.

    http://www.nytimes.com/1993/07/13/world/clinton-s-warning-irks-north-korea.html

    Patricia (5fc097)

  15. And trump has considered the question as an interview with Tim russert in 99 suggests

    narciso (d1f714)

  16. In this corner, Blusterer 1.
    In this other corner, Blusterer 2.

    As long as Blusterer 1 and Blusterer 2 think the other one is simply blustering, we’re okay.
    Danger comes when Blusterer 1 decides Blusterer 2 is not blustering, or Blusterer 2 decides Blusterer 1 is not blustering.

    Of course I live in the corner of the US which is furthest away from NK….

    I don’t think there is a good answer to the problem. Perhaps tell China that if they permanently resolve the situation we will stop objecting to their claims in the South China Sea. Some sort of positive inducement.

    kishnevi (d0d2b7)

  17. The problem knish is that north Korea is still an independent actor from china. Somewhat like Cuba was in 1962 via a via kryschev

    narciso (d1f714)

  18. Simon, Team America is one of my favorite movies. The next season of South Park is sure to be awesome.

    I am going to give Trump at least a little credit: He has drawn the red line, and unlike Obama, people probably believe him. I believe that he is serious about a strike on North Korea, and I sorely wish Bill Clinton had been.

    Patricia is correct to cite Clinton’s own warnings while Madeline Albright gave the North Koreans a deal that really did the world a severe injustice (much as Obama’s recent deal with Iran will be something Americans pay a price for down the road).

    And this is the big Trump argument. He’s better than a return to a Clinton administration. I have to say, a North Korea with nukes is a pretty damn good argument in his favor, as much as I greatly dislike Trump.

    Pray, everyone. North Korea is a human rights disaster and the terrible cost of saving those people, the decades it would take, is the right thing to do (I remain a neocon). North Korea can and will sell its nuclear missile systems. They are truly desperate for money. They literally print fake American currency all day long just to buy the parts for these bombs. They plan to use them to get money and influence, and they must be stopped, and now doing so will be painful.

    Having lived in Korea, I’ve always loved those people, who work very hard to more like Americans, and have done a pretty amazing thing in the last 25 years. A nuke in Seoul is the true fear.

    Dustin (ba94b2)

  19. Fred Z, doesn’t sound like you’re an ally of America, given your calling us a drunk dumbass. Why should America listen to the advice of someone who hates our influence and success?

    Dustin (ba94b2)

  20. What did Trump say that was false?

    AZ Bob (f7a491)

  21. Clinton and Obama gave pallets of billions and nuke technology to despots and mullahs but Trump is the lunatic?

    harkin (aca8cf)

  22. Not seeing the nutcasery on Trump’s part here. If the Norks nuke us, we’re going to nuke them hard.Is this some kind of brutal excess or something?

    That’s not what he said.

    Patterico (115b1f)

  23. Very Very nice post. its a very useful and outstanding article. Thanks for that.

    Epson Support Number (cfcb2f)

  24. Patterico. In terms of laying out the response, it is what he said. I know you don’t like the guy but being stuck on the phrasing is not useful.

    Richard Aubrey (0d7df4)

  25. Patterico says I’m a fool of a Trumpkin. Maybe so. Anything is better than what we’ve had.

    Anything is better than the most prosperous and free society in the history of the world?

    If you say so.

    Dave (445e97)

  26. Reform of north Korea, is a Gordian knot, who is a Walesa or or su ki among them, otherwise we would be left with the less corrupt general. We saw how putting in a muzhik like Yeltsin didn’t silver the problem, he hired junior nomenklatura like summers pal schreiber to look the country with his associates who became the oligarchs. Midlevel officials in the security services became the men if power, the siliviki, the head one was putin. The situation resembled the time of troubles before the rise of the ivans

    narciso (d1f714)

  27. So Trump drew a red line, promising that any threat would be met with a disproportionate military response, and Kim spit in his face and crossed it within hours by doing exactly what Trump warned him not to do.

    Will Trump retreat with his tail between his legs into the pathetic “he didn’t say what he said when he said what he said” semantics we’ve come to expect, and give the whole world another reason to laugh at his stupidity?

    Or will he back up his swagger and start nuclear war over a press release?

    Dave (445e97)

  28. In china the second generation of army leadership, becsmr the pla strongmen that run the country, I guess the parallel would be if krychkov had managed to mow down Yeltsin in red square back in 1999, my concern is that native land would go the same way with the far and the dig (the founder of the former camilo pineiro, was the father in law of the reassigned bezos correspondent for Latin America), nick miroff, now he’ll just be covering the national security beat) the alright deal negotiated by wendymsherman, entrenched these people the real life lannisters of westeros for twenty years

    narciso (d1f714)

  29. Neville Chamberlain had lousy timing. He ran an appeasement game on Hitler but neglected to be out of office when it bit him and the rest of the world in the ass. Obama did the same wrt several pottential bad guys and then scooted. Even more deliciously, when the stuff hits the fan, it will be a REPUBLICAN warmonger who gets the blame. Can’t say Obama didn’t know what he was doing.

    Richard Aubrey (0d7df4)

  30. In Iraq, there isn’t a model either, to a degree the dissidents and exiles like chalabi walked into the kingdom, but they disowned him, the deep state having branded him an Iranian asset theynproceeded to seat a real one maliki for eight years, meanwhile the sunni tribal based security forces proceeded to wage a guerilla war, like the klan did against the reconstruction govt

    narciso (d1f714)

  31. Here’s a little flashback to a December 2015 debate as a morale booster, just to reassure everyone that the fate of the world is in the very best set of tiny, tiny hands. Believe me.

    HUGH HEWITT: Of the three legs of the triad, though, do you have a priority?

    DONALD TRUMP: I think – I think, for me, nuclear is just the power, the devastation is very important to me.

    Dave (445e97)

  32. Chsmberlain did chose poorly, but what were his choices, a generation of young brutish men has died on the field of Flanders to seemingly little effect. There wee the Oxford peace pledge of 1934, nit to fight for king and country

    narciso (d1f714)

  33. The phrasing of the statement indicates to me that those are Trump’s words, not a statement he was told to give by anybody who actually thought for half-a-second about what the words mean. The sounds coming out of Trump’s mouth are just random vocalizations no more meaningful than the sounds coming out of a donkey’s mouth when you poke it in the butt with a sharp stick.

    Jerryskids (cfad51)

  34. If they MSNBC back then, they would have denounced Dr. Pipes, strobe tslbott who owed
    his career to a kgb fixer victor Louis would have been in the four front:

    https://m.townhall.com/tipsheet/laurettabrown/2017/08/08/gorka-explains-use-of-term-radical-islamic-terrorism-to-msnbc-you-dont-call-cancer-the-flu-n2366212

    narciso (d1f714)

  35. Maybe we could send the peanut farmer bearing more gifts.

    Truthbetold (1ab5c1)

  36. Has any president sans Reagan really dealt with any totalitarian power successfully, fdr made the mistake of embracing Stalin, Truman muddled through.

    narciso (d1f714)

  37. “There wee the Oxford peace pledge of 1934, nit to fight for king and country”

    The way that the Left did a 180 on the war when Hitler invaded Russia is illustrative.

    harkin (aca8cf)

  38. He couldn’t formally acknowledge the 20 years of soviet infiltration that led to Korea, and the gall of eastern Europe, so it was left to Mccarthy, who had studied the report on msrshalls managenrt including the china mission

    narciso (d1f714)

  39. This ranch is back in business, Hot for Teacher fantasies not withstanding: http://abc7chicago.com/vehicle-deliberately-hits-soldiers-in-paris-suburb-injuring-6-police-say/2289073/

    urbanleftbehind (79dff4)

  40. One forgets that Whitaker chambers was a soviet asset who came out of the cold after the refection of guru general, krivitsky who was subsequently executed

    narciso (d1f714)

  41. It was another tale the gouzenko affair, which mostly involved Canada which uncovered the Bentley spy ring, that chambers testified to. Lauchlin currie an fdr official who set up the flying tigers was also involved in denying a loan to Chiang at a critical moment in their civil war, much like tubottom and wieland did to barista a decade later. Currie was a soviet spy, maybe in a similar position that human was in the ikwan network infiltrating Hillary’s campaign. So none of these events happen by accudent

    narciso (d1f714)

  42. I told you there would be quiz on the material

    narciso (d1f714)

  43. Narciso

    I see your friend Clarice Feldman is still pushing the false Plamegate narrative.

    The women has no shame!

    Truthbetold (1ab5c1)

  44. Lager hiss was part of the ware spy ring started out as a staffer in the aaa, then the NYSE committee where his leaks of confidential world war one communications largely triggered the isolationist movement in this country.

    narciso (d1f714)

  45. Armitage because he had management over int and despite the fact he was against the Iraq war, was ticked off that Valerie was big fitting his turf. The cia’s reaction to the roar memo likely due toillars input was to send Joe wilsin

    narciso (d1f714)

  46. Narc

    That’s all been proven to be false and you know it. The FBI has Marc Grossman on tape. The Armigate narrative is laughable.

    Truthbetold (1ab5c1)

  47. As you see, narrative is the farthest thing from the truth, it took mark moyar digging through Russian and Vietnamese archives to uncover all of halberstams category error in the run up to the diem coup, but a generation. Of reporters including prichnau and sheehan had made their reputation on that narratuve

    narciso (d1f714)

  48. Weak Narc, very weak

    Truthbetold (1ab5c1)

  49. W convinced Qaddafi to abandon Libya’s nuclear weapons program with the promise of a path to normal relations only to be betrayed by his successor. Clinton’s Budapest Memorandum on Security Assurances in ’94 signed by US, UK, Russia and Ukraine guaranteed Ukraine’s sovereignty and borders in exchange for dismantling some with US assistance and transferring the rest of Soviet nuclear weapons and capabilities to Russia and the Joint US-Russia agreement in ’09 reiterating the Budapest security guarantees weren’t worth much when Russia annexed Crimea 5 years later. Neither example offers much hope for a peaceful repeat with either North Korea or Iran.

    Trump’s sabre-rattling is likely intended to get China and possibly Russia to the grand-bargaining table as the Cuban embargo did with Russia 55 yrs ago. If he succeeds in getting them to the table the question is what is it going to cost US to denuclearize Kim? Recognizing China’s extended their sovereignty over disputed waters may just be a down payment on any possible agreement.

    crazy (11d38b)

  50. Pillar, having been historically wring on every jusgement about the middle east fir 20 years sees fit to make judgenents from His perch at the national interest.

    The late Richard holbrooke read halberstams and imparted his category error to harriman

    narciso (d1f714)

  51. The late Richard Holbrooke was succeeded by Marc Grossman

    Truthbetold (1ab5c1)

  52. Narc

    Why did Ashcroft and Mueller tell Armitage, Powell and Taft not to tell anyone?

    Truthbetold (1ab5c1)

  53. Now another personal motive that wolsin had involved hisvties to rock creek partner who in turn worked with the alamoudi and that other kingdom clan, who also were donors to the Atlantic council (re crowdatrike) and red queens foundation. So belch for us Dave.

    narciso (d1f714)

  54. I notice you have a difficult time answering direct questions, Narciso

    Truthbetold (1ab5c1)

  55. The playbook is easy to read.

    Special Counsel Tag Team, James Comey and Robert Mueller
    http://canadafreepress.com/article/special-counsel-tag-team-james-comey-and-robert-mueller

    Truthbetold (1ab5c1)

  56. That’s a cross section of diplomatic and intelligence malfeasance across seven decades. Of course the same idiots like lyman Kirkpatrick (who was fooled by the late villa espin

    narciso (d1f714)

  57. Blather Narc, nothing but blather.

    Truthbetold (1ab5c1)

  58. Who told him Fidel was kosher, just like Mao was an agrarian reformer, (re the purged china hands) khomeini (according to Richard flak of Princeton) was a sincere dissident . of course he is telling the UN, Israel is an apartheid state.

    narciso (d1f714)

  59. The problem is these jackalopes always fail upwards then they render judgenents who try to fix what they broke.

    narciso (d1f714)

  60. Narc, you have so much to say. Until you are asked a simple direct question. Then you go silent.

    Truthbetold (1ab5c1)

  61. So pillar didn’t tell the reporters that the baathist that were the base of the Iraqi insurgency was strongly salafi hence they did the same function for the Islamic state.

    narciso (d1f714)

  62. And you have no follow up Bernie, why people do things is as importantcas what they do, out of avarice , ignorance or ideoligucal blindness, its a combination of the three.

    narciso (d1f714)

  63. The non-conspiratorial explanation for why Armitage was not pursued is because he came forward as W asked everyone in the administration to do and DOJ attempted to protect other sources, methods and/or operations while investigating Plame and her blown cover. Whether Comey proceeded with a good faith effort to corral anyone else to answer the CIA’s referral or went on a licensed hunting trip to bag Bush-Cheney will only be known to history. Regardless, Libby was collateral damage.

    crazy (11d38b)

  64. No he didn’t, lets dispense with that, you see how pointless it is to explain anything to a reporter, take Jim acosta please, now why Armitage turn on the one who saved his back, a decade earlier. That would be scooter Libby, its not personal its just business.

    narciso (d1f714)

  65. Wilson couldnt well explain he was on the take by the same people that handled the Niger mining operations or those like the kingdom which had made accommodation with the baathistd

    narciso (d1f714)

  66. Crazy and Narc

    The CIA sent Wilson so because he could write an op-ed. No NDA!!

    Was Ashcroft, Mueller and the CIA all out to get Bush/Cheney?

    Truthbetold (1ab5c1)

  67. Seeing the results of a failed Soviet State has taken decades, but the nostalgia about Cold War has given way to the need for hit wars that end decisively.

    Wait. Did the Thousand Year Reich actually fail, or has it been sleeping like the Soviet?

    Ben burn (12ab2c)

  68. Hot wars that end decisively..

    Ben burn (12ab2c)

  69. a) likely true but unproveable.
    b) Ashcroft – no, others? Only history will know.

    crazy (11d38b)

  70. The hard-liners see a narrow window on dealing scorched Earth to NK. It’s a dangerous mix of zeitgeist and POTUS.

    Ben burn (12ab2c)

  71. http://www.politico.com/story/2017/08/09/lindsey-graham-north-korea-red-line-241439

    Unfortunately, the topic always ends the way Trump loves it…anout HISSELF.

    This is the problem with Trumpets: they support an antidemocratic/ANTI speech liar whose true religion is Ends Justifies Means..

    Ben burn (12ab2c)

  72. This morning:My first order as President was to renovate and modernize our nuclear arsenal. It is now far stronger and more powerful than ever before….

    This cannot be right, can it? In any particular? “First order”? You might think it was a stop-off for a Big Mac (w/ a side of “Plutonium Fries”?), but apparently it was not:

    The balls followed Trump issuing his first executive orders from the Oval Office where he directed government agencies to “ease the burden” of the Affordable Care Act on Friday night. The new president campaigned on repealing Obamacare and replacing it with “something terrific”.

    In addition, new White House chief of staff, Reince Priebus, issued a memo on Friday night directing an immediate “regulatory freeze” to prevent federal agencies from issuing any new regulations. This echoed Trump’s pledge to repeal two existing regulations for new government regulation imposed by his administration.

    However, these actions fell far short of the big promises Trump made for his first day in office on the campaign trail.

    Trump took pleasure in boasting about the feats he would accomplish in his first 24 hours in the Oval Office, ranging from building a wall on the US-Mexico border to promises to announce a renegotiation of Nafta and withdrawal from the Trans-Pacific Partnership.

    There was also a broad statement that he would “cancel every unconstitutional executive action, memorandum and order issued by President Obama”.

    * * *

    Surprisingly, for all of Trump’s promises for executive action on his first day, he signed his first bill hours before his first executive order. Shortly after taking the oath of office Trump, signed a law that would give Gen James Mattis, his nominee for defense secretary, the needed waiver to serve in a ceremony in the Capitol. US law requires any potential defense secretary to have been retired from the military for seven years. Mattis retired from the marines in 2014.

    And, how greatly has the US nuclear posture changed in 200 days? Not much, I wager. Nor need it have, to provide any advantage towards addressing the “North Korea problem”. The US’s military assets of 1950 would likely be as relevant and effectively puissant as those of early 2017. What is needed (and that which we sorely lack), is a Commander-in-Chief who has the remotest knowledge of (or aptitude for -slash- interest in) learning how the world actually works[fn 1], and how things can gang aft agley.

    …………

    [fn 1: E.g., Hewitt: “Of the three legs of the triad, though, do you have a priority? I want to go to Sen. Rubio after that and ask him.”

    Trump: “I think – I think, for me, nuclear is just the power, the devastation is very important to me.”]

    Q! (267694)

  73. Crazy

    Ashcroft was absolutely involved in the deception!

    Truthbetold (1ab5c1)

  74. So was FISA court Judge Reggie Walton.

    Truthbetold (1ab5c1)

  75. Narc

    Nothing clever to say?

    Truthbetold (1ab5c1)

  76. Trump is like a Viking with a wooden sword. He makes a lot of noise without instilling true fear in his snorfeling enemies.

    Ben burn (12ab2c)

  77. Yes, because w threatened 60 years of deals, the organizer of vips Ray close, a minion of the kingdom, was the nephew of William eddy who brokered the deal with inn saud

    narciso (da1be9)

  78. Ben bern

    In your opinion, did Obama instill fear in our enemies

    Truthbetold (1ab5c1)

  79. Obama was tepid like Salad Nicoise whereas Trump is hot outside with a cold turd interior.

    Ben burn (12ab2c)

  80. that’s so disrespectful Mr. burn

    happyfeet (a037ad)

  81. Treacherous traitors Clinton and Obama gave the Norks billions in American cash and technology along with the time and diplomatic cover to develop nukes and the missiles to deliver them.

    Additionally, the Norks have been making blood-curdling threats and in general trafficking in what can only be called ‘saber rattling’ diplomacy since the U.N. ‘peace keeping’ mission ceased active military operations on the Korean Peninsula over 60 years ago.

    It’s well past time for the US to make it crystal clear that if the North Korean people are unable or unwilling to immediately replace their governing military dictatorship with a civilized and responsible national authority, America will take Nork threats as conclusive evidence of an imminent nuclear attack by North Korea upon our nation, our allies, and our national interests, and act accordingly.

    ropelight (072508)

  82. oops sorry i won’t comment anymore until i get moderatered

    happyfeet (a037ad)

  83. Federal authorities executed a search warrant on a home in Virginia belonging to former Trump campaign chairman Paul Manafort in the last two weeks, ABC News has learned. Sources told ABC News the search warrant, issued by the FBI, stems from the ongoing investigation by special counsel Robert Mueller into Russia’s meddling in the presidential election and possible collusion between the Trump campaign and the Russian government

    Ben burn (12ab2c)

  84. Ben bern

    “Obama was tepid”? It’s a well known fact that Obama loves bending over.

    Truthbetold (1ab5c1)

  85. GEN. LAWRENCE WILKERSON: I think we need to calm this down. This is not an existential crisis. It is not something we can’t handle, that the North Koreans, and the South Koreans, our allies, can’t handle. We do need to get away from this grandiose rhetoric that Donald Trump used today. This is like Donald Trump looking in the mirror in the morning and seeing Kim Jong-un and Jong Jon looking in the mirror and seeing Donald Trump. The problem is one of them is the dictator of a basket case country and the other is the president of the most powerful country in the world. In other words, this is not the way to conduct US Security policy.

    HAYES: You said, no joke, I read Trump’s statement on North Korea and thought it was a North Korean statement on Trump. Let’s talk about the North Korean regime. You mentioned something interesting. Putting some onus on them. There is a caricature of the regime being run by a madman and fundamentally irrational.

    WILKERSON: It hasn’t been true for any of the Kim dynasty. They’re very rational. Their singular objective is to maintain themselves in power. To keep drinking their Hennesseys, and continue to be the only power that matters in North Korea. That is a reality. That’s why it is not existential. They know if they were to attack the south in any blatant way, or anyone else in the region, they would disappear from the earth. It would be fire and fury. No American president could escape that. We had this same crisis in 1994. I was on the peninsula in 1994. I was there with the commander. I was there with Bill Perry. We negotiated and it led to the agreed framework and we froze their most dangerous nuclear program at the time. That’s what we need to do again. We need to talk and we need to be able as Bill Perry has appointed out, and willing to offer something. Like the exercises in August. We can offer that we would cancel those exercises or postpone them in exchange for a cancellation of ballistic missile testing or missile testing or both. Both sides need to calm down and we need to talk.

    Ben burn (b3d5ab)

  86. @74. I understand the linkage you’re making but like Russia-palooza I don’t believe we have enough information to harbor anything other than self-reinforcing suspicions. Perhaps Comey will fill in the blanks and tell-all about it in his forthcoming book(s).

    crazy (11d38b)

  87. oops sorry i won’t comment anymore

    One can only hope.

    Jack Klompus (f1f212)

  88. #82, also, I neglected to mention Trump should notify the JCS to move military readiness to DEFCON-3 at the first hint of Nork threats, and be prepared for DEFCON-2 on very short notice.

    This is not a drill.

    ropelight (072508)

  89. Rapelight can’t contain himself. SHOCK AND AWE! BABY..

    Ben burn (12ab2c)

  90. @87

    It’s not suspicions. The proof is all there. It’s just being suppressed

    Truthbetold (1ab5c1)

  91. Sorry rope..captcha.

    Ben burn (12ab2c)

  92. @82 & 89 (e.g., It’s well past time for the US to make it crystal clear . . .conclusive evidence . . . act accordingly)

    Wheeeeee!!!!! Don’t we all adore a feller who loves to dance like there’s no one watching -slash- no tomorrow!!!

    Q! (267694)

  93. War Hawks should be vetted for military service…and not Blumenthal/Reagan/Dubya service. Chickenhawks don’t fly…

    Ben burn (12ab2c)

  94. When the Trumpkins stop wetting their panties over their demented orange-skinned pansy’s bluff and bluster about North Korea, maybe he can give them a new orgasm by finding a baby he can threaten to kick.

    nk (dbc370)

  95. There’s nothing like calling a blustering popinnay’s bluff to bring out the weak-sisters.

    ropelight (072508)

  96. @89. You can bet the US and its partners are now hard at work trying to determine if Kim recognizes Trump’s fire and fury as a credible threat or just the same-old same-old from another American president. Tillerson’s making clear that we’re trying to denuclearize Kim with diplomacy backed by credible force not trap him with no way out but total war. Remaining at DEFCON 5 indicates we’re negotiating not threatening with a finger on the trigger.

    crazy (11d38b)

  97. You mean ‘fire and fury’ blustering pompinnays?

    Ben burn (12ab2c)

  98. The Secretary shall initiate a new Nuclear Posture Review to ensure that the United States nuclear deterrent is modern, robust, flexible, resilient, ready, and appropriately tailored to deter 21st-century threats and reassure our allies.

    https://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press-office/2017/01/27/presidential-memorandum-rebuilding-us-armed-forces

    Q! bert (fc6e7d)

  99. Unprecedented? Not hardly.

    “It shall be the policy of this nation to regard any nuclear missile launched from Cuba against any nation in the Western Hemisphere as an attack on the United States, requiring a full retaliatory response upon the Soviet Union. “

    JFK, in a similar situation (responding to a threatened capability, with nuclear weapons possibly in the hands of a madman (Castro)). And this was without any bellicose statements from the other side.

    Sure, Trump does not have the genteel and refined nature of a Kennedy, and is not nearly as smart, but to say that this level of rhetoric is unheard of is ahistorical.

    He did not say, for example that we’d retaliate against China, which in historical context would have been equivalent.

    Kevin M (752a26)

  100. Ask Stephen hatfill how that goes, after comedy and miller followed kristofs BFF musing (that would be Meryl mass and Susan hatch Rosenberg’s)

    narciso (d1f714)

  101. 95, well, if we can fast forward to Cotton, Ernst, Greitens, Gabbard and loathe to say, Duckworth, we’d be all good.

    urbanleftbehind (5eecdb)

  102. That was almost as bad as the deal with the senior Kim, and the rhodrs roadshow

    narciso (d1f714)

  103. So, Wilkerson’s idea is to kick the can a bit further down the road, by making an new agreement with the same regime that has cheated badly on all the previous agreements, until our last few options expire. Then they can say “Whoops! Now they have 50 thermonuclear ICBMs and we’ll just have to live with it” and shortly thereafter 20 more countries get their own bombs and missiles.

    The risk of nuclear weapons being used is a function of the number of nations having them. More than N, probably less than N^2. Call it N log N. There is also the danger of a small war growing, or even a cascade.

    No. Bite the bullet now. Barack Obama should have dealt with this — it got impossible on his watch — but every president since Bill Clinton deserves an increasing share of the blame. Now the least capable president since Harding has to carry out the trash. But it has to be done.

    Kevin M (752a26)

  104. #97, crazy, you missed my point. The time for second guessing is over, we shouldn’t engage in speculation on Nork intentions. It’s a foolish waste of time.

    Take them at their word, if they threaten us, our allies, or our national interests consider it a declaration of war and already be fully prepared to respond appropiately. That’s the smart play.

    If the little loud-mouth grenade with a bad haircut insists on picking a fight with Uncle Sam, then give him what he wants, and let the devil take him.

    The Earth has no use for his ilk.

    ropelight (072508)

  105. A world that can say with a straight face, a BMW attacked a finch military checkpoint Alan kit or maximum overdrive or kit, is nit serios

    narciso (d1f714)

  106. It should be no surprise that there are THAAD installations on Guam. Our response should be “Take your best shot.” Or perhaps, “Do you feel lucky, punk?”

    Kevin M (752a26)

  107. The problem knish is that north Korea is still an independent actor from china. Somewhat like Cuba was in 1962 via a via kryschev

    narciso (d1f714) — 8/8/2017 @ 9:29 pm

    Then we need to get China to squash NorK into dependency, somehow.

    As I said above, I don’t know if there is a good solution to this problem. It may boil down to trying to find the least bad solution.

    kishnevi (bb03e6)

  108. Remaining at DEFCON 5 indicates we’re negotiating not threatening with a finger on the trigger.

    Yes, we are not on a worldwide alert (DEFCON being a relic of the Cold War). But I am going to bet that US facilities in Korea, Japan and now on Guam are in a state of heightened readiness and someone has inspected shelters, broomed out the cobwebs and checked the supplies.

    Kevin M (752a26)

  109. Trump is the kind of guy who lets out all his sail and then puffs to make his own wind. But at least he’s stopped talking about primarying Republicans. For now.

    nk (dbc370)

  110. It can’t be done, we’ve been kicking the can down for 20 years.

    narciso (d1f714)

  111. It can’t be done, we’ve been kicking the can down for 20 years.

    No more road. Just cliff.

    Kevin M (752a26)

  112. North Korean Leader says something stupid and blustery and aggressive. Trumpkins say “Bad!”

    American Leader says something stupid and blustery and aggressive. Trumpkins say “Good!”

    We suffer from a serious lack of self-examination in this country. Has North Korea ever used a nuclear weapon on anyone? Chemical or biological weapons? How many countries around the world have access to WMD stockpiles that dwarf North Korea’s? The only difference is the tone of their diplomacy – but because Americans only hear bluster and don’t actually think about world affairs, they’re suddenly terrified of North Korean missiles.

    Leviticus (efada1)

  113. Leviticus

    Are you advocating nukes for everyone?

    Truthbetold (1ab5c1)

  114. I’m advocating reflexivity and deep breathes. You think Kim Jong-un wants to die anymore than the next spoiled dictator?

    Leviticus (efada1)

  115. North Korean Leader says something stupid and blustery and aggressive. Trumpkins say “Bad!”

    Does this mean Never-Trumpkins say “Good!” when an NK leader says he is going to blow up the US and its territories?

    Q! bert (fc6e7d)

  116. @117

    If someone points a gun at you, do you take a deep breath and wait for them to pull the trigger?

    Truthbetold (1ab5c1)

  117. What the heck does reflexivity mean, saul goodman?

    narciso (d1f714)

  118. 108, that brings me back to the diner scene in Sudden Impact – but in this application, who, of SK, Japan, and even the Pinoys, crazy as the head man is, putting the equivalent of 1,000 packets of sugar in Det. Callahans coffee so that he goes back to complain and confront?

    urbanleftbehind (5eecdb)

  119. #97 & 110, crazy & KM, it’s not the US making threats, it’s the Norks. Trump’s ‘fire and fury’ statement was a needed and measured response to an extended string of outrageous Nork threats, it was an attempt to deter additional precipitous Nork threats by describing the inevitable consequences.

    Half-wits can try to mislabel Trump’s statement as a ‘threat’ and lump him in with the fat Korean dictator, but that dog won’t hunt. Yet, fools rush in, it’s their stock-in-trade, and their signature response to unpalatable truths (like Algore’s home use of 21 times the electricity of an average Tennessee residence). Just sayin’

    Trump should notify both Russia and China (along with the NY Times and the WaPo) to keep clear of any interference in an upcoming armed conflict between the US and Nork in order to prevent being defined as enemy belligerents and being treated accordingly.

    ropelight (072508)

  120. Mirroring is the problem that lbj had with who chi Minh , carter had with khomeini, Truman had with .a, assuming we are motivated by the same incentives

    narciso (d1f714)

  121. “I am tired and sick of war. Its glory is all moonshine. It is only Putin’s cock holsters who have neither fired a shot nor heard the shrieks and groans of the wounded who cry aloud for blood, for vengeance, for desolation. War is hell.” — William Tecumseh Sherman

    [Sherman might have said “those” instead of “Putin’s cock holsters”.]

    nk (dbc370)

  122. Seeing the results of a failed Soviet State has taken decades, but the nostalgia about Cold War has given way to the need for hit wars that end decisively.

    Wait. Did the Thousand Year Reich actually fail, or has it been sleeping like the Soviet?”

    Reminded me of something I read recently:

    The difference between naziism and communism is that when you say how horrible naziism has been, no one argues that real naziism has just never been tried

    harkin (aca8cf)

  123. Sherman re his Bo, want ceazynabout journalists, Matt’s is more of an Omar Bradley type

    narciso (d1f714)

  124. “What the heck does reflexivity mean, saul goodman?”

    – narciso

    It means “self-examination” or “reflectiveness.”

    Leviticus (efada1)

  125. I found the pottery barn metaphor didastriusly out of step with the Iraq reality, the sunnus i guess somewhat like the settler forebears took the land of the native majority, after a decent interval (and we lecture Israel) the resources under neath it, they drove the shia and the Kurd out of public life with the baath and the golden ssquare.Many of the latter group formed the base of the communist party the others the da’wa and the Sciri

    narciso (d1f714)

  126. “If someone points a gun at you, do you take a deep breath and wait for them to pull the trigger?”

    – Truthbetold

    I don’t know – I’ve never been in that situation. Probably take a deep breath and hope they don’t pull the trigger.

    I suppose you’d shoot them first and faster, like Doc Holliday? Or maybe shoot the gun out of their hand?

    Anyway, of all the “guns” that are “pointed at us,” North Koreas are the smallest and least reliable. They just talk loud and say stupid, aggressive, nonsensical things. If having a leader who talked loud and said stupid, aggressive, nonsensical things was grounds for a nuclear war, our country would have been a smoking crater months ago.

    Leviticus (efada1)

  127. Leviticus

    Is that the approach you advocate for anyone and everyone who wishes to become a nuclear player?

    Truthbetold (1ab5c1)

  128. @122 (dopelight) You sure seem to like the word accordingly. I do not think it means what you think it means. Or maybe it does, and it’s only that most everything else that you say just ain’t so . . .

    Q! (267694)

  129. If having a leader who talked loud and said stupid, aggressive, nonsensical things was grounds for a nuclear war, our country would have been a smoking crater months ago.

    The preferred leader says:
    “We came, we saw, he died!”

    Q! bert (fc6e7d)

  130. Russia oozes back on to the front page; news of a FBI raid on a Manafort residence breaks.

    What say you, oh Captain?

    “The Grand Duchy of Fenwick best not make any more threats to the United States. They will be met with fire and fury like the world has never seen.”

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  131. Happened back on the 26rh, who does that date ring a bell.

    narciso (d1f714)

  132. I’ve been the one with a gun pointed at me. Then, when the trigger was pulled I was the one who got shot.

    The guy who shot me is dead now. I could more easily be the one pushing up daisies, but I was lucky and he had a fatal flaw.

    At cusp you must act rightly.

    ropelight (072508)

  133. Leviticus

    It’s your way of thinking that allowed NK to get the nukes.

    Truthbetold (1ab5c1)

  134. It’s your way of acting without thinking that gets innocent people killed.

    Leviticus (efada1)

  135. Nukes don’t kill people. People kill people.

    Leviticus (efada1)

  136. That was the day after his hearing on capital hill, also the 64th anniversary of fidels,coup attempt.

    narciso (d1f714)

  137. #136, Tbt, they always yelp the loudest when you hit the bullseye. Full points.

    ropelight (072508)

  138. No the forty years of Soviet and Chinese support for yong byon did that.

    narciso (d1f714)

  139. And it’s time for the bad people in NK to be dealt with harshly

    Truthbetold (1ab5c1)

  140. Narc

    Are you saying that the peanut farmer and Clinton were forced to do what the did?

    Truthbetold (1ab5c1)

  141. @134- Faux Newz reiterated ol’Spicey’s bogus boast that the Ukraine-paided Manafort had very limited input in Trump’s campaign for six months in 2016– even though he was campaign manager. But July 26– was that the day Faux learned Eric Bolling was auditioning for the lead in the off-Broadway play, ‘Junk’?

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  142. Leviticus

    How will you deal with the Twelvers in Iran?

    Truthbetold (1ab5c1)

  143. @123. Mirroring is the problem that lbj had with who chi Minh…

    Meh. LBJ believed he could buy-off that Ho w/a few dams and hydroelectric plants. As if the NVA could be pacified w/a TVA.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  144. > In terms of laying out the response, it is what he said. I know you don’t like the guy but being stuck on the phrasing is not useful.

    One of the things that amazes me about Trump supporters is how quickly they are willing to go to “yeah, but he really meant THIS, the ACTUAL WORDS he used don’t matter”.

    How do you *know* what he really meant, if you’re going to discount and ignore the actual words?

    Basically every time I hear that, I think what the speaker is actually saying is “$THIS is what I want him to have meant, so I’m going to assume he meant it regardless of what he said.”

    aphrael (e0cdc9)

  145. What did Obama mean when he drew a red line?

    Truthbetold (1ab5c1)

  146. Ropelight, at 122:

    The problem I have with the fire and fury statement is that, as worded, it says: “if the North Koreans keep *threatening* us, we will rain fire and fury down upon them.”

    That’s a very, very, very, very different statement from “If the North Koreans ever act on these threats they’re making, we will rain fire and fury down upon them.”

    The second statement has been US policy for as long as I’ve been alive. The first is a massive policy *shift* — suddenly the making of threats itself is worthy of a response.

    aphrael (e0cdc9)

  147. Yes that was an example, but it illustrates the problem policy makers had halberstsm relied in part on journalistic colleagues who were nva who shared their insights with the likes of Holbrooke and Harriman

    narciso (d1f714)

  148. aphrael

    The comments are for China’s ears as well.

    Truthbetold (1ab5c1)

  149. Yes appalled remember your bff Obama pledged to negotiate with Iran cuba and North Korea how did that work outm

    narciso (d1f714)

  150. How do you *know* what he really meant, if you’re going to discount and ignore the actual words?

    You must really be amazed at #73 after reading #99.

    Q! bert (fc6e7d)

  151. Obama was harder on names Rosen then he was on north korea.

    narciso (d1f714)

  152. @105. I understood your point. I just don’t think we’re there yet. Time will tell. Kevin’s addition @110 is exactly right – resolute and prepared. I find it interesting that Obama made sure to let Trump know would find this to be both a tough nut to crack and problem number one on day one. Looking back over the last 200 days the administration’s efforts to put together the Arab coalition to complicate Iran’s plans, Mar a Lago dinner show cruise missile attack on Syrian WMD capability with Xi, and ramped up training and deployments to the region all fit together to lay the ground work for what’s happening right now. The region and world are watching. Determining whether Kim and others recognize this as a credible threat is the key to denuclearizing Kim without war. China and Russia monitor our movements and alert levels. Raising our overall defense posture is unnecessary and communicates to them we’re serious and ready but still looking for a peaceful solution.

    crazy (11d38b)

  153. @153 — Heavens above, “Q! bert” (You little copycat, you! What a scamp you are!) what in heavens can you possibly mean when you write You must really be amazed at #73 after reading #99? Please, be as explicit & as forthright as possible. (Points off for enigmatic references and word salad.)

    Q! (267694)

  154. Leviticus – I don’t think that the dictator of North Korea wants to die.

    That said, nuclear proliferation is per se dangerous because the more people have them, the more likely it is that *something* will go wrong because there are more opportunities for something to go wrong. And since I know that North Korea often negotiates via threat, I don’t relish the idea of the city where I live becoming more vulnerable to those threats.

    That said, I don’t think that responding to North Korea’s bombastic bluster with more bombastic bluster is the right solution; it ratchets up the tension and the risk rather than ratcheting it down.

    But I was outvoted on this subject — I think everyone who voted for Trump *knew* that this is how he conducts himself, and that’s what the voters chose.

    aphrael (e0cdc9)

  155. I don’t understand comment #153 at all, and it doesn’t seem responsive to the comment of mine that I quoted, so I’m going to ignore it. :)

    aphrael (e0cdc9)

  156. You have to ignore it to fake consistency.

    No problem.

    Q! bert (fc6e7d)

  157. Truthbetold – Obama was apparently bluffing and hoping that the bluff would carry the day and be sufficient to persuade Assad’s behavior to change.

    aphrael (e0cdc9)

  158. Q! bert: I observe that I don’t understand something, and your response is to say that I am faking consistency?

    Would you mind detailing the evidence you have that supports the allegation that I am faking consistency?

    Or should I simply conclude now that you’re a dishonorable debater who isn’t interested in conversation so much as in making assumptions about people and then making unfounded accusations based on those assumptions?

    aphrael (e0cdc9)

  159. #149, aphreal, yes, exactly. The making of threats is conclusive grounds for retaliation. You understand correctly.

    ropelight (072508)

  160. Kevin M – certainly if the North Koreans have the temerity to attack Guam, rather than simply verbally threatening it, I expect retaliation to be swift. This isn’t a line we can back down from and come out of it with *any* credibility anywhere.

    aphrael (e0cdc9)

  161. aphrael

    Do you think please will work with the NK situation?

    Truthbetold (1ab5c1)

  162. #99 has a quote that is detrimental to your #73, Q!. It is pretty obvious. You need to change your gripe slightly to say “Things that happened in the 1st .005% of a new administration don’t count as ‘the first order.'”

    Then you will clearly win a non-consequential word game while still being wrong about Trump’s claim on the status of the US nuclear weapons programs.

    Q! bert (fc6e7d)

  163. Ropelight, at 149: that’s a change in US position, which has historically been that we’ll ignore threats unless you act on them.

    Ignoring threats that aren’t acted on strikes me as the correct behavior pretty much regardless of who you are dealing with, unless the actor in question either (a) is in a position of power relative to you and can abuse that power to interfere with your ability to respond to action, or (b) has a history of acting on such threats.

    Threatening words are just words.

    So what’s the *gain* for *anyone* in threatening retaliation for words (rather than for actions)?

    aphrael (e0cdc9)

  164. Mangled that last sentence @155.

    Raising our overall defense posture is unnecessary. Remaining at DEFCON 5 overall with heightened readiness in theatre communicates to them we’re serious and ready but still pursuing a peaceful solution.

    crazy (11d38b)

  165. Q! bert, what are you talking about? I am not Q!, and I did not write #73.

    Your comment about the relationship between #73 and #99 included a snipped quote from my #147. I don’t understand how the relationship between 73 and 99 is relevant to my comment at 147, and I don’t understand why my confusion on that score indicates that I am feigning consistency.

    Usually when people conflate me with someone else it’s because of a visual similarity in our handles, but that’s not the case here.

    aphrael (e0cdc9)

  166. #161, you said:One of the things that amazes me about Trump supporters is how quickly they are willing to go to “yeah, but he really meant THIS, the ACTUAL WORDS he used don’t matter”.

    How do you *know* what he really meant, if you’re going to discount and ignore the actual words?

    #73 is completely wrong and and did exactly what completely amazes you about Trump supporters. #99 shows that the actual words are not as #73 suggests. He has gone so far as to suggest that the words don’t even exist. If this style of debate truly bothered you, you would have seen it as soon as you read both posts I provided and admonished Q!. I assume you didn’t because he is on your side.

    Q! bert (fc6e7d)

  167. Truthbetold, @164: No. I think that the North Korean government is a pariah state whose security interests require it to obtain warheadizable nuclear weapons because otherwise it cannot deter its enemies, who are legion (given that it’s a pariah state), and I think that US national security depends on it not having those weapons.

    For a long time I thought that bringing North Korea into the world so that it no longer felt like an outcast pariah state, and therefore found the world less threatening, would reduce their need for a nuclear deterrent. But that hasn’t worked so far, and the window for it is rapidly closing.

    That said, threatening them over their *words* isn’t helpful. Let them say what they want, their words are irrelevant — but draw a line in the sand on attacks.

    aphrael (e0cdc9)

  168. The same mirroring problem, I’ve read enough Bruce Cummings and xhalmer kohnson to know the hermit kingdom has a burning hatred for the near enemy in the south, and the farther one in Japan and the us.

    narciso (d1f714)

  169. Ah, thank you for the answer and explanation.

    My comment #147 was actually a response to #23, and I only skimmed everything between #23 and #147. #73 didn’t stand out as noticeable in the noise, and it wasn’t posted by an account name I recognize as a regular, so I *didn’t even read it* until after you called it out, and my reaction after you called it out was still “this is an argument about a triviality; why should I care?”

    aphrael (e0cdc9)

  170. aphrael

    Who are NK’s enemies?

    Truthbetold (1ab5c1)

  171. “this is an argument about a triviality; why should I care?”

    Because words matter.

    Q! bert (fc6e7d)

  172. How many missile tests in the last year, aphrael?

    narciso (d1f714)

  173. Truthbetold: from the perspective of North Korea? Everyone in the world except China and Pakistan, but particularly South Korea, Japan, the United States, and Russia.

    Note that I’m *not* saying that it’s objectively true that these countries are North Korea’s enemies — I’m saying that this is how the North Korean state views the world — which matters because you cannot reasonably predict their response to our actions if you don’t have a grasp of their world view. :)

    I suspect they blame us for their international isolation and so we’re enemy #2 in their world. But that’s less important than the fact that they live in a world where they feel like they can trust virtually nobody, and that virtually nobody is willing to promise to leave them alone.

    aphrael (e0cdc9)

  174. Q! bert: while words matter, I don’t have time to take notice of everyone’s words; nobody does. I’ll notice the President’s words, because he’s the President; I’ll notice the words of my friends, and of people I recognize and have respect for; and words spoken on specific subjects that catch my attention.

    #73 met none of those criteria.

    aphrael (e0cdc9)

  175. 27. narciso (d1f714) — 8/9/2017 @ 4:32 am

    Reform of north Korea, is a Gordian knot, who is a Walesa or or su ki among them,

    Nobody but we don;t need one, any more than one was needed in East Germany. There’s too little freedom in North Korea for theer to be anyone like that.

    otherwise we would be left with the less corrupt general.

    We don’t need to be looking for less corrupt. In fact more corrupt would be better, because that probably also means less bloodthirsty, less reckless and less cruel. Corruption ameliorates tyranny and is North Korea greatest hope.

    We saw how putting in a muzhik like Yeltsin didn’t silver the problem, he hired junior nomenklatura like summers pal schreiber to look the country

    look = loot?

    with his associates who became the oligarchs. Midlevel officials in the security services became the men if power, the siliviki, the head one was putin. The situation resembled the time of troubles before the rise of the ivans

    There were people who still had an interest in covering up evils done during Soviet times.

    Sammy Finkelman (02a146)

  176. That is fine, aphrael. But you might now wonder less why Trump supporters comments are so amazing when you choose to ignore the adversarial Trump detractors amazing comments.

    Q! bert (fc6e7d)

  177. @165. I appreciate the straightforwardness of your reply. It allows me to note that you are (specifically, and overall) wrong in what you write – which of course is another matter entirely.
    In this vein, (1) in English (as in many other languages) words have conventional meanings. My first order as President means “In my first order as President” – not “In one of many orders (of which I am so very proud) that I issued in my first week as President”; (2) Of course, the referenced order/memorandum did not itself effect any changes in the nuclear posture of the United States, nor is there any evidence that I am aware of that to this date any substantive change has resulted (much less any relevant & meaningful substantive change) on the heels of that order/memorandum. Notwithstanding this, you may recall that what His Greatness tweeted this morning read as follows (again, bringing to your attention, that English words have conventional meanings): My first order as President was to renovate and modernize our nuclear arsenal. It is now far stronger and more powerful than ever before….. In this vein (and to make sense of the inclusion of the first sentence to begin with), one is clearly justified (and indeed compelled) to read the word “Consequently” into the beginning of the second sentence. Yet this is nonsense. No meaningful change has been effected.

    Moreover, of course, as I stated earlier, it is nonsense (-slash- meaningless bluster -slash- aimless self-aggrandizement -slash- ritual self-abuse, etc.) in the sense that the 1950 US Military had (for any relevant intent or purpose) as much capacity to obliterate NK as does the US Military that His Greatness inherited (or – to speak of a unicorn – as the US Military that He has re-built).

    Q! (267694)

  178. aphrael

    So your saying NK needs nukes to deter imaginary enemies.

    Is that correct?

    Truthbetold (1ab5c1)

  179. Talk about a word salad. Zero points awarded.

    Q! bert (fc6e7d)

  180. I’m saying that North Korea is the only country in the world which is technically at war with the entire international community (the Korean War was authorized by the UN Security Council, after all, and while the fighting stopped with an armistice, the war itself has never technically ended), and so it has a deeply set fear that its security is at stake at all times, and I’m saying that *in general* threatening people who are operating from that psychological position makes things worse, not better.

    aphrael (e0cdc9)

  181. aphrael @166, 170

    So what’s the *gain* for *anyone* in threatening retaliation for words (rather than for actions)?

    The New York Daily News in an editorial today assumed that Trump used imprecise language.

    http://www.nydailynews.com/opinion/kim-jong-choice-article-1.3394876

    Within hours of that report, President Trump went before the cameras in New Jersey to warn that “North Korea best not make any more threats of the United States,” or else “They will be met with fire, fury and frankly power, the likes of which this world has never seen before.”

    The President’s unhelpfully imprecise language aside — surely it would be Kim’s use of nuclear weapons, not his now-routine threat to unleash them, that would provoke an overwhelming American military response — the U.S., and the world, are approaching a reckoning.

    That said, threatening them over their *words* isn’t helpful. Let them say what they want, their words are irrelevant — but draw a line in the sand on attacks.

    aphrael (e0cdc9) — 8/9/2017 @ 12:19 pm

    `That said, threatening them over their *words* isn’t helpful. Let them say what they want, their words are irrelevant — but draw a line in the sand on attacks.

    I think Trump was being deliberately imprecise, because he’s thinking of asuroprise attack. He does not intend to retaliate. Kim is not consideed deterrable. So he is going to do it before they drop a bomb.

    Now by “threat” read “military threat” You can threaten with deeds, or deployment, or mobilization as well with words. Trump is not threatening to punish them for words. He’s threatening to take action when the threat looks real. Words may play a part in that, but also military preparations.

    Another thing:

    Trump never said he would use nuclear weapons on North Korea. He said they will be met with fire and fury. This probably means amassive conventional attack, onn many locations all at once, especially aimed at decapitation of the regime and diaabling of their ability to harm civilians and miitary in South Korea. All at once.

    Sammy Finkelman (02a146)

  182. If North Korea was trying to protect itself it would not be making itself more of amilkitary threat. We left them alone for nearly 65 years.

    Sammy Finkelman (02a146)

  183. nor is there any evidence that I am aware of

    IOW, you don’t have access to the evidence, or you have not done thorough research?

    There are two bits of evidence. 1) the statement of the President’s in January,that you were ignorant of, and that you are now trying to discredit because of a word game. 2)The CIC says it has improved. Can’t get a better witness than that.

    All you have is that you think he is lying based off of evidence you aren’t privy to. LOL

    Q! bert (fc6e7d)

  184. Trump is always lying, or distorting things in some way. The question is, in what way is he lying? You have to apply common sense. It’s an art, and not a science.

    Trump now said:

    “My first order as President was to renovate and modernize our nuclear arsenal,” he tweeted. “It is now far stronger and more powerful than ever before.” “Hopefully we will never have to use this power, but there will never be a time that we are not the most powerful nation in the world!”

    It probably – or maybe certainly – wasn’t his first order but it was early. And actually he had decided that before he became president. There was a tweet about it in December.

    Feb 23:

    http://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-trump-exclusive-idUSKBN1622IF

    Of course it is probably not now stronger than before, althoughh it might be heading in that direction. And the statement that there will never be a time that we are not the most powerful nation in the world is a vow, probably sincerely made, althouh of course he can’t affect what happens in the coming centuries.

    Very often Trump’s words are the second cousin to the truth. Some other times, he says things for effect. You just have to get good at it. A lot of the times you know what the truth is.

    Sammy Finkelman (02a146)

  185. “Oh, we’ll all go together when we go…”

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TIoBrob3bjI

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  186. 163. aphrael (e0cdc9) — 8/9/2017 @ 12:11 pm

    certainly if the North Koreans have the temerity to attack Guam, rather than simply verbally threatening it, I expect retaliation to be swift. This isn’t a line we can back down from and come out of it with *any* credibility anywhere.

    I don’t think Trump has any intention of waiting till they actually drop a bomb on or near Guam.

    Capability will be enough.

    Sammy Finkelman (02a146)

  187. Right now the strategy (per Tillerson) is to try to convince Kim that we don’t want to overthrow him, which is of course nonsense and he’s not the kind of fool to believe that.

    And even if he did, he knows we, and South Korea, might change our mind after we heard some more of the horrible things that he has done.

    Security based on keeping things secret is not truly stable.

    If we didn’t care about human rights at all, and if we didn’t care about protection allies maybe he he might believe that.

    Now, is he to believe that we care about human rights and democracy in Venezuela and in Syria and not in North Korea?

    Right now we say our hope is that Kim Jong Un will be no worse than Bashar Assad.

    Clearly this is a non-starter.

    What we can say is that yes, of course we want to overthrow him. What decent person wouldn’t want to do it?

    But why don’t we? Because of the cost in lives and property destruction.

    Threatening the United States more, though, won’t protect him.

    This is like a hostage situation. Police don’t arrest the hostage takers because of avoidance of bloodshed.

    But should the hostage takers threaten real calamity then we move in regardless. You can tell Kim Jong Un that arming himself more will make him less safe, not more.

    Sammy Finkelman (02a146)

  188. #166, aphreal, in the past there was world enough and time to wait to determine if verbal threats were just hollow words or real actions. However, modern military tchnology has rendered the interval between missile launch and nuclear impact to something close to 30 minutes. There’s now wofully insufficient time for armchair examinations of the various pros and cons of inactivity.

    Consequently, a nuclear armed opponent with extended-range missile capability (especially a rogue dictatorship with a long standing and ongoing record of belligerence) can not be ignored or subjected to a wait-an-see complacency.

    In the atomic age, ICBM’s make threats of nuclear attack tantamount to the attack on Pearl Harbor.

    ropelight (072508)

  189. Now don’t assume taht Kim Jong Un doesn’t know that.

    He has the nuclear weapons because he wants to take over South Korea, not for defense.

    His general plan is probably to deter the United States from intervening in a second Korean War by threatening the continental United States. More, by dropping a bomb on Guam and on Japan he will prevent the sending of reinforcements because he thinks the United States will not want to send any troops through a radioactively contaminated zone.

    He’s probably got some generals telling him this.

    Sammy Finkelman (02a146)

  190. The Japanese thought that attacking Pearl Harbor would keeop the United States out of the war in Asia.

    Kim Jong Un probably has a similar idea.

    Sammy Finkelman (02a146)

  191. > In the atomic age, ICBM’s make threats of nuclear attack tantamount to the attack on Pearl Harbor.

    It’s a good thing that none of Kennedy, Johnson, Nixon, Ford, Carter, Reagan, nor Bush agreed with you on that.

    aphrael (e0cdc9)

  192. I was musing on the problem of reforming totalitarian regimes based on the soviet Chinese and Iraqi models

    narciso (d1f714)

  193. Ninth Korea didn’t have a deliverable nuclear weapons in range until now, we had mad for forty years with the soviets

    narciso (d1f714)

  194. aphrael, I think you will find that “It’s a good thing that none of Kennedy, Johnson, Nixon, Ford, Carter, Reagan, nor Bush agreed with you on that.” is not really a correct statement of history. Neither of strategic nuclear doctrine, nor of the actions of the presidents you reference. An example, Kennedy got very close to starting a nuclear war with the Soviet Union because the Soviet Union stationed nuclear capable IRBM’s close to the US in Cuba. Ropelight’s comment is hyperbolic but no where near as inaccurate as you want to claim.

    In strategic nuclear doctrine, a lot of concepts become inverted from what would appear to be normal sense such as what “First Strike weapons” are, and what deterrence is.

    SPQR (a3a747)

  195. ropelight (072508) — 8/9/2017 @ 1:42 pm

    In the atomic age, ICBM’s make threats of nuclear attack tantamount to the attack on Pearl Harbor.

    aphrael (e0cdc9) — 8/9/2017 @ 1:51 pm

    It’s a good thing that none of Kennedy, Johnson, Nixon, Ford, Carter, Reagan, nor Bush agreed with you on that.

    Kennedy thought missiles in Cuba were a problem, because theer would be too limited a time to react and make a decision. Reagan thought the whole idea of retaliation was not good, and decided to build acapability to shoot missiles down.

    Sammy Finkelman (02a146)

  196. SPQR, while there’s something to that, it’s *also* true that *none* of them responded to Soviet verbal threats with the threat that if the verbal threats didn’t stop, we would attack the Soviets — which is what Trump did yesterday to the North Koreans, and what ropelight appears to be arguing is *required* given the existence of ICBMs.

    aphrael (e0cdc9)

  197. You don’t reform totalitarian regimes – you replace them, although that maybe could be done without a legal break.

    Sammy Finkelman (02a146)

  198. You cannot replace totalitarian regimes successfully from the outside; trying that gets you contemporary Iraq and Libya. At best, you have to help internal forces bring them down, as was successfully done in such disparate places as Portugal and Russia.

    aphrael (e0cdc9)

  199. “President Trump was informed of the growing threat last December and on taking office his first orders to me emphasized the readiness of our ballistic missile defense and nuclear deterrent forces.”

    ~ U.S. Secretary of Defense, General James Mattis

    https://twitter.com/amanda_m_macias/status/895325176501460993

    “…his first orders…”

    More evidence for you to toss in your word salad maker, Q!.

    Tough day for you.

    Q! bert (fc6e7d)

  200. If Kim doesn’t intend to use the nuclear bombs, he’ll stop it with the threats, although the reverse is not true.

    Sammy Finkelman (02a146)

  201. You want to do it in five years when they have warheads all over the place, every one of them pointing to New York City and Washington. Or do you want to do something now?

    – Donald Trump.

    About the North Korean nuclear threat.

    In 1999.

    When interviewed by Tim Russert on Meet the Press
    https://www.cnbc.com/2017/08/09/trump-once-said-hed-negotiate-like-crazy-with-north-korea.html

    http://www.businessinsider.com/trump-1999-interview-north-korea-tim-russert-meet-press-2017-8

    In his first run for president (he wanted the nomination of Ross Perot;s Reform Party, but dropped out because he saw he couldn’t get it, complaining that people like David Duuke were involved.)

    Some of this sounds very familiar. Like Donald Trump talking about people we are negotiating with “laughing at us.”

    Reality may at last have caught up to Donald Trump’s fantasy.

    Sammy Finkelman (02a146)

  202. I’ll be honest, I think the time to strike North Korea has come. They have miniaturized nukes, and missiles. We shouldn’t tolerate it. A plan should be developed to eliminate as much of their military infrastructure as possible in a massive strike. I think Trump is referencing this kind of plan with his ranting, and I kinda like the idea that our decades of writing stern letters might change a little bit.

    It’s August, and the North Koreans will have great difficulty mobilizing because the rice paddies are not frozen. Now is the time. Yeah, there will be a high human cost, but I wish we’d done this years ago, and if we don’t do it now, we will sorely wish we had one day. These guys aren’t going to stop until terrorists buy a nuclear weapon and use it.

    Dustin (ba94b2)

  203. Trump was wound-up and released…if only he were a Chinook salmon.

    Ben burn (02b525)

  204. “Yeah, there will be a high human cost, but I wish we’d done this years ago, and if we don’t do it now, we will sorely wish we had one day. ”

    Dustin: THAT is the message everyone is getting. Slow down…we may agree to go there, but it’s not the imminent threat being sold.

    Ben burn (02b525)

  205. Hence I was cindering the way to provide aasutance to any dissidents , but they’ve seen this movie hence the reaction. To hat Ohio college student

    narciso (d1f714)

  206. The Ohio college student wasn’t even a dissident. At most he was irritated by all those proaganda posters and decided to pull one down. Maybe he just wanted a souvenir to show someone. After all North Korea had not been touted to him as not being a dangerous place.

    Sammy Finkelman (02a146)

  207. Clearly Xi doesn’t think NK is there yet. Why are they quiet? They’d rather the US step on their dong, and that wound will get infected. They can sit back and enjoy.

    https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.express.co.uk/news/world/796394/North-Korea-Kim-Jong-un-Donald-Trump-America-China-Xi-Jinping-nuclear-war/amp

    Ben burn (02b525)

  208. Yes he was just a bystander recruited by a German Marxist anatchust cult, but they couldnt take a chance with warmbuer

    narciso (d1f714)

  209. There are two things said still to be lacking in North Korea’s atomic weapons threat:

    1) A method for the bomb to survive re-entry.

    2) An accurate guidance system.

    Sammy Finkelman (02a146)

  210. True Sammy. Let’s not be bum- rushed into something akin to, but much, much worse than Iraq.

    Ben burn (02b525)

  211. aphrael, JFK threatened to attack Cuba if the missiles were not moved from Cuba … even as we had placed Jupiter IRBM’s along the Soviet Union’s southern border in Turkey. Frankly, a pretty bold threat of itself.

    SPQR (a3a747)

  212. Breaking– NK now in league w/late night TV comedians;

    North Korean military issues mocking response to ‘Fire and Fury’ Trump; details missile attack plans on Guam.

    Ball’s in your court, Captain. Wanna drop that dye marker now, Ol’Yellowstain?

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  213. It’s not like the Cuban missile crisis of 1962. It’s totally ridiculous to compare it to that.

    It’s like the bombing of Serbia in 1998, on the pretext of Kosovo, in order to wag dog for the Monica Lewinsky scandal. In this instance, a distraction from the Russia investigation.

    The difference from 1998 is that, at that time, Russia was weak and could not come to the aid of its friend and ally, Serbia. China is not weak and if Trump is not careful they’ll take away Ivanka’s trademarks.

    nk (dbc370)

  214. nk, you can do better than that.

    SPQR (a3a747)

  215. The interesting part about that was rfk used a backchannel who was ostensibly a tass journalist (snorfle) wee actually a guru operative who misled him about bolshakov.

    narciso (d1f714)

  216. Anadyr the. Missile placement in Cuba.

    narciso (d1f714)

  217. 217.It’s not like the Cuban missile crisis of 1962. It’s totally ridiculous to compare it to that.

    Precisely.

    And anybody who tries too is venting ignorance.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  218. Someone missed this detail in a detail oriented(?) Admin

    CNN

    Unarmed Russian Air Force jet overflies the Pentagon, Capitol, CIA
    By Jon Ostrower, Peter Morris and Noah Gray, CNN

    Updated 5:30 PM ET, Wed August 9, 2017
    Unarmed Russian jet flies over Washington
    US President Barack Obama (R) meets his Russian counterpart Vladimir Putin (L) in Los Cabos, Mexico, on June 18, 2012, during the G20 leaders Summit. Obama met today Putin at a G20 summit to discuss differences over what to do about the bloody conflict in Syria. AFP PHOTO/ RIA-NOVOSTI POOL / ALEXEI NIKOLSKY (Photo credit should read ALEXEI NIKOLSKY/AFP/GettyImages)
    Is this the new Cold War?

    Russian spy released from prison and deported
    US President Barack Obama (R) listens to Russian President Vladimir Putin after their bilateral meeting in Los Cabos, Mexico on June 18, 2012 on the sidelines of the G20 summit. Obama and President Vladimir Putin met Monday, for the first time since the Russian leader's return to the presidency, for talks overshadowed by a row over Syria. The closely watched meeting opened half-an-hour late on the sidelines of the G20 summit of developed and developing nations, as the US leader sought to preserve his "reset" of ties with Moscow despite building disagreements. AFP PHOTO/Jewel Samad (Photo credit should read JEWEL SAMAD/AFP/Getty Images)
    Obama orders Russian hacking probe

    McCain: People are ‘giving up on the West’
    Russian President Vladimir Putin (R) greets his Syrian counterpart Bashar al-Assad upon his arrival for a meeting at the Kremlin in Moscow on October 20, 2015. Assad, on his first foreign visit since Syria's war broke out, told his main backer and counterpart Putin in Moscow that Russia's campaign in Syria has helped contain "terrorism". / AFP / RIA NOVOSTI / ALEXEY DRUZHININ (Photo credit should read ALEXEY DRUZHININ/AFP/Getty Images)
    What are Russia’s objectives in Syria?

    Senators promise Russian sanctions

    Is this the most powerful man in the world?

    The Cold War: Then and now

    Unarmed Russian jet flies over Washington

    Russia government plane approached by NATO jet
    US President Donald Trump holds a joint press conference with his Polish counterpart at the Royal Castle in Warsaw, Poland, July 6, 2017. / AFP PHOTO / SAUL LOEB (Photo credit should read SAUL LOEB/AFP/Getty Images)
    WH: Trump to sign Russia sanctions bill
    Russian President Vladimir Putin speak to the media after touring the Hannover Messe 2013 industrial trade fair on April 8, 2013 in Hanover, Germany. Merkel and Putin toured the fair, which is the world's largest industry trade fair and has partnered this year with Russia.
    Russia retaliates against US after sanctions
    BERLIN, GERMANY – OCTOBER 19: Russian President Vladimir Putin attends a meeting to discuss the Ukrainian peace process at the German federal Chancellery on October 19, 2016 in Berlin, Germany. The leaders of Russia, Ukraine, France and Germany, known as the Normandy Four, met in Berlin to discuss implementation of the peace plan known as the Minsk Protocol, a roadmap for resolving the conflict in Ukraine after Russian forces invaded in 2014 and annexed the peninsula of Crimea. The United States has threatened renewed sanctions on Russia if the country did not either implement the plan in the coming months or arrive at a plan on how to do so. (Photo by Adam Berry/Getty Images)
    Senate sends Russia sanctions bill to Trump
    Vladimir Putin on Trump US politics _00003422.jpg
    Putin: Claims of election interference are ‘anti-Russia hysteria’
    russia sanctions phil black lok_00011312.jpg
    Russian leaders lash out at US sanctions
    An image published by the Makeyev Rocket Design Bureau of the RS-28 Sarmat rocket, or 'Satan 2.'
    First photos of Russia’s ‘Satan 2′ missile released
    US President Barack Obama (R) meets his Russian counterpart Vladimir Putin (L) in Los Cabos, Mexico, on June 18, 2012, during the G20 leaders Summit. Obama met today Putin at a G20 summit to discuss differences over what to do about the bloody conflict in Syria. AFP PHOTO/ RIA-NOVOSTI POOL / ALEXEI NIKOLSKY (Photo credit should read ALEXEI NIKOLSKY/AFP/GettyImages)
    Is this the new Cold War?

    Russian spy released from prison and deported
    US President Barack Obama (R) listens to Russian President Vladimir Putin after their bilateral meeting in Los Cabos, Mexico on June 18, 2012 on the sidelines of the G20 summit. Obama and President Vladimir Putin met Monday, for the first time since the Russian leader's return to the presidency, for talks overshadowed by a row over Syria. The closely watched meeting opened half-an-hour late on the sidelines of the G20 summit of developed and developing nations, as the US leader sought to preserve his "reset" of ties with Moscow despite building disagreements. AFP PHOTO/Jewel Samad (Photo credit should read JEWEL SAMAD/AFP/Getty Images)
    Obama orders Russian hacking probe

    McCain: People are ‘giving up on the West’
    Russian President Vladimir Putin (R) greets his Syrian counterpart Bashar al-Assad upon his arrival for a meeting at the Kremlin in Moscow on October 20, 2015. Assad, on his first foreign visit since Syria's war broke out, told his main backer and counterpart Putin in Moscow that Russia's campaign in Syria has helped contain "terrorism". / AFP / RIA NOVOSTI / ALEXEY DRUZHININ (Photo credit should read ALEXEY DRUZHININ/AFP/Getty Images)
    What are Russia’s objectives in Syria?

    Senators promise Russian sanctions

    Is this the most powerful man in the world?

    The Cold War: Then and now

    Unarmed Russian jet flies over Washington

    Russia government plane approached by NATO jet
    US President Donald Trump holds a joint press conference with his Polish counterpart at the Royal Castle in Warsaw, Poland, July 6, 2017. / AFP PHOTO / SAUL LOEB (Photo credit should read SAUL LOEB/AFP/Getty Images)
    WH: Trump to sign Russia sanctions bill
    Russian President Vladimir Putin speak to the media after touring the Hannover Messe 2013 industrial trade fair on April 8, 2013 in Hanover, Germany. Merkel and Putin toured the fair, which is the world's largest industry trade fair and has partnered this year with Russia.
    Russia retaliates against US after sanctions
    BERLIN, GERMANY – OCTOBER 19: Russian President Vladimir Putin attends a meeting to discuss the Ukrainian peace process at the German federal Chancellery on October 19, 2016 in Berlin, Germany. The leaders of Russia, Ukraine, France and Germany, known as the Normandy Four, met in Berlin to discuss implementation of the peace plan known as the Minsk Protocol, a roadmap for resolving the conflict in Ukraine after Russian forces invaded in 2014 and annexed the peninsula of Crimea. The United States has threatened renewed sanctions on Russia if the country did not either implement the plan in the coming months or arrive at a plan on how to do so. (Photo by Adam Berry/Getty Images)
    Senate sends Russia sanctions bill to Trump
    Vladimir Putin on Trump US politics _00003422.jpg
    Putin: Claims of election interference are ‘anti-Russia hysteria’
    russia sanctions phil black lok_00011312.jpg
    Russian leaders lash out at US sanctions
    An image published by the Makeyev Rocket Design Bureau of the RS-28 Sarmat rocket, or 'Satan 2.'
    First photos of Russia’s ‘Satan 2′ missile released
    (CNN)An unarmed Russian Air Force aircraft overflew the US Capitol, the Pentagon, Central Intelligence Agency and Joint Base Andrews at low altitude on Wednesday as part of a longstanding treaty that allows the militaries of the United States and Russia to observe the other from the air, according to two people familiar with the flight.

    The flight was part of the Treaty on Open Skies, which allows military aircraft from the United States and Russia and other nations to fly aerial observation flights to observe military sites of the 34 signatory nations.
    The Russian Air Force Tupolev Tu-154 on Wednesday afternoon passed at around 3,700 feet over downtown Washington and Joint Base Andrews in Maryland, where Air Force One is based, according to tracking website Flightradar24.
    The jet is authorized to enter P-56, the highly secure airspace surrounding the White House.

    Ben burn (02b525)

  219. Sneaky code there CNN..cut a portion get the whole flounder.

    Ben burn (02b525)

  220. Sammy Finkelman, at 213: it’s really not clear to me that an accurate guidance system matters. I mean, if they were honestly trying to take out military targets, sure — but if they just want to be able to *threaten* us, then “we can hit somewhere in the US even though we don’t have the precision to pick a specific place and get it there” seems good enough.

    aphrael (e0cdc9)

  221. Dustin: a pre-emptive strike probably dooms Seoul, and likely results in us having to veto UN sanctions against us.

    aphrael (e0cdc9)

  222. “I call upon Chairman Khrushchev to halt and eliminate this clandestine, reckless, and provocative threat to world peace and to stable relations between our two nations.” – JFK, October 22, 1962

    http://www.americanrhetoric.com/speeches/jfkcubanmissilecrisis.html

    “North Korea best not make any more threats to the United States. They will be met with fire and fury like the world has never seen. He has been very threatening beyond a normal state. And as I said they will be met with fire, fury, and frankly power, the likes of which this world has never seen before.” – DJT, August 8, 2017

    One was a former PT boat commander, experienced in a real shooting war, who understood how to address a critical situation.

    The other is a business man, experienced in corporate war, who understands how to address an envelope.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  223. In a dark way, NK is a Patterico ally in this. They’re doing what no pundits or presidential candidates could; they’re calling Trump’s bluff with fierce ridicule on the world stage; a “guy bereft of reason;” they’re laughingly bitch-slapping The Donald; humiliating him. And it’s Trump’s own fault. Sanctions be damned; all he can do is bloviate back.

    Recall back in the day NK seized the Pueblo; and the U.S. endured it. So it won’t be a surprise if NK does go to the brink and tweaks Trump’s pecker if provoked and fire a few conventional missiles into the sea off Guam as ‘a shot across the bow’… to show they mean business. And there’s noting Trump can really do about it without costing a lot of lives.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  224. I guess they’re smart enough to know the blow-hard is backed by genuine hard-guys who may be old enough to remember the grudging history of their smart-asssing as they extend middle digit.

    Ben burn (02b525)

  225. May if we lose honolulu or seaoul, the fall out cloud will focus peoples attentuon

    narciso (d1f714)

  226. Hoping to incite the End Times narciso?

    You have your cro-magnon axe to grind.

    Ben burn (02b525)

  227. Aphrael, I don’t mean to suggest there wouldn’t be a severe cost. But in my opinion regime change is long overdue. The problem isn’t just the North bombing someone one day. It’s that this weapon will proliferate and shouldn’t be tolerated.

    Dustin (aaf87b)

  228. No the death toll, will be much greater before anyone pays attention, consider the 60 million that perished in Mao’s china.

    narciso (d1f714)

  229. That is a fair bet, recall they supplied the reactor at der Er zour, which the Israelis took out for years before the Syrian civil war:

    https://search.wikileaks.org/plusd/cables/09STATE101892_a.html

    narciso (d1f714)

  230. If, in 65 years, we do not have a plan to take out North Korea’s gun emplacements behind the DMZ, in 15 minutes or less, we should dissolve the U.S. military and outsource our national defense to India. And then gather up all former Presidents, cabinet and sub-cabinet DoD and NSC officials, and generals, and send them to live out the rest of their lives in the DMZ.

    nk (dbc370)

  231. *after* 65 years?

    nk (dbc370)

  232. @228. Not so sure anymore– Trump “advisors” keep trying to tell Faux viewers this compares to the Cuban Missile Crisis but of course NK isn’t 90 miles off the Florida coast nor is the OAS and the Monroe Doctrine in play.

    It’s more like Dennis the Menace driving cranky ol’Mr. Wilson nuts w/a new slingshot.

    Had no idea America was now a ‘hyper-power’- not a mere ‘superpower,’ too. Faux loves remaning things…. Guess buying a $13 billion aircraft carrier does make Uncle Sam hyper- especially when the bill comes. Wonder if it can be sunk w/a few $3 million Exocet-styled missiles…

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  233. “we do not have a plan to take out North Korea’s gun emplacements behind the DMZ..”

    Do you have literal skin in the game? You think they don’t have a hair trigger on artillery shells filled with fun stuff like anthrax?

    Ben burn (02b525)

  234. For God’s sake. Any, and I mean ANY scenario where NK acts precipitously results in high six-figure Southern casualties.

    Ben burn (02b525)

  235. @238- But more importantly to Fearless Leader, he has 6 properties in SK!

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  236. He’s buying futures on Fukushima too.

    Ben burn (02b525)

  237. Do you have literal skin in the game?

    I like Dorco razor blades which are made in South Korea, but there are any other numbers of brands I also like.

    nk (dbc370)

  238. That’s what I thought..nothing to lose.

    Now about that yellowcake..

    Ben burn (02b525)

  239. You did say “literal”. “Literal skin in the game”. Learn English and maybe we can talk. Learn how to read it first. Because you missed my point.

    nk (dbc370)

  240. I’ve concluded that he must one of prof Dana wards foreign students, that is the original semanticleo

    narciso (d1f714)

  241. The North Koreans just spit in Trump’s face again.

    They said they will hit Guam with 4 IRBMs by mid-August. They also said Trump is insane and “sound dialogue is not possible with such a guy bereft of reason and only absolute force can work on him”.

    I think Trump should make another idle threat. Maybe two. The first one worked so well!

    Dave (445e97)

  242. Those were the warheads intelligence didn’t asnit tell this summer.

    narciso (d1f714)

  243. @246- Well, off Guam into the sea – ‘shots across the bow’ as it were.

    ‘Course if they targeted just the 6 Trump properties in SK, retaliation might be simply a matter of raising hotel room rates in Dubai, initiation fees at Mara Lago, greens fees at all the golf courses and, of course, rent at Trump Tower. Cheaper than thermonuclear war. 😉

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  244. I find it somewhat amusing (in a very macabre way, to be sure) that some folks are actually advocating (or seem to be) for a pre-emptive war against NK. Assuming that everything went tickety-tickety-boo for the good guys in that event (i.e., that we “took out” every offensive nuclear weapon that NK has in its arsenal, before a single one could be deployed to effect), then it is remains highly unlikely (imo) that NK would not rain down upon the South (and US forces & civilians there) considerable carnage, by means of conventional weaponry (including chem. (& biological ?)). This would, on the whole, be unhealthy for South Koreans and for Asia-related commerce in general, and I suspect that the stock market might take a bit of a tumble, and even the bond market. One might well anticipate some not inconsiderable . . . “adverse disruptions” in the US economy as a whole (though perhaps less so in real estate investments & opportunities; they don’t call Him the (Con) Artist of the Deal for nothing!) And, yeah – some GI Joes & Janes (etc.) will pay the “ultimate price” (or “a lesser considerable price”) – perhaps quite a few (and perhaps some with bone spurs – though it would of course be unfair to play upon anyone’s empathy/sympathies in this particular respect).

    Of course, if the North were nonetheless to retain usable effective nukes, then the carnage to the South likely increases considerably (d’oh!), as does the threat of carnage (and adverse market disruptions, etc.) to the (South-)East (Japan), as well as to Guam. (The later two, assuming (I suppose) that any “re-entry” and/or “guidance” issues have not proven wholly intractable to the little slant-eyed (northern) bastards). I suspect that any such confluence of events would tend to occasion trillions upon trillions of dollars of losses, in stock (etc.) markets and in actual commerce. Even assuming that not a single stinking molecule from NK came w/in 1000 miles of the United States Proper.

    Then, of course (in any event) there is the political fall-out to consider. Pre-emptive wars are immoral and illegal, and some folks are sticklers about that. I suspect that we (the US) will not have “burnished our image” and increased good will towards us amongst our allies (much less, others; hmmmm . . . ?), by engaging in (another) pre-emptive war. This may prove problematical.

    Problematical, too, is what to do in NK itself, after it has experienced fire and fury like the world has NEVER seen. Pottery barn, anyone? Frankly, I admit it; I have not been over-impressed with our ability to marry military force to successful achievements in the national interest, in the past two go-arounds (“past”, being employed quasi-ironically, of course).

    Anyhow, them’s my 2 cents, in my typically windy fashion. Cheers all. (And don’t let the bed-bugs bite!)

    Q! (267694)

  245. Yrs it would so would a nuke over Seoul or Tokyo what would that do the markets?

    narciso (d1f714)

  246. #226, JFK was a disgraced PT boat captain who got his craft and crew run over by an enemy Destroyer at night. Kennedy had foolishly failed to post a lookout as his boat drifted in the shipping lames and then irresponsibly went below to his bunk.

    It was only his wealthy father’s political influence that kept JFK from facing a court of inquiry and subsequent dismissal from service for cause.

    ropelight (072508)

  247. @250. If I understand your comment correctly, you meant to write something along the lines of:

    Yes it would. So … a nuke over Seoul or Tokyo — what would that do the markets?

    (I’m also assuming you mean a NK nuke.)

    I believe I stated that (imo) that would result in massive adverse market consequences. Sorry if I was unclear. Cheers.

    Q! (267694)

  248. Pre-emptive wars are immoral and illegal

    Baloney.

    I agree with most of the rest of your post though. There is a reason nobody has “solved” the North Korea problem in the last 60-odd years, and that is because there is no possibility of a surgical strike and/or limited conflict that does not rapidly escalate into (at best) a conventional ground war where a million-man enemy army starts ~35 miles away from a city of almost 10 million people.

    Of course, ultimate victory (which last time turned out to mean restoration of the status quo ante) is not in doubt, but the costs would be staggering. For obvious reasons, the South Koreans have a say and are very unlikely to agree to any military operation unless the North Koreans launch an attack of their own first.

    Obviously the North Koreans must realize they cannot prevail in any conflict with the United States. But it’s likely that one of their real goals is to drive a wedge between the US and South Korea.

    Dave (445e97)

  249. @253 Me: Pre-emptive wars are immoral and illegal
    You: Baloney.

    Of course you’re right. I should have used the term “preventive wars” – my mistake. (Not to suggest that you would find that statement unobjectionable/incorrect in context or otherwise.) Obliged for the opportunity to effect a correction.

    Q! (267694)

  250. @254 — To be a bit clearer than my re-reading of #254 now suggests, please (all) substitute “preventive” for “pre-emptive” throughout the entirety of my original post (249). My apologies for any confusion or bother. Cheers.

    Q! (267694)

  251. Good article from David French at NRO.

    He explores a scenario where the North Koreans seize Seoul in a surprise attack, and then attempt nuclear blackmail of the US West Coast to keep it.

    And there it was — a direct question to the American people. Do we risk San Francisco for Seoul? The troops streaming across the ocean to fight the DPRK were willing to die, but what about the millions of moms, sons, and daughters of our great cities? Must we sacrifice their lives? Must we endure the unspeakable horror of a nuclear attack? Or should we simply defend what’s left in the South, mourn our dead, learn our lessons, and perhaps one day fight again?

    The citizens of the targeted American cities knew what they wanted. They wanted to live.

    Dave (445e97)

  252. The people of Guam want to live too. The democrats are looking out for them.

    http://www.cbsnews.com/news/hank-johnson-worries-guam-could-capsize-after-marine-buildup/

    harkin (aca8cf)

  253. I’d risk San Francisco for a small Diet Coke, and I don’t even drink Diet Coke. The Sequoias are a different matter. They are unique organisms and much more precious than Koreans.

    Which the foregoing is not as idiotic as David French’s scenario.

    nk (dbc370)

  254. That was tosiffs bo by the way, as well as e of the 45 employees if the swan birrisss

    narciso (d1f714)

  255. @251. =yawn= And the moral of this tall tale: the United States doesn’t glow in the dark today.

    Thanks for playing.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  256. President Harry S. Truman, in 1945, demanded that the Japanese surrender or “they may expect a rain of ruin from the air, the like of which has never been seen on this earth.”

    It’s obvious to most sentient beings the North Koreans don’t understand diplomatic messages. But it’s Trump delivering (to China, by the way) the ultimatum.

    Good to see the entire Administration is in lockstep for a change.

    Lenny (5ea732)

  257. And had Kennedy not dropped the ball eighteen months earlier, the missiles wouldn’t have been in Cuba in the first place.

    narciso (d1f714)

  258. @262- Little Nikita had big plans. 😉

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  259. BTW, I am of the opinion that the USA has the power to beat a small nuclear power without using nukes, and should do so if at all possible. We even have the ability to win conventionally despite the other side using a nuke in the field. And we should. Only if an ally is hit, or a US target is hit, do we HAVE to retaliate. But if possible, we need to refrain.

    Because it is the aftermath that is important. If we did not care about the future, we would not go to war. And the future HAS to be a world where nuclear weapons are not proliferating, and refraining from using them — even though we have no obligation whatsoever toward a recanted signer of the NPT — advances our cause.

    North Korea needs to be an object lesson. Try to get nuclear weapons and you are signing your death warrant. Blow up every last military installation, every nuclear facility, silence the artillery (we’ve had 60 years to figure that out) and decapitate the government. Then land troops, arrest every well-fed adult, and turn it all over to the South with an offer of assistance.

    But no nukes. That would be a mistake.

    Kevin M (752a26)

  260. Unless one uses rods,of gods that seems unlikely.

    narciso (d1f714)

  261. According to the Soviet records, Fidel wanted to USE those nukes, even though every bug on Cuba would have died. The Soviets were not so keen on dying on the Pyre of History.

    Kevin M (752a26)

  262. Unless one uses rods,of gods that seems unlikely.

    Don’t think we have any. But what is unlikely?

    Kevin M (752a26)

  263. An assured penetration of the missile faxiliries

    narciso (d1f714)

  264. Brendan dubois,write a,scenario where a limited nuclear exchange occurred the ussr was totally destroyed the us,was,serious maimed and the UK resumed their imperial yen.

    narciso (d1f714)

  265. A metaphor for neocon warmongering hidden in an innocent shave kit. NK, you’re a jenius!

    Ben burn (9f4670)

  266. Playing games with rhetoric when stakes so high, is bound to be misinterpreted

    Ben burn (9f4670)

  267. Well, we are criticizing Trump for his rhetoric. And all Americans have figurative skin in the game when American troops are in harm’s way.

    nk (dbc370)

  268. He explores a scenario where the North Koreans seize Seoul in a surprise attack, and then attempt nuclear blackmail of the US West Coast to keep it.

    Interesting speculation but (as the author notes) a most unlikely consequence of a general North Korean offensive against the South.

    Leaving aside the internal material factors which would hamstring the KPA as it sought a breakthrough, the terrain facing the KPA, the quantitative and qualitative edge enjoyed by ROK armed forces and reserve components, and the apparent morale issues facing KPA personnel all point to serious questions regarding North Korea’s capacity to advance in force much beyond the DMZ.

    JP (f1742c)

  269. Dark of the moon; surprise boom?!

    ‘Hefty! Hefty! Hefty! Wimpy! Wimpy! Wimpy.’ – Hefty trash bag TV commercial, 1984

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  270. “Americans have figurative skin in the game when American troops are in harm’s way.”

    Yes, but casualties are more quickly forgotten when it’s not family or friend.

    Ben burn (9f4670)

  271. Oh Captain, the USS Pueblo is still a ‘yugggggggggggge’ tourist attraction in Pyongyang.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  272. Trump should ask the little pig if he wants S. Korea to become an island?

    mg (31009b)

  273. don’t understand why he still has a job
    I would never hire the taliban lover

    mg (31009b)

  274. Maybe this will get teresas attention:

    http://www.38north.org/2017/08/sinpo081117

    narciso (d1f714)

  275. Actually, ben, it is those who are accepting the Kims with nukes (and soon, ICBMs, and soon after that H-bombs) that are the warmongers. They’re just working towards a bigger war later.

    This is a bowl of sh1t left by Obama for his successor. There are many things I could blame on Trump, but this isn’t one of them.

    Kevin M (752a26)

  276. I see the situation in North Korea as not unlike that in concentration camps in WWII. I think letting Kim hold his citizens hostage has worked so well he now has nukes to sell to the same sort of people who flew planes into the world trade center.

    I don’t think this is a can we need to kick down the road for another twenty years.

    Dustin (ba94b2)

  277. mcmaster should be in a islamic jail cell since he caters to them constantly. traitorous biotch, for crying out loud fire this pos.

    mg (31009b)

  278. mcmasters reminds me of a young joseph goebbels

    mg (31009b)

  279. I like my chances against the libs and the no trumpers, L&L with fresh water, food and a thirst for victory.
    USA< USA< USA< USA< USA< USA and eff the rest

    mg (31009b)

  280. Trashing yet another Veteran, conservative Trash?

    Fickle Gorms go out with the trash.

    Ben burn (b3d5ab)

  281. I don’t put a lot of credence in that previous link, mg, a decade ago the counterinsurgency was considered radical:
    https://medium.com/@RPublicService/feds-at-work-right-hand-men-to-the-pentagons-top-officials-ca99b6c93fbf

    narciso (d1f714)

  282. Say what you want about Bradley Manning, he got lefties to pretend they like veterans.

    As for all that horsesh!t about H. R. McMaster, it’s all coming from the loony fringes and for all we know it’s sourced and financed by foreign powers to create distrust of our intelligence services. Like “Three Days Of The Condor” and the Jason Bourne books and movies.

    nk (dbc370)

  283. Conservatives love military drones who carry only the Neocon message. All others can die in a North Vietnam tiger cage.

    Ben burn (4f912e)

  284. 294 moderated..why, I have no idea…excerpt.

    Manafort daughters not Trumpettes.

    Im not a trump supporter but i am still proud of dad tho. He is the best at what he does.” Her sister Andrea Manafort responded by referring to their father’s relationship with Trump as “The most dangerous friendship in America,” while in another exchange she called them “a perfect pair” of “power-hungry egomaniacs,” and asserted “the only reason my dad is doing this campaign is for sport. He likes the challenge. It’s like an egomaniac’s chess game. There’s no money motivation.”

    By contrast, the Manafort daughters and their mother seemed much more unsettled about Paul Manafort’s work as a political consultant for Yanukovych’s Russia-backed Party of Regions, which is a subject of renewed interest among investigators probing possible links between Trump’s campaign and Russia.

    Ben burn (4f912e)

  285. Only the ones who

    “personally raped, cut off ears, cut off heads, taped wires from portable telephones to human genitals and turned up the power, cut off limbs, blown up bodies, randomly shot at civilians, razed villages in fashion reminiscent of Genghis Khan, shot cattle and dogs for fun, poisoned food stocks, and generally ravaged the countryside of South Vietnam in addition to the normal ravage of war, and the normal and very particular ravaging which is done by the applied bombing power of this country.”

    https://facultystaff.richmond.edu/~ebolt/history398/johnkerrytestimony.html

    Yeah, before Manning there was John Heinz Kerry.

    nk (dbc370)

  286. Well, aren’t you spacial..

    A conservative with discretion..

    Ben burn (4f912e)

  287. Gonna need a lot of unwinding of the BASTARD POTUS’s illegitimate year in office.
    http://freebeacon.com/uncategorized/ellison-still-believes-gorsuch-illegitimate-supreme-court-justice/

    Ben burn (4f912e)

  288. So they are part of the stay behinders, so policies dont change, unless you think the last eight were hunky dory

    narciso (d1f714)

  289. Except the Rhodes road show stays in, the vetting is in quicksand,

    narciso (d1f714)

  290. I didn’t click the link. Is this Abdul Salami Baloney Ellison, the Muslim from Minnesota, whose Somali constituent recently murdered Justine Damond?

    nk (dbc370)

  291. “I didn’t click the link..”

    Someone please ‘splain why this is an act of integrity or is it just pride in ignorance? I really don’t get it.

    Ben burn (4f912e)

  292. It’s similar to Trumpfacthate because the facts don’t jive with emotional displays. It doesn’t fit in their wishbook. Really, there isn’t a dimes difference between never and forever Trumpets. They all like what he does, just not the way he does it.

    Ben burn (4f912e)

  293. Can’t waste time on every piece of BS on the internet. Even your comments, short as they are, exceed my limit.

    nk (dbc370)

  294. I have a feeling the content makes you lazy.

    Ben burn (4f912e)

  295. Yes his also cars favorite beneficiary, and he is the second highest ranking democrat in the govt

    narciso (d1f714)

  296. Seriously, I can’t stand the ads. Some of them could make a buzzard gag. (That’s an American expression.)

    nk (dbc370)

  297. Let’s hope the Democrats keep doing what they’re doing, narciso, and not wake them up from their dream.

    nk (dbc370)

  298. The headline rather clearly states the category error witjin

    narciso (d1f714)

  299. I don’t notice that with the freebeacon.

    narciso (d1f714)

  300. It was at nutroit convention, so they let their freak flag fly.

    narciso (d1f714)

  301. Heh. While you’re not reading…we are.

    Sun Tzu rocks!

    Ben burn (4f912e)

  302. But no one will be asked to repudiate it,,because the peanut gallery all agree.

    narciso (d1f714)


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