Patterico's Pontifications

8/8/2017

ObamaCare Repeal Turncoat Dean Heller Will Face A New Primary Opponent

Filed under: General — Patterico @ 10:30 am



Unfortunately, he’s a “Make America Great Again” Trump-style opportunist:

Danny Tarkanian, the son of a legendary Nevada college basketball coach who has run for office several times, announced Tuesday morning that he will challenge Sen. Dean Heller in Nevada’s Republican primary next year.

Tarkanian announced his bid on “Fox and Friends,” where he criticized Heller as a “Never-Trumper” and said that his stance on the president helped Hillary Clinton carry the state.

“So many people have contacted me in the past few months, saying ‘You got to run against Dean Heller,'” Tarkanian said. “They understand, like I do, that we’re never going to make America great again unless we have senators in office supporting President Trump. Dean Heller wasn’t just one of the first Never-Trumpers in the state of Nevada, he was one of the most influential. He actually helped Hillary Clinton win the state of Nevada.”

I have mixed feelings about this.

On one hand, I am thrilled to see any challenger to Dean Heller. On the other hand, I’m not sure Tarkanian is the guy we want to see in the Senate.

Heller was one of six turncoats on the repeal of ObamaCare. There has been no real vote to repeal ObamaCare. But on the closest thing the GOP has advanced this year, Dean Heller was a traitor.

In 2015, a repeal bill — one that repealed as much of ObamaCare as possible without 60 votes — was passed by a majority of the Senate. Among the people who voted for that bill were Dean Heller, John McCain, Shelley Moore Capito, Lisa Murkowski, Lamar Alexander, and Rob Portman.

But of course such a bill was designed to be vetoed — and it was, by President Obama.

When it was re-submitted this year, Heller and the other five voted no. Because they knew that it would be signed this time.

With the “skinny repeal” vote, the GOP has managed to muddy the waters on who actually opposed ObamaCare repeal. There is a mythology that John McCain single-handedly killed any real effort to repeal ObamaCare. The GOP is complicit in that mythology. Let me clarify — which requires taking a step back and going back to the original House bill.

The original bill passed by the House, the AHCA, was garbage. It was essentially a codification of ObamaCare’s basic structure, with some tinkering around the edges, and some meaningless commitments to reduce Medicaid in the future — reductions that Mitch McConnell correctly told his members would never actually happen. That bill didn’t deserve to be passed by the Senate.

The final vote — the one that got the most publicity — was the vote on “skinny repeal,” which was not just garbage, but hot garbage. It was an effort to simply strip away unpopular aspects of ObamaCare and leave the ones people liked, even though it would create an immediately unsustainable insurance market and necessitate giant bailouts and subsidies.

Somewhere in between, the 2015 bill was re-submitted and voted down by Heller and the other turncoats. That was the real chance for real repeal.

But by putting the blame for its failure on a (probably terminally) ill octogenarian who will never run for office again, the GOP could allow other people to pose as being for repeal. Heller was one of those people. And it fooled the rubes, including the rubes at CNN, who today “report”:

Heller has recently drawn the ire of conservatives after he frequently criticized Trump’s plan to repeal the Affordable Care Act, leading a pro-Trump group to briefly run anti-Heller ads. . . . Heller eventually decided to stick with Trump and backed his party’s efforts on health care, which ultimately failed.

That bolded sentence is 100% false. Heller once again posed as backing repeal — just like he posed as backing repeal in 2015. It is a wholly fraudulent position.

Does that mean Tarkanian is the answer? I am doubtful. He is a perennial candidate and my preliminary impression of him is that he has the policy chops of a Donald Trump, which is to say none. He criticized Heller over his opposition to the original House repeal bill, even though that was garbage.

Is Tarkanian the ideal candidate? No.

Will he make Dean Heller’s life miserable? Probably.

Couldn’t happen to a nicer guy.

[Cross-posted at RedState and The Jury Talks Back.]

142 Responses to “ObamaCare Repeal Turncoat Dean Heller Will Face A New Primary Opponent”

  1. If Trump is the native genius we hear so much about he will endorse Tarkanian just to sabotage. But he’s just not that snart.

    Ben burn (12ab2c)

  2. Oh wait. Competence follows loyalty wrt Trump priorities.

    Ben burn (12ab2c)

  3. If your gonna go celebrity Armo, why not internet badass Dan Bilzerian? Ara P.might have been the last not oft-putting one left.

    urbanleftbehind (20689a)

  4. the 2015 bill was…the real chance for real repeal

    The Republican campiagn promsie was not REPEAL, but REPEAL and REPLACE.

    And Heller did side with what trumo wanted that day, and Trump never wanted REPEAL alone. He was for that bill as a method of forcing Democrats to the table.

    What’s ahpepned now is that Sxhumer was holding aup confirmation by forcing debates, and he agreed to let nominations go through because McConnell told him the health care bill was dead.

    Now Donald Trump is not going to like it if any bill is passed authorizing payments to insurance companies without repealing the individual and employer mandates. They seem to want merely to raise the threshhold from 50 employees to 500.

    Sammy Finkelman (02a146)

  5. Hedgerow country.

    On to Paris.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  6. I don’t think a never-Trump/hardly ever Trump is going to primary a GOP regular, no matter how deserving. It’s the MAGA sorts who are going to primary people in 2018.

    Appalled (0119d8)

  7. Legends in their own minds, appalled?

    Ben burn (12ab2c)

  8. https://wwiitracings.files.wordpress.com/2014/01/hedgerow-cutter.jpg

    http://www.militaryhistoryonline.com/wwii/articles/hedgerowbreakout.aspx

    Hedgerow country.

    On to Paris.

    DCSCA (797bc0) — 8/8/2017 @ 11:29 am

    Why I trust my Sailors. And Marines.

    Breakout from the Hedgerows: A Lesson in Ingenuithy

    …The defeat of Germany was still a long way off for the United States, British and Canadian troops on July 1, 1944…

    Steve57 (0b1dac)

  9. That’s hard, at#7, the only way that happens is if Dems run a Potempkin primary in a same-day-party-declaration state and they do the Cochran maneuver.

    urbanleftbehind (70a0d3)

  10. This place seems populated by highly intelligent people that I generally disagree with on politics.

    Could someone please point me to the reasoning conservatives’ motivations behind the destruction of the ACA?

    The ACA helped me when I needed it and it has helped others that I know. Any solid, relatively concise sources on how it’s actually hurting us as a nation?

    I am from another bubble entirely, but I’m legitimately curious

    Sorry if this is a threadjack.

    curious lurker (131c4c)

  11. Paging Kevin M.

    urbanleftbehind (c6107a)

  12. @11. In America has nothing to do w/health and everything to do w/economics.

    Conservatives simply have an adverse reaction -literally knee jerk, as it were- to change in general and all things w/t scent of socialism. They opposed Social Security (but collect it); opposed Medicare (but use it) and now the ACA. It needs tweaking to be sure but we all have individual cases for and against it.

    Privatization is a wor$hip word; from space travel to postal service.

    Today, the chatter is prayers to privatize war– in Afghanistan no less. You know, like the church did back in the day hiring armies to crusade and ‘spread the word’ — at spear and sword point.

    Rohrabacher Wants To Privatize Afghan War

    dailycaller.com/…/exclusive-republican-congressman-backs-plan-to-privatize-bulk-of…

    California Republican Rep. Dana Rohrabacher is supportive of a plan to privatize much of the war in Afghanistan.

    Madness.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  13. curious lurker

    Are you OK with the government being in control of such an important aspect of your life?

    Truthbetold (1ab5c1)

  14. @Patterico:On one hand, I am thrilled to see any challenger to Dean Heller. On the other hand, I’m not sure Tarkanian is the guy we want to see in the Senate.

    You can only make one thing your highest priority. If your highest priority is seeing Heller punished for being a “traitor”*, then you would need to work to push forward the candidate most likely to unseat him, no matter if flawed, and if that guy’s Tarkanian he’s Tarkanian.

    If your highest priority is seeing the highest quality Republican Senator for Nevada, then once Tarkanian is the only challenger, the you might need to work to push forward Heller.

    Do you know which way you prefer to go on this, and why? Is it more important to keep out people who’ve done something you can’t tolerate, or keep up the level of the people who are in the government? Can’t speak for all readers but seeing you flesh out your thinking would be instructive for me.

    My druthers are, when in doubt, vote the bums out. If you’ve made a mistake and thrown out a good one there’s always another coming along; if you’ve voted in a bad one in throwing out the incumbent, well it’s only a few years and you can throw him out too. I prefer a polity where there are no “safe seats”, because I abhor a class that makes politics an occupation. I’d rather be governed by the first 100 names in the phone book, as the man said.

    *Quote quotes, not scare quotes. It was your word, is all I mean to indicate by the quotes,

    Frederick (64d4e1)

  15. Option 1: re-elect Heller
    Option 2: elect a progressive.

    Kevin M (752a26)

  16. Hopefully, in 60 days time we will be talking about bi-partisan efforts to repair Obamacare, rather than worrying over the Hellers and McCains of the Senate.

    More hopefully yet, we won’t be in national mourning for hundreds or thousands of American dead, whose feckless President made his past incompetence lack of judgment look like a school play, as compared to the La Scala-sized mis-steps and errors he is quite capable of effecting presently . . .

    E.g., today’s: “North Korea best not make any more threats to the United States,” Mr. Trump told reporters at his golf club in Bedminster, N.J. “They will be met with fire and fury like the world has never seen. He has been very threatening beyond a normal state and as I said they will be met with fire and fury and frankly power the likes of which this world has never seen before.”

    Q! (267694)

  17. @11. Lived in the UK half a decade w/family in age range from teens to 70s- NHC worked fine; delivered affordable care/script; Harley Street doctors and excellent outpatient services. The system in America needs mending; it got broken by greed.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  18. @17. Mr. Trump told reporters at his golf club in Bedminster, N.J. “They will be met with fire and fury like the world has never seen.

    Patterico can tag him on this one– Trump was likely watching the teevee and caught the PBS rebroadcast about ‘The Bomb’ and more or less lifted a quote from Truman.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  19. The coach’s son says he aligns with Trump, so I would hope that’s another vote for repeal and replace. I don’t know if the true conservatives could hope to really grow their caucus in the next few years to upset the establishment, so I’ll take Tark.

    Patricia (5fc097)

  20. R.I.P. Glen Campbell

    Icy (0a4c99)

  21. @1 Ben Burn

    Leonard Snart aka Captain Cold

    Traditionally, Captain Cold is driven by three things: money, women, and the desire to beat Barry Allen. Although not the lecher that Captain Boomerang was, Len Snart has an eye for the ladies, particularly models. When Barry Allen died, Captain Cold drifted for a while, jumping back and forth over the lines of crime and justice. He was captured by the Manhunter and served time in the Suicide Squad, worked with his sister as a bounty hunter (Golden Snowball Recoveries), and, with his longtime friend and sometimes nemesis Heat Wave, encountered Fire and Ice of the Justice League. He has teamed up with various villains over the years other than the many Rogues. These include Catwoman and the Secret Society of Super Villains. His favorite baseball team is the Houston Astros.

    Pinandpuller (16b0b5)

  22. Two score and fifteen years ago another new POTUS faced a growing nuclear threat backed by a nuclear superpower, here we go again. Trump would be wise to leave the line-drawing and threats to others but then again that’s just not his nature.

    How will history record the events and resolution of the North Korean missile crisis? What grand bargain was made to resolve it peacefully? If force was required, what did the use of force unleash?

    crazy (11d38b)

  23. @9 Steve57

    It’s just a spring clean for The May Queen.

    Pinandpuller (16b0b5)

  24. You need to mix it up a little, Icy. Every time you comment I know someone died.

    http://www.rollingstone.com/country/premieres/hear-glen-campbells-adios-from-final-album-w480203

    Steve57 (0b1dac)

  25. Pin: all that snart from a typo?

    Ben burn (12ab2c)

  26. @13 DCSCA

    Alvin York abjured guns and violence until it was time to collect Germans. At a certain point the government doesn’t leave you much choice.

    Pinandpuller (16b0b5)

  27. 23. crazy (11d38b) — 8/8/2017 @ 2:03 pm

    How will history record the events and resolution of the North Korean missile crisis?

    Well, if the People’s Liberation Army has its way it will be:

    The end of the doctrine of Mutual Assured Destruction came when North Korea exploded an atomic bomb in a populated territory, and there was no retaliation.

    Sammy Finkelman (02a146)

  28. Kevin M – certainly liberals are salivating at the idea that Heller could get knocked out in the primary by someone campaigning on being closer to Trump and repealing Obamacare; that makes a Democratic victory in Nevada substantially more likely.

    aphrael (e0cdc9)

  29. @26 Ben Burn

    Maybe you were closer than you thought.

    Pinandpuller (16b0b5)

  30. Does it mean anything that the NHS is the world’s fifth largest employer, coming in just behind McDonalds?

    All I know about the NHS I learned about in Calendar Girls.

    Pinandpuller (16b0b5)

  31. Sorry, Steve57. I get most of my political kicks over on Twitter these days. I’ll try to chime in here a little more often.

    Icy (0a4c99)

  32. 29, well NV is thoroughly Californicated, at least much more than suburban Richmond VA. Dems were idiots to celebrate the primary defeat of Cantor.

    urbanleftbehind (52c78b)

  33. The GOPe will not allow any one candidate a straight shot at Heller. If there is to be any challenge, it will come from at least two, thus diluting any anti-Heller support.

    I believe the seat will flip to the Dems.

    Ed from SFV (3400a5)

  34. The NK solution could be as simple as WKRP Thanksgiving episode writ large.

    “As God as my witness, I thought turkeys could fly.” Mr Carlson

    Pinandpuller (16b0b5)

  35. @21. Alzheimer’s is a hellish way to access heaven’s highway.

    R.I.P. Glen Campbell. The stars will be rhinestones this night.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  36. The Allied Forces dropped a lot of single shot pistols into German territory to encourage the locals.
    The trouble is the North Koreans may try to eat them.

    Pinandpuller (16b0b5)

  37. @18 DCSCA

    The healthcare system in America was broken by government. Now you think they are the solution. Really?

    Truthbetold (1ab5c1)

  38. @ 8/8/2017 @ 2:17 pm, you always have a choice.

    http://www.navysite.de/ffg/FFG52.HTM

    About the Ship’s Name, about Gunner’s Mate 3rd Class Paul Henry Carr:

    CARR is named in honor of Gunner’s Mate 3rd Class Paul Henry Carr, USNR (1924-1944), the heroic gun captain of the after 5-inch mount of the destroyer escort USS SAMUEL B. ROBERTS (DE 413) during the Battle of Samar, 15 October 1944, awarded a posthumous Silver Star for his conspicuous and gallant display of “outstanding technical skill” and “courageous initiative.”

    When SAMUEL B. ROBERTS engaged Japanese heavy cruisers attacking a force of escort carriers off Samar during the battle of Leyte Gulf, the fire of her after 5-inch guns inspired “every man on the ship.” As the destroyer escort maneuvered radically, and used minimal fire control equipment, Carr’s mount fired over 300 rounds of 5-inch ammunition, scoring, at close range, “a great many hits” on one of the enemy heavy cruisers, knocking out an 8-inch turret, demolishing her bridge and starting fires aft.

    Ultimately, the damage received from Japanese shells knocked out all power, compressed air, and communications, crippling the ship. Knowing the hazards involved, Carr’s close-knit crew loaded, rammed, and fired six charges by hand, without the safety device of a gas ejection system. In attempting to fire a seventh round, however, the powder charge “cooked-off” before the breech was closed, wrecking the gun and killing or wounding all but three men in the gun house.

    After the order to abandon ship had been given, a Petty Officer entered the mount, to find Carr, literally torn open from neck to thigh, holding a 54-pound projectile, trying unassisted to load and ram the only shell available. Carr begged the man to help him get off the last round, but the latter, seeing that the gun had been destroyed and its breach rendered an unrecognizable mass of steel, took the projectile from the gunner’s hands. After helping one of the other wounded men to the main deck, the Petty Officer returned to find Carr again attempting, although horribly wounded, to place the projectile on the loading tray of the inoperative gun. Carr perished a few minutes later after he was dragged from the mount.

    In addition to getting a ship named after him he earned the Silver Star. Personally I believe he should deserved more. But I digress. It was his choice. It was his entire gun crew’s choice to keep firing. They all knew the inevitable. They could have obeyed the order to abandon ship. They could have anticipated the order to abandon ship. Nobody would have blamed them.

    Choices are always available. But Sailors like me can remain below knowing that there are men like Paul Henry Carr manning the weapons systems. And there are certain choices they won’t make.

    Steve57 (0b1dac)

  39. 34 and 35’s posts might just converge and give us Sharon Angle, Part Deux.

    urbanleftbehind (52c78b)

  40. @13. DCSCA: When you write things like “wor$hip word”, I can’t tell if you’re being tongue in cheek or are upset about other things or if you’re not a conservative yourself. I’m not here to take issue with anyone’s stances. I simply want to hear the other side.

    If you’re being serious, the takeaway is that the ACA smells like socialism and that is considered a very bad thing. Is that accurate?

    @14. Truthbetold: Well I like police and I like the military, so yeah, I’m comfortable with the government being responsible for very critical aspects of my life. But I’m not trying to convince anyone of anything. I’m trying to be convinced

    curious lurker (131c4c)

  41. 37, don’t tell the average black person in Chicago…they are convinced a similar scheme is why the homicide rate is so high.

    urbanleftbehind (52c78b)

  42. 35.The NK solution could be as simple as WKRP Thanksgiving episode writ large

    Or Bond. James Bond.

    “Does “toppling” mean anything to you?” – “M” [Bernard Lee] ‘Dr. No’ 1962

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  43. @41. See #18.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  44. @38 Truthbetold: Is it also fair to say that a lot of the reason conservatives don’t like the ACA is that they don’t believe that the government will solve our healthcare problems, and thus it would be better to leave it entirely to private industry?

    If so, why did private industry not solve the problems before the ACA?

    I REALLY don’t want to start an argument. I’m just trying to get clarity on some conservatives’ positions, knowing that conservatives are not all the same person, and 2 highly conservative individuals many have very different opinions on this

    curious lurker (131c4c)

  45. “As God is my witness I thought Turkeys could fly”

    Ben burn (12ab2c)

  46. @44 Got it, thanks.

    curious lurker (131c4c)

  47. @13 DCSCA

    US DOD world’s largest employer at 3.2 million people.

    If you like your Army, you can keep it!

    Privatize war, publicize health care.

    Why do you object to one but not the other?

    Pinandpuller (16b0b5)

  48. Steve57

    I know what you mean.

    But my point is SS was passed probably 50 years before I was born. I’ve paid in most of my life.

    If I’m a hypocrite for taking a check(if ever) then DCSCA is a hypocrite for staying stateside and paying for health insurance. Or a fool.

    Pinandpuller (16b0b5)

  49. curious lurker

    Where do you draw the line of government control?

    Healthcare is not a right. If you are OK with being a serf that’s your decision. I’m not OK with the government dictated to me.

    Truthbetold (1ab5c1)

  50. The Allied Forces dropped a lot of single shot pistols into German territory to encourage the locals.

    The trouble is the North Koreans may try to eat them.

    Pinandpuller (16b0b5) — 8/8/2017 @ 2:39 pm

    Actually we didn’t drop a lot of Liberator pistols. None of the generals were too enthusiastic about them. Gun writer Dean Grennell described the trigger pull like trying to drag a tomcat off a shake roof. So, in this case the generals were probably correct to doubt the gun’s effectiveness. The US produced a lot more of them then we dropped. But of those we did drop, more were delivered to China and the Philippines then in German controlled territory.

    How effective were they? No one knows. If you were a partisan in Axis-controlled territory you would have had to have been an idiot to keep records about your kills.

    Steve57 (0b1dac)

  51. Penn Jillette and Carrot Top live in NV.

    Pinandpuller (16b0b5)

  52. @41 curious lurker

    Is it easier to fire a doctor or a police officer?

    Pinandpuller (16b0b5)

  53. curious lurker

    What do you think of the socialism?

    Truthbetold (1ab5c1)

  54. curious lurker – there could be any number of reasons to be against it. It did help some people, but at the expense of making things woirse for other people who were not wealthy. It did nothing about health care inflation and opromoted policies that restructed choice in doctors. It cost the government money without solving anything. It doesn’t work as advertised. The individual mandate is a terrible idea and a de facto regressive tax.

    Sammy Finkelman (02a146)

  55. @50 Really I’m just trying to get out of my bubble. I’m not trying to draw anyone else’s lines, so in an effort not to distract from the goal (hearing the conservative motivation for tearing down the ACA), I’m not going to answer the question. Suffice it to say you won’t agree with me.

    The message I’m getting from you is that healthcare is not a right, that you don’t trust the government to handle it properly, and that government control of healthcare relegates citizens to being serfs.

    Fair summary?

    Would you say you trust huge corporations to take care of citizens’ healthcare better than the government? Somebody’s going to do it and those are the only two choices I’ve seen on offer. This isn’t intended to be incendiary, just an honest question.

    curious lurker (131c4c)

  56. Bake us another Yellowcake. We’ve been to the circus: seen the puppet show.

    Wapo

    In the past, U.S. intelligence agencies have occasionally overestimated the North Korean threat. In the early 2000s, the George W. Bush administration assessed that Pyongyang was close to developing an ICBM that could strike the U.S. mainland — a prediction that missed the mark by more than a decade. More recently, however, analysts and policymakers have been taken repeatedly by surprise as North Korea achieved key milestones months or years ahead of schedule, noted Jeffrey Lewis, director of the Center for Nonproliferation Studies’ East Asia Nonproliferation Program. There was similar skepticism about China’s capabilities in the early 1960s, said Lewis, who has studied that country’s pathway to a successful nuclear test in 1964.

    Ben burn (12ab2c)

  57. curious lurker

    It all comes down to what people believe the role of the government to be: Limited or not so much.

    Some people were unfrozen by scientists. Our Liberty frightens them.

    Pinandpuller (16b0b5)

  58. Obamare was intentionally designed to fail in order to get to single payer.

    curious lurker

    Are you for single payer?

    Truthbetold (1ab5c1)

  59. Steve57

    I know what you mean.

    But my point is SS was passed probably 50 years before I was born. I’ve paid in most of my life.

    If I’m a hypocrite for taking a check(if ever) then DCSCA is a hypocrite for staying stateside and paying for health insurance. Or a fool.

    Pinandpuller (16b0b5) — 8/8/2017 @ 3:00 pm

    You’re not a hypocrite. I’m in the same boat. I think the way out is to offer people like you and I who are nearing retirement age 100 acres of federal land. That would solve two problems. Well, the exact acreage doesn’t need to be fixed at a certain amount. It would depend on the type of land. Just enough to make a living from. And I’m not talking about us geriatrics working the land. But we could, for instance, rent out the grazing rights.

    Steve57 (0b1dac)

  60. Lots and lots of forked tongues banging on war drums. The usual suspects…

    Ben burn (12ab2c)

  61. Ben burn

    Are you a peanut farmer?

    Truthbetold (1ab5c1)

  62. @53 Tempted to answer, but trying not to argue. Not sure what the takeaway from your question is as far as the conservative reason for tearing down the ACA.

    @54 Unrestrained socialism is, I think, objectively a total failure. Trying to read between the lines of your question, it goes back to the ACA being socialism, and that’s why conservatives want to tear it down. Yes?

    @55 Thank you, that’s just what I was looking for.

    curious lurker (131c4c)

  63. @50 Truthbetold

    Resistance is not Feudal…

    Pinandpuller (16b0b5)

  64. curious lurker

    “Unrestrained socialism”? Are you joking?

    Truthbetold (1ab5c1)

  65. @62 Truthbetold

    President Carter had more new housing starts from 1981-2017 than the prior four years of his Administration.

    Pinandpuller (16b0b5)

  66. @58. Ok, the question is where we do draw the line. Thanks. I’m not up on conservative tropes, so I don’t understand “Some people were unfrozen by scientists. Our Liberty frightens them.”

    @59. You keep asking compelling questions that I really want to answer. But that would turn this into a debate, which I’m trying to avoid for now. I think it’s clear that conservatives are strongly against single payer, which is a policy opinion I can take away from this, though.

    curious lurker (131c4c)

  67. @55 Sammy

    Isn’t more of the same of the government picking winners and losers?

    Pinandpuller (16b0b5)

  68. @65 I’m not joking, but I think we are not communicating well. I’m talking about what they’ve done in South America. It’s objectively a failure. My goal isn’t to agree or disagree, but I am trying to at least communicate clearly.

    curious lurker (131c4c)

  69. 35. Pinandpuller (16b0b5) — 8/8/2017 @ 2:38 pm

    The NK solution could be as simple as WKRP Thanksgiving episode writ large.

    “As God as my witness, I thought turkeys could fly.” Mr Carlson

    It’s simple.

    If you want to maintain Mutual Assured Destruction, just announce that if North Korea uses an atomic bomb, retaliation will be against China and not North Korea. We will hold them responsible unless they have completely severed military ties.

    But furthermore, they can escape it if the government if the government of China resigns, and to prove that really happened they must take down the Great Firewall of China and release political prisoners, both those we know about and those we don’t know about, and the released prisoners will also tell us what more needs to be done. Alternatively, they can overthrow the North Korean regime and arrest Kim. If not we do.

    Right now the strategy is to try to convince Kim that we don’t want to overthrow him, which is of course nonsense and he’s not the kind of fool to believe that. And even if he did, he knows we, and South Korea, might change our mind after we heard some more of the horrible things that he has done.

    Security based on keeping things secret is not truly stable.

    If we didn’t care about human rights at all, and if we didn’t care about protection allies maybe he he might believe that. Now, is he to believe that we care about human rights and democracy in Venezuela and in Syria and not in North Korea?

    Right now we say our hope is that Kim Jong Un will be no worse than Bashar Assad.

    Clearly this is a non-starter.

    Rather say, yes we want to overthrow him. And why don’t we? Because of the cost in lives and property destruction. This is like a hostage situation. Police don’t arrest the hostage takers because of avoidance of bloodshed. But should the hostage takers threaten real calamity then we move in regardless. You can tell Kim Jong Un that arming himself more will make him less safe, not more.

    But anyway he has the nuclear weapons because he wants to take over South Korea, not fro defense.

    We haven’t moved military against North Korea in almost 65 years, and we haven’t moved against Cuba. He knows that. A greater defense aganst invasion is not the reason he is going for nuclear weapons. That’s general theory, which does not apply to every case.

    Sammy Finkelman (02a146)

  70. lurker

    Answer questions or go do your survey elsewhere.

    Truthbetold (1ab5c1)

  71. Pinandpuller (16b0b5) — 8/8/2017 @ 3:20 pm

    Isn’t more of the same of the government picking winners and losers?

    That’s one thing Obamacare isn’t really doing. It;s making rules, but not picking any companies.

    Sammy Finkelman (02a146)

  72. I was just reading about a lady who bought a lottery ticket to show her husband how stupid he was for doing the same thing and she won a million dollars. I guess she should give it all back.

    On a side note I almost got hit in the face by a Happy Gilmore sized check someone was carrying out of the Tennessee Lottery building. It seemed like overkill.

    Pinandpuller (16b0b5)

  73. …The trouble is the North Koreans may try to eat them.

    Pinandpuller (16b0b5) — 8/8/2017 @ 2:39 pm

    My idea for defending South Korea is to invest in a few hundred thousand Mickey D’s happy meals.

    Any NORK advance would be halted at FEBA Bravo*.

    *I’m sure my terminology is antiquated as job security in government service apparently hinges on changing the jargon periodically. When I was working as a contractor the new head of the agency we serviced came up with the bright idea of classifying the unclassified cover name for the program we worked on. It was his way of leaving his mark and adding a bullet point to his resume.

    In case it’s not obvious, this is a stupid idea on multiple levels. The whole point of having an unclassified cover name is so we can talk about something without actually talking about it. In an unclassified environment. Considering this particular program had been ongoing for decades, should you classify the unclassified cover name, there are now millions of documents that need to be reviewed, marked appropriately, and secured.

    We were gobsmacked that this idiot could come up with the idea. I mean, the cost involved in terms of labor and constructing secure storage for the sheer volume of material involved should be obvious. And then, every single uncleared person who knew what was formerly an unclassified cover name such as our administrative people would have to be cleared.

    Oh, and by the way, I worked for BAE systems. The BA stands for British Aerospace. Because our parent company consisted of foreign nationals we couldn’t discuss the details of our programs. The only thing we could talk about with them was the financial arrangements of our programs. They weren’t even eligible for a clearance. But if you’re stupid enough to classify the unclassified cover name now you have post hoc illegally exported classified information.

    Fortunately we were able to talk this guy out of it.

    But this is how you come up with $6,000 toilet seats, folks.

    Steve57 (0b1dac)

  74. So to sum up what I’ve heard (in no particular order)

    – ACA smells like socialism.
    – Conservatives don’t like socialism, so they don’t like the ACA
    – The individual mandate amounts to a regressive tax and the opinion is that it hurts people who are not wealthy
    – The ACA limited choice in doctors and did not stop healthcare cost inflation
    – The ACA was designed to fail and lead to single payer, which conservatives feel is an extremely bad idea.
    – There’s a huge amount of distrust in the government to do anything right.

    Fair summary?

    curious lurker (131c4c)

  75. lurker

    Give an example of “restrained socialism”

    Truthbetold (1ab5c1)

  76. What happens when the private sector doctor who asks about guns in your house starts working for the government?

    Pinandpuller (943389)

  77. @77

    Already happening.

    Truthbetold (1ab5c1)

  78. @17. Breaking. CNN reporting NK just called Trump’s ‘fire and fury’ bluff: threatens ‘preemptive strike’ on U.S. bases in Guam.

    North Korea threatens Guam after Trump remarks | TheHill

    thehill.com/policy/…/asia…/345820-north-korea-threatens-guam-after-trump-remarks

    Ball’s back in your court, Captain. Wanna drop a dye marker, “Old Yellowstain?”

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  79. Watch out for August 21, under the cover of the solar eclipse.

    urbanleftbehind (5cdd13)

  80. @79

    Breaking. Congressman Hank Johnson says everyone on Guam can run to one side of the island at tip it over in defense of a nuke strike.

    Truthbetold (1ab5c1)

  81. ‘If they do not now accept our terms, they may expect a rain of ruin from the air the likes of which has never been seen on this earth.’Harry Truman

    “They will be met with fire and fury like the world has never seen. He has been very threatening beyond a normal state and as I said they will be met with fire and fury and frankly power the likes of which this world has never seen before.”
    Donald Trump channeling (more likely channel-surfing) HST

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  82. So Kim threatens to attack US military forces on a Pacific Island. Didn’t work out well for the attacker the last time.

    crazy (11d38b)

  83. CNN’s Erin Burnett, 7:00 PM, EDT: “Are we on the edge of a nuclear war?!?!”

    Fake news.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  84. That’s a problem if he’s playing tough for the camera because everyone knows he’s a blow-hard and a liar, especially the other Toddler in N. Korea.

    Ben burn (b3d5ab)

  85. @85. This is why we try to teach our kids not to play with matches.

    Still, some grow up to be pyromaniacs– or just maniacs who never grow up at all.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  86. @57 Ben Burn

    Who do you believe, US or your melting eyes?

    Pinandpuller (16b0b5)

  87. Patterico’s gonna be bummed; the thread’s gone from discourse on chasing off Heller to chatter of facing Hell on Earth.

    Guam… but not forgotten.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  88. Psychopaths don’t have tells like ‘ lying eye’s pin.

    Ben burn (b3d5ab)

  89. Ben bern

    Do you advocate gun control?

    Truthbetold (1ab5c1)

  90. @60 Steve57

    Sooner rather than later.

    I was looking through some probate papers from when my grandpa died in the early 80’s. When I saw how big the check was my grandma had to cut for the government I almost got sick.

    I’m sure at least two people here think RR pi$$ed it away.

    Pinandpuller (16b0b5)

  91. @67 curious lurker

    Phil Hartman. Unfrozen Cave Man Lawyer.

    Pinandpuller (16b0b5)

  92. I advocate for personal property like firearms, be afforded civil liberties in the sense that corporations enjoy personhood. It’s good for the goose as well as the gander. Good luck with attempts to assign an ID to my politics

    Ben burn (b3d5ab)

  93. Ari Fleischer

    My 1st reaction was “How could he say that?!” Too inflammatory/not presidential. 2nd reaction, if this doesn’t get China 2act, nothing will

    crazy (11d38b)

  94. @ DCSCA, #82:

    The differences being that 1) Truman was unquestionably telling the truth, and 2) he was making a threat for the purpose of save=ing lives in the long run. (And he was ultimately right. The United States killed more than 150,000 people immediately, and that same number again over the long run…to save millions of American AND Japanese lives.)

    Demosthenes (09f714)

  95. Xi read Art of the Deal, the magnificent BASTARD!

    Oh wait. That was the Art of the Schlemiel.

    Ben burn (b3d5ab)

  96. CNN broadcasting thermonuclear war survival tips from and for Honolulu: “If you’re on a beach, find a cave….” And -wait for it– ‘Duck, and cover!” Now comparing this to the Cuban Missile Crisis.

    This has got to be an installment from their ‘History of Comedy’ series.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  97. @79 Well, dogonnit – that’s a most unfortunate response from NK. It’s like they didn’t read the memo (“North Korea best not make any more threats to the United States . . .They will be met with fire and fury like the world has never seen.”). But in fairness to DJT maybe His Greatness doesn’t consider Guam (sufficiently) the US (no electoral college votes?) and maybe Kim Jong-un reckons that to be the case too (for similar or diverse reasons). Overall, I am not altogether too sanguine that this will all play out tickety-boo. One wonders how US military personnel in Guam and Seoul and Japan (etc.) are sleeping nowadays, and indeed how pleased as punch (or otherwise inclined) the natives are as well. Well . . . we’ve been having a rather bullish time at the dance of late, so should one be surprised that the Bedminster Bear’s lifting up his tiny little paws and may be on the verge of signalling the orchestra to change the melody? Can one imagine? Yes, of course. But, No – of course, not really, too. (If it helps ease matters in the least, I’ll confess that it was *me* who ate the strawberries.)

    Q! (267694)

  98. @70 Sammy

    Isn’t NK a little like China’s stepson who has grown too dangerous for a good spanking?

    I suppose China could just colonize NK.

    Pinandpuller (16b0b5)

  99. @95. Yes.

    Point is, PBS channels across the land has been airing a rebroadcast of their doc on ‘The Bomb’ — it being the first week of August and all– and teevee hound Trump likely channel-surfed into it, as it’s the way he learns history and news– so it’s probably a safe bet he picked up Truman line and regurgitated it in Trumpanese.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  100. They’re FedXing military sunblock..Billion spf..

    “Does the public understand the true DANGER yet? Then get out there and make sure THEY KNOW THEY NEED US”

    Adam Sutler–

    Ben burn (b3d5ab)

  101. Quantity has a quality all it’s own:

    The Chris Hani Baragwanath Hospital has been in the black township of Soweto in Johannesburg since World War II when it opened to care for British soldiers. Today, it is a sprawling compound of over 400 buildings housing about 3,200 beds.

    Those numbers clearly mean a lot to management because on the hospital’s website, right under its name, is the statement “The world’s third-biggest hospital, in South Africa.”

    That’s not quite right, according to our colleagues at Africa Check.

    Chris Hani Baragwanath Hospital says it trails only West China Hospital, affiliated with Sichuan University in the city of Chengdu, with about 4,300 beds, and Chang Gung Memorial Hospital, which lists about 9,000 beds.

    But Africa Check found an additional hospital that edges out the Soweto health center. The Clinical Centre of Serbia in Belgrade has 3,470 beds available.

    Pinandpuller (16b0b5)

  102. General Jack D. Ripper: Mandrake, do you recall what Clemenceau once said about war?
    Group Capt. Lionel Mandrake: No, I don’t think I do, sir, no.
    General Jack D. Ripper: He said war was too important to be left to the generals. When he said that, 50 years ago, he might have been right. But today, war is too important to be left to politicians. They have neither the time, the training, nor the inclination for strategic thought. I can no longer sit back and allow Communist infiltration, Communist indoctrination, Communist subversion and the international Communist conspiracy to sap and impurify all of our precious bodily fluids.

    Ben burn (b3d5ab)

  103. I was wondering why everyone was mad at the (awesome) commenter, nk, and slowly realized y’all were talking about North Korea.

    The North Korean government just gave Trump what he so badly needed. What idiots. Ultimately, the blood will be on Madeline Albright’s hands too.

    Dustin (ba94b2)

  104. @103: “Gentlemen, you can’t fight in here! This is the War Room.” – President Merkin Muffley [Peter Sellers] ‘Dr. Strangelove’ 1964

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  105. @74 Steve57

    Were you one of the Hessians DCSCA was worried about?

    Pinandpuller (16b0b5)

  106. It’s not a coup. It’s more like a conspiracy or if you prefer collusion.

    A plan titled “Democracy Matters: Strategic Plan for Action” found its way into the public domain some months ago, and is currently getting quite a bit of attention. It is a fundraising document created on behalf of four left-wing organizations: Media Matters, American Bridge, CREW and Shareblue. All four organizations were founded by David Brock, and it is likely that he wrote the “strategic plan.”

    The document appears to have been written around the time of President Trump’s inauguration, and may have been prepared for use at this Democratic donor conference. It sets out a plan to destroy the Trump administration and return Democrats to power. The document is embedded in its entirety at the end of this post, so you can read it and draw your own conclusions.

    crazy (11d38b)

  107. V

    “Allow me first to apologize for this interruption. I do, like many of you, appreciate the comforts of every day routine- the security of the familiar, the tranquility of repetition. I enjoy them as much as any bloke. But in the spirit of commemoration, thereby those important events of the past usually associated with someone’s death or the end of some awful bloody struggle, a celebration of a nice holiday, I thought we could mark this November the 5th, a day that is sadly no longer remembered, by taking some time out of our daily lives to sit down and have a little chat. There are of course those who do not want us to speak. I suspect even now, orders are being shouted into telephones, and men with guns will soon be on their way. Why? Because while the truncheon may be used in lieu of conversation, words will always retain their power. Words offer the means to meaning, and for those who will listen, the enunciation of truth. And the truth is, there is something terribly wrong with this country, isn’t there? Cruelty and injustice, intolerance and oppression. And where once you had the freedom to object, to think and speak as you saw fit, you now have censors and systems of surveillance coercing your conformity and soliciting your submission. How did this happen? Who’s to blame? Well certainly there are those more responsible than others, and they will be held accountable, but again truth be told, if you’re looking for the guilty, you need only look into a mirror. I know why you did it. I know you were afraid. Who wouldn’t be? War, terror, disease. There were a myriad of problems which conspired to corrupt your reason and rob you of your common sense. Fear got the best of you, and in your panic you turned to the now high chancellor, Adam Sutler. He promised you order, he promised you peace, and all he demanded in return was your silent, obedient consent. Last night I sought to end that silence. Last night I destroyed the Old Bailey, to remind this country of what it has forgotten. More than four hundred years ago a great citizen wished to embed the fifth of November forever in our memory. His hope was to remind the world that fairness, justice, and freedom are more than words, they are perspectives. So if you’ve seen nothing, if the crimes of this government remain unknown to you then I would suggest you allow the fifth of November to pass unmarked. But if you see what I see, if you feel as I feel, and if you would seek as I seek, then I ask you to stand beside me one year from tonight, outside the gates of Parliament, and together we shall give them a fifth of November that shall never, ever be forgot”

    Ben burn (12ab2c)

  108. @82 DCSCA

    Aren’t you usually first to say history rhymes?

    Pinandpuller (16b0b5)

  109. crazy

    The media matters plan is propaganda intended for release to the public, disguised as an internal doc.

    Truthbetold (1ab5c1)

  110. Sen just said Trump can’t war with NorKs without Congressional permission..

    Hasn’t he heard of AUMF?

    Ben burn (12ab2c)

  111. It’s not so much a nuclear exchange as much as a nuclear secret Santa.

    Pinandpuller (16b0b5)

  112. If I had used “nucular” that could have been penned by W. Pardon the redundancy.

    Pinandpuller (16b0b5)

  113. @109. There’s rhymes and then there’s crimes; in this case: Grand Theft Trumpo.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  114. @85 BB

    Shovel ready bombs weren’t exactly…shovel ready heh heh heh!

    Pinandpuller (16b0b5)

  115. Trump card played: talk thermonuclear war. Knocks Russia story off the front pages.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  116. The Russia nonsense is to distract from the Awan scandal.

    Has nothing to do with the election!

    Truthbetold (1ab5c1)

  117. DCSCA (797bc0) — 8/8/2017 @ 5:09 pm

    When you’re right, you’re right.

    felipe (023cc9)

  118. @86 DCSCA

    One morning while camping my dad told me I was going to build the fire and if I didn’t get it lit we weren’t eating a hot breakfast.

    I constructed the fire and when I opened the matchbox there was one match inside.

    Stay tuned…

    If you want to start a fire do you first write to Pueblo, CO?

    Pinandpuller (16b0b5)

  119. @93 BB

    Show me on the doll where the bad man filed off your serial number.

    Pinandpuller (16b0b5)

  120. Raising a glass of soda water – cheers happyfeet.

    mg (31009b)

  121. South Korea: Moonies.

    North Korea: Jehovah’s Witnesses.

    H/T DCSCA.

    Pinandpuller (943389)

  122. Ben Burn, at 111: what’s the legal argument under which the AUMF applies to North Korea?

    For what it’s worth, my view is that, because the Korean war ended in an armistice and a peace was never declared, the President doesn’t need new Congressional authorization to act in this case; whatever authorized the initial involvement in 1950 is still active unless it was specifically repealed.

    aphrael (e0cdc9)

  123. @122 mg

    Day 2.

    Pinandpuller (943389)

  124. If you want to target a deceitful do-nothing incumbent look no farther than here. This is neither leadership nor a profile in courage.

    crazy (11d38b)

  125. Damn fool, more for the fact he kept Allison Lundergen Grimes (Kamala who?) out of the spotlight. I draw my check indirectly from the spousal unit that a certain former poster had a measurable contempt so far no complaints on that front.

    urbanleftbehind (79dff4)

  126. @97 DCSCA

    My son is on Oahu. It’s a lovely place.

    If PDJT has to nuke Pyongyang it sucks to be them.

    Pinandpuller (16b0b5)

  127. If memory serves, NK hasn’t signed/ratified any of the nuclear test ban treaties restricting/barring atmospheric and space testing.

    If NK’s does have a missile ready warhead w/o perfecting a reentry system yet and a successfully tested delivery system– the next step to tweak Trump’s pecker in this brinkmanship game is to test the integrated system by lofting an ICBM w/a warhead along the vertical trajectories of the previous test flights straight up and detonate it far out in space. A show difficult for Trump to trump w/blustery rhetoric.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  128. Please to meet you. Won’t you guess my name?

    Pinandpuller (16b0b5)

  129. The thing about KJU is, he can tell his people he nuked us and it really doesn’t matter. It’s like the Truman Show over there.

    It was for a couple of years anyway.

    Pinandpuller (16b0b5)

  130. I don’t take all my foreign policy advice from Dennis Miller.

    I do agree when he said sometimes America has to go to the bazaar, set up a table and display our wares.

    Pinandpuller (943389)

  131. Who’s bright idea was it to get rid of the neutron bomb? I feel like someone here knows.

    Pinandpuller (943389)

  132. @116 DCSCA

    Truman drops the bombs on Japan, knocks Margaret’s bad review off B6.

    Pinandpuller (943389)

  133. 129. DCSCA (797bc0) — 8/8/2017 @ 6:28 pm

    If memory serves, NK hasn’t signed/ratified any of the nuclear test ban treaties restricting/barring atmospheric and space testing.

    I think they signed the nuclear non proliferation treaty, but they broke it. That treaty would preclude any kind of testing. So far, North Korea has kept to the standard of no testing in the atmosphere, so that would be a kind of red line.

    If NK’s does have a missile ready warhead w/o perfecting a reentry system yet and a successfully tested delivery system– the next step to tweak Trump’s pecker in this brinkmanship game is to test the integrated system by lofting an ICBM w/a warhead along the vertical trajectories of the previous test flights straight up and detonate it far out in space. A show difficult for Trump to trump w/blustery rhetoric.

    They say there are two things North Korea needs to threaten the United States, but they don’t really need the second one.

    One is a nuclear warhead and detonation system that survives re-entry – testing it out in space would show they have solved remote detonation but not re-entry.

    And the other is an accurate guidance system, so they could make sure the nuclear bomb destroys the target and not something 20 or 30 miles away — and the type of bombs North Korea has don’t have a big zone of destruction.

    Sammy Finkelman (a3d36d)

  134. One is a nuclear warhead and detonation system that survives re-entry – testing it out in space would show they have solved remote detonation but not re-entry.

    Yeah but the point would be to to demonstrate the integrated system is operational- getting the warhead light and small to mate w/t ICBM and loft it. The reentry problem is less of an issue in the immediate game they’re playing — a la the problem the V-2 had which was solved in months. Demonstrating an operational system as is verifies it for them, the world and tweaks Trump a/t same time. Regardless, it’s a kick in the balls.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  135. They haven’t demonstrated really the ability to launch a missile that could arc far enoi
    Ugh Guam, yet this is a regime that once tried to rake out the south Korean cabinetm

    narciso (d1f714)

  136. No love for this thread Epsom Helpcenter Line?

    Pinandpuller (943389)

  137. PDJT may reveal a new KEW that gets you to KJU in one stroke.

    Pinandpuller (943389)

  138. Who’s bright idea was it to get rid of the neutron bomb?

    That would be Ronald Reagan (but we kept a few hundred collecting dust until 1992). It was one of the Army Lance missiles. Interestingly enough, the largely similar (and extremely versatile) ATACMs weapon is in use by the South Koreans, and it wouldn’t be technologically impossible for them to have this capability pretty quickly. But neutron bombs aren’t quite as helpful as you might think. To get the effect (killing people and not breaking stuff) you have to turn down the destructive radius. To be effective against a very large military like North Korea’s you would need thousands of these things, and they would be able to counterfire.

    My point being that you’d wind up sparing North Korean infrastructure at the expense of Seoul’s and possibly Japan’s. It would be better strategy to just use conventional nuclear weapons if you were actually choosing to use nuclear weapons.

    Dustin (ba94b2)

  139. I had professional interactions with Danny Tarkanian about 20 years ago.

    He is not the sharpest knife in the drawer.

    But he’s never been able to gain any real traction in GOP politics in Nevada, and I don’t expect he will be able to do so against Heller next year. I expect that in the fall we will see other Nev GOP candidates emerge to take Heller on in a primary. Notwithstanding his name, Danny has never been a guy who was able to suck up all the oxygen in the air, and close off a race to other GOP challengers.

    shipwreckedcrew (993483)

  140. Probably, recall there were two candidates in the 2010 primary, sue Lowndes, who uttered a Tinsley gaffe re barter and Healthcare, that’s how we end up with Latin angle

    narciso (d1f714)


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