Report: Possible Terror Attack at London Bridge
The Daily Mail reports:
A white van has reportedly ploughed into 20 pedestrians in a ‘terror attack’ on London Bridge station.
Armed police are said to be at the scene while people have been seen fleeing the landmark in central London.
There are have been unconfirmed reports of at least one victim being stabbed.
London Bridge and the area around it has been closed due to a ‘major police incident’, TFL said.
Witnesses told the BBC that a white van veered off the road on London Bridge and hit five or six people.
Initial scenes on Twitter are grim. For example:
Horrific scene at London Bridge… bodies strewn over the pavement. B&Q van mounted the pavement. I feel sick pic.twitter.com/quDYWHRum3
— Ben Leo (@benleo89) June 3, 2017
UPDATE: There are also unconfirmed reports of related stabbings at a restaurant and of possible gunshots. This early on, it’s impossible to say exactly what is going on.
[Cross-posted at RedState and The Jury Talks Back.]
UPDATE: There are also unconfirmed reports of related stabbings at a restaurant and of possible gunshots. This early on, it’s impossible to say exactly what is going on.
Patterico (115b1f) — 6/3/2017 @ 3:09 pm“London Bridge is down” is what the palace will say to the PM to indicate the Queen is dead
they have it all planned out already
happyfeet (28a91b) — 6/3/2017 @ 3:17 pmCentral London… Saturday night… 10-11 ish… pleasant June night… streets, theatres, river walk… eateries and pubs full and busy… brings back good memories — it’s such an open and easy target for cowards.
Sucks.
Keep Calm And Carry On.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6dZz_gSY-_M
DCSCA (797bc0) — 6/3/2017 @ 3:20 pmEvery day a new reason for Brexit.
harkin (299d24) — 6/3/2017 @ 3:21 pmScotland Yard confirms– second ‘incident’ Borough Market, not far from LB.
DCSCA (797bc0) — 6/3/2017 @ 3:23 pmsadly they will not learn any lesson from this,
http://www.melaniephillips.com/attacking-corbyn-wont-extricate-mrs-may-hole-shes-dug/
narciso (d1f714) — 6/3/2017 @ 3:33 pmLondoners have handled everything from IRA troubles to the frigging Nazi Blitz. The Brits will run this nuisance to ground.
DCSCA (797bc0) — 6/3/2017 @ 3:40 pmexcept the notion, certainly among labourites, and certain tories, recall the gitmo detainee had been given a flat, and other remuneration is surrender,
narciso (d1f714) — 6/3/2017 @ 3:47 pmThe police report “men of Mediterranean appearance” may be involved.
Those damned Italians again.
Mike K (f469ea) — 6/3/2017 @ 4:06 pm10, pakis would be too obvious, it’s those guys from Taken
urbanleftbehind (847a06) — 6/3/2017 @ 4:11 pmOne can hope the gunshots are in retaliation too. The best powder is held until this coming Friday evening.
urbanleftbehind (847a06) — 6/3/2017 @ 4:12 pmThree locations now, adding Vauxhall, and throats slit, people mowed down, cops with billy clubs only showing up.
If this is high alert, what is low alert?
As Mark Steyn said, they can’t stop terrorism but they can stop changes in the weather? The ruling class is killing us.
Patricia (5fc097) — 6/3/2017 @ 4:15 pmBut we need to let the refugees in otherwise they will hate us and cause more terrorism.
NJRob (0f0cad) — 6/3/2017 @ 4:23 pm@13. Covfefe; Steyn is Canadian.
DCSCA (797bc0) — 6/3/2017 @ 4:23 pmand he’s british, (note his accent) Belgian and jewish, but he happens to be right, more times than he wishes to be,
narciso (d1f714) — 6/3/2017 @ 4:30 pmAmusing they’re calling it ‘London Bridge’ as it’s actually ‘New’ London Bridge. Old London Bridge was bought by an American in ’67, dismantled and shipped to Lake Havasu City, AZ. When they were dismantling it the Brits marketed souvenir fragments encased in lucite for ten shillings as desk paperweights; one of which sits on the family mantle.
DCSCA (797bc0) — 6/3/2017 @ 4:30 pmas he pointed out last week, the ira didn’t have 3,000 active fighters at the top of the troubles
narciso (d1f714) — 6/3/2017 @ 4:32 pmAFL-CIO,
I’m speaking for myself, not Steyn.
Moron.
NJRob (0f0cad) — 6/3/2017 @ 4:32 pm…and a Ginger.
urbanleftbehind (847a06) — 6/3/2017 @ 4:36 pm@12. See 14.
DCSCA (797bc0) — 6/3/2017 @ 4:37 pm@18. Steyn – Moron. Works. Go w/it.
@17. That’ll get your Irish up, Nabisco– crackers; purveyor of fake news.
DCSCA (797bc0) — 6/3/2017 @ 4:39 pmHappy Ramadan.
Rev.Hoagie® (630eca) — 6/3/2017 @ 4:42 pmOh Lord, more terror: the Captain has begun to tweet.
DCSCA (797bc0) — 6/3/2017 @ 4:45 pmTwo scoops with your covfete and strawberries tonight, sir!
I know Steyn is Canadian. He was speaking about the West and their “get used to it” terror philosophy.
Patricia (5fc097) — 6/3/2017 @ 4:50 pm@24- The goal among some is to live like an Israeli.
DCSCA (797bc0) — 6/3/2017 @ 4:54 pmhe’s like the bill murray character in ‘scrooge’ patricia, a collection of trite aphorisms tied by bailing wire,
narciso (d1f714) — 6/3/2017 @ 4:54 pm@26- Nabisco, purveyor of fake news, the Captain stole your safe word: covfefe.
DCSCA (797bc0) — 6/3/2017 @ 4:56 pmyou’re lucky I hold a hold civil tongue, (redacted)
https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/3717339/london-bridge-attack-car-police-response-latest/
narciso (d1f714) — 6/3/2017 @ 4:59 pm@28. The Sun UK?? A Murdoch tabloid??? Covfefe again, Nabisco; crackers– purveyor of fake news, or in the case of their Page 3: falsies.
DCSCA (797bc0) — 6/3/2017 @ 5:09 pmWhen will the Brits s**tcan the Old Yellowstain policy towards Islamic terror?
harkin (610d75) — 6/3/2017 @ 5:14 pm“Steyn is Canadian.”
Living in New Hampshire.
Mike K (f469ea) — 6/3/2017 @ 5:17 pm@31. Yes– we let them in. But maybe not for long, eh.
DCSCA (797bc0) — 6/3/2017 @ 5:20 pmrest assured the jackalope would have sent back Solzhenitsyn, as he would do with hirsi ali,
narciso (d1f714) — 6/3/2017 @ 5:24 pm@30. Old habits are hard to break, harkin. 1066 and all that.
DCSCA (797bc0) — 6/3/2017 @ 5:29 pmSky News:
Apparently, the third incident at Vauxhall was not a terror attack.
Dana (023079) — 6/3/2017 @ 5:29 pmthe One Love concert will have to include today’s terrorisms too now
you would think anyway
happyfeet (28a91b) — 6/3/2017 @ 5:35 pmObama said two years ago, “And lest we get on our high horse and think this is unique to some other place, remember that during the Crusades and the Inquisition, people committed terrible deeds in the name of Christ.”
AZ Bob (07f1eb) — 6/3/2017 @ 5:44 pmDon’t get on your high horse with me AZ Bob, remember that under King David the Israelites committed terrible deeds in the name of Yahweh.
Rev.Hoagie® (630eca) — 6/3/2017 @ 5:56 pm@37. Meh. We’d debate Brits in pubs and they’d laugh at Americans, reminding us our problems were young compared to theirs and chiefly black, white and hispanic. London is truly a microcosm of old Empire legacies that’s been stewing for a lot longer and it’s quite a tough meal to digest. From the Paki-Indian curry and lamb set to Jamaicans and–always– the Irish, not to mention cultural skews like the skinheads and such. Much of London real estate these days is owned by Arabs as well and unlike America, Britain’s society much more stratified by class. Islamic culture is there to stay. Unfortunately, over time, they’ll eventually work this crap out of their society– but it’s going to take time– and good police work. And patience– something Americans, at least to them, seldom exhibit.
DCSCA (797bc0) — 6/3/2017 @ 6:19 pmthis will go down the memory hole, as events this time last year, did,
narciso (d1f714) — 6/3/2017 @ 6:21 pmit’s like a game of twister, the previous administration burned his predecessor, john Bennett as well
http://www.newsbusters.org/blogs/nb/tim-graham/2017/06/02/new-york-times-outs-cias-top-spy-iran-hes-hardline
narciso (d1f714) — 6/3/2017 @ 6:28 pmso which pose shall we adopt now,
https://pjmedia.com/homeland-security/2017/06/03/isis-newspaper-days-before-london-bridge-new-uk-attack-definitely-coming/
narciso (d1f714) — 6/3/2017 @ 6:39 pmIf you really believe moslems waging jihad against the Brits is some left over anti-colonialism you need to reexamine what’s going in. Similarly, if you believe eventually they will work this crap out then you don’t know about moslems or religious war. Yes, there are Irish, skinheads, Jamacains, Indians and all sorts of people but none that want to convert the country to their religion nor want to turn Parliament into a Caliphate.
BTW, they estimate 28,000 active terrorists there not 3,000.
Bring in the “refugees”. Allahu Akbar!
Rev.Hoagie® (630eca) — 6/3/2017 @ 6:44 pmPossible? Possible?
Evan Carter (550dba) — 6/3/2017 @ 6:51 pm#39: Time, and demographics, is on the side of the Muslims, not Great Britain.
Evan Carter (550dba) — 6/3/2017 @ 6:52 pmthe Melanie phillips piece up thread, disabuses most of man of mysteries, maunderings,
narciso (d1f714) — 6/3/2017 @ 7:00 pmI disagree would may do anything different after june 8th, now corbyn might very well surrender, he’s a character out of Forsyth’s fourth protocol.
http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2017/06/03/london-terror-saturday-attacks-tipping-point-in-campaign-to-destroy-west.html
narciso (d1f714) — 6/3/2017 @ 7:01 pmsteyn points to judge Jeannine, that borough park is a thousand year old market,
narciso (d1f714) — 6/3/2017 @ 7:09 pm@47. Nabisco, crackers; still the purveyor of fake views as news. Some bats are blind but you’re simply a thick stick of ash. Covfefe! Play ball!
“Swing for the fences!” – Donald J. Trump, debate quote, 2/25/2016
DCSCA (797bc0) — 6/3/2017 @ 7:25 pmwhen they blow st, paul’s cathedral to bits, well they may not need to, the dilsbury mosque was originally a Methodist church
narciso (d1f714) — 6/3/2017 @ 7:27 pm@45. Certainly assimilation of some breadth and depth is inevitable– over time to be sure– but peacefully, by generation, certainly not through violence. History will mark this period of rage as an anomaly.
DCSCA (797bc0) — 6/3/2017 @ 7:39 pmSpeaking of “terrible deeds”, there’s Barack Obama.
Colonel Haiku (2601c0) — 6/3/2017 @ 7:41 pmbecause the next generation will be more moderate, right.
narciso (d1f714) — 6/3/2017 @ 7:46 pm51… shorter ASPCA: have ostrich, will travel.
Colonel Haiku (2601c0) — 6/3/2017 @ 7:47 pm51 – in just about every country in the Muslim world, its human rights that are the anomaly and terrorism that is the norm.
https://www.thereligionofpeace.com/attacks/attacks.aspx?Yr=Last30
But keep importing it while insisting it’s just a bump in the road.
And you’re not alone, over at MSNBC they are asking if the London Police Are “overreacting”
http://www.mediaite.com/online/msnbc-anchors-response-to-london-terror-attack-could-police-be-overreacting/
harkin (610d75) — 6/3/2017 @ 7:53 pmIf you really believe moslems waging jihad against the Brits is some left over anti-colonialism you need to reexamine what’s going in.
You miss his point: almost all the Moslems in the UK are there because they or their parents immigrated from former parts of the Empire, and in some cases have lived in the UK for decades.
kishnevi (6a5d3c) — 6/3/2017 @ 8:14 pmThey aren’t motivated by anticolonialism but they are products of colonialism.
The larger problem is there is no national future they will assimilate to.
narciso (d1f714) — 6/3/2017 @ 8:26 pm#39: Time, and demographics, is on the side of the Muslims, not Great Britain.
Hardly. There’s about 2.8 million Muslims in the UK, about 5% of the total population. Using Hoagie’s figure (the Fox op-ed says 20,000) for every jihadi there are 99 Muslims who aren’t, and about 1800 non Muslims.
kishnevi (6a5d3c) — 6/3/2017 @ 8:30 pmSo the dog from the puppy mill keeps peeing on the carpet; it’s exasperating. So what discipline do you propose- smack it w/a newspaper? Shoot it? Halt arms sales and business dealing to all Muslim nations until they clean house? Or perhaps selecting a mosque at random in Mecca for a cruise missile strike after each terror ‘incident’- or surround one in Uxbridge- trot out worshippers and execute them in the parking lot? So there’s, collateral damage… would that be satisfying enough to teach’em a Western lesson, cowboys? Quite Roman; certainly Soviet and a somewhat Naziesque solution. What do you propose? Unplug the internet to all Muslim lands?
“Sometimes you get a pooch that’s unscrewable.” – Chuck Yeager [Sam Shepard] ‘The Right Stuff’ 1983
DCSCA (797bc0) — 6/3/2017 @ 8:31 pmIt’s striking the terrorism consultant (a fmr aide to bill white) has to disabuse the manic reporter.
narciso (d1f714) — 6/3/2017 @ 8:38 pm@55. So what’s your point– some worship the bottle; 14,250 Americans alone have been killed in drunk driving accidents since January, 2017…
You’re never going to kill off an ‘idea.’ There’s still flat-earther and Nazis around today.
http://www.romans322.com/daily-death-rate-statistics.php
DCSCA (797bc0) — 6/3/2017 @ 8:59 pmThats a hot take off the griddle,
narciso (d1f714) — 6/3/2017 @ 9:03 pmWell, one thing, they don’t seem to have any more bombs.
Like I said, bombs are hard to build and how to build them cannot be learned over the Internet. Personal instruction is needed.
A problem is, if not bombs, guns may be available, and if not guns, cars.
Guns kill fewer people than bombs, and cars (ordinary ones without explosives) kill the fewest people, but are the most widely available, and I’m not sure what you can do in the way of car control.
Sammy Finkelman (4fd7a7) — 6/3/2017 @ 9:14 pmSadiq Dinkins?
urbanleftbehind (847a06) — 6/3/2017 @ 9:28 pmThe death toll now is 6, with some 20 wounded (no some 30 taken to hospitals), and three(3) terrorists shot dead by police. The attackers were wearing suicide vests, but there were no explosives inside. That was probably designed to ensure police would kill them so they couldn’t be interrogated.
http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/london-bridge-attack/london-bridge-closed-after-major-incident-report-van-hitting-people-n767966
A lot of people have been prevented from going home, but the attack is probably over. They don’t split it up like this. Everyone is on alert and police are all over, and terrorists knew this would happen. The whole attack, from the beginning to the end lasted 8 minutes till all 3 men were shot dead. (5:08 to 5:16 pm EDT – 10:08 to 10:16 London time)
The gunshots people heard probably came from police. News reports have not sdaid if any of the deaths are from the knives.
It was a combined car and knife attack. That kind of combination operation I think was pioneered in Israel in the last year or two, but maybe I’m wrong about this. I recall something in Ottawa..
Five people were killed by a man armed with a car and a knife (some attempting to escape from him) on Westminister Bridge on March 22.
Sammy Finkelman (4fd7a7) — 6/3/2017 @ 9:30 pmThe van hit people oon he sidewalk at about 50 miles per hour. One of the attackers who got out of the vehicle had a machete. The New York Times has a map here:
https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2017/06/03/world/europe/london-bridge-attacks-maps-video-photos.html?_r=0
The Guardian says a stabbing at Vauxhall is not related. (but was apparently ordinary crime)
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/jun/04/london-attacks-what-we-know-so-far-london-bridge-borough-market-vauxhall
A journalist (Geoff Ho, a business editor with Express Newspapers) was stabbed and his friends don’t know his condition.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/06/04/missing-london-terror-attack/
All the news reports are still short, and don’t explain where the death of 6 came from.
Sammy Finkelman (4fd7a7) — 6/3/2017 @ 9:39 pmAny word on whether it is terrorists?
AZ Bob (07f1eb) — 6/3/2017 @ 9:52 pmGreat Britin had reduced the terror alert. They probably got the remnantes of the Manchester cell but there was another one.
They don’t like leaks because if the terrorists realize the police are getting close, they may be spurred into action. Here the police probably had no clue at all.
The first figure of 20 injured victims taken to hospitals cae from London Ambulance Service. Others were treated at the scene. The figure of 6 killed is several hours old, dates back to maybe no more than an hour after the attack. (the number of people not taken to hospitals but pronounced dead?)
TYhe attackers stabbed a girl about 10 or 15 times probably because she was crying out ‘help me, help me” while the other people they stabbed were quiet.
They attackers were screaming something about Allah. I wouldn’t rely on anyone nedessarily getting their exact words right so there’s no point in being more specific in quoting the witness.
Someone tried to fight off the attackers by throwing bottles, glasses, stools and chairs, but it didn’t really help although he hit one on the back of the head – well, they chased him, but he got away, so maybe it did help by diverting them and letting other people escape and he got away too.
A bartender, in a crowded restaurant, hid in a garbage bin for half an hour.
Borough Market is full of bars and restaurants.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/06/04/london-eyewitness-attacker-stabbed-girl-said-allah/
Sammy Finkelman (44bd3a) — 6/3/2017 @ 9:55 pm67. AZ Bob (07f1eb) — 6/3/2017 @ 9:52 pm
It’s now been labeled a terrorist attack, although authorities were cautious at first, with Prime Minsiter Teresa May saying only it was “being treated as a potential act of terrorism” and calling it “these dreadful events.”
The media now seems to be unhesitant about calling it terror.
Sammy Finkelman (44bd3a) — 6/3/2017 @ 9:59 pmI expect more of an effort for knife-control.
Kevin M (25bbee) — 6/4/2017 @ 12:04 am86 assimilating these barbaric ingrates and the people who want them alive.
mg (9ec93a) — 6/4/2017 @ 12:29 amIt’s been going on for 1400 years, sh*t-fer-brains. This is mainstream Islam. If Charles Martel had an internet connection and could read your historically illiterate idiocy he’d be spinning in his grave. I don’t want to waste the bandwidth to go over how Muslim slavers/pirates used ports along the North African coast as bases to raid the north coast of the Mediterranean for centuries. How they established bases along the southern coast of Europe, seizing entire islands in the Aegean, to make their raiding for booty and slaves even easier. In 1518 Ottoman slavers from the Barbary coast captured and enslaved most of the population of Baltimore, County Cork, Ireland.
Barbary Coast, ring a bell, numbskull? The downside of independence from Britain was American merchant ships lost Royal Navy protection. The Barbary pirates immediately began seizing American ships and enslaving their crews. Moroccan pirates did the same and also far out into the Atlantic. Thomas Jefferson, in March 1785 the US Ambassador to France, traveled to London to call on the Tripolitan envoy to England along with John Adams. They wanted to know why his country’s ships, all those countries’ ships, were doing this as we had given them no cause for such hostility. Here was the Tripolitan’s reply, as Jefferson reported it Congress.
Yes there will be assimilation. Now the pirates/terrorists/slavers (Rotherham ring a bell?) don’t need to establish bases as they’ve been inside. The countries that are stupid enough to let in this invading army, countries that stupidly imagine contrary to the entire history of Islam that Muslims will become good Britons and Europeans drinking down at the pub or sipping wine, will assimilate to the ways of their new overlords who arrive with a blueprint for government and society which they regard as superior in every way to the weak, decadent nations they have nothing but contempt for.
Islam can not change. The Quran is the eternal, uncreated, immutable, perfect world of Allah. It can’t be altered by mere human beings.
People who know nothing about Islam think that Islam just needs a reformation and it’s going to turn out just like the Protestant reformation and we’re going to get an Islam we can live with. This is sheer lunacy. The fundamentals of Islam and the fundamentals of Christianity are polar opposites. If a Christian returns to the fundamentals of Christianity he’ll turn the other cheek countless times. What the know-nothings don’t realize is that Islam has had numerous Martin Luthers. “Reformers” such as ibn Hanbal (8th to 9th century), ibn Taymiyyah (13th to 14th century), ibn ʿAbd al-Wahhab (18th century), Hassan al-Banna and Sayyid Qutb (20th century). And every time Islam reforms, just as Martin Luther reformed Christianity, by stripping out all the “non-Biblical” accretions and returning to scripture alone as lived by the prophet, you get something like ISIS. Every single time.
The Quran is a short book; my copy was transliterated by Yusuf Ali is only 441 pages long. Literally you can not turn to a page that doesn’t contain commands to hate the unbelievers simply because they’re unbelievers, never befriend them unless you might be outnumbered and in danger and then you may pretend to be their friends (taqqiyah means concealment; it is one of several forms of deceit that Islam encourages and the verses mean a Muslim may conceal his or her sentiments, true allegiance, and indeed the fact that they’re Muslim at all), to fight them, if they’re idolators kill them or force them to convert, if they’re “people of the book” (primarily Jews and Christians but also Zoroastrians and a few other odds and ends) they have a third option of paying the crippling poll tax called the jizya which allows them to live as barely tolerated subjects. There are at least 110 direct calls to jihad, six verses that contain the phrase “kill them wherever you find them,” and numerous verses commanding Muslims to “strike the neck,” i.e. behead people. ISIS is, in short, following Allah’s commands as exemplified by their prophet to the letter.
In the final copy of Dabiq in 2016 (it was replaced by Rumiyah), which can’t properly be called a propaganda magazine as it’s brutally honest, they had a very well written article with better copy editing than you’ll find in any US magazine titled “Why we hate you and why we fight you.” The primary reason they hate us is that we are unbelievers. Yes, they hate us for fighting back. For killing them, our foreign policies. But the article points out these are really beside the point. As the article points out, we could meet all their demands in that regard (OBL and Ayman al Zawahiri said the same thing) and they would still hate us because we are unbelievers.
Muslim men are allowed to marry non-Muslim women and I can cite at least a few fatwas, at least one within the past year, reminding such men that they must hate these women in their hearts, and moreover, they must make their wives know it.
The article cited this verse.
Surah 60:4
Please, scour the Bible. You will find nothing like this in the New or Old Testaments where Jesus or Yahweh commands Christians or Jews to have “animosity and hatred forever” between them and adherents of other religions until they convert. In fact, I believe Islam is unique among all the major word’s faiths in commanding the believers to hate unbelievers.
Islam is not like other religions. And DCSCA thinks it’s only a matter of time until this tide of Muslim immigrants, still practicing the their religion as our Western laws allow and listening to their Saudi-trained preachers, assimilate to become like us. People they are commanded to hate. Fool.
Once again our spineless “leaders” assure us that tonight’s terror attack in London has nothing to do with Islam. Let’s see what Allah has to say on the subject.
Surah 2:216
Golly gee whilakers, they’re supposed to fight us. I wonder how they’re supposed to fight us.
Surah 3:151
It certainly looks like terrorizing the disbelievers is supposed to be a team effort. “We” being Allah and the Muslims. But certainly Allah, the merciful, the beneficent, could approve of terror. I wonder if he takes this back later in the Quran.
Surah 8:12
No, he doesn’t take it back. Perhaps I’m taking it out of context. That’s what Muslims keep telling me. But no matter how much context I put the violent, hateful verses of the Quran; the historical context, the direct literary context, the context of the Quran as a whole, these Muslims keep insisting that there’s some fantasy context that makes these violent, hateful verses peaceful and loving.
They are of course lying as they are obliged to do either to spread Islam or to protect Islam and/or the ummah and protect them from harm or merely to prevent Islam from denigration. So I simply cut to the chase and see what Muhammad’s understanding of Allah’s commands on the use of terror was.
Sahih al-Bukhari – Book of Fighting for the Cause of Allah (Jihaad) – (122)Chapter: “I have been made victorious…”
Nothing to do with Islam my a$$. You can’t get more Islamic then following the example of Muhammad and fulfilling the commands of Allah. The use of terror is quintessentially Islamic. This ideology can not change. It is incompatible with any country with a constitutional form of government that guarantees individual rights such as freedom of speech, freedom of religion (all schools of Sharia whether Sunni or Shia mandate the death penalty for anyone who leaves Islam*), and equality before the law. At least as long as the population is below critical mass. There are at last count 44 conflicts around the world where Muslims are at war with their neighbors.
Despite what the weepy, spineless, guilt ridden “leaders” of the west would have you believe, the IS affiliated terrorist federation is not challenging the government of the Philippines at Marawi City in Mindanao, and Muslim terrorists are not bombing police stations, schools, or beheading Buddhist nuns or teachers in southern Thailand, because they’re upset over the Arab-Israeli conflict, Western military in Syria, Iraq, or Afghanistan, or US or French or British foreign policy in general.
It’s a simple fact. When the Muslim population grows large enough they simply will not be ruled by non-Muslims, such as the Buddhists in Thailand or the Catholics in the Philippines. It’s a religious imperative.
Surah 47:35
Anybody who thinks this is a group of people who can be assimilated is a blind fool.
Steve57 (0b1dac) — 6/4/2017 @ 3:28 amMany thanks, Steve57.
mg (31009b) — 6/4/2017 @ 4:55 am“History will mark this period of rage as an anomaly.”
Charles Martel could not be reached for comment but his action saved Europe for 1200 years.
Unfortunately for Europe, the last Carolingian died in 1122.
Mike K (f469ea) — 6/4/2017 @ 5:05 amMaybe if hannigan hadn’t been wasting with this:
http://nypost.com/2017/06/03/these-obama-cronies-should-be-grilled-for-his-intelligence-unmaskings/
narciso (d1f714) — 6/4/2017 @ 5:25 amUsing my figures (since Fox op-ed numbers like most media is questionable) for every jihadi there are about 99 moslems in support supplying money, weapons, logistics, intel, internet access and a thousand other “support” functions. Just like for our soldier we put in the field has behind him that don’t see action or pull a trigger. You do realize that , don’t you?
There are three kinds of moslem, kishnevi, whether you like it or not. The first type will kill you, the second will help him kill you and the third won’t kill you but will not stop the first two.
Those 1800 non moslems you mention are called “targets” by moslems. Every single one of them. And those 1800 British citizens are not having children. The moslems are multiplying like maggots.
No kishnevi, you and DCSCA miss the point. It matters not why the moslems are there only that they are. However, there has never until recently been any immigration of size to speak of by moslems “former parts of the Empire” any more than there has been by moslems to America. For the most part the British Empire to its credit spread Christianity and did not adopt Islam. So unless you are aware of some large documented migration of moslems to England and America you need to realize the west is bringing this on themselves.
Moslems either in Europe or here are there for only one reason: conquest. They have no desire to become citizens of Europe nor America because their “citizenship” is Islam. They have no intention of assimilating and to do so would make them Apostates (which is equal to “traitor” in Western lingo before an entire political party made it chic to be one). They will obey the laws “on the surface” until they have the power to change them which is where they are now (see how fast the phony “moslem travel ban” by Trump was eliminated?).
We need to stop immigration for economic and demographic reasons. We need to stop moslem immigration for the safety and security of America and our families. I personally don’t believe the first amendment means freedom to practice a religion that promotes murder and sedition just like it doesn’t support certain illegal speech or child brides. Our steady push leftward to a country devoid of morality is causing many to think our enemies have a Constitutional right to come here to practice their religion which preaches our death. Sorry, I disagree.
Allahu Akbar, suckers!
Rev.Hoagie® (630eca) — 6/4/2017 @ 5:34 amReality does intrude past the cave:
http://www.americanthinker.com/articles/2017/06/drawing_back_the_curtain_on_the_worlds_political_classes.html
narciso (d1f714) — 6/4/2017 @ 5:38 amThe New York Times headline (in an early edition of the printed paper at least) calls it 2 attacks. That’s probably the way it originally came across on the wires.
All the eyewitness accounts seem to be fragmentary snapshots. They are either from the very beginning – when the van was running people over – or later after the police got there.
The police were shooting but I wonder if they were shooting blanks because people heard a lot of shots and there are no reports of innocent people being injured by police. Police were shouting at people to get away. Probably nobody stayed around on the street where the slashing went on so there are no eyewitness accounts in the news reports about that. But some did stay in the buildings.
The terrorists were chased off the street but they ran into businesses and continued their rampage.
One of them had a approximately 10-inch long knife. At least two different people were slashed across the throat and ran into some open businesses, bleeding. Nobody seems to know what eventually happened to anybody who was slashed because everybody scattered. (one person seems to have caused at least two of the men to stop what they were doing * and chase after him. But he was too far away from them to catch, and he escaped injury because they only had knives. No guns or other weapons that acted at a distance.)
All 3 were shot dead in the street with only the police, and one person who took a picture, present. They were (back) out on the street at the time running from police.
Some of the people running away were drunk, because some of the businesses were pubs, and otehrs were restaurants.
——————–
Sammy Finkelman (d1a369) — 6/4/2017 @ 6:07 am* by throwing things at them, and hitting at least one on he back of the head. He may have led them back into the street, where they encountered police after a short time.
narciso, the Norma Desmond reference to Hillary at that link is really devastating if you think about it.
Britain has got itself into this fix in part because fo the Empire., Many residents of its vanished Empire had Empire passports that were of questionable validity. The British agreed to let a lot of Pakistanis in 25 years ago, partly as a Labour ploy to get a new voting population.
We have a similar relationship with Filipinos and many come here to work. Thank God they are not Muslim and they do work. I have not seen figures on the percentage of British Muslims who are on the Dole but it is high. The European Muslims, aside for the Turks in Germany, do very little work and are mostly on welfare.
The Muslim “refugees” who want to get to Britain are now attacking truckers in Calais to try to invade Britain. Why ?
They want the welfare.
We were in France in 2015 and saw the refugee “camps” near Calais. We were going to Belgium to visit Waterloo and the battlefield with friends from England. We had taken the surface ferry to Dunkirk because of riots in Calais and attempts by “migrants” to break into the trains that run in the Chunnel.
2015 was the 200th anniversary of the battle and one of our friends had an ancestor at the battle. We were careful to avoid the migrant camps. We spent a couple fo days in Brussels and it looked like a Muslim city in many areas. Not long after we left, they had the big terrorist attack and it was right where we had been staying.
Europe is probably lost and we need to keep the Muslims out of this country. Major Hassan shows us that secodn generation and good education are not enough to bring assimilation.
Mike K (f469ea) — 6/4/2017 @ 6:09 amIt also fits for Pelosi nee alezsandri. So the Christian imperative is among other places Romans 12:13
narciso (d1f714) — 6/4/2017 @ 6:14 amSteve,
the only way a follower of Islam can reform is to turn his back on it and accept Christianity. We know that apostasy is punished with death, so what are the odds of it happening?
NJRob (7f4bec) — 6/4/2017 @ 6:15 amHas the media determined what motivated teh merrymakers yet?
Colonel Haiku (2601c0) — 6/4/2017 @ 6:26 am51. DCSCA (797bc0) — 6/3/2017 @ 7:39 pm
This is not rage at all, and you should not believe this. It involves far too much planning to be any kind of rage. It’s ideology. It’s an ideology based on lies, lies which at the top level cannot possibly be believed but can only be believed by foot soldiers. Some of this ideology is based on the idea it is revenge for America or Britain killing Moslems. Well, that’s not happening. None of this is based on fact. But it is not just religion. Some of the ideology is constructed on top of a religion, and you can find some seeds for this, but it is not the religion as it exists in thw world (which is why you will find that nearly every jihadist is either a “born again” Muslim or a convert and why this doesn’t happen till he second generation) , and most of the ideologues hold religious positions, but it’s also includes just plain political lies about who is evil. They need both kinds of lies.
And there are lies about what is causing this, too, spread by Russia and others.
56. kishnevi (6a5d3c) — 6/3/2017 @ 8:14 pm
Not colonialism, really. The welfare state.
It can give otherwise poor people all the vices of the idle rich, and the means to act on them. People are disconnected from ordinary life, but not from money and the ability to spend months planning crazy criminal things. A small fraction get into this.
76. Rev.Hoagie® (630eca) — 6/4/2017 @ 5:34 am
Under the “No True Scotsman” theory, because if a Moslem tries to stop this he’s no longer a Moslem??
There are actually some Islamic governments that aid in stopping this, and even turn over some selected terrorists to be jailed by foreign countries, although not, as far as I know, to Israel.
There are also some Islamic governments that are not wholehearted in opposing this. The motive for not helping is probably not religious in any real sense of the word. And neither is the motivation for arranging these crimes religious in the first place religious in any sense of the word and you should not believe this. That’s only for the foot soldiers.
There are also sponsers, or governments that either can’t or won’t act against sponsers.
Sammy Finkelman (d1a369) — 6/4/2017 @ 6:44 amWe know that apostasy is punished with death, so what are the odds of it happening?
If the Iranians manage to throw off the theocracy running that country, they will probably abandon Islam. Mosque attendance is at 2% among the general population. Just as most Russians were not fervent communists, Iranians, outside the IRG which is the equivalent of the KGB, are ignoring Islam.
The biggest threat to Iran is the birth rate which has crashed in one generation. Khruschev said refugees are “voting with their feet.” Iranian women are voting with their uterus.
Mike K (f469ea) — 6/4/2017 @ 7:39 amGood post, Steve57. Our leaders are studiously avoiding the historical context of these attacks, and people need to understand this is an eternal war.
Patricia (5fc097) — 6/4/2017 @ 7:43 amSammy, every single word you just wrote above about Islamist terrorists not being based in religion is so wrong it’s ridiculous. Not only that but plain dangerous. If you refuse to grasp the facts which Steve57 has laid out here about Islam then you are being willfully ignorant and I can only attribute it to a very successful life-long propaganda campaign by your family, teachers and others.
I have studied the Koran for years and everything Steve57 writes you can take to the bank. I’m no speaker and certainly I’m no writer but I were I would tell you precisely what Steve57 has. Your failure to understand that THEY don’t believe or think the way you or we do is perplexing.
Moslems are incapable of assimilation to Western culture, ideology, society, thought or law because they do not believe in it nor do they want it! They want to come here, live on our dime and someday take our land. Period.
You remind me of when I was going to Vietnam and that great black American Cassius Clay (noted on Wiki as “an American boxer and activist”) was telling any idiot that would listen he was exempt from service because he had converted to Islam and they are a religion of peace. So it was okay to climb into a ring and beat the $hit out of somebody ( for ten million )but not serve one’s country and all you guilty white fools bought his line of bull$hit. And you are still buying all the crap the moslem propagandists throw at you.
Allahu Akbar, clowns!
Rev.Hoagie® (630eca) — 6/4/2017 @ 7:54 amSteve, did you ever read the Bible? I mean, what you all the Old Testament and the New Testament? I don’t think you have, because if you did, you would know that every single statement you quoted of the Quran has a parallel in the Bible. And a whole bunch of Christians went around for centuries acting out the idea that God gave them permission to use violence against non Christians and in general rule the world. Until, starting slowly in the 18th century, but not really widespread until about 100 years ago, those ideas were rejected by Christianity. Most of it. There’s still pockets of Christians who believe that. But most Christians have woken up to the fact that just because God seems to approve of violence against non believers doesn’t mean God actually approves it.
The parallel is apropos: there are plenty of Moslems who understand that just because the Koran has verses approving of violence does not mean that they are obligated to commit violence or otherwise take over the world. Hoagie does not believe such Moslems exist, but Hoagie is thereby just demonstrating that he’s a smug, arrogant, invincibly ignorant man. Be better than that.
kishnevi (d764f4) — 6/4/2017 @ 8:01 am86. Rev.Hoagie® (630eca) — 6/4/2017 @ 7:54 am
The ideology is based on religion, but the religion is not regular Islam, even if some people with legitimate stats are part of it, and none of the people teaching this version of a religion believe it, and that’s not what’s causing it.
This is not the only possible ideological basis for terrorism, even among people of Islamic background, but it’s the one the terrorist sponsers have settled on since about the mid-1980s.
We had approximately 20 years of terrorism without any of this. Arafat did not base his ideology on Islam. And Pakistan used Sikhs in the mid-1980s. It was Sikhs, not Moslems, who assassinated Indira Indira Gandhi; it was Sikhs not Muslims who placed bombs aboard two Air India jets in 1985. And now all this is gone. Terrorism really has nothing to do with Islam per se. Islam has the idea of conquest in iits dna, and the idea of violence in war, but not this, and if it had, it would not have survived almost 1400 years because everybody else would have had to destroy it.
Steve57 is quoting things out of context. Isn’t the context war, isn’t the context orders by a commander? where is the plan for victory? let us see the neighhboring verses.
And where do you see anything about killing people at random without warning in a time and place of peace, and attacking also unarmed women? Are there any verses, or hadiths even, for that?
Sammy Finkelman (32408d) — 6/4/2017 @ 8:21 am84. Mike K (f469ea) — 6/4/2017 @ 7:39 am
That was also true in the Soviet Union under Communism. Only, such reductions in the birth rate tend to persist.
Sammy Finkelman (32408d) — 6/4/2017 @ 8:23 amkishnevi’s comment that the Bible = the Koran and Christians = Moslems is one of the most stupid, vile, and dishonest statements to EVER appear ANYWHERE in cyberspace. It has absolutely NO BASIS in historical (ancient or modern) reality. None. Zero. Zilch.
Deuce Frehley (7654f5) — 6/4/2017 @ 8:30 amHoagie does not believe such Moslems exist, but Hoagie is thereby just demonstrating that he’s a smug, arrogant, invincibly ignorant man. Be better than that.
No they exist but are a minority and are cowed by the more radical Muslims around them.
Two thirds of British Muslims would NOT report a terrorist plot they learned of.
TWO THIRDS.
Mike K (f469ea) — 6/4/2017 @ 8:36 amI have a few co-workers and friends who migrated to the U.S.from India. All are leery of “Islam”, but one fellow, in particular, has no illusions… He says non-Moslem Indians have been under siege for nearly a 1,000 years, an ongoing encroachment and religious invasion that knows nothing of tolerance. I remember him telling me over ten years ago that Americans would be wise to disabuse themselves of any notion of a peaceful co-existence.
Colonel Haiku (2601c0) — 6/4/2017 @ 8:40 amWell, someone else displaying their ignorance. I was making an imprecise analogy. The Bible is to Christians what the Koran is for Muslims: the revealed Scripture.
The analogy is imprecise. The more accurate analogy is that Christ is for Christians what the Torah is for Jews and the Koran is for Muslims: God’s full and final revelation of Itself to humanity.
kishnevi (d764f4) — 6/4/2017 @ 8:40 amHarry S. Truman – we need your bat and balls.
mg (31009b) — 6/4/2017 @ 8:48 amMichael Savage is still banned in Britain.
Pinandpuller (fc6a21) — 6/4/2017 @ 9:02 amAin’t no thang but a chicken wang. The moralizing politicians who make pronouncements about Islam being a religion of peace after every terrorist attack are nearly as stomach turning as the terrorist attacks themselves.
Tony Blair claimed to have read the Quran three times and all he ever saw in it was peace and tolerance. What was he, blind? Or, more likely, a lying politician. There is literally not a single page that doesn’t spew hate and/or command Muslims to commit violence. The closest thing in the Quran to the Golden Rule is when Allah admonishes Muslims to merciful among themselves, ruthless toward the disbelievers. Whenever I get accused by someone of cherry picking only the violent/hateful verses out of all the peaceful, tolerant verses that they’ve been told comprise most of the command, I enjoy handing them my Quran and letting them “cut the deck;” just flip to any random page. Then I read the verse in which Allah is spewing hate and/or commanding Muslims to commit violence. I’ve never had anyone find a page where Allah isn’t doing that.
Theresa May isn’t any better. She insists that there is nothing written in the Quran that supports terror attacks. I guess she like these other idiots think normal people can’t read, or that they can do Jedi mind tricks. Because anyone who can read at an eighth grade level knows there’s a ton of stuff in the Quran that supports terror attacks. H3ll, there’s a ton of stuff that mandates terror attacks.
Trump was better, but unfortunately he’s fallen under the sway of people like McMaster who were trained under Obama to believe there is no link between Islam and terrorism. I bet he couldn’t tell me why this guy in Manchester and the mass murderers in Paris targeted the Ariana Grande concert and the Bataclan nightclub. How the H3ll is he suppose to do his job if he doesn’t even know why they pick the targets that they do?
By the same token DCSCA’s casual comment that this is just a temporary period and the Muslims will assimilate over time is mind-bogglingly brain dead and falls in the category of Brair’s and May’s comments. Sure, it seems to make sense. As long as you don’t know a damned thing about anything.
There is nothing in the Quran that tells Muslims that they’re supposed to live in peace with non-Muslims. Quite the opposite; non-Muslims are filthy creatures and any Muslim who becomes actual friends with non-Muslims has apostatized.
Surah 98:6
We aren’t just the worst humans, we are lower than pigs and dogs, the most unclean animals according to Islam.
3:28
A Muslim who befriends disbelievers has become one of them and is no longer a Muslim because he has turned his back on Allah. This is why what DCSCA so casually assumes will occur has never occurred in the entire history of Islam. They do not assimilate.
Worse, you can live next to Muslims for years, for decades, even for centuries, and when the time comes it will be your Muslim neighbors who turn on you first. That’s what happened when the Ottoman Caliph ordered the Armenian genocide, its what happened in the 1970s in Lebanon after the Lebanese took in the Palestinian refugees after they were kicked out of Jordan, and it’s what happened and still happens when the Islamic State takes over a mixed Muslim/Christian/Yazidi town. No Yazidis were involved in the first two incidents. The Christians, especially in the Ottoman empire as the families had been living next to each other for generations, although I’m sure the Christians and Yazidis found it just as horrifying in Syria and Iraq, were shocked out of their minds to find it was their Muslim neighbors carrying out the genocide. People who they thought were their friends. Whose children had played together, who had eaten dinner together and thrown parties at each others houses. In the case of Lebanon and Syria/Iraq the neighbors didn’t actually carry out the killing. The PLO and IS did that, but it was the neighbors who showed them where to find their victims.
It made their job a lot easier.
But of course, this time it’s going to be different. Right.
Steve57 (0b1dac) — 6/4/2017 @ 9:04 am@39 DCSCA
A bit of a dog’s breakfast, eh?
Pinandpuller (fc6a21) — 6/4/2017 @ 9:07 am@39 DCSCA
Jack the Ripper and Spring Heeled Jack worked themselves out eventually.
Thousands of individuals married to to a conquest ideology…Maybe not.
Pinandpuller (fc6a21) — 6/4/2017 @ 9:10 amkishnevi (d764f4) — 6/4/2017 @ 8:01 am, please quote the “parallel verses” and I’ll tell why you are laughably wrong.
Steve57 (0b1dac) — 6/4/2017 @ 9:10 amPeace be unto you who proclaims the Holy Koran, Steve57. Ramadan Mubarak!
nk (dbc370) — 6/4/2017 @ 9:17 am78. SF: The police were shooting but I wonder if they were shooting blanks because people heard a lot of shots and there are no reports of innocent people being injured by police.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/06/04/london-attack-six-dead-van-rampage-stabbings-terrorists-killed/
There is now, but it is a very low number (1) and that was only at the end (and firing was heard before that):
They must have learned this idea – that it is important to kill the person wearing the suicide belt before he can trigger it – from the Israelis.
Of course this applies to somebody actually seen to be wearing a suicide belt, not just on spec that he might have one.
By the way, I don’t think someone actually wearing a real suicide bomb would go on a stabbing rampage before triggering it, because the bomb could kill a lot more people tnan his knife, and he could be shot before he gets a chance to trigger the bomb even without any special attentioon being paid to the suicide belt or vest.
Of course, maybe somebody might particularly want to get a few cops, but even for cops there’s probably a much better way if he has a suicide vest.
Sammy Finkelman (32408d) — 6/4/2017 @ 9:22 amHere’s the first one that pops into my head
Daughter Babylon, doomed to destruction,
happy is the one who repays you
according to what you have done to us.
9
Happy is the one who seizes your infants
and dashes them against the rocks.
And speaking of terror, Psalms 2:5
He rebukes them in his anger and terrifies them in his wrath, saying,
That’s the NIV. Not every translation uses the word terror.
the KJV does it this way
Then shall he speak unto them in his wrath, and vex them in his sore displeasure.
You don’t seem to understand that most Moslems are fine with ignoring all those passages you talk about. Just like most Christians don’t fell themselves obliged to go sell all they have and give the proceeds to the poor….
kishnevi (d764f4) — 6/4/2017 @ 9:26 amFifty shots for three terrorists who have already killed six people is “unprecedented” only in places where they teach their police how to shoot. In New York and a Los Angeles, it takes NYPD and LAPD cops an average of 127 shots merely to wound a single innocent bystander a block away.
nk (dbc370) — 6/4/2017 @ 9:30 amThe death toll is now up to 7 (not counting the terrorists)
I am not sure that the UK government has any idea of the identity of the attackers, but am also not sure if there really is any reason to think that they don’t.
After the Manchester attack, the UK government was very disturbed that the name of the attacker, Salman Abedi, was leaked, which leak they attributed to U.S. sources it seems and Prime Minister Theresa May got the u.s. to ptomise to take more care.
The news media is almost talking like even the government had no idea. That doesn’t follow. They’re just not daying anything, and not telling anyone whose job it would be to talk to the press.
They could probably identify them with their fingerprints, which are often on file, or even familial DNA, or through the van, or through pictures – London is full of cameras, and the route of that van can be traced. This is obvious and we’re not hearing anything about the efforts to find out who they are, or anything Scotland Yard and others are doing so the investigation is being kept under tight wraps.
My own opinion is that the fake suicide vests were not to scare people away but to ensure the attackers would be shot, and not reveal even their names. And this must also indicate some knowledge of police anti-terror protocols.
The fake suicide vests is proof almost by itself that these people did not act on their own at all, but the whole thing was organized from far away. It’s wasn’t inspired, it wasn’t encouraged, it was directed and someone doesn’t want anyone to trace the connections. And the whole thing about putting a general request on Telegram that attacks by cars be made during Ramadan is a false clue. It’s an after the fact thing, designed to make it believable that this wasn’t organized, top to bottom, from abroad.
The scene of the attack is still under lockdown, probably because they are looking for any kind of clue they can find. They would probably also want to reconstruct the attack. At the start some unarmed police or mock “community police” were attacked.
Sammy Finkelman (32408d) — 6/4/2017 @ 9:31 am103. Most police in England do have guns. There were some of the vicinity probably because of its location. The police who shot are specially trained.
http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/london-bridge-attack/why-london-won-t-arm-all-police-despite-severe-terror-n737551
They must have really needed these fake suicide vests to ensure getting killed.
Sammy Finkelman (32408d) — 6/4/2017 @ 9:34 am* Most police in England do NOT have gune.
They’re famous for that, and it’s still true.
Sammy Finkelman (32408d) — 6/4/2017 @ 9:36 amAh that is Yahweh’ s job try again.
narciso (96a169) — 6/4/2017 @ 9:39 amHow weird is it that the elites who are saying we must ACT NOW, WE CANNOT WAIT! regarding a theoretical 1 deg C rise in temperatures by around 2100 (when 97% of their previous projections have been way too high) out of the other sides of their mouths declare that religious zealots murdering men, women and children with bombs, guns, cars, knives etc. are just things we must get used to?
How many people in the U.K. died of climate change this year?
harkin (610d75) — 6/4/2017 @ 9:41 amWhere is the imperative to kill the unbeliever
narciso (96a169) — 6/4/2017 @ 9:43 am21 people are listed in critical condition and the total of injured (who were taken to hospitals?) is 48.
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/live/2017/jun/03/london-bridge-closed-after-serious-police-incident-live
I don’t think they were given any training as to how to use the knife, beyond maybe a pointer or two. But that would have been difficult to do, and possibly the terrroist masters didn’t even think of this idea. Saying it is for his family is probably a BIG LIE.
Sammy Finkelman (32408d) — 6/4/2017 @ 9:46 amBe smart and take him at his word, Sammeh. He probably realized he wouldn’t survive his cowardly attack.
Colonel Haiku (2601c0) — 6/4/2017 @ 9:58 am103… one of the consequences of the lowering of standards pushed by the lawyer community.
Colonel Haiku (2601c0) — 6/4/2017 @ 10:00 amThe man shot by police was shot in the head, but is expected to make a full recovery. He was one of 12 people taken to the Royal London with serious injuries.
Amber Rudd, the home secretary, in an interview on ITV this morning the police were confident the attackers were “radical Islamist terrorists” bt refused to say if the attackers were known to the authorities.
She said Theresa May’s reference to “taking military action to destroy Isis in Iraq and Syria” didn’t mean that she wants more military action than currently planned.
She said they were right to let the terror threat go back down to severe (where it was for 3 years) from critical because the police in Manchester were sure that there was no additional material or explosives out there. And they don’t believe there is additional elements which could be carrying on the attack last night, so JTAC has recemmended saying at severe.
Theresa May wants the Internet companies to do more to stop their platforms from being used for radicalizaralization and limit the amount of end-to-end encryption.
Google put out a statement saying it is committed to working with the government to ensure terrorists “do not have a voice online” and something called the Open Rights Group put out a statement against refulation of the Internet and limiting encryption. It said companes like Facebook are not a cause of this hatred and violence, but tools that can be abused. (as a matter of fact, I think they can also be used as red herrings)
Sammy Finkelman (32408d) — 6/4/2017 @ 10:06 amOn another board I merely quoted the Koran- for that I have been banned for three days.
“You have been banned for the following reason: Islamophobic”.
harkin (610d75) — 6/4/2017 @ 10:09 amThis was Muhammad’s idea of war, Sammeh.
Sunan Abi Dawud – Prescribed Punishments (Kitab Al-Hudud) – (2) Chapter: The ruling regarding one who reviles the prophet (pbuh)
As far as Muhammad was concerned assassination and murder also meets the definition of jihad. It’s the kind of jihad Muhammad and his followers engaged in before they had acquired sufficient military might to wage jihad openly. And nobody needs orders. This guy didn’t need orders to slit his pregnant wife’s belly open. Muhammad approved of it after the fact. So the guys who shot up the editorial offices of Charlie Hebdo or who have tried to kill Lars Vilks didn’t need orders. They have standing orders from Allah and Muhammad.
As an aside, you won’t find the justification for honor killings all in one place. It’s spread out through various sources. For instance, according to Sunni law manuals there is no blood retribution, i.e. no penalty, if a parent kills their child. Or grandparents kill their grandchildren. The above hadith (it’s one grade lower than Sahih but Hasan is still good enough to be used in Islamic jurisprudence) is another piece of the puzzle. The rest can be found in various verses of the Quran. But it also says to carry out the legal punishment on strangers as well, and there’s a legal punishment for just about everything. Such as:
Surah 5:33
This is why jihadis in the West justify their actions by citing US or British foreign policy and how we are killing Muslims in Muslim lands. That’s pretty much the definition of waging war against Allah and his Messenger. The punishment can be carried out by anyone, anywhere.
And it isn’t limited to attacking Soldiers. The people who support the soldiers, taxpayers and their families, are just as valid targets.
And what’s the plan for victory? Are you blind, Sammeh? Have you noticed how Germany, Italy, France, Britain, et al have to spend billions on internal security. Internal counter-terror intelligence services have to to track tens of thousands of known terror threats that they’re overwhelmed. It’s why so many known wolves that they slip through gaps so gaping wide they’re more properly called chasms. Police cant surveil them all (and the plan is to allow in tens of thousands of more potential threats; brilliant). Over Christmas the French deployed 120,000 military troops. All this costs money and they’re going to have to spend more.
In Britain following the Manchester bombing the government deployed 10,000 troops to London (judging by what happened last night that’s just security theater). They’ve had to cancel the changing of the guard, a popular tourist attraction. Of course tourism is way down all across Europe just because of the news, particularly among Chinese and Japanese tourists who tend to be the biggest spenders. But even the locals are scared to go out.
When you look at the cost of increased security, lost tourist and local entertainment expenditures, and just the cost of caring for the millions of “migrants” you’re looking at untold billions of dollars. Perhaps continent wide approaching a trillion. Plus if all those military forces are bogged down in their home countries they can’t deploy to fight IS or any other FTO. What the h3ll do you mean there’s no plan for victory? It looks like there’s a plan to me. But then I can do math.
And if you want the surrounding verse get off your lazy butt and buy your own damned Quran, Sammeh.
Steve57 (0b1dac) — 6/4/2017 @ 10:15 amYes I thought trump speaking in Riyadh soft pedaled the responsibility, but he was in ali baba’s cave after all, ymmv.
narciso (96a169) — 6/4/2017 @ 10:16 amThe 8 minute timeline going from 5:08 to 5:16 is from the first call to police came in (at 5:08 pm London time) till the three terrorists were shot to death. The actual length of time of teh whole attack was probably a minute or two longer.
The Guardian reports that a 22-year-old Malaysian student named Elizabeth told its reporter, Caroline Bannock, that she was in a restaurant when a waiter came over and said London Bridge was closed as there had been an attack. It sounded to her and her friend that it was over. They decided to leave the restaurant and found the doors locked, and realized they were trying to stop people from getting in. But they weren’t stopped from getting out.
Outside they found 100 people or so milling around and trying to call cabs.
(Uber by the way took some time to get rid of the surge pricing. They can’t always win. In January, when Donald Trump imposed his first travel ban and cab drivers organized a boycott of JFK Arport, Uber was accused of trying to break the strike by eliminating surge pricing.)
Then the two women found out it wasn’t necessarily over, or people didn’t know it was over. People started running behind them shouting: ‘They’re stabbing, they’re stabbing.’ However, they never saw any stabbing. They kept running for several minutes.
two people offered tghem shelter in their apartment (flat) where they spent most of the night.
It took them till 5 am to get a cab. They left the restaurant just after 10 pm. Maybe Uber should have kept the surge pricing.
Sammy Finkelman (32408d) — 6/4/2017 @ 10:23 amSteve57:
But he said she had done something wrong (according to them)
That’s not what happened in London. There’s no accusation of anything against the victims. Not even listening to music (something opposed by ISIS.)
Note by the way, that he didn’t face the death penalty in any case – only a fine, payable to her family.
That is standard Islam, practiced in Saudi Arabia, although the family has to agree to take the money rather than insist on the death penalty. In some cases the family is pressured by the Saudi government to agree, like if the murderer was a member of the royal family and in some other cases maybe the government insists on executing someone, like if a member of the royal family was killed, and that’s what happened to the member of teh royal family who killed King Feisal in 1975.
This is maybe the worst thing about Islam, and directly leads to honor killings, where the murderer is the same person as the one entitled to receive the blood money, but it is not the same thing as terrorism. This aspect of Islam has been used by the United States government in Afghanistan and Iraq to settle complaints about killing people.
Sammy Finkelman (32408d) — 6/4/2017 @ 10:36 amThe first act of a leftist when confronted by facts he doesn’t like is to call the person telling those facts names and attack his motives and character. You are a true Alinskyite. Alinsky’s rule 4 is make people live up to there own rules. You apply the Bible as a weapon toward Christians. His rule 5 “ridicule” is your most potent weapon. Finally your favorite: pick the target, freeze it, personalize it and polarize it. You have learned well.
The “smug” person here is the one who derides others who have spent years reading and studying that which you don’t understand. The “smug” one decides who “is better than that”. The smug one is an elitist. And since you’ve chosen the side of Islam You are really no better than the terrorists you protect.
Rev.Hoagie® (630eca) — 6/4/2017 @ 11:13 amIs this the command to Christians that you believe tells Christians to subdue, conquer, convert or kill people?
Very threatening indeed. That’s why the major problem is that damn Bible and how these Christians carry out terror in the world. Idiot.
Rev.Hoagie® (630eca) — 6/4/2017 @ 11:23 amI know that kish is not an alinskyite however the need to relativize for civility’s sake is a powerful one.
narciso (d1f714) — 6/4/2017 @ 11:30 amAs of late yesterday, 149 dead in this year’s Ramadan terror acts by the faithful.
http://dailycaller.com/2017/06/03/149-dead-so-far-in-ramadan-attacks/
No word yet on how many have been killed lately by Old and New Testament zealots since May 26.
harkin (610d75) — 6/4/2017 @ 11:40 ammost Moslems are fine with ignoring all those passages you talk about.
This is not true. Most Muslims are not doing jihad but two thirds are not willing to report plots. What does that tell you ?
Also, there is the “sudden jihad” syndrome that pops up among those who seem unradicalized.
There was a Muslim limousine driver with a family in Irvine who one day decided to drive to LAX and attack Jews at El Al’s counter.
Then there was the Egyptair 990 pilot who decided to take down 217 people with his suicide.
While the cruise crew was intended to take over far into the flight, the relief first officer entered the cockpit and recommended that he relieve the command first officer 20 minutes after takeoff. The command first officer initially protested, but eventually agreed.
followed thirty seconds later by the first officer saying in Egyptian Arabic “Tawkalt ala Allah,” which translates to “I rely on God.” A minute later, the autopilot was disengaged, immediately followed by the first officer again saying, “I rely on God.” Three seconds later, the throttles for both engines were reduced to idle, and both elevators were moved three degrees nose down. The first officer repeated “I rely on God” seven more times before the captain suddenly asked repeatedly, “What’s happening, what’s happening?”
The National Transportation Safety Board determines that the probable cause of the EgyptAir flight 990 accident is the airplane’s departure from normal cruise flight and subsequent impact with the Atlantic Ocean as a result of the relief first officer’s flight control inputs. The reason for the relief first officer’s actions was not determined.
Sudden Jihad Syndrome.
Mike K (f469ea) — 6/4/2017 @ 11:48 amkishnevi (d764f4) — 6/4/2017 @ 9:26 am, thank you for providing me with those self-refuting citations.
Nobody is ignoring this Kishnevi. I’d be really concerned about Israeli/Jewish terrorists being inspired by that snippet. If I were a Babylonian. But we haven’t had any of those around for a few thousand years.
By the way, this other verse is also from Psalm 137.
And again is specific to Babylon. Which doesn’t exist anymore. And in any case it’s a prayer that Yahweh will take revenge on the Babylonians. Got it? Yahweh. Not the Israelites themselves.
And the whole of Psalm 2 simply means you can serve the Lord and thrive and defy the Lord and be destroyed. It’s not a command to commit violence. In fact all the Psalms are poetry. I learned early on that you can’t read the Bible literally. You have to read it literarally. There are many different kinds of of literature in the Bible. There are direct commands in the Bible. But I’ve never met anyone, Christian or Jew, who understood the Psalms to contain direct commands.
I’m going to skip over the fact that Christians don’t ignore the Psalms or any of the troublesome parts of the Old Testament. We strive to understand them since the Jesus of the New Testament is also the the God of the Old Testament (The Word Became Flesh 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning. 3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4 In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind. 5 The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it.). It’s you who doesn’t understand. Islam has an entirely different relationship with the Quran than the one Christianity has with the Bible. The Quran is the eternal, uncreated, immutable, perfect word of Allah. Existing in paradise along with Allah for all eternity. Creating all sorts of theological problems, by the way, for the Islamic doctrine of tawhid, the claim to strict monotheism, since now we have two eternal entities. But I digress.
The Quran in physical form is a perfect copy of Allah’s eternal word. Muslims can’t ignore a single word. They can’t simply take on board what they like and ignore what they don’t like. In fact, when interviewing convicted jihadis researchers find that words such as like and don’t like don’t even come into it. It isn’t part of their vocabulary. They are simply doing what Allah commands. Why? It says in the Quran that the only relation that a human can have with Allah is that of a slave to slave master. They are trying to be the best slaves that they can be. Allah makes it clear that while there is a whole laundry list of people Allah does not love, Allah does love his obedient slaves.
What kind of slave listens to only those commands that he or she likes, and ignores Allah the slave master’s commands that they don’t like? A rebellious slave. Where do you think Allah is going to send rebellious slaves? But that’s down the road. In this life assigning portions of Allah’s eternal word to the category of important and others to the category of unimportant and can be ignored is considered apostasy.
As far as the supposed command to sell off all you own and follow Him, that isn’t a command. Jesus had been accosted by a wealthy young man and had already told him what commands he must keep two verses earlier than the “command” you incorrectly cite. Jesus had wealthy friends and followers such as Zacchaeus the publican and Joseph of Arimathea, a wealthy member of the Sanhedrin who buried Jesus in his own freshly dug tomb. He often ate with them and stayed at their homes. He never told them to sell everything and to follow him.
What was different in the case you cite was that the wealthy young man was essentially and self-righteously bragging about how perfectly he had led his life. He wanted salvation on his own, easy, comfortable terms. So Jesus said, “If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.”
Rather than being a command, it was a rebuke. Jesus sent him away humbled and conscious of his failure, his imperfection. Which is what he needed to know for his own good. All fall short of the glory of God; nobody gets into heaven by their good deeds. Jesus entered creation and became flesh to offer salvation to flawed, imperfect human beings. Because God is not our slave master but our Father in Heaven. That’s why He died on the cross for us.
Steve57 (0b1dac) — 6/4/2017 @ 11:50 amYes there is such an accusation of wrongdoing and I explained in detail what it is. I’m not going to do it again.
Steve57 (0b1dac) — 6/4/2017 @ 11:55 amI guess you were considering these verses
http://matthiasmedia.com/briefing/2013/08/the-amalekite-genocide/
narciso (d1f714) — 6/4/2017 @ 12:04 pmBy the way, kishnevi, when it comes to the Quran I don’t offer my own understanding but I rely on Muhammad’s understanding. I also rely on the Tafsir of ibn Kathir.
It’s available in abridged form at:
http://qtafsir.com/
Tafsir is the Arabic word that corresponds with the English word exegesis. That’s a critical analysis and explanation of scripture. If someone wants to transliterate the Quran from Arabic to some other language and submit it to Al Azhar University for evaluation, one of the texts that individual must consult is the Tafsir of ibn Kathir. That’s how authoritative the Islamic authoritative consider ibn Kathir even though he was a medieval scholar. Despite being dead for about a millenium his work hasn’t been surpassed.
So, again, I don’t form my own unsupported opinion of the meaning of a particular Quran verse or passage. I’m offering what the Sunni religious authorities consider an orthodox interpretation of the text.
Steve57 (0b1dac) — 6/4/2017 @ 12:13 pmA non-Muslim, that would be Steve57, regales us with a book’s worth of lectures on Islam, with Amens from another couple of non-Muslims, those would be Mike K. and Hoagie. Then he chides a non-Christian, that would be kishnevi, for discussing Christianity. It would be funny, if it were a little bit less vicious.
nk (dbc370) — 6/4/2017 @ 12:14 pmSteve57 @125. Could you give the comment number where you gove the alleged “crimes” of the London terror victims?
Sammy Finkelman (32408d) — 6/4/2017 @ 12:17 pmIn 115?
Sammy Finkelman (32408d) — 6/4/2017 @ 12:22 pmThe mosques, the mosques, yelled the taxpayer.
mg (31009b) — 6/4/2017 @ 12:27 pmslash the tax payers throat, yelled mohamhead.
as the millions of moo slims applaud or do nothing.
Garbage the lot of them.
So who is an authority, hirsi ali?
narciso (d1f714) — 6/4/2017 @ 12:40 pm“Roger”, the convert to Islam who was in charge of the CIA’s drone fleet in Iraq and Afghanistan, and was just appointed Iran Chief of Station.
nk (dbc370) — 6/4/2017 @ 12:53 pmYes and the sepah has as much put a fatwa on the wolf.
narciso (d1f714) — 6/4/2017 @ 1:14 pm@72/96.=yawn= Venting hot gas out the aft end of your service module just blows you off course, Steverino. And BTW, “Islam” is exactly like ‘other religions.’ 1,400 years?! Your concern for long term matters is a warming endorsement of the Paris Accords and we thank you.
Classic rants and wailing by another raging, angry, right wing wacko are fun, eh Steverino. Read 39 & 59, burp your engine and answer the question posed: so what do you propose? Cruise missiles at 400 miles or machine pistols at close range in a mosque parking lot?
So far, just rants.
Perpetual war is a video game these days you can buy at any Walmart and play to your heart’s content from your armchair– and at your own expense.
“Where do they teach you talk like this? In some Panama City ‘Sailor wanna hump-hump’ bar, or is getaway day and your last shot at his whiskey? Sell crazy someplace else, we’re all stocked up here.” – Melvin Udall [Jack Nicholson] ‘As Good As It Gets’ 1997
____________________
@97/98. Bangers and mash.
It’s Sunday- a holy day and there are several commandments to break and a hole-in-one to make before sundown. As our family’s Muslim Harley Street doctor once told my dear Christian mother about her kidney stone, ‘this to shall pass.’ Heresy!!
DCSCA (797bc0) — 6/4/2017 @ 1:18 pm@128– It’s hilarious, nk.
DCSCA (797bc0) — 6/4/2017 @ 1:19 pmJust a dozen line wolves
http://www.bbc.com/news/live/uk-40147014
narciso (d1f714) — 6/4/2017 @ 1:23 pmI stand by my statement upthread.
Evan Carter (550dba) — 6/4/2017 @ 1:31 pmThe radical Muslims have time, and demographics, on their side. I wish it weren’t so, but it is.
Steve57 and Rev. Hoagie are making the case, and making it well.
@103. They use to steal airplanes; now they rent trucks. And lost their deposit, too. 8 minutes from call to corpses is excellent response time– and they’ll review and improve on that. For a nation where police famously don’t carry guns as a rule– well done. Attaboys all’round; the Brits did good.
___________
@106. That’s right, Sammy.
“It’s a fair cop.” – ‘Monty Python And The Holy Grail’ 1975
DCSCA (797bc0) — 6/4/2017 @ 1:40 pmcorvus oculum corvi non eruit
mg (31009b) — 6/4/2017 @ 1:55 pm@138- Nah, they’re breaking wind; whales wailing. History will mark this period of rage as an anomaly. Assimilation is inevitable. We’ll always have angry witches, brooding Nazis, mystics, magicians, Druids, confederate sympathizers, Cub fans and flat-earthers with us as we move out into the Cosmos.
DCSCA (797bc0) — 6/4/2017 @ 1:55 pmFirst of all nk, Steve57 isn’t regaling you with anything. If you don’t want to read it then don’t. Secondly one needn’t be a moslem to read, study and understand the philosophy any more than one needs to be Greek to understand Plato. It is what it is. Denying what it is will be the reason the next slew of innocent people will die. You folks have been so deeply ingrained with political correctness you are unable to decide what is in your own best interests. It’s pathetic that Western Civilization has degraded itself to the point where it would rather die than admit Islam is crap. Allah forbid we insult another “faith” even if it really isn’t a faith but rather a 1400 year old death cult which has murdered millions across the centuries and will continue to do so because THAT IS ITS GOAL! Muhammad is little more than Charles Manson on steroids then calling his followers a religion.
The moslem mayor of Londonistan berates Trump because glowball warming is a threat to civilization while he winks at his brothers who murder people on bridges and at concerts. Maybe if they start killing people in the neighborhood where upscale lawyers and bankers live you would show more compassion for the dead and mangled than the killers themselves. Allahu Akbar.
Rev.Hoagie® (630eca) — 6/4/2017 @ 2:09 pmAmens from another couple of non-Muslims, those would be Mike K. and Hoagie.
Did you happen to notice the links I included in my comments ?
I don’t know why you consider truth to be “vicious.”
I’m reading an interesting book on Islam. I recommend it to you unless you are Muslim.
It’s by Tom Holland and is called “In the Shadow of the Sword.
It is a history of Islam. A real history of Islam.
Mike K (f469ea) — 6/4/2017 @ 2:18 pm“There’s about 2.8 million Muslims in the UK, about 5% of the total population.”
Here’s how it works.
As long as the Muslim population remains around or under 2% in any given country, they will be for the most part be regarded as a peace-loving minority, and not as a threat to other citizens.
…
At 2% to 5%, they begin to proselytize from other ethnic minorities and disaffected groups, often with major recruiting from the jails and among street gangs.
…
From 5% on, they exercise an inordinate influence in proportion to their percentage of the population. For example, they will push for the introduction of halal (clean by Islamic standards) food, thereby securing food preparation jobs for Muslims. They will increase pressure on supermarket chains to feature halal on their shelves — along with threats for failure to comply.
…
At this point, they will work to get the ruling government to allow them to rule themselves (within their ghettos) under Sharia, the Islamic Law. The ultimate goal of Islamists is to establish Sharia law over the entire world.
When Muslims approach 10% of the population, they tend to increase lawlessness as a means of complaint about their conditions. In Paris , we are already seeing car-burnings. Any non-Muslim action offends Islam, and results in uprisings and threats, such as in Amsterdam , with opposition to Mohammed cartoons and films about Islam.
…
After reaching 20%, nations can expect hair-trigger rioting, jihad militia formations, sporadic killings, and the burnings of Christian churches and Jewish synagogues
…
At 40%, nations experience widespread massacres, chronic terror attacks, and ongoing militia warfare
…
From 60%, nations experience unfettered persecution of non-believers of all other religions (including non-conforming Muslims), sporadic ethnic cleansing (genocide), use of Sharia Law as a weapon, and Jizya, the tax placed on infidels
…
After 80%, expect daily intimidation and violent jihad, some State-run ethnic cleansing, and even some genocide, as these nations drive out the infidels, and move toward 100% Muslim
…
100% will usher in the peace of ‘Dar-es-Salaam’ — the Islamic House of Peace. Here there’s supposed to be peace, because everybody is a Muslim, the Madrases are the only schools, and the Koran is the only word
…
Unfortunately, peace is never achieved, as in these 100% states the most radical Muslims intimidate and spew hatred, and satisfy their blood lust by killing less radical Muslims
…
http://www.commonsenseevaluation.com/2013/06/03/muslim-behaviorterrorism-correlated-with-population-size/ (more text at the link including lists of countries that fit into each type–so you can see the analysis is correct)
Europe is rapidly moving towards 5-10%. The best solution is having walls and borders to not let them in in the first place. The second-best solution is ethnic cleansing (asking people NICELY BUT FIRMLY to go somewhere else, not putting them in ovens–it’s hardly a human rights violation to ask migrants who recently arrived in your country to keep moving until they find another place to stay). The third-best solution is integrating them, which requires some serious propaganda against Islamic extremism (including calling terrorists “sad losers” instead of hyping them up and making excuses for them like the BBC and other libtard media outlets do). The third solution requires free speech for those who slander the prophet of Islam (as Barry would say), which is exactly what European leaders don’t want. Silencing non-Muslims to protect Islamic fee-fees is a kind of Sharia. Muslims WILL NOT INTEGRATE under a system of Sharia law. They have to be pushed to integrate (not because literally every Muslim needs a push, but there are a large number of marginal cases who can be pushed).
Crusaders gave up everything to fight against Islamic imperialism and now their ancestors are importing Muslims as cheap labor. The West has largely given up on having any kind of coherent identity. If you don’t want a racial identity (which, historically, has been a very effective way of keeping a nation together), then you need a civic nationalist identity–but that is also lacking in Europe. It’s like Germany doesn’t even want to exist as a nation any more. The retirees just want to ride out their retirement in style and leave nothing to the next generation.
Daryl Herbert (7be116) — 6/4/2017 @ 2:25 pm“History will mark this period of rage as an anomaly. Assimilation is inevitable.”
No. It’s not. No ideology or religion is inevitable. Especially an ideology as stupid as “assimilation is inevitable so let’s let everyone in.”
If you set a ball rolling down a hill, it’s not “inevitable” that the ball will reach the bottom of the hill–someone might step in to interfere.
And if you try to roll a ball uphill, it’s definitely not “inevitable” that the ball will reach the top.
The Islamicization of Europe is rolling along and political elites act to stop any interference.
Assimilating people requires constant effort, and I don’t see people making that effort, and even if they were, there’s no guarantee that the efforts would continue.
Leftists even treat assimilation as a crime when it’s being done to their favorite minorities (see: cultural appropriation, etc.) They are openly hostile to civic nationalism so why should I believe that leftists want to assimilate Muslims into America as civic nationalists?
What is anomalous about this period is that we think we can ignore all of the lessons of history. It would not be the first time in history that people got that idea, and paid dearly for it.
Daryl Herbert (7be116) — 6/4/2017 @ 2:43 pmRev.Hoagie® (630eca) — 6/4/2017 @ 11:23 am
That verse was used to justify Christian imperialism for over a thousand years. A person who is not ignorant would know that.
You have a wife who loves you so there must be a good side to you. But you give no indication of that here.
kishnevi (1a529d) — 6/4/2017 @ 2:54 pmok so what happens when you take a population what’s naive enough to believe a lowlife like Queen Elizabeth is “royalty” and what by law is defenseless like lil baby kittens and you do a bunch of disaffected hyper-violent islams all up in it?
just a thought exercise
happyfeet (28a91b) — 6/4/2017 @ 3:00 pm@145. Assimilating people requires constant effort, and I don’t see people making that effort, and even if they were, there’s no guarantee that the efforts would continue.
You’re not looking hard. No. It takes time– often generations. And patience; a characteristic, for better or worse, Americans in particular are not renown for. The lesson from history is history. We’ll always have sun worshipers, Stalinists, shylocks, Bernie Madoffs, astrologers, hot dogs, prostitutes, latin and Lucy reruns with us as we move out into the Cosmos.
DCSCA (797bc0) — 6/4/2017 @ 3:04 pmthat wasn’t an actually imperative, the verses in numbers mentioned above might be considered some,
narciso (d1f714) — 6/4/2017 @ 3:04 pmBabylon was not destroyed by Israel, it destroyed itself,
I was slowin’ wheels, downshiftin’ gears
Up to a Yankee checkpoint
A GI stopped me with his gun
10 minutes before daybreak
He said you broke the curfew, in this ratted out old Toy’
I don’t recognize that dialect
Just where’d you come from, boy?
I said where I come from, it’s kabsa and chicken
Where I come from, a lot of front door kickin’
Where I come from, women wrapped in linen
And workin’ hard to visit Mecca, where I come from
I was in Wayne county proper
I turned in this halal hookah
To try their type of goat brisket
The sign said super duper
I payed my bill and the brother asked me how’d you like your skillet?
I’ll be honest with you man, it ain’t like papa killed it
Cause where I come from, its kebabs and chicken
Where I come from, a lot of front door kickin’
Where I come from, no Jews and Arabs mixin’
And workin’ hard to pillage Raqqa, where I come from
I was casing music venues
Somewhere in California
I had to run outside real fast
Because I couldn’t linger
A nice lady stopped and asked
Could I stay until the chorus
No thanks, ma’am, back home we like the girls with no cl*tor*s
Cause where I come from, it’s kabsa and chicken
Where I come from, a lot of backpacks tickin’
Where I come from, it’s first cousins weddin’
And workin’ hard to conquer Mosul, where I come from
I was headed home, United Air
Some where around Jakarta
My Facebook rang, it’s a friend request
He looks like old Siddhartha
I friended him and he asked me
Aren’t you a mild Islamist?
I said no, take comfort brother
I’m on a terror watchlist
Cause where I come from, it’s kebabs and chicken
Where I come from, a lot of front door kickin’
Where I come from, women wrapped in linen
And starin’ up at al-Aqurab, where I come from
Pinandpuller (16b0b5) — 6/4/2017 @ 3:16 pmwhen did this become a thing
i’m not comfortable with this
happyfeet (28a91b) — 6/4/2017 @ 3:18 pmi like your flow Mr. pin&
happyfeet (28a91b) — 6/4/2017 @ 3:20 pmDear Islamophobes
I’ve got 99 problems
And a mosque ain’t one
Your friends,
The uneducated
Pinandpuller (16b0b5) — 6/4/2017 @ 3:26 pmI’m reading an interesting book on Islam. I recommend it to you unless you are Muslim.
It’s by Tom Holland and is called “In the Shadow of the Sword.
It’s actually a very speculative book. He gets what he wants by ignoring or evading all data that contradicts his thesis (as opposed to explaining it in a way that agrees with it).
Also he committed at least two howlers regarding Judaism: he takes a legend about R. Simon bar Yohai, the reputed author of the Zohar, and applies a special power attributed to R. Simon in the legend (burning people up just by looking at them) to all the Rabbis of Eretz Yisrael, something not justified by the sources. A few pages later he refers to Ibn Ezra’s commentary on the Torah and how it drew attention to the fact that Moses could not have written the final verses of Deuteronomy. Holland seems to think this was controversial and new, even though Ibn Ezra was actually just drawing on a discussion in the Talmud that tried to figure out if Moses wrote about his own death and burial. (And he didn’t refer to Ibn Ezra by name, to compound the annoyance. Ibn Ezra, btw, was the medieval Spanish rabbi in Browning’s poem: Come grow old along with me, the best is yet to be, etc)
kishnevi (1a529d) — 6/4/2017 @ 3:30 pmTangential errors, but enough to make me wonder what mistakes might be present in the book when dealing with subjects I don’t know about.
@147. “Low life?!”
“We are not amused.” – Dead Queen Victoria of the United Kingdom
DCSCA (797bc0) — 6/4/2017 @ 3:31 pm151
kishnevi (1a529d) — 6/4/2017 @ 3:34 pmSimple English was invented well before the Internet.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basic_English
That’s the normal Wikipedia.
@153. ‘Don’ta vorry, be heppy.” – Vladimir Putin 6/2/17
DCSCA (797bc0) — 6/4/2017 @ 3:40 pm@152 happyfeet
I don’t want to meet the man who doesn’t like Alan Jackson.
Or rather, he doesn’t want to meet me.
Pinandpuller (16b0b5) — 6/4/2017 @ 3:56 pmwhat difference does it make,
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/06/04/london-terrorist-had-twice-referred-police-extremist-views/
narciso (d1f714) — 6/4/2017 @ 3:59 pmI never heard of Alan Jackson, and I could not possibly care less if I never hear from him again. And I never harbored any particular wish to meet you.
nk (dbc370) — 6/4/2017 @ 4:10 pmkishnevi, are you Muslim ?
Just wondering. You certainly are vigorously defending them,
Mike K (f469ea) — 6/4/2017 @ 4:21 pmAnother great book that lays out the very depressing facts:
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.express.co.uk/comment/expresscomment/800062/Douglas-Murray-book-The-Strange-Death-Of-Europe-Immigration-Identity-Islam/amp
harkin (610d75) — 6/4/2017 @ 4:23 pmIf Muslims and Mexicans were apples and oranges they’d be stacked 10 stories high at every California Port of Entry.
Pinandpuller (fc6a21) — 6/4/2017 @ 4:23 pm@160 nk
Hah! Fair dinkum, mate. I have no truck with you.
Also, I don’t drive 65 (N).
Pinandpuller (fc6a21) — 6/4/2017 @ 4:39 pm163 – “If Muslims and Mexicans were apples and oranges……”
If Mexico and central/South America were predominantly Muslim instead of Catholic, the US would be a worse terrorism flashpoint than Europe.
harkin (610d75) — 6/4/2017 @ 4:45 pmMr. Jackson’s responsible personally for doing rhymers on “Chatahoochee” and “hoochie coochie”
he’s only the most awesome one ever
happyfeet (28a91b) — 6/4/2017 @ 4:49 pmoopers *chattahoochee* i mean
happyfeet (28a91b) — 6/4/2017 @ 4:50 pmit’s like evil Truman show, or gattaca:
http://www.weaselzippers.us/342210-video-cnns-becky-anderson-sets-up-and-directs-muslim-protest-the-london-terror-attack/
narciso (d1f714) — 6/4/2017 @ 5:11 pmCNN and the AP caught staging Muslim “anti – ISIS” demonstrations, to the point of giving them signs, telling them where to stand…bringing in ethnic Asian police officers who left as soon as the shot was complete…..
https://mobile.twitter.com/markantro/status/871419204846669825
harkin (610d75) — 6/4/2017 @ 5:13 pmWell, how would you make an anti-ISIS propaganda video? Have some fat old white guys in MAGA hats parading around with pig heads?
nk (dbc370) — 6/4/2017 @ 5:22 pmthe point is, it’s not real, then again that can be said of much of Rupert pupkin and ap’s operations, my editor friend has to pan through pyrite to get the facts
narciso (d1f714) — 6/4/2017 @ 5:26 pm169, too bad Scotland lies north, not south or on an island far into the Atlantic. You could just start with that group from the fake demo and build from there.
urbanleftbehind (847a06) — 6/4/2017 @ 5:30 pmMore on the CNN & AP fake news depts setting up the muslims for peace fake demonstrations:
http://www.powerlineblog.com/archives/2017/06/cnn-stages-anti-isis-protest-in-london.php
harkin (610d75) — 6/4/2017 @ 5:35 pmthe non aussie fellow, sounds like h rap brown, or whatever name he was going for when was Norwegian blued:
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/apr/15/preachers-spiritual-cheerleaders-social-media-syria-london-university
narciso (d1f714) — 6/4/2017 @ 5:39 pmMuslims and Johnson Grass are taking over.
Time to Bush Hog or Die.
Believe it.
Pinandpuller (fc6a21) — 6/4/2017 @ 5:47 pmCompared to the photo-op of Trump, that race traitor, doing a sword dance with a bunch of towel heads in Saudi Arabia, this is peanuts.
nk (dbc370) — 6/4/2017 @ 5:51 pmGet the guy who does artwork on grains of rice to inscribe a message to ISIS on FMJ’s. No NEA grant needed.
Pinandpuller (fc6a21) — 6/4/2017 @ 5:55 pmAlan Jackson is getting his next 15 of deserved fame because the obese version of himself did that sausage party gig in the Mecca land.
urbanleftbehind (847a06) — 6/4/2017 @ 6:01 pmYou know, if Lawrence had survived his motorcycle wreck he’d probably agree that women shouldn’t drive.
Pinandpuller (fc6a21) — 6/4/2017 @ 6:04 pmtim power’s declare, not a light read, ties together philby burgess, the deaths of turing, and Lawrence, in a rather rococo plot, a pastiche of le carre with lovecraft,
narciso (d1f714) — 6/4/2017 @ 6:10 pmDo foreigners have creative slurs for Americans?
Are people from Arizona sand kaffirs?
Pinandpuller (fc6a21) — 6/4/2017 @ 6:10 pm” that sausage party gig in the Mecca land.”
The halal menu at Guantanamo enjoyed that.
harkin (77a37c) — 6/4/2017 @ 6:15 pmit offers among other things, a supernatural origin story, for soviet communism,
narciso (d1f714) — 6/4/2017 @ 6:15 pmI thought “Declare” was the lightest of Powers’s stuff, after “The Drawing Of The Dark”. It was the last book of his I liked. He had lost me with “Three Days To Never”, really godawful but I read it to the end; and there was no way I was going to read “Hide Me Among The Graves” since I had not liked the prequel “The Stress Of Her Regard”. I gave “Medusa’s Web” a chance but put it down after the first couple of chapters.
nk (dbc370) — 6/4/2017 @ 6:22 pmit was the first one I really got into, the time travel one, really didn’t work, and the romantic horror tale didn’t either,
narciso (d1f714) — 6/4/2017 @ 6:26 pmGet a load of the king. He’s doing the sword dance for that milk-drinking child of Satan.
Pinandpuller (fc6a21) — 6/4/2017 @ 6:32 pmAt least President Trump didn’t drink out of the wrong well.
Pinandpuller (fc6a21) — 6/4/2017 @ 6:38 pmThe most trouble Alan Jackson got in was with the Army Corp of Engineers when he went all Mr T on some trees by his Center Hill Lake house.
Pinandpuller (fc6a21) — 6/4/2017 @ 6:40 pmTrump doing a sword dance in Saudi Arabia, CNN staging a Muslim-friendly fake news event in London, it’s all part of Muslim infiltration, Muslim indoctrination, Muslim subversion, and the international Muslim conspiracy to sap our martial spirit and impurify all of our precious bodily fluids.
nk (dbc370) — 6/4/2017 @ 6:44 pmI couldn’t get into Anubis gate, either, maybe it was just me,
narciso (d1f714) — 6/4/2017 @ 6:47 pmI know what you mean. You’ve got to be in the mood for him.
nk (dbc370) — 6/4/2017 @ 6:56 pmkishnevi, are you Muslim ?
Just wondering. You certainly are vigorously defending them,
Jewish. Which means I get some objectivity here.
For one thing, there are more than a few similarities between Judaism and Islam. For instance, how we deal with Scripture (Torah for me, Quran for them). It’s a lot less cut and dried than Steve thinks it is. As Holland’s book should make clear, both developed in the sane general cultural milieu. And they kept developing up until the modern era. Maimonides spent his life under Islam, as did Yosef Karo, Yitzchak Luria, and (on the negative side) Sabbatai Zevi. What happened to Jews in the Ottoman Empire was important as what happened to Jews in Christian Europe. So there are a number of things (such as arranged marriage) which are normal in Islam, abnormal in modern America, and not outside my experience. (I can say the arranged marriages I know of in my family tree happened a century or more ago, and were not happy marriages (one pair of grandparents and at least one, probably more, set of great grandparents).)
It is also quite true that any ban on halal would also be a ban on kosher meat, any ban on sharia courts would also be ban on Jewish religious courts. It make it near impossible to be an Orthodox Jew.
For another thing, a lot of anti-Islamic rhetoric often sounds like the rhetoric hurled against Jews a century ago, and against immigrants generally in the US. Heck, they were accusing Germans of refusing to assimilate and wanting to take over the country back in Pennsylvania before the Revolution! If they were wrong and bigoted when dealing with my people, why aren’t they wrong and bigoted now. And some stuff reads like a straight copy job of Nazi era stuff.
And then I read Hoagie’s rants, which show that on this subject he has no idea of the actual facts….
I am aware of Islamic terrorism. Terrorism has been a threat to Jews worldwide for decades. But if you want to stop, the first step is acknowledge that 90% of Muslims don’t think killing nonMuslims is an integral part of Islam. The second step is acknowledge that claiming killing infidels is an integral part of Islam will only make that ninety percent p.o.’d and in no moid to help stop the terrorism.
kishnevi (948a4d) — 6/4/2017 @ 6:58 pmI liked Anubis Gate and Stress of Her Regard, but was totally unable to read any of his other stuff, including the sequel to Stress
kishnevi (948a4d) — 6/4/2017 @ 7:03 pmtheresa may’s lost her freaking mind
what a pathetic turd-woman
her and the queen should get together and try to out-vapid each other to raise monies for the victims
happyfeet (28a91b) — 6/4/2017 @ 7:05 pmIs Melania the only woman you have a kind word for, happyfeet?
nk (dbc370) — 6/4/2017 @ 7:09 pmthe question, comes down what is to be done:
https://pjmedia.com/richardfernandez/2017/06/04/the-niceties-lose-to-the-necessities/
narciso (d1f714) — 6/4/2017 @ 7:09 pmMelania and also Nina Dobrev
so that is 100% more
happyfeet (28a91b) — 6/4/2017 @ 7:10 pmDid the king bump PDJT’s hand away?
Pinandpuller (fc6a21) — 6/4/2017 @ 7:11 pmFor Steve
kishnevi (948a4d) — 6/4/2017 @ 7:11 pmhttps://borepatch.blogspot.com/2017/06/75-years-ago.html
some of his oevre, although that last one you mentioned didn’t ring a bell:
https://www.inverse.com/article/18470-tim-powers-philip-k-dick-conspiracy-theories
narciso (d1f714) — 6/4/2017 @ 7:13 pmWhat is it with you people today? Have you entirely lost your minds. Very few have retained the ability to think rationally.
I chided kishnevi for two reasons.
1. Not knowing the subject, as is typical of the “all religions are the same” crowd.
2. Making the basic category error of confusing Islam with Muslims. What individual Muslims, particularly Westernized Muslims, are capable of ignoring doesn’t tell you a damn thing about what Islam preaches. Frankly most Westernized Muslims are capable of ignoring the entire Quran, as I’ve met very few who have actually read it. And the texts that comprise the Sunnah? The Tafsir? They’ve never even heard of them.
It’s a simple thing, nk. Individual Muslims, like individual practitioners of any religion, are not a source of religious authority. The religious authority is contained in the canonical texts.
Steve57 (0b1dac) — 6/4/2017 @ 7:17 pm“The second step is acknowledge that claiming killing infidels is an integral part of Islam will only make that ninety percent p.o.’d and in no moid to help stop the terrorism.”
Subjugation first, intimidation and murder if they don’t subject.
As to apostates, just kill. ““Whoever changes his religion, execute him.”
So…the “dont call us violent or we’ll kill you” meme has always been a hoot.
Until they get more upset over violence amongst themselves than they do about people pointing out the elevated occurance of violence everywhere muslims make up a good portion of the populace, its only getting worse.
harkin (77a37c) — 6/4/2017 @ 7:19 pmNarciso
I saw a pretty good movie you might like called Stander. Think Ned Kelly in South Africa in the 80’s. This Stander guy was real as well. It sort of highlights the limits of police.
Pinandpuller (fc6a21) — 6/4/2017 @ 7:20 pmI’ll check it out,
stress was the romantic vampire tale I was talking about.
narciso (d1f714) — 6/4/2017 @ 7:23 pmWhat is it with you people today? Have you entirely lost your minds.
You people? You people?!?!?!?
“Where do they teach you talk like this? In some Panama City ‘Sailor wanna hump-hump’ bar, or is it getaway day and your last shot at his whiskey? Sell crazy someplace else, we’re all stocked up here.” – Melvin Udall [Jack Nicholson] ‘As Good As It Gets’ 1997
DCSCA (797bc0) — 6/4/2017 @ 7:26 pmthere are more than a few similarities between Judaism and Islam.
Islam is a Jewish heresy. That is why Mohammed hated Jews and why the Quran is so hostile to them. Surely you know that Mohammed expected Jews, and there were many in Arabia at the time, would adopt his new version of Judaism.
Christianity is also derived from Judaism but, after centuries of hostility, has accepted the role of both in modern life,
Islam has not.
Mike K (f469ea) — 6/4/2017 @ 7:30 pmPriorities?
urbanleftbehind (360671) — 6/4/2017 @ 7:32 pmhttp://www.yahoo.com/news/man-fled-london-terror-attack-pint-people-proud-133038396.html
The religious authority is contained in the canonical texts.
No, it’s contained in the interpretation that people give to those texts.
To put it in Christian terms, you are saying the equivalent of “ignore everything written by Augustine, Aquinas, Luther, Calvin, John of the Cross, the monks of Mt Athos, etc. because they have no authority”. Yes, that leaves the Bible, but leaves a person totally at sea about Christian belief. Even the most “sola Scriptura” zealous Protestant has to draw on 1900 years of Christian writing ( and 500 years of Protestant writing) to figure out what Scripture is saying.
BTW, I don’t know many Muslims, but all the ones I do know are knowledgeable about Islam, the Quran, etc.
kishnevi (948a4d) — 6/4/2017 @ 7:42 pmIt’s one of these Gordian knot problems but there has to be a method, and the ostrich walk isn’t it. France took some tentative steps under valls, who knows where things will go with le macron.
narciso (d1f714) — 6/4/2017 @ 7:43 pm……”It wasn’t because of my ridiculing that modern European tradition whereby someone blows us up and we respond by singing John Lennon songs (and now Oasis too).
Rather, they objected to my simple two-word suggestion that we could all do with “less Islam”.
Poland, Hungary and the Czech Republic have very little Islam and very little Islamic terror.
By contrast, France has a great amount of Islam and a great amount of Islamic terror.
To most people, it would seem obvious — in the words of Donatella Versace — that “more is more”.”
Read it all, great article on the Dhimmists who wish to discount the threat of Islam.
https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/3722649/never-mind-singing-john-lennon-songs-if-we-want-peace-then-we-need-one-thing-less-islam/amp/
harkin (77a37c) — 6/4/2017 @ 7:44 pmbut all the ones I do know are knowledgeable about Islam, the Quran, etc
Their education consists of memorizing the Quran, Of course they know it.
Mike K (f469ea) — 6/4/2017 @ 7:51 pmSo if David Clarke wears a cowboy hat, does this man wear a bobbies’ hat, doughboy helmet or a knights’ chain mail head covering?
urbanleftbehind (360671) — 6/4/2017 @ 7:55 pm@195 nk
Is Melania the only First Lady you wanna see nekkid?
Pinandpuller (16b0b5) — 6/4/2017 @ 8:03 pmFact is any country with a significant Muslim minority has lots of issues.
Where they are the majority, you must submit.
Simple. Alegebra.
To quote one of my favorite funny Howard Stern sayings … “wake up white people.”
And good fences make better neighbors …
Blah (44eaa0) — 6/4/2017 @ 8:06 pmAfzal was a Chief Crown Prosecutor. A lot more like Patterico (or more precisely, Patterico’s boss) than any policeman. And he was originally a solicitor, not a barrister, so no funny wig for him (unless/until he becomes a judge).
kishnevi (948a4d) — 6/4/2017 @ 8:07 pmThe Quran is like Kitty Kelly’s unauthorized bio of God.
Pinandpuller (16b0b5) — 6/4/2017 @ 8:08 pmWhy do you ask? Do you have nekkid pitchers of any of the others?
nk (dbc370) — 6/4/2017 @ 8:09 pm“But if you want to stop, the first step is acknowledge that 90% of Muslims don’t think killing nonMuslims is an integral part of Islam.”
In countries like the US, 90% might say they are against mass casualty attacks like suicide bombings, but it’s less than 90% with regard to bombing civilians in Israel, and that doesn’t mean they are opposed to the murder of infidels. The percentage who believe it is okay to assassinate specific individuals–to honor kill women and to kill apostates, homos, and critics of Mohammed–is significantly higher than 10%.
Daryl Herbert (7be116) — 6/4/2017 @ 8:12 pmMuslim harassing Jew to Christian:
“I learned it from watching you!”
Pinandpuller (16b0b5) — 6/4/2017 @ 8:12 pmHe seems a decent enough bloke
http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-40101558
narciso (d1f714) — 6/4/2017 @ 8:12 pmActually for the average Muslim it is very cut and dried. There is a reason the name of the religion is Islam. It means submission. And a Muslim is one who submits.
Surah 3:7
Essentially this verse means, “Don’t ask too many questions.” If you ask too many questions about the meaning of something in the Quran, and you don’t blindly accept the answer, you have “deviation [from truth]” in your heart and are “seeking discord.” I know a Muslim, a Shia from Iraq, who left Islam. Part of the reason why is because he kept asking his Imam too many questions. His Imam told him, “In the old country you’d already be dead for asking so many questions.”
Surah 4:65
Again, this concerns blind faith. When Allah and the prophet (and in other verses, those appointed above the Muslims such as the religious scholars) Muslims must accept the decision immediately and with no mental reservations.
Surah 33:36
You are quite the piece of work, kishnevi. Earlier you said.
First, most Muslims aren’t terrorists because they obviously know those verses are in the Quran. Because if they didn’t know they were there they wouldn’t need to take the next step of ignoring them.
Now, if we’re honest about the motivating ideology of the terrorists we’re going to piss off the other 90 percent who if we just left them alone would have lived peacefully in blissful ignorance.
Which is it, kishnevi? Or does it depend on the day.
This is how we got here. This moronic thinking is leading to a veritable “terrorist attack of the week” in Britain.
So, this is your plan, kishnevi?
1. Import thousands if not hundreds of thousands of ticking time bombs.
2. Lie to them and the general public as if both groups aren’t capable of discovering what’s in the Quran on their own, but the important thing is to not piss off the Muslims or they’ll kill us.
3. Fail to develop effective security measures because you’ve taken honest discussion of the motivating ideology of the terrorists off the table.
You’re so clever, kishnevi. Why don’t you move to Western Europe. Since wanting to commit national suicide is a prerequisite for a political career I predict you’ll be prime minister of a dying country that’s already adopted your formula.
Steve57 (0b1dac) — 6/4/2017 @ 8:27 pmThe main problem I have with Muslims is interpreting their behavior.
Like for instance, I was talking to a couple of Muslim guys the other day about the premier of Game of Thrones.
That could either mean they are assimilated or planning an attack like the pre 911 strip club visit.
Pinandpuller (16b0b5) — 6/4/2017 @ 8:31 pmI guess nowadays we would consider yamamoto too moderate a Shinto to have pulled off pearl harbor, it must have been another control Camarilla member.
narciso (d1f714) — 6/4/2017 @ 8:33 pm“The UK is running low on counterterror resources. The Times of London reported that “intelligence officers have identified 23,000 jihadist extremists living in Britain as potential terrorist attackers … about 3,000 people from the total group are judged to pose a threat.”
The British police simply don’t have enough men to watch an insurgent army of this size and have had to cancel famous public events like the Changing of the Guards to release police from duties like crowd security or road closures. “The sad truth about the Government’s decision to deploy up to 5,000 troops on British streets is that it is an admission of failure,” wrote Robert Verkaik. In particular it is a failure to anticipate the threat and provide enough resources to maintain the required superiority which makes the civilities possible.”
https://pjmedia.com/richardfernandez/2017/06/04/the-niceties-lose-to-the-necessities/
Goodbye Europe – when you finally wake up I seriously doubt the US will be in any position to assist as it did during the world wars.
harkin (77a37c) — 6/4/2017 @ 8:33 pm103. nk (dbc370) — 6/4/2017 @ 9:30 am
When was that? I remember there was an ncident where (I think more than one) innocent bystander was wounded but they also killed the man with the gun. (This was when two construction workers saw a man calmly kill someone by the Empire State Building and they followed him and passed by two anti-terrroist police and told them he’d just killed someone. I think it was maybe a mistake to confront him abruptly. What did they expect to happen if what the construction workers were telling them was right?)
But taking this as more or less accurate, I think the difference is NYPD and LAPD cops have guns that can fire more billets withot reloading. In London. 8 cops fired 50 bullets – that’s just over 6 per policeman. So they are still using 6 shooters maybe.
Which brings up my point, nobody – except a terrorist or other mass killer – needs a magazine a that can fire more than 6 or 7 bullets, and they shouldn’t be manufactured.
Sammy Finkelman (32408d) — 6/4/2017 @ 8:36 pmOne of the terrorists who may be an ibadi adherent? Tried to force his whole family t convert.
narciso (d1f714) — 6/4/2017 @ 8:41 pmNo, Sammy. And no again.
nk (dbc370) — 6/4/2017 @ 8:43 pmI’m so worried about an attack I don’t even buy green bananas anymore.
Pinandpuller (16b0b5) — 6/4/2017 @ 8:44 pm149, narciso (d1f714) — 6/4/2017 @ 3:04 pm
Babylon was destroyed by Persia and the Medes.
Actually it had been previously destroyed by Assyria, but it was rebuilt, and went on to rule over Israel and, after 11 years and a rebellion, burn Solomon’s Temple.
Sammy Finkelman (32408d) — 6/4/2017 @ 8:45 pm227. Then they are simply much more careful about firing them.
Sammy Finkelman (32408d) — 6/4/2017 @ 8:46 pmUnlu against pointed sticks.
narciso (d1f714) — 6/4/2017 @ 8:48 pm@223 narciso
Behind every craft beer and complicated facial hair is a middle aged white guy with a gun.
Pinandpuller (16b0b5) — 6/4/2017 @ 8:48 pmMedes always get top billing Sammeh, it was in the contract. If Persia was on top they walked.
Pinandpuller (16b0b5) — 6/4/2017 @ 8:51 pmAnd aslan is a class act, he wouldn’t lie.
narciso (d1f714) — 6/4/2017 @ 8:52 pmYes, and we do have at least one policeman who knows how to shoot. In Texas, where else?
nk (dbc370) — 6/4/2017 @ 8:54 pmHolland almost relied on much on procopious as gibbon re early Islam which is a problem
narciso (d1f714) — 6/4/2017 @ 8:57 pmHow can anyone say, on the one hand, that Muslims will be violent and kill strangers because they adhere to their religion and that’s what their religion teaches; and, on the other hand, “most Westernized Muslims are capable of ignoring the entire Quran, as I’ve met very few who have actually read it” and they have no idea what their religion teaches?
You can argue most do not adhere strictly to their religion, but if they did, they’d be out killing people. Now it’s true that some imams maybe teach this kind of thing, but it doesn’t follow that that’s where Islam, honestly interpreted, leads people, and it’s new, and usually requires a helping of political fiction.
Islam does have some potential for getting them to take up arms in a war, but there’s got to be someone in charge of the war.
Sammy Finkelman (32408d) — 6/4/2017 @ 9:02 pmI don’t think it’s a good idea to argue that Anwar al-Awlaki on the tapes, is correct in his interpretation of Islam. Especially since he didn’t really believe it himself – he didn’t practice what he preached – he saw prostitutes.
Sammy Finkelman (32408d) — 6/4/2017 @ 9:07 pm235, some on this board would have fellated the dead peep from that Austin story.
urbanleftbehind (847a06) — 6/4/2017 @ 9:15 pmhttp://www.cnn.com/2017/06/05/middleeast/saudi-bahrain-egypt-uae-qatar-terror/
Saudi Arabia, Bahrain, UAE and Egypt have cut diplomatic ties with Qatar on grounds of supporting terrorism.
This probably has something to do with Trump’s visit unless it’s related to trying to mprove relations with Israel. Or maybe it’s something else altogether, like trying to be on both sides with regard to Iran.
There’s been an anti-Qatar PR campaign going on for a few days and Qatar even took the step of expelling a few Hamas people.
Only one thing: Where is the United States here? The U.S. not only has diplomatic relatons with Qarae, it has a military base or two.
Sammy Finkelman (32408d) — 6/4/2017 @ 9:34 pm@238 Sammy
Some imams perform temporary marriages between the faithful and prostitutes.
Pinandpuller (fc6a21) — 6/4/2017 @ 10:41 pm@217 nk
I had a business proposal for my Bratva friend. If you don’t pay we put nekkid hillary screensaver on your computers.
Pinandpuller (fc6a21) — 6/4/2017 @ 10:46 pmThere was a guy I heard about on Crimetown. He didn’t do robberies. He just sold the plans. What people did with the plans was their business. Kind of like Michael Caine in The Prestige.
Pinandpuller (fc6a21) — 6/4/2017 @ 10:51 pm@235 nk
That’s a heck of a shot. Like goal post to goalpost at Texas Stadium. The only way it would have been better is if his reins were in his teeth. And he was married to Gisele.
Pinandpuller (fc6a21) — 6/4/2017 @ 11:06 pmhttps://townhall.com/columnists/kurtschlichter/2017/06/05/a-week-of-surfing-on-a-sea-of-liberal-tears-n2336277
mg (31009b) — 6/5/2017 @ 2:30 amName an actual, real-world example of Muslims successfully assimilating into a pluralistic western style democracy where men and women are equal before the law, all people regardless of religion are equal before the law, all people have equal rights including freedom of speech and freedom of conscience.
And remained so even if they came to be in the majority.
Because this is the road Europe has chosen to go down. And there are examples of such countries, bu they’re all negative.
Steve57 (0b1dac) — 6/5/2017 @ 3:40 amName an actual, real-world, pre-WWII, example of Anglo-Saxons successfully assimilating into a pluralistic western style democracy where men and women are equal before the law, all people regardless of religion are equal before the law, all people have equal rights including freedom of speech and freedom of conscience.
And remained so even if they came to be in the majority.
nk (dbc370) — 6/5/2017 @ 4:16 amSince we must pursue squirrels:
https://amgreatness.com/2017/06/04/punishing-real-russia-crime-leaking/
narciso (6ea81f) — 6/5/2017 @ 4:23 am?!?!?!?!
You’re a little late to the party, pal. I told you in my comment @ 6/4/2017 @ 12:13 pm that I rely on 1200 years of Muslim scholarship to inform my opinion of what the Quran means. Primarily the exegesis of ibn Kathir; a medieval scholar, true, but one whose work has never been surpassed. And now you think by bringing up the like of Aquinas, Augustine, et al, you think, what? That you’re telling me something I don’t know?
We derive the name Sunni for the largest sect in Islam from the term in Arabic that the Sunnis use to describe themselves. Ahlus Sunnah wa’al Jema’a. They are the adherents of the Sunnah of Muhammad, the Ahadith and the Sirah literature, and of the congregation. Really the congregation means the consensus of the Ulema or religious scholars. Once their scholars reach a consensus on some matter that hadn’t already been decided by Allah or Muhammad then the Sunnis can’t have a different opinion. This is why in my comment @ 6/4/2017 @ 8:27 pm I pointed out that for rank and file Muslims it very much cut and dried. To be a good Muslim they must accept the verdicts of Allah, Muhammad, and those appointed over them (the ulema) immediately, without any reservations, and with total submission. Asking too many questions means you are not a good Muslim. In fact if you refer to my comment @ 6/4/2017 @ 11:50 pm I pointed out that researchers have interviewed convicted jihadis. Like and dislike isn’t in their vocabulary. Since the Quran says that the relationship between a Muslim and Allah is the same as between a slave and a slave master the only thing that matters to them is that Allah has commanded it. Striving to be the best, most obedient slaves possible they simply carry out Allah’s orders. As Allah says in Surah 2:216:
But I do have to congratulate you. This is quite a step of from your earlier position that “…most Moslems are fine with ignoring all those passages you talk about.” I responded by saying the, “most Muslims” standard is not a source of religious authority.
But now I see that since your previous position has become uncomfortable you’ve developed another one.
Oh, wow. Just wow. Not even the worst “Islamophobe thinks all Muslims are terrorists or support terrorism even if they know what’s in the Quran. But here it is in black and white. Unless we keep up the Obama/Kerry/Blair/May/Merkel “noble lie” that Islam has nothing to do with terrorism. That there is nothing in the Quran from cover to cover that could possibly inspire a terrorist act, and it certainly doesn’t exhort its adherents to strap a bomb to themselves and blow themselves up taking as many of the filthy Kuffar with them.
But unless we continue with the most transparent of lies as a literate 11 year old can see through this we’ll turn change the entire 90 percent who currently don’t believe killing non-Muslims is an inherent part of their religion into allies of the 10 percent of those who already believe jihad against the unbelievers is a religious requirement.
So kishnevi thinks we need to lie to Muslims about what’s in the Quran because if we were honest about it 100 percent of Muslims will become terrorists or terrorist supporters.
This is not true on so many different levels I’m not even going to bother going into it now. But that’s besides the point. kishnevi thinks it’s true. Why do you have such a low opinion of Muslims, kishnevi?
Steve57 (0b1dac) — 6/5/2017 @ 4:28 amFrom the files of Its a Shame They All Can’t Lose: http://www.yahoo.com/news/saudi-arabia-egypt-uae-sever-ties-qatar-over-040718986.html
urbanleftbehind (10b4ec) — 6/5/2017 @ 5:10 am?!?!? Name an actual Anglo-Saxon country. That term didn’t even apply to Britain when the monk Bede first used it in the 8th century. He could be forgiven for getting his ethnography all wrong but it’s ridiculous for a supposedly intelligent man to be throwing around the term in the 21st century. The United States couldn’t even be called an English country by the time of the revolution given Scots-Irish and German immigration. More to the point, very few people claiming English ancestry had even a tiny connection to those two tiny German tribes. And of course the percentage of the population that claimed English ancestry became a smaller and smaller percentage of the population due to 19th and early 20th century immigration. That’s why our victory in WWII is tongue in cheek attributed to our Germans being better than their Germans.
Just because the French use it as a pejorative to describe any English speaking country doesn’t make it true.
I take it you can’t come up with a meaningful analogy, then.
Steve57 (0b1dac) — 6/5/2017 @ 5:17 amMy first sentence in may comment @ 5:17 referred to this. It assumes that somewhere on the globe there’s a country where the Anglo-Saxons have come into the majority after the creation of the concept of a pluralistic western style democracy where men and women are equal before the law, all people regardless of religion are equal before the law, all people have equal rights including freedom of speech and freedom of conscience.
I’m pointing out that’s going to pretty tough to do for a people that hasn’t existed for centuries, if ever.
Steve57 (0b1dac) — 6/5/2017 @ 5:22 amSorry to have bothered you. Carry on.
nk (dbc370) — 6/5/2017 @ 5:27 amI always do find it silly when “Anglo” is used as a differentiator between white non-hispanic and hispanic, especially considering the large post-Alamo German, Swedish, and Czech immigration into Texas and the movement of Polish-origin and other Ellis Island people throughout the southwest (lots of ex-Chicago in greater Phoenix, for example) .
There was a US map broken down by self-identified Ethnicity in which the only English majority were in Utah and nearby counties in other states. Rural counties elsewhere with similar racial compositions sel-identified as “American”. Is that a Mormon holdover from the wagon train being chased from town days?
urbanleftbehind (10b4ec) — 6/5/2017 @ 5:29 amIn other news
http://www.thedailybeast.com/devin-nunes-on-unmasking-oh-this-is-only-the-beginning
narciso (869101) — 6/5/2017 @ 6:03 am“You’re so clever, kishnevi. Why don’t you move to Western Europe. Since wanting to commit national suicide is a prerequisite for a political career I predict you’ll be prime minister of a dying country that’s already adopted your formula.”
– Steve57
You are such a drama queen on this subject. What is the point of all of your clearly intense study if you are going to undermine your own arguments with this sort of goofiness? You might have the ammunition, but you lack the means of delivering it effectively.
Leviticus (cc120d) — 6/5/2017 @ 6:10 amnk, nice link regarding the APD cop holding two horses and shooting a terrorist at 100 yards with a pistol.
Leviticus, he takes the internet seriously because this is what he has. Same reason someone might brag too much online, or feel the need to own a discussion thread. This is all they have. These sorts of folks were particularly susceptible to the Trump movement for some reason. They are taking this kind of discussion too seriously to ever engage someone they disagree with mildly or interestingly. They think this is an actual battle for something.
Dustin (ba94b2) — 6/5/2017 @ 6:51 amThe more you call them out on their BS Steve, the louder they bray.
Well done.
harkin (77a37c) — 6/5/2017 @ 6:59 amTurns out one of the terrorists was featured in a bbc feature sometime back, tax dollars at work.
narciso (4b5fd3) — 6/5/2017 @ 7:07 amFaith, Prayer, Charity, Fasting, Pilgrimage. Those are the five pillars of Islam. If you believe those five things, you’re a Muslim.
ISIS and the most evil Islamofascists would have you believe that Islam requires something more hateful, but they are in direct conflict with a sane interpretation. We’ve seem zealots do this crap with many religions. They one up eachother in zealotry and add in all sorts of obscure or controversial interpretations.
The fact is that the Quran is not set in stone. Muhammed had many scribes, and their accounts of the text conflicted. The Bible has many aspects most Christians do not worry about literally, with explanations that are pretty tenuous.
It is so helpful to the legitimacy of the bad guys to insist Islam is what they want it to be, and not what most Muslims want it to be. Kishnevi is 100% right, and I’ve been saying so for many years. But then I actually know Muslims and have an understanding of Islam that didn’t come from Stormfront or Alex Jones.
Dustin (ba94b2) — 6/5/2017 @ 7:37 amExcept awlaki, abedi jibtil they seem to have a big YouTube presence which would seem to violate their terms of service, sbirley.
narciso (4b5fd3) — 6/5/2017 @ 8:05 amInteresting events in dearborn.
narciso (4b5fd3) — 6/5/2017 @ 8:15 amLet’s take it down a few notches, shall we. Be clear… fundamentalist Islam does not mean to divide us. It means to kill us.
Colonel Haiku (6dd99d) — 6/5/2017 @ 8:24 amA reporter / commentator this morning on the teevee observed that both Putin and Trump are alike in that they’re “pugnacious.” But the word pugnacious is nothing more than a euphemism for a-hole.
Tillman (a95660) — 6/5/2017 @ 8:27 amCould’ve sworn Patterico has rules about deliberately slandering other commenters. But you know better. Carry on.
NJRob (7f4bec) — 6/5/2017 @ 8:30 amIslam is devil worship. Period.
NJRob (7f4bec) — 6/5/2017 @ 8:31 amThose rules apply at The Jury, NJ Rob.
DRJ (15874d) — 6/5/2017 @ 8:38 amThe discussion can be more free-wheeling here.
DRJ (15874d) — 6/5/2017 @ 8:38 amWell, it’s all very interesting to know that only the jihadis do what the Koran says and 99% of Muslims don’t practice their religion properly.
nk (dbc370) — 6/5/2017 @ 8:44 am“Islam is devil worship. Period.” NJJob
Exodus 22:18 “Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live.”
There you go, your Christian commandment to murder then.
Tillman (a95660) — 6/5/2017 @ 8:57 amTillman… how goes the effort to bring Hillary! Clinton back within earth’s orbit?
Colonel Haiku (6dd99d) — 6/5/2017 @ 9:01 amIn my opinion Haiku, Clinton just needs to be content to quietly sit on the sidelines, watch this train wreck and eat popcorn.
Tillman (a95660) — 6/5/2017 @ 9:04 amTillman,
you supporting your leftist policies is just doing your part to make hell on earth.
NJRob (7f4bec) — 6/5/2017 @ 9:34 amTillman… she can’t sit while she’s in deep space. Good things are being done, not the least of which is the undoing of Obama’s actions to hamstring and disadvantage the nation he was supposed to serve. But you, #NeverTrumpistas and the Democrat operatives with bylines, aka teh media, will taste the ashes of the effort to topple the Trump administration. Bet on that.
Colonel Haiku (6dd99d) — 6/5/2017 @ 10:08 amSome details on the attackers
http://www.bbc.com/news/live/uk-40147014
narciso (d1f714) — 6/5/2017 @ 10:20 amFrom familiar roots
ttp://abcnews.go.com/amp/International/neighbors-identify-london-bridge-attacker-man-featured-recent/story?id=47837932
narciso (d1f714) — 6/5/2017 @ 10:22 amThere is a third fellow and also from Pakistan. The first was part of chawdarys mukahiroun the ones the Lee Rigby slaughter.
narciso (d1f714) — 6/5/2017 @ 10:27 amBlack Irish as it were, and Babu Bhat’s nephew. Good thing Jerry was slacking on picking up the mail that episode.
http://www.foxnews.com/world/2017/06/05/london-terror-attackers-profile-begins-to-emerge.html
urbanleftbehind (5eecdb) — 6/5/2017 @ 10:29 amThis is what sets me off, maybe I’ll turn in that K of C application after all.
http://www.yahoo.com/news/footage-shows-isis-backed-militants-112616813.html
urbanleftbehind (5eecdb) — 6/5/2017 @ 10:32 amThe first guy was a restaurant worker and worked the tube, but he was in the jihadist next door?
narciso (d1f714) — 6/5/2017 @ 10:43 am241.@238 Pinandpuller (fc6a21) — 6/4/2017 @ 10:41 pm
yes. they do these things, and I don’t know if they even need an imam. Saudi and other royals like in Brunei do that kind of thing. Moslems are limited to 4 wives at a time, though, so they may have to divorce one wife to make room for another. These are not officially temporary marriages, at least among Sunnis. Shiits have he concept of temporary marriage, which makes life a lot easier for some people in Iran, as any boy and girl can claim to be married, and if not they otherwise can’t really be together in one place. A Shiite temprry mariage can be broken up by both the man and the woman, who ordinarily could not divorce herself.
Sammy Finkelman (845007) — 6/5/2017 @ 11:08 am260. Dustin (ba94b2) — 6/5/2017 @ 7:37 am
That’s one of the things that they are hiding. There are, or were, many texts in Yemen that differ from the current one, and verses engraved on some mosques, like the Dome of the Rock in Jerusalem, are different, although it seems impossible to get Google to turn up a citation saying this.
But Bing turned up this (with the first search I tried that hadn’t worked on Google)
http://www.pineroandhudgins.com/2015/03/islam-quran-and-textual-criticism_16.html
Maybe with the help of this quotation, I could get Google to throw up something with a little bit more detail.
(I could try using such search terms as the words and phrases “variant” “textual” “corresponding verses” Sometimes, to get Google to work you need to use the same sort of phraseology as is common when writing about this. Google keep you in much more of a bubble than Bing.)
They do have a standard text, but I read it was fixed only in the year 903 CE.
And they go further and have Islamic teaching be things that I am pretty sure that not even Anwar al Awlaki tried to claim and ISIS doesn’t try. (It would not serve the purposes of ISIS for Muslims to be killing non-Muslims all the time, in all places at their own discretion.)
Sammy Finkelman (845007) — 6/5/2017 @ 11:46 amactually, vile turd-woman, this was an attack on people who are quite specifically and purposefully NOT free to defend themselves
happyfeet (28a91b) — 6/5/2017 @ 12:26 pmtearful Theresa gets on my nerves too, the iron lady earned a proper screed from clueless salman, the usual pre sjw nonsense, then he discovered that mi 5 is really helpful when a mad ayatollah has issued a fatwah against you,
narciso (d1f714) — 6/5/2017 @ 12:38 pmAs of this morning, we still didn’t have a breakdown of how many people were killed because they were run over by a van and how many were killed because they were stabbed.
I found an article that sounded like it was describing all the individuals who were killed, but it is not: (only two are named, one from the bridge, and one from the stabbings, and they are named only because they weren’t British because that’s what the article is about.)
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/0/victims-london-terror-attack/
Sammy Finkelman (845007) — 6/5/2017 @ 12:47 pmThe real problem with what British Prime Minister Theresa May has said is that she seems to think that the terrorists were inspired and put into action by what they read on the Internet and she’s calling for Internet companies to try harder to stop their platforms from being used.
I don’t believe anything like this is done without personal contact. And a lot of it.
She seems to believe that this:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4350140/ISIS-ordered-attack-Parliament-app-Telegram.html
(6 weeks before)
And this:
Hours before London attack, ISIS reportedly used app to call for knife and truck attacks
Actually caused the attacks!
But that’s a cover story.
A person who will believe that could also believe that the attack in Benghazi was inspired by a video, or at least by the events in Cairo.
And we especially see that there was a lot of instruction and direction in this case because of the fake suicide vests, which nobody would think of on their own, and which have no purpose except to get the perpetrators killed so they can’t give anything away, even maybe their identities. (I wouldn’t think this was a pathetic attempt to build them, or something to scare people away.)
People can be initially drawn in by the Internet (and really not the Internet alone) but it is a long process.
Sammy Finkelman (f46c1b) — 6/5/2017 @ 1:15 pmexcept mr. butt was a member in good standing with al mujahiroon, so it’s not just internet radicalization,
narciso (d1f714) — 6/5/2017 @ 1:18 pmIt’s probably not at all Internet radicalization. They probably get put on to Islamist websites (even if at first not the strongest ones) as a result of personal contact.
Sammy Finkelman (f46c1b) — 6/5/2017 @ 1:37 pm266. NJRob (7f4bec) — 6/5/2017 @ 8:31 am
No, that’s the Yazidis, or at least what they get accused of, mainly by Moslems.
Danuel patrick Moynihan talked about them, in explaining why so many votes in the United Nations are cast against Israel and the United States.
Sammy Finkelman (f46c1b) — 6/5/2017 @ 1:42 pmseriously cue graham chapman with his panana defense, against pointed sticks
https://www.steynonline.com/
narciso (d1f714) — 6/5/2017 @ 1:44 pmSammy,
Islam is devil worship. It’s about submission, forcing people his the sword to submit or die and child rape.
No, I will not equate it with Christianity nor Judiasm which worship God.
NJRob (2ccb82) — 6/5/2017 @ 1:51 pmBy the sword*
NJRob (2ccb82) — 6/5/2017 @ 1:51 pmTwo of the three attackers were identified by police.
One is 30 years old, but it seems they are uncertain (or CBS is uncertain) if his name and nationality and personal information is correct. Under his current identity he was not known to police.
The othwr is 27, Pakistani, and is a well known jihadist – he was in a TV documentary, and had been reported to police. One woman said he’d been trying to recruit children. Why, she asked. To save them, he said. Save them from what? This world. (I guess he knew that “saving them” was a bad answer because “saving” people is what Christians do and Islam may not have the same idea).
CBS interviewd some people where he lived. It was a very mixed building or neighborhod. One person said he’d asked – that Saturday – for information about renting a van like that man had. (something to make the attack look more spontaneous than it was?)
A dozen people at the location were arrested but later released. It seems like this was flailing.
Sammy Finkelman (f46c1b) — 6/5/2017 @ 4:59 pmThat’s funny. Unintentionally funny as you beclown yourself.
Christians don’t keep any aspect of the Mosaic law unless it has been affirmed by Christ. So please, scour the New Testament and report back when find Christ’s Sermon on Mount Witch Burning. Then it’ll be a Christian commandment to murder. But until then…
Steve57 (0b1dac) — 6/5/2017 @ 6:07 pmIs it possible that you don’t know that the Old Testament doesn’t contain commandments for Christians?
Steve57 (0b1dac) — 6/5/2017 @ 6:09 pmAnd the original term was poisoned?
narciso (d1f714) — 6/5/2017 @ 6:19 pmApparently Steve57, they know as much about Jews and Christians as they “know” about moslems. After all they actually know Jews and Christians and many moslems. So there!
It’s a lost cause Steve57. They have been turned into useful fools by years of propaganda and programming. Regardless of the truths you bring to bear they cannot see. They are too foolish to even recognize moslems are commanded to lie to Kaffars like themselves.
Rev.Hoagie® (630eca) — 6/5/2017 @ 6:29 pmIf you don’t know the fyndamentald of your own faith, you want understand how others are so resolute in there. So you have a 25 year old Kanye spouting NSA contractor who can’t tell up from down,
narciso (d1f714) — 6/5/2017 @ 6:37 pmCNN sets up fake news to keep the pro moslem propaganda up to date.
https://youtu.be/Vyky-YRU3DE
Rev.Hoagie® (630eca) — 6/5/2017 @ 7:01 pmIs it possible that you don’t know that the Old Testament doesn’t contain commandments for Christians?
The seven commandments given to Noah (at the start of Genesis chapter 9) apply to every single human being.
kishnevi (7bc26d) — 6/5/2017 @ 7:02 pmWhich commandment aoplies to witches again. Now we may be dealing with amalekites the successors of numidia, the sabeans in some cases.
narciso (d1f714) — 6/5/2017 @ 7:08 pmDo witches or sorceresses exist?
Are they equivalent to babies in the Pro-Choice religion?
One is fiction and the other is real.
n.n (866fcc) — 6/5/2017 @ 7:20 pmWhat you say about the Quran is true. But on the other hand Muslims don’t know that. They are taught the Quran that they possess today has been perfectly preserved since it was revealed to Muhammad. Itthat is the perfect copy of the eternal, uncreated, immutable word of Allah which is engraved on tablets in paradise.
I don’t know what you mean with your vague inferences about the Bible. Perhaps we don’t worry about them because we don’t make the same claims about the Bible that Muslims make about Quran. That’s why Bibles have notes at the bottom of the pages pointing out the textual variants or the omissions. For instance, in the Gospel of John Chapter 5 there is no verse 4 in the most up to date translations. There is a verse 4 in the King James Version, for instance. But in the roughly four centuries since that Bible was produced we’ve found much earlier texts and the fact of the matter is there simply isn’t a verse 4 prior to 500 A.D.
As I said, Kishnevi is wrong on so many different levels I didn’t know where to begin. Now I suppose I should address the first level, since you have provided the opportunity and I see you share the same conceit, which is that we as non-Muslim westerners can legitimize the Islamic State in the eyes of Muslims. As if Muslims around the globe who didn’t like the Islamic State or were on the fence are going to rush off to join it now that that IS has Theresa May’s and Angela Merkel’s and Pope Francis’ stamp of approval. That is laughable. That is the Ariana Grande “One Love” school of security policy. It would be like the Ayatollah Khameini expounding on who is and who is not a real Christian. I can tell you what my reaction wouldn’t be; “Wow, I’m not living up to this guy’s expectations of a Christian. I better straighten up and fly right.”
My reaction would be the same one that Muslims from Morocco through Egypt and the M.E. across South Asia have when you non-Muslim western “Imams” talk about how you imagine you could legitimize the Islamic State. ROFLMAO.
Osama bin Laden didn’t invent the Arabic proverb about when people see a strong horse and a weak horse, the people prefer the strong horse. When you’re afraid to tell the truth about the obvious, the Islamic terrorism has very much to do with Islam, you are the weak horse. And that’s the recruiting tool. The fact that we are so weak and stupid and so very, very afraid we have to pretend not to see the glaringly obvious that is right in front of our face. Somebody who pretends to know as much as you do about Islam and Muslims, Dustin. If you did actually know anything about the Muslim mind.
Doesn’t it bother you Dustin that you and kishnevi have been proven wrong? Barack Obama and every Western European government have been following your formula for a decade and its a demonstrable failure.
Actually my understanding of Islam began with taking enough Islamic studies courses in college that I could have double majored. The courses went well with my political science degree as I did my honors thesis on Soviet Central Asia (the ‘stans).
But I figured life would be hard enough with a poli sci degree. I didn’t want to complicate matters by having a religious studies degree, making future employers think I was a religious fanatic. Considering my future employer was the USN and I became an intel officer it probably would have helped to double major. But the important thing is that I had the knowledge and continued to build on it over years.
And guess what, Dustin! Alex Jones and Stormfront didn’t exist yet. Neither did the internet. I had to use actual, authentic Islamic textual sources. BTW I’m always amazed how much you leftists are obsessed about those non-entities because in right-wing circles they never come up.
I’m also amused how you think you learned about Islam from the Muslims you know. I don’t know what you think your relationship is with them. But I do know what their relationship is with you if they’re devout and knowledgeable. They despise you, because Allah commands them to despise you.
98:6
You can explain to them until you’re blue in the face that you’re not a Christian but that does not good. If they’re devout and knowledgeable. As far as they’re concerned you are. And that makes you lower than any created being, lower than pigs and dogs.
So if they’re devout and knowledgeable they can only pretend to be your friend as a form of insurance. A philosophy of “keep your friends close and your enemy closer.”
Surah 3:28
Actually being your -friend would bring them to ruin according to Allah. Surah 5, The Table Spread, 51-53 (Yusuf Ali):
On the other hand perhaps they’re genuine friends of yours. Again, I don’t know your situation. But if they are that means they don’t know their Islam.
Either way, knowledgeable and contemptuous of you or genuine friends because they don’t know their Islam, how much genuine knowledge do you imagine they’re going to let you in on.
I much prefer books.
Steve57 (0b1dac) — 6/5/2017 @ 9:04 pmWere alnoat rapt d d day, its as if we would called it off because of those nice folk moltke stauffenberg and canaris how would that ha e turned out
narciso (d1f714) — 6/5/2017 @ 9:10 pmThanks for your permission. My comment was in good faith, and clearly spot on. As usual, you guys practice projection. You’re outraged and citing rules while you guys behave with no respect.
Dustin (ba94b2) — 6/5/2017 @ 9:13 pm270. Oh, there’s stronger:
http://www.mechon-mamre.org/p/pt/pt0520.htm
Now Mohammed took things like that, and the strong interdictions against idol worship, and ran with it, applying it, and the penalties, to all people and all times, and he borrowed from Christniaty the idea that the only real sin was lack of belief.
But what the terrorists did in London was never heard of except from what can be called Islamic heresies, and deviant Christians massacred people too, even if you can’t find Scriptural support for it. They didn’t really need scriptural support for the St. Bartholomew’s Day massacre
Sammy Finkelman (f46c1b) — 6/5/2017 @ 9:19 pmkishnevi (7bc26d) — 6/5/2017 @ 7:02 pm, the Old Testament doesn’t contain commandments for Christians unless they’re affirmed by Christ. And by that I don’t just mean the Gospels but in the New Testament. The seven noahide laws are incorporated into the New Testament.
Steve57 (0b1dac) — 6/5/2017 @ 9:21 pm@294. Steve57, save your preaching, son. I went to a private Christian school all through grade school and high school (except for about one year). That included Bible study class and a sermon, every single day. So I know Christianity.
Tillman (a95660) — 6/5/2017 @ 9:22 pmThat verse is how Christians justified killing witches (e.g., in Salem), in case you don’t know.
But that’s how too many Christians operate: they believe what’s expedient for their best interest and ignore the rest.
Steve,
You are right. They know you are right. But they hate us more than they hate terrorists. So they don’t care that you are right.
NJRob (2ccb82) — 6/5/2017 @ 9:44 pmThere are no principles – there is vast confusion – among Christians as to which Biblical verses in the Hebrew Bible they should pay attention to, and to what extent.
Sammy Finkelman (f46c1b) — 6/5/2017 @ 9:48 pmYikes, some idiot is quoting the OT to project Christian teaching?
What a moron.
Must have a graduate degree from a good skool….
Funny enuff Christianity can be summed up love your neighbor …… and that is that. Golden rule.
That is what is great about it. Simple.
Blah (44eaa0) — 6/5/2017 @ 9:57 pm303. Steve57 (0b1dac) — 6/5/2017 @ 9:04 pm replyin to Dustin:
True, no Moslem should be expected to take someone like Angela Merkel or Pope Francis or whoever as a religious authority on Islam, but if they said Anwar al Awlaki and clerics who support ISIS are right, (in their understanding of Islam) that would an admission against interest, and that maybe could be paid attention to by some people.
Of course you’re going even further even, in some respects, than ISIS does. Can you find any Islamic cleric who argues the same thing you do?
By the way, I think part of the problem is that they are relying on the wrong Moslem clerics to argue against terorism.
Sammy Finkelman (f46c1b) — 6/5/2017 @ 10:02 pmI’ll remember that the next time a Christian brings up the 10 commandments and complains that they’re not prominently displayed in front of every courthouse in America. So I should just explain, “We don’t have to follow that law anymore, that’s the OT. You’re a moron.”
See, it doesn’t happen that way. Christians use what they want, and ignore the rest (all the while claiming to have their values from the Bible, when it’s only selective values at best.
What’s scary is, I’ve heard Christians claim that anyone who isn’t a Christian is really a witch. So if you couple that with the “Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live” dictum, and they take that to heart so to speak, you’ve got a real radical on your hands. It doesn’t happen currently, but it could in the future under the right circumstances.
Tillman (a95660) — 6/6/2017 @ 8:43 amSure you have Tillman. Sure you have. Tell me another one.
NJRob (7f4bec) — 6/6/2017 @ 8:48 am“What’s scary is, I’ve heard Christians claim that anyone who isn’t a Christian is really a witch. So if you couple that with the “Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live” dictum, and they take that to heart so to speak, you’ve got a real radical on your hands. It doesn’t happen currently, but it could in the future under the right circumstances.”
Pull the other one… and then do some research into the behavior of and written/spoken word by prominent leftwingers just since November 8, 2016.
Ninny.
Colonel Haiku (6dd99d) — 6/6/2017 @ 8:57 amTillman, if you had actually read the Bible, instead of cherry-picked verses to suit whatever purpose you have at hand, you’d know that among the Israelites, capital punishment couldn’t be meted out by just anyone. Only a judge could impose capital punishment. A random citizen couldn’t just kill a woman that he claimed was a witch.
Chuck Bartowski (bc1c71) — 6/6/2017 @ 9:00 amSteve57, forget about it. They will not listen. NJRob is right, they hate us more than the terrorists. They can sit and watch moslem terrorists kill and maim the world over but they won’t learn.
Rev.Hoagie® (630eca) — 6/6/2017 @ 9:18 amRev,
that’s because they think terrorism is just something that happens to other people, it doesn’t affect their world. Even after 9/11 when I could see the smoke rising as the towers were burning from my home, people still think that terrorism is just a random event, like being hit by a bolt of lightning. So, just like that bolt of lightning, they don’t try and prevent it. Because you cannot stop nature and it won’t affect them in the end.
But we, we vote for people who directly affect policy in ways they don’t like. True, what we vote for never comes to fruition and DC works directly to keep the machine ever running, but we still try. We are also uncouth in their opinion, so we make them look bad. And by looking bad it affects their personal standing in the world. That’s what upsets them. It’s an emotional act.
You cannot ever reason someone out of an opinion they never used reason to reach in the first place. It’s personal.
NJRob (7f4bec) — 6/6/2017 @ 10:58 amThey get that impression from Allah. The five pillars are either not mentioned at all in the Quran or so briefly touched upon that while you might know you’re supposed to do something you wouldn’t know exactly how to do it.
Find me the Shahada in the Quran. You can look until your brains fall out, if they already haven’t Dustin. It isn’t there.
To learn about the five pillars you have to turn to the ahadith.
Allah spends all his time talking about the sixth pillar of Islam; Jihad.
Surah 2:216
Surah 4:89
This specifically refers to apostates. The Quran says that the Muslims are to wage jihad just as ruthlessly against apostates and hypocrites as they are to wage jihad against the unbelievers. This is why the leader of IS chose Abu Bakr al Baghdadi as his nom de guerre. The first of the “rightly guided caliphs” was Abu Bakr. His first task was to launch the wars of apostasy as many tribes had only became Muslim because they didn’t want Muhammad to kill them. When Muhammad died they thought it was their chance to break away. Both Abu Bakrs see their initial task in restoring the caliphate as forcing apostates and hypocrites back into the ummah or purging them.
Allah provides his own rules for how to interpret the Quran. If there is any conflict between an earlier verse and a later verse, the later verse replaces the earlier verse. This is the doctine of abrogation.
Surah 2:106
Surah 16:101 reemphasizes the doctrine of abrogation.
It is quite clear in the ahadith collections that the final major verse (there may be one after it, but it doesn’t contain anything important) that Muhammad delivered was Baraa. This is another name for At Tawbah, Surah 9, nicknamed in English as “The Sword Verse.” These are Muhammad’s final marching orders to the ummah. If any earlier verse conflicts with a verse in Surah 9, Surah 9 abrogates the earlier verse.
Surah 9:14
The hands of the Muslims are Allah’s means of punishing unbelievers in this world.
Surah 9:28-33
At Tabari’s Sirah, or biography, of Muhammad makes it quite clear what is going on from a historical perspective. Which is why I cited the entire passage and not just verse 9:29 which I bolded. Al-Masjid al-Haram (Mosque is simply the Anglicization of Masjid which means “a place of prostration” and is what the pagans called their temples of idolatrous worship which the Muslims simply adopted wholesale, al-Haram means killing was forbidden within the temple precincts) is now the Kaaba in Mecca. Muhammad delivered a verse which said the polytheists could no longer approach it. This worried the Meccans as selling things to the pilgrims was largely how they made their living. Muhammad said don’t worry, Allah will enrich you. How? The Muslims would attack the Christians and Jews. Muhammad reasoned they’d gladly pay the protection money or jizya to make the Muslims stop. Either that or they’d convert to Islam and pay the Zakat,
The jizya is much more onerous than zakat. Until the Ottomans abolished the jizya under pressure from the British and French as the price for their help against the Russians in the Crimean War parents often had to sell their children into slavery to pay it. It was a cruel choice, but if the parents didn’t pay the jizya they’d be branded Kuffar Harbi (unbelievers at war with Islam) and the whole family could be killed. Often Muslim rulers forbade the dhimmis from converting because the jizya was so much more lucrative than zakat, but at this early stage the choice was left to the conquered Ahl al Khutub (the people of the book). In any case, the money would start rolling in. It was essentially an extortion racket with divine approval.
At this point some of the Muslims would have wondered why they should attack “the people of the book,” as they were supposed to be related to the Muslims in faith. The rest of the passage makes it clear; because of their beliefs. And that they openly express their beliefs. This fits into the category of war as far as Islam is concerned. Muslims need to wage war against the unbelievers to shut them up and make Islam superior over all other religions.
And as at-Tabari’s biography (and it must be remembered that the Sirah literature is integral to the Sunnah that all Sunnis adhere to) Muhammad then attacked the Romans. The Romans weren’t attacking them. This is offensive Jihad; there was nothing defensive about it as many deceptive Islamic apologists would trick you into believing is the only approved type of Jihad. These apologists are simply confident you’ll take their word and won’t look at their own sources. Which expose them as liars. But I digress.
This is why the Muslims killed the editorial staff of Charlie Hebdo. It’s why the Mullahs issued a death fatwa against Salman Rushdie, which they reiterated in 2015 is “as fresh as ever.” Lars Vilks lives under a perpetual death threat. Soon the other dhimmis will absorb the lesson and shut up.
Dustin, you and kishnevi certainly have absorbed the lesson. You’re afraid to tell the truth about what’s in the Quran lest you rile the Muslims. Although you pretend you’re merely being “smart.” But the Muslims get the message loud and clear; hence the “Strong horse, weak horse” proverb. There’s another proverb; “To see who rules you, see who you can’t criticize.”
And here you perverting Islam in order to defend it. It isn’t IS or AQ doing it; long before those groups ever came along it has been an established principle of exegesis that whatever a scripture, any scripture, spends a great deal of time discussing is important to the religion that depends upon it. The Quran does not spend much if any time discussing the five pillars. That is wishcasting on your part. It spends most of its time discussing Allah’s enmity against unbelievers, who good Muslims must share that enmity, and express it through jihad and forced conversion or violent subjugation of the unbelievers.
Surah 9:74
How are the hypocrites and unbelievers to suffer a painful punishment in this world? Refer back to 9:14. At the hands of the Muslims.
Surah 9:111
Jihad is the “great attainment.” How much clearer can Allah be. It is for the purpose of Jihad that Allah has “purchased from the believers their lives and their properties [in exchange] for that they will have Paradise.” How? Killing and being killed while fighting in the cause of Allah. Go back to the passage I quoted in its entirety; 9:28-33. The Muslims are to fight in Allah’s way to establish Islam “over all religion, although they who associate others with Allah dislike it” merely because Allah is offended by the beliefs of others.
Of course, the Islamic State doesn’t just get the quit reasonable (form a theological perspective) that Jihad is a religious obligation only from the great deal of time Allah spends on it in the Quran to the exclusion of the other five pillars. Muhammad also tells them the same thing in the ahadith. Every single one of the six core ahadith collections; Sahih al Bukhari, Sahih Muslim, Sunan ibn Nasai, Jamiat Tirmidhi, Sunan abu Dawud, and Sunan ibn Majah (the Maliki school of Islamic jurisprudence uses Muwatta Malik instead of ibn Majah but what I’m going to say still applies) has books or volumes on Jihad. They also have books or volumes on military expeditions led by the prophet. Some of the collections will combine the discussion of both subjects.
For a supposed religion of peace that’s a lot of talk about violence, doncha think?
Since I’ve already wrote a book I’m not going to quote at length. Just a couple of ahadith.
Sunan Ibn Majah – The Chapters on Jihad
This isn’t the highest grade of hadith but Hasan means “good” and it still is good enough to be used in Islamic jurisprudence.
Sahih al-Bukhari – Book of Fighting for the Cause of Allah (Jihaad) – (1) Chapter: The superiority of Jihad
All of the ahadith in the two Sahihs are, obviously, Sahih. This is the highest grade of hadith; it means genuine. Consequently I’m not going to cite the administrative notes, so to speak. For that reason and because different publishers have different numbering schemes, and even the same publisher will assign a different number scheme when they publish a newer version. So I’m just going to tell you what chapter you can find it in.
Sahih al-Bukhari – Book of Fighting for the Cause of Allah (Jihaad) – (2)
Chapter: Striving with both, life and property
Sahih al-Bukhari – Book of Fighting for the Cause of Allah (Jihaad) – (31) Chapter: The Statement of Allah Aza wa’jal: “Not equal are those of the believers who sit (at home),…”
Muhammad had just delivered a verse declaring the Mujahid superior to Muslims who sit at home. Ibn Um-Maktum heard it and cried out, “Oh prophet of Allah, what are your orders for me?” So Allah “sent down” (or if you’re realistic Muhammad made up on the fly, which happened a lot when others pointed out that his “revelations” often raised more questions than answers) this verse to clear things up.
Muslim apologists when forced to acknowledge the reality of Jihad and the great emphasis the Quran and core texts of Islam place on it will try and pretend that Jihad was just for a particular time, place and against specific peoples. In other words, that these commands are similar to Old Testament commands which are given to specific individuals to carry out, such as Joshua. That just as Joshua’s mandate was limited to within the borders of Israel, these exhortations were limited to a specific geographic location. That only specific groups of people are targeted even though in the Old Testament those people are named while in the Quran they are not. And that those commands were only valid for a specific time.
None of this is of course true.
Sahih Muslim – The Book on Government – 53) Chapter: The words of the prophet saws: “A Group of my Ummah will continue to Prevail on the basis of the Truth, and They will not be Harmed by those who oppose them.”
The Hour, of course, is judgement day. And a portion of the Muslims will continue to wage Jihad right up until them.
How many centuries does it take for you to take a lesson, Dustin? It didn’t take Thomas Jefferson centuries, as we learn from his report to Congress in 1785 following his meeting with Tripoli’s envoy to London and his quick action when he was elected President;
Duty, Dustin. It’s a religious duty or obligation to wage Jihad. Nothing has changed since 1785, or for that matter 685. IS isn’t making anything up. This is nothing new. Muslims have considered Jihad to be a religious obligation for 1200 years (not I don’t say 1400, for a reason) although unlike the other six pillars of Islam Jihad is a communal obligation and not an individual one. I realize the temptation to just wish it away, but that has never worked in all of human history.
Of course, your fantasy version of Islam is the “sane interpretation” of Islam. If you have Stockholm syndrome.
Steve57 (0b1dac) — 6/6/2017 @ 11:09 amSteve57 (0b1dac) — 6/6/2017 @ 11:09 am
Wait a second. What you are doing now is reforming Islam. Moslems don’t, and can’t. rely on the Koran, because there’s not enough material in it to tell them what to do. They rely on opinions of people who are supposed to be religious scholars – the Shiites have a very formal system, and hierarchy (and the rulers of Iran are nowehere near the top, nor are the top ayatoillahs supposed to exercise secular power, and the Sunnis less so, and they are mainly divided into four schools (and maybe it could be that most or all of the four are problematical.)
I read about the 5 pillars of Islam long ago, before or from sources that predate the islamic based terrorism of the last 35 years. What the five pillars are, are the minimum requirments for converts. Early Moslem rulers wanted to make conversion easy or at least possible.
What should concern us is what is, or has been historically, taught, not a novel doctrine that someone can come up with. That would be nothing more than
an Islamic heresy. And again we really shouldn’t be saying that is the proper way to read the Koran, unless we’re absolutely bonkers. Especially since it is not true. The worst of it (killing enemy civilians in peaceful settings – not in a battlefield – at random) was written in Berlin in 1914 by Max von Oppenheim and maybe can be found in the archives there in the original German.
Now there are many state supported imams who want to leave room for murder, so it is not always thoroughly defeated, but that doesn’t go so far. They just want to leave room for jihad called by a ruler.
Sammy Finkelman (6f9f42) — 6/6/2017 @ 11:26 amHere is something I ran across that discusses Christianity relying on something in the Bible to justify mass killing:
http://www.thelehrhaus.com/scholarship/2017/5/29/how-to-choose-a-humash
Sammy Finkelman (6f9f42) — 6/6/2017 @ 11:28 amI have no problem with your last paragraph. But it’s important to draw a bright clear line between what a religion teaches and what people who claim to be adherents do. I would have hated to have been one of those Salem witch burners when they met Christ upon their deaths.
And your formulation was still obnoxious.
Steve57 (0b1dac) — 6/6/2017 @ 11:30 amI’ll bet you were voted “Most likely to miss the point” in high school, Sammeh.
Of course there’s not enough material in the Quran to tell Muslims how to perform the five pillars, or as I more realistically put it the other six pillars. That’s because they weren’t as important to Allah.
Again, I’m not reforming anything. I’m letting scripture speak for itself. And there is plenty material in there for Muslims to learn how to perform the sixth pillar. Jihad. for instance.
Surah 9:119-123
The point is that it’s long been a principle of exegesis that whatever subject a scripture concentrates on to the exclusion or minimization of other subjects is the most important.
As far as the Quran is concerned that subject is Jihad. Unlike the other six pillars you’ll find all the detail you need to perform Jihad in the Quran.
Steve57 (0b1dac) — 6/6/2017 @ 11:49 amSteve57 (0b1dac) — 6/6/2017 @ 11:49 am
That’s the reformation.
Except it’s not speaking for itself, because everything theer has a context.
They don’t even have jihad. Jihad requires a caliph. A legitimate caliph, too.
90% of this seems to be Mohammed telling people to listen to him. Not instructions for what to do when he is dead.
Sammy Finkelman (6f9f42) — 6/6/2017 @ 11:55 amUhh, earth to Sammeh @ 6/6/2017 @ 11:55 am. I don’t know what you’re talking about but that quote of mine in your comment? Yeah, I’m talking about the Quran. I’ve been talking about the letting the Quran speak for itself.
And it’s Allah talking in the Quran, not Muhammad.
Steve57 (0b1dac) — 6/7/2017 @ 6:55 amMore news,out of toronto
narciso (c99e1e) — 6/7/2017 @ 7:00 amUnless your point is that 99% of Muslims don’t do what the Koran says, I missed it too.
nk (9651fb) — 6/7/2017 @ 7:16 am326, Golf Club incident?
urbanleftbehind (5eecdb) — 6/7/2017 @ 7:21 amMaybe you meant Iran?
http://www.cnn.com/2017/06/07/middleeast/iran-parliament-shooting/
(Interestingly, when I tried Google, the only reports it showed on this were from Spanish language media. This CNN link was from off Facebook’s “trending” feed.
kishnevi (0de685) — 6/7/2017 @ 7:39 amSteve, your problem is that you’re not being skeptical enough of your sources.
You are depending on sources whose self interest was served by promoting the idea that 1)only the Quran and Hadith are legitimate sources of authority 2) that the Quran and Hadith places authority in the hands of some, and only some, interpreters and 3)they happen to be one of the authorized interpreters. Your sources are 1)clerics who were interested in justifying their own power and 2) Western academics who were content to accept their claims at face value.
When a bureaucrat claims powers to tell you what to do, do you automatically accept that claim?
kishnevi (0de685) — 6/7/2017 @ 7:47 amSame principle applies.
What year did the Mohammedans conquer Persia?
Colonel Haiku (b6b19d) — 6/7/2017 @ 7:54 amIn what year?
Colonel Haiku (b6b19d) — 6/7/2017 @ 7:55 amI leave it to the Sunnis to decide what are the legitimate sources of authority in Sunni Islam. And they’ve decided that the only legitimate sources of authority are the Quran and Sunnah.
What else should I be using? Marvel comics? A ouija board? The Onion? I suppose you have some sort of Finelman-esque SOOPER Serkrit source of religious authority that not even the Sunnis have ever heard of.
That’ll be persuasive.
Steve57 (0b1dac) — 6/7/2017 @ 4:23 pmBut thanks for giving your opinion on sticking to the facts, kishnevi. Noted: you find it too confining, as it leaves little room for creativity.
Steve57 (0b1dac) — 6/7/2017 @ 4:26 pmIs that a trick question, coronello? Because you can enter that question into a search window and come up with the answer in just as few seconds as I can.
Steve57 (0b1dac) — 6/7/2017 @ 4:30 pmIt was a rhetorival question i think the saasanids held out longer than say North africa
narciso (d1f714) — 6/7/2017 @ 4:41 pmOh, I love your use of the term “Mohammedans”, Colonel. Moslems hate when we do that. It indicates we actually understand they follow mohammad not Allah.
Rev.Hoagie® (630eca) — 6/7/2017 @ 4:54 pmAnd how about you Rev, do you follow Jesus or God?
Spartacvs (2db708) — 6/7/2017 @ 4:59 pmMuch of the early accounts of the Persian/ Islamist clash came from gibbon who wasn’t the most accurate chronicler.
narciso (d1f714) — 6/7/2017 @ 5:01 pm