Patterico's Pontifications


Source: Flynn to Take the Fifth

Filed under: General — Patterico @ 7:34 am

It’s based on an anonymous source, so take it for what it’s worth, which may be nothing:

Former National Security Adviser Michael Flynn will invoke his Fifth Amendment protection against self-incrimination on Monday as he notifies the Senate Intelligence committee that he will not comply with a subpoena seeking documents.

That’s according to a person with direct knowledge of the matter. The person spoke on condition of anonymity to discuss the private interactions between Flynn and the committee.

Everyone who said it was no big deal when Lois Lerner took the Fifth will make a big thing out of this.

And everyone who made a big thing out of Lois Lerner doing it will say this is no big deal.

Taking the Fifth does not make a person guilty. In the criminal context it means nothing. In a civil context, or the context of testifying before Congress, one can draw an adverse inference. But in a situation like this one (or with Lerner) where any competent lawyer would advise you to take it, it makes little sense to read too much into it.

Maybe Flynn can make a big speech about how he didn’t do anything wrong and then take the Fifth. After Lerner’s stunt along those lines, there is precedent for it.

[Cross-posted at The Jury Talks Back.]

157 Responses to “Source: Flynn to Take the Fifth”

  1. Does anyone bother with actual statements from say the atty representing the client?

    narciso (d1f714)

  2. One question is: Does Michael Flynn want immunity, and does anyone want to give it to him? here have been contradictory statements or reports about whether or not Mike Flynn wanted immuniy.

    Sammy Finkelman (2cb3c3)

  3. Waiting for the MSM to shriek that he’s just as guilty as Lois Lerner and Hillary’s IT staff…..oh wait.

    harkin (9803a7)

  4. see this is what happens when you hire these top brass losers

    happyfeet (a037ad)

  5. Mike Flynn didn’t even want to produce documents.

    Disgraced ex-National Security Adviser Mike Flynn appears headed for a showdown with the Senate over its demand for records of his relationship with Russian officials.

    Sen. Richard Burr (R-NC), chairman of the Senate Intelligence Committee, told reporters Thursday that Flynn’s lawyers “said he would not honor the subpoena, and that’s not a surprise to the committee.”

    Burr later walked back those remarks, saying he “may have been premature.”

    “There may be a day or two left” for Flynn to comply, Burr said.

    Sammy Finkelman (2cb3c3)

  6. I thought it was a big deal when Lerner did it and the same applies to Flynn.

    Colonel Haiku (0225f2)

  7. these days lately, they’ve been so pretty this spring, with fresh greens and blossoms abounding who wants to spend time pulling together documents for a bunch of sleazy congress bozos

    happyfeet (a037ad)


    “This was a five-alarm fire from early on,” one former Obama administration official said, “the way the Russians were talking about him.” Another former administration official said Flynn was viewed as a potential national security problem.

    The conversations picked up by US intelligence officials indicated the Russians regarded Flynn as an ally, sources said. That relationship developed throughout 2016, months before Flynn was caught on an intercepted call in December speaking with Russia’s ambassador in Washington, Sergey Kislyak. That call, and Flynn’s changing story about it, ultimately led to his firing as Trump’s first national security adviser.”

    Sammy Finkelman (2cb3c3)

  9. They have nothing on him vis-a-vis phone conversations with the Russians and if he F-ed up on the money angle re:Turks he needs to come clean.

    Colonel Haiku (0225f2)

  10. They know the money that Mike Flynn got. They know, maybe, but perhaps only through foreign intelligence or FISA warrants, that Russian officials hoped Mike Flynn would help them.

    What they may not know is if he was he taking instructions from them.

    Neither would investigators know early on if he was taking instructions from Turkey, but he may have postponed the fall of Raqqa, the capital of ISIS, for two or three months.

    Flynn got paid by a Turkish businessman who is spporter of Erdogan. The businessman said none of he oney he gave Flynn came form the government, but he wa sin the habit of giving money to Erdogan, not taking it, and the lobbying work Flynn did seemed to be something the government of Tirkey would be interested in notthe businessman. Flynn was also worried about being dropped and sought to prove his usefulness)

    Sammy Finkelman (2cb3c3)

  11. There are differences between Flynn and Lerner.

    In Lerner’s case it is unlikely that any criminal activity on her part was unrelated to the IRS actions towards the Teas.

    In Flynn’s case (and several others) it is quite possible that he was engaged in illegal behavior wrt the Russians without it reflecting on illegalities by Trump or his campaign.

    So it is not necessarily hypocritical to think ill of Lerner taking the 5th while defending Flynn’s use of the same protection.

    Kevin M (25bbee)

  12. Sherman Adams took gifts from people who wanted access to Ike. Does not mean Ike was a crook.

    Bobby Baker took bribes for access and provided hookers to Congressmen to get votes for LBJ. Does not mean that LBJ was a crook. Oh, wait, yes it does.

    Kevin M (25bbee)

  13. Jack Dunphy says to keep this in mind… “It took a few years of police work to turn me into a discerning consumer of news. My family had subscribed to the Los Angeles Times as I grew up, a practice I continued as I went off to college and later joined the Los Angeles Police Department. The paper’s left-of-center leanings didn’t much concern me at the time as I, after coming of age in the days of Watergate and President Nixon’s downfall, and after being indoctrinated at a Jesuit high school and in college, shared many of these same leanings.

    Then I became a cop, a job that offered an unequaled view of the many ways liberal politicians infantilize and enfeeble the very people they purport to help. It was on this Road to Damascus journey that I also learned to read and watch the news with a critical eye. I was working in South Central L.A. in a time of escalating gang violence, and even as it reached horrific levels it was largely ignored by the Los Angeles Times and other local media. And when crime was covered, it was most often in a way that made the police seem at least as responsible as the criminals for what ailed the city.


    This was especially so in the Los Angeles Times, whose reporters and editors – even its editorial cartoonist – seemed to harbor a grudge against the police in general, the LAPD in particular, and police chief Daryl Gates most of all. I found that as I read the Times’s stories about the LAPD, the facts were invariably presented in a light that was more favorable to police critics than the police themselves. If any nuance was implied, the benefit of the doubt was always given to the crooks, never to the cops. This was most obvious to me when I read stories about incidents in which I had been involved. I once watched a Times reporter working through the crowd that had gathered after a racially charged incident in South Central L.A. Though I was within earshot as she interviewed people who expressed reasonable opinions on what had happened, when the story appeared the next day it was the loudest, most obnoxious, and most ignorant voice in the crowd who was quoted. The story itself wasn’t false, or “fake news” in today’s parlance, but it was incomplete, presenting only one version of events when others had been given to the reporter. This could only have been by design.

    It has been with this experience in mind that I have read newspapers and watched television news ever since. In the frothing media maelstrom that now surrounds the Trump administration, it is important to maintain a certain level of skepticism. A reader taking in a story about the president in any major newspaper would be wise to imagine a prologue at the outset, one that goes something like this:

    The story you are about to read was written and edited by people who a) voted for Hillary Clinton, b) think Donald Trump is a menace, and c) are appalled that 63 million of their fellow citizens – all those ignorant rustics out there in the howling wilderness between Beverly Hills and the Hudson River – could have so abased themselves as to choose Mr. Trump over Mrs. Clinton. Furthermore, these same reporters and editors go about their daily lives with no contact with anyone who might have a different opinion, and if they were to encounter one by accident they would run shrieking from the room. Every one of these people hope to be their own era’s Bob Woodward or Carl Bernstein and be remembered as the journalist who saved America and the world from Donald Trump. And finally, these aspiring Woodwards and Bernsteins have ready access to what seems to be an endless supply of aspiring Deep Throats, anonymous “administration sources” equally desirous of seeing President Trump impeached, jailed, or otherwise rendered impotent.
    Which brings us to the latest (at least as of this writing) media revelation of something certain to doom the Trump presidency—the “Comey memo.” Perhaps like you, I first heard of the memo on radio and television, where it was breathlessly described as “devastating” and “extremely serious” and in other similarly grave terms. “The president obstructed justice,” we were told. “This may finish him.”

    Colonel Haiku (0225f2)

  14. Greetings:

    This just in from my “We are men and we do things in a manly way.” file:

    “And I have to tell you,” Wallace commented, “you looked pretty good while you were doing it – frankly, more comfortable than the President or Commerce Secretary Ross. Had you been practicing, sir?”

    Tillerson responded: “Well, I hadn’t been practicing, Chris, but it was not my first sword dance.”

    11B40 (6abb5c)

  15. Andy McCarthy has the nub of it:

    After months of investigation, congressional hearings, and a major report released by the FBI, CIA and NSA, there is no publicly known evidence of a concerted effort between Trump associates and Russian operatives to influence the election. Yet, Trump continues to act and obsess like a guilty person. My guess is that he is sure there is nothing to the Trump-Russia suspicions, he is angry over the way the narrative is hurting his presidency, and an incorrigible character flaw induces him to lash out in childish ways.

    My guess matches his exactly.

    In the 1990s, McCarthy and Comey were fellow Assistant U.S. Attorneys in the Southern District of New York, where McCarthy famously convicted the Blind Sheik for the first World Trade Center bombing. Like many others in FBI and DoJ who genuinely like and respect Jim Comey, McCarthy views Comey as having gone off the rails in the Clinton email matter. I’m checking for his stuff (at NR and PJ Media, maybe elsewhere too) twice a day lately, because I think he’s a very shrewd and well-informed — if perplexed, like the rest of us — observer of this whole mess.

    Despite the infrequency with which they comment here, I know for a certain fact from my day-to-day life that there indeed still are everyday citizens with progressive, Democrat-inclined views which they hold in the very best of objective and subjective good faith; I have many such in my immediate and extended family, for instance. I think they’re mistaken in these politics, usually well-meaning but naive. We nevertheless can debate things rationally and occasionally affect one another’s opinions at least at the margins. Let’s call these the “good-faith Dems,” and stipulate that the set excludes by definition all Dem officeholders and political operatives, everyone in the MSM, half the blogosphere, etc.

    Among such good-faith Dems is a much smaller subset — the number of good-faith Democrats who could genuinely entertain the idea, the concept, that Hillary & Bill Clinton are serial RICO conspirators and racketeers. Not just “slightly bent politicians,” not just “unintentionally corrupted by the lure of power and money they see others enjoying,” but just damned criminals in the everyday, garden-variety, not-Tony Soprano-but-Carlo Gambino sense. Many good-faith Dems might be willing to admit, and even endorse the idea that, Hillary was a flawed candidate with honesty and ethics problems. But almost none of them can grok the notion that she and Bill are, and have for the last 20 years been, engaged in a constant, daily routine of obstruction of justice, influence peddling for favors and money, and the tons of felonies (wire fraud, mail fraud, false disclosures) that attend such crimes.

    Which is to say, even most good-faith Dems have a blind spot of which they are entirely unaware. And that explains why it seemed ridiculous! over-the-top! outrageous! when Trump ralliers shouted “Lock her up! Lock her up!”

    There are obvious analogs to those folks among Trump defenders now, however — people who can’t see their own blind spots when it comes to their evaluation of President Trump. Impeachment talk seems to them ridiculous! over-the-top! outrageous! To me it sounds unjustified and way pre-mature.

    In watching and evaluating the current controversies confronting Trump, everyone who stands in opposition to the Dems — including practically everyone who would self-identify as conservative or free-market or libertarian or Republican in the biggest of big-tent senses — ought try to be aware of their own blind spots, or at least, of the possibility of such blind spots, when we’re discussing Trump and this controversy in particular.

    It still strikes me as wildly improbable that before the election, Trump did anything relating to the Russians that could possibly have been a legitimately impeachable offense now. I am genuinely concerned, however, that in his post-election reactions to the Dems’ overtly political efforts to promote the Russian interference meme — which of course the Dem politicians & opinion leaders intend to undercut Trump’s political credibility and effectiveness, and to distract from their own scandals — he has given them so many individual data points that are consistent with the Dems’ wild speculations about a cover-up. Because he can’t keep his mouth shut, he conceivably could have blundered, unintentionally but clumsily, into something impeachable.

    I think he’s still entitled, for now, to the benefit of the doubt on anything actually having to do with the Russians. I’m working hard to keep an open mind, and to fix any blind spots I might have, though, when evaluating his post-election conduct.

    And I’m genuinely rooting for him to achieve some self-discipline, after which he needs to begin disciplining his staff.

    Beldar (fa637a)

  16. Of course Rex Tillerson can Sword Dance. I’m quite sure he can also dance the Texas two-step, waltz, schottische, Cotton-Eyed-Joe, and probably polka, since all of these were common at the Longhorn Band parties of the 1970s. He was an LHB percussion section leader in the early 1970s — I just missed knowing him, he graduated the month before I started at UT — so he’s an accomplished musician and the man’s got rhythm. I predict there will be more such video of Sec. Tillerson in the future!

    Beldar (fa637a)

  17. derangement comes in Hebrew and Spanish as I pointed out before

    narciso (d1f714)

  18. Kevin M (25bbee) — 5/22/2017 @ 8:26 am

    You may want to revise that idea. Or at least rewrite it. You seem to be saying that you’re fine with Flynn’s taking the Fifth because he might have committed illegal actions in matters not related to the Russia connection. Somehow I don’t think that’s what you mean.

    kishnevi (bb03e6)

  19. Well said, Colonel Haiku 6.

    DRJ (15874d)

  20. And apparently he just blurted out another unasked and inappropriate denial while standing next to Bibi. Someone from the press shouted a question, to which Bibi responded that the intelligence-sharing relationship between the U.S. and Israel is just fine. That was diplomatic, overtly helpful to Trump, if he could just not step on it. But Trump did, of course, volunteering:

    I never mentioned the word or the name ‘Israel’ — never mentioned it, during that conversation [turns to nod at Bibi, as if re-assuring him], during that conversation. Then we’re all set again here. So you had another story wrong. Never mentioned it.

    Here he’s denying something that no one has accused him of. He thinks he’s helping himself somehow, but he’s not, and he’s insulting the intelligence (so to speak) of the Israelis, probably rubbing salt in a still-raw wound that Bibi is trying to bandage up for him.

    Beldar (fa637a)

  21. Excellent comment, Beldar 15. I agree with everything you said.

    DRJ (15874d)

  22. actually they had accused him of leaking the source of that info, which came from Jordan, can we stipulate certain facts,

    narciso (d1f714)

  23. Ditto comment 20. Trump confirms earlier reports when does things like this.

    Trump is so used to talking to the press for the purpose of promoting himself that he fails to understand how things have changed in his relationship with the press as President. I don’t think he can change. It’s too ingrained. He wants attention more than he wants to master the art of being President.

    DRJ (15874d)

  24. one hopes that the circumstances change with Gorsuch:

    narciso (d1f714)

  25. Greetings, Beldar: ( @ 16 (fa637a) — 5/22/2017 @ 8:56 am )

    I spent a good bit of ’68 working for my “Uncle” up around MIneral Wells, and, in spite of having grown up in the Bronx, that experience convinced me that Texas would have been my second choice.

    11B40 (6abb5c)

  26. Thanks, DRJ.

    Re Flynn: Taking the Fifth immunizes you from self-incrimination in a criminal prosecution. It doesn’t immunize you from bad inferences in the court of public opinion. That includes the failure to testify in one’s own behalf at trial. Scooter Libby, for example, declined to take the stand in his own defense, despite having a spotless record (no prior impeachment opportunities), and despite being by every account a brilliant and articulate and persuasive, even compelling, advocate. I drew a bad inference from his failure to testify.

    In Flynn’s case, however, at this stage any lawyer would certainly instruct him to circle the wagons and put the government through all its paces. I’m not going to draw any inferences regarding Flynn’s announcing an intention to take the Fifth. It’s equally as consistent with his innocence as his guilt right now. Ask me again if he’s indicted, tried, and declines to take the stand then, and I’ll give you one answer as to what the jurors are properly permitted to infer, and another as to what those of us in the court of public opinion might want to infer.

    Beldar (fa637a)

  27. My guess is that he is sure there is nothing to the Trump-Russia suspicions, he is angry over the way the narrative is hurting his presidency, and an incorrigible character flaw induces him to lash out in childish ways.

    I also agree with that. But I think it’s probable that Trump was not aware of most of the connections his associates and staff had with Russia and Russian proxies, and that he is afraid they may not yet have come completely clean to him on the subject. (That includes Jared.)

    kishnevi (bb03e6)

  28. Mineral Wells — yup, been there! Lots of family from the Weatherford area, too.

    Beldar (fa637a)

  29. president trump doesn’t need to change a bit

    happyfeet (a037ad)

  30. now lerner took the fifth, then attempted to destroy her server, well that subterfuge lasted till the statute of limitations lapsed

    narciso (d1f714)

  31. Mineral Wells is where Ric Locke was from

    i stopped and walked around the hotel there once, this was after he died

    that poor little town’s been rode hard and put up wet

    happyfeet (a037ad)

  32. I don’t recall there ever being any press reporting of Lerner being under an active FBI investigation, or press reports that grand jury subpoenas had been issued for records connected to businesses Lerner was involved with.

    That is all the distinction between the two circumstances that needs to be understood.

    Once someone is the focus/target of an open criminal investigation, there is no option from the standpoint of a criminal defense lawyer but to decline all invitations to make any public comment that could later be admitted by the prosecution as a statement of a party opponent.

    shipwreckedcrew (56b591)

  33. @ kish (#27): That’s an excellent point. One hopes that Trump is getting effective advice and coordination of internal efforts from both Priebus and McGahn; we just can’t tell about that, and shouldn’t be able to, because if they are being effective it should all be behind the scenes under the tightest internal security. There are questions that ought to be asked and steps that ought to be taken and investigation that ought to be completed entirely within the tiny circle of attorney-client and executive privilege — but they’re in a metaphorical minefield where a misstep, an unwise move, and even a failure to move can all explode another mine, perhaps setting off a chain reaction.

    Jim Baker ain’t the only guy that smart and that deft, but there aren’t very many more of his caliber. Trump needs someone that good.

    Beldar (fa637a)

  34. no oddly there was no investigation of that, peculiar isn’t it, it’s like some have noblesse oblige to commit any offense against the people,

    narciso (d1f714)

  35. There are differences between Flynn and Lerner.

    Sure, Lerner was a victim. Flynn, not so much.

    Spartacvs (15eea2)

  36. lerner and flynn are both corrupt sleazy federal pension piggy trash

    both of them are democrats

    and they were both sleazy and they both got caught but only one will have to pay the price

    happyfeet (a037ad)

  37. Did you read Beldar’s comment about blind spots, Spartacvs?

    DRJ (15874d)

  38. Federal immunity is mostly use immunity — it immunizes the witness’s testimony and its fruits so that it cannot be used against him, not the witness himself. It (use immunity) is a good thing only when a case against the witness cannot be made without the use of his “confession” and its fruits. Like what happened with Ollie North. So it’s not something a potential defendant really desires. He’d prefer to have his Fifth Amendment rights respected and left alone, or given a deal by the government to become a “friendly witness”.

    Transactional immunity is the good one. That immunizes the witness himself from prosecution for anything he may have done in the matter under investigation.

    nk (dbc370)

  39. Spartacus, Lerner was a victim? Your delusions are getting worse, I recommend checking with your pharmacist.

    SPQR (a3a747)

  40. And Tillerson is Exxon-Mobile, eh? (That’s the Canadian “eh”.) He probably knows oil country culture better than anyone not a native.

    nk (dbc370)

  41. Greetings, nk: ( @ 40 (dbc370) — 5/22/2017 @ 9:56 am )

    1) I think that’s Mobil without the (Canadian) “e”.

    2) And his “basso profundo” just oozes “gravitas”.

    11B40 (6abb5c)

  42. you see the problem if a special counsel isn’t called or indictments issued, it wasn’t an ethical breach, well delay and scott walker would dissent, there is a powerful clausewitzian element, politics by other means operating,

    narciso (d1f714)

  43. 41. Aha! There’s a Russian connection there.

    kishnevi (bb03e6)

  44. Felicitations, 11b40. The power of word association. Dance=>mobile.

    nk (dbc370)

  45. Tillerson is like the new Carl Jrs spokesactor.

    urbanleftbehind (5eecdb)

  46. tillerson is like baker, although the latter came from a legal background, he was grounded in the oil patches, domestic and international operations, which wasn’t entirely a good thing, as the Iraq card vs iran proved,

    narciso (d1f714)

  47. Please. You couldn’t ask for a better Secretary of State than Tillerson when it comes to dealing with Arabs.

    nk (dbc370)

  48. condi had an oily background too

    happyfeet (a037ad)

  49. Mr. Judge Alito makes a good point today about how sleazy third whirl and unprofessional failmerica’s sad joke of a Supreme Court has become

    “A precedent of this Court should not be treated like a disposable household item—say, a paper plate or napkin— to be used once and then tossed in the trash,” Alito wrote. “But that is what the Court does today in its decision regarding North Carolina’s 12th Congressional District: The Court junks a rule adopted in a prior, remarkably similar challenge to this very same congressional district.”

    maybe if they had less nasty harvardtrash and more real americans they wouldn’t be so tempted to treat the constitution like warm dirty toilet paper

    happyfeet (a037ad)

  50. an interesting perspective,

    it’s like the old joke about degaulle asking for a copy of the constitution, ‘mssr presidente, we don’t stock periodical literature,

    narciso (d1f714)

  51. You seem to be saying that you’re fine with Flynn’s taking the Fifth because he might have committed illegal actions in matters not related to the Russia connection. Somehow I don’t think that’s what you mean.

    You may want to re-read it. I’m saying that Flynn’s dealings with the Russians, IF illegal, might have been only Flynn doing illegal things. That he takes the 5th means NOTHING with respect to Trump.

    Kevin M (25bbee)

  52. As an engineering student at UT Austin, Sec. Tillerson was in LHB in 1974 when it performed at halftime of Super Bowl VIII. That was the same year Longhorn Band did a goodwill trip to perform in Peru, so perhaps that can be considered the start of his career as an international diplomat. You can see some LHB percussionists at 3:42 in this <a href="no-sound movie clip, but I wouldn’t be able to pick him out if he’s included. (I did wear a uniform just like that the following fall, though.)

    Beldar (fa637a)

  53. About blind spots: There is an illogical disconnect in the delegitimize Trump presidency faction, who simultaneously believe that Trump is the dumbest thing on the planet and yet is crafty and devious enough to have colluded with Russia in order to serve a bigger purpose than get elected. To be cunning at this level requires not just intelligence, but savvy and the ability read a room and the attending tics of those in it. All of this doesn’t speak to me of Trump, who seems to lack self awareness, who is self-consumed, thin skinned and entirely too focused on himself. I believe if there is anything to the Russia stuff, he indeed stumbled into it, ignorantly unaware of possible ramifications down the line. I don’t think he spends much time looking ahead and considering future, unintended consequences. Just get the deal done!

    Dana (023079)

  54. You take the Fifth because the government can’t be trusted. You take the Fifth because what the truth is, and what the government thinks the truth is, are two very different things. You take the Fifth because even if you didn’t do anything wrong your statements can be used as building blocks in dishonest, or malicious, or politically motivated prosecutions against you. You take the Fifth because if you answer questions truthfully the government may still decide you are lying and prosecute you for lying.

    Dana (023079)

  55. seriously, weren’t we through this meme with w, although cheney was the dark vizier, that covered the things that were too intricate for the dullard, the first president with an mba,

    narciso (d1f714)

  56. Dana:

    There is an illogical disconnect in the delegitimize Trump presidency faction, who simultaneously believe that Trump is the dumbest thing on the planet and yet is crafty and devious enough to have colluded with Russia in order to serve a bigger purpose than get elected.

    I don’t know anyone who believes Trump initiated contact with the Russians. Useful idiot more fits his limitations.

    Spartacvs (cc1623)

  57. this whole thing’s been blown way out of proportion

    happyfeet (a037ad)

  58. Laryngitis has a remedy: immunity. Grant it and he’ll sing-sing like an Irish tenor.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  59. who simultaneously believe that Trump is the dumbest thing on the planet and yet is crafty and devious enough to have colluded with Russia

    It was the same with Bush 43. He was an idiot, or so we were told, but still shrewd enough to convince all those Democrats to vote for war in Iraq. A stupid evil genius.

    Chuck Bartowski (bc1c71)

  60. the phil Hartman sketch of Reagan, re iran contra, illustrates the only time they were able to humorously depict this dichotomy,

    narciso (d1f714)

  61. “That he takes the 5th means NOTHING with respect to Trump.”

    – Kevin M

    Other than the fact that appointing Flynn as National Security Director reflects extremely poorly on Trump’s judgment, you mean?

    Leviticus (efada1)

  62. “I don’t know anyone who believes Trump initiated contact with the Russians. Useful idiot more fits his limitations.”

    He is not like Ted Kennedy, John Francois Kerry or Jimmuh Carter… truly Useful Colluding Idiots.

    Colonel Haiku (0225f2)

  63. 20. Beldar (fa637a) — 5/22/2017 @ 9:12 am

    Here he’s denying something that no one has accused him of.

    People did in fact accuse him of that.

    Trump ISIS Leak to Russia Could End Israel-U.S. Intelligence Sharing

    By Jack Moore On 5/16/17 at 6:46 PM

    And what the reporter asked may have alluded to it, at least in the sense of there being trouble between the United States and Israel. I am not sure if decipherable video is available.

    And Trump alludes to being accused of it: (in a probably more accurate transcript)

    “Just so you know, I never mentioned the word or the name ‘Israel’ – never mentioned it during the conversation. They’re all saying I did, so you had another story wrong. Never mentioned the word ‘Israel’.”

    Trump did NOT say:

    “Then we’re all set again here”

    But he said:

    “They’re all saying I did.”

    Every news report I can find that includes that quote says he said “They’re all saying I did.”

    I bet you the false transcript came with spin. Where did you get it from?

    This goes back to what Jack Dunphy is quoted as writing in comment 13:

    In the frothing media maelstrom that now surrounds the Trump administration, it is important to maintain a certain level of skepticism.

    This applies even to words that were recorded.

    Sammy Finkelman (6f9f42)

  64. It took less than a month for Flynn to be run out of office, and three months later he’s on the verge of a congressional contempt citation, begging for immunity. How does that not say something with respect to Trump – the man who, you know, appointed him to National Security Director?

    Leviticus (efada1)

  65. yes, congress has been very contemptable, failing to carry through it’s most elemental functions oh that wasn’t what you meant,

    narciso (d1f714)

  66. Lerner was a serving government official (senior executive, I believe) whose official actions were under investigation. While still unknown to US, Flynn’s actions as a civilian during a political campaign appear to be at issue.

    crazy (d3b449)

  67. I just note the contrast, lerner demonstrably interfered in the election, yet no harm, no foul

    narciso (d1f714)

  68. How does that not say something with respect to Trump – the man who, you know, appointed him to National Security Director?

    people are being mean to Mr. Flynn but President Trump is still a good person

    happyfeet (a037ad)

  69. I view it the other way, Pikachu, general Flynn, went all in for trump, and this is the thanks he gets,

    narciso (d1f714)

  70. well maybe President Trump can pull some strings and get the FBI to take it easy on him

    happyfeet (a037ad)

  71. 66. Leviticus (efada1) — 5/22/2017 @ 12:12 pm

    It took less than a month for Flynn to be run out of office, and three months later he’s on the verge of a congressional contempt citation, begging for immunity.

    No, no, he did it before, and was turned down.

    The following story appeared on April 1, but it is not an April Fool’s joke:

    Sammy Finkelman (6f9f42)

  72. Trump knows he was not bribed by Russia, and he thinks or thought Mike Flynn wasn’t either.

    Sammy Finkelman (6f9f42)

  73. now you want something to concern yourselves with,

    narciso (d1f714)

  74. Obviously my comment at 56 should have had quotation marks.

    Dana (023079)

  75. It’s like the hidden Iran agreement, narciso. Doing the right thing accelerates the arrival of the day of reckoning you’re not prepared for – yet.

    crazy (d3b449)

  76. 61. Chuck Bartowski (bc1c71) — 5/22/2017 @ 12:03 pm

    It was the same with Bush 43. He was an idiot, or so we were told, but still shrewd enough to convince all those Democrats to vote for war in Iraq. A stupid evil genius.

    I think Cheney was supposed to be the brains behind Bush 43, and he supposedly wanted the war in Iraq (or something anyway) because of Halliburton, a company with which he had not been involved with before he was recruited as CEO, and all of whose stock that he had he owned he had sold, and whose severance payment he had fixed at a dollar amount so as not to have any conflicts of interest.

    But it didn’t matter. The Democrats said he had a conflict of interest anyway.

    Kerry Ad Falsely Accuses Cheney on Halliburton

    Contrary to this ad’s message, Cheney doesn’t gain financially from the contracts given to the company he once headed.

    A Kerry ad implies Cheney has a financial interest in Halliburton and is profiting from the company’s contracts in Iraq. The fact is, Cheney doesn’t gain a penny from Halliburton’s contracts, and almost certainly won’t lose even if Halliburton goes bankrupt.

    Sammy Finkelman (6f9f42)

  77. How does that not say something with respect to Trump – the man who, you know, appointed him to National Security Director?

    That’s exactly the question but it’s not clear that Trump is trying to stop that from being explored. He doesn’t realuze maybe how terrible a choice he was. He’s like Alger Hiss.

    The bigger question is: How did Flynn get so close to Trump? There has to be at least one other person involved.

    Sammy Finkelman (6f9f42)

  78. I don’t see Trump getting any better. The most reasonable scenario it seems to me is that he steps aside and let’s his representatives (Pence, Tillerson, etc.) speak for him. That won’t always be possible, but it should be his goal.

    Darren M. (a4eb00)

  79. when his dorky son started tweetering you kinda knew there was something a lil off about this Mike Flynn dude

    happyfeet (a037ad)

  80. narciso @75. Trump punted. That’s what he was most likely to do. He didn’t appeal, didn’t drop the appeal, but asked for 90 days.

    It had been assumed that after a few years, no net money would be needed when Obamacare was passed, partly out of optimism and partly to game the CBO score.

    I have also said that the legislative language that made King v. Burwell possible was no oversight, but done to game the CBO score: They pretended that every state would set up an exchange. They did nothing to try to actually force that to happen because theer was no intention to actually try. The Secretary of HHS was authorized to write the software for a website for any state that didn’t set it up, and the legislation assumed that then every state, or some nonprofit group would atke it over, thus leaving the administrative costs of Obamacare out of the CBO score.

    There never was supposed to be a Each state was supposed to have a separate website.
    They assumed that some states might decline, and HHS might have to write one, but that’s as far as the plan went. By that point they’d amend the law, but in the meantime the money needed would not need to be factored in in the 2010 CBO score for Obamacare.

    But the Democrats lost control of the House of Representatives in the 2010 elecrion and couldn’t change anything any more.

    This case involves no appropropriation to reimburse insurance companies for some losses. If the case is lost, Congress would have to appropriate money. They’d do it, but only in exchange for Senator Schumer agreeing not to require 60 votes to pass health care bill in the Senate.

    With regard to the bill the House passed, Speaker Ryan has not sent it to the Senate. He’s awaiting CBO score. If it comes back that it is not deficit neutral, he’ll abandon the bill, and try to get the house to pass another in its place. The truth it, it is not possible to pass a good health care bill (that the American people would like) that’s deficit neutral.

    Congress goes through all sorts of contortions to affect CBO scores, and it’s not even in the constitution.

    Sammy Finkelman (6f9f42)

  81. CNN’s Zakaria: ‘Obama could have given’ Trump’s Saudi speech

    too funny

    happyfeet (a037ad)

  82. 58. Spartacvs (cc1623) — 5/22/2017 @ 11:56 am

    I don’t know anyone who believes Trump initiated contact with the Russians. Useful idiot more fits his limitations.

    Useful idiots don’t usually need to be bribed.

    Now Trump could not have believed that Putin knew how to win U.S. elections.

    The Russians could have approached Mike Flynn, after he made his interest in getting money widely known – maybe signed on with some agency – IT WOULDN’T HAVE TAKEN TOO MUCH MONEY TO MAKE HIM INTO A RUSSIAN SHILL, BUT THE SAME DOESN’T GO FOR DONALD TRUMP.

    Then later, he would have been a Russian selection for Trump’s national security adviser (as a candidate)

    Sammy Finkelman (6f9f42)

  83. No sammeh Alger hisz rose up 20 years in the state department from the Nye committee where the isolationist movement arose through strategic leaking

    narciso (d1f714)

  84. Was it a bad move for Trump to appoint Flynn as National Security Director? How much responsibility should he bear for that decision? What should the consequences of that decision be?

    Leviticus (efada1)

  85. Useful idiots don’t usually need to be bribed.

    Not ruling out bribery, given Trumps opaque business dealings with links to Russians. However, they would have been careful to play on Trumps ego and not be too overt.

    Spartacvs (cc1623)

  86. the way Flynn sees it, is he didn’t have any particular obligation to Russia tv, he appeared at a conference with Kaspersky, really just set up the dunking stool, the Turkish thing might be something different, but who actually did work for the sultan, allowing Islamic state a free hand, giving him a venue in Libya and Syria, unimpeded, dragging on support for the Kurds.

    narciso (d1f714)

  87. re lerner, she and her cincinatti gang, actively used her position, to influence the 2012 election, suppressing the tea party organizations,

    narciso (d1f714)

  88. Leviticus, absent proof of Trump campaign cooperation with Russian operatives scheming to help Trump win the election, the answers to your questions lie with the republican led congress and ultimately the electorate.

    Stand by.

    Spartacvs (cc1623)

  89. re lerner, she and her cincinatti gang, actively used her position, to influence the 2012 election, suppressing the tea party organizations,

    Complete bollocks

    Spartacvs (cc1623)

  90. I wonder if Flynn gets the same leeway Lerner did. Trey Gowdy about lost his mind that she was allowed to make opening statements favorable to herself and then take the 5th when questions got harder.
    Gowdy kept sputtering on about “that’s not how taking the 5th works” and no one cared

    steveg (46c2ea)

  91. 85. narciso (d1f714) — 5/22/2017 @ 2:29 pm

    No sammeh Alger Hiss rose up 20 years in the state department

    That’s true it is not the same.

    While Mike Flynn was in he army for 33 years and started to get important positions aroundthe year 2000 and had become the director of the Defense Intelligence Agency in July 2012, nobody seems to think he was working for anybody else at that time.

    I heard Clapper on TV (I don’t know what kind of a reliable a source he is) claim Flynn had changed after he left the army. He has to say that, or it reflects on him. I don’t know how anybody would know that he changed except for what he did that is known to the public. Maybe theer signs of something dishonest.

    My comparison was with what Mike Flynn was in 2015-2017 (when he was mostly outside the government sctually except for the last three weeks) to what Alger Hiss was in is last years in the State De[artment, partiularly 1944 and 1945 – he remained there till late 1946 but maybe had lost some influence. (also maybe to Truman’s inability to face this, at least in public)

    But unlike Alger Hiss, Mike Flynn had no long term connection with Russia, and as a matter of fact he ade a lot more money from Turkey in 2016. (not the Turkish government but from a political supporter of Erdogan)

    His appointment looked like it would cut him off from future money from lobbying, and ake him loyal only to he United States, but Mike Flynn didn’t sign many of the papers he was supposed to sign in the three weeks he was tgheer (and prior to appointment when it was coming)

    from the Nye committee where the isolationist movement arose through strategic leaking

    Oh, tha’ts a whole other thing I shold know more about. I don’t know much about the Nye committee or the isolationist case except that it was based on lies (about merchants of death and the cause of World War I)

    At that time was the Soviet Union (and/or the Communist Party) pro-isolationism?

    Sammy Finkelman (9fe80b)

  92. Your president folks:

    I never mentioned Israel in meeting with Russians


    Spartacvs (cc1623)

  93. Breaking News- NBC News reports ‘serious incident’ – explosions at Manchester Arena in Britain; fatalities.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  94. I am genuinely disappointed that SoS Tillerson and the POTUS did a Sword Dance with the Saudi infidels and nobody posted a link to the video. [YouTube] Deserving of it’s own post!

    Got to do everything.

    The author is exercised by the fact that our guys are always forced to look the fool while visiting back 4$$ countries like Arabia. He suggests that in the reverse situation, when Oil Sheikhs come visiting, we should force them to wear a cowboy hat and do an organized line dance at the Cow Palace.

    I wholehearted approve and agree with this message.

    papertiger (c8116c)

  95. Small wonder.

    crazy (d3b449)

  96. Greetings, papertiger: ( @ 96 (c8116c) — 5/22/2017 @ 3:59 pm )

    If that author is meaning San Francisco’s Cow Palace, I think that a bunch of Saudis with swords might be more than my idea of of an evening’s entertainment.

    11B40 (6abb5c)

  97. More on the explosion at the Ariana Grande concert in Britain.

    DRJ (15874d)

  98. I’m sure they have a Cow Palace analog in Washington. The original is in SF after all.

    papertiger (c8116c)

  99. yea, pattern of leaks. 3 down, more to go

    crazy (d3b449)

  100. trying to show that they have a busted flush, is not collusion it’s just proper procedure, entous is the recipient of the deep state resistance,

    narciso (d1f714)

  101. Mr. Finkelman, the transcription was mine, from a poor audio. If I had gotten it elsewhere, I’d have linked it. Your jumping to fantastic conclusions and writing several paragraphs about it is one of the reasons I usually declined to engage in discussions with you, and I resolve to return to that policy. The story you link doesn’t support the assertion you made, which is that someone was accusing Trump of using the word “Israel” in his discussions with the Russians about aviation terrorism threats.

    Beldar (fa637a)

  102. Crazy, the biggest leaker is busy leaking in Israel, Europe next.

    Spartacvs (cc1623)

  103. @ papertiger: No one forced Secretary Tillerson to do any dancing. No one’s going to force Arab oil sheiks to do anything when they visit here. But I will tell you from first-hand observation — having lived in Houston, the world’s energy capital, since 1980, where I regularly see such visitors being entertained and/or entertaining themselves, that many high-ranking visitors from the Arab states make conspicuous good use of such opportunities here. You appear to live inside a world populated by false stereotypes.

    Beldar (fa637a)

  104. Would that according to another anonymous Wapo source, Testiclese?

    papertiger (c8116c)

  105. Truman is famous for having called investigations into Alger Hiss a “red herring” during the 1948 election campaign. Now that’s not the same thing as defending Alger Hiss. And then when a reporter asked him in December if he still felt that way, said he did.,4260140&hl=en

    Truman had said it was a red herring to keep attention from the issue of inflation. That’s what Truman said the do-nothing Congress was doing nothing about (besides the proposals in the Republican platform. He called the Congress, which was then controlled by the Republicans, into special session to prove that they weren’t interested in passing any of these things.)

    Truman’s remedy for inflation I think was wage and proce controls. At least that’s what he did later.

    That inflation, by the way, suddenly vanished right before the election (Dewey never knew what hit him) and I don’t think economists have an explanation for that yet. Milton Friedman said in his Monetary History of the United States that the very low interest rates at the time – not quite as low as they got now – was tight money.

    I think it is simply that inventory control broke down, and it can break down more easily in an expanasion than in a contraction. Eventually the production curve gets ahead of the demand curve as more companies start producing things. Prices haven’t dropped in a contraction since 1920 or perhaps I should say the Great Depression.

    Truman also said that Attorney General Tom Clark will see that the law is enforced with regard to dicuments stolen from the State Department. I’m not sure what that means. Does that mean against Whittaker Chambers? Chambers was the one holding on to them.

    Sammy Finkelman (ff268d)

  106. Let’s lead them to the punch bowl, give them all a Stetson, have the President break out his six shooters, and encourage them to join in.

    Any objections?

    papertiger (c8116c)

  107. He’s not so anonymous……wears a comical blond mullet atop an orange pancaked face only a mother could love and bows to Saudi royalty. He’s quite the spectacle.

    Spartacvs (cc1623)

  108. Beldar – does sword dancing take place in Texas? You mentioned @16 that the Texas two-step, waltz, schottische, Cotton-Eyed-Joe, and probably polka, were common at the Longhorn Band parties of the 1970s, but you weren’t very clear about sword dancing.

    Donald Trump, King Salman, and Rex Tillerson, with Melania in the picture standing next to Donald Trump, also put their hands on a lighted globe. Trump has an expression on his face like he doesn’t think much of this. Pressing the globe was supposed to start the campaign against religious extremism.

    Sammy Finkelman (ff268d)

  109. he’s awesome you mean

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  110. Beldar Assume you were in that situation. You personally. Surrounded by Arabs in their full regallia. Everybody has a sword.

    Are you dancing?

    Forget representing anybody else. Are you going to dance? Do the funky chicken? The electric boogaloo?

    papertiger (c8116c)

  111. well who leaked the info, to the press, which meant Islamic state could clean house,

    when in Riyadh does as the residents of riyadh

    narciso (d1f714)

  112. If Putin was getting what he wanted from the US President:

    * Fracking, coal and nuclear would be banned and pipelines to get product to market would be frustrated.

    * The US would support Assad and be doing all we could to drive Turkey out of NATO.

    * The US would be making nice with Cuba.

    * Russian development of its nuclear arsenal would be ignored and we would let our weapons decay from neglect.

    * Israel would be kept at arm’s length and blamed for everything going wrong in the Arab world.

    Now, I ask you, if Putin wanted a puppet president, why on earth wouldn’t he pick Hillary? Putin favoring Trump, who opposed all of these things (and still does as president), doesn’t pass the laugh test.

    Kevin M (25bbee)

  113. @96- Papertiger– having been raised in the oil biz w/family at Tillerson’s corporate level dealing w/Arab tribal scum and their ‘rituals’ in Saudi Arabia and Libya for 35 years, there is a lot of crap you have to eat- and put up with dealing w/them to keep the tankers moving, the rigs drilling and the wells pumping. As do they– like shaking hands. Got a kick out of watching sheiks shaking hands w/Westerners… as such a gesture for the nomadic tribal set is quite an insult. But they know who butters their bread.

    “Salutee!” – Lurcio [Frankie Howerd] ‘Up Pompeii!” – BBC TV, 1969

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  114. it’s odd who they can’t put two and two together,

    btw seeing paul w Anderson butcher Pompeii, makes me wish Robert harris had been able to adapt his novel,

    narciso (d1f714)

  115. @114. Yes, you dance.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  116. 20. 62. 104. Beldar (fa637a) — 5/22/2017 @ 4:17 pm

    Mr. Finkelman, the transcription was mine, from a poor audio. If I had gotten it elsewhere, I’d have linked it. Your jumping to fantastic conclusions

    I leaned too much to the idea that somebody altered it, (or heard what he wanted to hear) because after all, I thought you had a source for that but just didn’t link because maybe it was difficult to copy the URL.

    Also, nobody had corrected it, so I thought it must be out in the Internet somewhere, and I also saw nobody had corrected it yet.

    and writing several paragraphs about it

    I went through severak paragraohs to prove the transcription was wrong. I thought it must be more solidly based.

    I actually got the correct transcript in an e-mail from IMRA, but I wouldn’t have noticed anything except that I felt a need to check. And it took me awhile to realize there was a difference in the transcription.

    Sammy Finkelman (ff268d)

  117. The story you link doesn’t support the assertion you made, which is that someone was accusing Trump of using the word “Israel” in his discussions with the Russians about aviation terrorism threats.

    That’s actually true. They just accused him of jeopardizing an Israeli source. Trump however. said that’s what he was accused of, but he actually wasn’t specifically, although nobody explained how the Russians, let alone ISIS could find out. It was said the information was too specific.

    Here’s somebody writing about this:

    Hours after the Trump-Lavrov meeting, The Washington Post reported that in sharing information about ISIS’s plans, Trump exposed intelligence sources and methods to Russia and in so doing, he imperiled ongoing intelligence operations carried out by a foreign government.

    The next day, The New York Times reported that the sources and methods involved were Israeli. In sharing information about the ISIS plot with Lavrov, the media reported, Trump endangered Israel.

    There are two problems with this narrative.

    First, Trump’s National Security Adviser H.R. McMaster insisted that there was no way that Trump could have exposed sources and methods, because he didn’t know where the information on the ISIS plot that he discussed with Lavrov originated.

    Second, if McMaster’s version is true – and it’s hard to imagine that McMaster would effectively say that his boss is an ignoramus if it weren’t true – then the people who harmed Israel’s security were the leakers, not Trump.

    In reality I think there was input from several countries.

    Sammy Finkelman (ff268d)

  118. Sammeh you have a way of often dodging the obvious conclusion

    narciso (d1f714)

  119. Saudi Arabia exists totally due to intimidation.

    So it would be useful politically, strategically, ecumenically, to have that Saudi bastard forced to take off his turban, put on a cowboy hat, and maybe make him clammer up on horseback for a turn around the rodeo ring with the POTUS leading the charge.

    Tell him it’s one of our sacred traditions to honor visiting heads of state.

    papertiger (c8116c)

  120. Well yes and no, tiger, it exists because of an alliance between the rulers and the tribes

    narciso (d1f714)

  121. The faith of the tribes which over the last 30 years has alienated them from the royal family, think tanks like csis and Brookings seem to specialize in denying that fact

    narciso (d1f714)

  122. Saudi Arabia sucks ass

    buncha perverts

    their idiot crown prince has been a complete disaster for them

    plus they dress like muppets

    what’s that about

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  123. “Why have we never done this before?” The Saudi asks through interpreter, “Bill Clinton and George Bush never had us ride horses.”

    “Bush and Clinton never really liked you much.” Trump answers back through interpreter, “Shhh. Keep it under your hat.”

    papertiger (c8116c)

  124. “In addition to the requests to Coats and Rogers, senior White House officials sounded out top intelligence officials about the possibility of intervening directly with Comey to encourage the FBI to drop its probe of Michael Flynn.”

    Isn’t this basically what prompted the Goldwater intervention with tricky dick “I’m not a crook” Nixon?

    Spartacvs (78b759)

  125. @130– After he did a vote count.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  126. No man of mystery, it’s because all the vrkakte garbage is preventing us from doing what has to be done, so we don’t have an event like Manchester here.

    narciso (d1f714)

  127. You know that Arabs were riding horses for more than 2,000 years before the Spanish brought them to America, and that every riding horse in America is descended from Arabian stock, right?

    nk (dbc370)

  128. Probably they occupied spain for nearly 8 of those centuries, what does that have to do with the price of tea in china.

    narciso (d1f714)

  129. Then that dress wearing geriatric terrorist will have no honest objection.

    papertiger (c8116c)

  130. We’ll put him on “ol’ Thunder”

    papertiger (c8116c)

  131. @132- You missed 9/11, nabisco. Still venting hot gas out your aft end; burp your engine.


    @130- He’s going to face an impeachment trial he brought on himself.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  132. He is infinity stupid, even if they wants they put a wall between the fbi and the cia so they couldn’t communicate, as Broderick might have said.

    narciso (d1f714)

  133. Probably they occupied spain for nearly 8 of those centuries, what does that have to do with the price of tea in china.

    1. Horses were domesticated in the Middle East and the Celts brought them to Spain (along with bagpipes), by way of Ur, a couple of thousand years later;
    2. For any random Arab above a certain economic status and not a very high one, to ride and shoot from horseback would be a busman’s holiday. Like taking Obama on a bicycle ride to buy a Coke when he visited Saudi Arabia.

    nk (dbc370)

  134. you afraid an old Muslim who spent his whole life sitting on his 4$$ is going to school us on horseback riding?

    papertiger (c8116c)

  135. Even if the guy is a champion barrel racer; even if he can do the moonwalk better than Michael Jackson; even if you put a Stetson on him and he sings Friends in Low Places like Toby Keith;

    that’s not the point.

    The point is to have our guy telling this [edit]heal the have to’s and don’t have to’s. And then showing the world (including his own countrymen) when the [edit]heal does it.

    Especially his own countrymen.

    papertiger (c8116c)

  136. 116. Kevin M (25bbee) — 5/22/2017 @ 4:39 pm

    Now, I ask you, if Putin wanted a puppet president, why on earth wouldn’t he pick Hillary?

    because he thouht Hillary was against him, because Victoria Nuland was instrumental in the Euromaidan Revolution, caught o tape b a Russian bug

    And he thought Victoria Nuland was one of Hillary’s women, and was following her instructions, and Hillary ddin’t wat to disabuse of that notion because she didn’t want him to know who really was close to her and the way she operated (the people close to her at the State Department left with her)

    And it was generally understood that she and her husband were backing Hillary.

    Nuland is one of Hillary Clinton’s protégés at the State Department, and she is also greatly admired by hardline Republicans. This suggests she would be easily approved by Congress as secretary of state or maybe even national-security adviser—which in turn suggests that her foreign-policy views deserve a closer look.

    That’s why.

    Sammy Finkelman (c31643)

  137. From the previous link:

    And Nuland herself, many will recall, was the driving force behind efforts to destabilize the Ukrainian government of President Viktor Yanukovych in 2013-14. Yanukovych, admittedly a corrupt autocrat, nevertheless assumed office after a free election. In spite of the fact that Washington and Kiev ostensibly had friendly relations, Nuland provided open support for the Maidan Square demonstrators opposed to Yanukovych’s government, passing out cookies to protesters on the square and holding photo ops with a beaming Sen. John McCain.

    ..Late last month, she was again in Kiev. She criticized Russia for its lack of press freedom and its “puppets” in the Donbas region while telling a Ukrainian audience about a “strong U.S. commitment to stand with Ukraine as it stays on the path of a clean, democratic, European future. … We remain committed to retaining sanctions that apply to the situation in Crimea until Crimea is returned to Ukraine.” Before that, she was in Cyprus and France discussing “a range of regional and global issues with senior government officials.”

    Putin thought Victoria Nuland was close to Hillary Clinton. And he didn’t read Hillary her as a total cynic.

    Sammy Finkelman (c31643)

  138. 20 dead; 100 and change injured?

    That would be a slow day at the Hajj. They average 300 or 400 trampled per religious pilgrimage/stampede.

    Why would they do that? What are they so afraid of?
    Might be those dudes dancing around with the swords.

    papertiger (c8116c)

  139. Coats and Rogers refused to comply with the requests, which they both deemed to be inappropriate, according to two current and two former officials, who spoke on the condition of anonymity to discuss private communications with the president….

    We have a pattern indeed.

    papertiger (c8116c)

  140. papertiger (c8116c) — 5/22/2017 @ 10:37 pm

    Why would they do that? What are they so afraid of?

    At the hajj? Changing anything (about the ceremonial events), interfering with arrangements (that is, they leave incompetents in charge) and disappointing people who come.

    The Saudis are afraid of having people there all year so the hajj takes place only st certain times and they have to be in organized groups and they approve all the people who organize them – either
    travel agencies or national delegations.

    These stampedes have happpened three or four times maybe now. What they are doing can’t be scaled up to handle the kind of crowds they get..

    In what seemed like a hiccup, they were stopped by guards who had closed their intended route, for reasons yet to be made clear. Looking around, Mr. Siddiqui said, they saw a lot of people taking an alternate route via an overpass, and they decided to follow….

    ..Their path began to narrow. Mr. Siddiqui fell in behind his companions as they shifted to single file, hands on one another’s shoulders. He felt pressure from the crowd building as more people poured in…

    Up ahead, Mr. Siddiqui noticed pilgrims scrambling up tall fences on both sides of the road, apparently attempting to escape something. He had a moment to wonder whether he should do the same. He never had the chance.

    Mr. Siddiqui was pushed, fell two or three times and lost the rest of his group. People around him were chanting final prayers to God.

    …His planned route along Street 511 was blocked, so his group took Street 406, which turns into Street 204.

    The crush took place near the intersection of Street 204 and Street 223.

    The Saudi authorities said that the accident happened when two large groups of pilgrims converged.

    Sammy Finkelman (c31643)

  141. Vengeance is mine, sayeth the swamp

    crazy (d3b449)

  142. Greetings, Sammy Finkelman: ( @ 143 (c31643) — 5/22/2017 @ 10:33 pm )

    Ahhh, yes, yes. Victoria Nuland and John McCain, both such Heroes of the Maidan, and the cold nights and the bright fires and romance of capital “R” Revolution. What a time and what great work. If only that pesky Euro-trash Catherine Ashton hadn’t kept buzzing about like an unwanted waitress at tea-time.
    And that downer Vlad the Putin who kept mentioning that it was an “anti-constitution coup.”

    11B40 (6abb5c)

  143. Donald Trump had actually weighed in on Mke flynn’s request for immunity before it was denied:

    Donald J. Trump

    Mike Flynn should ask for immunity in that this is a witch hunt (excuse for big election loss), by media & Dems, of historic proportion!

    4:04 AM – 31 Mar 2017

    This tweet puzzled some people, as they tried to figure out and explain how that was consistent with Donald Trump trying to cover-up things to protect himself.

    It was maybe consistent with Donald Trump trying to protect Michael Flynn, but that couldn’t be at his own expense!

    This tweet considerably restricts the number of possibilities as to what was the picture in Donald Trump’s mind. So what do we say?

    Trump knew he wasn’t bribed by Russia, and he presumably assumed that Mike Flynn wasn’t either.

    Or maybe just poossibly, he did think so, but he wanted Mike Flynn to talk so he’d be cleared.

    The on;y idea consistent with Doald Trump trying to hide something is the idea that Donald Trump knew the request for immunity wld be turned down. But he isn’t reall that devios or maybe capable of that.

    Sammy Finkelman (c31643)

  144. Beldar (fa637a) ù 5/22/2017 @ 9:18 am

    IÆm not going to draw any inferences regarding Flynn’s announcing an intention to take the Fifth. ItÆs equally as consistent with his innocence as his guilt right now.

    At the moment, as a bare fact, it doesn’t mean anything more than that he is the target, or could easily become the target, of an investigation.

    But if he’s not really guilty of much, he’d be trying really hard to get immunity. He already tried and failed.

    Now he’s trying to take the 5th amendment for documents. A newspaper article said they often try it, but they would lose right away. Doesn’t anyone understand this is probably on legal advice – as a delaying tactic. And it sometimes works.

    Anyway trump wanting Flynn to gte immunity is not very consistent with Trump thinking Flynn knows something bad about him

    Sammy Finkelman (6f9f42)

  145. Leviticus (efada1) — 5/22/2017 @ 12:10 pm

    the fact that appointing Flynn as National Security Director reflects extremely poorly on Trump’s judgment

    And he reje3cted Chris Christes\’s advice not to. Christie said Monday he wouldn’t let anywhere near the White house let alone give him a job

    A bigger question: how did Flynn get so close to Trump?

    Sammy Finkelman (6f9f42)

  146. Perhaps Flynn could clear Trump, but Trump does not need clearing. They will use his refusal to testify as proof of Trump”s collusion though no less an authority as Dershowitz says that is no crime.

    dunce (4d4106)

  147. Trump thought any loving was good loving.
    So he took what he could get.

    nk (dbc370)

  148. @153. That was Marla’s plan.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  149. like I said earlier, congress is a contemptable institution, it didn’t dare defend the authorizing language behind the immigration pause, it doesn’t confirm in due course, it doesn’t produce timely budgets,

    narciso (d1f714)

  150. 152. dunce (4d4106) — 5/23/2017 @ 5:55 pm

    Perhaps Flynn could clear Trump, but Trump does not need clearing.

    That’s not the way Trump feels. He even fired the FBI Director because the FBI Director wouldnn’t tell the public what he had told him.

    So anyway, on March 31, Trump weeted his support of the idea of granting Mike Flynn immunity.
    (cf #149)

    Mike Flynn asked for immunity again this week, but he didn’t get it. wonder, if he did get immunity could he confess to being a Russian spy safely?

    They will use his refusal to testify as proof of Trump”s collusion though no less an authority as Dershowitz says that is no crime.

    If anyone would pay attention to what he evidence points to, they wouldn’t say thatm because it points to the Russians trying to influence Trump.

    Sammy Finkelman (107dde)

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