Patterico's Pontifications

Good morning.

Dana (023079) — 5/2/2017 @ 7:07 am

I’m doubtful because he appointed taney and the slave state expansion

http://thehill.com/blogs/ballot-box/331446-distortion-of-trumps-civil-war-comment-is-another-reason-no-one-trusts-the

narciso (d1f714) — 5/2/2017 @ 7:19 am

civil war is no good

NO GOOD

it left a lot of historical battlefields what are very expensive to maintain

happyfeet (28a91b) — 5/2/2017 @ 7:23 am

I’m doubtful also because of Jim crow that lasted three quarters of a century.

narciso (d1f714) — 5/2/2017 @ 7:28 am

The Civil War. Terrible!

AZ Bob (f7a491) — 5/2/2017 @ 7:40 am

Chelsea Clinton jumped into the argument and unknowingly (apparently) took a swipe at her own party.

AZ Bob (f7a491) — 5/2/2017 @ 7:55 am

Paul Mirengoff, who is by no means a Trump booster, has already dispensed with this bit of TDS.

ThOR (c9324e) — 5/2/2017 @ 8:02 am

Neither Donald nor Chelsea read Meacham’s excellent book on Jackson.

AZ Bob (f7a491) — 5/2/2017 @ 8:05 am

More TDS.

Mike K (079e3c) — 5/2/2017 @ 8:10 am

Had Buchanan had Jackson’s toughness, history might have been very different. By Lincoln’s election the split was already ready to burst.
Of course, we might have had a proslavery POTUS who stood up to Northern abolitionists. The possibility of Northern secession is intriguing but way too speculative for anything other than alternate history novels.

kishnevi (082931) — 5/2/2017 @ 8:43 am

One wonders if it were Adams second term or clay in that to
E.

narciso (d1f714) — 5/2/2017 @ 8:48 am

6
Jackson was important but not really the founder of the DP. That’s why the Party used to hold banquets named after two slaveholders:TJ and AJ.

But don’t diss AJ. As the first truly populist President, his goals were the first iteration of the TEA Party and other conservative movements.

kishnevi (082931) — 5/2/2017 @ 8:49 am

He was a rough and ready figure, akin to Sharon, in roughly the same time frame

narciso (d1f714) — 5/2/2017 @ 8:54 am

One might in keying off the last thread, was carter wrong to meet with begin, re king David hotel.

narciso (d1f714) — 5/2/2017 @ 8:56 am

The Republican Party was founded on Abolition. For Trump to suggest that there was some acceptable compromise with slave owners is troubling. That was the Democrat position at the time.

Some things never change.

Kevin M (25bbee) — 5/2/2017 @ 9:49 am

10 – “Of course, we might have had a proslavery POTUS who stood up to Northern abolitionists.”

We did, his name was Andrew Johnson and while he could never re-enact slavery, he did everything he could to disenfranchise blacks in the South.

harkin (a76a32) — 5/2/2017 @ 9:55 am

Meh! Everybody knows the Civil War was fought so Harriet Beecher Stowe could marry Harriet Tubman.

nk (dbc370) — 5/2/2017 @ 10:01 am

Was it inevitable ,that so much blood would be split, probably near seven million in current terms. A whole series of dominoes came into play.

narciso (d1f714) — 5/2/2017 @ 10:21 am

No his heart was for the forgotten man, then as now:

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-39723586

narciso (d1f714) — 5/2/2017 @ 10:37 am

narciso,

Yes, probably. This is what happens when you kick a can down the road for 80 years, then run out of road. The divisions and suspicions were there at the Founding.

Ben Franklin was an Abolitionist before Washington took office. Honest George played fast and loose with PA law (which freed slaves that had been resident for 6 months) to keep his personal slaves in Philadelphia, and when one escaped he set the feds onto finding her (they failed).

And it got worse from there. By the time Lincoln was elected, the slavery issue overrode all other concerns — every decision of government was tested against what it did to the balance of power with the South.

Once the abolitionists took power, war was inevitable.

Kevin M (25bbee) — 5/2/2017 @ 10:39 am

Had Buchanan had Jackson’s toughness, history might have been very different.

No, the war would just have been later. Slavery had become intolerable, and separation would make it no less so.

Kevin M (25bbee) — 5/2/2017 @ 10:42 am

It was the economics as well as the politics that underlay the schism, Northrn industrial vs southern agrarian.

narciso (d1f714) — 5/2/2017 @ 10:45 am

The whigs broke up along that axis along with immigration, hencevthe GOP was an early fusion party.

narciso (d1f714) — 5/2/2017 @ 10:47 am

From an interesting angle:
https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1861/10/11.htm

narciso (d1f714) — 5/2/2017 @ 11:01 am

To be fair, this is a product of the “Take Offense to Trump” contingent. Trump could say “It looks like rain” and get attacked for it.

Kevin M (25bbee) — 5/2/2017 @ 11:49 am

marciso,

Yes, industiralization played a part, but it just affected the temperature of the water, not the fact it was due to boil.

Kevin M (25bbee) — 5/2/2017 @ 11:51 am

One could say the turmoil of the 1960’s was due to the VietNam War. But the war only turned the dial up a bit — the social upheaval was due in any event.

Kevin M (25bbee) — 5/2/2017 @ 11:54 am

Yes it happened in France with degaulle, Germany, with kiesinger, Italy, Vietnam was an accrelerant.

narciso (b05e8a) — 5/2/2017 @ 11:58 am

Kevin M (25bbee) — 5/2/2017 @ 10:39 am

By the time Lincoln was elected, the slavery issue overrode all other concerns — every decision of government was tested against what it did to the balance of power with the South.

Once the abolitionists took power, war was inevitable.

No, the south could have accepted a position or political and moral inferiority.

The reason that the victory of an anti-slavery party caused the Civil War, is because southern politicians could not aspire to any office in the executive branch of the federal government because of the opprobrium that slavery, and defenders of slavery were held in, and because Lincoln would not let them secede and create their own country where they could be president and vice president and cabinet members and so on.

It wasn’t because the Republican Party was going to do anything to interfere with slavery where it was *, and if the complaint was that their escaped slaves were not going to be returned, well, as Abraham Lincoln pointed out somewhere, if they seceded, would they then be returned??

A second essential factor was the de facto suppression of free speech in the south (among white men of course, but those were the political actors) so that starting around 1835, no one could say a word against slavery, and in 1860-61 they found out that no one could make an argument against secession, either.

So while Trump is right that the South has no cause to secede (except the ambition of some of its politicians) that doesn’t mean something could have been worked out.

It’s the two factors of the ambition of some of its politicians – the ones known as Fire Eaters, (who actually did not wind up with the offices themselves) and the lack of free speech in the south that caused the Civil War.

It is true that the south might have been prevented from waging a long war.

—-

* in the immediate future, although maybe that could happen years later after the admissionof enough new states to pass a constitional amendment abolishing slavery.

Sammy Finkelman (37a793) — 5/2/2017 @ 12:06 pm

Oops dd not turn off bold.

The position of Abraham Lincoln was only that the geographic areas where slavery was legal should not expand, and that it should be settled in men’s minds that slavery was on the course of ultimate extinction.

There was a conspiracy theory around at the time, quite possibly true, that some people wanted to make slavery legal throughout the country. Abraham Lincoln warned of the possibility of a new “Dred scott decision” that might declare that no state could abolish slavery. And then there’s the thought what could prevent some white people from being reduced to slavery?

In sum, the war was causesd by the South’s arrogance, or some slaver owners’ arrogance, if trng to impose their point of view that on the North. And they wanted to do that so they would be acceptable candidates for public office.

Sammy Finkelman (37a793) — 5/2/2017 @ 12:09 pm

Before Bannon whispered to the Donald, the only thing Trump knew about Jackson was his face was on chump change- you know, a $20 bill.

DCSCA (797bc0) — 5/2/2017 @ 12:25 pm

Old Hickory would have beaten Preston Brooks down Pennsylvania Avenue, and then hung him.

papertiger (c8116c) — 5/2/2017 @ 12:37 pm

The Civil War, like any war, was a long time coming. See DeVoto, “1846, The Year of Decision”. He describes how varying social and political forces converged, in his view in 1846, to set us on paths from which we could not diverge.
Trump’s view is that Jackson, had he lived a few more years, might have had sufficient influence in the years of decision that the forces would not have had DeVoto’s inevitability.
Trump haters beclown themselves without much effort.

Richard Aubrey (a09608) — 5/2/2017 @ 1:06 pm

Asked about Jackson some years back, Trump said he was a huge talent and could moonwalk better than Armstrong before he became a coach in the NFL.

DCSCA (797bc0) — 5/2/2017 @ 1:16 pm

Possibly the election of 1844, was the fulcrum clay lost out to polk, thanks to the abolitionid

narciso (d1f714) — 5/2/2017 @ 1:21 pm

It is exceedingly easy to imagine DJT selling out the abolitionists upon taking office. Boom, the War of Northern Aggression is thus avoided.

The man is about to sign a budget prohibiting the use of federal funds to build a wall, and he will accept a modified version of Obamacare and NOT root it out, as he swore the holiest of holies he would do.

Expediency uber alles, y’all.

Ed from SFV (3400a5) — 5/2/2017 @ 2:30 pm

TY Mr. Finkleman for 29 & 30.

gbear (c97ba2) — 5/2/2017 @ 3:25 pm

To those suffering from TDS, I wish you a speedy recovery.

gbear (c97ba2) — 5/2/2017 @ 3:31 pm

This should be a well known monument to those who believe in freedom.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Brown_Farm_State_Historic_Site

gbear (c97ba2) — 5/2/2017 @ 3:42 pm

President Trump is the best one!

Compare him with Obama and his filthy socialist penis holster mouth for example or with the execrably trashy and stupid George W. Bush.

As you can see, the best one is Donald Trump.

This is obvious to anyone who is willing to do the analysis.

happyfeet (28a91b) — 5/2/2017 @ 4:10 pm

Let’s not go with Jackson. Let’s say there were anybody but Obama followed by Clinton in the 1850’s, (sorry that’s exactly what Frank Pierce , and Jimmy Buchanan were)

couple of worthless dems who put party over life (other peoples lives of course) liberty, or country,
then the initial vote for statehood in Kansas, which was 10:1 for free soil, .
would have been certified and accepted.

There would have been no speech by Charles Sumner for Preston Brooks to take offense over, and no bleeding Kansas for John Brown to take offense over, and a whole one state advantage in Washington to abolish slavery by normal means

papertiger (c8116c) — 5/2/2017 @ 4:12 pm

Sammy, after the compromises in 1787, the Great Compromise of 1820 and the even Greater Compromise of 1850, plus the Dred Scott decision that effectively made ~~slavery~~ “property” legal throughout the nation, the dial was turned up to 11. The industrialization that was well underway offered employment to urban men, particularly immigrants, and the prospect of factories operated by slaves was a threat to many. The common man saw it, correctly, as their future it it went on.

Lincoln was elected because the consensus was that slavery had to go, not the other way around.

Now, perhaps the South could have negotiated a graceful end to slavery — most of the northern states has phased it out gradually. Or it may have been too late. But the nation of 1860 could not continue with slavery; it had too many enemies for too many reasons. And those institutions in the South that were wedded to it had to adapt or die. They chose die.

Kevin M (25bbee) — 5/2/2017 @ 4:12 pm

After Jackson, there were 6 one-term administrations until Lincoln. Jackson’s former VP, Van Buren, was mediocre, but not terrible. Polk was quite adept. But the 6 presidents in the 4 terms that followed (both elected Whig Presidents died in their first year in office), all score in the bottom 10 all time: Out of 43 Presidents, they score #35, 37, 38, 39, 40 & 43.

Getting into Civil War took a real team effort of terrible leadership. Saying that you would have done better than Pierce (#40) or Buchanan (#43) is a hollow boast.

Kevin M (25bbee) — 5/2/2017 @ 4:44 pm

* … 4 OTHER terms that followed …

Kevin M (25bbee) — 5/2/2017 @ 4:45 pm

OT:

A while ago I said that the House Freedom Caucus was going to be unhappy with the deal on Health care that Trump was going to have to make. They killed Plan A, now Plan B has been killed by the GOP rank & file. As I predicted the bill that will eventually pass is what “centrist” Democrats will sign onto, and the HRC will have no one but themselves to blame.

Kevin M (25bbee) — 5/2/2017 @ 4:52 pm

the freedom filth learned their super-effective legislative tactical stratagems at the knee of harvardtrash ted, who learned them at harvard, from whence is derived his sobriquet

you mock them at your peril Mr. M

happyfeet (28a91b) — 5/2/2017 @ 5:07 pm

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2017/05/02/mulvaney_trump_is_building_a_wall_right_now_here_are_the_pictures.html

narciso (d1f714) — 5/2/2017 @ 5:23 pm

lying, trashy Fred Upton of Michigan, proud member of sleazy brainwashed coward John McCain’s Republican Main Street Partnership

is breaking the promise he made to his constituents to repeal obamacare

For years, when nothing Upton proposed had any chance of becoming law, he helped lead the campaign to fully repeal Obamacare as chairman of the House Energy and Commerce Committee. In fact, even as I write, his website reads, “I
support full repeal and replacement of the Affordable Care Act (Obamacare).”

But now that a Republican is in the White House instead of President Obama, and that what he votes on actually does have a chance of becoming law, he has decided that he cannot support even partial repeal of Obamacare.

happyfeet (28a91b) — 5/2/2017 @ 5:43 pm

yes yes this is the same sleazy mccain-loving filth Upton who outlawed lightbulbs

“This would be a tone-deaf disaster if the Republican leadership lets Fred Upton ascend to the chairmanship of the House energy committee,” Limbaugh said this week. “This is exactly the kind of nannyism, statism, what have you, that was voted against and was defeated last week. No Republican complicit in nannyism, statism, can be rewarded this way.”

Upton (R-Mich.) teamed up with California Democratic Rep. Jane Harman on 2007 legislation aimed at phasing out the use of incandescent light bulbs in favor of more energy efficient bulbs. That language eventually became law as part of a larger energy bill. The pair co-sponsored another bill this May to establish another round of efficient light bulb standards.

Fred Upton is the kind of trash poor, damaged, disgrace-to-his-uniform John McCain feels should be in failmerica’s sleazy house of representatives

the more you know

happyfeet (28a91b) — 5/2/2017 @ 5:53 pm

Kevin M,

It’s not the fault of the Freedom Caucus that we have leftists from the Main Street Partnership masquerading as Republicans. They need to be eliminated so those seats either go to real Republicans or real leftists.

We need transparency.

NJRob (2d2686) — 5/2/2017 @ 8:16 pm

Yeah, Rob, only one problem: The GOP has never, ever been a conservative party. Occasionally it has a conservative candidate, but it is a broad-based right-of-center party. I understand that wingnuts want to make it into the Constitution Party and are upset that when they try to do that “traitors” thwart them at every turn. But there it is.

The HFC is a faction that is at its high point of membership. But the tail cannot wag the dog.

Kevin M (25bbee) — 5/2/2017 @ 11:43 pm

So far the only effect the HFC has had is to force the GOP leadership to talk to the Democrats, rather that rely on a solid GOP conference for must-pass votes. That Pelosi is giving high-fives is due the HFC’s grandstanding. There’s going to be a lot fewer of those guys after the midterms.

Kevin M (25bbee) — 5/2/2017 @ 11:47 pm

The common sense and common decency of ordinary men and women, working out their own lives in their own way—this is the heart of American conservatism today. Conservative wisdom and principles are derived from willingness to learn, not just from what is going on now, but from what has happened before.

The principles of conservatism are sound because they are based on what men and women have discovered through experience in not just one generation or a dozen, but in all the combined experience of mankind. When we conservatives say that we know something about political affairs, and that we know can be stated as principles, we are saying that the principles we hold dear are those that have been found, through experience, to be ultimately beneficial for individuals, for families, for communities and for nations—found through the often bitter testing of pain or sacrifice and sorrow. -Ronald Reagan

Dustin (ba94b2) — 5/2/2017 @ 11:54 pm

Virtually everybody who colonized Maryland came to the country as a slave in service to Lord Baltimore. Catholic refugees bonded by the price of their passage. Interestingly babies born in the colony inherited their social status from their mother (I guess due to the Madonna aspect of Catechism).
Only after the slave trade from Africa become an industry (originally colonization was a method of population control for the UK) did the racial component start hardening the legal status of new arrivals from temporary slavery to the permanent caste system.
Due to inherited legal status from the mother the law had a built in incentive for mixed marriage. Children born of a black man and white woman were automatically free. Due to this law at the time of the revolution 97% of colored citizens of Maryland were freemen.

papertiger (c8116c) — 5/3/2017 @ 1:12 am

Want to thank Sammy and Kevin for the good discourse on the history of the origins of the R party, and the Civil War.

I have to come to a rare agreement with Sammy – yes, it was the ambition of Southern Politicians that drove the nation to the war. That by 1860 the divide was impossible to negotiate was the result of the machinations of those Southern leaders, and the Taney court (packed with a pro-slavery majority). The national election of an abolitionist was just the reality of the western world catching up to the southern “cavaliers” fantasy world, not in any sense a justification for civil war (in the honest sense of “justification”, as opposed to excuse).

Steven Malynn (d29fc3) — 5/3/2017 @ 6:07 am

Slavery was the underlying reason as it was in the roman social wars

narciso (d1f714) — 5/3/2017 @ 6:40 am

Kevin,

What Republican values do the Main Street Partnership share?

Pro abortion.
Pro spending.
Pro tax.
Pro illegal immigration
Pro government control.

There used to be a platform for the Republican party. Where are these in it?

NJRob (68f3b2) — 5/3/2017 @ 8:08 am

I almost forgot. Pro Obamacare though they ran on repealing it.

NJRob (68f3b2) — 5/3/2017 @ 8:12 am

The Civil War killed or crippled half a million young men of the South. Without that culling, where was the place for them? The planters had the good land, which meant the hills and hollers, or going west. Slavery would have followed if not opposed.
Just a different time and place for the Civil War.

Richard Aubrey (a09608) — 5/3/2017 @ 2:06 pm

ThOr @7 beat me to it. Aubrey @33 makes excellent points. And, I can’t believe I’m saying this, so did Obama when he said of Trump, “Don’t underestimate him.”

As anyone who is familiar with my comments must know, I am not a fan of DJT. I remain unconvinced, although the Gorsuch nomination goes a long way.

He appears to be more widely read than I gave him credit for.

Steve57 (0b1dac) — 5/3/2017 @ 5:28 pm

That tweet above is ridiculous. Trump is acting like a fan of Star Trek or a comic book. Instead of saying I was wrong but I wasn’t so ignorant, because I was thinking of something I read that was said about the 1832 crisis, he goes ahead and yes, Andrew Jackson was angry about the Civil War.

Yes, says Trump, he died 16 years before, but he saw it coming

Trump is just making that last thing up.

Sammy Finkelman (9668e6) — 5/4/2017 @ 9:07 am

Trump is just making that last thing up.

Andrew Jackson did see it coming, 28 years ahead of the event.

http://civilwarcauses.org/jackson.htm
A Private Letter Written By General Jackson, on the 1st of May, 1833, to Rev. A.J. Crawford

Washington, May 1st, 1833

My Dear Sir—I have just received your letter of the 6th ultimo, and have only time in reply to say that General Coffee well understood Mr. Shackleford, and urged your nomination in his stead. I had nominated you; but, on the serious importunity of Col King, your Senator, with General Coffee, the change was adopted, and you nominated for the office you now fill.

The Senate cannot remove you, and I am sure your faithfullness and honesty will never permit you to do an act that will give good cause for your removal; and, if Moor and Poindexter discovered that you were related to me, that would be sufficient cause for them to reject you. Therefore it is, that I let well enough alone, although I know it would be a convenience to you to be located where you are; still a rejection by the Senate might prove a greater inconvenience, and, for the reasons assigned, it was not done.

I have had a laborious task here; but nullification is dead, and its actors and courtiers will only be remembered by the people to be execrated for their wicked designs to sever and destroy the only good government on the globe, and that prosperity and happiness we enjoy over every other portion of the world. Haman’s gallows ought to be the fate of all such ambitious men, who would involve the country in civil war, and all the evils in its train, that they might reign and ride on its whirlwinds, and direct the storm. The free people of these United States have spoken, and consigned these demagogues to their proper doom. Take care of your nullifiers you have amongst you. Let them meet the indignant frowns of every man who loves his country. The tariff, it is now known, was a mere pretext. Its burthen was on your coarse woolens—by the law of July, 1832, coarse woolen was reduced to five per cent. for the benefit of the South. Mr. Clay’s bill takes it up and classes it with woolens at 50 per cent., reduces it gradually down to 20 per cent., and there it is to remain, and Mr. Calhoun and all the nullifiers agree to the principle. The cash duties and home valuation will be equal to 15 per cent. more, and after the year 1842, you pay on coarse woolens 35 per cent. If this is not protection, I cannot understand. Therefore the tariff was only the pretext, and disunion and a Southern confederacy the real object. The next pretext will be the negro, or slavery, question.

My health is not good, but is improving a little. Present me kindly to your lady and family, and believe me to be your friend. I will always be happy to hear from you.

Andrew Jackson
The Rev. Andrew J. Crawford

papertiger (c8116c) — 5/4/2017 @ 12:04 pm

He did see it as a possibility. Indeed it was a possibility.

Andrew J. Crawford was nominated to be the register of theland office at Demopolis, in the State of Alabama.

Sammy Finkelman (9668e6) — 5/4/2017 @ 12:48 pm

Another Justin Belieber.

Grab a napkin, homie, you just got served.

[YouTube]

papertiger (c8116c) — 5/4/2017 @ 1:16 pm

I am pleased to report the Pedersoli 10 gauge is looking awesome.

Unlike Hillary! I don’t walk around looking for scapegoats. The 10 gauge had a problem with rusting. But only the butt plate. So I ordered a can of gun kote from Brownell’s. Followed the instructions.

http://www.brownells.com/gunsmith-tools-supplies/metal-prep-coloring/paint-finishes/bake-on-aerosol-paints/gun-kote-trade-oven-cure-gun-finish-prod1150.aspx

And Hillary! is still not President. Awesome.

Steve57 (0b1dac) — 5/5/2017 @ 7:33 am

Brake cleaner seems to work for degreasing the part.

Steve57 (0b1dac) — 5/5/2017 @ 7:35 am

The “matte stainless” is more blue-ish, if it’s important to you that she screws mach. Fortunately Pedersoli supplied a couple of sets of screws with the kit, and one of them was almost the perfect color.

Steve57 (0b1dac) — 5/5/2017 @ 7:42 am

And Hillary! is still not President!

Steve57 (0b1dac) — 5/5/2017 @ 7:44 am

Another Justin Belieber.

Grab a napkin, homie, you just got served.

[YouTube]
papertiger (c8116c) — 5/4/2017 @ 1:16 pm

That brings back memories. I was in Rome having dinner with friends when a British girl approached our table, obviously hearing us talk in English.

“Excuse me, do you have a tiss-you, the seat of my Moped is a bit damp.”

We didn’t have a “tiss-you” so we loaned her one of the napkins from the table.

When she brought it back it looked like she and several hundred friends had wiped their hands on it after servicing a truck stop.

Our Italian hosts were not amused, but we were dying.

Steve57 (0b1dac) — 5/5/2017 @ 8:00 am

5/2/2017

President Trump Talks Andrew Jackson

69 Responses to “President Trump Talks Andrew Jackson”

Favorite Sites

Links

Patterico Sells Out