Patterico's Pontifications

4/11/2017

Bloodying and Dragging Paying Customers: The United Airlines Fiasco

Filed under: General — Patterico @ 7:13 am

This is one way to “re-accommodate” a paying passenger:

I have no fascinating commentary on this story other than to note that the free market often beats government force. Here, an airline was overbooked — well, not exactly overbooked, as they needed the seats to fly four crew members to another city — and rather than offering an amount sufficient to motivate people to voluntarily give up their seats, they called in the cops. Today, as of this writing, the stock is plunging 3%. That’s $675 million in market capitalization. Even if the stock recovers, there’s the lawsuit and the reputational damage to consider. That alone should easily add up to millions of dollars.

Offering $1000 or $1500 to give up a seat looks better and better, huh?

UPDATE: Cross-posted at The Jury Talks Back. I was rushed this morning and didn’t make the cross-post.

172 Responses to “Bloodying and Dragging Paying Customers: The United Airlines Fiasco”

  1. Munoz is right on top of it. Not to worry!

    Colonel Haiku (b97a97)

  2. Principles over pragmatism on display… whose airline is it anyway!

    Colonel Haiku (b97a97)

  3. The internet cared more about this story than anything going on in Syria.

    Dejectedhead (c05573)

  4. This is a great example of several severe issues with federal regulation of air travel dealing with crew situations, never fully understanding ridiculous terms and agreements when you make a purchase, grown men acting like babies, overuse of force and lack of common sense, lack of empathy and good will by any bystander not willing to trade seats with a doctor, completely misunderstanding of bad PR in a social media world, and our culture’s stupid need for selective outrage of the week.

    Sean (9b1c00)

  5. Chicago Department of Aviation. I wouldn’t call those guys “cops”. Rent-a-cops, yes. And the one doing the dragging doesn’t look like he’s even that. No decent security company would let him wear those jeans on duty.

    The way Rahm Emanuel has f***ed up the whole City of Chicago is not funny. And O’Hare did not escape. I picked up my daughter coming back from Tokyo at the International Terminal last week and we drove away discussing the sad impression visitors get of Chicago the minute they get off the plane.

    nk (dbc370)

  6. The United ceo sucks ass. That’s my biggest takeaway. I don’t see them moving on with that p.o.s. still in his position.

    And most people still don;t seem to get that this was a United Express flight – which the propaganda slut media failed to report in most of their copy, and what’s sad is the bulk of the malfeasance was caused by idiots at Republic Airline, in conjunction with the thugs sent out by the Chicago Department of Aviation.

    So a lot of innocent United employees what would never ever orchestrate this kind of fiasco are getting tarred by this, really very unfairly.

    Also that doctor acted like a complete nut job too I don’t think i’d want doctor freakshow to be my doctor. Bleeding all over everything like that is just rude.

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  7. We haven’t used United for years and years. We use American, and if there’s a problem, we blame Dallas-Fort Worth where it has its other hub.

    nk (dbc370)

  8. i like united they have tasty snack boxes and real pringles (not “stax”) and the free treat you get is that tasty little waffle cookie now

    love that lil cookie!

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  9. i really like Mr. Sean’s comment too at #4

    that seems to cover all the bases nicely

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  10. Yes, United acted badly. But, has anyone wondered why the man acted like a bratty kid and did not walk on his own once hands were laid on him? Why he chose to make such a spectacle?

    He was entitled to the seat, but not to let himself be manhandled and then behave childishly by falling to the floor screaming all the way. For goodness sake, show some maturity, some self-respect, get up man and walk out. You can hash it out with United later.

    AMON-RA (9b4547)

  11. Everyone is overlooking the simple solution to this. It’s about 300 miles from Chicago to Louisville. Hire a limo, put the UAL employees in it and drive there in 5 hours. Problem solved. Or they could have at least offered this option to the displaced passengers.

    agesilaus (f1bf03)

  12. Revised numbers on lost capitalization. As of 10:30 A.M. ET

    United’s stock is falling 3.7% and wiping $830 million off the airline’s market cap.

    papertiger (c8116c)

  13. I remember when flying was reserved for the elite.

    AZ Bob (f7a491)

  14. #3: This situation is a lot closer to home, people can easily see themselves being placed in this position where what happens in Syria has basically no effect on the day-to-day lives of the vast majority of Americans.

    Soronel Haetir (86a46e)

  15. Greetings:

    Well, me, I’m sitting here wit a cuppa joe listening to the unfoldement.

    Removée apparently has an interesting past involving drugs and homosex, but necessarily in that order.

    Also heard a report that four customers were to be removed so that four “staff” could be transported.

    Can anything be better than that ???

    Well, there’s the United CEO’s we were right apology.

    11B40 (6abb5c)

  16. oh my goodness Mr. 11 is right

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  17. Regardless of everything about the situation and the terrible optics, I don’t think it’s reasonable to complain that he was booted for airline staff. If they don’t get that crew to where they need to be, a whole planeload of passengers will be stuck.

    matt d (d4aa6f)

  18. Well, you know who’s tailor made to play the doctor in the made-for-TV movie.

    urbanleftbehind (5eecdb)

  19. Its long been ridiculous that airlines are permitted to criminalize their customer service failures.

    SPQR (a3a747)

  20. That man is an MD? Glad he’s not my doctor.

    Yes, they should have offered more.

    I have a friend who would deliberately book flights long in advance to fly on busy travel days in the hope of getting bumped. She made out quite well. Only drawback was that she never made it to Thanksgiving dinner, but she was there in time for leftovers.

    ThOR (c9324e)

  21. Clinton Network News says he’s 69 years old and Chinese. Anything online about drugs and homosexuality?

    nk (dbc370)

  22. No way to treat a man in the Year of teh Rooster!

    Colonel Haiku (b97a97)

  23. But does he have a case councilor> And will United Airlines have any money left to pay off a settlement?

    papertiger (c8116c)

  24. Follow the money. Journalists creating controversy where none previously existed is easier than doing serious reporting. Controversy gets readers which, in turn, sells advertising.

    LTMG (db4d8d)

  25. United Airlines stock is being re-accommodated. Some good comments there also.

    “For an extra $50.00 UAL will not beat you and drag you.”

    nk (dbc370)

  26. They need to stop offering vouchers and start offering cold hard cash.

    NJRob (43d957)

  27. If they did that, NJRob, they would have to not include Las Vegas as an eligible departure city.

    urbanleftbehind (5eecdb)

  28. Between dead bats, live scorpions and surly airline peeps, life ain’t easy these days…

    Colonel Haiku (b97a97)

  29. Believe $1350 is the tops by law they can offer a yank. A chinaman, who knows. Safe bet if this ever makes it to the top court, Gorsuch would rule in favor of United.

    “Fly the friendly skies of United.” UAL ad tag

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  30. They really move their tails for you! “chinaman”… really DCSCA?

    Colonel Haiku (b97a97)

  31. The airline can offer you anything they want in order to get you to voluntarily leave an overbooked flight. The $1300 max applies if they involuntarily remove you, at which point they are required to pay you up to 4x the cost of your ticket, and you can demand cash at that point.

    The payment amount varies by how delayed you are in reaching your destination. If it’s an hour or less, they don’t owe you nothin’.

    Davethulhu (fab944)

  32. Patterico’s market approach is pragmatic and smart. Some people on that plane needed to fly immediately for various reasons, but others probably had more flexible schedules. The latter likely would be open to taking another flight with the right incentives. It’s common sense. I’m surprised there aren’t more people who agree with him, instead of looking for answers that include mord regulations and more authoritarianism, but capitalism is clearly not as popular as it used to be.

    DRJ (15874d)

  33. Another approach would be to inform fliers that the price of their seat is held artificially low by overbooking. Then ask those ticket purchasers how much extra they would pay so as not to be bumped. In cases where there are more fliers than seats, the plane would be boarded in order of the premium fliers offered to pay, with those offering the smallest premium held off the flight and compensated with the premiums collected from those allowed to fly.

    ThOR (c9324e)

  34. It wouldn’t take long for slightly escalating bids from the airline to snag a willer taker. Shocking that this isn’t incorporated into their SOP, honestly – up the bid $100 dollars a pop, and you will get the space you need relatively quickly. Why impose arbitrary price lining in a situation as emotionally volatile as modern air travel?

    Leviticus (efada1)

  35. Yes, the drugs, anyway. http://www.courier-journal.com/story/news/local/2017/04/11/david-dao-passenger-removed-united-flight-doctor-troubled-past/100318320/ And he could be “ethnic Chinese” from Vietnam.

    nk (dbc370) — 4/11/2017 @ 9:14 am

    How is any of this at all relevant?

    Davethulhu (fab944)

  36. If only he had thought fast enough to yell, “Allahu Ackbar!” there would have been plenty of empty seats.

    Mike K (f469ea)

  37. So much wrong with this guy’s reaction. Do you want UA to cut even more flights/crew out of Continental’s former midwest hub on Brookpark Rd? It also provides another bulletpoint of doubt regarding the Wisconsin Restoration.

    http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/look-browns-pro-bowl-lineman-cant-stop-making-fun-of-united-airlines-after-fiasco/

    urbanleftbehind (5eecdb)

  38. Oh, the free market is at work. United was free to have different bump policies; free to offer better incentives for people to give up their seats; free to hire more intelligent personnel; and free to train that personnel better on how to deal with these situations. Passengers who see what product United offers are free to choose another company’s; investors who see the same thing are free to invest elsewhere.

    nk (dbc370)

  39. Southwest responded <a href="“>quickly.

    Kevin M (25bbee)

  40. Southwest responded quickly

    Kevin M (25bbee)

  41. How is any of this at all relevant?

    It’s not. It’s just dirtying up the victim. But the Courier-Journal put it out there, not me.

    nk (dbc370)

  42. Photoshops were brutal.

    Kevin M (25bbee)

  43. 37… yes!!! MikeK…

    Colonel Haiku (b97a97)

  44. My two cents:

    1. NJRob is right, the airlines need to offer cash instead of vouchers. An alternative offer would be some number of upgrades to first class. I’d take a later flight in a heartbeat if I could have 6 or 7 first class upgrades with no expiration date.

    2. United handled this badly. They shouldn’t have let anyone board the plane until their employees had seats. They should have called out at the gate that they were bumping passengers at random.

    3. That said, United had every right to bump this passenger. That plane is private property, and once bumped, the passenger is no longer welcome there. The passenger should have left and complained outside the plane.

    4. The passenger said he was being singled out because he was Chinese. This is a bogus racism charge, considering that a (presumably white) couple had already been bumped from the plane. It was just bad luck that his seat was selected.

    5. For all the people who were shocked that the man got roughed up, not a single person offered to leave instead of him. I’m pretty sure the whole flight wasn’t occupied by doctors who had patients to see Monday morning.

    6. From what I’ve seen, people like to get into high dudgeon over stuff that really doesn’t affect them much. I’m already worn out by this story.

    Chuck Bartowski (bc1c71)

  45. i feel more bad for United than I do for doctor stupid

    that said, i really despise United’s idiot ceo

    he’s a real winner that one

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  46. the other thing is i wish they served pancakes when you do morning flights

    i like pancakes cause they taste so good and they make people happy

    you can’t put a price tag on happy passengers

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  47. If only he had thought fast enough to yell, “Allahu Ackbar!” there would have been plenty of empty seats.

    If they had thought he was Muslim, they would not have randomly picked him.

    Kevin M (25bbee)

  48. That said, United had every right to bump this passenger. That plane is private property, and once bumped, the passenger is no longer welcome there. The passenger should have left and complained outside the plane.

    So, the purchase of a ticket with a stated time and flight number creates no contract whatsoever?

    This will be adjudicated in the most libertarian of all courts: the public marketplace.

    Kevin M (25bbee)

  49. No it won’t be judicationed people will still pick the cheapest non-stop flight as long as it’s not Spirit

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  50. Passenger multi-tsking

    Colonel Haiku (b97a97)

  51. He was entitled to the benefit of his bargain. Under common law, if the only way he could get to Louisville as promised by United was by chartering a private plane, he could have done that and made United pay for it. These regulations about passenger compensation are for the protection of the airlines, limiting their liability in derogation of the common law.

    nk (dbc370)

  52. The common carrier contract does not on its face allow removal of passengers for Oversold issues – just preventing the boarding. (Rule 25)

    Removal is for specific safety/behavior issues (Rule 21).

    UA violated the letter of the contract by boarding prior to bumping (and even then, bumping for aircrew replacements in another city is not an Oversold issue).

    I’d be interested in seeing how this baggy jeans wearing rent-a-cop was trained, what the gate agent said to the thug, and whether the rent-a-cop even attempted (understood) de-escalation prior to manhandling the 67 year old guy.

    UA settles prior to this getting to a jury.

    Losing $700 mil of market cap, great day for the fools.

    Steven Malynn (d29fc3)

  53. So, the purchase of a ticket with a stated time and flight number creates no contract whatsoever?

    I never said that. It’s not unheard of for flights to be cancelled, or for a passenger to miss a connection due to a weather delay, or for a passenger to be bumped; those are all cases where the purchase of a ticket with a stated time and flight number doesn’t get you a seat on the plane. The guy was entitled to some compensation for being bumped, but he wasn’t necessarily entitled to fly on that plane.

    Chuck Bartowski (bc1c71)

  54. Some wag (I have mo idea who, but kudos for the quick, funny thought) came up with “Southwest- We beat the competition, not the passengers”.

    Bill H (383c5d)

  55. Ain’t no drag, United’s gotta brand new bag.

    Colonel Haiku (b97a97)

  56. All your 38th Parallel are belong to us.

    Colonel Haiku (b97a97)

  57. @31. KOR-ean, perhaps, Haiku. Dey all look da same. Regardless, United’s a big hit all across Asia.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  58. @33. That’s cuz fewer and fewer have been gettin’ a fresh piece of pie since the ’80s. No trickle down. Visit a recycle center, a thrift store or a Dollar Parlor and watch folks literally count nickels, parents outfit their kids with used clothes for school, the elderly decide between cat food or Mexican stew and teachers buying used supplies for classrooms. That’s the real world- our middle class is evaporating before our eyes.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  59. @11. Not everyone. Only United’s regional management. Seems they just like to ‘wing it’– from cockpit to boardroom. That’s the ‘plane’ truth of it. The UAL ‘make good’ for this should be sweet to see.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  60. Hilzik, you remember him, has a hot take:

    narciso (47dbe8)

  61. United now admitting the flight was not overbooked. Sold out but not overbooked:

    United spokesman Jonathan Guerin said all 70 seats on the flight were filled, but the plane was not overbooked as the airline previously reported. Instead, United and regional affiliate Republic Airlines, which operated Flight 3411, decided to remove four passengers from the flight to accommodate crewmembers needed in Louisville the next day for a “downline connection.”

    “They were considered ‘must-ride’ passengers,” Guerin told USA TODAY.

    Dana (684ea3)

  62. If they had thought he was Muslim, they would not have randomly picked him.

    He could fool them and be a uighur.

    Inscrutable Orientals. Anyway, it would have emptied the plane.

    Mike K (f469ea)

  63. Jackie Chan is due for a skit appearance on Kimmel or Fallon.

    urbanleftbehind (5eecdb)

  64. The Skies Just Ain’t Friendly Anymore. – Ray Stevens [YouTube]

    The Skies Just Ain’t Friendly anymore,
    Since Flying became a Contact Sport,
    Take off your coats and belts and shoes,
    that ain’t all they want you to lose
    No the Skies Just Ain’t Friendly Anymore.

    papertiger (c8116c)

  65. Unless I’m crossing an ocean and have no other choice, why I drive.

    Steve57 (0b1dac)

  66. I don’t know who is right or wrong, but I do know this, you won’t see any videos of me being dragged out of the driver’s seat of my Tacoma.

    Steve57 (0b1dac)

  67. @63. Employees are ‘must ride.’ As opposed to a paying passenger.

    “Oh myyyy.” – George Takei

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  68. Here’s a travel tip… save the second bag of nuts you get on your airline flight. It will make a great surprise snack after you get to your destination!

    Colonel Haiku (b97a97)

  69. @63. Employees are ‘must ride.’ As opposed to a paying passenger.

    “Oh myyyy.” – George Takei

    DCSCA (797bc0) — 4/11/2017 @ 2:16 pm

    If they’re a flight crew yes, and I have no problem with that given the way the government has set regulations governing the airlines and their crew scheduling (other than government over-regulation), but no airline I know of will bump paying customers for typical employees wanting a seat. Hardly an Oh myyyyy moment, but then again United needs to fire their PR people because they can’t explain anything properly.

    Sean (1d5074)

  70. At least United didn’t gas their own customers.

    Kevin M (25bbee)

  71. 68. I don’t know who is right or wrong, but I do know this, you won’t see any videos of me being dragged out of the driver’s seat of my Tacoma.

    Steve57 (0b1dac) — 4/11/2017 @ 2:06 pm
    =================================================

    You’ll want to avoid the Trinity Road exit off of Highway 65 in Nashville from what I’ve read.

    Colonel Haiku (b97a97)

  72. @71. In fact, it’s a very ‘oh my’ moment per the NYSE.

    “PanAm makes the going great!” – Well, it did before it flew into history.
    Howzabout “Delta is ready when you are!” – well, more often than air travelers like, they’re not.

    Oh for the days of PeoplExpress… and Trump Shuttle.

    “At Eastern, we have to earn our wings everyday.” – Frank Borman, President, Eastern Airlines ad tag, 1980s

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  73. At some point, Dao became a criminal trespasser. On top of that, there are any number of federal regs which deal with failure to follow the instructions of a flight crew he violated. I have little sympathy for his physical injuries/distress/pain.

    However, I loathe airlines. I love that United is taking such an economic and image hit. There was a free market solution available and they were too penurious to utilize it.

    Now, what happened after this incident? Did they re-accommodate three more pax, or did they decide the deadheading crew was not worth the cost?

    Ed from SFV (3400a5)

  74. Southwest today:

    We beat our competition. Not you.

    Kevin M (25bbee)

  75. Western United Airlines… the only way to fly die”

    Colonel Haiku (b97a97)

  76. Yes… I am old.

    Colonel Haiku (b97a97)

  77. Oh for the days when you’d naturally wear a suit and tie to fly, board your flight with minimal security issues, greeted at the gate by a pretty girl wielding a grease pencil to mark up your boarding pass. Then walk through 1st class into coach, which as still a nice ride– with room for your carry-ons and legs… speaking of which, then greeted by bevy of lovely uniformed stewardesses to make the pleasure of travel an experience to look forward to. A window seat, drinks and free snacks… a complimentary pillow and blanket. Even slippers available. Perhaps a descent in-flight meal and a watchable film w/$5 earphones. Close the briefcase… just enjoy the joy of jet travel.

    No cellphones, no laptops. Just good magazines and a book and the wonder of flight around you. Yes, we had that in the jet age, kids, and not that long ago.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  78. @78. Up, up and away– TWA.

    “It’s the only way to fly.” – Tyler Fitzgeald [Jim Backus] ‘It’s A Mad, Mad, Mad, Mad World’ 1963

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  79. i’m kinda over this now the disgusting ceo needs to go so everyone can move on

    how is that even a question

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  80. At some point, Dao became a criminal trespasser. On top of that, there are any number of federal regs which deal with failure to follow the instructions of a flight crew he violated. I have little sympathy for his physical injuries/distress/pain.

    If the flight crew tells you to stand on your head, do you have to obey them? This argument sounds kind of circular to me.

    Davethulhu (fab944)

  81. dao’s weird he may be a big bleedy victim but he’s an unsympathetic one cause he acts like a neurotic simpleton

    even Donald Trump’s stripper daughter knows how to handle touchy airplane situations better than this weirdo

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  82. A wag in an old Lindbergh documentary brought ‘The Lone Eagle’ back to Earth quipping:

    “You know, pilots are essentially chauffeurs.”

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  83. Wouldn’t be a bad idea to buy some United stock.. .it’s not a bad performer. Albeit I recall folks saying that about TWA when I was a kid.

    Absolutely agree that Dao was a baby about this, and he should have handled this better. I would hope that had I been sitting nearby I would have offered to trade my seat… someone on that plane could have saved the day and no one wanted to.

    The airline is obviously the biggest loser, though. No matter what the fine print says, a ticket on an airplane is not a lottery. It’s a promise you will get where you need to go, and United (or republic, per Happyfeet) broke the promise and handled the situation stupidly. If no one volunteers to get up, maybe offer a little more money. Or maybe you take three crew instead of four to the next flight and find the extra body in the next town. You gotta be flexible if you’re going to deescalate problems in a stressful environment like air travel.

    I remember when air travel wasn’t miserable, but folks born on 9/11 are 16 years old now and people are getting used to this cold, crammed, miserable world of travel. I only hope auto-driving cars breaks the paradigm.

    Dustin (ba94b2)

  84. . I don’t know who is right or wrong, but I do know this, you won’t see any videos of me being dragged out of the driver’s seat of my Tacoma.

    Steve57

    Somehow I always pictured you as an F-150 driver. Must be the navy thing. I kinda want a taco myself (my wife won’t drive anything larger), and I think they make them in Texas so they can’t be all bad.

    Dustin (ba94b2)

  85. “…a Hefty bag of passenger trash.” — Chris Matthews, MSNBC ‘Hardball’ 4/11/17

    AKA luggage.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  86. 4. The passenger said he was being singled out because he was Chinese. This is a bogus racism charge,

    Oh good grief what a man-child. I’m curious if he really did have that surgery the next day.

    Good lesson to travelers: give yourself more wiggle room coming back because overbooking isn’t unusual.

    Dustin (ba94b2)

  87. @85. Heard the same thing about PanAm when it was at 4. Then it lost altitude to 2. Then crashed and burned. Airlines can experience turbulence in the marketplace. If this balloons into a several day story, it might result in a CEO change again.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  88. http://www.marketwatch.com/story/these-airlines-bump-the-most-passengers-involuntarily-united-isnt-no-1-2017-04-11

    I have flown JetBlue several times in the last few years. I think once they asked for volunteers because of overbooking, but handled it before anyone got on the plane, not afterwards.

    I have been bumped once because of overbooking, coming back from a cruise. Ended up with an oceanview room on Palm Beach, Aruba, courtesy of the cruise line.

    kishnevi (a3e75f)

  89. It’s about five and a half hours to drive from OHare to Louisville. Considering that the flight and ancillary crap would take maybe three hours altogether, this saved, presuming things hadn’t gone sideways, maybe two hours for the employees. So, to avoid popping for a rental car and a McD’s voucher for lunch, UAL voluntarily decided to offer thousands of dollars to get folks to get off the plane.
    That was dumb enough. Then this.

    Richard Aubrey (a09608)

  90. It’s about five and a half hours to drive from OHare to Louisville. Considering that the flight and ancillary crap would take maybe three hours altogether, this saved, presuming things hadn’t gone sideways, maybe two hours for the employees. So, to avoid popping for a rental car and a McD’s voucher for lunch, UAL voluntarily decided to offer thousands of dollars to get folks to get off the plane.
    That was dumb enough. Then this.

    Richard Aubrey

    There is probably some union rule regarding driving being work. But yeah, an outside the box solution like this should have been considered over displacing four paying passengers, or at least if no one volunteers to get off.

    Heard the same thing about PanAm when it was at 4.

    Right, there’s some risk, but United has been doing great lately, and actually the losses today are pretty minor if look over the last few months. It’s a profitable company, yet this is a PR nightmare. Who knows what’s going to happen? They could actually benefit from this if they used the publicity to create some new program that was popular, for all we know.

    Dustin (ba94b2)

  91. how can it be this late in the story and people still think it was UAL managing that flight

    something’s broken

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  92. People who are saying that the victim should have marched into the boxcar walked off the plane quietly are wrong, wrong, wrong. That’s three times wrong.

    1. There is nothing thugs can do to you if you resist that they cannot do a lot easier if you don’t resist;
    2. He brought worldwide public attention to the abuses airline passengers endure;
    3. He hurt United more by doing this than if he had hired all of Donald Trump’s lawyers and sued them all the way to the Supreme Court. If you can’t beat them, hurt them!

    The lady who recorded this on her phone also deserves a shout-out. Good work, lady!

    nk (dbc370)

  93. R.I.P. J. Geils, founder/guitarist/leader of the J. Geils Band

    Icy (9679bf)

  94. he hurt United and all the employees

    when it wasn’t even their fault! (no fair)

    United has maybe 20 partner airlines that help it provide the United Express service

    only one of those partners has displayed this level of brutish ignorant incompetence

    Republic Airline

    and it wasn’t United’s fault (or the fault of the pension funds what own United stock) that the Republic idiots called on some Chicago trash thugs to do a beatdown on the neurotic weirdo patient-fondling “doctor”

    that said, the United ceo is a blatantly stinky p.o.s. who need to to be fired

    i like the waffle cookies

    they’re chewy and satisfying

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  95. happyfeet, isn’t Oscar Munoz CEO of United Airlines? Didn’t he plead guilty, apologize, and throw himself on the mercy of the court, on behalf of United Airlines, in the link Patterico provided at the beginning of the post? I think the answer to those questions is yes, yes, yes, yes.

    nk (dbc370)

  96. Oscar Munoz. That sounds like a Mexican name. Is he legal?

    nk (dbc370)

  97. My wife and I have old friends – who were high school sweethearts who married but divorced years later – the wife was a stewardess, er, flight attendant for PSA. She began that career in around 1973 or 4 and is still flying thru all the takeovers over the years… PSA to US Air ( I called ’em USError back when I was flying quite a bit for business) to whoever owns them now. Anyways, there used to be a comedy club in Orange County – the Laff Stop in Newport Beach – that stood where the 73 freeway runs now. We went there several times, once saw Robin Williams there pre-Mork, funny, funny man.

    If anyone has flown to San Diego, they’ll remember how you are literally flying between office building when landing… and on September 25, 1978, a PSA flight crashed in San Diego. My wife and I were at work that day and we both remember the sick pit of the stomach feeling we got when we heard the news reports on the radio… thankfully, although she flew San Diego routes every week, she was not on that flight. But she knew every person in that PSA crew, from the pilot on down… knew them very well.

    So to get back to the comedy club, two weeks later, we took that couple to see the comedians, hoping it might help to bring the flight attendant wife out of her funk. One of the opening acts, an east coast comedian, can’t remember his name, decided to tell a couple of jokes using that plane crash as the punch line. I’ll never forget the look on her face and she made it a point to catch the comedian at the bar after he’d finished and proceeded to tear him up one side and down the other in a profanity-laced rage. The guy – and she – were both lucky she didn’t have a weapon on her.

    So a night that began with good intentions, ended up with enraged young woman and a comedian who very nearly got stabbed to death with a butter knife.

    Don’t know how much the airline business has changed – imagine quite a bit, as most have – but that company was a tight-knit company.

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  98. No, Icy… Say it ain’t so. Next it’ll be Magic Dick on the Lickin’ Stick.

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  99. Oscar’s idiotic letter to the United employees was tone-deaf, stupid, and threw gasoline on the fire

    his mewlings and protestations were too long coming

    lame when they finally coalesced

    and wholly unsubstantive

    he’s disgraced himself

    i hate his stupid face

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  100. and he’s probably not even a for reals legal american

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  101. @73 Colonel Haiku

    Steve 57 has a bumper sticker that says “My Old Lady Is Ma Deuce”.

    Pinandpuller (161c99)

  102. Way back in the day when DIA was newly minted a work buddy payed me $100 to drive him there from Casper, WY.

    When we finally got past the corn and wheat stubble to the entrance we were stopped by a guard, which was odd.

    As I recall he kind of made with the who are you and where are you going questions. Then he asked about weapons. I said, “No sir,” and he waved us on through.

    About ten seconds later I remembered the.410 shotgun I had in the back floorboards. But that’s more of a Paul Hogan “that’s not a gun” kind of lie. It’s not like some Columbian drug lords made me swallow it.

    Pinandpuller (161c99)

  103. lol…

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  104. I hope Mr. Munoz wraps his passport, baby toe birth certificate and ID around a bat and beats a recent Cali to north side Chicago emigre to a pulp.

    urbanleftbehind (847a06)

  105. @103, naw, bushmaster.

    Steve57 (0b1dac)

  106. The first draft of that Sylvia song went

    I’ve been to Trinity Lane

    But I’ve never been to me

    Pinandpuller (161c99)

  107. lets have a look at the tote for final damages.

    United’s stock falls 1.1%, wipes out $255 million off the airline’s market cap.

    Not so bad. Switch from almonds to peanuts for a week, good as new.

    papertiger (c8116c)

  108. This story just keeps getting weirder.

    The board’s probe into the criminal charges found that Dao became sexually interested in a male patient, Brian Case, whom he gave a physical examination to, including a genital examination, and whom he eventually made his office manager.

    Case quit that job due to “inappropriate” remarks made by Dao, who then pursued him and arranged to give him prescription drugs in exchange for sexual acts

    More and more I feel alien to this modern society of ours.

    Dustin (ba94b2)

  109. Not so bad. Switch from almonds to peanuts for a week, good as new.

    papertiger

    Still up several points over the month, and a lot of people are having a hard time finding opportunities like this in a market that feels overvalued. Their stock just can’t fall much because someone is ready to take the risk.

    Dustin (ba94b2)

  110. what kind of weirdo does a genital exam on his office manager then gets on a plane and starts screaming like a girl

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  111. Att Thieves:

    You Are Moses and

    My Tacoma Is

    The Promised Land

    Pinandpuller (161c99)

  112. A grandfather and father of five?

    Maybe United (or Republic) should use clips from Gran Torino as training films:

    “Ever notice how you come across somebody once in a while you shouldn’t have f***ed with? That’s me.” — Walt Kowalski, Gran Torino, 2008

    nk (dbc370)

  113. Almost every aspect of the contractual relationship between interstate airlines and their passengers is still controlled by federal regulations and tariffs, deregulation efforts notwithstanding. Those regs preempt — that is, they wholly supplant and replace — common-law contract and tort theories. This has been a special and continuing governmental stimulus to the airline industry, which (like the railroads before them) have always insisted that they absolutely needed special laws to protect them from legal consequences that other businesses must routinely navigate every damned day.

    Which is to say, United is sure to have a lot of legally powerful defenses to any potential lawsuits by this passenger — defenses that will strike most people, and certainly most airline passengers, as chickensh*t technicalities. Blame Congress.

    Federal preemption apart, my view is that the equities change very substantially once a passenger has been duly boarded. If garden-variety state contract law applied, we’d say that by that point, one party (the passenger) has already fully performed his contractual obligations (assuming his credit card payment cleared, and yeah, they don’t let you on the plane until they’ve confirmed that), and the other’s performance is no longer fully executory (that is, yet to be performed), but instead already substantially performed. Intentionally breaking a contractual obligation is not always wicked or blameworthy, but in general, once the parties are both embarked upon at least partial performance, it’s generally harder to escape contractual responsibilities without consequence, and the consequences are likely to be, and certainly ought to be, more severe.

    Out host wrote: “Even if the stock recovers, there’s the lawsuit and the reputational damage to consider. That alone should easily add up to millions of dollars.” I agree, but the PR damages, while difficult to quantify or assess, are certainly going to be many orders of magnitude larger than any sums United might end up paying out to bring this to a quick conclusion or to satisfy any eventual civil legal judgment. Most of the harm to United is attributable not to the damage it caused this individual, but to the damage it has caused to itself by throwing the guy off the plane after having boarded him, and by the repeated toe-stubbing while trying to respond to the tsunami of bad publicity.

    Airlines have done this for years (although usually without physical manhandling). What’s really new is the ubiquity of cellphone videos as a means of igniting publicity conflagrations.

    Beldar (fa637a)

  114. Are there devices/technologies that can fry or lock up smartphones for a temporary period. I would consider supplying police with such a thing to deploy when the hood starts whipping out the cameraphones.

    urbanleftbehind (847a06)

  115. ulb,

    Cops just need to accept that people pull out the phones these days. Some feel safer, some use it as a tactic for bad reasons, and some just really believe in accountability. I don’t think a panic would die down if the cops used a gizmo to cut off recording… in fact I think people would interpret that as a threatening escalation. And if the person using the phone is not friendly to police, at least their attention is occupied by the camera rather than their surroundings, and at least their hands are occupied by the phone instead of in pockets.

    What I’d rather see is uncut camera footage from the cop’s perspective for controversial situations. That won’t be enough for some critics, but it’s the fairest perspective for scrutiny.

    Dustin (ba94b2)

  116. the railroads, United, and I guess all the other airlines, have their own tort reform.

    The rest of us can go [edit] ourselves.

    That doesn’t strike me as equal protection before the law.

    Did you read that Elon Musk has a similar arrangement? Doesn’t have to worry about safety issues with his Teslas freezing up on the freeway.
    Sort of serves San Franciscan’s right. Rich people sucking off the welfare getting subsidized toys that don’t work.

    papertiger (c8116c)

  117. A belated RIP to Valerie Carter, who died on March 4th, at the age of 64.

    That Girl Could Sing…

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  118. Tucker Carlson’s nightly defenestration of Democrats – tonight it’s Brad Sherman (D-Ca) – is must-see TV in our house.

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  119. 119-indeed, col.

    mg (31009b)

  120. Travel agents will tell you to avoid Chicago airports.
    time to spare fly united air

    mg (31009b)

  121. susan rice is a flight risk.

    mg (31009b)

  122. UPDATE: Cross-posted at The Jury Talks Back. I was rushed this morning and didn’t make the cross-post.

    Patterico (115b1f)

  123. Does she walk? Does she talk?
    Does she come complete?
    My homeroom homeroom angel
    Always pulled me from my seat
    She was pure like snowflakes
    No one could ever stain
    The memory of my angel
    Could never cause me pain
    Years go by I’m lookin’ through a girly magazine
    And there’s my homeroom angel on the pages in-between
    My blood runs cold
    My memory has just been sold
    My angel is the centerfold
    Angel is the centerfold
    My blood runs cold
    My memory has just been sold
    My angel is the centerfold
    Angel is the centerfold
    Slipped me notes under the desk
    While I was thinkin’ about her dress
    I was shy I turned away
    Before she caught my eye
    I was shakin’ in my shoes
    Whenever she flashed those baby-blues
    Something had a hold on me
    When angel passed close by
    Those soft and fuzzy sweaters
    Too magical to touch
    Too see her in that negligee
    Is really just too much
    My blood runs cold
    My memory has just been sold
    My angel is the centerfold
    Angel is the centerfold

    Which one was J. Geils? The singer is Peter Wolf > just discovered today.

    Maybe I don’t need to know. Not like it’s a topic likely to come up again.

    papertiger (c8116c)

  124. From what I understand, the plane would still be there on the runway if they didn’t drag his ass off the plane. It becomes a sort of hostage situation. I guess the idea is that you wait there until someone else decides to get off the plane because the screaming guy was too important to get off the plane.

    jcurtis (0f3bbe)

  125. They need to hire a Herve Villechez impersonator.

    De Plane!

    De Plane!

    Pinandpuller (991018)

  126. Long before the Menendez Bros was the case of Richard J. and Deborah Jahnke of Cheyenne, WY and their father, Richard C. Jahnke, an IRS enforcement agent.

    Richard J., 16, lay in wait in the family’s garage for his parents to get home from an anniversary dinner. He was armed with a shotgun loaded with slugs.

    There had been many allegations made about physical, mental and sexual abuse. That was all going to stop tonight.

    As his parents pulled into the garage, Richard J. shot his father, striking him four times in the chest and killing him.

    And now, the rest of the story…

    A family friend went to work with a moving company. He and his work mates were returning to Casper on I 25N via Cheyenne and one of them, a man of color, (axed?) “Say, isn’t this where them kids killed their daddy?”

    “You mean the Jahnkes?” my friend asked.

    “They was Jahnkes? Oh damn! That explains everything! When you got the need, you’ll do anything!”

    And now you know the rest of the story.

    Pinandpuller (991018)

  127. @125 papertiger

    RIP J Geiles. You must be the Ghost Whisperer.

    Pinandpuller (991018)

  128. J Geiles had many great guitar licks.
    FullHouse was a great Album, saw them live after it came out.
    Chicks loved magic Dick and his licking stick.

    mg (31009b)

  129. customers may not always be right, but dragging a dude off a plane is always wrong.
    CEO’s across the world need to be brought to reason. At gunpoint works for me as they never listen to the public. They only know how to screw people out of money, it’s who they are. so very sad.

    mg (31009b)

  130. dragging a dude off a plane is always wrong.

    It’s maybe not the best customer service imaginable I suppose, but they really just asked the guy to leave after he paid for his seat. That’s all they did. He then escalated the situation by refusing to leave, and these days escalating things on an airplane is irresponsible. I think the guy detected the mood on the plane and realized he could exploit this for a payout, and it was his idea to get dragged off the plane.

    Dustin (ba94b2)

  131. …screaming like a girl

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  132. Or maybe because he’s 69 years old and no stranger to trouble?

    nk (dbc370)

  133. nk, you may be right.

    All I’m saying is that unless I kill a cop you won’t see video of me dragged out of the driver’s seat of my Toyota. And I have no plans to kill any cops.

    So I prefer driving.

    Steve57 (0b1dac)

  134. Law enforcement official, there is no cause for alarm. I am simply commenting on what makes the news.

    Steve57 (0b1dac)

  135. Don’t blame the girlie man for screaming and yelling nor looking for a payout.

    United is packed with s*bags.

    Pay someone off. Eventually a price would be reached that a passenger would accept.

    Also those lazy union airline employees could have rented a car and driven Chicago to Louisville if that important.

    Seating a passenger on an airplane then tossing them to make your life easier is wrong. Period.

    Blah Blah (44eaa0)

  136. And am I wrong, but isn’t that a black guy who assaulted the Asian? Waysissm????

    Can bet you $1,000,0000 that would never be done to a black women.

    Blah Blah (44eaa0)

  137. Blah, Blah:

    Then he’s probably a moonlighting Stroger-ite hack Cook County Deputy. Probably a close neighbor to my old house – spent my formative years in Chicago’s 8th ward (known as the John/Todd Stroger ward, but home to many Cook County employees).

    urbanleftbehind (5eecdb)

  138. just imagine teh outrage if that had been Rip Taylor torn from his seat and dragged down the aisle!

    RIP Rip.

    Colonel Haiku (e725d8)

  139. Or the hilarity of same being done to Steven Wright.

    Colonel Haiku (e725d8)

  140. Newark’s United Club is getting the buffet and the kickback ready:
    http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2017/04/12/christie-tees-off-on-awful-united-airlines-in-wake-uproar.html

    urbanleftbehind (5eecdb)

  141. I once watched a man hassled because there was something wrong with his seat (it was not a seat belt issue). They insisted he move to another seat. He wanted to stay where he was which was next to his wife. As soon as he offered resistance he was threatened with not only being removed but also arrest. He said he didn’t care about the seat issue, that it did not bother him but they insisted he move or face ejection/arrest because no one would be allowed to sit there.

    He finally moved and we sat there another half hour, while some techs worked on his seat.

    They finally were satisfied and closed the door but not before allowing another passenger to board and take the guy’s seat.

    harkin (517285)

  142. Jet Blue is the silver crow I fly, Great flight from Boston to L.A.x

    mg (31009b)

  143. this is a huge win for LIFE

    happyfeet (a037ad)

  144. Life is overrated

    Davethulhu (fab944)

  145. I’m seeing reports that the person identified as having drug issues is not actually the same person as the United passenger.

    SPQR (a3a747)

  146. That an Ash Wednesday shot of Severino? Awesome!

    urbanleftbehind (c8adc7)

  147. @120. Carlson’s ratings are surprisingly strong. The format seems to be finally working for him after being shopped through all the cablers, save Oxygen. Given the numbers he’s pulling, might be a reasonable bet he’ll slip into the Papa Bear slot after he gets jettisoned. They can sell ads around TC; Billo, not so much no more.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  148. Life is overrated

    I like the four seat convertible cars, the 3 d terrain features, and the spinner. That’s always fun.

    papertiger (c8116c)

  149. The mullahs write in their state newspaper that Russia, Iran, and Syria are teaming up to attack the USA “with lethal response” if there are anymore missile strikes on Syria.

    Also they imply that it was American bombers that dropped Sarin on Khan Sheikhoun as pretext for the Tomahawk missile strike.

    http://en.farsnews.com/newstext.aspx?nn=13960120001532

    “We will respond to any aggression powerfully, as Russia and Iran would never allow the US to dominate the world,” the statement said on Sunday.

    Describing the recent US missile strike on an airbase in Syria’s Homs province as yet “another miscalculation” by Washington, the statement said, “We believe that the events (chemical weaopns use) in Khan Sheikhoun have been plotted by certain states and bodies to be used as a pretext to attack Syria.”

    The statement stressed that supporters and trainers of the terrorist groups, including the ISIL and al-Nusra Front (also known as Fatah al-Sham Front or the Levant Liberation Board) are not entitled to introduce themselves as advocates of human rights, and blasted the US for its disrespect for the UN members through its unilateral move against Syria before any official investigation into the chemical incident in Idlib.

    Elsewhere, the allies of Syria underscored that “we are not unaware of what the US seeks to be materialized in Northern Syria and Northwestern Iraq”.

    In relevant remarks on Sunday morning, Secretary of Iran’s Supreme National Security Council (SNSC) Ali Shamkhani underlined that the result of investigations by a fact-finding committee on the chemical attack in Syria will bring another disgrace for the US which attacked the country before any probe.

    What do you think? Does Iran speak for Putin now?

    papertiger (c8116c)

  150. What do you think? Does Iran speak for Putin now?

    Quick, Paper, get out a “cuck” meme of a Mullah arse-barging Putin.

    urbanleftbehind (5eecdb)

  151. I like the four seat convertible cars, the 3 d terrain features, and the spinner. That’s always fun.

    cinnamon life is ok

    Davethulhu (fab944)

  152. From the Instapundit linked “U.S. Blasts Russian Denial that Syria Uses Chemical Weapons”
    The story alludes to Putin in the first person accusing the US of staging the chemical attacks, and that he has insider info that Trump will hit another Sarin equipped air base South of Damascus.

    Putin contended the U.S. staged “provocations” to bolster its charges against Syria, although gave no details or evidence for his statement. The Kremlin leader also claimed Washington is planning a new missile launch against Syria, which supposedly would target an area south of the capital, Damascus, “where they (the Americans) are planning to again plant some substance and accuse Syrian authorities” of using chemical weapons.

    To me that sounds like Putin pointing a finger to where the Syrians have their Sarin gas stored.

    papertiger (c8116c)

  153. I’m seeing reports that the person identified as having drug issues is not actually the same person as the United passenger.

    That didn’t sound very credible to me, either. Father of five, grandfather, wife a doctor, children who are doctors ….

    Hatchet job by United publicist via gullible local paper?

    nk (dbc370)

  154. Or maybe it’s the other way around? http://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-united-david-dao-20170412-story.html

    Sigh. There’s a 13-year old girl who has been charged with sending false information over the internet. If only.

    nk (dbc370)

  155. I’m here to kick ass and sell seats on this airplane…

    and I’m all out of seats.

    United (ba94b2)

  156. Dustin @86, I believe my Tacoma may have been built in San Antonio.

    http://toyotatexas.com/

    Steve57 (0b1dac)

  157. I’m just here to check out the night life in Las Cruces on my way to visit family in Kali as there’s no way I’m flying.

    Steve57 (0b1dac)

  158. What do you think? Does Iran speak for Putin now?

    Quick, Paper, get out a “cuck” meme of a Mullah arse-barging Putin.

    This is by me. No idea what it means, ULB.

    papertiger (c8116c)

  159. Shamkhani got his start, like all senior sepah leadership organizing Hezbollah in Lebanon,

    narciso (6261f8)

  160. It would be more accurate to say, he’s the other end of the puppet:

    http://en.mehrnews.com/news/122780/Shamkhani-Russian-counterpart-discuss-Syrian-developments

    narciso (6261f8)

  161. 4. Sean (9b1c00) — 4/11/2017 @ 7:48 am

    This is a great example of several severe issues with federal regulation of air travel dealing with crew situations,

    it’s maybe an issue with people involved with antitrust on;y caring about competition regarding price – three or four companies with potential for explansion by smaller companies may be enough to stop prices from going through the cceiling, but you need more companies – around 20 – to gte competition when it comes to service and similar issues, because ony a few companies will start to do things differently.

    lack of empathy and good will by any bystander not willing to trade seats with a doctor,

    Was that actually even possible, once the airline had decided to bump him? If it was, nobody told any of the other passengers. And I think they also might have been afraid that if somebody was so bold as to make such an offer, the airline would simply decide to bump both of them. Taking pictures could be done very quietly.

    By the way, he wasn’t bumped because he was Chinese, as he suspected. That was not even a subtle factor – he was not singled out by somebody’s whim. The decision as to whom to bump was made by a computer basically picking people at random, with some constraints, like not separating families, so passengers travelling alone. And also only people who were not frequent flyers probably. The algorithm is probably secret, although some aspects of it can be guessed.

    Sammy Finkelman (db2a13)

  162. 5. nk (dbc370) — 4/11/2017 @ 7:49 am

    Rent-a-cops, yes. And the one doing the dragging doesn’t look like he’s even that. No decent security company would let him wear those jeans on duty.

    I recall there waa a dragging incident in a high school not so long ago, in Orrth Carolina maybe. No South CArolina. That one was done by a real cop.

    http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/video-appears-show-cop-body-slamming-student-s-c-classroom-n451896

    There was also a case of teacher dragging a student in Orlando, Florida

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2fgY6sy8DGs

    There’s probably no good way to do that. Some situations are just not worth dragging people, but go tell them that in certain circumstances, if someone puts up resistance, it’s time to give up.

    Sammy Finkelman (db2a13)

  163. 6. happyfeet (28a91b) — 4/11/2017 @ 7:55 am

    And most people still don’t seem to get that this was a United Express flight

    That’s the first I heard about this – that it wasns’t actually United. However. the United CEO went on to completely take reponsibility for it, and say they did the right thing.

    Also that doctor acted like a complete nut job too I don’t think i’d want doctor freakshow to be my doctor.

    Well, he was a nut job, so what do you expect? He lost his license years ago (2005) after being convicted for over prescribing or selling pills (a felony) and just gained it back in 2015.

    10. AMON-RA (9b4547) — 4/11/2017 @ 8:05 am

    But, has anyone wondered why the man acted like a bratty kid and did not walk on his own once hands were laid on him? Why he chose to make such a spectacle?

    I think some people think he was calculating how much he would win in a lawsuit, but really he was hoping to get the airline to change its mind. He said he had patients waiting for him (and probably was worried about losing money.)

    He was entitled to the seat, but not to let himself be manhandled and then behave childishly by falling to the floor screaming all the way. For goodness sake, show some maturity, some self-respect, get up man and walk out. You can hash it out with United later.

    But how much money will he get that way? Will he get anything at all?

    11. agesilaus (f1bf03) — 4/11/2017 @ 8:27 am

    Hire a limo, put the UAL employees in it and drive there in 5 hours. Problem solved. Or they could have at least offered this option to the displaced passengers.

    How much would that cost? Was the money the airline offered enough to do that? Did anyone at the airline have the wits to siggest the idea?

    17. matt d (d4aa6f) — 4/11/2017 @ 8:57 am

    I don’t think it’s reasonable to complain that he was booted for airline staff. If they don’t get that crew to where they need to be, a whole planeload of passengers will be stuck.

    Was that the reason they wanted the airline staff on there? There is still the complaint that this only happendd after they were already on the plane. Usually passengers get bumped before they board the plane. This signals disorganization.

    Sammy Finkelman (db2a13)

  164. Syria:

    https://www.nytimes.com/2017/04/11/world/middleeast/russia-syria-chemical-weapons-white-house.html?_r=0

    At the Pentagon, several officials said the presence of Russian personnel at the Al Shayrat airfield, used to launch the chemical strike, points to at least a possibility that Russia knew about the chemical attack. But Defense Secretary Jim Mattis on Tuesday refused to make that direct accusation.

    “It was very clear that the Assad regime planned it, orchestrated it and executed it,” Mr. Mattis said at a news conference, when asked whether Russia was involved. “We know what I’ve just told you. We don’t know anything beyond that.”

    I don’t think he knows that at all.

    How does he know it wasn’t Russia that planned it, and Syria that went along, rather than Syria planning it, and Russia going along?

    Sammy Finkelman (db2a13)

  165. Spicer got tied into knots because of Godwin’s Law. He wanted to say that Syria was in some respects the worst regime in the history of he world, although that wasn’t true at all.

    His basid point is that Nazi Germany never used poison gas in warfare. That’s generally been asusmed becauase of fear that it would similarly be used by the Allies, and there’s also the fact they used horses.

    What this shwos you acxtually is that there is some effect from arms controls treaties that actually work. When somehtinbg is taken off the table, even though that is enforceable if the regime changes, the infrastucture for manufacturing it is not there, and the expertise in using it is missing, and a project may not get okayed, and if it does, many steps are needed till use if it not something already in the arsenal.

    In 1939, it was thought London might be hit by posion gas, (albeit more standard, and less lethal poison gas) but this never happened, and it didn’t even happen later when the V-1 and V-2 rockets were developed. It was just not on the drawing board.

    The Nazis actually were the first to discover nerve gas.

    Here’s an article about why it wasn’t used in warfare:

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1292877/Did-Nazi-scientist-save-Britain-Hitlers-deadly-gas-killed-millions.html

    …According to Frank J. Dinan, a distinguished professor of chemistry and biochemistry at Canisius College in Buffalo, New York State, a scientist close to Hitler exaggerated the Allies’ capability of hitting back with their own chemical weapons, which caused the Fuhrer to rethink his plans…It was hardly surprising that the Nazis quickly identified Tabun as being a promising new weapon. Indeed, they even kept it secret for fear the Allies would also be able to manufacture it.

    After more tests and investigations, it was decided to develop a plant to produce the poison on an industrial scale. Progress was slow as the work was complicated and dangerous. Despite extreme precautions by the 3,000-stong workforce, more than 300 accidents took place, and ten workers suffered horrific deaths when Tabun was accidentally spilled.

    Nevertheless, by mid-1943, the Germans had managed to manufacture 12,500 tons of Tabun, much of which was loaded into munitions such as shells and bombs. At the time, the Nazis had without doubt the deadliest weapon of the war.

    In May that year, a meeting took place at Hitler’s Wolf ‘s Lair headquarters in East Prussia that would have far-reaching ramifications for the whole of history. The Germans had just been defeated at Stalingrad, and Hitler had summoned both armaments minister Albert Speer and Otto Ambros to discuss the use of chemical weapons.

    Many senior Nazis had been imploring Hitler to use Tabun against the Russians, but he had refused, partly because he feared the Allies also had access to similar weapons.

    Hitler asked Ambros whether his fears were justified. Ambros told the Fuhrer the Allies would be able to produce vast quantities of mustard gas, but this didn’t bother Hitler.

    He wanted to know if the British and Americans also had access to much deadlier nerve agents, such as Tabun.

    ‘I understand that the countries with petroleum are in a position to make more mustard gas,’ Hitler said, ‘but Germany has a special gas, Tabun. In this we have a monopoly in Germany.’

    Hitler then enquired whether the Allies could make Tabun and a similar nerve agent, Sarin.

    Did Nazi scientist save Britain from Hitler’s deadly gas that could have killed millions?
    By Guy Walters
    Updated: 17:24 EDT, 7 July 2010

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    Saviour: Did Otto Ambros wants to spare millions of soldiers?

    None of the men of the 1st Battalion of the Royal Hampshires was surprised that the fight would be tough. As they doggedly advanced up ‘Gold’ beach on D-Day, every man knew that surviving the murderous criss-cross of machine-gun fire would demand a miracle.

    The village of Le Hamel, although no more than a few hundred yards beyond the surf, never seemed to get any closer. The bullets mercilessly cut down their commanding officer as well as several middle-ranking officers, and as the day wore on, it looked as if the entire battalion would be slaughtered on the beach.

    Fortunately, the arrival of the 2nd Devons helped turn the tide. The combined force managed to overwhelm the Germans at Le Hamel, and soon the attention of the British turned to the small town of Arromanches. On this sector of Gold, at least, it finally looked as if D-Day might be a success.

    At around 4pm, the Germans responded with an artillery barrage, causing the troops to duck down inside the recently captured German fortifications. Nothing, the British thought, could penetrate the defences that thousands of slave labourers had built over the past four years.

    But within minutes of the first shells raining down, something strange happened. A slightly fruity odour hung in the air. Many of the men soon began to tremble and sweat – in itself nothing unusual during such a relentless barrage – but most also found that their eyes were extremely itchy.

    When the soldiers started looking at each in anxious bewilderment, some noticed that their pupils were also excessively small.

    A minute or two later, noses started running, and mouths frothed with seemingly endless quantities of saliva. Soon, the troops had trouble breathing; many went into convulsions. Bowels and bladders became uncontrollable, and heart rates slowed to near standstills.

    Unconsciousness overcame all but a few, and within 15 minutes of the start of the barrage, 967 members of the two battalions lay dead. By 5pm, a further 312 had died, leaving as the only survivors those who had been wounded on the beach, and the medics who were tending them.

    The gas was quickly identified as one of the earliest nerve agents, which are deadly to mammals because they destroy the functioning of the nervous system

    All along the Normandy beaches that day, tens of thousands of Allied troops met the same horrific fate – all poisoned by a nerve agent called Ethyl dimethylphosphoramidocyanidate – or, to give it its more punchy German name, Tabun.

    At least, that’s how it might have been . . .

    Thankfully, this chilling scenario never came to pass. As we all know, DDay did not fail and the Allies went on to defeat Hitler. But if it had not succeeded, their only hope of seeing off the Germans would have been to fall back on the scientists who were working in New Mexico to develop a secret and unproven device, the atomic bomb.

    All this leads one to ask the question that has vexed historians since 1945: why didn’t Hitler use chemical weapons against the Allies? After all, he had shown no qualms against using gas on Jewish men, women and children, so why not against enemy troops as well?

    Until now, many believed his reluctance to use these weapons on Allied soldiers stemmed from his own bitter experiences of being gassed during World War I.

    As a young soldier, on the night of October 13-14, 1918, near Ypres, Corporal Hitler was exposed to mustard gas released by the British that left him temporarily blind. It ended his war, and apparently left him with a strong desire never to see gas used again.

    As a young soldier, Hitler was exposed to mustard gas which left him temporarily blind

    But now a startling new explanation has come to light. According to Frank J. Dinan, a distinguished professor of chemistry and biochemistry at Canisius College in Buffalo, New York State, a scientist close to Hitler exaggerated the Allies’ capability of hitting back with their own chemical weapons, which caused the Fuhrer to rethink his plans.

    If Professor Dinan’s extraordinary claim is true, it means that a German scientist, up until now regarded as a war criminal, might be one of the greatest unsung heroes of the 20th century.

    That man was Otto Ambros. Born in 1901, he was a highly able chemist who earned his doctorate at Munich University in 1925. He initially worked for the German chemical company BASF, but by 1938 had risen to become a board member of the giant IG Farben, where he helped mastermind the firm’s chemical weapons section.

    Industrious and charismatic, Ambros was highly regarded by the Nazis, and he was given the use of concentration camp prisoners at Buna-Werk IV, a subsidiary of Auschwitz, to help produce his chemical weaponry.

    Although Ambros later claimed that he had worried dreadfully about the conditions in which the prisoners worked, there can be little doubt that such sympathy was not overtly expressed during the war.

    As Ambros himself was to write to an IG Farben director in April 1941: ‘On the occasion of a dinner given for us by the management of the concentration camp, we furthermore determined all the arrangements relating to the involvement of the really excellent concentration-camp operation.’

    Ambros’s hard work earned him much prestige as well as the War Merit Cross, and the 1st and 2nd Class and the Knight’s Cross of the War Merit Cross. Designated as a ‘military economy leader’, Ambros was considered essential to the war effort, and he soon mixed with the elite of the Third Reich.

    One of the chemicals on which Ambros invested most time and energy was Tabun. It was first manufactured on December 23, 1936, when Dr Gerhard Schrader of IG Farben was preparing compounds he could use as insecticides.

    Schrader discovered that Tabun was extremely effective against leaf lice, but it was not until the following month that its toxicity towards humans was established.

    In fact, it was Schrader himself who, along with a laboratory assistant, were the first to suffer Tabun’s effects. While working on the chemical, they were exposed to its fumes, and rapidly found themselves short of breath. After swiftly seeking fresh air, the two men recovered, but they were extremely lucky.

    Had Hitler instructed the use of Tabun, tens of thousands of Allied troops may have met horrific fates on the Normandy Beaches

    Tabun was quickly identified as one of the earliest nerve agents, which are deadly to many mammals because they destroy the functioning of the nervous system.

    Once Tabun is absorbed, it prevents the action of a key enzyme that regulates all nerve transmission processes. Victims suffer blindness, lose control of bodily functions and suffocate. Death follows in a matter of minutes.

    But Tabun is particularly dangerous as it can be absorbed through the lungs, the skin and even the eyes. Even one millilitre absorbed through the skin can be fatal.

    It was hardly surprising that the Nazis quickly identified Tabun as being a promising new weapon. Indeed, they even kept it secret for fear the Allies would also be able to manufacture it.

    After more tests and investigations, it was decided to develop a plant to produce the poison on an industrial scale. Progress was slow as the work was complicated and dangerous. Despite extreme precautions by the 3,000-stong workforce, more than 300 accidents took place, and ten workers suffered horrific deaths when Tabun was accidentally spilled.

    Nevertheless, by mid-1943, the Germans had managed to manufacture 12,500 tons of Tabun, much of which was loaded into munitions such as shells and bombs. At the time, the Nazis had without doubt the deadliest weapon of the war.

    In May that year, a meeting took place at Hitler’s Wolf ‘s Lair headquarters in East Prussia that would have far-reaching ramifications for the whole of history. The Germans had just been defeated at Stalingrad, and Hitler had summoned both armaments minister Albert Speer and Otto Ambros to discuss the use of chemical weapons.

    Many senior Nazis had been imploring Hitler to use Tabun against the Russians, but he had refused, partly because he feared the Allies also had access to similar weapons.

    Hitler asked Ambros whether his fears were justified. Ambros told the Fuhrer the Allies would be able to produce vast quantities of mustard gas, but this didn’t bother Hitler.

    He wanted to know if the British and Americans also had access to much deadlier nerve agents, such as Tabun.

    ‘I understand that the countries with petroleum are in a position to make more mustard gas,’ Hitler said, ‘but Germany has a special gas, Tabun. In this we have a monopoly in Germany.’

    Hitler then enquired whether the Allies could make Tabun and a similar nerve agent, Sarin.

    And it was at this point that Ambros made the claim that Professor Dinan believes may well have changed the course of the war.

    ‘I have justified reasons to assume that Tabun, too, is known abroad,’ he said. ‘I know that Tabun was publicised as early as 1902, that Sarin was patented, and that these substances appeared in patents.’

    It was an extraordinary answer, as it was completely untrue. And he knew it. What’s more, Professor Dinan argues that it was when Hitler realised that the Allies might be able to retaliate with Tabun or similar chemicals that he expressed deep disappointment and abandoned the meeting.

    Another possibility was that it was someboody other than Ambrose who made this claim. But he coduld have done it because he thought that point that Germany was going to lose the war, and had to, if he was to live.

    Of course, it is also conceivable that the meeting between Hitler and Ambros never actually took place. The chemist recounted details of the conversation during his trial for crimes against humanity at Nuremberg from August 1947 to July 1948…

    Casting himself as a white knight may have been an attempt to curry favour with the court – in the end, he was sentenced to eight years. Twenty years after his death in 1990, we may never know.

    Sammy Finkelman (db2a13)

  166. Let’s simplify it sammeh, the Iraqis used sarin in halabja, the most verifiable open air test, there may have usage of said weapons in the angolan conflict, Hitler of course used another ig Franken product but in a covert confined space.

    narciso (c8907a)

  167. narciso (c8907a) — 4/12/2017 @ 9:03 pm

    Hitler of course used another ig Franken product but in a covert confined space.

    And he didn’t think that would result in retaliation, maybe in part because it was supposed to be completely secret. From the article it sounds like Otto Ambros was involved with that.

    Now one thing in that story is so peculiar, it almost has to be true:

    Ambrose claimed to Hitler, that Tabun was publicised as early as 1902 and that Sarin was patented, and that supposedly caused Hitler to rule out their use. That is very strange.

    For that answer to have that effect, Hitler had to have been primed.

    He already accepted that:

    1) Anything the Allies knew about, however obscure, they had produced, (or at least that the risk couldn’t be taken that they had not)

    2) The Allies could not have discovered anything new by themselves – Germany was the only place where new chemicals could be discovered.

    So that a go or no go decision would hinge on whether it had been published.

    What’s important about this story is that those premises are unstated. If the story was a total invention that would be pointed out, and explained, because those assumptions are illogical.

    Only if the story is true, do you not think to point out these unwarranted assumptions. You need both of them: Anything that was potentially known to the Allies was actually manufactured, or could and would be manufacctured quickly and be of limited advantage in the meantime; but the only things that could be known were the products of Germany’s highly skilled but highly secretive chemical and dye industry.

    There’s also the assumption that they lose more if both sides use it than if neither does

    Sammy Finkelman (db2a13)

  168. The passenger’s wife was on the plane with him. That’s another reason to resist. his lawyer said he lost two front teeth, although he seemed to mention the teeth last, after the concussion and the broken nose..

    Sammy Finkelman (6f9f42)

  169. The uses of lotteries for selecting people: (although not usually for bad things)

    http://www.conallboyle.com/ExsCurrent.html

    https://aeon.co/ideas/science-funding-is-a-gamble-so-lets-give-out-money-by-lottery

    Sammy Finkelman (6f9f42)

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