Patterico's Pontifications

3/24/2017

I Hope He Fails

Filed under: General — Patterico @ 7:15 am

As President Trump tries to strongarm Freedom Caucus members into voting for TrumpCare, I have just one thing to say:

I hope he fails.

Those words might sound familiar if you were following politics eight years ago. You youngsters may have to Google it.

Naturally, I want Donald Trump to succeed at the things he seeks to do that limit government and restore freedom. Appointing excellent Supreme Court justices and slashing regulation are some of the things I hope he succeeds in doing — and so far, so good.

But when it comes to putting political pressure on the few people in Congress who are for freedom, to get them to vote for TrumpCare, I do not want him to succeed.

TrumpCare retains the basic conceit of ObamaCare: that health care can be centrally planned. It must be voted down.

And then the GOP must deliver on what they promised: full repeal.

I want the country to succeed. And so, in this endeavor, I hope he fails.

[Cross-posted at RedState and The Jury Talks Back.]

286 Responses to “I Hope He Fails”

  1. Ding.

    Patterico (115b1f)

  2. Speaker Paul Ryan knows it is going to fail – by about 13 votes – but Donald Trump insisted on a vote by Friday. He really doesn’t understand politics. And maybe he needs for the vote to actually be taken to know where he stands.

    I am not sure what forces Ryan to give Trump the vote (except that Trump needs himm to sign any bill, and he needs Trump to lobby – but that has limited usefulness.)

    Trump said he’s move on to other things. Those things will godown even more to defeat.

    The only strategy that will work is to first pass something, on any subject, on which the Democrats are divided. They need to break the monolith.

    Otherwise Congress is in gridlock. Or maybe they can persuade the House to pass something that really, really, really, has no chance of becoming law and write the bill in the Senate. But they can use anything as a shell.

    Sammy Finkelman (5b43a3)

  3. this is a vote of no confidence in depraved Romney-fluffer Paul Ryan i think

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  4. Our esteemed host wrote:

    TrumpCare retains the basic conceit of ObamaCare: that health care can be centrally planned. It must be voted down.

    And then the GOP must deliver on what they promised: full repeal.

    Is there anyone here, including our host, who believes that Obysmalcare will be repealed without some form of replacement?

    I agree with his sentiment, but it is about as realistic as calling Bruce Jenner a woman.

    The coldly realistic Dana (1b79fa)

  5. Greetings:

    I think that I just noticed how, even in these benighted days, nobility shines through. And through. And through.

    11B40 (6abb5c)

  6. It sure seems like the Ryan strategy for what he used to call Better Care was designed to be signed into law by President Clinton/Bush with democrat support. Filibuster fear turned what should have been majority-minority fight into a republican civil war. Bad strategy and bad politics rarely if ever produces good outcomes. OTOH maybe this is the policy McConnell wanted all along, ehhh?

    crazy (d3b449)

  7. I mean Ryan needs Trump to sign any bill.

    Trump said he won’t sign any bill that gets rid of the requirement for nsurance to insure people with pre-existing conditions. Some members of the Freedom caucus came up with another thing – remove the Obamacare requirement that any insurance policy cover 10 essential benefit, like maeternity care, emergency care, wellness visits and mental health.

    In principle, if you are not going to require people to have insurance, there’s nothing wrong with allowing limited policies, except for two things – this could allow insurance companies to sell policies that amount to a species of fraud — if you’ve never encountered an insurance policy that didn’t ccver certain things, you’re not going to be looking out for it – and the fact that people might not be able to afford a reasonable policy, and if you are going to have a limited liability type of policy it probably should be catastrophic.

    I’m not here getting into the problem with third party payments for 85% or more of health expenses.

    And I see something else wrong – wellness vsits are largely a scam, although something like that can be of modest benefit, if done irregularly, maybe in small streaks, and they certainly shouldn’t be prioritized over emergency or unscheduled visits. If anything should be no charge or no co-pay, it should be the unscheduled visits, and then you have add a couple of checks and balances to it.)

    A lot of what is going on is being driven by a desire to game the Congressional rles so that abill can pass the Senate with only 51 votes. Ryan did’t want to eliminnate the essential benefis claause because of concern the Senate Parliamentarian iht reject the bill if it contained that provision
    (the idea here may be to have the Senate pass the identical bill, and have it go directly to the president without a conferene committee and a second round of votes. That wouldn’t happen anyway, but still)

    The members of the freedom caucus argue that eliminating the EHB benefits would reduce the cost of benefits y 3% to 17%, andso it counts asa a budgetary measurw Furthermore, the Senate can vote to overrule the Parliamentarian. The Wall Street Journal argues that of members of the freedom Caucus think a more conservative bill would emerge if this one is rejected they have more illusioons than the Hillary Clinton campaign had. You do have to winder what’s driving them.

    An Op-ed in the Wall Street Journal argues that theycould do alot more in reconsiliation if they just changed the way the credits worked, and applied the temprary provisions for 2018 and 219 to all the law. In 2018 and 2019 the amount of the tax credit varies according to the cost of the policy.

    Sammy Finkelman (5b43a3)

  8. Filibusters are like crying babies. They last until you give them what they want or they cry themselves out. McConnell chooses to avoid the schedule disruption crying causes.

    crazy (d3b449)

  9. Don’t let the perfect be the enemy of the good.

    AZ Bob (f7a491)

  10. #4. The only card the Freedom Caucus has that is real is “give us what we want or we embarrass you” …. but that does not translate into getting everything we want.

    We are going in the right direction so long as folks like the Freedom Caucus keep the pressure on and use the above leverage.

    But if we over play our hand here, we risk POTUS not going in the right direction but reaching our to Democrats (as idiot Noonan suggested).

    That is bad.

    The time for this fight is the Primary and it’d be great to put the lobster in the pot with cold water and gradually raise the heat. Including finding the most right wing for the R primaries in those Senate Seats held by Democrats in Trump states. Eradicating the country clubbers will take time, sadly.

    Blah (44eaa0)

  11. #3 tend to agree.

    Failure makes Ryan and Boehner look like idiots for voting to repeal Obamacare then but having no idea what would work with a POTUS who could help them.

    Ryan really looks like a clown and so does McCarthy and Scalise.

    Might work out though if they get terminated from their positions however.

    Blah (44eaa0)

  12. Anyway the whole thing is all wrong. And it’s based on compromises with reality, especially compromises with mathematics. It pretends that current levels of medical charges are affordable, at least if you buy insurance and they’re not. That’s the nub of the problem. You can’t fix the problem without, at least for now, increasing the federal budget. You just can’t.

    Trying to impose Medicaid cuts on states with the hope that they’ll do it right, and replacing the Obamacare subsidies with a fixed tax credit that is too low for many people, and more than enough for others is not going to get you to a beautiful system.

    A good bill is going to be a very complicated piece of “software.” You also don’t want to hinder medical progress.

    You need to have competition partially based on price – not between insurance companies but between medical providers – not theoretical competition but things have got to be brought to the point that they advertise on price. You have to have protection against surprise charges. You have to have the ability to copy and transfer medical records with no difficulties…You have to have inevitable costs paid for by some method other than insurance – if they are really inevitable, just pay for it using Medicare and fund it with a tax, preferably a consumption tax, maybe a limited carbon tax, which might get some Democraic votes. Now you need a little checks and balances here.

    Some other things, which are inevitable or necessary, like treatment for infectious diseases might as well be paid for off the top. Maybe also the 85th percentile of a basic doctor’s office and equipment, and medical education. We’re paying for all of that triple and more. Drug treatment issomething good but you need something taht works. Long term care should be paid for by giving a special checking account to the [erson or family – not an institution. Checks and balances are needed here, too.

    Encourage concierge medicine for general practitioners. And then maybe we’ll eliminate thes pointless doctor’s visits that are only for the purposes of updating medical records and the renewal of prescritions. Visiting nurses can take measurements. Doctors can prescribe by telephone.

    There ought to be a reason for a personal visit that’s not because that’s the way to get paid..

    And when they do occur the amount of time spent should vary and not be the same for each patient.

    People are so used to the way things are, that they don’t understand that’s not the way things have to work.

    Buy drug patents, subsidize and fund testing for approval and make it easier. And there;s more and more.

    Have insurance companies package some higher risk policies and auction off the requirement to pay the claims claims, in exchange for losing all the premiums from that person plus maybe 5%, to the lowest bidder with the government paying the cost of the reinsurance. I might have, lets; say, the government establish 10 or so standard medical policies (just for purposes of marketing, and comparison, and any kind of policy could actually be offered) And I would have the premiums be the same for everyone with only the deductibel varyng by risk, and the deductible could be as high as $1 million a year. No person would have to pay above a certain amount and there would be controls to make sure companies didn’t just do that to everyone. A person could shop among companies to see which gave him the lowest deductible

    Get rid of Medicaid – in fact get rid of anything that relies on what someone’s income was last year, this year, or next year. And administer this totally separate from the reguar tax system.

    Create a doughnut hole – because you don’t want people avoiding doctors in emergencies – Nicholas Kristof told a tragic story of a friend who died because he tried to avoid medical bills

    http://www.nytimes.com/2012/10/14/opinion/sunday/kristof-a-possibly-fatal-mistake.html

    I didn’t buy health insurance because I knew it would be really expensive in the individual policy market…In 2011…I didn’t go see the doctor because that would have been several hundred dollars out of pocket — just enough disincentive to get me to make a bad decision.

    Early this year, I began seeing blood in my urine, and then I got scared. I Googled “blood in urine” and turned up several possible explanations. I remember sitting at my computer and thinking, “Well, I can afford the cost of an infection, but cancer would probably bust my bank and take everything in my I.R.A. So I’m just going to bet on this being an infection.”

    When he finally did go to a doctor, it was diagnosed as as an infection. The thing is he was several seteps behind. He finally went to a urologist who tests tests, but before they came back his health really deteriorated. The upshot was it was disseminated intravascular coagulation, meaning you destroy your own blood cells, and it’s abbreviated as D.I.C. and medical students joke that it stands for “death is close.”

    So what I would have is some extra spending money that could only be used for medical exensesm cided as such by credit card companies, but couldn’t be used for insurance and maybe couldn’t all be spent at once, and that also would vanish if not used, but could be preserved also after two yeasr by buying medical gift cares or donating it to somebody else.

    So, anyway, not a deductibe but a doughbut hole, plus a method for everyone to dill the diounghnut hole, which would include postponing the normal Social Security retirement age by up to 3 years for that person.

    Sammy Finkelman (5b43a3)

  13. Blah (44eaa0) — 3/24/2017 @ 8:38 am

    Failure makes Ryan and Boehner look like idiots for voting to repeal Obamacare then but having no idea what would work with a POTUS who could help them.

    Well, that would be if you think they actually had some thoughts about the end game. That this was a problem, was always obvious. Members of Congress barely scratched the surface in coming up with propodssals for replacements.

    If there was a really good bill here, Donald Trump could sell it – maybe not easily to Congress because too man are locked in partisanship, but he could start campaigning for it and scare Conress into voting for it or saomething like it by about June, 2018.

    Trump knows the Ryan bill itself is no good – it’s just a placeholder. That’s why he’s getting ready to give up. He’s giving up faster than Obama did on slowing the rise of the oceans! The Markey Waxman bill (formally known as American Clean Energy and Security Act of 2009 passsed the House of Representatives by a by a vote of 219-212 on June 26, 2009 but was never brought to a vote in the filibuster proff Democratic Senate.

    This bill is placeholder and there is the pathetic hope that Democrats will allow them to improve it, actually the almost pathetic hope that they can figure out for themselves how to improve it.

    Sammy Finkelman (5b43a3)

  14. One would think that, under the AHCA, insurance companies could offer a variety of plans, some of them at the current Obumblecare standards, and customers could choose among them. If someone wants a plan including maternity coverage, he could choose to have it. I’m not sure why my 57 year old wife and I would choose maternity coverage.

    The Dana who sees the easy way (1b79fa)

  15. Paul Ryan’s really letting the country down

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  16. Simple response — you can’t govern.

    Politics is about the art of the possible. There is no fiat for legislation.

    Has the Freedom Caucus put up an alternative that can garner a majority of votes in the House? No?

    Why is it the problem of leadership then that they haven’t given the Freedom Caucus everything they demand? All that would mean is a bill that can’t garner a majority of votes in the House to pass. That’s an exercise in futility.

    The Freedom Caucus needs to learn to take “yes” for an answer. Prioritize the features they want, then decide how far down that features list the leadership has to go before they signal they will vote yes.

    They aren’t getting the whole list, because some items on that list will cost votes of Congressman who didn’t come into office on the back of Tea Party groups and the like. They have to go home and face voters too.

    “Free market” platitudes, while great for debate in classrooms, don’t solve real world problems of not enough health care service. I want “health insurance” to operate more like “insurance” too, rather than a government administered program. But that’s a destination, and right now we are on a path — or not, depending on whether the Freedom Caucus intends to simply be the donkey that sits on its rear haunches, or whether it decides to participate in the act of governing.

    shipwreckedcrew (56b591)

  17. The Republicans learned nothing from the Dems. Why would I want another rush job failure? Set healthcare aside, do taxes, do the wall and then spend some real time and thought on the Obamacare repeal, and come up with a solution based on conservative values and rooted firmly in free market principles.

    So yeah, on this I hope it all falls apart. In the end, the country will be better off if it does.

    Estarcarus (126cdd)

  18. With you on this. Ryan needs to step down, he is not leading.

    Steven Malynn (d29fc3)

  19. He’s not leading?? He’s got 200+ votes? He’s only “leading” if he can get the “Just Say No” Freedom Caucus to sign on? There are FC members supporting the bill.

    shipwreckedcrew (56b591)

  20. The hill the conservatives die on.

    The only people who benefit from a continuation of OBamacare are the deadbeats gaming the system.

    The people that are harmed are the conservatives core supporters — the self-employed who have been forced, by a law the conservatives will not change, into the most statist hell this country has.

    Fukk these posers. The House Freedom Caucus now owns Obamacare.

    Kevin M (25bbee)

  21. The HFC is voting with the Democrats. Useful idiots.

    Kevin M (25bbee)

  22. Ryan has the support of 200 of 250 members. Do you really think that anyone from the Freedom Caucus will get half the GOP votes to be speaker? Or even anyone they like? This ought to be a party disciple vote, and the HFC ought to be shorn of the committee assignments.

    What would Sam Rayburn do?

    Kevin M (25bbee)

  23. lol the slimy republicans what voted over and over to appeal obamacare showed they’re no better than bought and paid for thai tranny hookers when it’s time to fulfill their promises to the voters

    and we also learned the silly so-con abortion issue doesn’t move the dial anymore

    this even after all that sleazy over-wrought and dishonest abortion baby-bits porn we had shoved in our face for the better part of a year – the porn carly pupperoni thought was so hot and steamy she based a whole campaign on it

    which, that’s just kind of a yummy bonus here

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  24. ““Free market” platitudes, while great for debate in classrooms, don’t solve real world problems of not enough health care service.”

    – shipwreckedcrew

    You guys weren’t calling them “free market platitudes” when you were sitting in the peanut gallery. You were calling yourselves “conservatives” and saying that the free market solved all of our woes.

    Funny how quickly folks changed their tune on that one.

    Leviticus (efada1)

  25. ugh i mean *repeal* obamacare

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  26. When the history of this period is written, and when they assign blame for the GOP disaster of 2018, it will be that the conservatives pulled the temple down, for “principle.” Sadly, the conservatives will think that’s praise.

    Kevin M (25bbee)

  27. “So yeah, on this I hope it all falls apart. In the end, the country will be better off if it does.”

    – Estarcus

    The Trump presidency, you mean? Yeah, I agree. He’s doing a good job, towards that end. Hard to believe it’s not even April!

    Leviticus (efada1)

  28. Funny how quickly folks changed their tune on that one.

    1) There hasn’t been a free market in medicine in our lifetimes.

    2) I haven’t ever said there was, or ever will be.

    3) The loony tunes who are voting for a libertarian fantasy world are destined to be unhappy forever. Sadly, the rest of us are being carried along this time.

    Kevin M (25bbee)

  29. you’re wrong about that temple buddy

    that temple is a temple to Statism and Control and it’s very much still standing and Mitt Rommney’s inside touching himself

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  30. Mitt *Romney’s* inside touching himself i mean

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  31. Two months in and it’s declared a failure by Flo n’ Eddie!

    Immediate gratification!

    Colonel Haiku (8d00c4)

  32. You’d be hard-pressed to call it anything else.

    Leviticus (efada1)

  33. Or is it suicaine gratifaction…

    Colonel Haiku (8d00c4)

  34. “THIS IS THE PART OF OBAMACARE THE GOP “CAN’T” REPEAL: Obamacare Regulations Drove Up Premium Costs By Up to 68%.”

    https://pjmedia.com/instapundit/260732/

    Colonel Haiku (8d00c4)

  35. 3) The loony tunes who are voting for a libertarian fantasy world are destined to be unhappy forever. Sadly, the rest of us are being carried along this time.

    I could be wrong, Kevin M, I usually am but I think those “loony tunes” are not so much under the belief they can win a libertarian/free market insurance market as they believe by pushing back as hard as they can perhaps they can save some choice, some variance in mandated benefits and even some costs. Just sayin’.

    The leftists want ONE plan that’s great for everybody. Can’t happen. They know it can’t happen. But if they get that ONE plan they will declare victory and swear it happened.

    It is our job, the Republicans, Libertarians, conservatives, the moderates (at least those who care), the Deplorables and even the neverTrumpers to make sure that never, ever happens.

    Once again I’m going to point out the obvious to those who will not see: ANYTHING the left and the democrats want you should be against even if you hate Donald Trump.

    We should be trying to keep the left and the dems in a continuous state of apoplexy.

    https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-b-N0TvUEi5g/WNHMOGup07I/AAAAAAABHoQ/S6AhSYb9AF8y94MoV6DVY88BtbLYL9iywCLcB/s640/1%2BC7TXzZSVAAAqYJ_.jpg

    Rev. Hoagie® (785e38)

  36. So, the question becomes: When they return with a new bill, will it be something the HRC can support, or will it be something the Democrats can support? I’m betting the latter.

    Kevin M (25bbee)

  37. i bet these cowardtrash obamacare-loving republicans don’t even have the courage to vote

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  38. Yeah, Trump placating Democrats. Nobody saw that one coming.

    Leviticus (efada1)

  39. In this instance I hope he fails too.

    We are all Limbaugh.

    Harkin (b2805d)

  40. yes yes placate the democrats and plus we can have lots of delicious fetus abortions from planned parenthood

    let’s have a round of applause for Paul Ryan everybody!

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  41. The House Freedom Caucus now owns Obamacare.

    They can’t think past getting their virginity back. So they’ll have to raise the baby.

    nk (dbc370)

  42. They can’t think past getting their virginity back. So they’ll have to raise the baby.

    Exactly.

    Kevin M (25bbee)

  43. Once again I’m going to point out the obvious to those who will not see: ANYTHING the left and the democrats want you should be against even if you hate Donald Trump

    Except the Left wants Donald Trump…because as long as he is POTUS, he is the face and focus of the GOP, and everything wrong he does can be superglued onto the GOP, and everything perverse he does can be painted as the result of conservative government.

    kishnevi (870883)

  44. nonsense nobody has to raise a stupid baby they just have to vote the way they promised in the campaign

    this is not even hard it’s actually very simple unless you’re a greased-up and ready romney sex poodle named Paul Ryan

    then it’s really complicated

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  45. Look, am I the only person that has noticed Trump is much, much smarter than most people think?

    He wants the bill to fail.

    Why? because Obamacare, if left unchanged, is a failing enterprise anyway. His next move would be to enforce all the provisions that Obama suspended or delayed because they were so terrible – taxes on high end health care plans, taxes on medical devices, exceptions for major corporations. Trump has in in his power to make people feel the pain of Obamacare.

    How do you REALLY repeal Obamacare? You need the democrats and the republicans to work together on a bi-partisan solution. How do you achieve that? By proposing a repeal, having it fail, then enforcing obamacare in the most odious way possible. Republicans will be under enormous pressure to compromise, and so will Democrats. The one person who won’t be under pressure? Trump.

    Tenn (131b65)

  46. Malcontents, not leaders. Incapable of organizing to get what they want and happy only when they’re b!tching and moaning about those whose do. Cruz is the prime example. If he were on the Supreme Court, he’d only write dissents.

    nk (dbc370)

  47. Heck, an even better plan for Trump,

    Pass a simple bill that allows individual states to exempt themselves from the provisions of Obamacare. States are free to set up their own health care management solutions to replace Obamacare. Dems want Obamacare? They can keep it. But give it to them good and hard. Reps want it repealed? Great – craft a plan for yourself and quit whining about it.

    Win win win win.

    Again, start from a point of assuming Trump is always a pretty smart guy and you can often see where he is going.

    Tenn (131b65)

  48. They told me if I didn’t vote for Donald Trump, Obamacare would never be repealed – and they were right!

    Dave (711345)

  49. If you bend over backwards to make incompetence look like brilliance, you can feel better about it! Revolutionary!

    Leviticus (461891)

  50. Why does Ryan and Trump think that what the country needs is Obamacare lite? REPEAL OBAMACARE… Stick the replacement down Ryan’s throat…

    jkstewart2 (92abdb)

  51. What is ironic is that some of the NO votes are coming from areas that have high subsidies under Obamacare, and would lose them under RyanCare. It’s not the free market they want, but extra teat.

    Kevin M (25bbee)

  52. Ryan ought to propose an amendment that is a flat repeal of Obamacare. If it gets 100 votes, I’d be shocked.

    Kevin M (25bbee)

  53. I wonder if Trump realizes that, even if by some miracle this passes the House, it still needs to pass the Senate.

    Davethulhu (fab944)

  54. Reminder that the House had no difficulty passing 50+ bills to abolish Obamacare, while Obama was President.

    Davethulhu (fab944)

  55. Reminder that the House had no difficulty passing 50+ bills to abolish Obamacare, while Obama was President.

    Davethulhu

    I’m almost embarrassed for them.

    Dustin (ba94b2)

  56. Conservative ideologues never score points when they rant in abstracts about ‘free market’ solutions to healthcare. The whine has a bitter bouquet masking the true fear- socialism, that’s all. This remains a battle over legislating protections for levels of greed big pharma and insurance firms can get away with. Protecting the racket is the goal, not lowering the costs of Tylanol, band-aids or cancer treatments. That’s a kind of capitalism Capone would love.

    The primary objective of the healthcare system in the United States is to make money, not deliver cost-effective healthcare to the citizenry. Once this mind set shifts, the U.S. will adopt a single payer and/or two-tiered system and join the world in the 21st century. It is inevitable.

    ___________

    This legislation isn’t ‘TrumpCare.’ It’s ‘RyanCare.’ And for Trump, it’s not about healthcare at all. It’s about winning.

    Haven’t you been listening to him over the months? Haven’t you understood Trump by now? New Yorkers know his shtick inside out. Look at his heroes- Patton; MacArthur… look at his deals… even a loss is painted as a win… look at his denials of the truths and reality around him… they change like Florida weather to him… look at how he treats women [Merkel, not even a formal handshake]… He doesn’t give a damn about healthcare or the SCOTUS or much of anything beyond himself and what he sees in the mirror and the deals he can claim a win at to slap his name on. He’s all about winning– be it a news cycle, TV ratings, an argument, a Congressional vote or a general election.

    He’s a sick man, folks.

    In business his antics were chalked up to the eccentricities of the wealthy but if he was your daughter’s gym teacher he’d be under arrest. But he’s great entertainment. And that’s the thing– Americans don’t want to be governed– they wish to be entertained.

    So far, it’s been a great show to watch but not very promising for the reputation of the country.

    If this bill or any bill passes in Congress, Trump will claim the win. But when they fail, it’ll be labelled their fault- in this exciting episode, Ryan’s. Because, as he quipped for a TIME reporter, “I’m the President and you’re not.”

    “Don’t be a sap. You’re taking the fall.”- Sam Spade [Humphrey Bogart] ‘The Maltese Falcon’ 1941

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  57. Tenn (131b65) — 3/24/2017 @ 10:47 am

    Pass a simple bill that allows individual states to exempt themselves from the provisions of Obamacare. States are free to set up their own health care management solutions to replace Obamacare. Dems want Obamacare? They can keep it. But give it to them good and hard. Reps want it repealed? Great – craft a plan for yourself and quit whining about it.

    Obamacare relies on money coming from the federal government to pay subsidies for premiums and co-pays

    Calculated, without any careful attention to accuracy – I mean who’d want to do a thing like that? Not Obama! That way people might not get health insurance. And if they wind up owing money to the IRS? No problem! </b Or as small a problem as they could make it without changing the CBO score.

    Congress designed this so that it would be very difficult to collect – it can only be collected by withholding refunds, if someone's looking. People would only lose their refunds and in any case they'll blame some other politicians.

    …calculated or estimated on the basis of someone’s federal income returns, and to pay for an expansion of Medicaid (which the Supreme Court said had to be absolutely voluntary, the federal government could not threaten to kick any state out of the Medicaid program if it didn’t take the expanded version. Very few people get any individual insurance through Obamacare who don’t get subsidies. List price is unaffordable.

    Now there is a proposal to replace Medicaid with (a reduced or limited in growth) block grant, but that’s as far as that goes. The Ryan bill changes the amounts and the method of the subsidies. It does two other things. It eliminates the Obamacare taxes, including the 3.8% tax on unearned income if your total income is high enough, and it does something to promote the use of Health Savings accounts.

    Sammy Finkelman (5b43a3)

  58. #42 They can’t think past getting their virginity back. So they’ll have to raise the baby.

    LOL.

    Blah (44eaa0)

  59. Arguing about shrinking the spend called “Healthcare pie” requires reducing the size of the pie.

    Insurance is not about that but about who gets what slice and how they pay for it.

    Crossing State Lines is NEVER GOING TO REDUCE COSTS MEANINGFULLY. NEVER.

    Changing standards of care will.
    Allowing policies to be tailored to need will b/c then no incentive exist to consumer healthcare you don’t need.
    Changing Med Mal rules will b/c it lowers defensive medicine.

    And for this reason, I find the Freedom Caucus arguing about “bending the cost curve” most idiotic. Only limited amount of the discussion on this bill gets to the above.

    Blah (44eaa0)

  60. Kevin M (25bbee) — 3/24/2017 @ 10:13 am

    When they return with a new bill, will it be something the HRC can support, or will it be something the Democrats can support? I’m betting the latter.

    According to the New York Times, Trump thinks he made a mistake in agreeing to start wth Obamacare first, which is a decision he made during the transition. He really wanted to go with tax reform first, but Paul Ryan argued that he could pass a bill that the CBO would score as saving money so there would be more money for net tax reduction, so he agreed to go with Obamacare first, so he could later in the year get a tax bill more to his, or conservatives’, liking.

    So he’ll maybe try a tax bill next.

    Sammy Finkelman (5b43a3)

  61. Malcontents, not leaders. Incapable of organizing to get what they want and happy only when they’re b!tching and moaning about those whose do. Cruz is the prime example. If he were on the Supreme Court, he’d only write dissents.
    nk (dbc370) — 3/24/2017 @ 10:47 am

    **************

    So good. LOL!

    Rae Sremmurd (2fd998)

  62. corection to 13.

    So what I would have is some extra spending money [from tax credits, not connected to income tax forms, or paid for like Social Security] to that could only be used for medical expenses, [and would be the first dollars spent] coded as such by credit card companies, [ which is already done, so it wouldn;;t be toodifficult to administer, and many things sold in drug stores use bar codes and taht couldalso be set up fairly easily] but couldn’t be used for insurance and maybe couldn’t all be spent all at once, and that also would vanish if not used, but could be preserved also after two years by buying medical gift cares or donating it to somebody else.

    So, anyway, not a deductible but a doughnut hole, [the first expenses would be paid for this way, then there would be the doghnut hole, and only then insurance] plus a method for everyone to dill the dounghnut hole, which would include postponing the normal Social Security retirement age. [the ultimate collateral, and the government would lose some money

    There’s one thing I left out from my outline: People without insurance do not get charged the highest rate but close to the lowest rate, something like the 15th percentle. MAybe with an exception for medical tourists.

    Sammy Finkelman (5b43a3)

  63. they change like Florida weather to him

    No, the weather here is not so changeable as that.

    kishnevi (870883)

  64. One would think that, under the AHCA, insurance companies could offer a variety of plans, some of them at the current Obumblecare standards, and customers could choose among them. If someone wants a plan including maternity coverage, he could choose to have it. I’m not sure why my 57 year old wife and I would choose maternity coverage.
    The Dana who sees the easy way (1b79fa) — 3/24/2017 @ 8:54 am

    ****************

    It’s a distribution of future costs. I never get in a car wreck….can I choose an insurance plan for that?

    Rae Sremmurd (2fd998)

  65. BTW, a comment from someone at the music forum to which I belong

    Everyone is predicting this bill will get voted down in the House. Given the track record of punditry regarding Trump, I therefore expect it to pass.

    kishnevi (870883)

  66. A person is overweight–their risk is distributed. Should they pat more–perhaps.

    I don’t see piggy backing a separate “Maternity Plan”–maybe it’s possible but then–accidents happen. Unless–‘Planned Parenthood’ is something you think happens across the board.

    Rae Sremmurd (2fd998)

  67. expect it to pass.

    ********

    Like a kidney stone…in three phases.

    Rae Sremmurd (2fd998)

  68. Conservative ideologues never score points when they rant in abstracts about ‘free market’ solutions to healthcare. The whine has a bitter bouquet masking the true fear- socialism, that’s all. This remains a battle over legislating protections for levels of greed big pharma and insurance firms can get away with. Protecting the racket is the goal, not lowering the costs of Tylanol, band-aids or cancer treatments. That’s a kind of capitalism Capone would love.

    I respectfully disagree in large part.

    It obviously isn’t scoring enough points, but I think it’s still worthwhile to talk about the concept. I also think fear of socialism is a good thing, because of course we’re talking about the best way for health care to improve lives, and to those of us who understand the free market, it’s going to be more effective at that than subsidized folks exhausting supplies and driving up costs.

    The primary objective of the healthcare system in the United States is to make money,

    What the rest of the world should try to understand is that the goal of profit is what got them most of the awesome advances they enjoy using. Doling out generic stuff on the cheap just might be great in the short term, but if it’s not profitable to develop awesome new stuff, we do not get awesome new stuff. Granted, it would be absurd to say America drives all medical innovation. But we do quite a lot of the best of it. The more we advance the more the stuff that is expensive today becomes much more affordable tomorrow. If you redefine the industry as you’ve suggested, sot hat the point is not to make money, you will see stagnation. In the long term, that means a lower quality of life.

    Just because Europe and Canada like single payer systems doesn’t mean that it is a failure to progress as a society if we do not pattern ourselves after those countries.

    At any rate, it’s always amusing watching you mock the hell out of Trump after you were hoping he would win the election. I guess we all had to pick a lesser of two evils.

    Dustin (ba94b2)

  69. if pervy Mitt Romney’s special little guy Paul Ryan can’t repeal obamacare after running on it for 7 years how’s the incompetent little twit going to pass something like tax reform

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  70. I’m not sure why my 57 year old wife and I would choose maternity coverage.

    ***********

    Yep–but you both have a greater risk of arthritis, high blood pressure, diabetes, heart attacks–which is more expensive then the one day maternity stay.

    Rae Sremmurd (2fd998)

  71. I never get in a car wreck….can I choose an insurance plan for that?

    Rae Sremmurd

    If you drive very few miles, in country roads populated by few other cars, in a slow pickup-truck, where you’re willing to self insure as much as possible, so you carry liability insurance only, should you pay the same as someone commuting 100 miles each day in a sports car on urban freeways, with a history of collisions?

    I think both drivers in this example should be able to get bids from various insurers, and they decide how much it’s worth to take on the risk, and eventually something like a fair price emerges. But then, we do not use car insurance for our oil changes.

    Health insurance has devolved to this general way to pay for medical treatment, which is one of the reasons health care is rationed poorly (and yes, I know lawyers are another reason).

    Dustin (ba94b2)

  72. Has the Freedom Caucus put up an alternative that can garner a majority of votes in the House? No?

    Absolutely. Full repeal. It got a strong majority of votes in 2015.

    Patterico (82f8fa)

  73. repeal isn’t supposed to need a modifier

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  74. The people who claim discussions of free-market economics are ivory tower irrelevant solipsism are wrong and they are the problem. The free market is not ivory tower solipsism when it’s ignored and millions starve because of communism. The free market is as real as it gets. Y’all disdain it at your peril, and watch college and health care costs skyrocket as a result of government subsidies you insist on because anything else is “impossible” even if it passed both houses of Congress in 2015.

    “The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design.” — Hayek. Sometimes that demonstration is ugly and people die. This is as real as it gets.

    Patterico (82f8fa)

  75. @73. A vote w/no consequences. Abstracts, again.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  76. The plot thickens. CNN says Trump asked Ryan to pull the bill.

    crazy (d3b449)

  77. @73. A vote w/no consequences.

    I agree.

    Patterico (82f8fa)

  78. repeal isn’t supposed to need a modifier

    happyfeet

    But a lot of people insist that repealing a bad law without replacing it with something is a really terrible thing to do. Granted, in today’s world I’m just an idealist with views not shared by the vast majority of folks out there, but I don’t think the government needs to solve this issue even if it remains unsolved in many respects. I think before we do that, we need to decide if it’s better to deal with the problems on our own or through our states, versus the federal government having this intrusive reach over such a diverse and large country. And I think most of the time, the answer to these sorts of questions is that it’s actually not better for the feds to deal with it.

    In my ideal, I would self insure and pay a low premium for catastrophes. I would be happy to get checkups on my own dime, and have my weight and other health factors determine my price. To central planners, this reduces my capacity to have wealth transferred from me for use in getting votes, because the whole system is just completely tilted to the most desperate partisan politics point. That’s why the GOP appears to be paralyzed. They can’t really out-left the left, but they want to try buying some votes instead of just taking this opportunity to run the country so well that we see the light. It’s a fundamental lack of confidence in conservatism, and I think that battle was lost in the primary.

    Dustin (ba94b2)

  79. Breaking news: President Trump asked Speaker Ryan to pull bill without a vote.

    The journalist Dana (1b79fa)

  80. The free market is the best thing that ever happened to poor people in the history of the world. Let it work its magic on health care.

    Patterico (82f8fa)

  81. Breaking news: President Trump asked Speaker Ryan to pull bill without a vote.

    He’s not in control but tries to look as though he is.

    Patterico (82f8fa)

  82. Patterico, Dan Mitchell’s piece on the world’s most inefficient healthcare system revisits Milton Friedman and others advocacy for free market healthcare.

    crazy (d3b449)

  83. @69. Agree discussion is fine, Dustin. But it’s academic, abstract and distant from the realities of an ER, a body-strewn wreck along a freeway or CPR for a senior collapsed on a sidewalk — particularly in this instance.

    Fear of socialism is silly. If you mail a letter, you’re a socialist. But the issue ‘we’re talking’ here isn’t ‘healthcare’– and that’s the tragedy of this scam– but protecting the pharma and insurance racket. This isn’t about financing innovation or research– it’s about maintaining a gluttonous level of greed. They sheared the sheep too closely over the decades and the herd has finally felt the pain.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  84. Let it work its magic on health care,

    =sigh= Magic is slight-of-hand. Trickery. A scam.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  85. I’m not sure why my 57 year old wife and I would choose maternity coverage.

    Same reason you pay school taxes after your kids have grown– or you don’t have any to begin with.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  86. Our esteemed host told the truth:

    The people who claim discussions of free-market economics are ivory tower irrelevant solipsism are wrong and they are the problem. The free market is not ivory tower solipsism when it’s ignored and millions starve because of communism. The free market is as real as it gets. Y’all disdain it at your peril, and watch college and health care costs skyrocket as a result of government subsidies you insist on because anything else is “impossible” even if it passed both houses of Congress in 2015.

    “The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design.” — Hayek. Sometimes that demonstration is ugly and people die. This is as real as it gets.

    And therein lays the problem: nobody has the balls to vote for something which “is ugly and (causes some) people (to) die.”

    The Bluegrass State has been reliably Republican, but Obysmalcare and former Governor Steve Beshear’s (D-KY) expansion of Medicaid have provided health care coverage for a whole bunch of Kentuckians who didn’t have it before. If the GOP takes that away, the Republicans are afraid that the Democrats will regain control.

    The really ugly truth is that conservatives lost the 2008 elections, by a wide enough margin that the Democrats were able to establish the principle that the federal government would be ultimately responsible for health care coverage. A bad Supreme Court decision and Mitt Romney’s failure in 2012 locked that in place. The option of the federal government not guaranteeing health care has been taken off the table!

    If we are stuck with the federal government guaranteeing health care coverage, we’re going to have some version of Obaminablecare, or single-payer, and, quite frankly, I’d say that single-payer is the only way to go. It’ll be ugly, it’ll be messy, and health care quality and prompt access will decrease, but we’re already getting that now.

    It’s simple: just increase the Medicare tax rate to around 20%, where people now paying for insurance get to drop their private insurance payments, and maybe it’ll even out. That way, at least the working poor will have to pay something for their health care.

    We’ll all hate it, but it’s really the only thing left to do.

    The Dana from Kentucky (1b79fa)

  87. @82– LOL So by avoiding a defeat he can claim a win, right?!

    ‘Now, I’ll move on to tax reform,’ says Charlie Brown.

    Looks like Lucy.
    Smells like borscht.
    Tastes like… strawberries.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  88. DCSCA, let’s get beyond the bumper stickers for a second. It’s not a scam to find the free market’s ability to make everyone wealthier to be wonderful, and it’s not socialism to mail a letter. I’m not advocating an absolute end to government programs.

    You’re kinda talking about some kind of justice to get back at the pain the greed of insurance companies have caused, and hey, it sure isn’t good that insurance companies have special deals with an all powerful central government they lobbied. It should would be difficult for “greedy” (let’s say high priced and low performance) insurance companies to compete with a low premium, high deductible, ‘catastrophic’ plan that didn’t even cover my check-ups. In other words, the greed you’re talking about actually is a consequence of government interference in what health insurance can be. More competition would solve the problem really nicely.

    If you want to call me a socialist because I drove on the highway to the checkup I paid for myself, that’s cool.

    Dustin (ba94b2)

  89. @69- At any rate, it’s always amusing watching you mock the hell out of Trump after you were hoping he would win the election. I guess we all had to pick a lesser of two evils.

    Never make fun of the sick, Dustin. JR Ewing was a sick and devious dude as well but much more fun to watch at work than being lectured by Mawdie, Dustin. And that’s the point- the country wants to be entertained, not governed.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  90. .. and it’s not socialism to mail a letter.

    It is. So I’ll stop there.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  91. #28 – Uhm, no. But you like to be cute, so you knew that already. I say if you want a fair debate, that’s a fine thing. Or, we can go down the path you’ve chosen. Except, I don’t I’ll walk that path with you.

    Estarcarus (cd97e1)

  92. And that’s the point- the country wants to be entertained, not governed.

    DCSCA

    Hey, you’re clearly right here.

    It is. So I’ll stop there.

    DCSCA

    It’s not anarchy to walk my Christmas Card over to my neighbor’s house. It’s not socialism to let the government ship it to my grandma. The existence of some publicly owned services does not mean we’re living in a system where all means of production are owned by the state. It’s not really a cheap distraction when these ‘oh you like fire departments though’ responses are made to a free market argument. We do live in a world with a lot of grey areas in it, and sometimes we don’t have a good alternative to the government solution yet.

    Though I guess if we really want to get into the weeds I would say I don’t think we need a federal postal service anymore. We have email and we have powerful private competitors that actually want to bring mail to my door (the USPS doesn’t).

    Dustin (ba94b2)

  93. “We really came close today.” — Paul Ryan.

    Only counts in horseshoes and hand grenade practice, fella. As the President will teach you, the correct spin is pulling the bill was a WIN because it prevented a defeat, looza.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  94. Simple solution: Pass a repeal-only bill dated for March 17th, 2018. Then they have to have a replacement plan, in hand, or Obysmalcare is dead without one. They’ll get Democratic votes.

    The helpful Dana (1b79fa)

  95. This is Bernie Sanders thing, DCSCA? Is that why you were cheering Trump? I don’t say that to mock you at all… I think Hillary richly deserved to lose after that primary.

    Because I always found this ‘you’re already happy with socialism, just look at the government programs like the post office’ to be peculiar. It’s not like socialism is an infection that spreads. I’m not afraid of some socialism in my world. I’m frustrated by a lack of choice. I’m frustrated by control that doesn’t help, or leads to corruption or perverse incentives.

    The post office is a bit of a financial boon-doggle, but it would only be a real problem in my day to day life if the government banned alternatives. I get most of my stuff from UPS, most of my ‘mail’ in e-mail, so the USPS doesn’t bother me at all.

    Meanwhile, the government’s regulations on health insurance have really screwed with what kind of insurance folks can get, and really distorted the market. I suppose the postal service has distorted things too… I bet if the USPS were gone tomorrow, we’d see really innovative competition that would really make this ‘socialism’ of yours look stagnant. Scanned documents stored forever, ready instantly, self organized with junk mail screened? Once a week deliveries of only the stuff you want? I’d probably wind up asking for one or two items a year to reach my physically.

    Dustin (ba94b2)

  96. Simple solution: Pass a repeal-only bill dated for March 17th, 2018. Then they have to have a replacement plan, in hand, or Obysmalcare is dead without one. They’ll get Democratic votes.

    The helpful Dana (1b79fa)

    YES.

    Art of the deal! Make time your ally. They can easily do this, but then… then consequences. The GOP likes votes that have none.

    Dustin (ba94b2)

  97. That was the plan used in the sequester, and I liked how that worked.

    The very helpful Dana (1b79fa)

  98. “look at how he treats women [Merkel, not even a formal handshake]…”

    Oh please. Trump didn’t shake her hand when the media demanded it, he’s not a trained seal, but he did shake her hand.

    Try not to let the media snow you so often.

    http://www.redstate.com/tony-sarc/2017/03/18/trump-didnt-shake-merkels-hand-umm…-pictures/

    Leon (168f33)

  99. All of the repeal bills were political theater. There was never any serious plan by the majority of Republicans to repeal Obamacare. I don’t understand how everyone doesn’t understand this.

    Davethulhu (fab944)

  100. The koch brothers are celebrating for buying the house freedom caucus.

    mg (31009b)

  101. Leon, I hadn’t seen the handshake and I’m glad to see that story was BS. I recall when Clayton Williams refused to shake Ann Richards’s hand and I realized he was a petty man. We don’t need a petty president who can’t show respect to other folks who he happens to disagree with.

    Dustin (ba94b2)

  102. The chamber of commerce dolt donahue had his booty kicked.

    mg (31009b)

  103. Leon, looking into it more, I think you might want to see CNN’s coverage of this handshake thing.

    They show the same handshake you show, so I think they were fair to Trump. there’s also Merkel asking Trump if he wants to have a handshake photo, while reporters ask them to shake hands, and Trump clearly is refusing for no apparent reason. He comes across pretty much like a brat.

    I had only read abou tthis and was initially relieved to read your link, but I think Trump has to work on this stuff. He’s a diplomat too. He needs to be patient and professional when dealing with foreign heads of state, and while I actually am sympathetic that it must be annoying to have reporters bark commands at him for photos, and this stuff seems tedious, it looks bad for America if he isn’t up to this task. He asked for this job, after all.

    Dustin (ba94b2)

  104. Ryan should retire and enjoy deer hunting. Leading men is not his strong suit – unfortunately that is why he is speaker.

    mg (31009b)

  105. Trump- from the Oval Office… “It’s the Democrats fault– we couldn’t get any of their votes.”

    [Except the Republicans hold the majority in the House.] See. A loss is a win. But he learned a lot about ‘arcane rules’… but ‘both sides like Trump’…

    ‘I never said repeal and replace it… I never said in 60 days….’

    Sounds like crap.
    Smells like borscht.
    Tastes like… strawberries.

    “Captain, I’m sorry, but you’re a sick man.” – Steve Maryk [Van Johnson] ‘The Caine Mutiny’ 1954

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  106. there’s also Merkel asking Trump if he wants to have a handshake photo, while reporters ask them to shake hands, and Trump clearly is refusing for no apparent reason.

    *******************

    If you watched the debates and when he has co-press conferences he has to turn toward the person and lean over to them.

    It could be that he is simply hard of hearing and has to read lips to supplement his lack of hearing.

    Also the female voice–Merkel’s isn’t exactly as easily heard in comparison to the baritone that is someone like Netanyahu.

    Rae Sremmurd (2fd998)

  107. What the Republicans promised to do
    Is a promise that they all now rue
    Their bill was so sick
    They got beat with a stick
    And their voters are all yelling, “Boo!”

    The Limerick Avenger (1b79fa)

  108. When your bill is Obamacare Lite
    You know that something ain’t right!
    It’s a dead letter
    So try something better
    And show that you’re ready to fight!

    The Limerick Avenger (1b79fa)

  109. If these hacks were working a full 40 hour week, would we be worse off?

    mg (31009b)

  110. There was a young fellow from ‘consin
    Who didn’t have a very big Johnson
    He said he had balls
    But has started to fall
    And he just might as well be gone, son.

    The Limerick Avenger (1b79fa)

  111. It could be that he is simply hard of hearing and has to read lips to supplement his lack of hearing.

    Yeah, maybe. He looks so unhealthy in some photos and he’s quite old. I think this is part of the reason his behavior is erratic at times. Can’t read his mind so I guess I can’t tell if he heard the clear voices or if there was some other reason he was being awkward. But Trump’s a stage-craft kind of guy so he should understand that looking bad is bad even if it’s on accident. Perhaps he needs an earpiece so an assistant can help him out (seriously).

    Dustin (ba94b2)

  112. So when Trump went to Kentucky to rally for TrumpCare..and his TrumpCare lasts only a couple of days–can we call that Failure Theater at taxpayer’s expense?

    Rae Sremmurd (2fd998)

  113. Perhaps he needs an earpiece so an assistant can help him out (seriously).

    ************

    Rachel Maddow tweet symbolism–heh.

    One thing we know about Trump is that his vanity is……

    IOW, he would never allow that.

    Rae Sremmurd (2fd998)

  114. Looks like this Avenger creep got together with Happy Feet to have some kind of a scat party. Both are the same: low-IQ; illiterate; filled with hate.

    And deriving some sort of vindication that one of their own won the Presidency.

    Brian (a96dce)

  115. @90. No, Dustin. It’s a pragmatism over ideology. Those of us who lived in NYC and know Trump’s ‘MO’ from the 80’s can read his flamboyance pretty well. But the broader country only knows him from ‘Celebrity Apprentice.’ He’s a good show– and sadly, the culture of celebrity has been ballooning since actor Reagan days. America wants to be entertained and this guy is giving us a show and the media is lapping it up.

    It was inevitable that a modern businessman whose first, initial elected office was the presidency would occur. It’s been happening in Congress for decades. The country has been trending toward this ‘experiment’ for 45 years. The wild card is the businessman has turned out to be ‘eccentric’ at best– or more likely, suffering a sicknesss– at worst. Personally, I believe he has a personality disorder. His presidency is like a bad Mexican meal– it just has to make it’s way through the system. And it will be interesting to see which corporate business practices eventually work– and which get stonewalled by the structure of government. He’s not used to people saying no to him. And he may have learned something about government today– and doesn’t like it.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  116. Rachel Maddow tweet symbolism–heh.

    Recently I flew Southwest, which lets you watch live TV on your phone. I don’t watch TV at home so it was great to flip through the channels. I found Maddow by far the most entertaining, and I encourage conservatives to watch her go bonkers about the GOP and her paranoia about the Russians hacking the election and all sorts of conspiracies. Reading different points of view online just doesn’t convey emotion the same way as a sneering elitist desperately lying. Best part is you can tell she both realizes her own type of propaganda helped Trump happen, and she’s pretty happy Trump happened (much the same way Rush benefited so much from Bill Clinton).

    The left wants to see journalism as a sacred calling, bringing scrutiny to those in power, and if those in power are the Republicans, that means they can pretend their propaganda is journalism a lot better. I know this is off-topic but Maddow is a real treat though there’s no way I want to have TV news in my home reminding me that my philosophy has been rejected in most areas.

    Dustin (ba94b2)

  117. It looks like Brian’s upset
    But Alas! my eyes are not wet!
    He thinks I’m a flack
    But humor he lacks
    And my lines he just doesn’t get!

    The Limerick Avenger (1b79fa)

  118. 101. Davethulhu (fab944) — 3/24/2017 @ 1:33 pm

    All of the repeal bills were political theater

    Absolutely true. It’s now been exposed.

    There was never any serious plan by the majority of Republicans to repeal Obamacare.

    Stress on the word “plan” The majority stood for replace but what it was to be replaced with was something to determined later.

    I don’t understand how everyone doesn’t understand this

    Who says they don’t?

    Only members of Congress maybe pretended otherwise, and only people with a very hazy understanding of what was going on could think they were serious when they passed those bills.

    That doesn’t mean that the status quo is good. And it doesn’t mean this is all over. If it is all over, this entire session of Congress is over.

    Sammy Finkelman (6f9f42)

  119. It was inevitable that a modern businessman whose first, initial elected office was the presidency would occur. It’s been happening in Congress for decades. The country has been trending toward this ‘experiment’ for 45 years. The wild card is the businessman has turned out to be ‘eccentric’ at best– or more likely, suffering a sicknesss– at worst. Personally, I believe he has a personality disorder. His presidency is like a bad Mexican meal– it just has to make it’s way through the system.

    DCSCA (

    I don’t really see anything here I can disagree with. Putting aside the trends in our society that led to this, I think Trump has some severe need to prove himself, which is the very thing I hate to see in leaders. He needs to be the alpha to the extent that guys like Dubya didn’t.

    it will be interesting to see which corporate business practices eventually work

    Is Trump employing the practices that built his business? No. And of course he didn’t really build his business. And his business was built by having intense entanglements with the right people, often in government. “Fill the swamp”. He’s letting his own brand of ideologues run things, which is probably better than my initial fear, that he’s basically just a democrat pretending to be a republican.

    And he may have learned something about government today– and doesn’t like it.

    His default state is outrage so I’m sure there’s a lot of that. I believe that story about him ripping his wife’s hair out over his own hair implant problems. He is obsessed with his image, exposes himself to a lot of TV, and his presidency is widely considered a failure. I pray Trump has moral strength in a time that will be challenging to him, so that he doesn’t do anything radical that hurts anyone. the stakes are high and this is just an early example of how hard being president is.

    Dustin (ba94b2)

  120. Alan Rappeport

    Washington Correspondent
    4:14 PM ET

    Here comes Ryan.

    “Moving from an opposition party to a governing party comes with growing pains,” Ryan said.

    Ryan said they were getting very close to getting the bill passed.

    Ryan: “There remains so much we can do to help improve people’s lives, and we will.”

    Ryan says he is “really proud of the bill we produced.”

    The big questions are how weakened both he and Trump are going forward, and whether the Republican caucus be governed.

    Also, will they come back to health reform quickly or move on to taxes and infrastructure?

    This really shows how difficult all of that will be, particularly if Republicans need to abide by the Senate “reconciliation” rules that allow them to pass bills with a simple majority.

    “This is a setback, no two ways about it,” Ryan admits.

    =======================================

    Julie Hirschfeld Davis

    White House Correspondent
    4:17 PM ET

    Ryan says that he advised Trump to pull the bill, and that he agreed. Interesting, because Trump told us that he had directed Ryan to yank it. A lot of blame-shifting going on.

    Alan Rappeport

    Washington Correspondent
    4:17 PM ET

    “We’re going to go back and figure out what the next steps are,” Ryan says.

    Julie Hirschfeld Davis

    White House Correspondent
    4:19 PM ET

    Ryan says he doesn’t want to “cast blame” on the Freedom Caucus for this failure, but then essentially does. “There is a bloc of ‘no’ votes that we had – that is why this didn’t pass,” he said. “We were close – some of the members of that caucus were voting with us, but not enough.”

    ===================

    Alan Rappeport

    Washington Correspondent
    4:19 PM ET

    Ryan: “Obamacare is the law of the land.”

    =================================

    Julie Hirschfeld Davis

    White House Correspondent
    4:21 PM ET

    “We were probably doing the Democrats a favor,” Ryan said, adopting Trump’s argument that repealing Obamacare was essentially a political gift to Democrats because the law’s provisions are bad and getting worse. I’m [=JHD] thinking that Democrats feel like today was a pretty nice political gift.

    Alan Rappeport

    Washington Correspondent
    4:21 PM ET

    On future legislation, Ryan says that “yes, this does make tax reform more difficult.”

    Ryan says that “we’re going to go fix the rest of the tax code,” but that for now the Obamacare taxes will remain.

    Jonathan Martin

    Political Correspondent
    4:22 PM ET

    Striking to see Ryan not even bothering to spin some of the questions (very much).

    Alan Rappeport

    Washington Correspondent
    4:23 PM ET

    Ryan keeps saying that Republicans were very close to passing the bill, but he is not revealing how close they were.

    And he’s done.

    What a week for Trump. First the Comey testimony, then Democrats get ready to filibuster Gorsuch, and now the health bill gets shelved.

    Jonathan Martin

    Political Correspondent
    4:31 PM ET

    Fascinating statement from Senator Chuck Schumer, the Democratic leader. He begins not on policy, but process, ridiculing President Trump. “I have never seen an administration as incompetent,” he writes. His angle here: Demoralized Republicans do not show up in midterm elections.

    Sammy Finkelman (6f9f42)

  121. It’s a great day to be American.

    The actual goal of the corporatists, which is to say, the GOPe, is to eliminate the employer-provided health care plans. This is not to say “single-payer” is there preferred route, though. It is, however, the all-but guaranteed result.

    The clarity provided by this exercise is breathtaking to behold. Ryan and McConnell played DJT like a fiddle. Trumpelos got their wake-up call regarding DJT’s utter lack of conservative and principled leadership.

    The shocking aspect of all this to me is the complete absence of demands that the Senate modify its procedures to fit the modern realities of governance and the truly incredible breadth of oversight responsibility entailed. Our country simply can not function with the filibuster and personal holds in the Senate.

    Pogo rules! We are, as always, the enemy.

    Ed from SFV (3400a5)

  122. Alan Rappeport

    Washington Correspondent
    4:43 PM ET

    Today also proves John Boehner, who as House speaker had his own share of struggles with the House Freedom Caucus, correct

    Alan Rappeport

    Washington Correspondent
    4:44 PM ET

    He said a month ago that he did not think Republicans would manage to repeal and replace Obamacare.

    A safe bet that he’s enjoying a glass of red wine somewhere and happy not to have to deal with this.

    Trump is speaking now from the Oval Office. He is flanked by the health secretary, Tom Price, and Vice President Mike Pence.

    “We were very, very close,” Trump says.

    Trump goes on to assail Democrats for not helping him with the vote. He says that Obamacare is exploding and will only get worse.

    Trump said the second and third phases of his plan would have been a great bill.

    “Again, I think what will happen, Obamacare unfortunately will explode,” Trump says. “It’s going to have a very bad year.”

    Trump says it would be “really good” if Democrats go together with him to make a “real bill.”

    “Just remember, this is not our bill, this is their bill,” Trump says of Democrats.

    Trump: “I worked as a team player and would have loved to have seen it pass.”

    Trump says “it certainly was an interesting period of time.” He adds: “We learned a lot. We learned a lot about loyalty.” [Who should they be loyal too? The president, tgeh Speaker,or the public? SF].

    Trump says he will probably be moving to tax reform, “which I’ve always liked.”

    Trump: “I like Speaker Ryan. He worked very, very hard.”

    “The big tax cuts, and tax reform, that will be next,” Trump says.

    Asked if it is right to let people struggle if Obamacare is collapsing, Trump says that nothing can be done right now. “You’re going to have explosive premium increases.”

    Trump says he was 10 to 15 votes short on the health bill in the House.

    And we are wrapping things up. Thanks for joining!

    Sammy Finkelman (6f9f42)

  123. I found Maddow by far the most entertaining, and I encourage conservatives to watch her go bonkers about the GOP and her paranoia about the Russians hacking the election and all sorts of conspiracies. Reading different points of view online just doesn’t convey emotion the same way as a sneering elitist desperately lying. Best part is you can tell she both realizes her own type of propaganda helped Trump happen, and she’s pretty happy Trump happened (much the same way Rush benefited so much from Bill Clinton).

    ********************

    The kids at Reddit sucked me into watching the first couple of minutes of her big reveal as they had it streaming live on youtube. I don’t even know what the channel for MSNBC is.I really could not last that long.

    Anyways just a really good observation.

    As an aside just think how easy it was for Trump to dominate or get the Right’s media to sell out?

    Liberal media has so little representation of Conservative thought that it has been driven off to radio and a few hours of FOX.

    If you bought out Limbaugh,and Hannity you had hours of radio time and prime-time television right there. ( You can just see the three of them chomping on cigars down in Palm Beach.)

    I also think Trump used the Liberal media’s hatred of the Republican party to –essentially help him destroy our primary. He has a certain derangement syndrome that he shares with them.

    That’s why I think someone in his campaign is really good at using hatred to manipulate people, hence all the third grade name calling. Bannon was using those nicknames before Trump was.

    Rae Sremmurd (2fd998)

  124. Julie Hirschfeld Davis
    White House Correspondent
    4:21 PM ET
    “We were probably doing the Democrats a favor,” Ryan said, adopting Trump’s argument that repealing Obamacare was essentially a political gift to Democrats because the law’s provisions are bad and getting worse. I’m [=JHD] thinking that Democrats feel like today was a pretty nice political gift.

    ***********************

    Sammy

    Won’t they just blame Republicans–the party in power?

    Rae Sremmurd (2fd998)

  125. “I can’t read what you wrote! That means YOU’RE illiterate!!!eleventy”
    — brain dead brian

    “I’m smarter than brain dead brian and myself, combined.”
    — The Limerick Avenger
    (When dealing mathematically with their two IQs, it’s a true statement.)

    John Hitchcock (48f0cb)

  126. https://news.grabien.com/story-trump-what-will-happen-i-think-obamacare-unfortunately-will

    I hate being right.

    Feel free to assume Trump is incompetent. You can feel good about yourself while he picks your pocket. He has continually defied expectations, and continued to succeed when everyone has written him off. How many times can you get played before realizing Trump is a player?

    And, I didn’t vote for Trump, don’t like him much, and don’t want to defend him to you yahoos. But when a incompetent boxer keeps getting “lucky” with his punches, at some point, don’t you wonder if more than luck is involved? That perhaps there is no small measure of skill?

    Tenn (131b65)

  127. I also think Trump used the Liberal media’s hatred of the Republican party to –essentially help him destroy our primary. He has a certain derangement syndrome that he shares with them.

    That’s why I think someone in his campaign is really good at using hatred to manipulate people, hence all the third grade name calling.

    That whole thing is where I completely read this country and this party wrong. Why did that work? Why does the guy go from comparing Carson to a child molester to insulting Ted Cruz’s wife, to saying “Lyin’ Ted” every ten seconds in his used car hustler voice, and people actually vote for him?

    It’s not much consolation at all that Trump is now flip flopping on amnesty or Obamacare. I don’t even think the people who voted for Trump knew why they were voting for him, but it definitely wasn’t immigration or political philosophy.

    I disagree with DSCSA’s mexican food analogy. We got here steadily, not as a reaction, but as a growing tumor of short attention span populism. Obama wasn’t really qualified for the presidency, but he told a smooth speech in 2004 and looked the part while being a president for only one party. Trump is an evolution of the concept, just to a cruder taste. The next guy will probably be more polished, but I don’t think we’re going to repent as a nation from this path.

    So while politics are interesting and they are fun, I think they are also a lot like the weather and we should just endure, seeking our happiness and our hope elsewhere. And for a guy like me who has been a politics geek for decades, it’s a real relief to see things this way.

    Dustin (ba94b2)

  128. this is all on Paul Ryan

    Mitt Romney’s pervy little sex poodle passed countless bills to repeal obamacare

    but when it counted he effing choked

    and daddy romney doesn’t like it when his little poodle-boy chokes

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  129. The Republicans couldn’t repeal Obamacare (so far) because they didn’t have any idea what they wanted to replace it with, a fact that they studiously ignored. And if they would have gotten the ball rolling, it would not have gotten more than a few steps further along.

    Sammy Finkelman (5b43a3)

  130. Replace Obamacare with what was in place prior to Obamacare. We already know that system is far better than Obamacare.

    John Hitchcock (48f0cb)

  131. Trump sent Maddow his tax returns.

    Trump intentional was vague about being bugged.

    Trump sent out the golden showers garbage.

    He has a history of doing this. Exactly this kind of thing. Look it up. he laughs about it.

    “Don’t throw me in the briar patch” President Trump.

    Tenn (131b65)

  132. And, I didn’t vote for Trump, don’t like him much, and don’t want to defend him to you yahoos. But when a incompetent boxer keeps getting “lucky” with his punches, at some point, don’t you wonder if more than luck is involved? That perhaps there is no small measure of skill?

    Tenn

    It’s a good thing you don’t want to defend him, because you haven’t. Trump lost. Trump said what he wanted to happen, and what he was going to lead us to. And he failed. And it’s like reading a North Korean news feed to read you guys tell us how it’s amazing how lucky this strong “boxer” Trump is “punching” with “skill.”

    He has continually defied expectations, and continued to succeed when everyone has written him off.

    Yeah, I get it. He won the election. Most voters in the primary and general didn’t want him to be president, but we have a pretty weird system and the vote loser won anyway. And most Americans do are disappointed in his performance, but he remains president. He won, congrats. At some point you guys need to get beyond that. You got the job, Trump. Stop talking about how amazing you are for getting the job. Obamacare needs to be repealed, just like you promised.

    We will immediately repeal and replace ObamaCare – and nobody can do that like me. We will save $’s and have much better healthcare!

    — Donald J. Trump (@realDonaldTrump) February 9, 2016

    Campaign website, March 2016: “On day one of the Trump Administration, we will ask Congress to immediately deliver a full repeal of Obamacare.”

    Campaign website, August 2016: “One of my first acts as President will be to repeal and replace disastrous Obamacare, saving another 2 million American jobs.”

    “It’s going to be so easy.”

    Let’s just admit that Trump has a low opinion of those who believed these promises, a low opinion of the people who voted Trump, and has no realistic plan to repeal Obamacare or do the other things he promised to accomplish by now (namely defeat ISIS).

    Dustin (ba94b2)

  133. I can’t see.
    (puts finger in light socket)

    I can’t see and I’m now being electrocuted.
    —–Well pull your finger out of the light socket.
    If that’s all I do, I still won’t be able to see.
    True, but at least you won’t be getting electrocuted.
    I can’t pull my finger out of the light socket until I come up with a solution that allows me to see.
    Okay, fool. Electrocute yourself until you’re dead. Won’t have to worry about seeing, then. Just don’t blame me.

    John Hitchcock (48f0cb)

  134. Tenn, what successes? What punches landed?

    The only positive has been in staffing…and a good many of those are yet to be processed through the Congressional mill.

    kishnevi (10660e)

  135. Trump sent Maddow his tax returns.

    Trump intentional was vague about being bugged.

    Trump sent out the golden showers garbage.

    He has a history of doing this. Exactly this kind of thing. Look it up. he laughs about it.

    “Don’t throw me in the briar patch” President Trump.

    Tenn

    I doubt he had anything to do with the golden showers thing, but the rest of it I tend to agree Trump is often cynically using to lie to the American people, change the subject from his various scandals and failures, and this is the best way he knows how to manage the American government, protected by the lives of millions of American military members.

    Let me ask: if Obama were cynically exploiting the birther scandal to divide our nation and paint his critics as racist while distracting us from other issues, would you praise that?

    Dustin (ba94b2)

  136. I can’t see and I’m now being electrocuted.
    —–Well pull your finger out of the light socket.
    If that’s all I do, I still won’t be able to see.

    LOL. Basically. Just repeal the thing, or at least sunset it. Trump doesn’t push this because he doesn’t want it. When he promised repeal, he wasn’t sincere.

    Dustin (ba94b2)

  137. republicans, this is who they are

    they lurv them some obamacare they do it all up in it

    they do that nasty obamacare all up in it

    and they love it so much

    this is who they are

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  138. Mr Feet wrote:

    this is all on Paul Ryan

    Uhhh, no. Mr Trump promised us a great, good, amazing health care plan that covered everyone, bigly, but he never presented it.

    The Dana who voted for Gary Johnson (1b79fa)

  139. TRUMP: “Everybody’s got to be covered. This is an un-Republican thing for me to say because a lot of times they say, ‘No, no, the lower 25 percent that can’t afford private. But—’”

    PELLEY: “Universal health care.”

    TRUMP: “I am going to take care of everybody. I don’t care if it costs me votes or not. Everybody’s going to be taken care of much better than they’re taken care of now.”

    PELLEY: “The uninsured person is going to be taken care of. How? How?”

    TRUMP: “They’re going to be taken care of. I would make a deal with existing hospitals to take care of people. And, you know what, if this is probably—”

    PELLEY: “Make a deal? Who pays for it?”

    TRUMP: —the government’s gonna pay for it.

    Say Happyfeet, what do you think of this idea?

    Dustin (ba94b2)

  140. I’m just impressed that Mr Hitchcock can hold his finger in a light socket and still talk to us. :)

    The electrician Dana (1b79fa)

  141. 127. Rae Sremmurd (2fd998) — 3/24/2017 @ 2:55 pm

    Won’t they just blame Republicans–the party in power?

    127.Julie Hirschfeld Davis thinks that Obamacare functions well, but a repplacement might function better and be more to their liking, so what just happened ia gift to the Democrats. Ryan thinks Obamacare will implode, and that there would have been something better, so repealing it was actually a gift to the Democrats because nobody sees the disaster they created.

    Now, if things go wrong now, the Democrats will blame anything wrong on any changes or refusals to change thatthe Republicans made or did not make.

    One of the big problems is that insurance companies that profited were supposed to compensate the insurance companies that lost – but as whole they are not making money on the exchanges.

    What HHS Secretary Price will probably do is, on the one hand, remove some of the requirements essental for a policy listed on the exchanges, which will make policies a bit cheaper, but on the other hand, he will not ask for, and Congress will not appropriate, and neither will he claim that he can move some money around to subsidize insurance companies (and the defense against some lawsuits will be dropped) and insurance companies will be out money. And they won’t continue.

    Democrats will try to blame any faults on Republicans sabotage, but this will not work, but on the other hand Republicans, as a party, will be in a lot of trouble for not doing anything about this.

    Sammy Finkelman (5b43a3)

  142. i think there’s no way to pass *anything* if republicans are too cowardly to even go on record with a vote

    all these republicans what sat on their hands

    they’re as cowardly, as shameful, as repugnant, and as detestable as ex-military jack-off John McCain

    and that’s setting the bar really high

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  143. Sammy you do raise a fascinating point. It would be interesting if the GOP passed Obamacare-lite, instead of sticking with principles (I know, I know, virtue signaling). Then, as the system collapses as it would have anyway, Obama actually comes out looking great, having no blame, and the GOP looks awful, getting no credit.

    It’s the absolute silliest way to respond if the GOP meant what it’s said since 2010. If you reject the other side’s philosophy, you either deviate from that, or you let them own their mistakes. You don’t just copy their work and adopt a mistake as your product.

    Dustin (ba94b2)

  144. At this point, the lovely Nancy Pelosi ought to be filing a bill which repeals the Affordable Care Act and replaces it with making Medicare cover everybody. Or, even better, Chuck Schumer ought to do it in the Senate, where he needs only three Republican votes.

    The politician Dana (1b79fa)

  145. 145. Yes that isn’t nice. Ryan is preventing a record of where each member of Congress stands, so no group can incopprate it in its ratings.

    The Dana who voted for Gary Johnson (1b79fa) — 3/24/2017 @ 3:19 pm

    Mr Trump promised us a great, good, amazing health care plan that covered everyone, bigly, but he never presented it.

    I don’t believe it is impossible to come up with such a thing, but it requires some thinking, like going to the moon. The thing is, his nominee for HHS, hadn’t written such a thing.

    Sammy Finkelman (5b43a3)

  146. 147. The politician Dana (1b79fa) — 3/24/2017 @ 3:27 pm

    At this point, the lovely Nancy Pelosi ought to be filing a bill which repeals the Affordable Care Act and replaces it with making Medicare cover everybody. Or, even better, Chuck Schumer ought to do it in the Senate, where he needs only three Republican votes.

    Only Bernie sanders would do that.

    Such a system would work well for about 5 to 8 years – then you get into the centrally directed cost cutting. As it is, Medicare is going broke in the long run.

    Sammy Finkelman (5b43a3)

  147. Thanks for the answer.

    I did not know this part:

    One of the big problems is that insurance companies that profited were supposed to compensate the insurance companies that lost –…

    Rae Sremmurd (2fd998)

  148. Come on, Dustin, you know darn well the car companies copy each other’s mistakes and make big bank off of the copies. How else would everybody be driving Chrysler Edsels, GMC Edsels, Fiat Edsels, Yugo Edsels, Maserati Edsels and Triumph Edsels today?

    John Hitchcock (48f0cb)

  149. Sammy you do raise a fascinating point. It would be interesting if the GOP passed Obamacare-lite, instead of sticking with principles (I know, I know, virtue signaling). Then, as the system collapses as it would have anyway, Obama actually comes out looking great, having no blame, and the GOP looks awful, getting no credit.

    ****************

    Yep. Reminds one of the ole Allah Akbar saying–“It’s a trap!”

    Rae Sremmurd (2fd998)

  150. Gohmert for speaker

    mg (31009b)

  151. I can see ryan building a house with a ball-peen hammer.

    mg (31009b)

  152. paul ryan you had one job

    you’re a failure and a putz

    you need to go home and focus full time on keeping your wife off the tinder

    there’s no shame in that

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  153. Mr Finkelman wrote:

    Such a system would work well for about 5 to 8 years – then you get into the centrally directed cost cutting.

    We have a single-payer system in place, in the Veterans’ Administration hospitals, and we were shocked, shocked! when they were doing just that.

    Believe me, I see single-payer as a lousy system, one which will leave Americans with poorer, drawn-out care, but I also see it as the only logical way to provide “universal” health care coverage. Sachi ab Hugh wrote about her father’s treatment under Japan’s single-payer system, and he got great care . . . because he also had three private insurance policies, and his family had ‘connections.’ Those dependent just upon single-payer, not so much.

    The realistic Dana (1b79fa)

  154. repeal and replace
    race to pull collective junk
    from jaws of defeat

    Colonel Haiku (8d00c4)

  155. Obama, he got the last laugh
    Trump, he’s got a big gaffe
    Just face facts, dude
    We are so screwed
    Rates will go up by half!

    The Limerick Avenger (1b79fa)

  156. “Today was a victory for all Americans”

    — Hillary Clinton

    There’s your first clue…

    Colonel Haiku (8d00c4)

  157. pervy Mitt Romney’s leg-humping poodleboy Paul Ryan

    he really thought

    he really truly thought

    in the end he would have the votes

    and that’s the most damning thing of all

    he’s been humping Mitt’s leg so long he’s lost all touch with reality

    and I don’t know how we help him

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  158. Well this is a government that promised WWII, Korean and Vietnam vets healthcare and when they got too old–and therefore too expensive– they dumped them into Medicare.

    That was probably the first move towards single-payer–if that’s what Bill Clinton was up to back then.

    Rae Sremmurd (2fd998)

  159. 6 1/2 years for these hacks to come up with this! I am so tired of looking at these geniuses give me the finger evertime they screw the pooch.

    mg (31009b)

  160. The usual suspects are mincing
    Their sincerity not too convincing
    They play ball like Pelosi
    I’ll be Jim Fregosi
    Take bat to their balls leave ’em wincing

    Colonel Haiku (8d00c4)

  161. this is EXACTLY what John Kasich wanted

    obamacare all up in it

    John Kasich he says ooh ooh ooh it is so good

    if you live in Ohio and your ass ain’t on medicaid

    you ain’t livin my friend

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  162. Bannon for speaker

    mg (31009b)

  163. vets lol

    they got screwed hard huh

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  164. They’ll visit their Doc balls like grapefruit
    Be treated for pain file a lawsuit
    For weeks they’ll be sore
    Want to even teh score
    End up with their summons up poop chute

    Colonel Haiku (8d00c4)

  165. Hillary’s happy, and so’s Chuck
    Ryan? He’s down on his luck
    Welfare people are glad,
    Working people are sad,
    And the country really is f***ed!

    The Limerick Avenger (1b79fa)

  166. sleazy Justin Amash takes a victory lap

    we get to keep obamacare!

    but you can bet your bippy monday morning he’ll be back to work

    working full time cramming indolent syrian terror rapefugees all up in it!

    the conservative movement marches on

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  167. I really wish that
    Trump had come up with something
    Instead of this s***

    The Haiku Avenger (1b79fa)

  168. Just send to Trump any of the repeal bills they sent to Obama to be vetoed.
    System disappears.
    Free market takes over.

    Then either live with the results, or make limited changes to force more competition across the board.

    Evan Carter (9783e9)

  169. Mr. Carter where were you like two hours ago

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  170. fetid victory
    so sour on Democrat tongues
    enjoy while they can

    Colonel Haiku (8d00c4)

  171. it’s a sad day but if you want a giggle

    think about how the conservatrash freedom caucus stood their ground

    just stood there and let planned parenthood continue butchering the luckless baby fetuses ad infinitum

    because principle!

    they are good, good people

    salt of the goddamn erf

    albeit a bit ruff on dem lil babby fetuses

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  172. “Sometimes you’re playing Fantasy Football and sometimes you’re in the real game,” he admitted. “We knew the president, if we could get a repeal bill to his desk, it would almost certainly be vetoed. This time we knew if it got to the president’s desk it would be signed.” – Joe Barton (R-TX)

    Davethulhu (fab944)

  173. Around teh Beltway there’s a rumor
    involving a Senator Schumer
    Plies his trade like Mad Hatter
    Cuz he lacks teh grey matter
    On his neck not a head it’s a tumor

    Colonel Haiku (8d00c4)

  174. From Davethulhu’s unsuccessful run for elected office in Poland in 2010… https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:20100701_cthulhu_poster.jpg

    Colonel Haiku (8d00c4)

  175. So, there’s this drunk guy driving down the road.

    He’s swerving, running red lights, sideswiping cars. Blood alcohol level of 0.35

    Everybody is coming to a halt to avoid him.

    But not this one guy. Our hero. HE’S GOT PRINICPLES. He knows that he has the RIGHT to drive through that green light, and he’s going to insist that the world operated according to the rules that he lives by.

    So he goes though the green light as our drunk approaches and there’s a horrific crash. Three bystanders are killed.

    And our hero is so astonished when he gets blamed for insisting on his principles.

    Kevin M (25bbee)

  176. Haiku–

    Throat cancer is almost certainly curable so long as nothing has migrated to the lungs.

    Kevin M (25bbee)

  177. Well, Trump had a plan to START the repeal of Obamacare, using the art of the possible. But, beginning the process of ratcheting back a complex monstrosity was not enough for conservatives. Their principles demand we start over from 65 years ago, or nothing.

    So, we get nothing. Enjoy your Obamacare people. If you don’t like it, blame conservatives. Trump tried.

    Leon (168f33)

  178. obamacare kills babies

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  179. Free market takes over.

    The free market in health care? BWAAAAAHAHAHAHA!

    Yeah, sure. Except of course for Medicare, Medicaid, and all public and private employee plans which are all (mostly) paid for by someone else.

    Kevin M (25bbee)

  180. To those that think the Conservatives are not going to take the blame for this, you are going to hate the next few days. Meanwhile the Democrats are spiking the ball. Wanna guess who won?

    Kevin M (25bbee)

  181. obamacare won

    life is good for obamacare

    it’s all up in it

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  182. It’s kind of interesting to see who opposed this.

    Let’s take Don Young (R-Alaska). Not a man known for principle, but perhaps the fact that residents of his state get, on average, $300 more per month in subsidies than the next highest state might be part of the reason.

    Kevin M (25bbee)

  183. “Yeah, sure. Except of course for Medicare, Medicaid, and all public and private employee plans which are all (mostly) paid for by someone else.”

    Private employee plans are paid for by the employer, as part of the employees compensation for work. My employer has a medical plan, but since I’m covered better through my wife’s employment, I opted out of my employer’s plan, and am paid the difference via a few dollars per hour invested in our retirement plan instead (a tax avoidance strategy we agreed on).

    Other than that, yeah.

    Leon (168f33)

  184. @130. Well, Dustin, it’s not just idle chatter… Boring stuff today but was of interest in my younger days. I have actual data– researched each individual Congressional critter for 200 years of Congress and the Executive for my college thesis- a requirement for graduation regardless of credits- tedious stuff and took damn near a year to complete going through each Congressional Record per Congress.

    What piqued interest and approval for the project by the college review board was what could be the motivation for Heinz ketchup heir John Heinz spending roughly $25/vote (in 1976 dollars) to run and win a U.S. Senate seat. That was an absurd amount to spend in 1976 dollars per vote then. So why– was he bored? Power hungry? Ego? He could buy all the influence he needed as it was w/o running for office.[He was later killed in a copter crash and his widow married John Kerry.]

    It was a long and intricate project but generally speaking graphing out the data over 200 years showed a wave of agrarians early in the nation’s history– farmers– which made sense, then a steady rise in lawyers– legislators by nature- which weeded out the farmers– fit well but then, post-Civil War though the industrial era and into the 20th century- a steady rise in businessmen began to appear as lawyers leveled off. The business backgrounders began to rise in the late 1960s and early 1970s while lawyers slowed even more. The projections then showed that within 30 years or so the lines would cross.

    The costs of running for office was clearly a factor in this. At first the data indicated business interest in political office was to influence legislation directly but the rise of businessmen assuming their initial elected office later showed campaign financing and– professional boredom, ego and a desire to attempt to shape to operate government like their businesses– were clear motivators. The conclusion when discussing the data w/the college board was one of the major parties would eventually pitch a candidate who was a businessman to run for president as their initial elected office- without any previous elected office experience- chiefly because he could afford to finance the run w/o being beholden to special interests. Trump bears it out. The wild card is that he’s clearly suffering from an illness– likely a personality disorder. Boring stuff I know.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  185. “The wild card is that he’s clearly suffering from an illness– likely a personality disorder.”

    Lemme guess, you aren’t a psychologist, but you stayed in a Holiday Inn last night.

    Leon (168f33)

  186. Leon, to begin with, there is no tax on this income. That’s a huge subsidy, and unlike the Obamacare subsidy it doesn’t go away if you make a middle-class income. Further younger workers subsidize older workers in every employer plan. To top it off, there is no connection between cost and demand, making medical inflation astronomical.

    Let’s have a free market. No subsidies. Every worker is taxed on the AGE-WEIGHTED cost of his plan. Let’s get rid of Medicare and Medcaid. Everyone has to pay directly for services rendered, or pay directly for insurance that takes into account their disabilities, diseases and other potential costs.

    Just like 1925. Those were the days!

    Kevin M (25bbee)

  187. And, it’s kind of funny, Leon, how you decry subsidies, then attempt to MAXIMIZE your federal tax subsidies. Pretty hypocritical.

    Kevin M (25bbee)

  188. I’m pretty sure DCSCA is suffering some sort of OCD, perhaps Tourette syndrome, but I don’t want to bore you with my layman analysis.

    Leon (168f33)

  189. .We have a single-payer system in place, in the Veterans’ Administration hospitals, and we were shocked, shocked! when they were doing just that.

    Actually, that was a single-provider system. Most of the plans to “fix” the VA seen to revolve around letting vets use VA money to pay for treatment at non VA doctors and facilities.

    kishnevi (74d877)

  190. Not boring at all, DCSCA. Running for prez out of the box also eliminates that pesky record that plagues the real guys. I recall how Rubio was hit for flip flops far more slight than Trump’s fans now defend.

    Dustin (ba94b2)

  191. VA lol

    you’re better off going to chipotle

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  192. 192. =yawn= And I’m certain you’re hungry, Leon.

    Relax. Strawberries for desert, big fella.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  193. @194. Well, Perot was an indicator of things to come but of course he ran after the research ended an indy but clearly fit as a symptom. Wilkie was a lawyer before his business experience and classified as a litigator but was an early ‘tremor’ as well.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  194. poor little republicans

    they really thought they were ready

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  195. “And, it’s kind of funny, Leon, , then attempt to MAXIMIZE your federal tax subsidies. Pretty hypocritical.”

    I’m not following. Maybe I don’t understand employers “subsidies” when it comes to providing insurance for their employees, but it seems a stretch calling legal tax strategy a subsidy. I’m not even sure what you mean by “how you decry subsidies” based on that.

    Leon (168f33)

  196. @196- oh come on, that Tourette line was funny, and you’d admit it if you had an ounce of self awareness.

    Leon (168f33)

  197. Strawberries! Strawberries!
    Wanna be entertained!
    Waaa!

    Leon (168f33)

  198. Rubio was for amnesty before he was against it. Or maybe against amnesty before he was for it?

    Or maybe against amnesty before he was for it before he was against it.

    It was a serious flip flop, and people are right to criticize him for it.

    kishnevi (74d877)

  199. if you’d titled this post “I Hope Paul Ryan Fails” you’d be looking like your hopes had been realized today

    sitting back in your chair

    tie off

    collar unbuttoned maybe a button more than is strictly proper

    the barest hint of a devil may care grin playing across your insouciant visage

    casually swirling a scotch in your hand

    you would’ve been “he who nailed it”

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  200. rubio’s a smirky platform show wearing twat how is he relevant

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  201. The loyalty thing some folks just don’t get
    the ground once common they forget
    like leftwing they’re addled
    won’t chafe at teh saddle
    get rode hard put away when wet

    Colonel Haiku (8d00c4)

  202. He’s my senator. Relevant to me, if not to thee.

    kishnevi (74d877)

  203. oh.

    i like Florida their walmarts are always jumping with the sweet hum of commerce

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  204. And therein lays the problem: nobody has the balls to vote for something which “is ugly and (causes some) people (to) die.”

    Nope. You missed my point. ObamaCare is repeal is not what’s ugly and will cause people to die. Turning your back on the free market is.

    This is not an academic discussion. It’s real life. If you keep going down this path of ObamaCare/TrumpCare, people will die in droves. It’s no joke.

    Patterico (115b1f)

  205. if you’d titled this post “I Hope Paul Ryan Fails” you’d be looking like your hopes had been realized today

    sitting back in your chair

    tie off

    collar unbuttoned maybe a button more than is strictly proper

    the barest hint of a devil may care grin playing across your insouciant visage

    casually swirling a scotch in your hand

    you would’ve been “he who nailed it”

    Trump was 1000% behind TrumpCare, he said. He threatened lawmakers who said they wouldn’t vote for TrumpCare. TrumpCare has failed. Hallelujah.

    Now don’t give up. Cut Trump out of the equation and pass real repeal. He won’t dare veto it.

    Patterico (115b1f)

  206. In the short term, repeal will cause people to die in droves, too. It’ll just be different people.

    aphrael (e0cdc9)

  207. Yes kish, but he wasn’t given any credit for pushing amnesty, the bulk of Hispanics have Obama the benefit of the doubt in 2012, no credit to Maverick

    narciso (4d15c8)

  208. I don’t follow , perhaps if they reversed metal, then there might be some consequences.

    narciso (4d15c8)

  209. Ryan worked hand in glove with the White House on this, in his own words.

    Anyone who blames Ryan and exonerates Trump on this is deeply dishonest.

    Patterico (115b1f)

  210. In the short term, repeal will cause people to die in droves, too. It’ll just be different people.

    What’s your evidence for that? Because Medicaid is so awesome and people losing that would be devastating?

    Patterico (115b1f)

  211. Cut Trump out of the equation and pass real repeal. He won’t dare veto it.

    i’m with you but let’s pull over and get some corn nuts and a slushee for so we have some snacks on the way

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  212. What is there to blame either Ryan or Trump for? They did their best to show leadership, to put together something substantive, something better than the mess which is Obamacare now, but some cats just can’t be herded.

    nk (dbc370)

  213. The free market is not always the best remedy for health care, so to speak.

    God forbid it should happen in real life– but imagine one of your kids has a truly serious illness. You have the choice of the best doctor and hospital, with whom you can be reasonably sure of a positive outcome, for which you will have to pay the proverbial arm and leg– or a lesser doctor and facility, for which you will pay less, but also have less certainty in the outcome. Which one would you choose? How much would the cost factor into your decision?

    kishnevi (74d877)

  214. @ Kevin M, #184:

    Meanwhile the Democrats are spiking the ball. Wanna guess who won?

    We are all aware of who won. The Democrats won.

    And we are also all aware of who lost. That would be America, President Trump, and the House GOP.

    Who you and I don’t agree on is who was responsible.

    Demosthenes (09f714)

  215. Trump was 1000% behind TrumpCare, he said.

    He exaggerates.

    And Queeg insisted there was a key to the Wardroom icebox.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  216. This was Ryan’s fault and Trump’s failure to prioritize. It’s the beginning of th end of his speakership.

    Queeg let Ryan helm the Caine over the tow line because he doesn’t give a damn about healthcare. Only shirttails.

    If the GOP had any brains, they’d establish a task force, spend nine months crafting a real plan w/o half-assed A, B, C phases– which they should have been doing for 7 years BTW– and present it for the next Congress.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  217. @ nk, #216:

    What is there to blame either Ryan or Trump for? They did their best to show leadership, to put together something substantive…

    EXT. CLIFFTOP

    We see a BUS, perched precariously on the lip of a cliff. Its front is hanging over, and its back is elevating ever-so-slowly into the air.

    INT. BUS

    The passengers are sitting grim-faced, trying not to move and hasten their end. In the driver’s seat, his hands gripping the wheel, is BUS DRIVER DONNIE.

    Finally, one of the passengers speaks…

    HUMPHREY: You bastard, Donnie.

    BUS DRIVER DONNIE: Excuse me, excuse me? What did I do that was so bigly bad?

    HUMPHREY: Are you f&*%ing kidding me? You drove us here. You said we’d never regret letting you drive the bus, and now here we are.

    BUS DRIVER DONNIE: Okay, so let’s get a few things straight. First, do you see my hands on the wheel? My hands are huge. I mean, monstrous, gigantic hands that God himself would envy. No one who ever lived had hands like these, believe me on that. And number b, I promised you a cliffside view, and here we are.

    HUMPHREY: (too stunned to form a rational reply)

    BUS DRIVER DONNIE: You know, all I was trying to do was to show leadership, to put together a substantuive plan. I wanted to make our vacations great again.

    HUMPHREY: Then maybe you shouldn’t have been playing on Twitter during that last turn.

    BUS DRIVER DONNIE: (turns around) Okay, you son of a–

    EXT. CLIFF

    The undercarriage of the bus can no longer hold against the hard rock face. It gives way.

    OVERHEAD SHOT on the bus as it plunges into the abyss.

    Demosthenes (09f714)

  218. bq or plain

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  219. DCSCA

    spend nine months crafting a real plan

    ********

    Gosh too bad Obama didn’t take your advice when writing Obamacare.

    Rae Sremmurd (2fd998)

  220. Can’t make a silk purse out of hogs that care only about keeping their place in the public trough.

    nk (dbc370)

  221. I’m not following. Maybe I don’t understand employers “subsidies” when it comes to providing insurance for their employees, but it seems a stretch calling legal tax strategy a subsidy

    The subsidy is the government not taxing this compensation to the employee. I don’t see how you can NOT call it a subsidy when the government says “if you buy insurance for your workers, we’ll exclude it from income tax. They ALSO don’t tax (except for FICA) the portion the employee contributes. Another subsidy.

    In nearly all cases the federal subsidy for employer-purchased insurance is larger than the Obamacare tax credit, and it is not only NOT means-tested, but it is larger for better-paid workers.

    Kevin M (25bbee)

  222. The free market is not always the best remedy for health care, so to speak.

    God forbid it should happen in real life– but imagine one of your kids has a truly serious illness. You have the choice of the best doctor and hospital, with whom you can be reasonably sure of a positive outcome, for which you will have to pay the proverbial arm and leg– or a lesser doctor and facility, for which you will pay less, but also have less certainty in the outcome. Which one would you choose? How much would the cost factor into your decision?

    Then get insurance that covers it. Which, in a free market, you could do, if you were willing to pay for it.

    Not everyone in that situation will be able to afford that. Guess what? Not everyone can afford everything. Resources are scarce. It’s not me being mean to say that we can’t expend endless resources on every sick person. That’s reality.

    So how are we going to decide? Let politicians make the call? Or retain individual choice?

    Patterico (115b1f)

  223. Jeez< patterico, again with this free market.

    Not only have you not had a free market in medicine in your lifetime, but you, your children and your grandchildren will never see one. But keep on voting your fantasy votes.

    Kevin M (25bbee)

  224. @223. =yawn= It passed. Today’s turd passed into the throne and been flushed.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  225. Then get insurance that covers it. Which, in a free market, you could do, if you were willing to pay for it.

    No. You. Can’t.

    Back before the ACA, in what you laughingly refer to as a free market, if you were sick* and lost your insurance, there was a Prisoner’s Dilemma-driven situation where NO insurance company would cover you unless the government forced them to. Everyone cherry-picked.

    You could not buy insurance in a system where insurance rates for things are 10-20% of the posted cash rate, due to ubiquitous gaming of the system.

    ———
    * sick: having one or two treatable maladies that would cause the company known costs over a certain threshold. Things like high-blood pressure or asthma or an enlarged prostate. Their questionaire was quite instructive. They play it like “oh, you have lung cancer” but in fact, it was a lot more mundane than that. They didn’t care because all the money, and none of the risk, is in the group plans.

    Kevin M (25bbee)

  226. Remember when W lost on social security reform? With a Republican congress?

    I don’t remember W being blamed for the loss.

    Leon (168f33)

  227. I think that was built into the hmo bill, an early version to bend the cost curve down.

    narciso (4d15c8)

  228. Anyone who blames Ryan and exonerates Trump on this is deeply dishonest.

    Just as someone who cheers the HFC and bashes the Democrats for not negotiating is dishonest. BUt Trump knows that there are a LOT more Dems than there are house conservatives. What will pass will be Obamacare Less Lite.

    Kevin M (25bbee)

  229. But heck, let’s have a REALLY FREE MARKET.

    Not only do we repeal Obamacare, but we treat the (age-indexed) costs of group plans as taxable income. Better yet, we outlaw group plans and “let” everyone buy individual insurance with their after-tax income. Except for the sick people, who can go without.

    Kevin M (25bbee)

  230. I’m guessing we will end up with Canadian style single payer. Because that’s what the uniparty wants.

    Canadians pay about 70% tax rates BTW, just so you can anticipate your future with a little more clarity.

    Leon (168f33)

  231. which they should have been doing for 7 years BTW–

    ***************

    DCSCA

    Well you are also being too simple here.

    I’m sure just a relative few months ago you were here telling everyone that Hillary had a 99% chance of winning and that perhaps Dems would win the Senate, and even the House.

    Trump just won–and now the Republicans have to consider what he would sign off on and who he could persuade to vote for his plan.

    That’s why the Dems have been running with –Trump is a Russian Agent–Oh My!– so they could put as big a wrench in whatever he and other Republicans wanted–as much as possible.

    Rae Sremmurd (2fd998)

  232. I’m guessing we will end up with Canadian style single payer. Because that’s what the uniparty wants.

    That’s what Trump wants.

    TRUMP: “Everybody’s got to be covered. This is an un-Republican thing for me to say because a lot of times they say, ‘No, no, the lower 25 percent that can’t afford private. But—’”

    PELLEY: “Universal health care.”

    TRUMP: “I am going to take care of everybody. I don’t care if it costs me votes or not. Everybody’s going to be taken care of much better than they’re taken care of now.”

    PELLEY: “The uninsured person is going to be taken care of. How? How?”

    TRUMP: “They’re going to be taken care of. I would make a deal with existing hospitals to take care of people. And, you know what, if this is probably—”

    PELLEY: “Make a deal? Who pays for it?”

    TRUMP: —the government’s gonna pay for it.

    Patterico (115b1f)

  233. Not only do we repeal Obamacare, but we treat the (age-indexed) costs of group plans as taxable income. Better yet, we outlaw group plans and “let” everyone buy individual insurance with their after-tax income. Except for the sick people, who can go without.

    Outlawing group plans sounds like government distortion to me, not a free market. I think you and I have different ideas about what the free market means.

    Patterico (115b1f)

  234. You’re for centralized planning in many areas.

    Patterico (115b1f)

  235. @223. =yawn= It passed. Today’s turd passed into the throne and been flushed.
    DCSCA (797bc0) — 3/24/2017 @ 7:10 pm

    ************************

    ObamaCare passed in a Reconciliation process that smacked of illegitimacy–and your party has been paying for it ever since. Or do you not see that?

    What happened to the Stupak Ten (or whatever they were called) that Pelosi duped btw?

    (Just recently Howard Dean was claiming that there was absolutely no room in the party anymore for Pro-Life democrats.)

    Rae Sremmurd (2fd998)

  236. Canadians pay about 70% tax rates BTW

    The Marginal tax rates, federal and provincial combined top out at 53% on earned income over $200K. Capital gains are half of that. Since the payroll taxes are all done by that point, that’s the highest MARGINAL rate. If you spend ALL of your income over $200K on consumption, then you add another 15% in sales taxes. That gets you to about 70%, all right, but it’s HIGHLY misleading to say that anyone actually pays a rate like that, even on the margin. Maybe movie stars.

    Kevin M (25bbee)

  237. @235. It’s simply a fact. Ryan himself crowed over the past 24 hours they’ve been promising to ‘repeal and replace’ ObamaCare for seven and a half years.

    Just accept they’re lying screw ups. You’ll sleep better.

    If not, there’s a quart of strawberries waiting for you, too, in the wardroom icebox. Just use your own duplicate key.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  238. Well you don’t ban, but you incentivise individual plans, over group plans, govt has wrapped itself into our health plans like kudzu.

    narciso (4d15c8)

  239. Outlawing group plans sounds like government distortion to me, not a free market. I think you and I have different ideas about what the free market means.

    I’m afraid we do, since group plans — to the insurance company — are largely a risk-free pool. Employees are generally healthy people. I want a system where nobody gets cast into the outer darkness due to the thing insured against.

    Kevin M (25bbee)

  240. And, what part of “regulating interstate commerce” don’t you get?

    Kevin M (25bbee)

  241. Canadians have a provincial sales tax–on top of everything else that is shocking to most Americans when they bother to look it up.

    So I just looked it up.

    It’s called the Harmonized Sales Tax (HST)

    Just randomly picked New Brunswick as that was the first province that popped up.

    So here is a bit from their website:

    What is the Harmonized Sales Tax (HST)?
    On October 18th, 1996, the Government of New Brunswick and the Government of Canada signed the Comprehensive Integrated Tax Coordination Agreement (CITCA), which led to the implementation of the Harmonized Sales Tax. Effective April 1, 1997, New Brunswick harmonized its Provincial Sales Tax with the federal Goods and Services Tax to create a harmonized sales tax (HST).
    The HST is a value-added tax and is composed of the federal GST ( 5% ) and a provincial component of 10%. The HST is applied to the same base of goods and services as the federal GST base. This means the 15% HST is applied to all goods and services taxable under the federal Excise Tax Act.

    http://www2.gnb.ca/content/gnb/en/departments/finance/taxes/hst.html

    Now add to all of that –Canada doesn’t have the crime rate that we have and therefore does not have to provide emergency services for gang violence, and they probably do not have the same opioid crisis as we do.

    Someone mentioned that they spoke to some Quebecers who love their health care.

    Honestly if you are an American–there is no way they would be all that truthful to you because liberal Canadians have a huge inferiority complex when it comes to the United States–I don’t have time to get into it now.

    Anyways–Canadians also had the American system for Canadians that are better off –and that acted as a an escape valve for certain complaints about the system.

    Have to go but would like to add–

    flipping Norm MacDonald was on twitter telling people that he voted for Justin Trudeau–GAWD!

    Rae Sremmurd (2fd998)

  242. John Sexton: Venezuela is out of food, out of medicine, and running out of gas

    Eggheads declare from their ivory towers that the answer lies in their rejection of the free market.

    That’s all well and good for academic debate but THEY ARE OUT OF FOOD

    Patterico (115b1f)

  243. You’re for centralized planning in many areas.

    Oh, balls. I’m for a marketplace that treats EVERYONE alike. That does not mean that there is no regulation, just that the regulation needs to be neutral across the market. For example, would you think it a gross imposition to say “Companies that don’t pay as agreed can be sued for fraud”? It takes government to do that.

    The recent marketplaces allowed insurance companies to exclude whomever they wanted to exclude. Had it not been for regulations, even group plans would have had excluded people, such as diabetics.

    But there is no free market and there never will be one. I don’t have to favor gravity to know that it’s a force of nature and act accordingly.

    Kevin M (25bbee)

  244. I’m afraid we do, since group plans — to the insurance company — are largely a risk-free pool. Employees are generally healthy people.

    Who said anything about “employees”? I agree with your suggestion about eliminating the tax differential between employer-based plans and other plans, and I have said that for years. But why outlaw group action of any kind? That introduces a government distortion that is anything but free market in nature.

    I am for more group plans — credit unions, fraternal organizations, etc.

    Any voluntary action is good.

    Patterico (115b1f)

  245. rae–

    Different provinces have different PSTs. Some have none.

    Kevin M (25bbee)

  246. There’s also the problem of scale, the largest eu country has 1/6 our population, oh Canada has 1/10th.

    narciso (4d15c8)

  247. Kevin M,

    I believe in guaranteed renewal for people willing to pay for that. It’s wrong for insurance companies to take people’s money and then kick people off the second they get sick. And I think insurance companies are bandits and need courts and even the dreaded spectre of regulation to keep them in line.

    But understanding all that, I believe in individual choices. Oh my what a bad man I am.

    Patterico (115b1f)

  248. As a law clerk for a federal district judge, the most bullshit arguments I saw were regularly from insurance companies trying to deny claims.

    Patterico (115b1f)

  249. Patterico,

    A long time ago I had a group plan through an organization of self-employed people. For some reason this stopped being available in recent years (before the ACA).

    I would prefer that there was one national group. Everyone. Any insurance company could offer any plan it wanted, and might even adjust rates for local costs. But the POOL would be “anyone who wanted to join”.

    The question arises what to do with people without a previous insurer, and would require some government regulation (the government is a party here since it IS the insurer of the uninsured, one way or thee other). When the government is a party, it is a distortion to pretend it is not.

    Kevin M (25bbee)

  250. I came to the same conclusion from watching ESPN Patterico!

    Dejectedhead (fe2318)

  251. The question arises what to do with people without a previous insurer

    Well, it’s not that simple. If you have a pre-existing condition because there is a free market in health insurance and you declined to get even catastrophic coverage because you figured you would not get sick, it is not someone else’s job to make the insurance company cover you. That is not insurance. It’s welfare.

    Patterico (115b1f)

  252. Probably McCarran ferguson made every state a fiefdom, other regulations circumscribed what competitors could do

    narciso (4d15c8)

  253. Funny fact: capital gains taxes are lower in Canada than in California.

    Kevin M (25bbee)

  254. A long time ago I had a group plan through an organization of self-employed people. For some reason this stopped being available in recent years (before the ACA).

    It’s like life insurance: if you start buying young and pay your dues, they should not be able to just up and yank it from you because now you’re older. But they can use actuarial tables and factor in the risk/reward and set their rates accordingly.

    Or we can just have Republicans set some kind of arbitrary 30% penalty rather than leaving it to the people paid to figure out the numbers. Yay central planning! It always works great!

    Patterico (115b1f)

  255. Well, it’s not that simple. If you have a pre-existing condition because there is a free market in health insurance and you declined to get even catastrophic coverage because you figured you would not get sick, it is not someone else’s job to make the insurance company cover you. That is not insurance. It’s welfare.

    No it isn’t that simple. Nor is it as simple as you make it, either.

    Since we, as a nation, have decided that we won’t let people die on the street, government picks up the costs of the uninsured. Even the willfully uninsured. Change the mindset about this, and maybe you’ve got a point.

    Anyway, Obamacare handled this by putting all of these folks into a small pool that previously was occupied by the 5% of families who were self-employed. This more than doubled the size of the pool, and greatly distorted the health statistics. The bottom line was that the self-employed had to pay much more. Mean while the other 85% of the population ducked the direct burden.

    A much better idea is to drop this deadbeat group into the pool of “everyone”. Yes, it will bring the price up slightly, but not a lot, and in reality taxes were paying for their care before, so even that hit isn’t a real difference.

    And still, there has to be a cost. If you don’t want a mandate (I don’t), then you have to require a buy-in of some sort. Either a limited policy for a while or a more expensive policy for a while.

    And again the problem with excluding the “sick” is the definition of sick. Before the ACA the insurance companies definition was really quite broad.

    Kevin M (25bbee)

  256. Since we, as a nation, have decided that we won’t let people die on the street, government picks up the costs of the uninsured.

    Right at the outset there is a fallacy: that the only way society can deal with a problem is through government.

    There used to be charity care. Yes, government has broken that and many other norms. I’d like to think they could be rebuilt.

    Patterico (115b1f)

  257. So how are we going to decide? Let politicians make the call? Or retain individual choice?

    Patterico (115b1f) — 3/24/2017 @ 7:06 pm

    You missed my point: which is that when it comes to medical decisions, the financial cost is usually not as important a factor in the decision as it is in, say, going out for dinner to a restaurant: and the more important the medical issue, the less important the financial cost weighs into the decision. People will check out the cost of LASIK but not quadruple bypass…if they even have the chance to ask whichever hospital the paramedics brought them to​ after their heart attack, and had a choice of which EMT service answered the call in the first place.

    IOW, pricing and financial cost, the big mechanism of a free market, are not as influential in decision making as they are in anything like a real free market

    kishnevi (b2c7ae)

  258. If only the market could devise some way of addressing unforeseen risk in serious situations.

    Oh well I guess let politicians decide

    No I did not miss your point I disagree with your point and you missed mine.

    Yay for talking past each other

    Patterico (115b1f)

  259. Pass the repeal and replace in three easy pieces, YEAH, that’s the ticket! NOT!!!! I remember another deal that was done in only two easy pieces. Pass amnesty, and then we’ll build the wall! WAIT a minute, you say the wall was never built? Well shame on me for not believing this current load of a crap sandwich either! Sheesh, some of you definitely have long term memory loss. Never and I repeat NEVER EVER believe politicians when they promise if you support this now, we will not screw you over for the future promise!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    The “perfect” is not the enemy of the good, when the good is a dog turd that gets hung around your neck!

    Repeal the damn thing now, and then get the hell outa the way!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    Yoda jr (310909)

  260. Our esteemed host wrote:

    And therein lays the problem: nobody has the balls to vote for something which “is ugly and (causes some) people (to) die.”

    Nope. You missed my point. ObamaCare is repeal is not what’s ugly and will cause people to die. Turning your back on the free market is.

    This is not an academic discussion. It’s real life. If you keep going down this path of ObamaCare/TrumpCare, people will die in droves. It’s no joke.

    I accept your comment that I missed your point, because I cannot know what you had in mind. Nevertheless, real life means that, if you take away the government guaranteeing health care coverage, some people will suffer more and die earlier due to the lack. The free market is great for promoting competition and lowering prices, but the free market which allows many people to ‘win’ also allows some people to lose. Who else here has been as big an [insert slang term for the rectum here] as I have, in saying that people who cannot or will not pay for their own health care shouldn’t get it, even if it means that they die due to the lack?

    In real life, the free market means that some people cannot afford food or clothing or shelter, much less health care. I have no problem with people advocating a totally free market, but it behooves them to understand all of what that entails.

    The practical Dana (1b79fa)

  261. Our greatest Trumpelstiltskin, Mr Feet, wrote:

    if you’d titled this post “I Hope Paul Ryan Fails” you’d be looking like your hopes had been realized today

    sitting back in your chair

    tie off

    collar unbuttoned maybe a button more than is strictly proper

    the barest hint of a devil may care grin playing across your insouciant visage

    casually swirling a scotch in your hand

    you would’ve been “he who nailed it”

    Oddly enough, I never noticed the Republicans calling the ACA “Pelosicare.” It was President Obama who got “credit” for the ACA, and the Republicans who campaigned through four straight elections against “Obamacare.”

    ‘Twas our 45th President who supported the AHCA full bore, our 45th President who sold himself as a great dealmaker, and our 45th President who said, straight out, that if we don’t pass the AHCA, we’re stuck with Obysmalcare, but your don’t think he bears any responsibility for its failure?

    Had our 45th President chosen to present his own plan, the one which would have taken care of “everybody,” who knows, maybe it would have passed, but, despite his promises, he failed to do that.

    The Dana who voted for Gary Johnson (1b79fa)

  262. Our nineteenth century host wrote:

    Since we, as a nation, have decided that we won’t let people die on the street, government picks up the costs of the uninsured.

    Right at the outset there is a fallacy: that the only way society can deal with a problem is through government.

    There used to be charity care. Yes, government has broken that and many other norms. I’d like to think they could be rebuilt.

    I’d like to think that, too, but think about the charity care system. The largest single provider of charity health care was the Catholic hospital system, but our bold barristers (Henry VI, Part II, Act IV, Scene II) have trashed that, by imposing all sorts of regulations on Catholic hospitals and other services to require them to support some very unCatholic things.

    And let’s face it: Catholic health care simply isn’t everywhere. If you happen to be the unfortunate victim of a gang shooting in foul, fetid, fuming, foggy, filthy Philadelphia, the ambulance is going to take you to Temple University Hospital, not Mercy in southwest Philly. That means that the government is going to take care of you, not the Catholic charities. The poor in my small community aren’t going to have access to charity care.

    The Catholic hospitals are some pretty high-tech places these days, because the high costs of our current health care system — even before 2010 — helped buy the MRI and CT scan machines, but they are very strained to provide charity care, and many have closed their emergency rooms because they couldn’t bear the costs.

    Can the charity care system be rebuilt? Well, first we’d need a lot more Catholics, and other ‘mainline’ Protestant churches, and our societal preference for agnosticism would have to end. But even with that, we’d need to recognize that the charity care system existed to a greater extent at a time when medical care was less technical, when cancer was a death sentence and organ transplants unheard of. It’s less a problem of unringing the bell of government-provided care than it is of turning back the clock to a simpler time.

    The Dana who'd have liked the 16th Century (1b79fa)

  263. A great thing about some folks is they don’t even pretend that they’re not full of sh*t. It doesn’t have to be all of this and nothing of that.

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  264. Like I said on the other thread, Trump is a disappointment only to the gullible. As far as I’m concerned, he’s exceeding my expectations. But it’s only been 65 days. Watch your wallets and try not to show any gold teeth you might have.

    the nk glad the kushners haven't stolen his wallet yet (dbc370)

  265. They don’t have the power to raise bar association dues do they.

    narciso (e1024d)

  266. I accept your comment that I missed your point, because I cannot know what you had in mind. Nevertheless, real life means that, if you take away the government guaranteeing health care coverage, some people will suffer more and die earlier due to the lack. The free market is great for promoting competition and lowering prices, but the free market which allows many people to ‘win’ also allows some people to lose.

    But when government gets involved, everybody wins! Because limited resources suddenly became plentiful for all citizens in our socialist utopia!

    Never mind that studies show outcomes are worse under Medicaid than they are for the uninsured. Pay no attention to those pesky findings. Just keep repeating lefty talking points about how the market can’t work here. That’s the ticket.

    Patterico (115b1f)

  267. Like I said, they’ve got 1,396 more days to go.

    nk (dbc370)

  268. If the free market cannot allocate limited resources such that all wants are satisfied (even though the reality of limited resources means “all wants” can never be satisfied) then the market has failed and we need government to decree that from now on resources shall be unlimited. If they say it, that makes it so, citizen.

    Patterico (115b1f)

  269. What you say is true Comrade Patterico which is why things are so great here in the People’s Republic of Venezuela. (wink)

    Rev. Hoagie® (785e38)

  270. There is a silver lining for those whose skies are gray. There will be another bite at this apple. I think Ryan and Trump have learned they have more to fear from conservative hard liners in their own party than anyone else. That, to me, is a fine thing. They haven’t died on a hill quite yet, but perhaps they’ve learned a valuable lesson. Plus, the notion that this had to be a done deal in the first 200 days of Trump’s Presidency was a predictor of either failure or an assurance of another healthcare “reform” rushed, not completely understood by those casting the votes, and most certainly not the “reform” promised.

    The truth is, government cannot reform health care, that’ll be up to a free market. And no, that concept is not empty rhetoric pedaled by academics disconnected from reality. I ask this: when did the cost curve begin to steepen, in healthcare. Or universities for that matter? When the medical/insurance complex was divorced from customer choice based on efficiency, need and return on investment.

    And to anyone arguing that it is a bad thing that insurers are only in it for the profit, you may be correct. But so is every other American corporation. Do they always do the right thing when chasing the dollar? I won’t argue that they do. But does the free market work? You bet it does. The old adage is as true as ever: build a better mousetrap… Competition is the real key: let Pharma, insurance, health care be exposed to the pressures of that free market, and watch the desert bloom.

    Will it be done overnight? Nope. But the current system has been in the making since group coverage was introduced, in part, by labor unions 60+ years ago. It’s going to take an iterative process to get to where health care in general should and needs to be.

    Estarcarus (cd97e1)

  271. Our host’s hope has been realized. Now we are stuck with Obamacare.

    Yea host!

    Leon (168f33)

  272. 147. 149. 156.

    SF: (about sngle payer) “Such a system would work well for about 5 to 8 years – then you get into the centrally directed cost cutting.”

    The realistic Dana (1b79fa) — 3/24/2017 @ 3:48 pm

    We have a single-payer system in place, in the Veterans’ Administration hospitals, and we were shocked, shocked! when they were doing just that.

    But when the VA hospital system was first started, did it work badly?

    Of course that was just a small part of a much bigger medical system, and starting the VA was comparble to starting a school or school system, which is never very bad the first year, or else it will never get off the ground and be used.

    Believe me, I see single-payer as a lousy system, one which will leave Americans with poorer, drawn-out care,

    But not the first year. Or the second year. Or the third year. Nationwide single payer (with optional use of other doctors) would be to take the status quo, but change all the incentives. It would gradually deteriorate, and it would fail to take account of new things that happened.

    but I also see it as the only logical way to provide “universal” health care coverage.

    I think, though, universal affordable health care can be possible, but it just can’t be described or outlined in a paragraph or two, but requires a full sheet of looseleaf paper or two.

    It is is complicated, and I’ve thought about it. People can be given money, but in some way that is limited, and we can have catastropic insurance and also a way for everyone to fill the gap between the money eveeryone has and the catastrophic coverage.

    For competition as to both price and quality to work:

    It’s enough if 30% or 40% of the payments are made by the user, and this maybe could be gotten up to 70% or more. It doesn’t have to be everything that certain people use is paid for by them – it can average out to 30% to 70% for any particular thing done. Of course it is important for people to know the price in advance, and not be charged the most if they haven’t prepaid through insurance and have the ability to switch doctors and hospitals which is also needed for quality.

    And it’s enough if 30% or so of the purchasing is done by people who can distinguish good quality from bad. Everyone can do that to some degree, just by seeing whether the prognosis is described accurately. At least that’s one element of quality.

    Sammy Finkelman (bd89d5)

  273. More from The realistic Dana

    Sachi ab Hugh wrote about her father’s treatment under Japan’s single-payer system, and he got great care . . . because he also had three private insurance policies, and his family had ‘connections.’

    You’re talking about this, from your First Street Journal blog, maybe?

    €urosclerosis, part 3: Greece and its collapsing health care system

    Posted by Editor on 12 November 2011, 10:33 am

    You can read it with some words highlighted on this Google cache:

    http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:IP2sKpLKUZAJ:http://www.journal14.com/2011/11/12/eurosclerosis-part-3-greece-and-its-collapsing-health-care-system/%2BSachi+ab+Hugh+father++medical&hl=en&gbv=2&ct=clnk

    Direct link: http://www.journal14.com/2011/11/12/eurosclerosis-part-3-greece-and-its-collapsing-health-care-system.

    Those dependent just upon single-payer, not so much.

    For another patient Sachi ab Hugh heard about, the hosital did not even turn on the air conditioning! That’s almost criminal, although you can also put on air conditioning when you don’t need it and make the room too cold, and I think that happened with my father at NYU Medical Center in November 1998, while sleeping in a flimsy hospital issued garmenbt, and he got infections and he never got out of the hospital. (it is simply not true that cold does not cause, or better maybe, permit, infections)

    In Japan, they also cut costs by not emptying bedpans quickly. It’s not as if they would lose customers I guess if they did things that way..

    Rush Limbaugh, I think, has pointed out that if rich people were not able to buy better care, people with connections could still do so. There will always be people able to obtain better treatment, and if you were somehow to stop wealthy people from doing that, there would just fewer people in that category, but there would still be people in that category. Just fewer of them.

    It is not just single payer that damages health care, but any form of third party payment where attempts are made to control costs, although that can be much worse in the case of single payer.

    That is, it is insurance itself that is the problem. We see that with auto repair costs also.

    Sammy Finkelman (bd89d5)

  274. Dustin (ba94b2) — 3/24/2017 @ 12:40 pm

    In my ideal, I would self insure and pay a low premium for catastrophes.

    It might not be so low. We’ve reached the point where you pay a high for catastrophic insurance and that’s the kind of policies Obamacare results in.

    People in the government, who make aminimum of about $150,000 a year or so, don’t seem to realize this is a problem.

    They actually think people will pay a lot for what amounts to catastrophic insurance. They actually won’t pay very much out of pocket for that. Not with a mandate and not with dedicated tax credits that cover only 30% to 50% of the cost.

    One way to get out of this is for the goverrnment to take care of a lot of catastrophic costs, at least for pre-existing conditions, where they are not properly described as insurance.

    Sammy Finkelman (bd89d5)

  275. high PRCE for catastriphic insurance.

    Dustin, contontinuing, I would be happy to get checkups on my own dime, Checkups maybe yes, but this is not a good idea for emergency or unscheduled visits.

    By the way, doctors wouldn’t be very happy with that (people paying on their own dime for checkups) because they’ll have a lot fewer customers, at least until they switch to a conceirge (annual fee) practice with no more visits per patient than truly necessary. They can then handle more patients. Of course some doctros and medical practices will then have many fewer customers, but that is the “creative destruction” of the free market.

    There’s no way to cut medical costs without doctors, hospitals, some kind of medical providers losing out.

    As a caveat, about insurance or the government not paying for scheduled visits, but only for unscheduled ones, there is an idea that a person should have a regular doctor so they’ll have some place to go, with some doctor or medical practice that knows their history.

    and have my weight and other health factors determine my price.

    You could have the number of visits or the length of the visit determine the price. But doctors, unlike lawyers, do not yet bill by the minute or the hour, and that probably would not be a good thing. Maybe patients could be put in tranches.

    To central planners, this reduces my capacity to have wealth transferred from me for use in getting votes, because the whole system is just completely tilted to the most desperate partisan politics point.

    What they do to get votes is constantly try to prove that they are better than the other party, and that the other party is horrible. They don’t need to transfer wealth or not transfer wealth. More details are needed only to get contributions.

    That’s why the GOP appears to be paralyzed. They can’t really out-left the left, but they want to try buying some votes instead of just taking this opportunity to run the country so well that we see the light. It’s a fundamental lack of confidence in conservatism, and I think that battle was lost in the primary.

    A Quinnipiac poll just came out this week that showed that 85% of those surveyed agreed that it was very important to them that health insurance be afforable for all Americans, and 13% said it was “Somewhat important.” Only 1% said it was “Not So Important” and another 1% said it was “Not Important at all.” That’s 98% for something besides an all out free market (that would, for one thing, not insure pre-existing conditions)

    Now by health insurance understand “health care”

    Sammy Finkelman (bd89d5)

  276. kishnevi (b2c7ae) — 3/24/2017 @ 8:51 pm

    People will check out the cost of LASIK but not quadruple bypass…if they even have the chance to ask whichever hospital the paramedics brought them to​ after their heart attack,

    Quadruple bypass is actually usually elective surgery, but people stick with the doctors they know and/pr recommended it, and in any case want the surgeons with the best safety record.

    There is another issue however. It’s one thing to get the service done, it’s another to pay the bill. This is often negotiated.

    By the way, the free market doesn’t always reduce costs. Not everything is like Lasix. Take the case of dentistry. It’s one of those businesses where competition does not really drive the price down. Tghis probably is caused by medical licensing, plus the profession has control of dental education and the standard of practice, is often to do things to raise costs or to commit people to paying for the whole thing – they start off by doing some damage quickly, then have people dforced to continue. Root canal is like home repair.

    and had a choice of which EMT service answered the call in the first place.

    IOW, pricing and financial cost, the big mechanism of a free market, are not as influential in decision making as they are in anything like a real free market

    Sammy Finkelman (bd89d5)

  277. You know what Donald Trump and others need to do if they want to get any kind of legislation passed?

    They have split off some Democrats – guarantee not to oppose their re-election if they vote for some bills – maybe raise money for their campaigns, and probably even have them set up a separate caucus and then put some of them on committees, like what happened in the New York State Senate.

    https://www.nytimes.com/2016/11/08/nyregion/breakaway-group-in-new-york-senate-becomes-an-island-of-power.html

    Maybe the threat of it can persuade Democaratic leaders not to impose party discipline

    Of course they could run into some trouble becase they’d be dealing with the evil Donald Trump, and he even actually is evil in some respects, but they’ve got to overcome it.

    http://gothamist.com/2017/02/07/idc_albany_trump_trouble.php

    https://www.nytimes.com/2017/02/06/nyregion/new-york-independent-democrats.html?rref=collection%2Fsectioncollection%2Fnyregion

    These Independent Democats are not Republicans. They’re actually not even conservative most of them.

    Sammy Finkelman (bd89d5)

  278. 283..Ding, Ding and more Ding. But in a way it’s a silver lining, because who knows how high the price of support would have been from each possible bloc.

    urbanleftbehind (847a06)

  279. How do you REALLY repeal Obamacare? You need the democrats and the republicans to work together on a bi-partisan solution.

    Nnnnnope. You keep the Democrats out of it, and give political power to the conservatives. Remember all that Alinsky stuff? Great. Use ridicule against the people who are throwing up the roadblocks.

    Speaking of which, here I am SIDING WITH THE ENEMY AGAIN by mocking the populist big-government non-conservative who just pushed real conservatives to pass a shit non-repeal and now will turn to an infrastructure boondoggle.

    Hahahahahahahaha

    Patterico (115b1f)


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